December 4, 2025 • 46 mins
In this reflective and deeply thoughtful episode of Big Careers, Small Children, Verena Hefti MBE speaks with Ori Carmel, Founder and CEO at Sowen. Drawing on his lived experience as a father of two, Ori shares how working parents can make better decisions about work and family, build guardrails that protect what matters most, and avoid the regret that often comes from overwhelm or overcommitment.
Ori reflects on the moment he missed his daughter’s first smile while travelling for work, the subtle choices that shape daily family life, and the simple frameworks he now uses to stay aligned with his values.
Together, they discuss:
✔️ How working parents can use simple decision-making tools to avoid stress, regret and overwhelm
✔️ Why flexibility often leads to blurred boundaries and how to put guardrails back in place
✔️ The “bandwidth check-in” system Ori and his wife use to share the load on tough days
✔️ How cultural expectations and ego subtly influence men’s decisions about work and family
What you'll learn in this episode:
🔹 How to make clearer day-to-day decisions about work and family
🔹 How to recognise early signs of overstretch before burnout takes hold
🔹 Why decision-making frameworks help parents stay aligned with their values
🔹 How to course-correct when work starts to take up more space than intended
Ori’s reflections are an invitation to slow down, examine your decision-making patterns, and build structures that support both your ambition and your family life.
Show Notes:
- Connect with Ori Carmel on LinkedIn.
- Learn more about Sowen here.
- Learn more about the Leaders Plus: Big Careers, Small Children podcast and explore additional resources at leadersplus.org.
- Follow Leaders Plus on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Bluesky.
- Connect with our CEO, Verena Hefti MBE on LinkedIn.
- Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
Our multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowships support parents committed to career growth while enjoying family life. Expertly designed to keep parents on the leadership path, our programme tackles gender pay gap issues and empowers parents to thrive. Learn more here: Leaders Plus Fellowship.
More BCSC episodes you might love:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male middle class peopleleading our organizations. We must
change this together and Ihope that many of you listening right
now will progress to the mostsenior leadership roles that you
like where you can make thedecisions that make our world a better
(00:44):
place. Outside of the podcast.I am the CEO and founder of the social
enterprise Leaders Plus. Weexist to help working parents progress
their careers to seniorleadership in a way that works for
you and for your families. Wehave free events and resources on
leadersplus.org where you candownload helpful toolkits such as
(01:05):
on returning from maternityleave, share parental leave, securing
a promotion, dealing withworkload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family. And you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program. Be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working short term hours, having
better flexible workingarrangement. They always impress
me so much with the couragethat they instill in each other to
do what is right for themwithout apologizing for having a
(02:12):
family or apologizing forwanting that top job. Details are
on leadersplus.org/Fellowshipin today's episode I'm chatting to
Ori Carmel about his approachto work life balance, about what
safeguards and guardrails heputs in place to ensure that he does
(02:38):
have this presence. And wealso discuss about how to live work
life balance in a culture thatisn't designed for it. And we chat
about all things in betweenLinked to Philosophy and Cambridge
Theory and so on. Enjoy theconversation. A very warm welcome.
Why don't we start with youIntroducing who you are, what you
(03:01):
do for work and who's in your family.
Who's in my family? Oh, can westart with that, the important stuff?
Sure.
All right. So it's myself andmy wife. Well, my wife and myself
actually. Her name is Fiona.She is born in Ireland and we met
actually on a trip inSoutheast Asia on a boat in Laos,
out of all places. And we livein Fairfield, Connecticut with our
(03:24):
two children, Sophie, who is10, and Owen, who is 7.
Lovely. And what do you do for work?
So I work for a smallconsulting firm called Sowen. Sowen
works with largephilanthropic, nonprofit, government
and corporate philanthropyorganizations and it helps them identify
and integrate better data andtechnology solutions processes into
(03:47):
what they do. So we basicallyhelp them what they are already trying
to do, but help them do itbetter, more effectively, faster
with better data technology solutions.
Makes sense a little bit. Idon't quite understand the detail,
but basically help them dowhat they were meant to do anyways,
but to do it really well andefficiently with better data.
(04:08):
Exactly.
Okay.
Exactly. And help them measurethe impact of what they do, which
is a hard part nowadays, butan important one.
Absolutely. That's the bitthat matters in the end. Can you
share a bit about your journeyas a working parent and how it shaped
your professional life?
Yeah, absolutely. Mybackground is kind of strange. It's
(04:28):
decision science and gametheory and analytics on kind of that's
one part of the brain and thenit's behavioral economics and marketing
on the other part of thebrain. So my career has taken me
across multiple sectors. Iworked for the government for a little
while and then got intocorporate, worked for large organizations,
most recently Twitter and thenAmerican Express where I had Adapt
(04:51):
products and then also had acouple of smaller organizations,
startups even in between, andreally started getting into social
impact work about seven oreight years ago. And I don't know
if it is related to absolutecertainty, but I think that there's
(05:12):
a high correlation between thefact that we had our first child
two years beforehand and hadour second child a year after that
drew me into working ordiverting my career away from corporate
and into something that I feeland think has a little bit more of
a intrinsic purpose to it andhopefully helps impact the lives
(05:37):
and well being of people andcommunities around me. So yeah, I'm
sure that there are otherfactors that went into kind of that
shift career change, but Iwould like to think that having children,
as cliche as it may sound, itwas a component of making that career
decision at the ripe old ageof 40.
I think you just can't wasteyour time on stuff that isn't impact.
(06:01):
When you. A lot of people tellme that they feel they have to spend
their time wisely, one,because their children will hear
about what they're doing atsome point, and two, if you spend
time away from the family, youwanted to count and you wanted to
make a difference. I think forme, that's also a reason why I do
what I do.
Yeah, I think that's right. Nogood. I. I recognize not everybody
(06:23):
thinks in that way and that'sfine. Different people value different
things in different points intheir lives and place emphasis on
the things that matter to themat that point in time. And it's okay
to change that over time. Iknow that for me, once we had children,
all the questions that I wasalready asking myself but was able
(06:47):
to kind of suppress or putaside, what am I doing? What am I
spending my time on? Why am Idoing this? How is this contributing?
All these types of things roseto the surface in a much more visceral
way once I face them at acompletely different point in my
life with different stakes.Right. That is not a judgment call
(07:08):
on anybody who hasn't ordoesn't or chooses a different path
or just finds themselves incompletely different circumstances.
That's just been myexperience. And for me, yeah, I think
having children and thinkingabout the things that I'm doing,
the time that I'm spending,what am I spending it on and what
am I leaving, hopefully oneday leave behind, was a component,
(07:28):
a serious component of makingthat decision you come.
Across, just chatting to youbefore coming on there as someone
who is, you know, a reallydeep thinker and tell me if I'm mischaracterizing
you there, but I think thechallenge with children, especially
when they're younger, is thatit is just hectic and messy and your
(07:48):
schedule falls apart. And I'minterested for you. Can you remember
the most challenging momentsof combining demanding, high stakes
work with equally demandingchildren and what you learned from
those moments?
I think that the challengingmoments happen every single day.
(08:10):
They don't have to bemonumental to count and they don't
have to be monumental toimpact you or help you shift or reflect
or make a decision. One momentthat comes to mind. I don't know
if it's a monumental moment,but Sophie are now 10 year old. Our
oldest was a couple of monthsand I was still working, I was still
(08:32):
at Twitter at the time and Iwas in a meeting down in Florida
somewhere, meeting A clientand I get a text from my wife and
it's a picture of her smiling.And I remember being very happy.
It was like the first timethat it was like an actual smile,
you know, when a baby, like acouple months old, like they make
faces and stuff, but that wasan actual smile. My wife was still
(08:56):
on maternity leave at thetime. I was like, crap, damn it.
I missed that. Like, I missedthat moment. And in reality, I could
have missed it either way,even if I weren't in Florida. Right.
