October 3, 2023 • 14 mins
In today's episode, I speak with Dr. Madeline McAllister, senior Curator of Maritime Archaeology at the Queensland Museum and James Cook University in Townsville, Australia.
Dr McAllister, or Maddy as she's called, focuses her work on historic shipwrecks and underwater archaeology in Australasia, with a special interest in shipwrecks on the Great Barrier Reef. And this comes as no surprise as her offices look out over the water in eastern Australia, where the Great Barrier Reef lies just offshore.
I find maritime archaeology fascinating as it lies at the nexus of history and the ocean, two of my passions. But it takes a good storyteller to make those lost shipwrecks engaging, nd Maddy's enthusiasm and sense of humor brought the ideas of maritime archaeology to life.
And so Maddy talked about how her grandfather had a deep impact on her life's path in the ocean, a moment where everything seemed to come together as she dove a wreck called the Rapid in Western Australia on Ningaloo Reef, and how underwater archaeology can inform our understanding of human society far beyond the water.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jason Elias (00:08):
Hi and welcome to the Big Deep podcast.
Big Deep is a podcast aboutpeople who have a connection to
the ocean, people for whom thatconnection is so strong it
defines some aspect of theirlife.
Over the course of this serieswe'll talk to all sorts of
people and in each episode we'llexplore the deeper meaning of
(00:29):
that connection.
Today I speak with a maritimearchaeologist who has a passion
for uncovering the real storiesof wooden shipwrecks on reefs
across Australia.
Hello, this is your host, jasonElias.
Welcome to the Big Deep podcast.
(00:51):
In today's episode I speak withDr Madeline McAllister, senior
Curator of Maritime Archaeologyat the Queensland Museum and
James Cook University inTownsville, australia.
Dr McAllister, or Maddie asshe's called, focuses her work
on historic shipwrecks andunderwater archaeology in
Australasia, with a specialinterest in shipwrecks on the
Great Barrier Reef, which comesas no surprise as her offices
(01:14):
look out over the water ineastern Australia where the
Great Barrier Reef flies justoffshore.
I find maritime archaeologyfascinating as it lies at the
nexus of history and the ocean,two of my personal passions.
But it takes a good storytellerto make those lost shipwrecks
engaging.
And Maddie's enthusiasm andsense of humor brought the ideas
of maritime archaeology to life.
(01:35):
And so Maddie talked about howher grandfather had a deep
impact on her life's path in theocean a moment where everything
seemed to come together as shedove a wreck called the Rapid in
Western Australia on NingalooReef, and how underwater
archaeology can inform ourunderstanding of human society
far beyond the water.
Maddy McAllister (01:55):
My name is Maddie McAllister and I'm a
maritime archaeologist, so Istudy shipwrecks, but
particularly I'm the seniorcurator of maritime archaeology
at the Queensland Museum inAustralia.
Jason Elias (02:09):
Can you tell me a bit about where you grew up and
when you remember your firstconnection to the ocean?
Maddy McAllister (02:14):
I think my first memories really are being
probably about four or fiveyears old and staying at my
grandparents' house on the beachdown in the southwest of
Australia.
My granddad had an old lobsterboat and he would go fishing all
day and when I was too young tojoin him, we'd wait watching
(02:37):
from the house so to see theboat appear on the horizon.
He was an English Welsh farmerand farmed in Australia for a
couple of decades and thenretired to the beach.
He would wander around with awalking stick and one of those
hats, like a peeky blinders hat,and he'd always tell us stories
(03:01):
, and I know that the aim of hisstories was to scare us as kids
out of entertainment forhimself, so they were stories
about pirates or shipsdisappearing or a stormy night.
As a child you have thatwonderful imagination and it was
about putting yourself in theboots of people on ships and
(03:24):
imagining what their lives wouldhave been like and who they
were and where they came from.
Australia, like many placesaround the world, were a
colonial nation and a lot of ushave travelled from a long way
away.
So it was imagining thebackgrounds behind these people
(03:46):
and maybe even wonder at thesefantastical wooden ships that
inspired wonder in me aboutseafaring.
