February 5, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode of the Big Careers, Small Children podcast, Verena Hefti MBE speaks with Heather Black, Founder and CEO of Supermums. Heather is passionate about helping parents build flexible, fulfilling, and well-paid careers after parenthood.
She shares her own journey of transitioning into tech, how she launched Supermums to support others, and why upskilling can be a game-changer for working parents looking for more career flexibility.
Together, they explore:
- How Heather transitioned into tech and why she believes more parents should consider it.
- The value of upskilling and how it can open doors to new career opportunities.
- Practical steps for navigating a career change and building confidence in a new sector.
- How to choose the right employer and avoid toxic workplace cultures.
- The hidden job market and how networking can help land the right role.
We hope you enjoy the episode!
About Heather Black
Heather Black is the founder and CEO of Supermums. She is the mum of two little girls and lives by the sea in East Sussex whilst working remotely. She helps parents to achieve flexible well-paid careers after parenthood and has supported 1000 trainees globally to successfully relaunch their careers. In 2010 she became an accidental Salesforce admin for her non-profit and loved it so much that she decided to upskill as a Salesforce Consultant in 2012 helping other non-profits to implement a CRM. She realised her career path could work for other mothers so she launched Supermums in 2016 to bring more women into the sector. Find out more about what a Salesforce Career can offer you here https://supermums.org/what-is-a-salesforce-career/
Show Notes:
- Learn more about Supermums: Supermums.org
- Follow Supermums on social media: LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram
- Connect with Heather Black: LinkedIn
- Learn more about the Leaders Plus: Big Careers, Small Children podcast and explore additional resources at leadersplus.org.
- Follow Leaders Plus on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Bluesky.
- Connect with our CEO, Verena Hefti MBE on LinkedIn.
- Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
Our multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowships support parents committed to career growth while enjoying family life. Expertly designed to keep parents on the leadership path, our programme tackles gender pay gap issues and empowers parents to thrive. Learn more here: Leaders Plus
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
the same stale, often malemiddle class people leading our organizations.
We must change this together.And I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast, I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back. Together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family and and
you are supported by peoplewho are experiencing what you're
experiencing yourself. I'mreally delighted that a larger majority
(01:54):
of our fellows have madetangible changes following the program,
be that becoming more seniorin their roles, working shorter hours,
having better flexible workingarrangement. They always impress
me so much with the couragethat they instill in each other to
do what is right for themwithout apologizing for having family
or apologizing for wantingthat top job. Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship.
(02:23):
Today I'm chatting to HeatherBlack. We talk about her story of
changing sectors and what sheadvises others who are thinking about
changing sectors. We chatabout how she set up Supermums, what
it's like to be a CEO who withchildren. And of course we also chat
(02:44):
about why she's such a bigadvocate for women in tech and she's
basically trying to convinceall of us to move into the tech sector
today. But she does so in areally passionate way. So I really
hope you enjoy the conversation.
Thank you very much for havingme. So I'm Heather Black. I'm the
CEO and founder of Supermums.I transitioned my career into tech
(03:08):
back in 2012 and realized thatother mums could do the same. And
so that led me to set upSupermums eight years ago to help
raise awareness of careers inthe tech sector. And since then,
We've helped over 1,500 peopleupskill in Salesforce technology.
So really love talking toparents, helping parents carve out
(03:28):
a life that gives them thatflexibility, but also enjoy the time
that they can have with theirkids, but also have a career that
they really love as well.
And what did you used tobelieve about combining a big career
with young children thatyou've changed your mind on?
I've always been ambitious,and I talk about the ambitious women
mindset because I think it'sabsolutely fine as a parent to feel
like you can still have acareer and still have those ambitions,
(03:51):
but it's about how to managethat, making sure that you manage
your boundaries, you manageyour mental health, you manage that
balance between having acareer and also feeling happy with
the time that you spend withthe kids. Now, that ratio looks different
for everybody, right?Everybody wants a different, perhaps,
balance ratio of what you do,how many hours you work versus what
(04:14):
you do with your kids. Youknow, it's about knowing what's right
for you and feelingcomfortable in that zone. So I transitioned
my career actually, just aswas having kids. And so I was able
to carve out a much betterbalance for myself through taking
a new career path when I wasstarting the journey of having children.
(04:35):
That's really interesting.What have you learned about changing
sectors?
I realized that I had relevanttransferable skills. So my background
was business and careercoaching. And I'd run a business
and career coaching companyfor eight years before I realized,
you know, I had to take thosesteps to pivot. And so I did some
(04:58):
research into what some of thecareer options could be. I had used
Salesforce CRM, which is aclient relationship management system
tool, within my coachingcompany. And it's something I'd really
enjoyed getting to grips with.It really helped me grow the company
and found a techy side of methat I never knew I had before. And
(05:21):
it wasn't about coding, but itwas about building a system that
could support a business andreally help it perform. And I kind
of really enjoyed learningabout that. So I decided that was
one of the areas to researchand spoke to people who worked with
Salesforce, what their jobroles contained, what they did on
a day to day basis. Iunderstood what training and qualifications
(05:43):
I would need to do to workmore in that sector. And having had
a business coachingbackground, I realised actually a
lot of the business coachingskills were very relevant in the
CRM implementation journeybecause it's all about helping an
organization understand theirprocesses, understand their KPIs,
(06:03):
help them manage thingsbetter. And that's very, actually
very lined with businesscoaching. You're asking the same
questions and uncovering thesame answers, but at the end of it
you're putting in a technologyproduct that's going to manage everything
for them. So there's a verygood sort of tangible outcome off
it. So I think it's just aboutdoing the research, talking to people.
(06:27):
And from that, as a sort ofreflection, back to your original
question. I realized actuallyI had a lot of transferable skills
that gave me the confidence totake that leap to move over.
You then started, I mean youdidn't just transition to the tech
sector, you also started abusiness which is now very successful
in tech. How did that happen?
(06:48):
I started out as a freelancesalesforce consultant. So I was helping
non organizations implementSalesforce and you know, that was
the path that I'd taken. Ilearned the skills of how to implement
Salesforce, went intononprofits, helped them implement
a CRM, to manage theirdonations, their volunteering, their
fundraising. And I was doingthat three days a week whilst having
(07:12):
a newborn at home who I wasbreastfeeding. So I was able to work
virtually earn 450 pound dayrates, have some lovely clients that
I was working with and I wasable to generate a salary of 60,
70k in the first year working3 days a week. So I was earning more
than in my previous job. I wasable to have all that flexibility
(07:33):
to just work remotely. And itjust grew from there really. I won
more client work, I got a lotmore repeat and recommendation work.