I like, I was, I wasn't doinganything wrong. I went to the office
and, you know, my wife is onpaternity leave. Clearly the chances
that she will be there for thebaby's first smile is significantly
(09:19):
higher than mine. Because inthe US we barely get any paternity
leave, which is insane. Don'tget me started on paternity and maternity
leave so we can dive intothat. But it was a moment where I
was like, okay, how manymoments am I going to miss? I'm going
to miss some, but how do Imake sure that I don't miss as many
of the important ones as Ipossibly can? So that was like a
(09:43):
moment of I felt a littleguilty for a second, consciously
knowing that there wasn't muchthat I could do about it and it could
have happened, it would havehappened anyways, or a moment like
it would have happenedanyways. But it did make me think,
how many moments am I going tomiss? What can I do to miss as few
of them as possible? It alsomade me think about what moments
(10:03):
did my parents miss? Becausemy dad worked insane amounts of hours.
So it kind of also made mereflect on that, like, what do I
want to do differently? Idon't know if that answers your question
at all.
No, I think that's really selfprovoking because also the we're
chatting across continents onthis and I think that whole how do
(10:25):
you not miss stuff thatmatters is possibly harder in the
US because the expectationsjust in terms of hours of work seem
to be really high compared toEurope, even the uk, which has quite
long working hours compared tothe rest of the oecd. How did you
turn that thought of I do wantto be present into action, or did
(10:50):
you turn it into action in anyshape or form?
So first of all, just torecognize your comment about working
patterns. Absolutely. I mean,the working patterns here on this
side of the Atlantic arenonsensical, unhealthy. I mean, you
see it in everything,everywhere. You see rates of innovation,
you see mental Health in themodern workplace, you know, issues
(11:12):
with that. But we can touch onthat later if you want. How do you
manage that? First of all, youfail every day, right? It just happens,
right? I catch myself pickingup the phone when I shouldn't or
not paying attention when Ishould. So I think the first step
is to recognize that what it'sgoing to happen and recognize when
(11:34):
it's happening and coursecorrecting quickly. I try to get
myself into better habits. Sofor example, I used to spend a lot
of time working on theweekend. I really like working. I
like what I do. We solvereally interesting and complicated
problems at work. So I really,really like what I do. But I try
(11:56):
not to do that on the weekendnow. You know, I'm try to spend or
be very, very present inthings that aren't necessarily related
to work, that are around thekids and the family and friends and
those types of things orthings for myself, like reading or
watching a good movie orsomething like that. So I think catching
yourself when it happens andthen recognizing patterns like working
(12:18):
over the weekend. I try not towork late and I think the danger
for me. You said deep thinker.I don't know if I'm a deep thinker,
but I. I certainly tend totake myself way more seriously than
I actually should is torecognize that, you know, hey, things
are rarely as significant oras, you know, weighty as they seem
(12:39):
at that moment and nothing'sgonna happen if that email goes out
tomorrow and I can justdisconnect and go see the kids or
those types of things. Takework a little bit less seriously.
Despite the fact that we doserious work and that matters. Create
those balances. I thinkbalances are important and I think
(13:00):
that a lot of us nowadays feeloff kilter because our senses of
balance have been reallythrown off over the past five years.
That's true. I think there'ssomething about flexible working,
which again in the UK is avery. I think it's well embedded.
I would say not as well as Iwould like it to be, but it is definitely
(13:23):
there and it's here to stay.But that also means that I can bleed
into absolutely everything. SoI have been absolutely guilty of
checking my emails whilesupervising the children in the bath
and make sure nobody drowns.Nobody did drown, but wasn't the
most relaxing experience oranyone involved. I think to me there's
(13:45):
something about that feelingof I'm a high performer and it's
somehow connected with workingintensely. It doesn't have to be
long hours, but that intenseyou know, getting absorbed into something,
that's when I feel I'mexcelling. And I had to learn the
hard way of how to actuallyswitch off. You know, I'm sure everyone
(14:06):
listening is going to applaudyour whole, let's not work too much
on the weekend and all that.Sorry, this came out a bit more negative
than I meant to, buteverybody's going to agree with that,
that that's a nice thing.However, how have you endeavored
to change your own internalhabits, as you've called them?
I think you do need to thinkabout these things pragmatically
(14:28):
and prioritize. And eachfamily, each environment, each parental
unit, whatever you want tocall it, is going to have its own
reality. One thing that mywife and I have started applying
that has worked well for us iswe'll let each other know what percentage
(14:49):
do we have in our emotionalintellectual bandwidth on that day,
at that moment to deal withthe hectic nature of life? So, like,
we finish work, we get thekids, or, you know, Sophie comes
home from school, she walkshome, we get we ghetto, and he's
still too young to walk home,you know, and it's 5, 5:30, we're
(15:10):
all together, and we'll have acheck with each other, and I'll be
like, I had a really, reallyrough day. I'm at 20%. What are you
at? And she'll be like, allright, I'm at 60%. Then we know that
she's got a little bit morefuel in the tank than I do for that
evening. And that helps. Thathelps because we can balance each
(15:31):
other off. And some nightsshe'll be at 80 and I'll be at 20.
And some nights I'll be at 80and she'll be at 20. Or some nights
we'll both be at 60. Andthat's great. Little things like
that have really, reallyhelped us, I think whenever we manage
to put away the phone. Thephone is an incredibly intrusive
(15:51):
component in our lives. And itis a device that is literally designed
to detract you. Detract yourattention from everything else. So
I think putting away the phoneand letting it charge at least for
that time between five, whichI don't do every day, I fail at all
the time. But when I do that,when I manage to do that, that's
(16:12):
been really, really helpful.Yeah, those are two things that come
to mind that are a little bitmore tactical than, like, okay, we
won't work on the weekend. Wealso try to employ a very, very healthy
approach. To some reallynegative and destructive work patterns
that you mentioned earlierthat are specifically prevalent in
the U.S. so for example, wehave complete flexible workplace.
(16:34):
We have hours where we need tobe available. But overall nobody
tracks how many hours whenyou're on the phone. There are very
few things in our work that wedeem urgent. There are very few times
when there's a call or a textafter 5 o', clock, for example. And
we're really careful aboutthose things as a working culture.
(16:56):
So that creates guardrails,barriers that everybody respects
and can work around. And thathelps. That helps everybody kind
of maintain that balance orbarrier between work overtaking other
areas of your life that shouldstill be there.
Absolutely. And I thinkthere's something about the balance
(17:17):
between your work and thechildren. But then there's something
about time for yourself. Haveyou found anything that works or
is it just out of the windowand you're giving up on time for
yourself for the next 10 years?
It's not. That's somethingthat we're really, really again careful
and thoughtful and we plan forit, right. So my wife really loves
(17:40):
tennis. She was a tennisplayer. She has her tennis Friday
afternoons, Friday morningsometimes, sometimes Saturday morning.
So we plan for that. Right. Soif it's Saturday morning, I got the
kids from 8 o' clock in themorning when she goes off to tennis
until 11. And it's not like wehave shifts but you know, it's not
like shift parenting but weplan for it, right? So I know that
(18:02):
she's going to be gone forthree hours and that's great. That's
her time for herself. Sheknows that if I want to get a workout
in sometimes that's going tohappen at 7 o' clock in the evening.
And sometimes she's going toread stories to the kids by herself,
which we usually do togetheras a family. And that's okay. Like
we give each other grace andspace to do these types of things.
(18:23):
So I think, you know, as hornyas it sounds, being forgiving with
yourself is also a componenthere. You can't be perfect all the
time.
That is very true. Although Ihave to say the fact that a 10 year
old still wants to listen toyour stories. Oh yeah, it's definitely
in my book that goes to intowards perfect parenting territory.
(18:43):
Yeah, we do story time everynight and we're starting to see the
10 year old starting to readher own books. But she still sits
like and we do it in bed alltogether in our grownups bed. Like
my wife and I's bed and thekids both come in. And that's a nice
thing that we all still do. Irecognize that, you know, maybe she
(19:04):
won't want to do that with usat 13. So we're very much cherishing
those moments.
Enjoying it while it lasts. Ihave one at a similar age and she
will sometimes say, mommy?Yes. You're allowed to tell me a
story. I. Yes, I know how muchyou love it. I'll let you do it.
But actually, I just want toread Malora Towers on my own.
Can I ask you a question?Sure. So you highlighted something
(19:27):
really interesting, which is,you know, the different working patterns
and there's a geographicalcomponent to it. There's also a cultural
component to it. What dothings look like from your side of
the Atlantic? Like, what isthe perception of the North? I wouldn't
even call it American becauseCanada kind of gets bunched up into
(19:49):
this. What is your perceptionof the American working culture?
