November 27, 2024 • 45 mins
Can prioritising yourself make you a better parent and professional?
In this episode, Verena Hefti MBE speaks with Dr. Whitney Casares, paediatrician and author of Doing It All: Stop Over-Functioning and Become the Mom and Person You're Meant to Be to explore why self-care isn’t a luxury but a lifeline for working parents.
Drawing from her expertise as a paediatrician, Dr. Whitney emphasises that putting your own well-being first is the key to raising happy, healthy children - especially those with additional needs.
She tackles the guilt parents often feel when balancing ambitious careers with family life and shares practical strategies for setting boundaries, integrating work and life, and creating space for what truly matters.
This inspiring conversation challenges parents to redefine success and embrace their unique strengths as they navigate their personal and professional journeys.
We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Show Notes:
- Dr. Whitney's book Doing It All is available in bookshops and via Amazon.
- Connect with Dr. Whitney on LinkedIn and on Instagram.
In this episode you will learn:
- Self-care for parents is crucial; taking care of your well-being helps your children.
- Setting boundaries with kids creates a healthier work-life integration for working parents.
- Embracing your authentic self can be a superpower in leadership and career advancement.
- Prioritise clarity in your life by identifying core values and saying no to distractions.
- Integrating work and family life requires intentional moments of focus and presence.
- Delegating tasks and decluttering your environment can significantly reduce stress and increase productivity.
Our multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowships support parents committed to career growth while enjoying family life. Expertly designed to keep parents on the leadership path, our programme tackles gender pay gap issues and empowers parents to thrive. Learn more here: Leaders Plus Fellowship.
Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
More BCSC episodes we think you'll love:
- Nicky Lowe - How to Avoid Burnout as a Working Parent
- Paul J. Sullivan – How to Become a Lead Dad & Parent Out Loudly
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefi. I believe that noone should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male middle class peopleleading our organizations. We must
change this together and Ihope that many of you listening right
now will progress to the mostsenior leadership roles that you
like where you can make thedecisions that make our world a better
(00:44):
place. Outside of the podcast,I am the CEO and founder of the Social
Enterprise Leaders. We existto help working parents progress
their careers to seniorleadership in a way that works for
you and for your families. Wehave free events and resources on
leadersplus.org where you candownload helpful toolkits such as
(01:05):
on returning from maternityleave, share parental leave, securing
a promotion, dealing withworkload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family and and
you are supported by peoplewho are experiencing what you're
experiencing yourself. I'mreally delighted that a larger majority
(01:54):
of our fellows have madetangible changes following the program,
be that becoming more seniorin their roles, working shorter hours,
having better flexible workingarrangement, they always impress
me so much with the couragethat they instill in each other to
do what is right for themwithout apologizing for having a
family or apologizing forwanting that top job. Details are
(02:18):
on leadersplus.org Fellowship.Today I'm chatting to Whitney Casares.
She's a pediatrician and sheargues that for child's health and
wellbeing it's actuallyreally, really important that we
look after our own health andwell being as working parents. And
(02:39):
she's done quite a lot ofresearch on how to actually do that
in the context of a big careerand young children. I really hope
that you take something fromit and enjoy the conversation. A
very warm welcome Whitney tothe Podcast. It's great to have you
with us.
Absolutely. So I am apediatrician by training. I did my
(03:00):
training at Stanford and had agreat experience seeing all kinds
of zebras of the world ofmedicine when I was there, but then
practiced in private practicefor 12 to 13 years, seeing a lot
of bread and butter,pediatrics and working with a lot
of families. And then I alsohave a special degree in maternal
child health. It's a publichealth degree. And that degree is
(03:25):
all about the synergisticrelationship between a mom's wellness
and a kid's wellness. And it'swhat I care about the most in life.
And I have all that experiencefrom seeing lots of patients and
being at big academicinstitutions. But also I have experience
because of my own family. Ihave one daughter who is 11 who has
(03:46):
autism and severe anxiety, andI have a second kiddo who has adhd.
So our household is veryneurospicy. And I have learned how
to really figure out how todivide attention and to triage my
focus and my energy every dayand how to really redefine what matters
(04:09):
for me, what matters for mykids, and how to place a lot more
of my attention, my focus onthose things, while trying to get
everything else done. BecauseI've learned in real world and by
talking to a lot of families,that it's easy to get distracted.
It's easy to allow to let alot of those messages that come in
kind of overwhelm us. So myjob is to help families refocus.
(04:31):
And can you tell me one thingthat you used to believe about combining
a big career with youngchildren that you don't subscribe
to anymore?
Absolutely. I used to believethat I could be everything to everyone.
I used to believe I could doit all. I also used to believe that
I had to be someone else. Ihad to pretend in order to get ahead.
(04:56):
I had to be like a man in aman's world, or I had to lean in
fully, or I had to not be soemotional. And what I've learned
is that the unique parts of meare actually my superpowers and that
when I'm more of myself, myauthentic self, I'm actually able
to do a lot of things andcontribute in a way that is really
(05:17):
special and that actuallyinspires change.
Your work really struck mebecause. So we have, I should probably
say for context, we have acommunity of working parents who
we call fellows, who wesupport with their career progression.
And very often the topic comesup in our discussions that they work
hard in their career, to workhard for their children, but there's
(05:37):
absolutely nothing left forthemselves or for their partner if
they happen to have one. Andthen there's often takes a really
long time for people, peopleto give themselves permission to
put themselves first ahead oftheir children. And I just wonder
whether you have any, any dataor any knowledge that shows why it's
okay to focus on your ownwellbeing. I would quite like to
(06:01):
get some official reassurancefrom the expert.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Ithink that the US Surgeon General
report put it really well interms of the data of what happens
when you don't do that,because I think it's pretty hard
to find data that if you putyourself first, if you take care
of yourself, here's theamazing things that are going to
(06:21):
happen with you and with yourfamily. We do know that from a neurochemistry
standpoint, when a parent isin a regulated state, they're more
easily able to help theirdisregulated child, for example.
So with my kids who have ADHDand autism, if they're having a meltdown,
if I am really stressed, maybefrom my work or from cleaning up
(06:42):
on the house or feelingresentful and giving myself to my
kids all the time, I'm reallynot going to be able to attune to
their needs in a powerful. Sothere is evidence that that is important.
But what I think is even morecompelling is the US Surgeon General's
report that just came out thatTalked about how 47% of parents are
(07:03):
so burnt out and sooverwhelmed that they feel like they
can't function. And so thatpoints to what happens when we actually
don't take care of ourselves.What are the really severe consequences?
And to me, that's enough. Imean, to say, like, because I know
if parents are feeling thatway, there's no way that they could
(07:23):
actually be effective in theirwork or with their kids. And similar
to what you're saying aboutyour fellows, what I hear from working
parents is this concept of Ifeel like I don't have anything more
to give and yet I constantlyfeel like I'm never giving enough.
Like that feeling of I'm doingevery single thing that I can and
(07:46):
somehow I'm still notmeasuring up. Somehow I still feel
like a failure and that's aterrible place from which to operate
is that feeling of not enoughness.
So I understand in theory, butin practice that is so challenging.
What have you learned aboutovercoming that?
So I agree with you. I thinkit's really difficult when really
(08:10):
as an industry, as like a selfcare industry. Because there's lots
of people that talk about selfcare when we talk about self care
as pockets of time or specificthings that we need to do in order
to check off the list thatwe've taken care of ourselves. So
I think that when we tellparents who are already really busy,
what you need to do is take anhour for yourself, what you need
to do is go on a spa retreat,what you need to do is go on a vacation
(08:35):
or not work so hard. I thinkthat that's really difficult because
parents are saying I don'thave the money to do that, I don't
have the time to do that, Idon't have the help to do all those
things. So I really thinkabout self care in a different way.
I think of it more like lesschocolates and bath salts and spa
vacations and more. How do Icreate a life that I don't regularly
(08:59):
want to escape from? How do Iset up my work life integration schema
so that it doesn't feel like Ineed so much restorative repair time
and instead that I'm living ina way that feels like, oh, I feel
pretty good today, I'm notrunning myself ragged every single
day. I think that that's amore realistic approach for a lot
(09:21):
of families and it's one thatdoesn't cost as much money and it's
one that doesn't require asmany coping skills over time. Here's
one example of that. I wasrecently about to take on a full
time position at a telehealthcompany. I've been doing contractor
work with them and I've beenchoosing some of my own hours and
it worked pretty well for meand they offered me the full time
(09:44):
position and I said yesbecause I am a recovering do it all-er.
And of course my initialreaction was of course I can take
on more, no problem. Well,once I finally got the schedule for
the hours that I would beworking, I was going to have to be
up at 3:00 in the morning, beup at 4:00 in the morning. Some days
I was going to have to work intwo hour little shifts. I was going
(10:07):
to have to go pick my kids upfrom school and then come home and
immediately start workingwhile my kids were here in their
rooms on screens when I didn'thave any time with them. And after
I saw the schedule, I thoughtthis is not going to be sustainable
for us. This is going to be alife that I want to escape from.
I Can't do it. And I had tomake a choice for my family to say,
(10:29):
am I going to subscribe tothis? Is this what I'm going to do?
Or am I going to decide that?Nope, I will find other ways to make
money. I will find a differentjob. I will find a different situation
that actually works better forme and my family. And I had to tell
this organization. They werevery mad at me that I backed out.
