In this inspiring episode of the Big Careers, Small Children podcast, Verena Hefti MBE speaks with Rebecca Brosnan, CEO and Founder of The Halo Planner, and Non-Executive Director across several listed and non-profit organisations.
Rebecca shares her remarkable journey from high-pressure executive roles in finance to building a flexible, international portfolio career, all while raising two young children without sacrificing ambition or family life.
She talks openly about the messy reality of balancing senior leadership and motherhood, the importance of intentional planning, and why it’s possible (and necessary) to redefine success on your own terms.
Together, they explore:
✔️ Why building a successful board career with young children is possible — but messy.
✔️ The practical systems and mindsets that helped Rebecca balance senior leadership and parenthood.
✔️ How to plan your way to a thriving career without sacrificing presence at home.
✔️ Why NGO boards can be just as rewarding and impactful as corporate boards.
✔️ How to set boundaries without guilt and stay intentional with your time.
✔️ The role of support networks, planning tools, and saying no (without fear).
✔️ Practical steps for anyone wanting to start a portfolio career.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- How to create a portfolio career that aligns with your family priorities.
- The power of meticulous long-term and short-term planning for working parents.
- Why messy does not mean unsuccessful — and how to embrace it.
- How to balance ambition, purpose, and parenting without guilt.
- Why saying no is a leadership skill (and how to do it without burning bridges).
Show Notes:
- Connect with Rebecca Brosnan on LinkedIn
- Learn more about the Halo Planner at thehaloplanner.com
- Follow Halo Planner on Instagram: @thehaloplanner
- Learn more about the Leaders Plus: Big Careers, Small Children podcast and explore additional resources at leadersplus.org.
- Follow Leaders Plus on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Bluesky.
- Connect with our CEO, Verena Hefti MBE on LinkedIn.
- Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
Our multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowships support parents committed to career growth while enjoying family life. Expertly designed to keep parents on the leadership path, our programme tackles gender pay gap issues and empowers parents to thrive. Learn more here: Leaders Plus Fellowship.
More BCSC episodes you might love:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male, middle classpeople leading our organizations.
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast. I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family. And you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program, be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with
the courage that they instillin each other to do what is right
for them without apologizingfor having a family or apologizing
(02:14):
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship.
Today I'm chatting to RebeccaBrosnan about how she set up her
portfolio. Career which isinternational, includes boards roles
in listed organizations. Shealso shares how she sets boundaries
(02:38):
and what her approach is toplanning. She's an absolute advocate
for for planning your careerand clearly it seems to have worked
really well for her given thelevel of seniority she's achieved.
I hope you get something fromthe conversation. Let me know what
you think.
Hi, I'm Rebecca Brosnan. I'Moriginally from the U.S. but I've
(03:00):
lived in Hong Kong for nearly21 years. And in terms of work, I'm
the CEO and founder of theHalo Planner, which creates tools
to help people achieve theirgoals. In addition, I serve on the
board of Taylor MaritimeInvestments, which is a London listed
company. And I'm the IFCnominated director of the Citibank,
(03:21):
which is a leading bank inBangladesh. And I also serve on two
nonprofit boards. One isMother's Choice, which takes care
of children without families,and the other is Generations Christian
Education, which is theoperator of primary schools and kindergartens
here in Hong Kong. And in myfamily I have a wonderful husband
and two children, an eightyear old son and a six year old daughter.
(03:44):
Lovely. I have that as well.Eight and six and a three year old.
Such a fun age.
Absolutely. And can you sharewith our listeners one thing you
used to subscribe to aboutcombining a big career with young
children that you don'tbelieve in anymore?
So I have always been prettyambitious with my career. I had very
(04:06):
lofty dreams and so I think Ialways wanted to have children, but
I don't think I appreciatedhow much I would love them, how overwhelming
that feeling was that I wantedto be with them. And when my first
child was born, I even criedwhen I was outside a different room
than him. And I was notprepared for how much time I wanted
(04:28):
to spend with them. So I thinkI thought I'd be happy to travel,
I'd be happy to work latenights and I I'd still be fine just
seeing the kids on the offnight or on the weekends. And it
really was not the case. Sothat's something I had to adjust
to and, and make careerdecisions around.
I mean, it's interestingbecause in Bay you've started your
own thing, but you're alsoworking quite traditional. I mean
(04:51):
the finance sector in Asia,I'm not imagining it might it's the
most forward thinking futureof work type environment. How have
you structured your workinglife then to fit with that desire
to be present with your children?
Well, when I had my children Ileft executive roles in finance.
(05:14):
So I was at the time I wasworking at the Hong Kong Stock Exchange.
I was running corporatestrategy and mergers and acquisitions
and I then ran the commoditiestrading business and product development
and I worked a lot of hours.And so when I decided to have children,
I left and went to be the COOof an ngo, which was still a lot
(05:37):
of work, a lot ofresponsibility had to be organized.
But because it was Hong Kongbased, there was no travel and an
emergency was a realemergency. So if a baby had been
abandoned, I got called in thenight. But other than that we tried
to keep pretty standard hours.So I was able to structure around
that. And then since then I'vedecided to do a portfolio career
(06:02):
of non executive roles. Soserving on boards of companies which
meet in a kind of physicalsession once a quarter and then maybe
monthly calls. There's a lotof reading, there's a lot of work,
it's very high impact but it'sa lot of flexibility. So if I want
to, if I have eight hours ofboard reading to do, I'm doing it
(06:24):
at home and I can still get mychildren off the bus. So I've picked
roles that allow me to planahead so I'll know a year in advance
the dates of those boardmeetings. And that give me the flexibility
to physically be where mychildren are when I need to be. It's
not perfect. Things do comeup. I think if something, if there's
(06:45):
an emergency and you're on theboard, it's a real emergency. So
sometimes it's not perfect,but I, I feel like the balance for
me is better because I, I getto see my kids in the afternoons
every day.
Interesting. And it'sinteresting because a board career
just for the listeners who arenot, haven't thought of this before,
but as a board member you areessentially part of a group of people
(07:11):
who are the boss of the CEO.And so I think we really need to
underline that that is verysenior role and especially being
on the board listed company,that's not, it's not a, it's not
an opt out of the workforce.On the contrary, it's a real, it's
a real opt in. And what I alsolike is that those are roles where
(07:31):
you make decisions about moneyand resource. And I think that's
important because not enoughwomen and people from ethnic minorities
have that power to decide onresource even if they have a name
in, you know, if leadership isin their job title. And just to dig
(07:53):
a bit deeper into this. What,what, how did you, how do you, did
you get onto a board? Likewhat, what's the, what's the process?
Yeah, I know it's like it'sprobably too long for a massive,
for, you know, but I'm justinterested, like how did that happen?
Yeah, so I think the first isthat I was really lucky in my executive
(08:17):
career. I did a lot of mergersand acquisitions so I bought companies
or I looked at lots ofdifferent companies to buy or I would,
yeah, basically looking atthat and looking at combinations
of businesses. So it was a, along term, you know, strategic focus.
