February 26, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode of the C-Suite Series of the Big Careers, Small Children podcast, Verena Hefti MBE speaks with entrepreneur, award-winning business leader, experienced non-executive director, broadcaster, and author Susie Warran-Smith CBE DL about her journey of building a multi-million-pound business while raising a family.
Susie candidly shares the realities of balancing a demanding career with motherhood, why she believes you can't have it all, and the importance of letting go of guilt and external expectations. She also reflects on setting boundaries at work, learning from business mistakes, and embracing life beyond career success.
Whether you're navigating career progression, entrepreneurship, or just feeling overwhelmed by the constant juggle, this episode is full of practical wisdom, humour, and reassurance.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
✔️ The myth of "having it all" – why Susie believes balance is about letting go of perfection
✔️ How to manage guilt as a working parent and why your children will be fine
✔️ Practical tips for setting work boundaries and ensuring time for yourself
✔️ How to build confidence and push past workplace discrimination
✔️ Why women should stop underplaying their achievements
✔️ The power of flexible working and why she banned weekend emails
✔️ How caring responsibilities shape leadership and decision-making
✔️ Why networking, mentorship, and self-belief matter for career success
About Susie Warran-Smith CBE DL:
Susie Warran-Smith CBE DL is an experienced non-executive director, entrepreneur, award-winning business leader, broadcaster, and author. She founded and scaled Breakthrough Funding, a multi-award-winning business that she later sold to EY (Ernst & Young), where she became Executive Director for Europe, the Middle East, India, and Africa.
She currently serves as a Non-Executive Director at HMRC and The British Library and is Executive Chair of Produced in Kent. In recognition of her contributions to small businesses, she was awarded a CBE in 2022 and was appointed Deputy Lieutenant of Kent.
Susie is also an advocate for female entrepreneurs, a sought-after speaker, and the author of Swimming On My Own. Find out more at www.susiews.com.
Show Notes:
- Connect with Susie Warran-Smith on LinkedIn
- Learn more about the Leaders Plus: Big Careers, Small Children podcast and explore additional resources at leadersplus.org.
- Follow Leaders Plus on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Bluesky.
- Connect with our CEO, Verena Hefti MBE on LinkedIn.
- Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
Our multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowships support parents committed to career growth while enjoying family life. Expertly designed to keep parents on the leadership path, our programme tackles gender pay gap issues and empowers parents to thrive. Learn more...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children. For much too
long, amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
the same stale, often malemiddle class people leading our organizations.
(00:33):
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
a better place. Outside of thepodcast. I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
(00:56):
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
such as on returning frommaternity leave, shared parental
leave, securing a promotion,dealing with workload challenges,
or managing as a dual careercouple. We also have an award winning
(01:17):
fellowship community which isglobal for working parents who have
big dreams for their careersbut don't want to sacrifice their
family. You'll join anabsolutely wonderful group of people,
a very tight knit, supportivegroup of parents who have your back.
Together You'll explore whatyour career aspirations are and you'll
get advice from senior leaderswho are also working parents about
(01:39):
how to achieve thoseaspirations. You'll get new ideas
to combine your hopes for yourcareers with your hope for your family
and you are supported bypeople who are experiencing what
you're experiencing yourself.I'm really delighted that a larger
majority of our fellows havemade tangible changes following the
program, be that becoming moresenior in their roles, working shorter
(02:01):
hours, having better flexibleworking arrangement. They always
impress me so much with thecourage that they instill in each
other to do what is right forthem without apologizing for having
a family or apologizing forwanting that top job. Details are
on leadersplus.org Fellowship.Today I'm Chatting to Suzy Warren
(02:24):
Smith about guilt. Aboutdealing with assumptions and her
story of building amulti-million pound business as well
as bringing up a family. Enjoythe conversation.
So my name is Susie WarrenSmith. I was born in London and I've
been in marketing all my lifebut I am quite an entrepreneur so
(02:48):
I have started a couple ofcompanies and the final one I started
I sold in 2020 and all throughthat period I've worked all my Life.
I've had two children, and Ithink I've learned a few things about
how you juggle that.
I bet. So do you sell itduring the pandemic or just before
the pandemic?
(03:08):
So, Verena, if you want tolook at how lucky somebody is, I
sold it on the 31st of March, 2020.
Oh, really? Well, that's why Iwas intrigued. That was not a bad
move, to be fair.
It takes a long time to sell acompany. So it had been going along
for nine months, but deadlinewas pretty fortuitous.
(03:28):
Well done. I'm gonna ask you aquestion that I ask all of our guests,
which is can you share withour listeners one thing that you
used to believe aboutcombining a big career with children
that you don't subscribe to anymore?
I've listened to a couple ofyour podcasts, Verena, and when people
say you can have it all, itjust can't. It's just not true. That's
(03:50):
why.
Is it something that youalways knew or you changed your mind
about that?
I think that I was brought upto believe that you had to be a.
This is really old fashioned,right? You had to be a good wife
and a good mother, and thatwas probably your sort of reason
for being so. Bearing in mindI was born in 1961, so this is so
(04:12):
obviously getting on a bit.But I wanted to have a career too,
and I didn't really see anyrole models for that in TV programs
or radio or films. So I findit quite hard to understand how you
would do that as well. But itdid seem to me that there are three
areas of my life, you know,work, mum, husband, you know, being
(04:33):
a wife. And therefore I feltlike I had to balance all those three
things, be good at all thosethree things all the time. And if
one was failing, like, thenmaybe all of them were failing. And
I think that's what I wasbrought up to believe. And in those
days, for example, my mumthought it was an absolutely terrible
thing to go out to work if youwere a mother, bearing in mind she
(04:54):
worked her whole life as well,Verena, but for her, you know, doing
like a few hours a week,that's okay. And then my. My husband's
mum, who's very old fashioned,Lancashire lady, lovely lady, but
she wasn't happy that I wasgoing out to work when I had two
children. So I think whatpeople tend to do, and I do see it
(05:15):
still happening now, is womentend to play down the fact they're
at work or they don't boastabout their achievements because
they don't want people tothink they're putting a lot of effort
in, because the de facto ofthat is it means that you're not
doing other things well. And Ithink the pressure of that is quite
enormous.
(05:38):
And when you mentioned thatyou have to accept that you can't
have it all and you have to.It sounded like you actually have
to come to peace with lettinggo some things. If I understood that.
Right, what. What did youdecide to let go, if anything?
(05:58):
I wouldn't. Yeah, yeah.
And your children are stillalive, I'm assuming.
Yeah, yeah. They're not drugaddicts or in prison, so that. That
went reasonably well. So,yeah, you don't sort of look at those
three things and go, right,I'm just. I'm going to be a rubbish.
I'm going to be a rubbishpartner to somebody, you know, my
private life, you know,that's. That's awful. And they go,
like, I just will. The kidswill just have to fend for themselves.
So it's not. You don't chooseone of those things or two of those
(06:22):
things above. Above the threeof them. So I think for me, it's
like, well, you have to acceptyou can't do them all brilliantly.
You can't. So give yourself abreak. Don't. Look, all the ridiculous
media things that are outthere at the moment, stuff online
and, you know, celebritieslike, I don't know, Gwyneth Paltrow
(06:42):
or, you know, Meghan Markledoing all this sort of stuff where
their house is beautiful andthe sunlight streaming through the
windows and they're. They'remaking amazing things, you know,
for their children. It's like.Well, it's not just not like that.
Most families are complete andnothing chaos, you know. So, you
know, if you haven't. If youhaven't managed to do all the washing
(07:02):
that week and you're sort oftrying to look at, can they wear
that twice, you know, thatsort of thing, or. I don't know,
you know, just. Just giveyourself a break and just think of
the fact that you can do 80,90% of it, you can't do 100% of it
right all the time. But theimportant thing for me, I think stress
comes when you feel thosethree things are out of balance.
(07:26):
So if you have got a partneror, you know, your friends are very
important to you and you don'tfeel you're giving that enough time
over the other things thatmakes you stressed, or if you think
the children are overridingsomething and you're perhaps not
going to some of the meetingsor some of the things you should
do at work, that will make youstressed. And I think trying to find
a balance across the three iswhen you're going to be happiest.
(07:48):
You can't do it, all right?You can't. So, like, give yourself
a break and accept you have.You just can do the best you can
do.
That sounds great. Like,Garrett, great advice in theory.
In practice, how do you. Ifyou. And I think a lot of listeners
will really resonate with thisidea of it being out of kilter at
different points in the day,never mind different points in the
(08:09):
week, how do you give yourselfa break or rejig things and accept
that maybe you're not going tobe there? The swimming, or maybe
this week they miss swimmingbecause you just need a break.
To be honest, I don't reallycare. It's what you think. So, you
know, if I didn't turn up tomy daughter's, I don't know, ballet
(08:30):
thing, would she reallynotice? I mean, I don't know. You
know, if you were there, notjust. Not one of the weeks, I suppose
so, you know, you don't haveto be there all the time, really.
Have a good look at yourselfand think about what you can get
away with. I suppose what willbe an acceptable level that you'll
feel okay with, but you can'tdo everything. And the other piece
(08:51):
of advice, it's very hard whenyou've got little amount of time.
The other piece of advice, Iwould say is you must do something
for yourself during the week.You must do that. And for me, I used
to play squash because it wasviolent. I could get rid of all this
aggression, all these peoplethat would drive me mad. But it might
be you. Just like, I'm justgonna get my nails done just once
(09:13):
a week. That is going to be myhour to myself or whatever is your
thing. So try and giveyourself some time. The other big
lesson I learned is, is notgoing to happen at your whole life.
