April 9, 2025 • 49 mins
In this inspiring episode of the Big Careers, Small Children podcast, Verena Hefti MBE speaks with Louise Donaghey FRAeS, Group Head of Engines at International Airlines Group GBS, who will soon be one of Leaders Plus’ Senior Leader Mentors, about her remarkable career in aviation, leadership in male-dominated environments, and her experience of being the sole breadwinner in her family for nearly two decades.
Louise shares candidly about managing the pressure of high-stakes roles while raising two children, how she learned to embrace vulnerability as a strength, and what it really takes to stay present as a parent when the stakes at work are high. Her story is full of honesty, practical wisdom, and powerful reframing of success, motherhood, and leadership.
Together, they explore:
✔️ What it means to lead as the sole breadwinner in a family
✔️ Why vulnerability is a leadership strength, not a weakness
✔️ How to deal with judgement from others (especially fellow parents)
✔️ Practical strategies to be present with your children while succeeding at work
✔️ How to shut out guilt and define success on your own terms
✔️ Why ambition can grow because of parenting, not in spite of it
✔️ The value of scaring yourself with roles that stretch you
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- How to balance career ambition and caring responsibilities
- Why perfection is a myth and authenticity matters more
- How to handle judgment and stay confident in your choices
- Strategies for setting boundaries and managing your energy
- The mindset shift needed to thrive as a working parent and leader
Show Notes:
- Connect with Louise Donaghey on LinkedIn
- Learn more about the Leaders Plus: Big Careers, Small Children podcast and explore additional resources at leadersplus.org.
- Follow Leaders Plus on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Bluesky.
- Connect with our CEO, Verena Hefti MBE on LinkedIn.
- Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
Our multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowships support parents committed to career growth while enjoying family life. Expertly designed to keep parents on the leadership path, our programme tackles gender pay gap issues and empowers parents to thrive. Learn more here: Leaders Plus Fellowship.
More BCSC episodes you might love:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male middle class peopleleading our organizations. We must
change this together and Ihope that many of you listening right
now will progress to the mostsenior leadership roles that you
like where you can make thedecisions that make our world a better
(00:44):
place. Outside of the podcast.I am the CEO and founder of the Social
enterprise Leaders Plus. Weexist to help working parents progress
their careers to seniorleadership in a way that works for
you and for your families. Wehave free events and resources on
leadersplus.org where you candownload helpful toolkits such as
(01:05):
on returning from maternityleave, share parental leave, securing
a promotion, dealing withworkload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family and you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program, be that becoming
more senior in their role,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impressed me so much
with the courage that theyinstill in each other to do what
is right for them withoutapologizing for having a family or
(02:13):
apologizing for wanting thattop job. Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship.
In this week's conversationI'm chatting to Louise Donaghey,
who soon will be one of oursenior leader mentors about being
the main breadwinner in thefamily, how to deal with judgment
(02:35):
from others, what she haslearned about practical strategies
for staying present with herfamily, and also her learning around
being vulnerable. I havereally enjoyed her frankness and
found the conversation veryinspiring for me personally. I'm
sure you will do too. A verywarm welcome Louise to The podcast.
It's great to have you withus. Why don't we start with you introducing
(02:58):
who you are, what you do forwork and who's in your family.
Thank you, Verena. It's apleasure to be here. My name's Louise
Donaghey. What I do for workcurrently is I'm the group head of
engines for InternationalAirlines Group. That is the parent
company for a number ofairlines, probably the best known
of which is British Airwaysand, and Iberia. It's a very recent
change for me. I joined thatorganization just three months ago.
(03:21):
My career is 30 years inaviation with 20 of those years being
in Rolls Royce. So Rolls Royceengines rather than Rolls Royce cars.
And I spent 10 years in thecivil business. So that's engines
that power airlines, aircraftand airlines. And I spent 10 years
in the defense business. Soengines that power fighter aircraft,
(03:43):
transport aircraft,helicopters. So 20 years with rolls
Royce engine manufacturing.Before that, I actually spent some
time serving in the Royal AirForce as an engineering officer.
So that's my last 30 years ofmy career. In my family, I have two
teenage children. My son is 19and my daughter is 16. She'll experience
(04:06):
her GCSEs this summer. AndI've been the primary income earner,
the sole breadwinner actually,since my children have been born.
And I found that to be inequal parts extremely rewarding and
extremely challenging andsometimes utterly heartbreaking.
But yeah, in my family, a 19year old son and a 16 year old daughter
(04:28):
and two dogs to just completethe family picture, very important.
The dogs are very important.And it sounds like you've been working
quite a male. I mean, I mighthave the wrong image here, but I'm
picturing it's a lot of men inthe industries that you've been working
in and you've learned toclearly thrive and excel in that
area really.
Well, your picture's entirelyaccurate. I've always been in a very
(04:51):
male dominated environment,right from my degree. So my degree
was aeronautical engineering.To put it into context, in my first
year there were 150 studentson the course, five women, and only
three of us made it through tograduation. So it's been very male
dominated since the early partof my career and I've made some huge
(05:13):
mistakes in that environment.So I don't mind sharing that. When
I first entered a very maledominated engineering environment,
my only role models, Roena,were men. So when I looked at a senior
level in the organizationsback 25, 30 years ago, I thought
that I had to behave like Aman in order to actually progress
(05:33):
and succeed. And I didn'treally have female role models. I
had role models within my ownfamily, my mum, my nana, my mum's
mum. But in the professionalenvironment in which I found myself,
I didn't have those femalerole models and I didn't really have
role models that showed me howbest to balance a young family with
(05:54):
actually progressing at pacethrough your career. So your insight's
really accurate. I'm glad tosay that I've noticed positive changes
through the 30 years that I'vespent in aviation and predominantly
engineering, but certainly itnowhere near represents society and
I find that an ongoingchallenge and a challenge that I'm
tackling head on where I canin the organizations where I work.
(06:17):
But yeah, it's very maledominated. And that's some of the
stories I want to share withyou today, actually is the stuff
that I've felt I've had tokeep hidden in order to not be judged
differently from my male colleagues.
Interesting. And there'salways such a tension. I mean, nowadays
if you look at LinkedIn, thereare quite a few people who are shouting
about how they're workingparent and there are even some influencers
(06:39):
who are in senior roles in thecorporate sectors, but then are also
blasting out pictures of howthey're breastfeeding during a business
call. And how have you foundcombining your mother identity with
your professional identity?Did you feel you had to keep the
mother identity hidden at thestart of your career?
(07:00):
I absolutely did. And I'm notsaying that that was right. That
was just the way that I feltat the time. And having gone along
that journey and maturedthrough experience, I reach out now
and help others not to feelthat way because I certainly felt.
And my son was born in 2005,so he'll be 20 this year. So it's.
(07:23):
It's been a journey that I'vebeen on for quite some time, but
I was a relatively youngparent and I was quite senior in
my career already at the time.So my son was born when I was a sales
director for the Rolls RoyceCivil business, so selling engines
and engine contracts toairlines, traveling the world at
the time. I was 27 when my sonwas born and I felt that I couldn't
(07:47):
share the challenges that Iwas having as a parent because my
colleagues would judge medifferently and would find me somehow
lacking in my dedication to mysales director role and my career.
And I say this with a smilenow, which is hard to see when you're
only hearing audio. I say itwith a smile now, because I realize
how foolish that assumptionwas, but I don't think I'm alone
(08:09):
in making it. And I was veryreticent, particularly when my children
were young, to talk about thefact that I had children and I was
trying to balance mycommitment to them as a mother with
also being competitive andviewed as credible in my professional
space. And I deliberately now,and it wasn't an easy lesson for
(08:31):
me to learn, I deliberatelymerged the two in my conversations
with my team and my peers andmy senior leadership team. Today
I do that. I did not do thatwhen my children were young because
I felt somehow that I shouldnot. And I wouldn't, for example,
have a picture of my childrenon my desk at work 20 years ago.
(08:53):
And that in no way meant thatI was ashamed of being a mother.
But I struggled to presentthat personality and get that personality
to integrate with thiscompetitive, ambitious, career driven
professional. And I reallydon't think that that should be the
reality now. But I suspect,Rowena, that it is still some people's
(09:14):
reality. And I was veryreluctant to talk about my family
at work in case I was judgedas being less than committed. And
yet I would see malecolleagues being judged positively
for having a picture of theirfamily, their partner, their children,
their dog. It almost provokedthe opposite reaction to the reaction
(09:38):
I thought that I was going tohave if I shared about that openly
so very much. When my childrenwere small and I wanted my career
to be big, I tried to separatethe two. And I think the tension
that I caused personally wasactually unhealthy.
So what do you know now thatyou didn't know those 20 years ago?
(10:01):
If you started again, I knowyou shared in an earlier conversation
we had that you weren't one ofthose women who said, oh, I always
will have a baby, and yes,it's part of my life plan, but you
decided to have children. Andthen if you now look back at that
moment, what would you advise yourself?
So many things. It's a greatquestion. What would I tell myself
(10:22):
then, knowing what I know now,I would do so many things differently.
I think one thing I wouldencourage myself 20 years ago to
embrace is the power ofvulnerability. And I've learned the
lesson, particularly throughthe last five to eight years, that
as a senior leader now, when Ishow up and I am vulnerable, it not
(10:46):
only gives everyone elsepermission to also be vulnerable,
but it inspires others thatyou don't have to have all the answers
and you don't have to haveeverything together all at Once.
