Carin-Isabel Knoop - Control Isn’t Everything: Embracing Kindness in Life, Parenting, and Leadership
November 13, 2024 • 46 mins
Trigger warning: miscarriage
Today, Verena welcomes Carin-Isabel Knoop for an especially thought-provoking podcast episode on embracing kindness in life, parenting and leadership.
Very apt, given earlier this week, we celebrated #WorldKindnessDay.
Carin is the Executive Director of the Harvard Business School Case Research and Writing Group and was previously a consultant at McKinsey and Price Waterhouse Coopers.
The conversation includes reflections on managing as a solo parent whilst pursuing an ambitious career, learning to let go of control, filling support gaps, and considering how we can all contribute to more compassionate workplaces.
Carin and Verena also have a moving discussion about supporting someone through pregnancy loss.
We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Show Notes:
- Read Carin and Verena's 2024 Mother's Day proclamation.
- Learn more about Compassionate Management of Mental Health in the Modern Workplace.
- Follow Carin on Medium.
- Find support during miscarriage via The Miscarriage Association.
Interested in progressing your career after having children? The award-winning Leaders Plus Cross-Sector Fellowship is specifically designed for working parents with management responsibilities who want to progress their careers and reach their full potential professionally. Find out more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male middle class peopleleading our organizations. We must
change this together and Ihope that many of you listening right
now will progress to the mostsenior leadership roles that you
like where you can make thedecisions that make our world a better
(00:44):
place. Outside of the podcast.I am the CEO and founder of the Social
enterprise Leaders Plus. Weexist to help working parents progress
their careers to seniorleadership in a way that works for
you and for your families. Wehave free events and resources on
leadersplus.org where you candownload helpful toolkits such as
(01:05):
on returning from maternityleave, share parental leave, securing
a promotion, dealing withworkload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back. Together you'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family. And you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program. Be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with
the courage that they instillin each other to do what is right
for them without apologizingfor having a family or apologizing
(02:14):
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship
today I'm chatting to CarinIsabel-Knoop, parent, author and
in the day job ExecutiveDirector for Case Research and Writing
Group at Harvard BusinessSchool. She's the author of the book
(02:37):
Compassionate Management ofMental Health in the Modern Workplace.
We talk about loss, we talkabout control and what she has learned
from caring for her daughterand her elderly mother. I found the
conversation very thoughtprovoking and I hope that you get
something from it too. Thankyou for listening.
(02:58):
Absolutely, Verna, thank youso much for having me here in the
family of fellow workingparents. It's really a joy. So who
am I? I guess that's thehardest question that we're ever,
ever asked. I do tend toanswer with genetics. So I'm half
French, half German. I comefrom two very, very different parents.
My mother was a FrenchCatholic educated class who married
(03:22):
a German peasant pretty muchafter the war. They traveled a fair
bit. My father worked in theForeign service. So I grew up in
many different places,including Asia and Africa, and then
came to the US I work atHarvard Business School. I write
case studies, which arebasically stories about how people
make decisions, work with alot of leaders, and I manage a team
(03:44):
of 20, 20 people. So I'minterested in how people learn, how
people make sense of theirworld. I don't have many hobbies.
I basically just write allday. A little bit nerdy. I have a
daughter who's 25 years old,and I guess that is who I am. I like
to have people hoover. I liketo talk to people like you who are
(04:06):
from different disciplines. Iguess that's it.
Wonderful. And let me ask youa question that we ask all the podcast
guests. What is one thing thatyou used to believe about combining
a big career with childrenthat you've changed your mind on?
So what? I got feedbackrecently from my daughter. I asked
(04:28):
her, you know, what is it thatI need to apologize to you for, which
is a flip side of a practicein the Jewish faith around the high
holidays. And she said thatone of my greatest strength was that
I tended to see a lot ofdifferent sides of every story. So,
for example, she would comeback and she had been upset at work,
and she would say, you know,Verena pushed me off the monkey bars.
(04:52):
And I would say, well, youknow, maybe Verena was having a bad
day. Had you bothered Verenabefore? And she said, you know, in
those moments, I just wanted ahug. I didn't want a dissertation
about everything that couldhave possibly happened. And now she's
happy that she has this trait.But I think this trait has made it
so that I've always tended toquestion everything. So I'm not sure
(05:13):
that I had any particularpersistent notion. I did think that
the notion of having it all atthe same time didn't strike me as
logically possible. And Ihaven't changed my mind about that.
I don't think. Maybe I thoughtthat the workplace would be less
challenging than it is,because in some ways, we have so
(05:35):
many things going for us. Wehave much more neuroscience to understand
how we operate. Many of us aremore trained in conflict management
than we used to be. CertainlyI never had any such training when
I was young. But we aren't. Somaybe I've changed my mind about
predicting an easier workplacewhen it hasn't felt that way to people.
(05:56):
That's really interesting andI'm interested. You mentioned the
word predicting, and I'mreally curious. You obviously have
what many from the outsidewill say an absolutely lustrous career
as an executive director atHarvard Business School. You have
successfully kept a humanbeing alive in your daughter and
raised her. And you've alsolooked after your elderly mother.
(06:19):
And I'm interested, when youset out on your career and family
journey, what was your visionof how career and family life would
be like? And did that happenor did something different happen?
So I actually had absolutelyno vision. And I think I knew that
I would want to share my lifewith someone. I wasn't that clear
(06:41):
that I absolutely needed tohave children compared to some of
my other girlfriends. And thenironically, you know, I wound up
with a wonderful life partnerwho happens to be my daughter, but
not, you know, a life partner.Life partner. I got some very good
advice, actually, from afaculty member at Harvard Business
School when she found out thatI was getting married. And she told
(07:01):
me, she says, don't make thesame mistake I did, which is, I thought,
I have my career, I'll addmarriage, and then when I have children
and I'll add children. And shesays, it's a finite vessel. You'll
have to make choices aboutwhat you're going to do less of in
order to add something. And Ithink that high achieving individuals
(07:21):
maybe have this tendency tothink that they can take more and
more things on. So I didinternalize that at some point. And
I chose a career in academiafor an employer that is very, very
supportive of its employeeswith a fair, you know, bit of time
off, especially in the UScompared to what we have in Europe.
(07:43):
So I think I made a choice orinternalized that advice to some
extent. To another extent, Ididn't externalize at all. I don't
think I made enough time formy marriage. I didn't make enough
time for my husband. I wasbusy working. I, you know, needed
to pay the mortgage. So Ithink, like a lot of us, I made mistakes,
probably the exact opposite ofwhat I was trying to avoid.
(08:05):
So it sounds like you didn'tplan to be a solo parent when you
set out. And I'm reallyinterested in picking up on this
because many of our listenersare solo parents. And when you look
at the data in the uk, I'msure it will be similar in other
countries. Sadly, the careeroutcomes for women, especially women
(08:25):
who are solo parents, aresignificantly worse then. And I'm
not saying this to scareanybody, I'm just saying it to put
up the facts that careeroutcomes are worse than of women
who have a partner who helpsto look after children. Obviously,
I know there are lots ofdifferent arrangements and family
setups, including coparenting, but I'm just interested.
(08:46):
Did that ever cross your mindas a risk? And how did you still
get to the place where you arenow, despite the challenges? Sorry,
that's long and windy Question.
No, I think the question, youknow, reflects the depth of all of
these aspects. Then, you know,these situations sort of entails.
So maybe I'll just pick out acouple of things. So I definitely
(09:08):
did not plan to be a singleparent. I admire the people who go
on that road on their own. Ithink it's extremely difficult. I
did have the great luck ofhaving a fairly extensive community
of friends who then reallyhelped me. And then I took in medical
students, just have somebodyin the house and somebody who could
watch the baby while Ishowered. And at the time people
(09:31):
said, are you crazy? You'regoing to live with perfect strangers?
And I said, well, how else amI going to shower? She's 18 months
old, you know, so we're backto this notion of compromise, which
is I'll have to change the waythat I live to accommodate this new
situation. I think being asingle parent is a really, really
difficult situation becauseall of these changes in identity
(09:53):
are usually the places whereyou have, you know, these inflection
points that we also wroteabout in our book on management of
mental health in theworkplace, which is these inflection
points where you have a changeof identity are really, really tricky.
So I don't remember, you know,developing any form of depression
at the time, but honestly, Idon't remember anything of that first
(10:15):
year that I was alone. Youknow, I just tried to get up and
try to get my kid to schooland, you know, she came home at night
on the bus or I would get heror somebody else would get her and
then I would just survive. Soit's a very, very difficult time.
And I think when I've seenpeople in couples, you know, wanting
to separate, I've encouragedthem to really think long and hard.