Positive, negative, andeverything in between.
I mean, obviously I'm just oneperson. My perception is that the
hours are very long, thatyou're expected to show that work
is a key priority at all timesand that things like flexibility
(20:14):
or part time are assigned oflack of commitment. I think that's
a bit the case. I mean, the UKis far from perfect. Those elements
are there as well. But justfrom my American friends, which is
not a huge sample. That's my impression.
Yeah.
Is that what you think? Doesthat tally with what you're thinking.
Or not so much massgeneralizations, but yeah, but on
(20:37):
the whole, yeah. I mean, UK issomewhere in the middle, but yeah,
I think the American sense ofmanifest destiny and all those concepts
that are very ingrained intoAmerican culture lend themselves
very easily to findingthemselves on overdrive. I had a
friend who presented a really,really interesting thought to me
(20:59):
on a project. We were actuallytalking about issues with the healthcare
industry of which, again,there are many differences and many
gaps between the approach thatEurope and the UK have to that of
the American system. And. Andshe touched on this topic of parenthood.
We were thinking about theconcepts of this podcast and she
(21:21):
noticed something interestingthat I haven't thought about from
early education. We teach ourkids here. I don't know if it's in
the UK because I didn't raisemy kids. I raised them a little bit
in the uk, but not wholly. Weteach our kids to value money over
health every time. And it wasreally interesting observation. She
(21:43):
asked me, how does my 7 yearold learn math? And I said, well,
I don't know, like Johnny has10 apples, he has to give five apples
to Judy and five apples toHannah. You know how many apples
is he left with? Like it's alltransactional. And then something
else. I went and looked at hisnotebook. They teach them through
(22:03):
money. They teach division.He's learning division right now.
So a dollar distributed to 10cents, you know how many 10 cents
increments or. I don't know ifit's symbolic, I'm sure it just caught
me at that moment, but it mademe think of how much our curriculum
and education is structured inovervaluing transactions, finance,
(22:25):
business, money versus health,well being, family, community.
Again, I'm not aneducationalist, but I think I could
absolutely concur with that.What your point just made me think
of as. Well, we work. About athird of our work here is with the
nhs. So with the uk, theparents who work as doctors, midwives,
(22:49):
nurses and so on. And I thinkthere's something interesting going
on about this whole selfsacrifice which is, you know, if
I'm looked after by awonderful midwife who is going above
and beyond, this is awonderful experience for me. It's,
in fact it's an experiencethat is going to likely make me feel
safer and probably also makeincreases chances of me and the baby
surviving. But that's, I thinkit just us valuing that as a society
(23:18):
and people being recruitedinto those professions which they
often don't do because of themoney, they do because they want
to make a difference. I thinkthat's the flip side of it. Through
that self sacrifice, that'swhere exploitation can happen and
long term damage to health.And I just wondered what. I know
you know the UK health systemreally well. You may or may not want
(23:38):
to publicly say what youropinion is on this, but I'm interested,
we can cut it out here. ButI'm interested in your, you know,
that tension between actuallyhaving a high impact career in health
and at the same time beinghere as a whole person for your family.
Yeah. Again, I think the UK iskind of in an in between place. If
(24:01):
I take, again, this is a massgeneralization, but if we take the
US and what you describedearlier in terms of the working hours
and the expectations and howpeople value themselves and how people
value others. Right. At oneextreme. And then you take, I don't
know, countries where, let'stake Spain for example. Right. The
working culture is different.The value of the role of the workplace
(24:26):
in your life is different.Right. Work is a means the end is
to have enough Money to spendtime with, have enough money to survive
and have a good life. Again,mass generalization, not for everybody,
but to spend time with family,spend time with community, spend
time on your interest, spendtime with your friends, you know,
have dinner at ungodly hoursin the evening. And the UK is kind
(24:49):
of in that in between phase,either unsure of which path to go
or finding a balance betweenthe two, which I think is great.
I think it can get incrediblychallenging and destructive here.
I think it can get really,really destructive here. I see a
(25:10):
lot of loneliness here. I seea lot of loneliness, you know, for
the kids themselves. I see alot of loneliness for the parents
in those moments ofrealization where they understand
that their kids are grown upand they're not as much of an active
part of their lives. I see areal moment of kind of reflection
(25:31):
and whatever you want to callit, realization of consequences that
kids leave the house for a lotof people, you know, when they leave
the house and all of a suddenit's quiet. And now all those opportunities
that you had to spend time aregone, right? They went off to college,
they went off whatever they'redoing. And that can be a very, very
(25:53):
challenging difficulty momentfor a lot of parents, I think. I
haven't gone through thatphase myself, but I. I see it with
some people around me, andit's. It's challenging, it's hard.
(29:20):
I think that's true. And. Andhindsight is always. It's an easy
way to look at it, but I'mquite encouraged as well.
I.
Look, I'm obviously able tointerview a lot of wonderful people
like yourself on this podcast,and some of them are towards the
end of their careers and thenlook back and they say they're usually
people who have spent a lot oftime with their children while holding
down very senior jobs. Butwhat is interesting is that actually
(29:42):
most of them say theirchildren didn't suffer from their
senior jobs, or they say theirrelationships didn't suffer and so
on, which I think is quiteencouraging. But, you know, you use
the word culture a lot, and Ithink that's interesting because
people are choosing, we areall choosing to try to live our lives
more or less by our values.But then if those values aren't once
in society, what is yourreflection about living a big career,
(30:07):
small children combination ina way that works for you, but which
may not be in line with themainstream rhetoric in society?
Look, I think everything is achoice. Almost everything is a choice.
And if you're smart andthoughtful and lucky and have A good
life partner or smart mentorsor friends or people around you who
(30:31):
will help you think aboutthese things when you're not thinking
about them and point them out,then you will come to a moment of
choice. And for some people,choosing to become a high power executive
at a corporate organizationwill mean that they will spend less
time with their children. I'mnot saying if that's a good choice
(30:52):
or a bad choice, but I'm justsaying that it's a choice, right?
There are times when thatchoice is really, really difficult.
But for me, I think theimportant thing was to create a balance.
I knew that I can't be in ajob, I can't do a job that I truly
a job, I can't, you know,invest that much time into something
(31:15):
that I am not deeply involved,emotionally and intellectually involved
in. At the same time,Ihavetochooseeverydaywhat'smoreimportant.Icanworksevenor eighthoursandIcanwork12hours,butifI
(32:06):
work12hours,I'mnotgoingtospendthethreeorfourhoursin theeveningbetweenfivetoeight,you
(32:28):
MostchoicetowardsthethingsthatIknowmattermoreinthebigpicture.That'sreallyhardtodoin the
moment,butput asmuchasmanyofthoseguardrailsandrecognizethosemomentswhentheycomeandslowmythinkingdownandthink,allright,like,isthisactuallythatimportant thatI'mgoing
(32:50):
tospendthreemorehoursonthis?OrshouldIpause,spendtimewithmychildren,maybecomebacktoitlater,maybecomebacktoittomorrow?Youknow,nomagicbulletsolution.There'snolike formula.ButItrytokeepitataround80%.Whenthechoicecomes,Itrytomakesurethat80%ofthetimeIPut
allthestructuresaroundmethatallowme to
(33:10):
pickthefamily,thekids,theself,youknow,youknow,thetimeformyself,thetimeformywife.Don'talwayssucceed.I failallthetime.
We all do.
Well, exactly. I don't know ifthat's. If that answers.
I think that's reallyfascinating. I'm interested in that
word structures.
Yeah.
Can you share a bit more aboutthose structures you mentioned? People,
(33:33):
processes that help you havethose guardrails in place?
Yeah. I mean, that's where mybackground kind of kicks in. Right.
Game theory and analytics and,you know, different people operate
on different things and havedifferent methodologies or ways in
which they are motivated. Forme, it's really important to think
(33:54):
about these thingsschematically because that's how
I know that I will makedecisions that I can stick to for
a long period of time and thatmake both emotional and intellectual
sense to me. Right. My wife,who as I said, is better than me
at everything, including thesethings, she's intuitively very, very
(34:16):
good at recognizing when tofind those balances. I need more
structure. I need mechanismsaround me. So for example, I put
the kids like extracurricularactivities on my calendar. So I know
that I need to finish a callat 4:45 because at 5:15 I gotta take
oh into Code Ninjas where he'slearning how to code, you know, those
(34:39):
types of things. I structureit into my behavioral patterns. And
I find that that helps me aton because it allows me to think
of these things in a way thatfits into how I structure my day,
you know, so every single kidsactivity is on my work and personal
(35:02):
calendars.