Because guess what? Nobodydoes. And we've got an even bigger
challenge right now in 2025.When I look at my daughter growing
(11:07):
up, currently 16, you've gotall of the social media posts that
just present what they wantyou to see. And nobody's life is
perfect. We're all perfectlyimperfect. We're all messy, we're
all vulnerable. We all getstuff wrong probably more often than
we'll ever admit to anyone,not even ourselves. And so I think
one of the things that I wouldtell myself 20 years ago is there's
(11:30):
a power in your vulnerability.And the more that you share without
oversharing and getting to aplace that you're comfortable with,
actually, the more otherpeople are encouraged to share. And
it creates a really inclusiveenvironment in which people feel
safe to say, do you know what?I'm not on my A game today. I got
four hours sleep last nightbecause my son was sick through the
(11:53):
night, and I'm feeling prettyfrazzled, and I'm not sure I'm very
prepared for the next meetingthat's happening. And 20 years ago
me, or even 15 years ago me,when I had a toddler and my daughter
was born, I would have feltthat that was somehow weakness if
I had said that very openly tomy team, my peers, maybe even to
(12:14):
my manager. But actually, whatI've learned more recently is that
is a strength, being boldenough to say, I am not on my A game
today. I am human, and I amsuffering with sleep deprivation.
I'm worried about my childbecause they've been sick during
the night and I'm going toneed a bit of support today. And
(12:36):
I really like. It's not myconcept. A concept shared by Brenny
Brown, who's one of myfavorite writers, is that a relationship
is never 50 50, becausefundamentally at work, it's all about
relationships. So if you eversee Brene Brown talking about this,
it's the concept of amarriage, but I like to apply it
to a professional relationshipor the relationship with my manager
(12:59):
or the relationship with myleadership team. It is not every
day that we all bring 50 50.And it's being psychologically brave
enough to say on those dayswhere you don't quite have 50% to
give to the relationship,whether that's to your customer,
whether that's to yourleadership team, whether that's to
your peer, where you'reworking on a project together, it's
(13:21):
feeling okay to say, do youknow what? Today I've got 20%. And
they can rock up and be like,well, that's okay. I got you covered.
I got 80% today. We can makethis work. But if they rock up and
say, do you know what? I'veonly got 30% today. I've got a lot
going on at home. I've gotsome challenges with my children,
you say, let's be kind to eachother today. Let's not tackle the
big, hard stuff. We're bothhaving a rough time, so let's leave
(13:44):
that to a day where we've gotmore to give. So I think it's the
power of vulnerability. It'srole modeling to others that it's
okay not to have it alltogether. And it is talking about
the stuff that unites us aspeople, because that is authentic.
Right? Take any CEO of anyorganization, regardless of their
personal circumstance, theywill have days where they're not
(14:08):
at their best. And I wouldlove for everybody to be in an environment
where people can just say,when they're not at their best and
get the support that theyneed. And I probably just wasn't
brave enough to do that. WhenI started out with small children
and I wanted this big career,I almost thought the two were mutually
exclusive. And I don't believethat now for a minute. Verena. And
that was why it was importantto connect with you on this podcast.
(14:29):
Absolutely. Thank you forbeing so open. One thing that struck
me when we first spoke wasthat you were okay with being ambitious,
and that's. I think that'squite a rare thing. I feel there's
almost a bit of a backlash.Yes, we do all need work, life balance.
I certainly do. And we do wantto be present with our children,
(14:51):
have good relationships, butactually, I also want to. To be ambitious.
And we're recording this nowas I'm pregnant with my fourth. And
I just mentioned to you thatactually there is still this moment
where you think, oh, mygoodness, is it okay to want more?
Or should you just relax andstay at home? Which is absolutely
fine choice for some people ifthat's what they want to do. But
(15:13):
I'm interested in what's yourrelationship with ambition? Have
you always wanted to be withyour kids, or did you ever think
of giving up work?
It's a great question becauseyou said it exactly right. It's a
different answer foreverybody. And I think as working
women, as working parents, weshould just stop trying to find the
(15:33):
magic formula, because,spoiler alert, there is no magic
formula. It's different forabsolutely everybody. For me personally,
having children actuallyincreased my ambition because I wanted
to Prove for myself. I sufferwith anxiety, I suffer with a lot
of self doubt. I was bulliedthroughout my childhood for the way
(15:56):
that I looked and for beingdifferent. And that gave me an internal
voice that always says, you'renot good enough, you're not pretty
enough, you're not sportyenough, you won't succeed. And I've
battled with that. I'veembraced therapy, I've embraced life
coaching. I still strugglewith it, but having children actually
(16:17):
increased my ambition. Andagain, that is not the outcome for
everybody. And I respect that.Everybody makes different choices.
But for me, from the moment myson was born, my husband and I, we
don't have any family support.Our families live quite far away
from where we've chosen to befor work. My husband made the commitment
to give up his work and he wasa martial arts instructor. He was
(16:42):
one of those people that wasdoing for a career what they were
passionate about. And he gavethat up to care for our child. And
it was his personal choice.And we said, if it doesn't work out
and it drives you up the wallbecause you really want to be doing
your martial arts training,then we'll do something differently.
We will make it work. Whateverthe Excel spreadsheet says about
(17:04):
our finances, we'll find a wayto make it work. That was our commitment
as a partnership. But from theminute my son arrived and my husband
gave up his passion formartial arts and for teaching others,
particularly women andchildren, so he was teaching women
self defense courses andconfidence classes for children in
how to defend themselves indifficult situations. From the minute
(17:26):
he gave that up, I felt I wasworking for three people. And nobody
said that to me, that that wasthe expectation. That's the expectation
I put on myself. And I wantedto show my son what was possible
when you really went aftergoals, you know, meaningful goals.
And I wanted to show my sonhow it looked to fail and that failure
(17:47):
was okay. And I wanted to makemy husband proud that he was going
to be a full time carer for ababy, which at times can be the most
beautifully rewarding thingand at times can drive you absolutely
batshit crazy. Right? He waswilling to do all of that. So I doubled
down on my efforts at work. Iwanted to fundamentally make them
(18:07):
proud and prove that you canhave everything, not all at once.
Not all at once. I thinkthat's a complete fallacy that you
can have everything all atonce, but that following your dreams
was possible with the rightsupport network. And my support network
at that time was a slightlyterrified husband. Who had no idea
what it meant to look after ababy full time and a beautiful baby
(18:29):
boy, who was completelyoblivious to all of the decisions
that were being made on hisbehalf, but has thanked me later,
as he's progressed intoadulthood, for all the lessons he
learned as a result of how weset up. So my relationship with ambition
is very healthy, but I havefaced massive criticism for it. And
again, what would I say to myyounger self? Those people's opinions
(18:51):
really didn't matter. Theyhurt. At the time, I had judgment,
particularly from othermothers. When I would, for example,
take my son to a party theweekend because I was around and
I wanted to spend time withhim. I would show up at these parties
and it was predominantlymothers, and they would say to me,
(19:12):
where's John, my husband? AndI would say, I'm giving John a break
this weekend. I'm here. I'mgoing to spend time with my son.
And they would say, well,you're the one that travels all the
time. What does it feel liketo be away from your child? How do
you cope with that? And Ireally took that judgment to heart,
like somehow I wasn't doingwhat was expected of me as a mother.
(19:32):
And when I stepped back fromit, Varina I thought, my child has
everything he needs. It's justmainly coming from his dad. And that's
okay because I'm enabling thatto happen. And his dad is there at
every important event of hislife. And it would be the same if
it was a grandparent, a carer,a family friend, it doesn't matter.
(19:55):
But yet I feel like society,and I'm talking Western society.
So I was based in the US whensome of this judgment was happening.
I've also been based in the UKand had similar judgments. So maybe
I'm talking about Westernsociety, but I feel like there's
a harsher judgment on motherswho are ambitious than there is on
fathers. And that's not okay,is what it is. And life's not fair.
(20:16):
I get it. But my relationshipwith ambition is almost in spite
of all of the judgment thatI've encountered, almost to prove
the doubters wrong. But that'swhere I'm at. And I can only tell
you where I'm at personally,and that land with some people listening,
and some people will hate thatas an answer. But for me, my ambition
increased. I wanted to prove apoint. I wanted to set a great example
(20:40):
to my son and later mydaughter. And I also wanted to show
a family setup that maybestill is not stereotypical, but that
can work if you will sign upto the same outcome.
(25:00):
I think it is so important todo what works for you and what works
for your family. We have thiscommunity of leaders plus fellows,
so working parents who want toprogress their careers but also want
to have strong relationshipswith their children. Some of them
work part time, some of themwork full time. But I've heard from
them a number of times thatthose who choose a shorter maternity
(25:23):
or share parental leaves, thatthey get that judgment. And why are
you doing that? And I thinkit's such a personal thing. I spoke
to one person, one of oursenior leader mentors, Joanna Santinon,
and she said, well, actually,for me, it was much more important
to be present with my kidswhen they were teenagers, and it
was fine to hand over the babywhen it was three months old because
(25:45):
I didn't really like babies somuch. I couldn't agree more with
you. It's so important to doit in a way that works for you. Is
there anything that you'velearned, I mean, it's easy, I'm sure,
from hindsight to say that youlearn to cope with the judgment.
