In this episode of the C-Suite Series of the Big Careers, Small Children podcast, Verena Hefti MBE speaks with Steph Hind, Co-CEO and Co-Founder of Heka, an employee wellbeing platform.
Steph shares her journey of scaling a business while raising two young children, the lessons she learned from not taking maternity leave with her first child, and how she ultimately restructured her leadership style to prioritise wellbeing, family, and sustainable success.
Together, they discuss:
- Why burnout isn’t a badge of honour and how to avoid it.
- The challenges of running a company with your partner and setting boundaries.
- Why many women founders feel pressured to skip maternity leave, and how this must change.
- How parenthood can make you a more decisive and efficient leader.
- The practical steps leaders can take to switch off and be fully present with their families.
This insightful and honest conversation is for anyone navigating leadership, entrepreneurship, and family life without wanting to sacrifice wellbeing in the process.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
✔️ How to set boundaries at work and at home - without guilt.
✔️ Why taking breaks makes you a better leader and business owner.
✔️ The power of switching off: Why Steph removed work apps from her phone.
✔️ How to manage the pressures of leadership while prioritising family.
✔️ Why parenthood can be an advantage in business and not a barrier.
✔️ How to build a supportive culture that values wellbeing and performance.
✔️ Practical strategies for avoiding burnout and staying present.
Show Notes:
- Connect with Steph Hind on LinkedIn
- Learn more about Heka
- Learn more about the Leaders Plus: Big Careers, Small Children podcast and explore additional resources at leadersplus.org.
- Follow Leaders Plus on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Bluesky.
- Connect with our CEO, Verena Hefti MBE on LinkedIn.
- Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
Our multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowships support parents committed to career growth while enjoying family life. Expertly designed to keep parents on the leadership path, our programme tackles gender pay gap issues and empowers parents to thrive. Learn more here: Leaders Plus Fellowship.
More BCSC episodes you might love:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
(00:28):
the same stale, often malemiddle class people leading our organizations.
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
a better place. Outside of thepodcast, I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
(00:52):
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
(01:12):
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship.
Community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of. People, a very tight knit,
supportive group. Of parentswho have your back. Together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are. And you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how. To
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your.
(01:43):
Hopes for your careers withyour hope. For your family and you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority. Of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program, be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with
(02:06):
the courage that they instillin each. Other to do what is right
for. Them without apologizingfor having a family. Or apologizing
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship.
Today I'm chatting to StephHind who is co CEO and co founder
(02:28):
of the employee wellbeingplatform HICA. We talk about how
she learned from her reallytough experience of first maternity
leave where initially shedidn't take any leave, and how she
changed her approach andstarted setting boundaries when she
had a second child. We talkabout managing well, being in a high
(02:51):
pressure environment,especially when you have a large
team of people dependent onyou. And we talk about how she approaches
and views being a CEO withchildren in tow. I really enjoyed
the conversation. She was soenergizing and I hope you find the
(03:11):
same.
Thank you for having me,Verena. I'm really excited to be
on the podcast. My name isSteph Hind. I'm one of the co founders
of hica, an employee benefitplatform that helps support companies
and employees so they canperform their best. I run that company
with my husband and co founderAlex, and we've got a three year
(03:35):
old and a one year old betweenus. So a young family which is exciting
and manic.
So you've definitely chosen tospend your life, you know, in quite
an intense way, being afounder and a leader, a CEO of this
organization, and then alsowith very young kids. What did you
(03:56):
used to. So you can probablystill remember what you thought about
being a parent and a CEO thatyou've changed your mind on. What
did you used to believe thatyou don't believe anymore? Combining
a big career with young children.
Yeah, I mean, to be honest,Lili at first was a little surprise,
which a brilliant, fantasticsurprise. But I kind of, it sounds
(04:16):
really naive now, but I wentthrough the whole pregnancy with
her obviously running Heka,but not really thinking about what
it would be like to have ababy. I was the first in my friendship
group to have a baby. It justdidn't really ever occur to me what
it would actually be like. AndI think that was probably because
I thought it would just flownormally, like you'd have a kid but
(04:40):
you'd be able to carry onworking. There'd be lots of juggling,
but you'd make it happen. AndI think what I probably didn't account
for is that your whole mindcompletely shifts all of a sudden.
It's not just like actuallythe tasks that are required around
a newborn and, you know, asthey grow, but actually just like
your whole outlook on lifechanges and your priorities. Whereas
(05:03):
everybody loves to say, don'tthey, that your business is your
baby, but then when have ababy, your business can't be your
baby. So yeah, I thinkprobably not a great deal of thought
actually went into what it wasgoing to be like to manage the two.
And how do you manage it nowpractically, there's this image of
entrepreneurs and CEOs workingall hours in the day. How do you
(05:25):
do it?
So with a lot of logisticalplanning, I literally have like my
calendar, the kids calendar,and we just basically break it up.
So there's a mixture ofnursery, preschool, but then also
we're lucky enough that we'vegot a nanny who comes to our house
and so that that breaks it upnicely. So this morning, for example,
she comes 7am to 11am, whichis really great for me because I
(05:49):
love working that time. Youknow, fresh in the morning, you've
got no distractions, nobody'semailing you or sending you slack
messages and you can just kindof get what you need to get done.
But then other days weobviously juggle that with a nursery
and preschool. And I also nowI'm only back to work three days
a week. That spread over fourdays. But yeah, just in terms of
(06:12):
the actual amount of hours andI find that that balance actually
means that I work better atwork because I don't feel like I'm
cutting down time with thekids and I haven't got any of that
classic mum guilt. So it's notbeen. It wasn't an instant have kids
set this amazing schedule andit works and I'm sure there'll always
be tweaks to it, but yeah, Ithink it's trying to find the times
(06:34):
that work for you and balancethat with how much time you can spend
with your kids.
And how do you deal with thatwith the rest of your team. Do you
all work flexibly?
We don't all work flexibly,albeit we've had a couple of people
who've come back frommaternity leave and they actually
are working flexibly. So interms of they're working reduced
(06:56):
hours, days. But we don't havekind of core. This is when you have
to be in from eight to six. Wehave core hours in that we'd like
people to be in between 10 to3. So obviously if you're trying
to plan meetings, but alsothat's. We work hybrid most of the
time, so it's quite flexiblein terms of we've got somebody who's
(07:18):
working from South Africa,whether she's just going there on
a long trip. We are quiteflexible ourselves at work and I
think that's part of our ownexperience of obviously having kids,
but also like the ethos ofHeka, And that thatemployees opletoo.And
soyouneedtobeabletoadaptaroundtheir schedulesinorderforittoworkforeveryone.
(07:40):
It's really interesting whenyou talk about, sorry, going completely
off track, but it's quiteinteresting how you talk about well
being and often inorganizations that are fast growing.
And you. Did you takeinvestment as well or you didn't.
Yes, we took three. Done threerounds of investment.
Yeah. So there's a lot ofpressure on the people who gave you
the money, they want to see aninterest. I'm assuming Leaders plus
(08:03):
is a social enterprise. We'venever taken investment, but I'm hearing
some horror stories. Hopefullythey're not true for you at all.
I'm just thinking how do youknow when enough is enough and when
you have high expectations ofyourself and of the team, but also
you want to prioritize thatwell being like realistically, how
do you do that in one of themost high pressure environments that
(08:23):
you can find, which is a fastgrowing investment driven organization?