Even if you don't take them.
Yeah. So even if I can't go,if there's like a parent teacher
conference and it happens tobe at the middle of the day and I'm
like, hey, Fiona, you got thisone? She says, yeah, I got this one.
It's still on my calendar. SoI see it. So I'm conscious of the
fact that I'm missing it.There may be a perfectly good reason.
And again, there's a choice.It may be the right choice to make
(35:24):
at that moment in time, butthat choice has a downside. Better
remember that I missed that.And if I miss two in a row, then
it starts to become a pattern.And if I miss three in a row, then
it's a problem. Right. So tokeep those things in mind and to
have them is really importantfor me. It works for me because that's
(35:44):
the way that my brain works itworks on like patterns, structures,
schematics, and that helps me.
Yeah, and I couldn't agreemore. So I'm the same. Not quite
every. I think my diary looksa bit messier than yours by the sound
of it. And I do forget whichday, which lesson is up. Luckily
my partner is very organized.So you said you're a game expert,
(36:06):
do you? I'm imagining gametheory. I have no idea about game
theory, but imagining you getrewards for doing certain things
and you make it all quite fun.And I just, if that understanding
is right, how do you do thatwith the whole balancing big career,
young children.
Right. So in principle yourunderstanding is right. Game theory
basically tries to understandhow people and organizations behave.
(36:31):
What are their motivations,pros, cons for those behaviors and
how can you influence. So it'snot necessarily just about games
meaning like Monopoly orthings like that. It's about how
do people, structures,organizations operate in different
dynamics. So how does thatweigh in? I think it weighs in, in
(36:54):
understanding the pros andcons of every situation. That's where
it comes in. If I am missing aparent teacher conference, I'm not
going to hear firsthand fromthe teacher, from Sophie's teacher,
how she's doing. I'm going tohear from Sophie and I'm going to
hear from my wife who youknow, might be there. But I'm not
going to get a chance to askthe questions that I want to ask.
(37:15):
I'm not going to get a chanceto get a first hand account. I'm
not going to get a chance tointeract with our teacher, which
I think is super, superimportant, those types of things.
So understanding the pros andcons of every situation and what
those mean in the short term,medium term and long term for me,
for my family, for in thiscase my daughter, for us as a family
(37:38):
unit really helps me kind ofget smarter and make better decisions
in the moment, especially whenit's under high pressure, right?
When it's like, oh my God, Ireally shouldn't miss this meeting
and oh my God, I reallyshouldn't miss this PTA meeting.
All right, now things arereal, right? Like because decisions
(38:01):
in day to day are alreadyhard, decisions under pressure or
with high stakes aresignificantly harder now it becomes
a real battle. And I want tomake sure that 80% of the time I
land on a place or a decisionthat I will be comfortable with or
as comfortable as I can be aday later and a week later and a
(38:22):
month later and a year laterthat I won't Reflect on it with regret.
There's a lot of wisdom there.
I don't know if it's wisdom. Ithink so.
I think so.
Trial and error, I'll tell you that.
Well, wisdom isn't the same asdoing it, but I think it's a very
powerful idea, for sure. We'recoming towards the end of our podcast.
Is there anything that youwere desperate to say that you haven't
(38:44):
had a chance to. To say it toour listeners? No worries if not.
But just wanted to give youthe space.
A couple of things. Yeah. Imean, I think we kind of touched
on it here and there, butthere are systematic components that
work against us, and I thinkit's really, really important to
recognize those and howpowerful those are. Right. We talked
about, like, the healthcaresystem, for example, in the U.S.
(39:06):
and the fact that, you know,in the U.S. women are back to work,
sometimes as short as, youknow, eight weeks, if not even shorter.
Like, that's insane. You know,all the phones. Right. The prevalence
of technology in our lives andhow destructive it can become if
you don't guardrail againstit, you know, and how awful it is.
(39:28):
So with all these things thatwe talk about, there are individual
choices, there are things thatyou can do, but it's also super important
to recognize that there aretons of pressures that are operating
on you from outside that areincredibly powerful. Right. Incredibly
power. Socioeconomicdisparities. Right. Parents who have
(39:49):
to work two jobs. Like, I'mincredibly lucky. I have a job where
I can shut off at 5:30. Theremay be evenings when I choose not
to for one reason. And thenthere's an entire third of the population
that doesn't even have thatchoice or where that choice is incredibly
more difficult. Right. Becausethey got to work two jobs just to
(40:11):
put some food on the table. SoI also wanted to recognize that I
come from a very privilegedposition towards this conversation.
I don't come from a privilegedbackground, but I am in a privileged
position. And there are entirecohorts of the population that don't
have those privileges. Andthen the third thing that I wanted
to kind of recognize in ourconversation is that as. As bad as
(40:34):
men have it, women have itsignificantly worse. And I see that
with my wife, who has anincredible career, is incredibly
bright. And I see that, like,for example, when she did take maternity
leave, and lucky for us, shewas working at a, you know, an incredible
organization that gave what inthe US Is a long time, six months.
(40:55):
It's not a year like you getin some, some European Countries.
But yeah. Did it, you know,ding her back in her career? Absolutely.
She came back into theworkforce and maybe there was a promotion
that she would have gotten anddidn't, or maybe there's a thing
that she would have learnedand, and didn't. With women, there's
also the expectation of beingholding up the household. Right.
(41:17):
So, you know, when I go to anevent at Sophie's school, 80% of
the attendees are women or thewives or the mothers in the family.
Right. And the men sometimesshow up and most of the time don't.
Right.
So I wanted to recognize thosethree things that act as additional
(41:38):
barriers and pressuresdisproportionately on some specific
individuals and populations.And I, white, middle aged, you know,
middle class, upper middleclass, male, have a whole slew of
challenges that I don't haveto deal with or I have to think about
(41:58):
less. So I think that'sreally, really important to highlight
as well. The challenge is muchmore difficult for some cohorts of
the population and it'sreally, really important that we
recognize that, that we bringthat to the surface and that we create
systematic solutions thatfloat all boats that help all of
(42:19):
these situations or as many ofthem as possible. And they aren't
the lean in type of solutions.Like I don't buy the lean in thing.
Like it's always a compromise.There's some something's always going
to give. It's very easy tolean in when you have a staff of
30 people. But at the sametime, the systematic challenges around
(42:40):
us need to be addressed andneed to be resolved because they
don't hit the rest of thepopulation proportionately.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.And we've done a lot of work with
employers on actuallyunderstanding what is going on and
how is that system set up. Andthen on top of that, of course, the
whole legislative environment,like you say, with the length of
(43:00):
maternity, but also paternityand share parental leave. If people
want to find out more aboutyou, about your thinking, your work,
where should they head, theycan reach out.
And I'm always happy, I'malways, always interested in talking
to smart. My parameters aresmart and kind.
You know, people who areBritish are quite, they will not
(43:22):
allow themselves always to saythat they are smart, as you know.
Well, I mean, live in London,so you know. Yeah, but yeah, well,
I'm very pleased that youspoke to me then without knowing.
No, but I, I, the kind part isreally, really important to me. So,
you know, feel free to reachout to me. You can find me on LinkedIn.
You know my email address isis out there. It's oricarmel@sowen.Co.
(43:45):
You can reach out to us ifyou're interested in hearing more
about our work. We do a ton ofwork in these areas around work life
balance, around mental healthin the modern workplace. We spend
a ton of time working withorganizations around understanding
the health and well being oftheir employees, understanding the
health and well being of theirteams, developing strategies and
approaches to improve thehealth and well being of their teams.
(44:08):
Because there's a directcorrelation between happy driven,
satisfied individuals andsuccessive businesses in every aspect,
right? Private sector, publicsector, government, philanthropy,
academia. The highestcorrelator to successful working
teams is are people happy andlike working with each other by far.
(44:28):
So we work a lot in thoseareas. If any of those are areas
that interest you or if youhave any better solutions to any
of the challenges or questionsthat you asked me here Brenna and
have suggestions on what I cando better, I'd love to hear about
it. So yeah, always feel freeto reach out. I'd love to have a
conversation.