Is there anything else thatyou've learned in terms of responding
or not responding to thesecomments or to their looks that you
(26:06):
might get from other parentsor perhaps even colleagues at the
time?
Yes, I've definitely learned agreat deal. And I love that you've
got somebody within leadersplus that is brave enough to be honest
and say, actually, I don'tlike the baby face. And I think you
said it really well. You'vegot to select the solution that's
(26:28):
right for you, regardless ofother people's opinions and judgments,
no matter how much they hurt.And you need to play to your strengths.
I'm very direct and veryhonest, and that's not always welcome
in a female leader. I've beencalled aggressive rather than assertive
when I know if I'd exhibitedthat behavior as a man, it would
(26:49):
have certainly beencelebrated. So what can you do to
combat the judgment? Well, afew things that I've done, and I
think your other alumni alsosaid the same thing. I compartmentalized.
I am very present with mychildren when I'm with my children,
and I am very present with mywork when I'm with my work. And I
(27:10):
don't try to multitaskbecause, controversially, I am appalling
at multitasking. I just doeverything quite badly when I try
to do it all at once. So oneof the things I did to combat the
judgment is I would Always befully present with my children when
I was with them. Now, the factof the matter is I chose an 8020
model. I chose 80% of timewith my career in order to provide
(27:33):
the lifestyle that I thoughtwas what my children would thrive
in and how it would support myhusband. Because, let's be honest,
the reality of having apartner that gives up work is you
go from two incomes to one.And so there was an ambitious part
of me that wanted to providethe right environment and lifestyle
for my children and my husbandto thrive. And then I applied my
(27:53):
8020 rule. I said, 80% of mytime, I'm going to be working. I'm
going to be fully focused onmy work because my husband is fully
focused on my child or mychildren, depending upon what phase
we were at. But when I'm withmy children, whether that's one or
both, I will be fully present.I am not going to be that parent
that is on the phone readingemails while having a half an eye
(28:15):
on the football game or thegymnastics tournament or whatever
it is that you're there withyour child to do so. I would compartmentalize
and I would engage with theparents. Even if there was resistance
and judgment, I would keepengaging with them. Whenever I took
my child to a party or anevent or around to another child's
(28:39):
house for some time together,I would make sure to be absolutely
fully present and focused inthat moment. And for me, and this
is only for me, having thosefully focused moments of quality
for 20% of my time, I feel wasa better combination than being partially
present for 80% of my time.And whenever I would travel on work
(29:00):
controversial, I wouldn't callhome because I would be fully focused
on doing what I had to getdone at work so that I could be fully
focused on my family when Ireturned at the weekend. And again,
I would get judgments andcomments. How can you not phone home?
How can you not say goodnight?Well, at the time, if I think about
(29:20):
my travel when my son was veryyoung, that would have satisfied
a selfish need for me to maybehear his voice or hear the noise
that he would make when he wasnot speaking. And a little younger,
but it would have disruptedtheir nighttime routine. And I just
think the way to get around alot of the challenges that we create
for ourselves is clarity ofexpectations within the family unit.
(29:43):
I would say to my husband, andlatterly to my children, me not calling
you at nighttime is notbecause I don't think you're important.
It's because I'm putting yourneeds above my needs. My husband
could get that when they werereally young because he's an adult
and he would respect that. Andthat would be our operating model.
And as my children grow older,I'd explain it to them directly.
I'm not calling tonightbecause I want to give you and daddy
(30:06):
time to do the bedtime routineand I'm going to be out in a business
dinner and I would be callinglater and it would be disruptive
and it would be purely my needto hear your voice to satisfy how
I feel and to maybe assuagethat parental guilt. So I think to
combat some of the judgment,it's clarity of expectations in your
personal unit, whatever thatunit looks like, it's listening to
(30:30):
the judgments but not takingthem personally and continuing to
engage. Because after thatvery first birthday party experience
where they said, oh, you'rethe one that goes away, how do you
do that? How do you feel aneasy option would have been, well,
I'm not going to those eventsanymore. I'm not engaging with that
group of people. But Icontinued to engage because there's
ways in which you can actuallydemonstrate to people it's okay.
(30:51):
And I apologize to you in mypodcast because now my dog is barking
in the background.
Please don't apologize. I amdelighted. We've had a number of
babies gurgling during thepodcast and dogs and cats. So absolutely
no, no need to apologize.
No, I thought I'd set up for avery quiet, uninterrupted discussion
with you, Barina, but that's apuppy. It's a new puppy. And she
(31:15):
was just trying to make hervoice heard as we spoke about this.
So I think it is clearexpectations, compartmentalization
works for some people. Itcertainly worked for me, but it's
hard. I'm not going to pretendI spent some nights in hotel rooms
when I was traveling in tearsbecause I felt I was a crap mother.
But actually, I look at mychildren now as teenagers and their
(31:36):
behavior and how they'refinding their way in the world tells
me I was not a crap mother andmy husband is not a crap father.
We created a balance thatproduced two relatively well rounded
humans who are doing prettywell at life from my perspective,
clearly biased and not backingaway from the judgment, not being
scared, not disengagingbecause it hurts. You kind of got
(31:59):
to sit with the suck. And Iknow that's a horribly American phrase,
but even when something feelshard and uncomfortable, you've got
to keep going through it.You've got to feel those emotions
and You've also got to callout things that are not fair. Right?
When these women would talk tome and they would say to me, you're
the one that travels all thetime. How do you feel? How do you
(32:19):
make this work? And I wouldtell them about the choices I had
made and the fact that myhusband was there to do things full
time, caring, responsibilitywith my children, they'd say, oh,
that's how you do it. Well,you're lucky then. And I took that
a few times and then I startedsaying, hang on, no, I'm not lucky.
(32:40):
We made some deliberate lifechoices that cost us financially.
My husband's income stopped,that cost us emotionally. It's hard
work being a full time parent.I absolutely respect and admire anybody
that has the patience, thepersistence, the sheer humanity that
it takes to actually engage.Particularly when the children are
(33:01):
very, very young and you can'thave a reasonable, rational conversation
with them, you are literallyresponding to their very basic needs.
I know I would have found thata challenge and I would have been
particularly stressed and nota particularly nice person to spend
time with had I been doingthose caring responsibilities. My
husband gave up what he wasdoing in life to take that on. And
(33:24):
yet people would say to me,oh, you're lucky. That's how you
do it. Someone else does itfor you. And I started to push back
on that. Not in a negativeway, just hang on, this isn't luck,
this is actually judgment. Wemade a decision, we didn't know if
it would work. It's teamwork.He does his bit, I do my bit. We
do some very different thingsin life to make the overall equation
(33:44):
work. And we're very open withour children, particularly as they
got older, about when we'restruggling and when we find it tough
and how our children, as theybecome teenage, can help us through
some of that. So I think aswell on the judgment, it's important
not to just accept it, but tosometimes respectfully challenge
(34:05):
somebody else's perspectivebecause they're only giving you their
view from their lifeexperience. And I respect other mothers
saying to me, I could neverleave my child for that amount of
time. I'm like, that's fair.You've made that choice, I've made
my choice. Let's both respectour choices, but let's not judge
each other, because neither ofus are less of a mother or less of
(34:26):
a parent for making thechoices that we've made. And don't
get me wrong, I've pushed backon judgment and it's not been Very
successful and I've had someparticularly hurtful comments made
as a result. But I've donewhat I've thought is right and I've
just wanted to help people seeit from a different perspective.
Thank you for sharing. I'mimagining that just a sheer financial
(34:48):
pressure of getting theincoming must be quite intense at
times, especially over 30years. I'm sure you would have had
periods where there ispressure on, you know, restructures
and just as part of any normalcareer there are times where you're
more at risk of losing yourjob. And I'm absolutely fascinated
in how you said you managed tobe present with the children. So
(35:11):
many of our leaders fellowssay they are super dedicated at work,
they really love the childrenbut they think about their children
all the time at work and Ithink about work all the time at
home. And I'm just intrigued.Being a breadwinner, being under
that type of pressure, how doyou manage to switch off, especially
in sales and big likedecision, you could lose, I'm sure
(35:32):
100,000 pound contract if themeeting tomorrow doesn't go well
or maybe even more.
Yeah, you're very intuitive.You're describing my life and we
haven't worked together for asignificant period of time. Discipline.
And again, this isn't a magicformula. I am terrible at multitasking.
I don't mind admitting thatnow. I don't think that makes me
a failure as a woman because Ido think it's somewhat of a myth
(35:55):
that we can all multitask atall times. I'll give you a practical
example. When I go on holidayswith my children and that's when
I've committed to be fullypresent for a week, I will get up
early in the morning becausethat's my choice. I'm not forcing
myself to do that. I am one ofthose really annoying people that's
a morning person. So I utilizetime that takes nothing away from
(36:17):
my children to check in withwork and understand what are the
priorities for today. Are theycovered by my team? What is likely
to be the risk today that Imight have to intervene or that there's
some kind of escalation that'snecessary. And I will take. I'm smiling
because people listening willjudge this. I will get up at five
(36:38):
and I will take between fiveand seven because that's when I do
my best thinking. Becauseyou've got to be really honest with
how you work work. You've gotto learn over time that you can't
do it all at all. Hours of theday, I'm wonderful in the morning
at creative thinking, after 9o'clock at night, I'm a little bit
of a vegetable. I can dotransactional stuff, right, if it's
(36:58):
necessary, but I don't thinkwell in the evenings and I recognize
that. So I play to mystrengths. So on a holiday, when
I want to be fully presentwith the children doing stuff during
the day, I will get up at 5o'clock. I will take time between
5 and 7 when nobody else in myfamily has any desire to be awake.