(10:49):
But I knew that this is theright thing for my inner peace, for
me to not have a stomach achein the middle of the night, for me
to be able to not create evenmore problems with my neuro spicy
kids, where now they wouldfeel more anxious, where now they
would feel more emotional,where now I'd have to pay more money
for them to go to therapy totake care of this issue, of me abandoning
(11:10):
them in the middle of the day,you know? So to me, that's what it's
about, is making choices thatare in alignment with you, feeling
at peace with yourself, atpeace with your values, at peace
with your decisions over time.
Interesting. I guess thetension that comes to my mind is
that the listeners of thispodcast, I think many of them are
(11:32):
really passionate about theircareer progression and will want
to excel at work. And Isometimes I might cut this out because
it might come out wrong, but Ithink sometimes there is a tension
between working really focusedon that career progression goal.
There's almost a feeling ofguilt of why are you not just prioritizing,
making sure that you arenicely balanced by the time the kids
(11:54):
are at home and not checkingemails at the school gate just before
the kids come out?
Yeah.
What's your reflection onmanaging that tension between your
ambitions and your hopes foryour career and looking after yourself
enough so that you are present?
Yeah, exactly. I am atremendously ambitious person. I
have so much ambition. I wantto write more books. I've written
(12:14):
three books. I have likeanother book that's coming down the
pike, you know, this nextyear. I have ideas for one after
that. Like I want to besuccessful career wise. So I think
there's nothing wrong withthat at all. And I think the word
that you use that I think isproblematic is balance. I think that
when people are striving forthat perfect balance at all times
(12:37):
at the same moment, that'sreally where that tension comes.
Like, I know that again, goingback to this job thing, if I had
been trying to be fullyfocused on my patients as I was seeing
them in a telehealth settingand my kids were home, and I was
supposed to be keeping my kidsoff screens and paying attention
to their art projects and allthat. At the exact same time, it
(12:58):
would never work. So what Iteach women to do and what I want
to encourage women to do is tothink more about how do I have integration.
So how do I know when is theright moment to push really hard
into work and to say to mykids, you know what? Mommy's going
to be gone. I'll be on a worktrip. You're right. I won't be here
with you guys, and I'll missyou tremendously. Here's how I'm
(13:21):
going to set you up so thatthat way, people who love and care
about you will be with you.And then when I come back, you use
the other word, presence. Iwill be present with you because
I will have, like, I'm goingto dive into work for this moment,
and then I'm going to comeback and I'm going to dive into you
for this moment, and then I'lldive back into work in the other
way. So to me, that's how Ifound a lot more peace, is choosing
(13:44):
strategies that allow me toreally be more present with my work
or with my children. The otherthing I want to say, and I know this
is going to sound a little bitcontroversial, but sometimes I kind
of resent my kids for holdingme back from my career ambitions.
Sometimes I feel like if thesekids weren't here, I would be able
(14:04):
to be the CEO of this companyand I would be able to rise to the
highest ranks. And you guysare annoying me, honestly, that you're
here and you're taking up kindof my time and my brain space. And
this isn't true for everyone,but it is true for most people that,
who are working moms andworking parents, that I chose to
be a parent, I chose to havekids. And so whenever I feel that
(14:29):
way, I remind myself of that.Like, I chose this. It's because
I wanted the joy of family, Iwanted the joy of connectedness.
And so the world is probablynot going to set up all of its systems
and its policies in 2024 tofully support me in that endeavor.
I wish that they would. Itwould be awesome if they would. I
(14:49):
advocate with my vote and withmy petitions that I sign for it to
be more that way. But in themeantime, like, I have choices to
make about making sure that Iprioritize my kids and my work in
an integrated fashion. Andit's my own choice that I chose to
do both things. So I know thatthat might come off as a little bit
(15:10):
controversial, but I think itactually is important that we remember
that like that. Of coursethere's tension. We're trying to
do two jobs at the same time.Of course there is. And we live in
a world where we don't havethe support or the structure that
we need to do it well. Like wehaven't caught up to what our needs
are of working moms.
I agree. Now, you've trainedfor a number of years on how to make
(15:31):
sure that children are healthyand well. I know you're not child
psychiatrist, but I'm justinterested for those moments where
you do want to prioritizework. What is your reflection about
how you best set boundarieswith the children? Because the children
may. They might not quitesubscribe to this idea of work life
integration. They might wantyou when they want you.
Yeah, 100%. And actually in mymost recent book, I talk about this
(15:56):
as one of the six ways thatyou do prioritize your kids. Because
I don't think you need to bewith your kids 24, 7 and that you
need to be like holding theirhand for every school drop off and
all that. Boundaries. Settingboundaries is a really important
part of helping our kids togrow and thrive and also for us as
working moms to grow andthrive. And so a lot of setting boundaries
(16:19):
with kids is settingexpectations beforehand and giving
our kids expectations and anunderstanding of what's going to
happen. It's always temptingto me to want to run out the door
and go, I'm leaving for a worktrip because I don't want to deal
with the emotions or deal withall the feelings that I have and
that my kids have and theguilt. But the reality is my kids
know well in advance where I'mgoing, for how long I'll be gone,
(16:42):
what's happening, who's goingto be taking care of them. That makes
a huge difference. They also,at this age, they're 8 and 11. They,
I think, deserve to understandthe why behind what I do, what I
do. You know, why I do what Ido. They need to understand. So Mommy
is an author. Mommy sellsbooks. Mommy speaks. The only way
(17:04):
that I sell books is to get infront of audiences is to go and sign
books with other people. Welive in a house. They don't want
to move from this house. Theylove this house. The way that we
live in this house is thatMommy has a job. Mommy makes money
at that job. That money paysfor your little ride on car that
you got the other day, youknow, like for your birthday, like
(17:25):
this is the way kind of thatthe world works in terms of work.
So I think that at this agethat's important and that's boundary
setting for me is like to havethem understand this is what it is.
When I'm at home, in theoffice, I try to set really clear
visual boundaries. And this isimportant for my kids who are neurodiverse
because a lot of times theycan kind of feel emotional or kind
(17:46):
of not be paying attention asclosely to what my verbal instructions
are. So I have a stop signthat's on my door. So they know that
if I was recording a podcast,for example, that this is a time
not to enter. Mommy is busy atwork. I do a lot of that. I'll even
write them a note before I gointo a meeting saying I will be done
(18:08):
in 30 minutes. Until then, myexpectation is that you don't come
bother me because afterwardI'm excited to be with you. I also
really strongly advise forparents in terms of setting boundaries,
that when you're going to dothat, that if you can, that you front
load your attention and yourenergy on your kids before you go
to do your work thing. So ifyou're working from home and you
(18:29):
have a meeting, that you arewith your kids playing, giving them
a lot of one on one time,fully present with them as much as
possible for five minutesdoesn't have to be a super long period
of time, but that your kidsaren't waiting, waiting, waiting,
waiting, waiting for yourattention. That instead that you've
given them a lot of attentionand then you go and you do your work
thing. That tends to workbetter, especially for younger kids
(18:52):
as they get older. You canexplain more about how you're going
to go do this fun thingafterward or they're going to have
your attention afterward. Butwhen they're young, that helps to
kind of fill their buckets, aswe like to say in pediatrics, so
that they're not waiting andwaiting and waiting for mommy to
be with them or give them sometime. And if you can make it something
that's active and that allowsthem to run around and do all kinds
of things, that's that's evenbetter. The other way that we teach
(19:14):
our kids boundaries is byhelping them be a part of community
in our house, that mommydoesn't pick up all your toys, you
pick up your toys. So whilemommy's in this meeting, this is
your job. Mommy's going to herjob, you're going to your Job, which
is to your room to go pick upyour toys or to go do your work.
You're giving me the. You'regiving me the eye. Like that doesn't
(19:35):
work in your house.
I'm just saying. Well, eitheryou are just a super parent or I
don't quite believe that it'salways exactly like that.
Oh, it doesn't always exactlywork like that. Absolutely not. But
I have found that even thesaying, mommy is going to do her
work. And so this is your workright now. And once we do all those
(19:55):
things, we're going to have alot of fun together. Even if they
don't pick up any of the toys,it stops the whining in my house
to have it be like, oh, okay,I have an understanding. This is
what this time is for, is foreither playing or for doing my work
as a kid. And this is what mytime is for, is for working. I don't
expect my kids to have aperfectly clean room when I come
out of a meeting. And theydon't always. But I do think sometimes
(20:18):
when they have a task thatthey have choices of doing that that
helps significantly. And itdoes in my house, for sure.
Interesting. I just want to goon a side tangent, which is you're
writing books. And in my mind,that's something that requires deep
work. And for many workingparents, it's really tough to get
that deep work time becausethere's more stuff crammed into it.
(20:41):
You get all these messagesabout how you're a super multitasker
and so you feel you should bemultitasking all the time. I'm just
interested. How do youpractically carve out time for deep
work? Because for me, that isself care. If I don't have deep work,
I get really jittery.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.Me too. So I think there's one important
caveat here for me, which is,and hopefully for most people, their
(21:02):
deep work or things that theylove. But I love writing, so writing
doesn't feel like a chore tome. So when I get to do it, I actually
feel like, oh, I'm in thepocket, I'm in a flow. I love what
I'm doing. I don't always likeediting, but I love writing. So it
doesn't feel like somethingthat I have to pull myself out of
bed to do if given theopportunity. I would always love
(21:24):
to do that type of deep work.So I have to say that first. But
I actually have a verypractical solution for this. The
way that I divide my time andthis is on anything. Every single
day is I divide my day and mycalendar into projects and into responsibilities.