So not only having thatwonderful connection with
fishing and the beach and a lovefor the sea, but then having
interwoven into it these mythsand legends and stories about
(04:09):
seafaring that are very hauntingand triggered me to want to
know more about what it wouldhave been like 300 years ago to
be on those ships, to be in astorm.
So I guess that's why he is aseminal figure for me.
In my childhood he started itall really.
Jason Elias (04:27):
So obviously your grandfather had a deep impact on
your young life and maybe insome ways shaped your life path,
and I can't help but wonder ifsome of the stories he told you
late at night somehow capturedyour young mind.
You've talked in the past abouthow storytelling is a large
part of why you like maritimearchaeology, and I'm wondering
(04:48):
whether there was a time whenmaybe things shifted to your own
personal connection to theshipwrecks, perhaps a moment
when you realised how you werebecoming part of the legacy of
storytellers about the sea.
Maddy McAllister (05:02):
I spent quite a few years learning about ship
construction, learning aboutfamous shipwrecks in Australia,
and in 2012, I was team memberon an expedition up to Ningalow
Reef in Western Australia and,in particular, revisit a
(05:22):
shipwreck called the Rapid,which sank in 1811, was an
American-China trader that hitthe coast and was carrying a
large amount of silver bullion.
So to hide the ship, thesurvivors burnt it down to the
waterline.
They excavated it in the 80s.
(05:46):
Everything except the ship.
I kind of missed that payday ofa lot of the big excavations in
Australia where they got allthe artifacts out and found
these fascinating stories.
But I finally had thisopportunity to join this field
team and go out and dive onRapid, which I'd read about.
(06:12):
So jumped off the side of theboat and descended with the dive
team when off we go, withoutdrawing boards and cameras,
doing a sort of check of thewhole site to see how it
survived over the last decade.
And I swam past this bit of theship which is the side of the
(06:35):
hull, so out of planking of theship, the frames in the middle
and the inner planking, it hadthis beautiful copper bolt
through it that had been sandedby the sand movement and so it
was gold and shiny and I think Imust have sat staring at this
(07:02):
one bit of the ship for about 20minutes and all of a sudden in
front of me I saw these framesand this planking and the ship
just seemed to all fall together.
I got it like I got whyshipwrecks can tell us those
(07:24):
stories.
Yeah, it was a moment ofrecognition of the site and what
I could do and I could make alife of this and there's so much
here to still tell and it'ssitting right here.
Jason Elias (07:50):
Wow, that was a great explanation of what
intrigues you about these wrecks.
So the other side of thisstorytelling is also about the
science and what we can learnabout human society in history
from these ships that were lost.
What, for you, is the value insearching out and revealing the
stories behind them?
Maddy McAllister (08:11):
There's stories out there that aren't as
glamorous but they may give usincredible clues.
For example, one that I'mworking on at the moment is a
recently located wreck in thefar north and it's on this
little reef called Five Reefsand all that's left on it is a
scatter of ballast stone, someiron bits and pieces that are
(08:35):
now cemented into the reef, somecopper sheeting and this
wonderful milling stone andlooking at that it looks like
it's from our Asian neighbors.
It has a more rice mill styleto it and that's all that's left
.
So I think it's probably fromthe 1800s, but I think it was
(08:57):
carrying cargo and passengersthat represent Australia at the
time and I don't think it'snecessarily just white colonial
Australians on this ship.
It's likely that, as peoplecoming from Indonesia or from
our neighboring countries andtravelling to Australia, maybe
(09:17):
some of that is in the clue ofthe rice mill stone.
So I really love the storiesthat are waiting to be told and
the little wrecks that might nothave the exciting people
association with it are cluesthat may tell us a great story
and fills a huge gap in ourhistory.
Jason Elias (09:36):
Yeah, I love how that illuminates stories that
might not have been part of thisstandard narrative, and I can
understand how this engages youintellectually.
But now I want to ask is theresome deeper, underlying reason
you are drawn to wrecks whichessentially are places where a
disaster happened, and, if so,what is the meaning of that for
you, and are there some deeperunderstandings we can take from
(09:59):
that?
Maddy McAllister (10:03):
I have this crazy fascination with how
dangerous the ocean can be, andI think shipwrecks are the
epitome of that.