So where is this businessgoing to be in one year, three years,
(08:38):
five years, 10 years? Andtechnically, according to the best
corporate governance practicestrategies owned by the board. So
I spent a lot of time in mycorporate jobs actually working with
the board, particularly at theHong Kong Stock Exchange, and I led
the acquisition of the LondonMetal Exchange, which is a largest
(09:00):
base metals trading forum. Andso I got to be very close with the
board members and also got tosee how they made their decisions,
what types of questions theyasked. So I think my executive career,
I had a lot of exposure toboards and board members and how
they think and what they caredabout and, you know, how to prepare
for boards, et cetera. I thinkthe second thing that happened is
(09:22):
I've always been reallyengaged in my community. So I was
asked, as you say, I have afinancial background which is always
in the in need for schools andNGOs because a lot of people who
choose to go into those rolesmaybe have more of a social work
background or et cetera. So Iwas asked to join the board of my
(09:44):
children's school and chairthe finance committee. And so I did
that while I was still workingas an executive. And so I think it
kind of set me up to be boardready for a corporate role. And then
the other thing I would sayjust add for your listeners, because
I know women on boards is ahot topic, is it just takes a lot
(10:07):
longer than an executive role.So it's not like there's an opening
and they interview and thenyou get the job and you hear within
a few months it's, I mean,both of my boards took 18 months
from the first discussionuntil finally joining because boards
really plan long term on whattype of skill sets they need and
what type of candidates theywant. And for a variety of reasons,
(10:31):
it's a very in depth process,both with the board and with headhunters.
So.
Absolutely. So real call toinvest in that network. It doesn't
hurt to have finance skills orto brush up on, on those. And I think
in the uk, for our UKlisteners, there's also an organization
called Women on Boards whooffer very practical support with
(10:51):
board CVS that look slightlydifferent. Did you always think it
was going to be possible tohave such a senior career with children
or did you think, well,actually I probably have to choose
between the two?
No, I don't think I everthought I had to Choose. In reality,
I feel like I have to make thechoices a lot more than I thought
I would. They were trying toschedule a board call on my daughter's
(11:13):
birthday and I really put myfoot down and said that I wasn't
available. And then my otherboard had an emergency and I had
to do the board call anyway. Idon't think I imagined those types
of conflicts where you justwant to have dinner with your family
but you also have yourfiduciary which means you're responsible
for the company and so it doestake sacrifices. I don't know that
(11:37):
I knew it would be as messy asit is. The big beautiful mess of
having kids and senior rolesand you do have to, you know, miss
some birthdays but I get to bethere for 90% of the bus pickups.
So I feel like for me it, itbalances out.
Interesting. Thanks forsharing so openly. And you. It's
(11:57):
quite interesting to reflecton how you still did it even though
it is messy. And by the soundof it, it's not easy. You know, from
the outside might look quiteeasy that from four times a year
you attend a board meeting butit's clearly much more intensive
than that. So what makes youdo it? Why not just you're in Hong
Kong, I'm sure you could enjoynext lifestyle and just, you know,
(12:20):
be very active in your kidsschool. Why do you do what you do?
Oh, I love working and I feelwork gives me real purpose and especially
in Asia a lot of the companiesyou're working with are from maybe
emerging markets and so you'rebringing, at least I try to bring
(12:43):
the kind of global bestpractice of corporate governance
and experience from my lifeand my career and you kind of feel
like you add value and you'remaking that company better. You know
your part. If you divide theboard contribution by the number
of board directors and you addyour part, it gives me huge purpose
and I feel very proud aboutwhat I'm doing. And I also love the
(13:08):
companies. I mean I remember Iwas at a board strategy off site.
We had kind of a three day offsite in Singapore for a board that
I previously was on in aNASDAQ listed company. And I remember
thinking I would do this forfree. It's so interesting and dynamic
and thinking about where theworld is going to be and how our
company can can pivot and beready for that next phase and what
(13:30):
we have to do now and all themoving parts. I, I love it. I find
it fascinating.
It does sound interesting. SoI, I've never been an expat in. As
I've worked abroad, but not ina traditional expat lifestyle, but
from friends who do have thatlifestyle. I hear that quite often
(13:51):
there's a lot of it is the menwho move because of their jobs and
the women they follow. Andthen they're very gendered expectations,
and maybe even more genderedexpectations than when you. If you
were back in your homecountry. I was wondering whether
that's something you'veexperienced at all and any prejudices
(14:11):
about what you should be doingor how you should live your life.
Well, I moved here almostimmediately after university by myself.
I had studied Chinese languageat university, and I was trying to
finish it off and becomereally fluent, which never happened.
My Chinese is terrible. And soI sort of came here working. And
(14:31):
my primary reason for movingto Hong Kong was the job I got. And
then after about a year here,I changed jobs and went to be an
investment banker. And I metmy husband here, who, incidentally,
is also an American who hadmoved here for his job at a different
investment bank. And so ourmarriage was always based on two
(14:51):
careers. And especially in theyounger years, in the early days,
there are a lot of women ininvestment banking. I would say they
probably have 50, 50 in thekind of analyst and associate years.
I was probably the only expatfemale, but I wasn't the only expat
and I wasn't the only female.So I never really saw an issue with
(15:12):
it. I mean, I love learningabout different cultures and industries
and countries. And so for me,it was just like drinking from a
fire hose. I got to. I think Idid 25, and the economy was quite
good. Then I joined Merrilllynch in 2005. So, you know, I did
deals in Indonesia and Chinaand Thailand and the Philippines
(15:34):
and Pakistan and, you know,everywhere. And I. And they were
all different industries fromshipping and gaming and cement and,
you know, metals and mining.So I don't think I ever had any.
And it was a. I was young, soI don't think the kind of wife, children
(15:54):
thing really even factored in.I dated my husband for five years
before we got married, andthen we waited another five years
before we had kids. Socertainly our relationship and our
social group was very, like,work focused.
And what was your lowestpoint, would you say, of combining
a big career with youngchildren? Can you remember any particular
low points and moreimportantly, what you learned from
(16:16):
them?
So many low points. I thinkso. I've always done okay in balancing
work and the kids, but Ihaven't always done that well in
taking care of myself. And I'msure a lot of your audience struggles
with self care. And I rememberkind of getting super stressed because,
(16:40):
you know, the list of thingsto do was just so long. And I don't
think I'd had a haircut infour months. And I remember crying
in the office and my. My boss,who's actually a mother of seven
children and she's the CEO ofa charity, she said, sometimes you
just need to cancel all yourmeetings and go get a haircut. And
I think, you know, sometimeswe put these standards around, like,
(17:03):
I can't cancel a meeting onanyone. I have to go to everything
and be there for everyone. Butactually, sometimes we just need
to cancel all our meetings andgo get a haircut. I mean, it really
did so much for my mentalhealth this year. I had. There was
some confusion with the datesof some of my board meetings. And
(17:24):
so I had to miss my daughter'sswim meet. And I'm a swimmer. I was
on the swim team at our club.And I've been kind of coaching her.
And it was reallydisappointing to miss that. I was
very sad. She seemed fine,actually. I don't think it bothered
her. Daddy was there and, youknow, we prepared and celebrated
(17:45):
and I coached her. But I feltreally horrible because I felt like
that was a special thing, thatI should have been there for her.
