In this special 200th episode of the Big Careers, Small Children podcast, our Programme and Impact Manager, Helen Fraser, takes the interviewer’s seat to chat with Leaders Plus Founder and CEO, Verena Hefti MBE. Verena reflects on the journey of starting Leaders Plus, the lessons learned from interviewing 199 inspiring guests, and the challenges and triumphs of combining an ambitious career with family life.
In this candid conversation, Verena shares how her own experiences of returning to work after maternity leave led her to create an award-winning social enterprise that supports working parents to progress their careers without sacrificing family life. She discusses the importance of role models, the challenges of setting boundaries, and how Leaders Plus is driving real change in the workplace.
In this episode, you will learn:
- How Leaders Plus was founded and the impact it has had on working parents.
- The challenges working parents face in progressing their careers and how to overcome them.
- The power of setting boundaries and finding a balance that works for you.
- Practical tips for combining career progression with family commitments.
- How Leaders Plus is shaping employer policies and driving cultural change for parents in leadership.
Verena also reflects on receiving an MBE, what it means for the organisation, and the importance of focusing on purpose-driven leadership.
We hope you enjoy this milestone episode!
Show Notes:
Our multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowships support parents committed to career growth while enjoying family life. Expertly designed to keep parents on the leadership path, our programme tackles gender pay gap issues and empowers parents to thrive. Learn more here: Leaders Plus Fellowship.
- Learn more about the Leaders Plus: Big Careers, Small Children podcast and explore additional resources at leadersplus.org.
- Follow Leaders Plus on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Bluesky.
- Connect with our CEO, Verena Hefti MBE on LinkedIn.
- Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
More BCSC episodes we think you'll love:
- Episode 199: (C-Suite Series) Elizabeth Willetts - How to Break the Glass Ceiling While Juggling Career Ambitions and Parenthood
- Paul J. Sullivan – How to Become a Lead Dad & Parent Out Loudly
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Ferena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
the same stale, often male,middle class people leading our organizations.
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast. I am the CEO and founder
of the social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family. And you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program, be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with
the courage that they instillin each other to do what is right
for them without apologizingfor having a family or apologizing
(02:14):
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship.
Without me noticing. The 200thepisode has crept up on me and I'm
delighted to say that my teamhave convinced me to do something
a bit differently this timeround. And Prachi, who does all the
(02:39):
very important background workon the podcast and Helen have said
that I should be interviewed,which I reluctantly agreed to. I
hope it's a usefulconversation. Helen asks me all about
my journey around setting upleaders plus what I've learned along
the way and also What I'veLearned from interviewing 199 podcast
(03:00):
guests. Enjoy the conversation.
Hello and welcome to thisspecial edition of the Big Careers
Small Children podcast. Myname is Helen Fraser and I am programme
and Impact Manager at LeadersPlus. I've been working at Leaders
plus for almost three yearsnow and it's been a real privilege
(03:21):
to work alongside Verena as wework to support working parents to
progress their careers. So, tomark the 200th episode and to start
off Season 14, which is the CSuite series, I will be asking the
questions today! And Verena,though I think many listeners will
(03:42):
know who you are, I'm stillgoing to ask you who is in your family
and what do you do?
Well, so I have threechildren, a three year old, a six
year old and an eight year oldand a very lovely partner. And I
run the Social EnterpriseLeaders Plus, which is all about
supporting parents to progresstheir careers. And I'm doing quite
(04:03):
a bit of volunteering on theside as well. And I'm a friend and
sister and daughter.
Fantastic. And as this is the200th episode, I wanted to start
by asking you, what would yousay to the Verena that was just about
to embark on her first podcastinterview 200 episodes ago, from
(04:25):
the perspective of now beingsort of 200 and counting and a five
star podcast, what would you say?
Well, be careful what you getstarted. I never thought so originally,
I'll tell you the story how it started So I was one of those parents
who was quite silly inthinking, oh yeah, of course I can
do work with a very newbornbaby, absolutely no problem, and
(04:46):
slightly sleep deprived, veryhormonal. I went to a wonderful meeting
with Ann Marie Archer and JoBetterton at the NHS London Leadership
Academy. And in that meeting Irandomly came up with the idea of
doing a podcast series ofthree episodes for leaders in the
NHS of how they combine bigcareer with small children, and asked,
(05:07):
oh, could you maybe give me£300 to buy the equipment to do the
recording? And yeah, so notthought it through, hadn't thought
of this before the meeting.You know, my breasts were leaking
and very sleep deprived. Andso. And they said, to my surprise,
yes, let's do it. And so I waslike, okay, I have to actually do
it now. And yeah, that's howit all started.
(05:28):
Great. And it just shows thatsometimes just taking that brave
leap can lead to really greatthings. And I know that from one
part of my role isinterviewing lots of our fellows
and many of them mentioned thepodcast. So I know that it does have
a really great impact forpeople listening, especially helping
them not to feel alone andtaking lots of practical advice as
(05:48):
well. And so, on that theme ofstarting things, why and how did
you start Leaders plus?
Yeah, so I never saw myself orI didn't have a big plan to start
Leaders Plus, but I was aregional director in the charity
Teach first, and I was, youknow, I had. It was at the time and
(06:09):
I think still is now quite asupportive organization and a plan
to go back to that, obviouslya very safe salary and all that.
But I had a bit of a cultureshock when I had my first. I'm sure
I told you this before manytimes, Helen, but when I had my first
baby, I really did have aculture shock because I thought nothing
would change. And on thewhole, I don't think I massively
(06:31):
changed, but how peopleresponded to me really changed, or
at least I felt it that way.And people really started talking
to me quite differently aboutmy future career. They seemed to
assume that I was now going onwhat the Americans call the mummy
track, and I wasn't interestedin big project exciting things. And
that was such a shock for me.And I really. It really shook me
(06:52):
up quite badly. I. I justthought, oh, my goodness, what have
I done? Have I ruinedeverything? And for someone who was
and is very passionate aboutcareer, and for someone who's this
part of a strong identity,that was really shocking. And I thought,
obviously I was whining to mypartner, as you do, and he said,
well, you need to get yourselfsome role models. You know, there
(07:13):
are people out there. And so Ithought, okay, fine, I'm very good
at organizing events. I dothat quite easily. So I thought,
why don't I try to find seniorleaders who are inspirational, who
show that actually you canstill be a leader of your children
and get them in front of me.Then I thought, all right, I don't
have budgets for this, so Ineed to find someone to give me a
free space. And I've wrote toa lot of the big companies saying,
(07:35):
I have this idea. I want toget 60 leaders and 40 babies into
a room and talk about careerprogression. Would you give me a
space? And they say, oh, noinsurance. I won't name names. But
you can think of pretty muchall the big companies who have famous
names and an office in centralLondon. I've written to them. They
all said no or ignored me. Andthen again, actually, Dean suggested
(07:56):
that I should speak to mylocal MP, which never crossed my
mind. And I thought, oh, whata silly idea. But I did it anyways.
And funnily enough, so shedidn't have children, her name is
Heidi Alexander, but she said,oh yeah, I'll support you, you can
have a room in the House ofCommons. So that was really lovely.