They go. They grow up and theygo away. So it is. Sometimes you
feel like your whole life'sgoing to be like that, but actually
(09:34):
it is a temporary thing, youknow, and your children need you
for different reasons atdifferent times. But, you know, eventually
they do go away. Just wait forthat day. I'm the best mother now.
They're not here.
I resonate a lot of what yousaid. I'm curious about this point
(09:55):
of being faced with otherpeople's expectations and you might
say yes. You know, obviouslyit was a few years ago where you
had grandmothers having veryclear expectations of a good mother,
stays at home. But you'd besurprised. You still. I still hear
that a lot from the fellows inour Fellowship program in that there
are, you know, their parentsor even their peers at the school
(10:16):
gate look at them a bitstrangely because they are maybe
choosing to work full time ormaybe choosing to not be there at
every drop off and pick upbecause, oh, well, they actually
have a partner, some of them,and so they are sometimes at a drop
off and pick up or they chooseto send them to breakfast or after
school club. So. But there'sstill that guilt because someone
(10:37):
else is telling you this isnot how you're supposed to be a mother
or a father. How did you dealwith that? Was that just, are you
just a really strong personand it didn't really get to you?
I wish. I mean, yeah, ofcourse I did suffer guilt. I think
the great thing about gettingolder, and trust me, there are not
many great things aboutgetting older, is that you don't
care anymore. And actually, asI got older and the kids go out,
(10:59):
I really couldn't care less.And I think you have to stop worrying
about what other people thinkof you because it gets in the way
and just work out what youthink is right because that's all
that matters. I used to feelterribly guilty that my kids, you
know, sometimes I was the lastperson to pick them up after school
club because, you know, therewas a crash on the motorway or the
(11:21):
train was late or something.They're fine. They don't even remember.
And I think the thing you mustremember as a woman who's working
is that you are a great rolemodel. Whether you like it or not,
those kids are watching youand your partner, I'm sure. Get up
every day, get washed, getdressed, look good, have some breakfast,
(11:43):
go out the door, get somework, you earn some money, you forge
your own way in life. They'rewatching that all the time and they're
surrounded by it. And youknow, it's really interesting. One
of my daughters is a stay athome mom. She absolutely loves it.
The other one is a hotshotlawyer. They had exactly the same
upbringing and they're bothfine with what they're doing now.
They're both happy with whatthey're doing and managing to make
(12:05):
it work in their own way. Soyou're not gonna, you're not gonna
destroy your kids by going outto work. It's the same..
Thank you for saying that. Iwas just thinking everyone needs
to hear that. But it's alsofunny how time plays such an important
role because I think a lot ofthe listeners who are right now,
I don't know when this will begoing out, but it might well be around
(12:28):
World Book Day and, you know,last minute, oh, my goodness. My
child doesn't have a costumegoing in. In a tea towel. My children
definitely are in thatcategory. I have three. So, you know,
the detail orientation is notthat tight anymore.
I hate that. When you opentheir school bag and you go, oh,
no, I was supposed to make acake last night. God, you know, it's
(12:49):
all that. It's like, quick, godown Sainsbury's, get some cakes,
bash it in a little bit, looklike it's homemade. You. That's just
what we do. It's fine. It's funny.
The expectations have risen aswell. So even today I got a text.
Luckily, I don't get alltexts. Some. Some go to my partner.
But I got a text from schoolsaying, oh, yeah, tomorrow we have
to bring in a baby photo. Ihave no idea where the baby photos
(13:09):
of my children are. So we haveto. I'm going to choose wisely of
whether or not I'm going tospend time digging them up and so
on. Yeah. So there aredifferent expectations, I think.
I think. I think schools havegot to take a look at themselves
as well. I think, think moreand more they're saying that parents
do this, parents that, andparents do, you know, the other.
And I don't think a lot ofteachers understand what it is like
going to work and organizingall those things. And sometimes they're
(13:32):
making unrealistic demands.And if you think those demands are
unrealistic, you say, look,you know, I mean, I used to have
to travel abroad sometimes. Iwasn't there. So, you know, husband
has to do things like. And youjust say, I'm sorry, the kid hasn't
got it. So, you know, I mean,I remember one of my kids said, you
have to write about your pet.We don't have any pets. So she said,
what should I write about? Isaid, don't. Don't write about it.
(13:53):
Just say, I don't have anypets. Write something else.
It's a great teacher. I thinkthat's homework.
Well, it's a bit unrealistic,you know, and I think teachers sometimes
should be a bit more cognizantof, you know, both partners working,
which is always difficult, youknow, or, you know, the dad's at
Home's got a slightlydifferent perspective on things,
or, you know, whatever itmight be. You've got a really mixed
(14:15):
family. I don't seem to betaking any notice of that. And I
think sometimes you just haveto stand up for yourself and say,
I don't think this isrealistic, or, I couldn't do it.
What are they going to do? Youcan't be perfect. You can't be a
perfect mum and go to work.You just can't.
I mean, I would not be perfectmum staying at home. In fact, I probably
would be the absoluteopposite. Oh, yeah.
Could never stop home. Oh,could you imagine it? I don't know
(14:37):
how my daughter does it. Shedoes it. She's amazing. I'd be a
terrible mother. I'd be awful.I'd shout at them all the time. They'd
get on my nerves. I'd beterrible, awful, you know, and. And
going out for work for me wasimportant for myself. I think you
need to set yourself somerules, though. And. And one of the
things I used to do is, yeah,I might work late when the kids are
(14:58):
in bed, or they might go seeafter school club or whatever, but
I never, ever worked at theweekends. Never. It's like, no, this
is family time, you know, andtry and never answer emails. Never
do any of those things. Andwhen I set up my company, it was
an offense. You would getdisciplined if you answered your
emails at the weekend or inthe evening. Just not allowed. Do
(15:20):
your work at work and then athome, you're at home, you know, so
carve some time out. And Ithink that, you know, that was like
a good rule, really. We're allhere as a family together at the
weekends. It's difficult ifyou've got a job that's, you know,
I don't know, shift work orsomething, but. But try and carve
out some days that are family days.
(15:41):
When I Look at your LinkedInprofile, I think it's the. It's basically
that. It's the descript. It'sthe definition of a big career. I
think you even got. I shouldhave remembered this, but you've
even got a. What is it?Commander of the British Empire or
something like that. I'msorry, I'm not. I'm Swiss, not British,
so I can never remember whatthe different things are. But basically
it's a very. For theinternational listeners, you've got
(16:02):
a very famous, very seriousaward from the Queen for being brilliant.
For services to small business.
There you go. So, like, youdon't get that Unless you have a
very, very stellar career.
Or you're a politician.
Well. Oh, yeah, that's a wish,but yes, well, I think that's true.
(16:26):
Skate over that Verena. Yeah.
Or. Yeah, I think there aresome, some people who get it, obviously,
as. As favors, but I'm surenot in your case. That will be a
whole different podcast about the.
I don't know any posh. I don'tknow anybody posh. So, yeah, it's
highly unlikely.
Oh, no. Well, now, you know,doesn't that make you posh, on a
(16:46):
side note, automatically tohave this sort of.
I think what's beeninteresting, having cbe, because
it is. It is an honour andit's very well recognized in the
uk. I think what that allowsme to do is I do quite a lot of charity
work. It allows me to get inand do things which possibly you
couldn't. People tend toanswer your emails, whereas they
never used to. And I justthink it manages to leverage Internet
(17:10):
Works and Things Where youwant to make a difference. And that's
been very helpful and I thinkslightly conflicted about whether
you should accept it or not.But, you know, if it helps you further
the, you know, the sort of. Imean, I do a lot of things about
women in business and helping,you know, mentor entrepreneurs and
things, particularly women,then that's good. It's a good thing.
(17:33):
So just be pragmatic about it.
Absolutely. It's about purposein the end. So your career is stellar,
your children turn out well from.
Well, they might not say.
Please write In children ifyou don't agree, but I'm sure, I'm
sure they did. And you seem atpeace. I mean, I'm. I don't mean
to be psychologists or makethis sound very esoteric, but you
(17:56):
seem like you're okay with howthings went and I'm just interested
now, in hindsight. Were thereany moments where you almost threw
in the towel and said,actually, this is too hard, I can't
combine a bakery with youngchildren. I'm just gonna give up.
Loads sometimes. Of course,yeah. So I wrote this autobiography
called Swimming on My Own,which I don't want to make money
(18:17):
out of, so it's on Kindle andif you go onto Spotify, you can listen
to it for free, but you canalso buy it off Amazon. And I really
wanted to tell other womenwhat it was like going through those
periods when sometimes there'sa crunch time and sometimes you just
don't think you can put onestep in front of another and carry
(18:39):
on. Now that Soundsmelodramatic, but I think sometimes
we do all hit that point. AndI really wanted to write that because
I wanted to explain how Imanaged to get over those things
and how I managed to just keeppushing forward. Not particularly
ambitious. I know it soundsweird, but I just, for my. I think
I wanted to prove things tomyself because I grew up in a really
(19:02):
poor background and, you know,my, my parents weren't educated and
weren't helpful and so I just,I don't know, I just wanted to prove
it to myself. I didn't haveany external pressure. And so I specifically
wrote it and recorded itbecause I was hoping it might just
sometimes help other peoplethrough. Hopefully people find it
(19:22):
funny as well because thereare some incredibly funny things.
Oh my God. I made dreadfulmistakes in business, but it's tough.