(10:35):
Then if you separate, youmight wind up with the worst sides
of your ex partner. But youdon't have any of the good sides,
and, you know, that comes at agreat deal of loss. I think, you
know, employers or goodmanagers, if they do learn that somebody
is suddenly going through adivorce situation or one of these
inflection points, that'sreally the place where, as a manager
(10:58):
or as a fellow working parentor just as a fellow human being,
we can really reach out andsay, so how are you doing? The person
volunteers something. Andmaybe the person doesn't need you
to feel sorry for them. Maybethe person would welcome that. You
know, they could come and walkyour dog one day, you know, or I
have a free afternoon. Is itokay if I pick up your kid at work
(11:19):
for you? So I think I was veryblessed to have friends who were
willing to say, you know, tellme what you need. But then I was
also able to say what Ineeded, which I think is very difficult
for many of us because we'revery proud. And it's hard to ask
for help. It really is. Butthat would be one advice that I would
(11:41):
give single parents. There'sno shame in being different. There's
no shame in being divorced.There's no shame in being married.
But I think there's great riskin not being creative in how you
fill these support gaps.
I want to pick up on askingfor help, and it seems such an easy
thing to do.
Oh, gosh, no.
(12:03):
In theory, when you describeto someone this is what you need
to do, it sounds like astraightforward activity. What is
holding us back so much? Andespecially when we're high performers,
the listeners to this podcast,we're doing really well, want to
progress. Why is it sounbelievably difficult to ask for
help, and how can we get over it?
So I think some of it alsocomes back to this notion of seeming
(12:23):
in control. So a lot of ourprofessional life is, and even our
success in school, success insports is presenting in control.
Like, you know, I know how toperform. I have a grip over my emotions.
And maybe when we ask forhelp, it's an admission that we don't
have it all together or thatwe cannot do it all. So back to the
(12:45):
beginning of the conversationaround, there's only that much that
I can realistically do. Andthis is why I think, you know, this
overlap between parenting andmanagement is so fascinating. Why
it's been really wonderful towork with Leader plus and thinking
through, you know, what isthat we can learn from parenting
to improve our management isyou have a set of resources, and
then you have a set of needsand bridging that gap. I think sometimes
(13:08):
also we don't ask for helpbecause we don't like the help we
get, which is the same thingthat we see when we're managers.
Right. So this form ofmicromanaging only I can raise my
child is also a relatively newconstruct. You know, we used to outsource
raising children to thevillage. My kids spend a lot of time
at my neighbor's house andalternatively I would have their
(13:29):
kid over and that was okay.And did they parent in a different
way? Of course they did. But Ididn't feel a need to control. So
I think it's hard to ask forhelp when you feel that you want
to present a certain way. Andletting go of that need to present
as perfect, present as heroic,present as all knowing is really,
(13:49):
really hard when it's how we compete.
It is very true. And I thinkthere is something in that word compete
versus control. Because a lotof the listeners to this podcast,
they go against the grain.They have to, well, they want to
push themselves to go to arole where they can influence the
world more, where they havemore power and rightly so because
women and also men who takeout time for caring are really underrepresented
(14:13):
in those senior leadershiproles. So there is something about
you do have to to an extent,manage your brand, be seen to do
well in your career. But Iagree, I think in order to be happy
you need to let go and to beat ease with heaven. Things don't
go well and don't go to yourplan. And I'm just interested, I
(14:33):
mean Carney, when I every Ispeak to you come across as such
a personable person. But youmust be very like surely to work
at Harvard. You must be veryambitious and very, you know, you
must be performing very well.I've learned it from what when I
wrote with you, like yourstandards are super high in a good
way. So I'm just thinking howdo you combine that when you're that
type of personality and pleasetell me off if I'm. I've completely
(14:54):
mischaracterized you. How doyou combine being that type of high
performing personality withthe letting go of control which seems
so important for happiness?
So I'm a writer and so I'mattached to outcomes, maybe more
than process. And so in mywriting, in my collaborations, admitting
(15:16):
to a co author, I really haveno idea what this company is doing
is okay because if I don'tadmit it, the draft will not be good
at the end of the day. So Ibelieve that things always come out
somehow. But what matters tome is that it'd be a good case that
will support the faculty'sneeds in the classroom, that it'd
be a good piece that we writetogether that will help working parents.
(15:37):
And if for taking care of myparents and taking care of my daughter,
I think what I really wantedwas for them to be able to live the
life that they wanted, or inthe case of my parents, to have the
death that they would havewanted or that I thought they had
told me that they wanted. Andso how I got there and the extent
to which my ego mattered wasreally secondary, I think. Very nice.
(16:00):
And, you know, one thing that,now that I've used the word ego,
one thing that struck me agreat deal when my mother, who suffered
from Lewy Body Dementia, somefriends would come over to the house
and they'd be like, oh, hello,Ms. Charlette. You know, do you remember
who I am? And my mother wouldstare, and I would take my friends
aside, and I said, you know,it really doesn't matter who you
are in this human situation.Your role is to tell my mother she
(16:22):
looks great and to bring herthe cookies that she loves or blueberries.
That's all our role here. Andso I think this notion of what are
you really trying to achieve?So I'm very driven. I'm not sure
that I'm ambitious, but I'mvery driven. I'm driven about outcomes.
I'm not in control ofprocesses. I'll have to think about
(16:43):
that. It's an excellentquestion. Thank you for asking it.
You and I, we chatted beforewe came onto the podcast about this
increasing need in society tocontrol our kids. And I can really.
So I know this is notparenting podcast, but it just really
spoke to me because there is alot of pressure, and I'm definitely
falling into the trap oftrying to control how well my kids
(17:04):
are doing in the timestablesassessment, making sure that they
have team skills by forcingthem to do a team sports, which in
reality, they really don'twant to do. They just want to do
ballet, which I do not. I feelthat this. I want to support what
they're doing in theory.However, in practice, I am a little
bit resentful having to takeinto ballet. So I'm just thinking
(17:24):
how there is something. Andthere's additional work. This is
new work. This work ofcontrolling your kids hasn't been
there to the same extent 30years ago. So what is going on there?
Why are we suddenly so focusedon Controlling what happens to our
children's lives. Why can't wejust accept that what will be, will
be?
(17:44):
So first, thank you forsharing, honestly, sort of your emotions
and what resonated for me inyour answer was you're using very
managerial terms. Like, you'reliterally thinking, you know, what
are the life skills that mykids will need? What will be on their
resume? And so if you think ofwhat this could do to kids, could
(18:05):
be a little bit what we'redoing to employees, and maybe we're
literally burning out our kidsin a way, which is, you know, setting
expectations that are hard tomatch. So I think a couple of things
have really changed. You know,we're in different generations, which
is there was no social mediawhen I was a young parent. You know,
Facebook came along, 2006. Youknow, my daughter is seven years
(18:26):
old. So you could compare witheach other. Humans have always compared.
People have always competed.Women have always competed. Also,
I think, oh, you know, littleJudy is so much better than little
Bob and all of that, but whenyou add the sort of kerosene of social
media to it, it's a loteasier, right? And so in a way, you're
interviewing a dinosaur onthis topic, because if my daughter
(18:49):
didn't want to do ballet, Iwasn't constantly on Instagram watching
all the other kids being socute at ballet competitions. And
I was like, all right, shedoesn't want to do ballet. So I think
it's a lot harder now becauseyou're performing for a bigger audience.
As a parent, I think you usedto be performing for your own audience,
and your kid was alsoperforming for a much smaller audience.
(19:09):
Right? They didn't have tobrand themselves. They didn't have
to constantly refresh theirfeed. And even for kids on social
media, you know, control, in away is. And I'm not a psychiatrist,
you know, I come to all ofthese topics from the side of a business
risk, which is there's that ofhuman capital at work, you know,
in life, and how are we usingit, and what can we do to waste less
(19:30):
of it? So, you know, I know Ipartner with psychologists, psychiatrists,
but it's not my field. But Iwould say that, you know, hyper control
can be a form of maladaptivecoping mechanism, which is when we
feel a sense of loss, when wefeel a sense of, you know, the climate
is changing, you know, peopleare not civil anymore. Nobody believes
(19:51):
in science. You know, thegender roles are all difficult. The
news is all negative. So Ithink there is a general sort of
feeling, of loss. And when welose, you know, usually we do a couple
of things. You know, one is weunder control, which is, well, that's
the way it goes. You know, theclimate will burn out. Who cares?
(20:12):
You know, that's not alwaysadaptive. And then there's hypercontrol,
which is, I will be a vegan. Iwill criticize anybody who drives
an suv. Then there's escape,which is substance use, you know,
and overworking, I think,would probably be in that category.
We'd have to check with ourpsych friends if that would qualify.
Or over exercising or eatingdisorders, whatever it is that you
happen to control, which isyour body and your performance. And
(20:36):
then, you know, the final partis adaptive coping, which is, I can't
control everything, but thereare a few things that I can, and
I'll focus on those and do mybest to do those and understand that
loss and change is just partof life. And also part of life is
that you can't always get whatyou want. So not all of our girls
will become or, you know,prima ballerinas. Not all of our
(20:59):
boys will become, you know,the top dancers at the Bolshoi. So
that's very long winded offinding the right place. Back to
managerial principles, like,what are you really competing for?
