In this episode of the Big Careers, Small Children podcast, Verena Hefti MBE speaks with Sylwia Wołos, Chief Strategy Officer at Ground Truth Intelligence and a Senior Leader Mentor on the Leaders Plus Fellowship Programme.
Sylwia shares her inspiring journey of building a successful career in the demanding field of risk management and compliance while raising three children. She discusses the challenges of navigating the C-suite as a working parent, tackling gender inequality in senior leadership, and breaking the stigma around balancing ambitious careers with family life.
Together, they explore:
- How Sylwia’s upbringing in Poland fuelled her passion for combating financial crime and corruption.
- Practical strategies for managing priorities and setting boundaries as a senior leader and parent.
- The importance of rethinking success and adapting career goals to align with personal values.
- Why parents shouldn’t apologise for balancing family and work responsibilities.
- Tips for effective networking, even as an introvert, and the transformative impact of mentoring.
This heartfelt and insightful conversation offers valuable advice for ambitious working parents striving to progress their careers while prioritising their families.
We hope you enjoy the episode!
In this episode, you will learn:
- How to lead with compassion and embrace flexibility as a parent and leader.
- The significance of redefining success and pursuing a career on your own terms.
- Why mentoring is beneficial for both mentors and mentees.
Show Notes:
- Connect with Sylwia Wołos via her LinkedIn Profile.
- Learn more about the Leaders Plus: Big Careers, Small Children podcast and explore additional resources at leadersplus.org.
- Follow Leaders Plus on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Bluesky.
- Connect with our CEO, Verena Hefti MBE on LinkedIn.
- Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
Our multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowships support parents committed to career growth while enjoying family life. Expertly designed to keep parents on the leadership path, our programme tackles gender pay gap issues and empowers parents to thrive. Learn more here: Leaders Plus Fellowship.
More BCSC episodes you might love:
- {CEO Series} Polly Neate - How to Find Purpose in Your Work
- {CEO Series} Laura Citron – Why the CEO Role is Perfect for Working Parents
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because.
Because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
the same stale, often male,middle class people leading our organizations.
We must change this together.And I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast, I am the CEO and founder
of the social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, shared parental
leave, securing a promotion,dealing with workload challenges,
or managing as a dual careercouple. We also have an award winning
fellowship community which isglobal for working parents who have
big dreams for their careersbut don't want to sacrifice their
family. You'll join anabsolutely wonderful group of people,
(01:28):
a very tight knit, supportivegroup of parents who have your back.
Together. You'll explore whatyour career aspirations are and you'll
get advice from senior leaderswho are also working parents about
how to achieve thoseaspirations. You'll get new ideas
to combine your hopes for yourcareers with your hope for your family.
And you are supported bypeople who are experiencing what
(01:48):
you're experiencing yourself.I'm really delighted that a larger
majority of our fellows havemade tangible changes following the
program, be that becoming moresenior in their roles, working shorter
hours, having better flexibleworking arrangement. They always
impress me so much with thecourage that they instill in each
other to do what is right forthem without apologizing for having
(02:12):
a family or apologizing forwanting that top job. Details are
on leadersplus.org Fellowship.Today I'm chatting to Silvia Wolos
who is a Senior leader mentoron our Leaders Fellowship program
about her story of getting toa C-Suite role about networking as
(02:34):
an introvert and also how tostop apologizing. Enjoy the conversation.
First of all, thank you somuch Verena for having me on this
amazing podcast. It's reallymy pleasure. So my name is Silvia
Wolos and I'm Chief StrategyOfficer at a company called Ground
Truth Intelligence. I have Alovely and very fulfilling career
(02:57):
in a field called riskmanagement and compliance. So what
I have been doing for nearlytwo decades is helping large corporations,
financial institutions,identify and mitigate risk related
to financial crime and theirreputation. So my focus has been
(03:18):
on internationalinvestigations, corporate investigations
and due diligence, which is afascinating and very fulfilling,
it has been a very fulfillingfield for me. Anti corruption, anti
money laundering in the field.And with regards to my family setup,
I have three children agedbetween 7 and 12. We don't have any
(03:41):
pets, three children, myselfand my partner, we live just outside
Brussels for the past four years.
Wonderful. I'm now having apicture in my head of you in a. Yes.
In an office and all verygrown up, but also there being like
a detective hunting downcriminals. It might not be that picture
(04:01):
is right, but it sounds like areally interesting field and one
that I didn't even know existed.
It's fascinating and I have tosay that it's been a source of great
fulfillment and engagement forme. I very often hear that I'm quite
passionate about the topicbecause what goes beyond financial
crime is all what's calledpredicate offense. So all crime that
(04:23):
has victims, real people'svictims, that leads to generating
financial benefits forcriminal, Very often it's organized
crime that they have toessentially launder to enjoy the
benefits of it. So crimes suchas modern slavery, which is a huge
problem or fraud that isimpacting particularly in the uk,
(04:44):
so many of vulnerable peoplein our society, all horrendous crimes
that are happening at a hugescale globally, lead to or are driven
by the desire to financiallybenefit from that crime. Right. Whether
it's arms trafficking, drugstrafficking, anything. So making
it difficult or preventing theabilities for organized criminal
(05:08):
groups to commit the crimes orassist law enforcement in their work
through the work that we do,that our clients do, is an extremely
motivating sector for me towork in. And it is to a large extent
related to my, I think,upbringing and where I come from.
I grew up in Poland in the1980s. I'm Polish by origin and I
(05:30):
had this episode in my lifewhich was in my late 20s. So already
through a systemtransformation in Poland, Whe I
was a child, it was commonpractice for everybody to pay bribes.
Corruption was widespread,huge corruption, but also small corruption,
everyday corruption. It wasjust the way things were. And in
(05:51):
my late 20s, after the systemtransformation, where Poland was
already part of European Unionand you would expect that the petty
corruption, that everydaycorruption, you know, get your spot
at the university, get yourhealthcare and so on would have been
dealt with, but it hasn't. AndI experienced it when I fell quite
ill. I had tuberculosis and Iended up in the hospital. And with
(06:16):
all the stress and emotionsrelated to identifying such a serious
situation, health situation, Ialso had to observe the additional
stress and panic, I guess frommy parents for whom the first thought
was to whom do we need tobring an envelope so you can get
the right treatment? Which ofthe doctors or nurses? And I was
(06:41):
shocked that my parentsgeneration still thinks this way,
even though most doctorsalready at this time would not accept
the bribe obviously, but itjust shows how the sort of cancer
of the society, which iscorruption and financial crime in
more general terms, howpervasive it is. And it takes decades
(07:03):
and generations to change thesituation. My parents did not end
up paying any bribe. I bluntlyrefused and I made it a condition
that I only stay in thishospital for the treatment. If you
do not bring anything toanybody and it's absolutely forbidden
and on top of that illegal, soyou should stop doing that. But yes,
(07:23):
it really fueled my passionfor that topic back in the day and
keeps me going all the time.
I love how your passion comesthrough for this field. And I'm interested
in how you combine such apassionate C-suite role with not
just one or two but threechildren. What do you know now about
combining a big career withyoung children that you didn't know
(07:46):
10 years ago?
It's a difficult questionbecause obviously we evolve as a
person as we grow older, as wehave different life experiences.
So I don't know if there'salways a strict line between what
I know now that I didn't know15 years ago versus what I know now
as a mom, what I didn't knowor what I thought differently before
(08:07):
I had children. I think that'san important factor here that a lot
of our experiences conform us.And being a parent is huge and life
changing experience. But it'sone of the experiences as we go.