It's tough. But actuallycoming out the other end of it, it's
just a great place to be, youknow, if you've worked hard and you've
managed to cough yourself outa career and you bought some lovely
children, you should be reallyproud of yourself. Really, really,
(19:45):
really proud of yourself. Youare one of the greatest global citizens
there are, you know, And Ihave four grandchildren now. Very
interesting to see themgrowing up. So five year old, four
year old, three year old, twoyear old, you think your house is
a mess. If you've got twochildren, you see what it's like.
I've got four grandchildrenand it'd be very. So three of them
(20:06):
are girls. Very interesting tosee, you know, how they grew up and
what they choose to do. Butnow I'm older, I'm retired, I don't
really work, I just dovoluntary things and do stuff to
help women in business. Andyeah, I feel, really, feel really
relaxed about it. I mean, tobe honest, Farina, part of that is
(20:27):
selling my company formillions and millions of pounds.
It's very easy to be happywhen you never have to work again,
you never have to worry aboutmoney. So I'm in an incredibly privileged
position, but I do believe inpublic service. So payback time and
pay forward time.
Well, thank you and thank youfor making, sharing your story on
this podcast as part of that.And we must put, if you sent me the
(20:51):
link to the audiobook, theSpotify link, we must put it in the
newsletter. It sounds.
Yeah. And then hopefully thathelps people and it doesn't cost
anything.
Yeah. I mean, imagine even nowit's still unusual for someone who
founds and grows companiesreally successfully to be a woman,
especially the woman withCaring responsibilities at the time,
did you face any stigma,especially when you went for investment,
(21:14):
or not so much?
I didn't go for investmentbecause I knew I wouldn't get it.
So I started my company when Iwas 55, at which point I didn't have
a mortgage and just decided tobet £300,000 on it. And I felt like
I had to. I don't know why Ihad to prove it to myself that I
could do it. Fed up withlistening to other people telling
(21:36):
me how to do things. Fed upwith being ignored and patted on
the head by people who thoughtthey knew better. And I thought I'd
bet it. I thought I'd bet thatamount of money. And then I thought
if it didn't work out, if Iran out of money, I wouldn't ever
go into debt. Then I'd justhave to keep working for another
10 years and keep commuting toLondon or something. But I didn't
(21:58):
go for investment because,Reena, don't think I'd have got it.
And actually I tried to get abank loan. Couldn't get a bank loan.
Makes you laugh when you.You've got a house and everything,
but. And yet, as soon as thebusiness started to be incredibly
successful, guess what?Getting on dated with people asking
if I want a loan, if I wantinvestment. And at that point I didn't
need it, so couldn't get anyof that at all. Women still can't
(22:23):
get it.
So I find it very refreshingthat you did that at 55, which is
fantastic, because the wholeidea that you can do things for a
really long time, assuming youstay healthy, it's quite empowering,
I think, for people who feelright now they're finding it hard
to get things going with young children.
(26:49):
It's a much easier thing to dowhen you're older if you've still
got the energy because youdon't have anything to lose. You
don't have those parentalresponsibilities anymore, and it's
all about you. And I justwanted to give it one last go. And
I gave myself five years andmanaged to do it in five years, so
(27:09):
had nobody holding me back.Not responsible for anybody anymore.
It didn't matter how peoplesaw you, couldn't care less. Sorry.
I spent my whole life worryingabout it. And that is a great thing
about age, actually. But, youknow, don't underestimate trying
to be an entrepreneur whenyou've got bills to pay, you know,
(27:30):
when the pressure's on, that'sreally, really hard. I'd done a Couple
of businesses and it's sort ofjust been okay. But I was making
a living. I wasn't, you know,I wasn't saving any money or anything.
I was just making a living. Sojust flitted between that and corporate
life. But I just wanted to putall the things I'd learned into practice,
see if it would work. Luckily,it did. The timing was good, especially
(27:52):
with the.
Selling a bit for the pandemic.
Yeah, thank you.
That is such a. Yeah, you mustbe very pleased with that. Do you
have, in hindsight, anythingthat you would do differently? Practically,
but, you know, thinking backto the time of combining your children,
when they were still more inthe primary school age or even younger,
(28:13):
I think.
I put up with too much. Yeah,I put up with too much crap, I think.
And I know I don't sound itnow, but then I would. I wouldn't
challenge somebody if Ithought what they were doing was
discriminatory or I wouldn'tstick my head above the parapet.
And I tended to get promotedbecause I was just. I just worked
(28:35):
really hard and I was good atmy job, and I thought that was enough.
And as I got. As I got older,I just realized that wasn't enough.
And people who, particularlymen who were nowhere near as good,
you know, would be part ofthis club where they managed to get
promoted. And I didn't seem tobe part of that club. And. And when
I did get discriminatedagainst hundreds of times, literally
(28:57):
hundreds of times, I didn'treally say anything. And I think
you should now. Difficult whenyou're more junior. But I think there
are ways of doing it which Ididn't understand then. And I don't
think it's about being, youknow, arty about it or aggressive.
I think it's, you know, myexperience is that if you say to
(29:20):
a genuinely good chap whohasn't realized what they've done,
if you just say. Can I justsay to you what you just said, how
it makes me feel? And nobodycan disagree with how you feel. And
so they can't say, I didn'tsay that. It's not about that. It's
like when you do that, this ishow it makes me feel. And I'm sure
you didn't mean it, but, youknow, is there a different ways of
(29:42):
putting things? And genuinely,most people, male and female, are
mortified if they know that'show you feel after they've done something.
And I think it's about sayingit at the right time in the right
place in the Right style andnot embarrassing somebody, but actually
being quite strong aboutsaying the way you do that. This
is how it makes me feel, andyou're demotivating me, you know,
(30:05):
or whatever. I think that's areally good tactic. You could be
more aggressive and say, thelast time somebody said that to me,
they lost their job. But Idon't generally think that's a good
tactic.
It sounds like you have saidthat, Susie.
No, no, I haven't, because Iwas too. I was too meek and mild,
really. And I think that. Ithink that I spent too much time
(30:25):
thinking, look, I don't reallylike confrontation. So it's like,
do you really want a massiveargument? Do you really want to take
this somewhere and threatenyour career and be seen as a troublemaker?
When you're juggling all thisand your two children and this and
this and this, it's like, Ijust can't be bothered. I'll just
put up with that. And ofcourse you shouldn't. But I think
as I got older and I didn'thave to worry about. And the great
(30:48):
thing about starting your owncompany is you dictate the culture.
You absolutely can dictate theculture. And that was a real opportunity,
I thought, to be able tocreate a culture of what it should
be like at work. And that wasa big draw for starting my own company.
Interesting. Do you mindsharing just one or two things that
(31:08):
you practically did to shapethat culture? It sounds like it's
something you were reallypassionate about. And you said already
how you punished people inthe, you know, in a kind way. But
you. You were very strict ifthey were emailing on the weekend.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the firstthing to do is. Yeah, so it's create
your brand. So, you know, wecreated this brand. It was a bit
(31:29):
disruptive, which is great.And then what I did was write two
pages of what this brand was,what it meant. So, you know, most
people say we are customerfacing. Yeah, but what does that
mean? So basically, we wrotethese things that said customer facing
means if somebody's rude onthe phone, you're not rude back.
You just say, how can I helpyou? What can I do? You know? So
(31:51):
we gave people these things.If somebody's abusive, you refer
them to me and I'll deal withthem. Because you're not supposed
to part with that work. If thephone's ringing, you have to pick
it up after three rings.Doesn't matter if it's for you or
not. We need to beresponsible, you know, so it's all
these things about we want tobe the best customer facing company.
And this is what it means ifyou do that, right? So you set all
(32:13):
that out and then we do whatyou call tone of voice. So our tone
of voice is informal, but it'sfriendly, we don't use jargon, etc.
Etc. And then that criticalthing is who you recruit. So we used
to do adverts that never askedfor qualifications ever. Never, never.
Because we didn't need, wedidn't need them. We just trained
people in how we did things.And then at interview we get hundreds
(32:37):
of people applying and then atinterview we go, what's your favorite
film? What do you do withthis? Have you got a dog? You got
any kids? Have you got this?Really trying to understand people's
behaviors and attitudesbecause if they, if they go, can't
stand people, Can I be in aroom where I don't really interact
with anybody? Somewhere you'renot, it's not going to work for you
here. So we're trying to teaseout what sort of people, you know,
(33:00):
behaviors were, didn't carewhere they'd come from, didn't care
about their experience. And Ithink too much recruitment is done
on, you know, what job you hadlast and what qualifications you've
got. Was actually recruitmentneeds to be about somebody's attitude,
behaviors, you know, what,what drives them. And that's what
(33:20):
made us super, superprofitable. People just love being
at work, honestly. That'sgenuinely true. They just loved it.
But they had to stop once theyleft work. They stop and then it
come back to it the next day.So it's creating those, you know,
how we do things around here.And that's led, always led from the
top, always, always led fromthe top. So you can imagine Trump,
(33:44):
right, interesting, some ofthe things he's doing, but actually
I know I can feel what hisstyle is like and I can feel you
can see the people who he'srecruited around him and how that
brand and how that style isgoing to be. Now, I'm not suggesting
it's wrong, I'm not suggestingit's right, it's not my style at
all. But you can feel it's gota very strong brand and it's going
(34:04):
to drive that through. If youlook at the UK at the moment, hard
to see, hard to see what thatbrand is. Nobody quite knows what
that's about or how theyexpect it to behave or. And you can't
drive forward things unlesspeople are in on the game plan with
you. And they're prepared tohold your hand and drop off the cliff
if you have to, because theytrust you know what you're doing
(34:27):
and they believe in whereyou're going. You know, Trump's really
good at that. No matter whatyou think about him, he's, you know,
he creates this vision ofwhere he's going to go, and people
either join him or they don't.That's what you have to do with your
own brand. People will want toknow what the plan is, how's it going
to work, where do I fit? Andthen they'll come with you.