And I will do what I need todo to manage my anxiety for the day.
(37:23):
Let's be honest, I will checkin with emails, I will make sure
the world is not ending, andnine times out of 10, it's not ending
because people are replaceableat work. You're much less replaceable
in your family. But for me, Idon't feel any organization for whom
I've worked has ever obligatedme or expected me to do that. It's
a personal technique to managemy anxiety because otherwise I will
(37:46):
get distracted. I will getmajor FOMO because I'll know an important
meeting is happening or anegotiation is underway. But the
way I find not to think aboutit is I'll check in for those couple
of hours, understand the layof the land for the day, make any
inputs that I feel I need tomake. But actually, again, the more
senior I've got, the more Itrust my teams. You need to take
(38:08):
time to verify and make surethat everyone is clear on expectations
and doing what is expected.But once you've got that trust within
a team, I'll check in, I'llmake sure my team has the support
they need from me, and I willput my phone in a drawer. And that's
the honest, practical answerto your question. I wish for it to
be more eloquent andmeaningful, but I genuinely take
(38:31):
a bit of time, figure out thatthe world's not going to end without
me there, put the phone in thedrawer, and that is almost a symbolic
I am done. I'm done withchecking in at work. I've got a capable
team, they know what they'redoing, they've got the support they
need. And I switch, Iliterally switch my focus. And again,
it's not a magic formula. It'snot like I won't have a moment during
(38:53):
the day where I think, wonderhow that meeting's going, or perhaps
we've actually got to thatnumber in the negotiation. But it's
not fair on my children. Forme, to then take the phone out of
the drawer and check in themiddle of the day. I make explicit
commitments to my family andto my work team and I get them to
hold me to account. So as mychildren got older, it's harder,
(39:15):
obviously, when they'reyounger, but as they got older, particularly
in secondary school, I wouldsay to them, I'm going to come off
my phone at 7:00, we're goingto get out and do whatever it is
we had planned for that day. Iwill not look at that phone again
until after dinner. And Iscrewed up because we're perfectly
imperfect and my daughter willcall me out on it.
(39:36):
That's the beauty of havingteenagers. You will get feedback.
It is now. It is now. Like Isay, I more relied upon my husband
when they were younger becauseagain, I'd declare my intent to him.
I'd say, I'm going to catch upwith some stuff till 7am, then I'm
all yours for the day. And ifI inched towards the drawer to open
it to get my phone out,because we all have that moment where
(39:58):
you just, just, just let mecheck in, right? It's slightly addictive.
He give me a virtual slap onthe hand and obviously, like, ah,
you said you wouldn't do that.And. But I. Yes, fair, you're right.
And it becomes habit after awhile. I mean, what is it? It takes
21 days to build a habit. Itfeels weird and awkward at first,
but you have to set thoseboundaries and I've always found
(40:21):
it's really helpful. Like whenyour children are young, so small
children, more friends andpeers, and maybe your partner can
hold you to account. What'sreally powerful when your children
become older is get your ownchildren to hold you to account to
deliver on your promises. Youknow, we're going to go to the cinema
today and I am leaving myphone at home and I am not going
(40:42):
to pick up my phone untilafter we finish the evening meal
or whatever my commitment is.I will make it verbally to my children
now, now that they're olderand have them call me out if I'm
not meeting that. And again, Ihave the same expectation on them.
There are periods of the daywhere they put their phone away.
No phones at the table is arule. I think a lot of families try
and enforce that rule. Andagain, we all call each other out.
(41:06):
None of us are allowed to haveour phones at the dinner table when
we do get to sit down as afamily together. And I've heard my
daughter criticise my Husband.I've heard my husband call my son
out. You know, if anyonebrings their phone to the table,
it doesn't last more thanabout a minute before somebody calls
them out on it and we get backto doing what we said we'd do.
That's fantastic advice. I'minterested in your decision making
(41:31):
about career progression.Obviously, I have an agenda, as you
know, that I would like morepeople who have caring responsibilities
to be able to get to seniorroles if that's what they choose
to do. And I'm interestedwhether there was a decision that
you've made either yourself oras a family that has been really
instrumental to get to thatlevel of seniority in a sector that
(41:53):
isn't known for having tonsand tons of women in senior leadership.
Yes. I mean, the decision thatI made early in my career, around
the time my son was born, wasto always go for jobs that terrified
me. I made a decision to bescared. And what I do now is I encourage
(42:16):
other leaders to do the same.And this applies to most men and
women. But actually I found itmuch more powerful with female leaders
who are having doubts. And youwill know, you will know more than
me. There are so many studiesdone on the different approaches
that men and women take forapplying for roles and then for interviewing.
I have tried. I made adecision to try and approach applying
(42:39):
for roles like a man. And thatis not to say that applying for roles
like a woman is wrong. Iactually support the approach that
women take, which is they waittill they can do 98% of the role
before they'll put themselvesforward as ready. But I decided a
long time ago that why would Iever do a job that I think I can
do? And that sounds completelycounterintuitive, but if I apply
(43:03):
for a role that I know I cando, yes, that's safe and yes, I'll
deliver and I'll be credibleand I'll receive positive recognition
and feedback and it's much,much less scary, don't get me wrong.
But where is the learning andgrowth? So I made a decision back
in 2005 because I wasterrified by the prospect of being
a mum. It wasn't part of mylife plan, it was very much part
(43:26):
of my husband's life plan tohave a family. And it is something
to which I agreed on the basisthat I could still pursue my career.
So we did have thatconversation before starting a family
together. And again, I almostfelt braver once I was a parent because
I had so much more to proveand I had some at a human, and then
(43:48):
several years later, twohumans watching me live my life.
Because your children don't goby what you say, they learn by what
you do. And I made afundamental decision, and I've kept
to it for almost 20 years, toalways go for a job that terrified
me. And I've done thatrepeatedly. And I've gone for jobs
(44:09):
where maybe it's 50, 50. It'snever mathematical, but I know that
there's a core of the rolewhere I've got some expertise. So
I'm not gonna make an idiot ofmyself. I know enough in order to
be able to deliver. Butthere's enough in the role that I've
either never experienced or ismuch bigger than I've done before
(44:31):
or takes me to a level faroutside of my comfort zone. And if
a job has all of thoseelements, stereotypically, you'd
find a candidate going, well,I won't do that, because that's too
big and scary. I basicallychoose to terrify myself. That won't
be for everybody. Itabsolutely will not be for everybody.
(44:52):
But I've made those decisions,and every job that I've done, I'm
like, is it scary enough? Andthere was a recent role. So I've
been in sales or businessdevelopment or strategy for the majority
of my Rolls Royce career. Andthere was an opportunity in 2021,
just as we were coming out oflockdown, to move from a business
development role. So I was asenior vice president for India and
(45:15):
Southeast Asia at the time toa delivery role. So moving from winning
deals and campaigns intorunning engine programs. And I remember
getting a phone call and beingasked to come and do the role. And
I said no, because it was fartoo scary. And then I literally had
a word with myself thatevening. I literally took myself
(45:35):
into the corner and talked tomyself and went, you've just gone
against your principal rule.You've said no, because this is too
scary. And I think lockdownfundamentally changed our view on
life. And my husband,particularly early on, suffered terribly
with COVID And I'd had to takequite a bit of time out, caring for
(45:57):
him and reassuring ourchildren at the time. And I'd actually
done less work through 2020than typically. And for a moment,
it had not my confidence. Andso when this call came in 2021, I
went, no, no, I can't do it.It's too scary. Fortunately, they
didn't take me at my firstword. So I called back the following
day and said, I don't know whyyou've asked me to do the role. I
(46:17):
don't think I've got the rightexperience and there are far better
candidates in theorganization. But given that you
have belief in me, I havechosen to have belief in myself.
And yes, I will do this big,scary role. And it was terrifying.
For the first six months, Iwas overwhelmed. I asked myself on
a daily basis, what are youdoing? They're going to find out
(46:38):
very soon that you reallyweren't the right candidate for this
role. But it actually, and Iknow this sounds really trite, it's
not meant to. It actuallyturned out to be the best role of
my career.
Thank you for sharing that.That's very inspirational. Is there
any final words that you wouldlike to share with our listeners?
If nothing comes to mind,that's absolutely fine as well.
(47:00):
I'd love to share that we'reall enough at whatever stage of life
we're at, whatever we'retrying to balance, whether we've
chosen to work part time to bemore present with our children, or
whether we've chosen to workfull time and have our children supported
in other ways, whatever you'redoing, you are enough at that moment
(47:21):
in time. And I think thepeople that really worry about whether
they're getting it right arethe people who are getting it right
at the end of the day.
Well said. Thank you so much,Louise. It's been an absolute pleasure
to have you.
You're welcome. It's been apleasure to talk to you.
If people want to find outmore about your work, where should
they go?
LinkedIn would be a greatplace to start. I'm currently working
(47:41):
with IAG. I've got an updatedprofile on LinkedIn and I'm hoping
Varina to do a lot more workwith leaders plus. So I think LinkedIn
would be a great start andI'll share my handle as we promote
this podcast.
