Ep. 70 - Brewing Success: A New Era of Beverages

Craft beer enthusiasts, entrepreneurs, and curious minds alike won't want to miss our lively chat with Dr. Jesse Core, the visionary behind Scarlet Letter Beverage Company. Jesse shares his incredible journey from a college passion for brewing to establishing Core Beer in 2009, amidst the challenges of the Great Recession. With anecdotes brimming with laughter and wisdom, Jesse unravels the highs and lows of his business ventures, including the rapid rise and near-collapse of his pub endeavors. This episode promises a glimpse into the resilience and creativity required to turn a side hobby into a flourishing enterprise.

In a spirited exploration of the beverage industry's dynamic landscape, Jesse guides us through the evolution of craft beer and the exciting innovations in hard seltzers and teas. Hear first-hand about the challenges small brewers face in a market dominated by giants, and the satisfaction derived from crafting unique, personal brews. We reflect on the peculiarities of the craft beer scene, from inconsistent service to quirky beer flavors, while emphasizing the importance of adaptability and the thrill of creating something truly new.

Finally, our discussion broadens to the symbiotic relationship between academia and practical business, underscoring the need for continuous learning and mentorship. Jesse, who also teaches at Walton College of Business, offers heartfelt insights into the joys of mentoring future entrepreneurs. With lighthearted banter about life and academia, this episode is a heartwarming testament to the rewards of fostering success in others and the shared desire to keep learning and growing in both personal and professional spheres. Listen in and join us for a blend of inspiration, humor, and invaluable business insights.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
hey, everybody, we're back again in the studio.
Today.
It's a beautiful day in theneighborhood.
Definitely it's a 2025.
Now too, man, I know youbelieve that I'm ready.
Jesus, I was born in 1958.
Good grief, I know.
I said to my wife the other dayI've got like an average of

(00:26):
five more years to live.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Dang, I think you're going to make it.
Mark, you think so.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
I think you're going to do it.
I know the shovel off theground before you bounce like
that.
I don't know about that Hangingwith the freaking.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm still eating a lot of french fries and smoking
Lucky Strike, so my odds are notso good.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
No, no, you okay hold on it's, it's, it's not it's.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Tell us what you did this morning, what your wife
just called you about more mywife called me on the way here
to tell me I used her towel thismorning and said you're
obviously very distracted, don'trun into anybody.
Quote, unquote, um, because Idid have a little accident.
You know last year what is yourdaughter's mini?

(01:10):
Oh, we're on in your car.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
I totaled it, um, but other than that, when you said
accident last year, I thoughtyou were referring back to like
a towel.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
No, that you needed a towel.
What are we talking about?
I thought you were talkingabout my 13-year-old Seriously,
I'm just kidding which I'm waytoo old to have a 13-year-old.
Let's face it.
Oh yeah, because you only gotfive more years to live.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
I mean, god, I'm blessed.
You want to be mentioned foryour 18th birthday.
Oh jeez, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Let's keep an eye on you two.
Today, you guys are going to belaughing at me when I'm dead,
which is funny, honestly,because I won't care so what?

Speaker 2 (01:51):
what could the podcast look like?
Like, let's say, you died, youknow.
Like, let's say, it's wednesdayand you die, and then we do our
podcast big talk on thursday.
You would want me to do thepodcast?
Oh, of course I would okay.
Yeah, what would that episodeneed to be like, though?
Do you want me to do thepodcast?
Oh, of course I would Okay.
What would that episode need tobe like, though?
Do you want me to do anythingspecial for you?

Speaker 1 (02:09):
No, there's no need to do anything special.
A little cardboard cutout.
I'd be self-conscious if youdid that.
It's an element I would say.
I'd be like looking down,according to all those people
who talk about dying.
That would go into religion.
No, religion, no, thenear-death experiences are they
lift up?
Yeah, see the ring.
Yeah, exactly, you say it'sgonna be like big talk.
I'll be like looking down hereon you, eric.

(02:30):
Maybe you'll have our guesttoday with you.
Let's introduce him.
Look, yeah, bring me back.
We have dr jesse core with ustoday.
Yeah, you know, recently gothis ph.
Congrats, man.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
Man, I appreciate it.
Or DBA, dba, I got my DBA.
I knew that.
I apologize, that's all right.
It's no big deal, I appreciateit.
It's kind of weird being calledthat right now Doctor, yeah,
doctor, doctor and doctor,doctor.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
We're going to come back to that, but before we do,
this is another episode of BigTalk About Small.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
Business.
It's awesome, well one.
I'm really excited you guysdidn't give me the cue that I
was supposed to come in on that.
I'll do better next time.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, we do it at the end of the show too.
I got that one.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
You can be with us then, jesse.
First of all, thanks for havingme.
I've that one.
You can be with us then, jesse,you know.
First of all, thanks for havingme.
I've always wanted to be onthis show.
It's pretty, pretty cool to behere, so thank you guys, you got
it, man.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
It is the biggest show about business on planet
earth.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
I agree, the biggest show about small business.
Oh yeah yeah, I guess we'relegends in our own minds over
here, but no, having Jesse isgoing to be good, cause he's a
fun guy to hang out with, yeah,you know.
Um, jesse, tell us a little bitabout yourself.
You're obviously in the in thebeverage business.

(03:55):
I can't just say beer businessat this point.
Right, what do you consideryourself Beverage?

Speaker 3 (03:59):
100% with uh, you know, with craft beer doing what
crap beer is doing these days,which is going down.
We transitioned to beverageseveral years ago, so it was a
good move at that point.
But, man, I'm keeping very,very busy and, like you, I'm
happy as hell that 2024 is over.
Good job, 2024 is good.
Let's get going in 2025.

(04:21):
So we got big plans coming up2025.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
So tell us about yourself now.
When did you start Core Brewing, or is it still called Core
Brewing it?

Speaker 3 (04:29):
is.
I mean, our DBA would beScarletter Beverage Company, but
you know the holding company isCore Brewing.
I started that in 2009.
And the way I started I lovedbrewing craft beer as far back
as 1992.
I grew up in Fort Smith, wentto Fort Smith, northside,
typical freshman at West Ark, Iplayed baseball there and I had

(04:53):
a microbiology class at 8 am inthe morning and like most
freshmen I was drinking beersand chasing girls.
And my professor pulled measide one day and said Jesse, if
you just get your ass to class,I'll teach you how to make beer
.
And that was in 1992.
And I'm like showing up toclass, getting my work done and
then just learned to love it.
Then I moved from Fort Smith toMiami for a couple years.