You know, what is the ultimateprize here? Is it that your kid do
ballet, or is it that your kidhave life skills that enable the
child to deal with the factthat sometimes everything changes
(21:23):
all the time and you can'talways get what you want?
Definitely. I think it isdefinitely, for me personally, it's
definitely the life skillsone. And that's why I want them to
do team sports. And I've neverdone ballet, which is why I'm a little
bit negative towards it. But Iwill keep supporting my daughter's
passion, albeit reluctantly.You sound incredibly wise when you
(21:44):
talk about letting go of thatneed to control both at work and
your family. Have you alwayshad that attitude or how has it come
about?
So actually, I'll have tocredit maybe my daughter, although
that's more contemporary. Anexample, that's about 10 years ago,
but. And then maybe we will goback to my childhood. So when my
mother started to displaysigns of cognitive impairment, you
(22:07):
know, she would asked me whatI were eating for lunch. Salmon.
Five minutes later, the samequestion. And then I would get agitated.
And my daughter. One day, Iremember we were on holidays with
my mother, and, you know, thislittle child just pulls me aside
and she says, you know, mom,you loved me before I made sense.
Why can't you love your mothernow that she doesn't make sense anymore?
(22:29):
And whenever I think of that,it makes me tear up because it was
so profound, so wise and sotrue. And it was literally like a
light came on and I was like,my mother's suffering from a disease.
It's a terminal cognitivecondition. My option here is to take
care of her to the best of myabilities for all her needs, much
(22:53):
as I did when my daughter wassmall. So the wise one here, I think,
is my daughter Verena, notnecessarily me. Because that put
really a very, very sort offlashlight on this issue of what
am I really trying to do, towhat extent can I control it? So
I mentioned that my parentswere very different at the beginning
(23:14):
of our conversation. Myparents had a relatively passionate
but challenging union. Andthat dissolved. You know, I was very
happy playing in Africa, onthe beach. And all at once I was
in Paris in, you know, a backcourtyard, having to get up at school
and wear shoes. And it was allvery unfortunate. And I think that
early lesson of the separationof my parents taught me I should
(23:37):
be happy for every day that Ihave. Because tomorrow could be absolutely,
totally, suboptimallydifferent. And why I made that choice
somehow as a six year old is afunction also of genetics and context.
I could have made a verydifferent choice. I could have become
a very different child. Youknow, fear, anxiety serves a purpose,
(23:58):
but at some point it doesn't.And probably at some point there,
this little kid in thisbasement apartment was like, all
right, well, here I am. I havereally no choice. And that's. I have
the choice to sort of make themost of it. But it took me a while.
It took me a while. So maybe acombination of both of those.
(26:36):
Interesting. Thank you forsharing so openly. And it's fascinating
how these very challengingmoments are shaped from my perspective
is a very rare strength thatnot many people have. That ability
to focus and be driven, butalso to accept that not everything
is in your control.
(26:57):
I think you could also saythat, you know, maybe that is also
a form of maladaptive coping,which is you're over intellectualizing
situations. So I think that'sprobably my big weakness, which is,
you know, when my daughterjust wanted me to say, you know,
the person who pushed you offthe monkey bar is a terrible human
being. And, you know, I'llhave them punished and I love you
and you want spaghetti. Youknow, I over intellectualized the
(27:20):
situation. So it works. In away, my approach, Verena but it all
comes at a cost, like all ofour survival techniques. I think
it also makes me good at myjob, which is, you know, cases present,
there are different optionsfor all the scenarios. So I think
it's also just partly in mypersonality. I think the really tricky
(27:42):
thing with loss and controlwith children, and you said to what
extent do you encourage yourkids to do team sports and ballet?
Is that the role of the parentis to give children the opportunity
to develop skills that they doneed and I think push them to a certain
extent. But then you have tofigure out to what extent are you
pushing for your you or areyou pushing for them? And when they're
(28:06):
resisting or something isgoing on or even in academic performance,
you know, is this somethingthat is a temporary situation or
is it a reflection of anunderlying fear of, you know, being
in groups, of being present?So I think all of this is very tricky
as a parent to pick what youdo let go of and what you push for.
(28:29):
But I think the bottom line isthat it is an illusion that you are
going to control everything.And I'm saying that not as a sage
piece of advice, but as anactual realization, because I am
definitely not in the wisecamp. I am more in the control everything,
all the time camp. So I thinkthere is no way around it. You absolutely
have to let go of some ofthose things and give away power.
(28:52):
But there's never come back aperfect setup.
I would say no. And I thinkthe way to think about those, you
know, and there's a lot ofliterature around change management
in business schools. You know,one thing that always surprises me
about people's lack of Peopledon't like to change, but yet the
status quo that we inhabit isa product of change. Like, you know,
(29:15):
we would have met 200 yearsago, we would have been in very different
circumstances, and we wouldhave said, oh, isn't it great to
be here without sanitation?No. And, you know, our worlds today
are themselves a product ofchange. And then we don't want to
let go of the stability ofwhat we have. So it's always been
hard, but the world is hardtoo. You know, any news you open,
(29:39):
Everything feels out ofcontrol. Our leaders feel out of
control. So I think it'stotally. It's a very normal reaction,
I think, for us to want thebest for our children and to control
what we can, which is whatyou're doing.
Well, trying to. But I thinkthat's why it's good to recognize
that they're all people andindividuals as well, and not just
(29:59):
subjects of our control. Sothat makes me sound like a very bad
despot, which I may be, butyou know, that's okay.
No, but I think the samedynamic is true at work, which is,
you know, if you, if you treatyour employees like objects or pawns
to be moved, and if we'redoing the same thing to our children,
they know that we're managingthem and they know that we're performing
(30:21):
through them. And then thepressure on these kids to make sure
that they don't disappoint youmust be really, really challenging.
I mean, I think my parentsexpectations was I would, I was a
terrible tomboy, so then theyhoped that I would come home with
not another wound. And youknow, that was where they placed
the bar, probably.
Fair enough. And you're stillalive, which is good.
(30:42):
You're still alive. Yes.
One of the biggest areas thatyou can't control is that area of
getting pregnant and stayingpregnant. Now very often we can control
absolutely every aspect of ourlife or what we think we can. We
can order something off a bigonline platform easily. We don't
have to wait for a horse.Anyway, bad analogy. But there's
(31:05):
a lot that we can controlnowadays. But that is one thing that
we can't control. Andpregnancy loss is so unpredictable.
It is so difficult to be with.I was wondering what you've learned
from your writing and yourresearch about that transition that
pregnancy loss creates in state.
So last week was perinatalloss day in the US so I've miscarried
(31:31):
twice. There are about 2million miscarriages in the US every
year, about a millionvoluntary terminations of pregnancy.
So just open our hearts toeach other for just a second and
to the lives that and thatweren't before. We dive sort of in
the rational side of this. Youknow, it is a very particular kind
of loss. Many of the lossesthat we experience are. So we've
(31:55):
talked about sort of loss ofcontrol, which tends to be more diffuse.
But you know, when we lose aparent, it's like, oh, I'm so sorry.
For the most part, you know,these perinatal losses are invisible
or they're just to our veryclose ones. And then we expect to
go back to the office and justpretend that everything is okay.
And so in the US and I'vewritten a couple of articles also
(32:17):
about what employers can do tosupport grief and bereavement. There
are more and more employers inthe US that are providing pregnancy
loss time off. But there too,it tends to be one or two days, if
you're undergoing assistivereproductive technology, there may
be, you know, many more daysand many much more time that is needed,
(32:38):
much more counseling. So Ithink there's a lot here that employers
could be doing. I thinkaccepting that nature, where things
take a course, let's say forspontaneous abortions of miscarriages,
was very difficult for mealso. And I think reaching out to
each other, one of thewonderful things I think about social
(32:58):
media after criticizing it andabout us being all connected is that
it's a lot easier for us totalk about these things. So when
I miscarried, I didn't knowabout anybody else. But now when
we talk about it more, youunderstand that you are not alone.
You understand that it is notshameful. So it's one of these areas
where I think the more we talkabout, like you're enabling me to
(33:18):
vocalize emotions and reallyhave talked away, I think is a real
blessing because then we canbe there for each other and understand
that we are not alone. Onearea of reproduction that I find
really interesting, and Idon't know what the legislation is
in the US is around genomictesting. So in the US now there are
services that enable you to,you know, test an embryo, not just
(33:41):
for ivf, but in othercontexts. And so we're seeing this
same notion of trying to hypercontrol everything, making sure that
we produce a healthy babyextend to conception, which to me
is really problematic in a waybecause now I'm not just controlling
what sports my kid does, I'mliterally picking traits, performance
(34:03):
traits, you know, breedingthese hyper performance children.