And after a couple of years Ifound that I was actually having
more work than I could managemyself. So then I had to make that
decision of well, what do Ido? Do I just turn it away or do
(07:54):
I grow a team? And previously,having run a business, I kind of
missed having a team. So Ithought, well, okay, I'll grow a
team. So I brought otherpeople on board, you know, and the
idea was it would be acollective and they would take projects
and we'd build the teamtogether. And so I grew that organization
to a team of actually 20 of usin the End delivering work for nonprofits.
(08:15):
But off the back of thatrecognized that there was a, a demand
for talent. Like actuallyhiring people to work with me was
actually quite hard to findthe people. So that's where Super
Mums was born. Because Iwanted to bring more women into this
sector in this job opportunityand make them aware of it and train
them up to be great salesforceconsultants. And some of those came
(08:38):
on to work with me as a team.Others, you know, gone on to work
in other companies. So that'skind of how Supermums began. Just
kind of naturally evolved.
Just go back to the picture ofyou breastfeeding a newborn and working
at the same time. I know a lotof people do it, but how did you
make it work? You know, a lotof people are forced to do that,
(09:00):
but I have done it myself andit is really tough, or at least I
found it tough. It's not easyto work with a newborn. I think I
had my first work relatedconversation when my baby was two
weeks old. It's not the end ofthe world, but yeah, slightly different
from what I was expecting. Howdid you make it work?
(09:21):
I had the six weeks off whereI wasn't working, which is the full
pay maternity leave. Butfinancially it wasn't an option for
me. I had to maintain workingbeyond that. So I would work three
days a week, but because thebaby's in the next room every time
it wanted feeding, typically,you know, actually I appreciate every
baby is different. But Lucywas pretty routine, right? It was
(09:44):
pretty much every three orfour hours that she'd want a feed.
So, you know, I could beworking in here and then I, you know,
arrange my calls around wherethe typical feeding times were. And
again, every baby isdifferent. So I appreciate it. But
we kind of had. It was certaintimes that she generally had a feed.
So I was able to put meetingsin around that and she'd be looked
(10:07):
after in the room next door byeither my husband or the grandma.
And so, you know, we were ableto juggle like that. And then on
the other, you know, I wasworking three days obviously and
I had the rest of the days,the other four days where I was with
the baby. And so it worked outwell. And she actually wouldn't take
any breast milk for a year. SoI had to be, I had to be like close
(10:29):
to her for like a year to feedher. She was not taking the bottle.
That is so tough. And I don'tmind, didn't take the bottle either.
And I still regret to this dayof somehow not making it and somehow
not getting them to do it. Ithink one of them only drank from
me until he was two and thenthey just wouldn't drink anything
all day in nursery and thenjust every hour or every two hours.
(10:52):
But yeah, I got through it.
It's hard, isn't it? And thething is in some ways it's lovely
to be able to feed them. Likein some ways you've got to cherish
that, that we were able to dothat. And there's a level of bonding
with them. But yeah, there's alevel that you'll go to to try to
get them to take the bottle.And like you say she was stubborn,
like she would not haveanything for like seven, eight hours.
(11:12):
And then you're like, okay,this is like serious. My second child
was fine with the bottle.Right. You know, she loves her food
now she's a different kettleof fish. So, you know, I think you
don't know what cards you'regoing to be dealt. It's not like
you can order a certain recipeout of the machine, unfortunately.
But I'm very thankful to havehad a career at home that was flexible
(11:33):
for me, that I could choosewhen I had meetings and I could juggle
my hours. I could work in theevening if I needed to because actually
a lot of the work I could doon my own time. As a self employed
salesforce consultant, therewas nobody watching my clock that
I was working nine till five,you know, I was able to work the
days or weeks that work forme, you know, and I could flex that.
(11:56):
So all of these opportunitiesled me to think actually, you know,
other mums could do this andit's something they need to know
about.
I wonder how much time. So Iknow that you have an agenda which
is you do want more women tomove to tech sector. But I'm just
wondering for the peoplelistening who are thinking, actually
(12:18):
this sounds interesting. Howmuch time do you have to invest to
train to be able to just as anexample, to do that salesforce. I
know there are other tech jobsbut to do that salesforce consultant
work.
Yeah. So I designed thetraining program at Supermums to
be very comprehensive androbust to give people the confidence
they need to upskill. I hadtrained and obviously I didn't have
(12:42):
supermums or I trained. So Itrained on a. I did a suite of three
weeks of training courses withsalesforce at the time but they were
very expensive, they were overin stain. So you had to go and be
in their office for a week.Each time one of those I had a lot
of morning sickness whichwasn't particularly enjoyable, you
know. And I say there werethree and a half grand a pop what
(13:03):
you would pay for the courses.So there were a lot of money. So
I designed the Supermumsprogram to be completely virtual
and it's 16 hours a week overa three month period. And you really
not only learn the skills butyou apply them and do some practical
case studies and you have aone to one mentor that works with
you as once you've done thethree months of training which you're
(13:25):
juggling around other thingsyou would do your certification.
And then we also give peoplework experience at Supermums where
they can get their hands dirtywith the product and they'll deliver
some deliverables for aclient. And so everything reinforces
your learning. It's like thatmemory muscle, you know, you keep
learning, keep practicing andfeel confident that when you go for
(13:46):
the job opportunity you'vepracticed it over and over again
and you've had somebodylooking at what you've done and giving
you a pat on the back andreinforcing your learning. And I
think that's really importantif people have never worked in tech
or have been out of work forquite a few years, you know, so it
isn't, I believe if you justdo a week training course you're
not really ready. You know,it's about practicing and feeling
confident when you go for thatjob interview and for hitting the
(14:08):
ground running in a job. Sotypically that can be, it's a six
month program where you've gotthe training certification, work
experience as I feel is likethe proper ramp period that.
Almost sounds too good to betrue to get a 60/ 70,000 salary for
just three weeks training.
(18:33):
So I had obviously usedSalesforce before and so I was earning
450 day rates because I hadinvested in training. So I had also
invested in business analysistraining, Agile project management
training. And so I was, youknow, I'd spent 11 grand on my training,
hence why I could charge £450day rates. So it's relative to what
(18:55):
you invest in your training ofwhat you're going to get out of it.