(05:15):
Denver three years, san Diegoseven years.
What were you doing in thoseplaces?
Writing software, really.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
I did not know that.
Yeah, I was a software dude Wow, software, really.
I did not know that.
Yeah, I was a software dude Wow, you have such a varied
background.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
It was a cool time.
You're a renaissance man.
It was a cool time.
So I, you know, back in the daywe used faxes for resumes,
right yeah, and I sent out 90resumes and I got two offers One
was Miami Beach, the other wasCleveland.
Oh, that was hard, so yeah,what do you choose?

Speaker 1 (05:42):
I mean the mistake on the lake or Miami Vice right.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
What's he going to do ?
So I took my country ass downto Miami Beach right out of Fort
Smith.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Were you well-received as a country
person from Fort Smith down inMiami Beach.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Well, I don't know about all that.
You're not so much a countryperson.
Let's get real, that's true.
That's not so much a countryperson, let's get real All right
, that's true, that's not somuch country.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
More Fort's been north side yeah, that's true,
not so much country.
Hell, it was an eye-openingexperience because I was able to
get my car down there and I had$300 to my name and I'm like
I'm rich.
Yeah, you were.
And pissing rain there we gowith cussing already.
It's just pissing rain in Miamiand I pulled in front of my

(06:27):
apartment complex and there wasjust one spot.
I couldn't see anything.
So I pulled in at this spot.
God, this is a godsend.
I got my spot go out to my car,turns out, I parked in a
handicapped spot as soon as Ilanded in Miami, cost me $300.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
There you go Back to ground zero.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
So you know, I learned to love bologna yeah,
bologna's a good, good product,uh, but anyway I scratched and
clawed that, moved to denver fora few years in san diego, where
I really started to learn aboutcraft beer, and when I came
back to arkansas I'm likethere's just no good crap beer
here.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
So you're a program writer, a program engineer, but
but then you're in craft beer.
So I mean, I guess from yourclass in college you continue to
learn to make craft beer, lovedit and then and you kept doing
that miami on the side and wentto denver, did that on the side
and I mean, is that kind ofwhat's exactly?

Speaker 3 (07:20):
so you know, I'm pulling around my little trailer
behind me with my honda civicand I left my couch couch in
Denver so I could bring myhomebrew system.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
Absolutely yeah, let's have the priorities
straight.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
right, I mean my apartment in Denver or San Diego
had pretty much like a futonand a homebrew system.
That's what we had and I justlearned to love it, you know.
Then I got back to Arkansas.
I was working at Tyson Greatcompany.
Tyson's a great company, peoplelike working at Tyson.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
It has a very good reputation as a place to work.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
It is a good place to work, and I just had that
entrepreneurial itch it's theonly reason why I ever left.
And I was on the city councilof Springdale at that time and I
got to know Rick Barrows, andRick Barrows, the owner of
Multicraft, a plus human being,yeah, multicraft construction
company Right Big company, andRick's an unbelievable guy.

(08:15):
And so I said, hey, rick, Iwant to give this thing a shot,
this homebrews thing.
And so he goes, all right, gosquat in one of my little
complexes over there, which iswhere now where the brewery's at
Yep.
And then you know, thathappened 2009.
And then we just started goingat that point.
And then I got the itch.
When I went to a liquor store,I put my product in the shell
and I was stocking it.

(08:36):
Somebody came up and bought mybeer right in front of me and
I'm like that's it, that's it.
I, I'm Ed.
Yeah, you're doing what youwere born to do.
That was it, that was it, yeah.
And so that's how Core Beerstarted.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
So that's been a hell of a ride.
So it's 2009,.
So we're almost 15 years intothis 16 years no 16.

Speaker 3 (08:57):
Now 16.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, that's right Now, 16.
So tell us what happened.
How did you do it?
Did you have to raise a bunchof money?
Or yeah, you did it on ashoestring, or what did you do?

Speaker 3 (09:08):
Well, you know one, I started off.
Yeah, we raised some money.
It was during the GreatRecession, right, yeah.
So I remember going to a bankerand I had this really kick-ass
business plan and I slid itacross him and he just goes,
goes.
I can't hit you, you know, andthat's what it was like the

(09:29):
whole time.
I couldn't raise crap, yeah,for money.
I just had to keep goingbootstrapping and pull money out
of my account, out of my bank,you know so, which my wife was
just super excited about.
Let's give up the eight hourdays.
You know the benefits, the 401k, and let's be entrepreneurs.
Yeah, that was an easy sell, no, and uh, so um, and then, you

(09:53):
know, then I, then I got, then Istarted.
I went to one of my formeremployees at tyson and he was
the first investor in thebusiness and, uh, started
raising a little bit of moneyand it's really capital
intensive.
It's so damn expensive, guys.
And I get people come to me allthe time with a great idea to
start a brewery.
Right, mike, come here, buddy,come here, come, sit down by me

(10:15):
for a couple of minutes.
We're going to have aconversation, you know, and when
they really get bent out ofshape is when I start talking
about personal guarantees, right?

Speaker 1 (10:24):
They don't understand that I don't get it.
My students, you know, wheneveryou start getting into legal
forms of organization like, well, an LLC is a limited liability
company and I'm like, OK, butwhat happens when you have to
sign a personal guarantee,Forget that.
It all goes out the window.
That's it.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
OK, that's it.
Yeah, I mean, there is no.
And I tell my students the samething.
I'm like man.
If you're in this like acockpit and you got your one
hand on the ejection ring, yourbusiness is not going to win,
right, yeah, you better be allin, because it was so much more
expensive than I thought and youdon't even know what you don't
know.
So, yeah, no, no.
So yeah, I raised a lot ofmoney.

(11:04):
We ended up raising about $10million.
Dang.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Wow, good job man.
So you went through a radicaltransformation of this business.
You grew along right and youended up with a whole bunch of
pubs.
I guess brew pubs Would youcall them that.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
Oh yeah, I love telling this story.
Thank you for breaking it down.
How long do I have?
Four hours on this?

Speaker 2 (11:24):
thing.
Although Mark's got to get outof here on time to go get his
motor home, now I've got to getit, take it in, got to take it
in, I'll hustle up.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
I'll hustle up.
Here we are.
We had our first pub inSpringdale.
It was doing great.
Then we opened it with Rogers,which is the core building,
which I loved.
It was Dusty Graham's buildingover there.
Of course, I told everybody itwas mine.
Yeah, right, yes, my pub wasthere and it's the core building
.
It looked like the corebuilding.
So there you go, you're welcome.
And so we had a pub there andthe worst thing happened.