But as I said, I think it ismessy. And there's all these moments
where you just. You have tomake a choice, and it's. You just
can't have both. But like Isaid before, if you're intentional
about thinking about whatmatters to you, so it really matters
(18:06):
to me that I read to mychildren in the evenings. I love
to read them picture books.And I actually track whether I've
read to them each day. And Iaim to do it five nights a week.
And so there are nights that Iknow I have a board meeting or a
call, so I'll read to them inthe morning. Then I can say at the
end of the week, even if Imissed dinner a couple times, that
(18:28):
I read to them five out ofseven days, which for me is pretty
good. So I think there'speriodic low points. I'm sure there
will be more, but I woulddefinitely wouldn't trade it.
You use the word messing quitea lot. And yet you also seem to be
(18:48):
a really avid, passionatesupporter of planning. And I'm interested.
I mean, what's your personalapproach? Do you try to have to be
organized within the mess andcraziness or do you just give up
and go with flow sometimes?
So I don't think I've evergone with the flow. But sometimes
(19:10):
I do give up. So I have to beorganized in my head mostly. I mean,
I like my physical space to beorganized, but I do have the ability
to just ignore the pile ofpapers over there while I'm focused
on something else. But Ireally have to be organized about
my time. And I do kind ofcascading set of planning. So I do
(19:37):
a three day off site everyyear. Okay, it's not always three
days and it's not always allby myself, but I take three days
to plan what I really want toaccomplish in the year and I set
my goals. And then once aquarter I try to block a day to review
how I'm doing. You know, justto kind of review and then a kind
of tweaking. So maybe I'm, youknow, one of my goals is I'd like
(20:01):
to join a Hong Kong listedboard. I was named to a Hong Kong
listed board of a company whowas going public but then their IPO
was delayed because of marketconditions. So I'm back on that goal.
So what am I doing towardsthat goal? Am I meeting people? Am
I talking to search firms? Andthen once a month I will take a morning
and just kind of look at whatI've accomplished that month and
(20:22):
set my intentions for the nextmonth. I do an hour a week, so on
kind of Friday mornings I lookat the upcoming week and all the
things I have to do and I planwhen I'm going to do them. And then
each day I take about 10minutes to kind of set my priorities
for the day. And that way evenif I don't get the 300 things done,
if I get my most importantthree things done, I can feel accomplished
(20:44):
and can kind of give up on therest. Because you're never going
to do it all. I mean, that'sone thing I learned a long time ago
that you're never going to getall the time with your kids. You're
never going to get all theemails done, you're never going to
get all the tasks done.
I feel like I'm speaking to mymirror image in the, in the planning
world because I, I have comearound to that as well. So, so I
(21:07):
do similar. I probably, Idefinitely plan 15 minutes a day
and I start today with that.And I also have planning time for
weekly planning set out. I'vegot a, I've done those for, for my
work Obviously I do long termplanning, not so much for myself,
but I think it's absolutelytransformational. But the interesting
thing is it felt like such aluxury at the beginning. Like I thought
(21:29):
I should be working. Why am Ispending time with my planner? Oh
my goodness. That just. Youhave to get over it. Or even saying
no to meetings during yourplanning time. It's such an interesting
thing and yet it's made me somuch more productive in terms of
the actual value add of myrole so I can advocate it more. I
do think, and even if youunderstand it is going to be messy
(21:53):
having a plan and having withthe Leaders Plus Fellowship, we support
people to create a vision andthen create a backwards plan and
so on from that. And I thinkeven that process of creating it,
it then makes it so much morelikely that you achieve it is there's
even research that makes itmore likely that you achieve it.
So yeah, yeah. And there'sresearch that for every one hour
(22:14):
you spend planning, you save10 hours of work. So you say it's
a luxury, but actually you'rebuying yourself more time. And I
think especially in the modernera, and I'm really careful about
my digital use because I thinkso we use WhatsApp in Asia and I
probably get a thousandWhatsApp messages every day. If you
(22:37):
include my board chats, likeall my boards have chats and then
there's chats for thecommittees and then there's like
subgroups within them plus allthe individual management, CEO, cfo,
COO of each company plus allthe other board members and the chair
people. And then you have allthe kid chats and you have a grade
wide chat and you have a classchat and then you have all the play
(22:59):
date individual set up andthen you have the soccer team chat.
I mean it adds up. And so ifyou don't plan, you will be derailed
by the constant requests foryour time. So I try to do digital
free planning, which is why Ilove using a paper planner. Because
I can sit down with my plannerand say, okay, here are the three
things I'm doing today and Ican check my phone at lunchtime and
(23:24):
then I can deal with all themessages. Rather than being real
time responsive, I'm able todo that, you know, because of my
role, but I think people couldprobably be less responsive. There's,
there's a bunch of models outthere. I know you had a podcast recently
about the four day work week,but there's a bunch of models out
there about how we can usecorporate Time more efficiently so
(23:47):
that people can get more doneand work fewer hours. And planning
is definitely one of those tools.
I sometimes do coffee shopdays and I encourage my team to do
it as well. Where you just goto a coffee shop and work from there
with the aim of not checkingyour emails, not logging into Asana
or whatever tool you use. Andthat's, that's quite helpful, I feel.
(24:11):
I, I always want to supportwomen led businesses and I feel like
this would be a good place togive a plug to your company. So why
don't you share what, whatyour company does and how to get
involved?
It was such a leap of faith, Ihave to say. So this year I've been
using a planner. We've beentalking about planning. I've been
using various planners foryears and I feel as you do that they
(24:35):
just give me so muchdirection. And I also really enjoy
it because I feel confident inhow I'm spending my time. But what
I found was no tool wasperfect for me, partially because
I have two kids plus fourboard rolls plus, you know, the million
other things you're doing. Andso I designed my own planner based
(24:56):
on a bunch of features thatI'd used elsewhere and some that
I designed myself. And Icombined it into a quarterly planner
called the Halo Planner. Soyou actually get four books a year
and the first page has yourpurpose and the second page has your
impossible goals. And so thewhole premise of the planner is we
(25:16):
are all capable of doing somuch more than we give ourselves
credit for. And I think thisgoes into the imposter syndrome and
the who do you think you are?And all this, all this that actually
you are trying to combat,which is like, oh, I have kids so
I can't do the things I want.But I have, I know because I've seen
people do it, I'm doing itmyself, that we can achieve great
(25:40):
things while having greatrelationships and taking care of
ourselves. It just takes a lotof planning. So this is a planner
for people who really want tobe ambitious, who don't think ambition
is a dirty word, but also wantto have a high impact life and be
accountable to their lovedones. So the whole planner is designed
(26:00):
really for people just like uswho are working parents and have
a million things going on, amillion balls in the air.
Sounds great. I think thetricky thing with you doing 100 different
things is board roles, yourown business, kids, charity roles,
is that it all bleeds intoeach other. Do you set boundaries?
(26:21):
And if. Yes, how do you do it?
Yeah. So I'm really terribleat setting boundaries. I'll just
be honest. I really struggle.So I have had to develop, you know,
several tools on how to setboundaries. I think the first one
is I come up with rules. So,for example, like I said, I want
(26:42):
to take my kids off the busthree days a week, which means I
only have two days a week formeetings, which actually really is
not that much, especiallygiven that I'll often have board
calls. And so it kind offorces you to prioritize. So you
can't say yes to everythingbecause you only have those two and
you have to save it for work.I also, within the Halo Planner,
(27:04):
because I know particularlyfor women, but for men too, saying
no is really hard. We don'twant to disappoint people. And also
I have the problem where I'minterested in so many different things.