Yeah, I'm guessing a bit maybelike the kids logistical calendars
that you don't get to itovernight. I think people seem to
think that well being and Ireally don't actually like the term
wellbeing that much becauseit's become so washy. But if you
(08:45):
say health, the relationshipbetween health, like individuals
health and company's growthare so interconnected that it completely
makes sense to look after yourown health, but your employees health
as well. So that if youremployees are feeling low, then that
company growth is going tostruggle. Whereas actually if you
(09:06):
could make your employees feelwell and that they can live and perform
at the best that they can be,then that business is going to be
elevated in terms of culture,in terms of output. So I think that
sure, it can be hard to say,okay, no, I'm going to shut the laptop
and I'm not going to thinkabout that anymore. Like we're not
robots, you can't justinstantly switch off. But it's about
(09:26):
creating time and structureand an outlet for yourself and your
team that actually wellbeingcan be structured. It might be you
do a pottery class or you gofor a run or you just know, okay,
I've got healthy food in thefridge waiting for me. Well- being
health can be drawn up inloads of different ways and outlets
(09:48):
like that. And I think we didtake investment and we've done three
rounds of investment. Butactually from a business perspective
we made the decision that we'dgo for profitability. So we're not
that far off definitely thisyear, maybe this quarter or the next
quarter that we hit thatprofitability. And so although that
there is that externalpressure, we've actually alleviated
(10:13):
that and made that decisionourselves that we didn't want to
be on this kind of hockeycurve of a growth where we had to
give away, keep giving awaymore and more of the company and
ultimately dilute our sharesbut also dilute how we wanted to
run a business. So yeah,wellbeing, is what Heka does, But
it's also so integral to howwe run on a day to day basis which
(10:33):
is a really long winded way.Sorry. Of answering what you said.
I don't know if I'm in awe. Orjust absolutely shocked that you
talk so eloquently about wellbeing with having a one year old
and a three year old.Realistically is it possible to.
I mean I know you don't likewell being but I guess to feel good
(10:54):
and how do you do it? I knowit's different for everyone but how
do you make sure that youstill have some joy in life?
Yeah. With a one year old anda Three year old I think it can be
tricky and I don't want tosound like one of these kind of,
you know, you can. It's autopian picture of well being and
I've got this one year old andthree year old and we only ever eat
organic and that it. Becauseit's not realistic but I think it's
(11:16):
about making like healthychoices. For example, last night
I got woken up three times.Once by the dog, once by each child
and I woke up this morning andI just wasn't. I'm not used to it.
Kids never used to sleep wellbut they have recently been sleeping
better and I was really tiredand I was like okay, I just want
to lay in bed. But I went outfor a run, it was only 5k and it
(11:37):
was very slippery and cold andit wasn't quick, it wasn't the personal
best but I came back and I wasinstantly refreshed and I felt more
awake having done that and setup for the rest of the day which
after this, you know, I'mtaking the kids for swimming lessons.
It's. It's a real dynamicjourney of that balance and I think
some days you're going tomanage it and other days you aren't.
(11:58):
We're obviously recording thisin January and there's such a big
buzz around like New Yearresolutions to set yourself up. But
actually you can wake up eachday and decide okay, I'm going to
do that 30 minute cycle or I'mnot going to watch TV this morning,
I'm going to listen to anaudiobook. I think there's little
decisions, little things thatwe can all tweak that tries to prioritize
(12:21):
ourself. And yes, some dayslike it could drive you mad and it
all goes to pot, but you canstart the next day afresh.
Yeah, I think you're right.Just thinking about Your approach
to switching off as well, I'mquite intrigued. But if your day
sounds quite bitty, you know,going to a swimming lesson, coming
(12:44):
back, doing some more work indifferent slots, how do you switch
off and stop thinking aboutwork? Are you just very good at mindfulness
and therefore are mindful.Engage with your children as they
get dressed peacefully andcalmly for their swimming lesson?
Or realistically, is theresomething that you've learned that
(13:05):
you, you, you're doing nowthat in terms of switching off?
I, I think there's two partsto that, that. The first is that
because I've run Heka with myco founder, we've always had to make
it that you have to leave worksomewhere because otherwise you're
with each other at work and then.
And your husband, your husbandruns it.
(13:25):
Yes, my husband runs it withme. So my co founder, who is my husband,
we run it together. And sowe've all always had to be able to
set these boundaries where wehave to leave work somewhere. So
when we go home, we don'treally talk about work. It might
be an occasional, oh, thisperson signed to something positive.
But we're never actuallydelving to anything deep around work
(13:48):
when we're at home. And we tryto actually, even if we're, we just
try to schedule meetings witheach other in the time that we are
working rather than havingthose conversations at home. So I
think I've made that decisionwhere you don't bring it back. And
so because we've been doingthat, we've been working together
for eight, nine years, sowe've actually got quite good at
(14:09):
that. But then I think thatkids are a beautiful distraction
and you mentioned obviously anice, peaceful getting them dressed
for swimming. And that's notat all. And almost that chaos means
that there's no room to bethinking about anything else. I don't
have emails on my phone, Idon't have slack, I don't have my
calendar. Talking about thoselike little decisions that you can
(14:31):
make to actually prioritizeyourself and be like, okay, is this
going to distract me? Is thisgoing to pull me away? Am I actually
going to answer that email onmy phone whilst I'm getting the kids
ready for swimming? No. Sowhat's the point in me seeing it?
So I've just removed any ofthat from my actual phone so that
you don't have those littledistractions to pull you away from
the present. And again,obviously stressful times occur and
(14:55):
you can't always actually justswitch off from it, but you can choose
to try and distract yourself.So if I find myself thinking about
something stressful, well,okay, I'll box it. That's when I'm
going to think about that. Imight actually even make like a calendar
notification for the next dayof this is the time to think about
that. So you're trying to.Maybe that is mindfulness, but I've
(15:18):
never put actual terms on it.But just really trying to safeguard
your own time so that you canbe present in the moment.
Mm. Okay, let's settle off allthe inspiration, but let's talk about
something more negative.Sorry, that came across very. I didn't
mean it badly, so I'minterested. Can you recall some of
(15:38):
your lowest moments ofcombining a big career and a CEO
role with young children?
Yeah, I think I mentionedpreviously that I went through my
whole pregnancy with my firstnot really thinking about the fact
that I was going to have ababy. I was excited and really, really
delighted. But it wasn't theeasiest of pregnancy. My eldest,
(16:01):
we found out at the 20 weekscan that she had like some heart
conditions. All fine now, butit was a very stressful second half
of the pregnancy. And reallyshe was born three weeks early as
well. So I hadn't even hadlike a moment off work. She had to
come by induction. And Iremember literally sending emails
(16:21):
at 4:00 in the morning beforeI went into hospital to have that
induction. Talk about balance,like just not any at all. I came
home from hospital, we were inhospital for about a week after I
had her and I came home, Ijust had the laptop still there.
Like, you know, she'd beasleep. As newborns do, they sleep
a lot. They sleep on you, theysleep next to you. And really anytime
(16:43):
that she was asleep, I wasstill opening up the laptop. And
it was three weeks after I hadLily and I was sat virtually like
we were. It was Covid time andI was breastfeeding Lily off site.