(11:55):
Mark, it did great.
Mm-hmm, it was doing amazing.
It's the worst thing that couldhave happened to the business.
It's sadistic to think it was agood business, oh yeah.
And then the next thing, I'msitting there with my biggest
investor and we're sitting inone of our pubs and the banker
from JP Morgan flies up to justtell me how smart I am.
Jesse, you're a genius, youneed to replicate this bud.

(12:20):
And I'm like hell, yeah, I'm sosmart, this is a surefire way.
So we opened up yeah, you're sosmart, and I'm one of my
investors and we're like God,we're smart.
And this we go like let's openeight more.
Dad near killed us, almostbankrupt us.
We got within 29 minutes ofbankruptcy.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Oh wow, and we're those eight, all here in
northwest Arkansas, all overArkansas.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
Okay, we had Little Rock, north Little Rock, our
whole goal, you know.
You put it on paper.
A cool little business planlooks really smart.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
You're spreading your brand recognition Right.
You're driving your retailsales.
Driving your retail sales Right.
You're gaining brand equity,customer loyalty, Backfired in
almost every single possible way.
One you can't account for theamount of theft.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
That's what I tell everybody about that business.
Internal theft is the biggestproblem.
If you're not there all thetime in that business, people
are robbing you.
They are your employees, aregiving the product away left and
right.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
I assume that's the problem.
I assume for every dollar beerwe delivered we sold 60 cents
why that's a lot of internaltheft.
I mean, I hate to say it- well,it's a pretty simple gig, you
know.
I mean you would, you wouldsell a pie to eric, eric would
give you cash, take the cash,cancel the transaction,
everything's good, and it wasjust it's just part of the norm.

(13:43):
And I mean there was times whenthe pub and it was just it's
just part of the norm, and Imean there was times when the
pub, you know, they justwouldn't open.
And I'd find out they justweren't open that day.
So you're pissing off all yourcustomers.
And then so I remember in, um,we like driving around all those
things all the time, all thetime.
Yeah, it was terrible.
I was so unhappy, guys, we gotaway from what I really enjoyed,
which is um relationships, ofum manufacturing, the business

(14:07):
side of it, and it was justreally about just babysitting
the whole time, sure, and then,um, I was just talking to my
wife one day.
I'm like I almost dropped anf-bomb there, so close, but
almost did.
I said I said f this.
You know, this is terrible.
I mean I'm so unhappy, you knowwe should close this business.
I'm going back to my day job,you know, and my wife just goes
close all the stupid pubs, justclose them all.

(14:29):
It was so hard.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, it's a hard decision to make because you're
and I remember reading this inthe paper.
You still have the one, though,at the airport.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
We do, and I'll tell you why we're successful there
in a minute One.
We're successful there becausewe don't run it that's right by
Paradis and Paradis is reallygood.
We're not.
And so I went to my wife andyou know that saying that JFK
said about how every success has100 fathers but every failure
is an orphan.
Oh, that was me, bud.
Oh, when the pubs were going up,man, I had a lot of buddies, we

(15:01):
were all geniuses.
But, man, when that thingstarted getting out of hand,
it's like, jesse, what did youdo?
You were so stupid, and so Ijust went to my board and I said
we got to close these things.
And you know, after a while wewere able to close them and it
was rough, man.
But then, six months later,covid hits and we look like
geniuses again.
Oh, months later, covid hitsand we look like geniuses again.

(15:22):
Oh, wow, it was so fortuitous,good timing, it was such, you
know, I like to say that is solucky.
I thank my wife for justtelling me.
You just got to do this, man,you're so unhappy.
And as a result, guys, we wentfrom just dying on a vine,
unhappy, to retrenching, gettingback to where we're good.

(15:43):
I think Scratchy called back upto number one again.
That's what it took.
So what I tell our students,mark, is you know, don't be too
cute.
You know you have more timethan you think you know and do
not get over your skis.
Be careful who you take moneyfrom.
Amen to that.
And I look back at it and I andum, well, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
No, I'm just gonna say a lot of people you
mentioned your students.
A lot of people don't know thatjesse also teaches at the
walton college.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah, and uh is is uh, I mean,I think it's great when we have
people like you have realexperience out there doing this
stuff.
It's cool, you know, it's thestudents value that so much, no
doubt and it's you know I.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
When when dr rich came to me and said, hey, man,
you want to teach this class?
I'm like I don't know.
You know I didn't.
It didn't sound that fun to mebut man, after I taught the
first one, I'm hooked.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
I love it it forces you to keep learning and
refining your own businessphilosophy, doesn't it?

Speaker 3 (16:43):
100% and it also gives me restored kind of a
renewed perspective, optimism.
You know that the world isgoing in the right direction.
It really is.
These kids, these young futureleaders, are bright.
Yeah, they are and I'm reallyexcited and there's so much fun.
Yeah, from my business one,they know I make Scarlet Letter

(17:07):
and they're like who knowsScarlet Letter?
Yeah, we do Scarlet LetterRight.
But they're so engaged and theygive me such great feedback I
learn as much from them as theydo from me.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
Absolutely.
I felt the same way, for sure,but you've got an amazing
reputation.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
Well, amazing reputation.
We use this book a lot of timesin my class.
Well, that's nice, jesse, youdon't have to do that.
You start using this podcast soI can get a little bit of
benefit out of it, out of yourcelebrity status.
I'm over here, I'm trying tomake some, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, these are passing out the podcast look, no
, truthfully, eric's the mostsuccessful one of the bunch, no,
but, but anyway he's been greatto work with, but I'm always
trying to get that money.
It's a lot of fun, but.
But going back, though, to yourbusiness, so you close the pubs

(18:00):
down.
Six months later, covid hits,you're making beer.
Okay, when did you morph thisbusiness into what it is today,
which is making these otherproducts?

Speaker 3 (18:13):
Yes, so by one.
How did that deal with all thetheft and stuff in pubs?
We're actually focused onthings that actually make money,
right, and White Claw wasbecoming a thing, right.
Mm-hmm, that actually makemoney right.
And, uh, white claw wasbecoming a thing right.
And I remember drinking whiteclaw and go, wow, that sucks to,
not what to do this.
I did not leave a career tomake this crap, but my brewers
were like try this, is it likezima or something?