For me, it was difficult tobelieve that it's possible to have
a successful professionallife, maybe demanding higher leadership
(08:32):
role at work and be a fullypresent, satisfied, successful parent
at the same time, particularlyto multiple children. And I think
the reason, I'm sure you hearit a lot, that people didn't believe
it's possible before theyactually went and did it. I think
there are multiple reasons forthat. One is the lack of role models
(08:52):
around me. In my childhood mymom did not work professionally.
She looked after fourchildren. Although she did have a
lot of impact on the localcommunity. She volunteered. It was
not called volunteering butshe devoted a lot of her time and
work to community work, whichI think was also influential for
(09:13):
me as well in a positive way.But at work, either there weren't
that many women in higherroles in the organizations I was
part of or they would not talkopenly. There was the, the narrative
around working parents andworking moms especially was very
different. And I think thathas changed in our society significantly.
(09:34):
And obviously it's importantfor fantastic work that you do with
your with Leaders plus butother organizations as well and day
to day conversations to bringit up and change that narrative.
And I think it's so funny howit's so ingrained in us. I want to
go into this, but before I doso thank you so much for helping
to be one of those role modelsby actually volunteering your time
(09:57):
as a senior leader mentor forLeaders plus. I think it's really
important to support others inthat journey because it can be such
a lonely place because notjust do you have to do the work of
being a good career person,good leader, you also have to do
or you want to do the work ofa good enough parent. And then on
top of it's all that work ofgoing beyond society expectations,
(10:18):
putting that puzzle of childsupport care together. And I think
that's where we need moresupport. But it was really interesting
about the point aboutassumptions. So when we came on this
call we started with meapologizing for being late and the
reason was that I just had acall from my son's hospital consultant
(10:39):
which anybody working in theUK and understanding the healthcare
system in nhs, it's reallyimportant that you do not miss a
call. And you said to me,Verena, why are you apologizing?
Surely we should not apologizefor these things. And I know that
in reality, but it's just sointeresting how even I, who have
(10:59):
the luxury of being surroundedby people like you, it's so deeply
ingrained that we need toapologize for taking child related
things during work andespecially if it makes someone late
or so. What do you think needsto change to help people feel at
ease and apologize less fortheir children's stuff?
(11:22):
Very specifically with theword apologize, there's one seemingly
easy tactic but very difficultto implement on ongoing basis. Don't
apologize, thank to the personfor being patient or for waiting
for you. It's the same way.But the result is, I think much more
(11:42):
positive. You're not puttingyourself in a position, you did something
wrong, so you have toapologize. You're actually highlighting
the person has been patient,they waited for you and they understand.
So I think that switch fromapologize to say thank you, I think
it's a good tactic, although Icompletely understand. We are so
(12:02):
ingrained, not through the.Only through the society expectations,
you know, you're late so youshould apologize, but. But also the
language. Right. The languagedefines us to such a huge extent
and consciously managing thisor consciously changing the vocabulary
that we're using, particularlyif we've been using the same phrases
for, you know, 40 years andwe're so used to them, it's a difficult
(12:24):
topic.
Yeah, that's very true. And Ithink in my case there's an extra
challenge because of courseI'm Swiss and so being late, I'm
fully fulfilling thestereotype and I think most Swiss
people are as well. That wouldbe the worst.
I share similar experiences ofbeing the only non-native English
(12:44):
speaker in the meeting room,you know, one of very few or the
only girl in the room. So allthose things actually add up as some
stress factors, I guess. Andit takes a bit of experience and
probably emotionally goingthrough those and turning them into
the positives and into theadvantages of being that only person
(13:06):
of that origin or that genderor the only parent in the meeting
room and what that gives usand how we positively contribute
to the dynamics and the team achievements.
Right, interesting. So how areyou dealing now when you are the
only woman in that meetingroom or even the only person with
caring responsibilities, howare you dealing that now? And has
(13:28):
that changed over the years?
I think it has changed overthe years. It used to be a source
of great stress for me. It'sno longer so it can be sometimes
frustrating. But I'm morevocal about different perception
of certain items or certainproblems that could be related to
(13:52):
how women and men perceivecertain things differently. And there's
value in both points of view.So bringing it up and even highlighting
that maybe the reason I'mmaking this suggestion we should
consider this option isbecause of my gender and because
my different perspective onthe things. So I think vocalizing
(14:13):
it and not shying it away andfor myself, turning into advantage
rather than disadvantage andthinking about this as in a, In a
positive way has probablyimproved my perception of the situation.
But it can be frustrating alittle bit sometimes because there's
still so much work that needsto be done in the business environment
to make sure that women arereceiving the right equal treatment.
(14:40):
The gender pay gap persists inmultiple sectors. Women leadership
styles are perceived slightlydifferently than men's leadership
style. And while a lotpositive change has happened over
the last decade or so inmid-level management roles, the very
senior roles, I think there'sstill a lot to go to make sure that
(15:02):
there's more equal balance.
Yeah, I completely agree. Andfor the UK listeners in the uk, this
year is the first time whenthe gender pay gap has started to
widen again, which is due toresearch that just came out this
week. And I think we do needto change that. And root cause is
that not enough women get tothose senior levels that are well
(15:24):
paid and then on average theyare paid less as a result of that.
What do you think needs tohappen? That more people with caring
responsibilities can be inthose senior roles, Both women, but
also those dads who decide,well, actually I do want to work
part time and being a seniorrole. Just spoke to someone who identifies
themselves as a career dad.They both want a big career and be
(15:46):
a present dad. And at themoment, society doesn't always allow
us to be both.
(17:50):
100% There's the economicalworld and the economical realities
are that we are in the twoincome household models. It's very
difficult to operate on onesalary model these days. But also
women want to have careers.Many women want to be out there,
want to develop and besuccessful at work. But the societal
(18:12):
structures and thinking aboutcare is lagging behind. You know,
care is economically valuablebut is globally undervalued and unfortunately
a lot of careresponsibilities, well, more care
responsibilities fall on womenthan men. So I think the economic
(18:34):
and societal approach to care,the cost of childcare, the cost of
care for elderly, disabled,you know, any dependence in family
environment needs to berethought and improved. But also
the narratives around this andthe flexibility of work and ability
to combine successful careerand care, I think the narrative is
(18:58):
going in the right direction,but it's still not there enough.
And my personal view is thatvery often, obviously complicated
reasons, but very often weourselves need to work first on our
own thinking. How do Iperceive a career? How do I perceive
I'm successful in my career?Is it X title or is it X level of
(19:21):
salary? Is it fulfillment? Isit satisfaction? Is it acting with
integrity? You know, how oftendo you have to be there? Do you have
to be there full time to besuccessful? Or can you feel and show
up as successful in your workwhen you're working three days a
week or four days a week?Right. So I think a lot of people,
and probably that was also myperception before I had children,
(19:44):
why it's impossible to have asuccessful, demanding career because
that sort of single way ofthinking career is working 60 hour
weeks and just working andbeing extremely senior, extremely
wealthy, and that's it. Andwhile you accept that being successful
in your professional life is acombination of lots of different
(20:06):
things and it's not just theworking hours and the title, I think
that would become easier todrive. Also that flexibility and
combining the current career.
Interesting. And yet you dohave a C in your job title. Your
role is a C suite role. Andbecause of that you're an outlier.
(20:29):
Just statistically, the FTSEWomen Leaders Review have shown research
recently that while there'sbeen some improvement on boards at
that C suite level, there'sstill a massive, massive issue. And
I know every organization isdifferent. But looking back at your
story, what do you think werethe turning points that got you to
where you are now? How did it happen?