But I think that's one way forparents to try to have the best possible
child because they themselvesfeel overwhelmed about what could
happen if the child were not.
That's very true. Just eventhe basic prenatal testing, in that
(34:24):
if you are of a certain ageand you're pregnant, you will automatically
be put into the pile of thisis the test you need to have. And
what you're saying reallyresonates and thank you for being
so open.
Another thing that I think hasreally changed, which is wonderful,
and Professor Ryan Buhl at HBSrecently wrote a case on Seven Starling,
which is a company thatprovides perinatal and postpartum
(34:47):
mental health care. And so onething that is not talked about, I
think enough, is that whenthere is a pregnancy interruption,
the whole host of identitychallenges, the whole host of just
hormonal changes, physicalchanges, depletion, tiredness, exhaustion,
unmet expectations areextremely complicated. And that is
(35:07):
you Know, ambiguous loss thatdoesn't really get acknowledged.
So one thing that I wouldencourage anyone who has or is experiencing
pregnancy loss is to use moreof these resources that are now available
in a way that they weren't. Mymother miscarried four times. You
know, she had no one. Today,women have a lot more support. And,
you know, we talked about thisin also when we wrote our new Mother's
(35:29):
Day proclamation, which isthis notion of extending parenting
through the entire arc of conception.
And you touched on whatemployees could do. Many of our listeners
are leaders, and even if theyhave had miscarriages, they might
still not know what is theright way to support someone. Is
(35:49):
there a simple right way tosupport someone who's going through
a miscarriage?
So I think there's alwayssimple, right ways to support anyone,
which is to try to get a senseof what the person might need. Because,
you know, it's. With griefalso, it's like that. You know, there
are some people for whom theloss of a parent who may have been
(36:10):
severely cognitively impairedor somebody who went through extensive
cancer treatments, it mightcome as a relief. And for others,
it might be really terrible.Like, when my mother passed away,
you know, I held her handevery night. It was a very primal,
tactile kind of relationships.And I literally had colleagues saying,
she's so much better off now.And I was like, how are you to judge
(36:34):
who's better off and who's.Whose life is worth living? So I
think in all of thesesituations of grief and support is
trying to signal as a leader,when something is happening in your
life that is difficult, youdon't need a lot of details. But
I think saying at teammeeting, today is an off day. I had
very difficult family newssignals, I think, to the team that
(36:55):
when it happens to them, theymight be able to come forward. I
think if you're willing toshare that you've had pregnancy loss
or just inquire with hr, hey,what are we doing? A friend of mine
had miscarriage. What wouldhappen if somebody in my team did?
So I think as leaders, we canalso reach out to HR and become more
(37:17):
present to what are actuallyour rules and what are the benefits
we're offering? Because manyof us have been in companies for
a long time, so you don't knowwhat is actually being offered. Same
thing with fertility benefits.And I think asking sometimes with
loss, saying less is betterthan more, which is, you know, how
can I support you? What is itthat I can do? What would help you
(37:37):
in this moment? But Silence isawkward. We fill in.
Absolutely. But I think sayingthat you are trying to say something
and that you're trying to bethere for them, even though you don't
know exactly what to do or howto be, I think that's already a really
important step. And everyone'sexperience of miscarriage is different.
(38:00):
So, like you say, we can'tassume what someone is going through.
And I think then you asked fora simple, effective method. I think
the just reminding you,reminding ourselves that however
compassionate and empatheticwe wish to be, we have no idea what
that person is going through.And this push towards empathy is.
I got you. Oh, I know what youfeel. Nobody can know what another
(38:24):
feels. And so I think justsilencing our own need to want to
fix and just opening aconversation for what might be helpful
to the other person. You know,actions speak louder than words,
which is, I can tell you amillion times, I'm so sorry your
mom died. Or I can say, hey,you know, if you have something that
(38:44):
needs proofing or doing atwork or submitting, my team will
do it for, you know, a coupleof hours today, and then you can
go home and rest. So thinkingabout actions, actions that help
the other, rather than wordsthat make you feel better, might
be a distinction that I could draw.
That's really helpful advice.Thank you. This also touches on something
(39:05):
else I'm interested in, whichis creating an environment where
people can ask for what they need.
Yeah.
Which is something you'vespoken about. And it's in those transition
moments where you'retransitioning from a pregnant person
to not being a pregnant personanymore, or you're in another intense
change of your life. Actually,that's when you're unsure of your
identity often, and you don'talways dare to ask for what you need.
(39:29):
What have you learned as aleader? How to make sure that you
create an environment sopeople ask for what they need.
So we talked a little bit, Ithink, about the modeling. I think
also about the asking. But Ithink the way you create an environment
is by doing two things as aleader. First is you sort of educate
yourself about what are theseinflection points. And so we've been
(39:50):
focused a little bit on thechallenging ones, maybe. I mean,
the parenting is a happy one,but also challenging one. Getting
married is a giant inflectionpoint. You know, people rush to the
wedding and it's all perfectand all the flowers are beautiful.
And then you wake up with thenext day and, you know, the socks
are in the bathroom, andyou're like, ugh. So the, you know,
promotions, I'm so excited I'mpromoted. Nobody talks to me anymore,
(40:14):
nobody wants to have lunchwith me anymore. You know, how do
I manage and manage this? Sothese inflection points come from
happy events, quote unquote,and sometimes from not so happy events.
So I think educating oneselfas a manager about this is important.
I think the other is trying tobecome self aware about your own
view of these moments and howthey might really bias you in your
(40:38):
response. So, you know,menopause is now having a moment
on the podcast all at once.We've discovered that, you know,
women have menopause. I had avery easy one and you know, so I'm
probably under indexing forpaying attention to my girlfriends
along these dimensions becausemy life experience is very, very
different. So I think managerscan be, can try to reflect on what
(41:01):
are the biases about thingsthat are hard and not hard that they're
bringing to the workplace andin which way might they not be paying
attention? You know, there arepopulations. For example, the men
in IVF treatment tend toreally be under supported because
a lot of the attention comesto the woman. And yet men experience
(41:22):
pregnancy loss also, ofcourse. But rarely do we ask, how
is your husband doing or how'syour partner doing reaching out to
them as a family. So thinkingabout what are the populations that
are underserved by our care asmanagers, I think is a useful, useful
discipline. And then the thirdsuper important, you know, do not
(41:43):
make these assumptions thatoh, poor thing, you got divorced
or.
Absolutely.
Yeah. Not easy.
I would like to come back tothe start of our conversation when
we started to talk about yourstory as a single or solo parent.
And I just wanted to ask you,as we're coming towards the end of
your book of this podcast,looking back at it, what have been
(42:03):
the really amazing thingsabout being a solo parent and combining
a big career?
Thank you for asking. So Ithink parenting is amazing. I think
it's a journey of discoveryand makes you a better human. They
ask all kinds of questions,questions. It's made me a better
manager, maybe a betterwriter, you know, maybe a better
popsicle sticker. I mean, it'sso. I think the act of parenting
(42:26):
is absolutely essential. 80billion people have done before us.
It felt natural and happy. Ithink one advantage of how it turned
out in our lives is that mydaughter had one pretty much one
anchor home and one anchor setof values. And I think it would have
been very challenging for meto be embroiled Every week in negotiations
(42:50):
around should she go to thedentist? Do we need braces? What
should we do about the personwho pushed her down the monkey bars?
So in a way, I had a highlevel of control, which is kind of
interesting for a person whoclaims she doesn't really like it.
But it did enable me tocontrol a lot of things in her upbringing
(43:11):
that I felt were important forher. I think because I was a single
parent, she was exposed tomaybe more of my friends, more disciplines.
I mentioned the medicalstudents who lived with us at the
time. She became veryinterested in science. So in a way,
you know, a child with anintact family might have a more narrow
upbringing than I think someof our children of single parents
(43:34):
because there are moreopportunities for outside contacts.
They might have differentparental figures in their lives.
It can be very challenging. Itcan be financially very challenging,
which it was in oursituations. It can be emotionally
very challenging. When I had amigraine, it was very difficult to
figure out what to do with mychild. But it is parenting. Single
(43:56):
parenting is parenting. Andparenting is hard and it's rewarding.
And you know, one advice thatI always give pregnant persons or
young parents is that do whatyou feel is best for you because
no matter what you do, yourkids will hold it against you. And
(44:16):
so I was a working parent andyou know, my daughter always wanted
to be adopted by a friend ofmine who was a stay at home mom and
she had a son who alwayswanted to be adopted by me because
I wasn't home hovering overhim. And I was the more fun parent.
So, you know, we have to dowhat it is. We have to put the oxygen
mask on first. I think as parents.
(44:38):
Very well said, Karin. I couldkeep talking to you for.
Hours, but I hope we haveanother opportunity.
This is where our timetogether comes to an end. If people
want to find out more aboutyour work, read your books. Where
should they go?