(18:35):
See back back in our day.
We're drinking zima, right?
Yeah, I mean, I never had whiteclaw.
That's z Zima.
I think Zima tastes better thanwhite claw.
Truthfully, yeah, remember thatsong.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
I just can't believe you dropped the Zima note,
that's like.
One time I asked Mark, I waslike what kind of music are you
listening to?
Well, I like Waterfalls by TLC.
I'm like what the hell did youjust say Like how the hell?

Speaker 1 (18:59):
I mean it's a Zima, zima and T like how the hell?
I mean, it's a lab thing, yeah,but no, and it was like such a
great.
It's a case study in itself ofa product that just like went
insane and then just completelydied, like overnight.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
Oh, yeah, and so it's .
Yeah, it's a white claw whereI'm to my brewers like, try this
.
I'm like sucks, sucks, right.
And after eight months we wedelivered something.
I'm trying.
I'm like, whoa, that's prettygood.
So I'm like, let's do this,let's give it a real shot.
We put it out in the market,did some tastings, got people to
try it, and the response wasgreat.
And then, a year later, it's 95of our business.
Wow, all right.

(19:31):
So what do you call that?
That's a.
That was hard seltzer, a hardseltzer.
And so this year we'rereleasing hard tea and that's
going into all this.
I like that and, oh man, I'mgoing to like that.
Oh, you're so.
And what's cool, what's fun is,I think, the one thing we're
good at.
We suck at pubs.
Clearly, right, obviously, matt, obviously you're terrible, and

(19:55):
so.
But we were really good atmaking stuff.
Yeah, and this hard tea, sam'sClub did a blind taste testing
with all the national brands andours won hands down.
Wow, that's fantastic, it'sreally good, that's great.
And so we're releasing thatnext year.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
So do we make the John Daly's out of this, or what
do we do with it?

Speaker 3 (20:11):
You can manage it with something else.
Well, you can put in your beerhelmet, mark, and just go with
it.
Beer helmet on a Janus Guzzle,that stuff, a tennis guzzle and
stuff, just go.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
In his motorhome.
So Scarlet Letter though 95% ofthe business.
What was so fun?

Speaker 3 (20:29):
about this, guys, was you still make beer, though.
We do, we do, and this iswhat's so fun about this.
I'm going to definitely writein a book about this whole
experience.
It's going to be called 29Minutes.
Yeah, and-.
Love it so catchy.
I minutes.
Love it so catchy, it'll befunny.
There'll be some funny stuff init.
I promise you You're a funnyguy.
My daughter says I'm thefunniest guy, andy, and I

(20:52):
definitely think we're thefunniest people on the planet.
My daughter after a time islike God, you're stupid and
embarrassing.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
I always think that about us there's nothing we can
do about that.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
It doesn't matter how cool you really are, like we
are.
Yeah, our daughter is stillhere.
When they get older, though,they'll realize how freaking
cool we are.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
They'll be like you know what?
You were really cool, Dad, yourkids will say that We'll see.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
I'll keep you guys posted on that one, we'll see.
Now I'm really lucky.
My kids are amazing.
Where were we?
I forgot my question.
This is what happens when I'mgetting older.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
We're talking about Scarlet Letter.
95% of the business.
You still make beer.

Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yes.
So the beer thing, thank youGod.
All right.
So the beer thing is I went tomake craft beer because I loved
making beer.
Yeah, I didn't want to make thesame crap that everything was
out.
This is the evolution.
Eric comes to you with ahomebrew and you're like, oh,
it's delicious, it's amazing,this is so much better.
You're going to be abazillionaire.
And then, all of a sudden, heinvests.

(21:48):
He starts with a one barrelsystem, a tiny system.
Everybody's like it's thegreatest thing ever.
And then this is where ithappens.
He starts buying equipment andbigger equipment.
All of a sudden, this stuff'snot quite so sexy.
And then what?
He's okay, I'll just make alight beer, and that's how.
And then, and then, next thing,you know he's on a fast track
to nothingness.
And so, bud, light, miller,light, coors, light, natty light

(22:12):
.
I have brands that are nevergoing to go away.
People just drink it andthey're not going to drink the
craft stuff.
Sorry, that's just what I'velearned, sure?
So it's a part of me makingscarlet letter and and going
into beverages.
I can now make beer that I like, right.
I don't have to make the stuffthat just sells, that just pays
bills, right.
And the ironic thing is that itdoesn't pay the bills.

(22:35):
Nobody's going to buy yourlager when they've been drinking
bud for 30 years.
Yeah, that's a hard truth.
When I'm talking to littlejohnny over here about his new
brewery, sure I'm like.
Sure your hop, that you gotsome experimental hop you picked
up new zealand, you know, youknow, stolen from a great wife's
mouth.
There's something and you knowit's great, but you can't buy it

(22:56):
.
It doesn't scale, you can'treplicate it.
You can't replicate it, sure,so it makes total sense.
Oh, that's, that's where westarted getting better.
Got to stick green dot.
As we started getting better,we started getting back to what
we're good at Relationships andproduct and driving your cogs
down and doing those kinds ofthings.

(23:16):
And that's where we startedwinning again.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
Like if I went to your brewery once and I was
watching those cans goingthrough those conveyors and
filling up and everything, it'slike I would just be hypnotized
by that.
Do you ever just walk out thereon the floor and then just like
go into, like some kind of aweird meditative hyper focus of
watching all this stuff on beingout your product?
I'm like scrooge mcduck of thecanning line.

Speaker 3 (23:40):
I'm like I would dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar,
dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar,dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar.
My floors are like a pool ofcans all day long.
This is so boring.
I'm like dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar.
That's the rest of us.
So I just love it.
And my chairman of the boardwill fly in and do the same
thing.
The guy runs a big company.
He'll fly down here just topull cans.

(24:01):
I know it feels good.
Yeah, it is the american dreambaking stuff.
It is selling it.
His entrepreneurship it is.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
It is indeed.
That's fantastic.
I love being down there.
Now I want to ask you, though,one question that I've always
wondered sure, why do all theseindependent brew pubs sell
skunky beer that's served toohot?
What the hell is that about?
Because the old guys like me goin there and we're, like you

(24:30):
guys, got Bud Light in the cold,right.
Okay, to your point earlier.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
I mean 30 years of drinking Bud Light.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
It's 50 in my case.
Okay, I mean.
So why do they all seem tofollow this formula?
Okay of that, let's bring yourdog, let's sit around.
Yeah, our employees areslackers.
Maybe they'll give you goodservice this time.
Maybe they'll ignore you for 20minutes the next time.
And, by the way, we'll serveyou any matter of variety of

(25:01):
oddly named strange tastingbeers with shit in them that
should ever be in beer, okay,and we'll serve it warm and
maybe not carbonated like itshould be.
You don't have to answer what?
No, no, this I mean.
I just wonder, why do they keepdoing that and then thinking
this is gonna be a great?