My oldest daughter doing aninterview with the BBC about how
you can be a founder and haveit all. You know, you can have this
family, you can have, have itall. And literally closing off and
(17:06):
just crying hystericallybecause I just could not actually,
I'd been saying it and then Iwas like, how do you actually do
this? And for about six monthskind of carried on that journey of
Lily slept. I worked all hoursof the day, didn't sleep really at
all, didn't do anything else.And it was really, obviously not
(17:29):
great. And it wasn't great forwork, like work. I'd created a fantastic
team around me, but I stillfelt like I had to do it all. And
ultimately it got to about.Lee was about six months, six, seven
months. And it was one of ourinvestors and actually chairman who
was like, okay, something'sgoing on here. And I basically made
(17:53):
the decision with my, my cofounder. At that point I was just
going to step down. And at thetime I didn't actually have much
intention or know about a planof coming back. In hindsight, it's
much easier to say, okay, Iprobably definitely had some type
of postpartum depression. Butmore than that, I just think I just
(18:14):
hadn't ever seen a founder,definitely not a female founder,
who'd gone through thatjourney of having a young baby and
been like, this is whathappens afterwards. Maybe I didn't
look hard enough. But itdefinitely wasn't a conversation
that was being spoken about tofeel like that that was normal. I
stayed off. I guess I was onsome sort of maternity, but I stayed
(18:37):
off. We then had our secondquite, quite close together. And
throughout that journey ofpregnancy and not having that kind
of okay, this is what is goingto happen at work. And that stress,
it was just a completelydifferent picture. And when Oslo,
our youngest, turned one, Ijust knew I wanted to come back to
(18:58):
work. It was a completelydifferent setup. I came back to work
and it was fantastic. I waswelcomed with like open arms. I set
a much more flexible structurefor myself and I eased into that
as well. But it was not allsunshine and rainbows. Even the night
before, even though I wasdeciding to come back to work, I
(19:18):
literally got into bed andjust cried hysterically, like absolutely
sobbing my heart out. AndAlex, my co founder and husband,
kept coming in like, are youokay? I was like, I think I just
need to get this out of mysystem. I think there's probably
some kind of like underliningpanic here. And as soon as I come
(19:39):
back it was, it was acompletely different story. And everybody's
been so accommodating of newstructure and support and the energy
and vibe that I've been ableto back to Heka because of that experience
has been completely,completely different.
(24:02):
Thank you so much for sharingyour experience so openly. Do you
have any reflections about thestructure? You mentioned structure
there? And I imagine it's hardto replace a co founder, co CEO of
an organization. Did youchoose to replace in quotation mark
yourself or did you just getyour co founder husband to work more
(24:24):
or do you. Did you come upwith some different arrangement?
What was the solution there?
I think as a founder you aco-founder, you always think that
you are completely invaluableto the business. And I think definitely
early on that's true. But thenif you've created the right team
around yourself, you canprobably look and say, okay, I do
(24:46):
this but X could do that orwhy could do that. And so it was,
we did hire some differentpositions, but they were almost further
removed. And actually it wasthe more of the senior team who got
promotions and took ondifferent responsibilities. So we
shared that workforce and thatworkload so it didn't all fall on
(25:08):
my co founder's shoulders. Andnow because of those decisions that
we made then to some of oursenior team, they are long standing
employees and that's becausethey've been able to grow and develop
with us and that they're happyto have that responsibility of, okay,
now I've got this and nobody'sgoing to be there to micromanage
(25:29):
me on it. So I think if you'vecreated the right team, you can trust
them. You can trust, okay, I'mgoing to take three months, six months,
a year off. Specificallytalking if it's a female and they're
going off a maternity and theywant to take a chunk of time, my
biggest advice around it wouldbe to try and actually plan that
(25:50):
out. Don't just do what I didthe first time being ostrich and
put your head in the sand andbe like it will all be okay because
you wouldn't plan like thatfor any other business decision.
And I think that we can almostget like stardom with ourselves of
like, you know, we're the maincharacter of this. We set it, we
make all the decisions.Actually you can trust your team.
(26:11):
And do you have any thingsthat are now different in terms of
how you lead as a result ofhaving had those maternity leaves?
Yeah, I think kids, I think Isaid it before, but kids can really
be a great distraction butthey also hyper focus you. Anytime
that I'm not with the kids andworking, I really want to make the
(26:34):
most of that. I know thatwhatever I do in those three, four
hours that I'm working, I needto make the biggest impact I can.
So being quite ruthless inokay, delegating this is now your
responsibility. You can do it.I trust you to do it. You can make
the decisions. I don't want tobe a blocker. I think that delegation,
but also in how clear cut youhave to be. You know that if you're
(26:58):
negotiating with a toddler ofthis is what you're going to have
for Lunch, you can't reallyleave much room for that negotiation.
You want to be like, this iswhat's for lunch. Can you just eat
it, please? And I think thatyou kind of have to take that same
mindset with work. I've triedto change my language or not even
tried to, I've seen mylanguage change. So in emails, for
(27:21):
example, I wouldn't say, Ithink when, when I know that that's
the case, you know, just thatslightly more assertive tone of if
I know something, then how canI make that come across without,
you know, sounding reallycocky or demanding? And I think that
that is a good approachbecause, yeah, you just have to be
(27:43):
that bit more clear cut,you've got less time and so you need
to make the most of it.
Sounds like becoming a motherhas made you a more powerful leader,
actually, 100%.
I mean, what better incentiveis there? You said about earlier
about, you know, how do youprioritize well, being in yourself?
(28:03):
And I think that's because Iwant my kids to grow up and know
that they can put themselvesfirst, that ultimately they are the
ones that are going to have tolive with themselves and their body
for the rest of their lives.And so if they don't learn to look
after it, you're not, you'renot going to get a second body. So
I want to lead by example indoing that and I think that that's
(28:26):
the same with, with work, thatI don't want them to remember, you
know, their times in childhoodas me being some burnt out, stressed
beyond compare, working allhours under the sun. I think that
I want to show them thatbalance you can achieve.
Great. Did you battle anystigma from those in your professional
(28:48):
network around your abilitiesor your dedication to your job whilst
also being a mother?
I think there wasn'tspecifically stigma from my network
of investors or just generallypeople, but there was just probably
no clear examples and I thinkI did allude to that before. But
(29:10):
it's difficult when you feellike you're a trailblazer in an area
that you don't want to be.Something like motherhood and pregnancy
as well. And that balancingact of, of being a co founder running
a business, you want to beable to look and say, okay, this
(29:30):
is how somebody else hasmanaged this before because realistically
these are all high stakesthings. You don't want to drop any
balls here. I think thatthat's why I'm quite open about talking
about it because I do thinkthat there is a way forward. Historically
there's been this real push.We want more female founders. We
want more female founders. Wehave female hours, you know, for
(29:52):
investment and we do all ofthis. But I don't think anybody's
ever gone the next lane andsaid, okay, if we are encouraging
all of these females to gointo and run these businesses, what
happens if they want to starta family? Like what guidance and
suggestion and who can wepoint them to? Who's done this before?
I think as an industry and awhole of like startups, we can probably
(30:15):
sometimes be a bit like, okay,we're going to jump on this kind
of, of almost next bandwagonof, yeah, let's get loads more females.