Thank you so much. And thankyou for volunteering to be a senior
leader mentor to someone inour community. It's much appreciated
that you're paying it forwardalso through this podcast. Thank
(48:02):
you.
You're welcome. And I thinkthat's a really good place to end
on, actually, because we'veall received help and I've never
had anybody that I've askedfor help say no. And so we all succeed
together. So we're all thereto lift each other up. And it's been
a real pleasure talking toyou. I appreciate you taking the
time today.
Likewise. I really appreciateyou listening. Thank you so much.
(48:25):
And I always love to hear fromour listeners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Verena Hefti and I'll be delighted
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
(48:46):
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment, podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chartingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast our Fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same, then please head over to
(49:08):
leadersplus.org/Fellowship iorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combinean ambitious career with young children
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male middle class peopleleading our organizations. We must
change this together and Ihope that many of you listening right
now will progress to the mostsenior leadership roles that you
like where you can make thedecisions that make our world a better
(00:44):
place. Outside of the podcast.I am the CEO and founder of the Social
enterprise Leaders Plus. Weexist to help working parents progress
their careers to seniorleadership in a way that works for
you and for your families. Wehave free events and resources on
leadersplus.org where you candownload helpful toolkits such as
(01:05):
on returning from maternityleave, share parental leave, securing
a promotion, dealing withworkload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family and you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program, be that becoming
more senior in their role,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impressed me so much
with the courage that theyinstill in each other to do what
is right for them withoutapologizing for having a family or
(02:13):
apologizing for wanting thattop job. Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship.
In this week's conversationI'm chatting to Louise Donaghey,
who soon will be one of oursenior leader mentors about being
the main breadwinner in thefamily, how to deal with judgment
(02:35):
from others, what she haslearned about practical strategies
for staying present with herfamily, and also her learning around
being vulnerable. I havereally enjoyed her frankness and
found the conversation veryinspiring for me personally. I'm
sure you will do too. A verywarm welcome Louise to The podcast.
It's great to have you withus. Why don't we start with you introducing
(02:58):
who you are, what you do forwork and who's in your family.
Thank you, Verena. It's apleasure to be here. My name's Louise
Donaghey. What I do for workcurrently is I'm the group head of
engines for InternationalAirlines Group. That is the parent
company for a number ofairlines, probably the best known
of which is British Airwaysand, and Iberia. It's a very recent
change for me. I joined thatorganization just three months ago.
(03:21):
My career is 30 years inaviation with 20 of those years being
in Rolls Royce. So Rolls Royceengines rather than Rolls Royce cars.
And I spent 10 years in thecivil business. So that's engines
that power airlines, aircraftand airlines. And I spent 10 years
in the defense business. Soengines that power fighter aircraft,
(03:43):
transport aircraft,helicopters. So 20 years with rolls
Royce engine manufacturing.Before that, I actually spent some
time serving in the Royal AirForce as an engineering officer.
So that's my last 30 years ofmy career. In my family, I have two
teenage children. My son is 19and my daughter is 16. She'll experience
(04:06):
her GCSEs this summer. AndI've been the primary income earner,
the sole breadwinner actually,since my children have been born.
And I found that to be inequal parts extremely rewarding and
extremely challenging andsometimes utterly heartbreaking.
But yeah, in my family, a 19year old son and a 16 year old daughter
(04:28):
and two dogs to just completethe family picture, very important.
The dogs are very important.And it sounds like you've been working
quite a male. I mean, I mighthave the wrong image here, but I'm
picturing it's a lot of men inthe industries that you've been working
in and you've learned toclearly thrive and excel in that
area really.
Well, your picture's entirelyaccurate. I've always been in a very
(04:51):
male dominated environment,right from my degree. So my degree
was aeronautical engineering.To put it into context, in my first
year there were 150 studentson the course, five women, and only
three of us made it through tograduation. So it's been very male
dominated since the early partof my career and I've made some huge
(05:13):
mistakes in that environment.So I don't mind sharing that. When
I first entered a very maledominated engineering environment,
my only role models, Roena,were men. So when I looked at a senior
level in the organizationsback 25, 30 years ago, I thought
that I had to behave like Aman in order to actually progress
(05:33):
and succeed. And I didn'treally have female role models. I
had role models within my ownfamily, my mum, my nana, my mum's
mum. But in the professionalenvironment in which I found myself,
I didn't have those femalerole models and I didn't really have
role models that showed me howbest to balance a young family with
(05:54):
actually progressing at pacethrough your career. So your insight's
really accurate. I'm glad tosay that I've noticed positive changes
through the 30 years that I'vespent in aviation and predominantly
engineering, but certainly itnowhere near represents society and
I find that an ongoingchallenge and a challenge that I'm
tackling head on where I canin the organizations where I work.
(06:17):
But yeah, it's very maledominated. And that's some of the
stories I want to share withyou today, actually is the stuff
that I've felt I've had tokeep hidden in order to not be judged
differently from my male colleagues.
Interesting. And there'salways such a tension. I mean, nowadays
if you look at LinkedIn, thereare quite a few people who are shouting
about how they're workingparent and there are even some influencers
(06:39):
who are in senior roles in thecorporate sectors, but then are also
blasting out pictures of howthey're breastfeeding during a business
call. And how have you foundcombining your mother identity with
your professional identity?Did you feel you had to keep the
mother identity hidden at thestart of your career?
(07:00):
I absolutely did. And I'm notsaying that that was right. That
was just the way that I feltat the time. And having gone along
that journey and maturedthrough experience, I reach out now
and help others not to feelthat way because I certainly felt.
And my son was born in 2005,so he'll be 20 this year. So it's.
(07:23):
It's been a journey that I'vebeen on for quite some time, but
I was a relatively youngparent and I was quite senior in
my career already at the time.So my son was born when I was a sales
director for the Rolls RoyceCivil business, so selling engines
and engine contracts toairlines, traveling the world at
the time. I was 27 when my sonwas born and I felt that I couldn't
(07:47):
share the challenges that Iwas having as a parent because my
colleagues would judge medifferently and would find me somehow
lacking in my dedication to mysales director role and my career.
And I say this with a smilenow, which is hard to see when you're
only hearing audio. I say itwith a smile now, because I realize
how foolish that assumptionwas, but I don't think I'm alone
(08:09):
in making it. And I was veryreticent, particularly when my children
were young, to talk about thefact that I had children and I was
trying to balance mycommitment to them as a mother with
also being competitive andviewed as credible in my professional
space. And I deliberately now,and it wasn't an easy lesson for
(08:31):
me to learn, I deliberatelymerged the two in my conversations
with my team and my peers andmy senior leadership team. Today
I do that. I did not do thatwhen my children were young because
I felt somehow that I shouldnot. And I wouldn't, for example,
have a picture of my childrenon my desk at work 20 years ago.
(08:53):
And that in no way meant thatI was ashamed of being a mother.
But I struggled to presentthat personality and get that personality
to integrate with thiscompetitive, ambitious, career driven
professional. And I reallydon't think that that should be the
reality now. But I suspect,Rowena, that it is still some people's
(09:14):
reality. And I was veryreluctant to talk about my family
at work in case I was judgedas being less than committed. And
yet I would see malecolleagues being judged positively
for having a picture of theirfamily, their partner, their children,
their dog. It almost provokedthe opposite reaction to the reaction
(09:38):
I thought that I was going tohave if I shared about that openly
so very much. When my childrenwere small and I wanted my career
to be big, I tried to separatethe two. And I think the tension
that I caused personally wasactually unhealthy.
So what do you know now thatyou didn't know those 20 years ago?
(10:01):
If you started again, I knowyou shared in an earlier conversation
we had that you weren't one ofthose women who said, oh, I always
will have a baby, and yes,it's part of my life plan, but you
decided to have children. Andthen if you now look back at that
moment, what would you advise yourself?
So many things. It's a greatquestion. What would I tell myself
(10:22):
then, knowing what I know now,I would do so many things differently.
I think one thing I wouldencourage myself 20 years ago to
embrace is the power ofvulnerability. And I've learned the
lesson, particularly throughthe last five to eight years, that
as a senior leader now, when Ishow up and I am vulnerable, it not
(10:46):
only gives everyone elsepermission to also be vulnerable,
but it inspires others thatyou don't have to have all the answers
and you don't have to haveeverything together all at Once.
Because guess what? Nobodydoes. And we've got an even bigger
challenge right now in 2025.When I look at my daughter growing
(11:07):
up, currently 16, you've gotall of the social media posts that
just present what they wantyou to see. And nobody's life is
perfect. We're all perfectlyimperfect. We're all messy, we're
all vulnerable. We all getstuff wrong probably more often than
we'll ever admit to anyone,not even ourselves. And so I think
one of the things that I wouldtell myself 20 years ago is there's
(11:30):
a power in your vulnerability.And the more that you share without
oversharing and getting to aplace that you're comfortable with,
actually, the more otherpeople are encouraged to share. And
it creates a really inclusiveenvironment in which people feel
safe to say, do you know what?I'm not on my A game today. I got
four hours sleep last nightbecause my son was sick through the
(11:53):
night, and I'm feeling prettyfrazzled, and I'm not sure I'm very
prepared for the next meetingthat's happening. And 20 years ago
me, or even 15 years ago me,when I had a toddler and my daughter
was born, I would have feltthat that was somehow weakness if
I had said that very openly tomy team, my peers, maybe even to
(12:14):
my manager. But actually, whatI've learned more recently is that
is a strength, being boldenough to say, I am not on my A game
today. I am human, and I amsuffering with sleep deprivation.