(20:51):
That's a difficult question.How did it happen? Because it seems
like a natural progression forme from my perspective and maybe
I can't provide more objectivesort of milestones maybe about the
C-suite role and the title. Asyou say, Verena, every organization
is different. Obviously in asmall organization there's different
(21:13):
titles than when you'relooking at an organization of 10,000
people or 25,000 people. Sokeep that perspective in mind. The
title has never been,throughout my working life, important
to me personally. But I doappreciate that it defines us to
many external stakeholders.And it has been a source of frustration
(21:36):
to me when people reactdifferently to you, even though you
have been the same person sixmonths earlier. But your title was
different, your job title wasdifferent. Unfortunately, there is
this social construct of yourrole title or of your title at work.
What got me here, I would saythe passion that I have for the topic
(21:57):
and for the field that I'mworking in, making the world even
a little bit safer and betterplace for us and for future generations.
Seeing that link between whatI do every day, even if it's a tiny,
tiny contribution, it is stilla contribution. Appreciating that
and really being committed tothis, but also finding as I, as I
(22:18):
went through my career, mychildren were born, you know, my
work style, my leadershipstyle, my thinking about myself in
my profession have beenevolving significantly. So remaining
agile, you know, flexible,adjusting easily, and having, I guess
that desire and flexibility todo new things, try new things, do
(22:41):
different things, I think thathas been quite helpful to keep myself
also so engaged because I havehad phenomenal experiences through
my career. My career has beenQuite interesting from the perspective
that I started in research andoperations, but then I had the pleasure
of working with customers,working with regulators, working
with marketing teams, workingwith sales teams, working with finance
(23:04):
teams. So very, very diverseexperiences which just keeps it so
interesting and wants me tokeep on going.
You're now motivating me to gointo risk and anti corruption. It
sounds amazing. Have you hadany thoughts about this leadership
style changing that youmentioned what exactly has changed
(23:26):
in your leadership as a resultof having children?
So I think as a result ofhaving children, and I'm sure most
parents will say the same, youbecome more focused and you just
have to get things donebecause you know you have other priorities.
And you just can't extendreviewing this document until 10pm
(23:47):
because if you leave it forlater, you will have to do it after
9pm and that's not very goodneither for that legal document you're
reviewing or for your mentalhealth and for your physical health.
So getting things done faster,focusing on priorities and not dragging
things that may be making alsodecisions faster, this is the priority.
This is not the priority. Mytime is very precious because I want
(24:11):
to share this time between mywork and my family life. So I need
to make some decisions and notlinger on things as much maybe as
I, as I would in the past. Alittle bit more of compassion, I
guess it's very difficult tobe a leader and for me it was difficult
to be a leader and fully graspand understand what colleagues on
(24:34):
my team and other colleaguesmay be going through who have children,
who have caringresponsibilities. It definitely opened
my eyes. And also to theextent that I try to lead with compassion
and I try to embed thatkindness and remind myself consciously,
you don't know what thisperson is going through at home and
(24:55):
not everybody wants to ornobody has to share this at work.
But when somebody shows upwith low energy and so on, it can
be frustrating and it can benatural to react with, you know,
hey, this is work. Show upyour best 100% of the time. Well,
that doesn't happen toanybody. So having a little bit more
of that understanding andcompassion and kindness, I think
(25:15):
that's important as well. Andwith age and with children, obviously
that's growing me.
Yeah. It's funny how sometimesthe more senior you get, the more
you focus on what reallymatters. But those are also the skills
that you get from. Well, somepeople get from having children.
Not to say that those withchildren are better leaders than
(25:36):
others, but I think there areskills that you get that are applicable
in your field, networking isabsolutely critical. Now it's not
that easy to go to lots andlots of evening networking events
when you have three childrento think about their various commitments
and I'm sure, activities. Howdoes networking look like in your
(25:57):
day to day life? Do you hangout at networking event or what do
you do?
Yes, it's a good question. Ithink it's critical not just in my
field. I think these daysnetworking for the purpose of your
own development, professionaldevelopment, but also personal development.
We learn so much throughconversations and you never know
(26:19):
when a random conversationwith a stranger turns into a life
changing event. So to me it'sbecome a very important part of my
professional life. It was not,I was terrified when I was younger,
I was terrified and very shyin small gatherings and meetings
(26:42):
and I would never start aconversation at the conference. It
was a difficult transition,but it was a learning curve. And
I went through the transitionbecause I started appreciating the
value of that, but alsounderstanding that the folks who
are speakers at the conferenceor others who are at the conference,
(27:02):
many of them are in the sameplace as I am. Many of them also
don't feel comfortable becauseit is not a natural thing for human
beings, for most human beingsto start a conversation with a stranger,
to open up and then learn alittle bit about techniques, how
to do it with ease, you know,how you can open the conversation,
(27:24):
the importance about findingcommon ground and leading from that
point. And also I think thatit's very difficult how to stop the
conversation when you see thevalue is not there, particularly
in the professional environment.
Interesting. So how do youstop the conversation without being
absolutely rude?
(27:45):
It's very tricky, but I thinkbeing honest and polite is the winning
recipe. So everybody who goesto a conference, if there's 100 people
or 300 people, you know thatyou have only little amount of time
and everybody's time is veryprecious. So for example, from business
development perspective, ifyou're discussing with someone, you're
(28:06):
making connection, stayconnected with this person via LinkedIn,
let's say. But maybe it's notthe right place and time to have
a conversation with a givenperson during that very short amount
of time that you have on theday that you are trying to network
for business development andthat person would not follow. Maybe
in the category of, of peopleyou are here to talk to, but remain
(28:27):
connected. And I thinkLinkedIn, as I, as I mentioned the
online networking, I thinkthat's another huge huge platform
that so many people are notbenefiting from. Because they're
just a little bit too shy, youknow, and you don't have to become
a LinkedIn influencerovernight if it's not natural to
you. You can simply start byengaging through comments, through
(28:48):
likes, share some valuablereading material. It happens to me
so often that someone sharessomething that opens my eyes or gives
me a new perspective on adifferent topic or just I learned
something new and I lovelearning new and exciting things,
whether it's, you know, from,from my, my work related or personal
development psychology and soon. And you just bring value to others
(29:12):
and think about it, if there'sone person who gets something positive
from this, then it's worthdoing that on LinkedIn. So there's
multiple techniques, but Ithink a lot of that is understand
the value, understand thateverybody around you is also shy.
Maybe not everybody is agenius who's at the conference. So
(29:32):
you're at the same level. It'sjust the regular conversation and
treat it like that and breakthe ice, maybe get a couple of bits
and pieces of advice, how tobreak the ice, how to start the conversation
and just go with it,
On that getting. It feels tome like there are pieces of advice
that are in the back of yourhead. What's your most trusted way
of starting a conversation? Ifyou're arriving in the morning, perhaps
(29:54):
the children. After screaming,your children might be extremely
well behaved and that mightnever happen in your house, but in
mine that could happen andyou're arriving a little bit dazed
and you know, networking is agood thing and you should be doing
it, but you don't really knowhow to start. How do you open a conversation
with someone?
So, Verena, I have for thepast few years, since I moved to
(30:15):
Belgium, I have extremelysuccessful tactic, Belgian chocolate.
I know we can get probablyinto a Swiss Belgian chocolate debate
here.
Absolutely. I'm happy on that.And may I add, I'm sorry to say the
Swiss will win, but yeah,let's go and move on.