Speaker 3 (25:19):
success?
It wasn't.
The problem is marcus was asuccess for now.
Now you look at the data andeverybody's dying on a vine
because, guess what, nobodywants to drink a 400 calorie
beer.
That tastes like shit.
Yeah, exactly, you know.
I remember a phase where I Iwent up to colorado and I'm like
I've got a 10 ounce pour ofthis barrel aged stuff.

(25:41):
That's like molasses, I mean.
It's like give me diabetesafter one glass of it.
You know, and I'm thinking tomyself and I told my wife I'm
like this is the beginning ofthe end of craft brewing right
here.
If I have to pay $14 for a 10ounce glass of this stuff,
that's really not even good.
You know that.

(26:03):
That's and that's why seltzerstarted becoming so popular.
You could drink eight of them,not get diabetes, and you know
it tastes good.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah well, it seems to well.
The whole thing is is um itjust.
It always comes down todifferentiation of your product
and having something that otherpeople aren't doing, which is
what leads to great success.
So how do you account, like foryour Scarlet Letter, for

(26:32):
example?
Where do you see that fittingin the market that you serve?
What makes it so different?
What makes it successful?

Speaker 3 (26:42):
That's what keeps me up at night every because
there's always going to becompetition and if you're doing
something well, it's a matter oftime for somebody to start
copying.
Sure, so that's what we do.
Well.
One.
I learned also that you don'thave to be the first to do it.
That's usually really expensiveand hard to do.
For example, when I came fromCalifornia and, by the way, my

(27:04):
kids are eighth generationArkansans, I'm not a Californian
, for the record I got so muchshit.
When I came back, I'm like I'mArkansan, I just lived in
California.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
I know I moved here via Boston, but I'm from
Missouri, okay.
So it's like, yeah, that's theworst, yeah, so anyway, I'm a
native Missourian myself.
I didn't realize that.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
I just thought you were from Boston this whole time
.
He's from the Lou.
No, I swear to you, he's fromthe Lou.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, I am.
It's not that much differentfrom Fort Smith Outside St Louis
, okay.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
I had no idea, honestly, all this time, that
you were from here.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
No, I swear to you Sorry.
Anyway, I came here and Ibought a canning line for the
business.
I couldn't sell a drop of beerin cans and that's why some of
my students I thought it was ano-brainer being from California
, Nobody drank out of bottlesanymore.
So to me being the first, notnecessarily the greatest idea,
the first independent,independent brewer, put your

(28:04):
beer in cans.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, or just being so far out ahead of.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
I found that I was too far out ahead of the market.
Okay, you know I was too early,I was running down the hill a
little too fast, yeah, so Islowed down.
And so for me, I feel likewhere Scarlet Letter does a good
job, positioning is we'repretty good on trends and we're
able because we're small, we'reable to pivot quickly.
We're pretty nimble and we canattack trends pretty quick, so
like your flavors being a trend.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
is that what you were talking about, or?

Speaker 3 (28:32):
it's like hard tea is has five more years of runway
and we're way ahead of any otherArkansas brewery on that.
Yeah, Cause we've beendeveloping it for a year.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
I love the idea of hard tea.
I really do, it's great.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
And you know the I don't want to.
If there's any competitors outthere listening, don't listen to
this, right.
You know is we have a lighthard tea that's going to be
released in 2026.
Awesome.
And then we have anotherbeverage that we're already
planning for 2027.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
Sure, you know.
So we want to make sure we'restaying right, because hard tea
or a seltzer is flatten likewell that's.
Yeah, that's got a very oakyovertones, with a little bit of
nuttiness to the aftertaste, andoak cask, oh yeah, and all that
bullshit.
Okay, and they were trying todo the same thing with beer.
Did you notice that I was?

Speaker 3 (29:43):
awful, I hate.
I call them the neck beards.
You know, the neck beards, nofish was like right here and
they got, you know, theirharpooner whaler hat on like
they're about to go.
You know harpoon moby dick outthere in the same uniform and
they had, like this pretensionto the whole thing, that really
turned me off.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Well, it really started pissing me off in my
pubs.
Is I had like this pretensionto the whole thing, that really
turned me off.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
Well, it really started pissing me off in my
pubs is I had to go kiss theirasses the whole time.
You know, I'm like oh, hey, youknow, what do you think about
this?
Because I don't want a badreview on and this rating site.
Oh, you know, and so you know Igive them this, this product I
work really hard on.
I have to sit there, pretendlike I care what they think, you
know, and it's usually when yousaid oh, it's, it's a good
fruity.

(30:24):
No, tangerine, yeah, exactlyyeah.
And I'm like like there's notangerines, I'll let start
career for this crap.
And then what happens is youtell eric, then eric's got his
neck beard, he's rocking outthere, he's got his beanie on at
97 degree weather.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
We should have had Jesse on soon, I think, doug.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
That's right, Our kind of spirits bark Beanie on
in 97 degree weather.
You got the uniform on and assoon as I Eric, listen you're
going to start paying for yourbeer.
Now they're gone, they'removing on the next pub and your
ratings go down on the side likethat, it's just, I'm done with
the game.
So I got to a point where Ijust told them all hey, you know
, kiss my ass, If you don't likemy stuff, go away.

(31:09):
And so I started focusing onbigger, you know, relationships
with bigger accounts, more scaleand just making really good
stuff.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
We're in the right place to do that here in
northwest Arkansas, right, gosh?
I mean, you couldn't be in abetter location to create, have
a distribution of your product,right?

Speaker 3 (31:31):
What a you know there's so many reasons why this
is one of them.
I mean, I've lived in San Diego, miami Beach, boulder, right.
This is the best place in thecountry.
It really is.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
I mean, I can't say I lived in all those, which are
all great places, but I lived inBoston.
I lived in Memphis.
Everybody's like Memphis sucks.
Actually I thought Memphis wasgreat.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
Okay, dfw area.
I'm a Cowboys fan.
We're going to talk and we'vegot a therapy session coming up.
I'm a Cowboys fan.