They're a safe vessel that hadpeople travelling on it and
(10:26):
something horrible went wrongand is a reminder of just how
powerful the ocean can be.
You almost don't ever see thatas much as when you're looking
at a shipwreck site, thanks toHollywood.
When I say shipwreck, peopleoften think of a pirate galleon
(10:52):
sitting nicely on the sea floorwith its sails still billowing
and ropes still hanging.
While there are examples ofthat, 99% of shipwrecks look
much more like an aircraft.
You know, 100 years after awreck hits that reef, all that
(11:16):
might be left are bits of copperand stones and the rest is
completely gone.
You always hope that you'll findsomething that gives you that
individual story.
You can place it to a human,that you can recreate their life
.
One can resonate with that insome way.
(11:39):
But often we don't have that.
What we have is parts of theship that give us clues about
seafaring culture.
We chase these gaps that aren'tin our written record.
They're lost to history.
(11:59):
But we can put it back togetherand with over 600 shipwrecks
along the Great Barrier Reefwhich all look like that
splattered scatter of artefacts.
It's a recognition of just howfragile we are, and I think it
(12:30):
really makes you feel human.
Jason Elias (12:37):
Finally we end every interview and every
episode with a single open-endedquestion.
We ask everyone we talk to whatdoes the ocean mean to you?
Maddy McAllister (12:48):
I spend days and weeks in a lab, in an
archive, working on books,reading about the ocean, reading
about ships, and it's thosetimes when I get to go out and
completely submerge myself inthe water, whether it's a wreck
or it's just the reef, it's likemy temple in a way.
I go there and the ocean reset.
(13:08):
It's me.
Jason Elias (13:13):
Thanks for listening to the Big Deep
podcast.
Next time on Big Deep.
Kinga Phillips (13:19):
Seeing a tiger shark in the water and being
able to swim effortlessly nextto it, or having a young hunk
back, approach you and start tospin and then mimic your
movements.
There's something about thatthat is every child's fantasy,
and I tingle at the idea thatthere are still storylines that
we have to be discovered.
Jason Elias (13:40):
We really appreciate you being on this
journey into the Big Deep as weexplore an ocean of stories.
If you like what we're doing,please make sure to subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Also, please find us on thesocials where you can like and
comment, because thosesubscribes, likes and comments
really make a difference.
For more content from ourinterviews in our series, photos
of every guest or just to getin touch, please reach out at
(14:01):
our website, bigdeepcom Plus.
If you know someone you thinkwe should talk to, please let us
know at our Big Deep website,as we are always looking to hear
more stories from interestingpeople who are deeply connected
to our world's oceans.
Thanks again for joining us.
Hi and welcome to the Big Deep podcast.
Big Deep is a podcast aboutpeople who have a connection to
the ocean, people for whom thatconnection is so strong it
defines some aspect of theirlife.
Over the course of this serieswe'll talk to all sorts of
people and in each episode we'llexplore the deeper meaning of
(00:29):
that connection.
Today I speak with a maritimearchaeologist who has a passion
for uncovering the real storiesof wooden shipwrecks on reefs
across Australia.
Hello, this is your host, jasonElias.
Welcome to the Big Deep podcast.
(00:51):
In today's episode I speak withDr Madeline McAllister, senior
Curator of Maritime Archaeologyat the Queensland Museum and
James Cook University inTownsville, australia.
Dr McAllister, or Maddie asshe's called, focuses her work
on historic shipwrecks andunderwater archaeology in
Australasia, with a specialinterest in shipwrecks on the
Great Barrier Reef, which comesas no surprise as her offices
(01:14):
look out over the water ineastern Australia where the
Great Barrier Reef flies justoffshore.
I find maritime archaeologyfascinating as it lies at the
nexus of history and the ocean,two of my personal passions.
But it takes a good storytellerto make those lost shipwrecks
engaging.
And Maddie's enthusiasm andsense of humor brought the ideas
of maritime archaeology to life.
(01:35):
And so Maddie talked about howher grandfather had a deep
impact on her life's path in theocean a moment where everything
seemed to come together as shedove a wreck called the Rapid in
Western Australia on NingalooReef, and how underwater
archaeology can inform ourunderstanding of human society
far beyond the water.