And I consider deep work aproject versus responsibilities are
(21:45):
things like I need to do thelaundry or I need to answer that
email or I need to pay thatbill or I need to make a quick phone
call to somebody. That's thething. So the little like to do's
on our to do list and I alwayswill pick one or two projects that
I want to make sure that Imake momentum on in a day first and
then I will schedule those onthe calendar in larger blocks of
(22:08):
my workday and then I willhave other responsibilities that
I'll fit in in between thoseprojects. And I find that I am much
more efficient with theresponsibilities once I've done the
deep work and once I feel likeI've gotten something meaningful.
Meaningful accomplish. Becauseto your point about feeling jittery,
I also feel very jittery if Idon't do anything that feels meaningful
(22:31):
in a day. So if I'm like, ohmy gosh, I feel so accomplished.
I just wrote a chapter, I justreviewed someone else's manuscript
for the day. Wow, I feel sogreat. I can really cross that off
my list. Then it's easy for meto go pay that bill, call that person,
do all those little things.And in your mind you have to, I think,
have a realistic expectationthat most of us have too many things
(22:54):
in our to do list. They'reprobably not going to get done in
a day. So that's how I, that'show I organize my days. And there
are some days where, okay,I've worked on deep work on projects
for two days in a row. I havesome responsibilities that have piled
up that need to get done thathaven't. And I'll say, okay, this
is not a project day. This isa straight just going through my
(23:14):
checklist, getting everysingle thing done. That's a responsibility
so that I can knock all thatstuff out and get back to the deep
work. But that's how I do it.
Thank you so much for sharing.Self care is sometimes easy when
everything works as planned.But the problem is all too often
there are things outside ofour control. There's perhaps the
workplace that suddenly callseverybody back to the office for
(23:38):
three days a week. Or perhapsa child who suddenly has a long term
additional need or a long termdisability where they need tons of
medical appointments for. Whatare your reflections on looking after
yourself in those situations?
Yeah, well, I'm intimatelyacquainted with this idea of things
not going perfectly. I thinkOne of the things that I really find
(23:59):
troublesome in kind of theself care world and also in the women's
empowerment movement I guesswould be the right thing to call
it is this idea of likemanifesting or envisioning your absolute
perfect world and then goingout and getting it and believing
in yourself and doing otherthings. I think I'm too grounded
in reality for that to be howI live my life. You know, my kids
(24:22):
have meltdowns every singleday. My house inevitably, like the
dishwasher breaks as you're,as you're trying to clean up the
kitchen. Like things justaren't perfect and I don't expect
them to be. So I think that'sone thing is that getting your expectations
in line with reality when itcomes to how much time you're going
to have for self care or whatlife looks like is really important.
(24:46):
A lot of psychologists callthat radical acceptance of like this
is how my world is. These arethe people that surround me. Okay,
deep breath. Now I can kind ofgo into the world and do what I need
to do. The other thing is ofcourse I try to make time for things
like yoga. That's one thatreally grounds me because I'm moving
and I'm also like getting alittle more quiet and being outside
(25:10):
that's really helpful to me. Ifind that for both of those things,
even if I only have 10 minutesof it, it makes a huge impact on
me. So I don't need a hugetime commitment for it. And I can
do it even if my world is kindof going crazy. So even if my kids
are acting a fool, as long asthere's somebody who can watch them
for 10 minutes or I can throwthem on a screen for 10 minutes and
I can go do that, it brings meback in a much more regulated state
(25:32):
and I can kind of handlethings a lot better. But I think
the other deeper parts of selfcare that we don't always think about
are actually what's the mostrestorative to me and does more of
that preventative work. So oneis mindful self compassion and tuning
into what my feelings andneeds are. So when I start to feel
really anxious, reallyagitated, really jittery in my mind,
(25:56):
I try my hardest to stop andcatch myself and try to identify
what is the feeling that I'mhappy having right now? Is it guilt?
Is it I'm anxious aboutsomething? Is it I feel sad, is it
I feel regretful? What is itthat's going on? Okay, so name the
emotion, validate it becauseusually there's a pretty good reason
(26:18):
why. Okay, there was just ahuge election yesterday and it didn't
go the way I wanted it to go.Okay, well, that makes sense. I'm
probably going to feel prettyanxious today and pretty down today
and then have some commonhumanity around it. So I bet I could
fill a coliseum full of peoplethat feel the exact same way. I bet
that in this moment when Ifeel anxious because even though
(26:40):
I had the stop sign on thedoor, my child did walk in during
the podcast interview andinterrupted me. And I feel like agitated
and guilty that I'm not payingattention to her and kind of embarrassed
with this person who'sinterviewing me. Okay, yeah, that
makes sense. And a lot ofother people would feel that same
way. And what that does whenwe give ourselves that mindful self
(27:01):
compassion, is it slows ournervous system down. So it allows
us to go from fight or flightwhere everything we do in our lives
is really reactive to beingmuch more responsive. And so it allows
us to take care of our needsin a much more effective manner.
So, for example, if my kiddowas coming in here right now and
(27:23):
interrupting and doing all thethings, I can then make a much more
mindful decision about whatneeds to happen in that moment. And
that decision might bedifferent depending on the situation.
So it might be if you and Iare having a friendly chat and it's
a meeting and we're notrecording something, we wouldn't
have to redo this later. Itmight be that I say, hey, you know
(27:43):
what? My kiddo, she's beensick. This has been a thing for like
three days. I'm sorry, I gottareschedule. This is just not working,
you know, for me today. Andit's not on you, it's not on me,
this, you know, kids, hey,right? Or it might be that I say
to my child, who is doingperfectly fine, I've given her tons
of attention the wholemorning. She just really wants my
attention. Now that I say,okay, pause, I go talk to her and
(28:06):
say, I've told you alreadythat I'm doing work. I will be back
to you. I love you very much.I'll be back with you later. And
I close the door and I lockit, right? Like that might be the
decision that I make or thething that I need might be. Okay,
I'm just going to pause andtake a deep breath and drink a sip
of my coffee before we keep ontalking because I feel agitated.
(28:27):
to me, that is the ultimatein self care is like paying Attention
to my needs, paying attentionto my feelings, and that allows me
then to decide in that momenthow am I going to respond, and also
to make the best decisionspossible for work, life integration
in the future. It might bethat I say, you know what, that didn't
(28:48):
work well to have it be on aday off of school that my kids were
here and I decided I was goingto schedule a podcast, but never
again. I'm not doing thatagain. That's a decision I'm not
going to make. And it doesn'tsolve every single problem. You might
have kids, that they're sick,you get called from school, like
life happens. But it does makeit so that, let's say, 70% of the
(29:08):
time you can make betterdecisions about your time management,
about how you're going toarrange things in a way that doesn't
constantly put you at oddswith your kids and your work.
That's very true. One thingI've been thinking a lot about is
this tension between masteryand taking rest. Because a lot of
our fellows, and I'm surequite a few of our listeners, have
(29:29):
always enjoyed excelling andthey like to be some really good
at their job and they want tothrive in their career. But I think
especially when you're used todoing this, it's hard to make a decision.
So even if you notice, I amexhausted and actually all I need
is just an afternoon where Ilie down. It is really tough to make
that decision without feelingthat you are failing. I'm just interested
(29:53):
in. Sorry. I feel like I'masking you all these psychologist
questions, but...
No, well, the book ends upbeing a lot of psychologist questions.
Here's the reason why. And Iam that same exact way. Okay, so
part of it might be ourwiring. People who want to excel
tend to be people who are alittle bit more Type A. They may
be a little bit more nervousenergy. Like I have anxiety myself,
(30:15):
of course. Like, it's hard forme to rest, is hard for me to slow
down. Also, we have all theconditioning from society, especially
American society, that saysthe more you do, the more valuable
you are. So, of course, themore you do, the more accolades we
get, the more we want to do.Lastly, we've been exercising that
muscle of doing, doing, doing.And so when we slow down, it feels
(30:38):
really uncomfortable. Like itfeels like an attack on our body
almost to slow down. Myhusband and I used to joke that when
we went on vacation that Ibecame like the worst version of
myself. I would pick fightsbecause I needed some type of input.
And so I would get itpositively or negatively. However,
(31:00):
it just made me feel terribleto be on vacation. I hated it. Like
in Hawaii, sitting on a beach.I could not do that. So the way to
help yourself with that verynormal feeling of wanting to go,
go, go, go, go, feeling guiltyabout rest, feeling terrible when
we're resting, is to exerciseit in small quantities, just like
(31:20):
you would if you're startingto exercise. So if you were starting
to lift weights, you wouldn'tgo with the 50 pound weights first
you would lift a 3 poundweight and then you would go for
a 10 pound weight. If you'retrying to exercise this muscle, you
might practice. Okay. Insteadof moving on to the next meeting
without a break, I'm going topractice going and getting a glass
of water in between and havingfive minutes in between instead of
(31:42):
moving quickly to the nextmeeting like that is exercising that
muscle. It might be. I'm goingto close my eyes for 10 seconds before
I jump on that next call. So Ithink that's the way that you start
to get more comfortable withtaking breaks and then again giving
yourself so much compassionfor when you do feel like, I feel
terrible when I'm resting, Ifeel like I shouldn't rest. I feel
(32:04):
like I haven't done enough torest as you practice and as you get
better and better and betterat the skill of resting. The other
thing for my competitive typeA fellow moms and parents who are
out there, is if you thinkabout it also as you're building
a skill and you want to havemastery over rest, sometimes that
helps too. So sometimes if I'mlike, oh, I'm going to get so good
(32:27):
at rest, I'm going to be likethe best at rest. Sometimes that
helps me because, you know,it's like a reverse psychology where
you're actually doing thething that's really great for you,
but you're still using thatcompetitive edge that you have to
do it and it ends up with thesame result.