Thank you so much Ori. It wasan absolute pleasure chatting to
you. Likewise, I reallyappreciate you listening. Thank you
(44:52):
so much and I always love tohear from our listeners. If you want
to connect with me onLinkedIn, just go to FerenaHefti
and I'd be delighted to hearyour feedback and your suggestions
or just have you say hi.Likewise, if you do feel passionately
about gender equality and youwant to support a female led podcast,
(45:12):
then please do leave a reviewand share it with a friend. Just
because at the momentpodcasting is still a very very male
dominated environment. Most ofthe top charging podcasts are led
by men. I really love all thepeople who've joined from the podcast
our fellowship program and ifyou want to do the same then please
(45:35):
head over toleadersclass.org/Fellowship in order
to get access to a communityof support to help you combine ambitious
career with young childrentogether with people who have your
back. See you next week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male middle class peopleleading our organizations. We must
change this together and Ihope that many of you listening right
now will progress to the mostsenior leadership roles that you
like where you can make thedecisions that make our world a better
(00:44):
place. Outside of the podcast.I am the CEO and founder of the social
enterprise Leaders Plus. Weexist to help working parents progress
their careers to seniorleadership in a way that works for
you and for your families. Wehave free events and resources on
leadersplus.org where you candownload helpful toolkits such as
(01:05):
on returning from maternityleave, share parental leave, securing
a promotion, dealing withworkload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family. And you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program. Be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working short term hours, having
better flexible workingarrangement. They always impress
me so much with the couragethat they instill in each other to
do what is right for themwithout apologizing for having a
(02:12):
family or apologizing forwanting that top job. Details are
on leadersplus.org/Fellowshipin today's episode I'm chatting to
Ori Carmel about his approachto work life balance, about what
safeguards and guardrails heputs in place to ensure that he does
(02:38):
have this presence. And wealso discuss about how to live work
life balance in a culture thatisn't designed for it. And we chat
about all things in betweenLinked to Philosophy and Cambridge
Theory and so on. Enjoy theconversation. A very warm welcome.
Why don't we start with youIntroducing who you are, what you
(03:01):
do for work and who's in your family.
Who's in my family? Oh, can westart with that, the important stuff?
Sure.
All right. So it's myself andmy wife. Well, my wife and myself
actually. Her name is Fiona.She is born in Ireland and we met
actually on a trip inSoutheast Asia on a boat in Laos,
out of all places. And we livein Fairfield, Connecticut with our
(03:24):
two children, Sophie, who is10, and Owen, who is 7.
Lovely. And what do you do for work?
So I work for a smallconsulting firm called Sowen. Sowen
works with largephilanthropic, nonprofit, government
and corporate philanthropyorganizations and it helps them identify
and integrate better data andtechnology solutions processes into
(03:47):
what they do. So we basicallyhelp them what they are already trying
to do, but help them do itbetter, more effectively, faster
with better data technology solutions.
Makes sense a little bit. Idon't quite understand the detail,
but basically help them dowhat they were meant to do anyways,
but to do it really well andefficiently with better data.
(04:08):
Exactly.
Okay.
Exactly. And help them measurethe impact of what they do, which
is a hard part nowadays, butan important one.
Absolutely. That's the bitthat matters in the end. Can you
share a bit about your journeyas a working parent and how it shaped
your professional life?
Yeah, absolutely. Mybackground is kind of strange. It's
(04:28):
decision science and gametheory and analytics on kind of that's
one part of the brain and thenit's behavioral economics and marketing
on the other part of thebrain. So my career has taken me
across multiple sectors. Iworked for the government for a little
while and then got intocorporate, worked for large organizations,
most recently Twitter and thenAmerican Express where I had Adapt
(04:51):
products and then also had acouple of smaller organizations,
startups even in between, andreally started getting into social
impact work about seven oreight years ago. And I don't know
if it is related to absolutecertainty, but I think that there's
(05:12):
a high correlation between thefact that we had our first child
two years beforehand and hadour second child a year after that
drew me into working ordiverting my career away from corporate
and into something that I feeland think has a little bit more of
a intrinsic purpose to it andhopefully helps impact the lives
(05:37):
and well being of people andcommunities around me. So yeah, I'm
sure that there are otherfactors that went into kind of that
shift career change, but Iwould like to think that having children,
as cliche as it may sound, itwas a component of making that career
decision at the ripe old ageof 40.
I think you just can't wasteyour time on stuff that isn't impact.
(06:01):
When you. A lot of people tellme that they feel they have to spend
their time wisely, one,because their children will hear
about what they're doing atsome point, and two, if you spend
time away from the family, youwanted to count and you wanted to
make a difference. I think forme, that's also a reason why I do
what I do.
Yeah, I think that's right. Nogood. I. I recognize not everybody
(06:23):
thinks in that way and that'sfine. Different people value different
things in different points intheir lives and place emphasis on
the things that matter to themat that point in time. And it's okay
to change that over time. Iknow that for me, once we had children,
all the questions that I wasalready asking myself but was able
(06:47):
to kind of suppress or putaside, what am I doing? What am I
spending my time on? Why am Idoing this? How is this contributing?
All these types of things roseto the surface in a much more visceral
way once I face them at acompletely different point in my
life with different stakes.Right. That is not a judgment call
(07:08):
on anybody who hasn't ordoesn't or chooses a different path
or just finds themselves incompletely different circumstances.
That's just been myexperience. And for me, yeah, I think
having children and thinkingabout the things that I'm doing,
the time that I'm spending,what am I spending it on and what
am I leaving, hopefully oneday leave behind, was a component,
(07:28):
a serious component of makingthat decision you come.
Across, just chatting to youbefore coming on there as someone
who is, you know, a reallydeep thinker and tell me if I'm mischaracterizing
you there, but I think thechallenge with children, especially
when they're younger, is thatit is just hectic and messy and your
(07:48):
schedule falls apart. And I'minterested for you. Can you remember
the most challenging momentsof combining demanding, high stakes
work with equally demandingchildren and what you learned from
those moments?
I think that the challengingmoments happen every single day.
(08:10):
They don't have to bemonumental to count and they don't
have to be monumental toimpact you or help you shift or reflect
or make a decision. One momentthat comes to mind. I don't know
if it's a monumental moment,but Sophie are now 10 year old. Our
oldest was a couple of monthsand I was still working, I was still
(08:32):
at Twitter at the time and Iwas in a meeting down in Florida
somewhere, meeting A clientand I get a text from my wife and
it's a picture of her smiling.And I remember being very happy.
It was like the first timethat it was like an actual smile,
you know, when a baby, like acouple months old, like they make
faces and stuff, but that wasan actual smile. My wife was still
(08:56):
on maternity leave at thetime. I was like, crap, damn it.
I missed that. Like, I missedthat moment. And in reality, I could
have missed it either way,even if I weren't in Florida. Right.
I like, I was, I wasn't doinganything wrong. I went to the office
and, you know, my wife is onpaternity leave. Clearly the chances
that she will be there for thebaby's first smile is significantly
(09:19):
higher than mine. Because inthe US we barely get any paternity
leave, which is insane. Don'tget me started on paternity and maternity
leave so we can dive intothat. But it was a moment where I
was like, okay, how manymoments am I going to miss? I'm going
to miss some, but how do Imake sure that I don't miss as many
of the important ones as Ipossibly can? So that was like a
(09:43):
moment of I felt a littleguilty for a second, consciously
knowing that there wasn't muchthat I could do about it and it could
have happened, it would havehappened anyways, or a moment like
it would have happenedanyways. But it did make me think,
how many moments am I going tomiss? What can I do to miss as few
of them as possible? It alsomade me think about what moments
(10:03):
did my parents miss? Becausemy dad worked insane amounts of hours.
So it kind of also made mereflect on that, like, what do I
want to do differently? Idon't know if that answers your question
at all.
No, I think that's really selfprovoking because also the we're
chatting across continents onthis and I think that whole how do
(10:25):
you not miss stuff thatmatters is possibly harder in the
US because the expectationsjust in terms of hours of work seem
to be really high compared toEurope, even the uk, which has quite
long working hours compared tothe rest of the oecd. How did you
turn that thought of I do wantto be present into action, or did
(10:50):
you turn it into action in anyshape or form?