And I think that that almostgets lost if you haven't got that
support there, becauseotherwise it's just going to be,
going to be a churn. I thinkthe amount of women in general who
go back to work after havingkids, let alone if you look at those
(30:36):
statistics around women whohave founded companies, I think the
picture now needs to be howcan we support women in these roles?
So what do you think needs tohappen so that we do have more women
CEOs and co CEOs? What wouldyou change if you had a magic wand?
Change the patriarchy?Probably not with just one wave of
(30:59):
a magic wand, but it's a bigquestion and I don't think there
is actually an easy answer toit. I think more open discussion
around actually, if you areearly, early days, what can you do?
Like, is there somebody elsewho can take on that role for six?
Have you started thinkingabout what it will be like and what
(31:20):
balance you'll be able tocreate? Are you happy to work one
day a week initially? And Ithink just it sounds such a boring
answer to it, but normallylike logistics and that kind of planning
can help a huge amount.Everybody says that, you know, it
takes a village. And I thinkthat's especially true if your attention
(31:40):
is being pulled elsewhere.Some companies. Do you share parental
leave now as well? And I thinkthat maybe if you still. Obviously
I co founded it with myhusband and we had that maternity
where I was. I was definitelygoing to take that. But if maybe
your other half is in more ofa traditional job, are they going
(32:02):
to take some of the maternity?I think just a bit more open conversation,
which isn't the easiest orstraightforward answer, but yeah,
it's the honest one.
Absolutely. And I think wealso need more people like you and
others in CEO roles to justsay, here's how I do it. And I think
what we're missing is ablueprint for parents, both mums
(32:25):
and dads, who want to take thekids to swimming lesson and be a
CEO and who don't want to makea choice. And I have people say to
me, in fact I've even recordedpeople for this podcast who said
to me, oh, I don't think I cando. I don't think it's possible to
be a CEO, not work all 100hours. I have to say I didn't actually
release that episode. It waswith someone who, I don't know how
(32:47):
we ended up interviewing him.It was a bit of a random one, but
yeah. So there are people whobelieve that it is not possible and
I think we need to createthose new blueprints urgently. That's
what we need to change becausethings will change. The world of
work is going to change forsure. If we don't influence it by
acting differently, it's goingto change in a direction that might
(33:10):
not be what we like.
Yeah, I completely agree. AndI think that if, if somebody's saying
that they have to work allhours under the sun, then they even
need to hire somebody elsebecause you can't. That's not sustainable.
Not even just from like a wellbeing perspective. But nobody can
be on all of the time. Andespecially if you have kids, like
(33:30):
the amount of, you know, howmuch they obviously they drain your
cup, but how much they fillyour cup back up as well. That's
what fuels me througheverything really now. And I think
that's what I was alluding towhen I was said that it's not just
actually having a baby or achild that changes when you become
(33:51):
a mum or a dad. It's yourmindset as well and that focus which,
yeah, it's a whole new world.
Absolutely. I'm quite struckby your confidence of doing things
your way. And I'm interested.Did you have any advice, be that
practical or inspirationalthat really influenced how you combine
a C suite career with young children?
(34:14):
No, I probably just learnedcompletely by doing it the wrong
way the first time and howthat could have been improved the
second time. And I do have togive a lot of credit to my co founder
and obviously husband becausewe really are a team. So many people
say how do you can't imagineworking with my other half. But actually
(34:36):
I feel like we can be a Yingto our yang in that and it makes
it a lot easier to know thatyou've got somebody who understands
you emotionally but also athome in that work and home environment.
So that definitely has helpedI think we've been there for each
other. When I was pregnantwith my second, we found out that
(34:59):
Alex has a brain tumor. Wethought it was sympathetic side effects
initially because, yeah, I waspregnant with our second and all
of a sudden his nipple startedleaking and we were like, what's
going on here? And heobviously had some scans. We found
out that he had a brain tumor.He's still on medication for it and
might be having surgery atsome point in the future. But even
(35:22):
going through that and stillcarrying on running the business
together and really thatjourney, I think that you have to
appreciate that life is shortand if you're trying to work every
hour under the sun, it's notgoing to work because you're not
going to be satisfied withlooking back and saying, okay, this
(35:44):
is what I've done or this iswhat I've achieved. Like despite
working less hours, my outputand where he is is the best it's
ever been, you know. Q4 Lastyear, December was fantastic. Signed
a contract with a new companyevery day and if I'd have said that
(36:06):
to myself when I was just hadmy first baby and I thought I was
the B1 end or the company,without me it just wouldn't work.
It just isn't the case. Youknow, you can build fantastic teams,
but you just have to have theconfidence to trust them.
Fantastic. Well said. Can youshare where people can find out more
(36:26):
about you, where they can findout more about heka?
Yes. I mean Heka is probably.The website is probably the best
place to find out about Hikaand how we can support companies
and employees. Alex isdefinitely very vocal on LinkedIn
and I try to be and sharinghow we run business and how we juggle
(36:47):
family. We have a fun littlesegment that is I married my co founder
where we share funny factsabout each other and what it's like
to work together. I think thatit's good to kind of have your finger
on the pulse there and justkeep things fresh and light hearted
because ultimately we're allon this earth to hopefully enjoy
(37:08):
ourselves. And so I think thatas well. Is that. Is that balancing
act of. Yeah. Sharing some stuff?
Absolutely. And just for mycuriosity, did you get married first
and then found Hika or youfounded Hika first and then got married?
Well, we actually met atuniversity, so we did the same course
at university, founded Hikaand then got married. So yes, it's.
(37:31):
We actually. We got married inCovid with about 10 people because
our initial wedding wascancelled and so about two not Even
two weeks ago, a week and ahalf ago, we had a wedding party
that we never had, so we hadabout 80 guests. So got to do the
whole shebang again. So, yeah,for my sins, we've, yeah, we've been
together for a long time now,nearly 12 years.
(37:52):
And we start we've finishedevery podcast with two or three very
practical things that peoplecan implement the next week, which
should each take maximum fiveminutes. So can you think of any
practical things someone whowants to improve their well being
whilst being in a C suite rolecould do this week? It's fine if
it's just one or two.
(38:13):
I can think of twoimmediately. So the first thing that
I think people could do is toturn off the notifications on your
phone. I just think they areconstantly there to bleep and distract
you. It will really just likealleviate your head. You can still
open them up if you feel likeyou need to check them, but if anything's
urgent, I always say peoplecan call you. But I don't think it's
(38:35):
useful at all to have slack,to have Calendar, Gmail coming through
on your phone. I think it'sjust a distraction that pulls you
away from the present,especially LinkedIn as a notification
for everything. So just turnoff the notifications on your phone.
And now this is going to makeme sound like a real tech adverse,
but I also don't have a tv andI would say that even if it's just
(38:56):
for a week, just to hide yourTV remote and in that time that you
might have just sat down andbe like, okay, I'm just going to
relax and watch half an hour,which then turns into two hours of
Netflix. I would just say runa bath, go for a run, stretch, listen
to an audiobook, just doanything, even if it's just for a
week where you haven't gotthat. That's how we initially started
(39:20):
because I was fed up ofobviously working all day and looking
at a screen and theninevitably watching it in the evening.