So the super mums that startwith us pay two and a half grand
for their course but theywould start on a day rate of maybe
300 a day or salaries of40,000. But then you can quickly
incremental increase fromthere because you will continue,
you have to continue to investin your training. But if you were
(19:18):
to say invest in a course,that's two grand and you're earning
minimum 200 day rates. Right.If we're looking at the minimum,
you paid off that course in 10days. So it's all about, I'm going
to invest in this, butactually this is the financial return
I'm going to get. And that'show I saw it. I was like, I'm going
to invest 11,000 pounds, whichwasn't all in one go. This was over,
(19:38):
you know, my period of growingmyself as a consultant. You know,
I built up and I continued toincrease my day rate because I was
investing in my training. Thatwould give me more skills and allow
me to charge more and kind ofhave more confidence in myself. But
that's a tangible trade off.Right. It's about any career, investing
in training to upskillyourself in order to earn it back.
(20:02):
I think that's very true, actually.
It was quite funny, actually.
Now when I think about theLeaders Plus Fellowship, which if
you're in a charity is aroundabout 3,001 around about 4,000 for
someone employed. Usuallyemployers pay the fee, but obviously.
In order to run somethingquite high.
Impact, you know, it has to befunded. But it is. Now you're thinking,
(20:22):
well, I think the usual payrise is about on average, I think
with the last quarter was 11%,which included a lot of public sector
workers before the uplift. So,yeah, I haven't actually thought
about it this way, but you'reabsolutely right. If you choose the
right training, it can havethe impact on the salary. Interesting.
Also, by the way, there's somestats that apparently the impact
(20:43):
of training for men on salaryis higher on average than for women.
I can't remember where, whichis unhelpful, so I won't be able
to include it in the shownotes, but I think it might have
been an article in cipd.
Anyways, I'll stop going offon tangents.
Because women don't sellthemselves. They don't sell, you
know, that's our biggestbarrier. Right. We don't necessarily
sell ourselves as well as menor feel shy to say that, which is
(21:06):
maybe why we don't get the pay rises.
Yeah, I don't know. I thinkthere's also something about being
socialized not to do itbecause there are different expectations
of behaviors on women.
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
So, yeah, I think it's acomplex one. You're also an advocate
for people, you know, havingexciting careers after children and
(21:26):
I'm interested. Just a commonquestion is how do I explain a career
break.
How do I explain that I have.
Just had three maternityleaves in succession? What is your
response to that? How wouldyou sell that to an employer?
I've been producing nextgeneration of talent.
Fair enough of tech talent,probably, given how much they all
(21:48):
are on iPads.
Exactly. You know the world'sgoing to stop unless we keep producing,
right? Very important job.
I agree. I fully agree.However, sadly, I'm not sure that
every hiring manager alwayshas that at the forefront. So do
you have any reflections aboutwhat to say we have to sell.
(22:09):
Ourselves again, it goes backto selling out rather than see it.
Because the thing is, if ourperception is it's a negative thing
and we have that perception,it's going to be a barrier. It will
be that barrier and it will bethat negative thing. So it starts
with us. It starts. How aboutwe promote it? As I say, we can actively
say in our cv, very importantcareer break to produce next generation
(22:31):
of talent. You know, duringthis time I did xyz, you know, and
I'm very much looking forwardto getting back in the driving seat
with my career. You know, it'sabout how you proposition it. I think
if we turn up to everythingwith a level of fear that it's going
to be negatively seen. It willbe like that. But we've got to remember
that it's not just women thatwill have breaks. Men will have breaks
(22:53):
for different things. Youmight have to look after a carer,
you know, be a carer forsomebody in your family. You know,
there's lots of reasons whypeople will have breaks and we have
to proposition it as this iswhat we've done during this time.
Almost be proud of what you'vedone during that time. And what I
(23:13):
think is important, going backto the upskilling piece though, on
this, is that one of thebiggest reasons why people might
be concerned is like, oh,well, their skills aren't up to date,
they're not got the latestskill sets. So for people that have
done our training program atSuperman's, for example, they are
going to have actually thelatest training and latest skill
set up to date to hit theground running in a job. That's why
(23:34):
people invest in theirtraining. So I think if you've had
a career break and you'retrying to break into an industry
where you may be behind onyour skill sets, I think it's a harder
expectation to ask theemployer. I'm not saying they shouldn't
by any means, but obviously ifthey've got a suite of CVs and they've
got people that have got morerelevant experience using latest
products or whatever, they'regoing to come on top, whatever. Whereas
(23:58):
if you've invested in trainingand skills in the latest industry
that you're working in, it'sobviously going to put you on an
equal footing. And sometimeswhat I say to our super mums is that
if you're currently out ofwork, you've actually got the opportunity
to upskill in products thatquite often, if people are working,
they don't have the timesometimes to upskill in.
(24:19):
Some of the latest products.
So you could create yourselfas a unicorn. So in the Salesforce
industry, they've just had anew product called Agent Force come
out. A lot of people would belike, oh, I really want to learn
that. But they're so busyworking their day job that they don't
have time. Whereas those thatare training up now can become the
experts in Agent Force andthen be landing these new job roles
(24:40):
that are coming out. So it'sabout being ahead of the curve. It's
about. Tech is changing veryquickly and rapidly. It's about positioning
yourself with the most indemand skills that are needed by
employers. And that's whereyou've got to do your research to
know where do you invest yourtime right now? So I think it's about
showing what you've done inthat time. We've certainly had people
(25:01):
train up during theirmaternity leave, for example. You
know, is there a demonstrationof that?
Interesting. And when youthink about, you know.
The whole idea, yes, I should upskill.
Myself, yes, I should be ontop of the industry trends. Those
are important ideas. But wheredo you find out what you know outside
of Salesforce, which is justone out of many applications, where
(25:25):
do you find out what the hottopics are or the opportunities?
So LinkedIn does a reviewevery year about the most in demand
employer skills. So those atthe last count were cloud computing,
business analysis, emotionalintelligence, AI business analysis.
Interesting enough. Soeverything that covers, you know,
(25:45):
that's not just specific to,it's very specific to Salesforce,
but also very relevant toother sectors and tech industry because
it's all about tech. You know,if you go into a shop these days,
there's nobody on the cashiersanymore. Those jobs are going, they're
being replaced by technology.So whether we like it or not, the
world is changing to a worldwhere everything is becoming more
(26:07):
focused on technology. SoLinkedIn, you know, have reports,
there'll be other job sitesthat will have reports, you know,
doing a Google Search, asking,chat gpt, you know, or similar. What
are the most in demandtechnologies right now? Where are
the skills gaps? Just do yourresearch as to where things are coming
out. But also I've always hada background as a coach, right done
(26:30):
career and business coaching.So similarly, it's also about understanding
who you are, what yourattributes are, what your values
are, what you your strengthsare. And working with a career coach
who can help you think aboutwhat career is going to suit you
best. Because maybe you're thevery empathetic carer. And one of
my good friends has just goneback to learn to be a maternity nurse
(26:54):
at 50. You know, she's neverdone anything like that before. She
worked in environmentalbefore. So we're never too old to
change our career andcompletely shift it. But what's important
is you kind of knuckle downabout one, what are the options?