Thank you for asking. So I'mon LinkedIn under my name and also
on Medium, which is a bloggingplatform that is popular in the U.S.
(44:59):
and please reach out. I loveto meet people. I'd love to learn
from anyone. And if anybodyhas a topic that they'd like to write
about together, that would bean honor also. And thank you very
nice to all the team atLeaders for the work that you do
and the voices that you give.They're very, very important.
Thank you so much.
It's a pleasure.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much. And
(45:21):
I always love to hear from ourlisteners if you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Ferena Hefty and I'd be delighted
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
(45:42):
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment, podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chartingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the Podcast our fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same, then please head over to
(46:04):
leadersclass.org Fellowship inorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combinean ambitious career with young children
together with people who haveyou back. See you next weekend.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male middle class peopleleading our organizations. We must
change this together and Ihope that many of you listening right
now will progress to the mostsenior leadership roles that you
like where you can make thedecisions that make our world a better
(00:44):
place. Outside of the podcast.I am the CEO and founder of the Social
enterprise Leaders Plus. Weexist to help working parents progress
their careers to seniorleadership in a way that works for
you and for your families. Wehave free events and resources on
leadersplus.org where you candownload helpful toolkits such as
(01:05):
on returning from maternityleave, share parental leave, securing
a promotion, dealing withworkload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back. Together you'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family. And you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program. Be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with
the courage that they instillin each other to do what is right
for them without apologizingfor having a family or apologizing
(02:14):
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship
today I'm chatting to CarinIsabel-Knoop, parent, author and
in the day job ExecutiveDirector for Case Research and Writing
Group at Harvard BusinessSchool. She's the author of the book
(02:37):
Compassionate Management ofMental Health in the Modern Workplace.
We talk about loss, we talkabout control and what she has learned
from caring for her daughterand her elderly mother. I found the
conversation very thoughtprovoking and I hope that you get
something from it too. Thankyou for listening.
(02:58):
Absolutely, Verna, thank youso much for having me here in the
family of fellow workingparents. It's really a joy. So who
am I? I guess that's thehardest question that we're ever,
ever asked. I do tend toanswer with genetics. So I'm half
French, half German. I comefrom two very, very different parents.
My mother was a FrenchCatholic educated class who married
(03:22):
a German peasant pretty muchafter the war. They traveled a fair
bit. My father worked in theForeign service. So I grew up in
many different places,including Asia and Africa, and then
came to the US I work atHarvard Business School. I write
case studies, which arebasically stories about how people
make decisions, work with alot of leaders, and I manage a team
(03:44):
of 20, 20 people. So I'minterested in how people learn, how
people make sense of theirworld. I don't have many hobbies.
I basically just write allday. A little bit nerdy. I have a
daughter who's 25 years old,and I guess that is who I am. I like
to have people hoover. I liketo talk to people like you who are
(04:06):
from different disciplines. Iguess that's it.
Wonderful. And let me ask youa question that we ask all the podcast
guests. What is one thing thatyou used to believe about combining
a big career with childrenthat you've changed your mind on?
So what? I got feedbackrecently from my daughter. I asked
(04:28):
her, you know, what is it thatI need to apologize to you for, which
is a flip side of a practicein the Jewish faith around the high
holidays. And she said thatone of my greatest strength was that
I tended to see a lot ofdifferent sides of every story. So,
for example, she would comeback and she had been upset at work,
and she would say, you know,Verena pushed me off the monkey bars.
(04:52):
And I would say, well, youknow, maybe Verena was having a bad
day. Had you bothered Verenabefore? And she said, you know, in
those moments, I just wanted ahug. I didn't want a dissertation
about everything that couldhave possibly happened. And now she's
happy that she has this trait.But I think this trait has made it
so that I've always tended toquestion everything. So I'm not sure
(05:13):
that I had any particularpersistent notion. I did think that
the notion of having it all atthe same time didn't strike me as
logically possible. And Ihaven't changed my mind about that.
I don't think. Maybe I thoughtthat the workplace would be less
challenging than it is,because in some ways, we have so
(05:35):
many things going for us. Wehave much more neuroscience to understand
how we operate. Many of us aremore trained in conflict management
than we used to be. CertainlyI never had any such training when
I was young. But we aren't. Somaybe I've changed my mind about
predicting an easier workplacewhen it hasn't felt that way to people.
(05:56):
That's really interesting andI'm interested. You mentioned the
word predicting, and I'mreally curious. You obviously have
what many from the outsidewill say an absolutely lustrous career
as an executive director atHarvard Business School. You have
successfully kept a humanbeing alive in your daughter and
raised her. And you've alsolooked after your elderly mother.
(06:19):
And I'm interested, when youset out on your career and family
journey, what was your visionof how career and family life would
be like? And did that happenor did something different happen?
So I actually had absolutelyno vision. And I think I knew that
I would want to share my lifewith someone. I wasn't that clear
(06:41):
that I absolutely needed tohave children compared to some of
my other girlfriends. And thenironically, you know, I wound up
with a wonderful life partnerwho happens to be my daughter, but
not, you know, a life partner.Life partner. I got some very good
advice, actually, from afaculty member at Harvard Business
School when she found out thatI was getting married. And she told
(07:01):
me, she says, don't make thesame mistake I did, which is, I thought,
I have my career, I'll addmarriage, and then when I have children
and I'll add children. And shesays, it's a finite vessel. You'll
have to make choices aboutwhat you're going to do less of in
order to add something. And Ithink that high achieving individuals
(07:21):
maybe have this tendency tothink that they can take more and
more things on. So I didinternalize that at some point. And
I chose a career in academiafor an employer that is very, very
supportive of its employeeswith a fair, you know, bit of time
off, especially in the UScompared to what we have in Europe.
(07:43):
So I think I made a choice orinternalized that advice to some
extent. To another extent, Ididn't externalize at all. I don't
think I made enough time formy marriage. I didn't make enough
time for my husband. I wasbusy working. I, you know, needed
to pay the mortgage. So Ithink, like a lot of us, I made mistakes,
probably the exact opposite ofwhat I was trying to avoid.
(08:05):
So it sounds like you didn'tplan to be a solo parent when you
set out. And I'm reallyinterested in picking up on this
because many of our listenersare solo parents. And when you look
at the data in the uk, I'msure it will be similar in other
countries. Sadly, the careeroutcomes for women, especially women
(08:25):
who are solo parents, aresignificantly worse then. And I'm
not saying this to scareanybody, I'm just saying it to put
up the facts that careeroutcomes are worse than of women
who have a partner who helpsto look after children. Obviously,
I know there are lots ofdifferent arrangements and family
setups, including coparenting, but I'm just interested.
(08:46):
Did that ever cross your mindas a risk? And how did you still
get to the place where you arenow, despite the challenges? Sorry,
that's long and windy Question.
No, I think the question, youknow, reflects the depth of all of
these aspects. Then, you know,these situations sort of entails.
So maybe I'll just pick out acouple of things. So I definitely
(09:08):
did not plan to be a singleparent. I admire the people who go
on that road on their own. Ithink it's extremely difficult. I
did have the great luck ofhaving a fairly extensive community
of friends who then reallyhelped me. And then I took in medical
students, just have somebodyin the house and somebody who could
watch the baby while Ishowered. And at the time people
(09:31):
said, are you crazy? You'regoing to live with perfect strangers?
And I said, well, how else amI going to shower? She's 18 months
old, you know, so we're backto this notion of compromise, which
is I'll have to change the waythat I live to accommodate this new
situation. I think being asingle parent is a really, really
difficult situation becauseall of these changes in identity
(09:53):
are usually the places whereyou have, you know, these inflection
points that we also wroteabout in our book on management of
mental health in theworkplace, which is these inflection
points where you have a changeof identity are really, really tricky.
So I don't remember, you know,developing any form of depression
at the time, but honestly, Idon't remember anything of that first
(10:15):
year that I was alone. Youknow, I just tried to get up and
try to get my kid to schooland, you know, she came home at night
on the bus or I would get heror somebody else would get her and
then I would just survive. Soit's a very, very difficult time.
And I think when I've seenpeople in couples, you know, wanting
to separate, I've encouragedthem to really think long and hard.
(10:35):
Then if you separate, youmight wind up with the worst sides
of your ex partner. But youdon't have any of the good sides,
and, you know, that comes at agreat deal of loss. I think, you
know, employers or goodmanagers, if they do learn that somebody
is suddenly going through adivorce situation or one of these
inflection points, that'sreally the place where, as a manager
(10:58):
or as a fellow working parentor just as a fellow human being,
we can really reach out andsay, so how are you doing? The person
volunteers something. Andmaybe the person doesn't need you
to feel sorry for them. Maybethe person would welcome that. You
know, they could come and walkyour dog one day, you know, or I
have a free afternoon. Is itokay if I pick up your kid at work
(11:19):
for you? So I think I was veryblessed to have friends who were
willing to say, you know, tellme what you need. But then I was
also able to say what Ineeded, which I think is very difficult
for many of us because we'revery proud. And it's hard to ask
for help. It really is. Butthat would be one advice that I would
(11:41):
give single parents. There'sno shame in being different. There's
no shame in being divorced.There's no shame in being married.