And then I did not know anyrole models, of course, of senior
leaders or young children. SoI just went on Twitter, tried to
(08:19):
stalk people, and to mysurprise, I asked quite a few, some
really inspirational peoplesaid yes. So Geraldine Strasti, I
think cbe, so really seniorperson, one of the most senior people
in psychiatry in the whole ofthe United Kingdom, had sai yes
and was very inspirational.Karen Blackett, who was the CEO and
then chairwoman of Mediacom,again said yes. And I had, I think
(08:44):
at the time also I didn't haveany mummy sounds like a terrible
life, but I didn't have anymommy friends because I thought instead
of going to an NCT class, mypartner and I decided that he would
go to a dads only class and Iwould attend the NHS class. But as
a result, I didn't have mummyfriends yet. And yeah, so I just
told some of my few reallylovely mummy friends, including Bea
Stevenson, who does have a lotof mummy friends, who then sent a
(09:06):
WhatsApp to all her friends orwhatever it was at the time. And
that's how we ended up. So weended up filling a room of 60 and
we did have lots of babiesthere. Sorry, I'm rambling on a little
bit. I hate it when podcastguys do that. But for me personally,
that's where the need started.And then when I realized after the
event, which was veryinspirational, I noticed that there
(09:27):
was need to do more becauseall those people were now inspired.
But actually they neededsupport, they needed mentorship,
they needed support on how todeal with those conversations of
how you set boundaries butstill be invited to the big ticket
conversations. How you makesure that you're picked for promotion,
that people are activelythinking of you, how you make sure
(09:48):
that when you apply to fulltime role, you negotiate that to
be four days a week, if that'swhat you want, and how you make sure
that you have the confidenceto do it your own way, even if all
your aunties and uncles andpeople at work say, well, actually
no, you should either go fulltime, otherwise you never progress,
or why are you such an evilperson to keep working? So because
(10:08):
of that, I then founded SocialEnterprise Leaders plus and I was
very lucky to get support fromthe Society for the Arts and Commerce
and also Cambridge SocialVentures. And yeah, that was the
start of it and then now sevenyears on, it's become also, thanks
to your help, Helen, a reallyimpact driven organization with quite
a serious demand for change.In that we take people who are parents
(10:32):
but who want to progress andwe really, it's almost like injecting
them with the network, thesupport, the access to opportunities
to insights that help them todo it their way. Also connect them
with other people who are like minded.
Yeah. And it's incredible. Ihope you're very proud when you look
back to that first event inthe House of Commons and I think
(10:53):
shows so much courage that weask all of our Leaders plus community
to have and you definitely area shining example of that. And as
you said, Leaders plus wasgrown and you actually received an
MBE for your work with Leadersplus. And how did that make you feel?
Was that something youexpected or was it one of those oh
(11:15):
moments?
It was really funny. Again, Ithink I've told you this story before.
I was checking my emails and Igot a message saying you need to
provide your details becauseyou will receive an MBE and you have
to complete your address andwhatnot. And I didn't think anything
to it because I thought thisis obvious spam. It was during the
pandemic. So it wasn't awritten letter, it was an email.
(11:36):
And I mentioned it in passingto Dean again, I should make him
a listen to this podcastepisode so he feels appreciated.
But yeah, he said, oh, youknow, why don't you call the Cabinet
Office up and see if it'sreal. Okay then I'll do that. And
it turned out yes, it was realand I still made them really make.
You know, I tried to my bestnot to give away personal.
(11:56):
You're probably too careful.
But yeah, absolutely. Andyeah, it was. I mean to be honest,
I felt like I didn't deserveit, but I still. Which is probably
not the inspirational messageyou wanted to hear from someone who
all advocates with speaking.But I think it just showed like that
was my initial reaction. Butthen I thought, well actually probably
(12:17):
a lot of people in mysituation would feel that. And if
you were part of an all boysnetwork and for years and decades
you've been told you'rebrilliant, then you probably wouldn't
feel that. So I thought okay,I'll just ignore that. And I was
thinking about accepting itjust a little bit on the back of
it obviously does say BritishEmpire and they're all sorts of colonial
(12:37):
associations with it. But thenI thought about the good I can do
with it and it really doesopen doors because people respond
to your emails a little bitmore. They think you're a different,
you know, you're a very worthyperson, which obviously there's absolutely
no difference to me before andafter MBE, but it does have an impact,
so that's why I took it and.
(12:59):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Andhave you always been driven by a
strong sense of purpose andmaking an impact?
Yeah, I think so. I've. Myparents are very. They're both GPs
and they've been very activein their local village. So I've been
always raised with like,making differences part of what you
(13:23):
should do. During theChristmas event period, we had to,
I think, give up sweets to getmoney for giving to charity and all
sorts of, like, trying tobrainwash us into doing good, which
has worked. And I ampassionate about all sorts of social
justice causes. So I used towork for Teach first, which is all
about education, socialjustice. I volunteered with Refugees
(13:45):
at Home, which is aboutintegrated refugees. We used to host
homeless young people withNight Stop in our house. So those
wanting to make a differencewas always part of what I do. And
I think you and I, we bothknow we could spend our time in much
easier ways and probably earna much higher salary, but to me it's
absolutely. I shouldn't saythis to my direct report, but yeah,
(14:10):
yeah.
So, yeah, I think, I mean, Iknow that for me, nothing fills me
up more, you know, work wisethan going into those Leaders plus
sessions and hearing ourfellows stories and the actions they've
taken and the impact theprogramme has had. It's always a
really fills you up and I justwondered whether there were sort
(14:30):
of any moments for you thatreally stick with you, of those kind
of impact stories?
Yeah, I think so. Every time Ijoin one of the sessions that we
run and we ask the fellowswhat actions they've taken, that
always really, your languagefills me up. That's exactly how I
feel. But I can think of oneperson who. So at the moment we really
(14:54):
track who has taken action. Sothis sounds Machiavellian, but we
are, because we know it's theimplementation of the things that
we teach that that's whatmakes a difference. We really track,
we encourage, we ensure thatpeople, we provide the support so
people can make the changethat they're. Why they're joining
the fellowship. At the time,we didn't at the very beginning,
(15:14):
and I was absolutely blownaway by one lady who worked for an
energy company and who justwent away and asked her boss for
a pay rise and a promotionduring Maternity leave. And she said,
I would have never done thatwithout Leaders Plus. And to me at
(15:34):
the time, I was. Now mychildren are much older, but at the
time I was still quite a youngmother. That was such a powerful.
It really made me so happy tosee how there was this tangible impact.
And to be honest, that alsohelped me to keep going and make
into a really high impact,highly respected program.
Yeah, absolutely. I think, Imean, you know, there's a whole spectrum,
(15:56):
isn't there, of impact that wesee. And it is always a real privilege
to hear about it. Andespecially when people say that line
of, I wouldn't have done thatwithout the Leaders plus fellowship,
I think is so painful.
What about you, Helena? I'venever asked you, actually.
I think, like you say, everytime we get to be at a session, you
know, which is a big part ofmy role, which I'm very, very happy
(16:18):
about, and going around theroom and I think actually something
seems quite small thathappened just before Christmas with
one of our NHS sessions. Andone of the fellows said that the
action she'd taken was toemail her line manager with all the
dates of her Christmasobligations and nativities that she
had for her children and tojust give notice that she wouldn't
(16:42):
be able to be in on thosedays. And she said, you know, without
the program, I wouldn't havedone that. I would have left it to
the last minute and I wouldhave felt really guilty and then
I would have. And I, for me, Ijust thought, oh, it's just. It's
so great that it's empowering,you know, someone to do that and
then have that, you know, weknow is not always a special experience,
going to nativity, dependingon your school. But I think on the
(17:04):
whole, that special moment andknowing that you can be there without
any of the kind of guilt andworry, and I think that as well,
was a really powerful moment,I felt.