I'm worried about my childbecause they've been sick during
the night and I'm going toneed a bit of support today. And
(12:36):
I really like. It's not myconcept. A concept shared by Brenny
Brown, who's one of myfavorite writers, is that a relationship
is never 50 50, becausefundamentally at work, it's all about
relationships. So if you eversee Brene Brown talking about this,
it's the concept of amarriage, but I like to apply it
to a professional relationshipor the relationship with my manager
(12:59):
or the relationship with myleadership team. It is not every
day that we all bring 50 50.And it's being psychologically brave
enough to say on those dayswhere you don't quite have 50% to
give to the relationship,whether that's to your customer,
whether that's to yourleadership team, whether that's to
your peer, where you'reworking on a project together, it's
(13:21):
feeling okay to say, do youknow what? Today I've got 20%. And
they can rock up and be like,well, that's okay. I got you covered.
I got 80% today. We can makethis work. But if they rock up and
say, do you know what? I'veonly got 30% today. I've got a lot
going on at home. I've gotsome challenges with my children,
you say, let's be kind to eachother today. Let's not tackle the
big, hard stuff. We're bothhaving a rough time, so let's leave
(13:44):
that to a day where we've gotmore to give. So I think it's the
power of vulnerability. It'srole modeling to others that it's
okay not to have it alltogether. And it is talking about
the stuff that unites us aspeople, because that is authentic.
Right? Take any CEO of anyorganization, regardless of their
personal circumstance, theywill have days where they're not
(14:08):
at their best. And I wouldlove for everybody to be in an environment
where people can just say,when they're not at their best and
get the support that theyneed. And I probably just wasn't
brave enough to do that. WhenI started out with small children
and I wanted this big career,I almost thought the two were mutually
exclusive. And I don't believethat now for a minute. Verena. And
that was why it was importantto connect with you on this podcast.
(14:29):
Absolutely. Thank you forbeing so open. One thing that struck
me when we first spoke wasthat you were okay with being ambitious,
and that's. I think that'squite a rare thing. I feel there's
almost a bit of a backlash.Yes, we do all need work, life balance.
I certainly do. And we do wantto be present with our children,
(14:51):
have good relationships, butactually, I also want to. To be ambitious.
And we're recording this nowas I'm pregnant with my fourth. And
I just mentioned to you thatactually there is still this moment
where you think, oh, mygoodness, is it okay to want more?
Or should you just relax andstay at home? Which is absolutely
fine choice for some people ifthat's what they want to do. But
(15:13):
I'm interested in what's yourrelationship with ambition? Have
you always wanted to be withyour kids, or did you ever think
of giving up work?
It's a great question becauseyou said it exactly right. It's a
different answer foreverybody. And I think as working
women, as working parents, weshould just stop trying to find the
(15:33):
magic formula, because,spoiler alert, there is no magic
formula. It's different forabsolutely everybody. For me personally,
having children actuallyincreased my ambition because I wanted
to Prove for myself. I sufferwith anxiety, I suffer with a lot
of self doubt. I was bulliedthroughout my childhood for the way
(15:56):
that I looked and for beingdifferent. And that gave me an internal
voice that always says, you'renot good enough, you're not pretty
enough, you're not sportyenough, you won't succeed. And I've
battled with that. I'veembraced therapy, I've embraced life
coaching. I still strugglewith it, but having children actually
(16:17):
increased my ambition. Andagain, that is not the outcome for
everybody. And I respect that.Everybody makes different choices.
But for me, from the moment myson was born, my husband and I, we
don't have any family support.Our families live quite far away
from where we've chosen to befor work. My husband made the commitment
to give up his work and he wasa martial arts instructor. He was
(16:42):
one of those people that wasdoing for a career what they were
passionate about. And he gavethat up to care for our child. And
it was his personal choice.And we said, if it doesn't work out
and it drives you up the wallbecause you really want to be doing
your martial arts training,then we'll do something differently.
We will make it work. Whateverthe Excel spreadsheet says about
(17:04):
our finances, we'll find a wayto make it work. That was our commitment
as a partnership. But from theminute my son arrived and my husband
gave up his passion formartial arts and for teaching others,
particularly women andchildren, so he was teaching women
self defense courses andconfidence classes for children in
how to defend themselves indifficult situations. From the minute
(17:26):
he gave that up, I felt I wasworking for three people. And nobody
said that to me, that that wasthe expectation. That's the expectation
I put on myself. And I wantedto show my son what was possible
when you really went aftergoals, you know, meaningful goals.
And I wanted to show my sonhow it looked to fail and that failure
(17:47):
was okay. And I wanted to makemy husband proud that he was going
to be a full time carer for ababy, which at times can be the most
beautifully rewarding thingand at times can drive you absolutely
batshit crazy. Right? He waswilling to do all of that. So I doubled
down on my efforts at work. Iwanted to fundamentally make them
(18:07):
proud and prove that you canhave everything, not all at once.
Not all at once. I thinkthat's a complete fallacy that you
can have everything all atonce, but that following your dreams
was possible with the rightsupport network. And my support network
at that time was a slightlyterrified husband. Who had no idea
what it meant to look after ababy full time and a beautiful baby
(18:29):
boy, who was completelyoblivious to all of the decisions
that were being made on hisbehalf, but has thanked me later,
as he's progressed intoadulthood, for all the lessons he
learned as a result of how weset up. So my relationship with ambition
is very healthy, but I havefaced massive criticism for it. And
again, what would I say to myyounger self? Those people's opinions
(18:51):
really didn't matter. Theyhurt. At the time, I had judgment,
particularly from othermothers. When I would, for example,
take my son to a party theweekend because I was around and
I wanted to spend time withhim. I would show up at these parties
and it was predominantlymothers, and they would say to me,
(19:12):
where's John, my husband? AndI would say, I'm giving John a break
this weekend. I'm here. I'mgoing to spend time with my son.
And they would say, well,you're the one that travels all the
time. What does it feel liketo be away from your child? How do
you cope with that? And Ireally took that judgment to heart,
like somehow I wasn't doingwhat was expected of me as a mother.
(19:32):
And when I stepped back fromit, Varina I thought, my child has
everything he needs. It's justmainly coming from his dad. And that's
okay because I'm enabling thatto happen. And his dad is there at
every important event of hislife. And it would be the same if
it was a grandparent, a carer,a family friend, it doesn't matter.
(19:55):
But yet I feel like society,and I'm talking Western society.
So I was based in the US whensome of this judgment was happening.
I've also been based in the UKand had similar judgments. So maybe
I'm talking about Westernsociety, but I feel like there's
a harsher judgment on motherswho are ambitious than there is on
fathers. And that's not okay,is what it is. And life's not fair.
(20:16):
I get it. But my relationshipwith ambition is almost in spite
of all of the judgment thatI've encountered, almost to prove
the doubters wrong. But that'swhere I'm at. And I can only tell
you where I'm at personally,and that land with some people listening,
and some people will hate thatas an answer. But for me, my ambition
increased. I wanted to prove apoint. I wanted to set a great example
(20:40):
to my son and later mydaughter. And I also wanted to show
a family setup that maybestill is not stereotypical, but that
can work if you will sign upto the same outcome.
(25:00):
I think it is so important todo what works for you and what works
for your family. We have thiscommunity of leaders plus fellows,
so working parents who want toprogress their careers but also want
to have strong relationshipswith their children. Some of them
work part time, some of themwork full time. But I've heard from
them a number of times thatthose who choose a shorter maternity
(25:23):
or share parental leaves, thatthey get that judgment. And why are
you doing that? And I thinkit's such a personal thing. I spoke
to one person, one of oursenior leader mentors, Joanna Santinon,
and she said, well, actually,for me, it was much more important
to be present with my kidswhen they were teenagers, and it
was fine to hand over the babywhen it was three months old because
(25:45):
I didn't really like babies somuch. I couldn't agree more with
you. It's so important to doit in a way that works for you. Is
there anything that you'velearned, I mean, it's easy, I'm sure,
from hindsight to say that youlearn to cope with the judgment.
Is there anything else thatyou've learned in terms of responding
or not responding to thesecomments or to their looks that you
(26:06):
might get from other parentsor perhaps even colleagues at the
time?
Yes, I've definitely learned agreat deal. And I love that you've
got somebody within leadersplus that is brave enough to be honest
and say, actually, I don'tlike the baby face. And I think you
said it really well. You'vegot to select the solution that's
(26:28):
right for you, regardless ofother people's opinions and judgments,
no matter how much they hurt.And you need to play to your strengths.
I'm very direct and veryhonest, and that's not always welcome
in a female leader. I've beencalled aggressive rather than assertive
when I know if I'd exhibitedthat behavior as a man, it would
(26:49):
have certainly beencelebrated. So what can you do to
combat the judgment? Well, afew things that I've done, and I
think your other alumni alsosaid the same thing. I compartmentalized.