It's funny, but it's a tiny,small thing, but it helps enormously
(30:37):
to break the ice. Andobviously you're not going to show
up online with a box ofchocolates or to every meeting with
a box of chocolate. But try tothink about it as a small, not necessarily
stressful, everyday thing.Everybody loves chocolate, everybody
loves talking about it. Sofind those things that are easy to
bring up and start theconversation and then ask questions,
(30:57):
ask questions and listen.Because only if you ask a few questions
you can find that - What's incommon, what do we Share, whether
it's children or holidaypreference or professional experiences.
Have you been to thisconference or have you read this
article? There's somethingelse that was published. So finding
that common ground is anenormous help in starting a new relationship
(31:22):
or new connection.
I completely agree, and Ithink what comes through your answer
is also the natural curiosity.I am more of an introvert and I generally
do not enjoy networkingevents. But when I go, I'm making
them count. And I do that byjust being very, very curious and
wanting to learn about otherhumans. And sometimes that gives
(31:43):
really interesting connectionsand you learn new things and sometimes
you just had a short chat andthat's okay as well. Not every conversation
has to be absolutely mind blowing.
Exactly.
And are you naturally anextrovert? You're finding those things
easy?
No, I did have to grow intothis and consciously learn. I was
very lucky to receive somespeaking training, presentation training
(32:07):
through my career. I say I waslucky, but I've also asked for a
lot of the support. And Ithink this is also critical. Whether
it's networking or any skillthat you want to develop, ask for
help. Nobody is born afantastic speaker. People just learn
how to do that. Yes, somepeople have maybe easier, you know,
some preference, or maybe somethings come easier to them. But speaking,
(32:30):
networking, those are skillsthat you can simply learn and master
through experience these days.I mean, there's so much knowledge
available at the click of abutton. Online courses, training
videos, TED talks, whateverworks for you. But find the ways
that work for you. Find amentor. And it doesn't have to be
a formal, you know, it'swonderful if you have a formal mentorship
(32:54):
program that you can join, butreach out to people that you've been
admiring, you've beenfollowing. Don't feel intimidated.
From my experience, mostpeople say, sure, I'll spend 30 minutes
with you and I'll help you outwith that. Sure, I'll give you an
hour of my time. I find itsurprising how little people ask
for help in professionalenvironment, especially women and
(33:16):
parents, I guess, for thosesmall things, because you're not
asking for huge amount oftime. And I just actually wanted
to comment on the thing youbrought up because I've had the privilege
and joy to be a mentor throughleaders plus last year. And it's
not just for me, for theperson who's benefiting from the
relationship, from theconversations, from tips and support
(33:39):
and so on. It's hugelybeneficial to mentors volunteering
activities that I've donethrough my life, whether they were
financial, crime related Some,you know, trainings and so on, or
completely unrelatedvolunteering has been documented
as one of the things thatmakes us happy, makes us happier
(33:59):
as humans. It gives us thepurpose, it gives us satisfaction.
You're so happy aboutyourself, you do something positive.
And also you learn so manythings, especially in professional
environment. When you'relooking at mentoring, maybe folks
with, you know, few decades ofexperience and younger generation,
younger generation has so muchknowledge and skills that we don't
(34:20):
have, particularly when itcomes to technology, whether it's
social media, whether it'sother aspects. So trying to bridge
that gap through relationshipwith someone who's different than
you, maybe with different lifeexperiences, can be super enriching
and satisfying also formentors. So I recommend it to everybody
who has not done it. Just gojump at it and it's. It's fun.
(34:41):
Absolutely. And if you do wantto do it on our website, you can
fill in a form if you are asenior leader who wants to support
other working parents and willarrange a quick chat with you. It's.
I think it is reallyimportant. But it's interesting how
what you've done thereactually with the mentoring is you
are diversifying your networkas well. Aside from the happiness
(35:02):
that it creates, there's alsosomething about having opportunities
that give you access todifferent fields, people who have
different life lifeexperience, and that's grounded in
research that that makes apositive contribution to your own
career development. That's notwhy you might do it, but the perspective
you get is absolutelycritical. I think that it's really
(35:25):
surprising how much you knowthat point around advice. I think
how underestimated that is.Leaders plus would not exist when
I set it up. I just asked forpeople for advice and I walked around
with literally babe in armsbecause I was still in a maternity
leave, chatting to people,asking really senior HR directors
for advice of how to convinceemployers, asking lots of senior
(35:50):
leaders like you to be mentorson the program, asking for advice
on the design to make sureit's as high impact as possible.
And that has been reallypowerful. Vanessa Bonds is an interesting
researcher. We've interviewedher for that podcast as well. And
she has said that people aretwice as likely to say yes than you
think. So just going andasking is such a powerful tool. Looking
(36:15):
back over your story of havingthree children and a big career,
what would you say are thethings that you wish you knew and
you know.
Now I think really would bethat exact same topic that we just
covered. Asking for advice andlooking for a mentor. I did not have
(36:35):
formal or. Well, maybe I didobviously get support and more senior
colleagues through my career,but I felt very often lonely in my
career, but also in my careeras a parent. How do I navigate, you
know, that flexibility, whichobviously before pandemic times,
we had much less of workingfrom home and flexibility. So life
was slightly different, Iwould say a little bit more difficult
(36:57):
for working parents. And Ithink just by having the ability
to talk through some thingswith someone openly in a positive
and motivating environment.Obviously you can always find a friend
and vent together, but thatdoesn't get you much further. Well,
sometimes it's helpful, butbeing in an environment where it's
(37:21):
a normal thing to do and it'snot some sort of a miracle or superpower
and you don't have to doeverything perfectly and you don't
have to join every singlemeeting and it's okay to drop off
a call when you are notcontributing and you are not benefiting
from having this as a regularexperience. I think that would be
(37:41):
massively helpful.
I couldn't agree more. Verywell said. We're coming towards the
end of our conversation. Isthere anything that you wanted to
share with our listeners thatyou haven't had a chance to share
yet?
What I would share, I thinkit's have more faith in yourself.
Understand as a workingparent, understand that success has
(38:01):
lots of different dimensionsand , what works for you may not
work for others and viceversa. So find what success and fulfillment
is for you and find the rightbalance for you. I often hear comments
about whether it's work, lifebalance or whatever terms are used
for that. It's such anindividual topic for everybody. I'm
(38:24):
perfectly okay catching up onsome of my work things while in my
children's bedroom at nightbecause they're used to this and
this is the method that wehave that they want me to be close
by and I can finish off somethings so then I don't have to work
on it middle of the night. ButI also benefit from flexibility.
You know, attending schoolplays and medical appointments and
(38:44):
so on. And that works for meand that works for my family. So
find what works for you.Surround yourself with the people
who understand it and aresupportive. I'm extremely grateful
for my colleagues andcolleagues at work who offer full
flexibility to everybody atwork and not just working parents.
(39:06):
So find or create, because itdoesn't always exist. Sometimes we
have to drive that change,create that environment and be kind
to yourself, be kind toothers, but also to yourself. I think
very often we Apologize toomuch. We think in a negative ways,
but this is life, this is veryimportant. And being more understanding
(39:26):
to yourself as a workingparent, that not everything always
goes on time. We can't alwaysbe there on time, I would say is
a very important thing.
Very well said. That'sexcellent advice. And on your point
of finding a mentor, findingthat group of support so you don't
have to do all this workyourself, of finding the right flexibility
and thinking about what youwant to do. So if you head to the
(39:48):
Leaders website and then gofellowship, you can see if you fulfill
the criteria for whether ornot you could be part of one of our
programs and obviously accessto mentoring. So you might want to
do that. It's been absolutelywonderful to chat to you, Silvia.
If people want to find outmore about you or your work, where
(40:08):
should they go?