Yeah. Especially in the NHScontext, that's not a done thing
at all. And you have, I thinka lot of our fellows, they have to
be pioneers in some shape orform. They might be the first one
having those negotiations,being the first one at certain levels
(17:26):
of seniority.
Yeah, definitely. And I thinkhearing people are doing it and knowing
that, I think just having thatsense of change, I think is just
such a positive thing to haveit have in our lives. And you kind
of touched on then what kindof maybe gets you through the tough
times. And I know that, youknow, like you say you're a mum of
three, you're running a socialEnterprise. There are difficult times.
(17:49):
I know. And I just wondered,you know, what keeps you going in
those moments.
Yeah. So I actually reallyenjoyed when we did. Do you remember,
I think it was just beforeChristmas when we had the senior
director CEO fireside chat andwe had a group of CEOs sharing. And
that was so powerful for mepersonally. And what one of them
(18:10):
shared was that when you run,you know, when the buck stops with
you in an organization, therewill always be time where you just
have to step in. And usuallyyou can manage your work life balance
really well in a senior role,which is true. But when things hit
the fan, that's when you needto step in. So for me, what actually
helps me. I'm sure you werehoping for an inspirational story
(18:30):
here, but sorry, what helps meis just to accept that yes, it Sadly,
if there's a problem with ourVAT reporting that we need to sort
out and we need to spend agesin spreadsheets to make sure everything
is correct. And that involvesmy time despite the best delegation.
Just because it does, that isjust okay. And that is part of it.
(18:51):
And I'm not expecting eternalhappiness and inspiration. And then
I think on the flip side ofit, I do really crave. And that's
why I keep saying to you Iwant to be at the fellow sessions.
I want. Because that is whatkeeps me going. Honestly, I need
to see people and I need tosee people and hearing about the
impact, otherwise I willdefinitely lose motivation. And then
(19:15):
I think the other thing thatkeeps me going is learning. I really
love learning and challengingmyself. So last, just before Christmas,
I set up this AI learninggroup which was so much fun with
a group of fellows andmentors. And I just as I came here,
I know it's very random, butit gave me so much energy, I had
so muhc fun.
I mean, I know you love AI. Ido now as a result of that group.
You know, it's great thataspect of always learning. And practically
(19:38):
speaking, when you know,things are on a fairly even keel,
how do you manage thoseboundaries? Because you know, I have
to say, working within ourteam, I think it's. You're a great
example and it's funny, but Iwill often think to myself, you know,
Verena's done that, then it'sokay for me to do that. And I think
you do do that really well.Whether or not you're really doing
(19:59):
it, you. You sort of set theexample really well. But what would
you say that you do?
I'm laughing because I'mHearing my children now running through.
And this might be very much anexample of where they're coming home
from school with that. And wemight not have a boundary here because
they have spotted. Just goingto make sure. So listeners, I'm going
to have to make sure the dooris closed. So nobody knows.
(20:20):
Boundary setting in action.
But I think there's somethingalso about sometimes breaking your
boundaries. So I find it verycathartic sometimes to work a few
hours in an evening just towork through something and get a
report Right. And so on. Idon't do it often, but I do sometimes
allow myself. I don't feellike I need to stick to it all the
(20:41):
time. But generally I do notwork after hours. I might be on my
phone and looked at,especially if my children misbehave.
I might actually use LinkedInas a bit of a cause are, you know,
like other people use Facebookand look at that. And I might think
of something work related. Butgenerally it is for me, it's been
a habit and I had to learn itthe hard way. I used to think that
(21:05):
I'm better at my job if I workvery long hours, and that was even
before I had children. Butthen I got some tough feedback saying,
actually, you're workingreally long hours. You're setting
a bad example. You're notadding more volume in those hours.
And I didn't listen to that.And I really dialed it back. Yeah,
yeah, I think that helped. Andjust having children helps. I mean,
(21:25):
that's the other thing interms of setting boundaries I used
to try to have. So we recruitsenior leader mentors, and you do
that now brilliantly. And sowe have interviews with them and
they're busy people. So I usedto have a call with them on a day
where I don't work. It alwayswent terribly wrong every single
time. My children would bevery well behaved all day. They would
choose that half an hour tohave a screaming fit. So, yeah, I
(21:46):
just learned it's not. Itdoesn't work. Yeah.
(25:55):
And I think that shows, youknow, what we say a lot on the fellowship
as well is finding what worksfor you. And I actually remember
my first kind of cohortonboarding and you said to me, helen,
I won't be impressed if by theend of this you're absolutely exhausted.
And you, you know, you justhave worked so hard to get all these
(26:15):
interviews done and everythingthat won't impress me. You need to
manage your diary and tell meif you're not able to do it. And
that was quite a learningthing for me because I think before,
like you say, you kind ofthink, oh, if I get all of this done,
I'm going to be praised. Butyou were like, no, not if it's at
the expense of you beingexhausted because actually you won't
(26:36):
do the best job you can withthat. And it really stuck with me.
And also on that note, I thinkdoing what's right for the individual
is such a theme of thefellowship that we're always, you
know, the diversity in theroom is always really interesting
as well because people arefinding their own way. And you know,
sometimes I do like to log onon a Sunday if I've been on leave
(26:58):
because actually I can thenenjoy the rest of my afternoon not
guessing what might have comein, but knowing and. But for some
people, they like to go rightto the end of their leave. And so
I think it is really a reallyimportant point about, you know,
finding your own boundariesand what is right for you. And what
would you say is the biggestchange you've seen? Sort of from
(27:22):
starting Leaders plus to now?We're all about driving change and
it's small steps for sure. Butis there something different you
feel.
In the wider environment, I'mnoticing that people talk about career
progression for parents and Ireally think we've made a significant
contribution to that becausewhen I started Leaders plus the maternity
(27:43):
coaches all talked aboutboundaries and work life balance,
which are important and goodtopics. But nobody was brave enough
to say, well, actually workingparents deserve to progress their
careers even if they do wantto be there for their children. And
I think that has definitelychanged. I've also seen a very welcome
(28:04):
focus on data and looking.Actually, is an intervention making
a difference or is it justmaking people feel good? And our
partners, I think are reallygood because they are interested
in what is the work that we'redoing together. Making a real change
in terms of number of peoplepromoted, number of people staying
(28:24):
with the organization, impacton well being. And I think that's
quite exciting for both of us,isn't it? To really make a difference
on actually real people'slives and not just hot air, blah,
blah.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.And what would you say you're proudest
of?
I think I'm proudest that if Iwas hit up by a bus or something
(28:48):
like that or something morejoyful that it would, I think, I
think it would continue. And Ithink that's a really, that's a really
hard thing to achieve. Veryoften an organization could become
very dependent. And I'm sure,it's still more dependent than I
would like it to be on me, butI think that's something I'm proud
of. And I'm also proud thatI've changed my own ways of working.
I've really challenged myself.I've always had coaching. I've been
(29:10):
part of the Help to Growprogram from Brunel University. I've
been supported by theUniversity Social Ventures program
and I'm really proud that Icontinue to learn and stretch myself.