Speaker 1 (31:59):
But I'm with you on it.
I mean Northwest Arkansas.
I always say we're not the bestat any one thing, but the
overall package comes togetherhere.
It's a really great quality oflife, no doubt.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
I love raising my family here.
Yeah, I love it.
And you get enough, you know Imean the cost of living.
Still, well, I'm glad I boughtmy house a long time ago, I can
tell you that.
But I love it here.
I love Northwest Arkansas, yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
So you're such an interesting guy.
He's done so many differentthings in your life.
You recently went back and gotthe DBA.
What motivated you to do that?

Speaker 3 (32:38):
Tell us about that man, I love pain.
I'm kidding about that.
It's something that after Istarted man, I love pain.
Yeah, I'm a glutton, I'mkidding about it.
It was.
It's something that when, afterI started teaching, you know, I
started learning One.
Getting this past my board ofdirectors was hard because
they're like what the hell?
You're the CEO of this company,you don't have time for this.
But I saw the value in theacademic research out there that

(33:00):
PhDs were doing and all thisamazing information that were
not really accessible or evendigestible for people like me, a
practitioner, and I thought,man, what an amazing amount of
information.
And so I wanted to learn.
I want to be the best CEO I canbe and I also want to be the
best mentor I can be, and Ithink about myself more as a

(33:20):
mentor than professor and Iwanted to give this a shot.
And so it came down to OSU orUniversity of Missouri, st Louis
, and I chose University ofMissouri, st Louis because of
the academic settings I've beenin.
They don't really value.
Oh, of course, practitioner, Iknow it's a little bizarre to me

(33:47):
.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
I think the Walton College has done a good job.
I mean, I feel like they'vetreated me with respect, but
there is still a fundamentaldifference.
When you have things like emailgroups that are for you know,
tenure track versus non-tenuretrack, that's a big deal.
You know, tenure track meansyou got the terminal degree and

(34:11):
you're not necessarily.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
I thought you know, for me you know, and I don't
want to interrupt you there buttenure track is and one.
I felt like that kind of biashappened both ways.
I have my board of directorsthat I have C-suite officers on
my board and they're like Idon't care what a tenure
professor says, those guys justwork four hours a day.
Right, you know, that's whatthey think.
And then I have the tenureprofessors over there thinking,

(34:36):
well, how many publications doyou have?
Well, you're not in our groupeither.
You got nothing.
You got nothing.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
You got nothing Right .
So what you could have?
Like 300 articles published inthe business journal, but that
doesn't mean anything becausethey're not academic journals.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah, not to me.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
But it could be a C-suite office for a company
that's doing $400 million a yearand be like how many
publications, if not how manypublications.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
Exactly Go ahead.
Well, no.
So you decided you were goingto go through this.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
And because this particular program this is why
I'm an advocate for theexecutive DBA program is because
it bridges the gap.
They focus on practitionerscholars, people that have run
businesses, who have the scars,the blood, and they teach them
how to do that academic research, to speak that language.
To me, I felt like it was a oneplus one equals five, and it

(35:27):
was some of the best money Ispent.
How long did it take you?

Speaker 1 (35:30):
to do this Three and a half years, well, and so how
often did you have to go to StLouis?

Speaker 3 (35:36):
Once a month, Okay, and it was hard.
You know you dedicate 20 hoursa week to this program.
Wow, and it's a lot.
It's a lot and I'm alreadyworking 100 hours a week Running
a business and family andteaching at the Walden College.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
It was hard, so what real value do you see that you
got from it all One?
I'm a far better leader.
Why, though I mean why did thathelp you become a better?

Speaker 3 (36:00):
the information that you learn in this, the, the, the
research, um, my ability to umdigest uh, this one.
The thing I tell you, eric, isacademic research has put a lot
of good uh publications outthere.
How many of them have you read?
Zero, yeah, see, that's aproblem.
There's a lot of good researchout there, and what it also

(36:23):
helped me is be able to um uh tobe able to be a better
professor for these students aswell, and also I wanted to go
into the professional field.
Before I get on that, I want totalk a little bit about, uh,
what my research was.
It was really cool.
I worked with Harps Foods andwith Harps Foods I was able to

(36:50):
stop company yeah, no doubt, andHarps is a great local business
and Harps went and met with JMax Van Hooster, ceo, and with
Harps I was able to do anexperiment with them and measure
shelf space and, because of myrelationships with J Max and
Harps, I was able to get inthere and do a physical
experiment that measured theshelf space changes from if you
swap out a large brand with asmall brand, what would happen.

(37:10):
The data was fascinating.
It showed that if you swap outa large brand with a small brand
, facing sales of the totalmodular went up.
I couldn't have done that if Iwere just in academics
Interesting yeah, so, but Ilearned how to conduct that.
If I were just in academicsInteresting yeah, so, but I
learned how to conduct thatexperiment through this program
as well.
Wow, yeah, that's very cool.

(37:30):
It was good.
I'm very happy that I did it.
I'm very happy.
I didn't do a great job ofexplaining it but I am very
happy that I did it.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
No, you did a great job explaining it, jesse.
You know I mean you talk about.
There's useful research outthere that those of us on the
practitioner side don't haveaccess to or unaware of.
You know, I think part of theproblem with academia and I just
had breakfast this morning withone of my friends who was a

(37:59):
former professor here and nowhe's moved to a different school
and his thrust has always beenthat we risk our academic
existence if we don't do morepractical research than what is
done.
That's I think that for a lotof people, um, they're very

(38:20):
skeptical of anything that theywould see in an academic journal
, good or bad.
And then, you know, when I seeeven our own college or
university promoting some of theresearch that's been done, I
think it really hurts ourcredibility out there in the
marketplace with practitioners.
For example, what happens to theperformance of teams when you

(38:45):
give them misinformation?
Is that a worthwhile topic?
What do we think is going tohappen?
Performance goes to shit, okay.
Or another study that waspublished people who don't go to
the office don't get sick asoften as those who do.
Now can you believe that?

(39:06):
Yeah, because you've isolatedyourself, okay, weird.
Or those whose urine is darkerin color are less hydrated yeah
no than those who have light.
These are all studies that Ihave seen put out by our
university.
Okay, and there are, for whatit's worth.