And yeah, we just, we don'thave one anymore and it's amazing
what you can do with that timeotherwise. And probably the third
thing is just trying to put inplace easy ways to eat. Well, I think
if you think about a car, ifyou were putting the wrong fuel into
(39:42):
that, it's going to not runsmoothly. And I am a bit of an addict
of Red Bull and so you can'talways practice what you preach,
but definitely you can try.And I think that if you can order
some healthy meals or, or justeven having fruit on hand in the
office. Little things likethat I think make a really, really
(40:03):
big difference.
Very well said. It's been anabsolute pleasure chatting to you,
Steph. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much. And
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto FerenaHefti and I'd be delighted
(40:23):
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support. Afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
(40:44):
Most of the top chartingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast, our fellowship
program. And if you want to dothe. Same then please head over to
leadersplus.org/Fellowship inorder to get access to. A community
of support to help you.Combine ambitious career with young
(41:07):
children together with peoplewho have your back. See you next
week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
(00:28):
the same stale, often malemiddle class people leading our organizations.
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
a better place. Outside of thepodcast, I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
(00:52):
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
(01:12):
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship.
Community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of. People, a very tight knit,
supportive group. Of parentswho have your back. Together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are. And you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how. To
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your.
(01:43):
Hopes for your careers withyour hope. For your family and you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority. Of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program, be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with
(02:06):
the courage that they instillin each. Other to do what is right
for. Them without apologizingfor having a family. Or apologizing
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship.
Today I'm chatting to StephHind who is co CEO and co founder
(02:28):
of the employee wellbeingplatform HICA. We talk about how
she learned from her reallytough experience of first maternity
leave where initially shedidn't take any leave, and how she
changed her approach andstarted setting boundaries when she
had a second child. We talkabout managing well, being in a high
(02:51):
pressure environment,especially when you have a large
team of people dependent onyou. And we talk about how she approaches
and views being a CEO withchildren in tow. I really enjoyed
the conversation. She was soenergizing and I hope you find the
(03:11):
same.
Thank you for having me,Verena. I'm really excited to be
on the podcast. My name isSteph Hind. I'm one of the co founders
of hica, an employee benefitplatform that helps support companies
and employees so they canperform their best. I run that company
with my husband and co founderAlex, and we've got a three year
(03:35):
old and a one year old betweenus. So a young family which is exciting
and manic.
So you've definitely chosen tospend your life, you know, in quite
an intense way, being afounder and a leader, a CEO of this
organization, and then alsowith very young kids. What did you
(03:56):
used to. So you can probablystill remember what you thought about
being a parent and a CEO thatyou've changed your mind on. What
did you used to believe thatyou don't believe anymore? Combining
a big career with young children.
Yeah, I mean, to be honest,Lili at first was a little surprise,
which a brilliant, fantasticsurprise. But I kind of, it sounds
(04:16):
really naive now, but I wentthrough the whole pregnancy with
her obviously running Heka,but not really thinking about what
it would be like to have ababy. I was the first in my friendship
group to have a baby. It justdidn't really ever occur to me what
it would actually be like. AndI think that was probably because
I thought it would just flownormally, like you'd have a kid but
(04:40):
you'd be able to carry onworking. There'd be lots of juggling,
but you'd make it happen. AndI think what I probably didn't account
for is that your whole mindcompletely shifts all of a sudden.
It's not just like actuallythe tasks that are required around
a newborn and, you know, asthey grow, but actually just like
your whole outlook on lifechanges and your priorities. Whereas
(05:03):
everybody loves to say, don'tthey, that your business is your
baby, but then when have ababy, your business can't be your
baby. So yeah, I thinkprobably not a great deal of thought
actually went into what it wasgoing to be like to manage the two.
And how do you manage it nowpractically, there's this image of
entrepreneurs and CEOs workingall hours in the day. How do you
(05:25):
do it?
So with a lot of logisticalplanning, I literally have like my
calendar, the kids calendar,and we just basically break it up.
So there's a mixture ofnursery, preschool, but then also
we're lucky enough that we'vegot a nanny who comes to our house
and so that that breaks it upnicely. So this morning, for example,
she comes 7am to 11am, whichis really great for me because I
(05:49):
love working that time. Youknow, fresh in the morning, you've
got no distractions, nobody'semailing you or sending you slack
messages and you can just kindof get what you need to get done.
But then other days weobviously juggle that with a nursery
and preschool. And I also nowI'm only back to work three days
a week. That spread over fourdays. But yeah, just in terms of
(06:12):
the actual amount of hours andI find that that balance actually
means that I work better atwork because I don't feel like I'm
cutting down time with thekids and I haven't got any of that
classic mum guilt. So it's notbeen. It wasn't an instant have kids
set this amazing schedule andit works and I'm sure there'll always
be tweaks to it, but yeah, Ithink it's trying to find the times
(06:34):
that work for you and balancethat with how much time you can spend
with your kids.
And how do you deal with thatwith the rest of your team. Do you
all work flexibly?
We don't all work flexibly,albeit we've had a couple of people
who've come back frommaternity leave and they actually
are working flexibly. So interms of they're working reduced
(06:56):
hours, days. But we don't havekind of core. This is when you have
to be in from eight to six. Wehave core hours in that we'd like
people to be in between 10 to3. So obviously if you're trying
to plan meetings, but alsothat's. We work hybrid most of the
time, so it's quite flexiblein terms of we've got somebody who's
(07:18):
working from South Africa,whether she's just going there on
a long trip. We are quiteflexible ourselves at work and I
think that's part of our ownexperience of obviously having kids,
but also like the ethos ofHeka, And that thatemployees opletoo.And
soyouneedtobeabletoadaptaroundtheir schedulesinorderforittoworkforeveryone.
(07:40):
It's really interesting whenyou talk about, sorry, going completely
off track, but it's quiteinteresting how you talk about well
being and often inorganizations that are fast growing.
And you. Did you takeinvestment as well or you didn't.
Yes, we took three. Done threerounds of investment.
Yeah. So there's a lot ofpressure on the people who gave you
the money, they want to see aninterest. I'm assuming Leaders plus
(08:03):
is a social enterprise. We'venever taken investment, but I'm hearing
some horror stories. Hopefullythey're not true for you at all.
I'm just thinking how do youknow when enough is enough and when
you have high expectations ofyourself and of the team, but also
you want to prioritize thatwell being like realistically, how
do you do that in one of themost high pressure environments that
(08:23):
you can find, which is a fastgrowing investment driven organization?