But two, who are you and whatwas going to fill your cup. And working
with a career coach doing theresearch, all of those things are
going to help.
(27:14):
I don't mean to sound as ifI'm throwing challenges at you, but
given I have an expert, Imight as well. I think one reason
that puts many people off,especially working parents, off going
for the tech sector because ithas a terrible reputation of long
hours, lots of sexism, racismand any other ism you can think of.
(27:36):
I'm sure not every employer islike that, but what would you say
to that? You clearly youbelieve there should be more parents
and carers in the tech sector.
When we talk about tech, wetalk very broadly. Working in the
salesforce arena, there's verydominant values within what we call
the salesforce ohana. Sothey're around innovation, trust,
(27:57):
equality. Everybody is sosupportive of everybody else in the
salesforce industry. There's alot of really lovely culture. Some
people have even called it acult, interestingly enough. But it's
a very lovely supportingculture where everybody is celebrating
each other and supporting eachother, which you don't really see
a lot. There isn't really anequivalent of that in the tech products
(28:20):
and so it is very unique. AndSupermums similarly, everybody that's
come through the Supermumscommunity have adopted all of those
values and principles andactively support each other. So everybody's
supporting each other withproblems and everything else. There's
a 50, 50 gender split at theSalesforce admin level. So actually
it's quite an even balance ofhow many women or men are certainly
at the admin level. I think asyou progress up again Women might
(28:42):
be scared of those promotionsor scared of going forward because
it might compromise theirflexibility. So that leads me on
to the next thing around. Overtime and hours. There's lots of different
companies out there and somecompanies might be very commercially
motivated, might have completeexpectations that aren't aligned
to you and what you offer.That doesn't mean the company over
(29:04):
the road is the same. There'ssome amazing companies that are very
supportive of people havingfamilies, people working the hours
that they're meant to managingtheir workloads on projects. So I
think it's about finding theright company with the right call.
And if you're finding thatyou're in a company that's expecting
too much of you, thenobviously that's not the right fit
for you. But equally, we canalso be our own worst enemies and
(29:26):
that we don't say no and wedon't manage our own boundaries ourselves
because we just don't pushback or manage our time. You know,
we're always a yes person,always trying to help. We always
take on too much. And so I dothink there's a level of self responsibility.
You know, I've been throughthis journey where I've burnt out
and I've had to delegate, I'vehad to sort of relook at what I'm
(29:48):
doing. You know, I think weall can do this. And that's why I
went. I mean, I went back andhad some leadership coaching that
helped me reset and redefinemy parameters. And I think having
a coach to do that issometimes necessary. You know, I
found it useful because Icouldn't sort of reset myself. So
I think there's an element ofoverworking. You know, it can come
(30:09):
from both of those directions.So I think it's just being really
honest with yourself aboutwhat's creating this environment.
Is it me? Is it the company?If it's a company, okay, move. Because
not all companies are likethat. So I think there's bad reputational
situations in any industrywhich can be caused by any different
company, you know, that mightbe out there that's done it. I think
(30:31):
the fact that there's lesswomen in tech is, you know, we're
going to constantly have thisissue of having less women in tech
if we don't get more womeninto tech. Right. And the more we,
we get into tech and the morewomen get into leadership roles,
you know, we'll see the shiftand the change. And we are seeing
that slowly. But that's whyorganizations like ours exist to
kind of make that shift.
(30:51):
That's a very fair point andwell done you for setting something
like that up and creating thatchange. If you are faced with challenges
and stereotypes by the peoplearound you, because it sounds like
Salesforce is quite asupportive environment. But perhaps
you ended up in a different.You changed your career and you somehow
ended up in the frying pan.What's your advice then?
(31:14):
Leave.
Fair enough. Okay, next question.
I think don't stay, you know,and don't stay in. You can try but
I've been in those situationssimilarly and I think it's important
to get somebody on your sideagain. I've had career coaching at
different points in my life.You know the reason I stepped out
of employment and went selfemployed at age 26 was because I
(31:36):
was in the frying pan and notgetting the support in the workplace.
And I had a career coach tohelp me recognise what to do and
help me take the next stepsout of that. So get support around
you and find an organisationin the right role. That was really
going to light you up. It'sreally important that you feel like
you're light you up
And then the flip side to thisis how you choose the right employer.
(31:58):
I've just been chatting inthis AI learning group actually incidentally
talking about tech. I'm veryproud of myself. I'm leading an AI
learning group group and oneof the women in that group is currently
applying for jobs and shewants to do as much research as possible
to make sure that she lands inan organization with a good culture.
But of course every websitethese days has beautiful statements
(32:21):
about diversity, inclusion,etc. What would be your advice to
her about how to choose anorganization that is really supportive?
Reach out to somebody thatworks there via LinkedIn and start
chatting to them and find out.
Excellent advice.
And that's how you get thejobs as well. It's a hidden job market.
It's all through networkingand reaching out to people and having
(32:42):
virtual coffees or meeting inperson and find out what it's really
like on the inside.
That is excellent advice. Iwould fully agree. Where can people
find out about Supermums? Howcan they connect with you?
Yes, if anybody wants toexplore more we do have two full
time member of staff who havebeen through our program incidentally
who offer free careerconsultations. So if you're interested
(33:05):
you can head over to Supermumswebsite which is supermums.org and
there's a page on there whichwe can add to the show notes which
is about what is a salesforcecareer. So that explains the different
job roles, the differentsalaries, what the transferable skills
would be. And you can book ina free consultation with our team
just to chat through all ofthose questions you might have with
them.
(33:25):
Wonderful. And we usuallyfinish the podcast with a few practical
recommendations that take nomore than five minutes. So if someone
is wanting to change sector,not just career, but sector, and
is listening to this and mightbe from the corporate sector to the
charity sector or vice versa,what would be two or three things
(33:47):
that take no more than fiveminutes each that they could do this
week to get it started?
So I think just to summariseprobably three key things that I've
said in the podcast today. Oneis write down and write down, actually
physically get a piece ofpaper and pencil and write down all
the things that you think youare really good at. Your attributes,
your skills, your knowledge,your values, what's really important
(34:08):
to you. And if you're notclear, ask people that you've worked
with or know you. So get clearon who you are and what lights you
up. The second is do someresearch around the most in demand
jobs, opportunities, sectorsand find those areas which align
with those skills and values.And then third is talk to people.