I always think I can do moredefinitely. But I'm quite proud that
I'm definitely not the sameleader as I was a year ago. I think
(29:30):
anyways, you might, you cantell me off the record afterwards
if you disagree, but that's my thinking
Definitely, and I think, youknow, Leaders plus is testament to
that because we never stop,you know, we're always looking and
that's, you know, how can wemake a bigger impact? How can we
reach more people, how can we,you know, refine the program to make
sure that, you know, it'shaving a deeper impact? And that's
(29:52):
definitely testament.
I don't think I'm proud as anindividual but I think I'm proud
of us as a team of reallystretching ourselves and making sure
that we did the research work.The career progression caps really
shape employers views of whatthe data of what working parents
experience, why they sayworkload is a massive issue, how
actually most of them do wantto progress but only 30% say they
(30:12):
can do it with their employer.I think that's really exciting. It's
super exciting that we workedwith HSBC to support them, to understand
their internal working parentsexperience and supporting them through
that research to actually thatthat was really exciting and I think
I can't say too much detailbut the reason why that was exciting
is because that involvedhaving lots of really brave and ambitious
(30:32):
conversations and it had areal impact on the frontline. And
then I'm really excited aboutthe senior directors group that we've
just had. I mean personally Ijust get a lot from it because I'm
at that career stage. Theother CEOs and senior directors are
as well. I'm enjoying it butI'm also really proud that we are
making a difference to thatgroup, that level of seniority. And
(30:53):
we're recording this in twodays. We're going to have our first
face to face session with ourfuture leaders. So people who haven't
got a career progression yetwho perhaps feel they want to now
start taking off in theircareer, yeah, that would be Exciting.
Yeah, I'm really excited aboutthat and I think that's what's definitely
since in my time at LeadersPlus, I love that we are kind of
(31:16):
branching out to offersomething to everybody, you know,
no matter what sort of stagethey are at. So I think that is really
exciting that we're startingthat on Wednesday. And can I ask
you, what do your childrenthink of your work?
Well, they think it's boring,honestly. They've said. My 8 year
old has said that because theythink it involves sitting in front
(31:37):
of the computer.
Yes.
I don't think they understandand I'm probably bad at communicating
it to them. I don't think theyunderstand the need for our work,
but maybe. Exactly. But I'mreally proud that they understand
sexism. So even my 8 year oldwill pick things from a book and
say, mommy isn't this sexist.So something must have seeped through.
(31:59):
What they really appreciate isthat I sometimes bring back biscuits
from our face to face eventsbecause they're left over and we
don't want to waste the socialenterprise resources and they really
appreciate that. So they, theythink mummy's work involves sitting
in front of a computer andeating biscuits.
Yeah, perfect. I just share mydaughter, my children older than
(32:20):
yours and we were watching aTV program in which there was a mum
who was - It's Modern Family,it's quite old now, so it's a bit
dated but we're kind of rewatching it with them and there was
a part where the mum in one ofthe families was, you know, talking
about how she given up hercareer to be a mum. And my daughter
Hazel said to me, oh mum,that's why your organization exists.
(32:40):
And it was just such a lovelymoment. Like I was just like, oh,
they do listen to me, they dounderstand. And yeah, that was a
lovely moment.
Oh, that's very sweet.
Yes, really was. And we hear alot. Like you said, we have senior
leader mentors that is such aprivilege to hear their thoughts
(33:00):
on combining ambitious careersand senior careers with parenting
and our fellows as well. But Ijust wondered, what advice would
you share with your bestfriend about combining an ambitious
career with family life? Theywere just about to embark on it.
Yeah, I was actually in thatsituation recently and it was someone
(33:21):
in academia, which is aparticularly challenging field because
of the level of insecurity, ajob insecurity. And I think the most,
again you're probably hopingme that I will be very inspirational
and I will not be, but I thinkI just said to her, like, it is Hard.
It's not easy, but there areplenty of people that are able to
(33:42):
do it. And if you want to doit, you probably want to do it for
the right reasons, because youwant to make a difference, because
you have something to add. Andthat's an absolutely okay ambition
to have. And if you are doingit despite it being hard, you're
going to be part of thecommunity of making it easier for
future generations. I alsodirect her to the podcast, and I
think that that is somethingthat has really changed for me as
(34:02):
a result of the podcast,because I get to interview so many
amazing senior leaders and thewhole point so many of them make
that they still experienceguilt, and that's okay. They keep
going regardless. They stillhave the imposter syndrome, but they
keep going regardless. Andthey still are questioning sometimes
whether they're not doingright by their children. But then
(34:23):
when I interview the olderpodcast guests who are towards the
end of their careers, everysingle one, without exception, tell
me that actually it isentirely, you know, the children
are entirely delighted withtheir careers. They never once thought
that they would. Theysuffered. They're very proud. And
for me, that's such a big,important message that. And I think
that has changed for me as aresult of all these interviews that
(34:45):
our life is hopefully long andthings are going to change. And how
you see your situation todaymight be quite different from how
you see it. They are also allthe podcast guests, even the ones
with kids in their 20s and30s, they say, I still worry so much
about them, so maybe that willnever go away.
Yeah, I think it's just wehave these conversations all the
time. It just changes, doesn'tit? Like, it's, you know, they're
(35:08):
very different stages, howyou. When your children are growing
up. But, you know, my mum saysto me, you know, she still worries
about me, and I've got my ownchildren, and it's just. I think
it's just different. And, youknow, it affects your career maybe
differently, but it's, youknow, being a parent and having a
career, like you said, it ishard, but it is also, if it's right
(35:30):
for you, it is the right thingto do. And like you said, it is hopefully
making that easier for, youknow, our children. And that's what
I mean when I say maybe I hopethe children never do have to understand
what you do, because theywon't embrace a world in which they
have quite so many.
Yeah. And I think it's evenmore important now than ever that
(35:50):
we do become this countermovement because we're recording
this just after the weekendwhere Mark Zuckerberg announced that
they're going to scrap the DEIin Meta. The agenda pay gap, according
to the WEF, still would takemore than 130 years to close and
so on and so forth. So I thinkthrough living our lives differently
and saying, well, actually,no, we do want to have roles with
(36:13):
power and we do want to havechildren. I think even though it's
hard, it's really important todo that.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.And I don't mean this question to
sound sort of morbid, but whatdo you. Would you like to be remembered
for? What do you hope peopleremember about you?
Well, I'm really hoping thisis not. I wonder how long this is
going to live. Hopefullynobody's going to play this at my
(36:36):
funeral. Yeah. Now I feel veryraw, but thanks, Helen.
Yeah, sorry, that was a bit ofa downer.
Let's end on a downer. Goodidea. Hopefully that I was someone
kind who cared about thepeople in my life and that I acted
with integrity and even whenmaking tough decisions, did that
(36:56):
with the back of respect forother people and that I continued
stretching and learning andmaking a difference. Yeah. And it
would be lovely to have newideas that we've implemented that
are like, shaping and havebeen absorbed into the fabric like
that focus on careerprogression for working parents.
(37:17):
But hopefully some of our newwork as well, like the work that
we do together online might.
Yeah, absolutely. Finally,then, if you think back to Verena
in, I think 2017 was it whenLeaders plus began. You're about
to embark on this journey.What would you tell her?
Just not to worry too much andjust get on with it. I would say
(37:37):
not to overthink things andjust do it.
Yeah.
Great.