I am very present with mychildren when I'm with my children,
and I am very present with mywork when I'm with my work. And I
(27:10):
don't try to multitaskbecause, controversially, I am appalling
at multitasking. I just doeverything quite badly when I try
to do it all at once. So oneof the things I did to combat the
judgment is I would Always befully present with my children when
I was with them. Now, the factof the matter is I chose an 8020
model. I chose 80% of timewith my career in order to provide
(27:33):
the lifestyle that I thoughtwas what my children would thrive
in and how it would support myhusband. Because, let's be honest,
the reality of having apartner that gives up work is you
go from two incomes to one.And so there was an ambitious part
of me that wanted to providethe right environment and lifestyle
for my children and my husbandto thrive. And then I applied my
(27:53):
8020 rule. I said, 80% of mytime, I'm going to be working. I'm
going to be fully focused onmy work because my husband is fully
focused on my child or mychildren, depending upon what phase
we were at. But when I'm withmy children, whether that's one or
both, I will be fully present.I am not going to be that parent
that is on the phone readingemails while having a half an eye
(28:15):
on the football game or thegymnastics tournament or whatever
it is that you're there withyour child to do so. I would compartmentalize
and I would engage with theparents. Even if there was resistance
and judgment, I would keepengaging with them. Whenever I took
my child to a party or anevent or around to another child's
(28:39):
house for some time together,I would make sure to be absolutely
fully present and focused inthat moment. And for me, and this
is only for me, having thosefully focused moments of quality
for 20% of my time, I feel wasa better combination than being partially
present for 80% of my time.And whenever I would travel on work
(29:00):
controversial, I wouldn't callhome because I would be fully focused
on doing what I had to getdone at work so that I could be fully
focused on my family when Ireturned at the weekend. And again,
I would get judgments andcomments. How can you not phone home?
How can you not say goodnight?Well, at the time, if I think about
(29:20):
my travel when my son was veryyoung, that would have satisfied
a selfish need for me to maybehear his voice or hear the noise
that he would make when he wasnot speaking. And a little younger,
but it would have disruptedtheir nighttime routine. And I just
think the way to get around alot of the challenges that we create
for ourselves is clarity ofexpectations within the family unit.
(29:43):
I would say to my husband, andlatterly to my children, me not calling
you at nighttime is notbecause I don't think you're important.
It's because I'm putting yourneeds above my needs. My husband
could get that when they werereally young because he's an adult
and he would respect that. Andthat would be our operating model.
And as my children grow older,I'd explain it to them directly.
I'm not calling tonightbecause I want to give you and daddy
(30:06):
time to do the bedtime routineand I'm going to be out in a business
dinner and I would be callinglater and it would be disruptive
and it would be purely my needto hear your voice to satisfy how
I feel and to maybe assuagethat parental guilt. So I think to
combat some of the judgment,it's clarity of expectations in your
personal unit, whatever thatunit looks like, it's listening to
(30:30):
the judgments but not takingthem personally and continuing to
engage. Because after thatvery first birthday party experience
where they said, oh, you'rethe one that goes away, how do you
do that? How do you feel aneasy option would have been, well,
I'm not going to those eventsanymore. I'm not engaging with that
group of people. But Icontinued to engage because there's
ways in which you can actuallydemonstrate to people it's okay.
(30:51):
And I apologize to you in mypodcast because now my dog is barking
in the background.
Please don't apologize. I amdelighted. We've had a number of
babies gurgling during thepodcast and dogs and cats. So absolutely
no, no need to apologize.
No, I thought I'd set up for avery quiet, uninterrupted discussion
with you, Barina, but that's apuppy. It's a new puppy. And she
(31:15):
was just trying to make hervoice heard as we spoke about this.
So I think it is clearexpectations, compartmentalization
works for some people. Itcertainly worked for me, but it's
hard. I'm not going to pretendI spent some nights in hotel rooms
when I was traveling in tearsbecause I felt I was a crap mother.
But actually, I look at mychildren now as teenagers and their
(31:36):
behavior and how they'refinding their way in the world tells
me I was not a crap mother andmy husband is not a crap father.
We created a balance thatproduced two relatively well rounded
humans who are doing prettywell at life from my perspective,
clearly biased and not backingaway from the judgment, not being
scared, not disengagingbecause it hurts. You kind of got
(31:59):
to sit with the suck. And Iknow that's a horribly American phrase,
but even when something feelshard and uncomfortable, you've got
to keep going through it.You've got to feel those emotions
and You've also got to callout things that are not fair. Right?
When these women would talk tome and they would say to me, you're
the one that travels all thetime. How do you feel? How do you
(32:19):
make this work? And I wouldtell them about the choices I had
made and the fact that myhusband was there to do things full
time, caring, responsibilitywith my children, they'd say, oh,
that's how you do it. Well,you're lucky then. And I took that
a few times and then I startedsaying, hang on, no, I'm not lucky.
(32:40):
We made some deliberate lifechoices that cost us financially.
My husband's income stopped,that cost us emotionally. It's hard
work being a full time parent.I absolutely respect and admire anybody
that has the patience, thepersistence, the sheer humanity that
it takes to actually engage.Particularly when the children are
(33:01):
very, very young and you can'thave a reasonable, rational conversation
with them, you are literallyresponding to their very basic needs.
I know I would have found thata challenge and I would have been
particularly stressed and nota particularly nice person to spend
time with had I been doingthose caring responsibilities. My
husband gave up what he wasdoing in life to take that on. And
(33:24):
yet people would say to me,oh, you're lucky. That's how you
do it. Someone else does itfor you. And I started to push back
on that. Not in a negativeway, just hang on, this isn't luck,
this is actually judgment. Wemade a decision, we didn't know if
it would work. It's teamwork.He does his bit, I do my bit. We
do some very different thingsin life to make the overall equation
(33:44):
work. And we're very open withour children, particularly as they
got older, about when we'restruggling and when we find it tough
and how our children, as theybecome teenage, can help us through
some of that. So I think aswell on the judgment, it's important
not to just accept it, but tosometimes respectfully challenge
(34:05):
somebody else's perspectivebecause they're only giving you their
view from their lifeexperience. And I respect other mothers
saying to me, I could neverleave my child for that amount of
time. I'm like, that's fair.You've made that choice, I've made
my choice. Let's both respectour choices, but let's not judge
each other, because neither ofus are less of a mother or less of
(34:26):
a parent for making thechoices that we've made. And don't
get me wrong, I've pushed backon judgment and it's not been Very
successful and I've had someparticularly hurtful comments made
as a result. But I've donewhat I've thought is right and I've
just wanted to help people seeit from a different perspective.
Thank you for sharing. I'mimagining that just a sheer financial
(34:48):
pressure of getting theincoming must be quite intense at
times, especially over 30years. I'm sure you would have had
periods where there ispressure on, you know, restructures
and just as part of any normalcareer there are times where you're
more at risk of losing yourjob. And I'm absolutely fascinated
in how you said you managed tobe present with the children. So
(35:11):
many of our leaders fellowssay they are super dedicated at work,
they really love the childrenbut they think about their children
all the time at work and Ithink about work all the time at
home. And I'm just intrigued.Being a breadwinner, being under
that type of pressure, how doyou manage to switch off, especially
in sales and big likedecision, you could lose, I'm sure
(35:32):
100,000 pound contract if themeeting tomorrow doesn't go well
or maybe even more.
Yeah, you're very intuitive.You're describing my life and we
haven't worked together for asignificant period of time. Discipline.
And again, this isn't a magicformula. I am terrible at multitasking.
I don't mind admitting thatnow. I don't think that makes me
a failure as a woman because Ido think it's somewhat of a myth
(35:55):
that we can all multitask atall times. I'll give you a practical
example. When I go on holidayswith my children and that's when
I've committed to be fullypresent for a week, I will get up
early in the morning becausethat's my choice. I'm not forcing
myself to do that. I am one ofthose really annoying people that's
a morning person. So I utilizetime that takes nothing away from
(36:17):
my children to check in withwork and understand what are the
priorities for today. Are theycovered by my team? What is likely
to be the risk today that Imight have to intervene or that there's
some kind of escalation that'snecessary. And I will take. I'm smiling
because people listening willjudge this. I will get up at five
(36:38):
and I will take between fiveand seven because that's when I do
my best thinking. Becauseyou've got to be really honest with
how you work work. You've gotto learn over time that you can't
do it all at all. Hours of theday, I'm wonderful in the morning
at creative thinking, after 9o'clock at night, I'm a little bit
of a vegetable. I can dotransactional stuff, right, if it's
(36:58):
necessary, but I don't thinkwell in the evenings and I recognize
that. So I play to mystrengths. So on a holiday, when
I want to be fully presentwith the children doing stuff during
the day, I will get up at 5o'clock. I will take time between
5 and 7 when nobody else in myfamily has any desire to be awake.
And I will do what I need todo to manage my anxiety for the day.