That's a really, that's areally good reframe. I couldn't agree
more. I think there issomething also to be said about the
(32:48):
fact that when you do makethose choices and rest in particular,
and taking breaks, it's shownto create better output. So I know
I'm coming back to theproductivity argument, but actually,
if you want to excel, if youwant to be a Nobel Prize winner,
you definitely need to to dosomething that isn't connected to
your field of research thatmakes you think in different ways.
(33:09):
Exactly.
And I think the Rest is agender. I mean, I can't remember
where I read this. I'm suremaybe it was on a different podcast
episode, but actually there'sa gender issue, isn't there, with
men and women not having thesame amount of time to rest?
Oh, well, yes. I mean, forsure. Yeah. The mental load and the
fact that we are doing it allin our families. I mean there's a
whole thing about the likemarried single mom phenomenon and
(33:31):
how a lot of women aredivorcing their, their husbands because
they're like, why? It's justan extra child who I basically have
to take care of. I'm doingeverything anyway. Right. Like moms
are, I think, wired toovercompensate and do as a, from
a societal standpoint, justbecause that's how our very patriarchal
society is set up, that a lotof women are working and doing the
(33:54):
second shift of taking care oftheir homes 100%. The other thing
I wanted to say to your pointabout it, building productivity,
I want to just like invitepeople also to do this whole rest
and work thing on their ownterms because I think a lot of times
people say like, oh well,don't push too hard because then
you're going to burn yourselfout and then you're going to have
(34:16):
to take rest at a time that'sinconvenient. Sure. But there are
times where I want to go takea red eye to get to a conference
to sign books and then go havea meeting with somebody important
and then fly immediately homeso that way I can be with my kid
to take her to her camp sendoff thing. And then for the next
(34:36):
two days I'm gonna do likenothing. I'm gonna be on the couch,
I'm gonna watch Taylor Swifteras tour concert videos on Netflix.
Like that's gonna be what Ido. And that's okay. If that's your
version of rest is like workreally, really hard and then play
really hard. Like that's okaytoo. I, I think we have to throw
out some of these rules of ithas to be that you're only nine to
(34:58):
five and you set reallyspecific hours around when you respond
to your emails. Like I lovegetting caught up on emails at 11:00
at night. That's my favoritething to do. But that's because then
the next morning I want to gotake a walk and not have to do any
work in the morning. Like it'sall about when is your energy the
best and what allows you tofunction at your optimal speed and
(35:21):
efficiency. You just have toremember to not always be go, go,
go, go, go to give yourselfsome of that rest in a way that works
for you.
Yeah, that resonates. I havenow got a very strict on work off
work life also because I dowork from home quite a lot. But I
actually absolutely loveworking late at night. It's a secret
(35:44):
pleasure of mine and I veryrarely allow myself, you know, when
you just. Sorry, I shouldn'tbe saying this but it is so true.
And my partner is brilliant atholding me to account and will even
now we're recording thispodcast between five and six and
usually I finish a quarter tosix or something. It's like, why
are you working until sixo'clock? I was like, it's, you know,
a US podcast You know, Idon't want to make them get up so
(36:05):
early in the morning and. AndI think there is something. Yeah,
but there is somethingbeautiful. Like I might give myself
permission to do some ofthose. Especially if it's the deep
work that you enjoy.
Yeah, exactly. The deep work.Yeah, like, because then your brain
isn't full of other things. Iwrite a lot at night. Like I write.
I love writing at 10 o'clockat night or midnight or 1 o'clock
(36:26):
in the morning. Like that'swhen my brain works. So why deny
ourselves that pleasure? But Ithink it is about like you're saying
then you have to remember totake the break later because it's
easy I think for those of uswho over function to then just keep
on going and never take thebreak. You know, just keep on working
then a 9 to 5 the next day. So.
Yeah, yeah, that's very true.And remind me of the title of your
(36:50):
most latest or next book.
Yeah, the book is called Doingit All. Stop over functioning and
become the mom and person youare meant to be.
Lovely. I think the bit therethat really resonates with me is
to stop doing and I think thatin a way that is the hardest thing
because also again I'm. I loveexcelling. I really, I want to excel.
(37:12):
I'm super ambitious still. ButI think it's the choice on what you
focus on because anyway that'swhat sits behind it, isn't it? You
have to choose. Like for you,it sounds like it is the books you
have decided to become anauthor and you are an author. But
how do you make those choicesthat then allow you to let go of
other stuff? Do you have anyreflections on that?
Yeah, great question. Yes, Iactually think this is the crux of
(37:35):
the book, I think, especiallyfor women, again, because of all
the conditioning that wetalked about, because of the polls
on our attention, becausesociety is not fair, we have a tendency
to do it all. And we have ahard time saying no to anything,
to setting those boundaries.And so what I know is that women
(37:56):
have to say to know what theywant to say yes to first. So in the
book, I actually help peopledefine what are the five core, what
I call center points that youwant to say yes to in your life?
What are the things that alignwith your personal values, with your
personal giftings, with yourpersonal things that light you up,
(38:19):
that give you joy, that youfeel so happy with when you're doing
deep work? What are thosethings? And they're a mix usually
of career things and ofpersonal family things and of individual
things. Like, I have on mylist travel and music. I get so lit
up. I'm so happy in a JazzClub at 1 o'clock in the morning
in New Orleans listening to,like, live music, that I could be
(38:42):
there for one hour. And thatfills my soul for a whole month.
I'm like, happy just thinkingabout it or watching a Vince Vaughn
film, like a comedy thing.Like, that's the other thing that,
like, lights me up, right? Soeverybody has their things that they
want to say yes to, but wehave to understand those things deeply.
And not just on a surfacelevel. Like, I love travel and I
(39:02):
love music, but more like thething that I want to invest my time
and money in is traveling toamazing places, seeing the best artists
in a live music capacity. Ormy career thing is I want to contribute
to women via speaking andwriting about work, life integration.
(39:23):
Like, that's a very specificthing that I'm always saying yes
to. If someone comes at me foran interview and says, hey, I want
to talk about potty trainingfor kids, because you're a pediatrician,
like, sure, that goes alongkind of with kids thriving and moms
thriving. But unless it's theNew York Times that wants to ask
me about that, I haveabsolutely no interest in spending
(39:45):
my time answering interviewquestions about that. Like, that's
a total waste of my time. Andso I help people to figure out what
are those things they want tosay yes to so that way they can get
the rest of it done without itdefining them. And I think that really
is the difference. It's abouttriaging kind of in your mind these
things I have to give myattention to. Because otherwise,
(40:06):
when I'm 80, I'm going to lookback on my life and feel so disappointed
that I didn't do what I wasput on this earth to do. I don't
want that for anybody becauseI know that's kind of the ultimate
in a mess in our lives.
Very philosophical. So we'recoming towards the end of our podcast
time together, sadly, and weusually finish with some practical
(40:28):
things. So I'm interested-You've obviously spent quite a bit
of time writing, researching,thinking about this book, and I'm
wondering if there are anypractical things that you have changed
in your own life as a resultthat you would like to pass on to
the listeners.
Yes. So one is decluttering,one is trying to think about where
(40:50):
in your physical space and onyour calendar too. But let's talk
about physical space. Forpractical reasons, you can get rid
of things that you have totake care of because that is the
ultimate time and energy suckis having it so that you're constantly
picking up, putting away,cleaning, that type of thing. So
(41:11):
that is one total life hackthat I live by. Like a Marie Kondo.
You can do whatever method youwant. I don't care. I talk about
a method in the book, but itdoesn't matter what method you use
to just basically simplifyyour environment so that you have
less you have to take care of,because we all have enough we have
to take care of. So if I wasto give you one practical piece of
advice, it would be once aquarter, go through with a trash
(41:33):
bag or a couple trash bags,throw some stuff away, give it to
Goodwill, give it to a friend.Like just get rid of stuff, because
the stuff is what you're goingto drown in. So I think that's number
one. Number two is decidingwhat things you can give away to
other people. People, whatthings you can delegate to other
(41:54):
people on your to do list.That also takes away a lot of the
stress and strain. And as apractical strategy, I want to invite
people to focus on technologyfirst because I know that feels like
it's not a person, but hey,the more AI comes around it kind
of as a person. So what aretwo things that you could give to
(42:14):
other people or to technologythat would take the stress off you?
Mine is grocery shopping. Ilove to go to a grocery store and
pick out fun little treats,but I hate to go to the grocery store
and pick out milk and orangejuice. So I use Instacart. I order
all that stuff online. I havea running shopping list and I just
order it and they come bringit to me. Yes, it costs an extra
(42:34):
$10 but it gives me a lot ofpeace of mind, a lot of time, a lot
less energy spent. So that's agreat example of using technology.
There's also a great appcalled Maple Grow Maple and I don't
like getting the affiliatemoney for them. It's just a good
app that helps people toorganize what are their to dos and
helps with calendar remindersand things like that. So anything
(42:56):
that you can offload to appsor to technology that will help you
get things done faster andwithout you putting in as much effort,
those are the two majorstrategies, decluttering and delegating.
Wonderful. Thank you so muchfor sharing. And if people want to
find out more about you or ifthey want to read your books, where
should they go? Can you just.Sorry for my memory, but can you
just remind people of thetitle again?