Maddy McAllister (01:55):
My name is Maddie McAllister and I'm a
maritime archaeologist, so Istudy shipwrecks, but
particularly I'm the seniorcurator of maritime archaeology
at the Queensland Museum inAustralia.
Jason Elias (02:09):
Can you tell me a bit about where you grew up and
when you remember your firstconnection to the ocean?
Maddy McAllister (02:14):
I think my first memories really are being
probably about four or fiveyears old and staying at my
grandparents' house on the beachdown in the southwest of
Australia.
My granddad had an old lobsterboat and he would go fishing all
day and when I was too young tojoin him, we'd wait watching
(02:37):
from the house so to see theboat appear on the horizon.
He was an English Welsh farmerand farmed in Australia for a
couple of decades and thenretired to the beach.
He would wander around with awalking stick and one of those
hats, like a peeky blinders hat,and he'd always tell us stories
(03:01):
, and I know that the aim of hisstories was to scare us as kids
out of entertainment forhimself, so they were stories
about pirates or shipsdisappearing or a stormy night.
As a child you have thatwonderful imagination and it was
about putting yourself in theboots of people on ships and
(03:24):
imagining what their lives wouldhave been like and who they
were and where they came from.
Australia, like many placesaround the world, were a
colonial nation and a lot of ushave travelled from a long way
away.
So it was imagining thebackgrounds behind these people
(03:46):
and maybe even wonder at thesefantastical wooden ships that
inspired wonder in me aboutseafaring.
So not only having thatwonderful connection with
fishing and the beach and a lovefor the sea, but then having
interwoven into it these mythsand legends and stories about
(04:09):
seafaring that are very hauntingand triggered me to want to
know more about what it wouldhave been like 300 years ago to
be on those ships, to be in astorm.
So I guess that's why he is aseminal figure for me.
In my childhood he started itall really.
Jason Elias (04:27):
So obviously your grandfather had a deep impact on
your young life and maybe insome ways shaped your life path,
and I can't help but wonder ifsome of the stories he told you
late at night somehow capturedyour young mind.
You've talked in the past abouthow storytelling is a large
part of why you like maritimearchaeology, and I'm wondering
(04:48):
whether there was a time whenmaybe things shifted to your own
personal connection to theshipwrecks, perhaps a moment
when you realised how you werebecoming part of the legacy of
storytellers about the sea.
Maddy McAllister (05:02):
I spent quite a few years learning about ship
construction, learning aboutfamous shipwrecks in Australia,
and in 2012, I was team memberon an expedition up to Ningalow
Reef in Western Australia and,in particular, revisit a
(05:22):
shipwreck called the Rapid,which sank in 1811, was an
American-China trader that hitthe coast and was carrying a
large amount of silver bullion.
So to hide the ship, thesurvivors burnt it down to the
waterline.
They excavated it in the 80s.
(05:46):
Everything except the ship.
I kind of missed that payday ofa lot of the big excavations in
Australia where they got allthe artifacts out and found
these fascinating stories.
But I finally had thisopportunity to join this field
team and go out and dive onRapid, which I'd read about.
(06:12):
So jumped off the side of theboat and descended with the dive
team when off we go, withoutdrawing boards and cameras,
doing a sort of check of thewhole site to see how it
survived over the last decade.
And I swam past this bit of theship which is the side of the
(06:35):
hull, so out of planking of theship, the frames in the middle
and the inner planking, it hadthis beautiful copper bolt
through it that had been sandedby the sand movement and so it
was gold and shiny and I think Imust have sat staring at this
(07:02):
one bit of the ship for about 20minutes and all of a sudden in
front of me I saw these framesand this planking and the ship
just seemed to all fall together.
I got it like I got whyshipwrecks can tell us those
(07:24):
stories.
Yeah, it was a moment ofrecognition of the site and what
I could do and I could make alife of this and there's so much
here to still tell and it'ssitting right here.
Jason Elias (07:50):
Wow, that was a great explanation of what
intrigues you about these wrecks.
So the other side of thisstorytelling is also about the
science and what we can learnabout human society in history
from these ships that were lost.
What, for you, is the value insearching out and revealing the
stories behind them?