(37:23):
Let's be honest, I will checkin with emails, I will make sure
the world is not ending, andnine times out of 10, it's not ending
because people are replaceableat work. You're much less replaceable
in your family. But for me, Idon't feel any organization for whom
I've worked has ever obligatedme or expected me to do that. It's
a personal technique to managemy anxiety because otherwise I will
(37:46):
get distracted. I will getmajor FOMO because I'll know an important
meeting is happening or anegotiation is underway. But the
way I find not to think aboutit is I'll check in for those couple
of hours, understand the layof the land for the day, make any
inputs that I feel I need tomake. But actually, again, the more
senior I've got, the more Itrust my teams. You need to take
(38:08):
time to verify and make surethat everyone is clear on expectations
and doing what is expected.But once you've got that trust within
a team, I'll check in, I'llmake sure my team has the support
they need from me, and I willput my phone in a drawer. And that's
the honest, practical answerto your question. I wish for it to
be more eloquent andmeaningful, but I genuinely take
(38:31):
a bit of time, figure out thatthe world's not going to end without
me there, put the phone in thedrawer, and that is almost a symbolic
I am done. I'm done withchecking in at work. I've got a capable
team, they know what they'redoing, they've got the support they
need. And I switch, Iliterally switch my focus. And again,
it's not a magic formula. It'snot like I won't have a moment during
(38:53):
the day where I think, wonderhow that meeting's going, or perhaps
we've actually got to thatnumber in the negotiation. But it's
not fair on my children. Forme, to then take the phone out of
the drawer and check in themiddle of the day. I make explicit
commitments to my family andto my work team and I get them to
hold me to account. So as mychildren got older, it's harder,
(39:15):
obviously, when they'reyounger, but as they got older, particularly
in secondary school, I wouldsay to them, I'm going to come off
my phone at 7:00, we're goingto get out and do whatever it is
we had planned for that day. Iwill not look at that phone again
until after dinner. And Iscrewed up because we're perfectly
imperfect and my daughter willcall me out on it.
(39:36):
That's the beauty of havingteenagers. You will get feedback.
It is now. It is now. Like Isay, I more relied upon my husband
when they were younger becauseagain, I'd declare my intent to him.
I'd say, I'm going to catch upwith some stuff till 7am, then I'm
all yours for the day. And ifI inched towards the drawer to open
it to get my phone out,because we all have that moment where
(39:58):
you just, just, just let mecheck in, right? It's slightly addictive.
He give me a virtual slap onthe hand and obviously, like, ah,
you said you wouldn't do that.And. But I. Yes, fair, you're right.
And it becomes habit after awhile. I mean, what is it? It takes
21 days to build a habit. Itfeels weird and awkward at first,
but you have to set thoseboundaries and I've always found
(40:21):
it's really helpful. Like whenyour children are young, so small
children, more friends andpeers, and maybe your partner can
hold you to account. What'sreally powerful when your children
become older is get your ownchildren to hold you to account to
deliver on your promises. Youknow, we're going to go to the cinema
today and I am leaving myphone at home and I am not going
(40:42):
to pick up my phone untilafter we finish the evening meal
or whatever my commitment is.I will make it verbally to my children
now, now that they're olderand have them call me out if I'm
not meeting that. And again, Ihave the same expectation on them.
There are periods of the daywhere they put their phone away.
No phones at the table is arule. I think a lot of families try
and enforce that rule. Andagain, we all call each other out.
(41:06):
None of us are allowed to haveour phones at the dinner table when
we do get to sit down as afamily together. And I've heard my
daughter criticise my Husband.I've heard my husband call my son
out. You know, if anyonebrings their phone to the table,
it doesn't last more thanabout a minute before somebody calls
them out on it and we get backto doing what we said we'd do.
That's fantastic advice. I'minterested in your decision making
(41:31):
about career progression.Obviously, I have an agenda, as you
know, that I would like morepeople who have caring responsibilities
to be able to get to seniorroles if that's what they choose
to do. And I'm interestedwhether there was a decision that
you've made either yourself oras a family that has been really
instrumental to get to thatlevel of seniority in a sector that
(41:53):
isn't known for having tonsand tons of women in senior leadership.
Yes. I mean, the decision thatI made early in my career, around
the time my son was born, wasto always go for jobs that terrified
me. I made a decision to bescared. And what I do now is I encourage
(42:16):
other leaders to do the same.And this applies to most men and
women. But actually I found itmuch more powerful with female leaders
who are having doubts. And youwill know, you will know more than
me. There are so many studiesdone on the different approaches
that men and women take forapplying for roles and then for interviewing.
I have tried. I made adecision to try and approach applying
(42:39):
for roles like a man. And thatis not to say that applying for roles
like a woman is wrong. Iactually support the approach that
women take, which is they waittill they can do 98% of the role
before they'll put themselvesforward as ready. But I decided a
long time ago that why would Iever do a job that I think I can
do? And that sounds completelycounterintuitive, but if I apply
(43:03):
for a role that I know I cando, yes, that's safe and yes, I'll
deliver and I'll be credibleand I'll receive positive recognition
and feedback and it's much,much less scary, don't get me wrong.
But where is the learning andgrowth? So I made a decision back
in 2005 because I wasterrified by the prospect of being
a mum. It wasn't part of mylife plan, it was very much part
(43:26):
of my husband's life plan tohave a family. And it is something
to which I agreed on the basisthat I could still pursue my career.
So we did have thatconversation before starting a family
together. And again, I almostfelt braver once I was a parent because
I had so much more to proveand I had some at a human, and then
(43:48):
several years later, twohumans watching me live my life.
Because your children don't goby what you say, they learn by what
you do. And I made afundamental decision, and I've kept
to it for almost 20 years, toalways go for a job that terrified
me. And I've done thatrepeatedly. And I've gone for jobs
(44:09):
where maybe it's 50, 50. It'snever mathematical, but I know that
there's a core of the rolewhere I've got some expertise. So
I'm not gonna make an idiot ofmyself. I know enough in order to
be able to deliver. Butthere's enough in the role that I've
either never experienced or ismuch bigger than I've done before
(44:31):
or takes me to a level faroutside of my comfort zone. And if
a job has all of thoseelements, stereotypically, you'd
find a candidate going, well,I won't do that, because that's too
big and scary. I basicallychoose to terrify myself. That won't
be for everybody. Itabsolutely will not be for everybody.
(44:52):
But I've made those decisions,and every job that I've done, I'm
like, is it scary enough? Andthere was a recent role. So I've
been in sales or businessdevelopment or strategy for the majority
of my Rolls Royce career. Andthere was an opportunity in 2021,
just as we were coming out oflockdown, to move from a business
development role. So I was asenior vice president for India and
(45:15):
Southeast Asia at the time toa delivery role. So moving from winning
deals and campaigns intorunning engine programs. And I remember
getting a phone call and beingasked to come and do the role. And
I said no, because it was fartoo scary. And then I literally had
a word with myself thatevening. I literally took myself
(45:35):
into the corner and talked tomyself and went, you've just gone
against your principal rule.You've said no, because this is too
scary. And I think lockdownfundamentally changed our view on
life. And my husband,particularly early on, suffered terribly
with COVID And I'd had to takequite a bit of time out, caring for
(45:57):
him and reassuring ourchildren at the time. And I'd actually
done less work through 2020than typically. And for a moment,
it had not my confidence. Andso when this call came in 2021, I
went, no, no, I can't do it.It's too scary. Fortunately, they
didn't take me at my firstword. So I called back the following
day and said, I don't know whyyou've asked me to do the role. I
(46:17):
don't think I've got the rightexperience and there are far better
candidates in theorganization. But given that you
have belief in me, I havechosen to have belief in myself.
And yes, I will do this big,scary role. And it was terrifying.
For the first six months, Iwas overwhelmed. I asked myself on
a daily basis, what are youdoing? They're going to find out
(46:38):
very soon that you reallyweren't the right candidate for this
role. But it actually, and Iknow this sounds really trite, it's
not meant to. It actuallyturned out to be the best role of
my career.
Thank you for sharing that.That's very inspirational. Is there
any final words that you wouldlike to share with our listeners?
If nothing comes to mind,that's absolutely fine as well.
(47:00):
I'd love to share that we'reall enough at whatever stage of life
we're at, whatever we'retrying to balance, whether we've
chosen to work part time to bemore present with our children, or
whether we've chosen to workfull time and have our children supported
in other ways, whatever you'redoing, you are enough at that moment
(47:21):
in time. And I think thepeople that really worry about whether
they're getting it right arethe people who are getting it right
at the end of the day.
Well said. Thank you so much,Louise. It's been an absolute pleasure
to have you.
You're welcome. It's been apleasure to talk to you.
If people want to find outmore about your work, where should
they go?
LinkedIn would be a greatplace to start. I'm currently working
(47:41):
with IAG. I've got an updatedprofile on LinkedIn and I'm hoping
Varina to do a lot more workwith leaders plus. So I think LinkedIn
would be a great start andI'll share my handle as we promote
this podcast.
Thank you so much. And thankyou for volunteering to be a senior
leader mentor to someone inour community. It's much appreciated
that you're paying it forwardalso through this podcast. Thank
(48:02):
you.
You're welcome. And I thinkthat's a really good place to end
on, actually, because we'veall received help and I've never
had anybody that I've askedfor help say no. And so we all succeed
together. So we're all thereto lift each other up. And it's been
a real pleasure talking toyou. I appreciate you taking the
time today.
Likewise. I really appreciateyou listening. Thank you so much.
(48:25):
And I always love to hear fromour listeners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Verena Hefti and I'll be delighted
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
(48:46):
leave a review and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment, podcasting is still avery, very male dominated environment.
Most of the top chartingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast our Fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same, then please head over to
(49:08):
leadersplus.org/Fellowship iorder to get access to a community
of support to help you combinean ambitious career with young children
together with people who haveyour back. See you next week.
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