I'm available and active onLinkedIn. Do reach out if you have
any comments, if you havequestions or if you want support.
I'm one of those people whowill say yes, I'll give you half
an hour of my time. I'll giveyou an hour of my time. Let's chat.
If I can help, it will be mypleasure. And Verena, thank you for
not just this hour, but forall the work that you are doing.
(40:29):
It's been phenomenal. I lovethe social enterprise that you're
leading and how significantcontribution this is to changing
that narrative. So for thefellows that you're helping through
the program, but bringing upthat different level of narrative
in the society, I think it'sextremely important and thank you
so much for your bravery andenthusiasm and driving this.
(40:54):
That means a lot.
Thank you so much.
Sylvia, it's very kind of youto say thank you.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just callto Ferina Hefti and I'll be delighted
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just.
(41:14):
Have you say hi.
Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment, podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chargingpodcasts are led by men. I really
(41:37):
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast, our fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same, then please head over to
leadersclass.org Fellowship inorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combineambitious career with young children,
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because.
Because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
the same stale, often male,middle class people leading our organizations.
We must change this together.And I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast, I am the CEO and founder
of the social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, shared parental
leave, securing a promotion,dealing with workload challenges,
or managing as a dual careercouple. We also have an award winning
fellowship community which isglobal for working parents who have
big dreams for their careersbut don't want to sacrifice their
family. You'll join anabsolutely wonderful group of people,
(01:28):
a very tight knit, supportivegroup of parents who have your back.
Together. You'll explore whatyour career aspirations are and you'll
get advice from senior leaderswho are also working parents about
how to achieve thoseaspirations. You'll get new ideas
to combine your hopes for yourcareers with your hope for your family.
And you are supported bypeople who are experiencing what
(01:48):
you're experiencing yourself.I'm really delighted that a larger
majority of our fellows havemade tangible changes following the
program, be that becoming moresenior in their roles, working shorter
hours, having better flexibleworking arrangement. They always
impress me so much with thecourage that they instill in each
other to do what is right forthem without apologizing for having
(02:12):
a family or apologizing forwanting that top job. Details are
on leadersplus.org Fellowship.Today I'm chatting to Silvia Wolos
who is a Senior leader mentoron our Leaders Fellowship program
about her story of getting toa C-Suite role about networking as
(02:34):
an introvert and also how tostop apologizing. Enjoy the conversation.
First of all, thank you somuch Verena for having me on this
amazing podcast. It's reallymy pleasure. So my name is Silvia
Wolos and I'm Chief StrategyOfficer at a company called Ground
Truth Intelligence. I have Alovely and very fulfilling career
(02:57):
in a field called riskmanagement and compliance. So what
I have been doing for nearlytwo decades is helping large corporations,
financial institutions,identify and mitigate risk related
to financial crime and theirreputation. So my focus has been
(03:18):
on internationalinvestigations, corporate investigations
and due diligence, which is afascinating and very fulfilling,
it has been a very fulfillingfield for me. Anti corruption, anti
money laundering in the field.And with regards to my family setup,
I have three children agedbetween 7 and 12. We don't have any
(03:41):
pets, three children, myselfand my partner, we live just outside
Brussels for the past four years.
Wonderful. I'm now having apicture in my head of you in a. Yes.
In an office and all verygrown up, but also there being like
a detective hunting downcriminals. It might not be that picture
(04:01):
is right, but it sounds like areally interesting field and one
that I didn't even know existed.
It's fascinating and I have tosay that it's been a source of great
fulfillment and engagement forme. I very often hear that I'm quite
passionate about the topicbecause what goes beyond financial
crime is all what's calledpredicate offense. So all crime that
(04:23):
has victims, real people'svictims, that leads to generating
financial benefits forcriminal, Very often it's organized
crime that they have toessentially launder to enjoy the
benefits of it. So crimes suchas modern slavery, which is a huge
problem or fraud that isimpacting particularly in the uk,
(04:44):
so many of vulnerable peoplein our society, all horrendous crimes
that are happening at a hugescale globally, lead to or are driven
by the desire to financiallybenefit from that crime. Right. Whether
it's arms trafficking, drugstrafficking, anything. So making
it difficult or preventing theabilities for organized criminal
(05:08):
groups to commit the crimes orassist law enforcement in their work
through the work that we do,that our clients do, is an extremely
motivating sector for me towork in. And it is to a large extent
related to my, I think,upbringing and where I come from.
I grew up in Poland in the1980s. I'm Polish by origin and I
(05:30):
had this episode in my lifewhich was in my late 20s. So already
through a systemtransformation in Poland, Whe I
was a child, it was commonpractice for everybody to pay bribes.
Corruption was widespread,huge corruption, but also small corruption,
everyday corruption. It wasjust the way things were. And in
(05:51):
my late 20s, after the systemtransformation, where Poland was
already part of European Unionand you would expect that the petty
corruption, that everydaycorruption, you know, get your spot
at the university, get yourhealthcare and so on would have been
dealt with, but it hasn't. AndI experienced it when I fell quite
ill. I had tuberculosis and Iended up in the hospital. And with
(06:16):
all the stress and emotionsrelated to identifying such a serious
situation, health situation, Ialso had to observe the additional
stress and panic, I guess frommy parents for whom the first thought
was to whom do we need tobring an envelope so you can get
the right treatment? Which ofthe doctors or nurses? And I was
(06:41):
shocked that my parentsgeneration still thinks this way,
even though most doctorsalready at this time would not accept
the bribe obviously, but itjust shows how the sort of cancer
of the society, which iscorruption and financial crime in
more general terms, howpervasive it is. And it takes decades
(07:03):
and generations to change thesituation. My parents did not end
up paying any bribe. I bluntlyrefused and I made it a condition
that I only stay in thishospital for the treatment. If you
do not bring anything toanybody and it's absolutely forbidden
and on top of that illegal, soyou should stop doing that. But yes,
(07:23):
it really fueled my passionfor that topic back in the day and
keeps me going all the time.
I love how your passion comesthrough for this field. And I'm interested
in how you combine such apassionate C-suite role with not
just one or two but threechildren. What do you know now about
combining a big career withyoung children that you didn't know
(07:46):
10 years ago?
It's a difficult questionbecause obviously we evolve as a
person as we grow older, as wehave different life experiences.
So I don't know if there'salways a strict line between what
I know now that I didn't know15 years ago versus what I know now
as a mom, what I didn't knowor what I thought differently before
(08:07):
I had children. I think that'san important factor here that a lot
of our experiences conform us.And being a parent is huge and life
changing experience. But it'sone of the experiences as we go.
For me, it was difficult tobelieve that it's possible to have
a successful professionallife, maybe demanding higher leadership
(08:32):
role at work and be a fullypresent, satisfied, successful parent
at the same time, particularlyto multiple children. And I think
the reason, I'm sure you hearit a lot, that people didn't believe
it's possible before theyactually went and did it. I think
there are multiple reasons forthat. One is the lack of role models
(08:52):
around me. In my childhood mymom did not work professionally.
She looked after fourchildren. Although she did have a
lot of impact on the localcommunity. She volunteered. It was
not called volunteering butshe devoted a lot of her time and
work to community work, whichI think was also influential for
(09:13):
me as well in a positive way.But at work, either there weren't
that many women in higherroles in the organizations I was
part of or they would not talkopenly. There was the, the narrative
around working parents andworking moms especially was very
different. And I think thathas changed in our society significantly.
(09:34):
And obviously it's importantfor fantastic work that you do with
your with Leaders plus butother organizations as well and day
to day conversations to bringit up and change that narrative.