(34:29):
Reach out to some people totalk to them. Now some of this will
take longer than five minutesin the long term, but just to start
to identify people who mightbe in your immediate network, you
know, tell people what you'rethinking. You only can make ever
an informed decision throughhaving conversations and learning
in order to then make thedecision to move forward.
(34:49):
Very well said. It was apleasure to have you on the podcast,
Heather.
Thank you for having me andgood luck to everybody that's listening.
I hope you find what you'relooking for and if we can help then
that's fantastic too.
Wonderful.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Verena Hefti and I'd be delighted
(35:13):
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chargingpodcasts are led by men. Ireallylove
all the people who've joinedfrom the podcast, our fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same, then please head over to
leadersplus.org/Fellowship inorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combineambitious career with young children
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
the same stale, often malemiddle class people leading our organizations.
We must change this together.And I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast, I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back. Together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family and and
you are supported by peoplewho are experiencing what you're
experiencing yourself. I'mreally delighted that a larger majority
(01:54):
of our fellows have madetangible changes following the program,
be that becoming more seniorin their roles, working shorter hours,
having better flexible workingarrangement. They always impress
me so much with the couragethat they instill in each other to
do what is right for themwithout apologizing for having family
or apologizing for wantingthat top job. Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship.
(02:23):
Today I'm chatting to HeatherBlack. We talk about her story of
changing sectors and what sheadvises others who are thinking about
changing sectors. We chatabout how she set up Supermums, what
it's like to be a CEO who withchildren. And of course we also chat
(02:44):
about why she's such a bigadvocate for women in tech and she's
basically trying to convinceall of us to move into the tech sector
today. But she does so in areally passionate way. So I really
hope you enjoy the conversation.
Thank you very much for havingme. So I'm Heather Black. I'm the
CEO and founder of Supermums.I transitioned my career into tech
(03:08):
back in 2012 and realized thatother mums could do the same. And
so that led me to set upSupermums eight years ago to help
raise awareness of careers inthe tech sector. And since then,
We've helped over 1,500 peopleupskill in Salesforce technology.
So really love talking toparents, helping parents carve out
(03:28):
a life that gives them thatflexibility, but also enjoy the time
that they can have with theirkids, but also have a career that
they really love as well.
And what did you used tobelieve about combining a big career
with young children thatyou've changed your mind on?
I've always been ambitious,and I talk about the ambitious women
mindset because I think it'sabsolutely fine as a parent to feel
like you can still have acareer and still have those ambitions,
(03:51):
but it's about how to managethat, making sure that you manage
your boundaries, you manageyour mental health, you manage that
balance between having acareer and also feeling happy with
the time that you spend withthe kids. Now, that ratio looks different
for everybody, right?Everybody wants a different, perhaps,
balance ratio of what you do,how many hours you work versus what
(04:14):
you do with your kids. Youknow, it's about knowing what's right
for you and feelingcomfortable in that zone. So I transitioned
my career actually, just aswas having kids. And so I was able
to carve out a much betterbalance for myself through taking
a new career path when I wasstarting the journey of having children.
(04:35):
That's really interesting.What have you learned about changing
sectors?
I realized that I had relevanttransferable skills. So my background
was business and careercoaching. And I'd run a business
and career coaching companyfor eight years before I realized,
you know, I had to take thosesteps to pivot. And so I did some
(04:58):
research into what some of thecareer options could be. I had used
Salesforce CRM, which is aclient relationship management system
tool, within my coachingcompany. And it's something I'd really
enjoyed getting to grips with.It really helped me grow the company
and found a techy side of methat I never knew I had before. And
(05:21):
it wasn't about coding, but itwas about building a system that
could support a business andreally help it perform. And I kind
of really enjoyed learningabout that. So I decided that was
one of the areas to researchand spoke to people who worked with
Salesforce, what their jobroles contained, what they did on
a day to day basis. Iunderstood what training and qualifications
(05:43):
I would need to do to workmore in that sector. And having had
a business coachingbackground, I realised actually a
lot of the business coachingskills were very relevant in the
CRM implementation journeybecause it's all about helping an
organization understand theirprocesses, understand their KPIs,
(06:03):
help them manage thingsbetter. And that's very, actually
very lined with businesscoaching. You're asking the same
questions and uncovering thesame answers, but at the end of it
you're putting in a technologyproduct that's going to manage everything
for them. So there's a verygood sort of tangible outcome off
it. So I think it's just aboutdoing the research, talking to people.
(06:27):
And from that, as a sort ofreflection, back to your original
question. I realized actuallyI had a lot of transferable skills
that gave me the confidence totake that leap to move over.
You then started, I mean youdidn't just transition to the tech
sector, you also started abusiness which is now very successful
in tech. How did that happen?
(06:48):
I started out as a freelancesalesforce consultant. So I was helping
non organizations implementSalesforce and you know, that was
the path that I'd taken. Ilearned the skills of how to implement
Salesforce, went intononprofits, helped them implement
a CRM, to manage theirdonations, their volunteering, their
fundraising. And I was doingthat three days a week whilst having
(07:12):
a newborn at home who I wasbreastfeeding. So I was able to work
virtually earn 450 pound dayrates, have some lovely clients that
I was working with and I wasable to generate a salary of 60,
70k in the first year working3 days a week. So I was earning more
than in my previous job. I wasable to have all that flexibility
(07:33):
to just work remotely. And itjust grew from there really. I won
more client work, I got a lotmore repeat and recommendation work.
And after a couple of years Ifound that I was actually having
more work than I could managemyself. So then I had to make that
decision of well, what do Ido? Do I just turn it away or do
(07:54):
I grow a team? And previously,having run a business, I kind of
missed having a team. So Ithought, well, okay, I'll grow a
team. So I brought otherpeople on board, you know, and the
idea was it would be acollective and they would take projects
and we'd build the teamtogether. And so I grew that organization
to a team of actually 20 of usin the End delivering work for nonprofits.
(08:15):
But off the back of thatrecognized that there was a, a demand
for talent. Like actuallyhiring people to work with me was
actually quite hard to findthe people. So that's where Super
Mums was born. Because Iwanted to bring more women into this
sector in this job opportunityand make them aware of it and train
them up to be great salesforceconsultants. And some of those came
(08:38):
on to work with me as a team.Others, you know, gone on to work
in other companies. So that'skind of how Supermums began. Just
kind of naturally evolved.