(39:27):
There is a group of people Iknow in northwest arkansas
non-academics, who runbusinesses, who jump on every
bit of PR about absurd researchdone and share it amongst
themselves and say this is whatthe hell's wrong with higher
education today.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
Man, I completely agree with that and that's why I
think it is so important again,kind of going back to you know,
mark, it's people like us andEric that we are the ones that
need to be more involved inhigher education, because I
truly believe education isreally the solution to a lot of
our problems.
But I, for the life of me,don't understand and they've

(40:09):
tried to explain it to me, but Ithink maybe I'm just dumb Is
the rigor versus relevanceargument For me.
I just don't understand why youwould do anything that's not
relevant.
And they explain it, theyexplain it, explain it.
And I still struggle with that.
I don't really want to doanything that lacks relevance.
And there's been.
I've had to read a lot of that,you know, and through the DVO

(40:32):
program there's one class inparticular that I read, that I
went through and I read a lot ofshit.
It was completely useless, youknow.
But there were some otherclasses, particularly my
corporate strategy, that wasunbelievable, that absolutely
helped me become a betterexecutive and think at a higher
level.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
So you know, I mean I'm a.
It's funny this conversation,because I do think about it
quite a bit.
My dad was a professor.
Yeah, chair of psychology.

Speaker 3 (40:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
So I grew up in this.
It's, you know, academia.
I know, yes, I'd rather have itas an academia, but, you know,
as a practitioner, like thereality is is, I probably would
put a bet on how much I'mconstantly self-learning, like
continuously.
I don't watch a lot of TV, Idon't do a lot of other things
that are passive.

(41:20):
I'm constantly reading,listening to audio books,
listening to YouTube, seeking,seeking, seeking constant
industry information.
You are, I know that about you.
Yeah, I mean I have to right,right, but what dumbfounds me is
whenever I'm talking about thatinformation you are, I know
that about you.
Yeah, I mean I have to right,right, you know, and.
But what dumb founds me iswhenever I'm talking about that
and I hear somebody from thewalton college of business say,

(41:41):
oh, have you looked into ourresearch program?
We got a lot of studies,research that we've done for the
last, you know, decades thatcan be helpful for you, and I'm
like give me.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
And they're like, yeah, I'll connect you with
somebody, the journal of academyof management science or
whatever right absolute mostinconvenient.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yeah, completely like we could do it like a complete
mystery as to how I get my damnhands on any of that research.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
We could do a much better job, boiling it down and
distributing that through thesort of widespread business
media, no doubt, than we do.
Well, I, I, there's no doubt.
I don't even know where to goRight After.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
after a decade of working and being an
entrepreneur in this area and Ihave worked a lot of, I've taken
a lot of initiatives on my endto get to know the college and
the university yeah, these typesof things, no, it's a very good
point and I and I and I pushout that energy but I get
nothing back in return, not likezero, like I get a little bit,

(42:47):
but then it's like no more, it'scrickets that's why I felt like
the executive db was good forme, because I want to be able to
speak that language, becauseGoogle Scholar has a lot of good
stuff out there.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
Sure, there's a lot of crap too, but it's also
really hard to read those thingsas well.
I mean, they're hard to digesta lot of those journal articles.
So how do I produce research?
How do I do things that arereally practical, that you guys
can use?

Speaker 2 (43:12):
That's why I chose.
So I have a little bit of ananswer and it's a little bit of
a pitch, but it's genuine.
What we're doing right now isexactly what academia is need to
do.
We need more video talk showson discussing the research and
putting them in areas that I, asa practitioner, can discover
and listen to the distributionchannel.

(43:33):
Yes, I'm going to do aprofessor podcast areas that I,
as a practitioner, can discoverand listen to the distribution
channel.
Yeah, like, I'm gonna do aprofessor podcast, you know,
like to where.
Like that's a great idea.
But I mean like, okay, so I'vesaid that, mentioned it, but I
can get no activity on thisstuff.
It just frustrates me to no end.
But I mean we could totally setup this entire network.
It's a great idea.

Speaker 3 (43:50):
Let's talk about it, because that is I mean.
My brother, Andy, recentlycompleted his PhD in psychology,
Did he really?
Yeah, and and we both talkabout the same things are like
it's, it's really, it's it's.
You can't digest thisinformation, and so we were
actually considering doing somesort of podcast.
Like you know, a, a, adigestible form of information

(44:12):
from research that can actuallybe used.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
So we'll like that you know what we need to have
you and I know Andy really well,your brother, yeah, have you
all guys back on the show.
I've been wanting to do this.
Mark hates it when I bring upthe emotional side of business
ownership, he always cuts me off.
Won't let me go down into it,but I want like to me it's how
I'm.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
That's what he did to me last time.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
Well, he said it was like we're huggies and things
like that, but it's not like theemotional.
Anyway, I would love to haveyou guys on this talk about the
the the emotional intelligencepart about entrepreneurship and
being a business owner, becausethe reality for me is is book
smarts.
But what you had to go throughon when you had to shut down

(44:59):
your, your stores you talkedabout earlier hard decision.
It wasn't hard because of themath, because of the business
model.
You knew you're losing your ass.
You knew these things werehappening reasonably right.
It was the emotional decisionthat you struggled and warred
with within yourself to whereyour wife finally, you know,
pushed you over the edge andthat you made an emotional

(45:22):
decision that probably wascosting you a fortune for months
that you should have mademonths before.
That's the hard stuff forentrepreneurs who wants to lose.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
I don't, and that's my mindset.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Who wants to give up any revenue?
Yeah, I never want to give upany revenue, or your reputation.

Speaker 3 (45:37):
Or your reputation.
Reputation was a big thing.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
It was like holy cow, is Jesse going down?
Yeah Right, Stay away fromJesse.
I remember whistling.
That's an article.

Speaker 3 (45:46):
Really, no doubt, no doubt.
And I remember feeling gravitythe couple of days that I got
out of bed and just tried to getboth feet on the floor.
Absolutely, you know, and but Ijust, you know, I put on.
Damn, it feels good to be agangster by the boys.
Yeah, you do, put in my car andjust go, you go, you go.
That's what you got to do,though, man.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
You got to self-motivate yourself out of
these dark holes, because that'sall that entrepreneurship
really has, because nobody'ssitting around with a bunch of
money saying good job Jesse,good job Mark, no.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
So proud of you.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
You keep the economy going.
You keep losing your butt andhaving people steal from you and
having your reputationpotentially threatened, but you
keep doing it for the good sakeof mankind in the economy in the
United States of America theydon't no one's there to do that,
so no, that's true, he's goingto change the topic.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
No, I want to come back to this though.
So, jesse, so you've got thisDBA now and you're teaching here
at the U of A, you're alsostill running this company that,
I assume, is continuing to growright.
What direction are you going tojust keep pursuing both of
these paths simultaneously?