But I think there's great riskin not being creative in how you
fill these support gaps.
I want to pick up on askingfor help, and it seems such an easy
thing to do.
Oh, gosh, no.
(12:03):
In theory, when you describeto someone this is what you need
to do, it sounds like astraightforward activity. What is
holding us back so much? Andespecially when we're high performers,
the listeners to this podcast,we're doing really well, want to
progress. Why is it sounbelievably difficult to ask for
help, and how can we get over it?
So I think some of it alsocomes back to this notion of seeming
(12:23):
in control. So a lot of ourprofessional life is, and even our
success in school, success insports is presenting in control.
Like, you know, I know how toperform. I have a grip over my emotions.
And maybe when we ask forhelp, it's an admission that we don't
have it all together or thatwe cannot do it all. So back to the
(12:45):
beginning of the conversationaround, there's only that much that
I can realistically do. Andthis is why I think, you know, this
overlap between parenting andmanagement is so fascinating. Why
it's been really wonderful towork with Leader plus and thinking
through, you know, what isthat we can learn from parenting
to improve our management isyou have a set of resources, and
then you have a set of needsand bridging that gap. I think sometimes
(13:08):
also we don't ask for helpbecause we don't like the help we
get, which is the same thingthat we see when we're managers.
Right. So this form ofmicromanaging only I can raise my
child is also a relatively newconstruct. You know, we used to outsource
raising children to thevillage. My kids spend a lot of time
at my neighbor's house andalternatively I would have their
(13:29):
kid over and that was okay.And did they parent in a different
way? Of course they did. But Ididn't feel a need to control. So
I think it's hard to ask forhelp when you feel that you want
to present a certain way. Andletting go of that need to present
as perfect, present as heroic,present as all knowing is really,
(13:49):
really hard when it's how we compete.
It is very true. And I thinkthere is something in that word compete
versus control. Because a lotof the listeners to this podcast,
they go against the grain.They have to, well, they want to
push themselves to go to arole where they can influence the
world more, where they havemore power and rightly so because
women and also men who takeout time for caring are really underrepresented
(14:13):
in those senior leadershiproles. So there is something about
you do have to to an extent,manage your brand, be seen to do
well in your career. But Iagree, I think in order to be happy
you need to let go and to beat ease with heaven. Things don't
go well and don't go to yourplan. And I'm just interested, I
(14:33):
mean Carney, when I every Ispeak to you come across as such
a personable person. But youmust be very like surely to work
at Harvard. You must be veryambitious and very, you know, you
must be performing very well.I've learned it from what when I
wrote with you, like yourstandards are super high in a good
way. So I'm just thinking howdo you combine that when you're that
type of personality and pleasetell me off if I'm. I've completely
(14:54):
mischaracterized you. How doyou combine being that type of high
performing personality withthe letting go of control which seems
so important for happiness?
So I'm a writer and so I'mattached to outcomes, maybe more
than process. And so in mywriting, in my collaborations, admitting
(15:16):
to a co author, I really haveno idea what this company is doing
is okay because if I don'tadmit it, the draft will not be good
at the end of the day. So Ibelieve that things always come out
somehow. But what matters tome is that it'd be a good case that
will support the faculty'sneeds in the classroom, that it'd
be a good piece that we writetogether that will help working parents.
(15:37):
And if for taking care of myparents and taking care of my daughter,
I think what I really wantedwas for them to be able to live the
life that they wanted, or inthe case of my parents, to have the
death that they would havewanted or that I thought they had
told me that they wanted. Andso how I got there and the extent
to which my ego mattered wasreally secondary, I think. Very nice.
(16:00):
And, you know, one thing that,now that I've used the word ego,
one thing that struck me agreat deal when my mother, who suffered
from Lewy Body Dementia, somefriends would come over to the house
and they'd be like, oh, hello,Ms. Charlette. You know, do you remember
who I am? And my mother wouldstare, and I would take my friends
aside, and I said, you know,it really doesn't matter who you
are in this human situation.Your role is to tell my mother she
(16:22):
looks great and to bring herthe cookies that she loves or blueberries.
That's all our role here. Andso I think this notion of what are
you really trying to achieve?So I'm very driven. I'm not sure
that I'm ambitious, but I'mvery driven. I'm driven about outcomes.
I'm not in control ofprocesses. I'll have to think about
(16:43):
that. It's an excellentquestion. Thank you for asking it.
You and I, we chatted beforewe came onto the podcast about this
increasing need in society tocontrol our kids. And I can really.
So I know this is notparenting podcast, but it just really
spoke to me because there is alot of pressure, and I'm definitely
falling into the trap oftrying to control how well my kids
(17:04):
are doing in the timestablesassessment, making sure that they
have team skills by forcingthem to do a team sports, which in
reality, they really don'twant to do. They just want to do
ballet, which I do not. I feelthat this. I want to support what
they're doing in theory.However, in practice, I am a little
bit resentful having to takeinto ballet. So I'm just thinking
(17:24):
how there is something. Andthere's additional work. This is
new work. This work ofcontrolling your kids hasn't been
there to the same extent 30years ago. So what is going on there?
Why are we suddenly so focusedon Controlling what happens to our
children's lives. Why can't wejust accept that what will be, will
be?
(17:44):
So first, thank you forsharing, honestly, sort of your emotions
and what resonated for me inyour answer was you're using very
managerial terms. Like, you'reliterally thinking, you know, what
are the life skills that mykids will need? What will be on their
resume? And so if you think ofwhat this could do to kids, could
(18:05):
be a little bit what we'redoing to employees, and maybe we're
literally burning out our kidsin a way, which is, you know, setting
expectations that are hard tomatch. So I think a couple of things
have really changed. You know,we're in different generations, which
is there was no social mediawhen I was a young parent. You know,
Facebook came along, 2006. Youknow, my daughter is seven years
(18:26):
old. So you could compare witheach other. Humans have always compared.
People have always competed.Women have always competed. Also,
I think, oh, you know, littleJudy is so much better than little
Bob and all of that, but whenyou add the sort of kerosene of social
media to it, it's a loteasier, right? And so in a way, you're
interviewing a dinosaur onthis topic, because if my daughter
(18:49):
didn't want to do ballet, Iwasn't constantly on Instagram watching
all the other kids being socute at ballet competitions. And
I was like, all right, shedoesn't want to do ballet. So I think
it's a lot harder now becauseyou're performing for a bigger audience.
As a parent, I think you usedto be performing for your own audience,
and your kid was alsoperforming for a much smaller audience.
(19:09):
Right? They didn't have tobrand themselves. They didn't have
to constantly refresh theirfeed. And even for kids on social
media, you know, control, in away is. And I'm not a psychiatrist,
you know, I come to all ofthese topics from the side of a business
risk, which is there's that ofhuman capital at work, you know,
in life, and how are we usingit, and what can we do to waste less
(19:30):
of it? So, you know, I know Ipartner with psychologists, psychiatrists,
but it's not my field. But Iwould say that, you know, hyper control
can be a form of maladaptivecoping mechanism, which is when we
feel a sense of loss, when wefeel a sense of, you know, the climate
is changing, you know, peopleare not civil anymore. Nobody believes
(19:51):
in science. You know, thegender roles are all difficult. The
news is all negative. So Ithink there is a general sort of
feeling, of loss. And when welose, you know, usually we do a couple
of things. You know, one is weunder control, which is, well, that's
the way it goes. You know, theclimate will burn out. Who cares?
(20:12):
You know, that's not alwaysadaptive. And then there's hypercontrol,
which is, I will be a vegan. Iwill criticize anybody who drives
an suv. Then there's escape,which is substance use, you know,
and overworking, I think,would probably be in that category.
We'd have to check with ourpsych friends if that would qualify.
Or over exercising or eatingdisorders, whatever it is that you
happen to control, which isyour body and your performance. And
(20:36):
then, you know, the final partis adaptive coping, which is, I can't
control everything, but thereare a few things that I can, and
I'll focus on those and do mybest to do those and understand that
loss and change is just partof life. And also part of life is
that you can't always get whatyou want. So not all of our girls
will become or, you know,prima ballerinas. Not all of our
(20:59):
boys will become, you know,the top dancers at the Bolshoi. So
that's very long winded offinding the right place. Back to
managerial principles, like,what are you really competing for?
You know, what is the ultimateprize here? Is it that your kid do
ballet, or is it that your kidhave life skills that enable the
child to deal with the factthat sometimes everything changes
(21:23):
all the time and you can'talways get what you want?