Well, thank you so much. Ithas been really lovely to talk to
you about Leaders plus andyour own journey. And I really hope
our listeners have enjoyed alittle insight into your experiences
of setting up Leaders plus andyour family life as well.
(38:00):
Thank you. And thank you formaking it comfortable. I was very
nervous and at first a bitresistant, but because our wonderful
new team member Prachi madethis as one of her first suggestions,
I thought, oh, no, I can't sayno to one of her first ideas. So
here we are. But thank you toyou, Helen, and to Prachi for making
us do this. I really enjoyedthe conversation with you.
Me too. Me too. Thank you.
(38:22):
I really appreciate you listening.
Thank you so much.
And I always love to hear fromour listeners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn. Just goto Ferena Hefti and I'll be delighted
to hear your feedback and.
Your suggestions or just haveyou say hi.
Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
(38:42):
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment, podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chargingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast, our fellowship
(39:04):
program, and if you want to dothe same, then please head over to
LeadersPlus.org/fellowship iorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combinean ambitious career with young children
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Ferena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
because those people don'tprogress to senior leadership and
the same stale, often male,middle class people leading our organizations.
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast. I am the CEO and founder
of the social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family. And you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program, be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with
the courage that they instillin each other to do what is right
for them without apologizingfor having a family or apologizing
(02:14):
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship.
Without me noticing. The 200thepisode has crept up on me and I'm
delighted to say that my teamhave convinced me to do something
a bit differently this timeround. And Prachi, who does all the
(02:39):
very important background workon the podcast and Helen have said
that I should be interviewed,which I reluctantly agreed to. I
hope it's a usefulconversation. Helen asks me all about
my journey around setting upleaders plus what I've learned along
the way and also What I'veLearned from interviewing 199 podcast
(03:00):
guests. Enjoy the conversation.
Hello and welcome to thisspecial edition of the Big Careers
Small Children podcast. Myname is Helen Fraser and I am programme
and Impact Manager at LeadersPlus. I've been working at Leaders
plus for almost three yearsnow and it's been a real privilege
(03:21):
to work alongside Verena as wework to support working parents to
progress their careers. So, tomark the 200th episode and to start
off Season 14, which is the CSuite series, I will be asking the
questions today! And Verena,though I think many listeners will
(03:42):
know who you are, I'm stillgoing to ask you who is in your family
and what do you do?
Well, so I have threechildren, a three year old, a six
year old and an eight year oldand a very lovely partner. And I
run the Social EnterpriseLeaders Plus, which is all about
supporting parents to progresstheir careers. And I'm doing quite
(04:03):
a bit of volunteering on theside as well. And I'm a friend and
sister and daughter.
Fantastic. And as this is the200th episode, I wanted to start
by asking you, what would yousay to the Verena that was just about
to embark on her first podcastinterview 200 episodes ago, from
(04:25):
the perspective of now beingsort of 200 and counting and a five
star podcast, what would you say?
Well, be careful what you getstarted. I never thought so originally,
I'll tell you the story how it started So I was one of those parents
who was quite silly inthinking, oh yeah, of course I can
do work with a very newbornbaby, absolutely no problem, and
(04:46):
slightly sleep deprived, veryhormonal. I went to a wonderful meeting
with Ann Marie Archer and JoBetterton at the NHS London Leadership
Academy. And in that meeting Irandomly came up with the idea of
doing a podcast series ofthree episodes for leaders in the
NHS of how they combine bigcareer with small children, and asked,
(05:07):
oh, could you maybe give me£300 to buy the equipment to do the
recording? And yeah, so notthought it through, hadn't thought
of this before the meeting.You know, my breasts were leaking
and very sleep deprived. Andso. And they said, to my surprise,
yes, let's do it. And so I waslike, okay, I have to actually do
it now. And yeah, that's howit all started.
(05:28):
Great. And it just shows thatsometimes just taking that brave
leap can lead to really greatthings. And I know that from one
part of my role isinterviewing lots of our fellows
and many of them mentioned thepodcast. So I know that it does have
a really great impact forpeople listening, especially helping
them not to feel alone andtaking lots of practical advice as
(05:48):
well. And so, on that theme ofstarting things, why and how did
you start Leaders plus?
Yeah, so I never saw myself orI didn't have a big plan to start
Leaders Plus, but I was aregional director in the charity
Teach first, and I was, youknow, I had. It was at the time and
(06:09):
I think still is now quite asupportive organization and a plan
to go back to that, obviouslya very safe salary and all that.
But I had a bit of a cultureshock when I had my first. I'm sure
I told you this before manytimes, Helen, but when I had my first
baby, I really did have aculture shock because I thought nothing
would change. And on thewhole, I don't think I massively
(06:31):
changed, but how peopleresponded to me really changed, or
at least I felt it that way.And people really started talking
to me quite differently aboutmy future career. They seemed to
assume that I was now going onwhat the Americans call the mummy
track, and I wasn't interestedin big project exciting things. And
that was such a shock for me.And I really. It really shook me
(06:52):
up quite badly. I. I justthought, oh, my goodness, what have
I done? Have I ruinedeverything? And for someone who was
and is very passionate aboutcareer, and for someone who's this
part of a strong identity,that was really shocking. And I thought,
obviously I was whining to mypartner, as you do, and he said,
well, you need to get yourselfsome role models. You know, there
(07:13):
are people out there. And so Ithought, okay, fine, I'm very good
at organizing events. I dothat quite easily. So I thought,
why don't I try to find seniorleaders who are inspirational, who
show that actually you canstill be a leader of your children
and get them in front of me.Then I thought, all right, I don't
have budgets for this, so Ineed to find someone to give me a
free space. And I've wrote toa lot of the big companies saying,
(07:35):
I have this idea. I want toget 60 leaders and 40 babies into
a room and talk about careerprogression. Would you give me a
space? And they say, oh, noinsurance. I won't name names. But
you can think of pretty muchall the big companies who have famous
names and an office in centralLondon. I've written to them. They
all said no or ignored me. Andthen again, actually, Dean suggested
(07:56):
that I should speak to mylocal MP, which never crossed my
mind. And I thought, oh, whata silly idea. But I did it anyways.
And funnily enough, so shedidn't have children, her name is
Heidi Alexander, but she said,oh yeah, I'll support you, you can
have a room in the House ofCommons. So that was really lovely.
And then I did not know anyrole models, of course, of senior
leaders or young children. SoI just went on Twitter, tried to
(08:19):
stalk people, and to mysurprise, I asked quite a few, some
really inspirational peoplesaid yes. So Geraldine Strasti, I
think cbe, so really seniorperson, one of the most senior people
in psychiatry in the whole ofthe United Kingdom, had sai yes
and was very inspirational.Karen Blackett, who was the CEO and
then chairwoman of Mediacom,again said yes. And I had, I think
(08:44):
at the time also I didn't haveany mummy sounds like a terrible
life, but I didn't have anymommy friends because I thought instead
of going to an NCT class, mypartner and I decided that he would
go to a dads only class and Iwould attend the NHS class. But as
a result, I didn't have mummyfriends yet. And yeah, so I just
told some of my few reallylovely mummy friends, including Bea
Stevenson, who does have a lotof mummy friends, who then sent a
(09:06):
WhatsApp to all her friends orwhatever it was at the time. And
that's how we ended up. So weended up filling a room of 60 and
we did have lots of babiesthere. Sorry, I'm rambling on a little
bit. I hate it when podcastguys do that. But for me personally,
that's where the need started.And then when I realized after the
event, which was veryinspirational, I noticed that there
(09:27):
was need to do more becauseall those people were now inspired.