And I think it's so funny howit's so ingrained in us. I want to
go into this, but before I doso thank you so much for helping
to be one of those role modelsby actually volunteering your time
(09:57):
as a senior leader mentor forLeaders plus. I think it's really
important to support others inthat journey because it can be such
a lonely place because notjust do you have to do the work of
being a good career person,good leader, you also have to do
or you want to do the work ofa good enough parent. And then on
top of it's all that work ofgoing beyond society expectations,
(10:18):
putting that puzzle of childsupport care together. And I think
that's where we need moresupport. But it was really interesting
about the point aboutassumptions. So when we came on this
call we started with meapologizing for being late and the
reason was that I just had acall from my son's hospital consultant
(10:39):
which anybody working in theUK and understanding the healthcare
system in nhs, it's reallyimportant that you do not miss a
call. And you said to me,Verena, why are you apologizing?
Surely we should not apologizefor these things. And I know that
in reality, but it's just sointeresting how even I, who have
(10:59):
the luxury of being surroundedby people like you, it's so deeply
ingrained that we need toapologize for taking child related
things during work andespecially if it makes someone late
or so. What do you think needsto change to help people feel at
ease and apologize less fortheir children's stuff?
(11:22):
Very specifically with theword apologize, there's one seemingly
easy tactic but very difficultto implement on ongoing basis. Don't
apologize, thank to the personfor being patient or for waiting
for you. It's the same way.But the result is, I think much more
(11:42):
positive. You're not puttingyourself in a position, you did something
wrong, so you have toapologize. You're actually highlighting
the person has been patient,they waited for you and they understand.
So I think that switch fromapologize to say thank you, I think
it's a good tactic, although Icompletely understand. We are so
(12:02):
ingrained, not through the.Only through the society expectations,
you know, you're late so youshould apologize, but. But also the
language. Right. The languagedefines us to such a huge extent
and consciously managing thisor consciously changing the vocabulary
that we're using, particularlyif we've been using the same phrases
for, you know, 40 years andwe're so used to them, it's a difficult
(12:24):
topic.
Yeah, that's very true. And Ithink in my case there's an extra
challenge because of courseI'm Swiss and so being late, I'm
fully fulfilling thestereotype and I think most Swiss
people are as well. That wouldbe the worst.
I share similar experiences ofbeing the only non-native English
(12:44):
speaker in the meeting room,you know, one of very few or the
only girl in the room. So allthose things actually add up as some
stress factors, I guess. Andit takes a bit of experience and
probably emotionally goingthrough those and turning them into
the positives and into theadvantages of being that only person
(13:06):
of that origin or that genderor the only parent in the meeting
room and what that gives usand how we positively contribute
to the dynamics and the team achievements.
Right, interesting. So how areyou dealing now when you are the
only woman in that meetingroom or even the only person with
caring responsibilities, howare you dealing that now? And has
(13:28):
that changed over the years?
I think it has changed overthe years. It used to be a source
of great stress for me. It'sno longer so it can be sometimes
frustrating. But I'm morevocal about different perception
of certain items or certainproblems that could be related to
(13:52):
how women and men perceivecertain things differently. And there's
value in both points of view.So bringing it up and even highlighting
that maybe the reason I'mmaking this suggestion we should
consider this option isbecause of my gender and because
my different perspective onthe things. So I think vocalizing
(14:13):
it and not shying it away andfor myself, turning into advantage
rather than disadvantage andthinking about this as in a, In a
positive way has probablyimproved my perception of the situation.
But it can be frustrating alittle bit sometimes because there's
still so much work that needsto be done in the business environment
to make sure that women arereceiving the right equal treatment.
(14:40):
The gender pay gap persists inmultiple sectors. Women leadership
styles are perceived slightlydifferently than men's leadership
style. And while a lotpositive change has happened over
the last decade or so inmid-level management roles, the very
senior roles, I think there'sstill a lot to go to make sure that
(15:02):
there's more equal balance.
Yeah, I completely agree. Andfor the UK listeners in the uk, this
year is the first time whenthe gender pay gap has started to
widen again, which is due toresearch that just came out this
week. And I think we do needto change that. And root cause is
that not enough women get tothose senior levels that are well
(15:24):
paid and then on average theyare paid less as a result of that.
What do you think needs tohappen? That more people with caring
responsibilities can be inthose senior roles, Both women, but
also those dads who decide,well, actually I do want to work
part time and being a seniorrole. Just spoke to someone who identifies
themselves as a career dad.They both want a big career and be
(15:46):
a present dad. And at themoment, society doesn't always allow
us to be both.
(17:50):
100% There's the economicalworld and the economical realities
are that we are in the twoincome household models. It's very
difficult to operate on onesalary model these days. But also
women want to have careers.Many women want to be out there,
want to develop and besuccessful at work. But the societal
(18:12):
structures and thinking aboutcare is lagging behind. You know,
care is economically valuablebut is globally undervalued and unfortunately
a lot of careresponsibilities, well, more care
responsibilities fall on womenthan men. So I think the economic
(18:34):
and societal approach to care,the cost of childcare, the cost of
care for elderly, disabled,you know, any dependence in family
environment needs to berethought and improved. But also
the narratives around this andthe flexibility of work and ability
to combine successful careerand care, I think the narrative is
(18:58):
going in the right direction,but it's still not there enough.
And my personal view is thatvery often, obviously complicated
reasons, but very often weourselves need to work first on our
own thinking. How do Iperceive a career? How do I perceive
I'm successful in my career?Is it X title or is it X level of
(19:21):
salary? Is it fulfillment? Isit satisfaction? Is it acting with
integrity? You know, how oftendo you have to be there? Do you have
to be there full time to besuccessful? Or can you feel and show
up as successful in your workwhen you're working three days a
week or four days a week?Right. So I think a lot of people,
and probably that was also myperception before I had children,
(19:44):
why it's impossible to have asuccessful, demanding career because
that sort of single way ofthinking career is working 60 hour
weeks and just working andbeing extremely senior, extremely
wealthy, and that's it. Andwhile you accept that being successful
in your professional life is acombination of lots of different
(20:06):
things and it's not just theworking hours and the title, I think
that would become easier todrive. Also that flexibility and
combining the current career.
Interesting. And yet you dohave a C in your job title. Your
role is a C suite role. Andbecause of that you're an outlier.
(20:29):
Just statistically, the FTSEWomen Leaders Review have shown research
recently that while there'sbeen some improvement on boards at
that C suite level, there'sstill a massive, massive issue. And
I know every organization isdifferent. But looking back at your
story, what do you think werethe turning points that got you to
where you are now? How did it happen?
(20:51):
That's a difficult question.How did it happen? Because it seems
like a natural progression forme from my perspective and maybe
I can't provide more objectivesort of milestones maybe about the
C-suite role and the title. Asyou say, Verena, every organization
is different. Obviously in asmall organization there's different
(21:13):
titles than when you'relooking at an organization of 10,000
people or 25,000 people. Sokeep that perspective in mind. The
title has never been,throughout my working life, important
to me personally. But I doappreciate that it defines us to
many external stakeholders.And it has been a source of frustration
(21:36):
to me when people reactdifferently to you, even though you
have been the same person sixmonths earlier. But your title was
different, your job title wasdifferent. Unfortunately, there is
this social construct of yourrole title or of your title at work.
What got me here, I would saythe passion that I have for the topic
(21:57):
and for the field that I'mworking in, making the world even
a little bit safer and betterplace for us and for future generations.