Absolutely.
(34:47):
I'll probably get assassinated now.
I don't think so. I can'tguarantee, but, you know, it's fine.
Sadly, I don't think you'rethe only one who is sharing thoughts
like this.
No, no, I'm not. I'm notcriticizing it. What I'm saying is
it's, you know, it's a strongbrand that people can get behind
and, you know, you need to dothat. Mine was, you know, very particular
about how he did things. Andyou would draw great people to you,
(35:12):
people who think like you andpeople who want to behave like you
if you do that.
Absolutely. Do you think yourcaring experience, bringing up family
shaped the type of leader youbecame in any way?
Yeah, I do, actually, becauseI think that it's an awful thing
to say what you learn whenyou're bringing up children, it's
(35:34):
the hardest job in the world.Of course, there are lots of parallels
that you can use in your workabout how you get people to do things,
you know, how you get peopleon side, you know, the sort of behaviors
and things and how youovercome those. So I think you can
learn a lot out of being aparent, you know, male or female,
that you can use in yourbusiness life.
(35:55):
Looking back, just, I want topick up on this. The way that you
set boundaries with emails andbeing very strict, that must have
been a really tough thing todo because obviously you were Versando.
He had a big vision for yourcompany. You were ambitious. How
did you practically giveyourself permission to just be strict
(36:16):
with emails and not check ifthat big partner of yours had replied
over the weekend? Or was itsomething that you just easily did?
It wasn't a problem.
It's my company, I can do whatI like. You set the rules, you set
the boundaries, you know, andif somebody replies to me at holiday,
we just go, why are youlooking at emails on holiday? Don't
do that. Don't you do thatagain. It's just not supposed to.
I think it was reallyinteresting because when. So Ernst
(36:38):
and Young bought my company,it's multi, multi billion pound company
and one of the things theysaid is, right, we're doing inventory.
Typical thing of buyout, do aninventory of all your kit that you've
got, blah, blah, blah. So whatabout laptops? You know, how many
laptops have you got on? Whatsecurity have you got for people
working at home? I've got anylaptops. What do you mean? I'm going
laptops. So people aren'tallowed to work at home now. That
(37:00):
was not the time when you'renot allowed to work from home. This
is. People aren't allowed tofinish their day and take their laptop
and do more work. So we don'thave any. And they thought I was
joking. So it's just, youknow, and if you've got great people,
I want them to be full ofenergy. We had such a low level of
sickness because peopleweren't tired. You know, work is
(37:23):
a small part of your life andactually you get amazing productivity
out of people doing that. Andthe other thing we did is we did
a four and a half day week.Everybody finished at one o'clock
on a Friday. And it meant thatsome of the dads who didn't pick
their kids up from schoolmeant they could pick their kids
up from school one day a week.The younger ones could go off drinking
straight away at Fridaylunchtime, that's what they wanted
(37:46):
to. Or you could pick up, youknow, your little ones and all go
off for the weekend and beatthe traffic. But it meant you had
to squeeze those hours intofour and a half days a week. We ran
a trial because it's not easyif you're doing childcare to make
that work. And then it was upto everybody to decide how that would
work across the teams, whatyou would do, blah, blah. And then
(38:06):
after three months, everybodyvoted to carry on doing it because
they loved it, but it didn'taffect anything, didn't affect anything
at all. Didn't affect clientsatisfaction. People still got all
their work done. It was fine.
Fantastic. And that was stillbefore the big wave of everyone advertising
the four day week as a reallypowerful thing. So, yeah, well done
for people.
And obviously before,obviously before COVID when people
(38:29):
are forced to work at home,everybody came into the office. We
didn't have anybody working athome. And of course during COVID
that would have had to havechanged, but I didn't have to deal
with that particular issue.Thank the Lord.
I'm sure that was. You wereglad about that. I find that really
curious and I, to be honest, Ican't understand it to an extent.
Maybe that's the lifeexperience. What I find really curious
(38:51):
is how you manage to say nowis enough. And especially as someone
who is responsible for all thesalaries of all these people working
for you, the incomegeneration, how you. I can get. I
get the practicalities and Ithink I'm quite similar in finishing
emails. And again, it's aluxury of running your own organization.
(39:14):
But I've talked to a lot ofCEOs who said it's really tough to
know because nobody's givingyou a job description. It's tough
to know when you've doneenough, when it's okay to take an
afternoon off and go to the hairdressers.
But you see, so we had fixedholidays, you know, people have got.
I don't know what it was, 25days a year, great, go and take your
(39:35):
holiday. But you're notallowed to carry them over, you need
to take them. So if that'swhat you want to do, fine. The fact
is you get four and a halfdays a week means that, you know,
do your deliveries that arriveon Friday afternoon or whatever it
is. I think what's reallyinteresting, Verena, is a lot of
people will say that peoplelike faff about a lot, you know,
(39:57):
or have a chat at work orwhatever was really interesting with
us, the office was not withoutlaughter, but what's really interesting
for us, it's like I have tocrack on because at 5 o'clock I've
got to go and I'm not allowedto do any more. And that's why people
were so productive, becausethey're going, they had to have lunch.
That's half an hour for lunch,minimum an hour at lunch. Nobody
(40:18):
was allowed to sit at theirdesk for lunch to go somewhere else.
And people were reallyconcentrating on what they're doing.
And actually it was surprisinghow much work people got through.
I reckon if we didn't havethose things in place and people
working at home and answeringemails, I don't think they do any
more work than they were doingbecause you just think, oh, I'll
have another cup of tea. Oh,I'll have a chat with Brenda next
(40:41):
to photocopier because I'm abit bored. Was that they just. They
were really cracking on, whichcreates a great energy and buzz,
actually.
Absolutely.
It's really not that hard. Whyis it hard? I don't understand why
it's hard it just comes fromthe top.
It's great to hear that in aweek where it's all over social media.
The whole idea that you, youknow, some big tech company saying
(41:05):
everyone needs to stop workingfrom home. Obviously now working
from home is, is standard.People saying you should stay in
the office. All our sock gotsent. Especially in some big famous
American companies that I'mnot gonna name. Well, exactly. So
that's great to have your story.
We were doing, you know, with25 people, we were doing a million
net profit. A million netprofit. So we're doing like 40% net
(41:27):
profit. None of thosecompanies are making that type of
profit. So you tell me who'swrong then or who's right? It's just
rubbish. And you know, I justdon't, I just don't think that sort
of thing's helpful. I wouldn'twant my staff working from home all
the time. Because you need tocreate, you know, how do you dictate
culture, how do you dictateteam? How do you dictate people working
(41:49):
together, innovation,whatever, if they're not seeing each
other? And I think, you know,to say you need to work three days
a week from the office I thinkis perfectly reasonable. Perfectly
reasonable.
I'm sure differentorganizations have different approaches.
It depends on the job, ifthat's what works for them. Of course
it depends.
You've got your culture.
Yeah, depends on the job. Imean, my daughter is a, a lawyer
(42:10):
for a big tech company and shehas. Her job was advertised as completely
remote and she works remotelybecause she works. It's a global
position, so there isn'tanywhere to sit, if you know what
I mean. And so that's a workfrom home job. But, you know, for
me it'd be very hard todictate culture and get a great team
going. And also making sureyou're looking after your staff and
(42:30):
that you can see if somebody'sgot too much work or it's not working.
How do you see that ifsomebody's in a home, in their bedroom.
And I think the other thingthey forget is a lot of younger people
may have moved to a city for anew job. Don't really know anybody
sitting on Some makeshiftdesk, even sitting on their bed because
(42:51):
they don't have any room andnot coming into contact with anybody,
you know, I don't think that'shelpful when it's your first role
or, you know, you want tounderstand what the business is doing.
So perfectly reasonable to sayyou need to be in work a certain
Number of days working all thehours God sends. No, no, no, no.
(43:13):
Abolutely, And I find goinginto the office or in my case into
central London very practicalbenefit is that it's easy to get
the step count up just bygoing on the public transport. But
I have to be very organizedand go out in the rain when I'm home.
So I want to ask you one lastquestion which is is there any advice
(43:36):
that has really influenced youin terms of combining an ambitious
career with young children?
Oh, good question. No, I don'tthink there has been. I think the
thing that you should do isfind yourself a really great mentor.
Find yourself somebody, notsomebody, you know, famous or thrusting
(43:59):
or whatever, but somebody youadmire and somebody who's, who's
got the right sort of cultureand is a little bit further ahead
than you and just ask if youcould, you know, spend an hour with
them every month or two monthsand just get some feedback and just
do some confidential stuffabout how did you manage to do this
and what do you think I shoulddo that? And I think that is the
(44:21):
most helpful thing because youwill choose somebody that fits your
style and you know, maybe isin your sector and most women are
very happy to do that if it'snot very onerous and you know, I
would do that. I'd want tohelp somebody and I think that's
the best advice you can getand that's, that's just be true to
(44:41):
yourself, give yourself a break.
That's excellent advice. I'mgoing to have a conversation with
you after we've gone off-airto see if I can recruit you as a
mentor for the leaders pluscommunity. But I won't make you say
yes or no while it's all recorded.
Do you know the great thingabout getting older? You know, the
answer is no. There you go.
(45:02):
Well, but I love the freeing.I love the way that, or even before
we came on recording I just, Isaid it's to all my guests, I say,
you know, we can cut thingsout if you don't like it. It's not
going to go out just to makeyou comfortable. And you were like,
I don't care. You can, it'sreally lovely. And that's what, where
I want to get. I still care abit too much. So my aim is to be,
to be like you. When I, when Ifinish my ..