Definitely. I think it isdefinitely, for me personally, it's
definitely the life skillsone. And that's why I want them to
do team sports. And I've neverdone ballet, which is why I'm a little
bit negative towards it. But Iwill keep supporting my daughter's
passion, albeit reluctantly.You sound incredibly wise when you
(21:44):
talk about letting go of thatneed to control both at work and
your family. Have you alwayshad that attitude or how has it come
about?
So actually, I'll have tocredit maybe my daughter, although
that's more contemporary. Anexample, that's about 10 years ago,
but. And then maybe we will goback to my childhood. So when my
mother started to displaysigns of cognitive impairment, you
(22:07):
know, she would asked me whatI were eating for lunch. Salmon.
Five minutes later, the samequestion. And then I would get agitated.
And my daughter. One day, Iremember we were on holidays with
my mother, and, you know, thislittle child just pulls me aside
and she says, you know, mom,you loved me before I made sense.
Why can't you love your mothernow that she doesn't make sense anymore?
(22:29):
And whenever I think of that,it makes me tear up because it was
so profound, so wise and sotrue. And it was literally like a
light came on and I was like,my mother's suffering from a disease.
It's a terminal cognitivecondition. My option here is to take
care of her to the best of myabilities for all her needs, much
(22:53):
as I did when my daughter wassmall. So the wise one here, I think,
is my daughter Verena, notnecessarily me. Because that put
really a very, very sort offlashlight on this issue of what
am I really trying to do, towhat extent can I control it? So
I mentioned that my parentswere very different at the beginning
(23:14):
of our conversation. Myparents had a relatively passionate
but challenging union. Andthat dissolved. You know, I was very
happy playing in Africa, onthe beach. And all at once I was
in Paris in, you know, a backcourtyard, having to get up at school
and wear shoes. And it was allvery unfortunate. And I think that
early lesson of the separationof my parents taught me I should
(23:37):
be happy for every day that Ihave. Because tomorrow could be absolutely,
totally, suboptimallydifferent. And why I made that choice
somehow as a six year old is afunction also of genetics and context.
I could have made a verydifferent choice. I could have become
a very different child. Youknow, fear, anxiety serves a purpose,
(23:58):
but at some point it doesn't.And probably at some point there,
this little kid in thisbasement apartment was like, all
right, well, here I am. I havereally no choice. And that's. I have
the choice to sort of make themost of it. But it took me a while.
It took me a while. So maybe acombination of both of those.
(26:36):
Interesting. Thank you forsharing so openly. And it's fascinating
how these very challengingmoments are shaped from my perspective
is a very rare strength thatnot many people have. That ability
to focus and be driven, butalso to accept that not everything
is in your control.
(26:57):
I think you could also saythat, you know, maybe that is also
a form of maladaptive coping,which is you're over intellectualizing
situations. So I think that'sprobably my big weakness, which is,
you know, when my daughterjust wanted me to say, you know,
the person who pushed you offthe monkey bar is a terrible human
being. And, you know, I'llhave them punished and I love you
and you want spaghetti. Youknow, I over intellectualized the
(27:20):
situation. So it works. In away, my approach, Verena but it all
comes at a cost, like all ofour survival techniques. I think
it also makes me good at myjob, which is, you know, cases present,
there are different optionsfor all the scenarios. So I think
it's also just partly in mypersonality. I think the really tricky
(27:42):
thing with loss and controlwith children, and you said to what
extent do you encourage yourkids to do team sports and ballet?
Is that the role of the parentis to give children the opportunity
to develop skills that they doneed and I think push them to a certain
extent. But then you have tofigure out to what extent are you
pushing for your you or areyou pushing for them? And when they're
(28:06):
resisting or something isgoing on or even in academic performance,
you know, is this somethingthat is a temporary situation or
is it a reflection of anunderlying fear of, you know, being
in groups, of being present?So I think all of this is very tricky
as a parent to pick what youdo let go of and what you push for.
(28:29):
But I think the bottom line isthat it is an illusion that you are
going to control everything.And I'm saying that not as a sage
piece of advice, but as anactual realization, because I am
definitely not in the wisecamp. I am more in the control everything,
all the time camp. So I thinkthere is no way around it. You absolutely
have to let go of some ofthose things and give away power.
(28:52):
But there's never come back aperfect setup.
I would say no. And I thinkthe way to think about those, you
know, and there's a lot ofliterature around change management
in business schools. You know,one thing that always surprises me
about people's lack of Peopledon't like to change, but yet the
status quo that we inhabit isa product of change. Like, you know,
(29:15):
we would have met 200 yearsago, we would have been in very different
circumstances, and we wouldhave said, oh, isn't it great to
be here without sanitation?No. And, you know, our worlds today
are themselves a product ofchange. And then we don't want to
let go of the stability ofwhat we have. So it's always been
hard, but the world is hardtoo. You know, any news you open,
(29:39):
Everything feels out ofcontrol. Our leaders feel out of
control. So I think it'stotally. It's a very normal reaction,
I think, for us to want thebest for our children and to control
what we can, which is whatyou're doing.
Well, trying to. But I thinkthat's why it's good to recognize
that they're all people andindividuals as well, and not just
(29:59):
subjects of our control. Sothat makes me sound like a very bad
despot, which I may be, butyou know, that's okay.
No, but I think the samedynamic is true at work, which is,
you know, if you, if you treatyour employees like objects or pawns
to be moved, and if we'redoing the same thing to our children,
they know that we're managingthem and they know that we're performing
(30:21):
through them. And then thepressure on these kids to make sure
that they don't disappoint youmust be really, really challenging.
I mean, I think my parentsexpectations was I would, I was a
terrible tomboy, so then theyhoped that I would come home with
not another wound. And youknow, that was where they placed
the bar, probably.
Fair enough. And you're stillalive, which is good.
(30:42):
You're still alive. Yes.
One of the biggest areas thatyou can't control is that area of
getting pregnant and stayingpregnant. Now very often we can control
absolutely every aspect of ourlife or what we think we can. We
can order something off a bigonline platform easily. We don't
have to wait for a horse.Anyway, bad analogy. But there's
(31:05):
a lot that we can controlnowadays. But that is one thing that
we can't control. Andpregnancy loss is so unpredictable.
It is so difficult to be with.I was wondering what you've learned
from your writing and yourresearch about that transition that
pregnancy loss creates in state.
So last week was perinatalloss day in the US so I've miscarried
(31:31):
twice. There are about 2million miscarriages in the US every
year, about a millionvoluntary terminations of pregnancy.
So just open our hearts toeach other for just a second and
to the lives that and thatweren't before. We dive sort of in
the rational side of this. Youknow, it is a very particular kind
of loss. Many of the lossesthat we experience are. So we've
(31:55):
talked about sort of loss ofcontrol, which tends to be more diffuse.
But you know, when we lose aparent, it's like, oh, I'm so sorry.
For the most part, you know,these perinatal losses are invisible
or they're just to our veryclose ones. And then we expect to
go back to the office and justpretend that everything is okay.
And so in the US and I'vewritten a couple of articles also
(32:17):
about what employers can do tosupport grief and bereavement. There
are more and more employers inthe US that are providing pregnancy
loss time off. But there too,it tends to be one or two days, if
you're undergoing assistivereproductive technology, there may
be, you know, many more daysand many much more time that is needed,
(32:38):
much more counseling. So Ithink there's a lot here that employers
could be doing. I thinkaccepting that nature, where things
take a course, let's say forspontaneous abortions of miscarriages,
was very difficult for mealso. And I think reaching out to
each other, one of thewonderful things I think about social
(32:58):
media after criticizing it andabout us being all connected is that
it's a lot easier for us totalk about these things. So when
I miscarried, I didn't knowabout anybody else. But now when
we talk about it more, youunderstand that you are not alone.
You understand that it is notshameful. So it's one of these areas
where I think the more we talkabout, like you're enabling me to
(33:18):
vocalize emotions and reallyhave talked away, I think is a real
blessing because then we canbe there for each other and understand
that we are not alone. Onearea of reproduction that I find
really interesting, and Idon't know what the legislation is
in the US is around genomictesting. So in the US now there are
services that enable you to,you know, test an embryo, not just
(33:41):
for ivf, but in othercontexts. And so we're seeing this
same notion of trying to hypercontrol everything, making sure that
we produce a healthy babyextend to conception, which to me
is really problematic in a waybecause now I'm not just controlling
what sports my kid does, I'mliterally picking traits, performance
(34:03):
traits, you know, breedingthese hyper performance children.
But I think that's one way forparents to try to have the best possible
child because they themselvesfeel overwhelmed about what could
happen if the child were not.
That's very true. Just eventhe basic prenatal testing, in that
(34:24):
if you are of a certain ageand you're pregnant, you will automatically
be put into the pile of thisis the test you need to have. And
what you're saying reallyresonates and thank you for being
so open.