So first of all, just torecognize your comment about working
patterns. Absolutely. I mean,the working patterns here on this
side of the Atlantic arenonsensical, unhealthy. I mean, you
see it in everything,everywhere. You see rates of innovation,
you see mental Health in themodern workplace, you know, issues
(11:12):
with that. But we can touch onthat later if you want. How do you
manage that? First of all, youfail every day, right? It just happens,
right? I catch myself pickingup the phone when I shouldn't or
not paying attention when Ishould. So I think the first step
is to recognize that what it'sgoing to happen and recognize when
(11:34):
it's happening and coursecorrecting quickly. I try to get
myself into better habits. Sofor example, I used to spend a lot
of time working on theweekend. I really like working. I
like what I do. We solvereally interesting and complicated
problems at work. So I really,really like what I do. But I try
(11:56):
not to do that on the weekendnow. You know, I'm try to spend or
be very, very present inthings that aren't necessarily related
to work, that are around thekids and the family and friends and
those types of things orthings for myself, like reading or
watching a good movie orsomething like that. So I think catching
yourself when it happens andthen recognizing patterns like working
(12:18):
over the weekend. I try not towork late and I think the danger
for me. You said deep thinker.I don't know if I'm a deep thinker,
but I. I certainly tend totake myself way more seriously than
I actually should is torecognize that, you know, hey, things
are rarely as significant oras, you know, weighty as they seem
(12:39):
at that moment and nothing'sgonna happen if that email goes out
tomorrow and I can justdisconnect and go see the kids or
those types of things. Takework a little bit less seriously.
Despite the fact that we doserious work and that matters. Create
those balances. I thinkbalances are important and I think
(13:00):
that a lot of us nowadays feeloff kilter because our senses of
balance have been reallythrown off over the past five years.
That's true. I think there'ssomething about flexible working,
which again in the UK is avery. I think it's well embedded.
I would say not as well as Iwould like it to be, but it is definitely
(13:23):
there and it's here to stay.But that also means that I can bleed
into absolutely everything. SoI have been absolutely guilty of
checking my emails whilesupervising the children in the bath
and make sure nobody drowns.Nobody did drown, but wasn't the
most relaxing experience oranyone involved. I think to me there's
(13:45):
something about that feelingof I'm a high performer and it's
somehow connected with workingintensely. It doesn't have to be
long hours, but that intenseyou know, getting absorbed into something,
that's when I feel I'mexcelling. And I had to learn the
hard way of how to actuallyswitch off. You know, I'm sure everyone
(14:06):
listening is going to applaudyour whole, let's not work too much
on the weekend and all that.Sorry, this came out a bit more negative
than I meant to, buteverybody's going to agree with that,
that that's a nice thing.However, how have you endeavored
to change your own internalhabits, as you've called them?
I think you do need to thinkabout these things pragmatically
(14:28):
and prioritize. And eachfamily, each environment, each parental
unit, whatever you want tocall it, is going to have its own
reality. One thing that mywife and I have started applying
that has worked well for us iswe'll let each other know what percentage
(14:49):
do we have in our emotionalintellectual bandwidth on that day,
at that moment to deal withthe hectic nature of life? So, like,
we finish work, we get thekids, or, you know, Sophie comes
home from school, she walkshome, we get we ghetto, and he's
still too young to walk home,you know, and it's 5, 5:30, we're
(15:10):
all together, and we'll have acheck with each other, and I'll be
like, I had a really, reallyrough day. I'm at 20%. What are you
at? And she'll be like, allright, I'm at 60%. Then we know that
she's got a little bit morefuel in the tank than I do for that
evening. And that helps. Thathelps because we can balance each
(15:31):
other off. And some nightsshe'll be at 80 and I'll be at 20.
And some nights I'll be at 80and she'll be at 20. Or some nights
we'll both be at 60. Andthat's great. Little things like
that have really, reallyhelped us, I think whenever we manage
to put away the phone. Thephone is an incredibly intrusive
(15:51):
component in our lives. And itis a device that is literally designed
to detract you. Detract yourattention from everything else. So
I think putting away the phoneand letting it charge at least for
that time between five, whichI don't do every day, I fail at all
the time. But when I do that,when I manage to do that, that's
(16:12):
been really, really helpful.Yeah, those are two things that come
to mind that are a little bitmore tactical than, like, okay, we
won't work on the weekend. Wealso try to employ a very, very healthy
approach. To some reallynegative and destructive work patterns
that you mentioned earlierthat are specifically prevalent in
the U.S. so for example, wehave complete flexible workplace.
(16:34):
We have hours where we need tobe available. But overall nobody
tracks how many hours whenyou're on the phone. There are very
few things in our work that wedeem urgent. There are very few times
when there's a call or a textafter 5 o', clock, for example. And
we're really careful aboutthose things as a working culture.
(16:56):
So that creates guardrails,barriers that everybody respects
and can work around. And thathelps. That helps everybody kind
of maintain that balance orbarrier between work overtaking other
areas of your life that shouldstill be there.
Absolutely. And I thinkthere's something about the balance
(17:17):
between your work and thechildren. But then there's something
about time for yourself. Haveyou found anything that works or
is it just out of the windowand you're giving up on time for
yourself for the next 10 years?
It's not. That's somethingthat we're really, really again careful
and thoughtful and we plan forit, right. So my wife really loves
(17:40):
tennis. She was a tennisplayer. She has her tennis Friday
afternoons, Friday morningsometimes, sometimes Saturday morning.
So we plan for that. Right. Soif it's Saturday morning, I got the
kids from 8 o' clock in themorning when she goes off to tennis
until 11. And it's not like wehave shifts but you know, it's not
like shift parenting but weplan for it, right? So I know that
(18:02):
she's going to be gone forthree hours and that's great. That's
her time for herself. Sheknows that if I want to get a workout
in sometimes that's going tohappen at 7 o' clock in the evening.
And sometimes she's going toread stories to the kids by herself,
which we usually do togetheras a family. And that's okay. Like
we give each other grace andspace to do these types of things.
(18:23):
So I think, you know, as hornyas it sounds, being forgiving with
yourself is also a componenthere. You can't be perfect all the
time.
That is very true. Although Ihave to say the fact that a 10 year
old still wants to listen toyour stories. Oh yeah, it's definitely
in my book that goes to intowards perfect parenting territory.
(18:43):
Yeah, we do story time everynight and we're starting to see the
10 year old starting to readher own books. But she still sits
like and we do it in bed alltogether in our grownups bed. Like
my wife and I's bed and thekids both come in. And that's a nice
thing that we all still do. Irecognize that, you know, maybe she
(19:04):
won't want to do that with usat 13. So we're very much cherishing
those moments.
Enjoying it while it lasts. Ihave one at a similar age and she
will sometimes say, mommy?Yes. You're allowed to tell me a
story. I. Yes, I know how muchyou love it. I'll let you do it.
But actually, I just want toread Malora Towers on my own.
Can I ask you a question?Sure. So you highlighted something
(19:27):
really interesting, which is,you know, the different working patterns
and there's a geographicalcomponent to it. There's also a cultural
component to it. What dothings look like from your side of
the Atlantic? Like, what isthe perception of the North? I wouldn't
even call it American becauseCanada kind of gets bunched up into
(19:49):
this. What is your perceptionof the American working culture?
Positive, negative, andeverything in between.
I mean, obviously I'm just oneperson. My perception is that the
hours are very long, thatyou're expected to show that work
is a key priority at all timesand that things like flexibility
(20:14):
or part time are assigned oflack of commitment. I think that's
a bit the case. I mean, the UKis far from perfect. Those elements
are there as well. But justfrom my American friends, which is
not a huge sample. That's my impression.
Yeah.
Is that what you think? Doesthat tally with what you're thinking.
Or not so much massgeneralizations, but yeah, but on
(20:37):
the whole, yeah. I mean, UK issomewhere in the middle, but yeah,
I think the American sense ofmanifest destiny and all those concepts
that are very ingrained intoAmerican culture lend themselves
very easily to findingthemselves on overdrive. I had a
friend who presented a really,really interesting thought to me
(20:59):
on a project. We were actuallytalking about issues with the healthcare
industry of which, again,there are many differences and many
gaps between the approach thatEurope and the UK have to that of
the American system. And. Andshe touched on this topic of parenthood.