(45:25):
Verena, I don't have a careerso it can't get ruined because I
don't have one.
Well, you have a change makercareer now, so that can still go
badly wrong if you do it badlywrong. Well, not to scare you, but
I'm going to finish with aquestion that we ask of all our guests,
which is can you share threepractical things which take less
than five minutes that someonewho hears this and wants to combine
(45:46):
a big career with youngchildren should consider trying out
this week and if nothingcomes, try out this week.
Put something in your diaryfor an hour so people think you're
going for a meeting and go anddo something for you. That's my advice.
That's excellent advice. Thankyou so much.
Anything, even if it's lyingin a dark room or having a sleep,
(46:07):
go and do something for you.Look after you.
That's excellent and veryimportant advice. Thank you so much.
Susie, it's been absolutelyinspiring to chat to you. I appreciate
you taking the time.
It's no problem at all.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Ferina Hefty and I'll be delighted
(46:30):
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
(46:51):
Most of the top chargingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast our fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same then please head over to
leadersplus.org/Fellowship inorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combineambitious career with young children
(47:14):
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children. For much too
long, amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
the same stale, often malemiddle class people leading our organizations.
(00:33):
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
a better place. Outside of thepodcast. I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
(00:56):
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
such as on returning frommaternity leave, shared parental
leave, securing a promotion,dealing with workload challenges,
or managing as a dual careercouple. We also have an award winning
(01:17):
fellowship community which isglobal for working parents who have
big dreams for their careersbut don't want to sacrifice their
family. You'll join anabsolutely wonderful group of people,
a very tight knit, supportivegroup of parents who have your back.
Together You'll explore whatyour career aspirations are and you'll
get advice from senior leaderswho are also working parents about
(01:39):
how to achieve thoseaspirations. You'll get new ideas
to combine your hopes for yourcareers with your hope for your family
and you are supported bypeople who are experiencing what
you're experiencing yourself.I'm really delighted that a larger
majority of our fellows havemade tangible changes following the
program, be that becoming moresenior in their roles, working shorter
(02:01):
hours, having better flexibleworking arrangement. They always
impress me so much with thecourage that they instill in each
other to do what is right forthem without apologizing for having
a family or apologizing forwanting that top job. Details are
on leadersplus.org Fellowship.Today I'm Chatting to Suzy Warren
(02:24):
Smith about guilt. Aboutdealing with assumptions and her
story of building amulti-million pound business as well
as bringing up a family. Enjoythe conversation.
So my name is Susie WarrenSmith. I was born in London and I've
been in marketing all my lifebut I am quite an entrepreneur so
(02:48):
I have started a couple ofcompanies and the final one I started
I sold in 2020 and all throughthat period I've worked all my Life.
I've had two children, and Ithink I've learned a few things about
how you juggle that.
I bet. So do you sell itduring the pandemic or just before
the pandemic?
(03:08):
So, Verena, if you want tolook at how lucky somebody is, I
sold it on the 31st of March, 2020.
Oh, really? Well, that's why Iwas intrigued. That was not a bad
move, to be fair.
It takes a long time to sell acompany. So it had been going along
for nine months, but deadlinewas pretty fortuitous.
(03:28):
Well done. I'm gonna ask you aquestion that I ask all of our guests,
which is can you share withour listeners one thing that you
used to believe aboutcombining a big career with children
that you don't subscribe to anymore?
I've listened to a couple ofyour podcasts, Verena, and when people
say you can have it all, itjust can't. It's just not true. That's
(03:50):
why.
Is it something that youalways knew or you changed your mind
about that?
I think that I was brought upto believe that you had to be a.
This is really old fashioned,right? You had to be a good wife
and a good mother, and thatwas probably your sort of reason
for being so. Bearing in mindI was born in 1961, so this is so
(04:12):
obviously getting on a bit.But I wanted to have a career too,
and I didn't really see anyrole models for that in TV programs
or radio or films. So I findit quite hard to understand how you
would do that as well. But itdid seem to me that there are three
areas of my life, you know,work, mum, husband, you know, being
(04:33):
a wife. And therefore I feltlike I had to balance all those three
things, be good at all thosethree things all the time. And if
one was failing, like, thenmaybe all of them were failing. And
I think that's what I wasbrought up to believe. And in those
days, for example, my mumthought it was an absolutely terrible
thing to go out to work if youwere a mother, bearing in mind she
(04:54):
worked her whole life as well,Verena, but for her, you know, doing
like a few hours a week,that's okay. And then my. My husband's
mum, who's very old fashioned,Lancashire lady, lovely lady, but
she wasn't happy that I wasgoing out to work when I had two
children. So I think whatpeople tend to do, and I do see it
(05:15):
still happening now, is womentend to play down the fact they're
at work or they don't boastabout their achievements because
they don't want people tothink they're putting a lot of effort
in, because the de facto ofthat is it means that you're not
doing other things well. And Ithink the pressure of that is quite
enormous.
(05:38):
And when you mentioned thatyou have to accept that you can't
have it all and you have to.It sounded like you actually have
to come to peace with lettinggo some things. If I understood that.
Right, what. What did youdecide to let go, if anything?
(05:58):
I wouldn't. Yeah, yeah.
And your children are stillalive, I'm assuming.
Yeah, yeah. They're not drugaddicts or in prison, so that. That
went reasonably well. So,yeah, you don't sort of look at those
three things and go, right,I'm just. I'm going to be a rubbish.
I'm going to be a rubbishpartner to somebody, you know, my
private life, you know,that's. That's awful. And they go,
like, I just will. The kidswill just have to fend for themselves.
So it's not. You don't chooseone of those things or two of those
(06:22):
things above. Above the threeof them. So I think for me, it's
like, well, you have to acceptyou can't do them all brilliantly.
You can't. So give yourself abreak. Don't. Look, all the ridiculous
media things that are outthere at the moment, stuff online
and, you know, celebritieslike, I don't know, Gwyneth Paltrow
(06:42):
or, you know, Meghan Markledoing all this sort of stuff where
their house is beautiful andthe sunlight streaming through the
windows and they're. They'remaking amazing things, you know,
for their children. It's like.Well, it's not just not like that.
Most families are complete andnothing chaos, you know. So, you
know, if you haven't. If youhaven't managed to do all the washing
(07:02):
that week and you're sort oftrying to look at, can they wear
that twice, you know, thatsort of thing, or. I don't know,
you know, just. Just giveyourself a break and just think of
the fact that you can do 80,90% of it, you can't do 100% of it
right all the time. But theimportant thing for me, I think stress
comes when you feel thosethree things are out of balance.
(07:26):
So if you have got a partneror, you know, your friends are very
important to you and you don'tfeel you're giving that enough time
over the other things thatmakes you stressed, or if you think
the children are overridingsomething and you're perhaps not
going to some of the meetingsor some of the things you should
do at work, that will make youstressed. And I think trying to find
a balance across the three iswhen you're going to be happiest.
(07:48):
You can't do it, all right?You can't. So, like, give yourself
a break and accept you have.You just can do the best you can
do.
That sounds great. Like,Garrett, great advice in theory.
In practice, how do you. Ifyou. And I think a lot of listeners
will really resonate with thisidea of it being out of kilter at
different points in the day,never mind different points in the
(08:09):
week, how do you give yourselfa break or rejig things and accept
that maybe you're not going tobe there? The swimming, or maybe
this week they miss swimmingbecause you just need a break.
To be honest, I don't reallycare. It's what you think. So, you
know, if I didn't turn up tomy daughter's, I don't know, ballet
(08:30):
thing, would she reallynotice? I mean, I don't know. You
know, if you were there, notjust. Not one of the weeks, I suppose
so, you know, you don't haveto be there all the time, really.
Have a good look at yourselfand think about what you can get
away with. I suppose what willbe an acceptable level that you'll
feel okay with, but you can'tdo everything. And the other piece
(08:51):
of advice, it's very hard whenyou've got little amount of time.
The other piece of advice, Iwould say is you must do something
for yourself during the week.You must do that. And for me, I used
to play squash because it wasviolent. I could get rid of all this
aggression, all these peoplethat would drive me mad. But it might
be you. Just like, I'm justgonna get my nails done just once
(09:13):
a week. That is going to be myhour to myself or whatever is your
thing. So try and giveyourself some time. The other big
lesson I learned is, is notgoing to happen at your whole life.
They go. They grow up and theygo away. So it is. Sometimes you
feel like your whole life'sgoing to be like that, but actually
(09:34):
it is a temporary thing, youknow, and your children need you
for different reasons atdifferent times. But, you know, eventually
they do go away. Just wait forthat day. I'm the best mother now.
They're not here.
I resonate a lot of what yousaid. I'm curious about this point
(09:55):
of being faced with otherpeople's expectations and you might
say yes. You know, obviouslyit was a few years ago where you
had grandmothers having veryclear expectations of a good mother,
stays at home. But you'd besurprised. You still. I still hear
that a lot from the fellows inour Fellowship program in that there
are, you know, their parentsor even their peers at the school
(10:16):
gate look at them a bitstrangely because they are maybe
choosing to work full time ormaybe choosing to not be there at
every drop off and pick upbecause, oh, well, they actually
have a partner, some of them,and so they are sometimes at a drop
off and pick up or they chooseto send them to breakfast or after
school club. So. But there'sstill that guilt because someone
(10:37):
else is telling you this isnot how you're supposed to be a mother
or a father. How did you dealwith that? Was that just, are you
just a really strong personand it didn't really get to you?