Another thing that I think hasreally changed, which is wonderful,
and Professor Ryan Buhl at HBSrecently wrote a case on Seven Starling,
which is a company thatprovides perinatal and postpartum
(34:47):
mental health care. And so onething that is not talked about, I
think enough, is that whenthere is a pregnancy interruption,
the whole host of identitychallenges, the whole host of just
hormonal changes, physicalchanges, depletion, tiredness, exhaustion,
unmet expectations areextremely complicated. And that is
(35:07):
you Know, ambiguous loss thatdoesn't really get acknowledged.
So one thing that I wouldencourage anyone who has or is experiencing
pregnancy loss is to use moreof these resources that are now available
in a way that they weren't. Mymother miscarried four times. You
know, she had no one. Today,women have a lot more support. And,
you know, we talked about thisin also when we wrote our new Mother's
(35:29):
Day proclamation, which isthis notion of extending parenting
through the entire arc of conception.
And you touched on whatemployees could do. Many of our listeners
are leaders, and even if theyhave had miscarriages, they might
still not know what is theright way to support someone. Is
(35:49):
there a simple right way tosupport someone who's going through
a miscarriage?
So I think there's alwayssimple, right ways to support anyone,
which is to try to get a senseof what the person might need. Because,
you know, it's. With griefalso, it's like that. You know, there
are some people for whom theloss of a parent who may have been
(36:10):
severely cognitively impairedor somebody who went through extensive
cancer treatments, it mightcome as a relief. And for others,
it might be really terrible.Like, when my mother passed away,
you know, I held her handevery night. It was a very primal,
tactile kind of relationships.And I literally had colleagues saying,
she's so much better off now.And I was like, how are you to judge
(36:34):
who's better off and who's.Whose life is worth living? So I
think in all of thesesituations of grief and support is
trying to signal as a leader,when something is happening in your
life that is difficult, youdon't need a lot of details. But
I think saying at teammeeting, today is an off day. I had
very difficult family newssignals, I think, to the team that
(36:55):
when it happens to them, theymight be able to come forward. I
think if you're willing toshare that you've had pregnancy loss
or just inquire with hr, hey,what are we doing? A friend of mine
had miscarriage. What wouldhappen if somebody in my team did?
So I think as leaders, we canalso reach out to HR and become more
(37:17):
present to what are actuallyour rules and what are the benefits
we're offering? Because manyof us have been in companies for
a long time, so you don't knowwhat is actually being offered. Same
thing with fertility benefits.And I think asking sometimes with
loss, saying less is betterthan more, which is, you know, how
can I support you? What is itthat I can do? What would help you
(37:37):
in this moment? But Silence isawkward. We fill in.
Absolutely. But I think sayingthat you are trying to say something
and that you're trying to bethere for them, even though you don't
know exactly what to do or howto be, I think that's already a really
important step. And everyone'sexperience of miscarriage is different.
(38:00):
So, like you say, we can'tassume what someone is going through.
And I think then you asked fora simple, effective method. I think
the just reminding you,reminding ourselves that however
compassionate and empatheticwe wish to be, we have no idea what
that person is going through.And this push towards empathy is.
I got you. Oh, I know what youfeel. Nobody can know what another
(38:24):
feels. And so I think justsilencing our own need to want to
fix and just opening aconversation for what might be helpful
to the other person. You know,actions speak louder than words,
which is, I can tell you amillion times, I'm so sorry your
mom died. Or I can say, hey,you know, if you have something that
(38:44):
needs proofing or doing atwork or submitting, my team will
do it for, you know, a coupleof hours today, and then you can
go home and rest. So thinkingabout actions, actions that help
the other, rather than wordsthat make you feel better, might
be a distinction that I could draw.
That's really helpful advice.Thank you. This also touches on something
(39:05):
else I'm interested in, whichis creating an environment where
people can ask for what they need.
Yeah.
Which is something you'vespoken about. And it's in those transition
moments where you'retransitioning from a pregnant person
to not being a pregnant personanymore, or you're in another intense
change of your life. Actually,that's when you're unsure of your
identity often, and you don'talways dare to ask for what you need.
(39:29):
What have you learned as aleader? How to make sure that you
create an environment sopeople ask for what they need.
So we talked a little bit, Ithink, about the modeling. I think
also about the asking. But Ithink the way you create an environment
is by doing two things as aleader. First is you sort of educate
yourself about what are theseinflection points. And so we've been
(39:50):
focused a little bit on thechallenging ones, maybe. I mean,
the parenting is a happy one,but also challenging one. Getting
married is a giant inflectionpoint. You know, people rush to the
wedding and it's all perfectand all the flowers are beautiful.
And then you wake up with thenext day and, you know, the socks
are in the bathroom, andyou're like, ugh. So the, you know,
promotions, I'm so excited I'mpromoted. Nobody talks to me anymore,
(40:14):
nobody wants to have lunchwith me anymore. You know, how do
I manage and manage this? Sothese inflection points come from
happy events, quote unquote,and sometimes from not so happy events.
So I think educating oneselfas a manager about this is important.
I think the other is trying tobecome self aware about your own
view of these moments and howthey might really bias you in your
(40:38):
response. So, you know,menopause is now having a moment
on the podcast all at once.We've discovered that, you know,
women have menopause. I had avery easy one and you know, so I'm
probably under indexing forpaying attention to my girlfriends
along these dimensions becausemy life experience is very, very
different. So I think managerscan be, can try to reflect on what
(41:01):
are the biases about thingsthat are hard and not hard that they're
bringing to the workplace andin which way might they not be paying
attention? You know, there arepopulations. For example, the men
in IVF treatment tend toreally be under supported because
a lot of the attention comesto the woman. And yet men experience
(41:22):
pregnancy loss also, ofcourse. But rarely do we ask, how
is your husband doing or how'syour partner doing reaching out to
them as a family. So thinkingabout what are the populations that
are underserved by our care asmanagers, I think is a useful, useful
discipline. And then the thirdsuper important, you know, do not
(41:43):
make these assumptions thatoh, poor thing, you got divorced
or.
Absolutely.
Yeah. Not easy.
I would like to come back tothe start of our conversation when
we started to talk about yourstory as a single or solo parent.
And I just wanted to ask you,as we're coming towards the end of
your book of this podcast,looking back at it, what have been
(42:03):
the really amazing thingsabout being a solo parent and combining
a big career?
Thank you for asking. So Ithink parenting is amazing. I think
it's a journey of discoveryand makes you a better human. They
ask all kinds of questions,questions. It's made me a better
manager, maybe a betterwriter, you know, maybe a better
popsicle sticker. I mean, it'sso. I think the act of parenting
(42:26):
is absolutely essential. 80billion people have done before us.
It felt natural and happy. Ithink one advantage of how it turned
out in our lives is that mydaughter had one pretty much one
anchor home and one anchor setof values. And I think it would have
been very challenging for meto be embroiled Every week in negotiations
(42:50):
around should she go to thedentist? Do we need braces? What
should we do about the personwho pushed her down the monkey bars?
So in a way, I had a highlevel of control, which is kind of
interesting for a person whoclaims she doesn't really like it.
But it did enable me tocontrol a lot of things in her upbringing
(43:11):
that I felt were important forher. I think because I was a single
parent, she was exposed tomaybe more of my friends, more disciplines.
I mentioned the medicalstudents who lived with us at the
time. She became veryinterested in science. So in a way,
you know, a child with anintact family might have a more narrow
upbringing than I think someof our children of single parents
(43:34):
because there are moreopportunities for outside contacts.
They might have differentparental figures in their lives.
It can be very challenging. Itcan be financially very challenging,
which it was in oursituations. It can be emotionally
very challenging. When I had amigraine, it was very difficult to
figure out what to do with mychild. But it is parenting. Single
(43:56):
parenting is parenting. Andparenting is hard and it's rewarding.
And you know, one advice thatI always give pregnant persons or
young parents is that do whatyou feel is best for you because
no matter what you do, yourkids will hold it against you. And
(44:16):
so I was a working parent andyou know, my daughter always wanted
to be adopted by a friend ofmine who was a stay at home mom and
she had a son who alwayswanted to be adopted by me because
I wasn't home hovering overhim. And I was the more fun parent.
So, you know, we have to dowhat it is. We have to put the oxygen
mask on first. I think as parents.
(44:38):
Very well said, Karin. I couldkeep talking to you for.
Hours, but I hope we haveanother opportunity.
This is where our timetogether comes to an end. If people
want to find out more aboutyour work, read your books. Where
should they go?
Thank you for asking. So I'mon LinkedIn under my name and also
on Medium, which is a bloggingplatform that is popular in the U.S.
(44:59):
and please reach out. I loveto meet people. I'd love to learn
from anyone. And if anybodyhas a topic that they'd like to write
about together, that would bean honor also. And thank you very
nice to all the team atLeaders for the work that you do
and the voices that you give.They're very, very important.
Thank you so much.
It's a pleasure.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much. And
(45:21):
I always love to hear from ourlisteners if you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Ferena Hefty and I'd be delighted
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
(45:42):
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment, podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
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