Yeah, I'm guessing a bit maybelike the kids logistical calendars
that you don't get to itovernight. I think people seem to
think that well being and Ireally don't actually like the term
wellbeing that much becauseit's become so washy. But if you
(08:45):
say health, the relationshipbetween health, like individuals
health and company's growthare so interconnected that it completely
makes sense to look after yourown health, but your employees health
as well. So that if youremployees are feeling low, then that
company growth is going tostruggle. Whereas actually if you
(09:06):
could make your employees feelwell and that they can live and perform
at the best that they can be,then that business is going to be
elevated in terms of culture,in terms of output. So I think that
sure, it can be hard to say,okay, no, I'm going to shut the laptop
and I'm not going to thinkabout that anymore. Like we're not
robots, you can't justinstantly switch off. But it's about
(09:26):
creating time and structureand an outlet for yourself and your
team that actually wellbeingcan be structured. It might be you
do a pottery class or you gofor a run or you just know, okay,
I've got healthy food in thefridge waiting for me. Well- being
health can be drawn up inloads of different ways and outlets
(09:48):
like that. And I think we didtake investment and we've done three
rounds of investment. Butactually from a business perspective
we made the decision that we'dgo for profitability. So we're not
that far off definitely thisyear, maybe this quarter or the next
quarter that we hit thatprofitability. And so although that
there is that externalpressure, we've actually alleviated
(10:13):
that and made that decisionourselves that we didn't want to
be on this kind of hockeycurve of a growth where we had to
give away, keep giving awaymore and more of the company and
ultimately dilute our sharesbut also dilute how we wanted to
run a business. So yeah,wellbeing, is what Heka does, But
it's also so integral to howwe run on a day to day basis which
(10:33):
is a really long winded way.Sorry. Of answering what you said.
I don't know if I'm in awe. Orjust absolutely shocked that you
talk so eloquently about wellbeing with having a one year old
and a three year old.Realistically is it possible to.
I mean I know you don't likewell being but I guess to feel good
(10:54):
and how do you do it? I knowit's different for everyone but how
do you make sure that youstill have some joy in life?
Yeah. With a one year old anda Three year old I think it can be
tricky and I don't want tosound like one of these kind of,
you know, you can. It's autopian picture of well being and
I've got this one year old andthree year old and we only ever eat
organic and that it. Becauseit's not realistic but I think it's
(11:16):
about making like healthychoices. For example, last night
I got woken up three times.Once by the dog, once by each child
and I woke up this morning andI just wasn't. I'm not used to it.
Kids never used to sleep wellbut they have recently been sleeping
better and I was really tiredand I was like okay, I just want
to lay in bed. But I went outfor a run, it was only 5k and it
(11:37):
was very slippery and cold andit wasn't quick, it wasn't the personal
best but I came back and I wasinstantly refreshed and I felt more
awake having done that and setup for the rest of the day which
after this, you know, I'mtaking the kids for swimming lessons.
It's. It's a real dynamicjourney of that balance and I think
some days you're going tomanage it and other days you aren't.
(11:58):
We're obviously recording thisin January and there's such a big
buzz around like New Yearresolutions to set yourself up. But
actually you can wake up eachday and decide okay, I'm going to
do that 30 minute cycle or I'mnot going to watch TV this morning,
I'm going to listen to anaudiobook. I think there's little
decisions, little things thatwe can all tweak that tries to prioritize
(12:21):
ourself. And yes, some dayslike it could drive you mad and it
all goes to pot, but you canstart the next day afresh.
Yeah, I think you're right.Just thinking about Your approach
to switching off as well, I'mquite intrigued. But if your day
sounds quite bitty, you know,going to a swimming lesson, coming
(12:44):
back, doing some more work indifferent slots, how do you switch
off and stop thinking aboutwork? Are you just very good at mindfulness
and therefore are mindful.Engage with your children as they
get dressed peacefully andcalmly for their swimming lesson?
Or realistically, is theresomething that you've learned that
(13:05):
you, you, you're doing nowthat in terms of switching off?
I, I think there's two partsto that, that. The first is that
because I've run Heka with myco founder, we've always had to make
it that you have to leave worksomewhere because otherwise you're
with each other at work and then.
And your husband, your husbandruns it.
(13:25):
Yes, my husband runs it withme. So my co founder, who is my husband,
we run it together. And sowe've all always had to be able to
set these boundaries where wehave to leave work somewhere. So
when we go home, we don'treally talk about work. It might
be an occasional, oh, thisperson signed to something positive.
But we're never actuallydelving to anything deep around work
(13:48):
when we're at home. And we tryto actually, even if we're, we just
try to schedule meetings witheach other in the time that we are
working rather than havingthose conversations at home. So I
think I've made that decisionwhere you don't bring it back. And
so because we've been doingthat, we've been working together
for eight, nine years, sowe've actually got quite good at
(14:09):
that. But then I think thatkids are a beautiful distraction
and you mentioned obviously anice, peaceful getting them dressed
for swimming. And that's notat all. And almost that chaos means
that there's no room to bethinking about anything else. I don't
have emails on my phone, Idon't have slack, I don't have my
calendar. Talking about thoselike little decisions that you can
(14:31):
make to actually prioritizeyourself and be like, okay, is this
going to distract me? Is thisgoing to pull me away? Am I actually
going to answer that email onmy phone whilst I'm getting the kids
ready for swimming? No. Sowhat's the point in me seeing it?
So I've just removed any ofthat from my actual phone so that
you don't have those littledistractions to pull you away from
the present. And again,obviously stressful times occur and
(14:55):
you can't always actually justswitch off from it, but you can choose
to try and distract yourself.So if I find myself thinking about
something stressful, well,okay, I'll box it. That's when I'm
going to think about that. Imight actually even make like a calendar
notification for the next dayof this is the time to think about
that. So you're trying to.Maybe that is mindfulness, but I've
(15:18):
never put actual terms on it.But just really trying to safeguard
your own time so that you canbe present in the moment.
Mm. Okay, let's settle off allthe inspiration, but let's talk about
something more negative.Sorry, that came across very. I didn't
mean it badly, so I'minterested. Can you recall some of
(15:38):
your lowest moments ofcombining a big career and a CEO
role with young children?
Yeah, I think I mentionedpreviously that I went through my
whole pregnancy with my firstnot really thinking about the fact
that I was going to have ababy. I was excited and really, really
delighted. But it wasn't theeasiest of pregnancy. My eldest,
(16:01):
we found out at the 20 weekscan that she had like some heart
conditions. All fine now, butit was a very stressful second half
of the pregnancy. And reallyshe was born three weeks early as
well. So I hadn't even hadlike a moment off work. She had to
come by induction. And Iremember literally sending emails
(16:21):
at 4:00 in the morning beforeI went into hospital to have that
induction. Talk about balance,like just not any at all. I came
home from hospital, we were inhospital for about a week after I
had her and I came home, Ijust had the laptop still there.
Like, you know, she'd beasleep. As newborns do, they sleep
a lot. They sleep on you, theysleep next to you. And really anytime
(16:43):
that she was asleep, I wasstill opening up the laptop. And
it was three weeks after I hadLily and I was sat virtually like
we were. It was Covid time andI was breastfeeding Lily off site.