I wish. I mean, yeah, ofcourse I did suffer guilt. I think
the great thing about gettingolder, and trust me, there are not
many great things aboutgetting older, is that you don't
care anymore. And actually, asI got older and the kids go out,
(10:59):
I really couldn't care less.And I think you have to stop worrying
about what other people thinkof you because it gets in the way
and just work out what youthink is right because that's all
that matters. I used to feelterribly guilty that my kids, you
know, sometimes I was the lastperson to pick them up after school
club because, you know, therewas a crash on the motorway or the
(11:21):
train was late or something.They're fine. They don't even remember.
And I think the thing you mustremember as a woman who's working
is that you are a great rolemodel. Whether you like it or not,
those kids are watching youand your partner, I'm sure. Get up
every day, get washed, getdressed, look good, have some breakfast,
(11:43):
go out the door, get somework, you earn some money, you forge
your own way in life. They'rewatching that all the time and they're
surrounded by it. And youknow, it's really interesting. One
of my daughters is a stay athome mom. She absolutely loves it.
The other one is a hotshotlawyer. They had exactly the same
upbringing and they're bothfine with what they're doing now.
They're both happy with whatthey're doing and managing to make
(12:05):
it work in their own way. Soyou're not gonna, you're not gonna
destroy your kids by going outto work. It's the same..
Thank you for saying that. Iwas just thinking everyone needs
to hear that. But it's alsofunny how time plays such an important
role because I think a lot ofthe listeners who are right now,
I don't know when this will begoing out, but it might well be around
(12:28):
World Book Day and, you know,last minute, oh, my goodness. My
child doesn't have a costumegoing in. In a tea towel. My children
definitely are in thatcategory. I have three. So, you know,
the detail orientation is notthat tight anymore.
I hate that. When you opentheir school bag and you go, oh,
no, I was supposed to make acake last night. God, you know, it's
(12:49):
all that. It's like, quick, godown Sainsbury's, get some cakes,
bash it in a little bit, looklike it's homemade. You. That's just
what we do. It's fine. It's funny.
The expectations have risen aswell. So even today I got a text.
Luckily, I don't get alltexts. Some. Some go to my partner.
But I got a text from schoolsaying, oh, yeah, tomorrow we have
to bring in a baby photo. Ihave no idea where the baby photos
(13:09):
of my children are. So we haveto. I'm going to choose wisely of
whether or not I'm going tospend time digging them up and so
on. Yeah. So there aredifferent expectations, I think.
I think. I think schools havegot to take a look at themselves
as well. I think, think moreand more they're saying that parents
do this, parents that, andparents do, you know, the other.
And I don't think a lot ofteachers understand what it is like
going to work and organizingall those things. And sometimes they're
(13:32):
making unrealistic demands.And if you think those demands are
unrealistic, you say, look,you know, I mean, I used to have
to travel abroad sometimes. Iwasn't there. So, you know, husband
has to do things like. And youjust say, I'm sorry, the kid hasn't
got it. So, you know, I mean,I remember one of my kids said, you
have to write about your pet.We don't have any pets. So she said,
what should I write about? Isaid, don't. Don't write about it.
(13:53):
Just say, I don't have anypets. Write something else.
It's a great teacher. I thinkthat's homework.
Well, it's a bit unrealistic,you know, and I think teachers sometimes
should be a bit more cognizantof, you know, both partners working,
which is always difficult, youknow, or, you know, the dad's at
Home's got a slightlydifferent perspective on things,
or, you know, whatever itmight be. You've got a really mixed
(14:15):
family. I don't seem to betaking any notice of that. And I
think sometimes you just haveto stand up for yourself and say,
I don't think this isrealistic, or, I couldn't do it.
What are they going to do? Youcan't be perfect. You can't be a
perfect mum and go to work.You just can't.
I mean, I would not be perfectmum staying at home. In fact, I probably
would be the absoluteopposite. Oh, yeah.
Could never stop home. Oh,could you imagine it? I don't know
(14:37):
how my daughter does it. Shedoes it. She's amazing. I'd be a
terrible mother. I'd be awful.I'd shout at them all the time. They'd
get on my nerves. I'd beterrible, awful, you know, and. And
going out for work for me wasimportant for myself. I think you
need to set yourself somerules, though. And. And one of the
things I used to do is, yeah,I might work late when the kids are
(14:58):
in bed, or they might go seeafter school club or whatever, but
I never, ever worked at theweekends. Never. It's like, no, this
is family time, you know, andtry and never answer emails. Never
do any of those things. Andwhen I set up my company, it was
an offense. You would getdisciplined if you answered your
emails at the weekend or inthe evening. Just not allowed. Do
(15:20):
your work at work and then athome, you're at home, you know, so
carve some time out. And Ithink that, you know, that was like
a good rule, really. We're allhere as a family together at the
weekends. It's difficult ifyou've got a job that's, you know,
I don't know, shift work orsomething, but. But try and carve
out some days that are family days.
(15:41):
When I Look at your LinkedInprofile, I think it's the. It's basically
that. It's the descript. It'sthe definition of a big career. I
think you even got. I shouldhave remembered this, but you've
even got a. What is it?Commander of the British Empire or
something like that. I'msorry, I'm not. I'm Swiss, not British,
so I can never remember whatthe different things are. But basically
it's a very. For theinternational listeners, you've got
(16:02):
a very famous, very seriousaward from the Queen for being brilliant.
For services to small business.
There you go. So, like, youdon't get that Unless you have a
very, very stellar career.
Or you're a politician.
Well. Oh, yeah, that's a wish,but yes, well, I think that's true.
(16:26):
Skate over that Verena. Yeah.
Or. Yeah, I think there aresome, some people who get it, obviously,
as. As favors, but I'm surenot in your case. That will be a
whole different podcast about the.
I don't know any posh. I don'tknow anybody posh. So, yeah, it's
highly unlikely.
Oh, no. Well, now, you know,doesn't that make you posh, on a
(16:46):
side note, automatically tohave this sort of.
I think what's beeninteresting, having cbe, because
it is. It is an honour andit's very well recognized in the
uk. I think what that allowsme to do is I do quite a lot of charity
work. It allows me to get inand do things which possibly you
couldn't. People tend toanswer your emails, whereas they
never used to. And I justthink it manages to leverage Internet
(17:10):
Works and Things Where youwant to make a difference. And that's
been very helpful and I thinkslightly conflicted about whether
you should accept it or not.But, you know, if it helps you further
the, you know, the sort of. Imean, I do a lot of things about
women in business and helping,you know, mentor entrepreneurs and
things, particularly women,then that's good. It's a good thing.
(17:33):
So just be pragmatic about it.
Absolutely. It's about purposein the end. So your career is stellar,
your children turn out well from.
Well, they might not say.
Please write In children ifyou don't agree, but I'm sure, I'm
sure they did. And you seem atpeace. I mean, I'm. I don't mean
to be psychologists or makethis sound very esoteric, but you
(17:56):
seem like you're okay with howthings went and I'm just interested
now, in hindsight. Were thereany moments where you almost threw
in the towel and said,actually, this is too hard, I can't
combine a bakery with youngchildren. I'm just gonna give up.
Loads sometimes. Of course,yeah. So I wrote this autobiography
called Swimming on My Own,which I don't want to make money
(18:17):
out of, so it's on Kindle andif you go onto Spotify, you can listen
to it for free, but you canalso buy it off Amazon. And I really
wanted to tell other womenwhat it was like going through those
periods when sometimes there'sa crunch time and sometimes you just
don't think you can put onestep in front of another and carry
(18:39):
on. Now that Soundsmelodramatic, but I think sometimes
we do all hit that point. AndI really wanted to write that because
I wanted to explain how Imanaged to get over those things
and how I managed to just keeppushing forward. Not particularly
ambitious. I know it soundsweird, but I just, for my. I think
I wanted to prove things tomyself because I grew up in a really
(19:02):
poor background and, you know,my, my parents weren't educated and
weren't helpful and so I just,I don't know, I just wanted to prove
it to myself. I didn't haveany external pressure. And so I specifically
wrote it and recorded itbecause I was hoping it might just
sometimes help other peoplethrough. Hopefully people find it
(19:22):
funny as well because thereare some incredibly funny things.
Oh my God. I made dreadfulmistakes in business, but it's tough.
It's tough. But actuallycoming out the other end of it, it's
just a great place to be, youknow, if you've worked hard and you've
managed to cough yourself outa career and you bought some lovely
children, you should be reallyproud of yourself. Really, really,
(19:45):
really proud of yourself. Youare one of the greatest global citizens
there are, you know, And Ihave four grandchildren now. Very
interesting to see themgrowing up. So five year old, four
year old, three year old, twoyear old, you think your house is
a mess. If you've got twochildren, you see what it's like.
I've got four grandchildrenand it'd be very. So three of them
(20:06):
are girls. Very interesting tosee, you know, how they grew up and
what they choose to do. Butnow I'm older, I'm retired, I don't
really work, I just dovoluntary things and do stuff to
help women in business. Andyeah, I feel, really, feel really
relaxed about it. I mean, tobe honest, Farina, part of that is
(20:27):
selling my company formillions and millions of pounds.
It's very easy to be happywhen you never have to work again,
you never have to worry aboutmoney. So I'm in an incredibly privileged
position, but I do believe inpublic service. So payback time and
pay forward time.
Well, thank you and thank youfor making, sharing your story on
this podcast as part of that.And we must put, if you sent me the
(20:51):
link to the audiobook, theSpotify link, we must put it in the
newsletter. It sounds.
Yeah. And then hopefully thathelps people and it doesn't cost
anything.