(43:18):
Of course, yeah. So the titleis doing it all. Stop over functioning
and become the mom and personyou're meant to be. It's available
wherever books are sold.Amazon is the easiest. It's on audiobook,
there's an ebook and there'salso a paperback book. And in the
back of the book I put aworking mom discussion guide. So
if you want to talk about itwith other moms, which I think is
(43:38):
an amazing way to do itbecause as we're saying, there's
lots of struggles. You got tofigure out kind of the strategies
that work for you and thatdon't work for you. And then I'm@modernmommydoc.com
is my website and the easiestplace to find me on the Internet
is odurnmommydoc on Instagram.I hang out there a lot. And then
Whitney Caceres is my LinkedInprofile and you know, I do more academic
(44:02):
researchy things on LinkedInas we do and we have a lot of fun
on Instagram just to keep it alittle bit spontaneous over there.
Wonderful. Thank you so muchfor joining us.
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Verena Hefti and I'd be delighted
(44:25):
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpar passionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment
(44:46):
and most of the top chartingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast our fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same, then please head over to
leadersclass.org/Fellowship inorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combineambitious career with young children
(45:10):
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefi. I believe that noone should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male middle class peopleleading our organizations. We must
change this together and Ihope that many of you listening right
now will progress to the mostsenior leadership roles that you
like where you can make thedecisions that make our world a better
(00:44):
place. Outside of the podcast,I am the CEO and founder of the Social
Enterprise Leaders. We existto help working parents progress
their careers to seniorleadership in a way that works for
you and for your families. Wehave free events and resources on
leadersplus.org where you candownload helpful toolkits such as
(01:05):
on returning from maternityleave, share parental leave, securing
a promotion, dealing withworkload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family and and
you are supported by peoplewho are experiencing what you're
experiencing yourself. I'mreally delighted that a larger majority
(01:54):
of our fellows have madetangible changes following the program,
be that becoming more seniorin their roles, working shorter hours,
having better flexible workingarrangement, they always impress
me so much with the couragethat they instill in each other to
do what is right for themwithout apologizing for having a
family or apologizing forwanting that top job. Details are
(02:18):
on leadersplus.org Fellowship.Today I'm chatting to Whitney Casares.
She's a pediatrician and sheargues that for child's health and
wellbeing it's actuallyreally, really important that we
look after our own health andwell being as working parents. And
(02:39):
she's done quite a lot ofresearch on how to actually do that
in the context of a big careerand young children. I really hope
that you take something fromit and enjoy the conversation. A
very warm welcome Whitney tothe Podcast. It's great to have you
with us.
Absolutely. So I am apediatrician by training. I did my
(03:00):
training at Stanford and had agreat experience seeing all kinds
of zebras of the world ofmedicine when I was there, but then
practiced in private practicefor 12 to 13 years, seeing a lot
of bread and butter,pediatrics and working with a lot
of families. And then I alsohave a special degree in maternal
child health. It's a publichealth degree. And that degree is
(03:25):
all about the synergisticrelationship between a mom's wellness
and a kid's wellness. And it'swhat I care about the most in life.
And I have all that experiencefrom seeing lots of patients and
being at big academicinstitutions. But also I have experience
because of my own family. Ihave one daughter who is 11 who has
(03:46):
autism and severe anxiety, andI have a second kiddo who has adhd.
So our household is veryneurospicy. And I have learned how
to really figure out how todivide attention and to triage my
focus and my energy every dayand how to really redefine what matters
(04:09):
for me, what matters for mykids, and how to place a lot more
of my attention, my focus onthose things, while trying to get
everything else done. BecauseI've learned in real world and by
talking to a lot of families,that it's easy to get distracted.
It's easy to allow to let alot of those messages that come in
kind of overwhelm us. So myjob is to help families refocus.
(04:31):
And can you tell me one thingthat you used to believe about combining
a big career with youngchildren that you don't subscribe
to anymore?
Absolutely. I used to believethat I could be everything to everyone.
I used to believe I could doit all. I also used to believe that
I had to be someone else. Ihad to pretend in order to get ahead.
(04:56):
I had to be like a man in aman's world, or I had to lean in
fully, or I had to not be soemotional. And what I've learned
is that the unique parts of meare actually my superpowers and that
when I'm more of myself, myauthentic self, I'm actually able
to do a lot of things andcontribute in a way that is really
(05:17):
special and that actuallyinspires change.
Your work really struck mebecause. So we have, I should probably
say for context, we have acommunity of working parents who
we call fellows, who wesupport with their career progression.
And very often the topic comesup in our discussions that they work
hard in their career, to workhard for their children, but there's
(05:37):
absolutely nothing left forthemselves or for their partner if
they happen to have one. Andthen there's often takes a really
long time for people, peopleto give themselves permission to
put themselves first ahead oftheir children. And I just wonder
whether you have any, any dataor any knowledge that shows why it's
okay to focus on your ownwellbeing. I would quite like to
(06:01):
get some official reassurancefrom the expert.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Ithink that the US Surgeon General
report put it really well interms of the data of what happens
when you don't do that,because I think it's pretty hard
to find data that if you putyourself first, if you take care
of yourself, here's theamazing things that are going to
(06:21):
happen with you and with yourfamily. We do know that from a neurochemistry
standpoint, when a parent isin a regulated state, they're more
easily able to help theirdisregulated child, for example.
So with my kids who have ADHDand autism, if they're having a meltdown,
if I am really stressed, maybefrom my work or from cleaning up
(06:42):
on the house or feelingresentful and giving myself to my
kids all the time, I'm reallynot going to be able to attune to
their needs in a powerful. Sothere is evidence that that is important.
But what I think is even morecompelling is the US Surgeon General's
report that just came out thatTalked about how 47% of parents are
(07:03):
so burnt out and sooverwhelmed that they feel like they
can't function. And so thatpoints to what happens when we actually
don't take care of ourselves.What are the really severe consequences?
And to me, that's enough. Imean, to say, like, because I know
if parents are feeling thatway, there's no way that they could
(07:23):
actually be effective in theirwork or with their kids. And similar
to what you're saying aboutyour fellows, what I hear from working
parents is this concept of Ifeel like I don't have anything more
to give and yet I constantlyfeel like I'm never giving enough.
Like that feeling of I'm doingevery single thing that I can and
(07:46):
somehow I'm still notmeasuring up. Somehow I still feel
like a failure and that's aterrible place from which to operate
is that feeling of not enoughness.
So I understand in theory, butin practice that is so challenging.
What have you learned aboutovercoming that?
So I agree with you. I thinkit's really difficult when really
(08:10):
as an industry, as like a selfcare industry. Because there's lots
of people that talk about selfcare when we talk about self care
as pockets of time or specificthings that we need to do in order
to check off the list thatwe've taken care of ourselves. So
I think that when we tellparents who are already really busy,
what you need to do is take anhour for yourself, what you need
to do is go on a spa retreat,what you need to do is go on a vacation
(08:35):
or not work so hard. I thinkthat that's really difficult because
parents are saying I don'thave the money to do that, I don't
have the time to do that, Idon't have the help to do all those
things. So I really thinkabout self care in a different way.
I think of it more like lesschocolates and bath salts and spa
vacations and more. How do Icreate a life that I don't regularly
(08:59):
want to escape from? How do Iset up my work life integration schema
so that it doesn't feel like Ineed so much restorative repair time
and instead that I'm living ina way that feels like, oh, I feel
pretty good today, I'm notrunning myself ragged every single
day. I think that that's amore realistic approach for a lot
(09:21):
of families and it's one thatdoesn't cost as much money and it's
one that doesn't require asmany coping skills over time. Here's
one example of that. I wasrecently about to take on a full
time position at a telehealthcompany. I've been doing contractor
work with them and I've beenchoosing some of my own hours and
it worked pretty well for meand they offered me the full time
(09:44):
position and I said yesbecause I am a recovering do it all-er.
And of course my initialreaction was of course I can take
on more, no problem. Well,once I finally got the schedule for
the hours that I would beworking, I was going to have to be
up at 3:00 in the morning, beup at 4:00 in the morning. Some days
I was going to have to work intwo hour little shifts. I was going
(10:07):
to have to go pick my kids upfrom school and then come home and
immediately start workingwhile my kids were here in their
rooms on screens when I didn'thave any time with them. And after
I saw the schedule, I thoughtthis is not going to be sustainable
for us. This is going to be alife that I want to escape from.
I Can't do it. And I had tomake a choice for my family to say,
(10:29):
am I going to subscribe tothis? Is this what I'm going to do?
Or am I going to decide that?Nope, I will find other ways to make
money. I will find a differentjob. I will find a different situation
that actually works better forme and my family. And I had to tell
this organization. They werevery mad at me that I backed out.
(10:49):
But I knew that this is theright thing for my inner peace, for
me to not have a stomach achein the middle of the night, for me
to be able to not create evenmore problems with my neuro spicy
kids, where now they wouldfeel more anxious, where now they
would feel more emotional,where now I'd have to pay more money
for them to go to therapy totake care of this issue, of me abandoning
(11:10):
them in the middle of the day,you know? So to me, that's what it's
about, is making choices thatare in alignment with you, feeling
at peace with yourself, atpeace with your values, at peace
with your decisions over time.
Interesting. I guess thetension that comes to my mind is
that the listeners of thispodcast, I think many of them are
(11:32):
really passionate about theircareer progression and will want
to excel at work. And Isometimes I might cut this out because
it might come out wrong, but Ithink sometimes there is a tension
between working really focusedon that career progression goal.
There's almost a feeling ofguilt of why are you not just prioritizing,
making sure that you arenicely balanced by the time the kids
(11:54):
are at home and not checkingemails at the school gate just before
the kids come out?
Yeah.
What's your reflection onmanaging that tension between your
ambitions and your hopes foryour career and looking after yourself
enough so that you are present?