Just go back to the picture ofyou breastfeeding a newborn and working
at the same time. I know a lotof people do it, but how did you
make it work? You know, a lotof people are forced to do that,
(09:00):
but I have done it myself andit is really tough, or at least I
found it tough. It's not easyto work with a newborn. I think I
had my first work relatedconversation when my baby was two
weeks old. It's not the end ofthe world, but yeah, slightly different
from what I was expecting. Howdid you make it work?
(09:21):
I had the six weeks off whereI wasn't working, which is the full
pay maternity leave. Butfinancially it wasn't an option for
me. I had to maintain workingbeyond that. So I would work three
days a week, but because thebaby's in the next room every time
it wanted feeding, typically,you know, actually I appreciate every
baby is different. But Lucywas pretty routine, right? It was
(09:44):
pretty much every three orfour hours that she'd want a feed.
So, you know, I could beworking in here and then I, you know,
arrange my calls around wherethe typical feeding times were. And
again, every baby isdifferent. So I appreciate it. But
we kind of had. It was certaintimes that she generally had a feed.
So I was able to put meetingsin around that and she'd be looked
(10:07):
after in the room next door byeither my husband or the grandma.
And so, you know, we were ableto juggle like that. And then on
the other, you know, I wasworking three days obviously and
I had the rest of the days,the other four days where I was with
the baby. And so it worked outwell. And she actually wouldn't take
any breast milk for a year. SoI had to be, I had to be like close
(10:29):
to her for like a year to feedher. She was not taking the bottle.
That is so tough. And I don'tmind, didn't take the bottle either.
And I still regret to this dayof somehow not making it and somehow
not getting them to do it. Ithink one of them only drank from
me until he was two and thenthey just wouldn't drink anything
all day in nursery and thenjust every hour or every two hours.
(10:52):
But yeah, I got through it.
It's hard, isn't it? And thething is in some ways it's lovely
to be able to feed them. Likein some ways you've got to cherish
that, that we were able to dothat. And there's a level of bonding
with them. But yeah, there's alevel that you'll go to to try to
get them to take the bottle.And like you say she was stubborn,
like she would not haveanything for like seven, eight hours.
(11:12):
And then you're like, okay,this is like serious. My second child
was fine with the bottle.Right. You know, she loves her food
now she's a different kettleof fish. So, you know, I think you
don't know what cards you'regoing to be dealt. It's not like
you can order a certain recipeout of the machine, unfortunately.
But I'm very thankful to havehad a career at home that was flexible
(11:33):
for me, that I could choosewhen I had meetings and I could juggle
my hours. I could work in theevening if I needed to because actually
a lot of the work I could doon my own time. As a self employed
salesforce consultant, therewas nobody watching my clock that
I was working nine till five,you know, I was able to work the
days or weeks that work forme, you know, and I could flex that.
(11:56):
So all of these opportunitiesled me to think actually, you know,
other mums could do this andit's something they need to know
about.
I wonder how much time. So Iknow that you have an agenda which
is you do want more women tomove to tech sector. But I'm just
wondering for the peoplelistening who are thinking, actually
(12:18):
this sounds interesting. Howmuch time do you have to invest to
train to be able to just as anexample, to do that salesforce. I
know there are other tech jobsbut to do that salesforce consultant
work.
Yeah. So I designed thetraining program at Supermums to
be very comprehensive androbust to give people the confidence
they need to upskill. I hadtrained and obviously I didn't have
(12:42):
supermums or I trained. So Itrained on a. I did a suite of three
weeks of training courses withsalesforce at the time but they were
very expensive, they were overin stain. So you had to go and be
in their office for a week.Each time one of those I had a lot
of morning sickness whichwasn't particularly enjoyable, you
know. And I say there werethree and a half grand a pop what
(13:03):
you would pay for the courses.So there were a lot of money. So
I designed the Supermumsprogram to be completely virtual
and it's 16 hours a week overa three month period. And you really
not only learn the skills butyou apply them and do some practical
case studies and you have aone to one mentor that works with
you as once you've done thethree months of training which you're
(13:25):
juggling around other thingsyou would do your certification.
And then we also give peoplework experience at Supermums where
they can get their hands dirtywith the product and they'll deliver
some deliverables for aclient. And so everything reinforces
your learning. It's like thatmemory muscle, you know, you keep
learning, keep practicing andfeel confident that when you go for
(13:46):
the job opportunity you'vepracticed it over and over again
and you've had somebodylooking at what you've done and giving
you a pat on the back andreinforcing your learning. And I
think that's really importantif people have never worked in tech
or have been out of work forquite a few years, you know, so it
isn't, I believe if you justdo a week training course you're
not really ready. You know,it's about practicing and feeling
confident when you go for thatjob interview and for hitting the
(14:08):
ground running in a job. Sotypically that can be, it's a six
month program where you've gotthe training certification, work
experience as I feel is likethe proper ramp period that.
Almost sounds too good to betrue to get a 60/ 70,000 salary for
just three weeks training.
(18:33):
So I had obviously usedSalesforce before and so I was earning
450 day rates because I hadinvested in training. So I had also
invested in business analysistraining, Agile project management
training. And so I was, youknow, I'd spent 11 grand on my training,
hence why I could charge £450day rates. So it's relative to what
(18:55):
you invest in your training ofwhat you're going to get out of it.
So the super mums that startwith us pay two and a half grand
for their course but theywould start on a day rate of maybe
300 a day or salaries of40,000. But then you can quickly
incremental increase fromthere because you will continue,
you have to continue to investin your training. But if you were
(19:18):
to say invest in a course,that's two grand and you're earning
minimum 200 day rates. Right.If we're looking at the minimum,
you paid off that course in 10days. So it's all about, I'm going
to invest in this, butactually this is the financial return
I'm going to get. And that'show I saw it. I was like, I'm going
to invest 11,000 pounds, whichwasn't all in one go. This was over,
(19:38):
you know, my period of growingmyself as a consultant. You know,
I built up and I continued toincrease my day rate because I was
investing in my training. Thatwould give me more skills and allow
me to charge more and kind ofhave more confidence in myself. But
that's a tangible trade off.Right. It's about any career, investing
in training to upskillyourself in order to earn it back.
(20:02):
I think that's very true, actually.
It was quite funny, actually.
Now when I think about theLeaders Plus Fellowship, which if
you're in a charity is aroundabout 3,001 around about 4,000 for
someone employed. Usuallyemployers pay the fee, but obviously.
In order to run somethingquite high.