Yeah. I mean, imagine even nowit's still unusual for someone who
founds and grows companiesreally successfully to be a woman,
especially the woman withCaring responsibilities at the time,
did you face any stigma,especially when you went for investment,
(21:14):
or not so much?
I didn't go for investmentbecause I knew I wouldn't get it.
So I started my company when Iwas 55, at which point I didn't have
a mortgage and just decided tobet £300,000 on it. And I felt like
I had to. I don't know why Ihad to prove it to myself that I
could do it. Fed up withlistening to other people telling
(21:36):
me how to do things. Fed upwith being ignored and patted on
the head by people who thoughtthey knew better. And I thought I'd
bet it. I thought I'd bet thatamount of money. And then I thought
if it didn't work out, if Iran out of money, I wouldn't ever
go into debt. Then I'd justhave to keep working for another
10 years and keep commuting toLondon or something. But I didn't
(21:58):
go for investment because,Reena, don't think I'd have got it.
And actually I tried to get abank loan. Couldn't get a bank loan.
Makes you laugh when you.You've got a house and everything,
but. And yet, as soon as thebusiness started to be incredibly
successful, guess what?Getting on dated with people asking
if I want a loan, if I wantinvestment. And at that point I didn't
need it, so couldn't get anyof that at all. Women still can't
(22:23):
get it.
So I find it very refreshingthat you did that at 55, which is
fantastic, because the wholeidea that you can do things for a
really long time, assuming youstay healthy, it's quite empowering,
I think, for people who feelright now they're finding it hard
to get things going with young children.
(26:49):
It's a much easier thing to dowhen you're older if you've still
got the energy because youdon't have anything to lose. You
don't have those parentalresponsibilities anymore, and it's
all about you. And I justwanted to give it one last go. And
I gave myself five years andmanaged to do it in five years, so
(27:09):
had nobody holding me back.Not responsible for anybody anymore.
It didn't matter how peoplesaw you, couldn't care less. Sorry.
I spent my whole life worryingabout it. And that is a great thing
about age, actually. But, youknow, don't underestimate trying
to be an entrepreneur whenyou've got bills to pay, you know,
(27:30):
when the pressure's on, that'sreally, really hard. I'd done a Couple
of businesses and it's sort ofjust been okay. But I was making
a living. I wasn't, you know,I wasn't saving any money or anything.
I was just making a living. Sojust flitted between that and corporate
life. But I just wanted to putall the things I'd learned into practice,
see if it would work. Luckily,it did. The timing was good, especially
(27:52):
with the.
Selling a bit for the pandemic.
Yeah, thank you.
That is such a. Yeah, you mustbe very pleased with that. Do you
have, in hindsight, anythingthat you would do differently? Practically,
but, you know, thinking backto the time of combining your children,
when they were still more inthe primary school age or even younger,
(28:13):
I think.
I put up with too much. Yeah,I put up with too much crap, I think.
And I know I don't sound itnow, but then I would. I wouldn't
challenge somebody if Ithought what they were doing was
discriminatory or I wouldn'tstick my head above the parapet.
And I tended to get promotedbecause I was just. I just worked
(28:35):
really hard and I was good atmy job, and I thought that was enough.
And as I got. As I got older,I just realized that wasn't enough.
And people who, particularlymen who were nowhere near as good,
you know, would be part ofthis club where they managed to get
promoted. And I didn't seem tobe part of that club. And. And when
I did get discriminatedagainst hundreds of times, literally
(28:57):
hundreds of times, I didn'treally say anything. And I think
you should now. Difficult whenyou're more junior. But I think there
are ways of doing it which Ididn't understand then. And I don't
think it's about being, youknow, arty about it or aggressive.
I think it's, you know, myexperience is that if you say to
(29:20):
a genuinely good chap whohasn't realized what they've done,
if you just say. Can I justsay to you what you just said, how
it makes me feel? And nobodycan disagree with how you feel. And
so they can't say, I didn'tsay that. It's not about that. It's
like when you do that, this ishow it makes me feel. And I'm sure
you didn't mean it, but, youknow, is there a different ways of
(29:42):
putting things? And genuinely,most people, male and female, are
mortified if they know that'show you feel after they've done something.
And I think it's about sayingit at the right time in the right
place in the Right style andnot embarrassing somebody, but actually
being quite strong aboutsaying the way you do that. This
is how it makes me feel, andyou're demotivating me, you know,
(30:05):
or whatever. I think that's areally good tactic. You could be
more aggressive and say, thelast time somebody said that to me,
they lost their job. But Idon't generally think that's a good
tactic.
It sounds like you have saidthat, Susie.
No, no, I haven't, because Iwas too. I was too meek and mild,
really. And I think that. Ithink that I spent too much time
(30:25):
thinking, look, I don't reallylike confrontation. So it's like,
do you really want a massiveargument? Do you really want to take
this somewhere and threatenyour career and be seen as a troublemaker?
When you're juggling all thisand your two children and this and
this and this, it's like, Ijust can't be bothered. I'll just
put up with that. And ofcourse you shouldn't. But I think
as I got older and I didn'thave to worry about. And the great
(30:48):
thing about starting your owncompany is you dictate the culture.
You absolutely can dictate theculture. And that was a real opportunity,
I thought, to be able tocreate a culture of what it should
be like at work. And that wasa big draw for starting my own company.
Interesting. Do you mindsharing just one or two things that
(31:08):
you practically did to shapethat culture? It sounds like it's
something you were reallypassionate about. And you said already
how you punished people inthe, you know, in a kind way. But
you. You were very strict ifthey were emailing on the weekend.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the firstthing to do is. Yeah, so it's create
your brand. So, you know, wecreated this brand. It was a bit
(31:29):
disruptive, which is great.And then what I did was write two
pages of what this brand was,what it meant. So, you know, most
people say we are customerfacing. Yeah, but what does that
mean? So basically, we wrotethese things that said customer facing
means if somebody's rude onthe phone, you're not rude back.
You just say, how can I helpyou? What can I do? You know? So
(31:51):
we gave people these things.If somebody's abusive, you refer
them to me and I'll deal withthem. Because you're not supposed
to part with that work. If thephone's ringing, you have to pick
it up after three rings.Doesn't matter if it's for you or
not. We need to beresponsible, you know, so it's all
these things about we want tobe the best customer facing company.
And this is what it means ifyou do that, right? So you set all
(32:13):
that out and then we do whatyou call tone of voice. So our tone
of voice is informal, but it'sfriendly, we don't use jargon, etc.
Etc. And then that criticalthing is who you recruit. So we used
to do adverts that never askedfor qualifications ever. Never, never.
Because we didn't need, wedidn't need them. We just trained
people in how we did things.And then at interview we get hundreds
(32:37):
of people applying and then atinterview we go, what's your favorite
film? What do you do withthis? Have you got a dog? You got
any kids? Have you got this?Really trying to understand people's
behaviors and attitudesbecause if they, if they go, can't
stand people, Can I be in aroom where I don't really interact
with anybody? Somewhere you'renot, it's not going to work for you
here. So we're trying to teaseout what sort of people, you know,
(33:00):
behaviors were, didn't carewhere they'd come from, didn't care
about their experience. And Ithink too much recruitment is done
on, you know, what job you hadlast and what qualifications you've
got. Was actually recruitmentneeds to be about somebody's attitude,
behaviors, you know, what,what drives them. And that's what
(33:20):
made us super, superprofitable. People just love being
at work, honestly. That'sgenuinely true. They just loved it.
But they had to stop once theyleft work. They stop and then it
come back to it the next day.So it's creating those, you know,
how we do things around here.And that's led, always led from the
top, always, always led fromthe top. So you can imagine Trump,
(33:44):
right, interesting, some ofthe things he's doing, but actually
I know I can feel what hisstyle is like and I can feel you
can see the people who he'srecruited around him and how that
brand and how that style isgoing to be. Now, I'm not suggesting
it's wrong, I'm not suggestingit's right, it's not my style at
all. But you can feel it's gota very strong brand and it's going
(34:04):
to drive that through. If youlook at the UK at the moment, hard
to see, hard to see what thatbrand is. Nobody quite knows what
that's about or how theyexpect it to behave or. And you can't
drive forward things unlesspeople are in on the game plan with
you. And they're prepared tohold your hand and drop off the cliff
if you have to, because theytrust you know what you're doing
(34:27):
and they believe in whereyou're going. You know, Trump's really
good at that. No matter whatyou think about him, he's, you know,
he creates this vision ofwhere he's going to go, and people
either join him or they don't.That's what you have to do with your
own brand. People will want toknow what the plan is, how's it going
to work, where do I fit? Andthen they'll come with you.
Absolutely.
(34:47):
I'll probably get assassinated now.
I don't think so. I can'tguarantee, but, you know, it's fine.
Sadly, I don't think you'rethe only one who is sharing thoughts
like this.
No, no, I'm not. I'm notcriticizing it. What I'm saying is
it's, you know, it's a strongbrand that people can get behind
and, you know, you need to dothat. Mine was, you know, very particular
about how he did things. Andyou would draw great people to you,
(35:12):
people who think like you andpeople who want to behave like you
if you do that.
Absolutely. Do you think yourcaring experience, bringing up family
shaped the type of leader youbecame in any way?
Yeah, I do, actually, becauseI think that it's an awful thing
to say what you learn whenyou're bringing up children, it's
(35:34):
the hardest job in the world.Of course, there are lots of parallels
that you can use in your workabout how you get people to do things,
you know, how you get peopleon side, you know, the sort of behaviors
and things and how youovercome those. So I think you can
learn a lot out of being aparent, you know, male or female,
that you can use in yourbusiness life.