Yeah, exactly. I am atremendously ambitious person. I
have so much ambition. I wantto write more books. I've written
(12:14):
three books. I have likeanother book that's coming down the
pike, you know, this nextyear. I have ideas for one after
that. Like I want to besuccessful career wise. So I think
there's nothing wrong withthat at all. And I think the word
that you use that I think isproblematic is balance. I think that
when people are striving forthat perfect balance at all times
(12:37):
at the same moment, that'sreally where that tension comes.
Like, I know that again, goingback to this job thing, if I had
been trying to be fullyfocused on my patients as I was seeing
them in a telehealth settingand my kids were home, and I was
supposed to be keeping my kidsoff screens and paying attention
to their art projects and allthat. At the exact same time, it
(12:58):
would never work. So what Iteach women to do and what I want
to encourage women to do is tothink more about how do I have integration.
So how do I know when is theright moment to push really hard
into work and to say to mykids, you know what? Mommy's going
to be gone. I'll be on a worktrip. You're right. I won't be here
with you guys, and I'll missyou tremendously. Here's how I'm
(13:21):
going to set you up so thatthat way, people who love and care
about you will be with you.And then when I come back, you use
the other word, presence. Iwill be present with you because
I will have, like, I'm goingto dive into work for this moment,
and then I'm going to comeback and I'm going to dive into you
for this moment, and then I'lldive back into work in the other
way. So to me, that's how Ifound a lot more peace, is choosing
(13:44):
strategies that allow me toreally be more present with my work
or with my children. The otherthing I want to say, and I know this
is going to sound a little bitcontroversial, but sometimes I kind
of resent my kids for holdingme back from my career ambitions.
Sometimes I feel like if thesekids weren't here, I would be able
(14:04):
to be the CEO of this companyand I would be able to rise to the
highest ranks. And you guysare annoying me, honestly, that you're
here and you're taking up kindof my time and my brain space. And
this isn't true for everyone,but it is true for most people that,
who are working moms andworking parents, that I chose to
be a parent, I chose to havekids. And so whenever I feel that
(14:29):
way, I remind myself of that.Like, I chose this. It's because
I wanted the joy of family, Iwanted the joy of connectedness.
And so the world is probablynot going to set up all of its systems
and its policies in 2024 tofully support me in that endeavor.
I wish that they would. Itwould be awesome if they would. I
(14:49):
advocate with my vote and withmy petitions that I sign for it to
be more that way. But in themeantime, like, I have choices to
make about making sure that Iprioritize my kids and my work in
an integrated fashion. Andit's my own choice that I chose to
do both things. So I know thatthat might come off as a little bit
(15:10):
controversial, but I think itactually is important that we remember
that like that. Of coursethere's tension. We're trying to
do two jobs at the same time.Of course there is. And we live in
a world where we don't havethe support or the structure that
we need to do it well. Like wehaven't caught up to what our needs
are of working moms.
I agree. Now, you've trainedfor a number of years on how to make
(15:31):
sure that children are healthyand well. I know you're not child
psychiatrist, but I'm justinterested for those moments where
you do want to prioritizework. What is your reflection about
how you best set boundarieswith the children? Because the children
may. They might not quitesubscribe to this idea of work life
integration. They might wantyou when they want you.
Yeah, 100%. And actually in mymost recent book, I talk about this
(15:56):
as one of the six ways thatyou do prioritize your kids. Because
I don't think you need to bewith your kids 24, 7 and that you
need to be like holding theirhand for every school drop off and
all that. Boundaries. Settingboundaries is a really important
part of helping our kids togrow and thrive and also for us as
working moms to grow andthrive. And so a lot of setting boundaries
(16:19):
with kids is settingexpectations beforehand and giving
our kids expectations and anunderstanding of what's going to
happen. It's always temptingto me to want to run out the door
and go, I'm leaving for a worktrip because I don't want to deal
with the emotions or deal withall the feelings that I have and
that my kids have and theguilt. But the reality is my kids
know well in advance where I'mgoing, for how long I'll be gone,
(16:42):
what's happening, who's goingto be taking care of them. That makes
a huge difference. They also,at this age, they're 8 and 11. They,
I think, deserve to understandthe why behind what I do, what I
do. You know, why I do what Ido. They need to understand. So Mommy
is an author. Mommy sellsbooks. Mommy speaks. The only way
(17:04):
that I sell books is to get infront of audiences is to go and sign
books with other people. Welive in a house. They don't want
to move from this house. Theylove this house. The way that we
live in this house is thatMommy has a job. Mommy makes money
at that job. That money paysfor your little ride on car that
you got the other day, youknow, like for your birthday, like
(17:25):
this is the way kind of thatthe world works in terms of work.
So I think that at this agethat's important and that's boundary
setting for me is like to havethem understand this is what it is.
When I'm at home, in theoffice, I try to set really clear
visual boundaries. And this isimportant for my kids who are neurodiverse
because a lot of times theycan kind of feel emotional or kind
(17:46):
of not be paying attention asclosely to what my verbal instructions
are. So I have a stop signthat's on my door. So they know that
if I was recording a podcast,for example, that this is a time
not to enter. Mommy is busy atwork. I do a lot of that. I'll even
write them a note before I gointo a meeting saying I will be done
(18:08):
in 30 minutes. Until then, myexpectation is that you don't come
bother me because afterwardI'm excited to be with you. I also
really strongly advise forparents in terms of setting boundaries,
that when you're going to dothat, that if you can, that you front
load your attention and yourenergy on your kids before you go
to do your work thing. So ifyou're working from home and you
(18:29):
have a meeting, that you arewith your kids playing, giving them
a lot of one on one time,fully present with them as much as
possible for five minutesdoesn't have to be a super long period
of time, but that your kidsaren't waiting, waiting, waiting,
waiting, waiting for yourattention. That instead that you've
given them a lot of attentionand then you go and you do your work
thing. That tends to workbetter, especially for younger kids
(18:52):
as they get older. You canexplain more about how you're going
to go do this fun thingafterward or they're going to have
your attention afterward. Butwhen they're young, that helps to
kind of fill their buckets, aswe like to say in pediatrics, so
that they're not waiting andwaiting and waiting for mommy to
be with them or give them sometime. And if you can make it something
that's active and that allowsthem to run around and do all kinds
of things, that's that's evenbetter. The other way that we teach
(19:14):
our kids boundaries is byhelping them be a part of community
in our house, that mommydoesn't pick up all your toys, you
pick up your toys. So whilemommy's in this meeting, this is
your job. Mommy's going to herjob, you're going to your Job, which
is to your room to go pick upyour toys or to go do your work.
You're giving me the. You'regiving me the eye. Like that doesn't
(19:35):
work in your house.
I'm just saying. Well, eitheryou are just a super parent or I
don't quite believe that it'salways exactly like that.
Oh, it doesn't always exactlywork like that. Absolutely not. But
I have found that even thesaying, mommy is going to do her
work. And so this is your workright now. And once we do all those
(19:55):
things, we're going to have alot of fun together. Even if they
don't pick up any of the toys,it stops the whining in my house
to have it be like, oh, okay,I have an understanding. This is
what this time is for, is foreither playing or for doing my work
as a kid. And this is what mytime is for, is for working. I don't
expect my kids to have aperfectly clean room when I come
out of a meeting. And theydon't always. But I do think sometimes
(20:18):
when they have a task thatthey have choices of doing that that
helps significantly. And itdoes in my house, for sure.
Interesting. I just want to goon a side tangent, which is you're
writing books. And in my mind,that's something that requires deep
work. And for many workingparents, it's really tough to get
that deep work time becausethere's more stuff crammed into it.
(20:41):
You get all these messagesabout how you're a super multitasker
and so you feel you should bemultitasking all the time. I'm just
interested. How do youpractically carve out time for deep
work? Because for me, that isself care. If I don't have deep work,
I get really jittery.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.Me too. So I think there's one important
caveat here for me, which is,and hopefully for most people, their
(21:02):
deep work or things that theylove. But I love writing, so writing
doesn't feel like a chore tome. So when I get to do it, I actually
feel like, oh, I'm in thepocket, I'm in a flow. I love what
I'm doing. I don't always likeediting, but I love writing. So it
doesn't feel like somethingthat I have to pull myself out of
bed to do if given theopportunity. I would always love
(21:24):
to do that type of deep work.So I have to say that first. But
I actually have a verypractical solution for this. The
way that I divide my time andthis is on anything. Every single
day is I divide my day and mycalendar into projects and into responsibilities.
And I consider deep work aproject versus responsibilities are
(21:45):
things like I need to do thelaundry or I need to answer that
email or I need to pay thatbill or I need to make a quick phone
call to somebody. That's thething. So the little like to do's
on our to do list and I alwayswill pick one or two projects that
I want to make sure that Imake momentum on in a day first and
then I will schedule those onthe calendar in larger blocks of
(22:08):
my workday and then I willhave other responsibilities that
I'll fit in in between thoseprojects. And I find that I am much
more efficient with theresponsibilities once I've done the
deep work and once I feel likeI've gotten something meaningful.
Meaningful accomplish. Becauseto your point about feeling jittery,
I also feel very jittery if Idon't do anything that feels meaningful
(22:31):
in a day. So if I'm like, ohmy gosh, I feel so accomplished.