My oldest daughter doing aninterview with the BBC about how
you can be a founder and haveit all. You know, you can have this
family, you can have, have itall. And literally closing off and
(17:06):
just crying hystericallybecause I just could not actually,
I'd been saying it and then Iwas like, how do you actually do
this? And for about six monthskind of carried on that journey of
Lily slept. I worked all hoursof the day, didn't sleep really at
all, didn't do anything else.And it was really, obviously not
(17:29):
great. And it wasn't great forwork, like work. I'd created a fantastic
team around me, but I stillfelt like I had to do it all. And
ultimately it got to about.Lee was about six months, six, seven
months. And it was one of ourinvestors and actually chairman who
was like, okay, something'sgoing on here. And I basically made
(17:53):
the decision with my, my cofounder. At that point I was just
going to step down. And at thetime I didn't actually have much
intention or know about a planof coming back. In hindsight, it's
much easier to say, okay, Iprobably definitely had some type
of postpartum depression. Butmore than that, I just think I just
(18:14):
hadn't ever seen a founder,definitely not a female founder,
who'd gone through thatjourney of having a young baby and
been like, this is whathappens afterwards. Maybe I didn't
look hard enough. But itdefinitely wasn't a conversation
that was being spoken about tofeel like that that was normal. I
stayed off. I guess I was onsome sort of maternity, but I stayed
(18:37):
off. We then had our secondquite, quite close together. And
throughout that journey ofpregnancy and not having that kind
of okay, this is what is goingto happen at work. And that stress,
it was just a completelydifferent picture. And when Oslo,
our youngest, turned one, Ijust knew I wanted to come back to
(18:58):
work. It was a completelydifferent setup. I came back to work
and it was fantastic. I waswelcomed with like open arms. I set
a much more flexible structurefor myself and I eased into that
as well. But it was not allsunshine and rainbows. Even the night
before, even though I wasdeciding to come back to work, I
(19:18):
literally got into bed andjust cried hysterically, like absolutely
sobbing my heart out. AndAlex, my co founder and husband,
kept coming in like, are youokay? I was like, I think I just
need to get this out of mysystem. I think there's probably
some kind of like underliningpanic here. And as soon as I come
(19:39):
back it was, it was acompletely different story. And everybody's
been so accommodating of newstructure and support and the energy
and vibe that I've been ableto back to Heka because of that experience
has been completely,completely different.
(24:02):
Thank you so much for sharingyour experience so openly. Do you
have any reflections about thestructure? You mentioned structure
there? And I imagine it's hardto replace a co founder, co CEO of
an organization. Did youchoose to replace in quotation mark
yourself or did you just getyour co founder husband to work more
(24:24):
or do you. Did you come upwith some different arrangement?
What was the solution there?
I think as a founder you aco-founder, you always think that
you are completely invaluableto the business. And I think definitely
early on that's true. But thenif you've created the right team
around yourself, you canprobably look and say, okay, I do
(24:46):
this but X could do that orwhy could do that. And so it was,
we did hire some differentpositions, but they were almost further
removed. And actually it wasthe more of the senior team who got
promotions and took ondifferent responsibilities. So we
shared that workforce and thatworkload so it didn't all fall on
(25:08):
my co founder's shoulders. Andnow because of those decisions that
we made then to some of oursenior team, they are long standing
employees and that's becausethey've been able to grow and develop
with us and that they're happyto have that responsibility of, okay,
now I've got this and nobody'sgoing to be there to micromanage
(25:29):
me on it. So I think if you'vecreated the right team, you can trust
them. You can trust, okay, I'mgoing to take three months, six months,
a year off. Specificallytalking if it's a female and they're
going off a maternity and theywant to take a chunk of time, my
biggest advice around it wouldbe to try and actually plan that
(25:50):
out. Don't just do what I didthe first time being ostrich and
put your head in the sand andbe like it will all be okay because
you wouldn't plan like thatfor any other business decision.
And I think that we can almostget like stardom with ourselves of
like, you know, we're the maincharacter of this. We set it, we
make all the decisions.Actually you can trust your team.
(26:11):
And do you have any thingsthat are now different in terms of
how you lead as a result ofhaving had those maternity leaves?
Yeah, I think kids, I think Isaid it before, but kids can really
be a great distraction butthey also hyper focus you. Anytime
that I'm not with the kids andworking, I really want to make the
(26:34):
most of that. I know thatwhatever I do in those three, four
hours that I'm working, I needto make the biggest impact I can.
So being quite ruthless inokay, delegating this is now your
responsibility. You can do it.I trust you to do it. You can make
the decisions. I don't want tobe a blocker. I think that delegation,
but also in how clear cut youhave to be. You know that if you're
(26:58):
negotiating with a toddler ofthis is what you're going to have
for Lunch, you can't reallyleave much room for that negotiation.
You want to be like, this iswhat's for lunch. Can you just eat
it, please? And I think thatyou kind of have to take that same
mindset with work. I've triedto change my language or not even
tried to, I've seen mylanguage change. So in emails, for
(27:21):
example, I wouldn't say, Ithink when, when I know that that's
the case, you know, just thatslightly more assertive tone of if
I know something, then how canI make that come across without,
you know, sounding reallycocky or demanding? And I think that
that is a good approachbecause, yeah, you just have to be
(27:43):
that bit more clear cut,you've got less time and so you need
to make the most of it.
Sounds like becoming a motherhas made you a more powerful leader,
actually, 100%.
I mean, what better incentiveis there? You said about earlier
about, you know, how do youprioritize well, being in yourself?
(28:03):
And I think that's because Iwant my kids to grow up and know
that they can put themselvesfirst, that ultimately they are the
ones that are going to have tolive with themselves and their body
for the rest of their lives.And so if they don't learn to look
after it, you're not, you'renot going to get a second body. So
I want to lead by example indoing that and I think that that's
(28:26):
the same with, with work, thatI don't want them to remember, you
know, their times in childhoodas me being some burnt out, stressed
beyond compare, working allhours under the sun. I think that
I want to show them thatbalance you can achieve.
Great. Did you battle anystigma from those in your professional
(28:48):
network around your abilitiesor your dedication to your job whilst
also being a mother?
I think there wasn'tspecifically stigma from my network
of investors or just generallypeople, but there was just probably
no clear examples and I thinkI did allude to that before. But
(29:10):
it's difficult when you feellike you're a trailblazer in an area
that you don't want to be.Something like motherhood and pregnancy
as well. And that balancingact of, of being a co founder running
a business, you want to beable to look and say, okay, this
(29:30):
is how somebody else hasmanaged this before because realistically
these are all high stakesthings. You don't want to drop any
balls here. I think thatthat's why I'm quite open about talking
about it because I do thinkthat there is a way forward. Historically
there's been this real push.We want more female founders. We
want more female founders. Wehave female hours, you know, for
(29:52):
investment and we do all ofthis. But I don't think anybody's
ever gone the next lane andsaid, okay, if we are encouraging
all of these females to gointo and run these businesses, what
happens if they want to starta family? Like what guidance and
suggestion and who can wepoint them to? Who's done this before?
I think as an industry and awhole of like startups, we can probably
(30:15):
sometimes be a bit like, okay,we're going to jump on this kind
of, of almost next bandwagonof, yeah, let's get loads more females.
And I think that that almostgets lost if you haven't got that
support there, becauseotherwise it's just going to be,
going to be a churn. I thinkthe amount of women in general who
go back to work after havingkids, let alone if you look at those
(30:36):
statistics around women whohave founded companies, I think the
picture now needs to be howcan we support women in these roles?
So what do you think needs tohappen so that we do have more women
CEOs and co CEOs? What wouldyou change if you had a magic wand?
Change the patriarchy?Probably not with just one wave of
(30:59):
a magic wand, but it's a bigquestion and I don't think there
is actually an easy answer toit. I think more open discussion
around actually, if you areearly, early days, what can you do?
Like, is there somebody elsewho can take on that role for six?