Seeing that link between whatI do every day, even if it's a tiny,
tiny contribution, it is stilla contribution. Appreciating that
and really being committed tothis, but also finding as I, as I
(22:18):
went through my career, mychildren were born, you know, my
work style, my leadershipstyle, my thinking about myself in
my profession have beenevolving significantly. So remaining
agile, you know, flexible,adjusting easily, and having, I guess
that desire and flexibility todo new things, try new things, do
(22:41):
different things, I think thathas been quite helpful to keep myself
also so engaged because I havehad phenomenal experiences through
my career. My career has beenQuite interesting from the perspective
that I started in research andoperations, but then I had the pleasure
of working with customers,working with regulators, working
with marketing teams, workingwith sales teams, working with finance
(23:04):
teams. So very, very diverseexperiences which just keeps it so
interesting and wants me tokeep on going.
You're now motivating me to gointo risk and anti corruption. It
sounds amazing. Have you hadany thoughts about this leadership
style changing that youmentioned what exactly has changed
(23:26):
in your leadership as a resultof having children?
So I think as a result ofhaving children, and I'm sure most
parents will say the same, youbecome more focused and you just
have to get things donebecause you know you have other priorities.
And you just can't extendreviewing this document until 10pm
(23:47):
because if you leave it forlater, you will have to do it after
9pm and that's not very goodneither for that legal document you're
reviewing or for your mentalhealth and for your physical health.
So getting things done faster,focusing on priorities and not dragging
things that may be making alsodecisions faster, this is the priority.
This is not the priority. Mytime is very precious because I want
(24:11):
to share this time between mywork and my family life. So I need
to make some decisions and notlinger on things as much maybe as
I, as I would in the past. Alittle bit more of compassion, I
guess it's very difficult tobe a leader and for me it was difficult
to be a leader and fully graspand understand what colleagues on
(24:34):
my team and other colleaguesmay be going through who have children,
who have caringresponsibilities. It definitely opened
my eyes. And also to theextent that I try to lead with compassion
and I try to embed thatkindness and remind myself consciously,
you don't know what thisperson is going through at home and
(24:55):
not everybody wants to ornobody has to share this at work.
But when somebody shows upwith low energy and so on, it can
be frustrating and it can benatural to react with, you know,
hey, this is work. Show upyour best 100% of the time. Well,
that doesn't happen toanybody. So having a little bit more
of that understanding andcompassion and kindness, I think
(25:15):
that's important as well. Andwith age and with children, obviously
that's growing me.
Yeah. It's funny how sometimesthe more senior you get, the more
you focus on what reallymatters. But those are also the skills
that you get from. Well, somepeople get from having children.
Not to say that those withchildren are better leaders than
(25:36):
others, but I think there areskills that you get that are applicable
in your field, networking isabsolutely critical. Now it's not
that easy to go to lots andlots of evening networking events
when you have three childrento think about their various commitments
and I'm sure, activities. Howdoes networking look like in your
(25:57):
day to day life? Do you hangout at networking event or what do
you do?
Yes, it's a good question. Ithink it's critical not just in my
field. I think these daysnetworking for the purpose of your
own development, professionaldevelopment, but also personal development.
We learn so much throughconversations and you never know
(26:19):
when a random conversationwith a stranger turns into a life
changing event. So to me it'sbecome a very important part of my
professional life. It was not,I was terrified when I was younger,
I was terrified and very shyin small gatherings and meetings
(26:42):
and I would never start aconversation at the conference. It
was a difficult transition,but it was a learning curve. And
I went through the transitionbecause I started appreciating the
value of that, but alsounderstanding that the folks who
are speakers at the conferenceor others who are at the conference,
(27:02):
many of them are in the sameplace as I am. Many of them also
don't feel comfortable becauseit is not a natural thing for human
beings, for most human beingsto start a conversation with a stranger,
to open up and then learn alittle bit about techniques, how
to do it with ease, you know,how you can open the conversation,
(27:24):
the importance about findingcommon ground and leading from that
point. And also I think thatit's very difficult how to stop the
conversation when you see thevalue is not there, particularly
in the professional environment.
Interesting. So how do youstop the conversation without being
absolutely rude?
(27:45):
It's very tricky, but I thinkbeing honest and polite is the winning
recipe. So everybody who goesto a conference, if there's 100 people
or 300 people, you know thatyou have only little amount of time
and everybody's time is veryprecious. So for example, from business
development perspective, ifyou're discussing with someone, you're
(28:06):
making connection, stayconnected with this person via LinkedIn,
let's say. But maybe it's notthe right place and time to have
a conversation with a givenperson during that very short amount
of time that you have on theday that you are trying to network
for business development andthat person would not follow. Maybe
in the category of, of peopleyou are here to talk to, but remain
(28:27):
connected. And I thinkLinkedIn, as I, as I mentioned the
online networking, I thinkthat's another huge huge platform
that so many people are notbenefiting from. Because they're
just a little bit too shy, youknow, and you don't have to become
a LinkedIn influencerovernight if it's not natural to
you. You can simply start byengaging through comments, through
(28:48):
likes, share some valuablereading material. It happens to me
so often that someone sharessomething that opens my eyes or gives
me a new perspective on adifferent topic or just I learned
something new and I lovelearning new and exciting things,
whether it's, you know, from,from my, my work related or personal
development psychology and soon. And you just bring value to others
(29:12):
and think about it, if there'sone person who gets something positive
from this, then it's worthdoing that on LinkedIn. So there's
multiple techniques, but Ithink a lot of that is understand
the value, understand thateverybody around you is also shy.
Maybe not everybody is agenius who's at the conference. So
(29:32):
you're at the same level. It'sjust the regular conversation and
treat it like that and breakthe ice, maybe get a couple of bits
and pieces of advice, how tobreak the ice, how to start the conversation
and just go with it,
On that getting. It feels tome like there are pieces of advice
that are in the back of yourhead. What's your most trusted way
of starting a conversation? Ifyou're arriving in the morning, perhaps
(29:54):
the children. After screaming,your children might be extremely
well behaved and that mightnever happen in your house, but in
mine that could happen andyou're arriving a little bit dazed
and you know, networking is agood thing and you should be doing
it, but you don't really knowhow to start. How do you open a conversation
with someone?
So, Verena, I have for thepast few years, since I moved to
(30:15):
Belgium, I have extremelysuccessful tactic, Belgian chocolate.
I know we can get probablyinto a Swiss Belgian chocolate debate
here.
Absolutely. I'm happy on that.And may I add, I'm sorry to say the
Swiss will win, but yeah,let's go and move on.
It's funny, but it's a tiny,small thing, but it helps enormously
(30:37):
to break the ice. Andobviously you're not going to show
up online with a box ofchocolates or to every meeting with
a box of chocolate. But try tothink about it as a small, not necessarily
stressful, everyday thing.Everybody loves chocolate, everybody
loves talking about it. Sofind those things that are easy to
bring up and start theconversation and then ask questions,
(30:57):
ask questions and listen.Because only if you ask a few questions
you can find that - What's incommon, what do we Share, whether
it's children or holidaypreference or professional experiences.
Have you been to thisconference or have you read this
article? There's somethingelse that was published. So finding
that common ground is anenormous help in starting a new relationship
(31:22):
or new connection.
I completely agree, and Ithink what comes through your answer
is also the natural curiosity.I am more of an introvert and I generally
do not enjoy networkingevents. But when I go, I'm making
them count. And I do that byjust being very, very curious and
wanting to learn about otherhumans. And sometimes that gives
(31:43):
really interesting connectionsand you learn new things and sometimes
you just had a short chat andthat's okay as well. Not every conversation
has to be absolutely mind blowing.
Exactly.
And are you naturally anextrovert? You're finding those things
easy?