So I always want to say yes tomore things than I can. I also want
to encourage people. It's partof my mission to inspire others.
But we just can't doeverything. And so I created a page
(27:26):
in the back of the plannercalled Saying no. And it basically
asks you, what did I say noto? And what am I saying yes to?
So I think it gives me thecourage to say no when I really don't
want to. So when I get thatcringy feeling of I really know I
should say no, but I reallydon't want to, I write it down on
that, my. On that page to giveme courage to do it and say, I'm
(27:48):
saying yes to eight hours ofsleep. I'm saying yes to having dinner
with my family, and I'm sayingyes to being totally prepared for
my board meetings, becausewhen I say yes to those other things,
it means I can't get thosereally important priorities. And
I think the other thing that'ssuper important about setting boundaries
is it. It doesn't mean noforever. It just means no right now.
(28:11):
And sometimes that helps me.So I also have in the back of the
planner a perhaps list. Soit's like, no, I can't join that
committee right now, but I'mgoing to write it in the perhaps
list because it soundsawesome. I just don't have the capacity
right now. And then I canreview it at the end of the quarter,
the end of the year, and seeif it's something that I want to
replace one of my other roleswith. And so we're, you know, you
(28:32):
said your kids are the similarage as mine. We're at a phase where
our kids love Being with usand you know, they're so fun. And
so it's not forever. I mean, Ihave a. Because I had my children
a little bit older. I have alot of friends whose children are
going off to university orboarding school and they're in the
(28:54):
grieving process, you know,because their life is going to change,
they're going to the nextphase. And I just want to have every
single minute that I possiblycan with my kids now. And there's
always going to be time foranother committee later. So that
those are some of the tools Imake rules about saying no. I track
what I say no to and what itmeans I get to say yes to. And I
(29:16):
keep a perhaps list of thingsthat I might want to do in the future
that it's not no forever, it'sjust no for right now.
Brilliant. Thank you so much.One more question I wanted to ask.
Sorry. I'm really interestedin what shaped you and what got you
the way that you are. Andusually that's advice that people
get. And I was just wonderingwhether you had any moments or role
(29:38):
models or pieces of advicethat really shaped how you approach
the combination of multiplebig careers with two still relatively
young children.
Yeah, before I had kids, I wasdoing a big deal and there was a
senior female banker on theother side of the deal. So I was
(29:58):
buying the company from her.But she and I got to be friends and
there was just too many othermen around and we stayed friends
and she told me she had twokids who were both very good academically
and sporty and thriving. Andshe had a huge career as an investment
banker and now sits on theboard of Footsie 100 companies. I
(30:19):
mean really big ones. And shetold me, when you have kids, make
sure you have more help thanyou need, she said, because you're.
It's a luxury of course, to beable to do that, but she said you
don't want to be having tomake the decision not being able
to be on a really importantconference call or stay in the office
for a really important meetingbecause you can't cancel on your
(30:42):
nanny again because she'llquit. Because I think for jobs like
these where you're workingquite a lot of hours and traveling
a lot, you actually need morecover because you don't want to exhaust
or disappoint the help you'vehired. So even if you can't afford
a full time nanny, I do thinkkeeping the philosophy of having
(31:06):
some buffer help so that I'vehad to go on last minute business
trips, and you don't want tobe scrambling for a babysitter. So
I think just having a littleextra. I know some people really
struggle to hire help. And wemade the decision to hire a nanny
for each of my children whenthey were born. And so my children
(31:27):
have had the same nannies. Wedecided to pay them very generously
compared to the localstandards. And we were very clear
about expectations, which isthe kids are safe, happy, and healthy
and that they get along. Andother than that, we don't care. And
so I think we really tried tomanage our childcare in the way we
(31:51):
would manage any employees,about looking at compensation and
goal structure and jobsatisfaction in the same way that
I would look at any teammember or management team.
Yeah, I think, as you say,that's a really wonderful position
to be in if you can. But it isalso something that I've learned.
(32:13):
I think what I've learned isthat even just having multiple babysitters
and not just relying on one sothat you can go to plan A, B, C,
D if needed, and also that youhave some friends, you try, if you
have the ability that you makefriends with the other parents at
a school gate, because thenyou can help each other out in crisis
(32:33):
situations. And I've beenincredibly grateful for that.
I mean, I may point out, isthat we have no family within 10,000
miles, and expat communitiesand our local Hong Kong Chinese friends,
they're a little bit morenomadic. So, you know, I remember
I've had to redo my will andmy estate planning multiple times
(32:57):
to put a guardian for thechildren because the people keep
moving away from Hong Kong andthey. They go to another country.
And so I think we do that alsobecause we don't have any other cover,
emergency cover. So I thinkit's been important for us to have
that.
Absolutely, absolutely. We'recoming towards the end of our podcast,
(33:21):
and as I said, I would like tochallenge you to share three practical
things. So if someone islistening to this and perhaps is
in an executive role, wants totake on board roles, but also wants
to do it in a way that workswith bringing up young children,
can you think of one or two ormaybe even three things that take
(33:43):
no more than five minutes thatthey can do this week to get the
process started?
Well, I think there's lots ofgreat training programs for board
roles. I mean, there's somany. There's generalist ones, and
then there's one on spec, someon specific skills. I did a course
at Oxford focused on bankBoards, So only directors who wanted
(34:04):
to be for banks. I did anincredible ESG training course online.
I did a risk managementcourse. So there's lots of training
courses you could sign up forright now. And some of them are very
short. You know, some of themare one day, and then some of them
are, are multiple weeks.They're structured all different
ways. And so I do think justgetting familiar of the structure,
(34:24):
roles and responsibilities fora board. I think the second thing
about getting on boards isthey happen two ways. The first way
is through who the CEO andother board members know within their
community. So if you havenetworks of people at companies that
you admire, that you want tothink about board roles, just getting
(34:45):
to know them and talking aboutboard experience and kind of just
be more visible. The otherway, of course, is the search firms.
And so I try to at least oncea year, catch up with the head of
the board practice of eachsearch firm. I want to caveat that
I've never gotten a job from asearch firm. I've always been through
(35:06):
my own network. And I think insome ways search firms, although
they're really trying toemphasize gender diversity, they
tend to be more conservativebecause it's harder for them to take
a risk. The way I got my firstcorporate board role was somebody
just decided to hire me. And Iasked him years later, like, why
did you pick me? Like, I hadno board experience, no corporate
(35:29):
board experience. And he said,well, it has to be everybody's first
time sometime. And I do think,you know, the people who make decisions
about who gets hired and boardhave a lot of ability to appoint
women and they should do itmore. And I guess the third thing
about boards is patience. Imean, that's not a five minute thing.
(35:50):
But put it down as a goal,write it as your impossible goal.
You totally can do it. Andstart thinking about a one year,
two year, three year planabout how to get on a board. NGO
boards always need people whowill roll their sleeves up and participate.
And I have loved my experienceon NGO boards, and they are in no
(36:12):
way at all less demanding,challenging or interesting than corporate
board roles. It's, you know,and my, my two boards are filled
with incredible professionalsfrom all different walks of life
on my two NGO boards. And I'veloved it. So, yeah, that is, that's
my three pieces of advice.