Impact, you know, it has to befunded. But it is. Now you're thinking,
(20:22):
well, I think the usual payrise is about on average, I think
with the last quarter was 11%,which included a lot of public sector
workers before the uplift. So,yeah, I haven't actually thought
about it this way, but you'reabsolutely right. If you choose the
right training, it can havethe impact on the salary. Interesting.
Also, by the way, there's somestats that apparently the impact
(20:43):
of training for men on salaryis higher on average than for women.
I can't remember where, whichis unhelpful, so I won't be able
to include it in the shownotes, but I think it might have
been an article in cipd.
Anyways, I'll stop going offon tangents.
Because women don't sellthemselves. They don't sell, you
know, that's our biggestbarrier. Right. We don't necessarily
sell ourselves as well as menor feel shy to say that, which is
(21:06):
maybe why we don't get the pay rises.
Yeah, I don't know. I thinkthere's also something about being
socialized not to do itbecause there are different expectations
of behaviors on women.
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
So, yeah, I think it's acomplex one. You're also an advocate
for people, you know, havingexciting careers after children and
(21:26):
I'm interested. Just a commonquestion is how do I explain a career
break.
How do I explain that I have.
Just had three maternityleaves in succession? What is your
response to that? How wouldyou sell that to an employer?
I've been producing nextgeneration of talent.
Fair enough of tech talent,probably, given how much they all
(21:48):
are on iPads.
Exactly. You know the world'sgoing to stop unless we keep producing,
right? Very important job.
I agree. I fully agree.However, sadly, I'm not sure that
every hiring manager alwayshas that at the forefront. So do
you have any reflections aboutwhat to say we have to sell.
(22:09):
Ourselves again, it goes backto selling out rather than see it.
Because the thing is, if ourperception is it's a negative thing
and we have that perception,it's going to be a barrier. It will
be that barrier and it will bethat negative thing. So it starts
with us. It starts. How aboutwe promote it? As I say, we can actively
say in our cv, very importantcareer break to produce next generation
(22:31):
of talent. You know, duringthis time I did xyz, you know, and
I'm very much looking forwardto getting back in the driving seat
with my career. You know, it'sabout how you proposition it. I think
if we turn up to everythingwith a level of fear that it's going
to be negatively seen. It willbe like that. But we've got to remember
that it's not just women thatwill have breaks. Men will have breaks
(22:53):
for different things. Youmight have to look after a carer,
you know, be a carer forsomebody in your family. You know,
there's lots of reasons whypeople will have breaks and we have
to proposition it as this iswhat we've done during this time.
Almost be proud of what you'vedone during that time. And what I
(23:13):
think is important, going backto the upskilling piece though, on
this, is that one of thebiggest reasons why people might
be concerned is like, oh,well, their skills aren't up to date,
they're not got the latestskill sets. So for people that have
done our training program atSuperman's, for example, they are
going to have actually thelatest training and latest skill
set up to date to hit theground running in a job. That's why
(23:34):
people invest in theirtraining. So I think if you've had
a career break and you'retrying to break into an industry
where you may be behind onyour skill sets, I think it's a harder
expectation to ask theemployer. I'm not saying they shouldn't
by any means, but obviously ifthey've got a suite of CVs and they've
got people that have got morerelevant experience using latest
products or whatever, they'regoing to come on top, whatever. Whereas
(23:58):
if you've invested in trainingand skills in the latest industry
that you're working in, it'sobviously going to put you on an
equal footing. And sometimeswhat I say to our super mums is that
if you're currently out ofwork, you've actually got the opportunity
to upskill in products thatquite often, if people are working,
they don't have the timesometimes to upskill in.
(24:19):
Some of the latest products.
So you could create yourselfas a unicorn. So in the Salesforce
industry, they've just had anew product called Agent Force come
out. A lot of people would belike, oh, I really want to learn
that. But they're so busyworking their day job that they don't
have time. Whereas those thatare training up now can become the
experts in Agent Force andthen be landing these new job roles
(24:40):
that are coming out. So it'sabout being ahead of the curve. It's
about. Tech is changing veryquickly and rapidly. It's about positioning
yourself with the most indemand skills that are needed by
employers. And that's whereyou've got to do your research to
know where do you invest yourtime right now? So I think it's about
showing what you've done inthat time. We've certainly had people
(25:01):
train up during theirmaternity leave, for example. You
know, is there a demonstrationof that?
Interesting. And when youthink about, you know.
The whole idea, yes, I should upskill.
Myself, yes, I should be ontop of the industry trends. Those
are important ideas. But wheredo you find out what you know outside
of Salesforce, which is justone out of many applications, where
(25:25):
do you find out what the hottopics are or the opportunities?
So LinkedIn does a reviewevery year about the most in demand
employer skills. So those atthe last count were cloud computing,
business analysis, emotionalintelligence, AI business analysis.
Interesting enough. Soeverything that covers, you know,
(25:45):
that's not just specific to,it's very specific to Salesforce,
but also very relevant toother sectors and tech industry because
it's all about tech. You know,if you go into a shop these days,
there's nobody on the cashiersanymore. Those jobs are going, they're
being replaced by technology.So whether we like it or not, the
world is changing to a worldwhere everything is becoming more
(26:07):
focused on technology. SoLinkedIn, you know, have reports,
there'll be other job sitesthat will have reports, you know,
doing a Google Search, asking,chat gpt, you know, or similar. What
are the most in demandtechnologies right now? Where are
the skills gaps? Just do yourresearch as to where things are coming
out. But also I've always hada background as a coach, right done
(26:30):
career and business coaching.So similarly, it's also about understanding
who you are, what yourattributes are, what your values
are, what you your strengthsare. And working with a career coach
who can help you think aboutwhat career is going to suit you
best. Because maybe you're thevery empathetic carer. And one of
my good friends has just goneback to learn to be a maternity nurse
(26:54):
at 50. You know, she's neverdone anything like that before. She
worked in environmentalbefore. So we're never too old to
change our career andcompletely shift it. But what's important
is you kind of knuckle downabout one, what are the options?
But two, who are you and whatwas going to fill your cup. And working
with a career coach doing theresearch, all of those things are
going to help.
(27:14):
I don't mean to sound as ifI'm throwing challenges at you, but
given I have an expert, Imight as well. I think one reason
that puts many people off,especially working parents, off going
for the tech sector because ithas a terrible reputation of long
hours, lots of sexism, racismand any other ism you can think of.
(27:36):
I'm sure not every employer islike that, but what would you say
to that? You clearly youbelieve there should be more parents
and carers in the tech sector.