(35:55):
Looking back, just, I want topick up on this. The way that you
set boundaries with emails andbeing very strict, that must have
been a really tough thing todo because obviously you were Versando.
He had a big vision for yourcompany. You were ambitious. How
did you practically giveyourself permission to just be strict
(36:16):
with emails and not check ifthat big partner of yours had replied
over the weekend? Or was itsomething that you just easily did?
It wasn't a problem.
It's my company, I can do whatI like. You set the rules, you set
the boundaries, you know, andif somebody replies to me at holiday,
we just go, why are youlooking at emails on holiday? Don't
do that. Don't you do thatagain. It's just not supposed to.
I think it was reallyinteresting because when. So Ernst
(36:38):
and Young bought my company,it's multi, multi billion pound company
and one of the things theysaid is, right, we're doing inventory.
Typical thing of buyout, do aninventory of all your kit that you've
got, blah, blah, blah. So whatabout laptops? You know, how many
laptops have you got on? Whatsecurity have you got for people
working at home? I've got anylaptops. What do you mean? I'm going
laptops. So people aren'tallowed to work at home now. That
(37:00):
was not the time when you'renot allowed to work from home. This
is. People aren't allowed tofinish their day and take their laptop
and do more work. So we don'thave any. And they thought I was
joking. So it's just, youknow, and if you've got great people,
I want them to be full ofenergy. We had such a low level of
sickness because peopleweren't tired. You know, work is
(37:23):
a small part of your life andactually you get amazing productivity
out of people doing that. Andthe other thing we did is we did
a four and a half day week.Everybody finished at one o'clock
on a Friday. And it meant thatsome of the dads who didn't pick
their kids up from schoolmeant they could pick their kids
up from school one day a week.The younger ones could go off drinking
straight away at Fridaylunchtime, that's what they wanted
(37:46):
to. Or you could pick up, youknow, your little ones and all go
off for the weekend and beatthe traffic. But it meant you had
to squeeze those hours intofour and a half days a week. We ran
a trial because it's not easyif you're doing childcare to make
that work. And then it was upto everybody to decide how that would
work across the teams, whatyou would do, blah, blah. And then
(38:06):
after three months, everybodyvoted to carry on doing it because
they loved it, but it didn'taffect anything, didn't affect anything
at all. Didn't affect clientsatisfaction. People still got all
their work done. It was fine.
Fantastic. And that was stillbefore the big wave of everyone advertising
the four day week as a reallypowerful thing. So, yeah, well done
for people.
And obviously before,obviously before COVID when people
(38:29):
are forced to work at home,everybody came into the office. We
didn't have anybody working athome. And of course during COVID
that would have had to havechanged, but I didn't have to deal
with that particular issue.Thank the Lord.
I'm sure that was. You wereglad about that. I find that really
curious and I, to be honest, Ican't understand it to an extent.
Maybe that's the lifeexperience. What I find really curious
(38:51):
is how you manage to say nowis enough. And especially as someone
who is responsible for all thesalaries of all these people working
for you, the incomegeneration, how you. I can get. I
get the practicalities and Ithink I'm quite similar in finishing
emails. And again, it's aluxury of running your own organization.
(39:14):
But I've talked to a lot ofCEOs who said it's really tough to
know because nobody's givingyou a job description. It's tough
to know when you've doneenough, when it's okay to take an
afternoon off and go to the hairdressers.
But you see, so we had fixedholidays, you know, people have got.
I don't know what it was, 25days a year, great, go and take your
(39:35):
holiday. But you're notallowed to carry them over, you need
to take them. So if that'swhat you want to do, fine. The fact
is you get four and a halfdays a week means that, you know,
do your deliveries that arriveon Friday afternoon or whatever it
is. I think what's reallyinteresting, Verena, is a lot of
people will say that peoplelike faff about a lot, you know,
(39:57):
or have a chat at work orwhatever was really interesting with
us, the office was not withoutlaughter, but what's really interesting
for us, it's like I have tocrack on because at 5 o'clock I've
got to go and I'm not allowedto do any more. And that's why people
were so productive, becausethey're going, they had to have lunch.
That's half an hour for lunch,minimum an hour at lunch. Nobody
(40:18):
was allowed to sit at theirdesk for lunch to go somewhere else.
And people were reallyconcentrating on what they're doing.
And actually it was surprisinghow much work people got through.
I reckon if we didn't havethose things in place and people
working at home and answeringemails, I don't think they do any
more work than they were doingbecause you just think, oh, I'll
have another cup of tea. Oh,I'll have a chat with Brenda next
(40:41):
to photocopier because I'm abit bored. Was that they just. They
were really cracking on, whichcreates a great energy and buzz,
actually.
Absolutely.
It's really not that hard. Whyis it hard? I don't understand why
it's hard it just comes fromthe top.
It's great to hear that in aweek where it's all over social media.
The whole idea that you, youknow, some big tech company saying
(41:05):
everyone needs to stop workingfrom home. Obviously now working
from home is, is standard.People saying you should stay in
the office. All our sock gotsent. Especially in some big famous
American companies that I'mnot gonna name. Well, exactly. So
that's great to have your story.
We were doing, you know, with25 people, we were doing a million
net profit. A million netprofit. So we're doing like 40% net
(41:27):
profit. None of thosecompanies are making that type of
profit. So you tell me who'swrong then or who's right? It's just
rubbish. And you know, I justdon't, I just don't think that sort
of thing's helpful. I wouldn'twant my staff working from home all
the time. Because you need tocreate, you know, how do you dictate
culture, how do you dictateteam? How do you dictate people working
(41:49):
together, innovation,whatever, if they're not seeing each
other? And I think, you know,to say you need to work three days
a week from the office I thinkis perfectly reasonable. Perfectly
reasonable.
I'm sure differentorganizations have different approaches.
It depends on the job, ifthat's what works for them. Of course
it depends.
You've got your culture.
Yeah, depends on the job. Imean, my daughter is a, a lawyer
(42:10):
for a big tech company and shehas. Her job was advertised as completely
remote and she works remotelybecause she works. It's a global
position, so there isn'tanywhere to sit, if you know what
I mean. And so that's a workfrom home job. But, you know, for
me it'd be very hard todictate culture and get a great team
going. And also making sureyou're looking after your staff and
(42:30):
that you can see if somebody'sgot too much work or it's not working.
How do you see that ifsomebody's in a home, in their bedroom.
And I think the other thingthey forget is a lot of younger people
may have moved to a city for anew job. Don't really know anybody
sitting on Some makeshiftdesk, even sitting on their bed because
(42:51):
they don't have any room andnot coming into contact with anybody,
you know, I don't think that'shelpful when it's your first role
or, you know, you want tounderstand what the business is doing.
So perfectly reasonable to sayyou need to be in work a certain
Number of days working all thehours God sends. No, no, no, no.
(43:13):
Abolutely, And I find goinginto the office or in my case into
central London very practicalbenefit is that it's easy to get
the step count up just bygoing on the public transport. But
I have to be very organizedand go out in the rain when I'm home.
So I want to ask you one lastquestion which is is there any advice
(43:36):
that has really influenced youin terms of combining an ambitious
career with young children?
Oh, good question. No, I don'tthink there has been. I think the
thing that you should do isfind yourself a really great mentor.
Find yourself somebody, notsomebody, you know, famous or thrusting
(43:59):
or whatever, but somebody youadmire and somebody who's, who's
got the right sort of cultureand is a little bit further ahead
than you and just ask if youcould, you know, spend an hour with
them every month or two monthsand just get some feedback and just
do some confidential stuffabout how did you manage to do this
and what do you think I shoulddo that? And I think that is the
(44:21):
most helpful thing because youwill choose somebody that fits your
style and you know, maybe isin your sector and most women are
very happy to do that if it'snot very onerous and you know, I
would do that. I'd want tohelp somebody and I think that's
the best advice you can getand that's, that's just be true to
(44:41):
yourself, give yourself a break.
That's excellent advice. I'mgoing to have a conversation with
you after we've gone off-airto see if I can recruit you as a
mentor for the leaders pluscommunity. But I won't make you say
yes or no while it's all recorded.
Do you know the great thingabout getting older? You know, the
answer is no. There you go.
(45:02):
Well, but I love the freeing.I love the way that, or even before
we came on recording I just, Isaid it's to all my guests, I say,
you know, we can cut thingsout if you don't like it. It's not
going to go out just to makeyou comfortable. And you were like,
I don't care. You can, it'sreally lovely. And that's what, where
I want to get. I still care abit too much. So my aim is to be,
to be like you. When I, when Ifinish my ..
(45:25):
Verena, I don't have a careerso it can't get ruined because I
don't have one.
Well, you have a change makercareer now, so that can still go
badly wrong if you do it badlywrong. Well, not to scare you, but
I'm going to finish with aquestion that we ask of all our guests,
which is can you share threepractical things which take less
than five minutes that someonewho hears this and wants to combine
(45:46):
a big career with youngchildren should consider trying out
this week and if nothingcomes, try out this week.
Put something in your diaryfor an hour so people think you're
going for a meeting and go anddo something for you. That's my advice.
That's excellent advice. Thankyou so much.
Anything, even if it's lyingin a dark room or having a sleep,
(46:07):
go and do something for you.Look after you.
That's excellent and veryimportant advice. Thank you so much.
Susie, it's been absolutelyinspiring to chat to you. I appreciate
you taking the time.
It's no problem at all.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Ferina Hefty and I'll be delighted
(46:30):
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
(46:51):
Most of the top chargingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast our fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same then please head over to
leadersplus.org/Fellowship inorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combineambitious career with young children
(47:14):
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
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