Wonderful. Thank you so much.And if people want to find out more
(36:35):
about you, connect with you,learn about your work, where should
they go?
So I'm on LinkedIn, RebeccaBrosnan and the Halo Planner is www.thehaloplanner.com
H A L O and you can find theHalo Planner on Instagram as well.
And I do tutorials about howto plan that. Even if you don't have
(36:56):
the physical planner, you cankind of think about monthly, weekly,
daily planning if you're justnew to planning or you're new to
goal setting. I do a lot oftutorials for people and there's
a lot you can do even if youdon't. Even if you just have a blank
notebook.
Absolutely. It's been a realpleasure chatting to you, Rebecca.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
(37:19):
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just callto Ferina Hefti and I'll be delighted
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
(37:39):
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chartingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the Podcast on Fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same then please head over to
(38:02):
leadersplus.org/Fellowship inorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combineambitious career with young children
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male, middle classpeople leading our organizations.
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast. I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family. And you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program, be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with
the courage that they instillin each other to do what is right
for them without apologizingfor having a family or apologizing
(02:14):
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship.
Today I'm chatting to RebeccaBrosnan about how she set up her
portfolio. Career which isinternational, includes boards roles
in listed organizations. Shealso shares how she sets boundaries
(02:38):
and what her approach is toplanning. She's an absolute advocate
for for planning your careerand clearly it seems to have worked
really well for her given thelevel of seniority she's achieved.
I hope you get something fromthe conversation. Let me know what
you think.
Hi, I'm Rebecca Brosnan. I'Moriginally from the U.S. but I've
(03:00):
lived in Hong Kong for nearly21 years. And in terms of work, I'm
the CEO and founder of theHalo Planner, which creates tools
to help people achieve theirgoals. In addition, I serve on the
board of Taylor MaritimeInvestments, which is a London listed
company. And I'm the IFCnominated director of the Citibank,
(03:21):
which is a leading bank inBangladesh. And I also serve on two
nonprofit boards. One isMother's Choice, which takes care
of children without families,and the other is Generations Christian
Education, which is theoperator of primary schools and kindergartens
here in Hong Kong. And in myfamily I have a wonderful husband
and two children, an eightyear old son and a six year old daughter.
(03:44):
Lovely. I have that as well.Eight and six and a three year old.
Such a fun age.
Absolutely. And can you sharewith our listeners one thing you
used to subscribe to aboutcombining a big career with young
children that you don'tbelieve in anymore?
So I have always been prettyambitious with my career. I had very
(04:06):
lofty dreams and so I think Ialways wanted to have children, but
I don't think I appreciatedhow much I would love them, how overwhelming
that feeling was that I wantedto be with them. And when my first
child was born, I even criedwhen I was outside a different room
than him. And I was notprepared for how much time I wanted
(04:28):
to spend with them. So I thinkI thought I'd be happy to travel,
I'd be happy to work latenights and I I'd still be fine just
seeing the kids on the offnight or on the weekends. And it
really was not the case. Sothat's something I had to adjust
to and, and make careerdecisions around.
I mean, it's interestingbecause in Bay you've started your
own thing, but you're alsoworking quite traditional. I mean
(04:51):
the finance sector in Asia,I'm not imagining it might it's the
most forward thinking futureof work type environment. How have
you structured your workinglife then to fit with that desire
to be present with your children?
Well, when I had my children Ileft executive roles in finance.
(05:14):
So I was at the time I wasworking at the Hong Kong Stock Exchange.
I was running corporatestrategy and mergers and acquisitions
and I then ran the commoditiestrading business and product development
and I worked a lot of hours.And so when I decided to have children,
I left and went to be the COOof an ngo, which was still a lot
(05:37):
of work, a lot ofresponsibility had to be organized.
But because it was Hong Kongbased, there was no travel and an
emergency was a realemergency. So if a baby had been
abandoned, I got called in thenight. But other than that we tried
to keep pretty standard hours.So I was able to structure around
that. And then since then I'vedecided to do a portfolio career
(06:02):
of non executive roles. Soserving on boards of companies which
meet in a kind of physicalsession once a quarter and then maybe
monthly calls. There's a lotof reading, there's a lot of work,
it's very high impact but it'sa lot of flexibility. So if I want
to, if I have eight hours ofboard reading to do, I'm doing it
(06:24):
at home and I can still get mychildren off the bus. So I've picked
roles that allow me to planahead so I'll know a year in advance
the dates of those boardmeetings. And that give me the flexibility
to physically be where mychildren are when I need to be. It's
not perfect. Things do comeup. I think if something, if there's
(06:45):
an emergency and you're on theboard, it's a real emergency. So
sometimes it's not perfect,but I, I feel like the balance for
me is better because I, I getto see my kids in the afternoons
every day.
Interesting. And it'sinteresting because a board career
just for the listeners who arenot, haven't thought of this before,
but as a board member you areessentially part of a group of people
(07:11):
who are the boss of the CEO.And so I think we really need to
underline that that is verysenior role and especially being
on the board listed company,that's not, it's not a, it's not
an opt out of the workforce.On the contrary, it's a real, it's
a real opt in. And what I alsolike is that those are roles where
(07:31):
you make decisions about moneyand resource. And I think that's
important because not enoughwomen and people from ethnic minorities
have that power to decide onresource even if they have a name
in, you know, if leadership isin their job title. And just to dig
(07:53):
a bit deeper into this. What,what, how did you, how do you, did
you get onto a board? Likewhat, what's the, what's the process?
Yeah, I know it's like it'sprobably too long for a massive,
for, you know, but I'm justinterested, like how did that happen?
Yeah, so I think the first isthat I was really lucky in my executive
(08:17):
career. I did a lot of mergersand acquisitions so I bought companies
or I looked at lots ofdifferent companies to buy or I would,
yeah, basically looking atthat and looking at combinations
of businesses. So it was a, along term, you know, strategic focus.
So where is this businessgoing to be in one year, three years,
(08:38):
five years, 10 years? Andtechnically, according to the best
corporate governance practicestrategies owned by the board. So
I spent a lot of time in mycorporate jobs actually working with
the board, particularly at theHong Kong Stock Exchange, and I led
the acquisition of the LondonMetal Exchange, which is a largest
(09:00):
base metals trading forum. Andso I got to be very close with the
board members and also got tosee how they made their decisions,
what types of questions theyasked. So I think my executive career,
I had a lot of exposure toboards and board members and how
they think and what they caredabout and, you know, how to prepare
for boards, et cetera. I thinkthe second thing that happened is
(09:22):
I've always been reallyengaged in my community. So I was
asked, as you say, I have afinancial background which is always
in the in need for schools andNGOs because a lot of people who
choose to go into those rolesmaybe have more of a social work
background or et cetera. So Iwas asked to join the board of my
(09:44):
children's school and chairthe finance committee. And so I did
that while I was still workingas an executive. And so I think it
kind of set me up to be boardready for a corporate role. And then
the other thing I would sayjust add for your listeners, because
I know women on boards is ahot topic, is it just takes a lot
(10:07):
longer than an executive role.So it's not like there's an opening
and they interview and thenyou get the job and you hear within
a few months it's, I mean,both of my boards took 18 months
from the first discussionuntil finally joining because boards
really plan long term on whattype of skill sets they need and
what type of candidates theywant. And for a variety of reasons,
(10:31):
it's a very in depth process,both with the board and with headhunters.