But actually they neededsupport, they needed mentorship,
they needed support on how todeal with those conversations of
how you set boundaries butstill be invited to the big ticket
conversations. How you makesure that you're picked for promotion,
that people are activelythinking of you, how you make sure
(09:48):
that when you apply to fulltime role, you negotiate that to
be four days a week, if that'swhat you want, and how you make sure
that you have the confidenceto do it your own way, even if all
your aunties and uncles andpeople at work say, well, actually
no, you should either go fulltime, otherwise you never progress,
or why are you such an evilperson to keep working? So because
(10:08):
of that, I then founded SocialEnterprise Leaders plus and I was
very lucky to get support fromthe Society for the Arts and Commerce
and also Cambridge SocialVentures. And yeah, that was the
start of it and then now sevenyears on, it's become also, thanks
to your help, Helen, a reallyimpact driven organization with quite
a serious demand for change.In that we take people who are parents
(10:32):
but who want to progress andwe really, it's almost like injecting
them with the network, thesupport, the access to opportunities
to insights that help them todo it their way. Also connect them
with other people who are like minded.
Yeah. And it's incredible. Ihope you're very proud when you look
back to that first event inthe House of Commons and I think
(10:53):
shows so much courage that weask all of our Leaders plus community
to have and you definitely area shining example of that. And as
you said, Leaders plus wasgrown and you actually received an
MBE for your work with Leadersplus. And how did that make you feel?
Was that something youexpected or was it one of those oh
(11:15):
moments?
It was really funny. Again, Ithink I've told you this story before.
I was checking my emails and Igot a message saying you need to
provide your details becauseyou will receive an MBE and you have
to complete your address andwhatnot. And I didn't think anything
to it because I thought thisis obvious spam. It was during the
pandemic. So it wasn't awritten letter, it was an email.
(11:36):
And I mentioned it in passingto Dean again, I should make him
a listen to this podcastepisode so he feels appreciated.
But yeah, he said, oh, youknow, why don't you call the Cabinet
Office up and see if it'sreal. Okay then I'll do that. And
it turned out yes, it was realand I still made them really make.
You know, I tried to my bestnot to give away personal.
(11:56):
You're probably too careful.
But yeah, absolutely. Andyeah, it was. I mean to be honest,
I felt like I didn't deserveit, but I still. Which is probably
not the inspirational messageyou wanted to hear from someone who
all advocates with speaking.But I think it just showed like that
was my initial reaction. Butthen I thought, well actually probably
(12:17):
a lot of people in mysituation would feel that. And if
you were part of an all boysnetwork and for years and decades
you've been told you'rebrilliant, then you probably wouldn't
feel that. So I thought okay,I'll just ignore that. And I was
thinking about accepting itjust a little bit on the back of
it obviously does say BritishEmpire and they're all sorts of colonial
(12:37):
associations with it. But thenI thought about the good I can do
with it and it really doesopen doors because people respond
to your emails a little bitmore. They think you're a different,
you know, you're a very worthyperson, which obviously there's absolutely
no difference to me before andafter MBE, but it does have an impact,
so that's why I took it and.
(12:59):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Andhave you always been driven by a
strong sense of purpose andmaking an impact?
Yeah, I think so. I've. Myparents are very. They're both GPs
and they've been very activein their local village. So I've been
always raised with like,making differences part of what you
(13:23):
should do. During theChristmas event period, we had to,
I think, give up sweets to getmoney for giving to charity and all
sorts of, like, trying tobrainwash us into doing good, which
has worked. And I ampassionate about all sorts of social
justice causes. So I used towork for Teach first, which is all
about education, socialjustice. I volunteered with Refugees
(13:45):
at Home, which is aboutintegrated refugees. We used to host
homeless young people withNight Stop in our house. So those
wanting to make a differencewas always part of what I do. And
I think you and I, we bothknow we could spend our time in much
easier ways and probably earna much higher salary, but to me it's
absolutely. I shouldn't saythis to my direct report, but yeah,
(14:10):
yeah.
So, yeah, I think, I mean, Iknow that for me, nothing fills me
up more, you know, work wisethan going into those Leaders plus
sessions and hearing ourfellows stories and the actions they've
taken and the impact theprogramme has had. It's always a
really fills you up and I justwondered whether there were sort
(14:30):
of any moments for you thatreally stick with you, of those kind
of impact stories?
Yeah, I think so. Every time Ijoin one of the sessions that we
run and we ask the fellowswhat actions they've taken, that
always really, your languagefills me up. That's exactly how I
feel. But I can think of oneperson who. So at the moment we really
(14:54):
track who has taken action. Sothis sounds Machiavellian, but we
are, because we know it's theimplementation of the things that
we teach that that's whatmakes a difference. We really track,
we encourage, we ensure thatpeople, we provide the support so
people can make the changethat they're. Why they're joining
the fellowship. At the time,we didn't at the very beginning,
(15:14):
and I was absolutely blownaway by one lady who worked for an
energy company and who justwent away and asked her boss for
a pay rise and a promotionduring Maternity leave. And she said,
I would have never done thatwithout Leaders Plus. And to me at
(15:34):
the time, I was. Now mychildren are much older, but at the
time I was still quite a youngmother. That was such a powerful.
It really made me so happy tosee how there was this tangible impact.
And to be honest, that alsohelped me to keep going and make
into a really high impact,highly respected program.
Yeah, absolutely. I think, Imean, you know, there's a whole spectrum,
(15:56):
isn't there, of impact that wesee. And it is always a real privilege
to hear about it. Andespecially when people say that line
of, I wouldn't have done thatwithout the Leaders plus fellowship,
I think is so painful.
What about you, Helena? I'venever asked you, actually.
I think, like you say, everytime we get to be at a session, you
know, which is a big part ofmy role, which I'm very, very happy
(16:18):
about, and going around theroom and I think actually something
seems quite small thathappened just before Christmas with
one of our NHS sessions. Andone of the fellows said that the
action she'd taken was toemail her line manager with all the
dates of her Christmasobligations and nativities that she
had for her children and tojust give notice that she wouldn't
(16:42):
be able to be in on thosedays. And she said, you know, without
the program, I wouldn't havedone that. I would have left it to
the last minute and I wouldhave felt really guilty and then
I would have. And I, for me, Ijust thought, oh, it's just. It's
so great that it's empowering,you know, someone to do that and
then have that, you know, weknow is not always a special experience,
going to nativity, dependingon your school. But I think on the
(17:04):
whole, that special moment andknowing that you can be there without
any of the kind of guilt andworry, and I think that as well,
was a really powerful moment,I felt.
Yeah. Especially in the NHScontext, that's not a done thing
at all. And you have, I thinka lot of our fellows, they have to
be pioneers in some shape orform. They might be the first one
having those negotiations,being the first one at certain levels
(17:26):
of seniority.
Yeah, definitely. And I thinkhearing people are doing it and knowing
that, I think just having thatsense of change, I think is just
such a positive thing to haveit have in our lives. And you kind
of touched on then what kindof maybe gets you through the tough
times. And I know that, youknow, like you say you're a mum of
three, you're running a socialEnterprise. There are difficult times.
(17:49):
I know. And I just wondered,you know, what keeps you going in
those moments.