Have you started thinkingabout what it will be like and what
(31:20):
balance you'll be able tocreate? Are you happy to work one
day a week initially? And Ithink just it sounds such a boring
answer to it, but normallylike logistics and that kind of planning
can help a huge amount.Everybody says that, you know, it
takes a village. And I thinkthat's especially true if your attention
(31:40):
is being pulled elsewhere.Some companies. Do you share parental
leave now as well? And I thinkthat maybe if you still. Obviously
I co founded it with myhusband and we had that maternity
where I was. I was definitelygoing to take that. But if maybe
your other half is in more ofa traditional job, are they going
(32:02):
to take some of the maternity?I think just a bit more open conversation,
which isn't the easiest orstraightforward answer, but yeah,
it's the honest one.
Absolutely. And I think wealso need more people like you and
others in CEO roles to justsay, here's how I do it. And I think
what we're missing is ablueprint for parents, both mums
(32:25):
and dads, who want to take thekids to swimming lesson and be a
CEO and who don't want to makea choice. And I have people say to
me, in fact I've even recordedpeople for this podcast who said
to me, oh, I don't think I cando. I don't think it's possible to
be a CEO, not work all 100hours. I have to say I didn't actually
release that episode. It waswith someone who, I don't know how
(32:47):
we ended up interviewing him.It was a bit of a random one, but
yeah. So there are people whobelieve that it is not possible and
I think we need to createthose new blueprints urgently. That's
what we need to change becausethings will change. The world of
work is going to change forsure. If we don't influence it by
acting differently, it's goingto change in a direction that might
(33:10):
not be what we like.
Yeah, I completely agree. AndI think that if, if somebody's saying
that they have to work allhours under the sun, then they even
need to hire somebody elsebecause you can't. That's not sustainable.
Not even just from like a wellbeing perspective. But nobody can
be on all of the time. Andespecially if you have kids, like
(33:30):
the amount of, you know, howmuch they obviously they drain your
cup, but how much they fillyour cup back up as well. That's
what fuels me througheverything really now. And I think
that's what I was alluding towhen I was said that it's not just
actually having a baby or achild that changes when you become
(33:51):
a mum or a dad. It's yourmindset as well and that focus which,
yeah, it's a whole new world.
Absolutely. I'm quite struckby your confidence of doing things
your way. And I'm interested.Did you have any advice, be that
practical or inspirationalthat really influenced how you combine
a C suite career with young children?
(34:14):
No, I probably just learnedcompletely by doing it the wrong
way the first time and howthat could have been improved the
second time. And I do have togive a lot of credit to my co founder
and obviously husband becausewe really are a team. So many people
say how do you can't imagineworking with my other half. But actually
(34:36):
I feel like we can be a Yingto our yang in that and it makes
it a lot easier to know thatyou've got somebody who understands
you emotionally but also athome in that work and home environment.
So that definitely has helpedI think we've been there for each
other. When I was pregnantwith my second, we found out that
(34:59):
Alex has a brain tumor. Wethought it was sympathetic side effects
initially because, yeah, I waspregnant with our second and all
of a sudden his nipple startedleaking and we were like, what's
going on here? And heobviously had some scans. We found
out that he had a brain tumor.He's still on medication for it and
might be having surgery atsome point in the future. But even
(35:22):
going through that and stillcarrying on running the business
together and really thatjourney, I think that you have to
appreciate that life is shortand if you're trying to work every
hour under the sun, it's notgoing to work because you're not
going to be satisfied withlooking back and saying, okay, this
(35:44):
is what I've done or this iswhat I've achieved. Like despite
working less hours, my outputand where he is is the best it's
ever been, you know. Q4 Lastyear, December was fantastic. Signed
a contract with a new companyevery day and if I'd have said that
(36:06):
to myself when I was just hadmy first baby and I thought I was
the B1 end or the company,without me it just wouldn't work.
It just isn't the case. Youknow, you can build fantastic teams,
but you just have to have theconfidence to trust them.
Fantastic. Well said. Can youshare where people can find out more
(36:26):
about you, where they can findout more about heka?
Yes. I mean Heka is probably.The website is probably the best
place to find out about Hikaand how we can support companies
and employees. Alex isdefinitely very vocal on LinkedIn
and I try to be and sharinghow we run business and how we juggle
(36:47):
family. We have a fun littlesegment that is I married my co founder
where we share funny factsabout each other and what it's like
to work together. I think thatit's good to kind of have your finger
on the pulse there and justkeep things fresh and light hearted
because ultimately we're allon this earth to hopefully enjoy
(37:08):
ourselves. And so I think thatas well. Is that. Is that balancing
act of. Yeah. Sharing some stuff?
Absolutely. And just for mycuriosity, did you get married first
and then found Hika or youfounded Hika first and then got married?
Well, we actually met atuniversity, so we did the same course
at university, founded Hikaand then got married. So yes, it's.
(37:31):
We actually. We got married inCovid with about 10 people because
our initial wedding wascancelled and so about two not Even
two weeks ago, a week and ahalf ago, we had a wedding party
that we never had, so we hadabout 80 guests. So got to do the
whole shebang again. So, yeah,for my sins, we've, yeah, we've been
together for a long time now,nearly 12 years.
(37:52):
And we start we've finishedevery podcast with two or three very
practical things that peoplecan implement the next week, which
should each take maximum fiveminutes. So can you think of any
practical things someone whowants to improve their well being
whilst being in a C suite rolecould do this week? It's fine if
it's just one or two.
(38:13):
I can think of twoimmediately. So the first thing that
I think people could do is toturn off the notifications on your
phone. I just think they areconstantly there to bleep and distract
you. It will really just likealleviate your head. You can still
open them up if you feel likeyou need to check them, but if anything's
urgent, I always say peoplecan call you. But I don't think it's
(38:35):
useful at all to have slack,to have Calendar, Gmail coming through
on your phone. I think it'sjust a distraction that pulls you
away from the present,especially LinkedIn as a notification
for everything. So just turnoff the notifications on your phone.
And now this is going to makeme sound like a real tech adverse,
but I also don't have a tv andI would say that even if it's just
(38:56):
for a week, just to hide yourTV remote and in that time that you
might have just sat down andbe like, okay, I'm just going to
relax and watch half an hour,which then turns into two hours of
Netflix. I would just say runa bath, go for a run, stretch, listen
to an audiobook, just doanything, even if it's just for a
week where you haven't gotthat. That's how we initially started
(39:20):
because I was fed up ofobviously working all day and looking
at a screen and theninevitably watching it in the evening.
And yeah, we just, we don'thave one anymore and it's amazing
what you can do with that timeotherwise. And probably the third
thing is just trying to put inplace easy ways to eat. Well, I think
if you think about a car, ifyou were putting the wrong fuel into
(39:42):
that, it's going to not runsmoothly. And I am a bit of an addict
of Red Bull and so you can'talways practice what you preach,
but definitely you can try.And I think that if you can order
some healthy meals or, or justeven having fruit on hand in the
office. Little things likethat I think make a really, really
(40:03):
big difference.
Very well said. It's been anabsolute pleasure chatting to you,
Steph. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much. And
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto FerenaHefti and I'd be delighted
(40:23):
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support. Afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
(40:44):
Most of the top chartingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast, our fellowship
program. And if you want to dothe. Same then please head over to
leadersplus.org/Fellowship inorder to get access to. A community
of support to help you.Combine ambitious career with young
(41:07):
children together with peoplewho have your back. See you next
week.
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