So.
Absolutely. So real call toinvest in that network. It doesn't
hurt to have finance skills orto brush up on, on those. And I think
in the uk, for our UKlisteners, there's also an organization
called Women on Boards whooffer very practical support with
(10:51):
board CVS that look slightlydifferent. Did you always think it
was going to be possible tohave such a senior career with children
or did you think, well,actually I probably have to choose
between the two?
No, I don't think I everthought I had to Choose. In reality,
I feel like I have to make thechoices a lot more than I thought
I would. They were trying toschedule a board call on my daughter's
(11:13):
birthday and I really put myfoot down and said that I wasn't
available. And then my otherboard had an emergency and I had
to do the board call anyway. Idon't think I imagined those types
of conflicts where you justwant to have dinner with your family
but you also have yourfiduciary which means you're responsible
for the company and so it doestake sacrifices. I don't know that
(11:37):
I knew it would be as messy asit is. The big beautiful mess of
having kids and senior rolesand you do have to, you know, miss
some birthdays but I get to bethere for 90% of the bus pickups.
So I feel like for me it, itbalances out.
Interesting. Thanks forsharing so openly. And you. It's
(11:57):
quite interesting to reflecton how you still did it even though
it is messy. And by the soundof it, it's not easy. You know, from
the outside might look quiteeasy that from four times a year
you attend a board meeting butit's clearly much more intensive
than that. So what makes youdo it? Why not just you're in Hong
Kong, I'm sure you could enjoynext lifestyle and just, you know,
(12:20):
be very active in your kidsschool. Why do you do what you do?
Oh, I love working and I feelwork gives me real purpose and especially
in Asia a lot of the companiesyou're working with are from maybe
emerging markets and so you'rebringing, at least I try to bring
(12:43):
the kind of global bestpractice of corporate governance
and experience from my lifeand my career and you kind of feel
like you add value and you'remaking that company better. You know
your part. If you divide theboard contribution by the number
of board directors and you addyour part, it gives me huge purpose
and I feel very proud aboutwhat I'm doing. And I also love the
(13:08):
companies. I mean I remember Iwas at a board strategy off site.
We had kind of a three day offsite in Singapore for a board that
I previously was on in aNASDAQ listed company. And I remember
thinking I would do this forfree. It's so interesting and dynamic
and thinking about where theworld is going to be and how our
company can can pivot and beready for that next phase and what
(13:30):
we have to do now and all themoving parts. I, I love it. I find
it fascinating.
It does sound interesting. SoI, I've never been an expat in. As
I've worked abroad, but not ina traditional expat lifestyle, but
from friends who do have thatlifestyle. I hear that quite often
(13:51):
there's a lot of it is the menwho move because of their jobs and
the women they follow. Andthen they're very gendered expectations,
and maybe even more genderedexpectations than when you. If you
were back in your homecountry. I was wondering whether
that's something you'veexperienced at all and any prejudices
(14:11):
about what you should be doingor how you should live your life.
Well, I moved here almostimmediately after university by myself.
I had studied Chinese languageat university, and I was trying to
finish it off and becomereally fluent, which never happened.
My Chinese is terrible. And soI sort of came here working. And
(14:31):
my primary reason for movingto Hong Kong was the job I got. And
then after about a year here,I changed jobs and went to be an
investment banker. And I metmy husband here, who, incidentally,
is also an American who hadmoved here for his job at a different
investment bank. And so ourmarriage was always based on two
(14:51):
careers. And especially in theyounger years, in the early days,
there are a lot of women ininvestment banking. I would say they
probably have 50, 50 in thekind of analyst and associate years.
I was probably the only expatfemale, but I wasn't the only expat
and I wasn't the only female.So I never really saw an issue with
(15:12):
it. I mean, I love learningabout different cultures and industries
and countries. And so for me,it was just like drinking from a
fire hose. I got to. I think Idid 25, and the economy was quite
good. Then I joined Merrilllynch in 2005. So, you know, I did
deals in Indonesia and Chinaand Thailand and the Philippines
(15:34):
and Pakistan and, you know,everywhere. And I. And they were
all different industries fromshipping and gaming and cement and,
you know, metals and mining.So I don't think I ever had any.
And it was a. I was young, soI don't think the kind of wife, children
(15:54):
thing really even factored in.I dated my husband for five years
before we got married, andthen we waited another five years
before we had kids. Socertainly our relationship and our
social group was very, like,work focused.
And what was your lowestpoint, would you say, of combining
a big career with youngchildren? Can you remember any particular
low points and moreimportantly, what you learned from
(16:16):
them?
So many low points. I thinkso. I've always done okay in balancing
work and the kids, but Ihaven't always done that well in
taking care of myself. And I'msure a lot of your audience struggles
with self care. And I rememberkind of getting super stressed because,
(16:40):
you know, the list of thingsto do was just so long. And I don't
think I'd had a haircut infour months. And I remember crying
in the office and my. My boss,who's actually a mother of seven
children and she's the CEO ofa charity, she said, sometimes you
just need to cancel all yourmeetings and go get a haircut. And
I think, you know, sometimeswe put these standards around, like,
(17:03):
I can't cancel a meeting onanyone. I have to go to everything
and be there for everyone. Butactually, sometimes we just need
to cancel all our meetings andgo get a haircut. I mean, it really
did so much for my mentalhealth this year. I had. There was
some confusion with the datesof some of my board meetings. And
(17:24):
so I had to miss my daughter'sswim meet. And I'm a swimmer. I was
on the swim team at our club.And I've been kind of coaching her.
And it was reallydisappointing to miss that. I was
very sad. She seemed fine,actually. I don't think it bothered
her. Daddy was there and, youknow, we prepared and celebrated
(17:45):
and I coached her. But I feltreally horrible because I felt like
that was a special thing, thatI should have been there for her.
But as I said, I think it ismessy. And there's all these moments
where you just. You have tomake a choice, and it's. You just
can't have both. But like Isaid before, if you're intentional
about thinking about whatmatters to you, so it really matters
(18:06):
to me that I read to mychildren in the evenings. I love
to read them picture books.And I actually track whether I've
read to them each day. And Iaim to do it five nights a week.
And so there are nights that Iknow I have a board meeting or a
call, so I'll read to them inthe morning. Then I can say at the
end of the week, even if Imissed dinner a couple times, that
(18:28):
I read to them five out ofseven days, which for me is pretty
good. So I think there'speriodic low points. I'm sure there
will be more, but I woulddefinitely wouldn't trade it.
You use the word messing quitea lot. And yet you also seem to be
(18:48):
a really avid, passionatesupporter of planning. And I'm interested.
I mean, what's your personalapproach? Do you try to have to be
organized within the mess andcraziness or do you just give up
and go with flow sometimes?