No, I did have to grow intothis and consciously learn. I was
very lucky to receive somespeaking training, presentation training
(32:07):
through my career. I say I waslucky, but I've also asked for a
lot of the support. And Ithink this is also critical. Whether
it's networking or any skillthat you want to develop, ask for
help. Nobody is born afantastic speaker. People just learn
how to do that. Yes, somepeople have maybe easier, you know,
some preference, or maybe somethings come easier to them. But speaking,
(32:30):
networking, those are skillsthat you can simply learn and master
through experience these days.I mean, there's so much knowledge
available at the click of abutton. Online courses, training
videos, TED talks, whateverworks for you. But find the ways
that work for you. Find amentor. And it doesn't have to be
a formal, you know, it'swonderful if you have a formal mentorship
(32:54):
program that you can join, butreach out to people that you've been
admiring, you've beenfollowing. Don't feel intimidated.
From my experience, mostpeople say, sure, I'll spend 30 minutes
with you and I'll help you outwith that. Sure, I'll give you an
hour of my time. I find itsurprising how little people ask
for help in professionalenvironment, especially women and
(33:16):
parents, I guess, for thosesmall things, because you're not
asking for huge amount oftime. And I just actually wanted
to comment on the thing youbrought up because I've had the privilege
and joy to be a mentor throughleaders plus last year. And it's
not just for me, for theperson who's benefiting from the
relationship, from theconversations, from tips and support
(33:39):
and so on. It's hugelybeneficial to mentors volunteering
activities that I've donethrough my life, whether they were
financial, crime related Some,you know, trainings and so on, or
completely unrelatedvolunteering has been documented
as one of the things thatmakes us happy, makes us happier
(33:59):
as humans. It gives us thepurpose, it gives us satisfaction.
You're so happy aboutyourself, you do something positive.
And also you learn so manythings, especially in professional
environment. When you'relooking at mentoring, maybe folks
with, you know, few decades ofexperience and younger generation,
younger generation has so muchknowledge and skills that we don't
(34:20):
have, particularly when itcomes to technology, whether it's
social media, whether it'sother aspects. So trying to bridge
that gap through relationshipwith someone who's different than
you, maybe with different lifeexperiences, can be super enriching
and satisfying also formentors. So I recommend it to everybody
who has not done it. Just gojump at it and it's. It's fun.
(34:41):
Absolutely. And if you do wantto do it on our website, you can
fill in a form if you are asenior leader who wants to support
other working parents and willarrange a quick chat with you. It's.
I think it is reallyimportant. But it's interesting how
what you've done thereactually with the mentoring is you
are diversifying your networkas well. Aside from the happiness
(35:02):
that it creates, there's alsosomething about having opportunities
that give you access todifferent fields, people who have
different life lifeexperience, and that's grounded in
research that that makes apositive contribution to your own
career development. That's notwhy you might do it, but the perspective
you get is absolutelycritical. I think that it's really
(35:25):
surprising how much you knowthat point around advice. I think
how underestimated that is.Leaders plus would not exist when
I set it up. I just asked forpeople for advice and I walked around
with literally babe in armsbecause I was still in a maternity
leave, chatting to people,asking really senior HR directors
for advice of how to convinceemployers, asking lots of senior
(35:50):
leaders like you to be mentorson the program, asking for advice
on the design to make sureit's as high impact as possible.
And that has been reallypowerful. Vanessa Bonds is an interesting
researcher. We've interviewedher for that podcast as well. And
she has said that people aretwice as likely to say yes than you
think. So just going andasking is such a powerful tool. Looking
(36:15):
back over your story of havingthree children and a big career,
what would you say are thethings that you wish you knew and
you know.
Now I think really would bethat exact same topic that we just
covered. Asking for advice andlooking for a mentor. I did not have
(36:35):
formal or. Well, maybe I didobviously get support and more senior
colleagues through my career,but I felt very often lonely in my
career, but also in my careeras a parent. How do I navigate, you
know, that flexibility, whichobviously before pandemic times,
we had much less of workingfrom home and flexibility. So life
was slightly different, Iwould say a little bit more difficult
(36:57):
for working parents. And Ithink just by having the ability
to talk through some thingswith someone openly in a positive
and motivating environment.Obviously you can always find a friend
and vent together, but thatdoesn't get you much further. Well,
sometimes it's helpful, butbeing in an environment where it's
(37:21):
a normal thing to do and it'snot some sort of a miracle or superpower
and you don't have to doeverything perfectly and you don't
have to join every singlemeeting and it's okay to drop off
a call when you are notcontributing and you are not benefiting
from having this as a regularexperience. I think that would be
(37:41):
massively helpful.
I couldn't agree more. Verywell said. We're coming towards the
end of our conversation. Isthere anything that you wanted to
share with our listeners thatyou haven't had a chance to share
yet?
What I would share, I thinkit's have more faith in yourself.
Understand as a workingparent, understand that success has
(38:01):
lots of different dimensionsand , what works for you may not
work for others and viceversa. So find what success and fulfillment
is for you and find the rightbalance for you. I often hear comments
about whether it's work, lifebalance or whatever terms are used
for that. It's such anindividual topic for everybody. I'm
(38:24):
perfectly okay catching up onsome of my work things while in my
children's bedroom at nightbecause they're used to this and
this is the method that wehave that they want me to be close
by and I can finish off somethings so then I don't have to work
on it middle of the night. ButI also benefit from flexibility.
You know, attending schoolplays and medical appointments and
(38:44):
so on. And that works for meand that works for my family. So
find what works for you.Surround yourself with the people
who understand it and aresupportive. I'm extremely grateful
for my colleagues andcolleagues at work who offer full
flexibility to everybody atwork and not just working parents.
(39:06):
So find or create, because itdoesn't always exist. Sometimes we
have to drive that change,create that environment and be kind
to yourself, be kind toothers, but also to yourself. I think
very often we Apologize toomuch. We think in a negative ways,
but this is life, this is veryimportant. And being more understanding
(39:26):
to yourself as a workingparent, that not everything always
goes on time. We can't alwaysbe there on time, I would say is
a very important thing.
Very well said. That'sexcellent advice. And on your point
of finding a mentor, findingthat group of support so you don't
have to do all this workyourself, of finding the right flexibility
and thinking about what youwant to do. So if you head to the
(39:48):
Leaders website and then gofellowship, you can see if you fulfill
the criteria for whether ornot you could be part of one of our
programs and obviously accessto mentoring. So you might want to
do that. It's been absolutelywonderful to chat to you, Silvia.
If people want to find outmore about you or your work, where
(40:08):
should they go?
I'm available and active onLinkedIn. Do reach out if you have
any comments, if you havequestions or if you want support.
I'm one of those people whowill say yes, I'll give you half
an hour of my time. I'll giveyou an hour of my time. Let's chat.
If I can help, it will be mypleasure. And Verena, thank you for
not just this hour, but forall the work that you are doing.
(40:29):
It's been phenomenal. I lovethe social enterprise that you're
leading and how significantcontribution this is to changing
that narrative. So for thefellows that you're helping through
the program, but bringing upthat different level of narrative
in the society, I think it'sextremely important and thank you
so much for your bravery andenthusiasm and driving this.
(40:54):
That means a lot.
Thank you so much.
Sylvia, it's very kind of youto say thank you.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just callto Ferina Hefti and I'll be delighted
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just.
(41:14):
Have you say hi.
Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment, podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chargingpodcasts are led by men. I really
(41:37):
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast, our fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same, then please head over to
leadersclass.org Fellowship inorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combineambitious career with young children,
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
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