Maddy McAllister (08:11):
There's stories out there that aren't as
glamorous but they may give usincredible clues.
For example, one that I'mworking on at the moment is a
recently located wreck in thefar north and it's on this
little reef called Five Reefsand all that's left on it is a
scatter of ballast stone, someiron bits and pieces that are
(08:35):
now cemented into the reef, somecopper sheeting and this
wonderful milling stone andlooking at that it looks like
it's from our Asian neighbors.
It has a more rice mill styleto it and that's all that's left
.
So I think it's probably fromthe 1800s, but I think it was
(08:57):
carrying cargo and passengersthat represent Australia at the
time and I don't think it'snecessarily just white colonial
Australians on this ship.
It's likely that, as peoplecoming from Indonesia or from
our neighboring countries andtravelling to Australia, maybe
(09:17):
some of that is in the clue ofthe rice mill stone.
So I really love the storiesthat are waiting to be told and
the little wrecks that might nothave the exciting people
association with it are cluesthat may tell us a great story
and fills a huge gap in ourhistory.
Jason Elias (09:36):
Yeah, I love how that illuminates stories that
might not have been part of thisstandard narrative, and I can
understand how this engages youintellectually.
But now I want to ask is theresome deeper, underlying reason
you are drawn to wrecks whichessentially are places where a
disaster happened, and, if so,what is the meaning of that for
you, and are there some deeperunderstandings we can take from
(09:59):
that?
Maddy McAllister (10:03):
I have this crazy fascination with how
dangerous the ocean can be, andI think shipwrecks are the
epitome of that.
They're a safe vessel that hadpeople travelling on it and
(10:26):
something horrible went wrongand is a reminder of just how
powerful the ocean can be.
You almost don't ever see thatas much as when you're looking
at a shipwreck site, thanks toHollywood.
When I say shipwreck, peopleoften think of a pirate galleon
(10:52):
sitting nicely on the sea floorwith its sails still billowing
and ropes still hanging.
While there are examples ofthat, 99% of shipwrecks look
much more like an aircraft.
You know, 100 years after awreck hits that reef, all that
(11:16):
might be left are bits of copperand stones and the rest is
completely gone.
You always hope that you'll findsomething that gives you that
individual story.
You can place it to a human,that you can recreate their life
.
One can resonate with that insome way.
(11:39):
But often we don't have that.
What we have is parts of theship that give us clues about
seafaring culture.
We chase these gaps that aren'tin our written record.
They're lost to history.
(11:59):
But we can put it back togetherand with over 600 shipwrecks
along the Great Barrier Reefwhich all look like that
splattered scatter of artefacts.
It's a recognition of just howfragile we are, and I think it
(12:30):
really makes you feel human.
Jason Elias (12:37):
Finally we end every interview and every
episode with a single open-endedquestion.
We ask everyone we talk to whatdoes the ocean mean to you?
Maddy McAllister (12:48):
I spend days and weeks in a lab, in an
archive, working on books,reading about the ocean, reading
about ships, and it's thosetimes when I get to go out and
completely submerge myself inthe water, whether it's a wreck
or it's just the reef, it's likemy temple in a way.
I go there and the ocean reset.
(13:08):
It's me.
Jason Elias (13:13):
Thanks for listening to the Big Deep
podcast.
Next time on Big Deep.
Kinga Phillips (13:19):
Seeing a tiger shark in the water and being
able to swim effortlessly nextto it, or having a young hunk
back, approach you and start tospin and then mimic your
movements.
There's something about thatthat is every child's fantasy,
and I tingle at the idea thatthere are still storylines that
we have to be discovered.
Jason Elias (13:40):
We really appreciate you being on this
journey into the Big Deep as weexplore an ocean of stories.
If you like what we're doing,please make sure to subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Also, please find us on thesocials where you can like and
comment, because thosesubscribes, likes and comments
really make a difference.
For more content from ourinterviews in our series, photos
of every guest or just to getin touch, please reach out at
(14:01):
our website, bigdeepcom Plus.
If you know someone you thinkwe should talk to, please let us
know at our Big Deep website,as we are always looking to hear
more stories from interestingpeople who are deeply connected
to our world's oceans.
Thanks again for joining us.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.