So I don't think I've evergone with the flow. But sometimes
(19:10):
I do give up. So I have to beorganized in my head mostly. I mean,
I like my physical space to beorganized, but I do have the ability
to just ignore the pile ofpapers over there while I'm focused
on something else. But Ireally have to be organized about
my time. And I do kind ofcascading set of planning. So I do
(19:37):
a three day off site everyyear. Okay, it's not always three
days and it's not always allby myself, but I take three days
to plan what I really want toaccomplish in the year and I set
my goals. And then once aquarter I try to block a day to review
how I'm doing. You know, justto kind of review and then a kind
of tweaking. So maybe I'm, youknow, one of my goals is I'd like
(20:01):
to join a Hong Kong listedboard. I was named to a Hong Kong
listed board of a company whowas going public but then their IPO
was delayed because of marketconditions. So I'm back on that goal.
So what am I doing towardsthat goal? Am I meeting people? Am
I talking to search firms? Andthen once a month I will take a morning
and just kind of look at whatI've accomplished that month and
(20:22):
set my intentions for the nextmonth. I do an hour a week, so on
kind of Friday mornings I lookat the upcoming week and all the
things I have to do and I planwhen I'm going to do them. And then
each day I take about 10minutes to kind of set my priorities
for the day. And that way evenif I don't get the 300 things done,
if I get my most importantthree things done, I can feel accomplished
(20:44):
and can kind of give up on therest. Because you're never going
to do it all. I mean, that'sone thing I learned a long time ago
that you're never going to getall the time with your kids. You're
never going to get all theemails done, you're never going to
get all the tasks done.
I feel like I'm speaking to mymirror image in the, in the planning
world because I, I have comearound to that as well. So, so I
(21:07):
do similar. I probably, Idefinitely plan 15 minutes a day
and I start today with that.And I also have planning time for
weekly planning set out. I'vegot a, I've done those for, for my
work Obviously I do long termplanning, not so much for myself,
but I think it's absolutelytransformational. But the interesting
thing is it felt like such aluxury at the beginning. Like I thought
(21:29):
I should be working. Why am Ispending time with my planner? Oh
my goodness. That just. Youhave to get over it. Or even saying
no to meetings during yourplanning time. It's such an interesting
thing and yet it's made me somuch more productive in terms of
the actual value add of myrole so I can advocate it more. I
do think, and even if youunderstand it is going to be messy
(21:53):
having a plan and having withthe Leaders Plus Fellowship, we support
people to create a vision andthen create a backwards plan and
so on from that. And I thinkeven that process of creating it,
it then makes it so much morelikely that you achieve it is there's
even research that makes itmore likely that you achieve it.
So yeah, yeah. And there'sresearch that for every one hour
(22:14):
you spend planning, you save10 hours of work. So you say it's
a luxury, but actually you'rebuying yourself more time. And I
think especially in the modernera, and I'm really careful about
my digital use because I thinkso we use WhatsApp in Asia and I
probably get a thousandWhatsApp messages every day. If you
(22:37):
include my board chats, likeall my boards have chats and then
there's chats for thecommittees and then there's like
subgroups within them plus allthe individual management, CEO, cfo,
COO of each company plus allthe other board members and the chair
people. And then you have allthe kid chats and you have a grade
wide chat and you have a classchat and then you have all the play
(22:59):
date individual set up andthen you have the soccer team chat.
I mean it adds up. And so ifyou don't plan, you will be derailed
by the constant requests foryour time. So I try to do digital
free planning, which is why Ilove using a paper planner. Because
I can sit down with my plannerand say, okay, here are the three
things I'm doing today and Ican check my phone at lunchtime and
(23:24):
then I can deal with all themessages. Rather than being real
time responsive, I'm able todo that, you know, because of my
role, but I think people couldprobably be less responsive. There's,
there's a bunch of models outthere. I know you had a podcast recently
about the four day work week,but there's a bunch of models out
there about how we can usecorporate Time more efficiently so
(23:47):
that people can get more doneand work fewer hours. And planning
is definitely one of those tools.
I sometimes do coffee shopdays and I encourage my team to do
it as well. Where you just goto a coffee shop and work from there
with the aim of not checkingyour emails, not logging into Asana
or whatever tool you use. Andthat's, that's quite helpful, I feel.
(24:11):
I, I always want to supportwomen led businesses and I feel like
this would be a good place togive a plug to your company. So why
don't you share what, whatyour company does and how to get
involved?
It was such a leap of faith, Ihave to say. So this year I've been
using a planner. We've beentalking about planning. I've been
using various planners foryears and I feel as you do that they
(24:35):
just give me so muchdirection. And I also really enjoy
it because I feel confident inhow I'm spending my time. But what
I found was no tool wasperfect for me, partially because
I have two kids plus fourboard rolls plus, you know, the million
other things you're doing. Andso I designed my own planner based
(24:56):
on a bunch of features thatI'd used elsewhere and some that
I designed myself. And Icombined it into a quarterly planner
called the Halo Planner. Soyou actually get four books a year
and the first page has yourpurpose and the second page has your
impossible goals. And so thewhole premise of the planner is we
(25:16):
are all capable of doing somuch more than we give ourselves
credit for. And I think thisgoes into the imposter syndrome and
the who do you think you are?And all this, all this that actually
you are trying to combat,which is like, oh, I have kids so
I can't do the things I want.But I have, I know because I've seen
people do it, I'm doing itmyself, that we can achieve great
(25:40):
things while having greatrelationships and taking care of
ourselves. It just takes a lotof planning. So this is a planner
for people who really want tobe ambitious, who don't think ambition
is a dirty word, but also wantto have a high impact life and be
accountable to their lovedones. So the whole planner is designed
(26:00):
really for people just like uswho are working parents and have
a million things going on, amillion balls in the air.
Sounds great. I think thetricky thing with you doing 100 different
things is board roles, yourown business, kids, charity roles,
is that it all bleeds intoeach other. Do you set boundaries?
(26:21):
And if. Yes, how do you do it?
Yeah. So I'm really terribleat setting boundaries. I'll just
be honest. I really struggle.So I have had to develop, you know,
several tools on how to setboundaries. I think the first one
is I come up with rules. So,for example, like I said, I want
(26:42):
to take my kids off the busthree days a week, which means I
only have two days a week formeetings, which actually really is
not that much, especiallygiven that I'll often have board
calls. And so it kind offorces you to prioritize. So you
can't say yes to everythingbecause you only have those two and
you have to save it for work.I also, within the Halo Planner,
(27:04):
because I know particularlyfor women, but for men too, saying
no is really hard. We don'twant to disappoint people. And also
I have the problem where I'minterested in so many different things.
So I always want to say yes tomore things than I can. I also want
to encourage people. It's partof my mission to inspire others.
But we just can't doeverything. And so I created a page
(27:26):
in the back of the plannercalled Saying no. And it basically
asks you, what did I say noto? And what am I saying yes to?
So I think it gives me thecourage to say no when I really don't
want to. So when I get thatcringy feeling of I really know I
should say no, but I reallydon't want to, I write it down on
that, my. On that page to giveme courage to do it and say, I'm
(27:48):
saying yes to eight hours ofsleep. I'm saying yes to having dinner
with my family, and I'm sayingyes to being totally prepared for
my board meetings, becausewhen I say yes to those other things,
it means I can't get thosereally important priorities. And
I think the other thing that'ssuper important about setting boundaries
is it. It doesn't mean noforever. It just means no right now.