Yeah. So I actually reallyenjoyed when we did. Do you remember,
I think it was just beforeChristmas when we had the senior
director CEO fireside chat andwe had a group of CEOs sharing. And
that was so powerful for mepersonally. And what one of them
(18:10):
shared was that when you run,you know, when the buck stops with
you in an organization, therewill always be time where you just
have to step in. And usuallyyou can manage your work life balance
really well in a senior role,which is true. But when things hit
the fan, that's when you needto step in. So for me, what actually
helps me. I'm sure you werehoping for an inspirational story
(18:30):
here, but sorry, what helps meis just to accept that yes, it Sadly,
if there's a problem with ourVAT reporting that we need to sort
out and we need to spend agesin spreadsheets to make sure everything
is correct. And that involvesmy time despite the best delegation.
Just because it does, that isjust okay. And that is part of it.
(18:51):
And I'm not expecting eternalhappiness and inspiration. And then
I think on the flip side ofit, I do really crave. And that's
why I keep saying to you Iwant to be at the fellow sessions.
I want. Because that is whatkeeps me going. Honestly, I need
to see people and I need tosee people and hearing about the
impact, otherwise I willdefinitely lose motivation. And then
(19:15):
I think the other thing thatkeeps me going is learning. I really
love learning and challengingmyself. So last, just before Christmas,
I set up this AI learninggroup which was so much fun with
a group of fellows andmentors. And I just as I came here,
I know it's very random, butit gave me so much energy, I had
so muhc fun.
I mean, I know you love AI. Ido now as a result of that group.
You know, it's great thataspect of always learning. And practically
(19:38):
speaking, when you know,things are on a fairly even keel,
how do you manage thoseboundaries? Because you know, I have
to say, working within ourteam, I think it's. You're a great
example and it's funny, but Iwill often think to myself, you know,
Verena's done that, then it'sokay for me to do that. And I think
you do do that really well.Whether or not you're really doing
(19:59):
it, you. You sort of set theexample really well. But what would
you say that you do?
I'm laughing because I'mHearing my children now running through.
And this might be very much anexample of where they're coming home
from school with that. And wemight not have a boundary here because
they have spotted. Just goingto make sure. So listeners, I'm going
to have to make sure the dooris closed. So nobody knows.
(20:20):
Boundary setting in action.
But I think there's somethingalso about sometimes breaking your
boundaries. So I find it verycathartic sometimes to work a few
hours in an evening just towork through something and get a
report Right. And so on. Idon't do it often, but I do sometimes
allow myself. I don't feellike I need to stick to it all the
(20:41):
time. But generally I do notwork after hours. I might be on my
phone and looked at,especially if my children misbehave.
I might actually use LinkedInas a bit of a cause are, you know,
like other people use Facebookand look at that. And I might think
of something work related. Butgenerally it is for me, it's been
a habit and I had to learn itthe hard way. I used to think that
(21:05):
I'm better at my job if I workvery long hours, and that was even
before I had children. Butthen I got some tough feedback saying,
actually, you're workingreally long hours. You're setting
a bad example. You're notadding more volume in those hours.
And I didn't listen to that.And I really dialed it back. Yeah,
yeah, I think that helped. Andjust having children helps. I mean,
(21:25):
that's the other thing interms of setting boundaries I used
to try to have. So we recruitsenior leader mentors, and you do
that now brilliantly. And sowe have interviews with them and
they're busy people. So I usedto have a call with them on a day
where I don't work. It alwayswent terribly wrong every single
time. My children would bevery well behaved all day. They would
choose that half an hour tohave a screaming fit. So, yeah, I
(21:46):
just learned it's not. Itdoesn't work. Yeah.
(25:55):
And I think that shows, youknow, what we say a lot on the fellowship
as well is finding what worksfor you. And I actually remember
my first kind of cohortonboarding and you said to me, helen,
I won't be impressed if by theend of this you're absolutely exhausted.
And you, you know, you justhave worked so hard to get all these
(26:15):
interviews done and everythingthat won't impress me. You need to
manage your diary and tell meif you're not able to do it. And
that was quite a learningthing for me because I think before,
like you say, you kind ofthink, oh, if I get all of this done,
I'm going to be praised. Butyou were like, no, not if it's at
the expense of you beingexhausted because actually you won't
(26:36):
do the best job you can withthat. And it really stuck with me.
And also on that note, I thinkdoing what's right for the individual
is such a theme of thefellowship that we're always, you
know, the diversity in theroom is always really interesting
as well because people arefinding their own way. And you know,
sometimes I do like to log onon a Sunday if I've been on leave
(26:58):
because actually I can thenenjoy the rest of my afternoon not
guessing what might have comein, but knowing and. But for some
people, they like to go rightto the end of their leave. And so
I think it is really a reallyimportant point about, you know,
finding your own boundariesand what is right for you. And what
would you say is the biggestchange you've seen? Sort of from
(27:22):
starting Leaders plus to now?We're all about driving change and
it's small steps for sure. Butis there something different you
feel.
In the wider environment, I'mnoticing that people talk about career
progression for parents and Ireally think we've made a significant
contribution to that becausewhen I started Leaders plus the maternity
(27:43):
coaches all talked aboutboundaries and work life balance,
which are important and goodtopics. But nobody was brave enough
to say, well, actually workingparents deserve to progress their
careers even if they do wantto be there for their children. And
I think that has definitelychanged. I've also seen a very welcome
(28:04):
focus on data and looking.Actually, is an intervention making
a difference or is it justmaking people feel good? And our
partners, I think are reallygood because they are interested
in what is the work that we'redoing together. Making a real change
in terms of number of peoplepromoted, number of people staying
(28:24):
with the organization, impacton well being. And I think that's
quite exciting for both of us,isn't it? To really make a difference
on actually real people'slives and not just hot air, blah,
blah.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.And what would you say you're proudest
of?
I think I'm proudest that if Iwas hit up by a bus or something
(28:48):
like that or something morejoyful that it would, I think, I
think it would continue. And Ithink that's a really, that's a really
hard thing to achieve. Veryoften an organization could become
very dependent. And I'm sure,it's still more dependent than I
would like it to be on me, butI think that's something I'm proud
of. And I'm also proud thatI've changed my own ways of working.
I've really challenged myself.I've always had coaching. I've been
(29:10):
part of the Help to Growprogram from Brunel University. I've
been supported by theUniversity Social Ventures program
and I'm really proud that Icontinue to learn and stretch myself.
I always think I can do moredefinitely. But I'm quite proud that
I'm definitely not the sameleader as I was a year ago. I think
(29:30):
anyways, you might, you cantell me off the record afterwards
if you disagree, but that's my thinking
Definitely, and I think, youknow, Leaders plus is testament to
that because we never stop,you know, we're always looking and
that's, you know, how can wemake a bigger impact? How can we
reach more people, how can we,you know, refine the program to make
sure that, you know, it'shaving a deeper impact? And that's
(29:52):
definitely testament.