We were thinking about theconcepts of this podcast and she
(21:21):
noticed something interestingthat I haven't thought about from
early education. We teach ourkids here. I don't know if it's in
the UK because I didn't raisemy kids. I raised them a little bit
in the uk, but not wholly. Weteach our kids to value money over
health every time. And it wasreally interesting observation. She
(21:43):
asked me, how does my 7 yearold learn math? And I said, well,
I don't know, like Johnny has10 apples, he has to give five apples
to Judy and five apples toHannah. You know how many apples
is he left with? Like it's alltransactional. And then something
else. I went and looked at hisnotebook. They teach them through
(22:03):
money. They teach division.He's learning division right now.
So a dollar distributed to 10cents, you know how many 10 cents
increments or. I don't know ifit's symbolic, I'm sure it just caught
me at that moment, but it mademe think of how much our curriculum
and education is structured inovervaluing transactions, finance,
(22:25):
business, money versus health,well being, family, community.
Again, I'm not aneducationalist, but I think I could
absolutely concur with that.What your point just made me think
of as. Well, we work. About athird of our work here is with the
nhs. So with the uk, theparents who work as doctors, midwives,
(22:49):
nurses and so on. And I thinkthere's something interesting going
on about this whole selfsacrifice which is, you know, if
I'm looked after by awonderful midwife who is going above
and beyond, this is awonderful experience for me. It's,
in fact it's an experiencethat is going to likely make me feel
safer and probably also makeincreases chances of me and the baby
surviving. But that's, I thinkit just us valuing that as a society
(23:18):
and people being recruitedinto those professions which they
often don't do because of themoney, they do because they want
to make a difference. I thinkthat's the flip side of it. Through
that self sacrifice, that'swhere exploitation can happen and
long term damage to health.And I just wondered what. I know
you know the UK health systemreally well. You may or may not want
(23:38):
to publicly say what youropinion is on this, but I'm interested,
we can cut it out here. ButI'm interested in your, you know,
that tension between actuallyhaving a high impact career in health
and at the same time beinghere as a whole person for your family.
Yeah. Again, I think the UK iskind of in an in between place. If
(24:01):
I take, again, this is a massgeneralization, but if we take the
US and what you describedearlier in terms of the working hours
and the expectations and howpeople value themselves and how people
value others. Right. At oneextreme. And then you take, I don't
know, countries where, let'stake Spain for example. Right. The
working culture is different.The value of the role of the workplace
(24:26):
in your life is different.Right. Work is a means the end is
to have enough Money to spendtime with, have enough money to survive
and have a good life. Again,mass generalization, not for everybody,
but to spend time with family,spend time with community, spend
time on your interest, spendtime with your friends, you know,
have dinner at ungodly hoursin the evening. And the UK is kind
(24:49):
of in that in between phase,either unsure of which path to go
or finding a balance betweenthe two, which I think is great.
I think it can get incrediblychallenging and destructive here.
I think it can get really,really destructive here. I see a
(25:10):
lot of loneliness here. I seea lot of loneliness, you know, for
the kids themselves. I see alot of loneliness for the parents
in those moments ofrealization where they understand
that their kids are grown upand they're not as much of an active
part of their lives. I see areal moment of kind of reflection
(25:31):
and whatever you want to callit, realization of consequences that
kids leave the house for a lotof people, you know, when they leave
the house and all of a suddenit's quiet. And now all those opportunities
that you had to spend time aregone, right? They went off to college,
they went off whatever they'redoing. And that can be a very, very
(25:53):
challenging difficulty momentfor a lot of parents, I think. I
haven't gone through thatphase myself, but I. I see it with
some people around me, andit's. It's challenging, it's hard.
(29:20):
I think that's true. And. Andhindsight is always. It's an easy
way to look at it, but I'mquite encouraged as well.
I.
Look, I'm obviously able tointerview a lot of wonderful people
like yourself on this podcast,and some of them are towards the
end of their careers and thenlook back and they say they're usually
people who have spent a lot oftime with their children while holding
down very senior jobs. Butwhat is interesting is that actually
(29:42):
most of them say theirchildren didn't suffer from their
senior jobs, or they say theirrelationships didn't suffer and so
on, which I think is quiteencouraging. But, you know, you use
the word culture a lot, and Ithink that's interesting because
people are choosing, we areall choosing to try to live our lives
more or less by our values.But then if those values aren't once
in society, what is yourreflection about living a big career,
(30:07):
small children combination ina way that works for you, but which
may not be in line with themainstream rhetoric in society?
Look, I think everything is achoice. Almost everything is a choice.
And if you're smart andthoughtful and lucky and have A good
life partner or smart mentorsor friends or people around you who
(30:31):
will help you think aboutthese things when you're not thinking
about them and point them out,then you will come to a moment of
choice. And for some people,choosing to become a high power executive
at a corporate organizationwill mean that they will spend less
time with their children. I'mnot saying if that's a good choice
(30:52):
or a bad choice, but I'm justsaying that it's a choice, right?
There are times when thatchoice is really, really difficult.
But for me, I think theimportant thing was to create a balance.
I knew that I can't be in ajob, I can't do a job that I truly
a job, I can't, you know,invest that much time into something
(31:15):
that I am not deeply involved,emotionally and intellectually involved
in. At the same time,Ihavetochooseeverydaywhat'smoreimportant.Icanworksevenor eighthoursandIcanwork12hours,butifI
(32:06):
work12hours,I'mnotgoingtospendthethreeorfourhoursin theeveningbetweenfivetoeight,you
(32:28):
MostchoicetowardsthethingsthatIknowmattermoreinthebigpicture.That'sreallyhardtodoin the
moment,butput asmuchasmanyofthoseguardrailsandrecognizethosemomentswhentheycomeandslowmythinkingdownandthink,allright,like,isthisactuallythatimportant thatI'mgoing
(32:50):
tospendthreemorehoursonthis?OrshouldIpause,spendtimewithmychildren,maybecomebacktoitlater,maybecomebacktoittomorrow?Youknow,nomagicbulletsolution.There'snolike formula.ButItrytokeepitataround80%.Whenthechoicecomes,Itrytomakesurethat80%ofthetimeIPut
allthestructuresaroundmethatallowme to
(33:10):
pickthefamily,thekids,theself,youknow,youknow,thetimeformyself,thetimeformywife.Don'talwayssucceed.I failallthetime.
We all do.
Well, exactly. I don't know ifthat's. If that answers.
I think that's reallyfascinating. I'm interested in that
word structures.
Yeah.
Can you share a bit more aboutthose structures you mentioned? People,
(33:33):
processes that help you havethose guardrails in place?
Yeah. I mean, that's where mybackground kind of kicks in. Right.
Game theory and analytics and,you know, different people operate
on different things and havedifferent methodologies or ways in
which they are motivated. Forme, it's really important to think
(33:54):
about these thingsschematically because that's how
I know that I will makedecisions that I can stick to for
a long period of time and thatmake both emotional and intellectual
sense to me. Right. My wife,who as I said, is better than me
at everything, including thesethings, she's intuitively very, very
(34:16):
good at recognizing when tofind those balances. I need more
structure. I need mechanismsaround me. So for example, I put
the kids like extracurricularactivities on my calendar. So I know
that I need to finish a callat 4:45 because at 5:15 I gotta take
oh into Code Ninjas where he'slearning how to code, you know, those
(34:39):
types of things. I structureit into my behavioral patterns. And
I find that that helps me aton because it allows me to think
of these things in a way thatfits into how I structure my day,
you know, so every single kidsactivity is on my work and personal
(35:02):
calendars.
Even if you don't take them.
Yeah. So even if I can't go,if there's like a parent teacher
conference and it happens tobe at the middle of the day and I'm
like, hey, Fiona, you got thisone? She says, yeah, I got this one.
It's still on my calendar. SoI see it. So I'm conscious of the
fact that I'm missing it.There may be a perfectly good reason.
And again, there's a choice.It may be the right choice to make
(35:24):
at that moment in time, butthat choice has a downside. Better
remember that I missed that.And if I miss two in a row, then
it starts to become a pattern.And if I miss three in a row, then
it's a problem. Right. So tokeep those things in mind and to
have them is really importantfor me. It works for me because that's
(35:44):
the way that my brain works itworks on like patterns, structures,
schematics, and that helps me.