I just wrote a chapter, I justreviewed someone else's manuscript
for the day. Wow, I feel sogreat. I can really cross that off
my list. Then it's easy for meto go pay that bill, call that person,
do all those little things.And in your mind you have to, I think,
have a realistic expectationthat most of us have too many things
(22:54):
in our to do list. They'reprobably not going to get done in
a day. So that's how I, that'show I organize my days. And there
are some days where, okay,I've worked on deep work on projects
for two days in a row. I havesome responsibilities that have piled
up that need to get done thathaven't. And I'll say, okay, this
is not a project day. This isa straight just going through my
(23:14):
checklist, getting everysingle thing done. That's a responsibility
so that I can knock all thatstuff out and get back to the deep
work. But that's how I do it.
Thank you so much for sharing.Self care is sometimes easy when
everything works as planned.But the problem is all too often
there are things outside ofour control. There's perhaps the
workplace that suddenly callseverybody back to the office for
(23:38):
three days a week. Or perhapsa child who suddenly has a long term
additional need or a long termdisability where they need tons of
medical appointments for. Whatare your reflections on looking after
yourself in those situations?
Yeah, well, I'm intimatelyacquainted with this idea of things
not going perfectly. I thinkOne of the things that I really find
(23:59):
troublesome in kind of theself care world and also in the women's
empowerment movement I guesswould be the right thing to call
it is this idea of likemanifesting or envisioning your absolute
perfect world and then goingout and getting it and believing
in yourself and doing otherthings. I think I'm too grounded
in reality for that to be howI live my life. You know, my kids
(24:22):
have meltdowns every singleday. My house inevitably, like the
dishwasher breaks as you're,as you're trying to clean up the
kitchen. Like things justaren't perfect and I don't expect
them to be. So I think that'sone thing is that getting your expectations
in line with reality when itcomes to how much time you're going
to have for self care or whatlife looks like is really important.
(24:46):
A lot of psychologists callthat radical acceptance of like this
is how my world is. These arethe people that surround me. Okay,
deep breath. Now I can kind ofgo into the world and do what I need
to do. The other thing is ofcourse I try to make time for things
like yoga. That's one thatreally grounds me because I'm moving
and I'm also like getting alittle more quiet and being outside
(25:10):
that's really helpful to me. Ifind that for both of those things,
even if I only have 10 minutesof it, it makes a huge impact on
me. So I don't need a hugetime commitment for it. And I can
do it even if my world is kindof going crazy. So even if my kids
are acting a fool, as long asthere's somebody who can watch them
for 10 minutes or I can throwthem on a screen for 10 minutes and
I can go do that, it brings meback in a much more regulated state
(25:32):
and I can kind of handlethings a lot better. But I think
the other deeper parts of selfcare that we don't always think about
are actually what's the mostrestorative to me and does more of
that preventative work. So oneis mindful self compassion and tuning
into what my feelings andneeds are. So when I start to feel
really anxious, reallyagitated, really jittery in my mind,
(25:56):
I try my hardest to stop andcatch myself and try to identify
what is the feeling that I'mhappy having right now? Is it guilt?
Is it I'm anxious aboutsomething? Is it I feel sad, is it
I feel regretful? What is itthat's going on? Okay, so name the
emotion, validate it becauseusually there's a pretty good reason
(26:18):
why. Okay, there was just ahuge election yesterday and it didn't
go the way I wanted it to go.Okay, well, that makes sense. I'm
probably going to feel prettyanxious today and pretty down today
and then have some commonhumanity around it. So I bet I could
fill a coliseum full of peoplethat feel the exact same way. I bet
that in this moment when Ifeel anxious because even though
(26:40):
I had the stop sign on thedoor, my child did walk in during
the podcast interview andinterrupted me. And I feel like agitated
and guilty that I'm not payingattention to her and kind of embarrassed
with this person who'sinterviewing me. Okay, yeah, that
makes sense. And a lot ofother people would feel that same
way. And what that does whenwe give ourselves that mindful self
(27:01):
compassion, is it slows ournervous system down. So it allows
us to go from fight or flightwhere everything we do in our lives
is really reactive to beingmuch more responsive. And so it allows
us to take care of our needsin a much more effective manner.
So, for example, if my kiddowas coming in here right now and
(27:23):
interrupting and doing all thethings, I can then make a much more
mindful decision about whatneeds to happen in that moment. And
that decision might bedifferent depending on the situation.
So it might be if you and Iare having a friendly chat and it's
a meeting and we're notrecording something, we wouldn't
have to redo this later. Itmight be that I say, hey, you know
(27:43):
what? My kiddo, she's beensick. This has been a thing for like
three days. I'm sorry, I gottareschedule. This is just not working,
you know, for me today. Andit's not on you, it's not on me,
this, you know, kids, hey,right? Or it might be that I say
to my child, who is doingperfectly fine, I've given her tons
of attention the wholemorning. She just really wants my
attention. Now that I say,okay, pause, I go talk to her and
(28:06):
say, I've told you alreadythat I'm doing work. I will be back
to you. I love you very much.I'll be back with you later. And
I close the door and I lockit, right? Like that might be the
decision that I make or thething that I need might be. Okay,
I'm just going to pause andtake a deep breath and drink a sip
of my coffee before we keep ontalking because I feel agitated.
(28:27):
to me, that is the ultimatein self care is like paying Attention
to my needs, paying attentionto my feelings, and that allows me
then to decide in that momenthow am I going to respond, and also
to make the best decisionspossible for work, life integration
in the future. It might bethat I say, you know what, that didn't
(28:48):
work well to have it be on aday off of school that my kids were
here and I decided I was goingto schedule a podcast, but never
again. I'm not doing thatagain. That's a decision I'm not
going to make. And it doesn'tsolve every single problem. You might
have kids, that they're sick,you get called from school, like
life happens. But it does makeit so that, let's say, 70% of the
(29:08):
time you can make betterdecisions about your time management,
about how you're going toarrange things in a way that doesn't
constantly put you at oddswith your kids and your work.
That's very true. One thingI've been thinking a lot about is
this tension between masteryand taking rest. Because a lot of
our fellows, and I'm surequite a few of our listeners, have
(29:29):
always enjoyed excelling andthey like to be some really good
at their job and they want tothrive in their career. But I think
especially when you're used todoing this, it's hard to make a decision.
So even if you notice, I amexhausted and actually all I need
is just an afternoon where Ilie down. It is really tough to make
that decision without feelingthat you are failing. I'm just interested
(29:53):
in. Sorry. I feel like I'masking you all these psychologist
questions, but...
No, well, the book ends upbeing a lot of psychologist questions.
Here's the reason why. And Iam that same exact way. Okay, so
part of it might be ourwiring. People who want to excel
tend to be people who are alittle bit more Type A. They may
be a little bit more nervousenergy. Like I have anxiety myself,
(30:15):
of course. Like, it's hard forme to rest, is hard for me to slow
down. Also, we have all theconditioning from society, especially
American society, that saysthe more you do, the more valuable
you are. So, of course, themore you do, the more accolades we
get, the more we want to do.Lastly, we've been exercising that
muscle of doing, doing, doing.And so when we slow down, it feels
(30:38):
really uncomfortable. Like itfeels like an attack on our body
almost to slow down. Myhusband and I used to joke that when
we went on vacation that Ibecame like the worst version of
myself. I would pick fightsbecause I needed some type of input.
And so I would get itpositively or negatively. However,
(31:00):
it just made me feel terribleto be on vacation. I hated it. Like
in Hawaii, sitting on a beach.I could not do that. So the way to
help yourself with that verynormal feeling of wanting to go,
go, go, go, go, feeling guiltyabout rest, feeling terrible when
we're resting, is to exerciseit in small quantities, just like
(31:20):
you would if you're startingto exercise. So if you were starting
to lift weights, you wouldn'tgo with the 50 pound weights first
you would lift a 3 poundweight and then you would go for
a 10 pound weight. If you'retrying to exercise this muscle, you
might practice. Okay. Insteadof moving on to the next meeting
without a break, I'm going topractice going and getting a glass
of water in between and havingfive minutes in between instead of
(31:42):
moving quickly to the nextmeeting like that is exercising that
muscle. It might be. I'm goingto close my eyes for 10 seconds before
I jump on that next call. So Ithink that's the way that you start
to get more comfortable withtaking breaks and then again giving
yourself so much compassionfor when you do feel like, I feel
terrible when I'm resting, Ifeel like I shouldn't rest. I feel
(32:04):
like I haven't done enough torest as you practice and as you get
better and better and betterat the skill of resting. The other
thing for my competitive typeA fellow moms and parents who are
out there, is if you thinkabout it also as you're building
a skill and you want to havemastery over rest, sometimes that
helps too. So sometimes if I'mlike, oh, I'm going to get so good
(32:27):
at rest, I'm going to be likethe best at rest. Sometimes that
helps me because, you know,it's like a reverse psychology where
you're actually doing thething that's really great for you,
but you're still using thatcompetitive edge that you have to
do it and it ends up with thesame result.
That's a really, that's areally good reframe. I couldn't agree
more. I think there issomething also to be said about the
(32:48):
fact that when you do makethose choices and rest in particular,
and taking breaks, it's shownto create better output. So I know
I'm coming back to theproductivity argument, but actually,
if you want to excel, if youwant to be a Nobel Prize winner,
you definitely need to to dosomething that isn't connected to
your field of research thatmakes you think in different ways.
(33:09):
Exactly.
And I think the Rest is agender. I mean, I can't remember
where I read this. I'm suremaybe it was on a different podcast
episode, but actually there'sa gender issue, isn't there, with
men and women not having thesame amount of time to rest?