I don't think I'm proud as anindividual but I think I'm proud
of us as a team of reallystretching ourselves and making sure
that we did the research work.The career progression caps really
shape employers views of whatthe data of what working parents
experience, why they sayworkload is a massive issue, how
actually most of them do wantto progress but only 30% say they
(30:12):
can do it with their employer.I think that's really exciting. It's
super exciting that we workedwith HSBC to support them, to understand
their internal working parentsexperience and supporting them through
that research to actually thatthat was really exciting and I think
I can't say too much detailbut the reason why that was exciting
is because that involvedhaving lots of really brave and ambitious
(30:32):
conversations and it had areal impact on the frontline. And
then I'm really excited aboutthe senior directors group that we've
just had. I mean personally Ijust get a lot from it because I'm
at that career stage. Theother CEOs and senior directors are
as well. I'm enjoying it butI'm also really proud that we are
making a difference to thatgroup, that level of seniority. And
(30:53):
we're recording this in twodays. We're going to have our first
face to face session with ourfuture leaders. So people who haven't
got a career progression yetwho perhaps feel they want to now
start taking off in theircareer, yeah, that would be Exciting.
Yeah, I'm really excited aboutthat and I think that's what's definitely
since in my time at LeadersPlus, I love that we are kind of
(31:16):
branching out to offersomething to everybody, you know,
no matter what sort of stagethey are at. So I think that is really
exciting that we're startingthat on Wednesday. And can I ask
you, what do your childrenthink of your work?
Well, they think it's boring,honestly. They've said. My 8 year
old has said that because theythink it involves sitting in front
(31:37):
of the computer.
Yes.
I don't think they understandand I'm probably bad at communicating
it to them. I don't think theyunderstand the need for our work,
but maybe. Exactly. But I'mreally proud that they understand
sexism. So even my 8 year oldwill pick things from a book and
say, mommy isn't this sexist.So something must have seeped through.
(31:59):
What they really appreciate isthat I sometimes bring back biscuits
from our face to face eventsbecause they're left over and we
don't want to waste the socialenterprise resources and they really
appreciate that. So they, theythink mummy's work involves sitting
in front of a computer andeating biscuits.
Yeah, perfect. I just share mydaughter, my children older than
(32:20):
yours and we were watching aTV program in which there was a mum
who was - It's Modern Family,it's quite old now, so it's a bit
dated but we're kind of rewatching it with them and there was
a part where the mum in one ofthe families was, you know, talking
about how she given up hercareer to be a mum. And my daughter
Hazel said to me, oh mum,that's why your organization exists.
(32:40):
And it was just such a lovelymoment. Like I was just like, oh,
they do listen to me, they dounderstand. And yeah, that was a
lovely moment.
Oh, that's very sweet.
Yes, really was. And we hear alot. Like you said, we have senior
leader mentors that is such aprivilege to hear their thoughts
(33:00):
on combining ambitious careersand senior careers with parenting
and our fellows as well. But Ijust wondered, what advice would
you share with your bestfriend about combining an ambitious
career with family life? Theywere just about to embark on it.
Yeah, I was actually in thatsituation recently and it was someone
(33:21):
in academia, which is aparticularly challenging field because
of the level of insecurity, ajob insecurity. And I think the most,
again you're probably hopingme that I will be very inspirational
and I will not be, but I thinkI just said to her, like, it is Hard.
It's not easy, but there areplenty of people that are able to
(33:42):
do it. And if you want to doit, you probably want to do it for
the right reasons, because youwant to make a difference, because
you have something to add. Andthat's an absolutely okay ambition
to have. And if you are doingit despite it being hard, you're
going to be part of thecommunity of making it easier for
future generations. I alsodirect her to the podcast, and I
think that that is somethingthat has really changed for me as
(34:02):
a result of the podcast,because I get to interview so many
amazing senior leaders and thewhole point so many of them make
that they still experienceguilt, and that's okay. They keep
going regardless. They stillhave the imposter syndrome, but they
keep going regardless. Andthey still are questioning sometimes
whether they're not doingright by their children. But then
(34:23):
when I interview the olderpodcast guests who are towards the
end of their careers, everysingle one, without exception, tell
me that actually it isentirely, you know, the children
are entirely delighted withtheir careers. They never once thought
that they would. Theysuffered. They're very proud. And
for me, that's such a big,important message that. And I think
that has changed for me as aresult of all these interviews that
(34:45):
our life is hopefully long andthings are going to change. And how
you see your situation todaymight be quite different from how
you see it. They are also allthe podcast guests, even the ones
with kids in their 20s and30s, they say, I still worry so much
about them, so maybe that willnever go away.
Yeah, I think it's just wehave these conversations all the
time. It just changes, doesn'tit? Like, it's, you know, they're
(35:08):
very different stages, howyou. When your children are growing
up. But, you know, my mum saysto me, you know, she still worries
about me, and I've got my ownchildren, and it's just. I think
it's just different. And, youknow, it affects your career maybe
differently, but it's, youknow, being a parent and having a
career, like you said, it ishard, but it is also, if it's right
(35:30):
for you, it is the right thingto do. And like you said, it is hopefully
making that easier for, youknow, our children. And that's what
I mean when I say maybe I hopethe children never do have to understand
what you do, because theywon't embrace a world in which they
have quite so many.
Yeah. And I think it's evenmore important now than ever that
(35:50):
we do become this countermovement because we're recording
this just after the weekendwhere Mark Zuckerberg announced that
they're going to scrap the DEIin Meta. The agenda pay gap, according
to the WEF, still would takemore than 130 years to close and
so on and so forth. So I thinkthrough living our lives differently
and saying, well, actually,no, we do want to have roles with
(36:13):
power and we do want to havechildren. I think even though it's
hard, it's really important todo that.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.And I don't mean this question to
sound sort of morbid, but whatdo you. Would you like to be remembered
for? What do you hope peopleremember about you?
Well, I'm really hoping thisis not. I wonder how long this is
going to live. Hopefullynobody's going to play this at my
(36:36):
funeral. Yeah. Now I feel veryraw, but thanks, Helen.
Yeah, sorry, that was a bit ofa downer.
Let's end on a downer. Goodidea. Hopefully that I was someone
kind who cared about thepeople in my life and that I acted
with integrity and even whenmaking tough decisions, did that
(36:56):
with the back of respect forother people and that I continued
stretching and learning andmaking a difference. Yeah. And it
would be lovely to have newideas that we've implemented that
are like, shaping and havebeen absorbed into the fabric like
that focus on careerprogression for working parents.
(37:17):
But hopefully some of our newwork as well, like the work that
we do together online might.
Yeah, absolutely. Finally,then, if you think back to Verena
in, I think 2017 was it whenLeaders plus began. You're about
to embark on this journey.What would you tell her?
Just not to worry too much andjust get on with it. I would say
(37:37):
not to overthink things andjust do it.
Yeah.
Great.
Well, thank you so much. Ithas been really lovely to talk to
you about Leaders plus andyour own journey. And I really hope
our listeners have enjoyed alittle insight into your experiences
of setting up Leaders plus andyour family life as well.
(38:00):
Thank you. And thank you formaking it comfortable. I was very
nervous and at first a bitresistant, but because our wonderful
new team member Prachi madethis as one of her first suggestions,
I thought, oh, no, I can't sayno to one of her first ideas. So
here we are. But thank you toyou, Helen, and to Prachi for making
us do this. I really enjoyedthe conversation with you.
Me too. Me too. Thank you.
(38:22):
I really appreciate you listening.
Thank you so much.
And I always love to hear fromour listeners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn. Just goto Ferena Hefti and I'll be delighted
to hear your feedback and.
Your suggestions or just haveyou say hi.
Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
(38:42):
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment, podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chargingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast, our fellowship
(39:04):
program, and if you want to dothe same, then please head over to
LeadersPlus.org/fellowship iorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combinean ambitious career with young children
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
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