Yeah, and I couldn't agreemore. So I'm the same. Not quite
every. I think my diary looksa bit messier than yours by the sound
of it. And I do forget whichday, which lesson is up. Luckily
my partner is very organized.So you said you're a game expert,
(36:06):
do you? I'm imagining gametheory. I have no idea about game
theory, but imagining you getrewards for doing certain things
and you make it all quite fun.And I just, if that understanding
is right, how do you do thatwith the whole balancing big career,
young children.
Right. So in principle yourunderstanding is right. Game theory
basically tries to understandhow people and organizations behave.
(36:31):
What are their motivations,pros, cons for those behaviors and
how can you influence. So it'snot necessarily just about games
meaning like Monopoly orthings like that. It's about how
do people, structures,organizations operate in different
dynamics. So how does thatweigh in? I think it weighs in, in
(36:54):
understanding the pros andcons of every situation. That's where
it comes in. If I am missing aparent teacher conference, I'm not
going to hear firsthand fromthe teacher, from Sophie's teacher,
how she's doing. I'm going tohear from Sophie and I'm going to
hear from my wife who youknow, might be there. But I'm not
going to get a chance to askthe questions that I want to ask.
(37:15):
I'm not going to get a chanceto get a first hand account. I'm
not going to get a chance tointeract with our teacher, which
I think is super, superimportant, those types of things.
So understanding the pros andcons of every situation and what
those mean in the short term,medium term and long term for me,
for my family, for in thiscase my daughter, for us as a family
(37:38):
unit really helps me kind ofget smarter and make better decisions
in the moment, especially whenit's under high pressure, right?
When it's like, oh my God, Ireally shouldn't miss this meeting
and oh my God, I reallyshouldn't miss this PTA meeting.
All right, now things arereal, right? Like because decisions
(38:01):
in day to day are alreadyhard, decisions under pressure or
with high stakes aresignificantly harder now it becomes
a real battle. And I want tomake sure that 80% of the time I
land on a place or a decisionthat I will be comfortable with or
as comfortable as I can be aday later and a week later and a
(38:22):
month later and a year laterthat I won't Reflect on it with regret.
There's a lot of wisdom there.
I don't know if it's wisdom. Ithink so.
I think so.
Trial and error, I'll tell you that.
Well, wisdom isn't the same asdoing it, but I think it's a very
powerful idea, for sure. We'recoming towards the end of our podcast.
Is there anything that youwere desperate to say that you haven't
(38:44):
had a chance to. To say it toour listeners? No worries if not.
But just wanted to give youthe space.
A couple of things. Yeah. Imean, I think we kind of touched
on it here and there, butthere are systematic components that
work against us, and I thinkit's really, really important to
recognize those and howpowerful those are. Right. We talked
about, like, the healthcaresystem, for example, in the U.S.
(39:06):
and the fact that, you know,in the U.S. women are back to work,
sometimes as short as, youknow, eight weeks, if not even shorter.
Like, that's insane. You know,all the phones. Right. The prevalence
of technology in our lives andhow destructive it can become if
you don't guardrail againstit, you know, and how awful it is.
(39:28):
So with all these things thatwe talk about, there are individual
choices, there are things thatyou can do, but it's also super important
to recognize that there aretons of pressures that are operating
on you from outside that areincredibly powerful. Right. Incredibly
power. Socioeconomicdisparities. Right. Parents who have
(39:49):
to work two jobs. Like, I'mincredibly lucky. I have a job where
I can shut off at 5:30. Theremay be evenings when I choose not
to for one reason. And thenthere's an entire third of the population
that doesn't even have thatchoice or where that choice is incredibly
more difficult. Right. Becausethey got to work two jobs just to
(40:11):
put some food on the table. SoI also wanted to recognize that I
come from a very privilegedposition towards this conversation.
I don't come from a privilegedbackground, but I am in a privileged
position. And there are entirecohorts of the population that don't
have those privileges. Andthen the third thing that I wanted
to kind of recognize in ourconversation is that as. As bad as
(40:34):
men have it, women have itsignificantly worse. And I see that
with my wife, who has anincredible career, is incredibly
bright. And I see that, like,for example, when she did take maternity
leave, and lucky for us, shewas working at a, you know, an incredible
organization that gave what inthe US Is a long time, six months.
(40:55):
It's not a year like you getin some, some European Countries.
But yeah. Did it, you know,ding her back in her career? Absolutely.
She came back into theworkforce and maybe there was a promotion
that she would have gotten anddidn't, or maybe there's a thing
that she would have learnedand, and didn't. With women, there's
also the expectation of beingholding up the household. Right.
(41:17):
So, you know, when I go to anevent at Sophie's school, 80% of
the attendees are women or thewives or the mothers in the family.
Right. And the men sometimesshow up and most of the time don't.
Right.
So I wanted to recognize thosethree things that act as additional
(41:38):
barriers and pressuresdisproportionately on some specific
individuals and populations.And I, white, middle aged, you know,
middle class, upper middleclass, male, have a whole slew of
challenges that I don't haveto deal with or I have to think about
(41:58):
less. So I think that'sreally, really important to highlight
as well. The challenge is muchmore difficult for some cohorts of
the population and it'sreally, really important that we
recognize that, that we bringthat to the surface and that we create
systematic solutions thatfloat all boats that help all of
(42:19):
these situations or as many ofthem as possible. And they aren't
the lean in type of solutions.Like I don't buy the lean in thing.
Like it's always a compromise.There's some something's always going
to give. It's very easy tolean in when you have a staff of
30 people. But at the sametime, the systematic challenges around
(42:40):
us need to be addressed andneed to be resolved because they
don't hit the rest of thepopulation proportionately.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.And we've done a lot of work with
employers on actuallyunderstanding what is going on and
how is that system set up. Andthen on top of that, of course, the
whole legislative environment,like you say, with the length of
(43:00):
maternity, but also paternityand share parental leave. If people
want to find out more aboutyou, about your thinking, your work,
where should they head, theycan reach out.
And I'm always happy, I'malways, always interested in talking
to smart. My parameters aresmart and kind.
You know, people who areBritish are quite, they will not
(43:22):
allow themselves always to saythat they are smart, as you know.
Well, I mean, live in London,so you know. Yeah, but yeah, well,
I'm very pleased that youspoke to me then without knowing.
No, but I, I, the kind part isreally, really important to me. So,
you know, feel free to reachout to me. You can find me on LinkedIn.
You know my email address isis out there. It's oricarmel@sowen.Co.
(43:45):
You can reach out to us ifyou're interested in hearing more
about our work. We do a ton ofwork in these areas around work life
balance, around mental healthin the modern workplace. We spend
a ton of time working withorganizations around understanding
the health and well being oftheir employees, understanding the
health and well being of theirteams, developing strategies and
approaches to improve thehealth and well being of their teams.
(44:08):
Because there's a directcorrelation between happy driven,
satisfied individuals andsuccessive businesses in every aspect,
right? Private sector, publicsector, government, philanthropy,
academia. The highestcorrelator to successful working
teams is are people happy andlike working with each other by far.
(44:28):
So we work a lot in thoseareas. If any of those are areas
that interest you or if youhave any better solutions to any
of the challenges or questionsthat you asked me here Brenna and
have suggestions on what I cando better, I'd love to hear about
it. So yeah, always feel freeto reach out. I'd love to have a
conversation.
Thank you so much Ori. It wasan absolute pleasure chatting to
you. Likewise, I reallyappreciate you listening. Thank you
(44:52):
so much and I always love tohear from our listeners. If you want
to connect with me onLinkedIn, just go to FerenaHefti
and I'd be delighted to hearyour feedback and your suggestions
or just have you say hi.Likewise, if you do feel passionately
about gender equality and youwant to support a female led podcast,
(45:12):
then please do leave a reviewand share it with a friend. Just
because at the momentpodcasting is still a very very male
dominated environment. Most ofthe top charging podcasts are led
by men. I really love all thepeople who've joined from the podcast
our fellowship program and ifyou want to do the same then please
(45:35):
head over toleadersclass.org/Fellowship in order
to get access to a communityof support to help you combine ambitious
career with young childrentogether with people who have your
back. See you next week.
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