(28:11):
And sometimes that helps me.So I also have in the back of the
planner a perhaps list. Soit's like, no, I can't join that
committee right now, but I'mgoing to write it in the perhaps
list because it soundsawesome. I just don't have the capacity
right now. And then I canreview it at the end of the quarter,
the end of the year, and seeif it's something that I want to
replace one of my other roleswith. And so we're, you know, you
(28:32):
said your kids are the similarage as mine. We're at a phase where
our kids love Being with usand you know, they're so fun. And
so it's not forever. I mean, Ihave a. Because I had my children
a little bit older. I have alot of friends whose children are
going off to university orboarding school and they're in the
(28:54):
grieving process, you know,because their life is going to change,
they're going to the nextphase. And I just want to have every
single minute that I possiblycan with my kids now. And there's
always going to be time foranother committee later. So that
those are some of the tools Imake rules about saying no. I track
what I say no to and what itmeans I get to say yes to. And I
(29:16):
keep a perhaps list of thingsthat I might want to do in the future
that it's not no forever, it'sjust no for right now.
Brilliant. Thank you so much.One more question I wanted to ask.
Sorry. I'm really interestedin what shaped you and what got you
the way that you are. Andusually that's advice that people
get. And I was just wonderingwhether you had any moments or role
(29:38):
models or pieces of advicethat really shaped how you approach
the combination of multiplebig careers with two still relatively
young children.
Yeah, before I had kids, I wasdoing a big deal and there was a
senior female banker on theother side of the deal. So I was
(29:58):
buying the company from her.But she and I got to be friends and
there was just too many othermen around and we stayed friends
and she told me she had twokids who were both very good academically
and sporty and thriving. Andshe had a huge career as an investment
banker and now sits on theboard of Footsie 100 companies. I
(30:19):
mean really big ones. And shetold me, when you have kids, make
sure you have more help thanyou need, she said, because you're.
It's a luxury of course, to beable to do that, but she said you
don't want to be having tomake the decision not being able
to be on a really importantconference call or stay in the office
for a really important meetingbecause you can't cancel on your
(30:42):
nanny again because she'llquit. Because I think for jobs like
these where you're workingquite a lot of hours and traveling
a lot, you actually need morecover because you don't want to exhaust
or disappoint the help you'vehired. So even if you can't afford
a full time nanny, I do thinkkeeping the philosophy of having
(31:06):
some buffer help so that I'vehad to go on last minute business
trips, and you don't want tobe scrambling for a babysitter. So
I think just having a littleextra. I know some people really
struggle to hire help. And wemade the decision to hire a nanny
for each of my children whenthey were born. And so my children
(31:27):
have had the same nannies. Wedecided to pay them very generously
compared to the localstandards. And we were very clear
about expectations, which isthe kids are safe, happy, and healthy
and that they get along. Andother than that, we don't care. And
so I think we really tried tomanage our childcare in the way we
(31:51):
would manage any employees,about looking at compensation and
goal structure and jobsatisfaction in the same way that
I would look at any teammember or management team.
Yeah, I think, as you say,that's a really wonderful position
to be in if you can. But it isalso something that I've learned.
(32:13):
I think what I've learned isthat even just having multiple babysitters
and not just relying on one sothat you can go to plan A, B, C,
D if needed, and also that youhave some friends, you try, if you
have the ability that you makefriends with the other parents at
a school gate, because thenyou can help each other out in crisis
(32:33):
situations. And I've beenincredibly grateful for that.
I mean, I may point out, isthat we have no family within 10,000
miles, and expat communitiesand our local Hong Kong Chinese friends,
they're a little bit morenomadic. So, you know, I remember
I've had to redo my will andmy estate planning multiple times
(32:57):
to put a guardian for thechildren because the people keep
moving away from Hong Kong andthey. They go to another country.
And so I think we do that alsobecause we don't have any other cover,
emergency cover. So I thinkit's been important for us to have
that.
Absolutely, absolutely. We'recoming towards the end of our podcast,
(33:21):
and as I said, I would like tochallenge you to share three practical
things. So if someone islistening to this and perhaps is
in an executive role, wants totake on board roles, but also wants
to do it in a way that workswith bringing up young children,
can you think of one or two ormaybe even three things that take
(33:43):
no more than five minutes thatthey can do this week to get the
process started?
Well, I think there's lots ofgreat training programs for board
roles. I mean, there's somany. There's generalist ones, and
then there's one on spec, someon specific skills. I did a course
at Oxford focused on bankBoards, So only directors who wanted
(34:04):
to be for banks. I did anincredible ESG training course online.
I did a risk managementcourse. So there's lots of training
courses you could sign up forright now. And some of them are very
short. You know, some of themare one day, and then some of them
are, are multiple weeks.They're structured all different
ways. And so I do think justgetting familiar of the structure,
(34:24):
roles and responsibilities fora board. I think the second thing
about getting on boards isthey happen two ways. The first way
is through who the CEO andother board members know within their
community. So if you havenetworks of people at companies that
you admire, that you want tothink about board roles, just getting
(34:45):
to know them and talking aboutboard experience and kind of just
be more visible. The otherway, of course, is the search firms.
And so I try to at least oncea year, catch up with the head of
the board practice of eachsearch firm. I want to caveat that
I've never gotten a job from asearch firm. I've always been through
(35:06):
my own network. And I think insome ways search firms, although
they're really trying toemphasize gender diversity, they
tend to be more conservativebecause it's harder for them to take
a risk. The way I got my firstcorporate board role was somebody
just decided to hire me. And Iasked him years later, like, why
did you pick me? Like, I hadno board experience, no corporate
(35:29):
board experience. And he said,well, it has to be everybody's first
time sometime. And I do think,you know, the people who make decisions
about who gets hired and boardhave a lot of ability to appoint
women and they should do itmore. And I guess the third thing
about boards is patience. Imean, that's not a five minute thing.
(35:50):
But put it down as a goal,write it as your impossible goal.
You totally can do it. Andstart thinking about a one year,
two year, three year planabout how to get on a board. NGO
boards always need people whowill roll their sleeves up and participate.
And I have loved my experienceon NGO boards, and they are in no
(36:12):
way at all less demanding,challenging or interesting than corporate
board roles. It's, you know,and my, my two boards are filled
with incredible professionalsfrom all different walks of life
on my two NGO boards. And I'veloved it. So, yeah, that is, that's
my three pieces of advice.
Wonderful. Thank you so much.And if people want to find out more
(36:35):
about you, connect with you,learn about your work, where should
they go?
So I'm on LinkedIn, RebeccaBrosnan and the Halo Planner is www.thehaloplanner.com
H A L O and you can find theHalo Planner on Instagram as well.
And I do tutorials about howto plan that. Even if you don't have
(36:56):
the physical planner, you cankind of think about monthly, weekly,
daily planning if you're justnew to planning or you're new to
goal setting. I do a lot oftutorials for people and there's
a lot you can do even if youdon't. Even if you just have a blank
notebook.
Absolutely. It's been a realpleasure chatting to you, Rebecca.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
(37:19):
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just callto Ferina Hefti and I'll be delighted
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
(37:39):
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chartingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the Podcast on Fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same then please head over to
(38:02):
leadersplus.org/Fellowship inorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combineambitious career with young children
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
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