When we talk about tech, wetalk very broadly. Working in the
salesforce arena, there's verydominant values within what we call
the salesforce ohana. Sothey're around innovation, trust,
(27:57):
equality. Everybody is sosupportive of everybody else in the
salesforce industry. There's alot of really lovely culture. Some
people have even called it acult, interestingly enough. But it's
a very lovely supportingculture where everybody is celebrating
each other and supporting eachother, which you don't really see
a lot. There isn't really anequivalent of that in the tech products
(28:20):
and so it is very unique. AndSupermums similarly, everybody that's
come through the Supermumscommunity have adopted all of those
values and principles andactively support each other. So everybody's
supporting each other withproblems and everything else. There's
a 50, 50 gender split at theSalesforce admin level. So actually
it's quite an even balance ofhow many women or men are certainly
at the admin level. I think asyou progress up again Women might
(28:42):
be scared of those promotionsor scared of going forward because
it might compromise theirflexibility. So that leads me on
to the next thing around. Overtime and hours. There's lots of different
companies out there and somecompanies might be very commercially
motivated, might have completeexpectations that aren't aligned
to you and what you offer.That doesn't mean the company over
(29:04):
the road is the same. There'ssome amazing companies that are very
supportive of people havingfamilies, people working the hours
that they're meant to managingtheir workloads on projects. So I
think it's about finding theright company with the right call.
And if you're finding thatyou're in a company that's expecting
too much of you, thenobviously that's not the right fit
for you. But equally, we canalso be our own worst enemies and
(29:26):
that we don't say no and wedon't manage our own boundaries ourselves
because we just don't pushback or manage our time. You know,
we're always a yes person,always trying to help. We always
take on too much. And so I dothink there's a level of self responsibility.
You know, I've been throughthis journey where I've burnt out
and I've had to delegate, I'vehad to sort of relook at what I'm
(29:48):
doing. You know, I think weall can do this. And that's why I
went. I mean, I went back andhad some leadership coaching that
helped me reset and redefinemy parameters. And I think having
a coach to do that issometimes necessary. You know, I
found it useful because Icouldn't sort of reset myself. So
I think there's an element ofoverworking. You know, it can come
(30:09):
from both of those directions.So I think it's just being really
honest with yourself aboutwhat's creating this environment.
Is it me? Is it the company?If it's a company, okay, move. Because
not all companies are likethat. So I think there's bad reputational
situations in any industrywhich can be caused by any different
company, you know, that mightbe out there that's done it. I think
(30:31):
the fact that there's lesswomen in tech is, you know, we're
going to constantly have thisissue of having less women in tech
if we don't get more womeninto tech. Right. And the more we,
we get into tech and the morewomen get into leadership roles,
you know, we'll see the shiftand the change. And we are seeing
that slowly. But that's whyorganizations like ours exist to
kind of make that shift.
(30:51):
That's a very fair point andwell done you for setting something
like that up and creating thatchange. If you are faced with challenges
and stereotypes by the peoplearound you, because it sounds like
Salesforce is quite asupportive environment. But perhaps
you ended up in a different.You changed your career and you somehow
ended up in the frying pan.What's your advice then?
(31:14):
Leave.
Fair enough. Okay, next question.
I think don't stay, you know,and don't stay in. You can try but
I've been in those situationssimilarly and I think it's important
to get somebody on your sideagain. I've had career coaching at
different points in my life.You know the reason I stepped out
of employment and went selfemployed at age 26 was because I
(31:36):
was in the frying pan and notgetting the support in the workplace.
And I had a career coach tohelp me recognise what to do and
help me take the next stepsout of that. So get support around
you and find an organisationin the right role. That was really
going to light you up. It'sreally important that you feel like
you're light you up
And then the flip side to thisis how you choose the right employer.
(31:58):
I've just been chatting inthis AI learning group actually incidentally
talking about tech. I'm veryproud of myself. I'm leading an AI
learning group group and oneof the women in that group is currently
applying for jobs and shewants to do as much research as possible
to make sure that she lands inan organization with a good culture.
But of course every websitethese days has beautiful statements
(32:21):
about diversity, inclusion,etc. What would be your advice to
her about how to choose anorganization that is really supportive?
Reach out to somebody thatworks there via LinkedIn and start
chatting to them and find out.
Excellent advice.
And that's how you get thejobs as well. It's a hidden job market.
It's all through networkingand reaching out to people and having
(32:42):
virtual coffees or meeting inperson and find out what it's really
like on the inside.
That is excellent advice. Iwould fully agree. Where can people
find out about Supermums? Howcan they connect with you?
Yes, if anybody wants toexplore more we do have two full
time member of staff who havebeen through our program incidentally
who offer free careerconsultations. So if you're interested
(33:05):
you can head over to Supermumswebsite which is supermums.org and
there's a page on there whichwe can add to the show notes which
is about what is a salesforcecareer. So that explains the different
job roles, the differentsalaries, what the transferable skills
would be. And you can book ina free consultation with our team
just to chat through all ofthose questions you might have with
them.
(33:25):
Wonderful. And we usuallyfinish the podcast with a few practical
recommendations that take nomore than five minutes. So if someone
is wanting to change sector,not just career, but sector, and
is listening to this and mightbe from the corporate sector to the
charity sector or vice versa,what would be two or three things
(33:47):
that take no more than fiveminutes each that they could do this
week to get it started?
So I think just to summariseprobably three key things that I've
said in the podcast today. Oneis write down and write down, actually
physically get a piece ofpaper and pencil and write down all
the things that you think youare really good at. Your attributes,
your skills, your knowledge,your values, what's really important
(34:08):
to you. And if you're notclear, ask people that you've worked
with or know you. So get clearon who you are and what lights you
up. The second is do someresearch around the most in demand
jobs, opportunities, sectorsand find those areas which align
with those skills and values.And then third is talk to people.
(34:29):
Reach out to some people totalk to them. Now some of this will
take longer than five minutesin the long term, but just to start
to identify people who mightbe in your immediate network, you
know, tell people what you'rethinking. You only can make ever
an informed decision throughhaving conversations and learning
in order to then make thedecision to move forward.
(34:49):
Very well said. It was apleasure to have you on the podcast,
Heather.
Thank you for having me andgood luck to everybody that's listening.
I hope you find what you'relooking for and if we can help then
that's fantastic too.
Wonderful.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Verena Hefti and I'd be delighted
(35:13):
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chargingpodcasts are led by men. Ireallylove
all the people who've joinedfrom the podcast, our fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same, then please head over to
leadersplus.org/Fellowship inorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combineambitious career with young children
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
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