Oh, well, yes. I mean, forsure. Yeah. The mental load and the
fact that we are doing it allin our families. I mean there's a
whole thing about the likemarried single mom phenomenon and
(33:31):
how a lot of women aredivorcing their, their husbands because
they're like, why? It's justan extra child who I basically have
to take care of. I'm doingeverything anyway. Right. Like moms
are, I think, wired toovercompensate and do as a, from
a societal standpoint, justbecause that's how our very patriarchal
society is set up, that a lotof women are working and doing the
(33:54):
second shift of taking care oftheir homes 100%. The other thing
I wanted to say to your pointabout it, building productivity,
I want to just like invitepeople also to do this whole rest
and work thing on their ownterms because I think a lot of times
people say like, oh well,don't push too hard because then
you're going to burn yourselfout and then you're going to have
(34:16):
to take rest at a time that'sinconvenient. Sure. But there are
times where I want to go takea red eye to get to a conference
to sign books and then go havea meeting with somebody important
and then fly immediately homeso that way I can be with my kid
to take her to her camp sendoff thing. And then for the next
(34:36):
two days I'm gonna do likenothing. I'm gonna be on the couch,
I'm gonna watch Taylor Swifteras tour concert videos on Netflix.
Like that's gonna be what Ido. And that's okay. If that's your
version of rest is like workreally, really hard and then play
really hard. Like that's okaytoo. I, I think we have to throw
out some of these rules of ithas to be that you're only nine to
(34:58):
five and you set reallyspecific hours around when you respond
to your emails. Like I lovegetting caught up on emails at 11:00
at night. That's my favoritething to do. But that's because then
the next morning I want to gotake a walk and not have to do any
work in the morning. Like it'sall about when is your energy the
best and what allows you tofunction at your optimal speed and
(35:21):
efficiency. You just have toremember to not always be go, go,
go, go, go to give yourselfsome of that rest in a way that works
for you.
Yeah, that resonates. I havenow got a very strict on work off
work life also because I dowork from home quite a lot. But I
actually absolutely loveworking late at night. It's a secret
(35:44):
pleasure of mine and I veryrarely allow myself, you know, when
you just. Sorry, I shouldn'tbe saying this but it is so true.
And my partner is brilliant atholding me to account and will even
now we're recording thispodcast between five and six and
usually I finish a quarter tosix or something. It's like, why
are you working until sixo'clock? I was like, it's, you know,
a US podcast You know, Idon't want to make them get up so
(36:05):
early in the morning and. AndI think there is something. Yeah,
but there is somethingbeautiful. Like I might give myself
permission to do some ofthose. Especially if it's the deep
work that you enjoy.
Yeah, exactly. The deep work.Yeah, like, because then your brain
isn't full of other things. Iwrite a lot at night. Like I write.
I love writing at 10 o'clockat night or midnight or 1 o'clock
(36:26):
in the morning. Like that'swhen my brain works. So why deny
ourselves that pleasure? But Ithink it is about like you're saying
then you have to remember totake the break later because it's
easy I think for those of uswho over function to then just keep
on going and never take thebreak. You know, just keep on working
then a 9 to 5 the next day. So.
Yeah, yeah, that's very true.And remind me of the title of your
(36:50):
most latest or next book.
Yeah, the book is called Doingit All. Stop over functioning and
become the mom and person youare meant to be.
Lovely. I think the bit therethat really resonates with me is
to stop doing and I think thatin a way that is the hardest thing
because also again I'm. I loveexcelling. I really, I want to excel.
(37:12):
I'm super ambitious still. ButI think it's the choice on what you
focus on because anyway that'swhat sits behind it, isn't it? You
have to choose. Like for you,it sounds like it is the books you
have decided to become anauthor and you are an author. But
how do you make those choicesthat then allow you to let go of
other stuff? Do you have anyreflections on that?
Yeah, great question. Yes, Iactually think this is the crux of
(37:35):
the book, I think, especiallyfor women, again, because of all
the conditioning that wetalked about, because of the polls
on our attention, becausesociety is not fair, we have a tendency
to do it all. And we have ahard time saying no to anything,
to setting those boundaries.And so what I know is that women
(37:56):
have to say to know what theywant to say yes to first. So in the
book, I actually help peopledefine what are the five core, what
I call center points that youwant to say yes to in your life?
What are the things that alignwith your personal values, with your
personal giftings, with yourpersonal things that light you up,
(38:19):
that give you joy, that youfeel so happy with when you're doing
deep work? What are thosethings? And they're a mix usually
of career things and ofpersonal family things and of individual
things. Like, I have on mylist travel and music. I get so lit
up. I'm so happy in a JazzClub at 1 o'clock in the morning
in New Orleans listening to,like, live music, that I could be
(38:42):
there for one hour. And thatfills my soul for a whole month.
I'm like, happy just thinkingabout it or watching a Vince Vaughn
film, like a comedy thing.Like, that's the other thing that,
like, lights me up, right? Soeverybody has their things that they
want to say yes to, but wehave to understand those things deeply.
And not just on a surfacelevel. Like, I love travel and I
(39:02):
love music, but more like thething that I want to invest my time
and money in is traveling toamazing places, seeing the best artists
in a live music capacity. Ormy career thing is I want to contribute
to women via speaking andwriting about work, life integration.
(39:23):
Like, that's a very specificthing that I'm always saying yes
to. If someone comes at me foran interview and says, hey, I want
to talk about potty trainingfor kids, because you're a pediatrician,
like, sure, that goes alongkind of with kids thriving and moms
thriving. But unless it's theNew York Times that wants to ask
me about that, I haveabsolutely no interest in spending
(39:45):
my time answering interviewquestions about that. Like, that's
a total waste of my time. Andso I help people to figure out what
are those things they want tosay yes to so that way they can get
the rest of it done without itdefining them. And I think that really
is the difference. It's abouttriaging kind of in your mind these
things I have to give myattention to. Because otherwise,
(40:06):
when I'm 80, I'm going to lookback on my life and feel so disappointed
that I didn't do what I wasput on this earth to do. I don't
want that for anybody becauseI know that's kind of the ultimate
in a mess in our lives.
Very philosophical. So we'recoming towards the end of our podcast
time together, sadly, and weusually finish with some practical
(40:28):
things. So I'm interested-You've obviously spent quite a bit
of time writing, researching,thinking about this book, and I'm
wondering if there are anypractical things that you have changed
in your own life as a resultthat you would like to pass on to
the listeners.
Yes. So one is decluttering,one is trying to think about where
(40:50):
in your physical space and onyour calendar too. But let's talk
about physical space. Forpractical reasons, you can get rid
of things that you have totake care of because that is the
ultimate time and energy suckis having it so that you're constantly
picking up, putting away,cleaning, that type of thing. So
(41:11):
that is one total life hackthat I live by. Like a Marie Kondo.
You can do whatever method youwant. I don't care. I talk about
a method in the book, but itdoesn't matter what method you use
to just basically simplifyyour environment so that you have
less you have to take care of,because we all have enough we have
to take care of. So if I wasto give you one practical piece of
advice, it would be once aquarter, go through with a trash
(41:33):
bag or a couple trash bags,throw some stuff away, give it to
Goodwill, give it to a friend.Like just get rid of stuff, because
the stuff is what you're goingto drown in. So I think that's number
one. Number two is decidingwhat things you can give away to
other people. People, whatthings you can delegate to other
(41:54):
people on your to do list.That also takes away a lot of the
stress and strain. And as apractical strategy, I want to invite
people to focus on technologyfirst because I know that feels like
it's not a person, but hey,the more AI comes around it kind
of as a person. So what aretwo things that you could give to
(42:14):
other people or to technologythat would take the stress off you?
Mine is grocery shopping. Ilove to go to a grocery store and
pick out fun little treats,but I hate to go to the grocery store
and pick out milk and orangejuice. So I use Instacart. I order
all that stuff online. I havea running shopping list and I just
order it and they come bringit to me. Yes, it costs an extra
(42:34):
$10 but it gives me a lot ofpeace of mind, a lot of time, a lot
less energy spent. So that's agreat example of using technology.
There's also a great appcalled Maple Grow Maple and I don't
like getting the affiliatemoney for them. It's just a good
app that helps people toorganize what are their to dos and
helps with calendar remindersand things like that. So anything
(42:56):
that you can offload to appsor to technology that will help you
get things done faster andwithout you putting in as much effort,
those are the two majorstrategies, decluttering and delegating.
Wonderful. Thank you so muchfor sharing. And if people want to
find out more about you or ifthey want to read your books, where
should they go? Can you just.Sorry for my memory, but can you
just remind people of thetitle again?
(43:18):
Of course, yeah. So the titleis doing it all. Stop over functioning
and become the mom and personyou're meant to be. It's available
wherever books are sold.Amazon is the easiest. It's on audiobook,
there's an ebook and there'salso a paperback book. And in the
back of the book I put aworking mom discussion guide. So
if you want to talk about itwith other moms, which I think is
(43:38):
an amazing way to do itbecause as we're saying, there's
lots of struggles. You got tofigure out kind of the strategies
that work for you and thatdon't work for you. And then I'm@modernmommydoc.com
is my website and the easiestplace to find me on the Internet
is odurnmommydoc on Instagram.I hang out there a lot. And then
Whitney Caceres is my LinkedInprofile and you know, I do more academic
(44:02):
researchy things on LinkedInas we do and we have a lot of fun
on Instagram just to keep it alittle bit spontaneous over there.
Wonderful. Thank you so muchfor joining us.
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Verena Hefti and I'd be delighted
(44:25):
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpar passionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment
(44:46):
and most of the top chartingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast our fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same, then please head over to
leadersclass.org/Fellowship inorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combineambitious career with young children
(45:10):
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
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