Speaker 3 (47:00):
Is that the plan, or I want to have options you know,
I think you know, for me I'mhappy with where I'm at.
You know I considered, you knowI had some some faculty
opportunities non-tenure track.
I don't think that's my pathbecause I don't have time to sit

(47:21):
there and focus on the researchand the thing I really enjoy is
I love the student interaction.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
So I've received a couple offers for faculty
positions to be a teachingprofessor, but the problem with
that in our field is so you getthese offers to be a teaching
professor and then you have thistenure track over here with
this 26-year-old.
You get fired.
This 26-year-old who has nowork experience at all, oh yeah,

(47:52):
okay, but has a PhDd, all right, and they're going to make x
dollars.
And you're going to make xminus y dollars in spite of your
history of being able toactually start and grow a
business to a significantenterprise.
How do you rationalize that?

Speaker 3 (48:14):
I don't, and that's why I'm not a faculty member.
I mean that's such a bigproblem.
It seems to me.
It's a massive opportunity foracademia to quit, you know, to
look at the opportunity to bringMark on as a research
professional.
It makes so much sense.

(48:35):
One like my, my my thing withHarps Foods was there's not a
lot of tenure track people thatcan convince the CEO of a major
company.
I can do that because I'm apractitioner and I have you got
credibility with thatcredibility.
If there's some person26-year-old off the street he's
going to be like how'd you getmy number?
Yeah, yeah, right.

(48:57):
And so I think that's anopportunity for both of us.
But I'll be worm bait beforethat ever becomes an amazement.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
It's so hard to change, isn't it?
The momentum over there, theinertia.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
And just the price of education these days is so
stupid.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
Well, we've got to remember, I mean education, you
know, it's like the ad industry,right.
It's hundreds of years old,right, it's been developing way
before and it's got its ownsystem, its own rules, its own
economy, you know.
And so I mean what we're facingis, you know, and before the
internets, getting this type ofinformation was extremely

(49:38):
difficult, yeah, it's true, likenot available.
But now that folks can gettheir own research, now you've
got AI, right, I mean, you'vegot a lot of things that are
happening that are causing thesetwo worlds to try to come
together, but there's still thattraditional tension that's
sitting out there, that thatthat mavericks like yourself,
jesse, have to bust through.
So best of luck to you, sir, onthat I, I well, I mean I first

(49:59):
of all.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
I love what I do, I love being an entrepreneur
absolutely and, um, it's toughman, because what I have learned
in just dealing with academiaand just even through the
doctoral program, for all it'sgood, all the good things it's
taught me, there's still a senseof that they don't really want
me in their club.
Yeah, they don't want me intheir club.
I know, I believe it and that'ssad to me.
It is, and I think it's a hellof an opportunity if we just get

(50:22):
past these kind of sillythreatened feelings.
And I remember, sitting in oneclass, one of the professors
asked me what I thought aboutstay at home.
Um, you know, employees stayingat home, what do you think?
You know it's a trap, guys,they don't know.
And when I started talkingabout, well, hey, you know, as a

(50:42):
business owner, I think youknow I have seen productivity go
down and, man, I got attacked.
You know.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
well, we don't want to just keep beating on this, on
this horse MBA.
I used every single thing Ilearned in school, whether it
was from a practitioner or aresearch professor or a TA

(51:19):
teaching some discipline class.
I mean, I guess that's the.
That's the other side of it.
Like, I used every singleaspect of my education and I
think sometimes entrepreneursmaybe don't value some of the at
some of the stuff that you getfrom a formal degree.

(51:41):
It's important.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
I and I, you know, oh , yeah, for sure, I'm
encouraging some of my employees, I'm helping a few of them go
back and get their degrees, youknow, and business.
I think there's a great benefitfor formal education, you know,
and yeah, as flawed as it is.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
I mean I'm not saying it's perfect in in in any way,
but I but I do think we stillprovide people with a lot of
good and can really open a lotof eyes.
If you think about all theclasses somebody takes and all
the different disciplines andall the people they interact
with no doubt along the way.
I mean that's a valuableexperience that.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
A broad depth of knowledge is very.
Yes, being able to speak thelanguage is important, yes, so
yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
Not everybody's as motivated as Eric over here.
He just is like on thisconstant quest to learn.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Then you are Well, I mean, I was actually thinking
about the other day.
I was like I mean, I wasactually thinking about the
other day.
I was like, you know, becausemy girls are all graduating,
going to college soon, sothere's a lot of this thought
process, but it's just like it'snot about the degree, it's not
about a lot of the stuff thatit's made out to be, it's about
the person.
That's like, if you're wantingto learn, that's where.
That's why the colleges exist,that's why the postgraduate

(52:50):
programs exist, for the folksthat are wanting to be masters
and to continue to improvethings.
And I mean that's.
You know, when I look at thatsystem, it's just like it's
amazing that we built that likeover the years, right, I mean
it's, you know, it's veryfortunate that we have folks
that are studying yeah, they'reconstantly studying, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
So I got one more question for youesse, sure, um?
So eric and I both have had,like, different kinds of
businesses along the way.
You know, you had the magazinebusiness, the marketing
consulting, the software, nowthe podcast video studios and
other things.
You know, you, you've, you'vehad your, your beer business

(53:32):
that you're morphing into abeverage business.
You had pubs along the way,which is a different business.
Now you got your dba.
Okay, how do you think, um, isthis a response to staving off
the boredom that one would haveif they just stayed in the same

(53:56):
thing forever?
What is that that makes youwant to do these, these other
things that you want to do?

Speaker 3 (54:04):
because you know, let's face it, they do take time
away from your primary business, obviously it's a great
question and I not to get, youknow, super, super huggy with
Eric here and all emotionalabout it but I mean I'm in, I'm
in for it, I'm in you ready.
Well, hold tight, we'll getthat in a second.
But I think in large part, youknow you grow up, you know I

(54:25):
mean I was broke growing up.
You know, and you know Iremember my mom would get paid
every second Thursday and I knewI mean we got some good
groceries that day.
It was rough.
So a lot of what I'm trying tolearn is because my fear is I
always continue to have toimprove, because I was always
forever afraid that trap doorwas going to be pulled out.
No matter how successful youget, there's that trap door

(54:47):
Right.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
That paranoia, that fear, that fear that keeps all
of us in, doesn't it?
Oh yeah, what fear Like that?

Speaker 3 (54:56):
I mean, it's a motivator, for sure, but I
totally understand what you'resaying it's you know Java's
going to hit the butt and you'redown with the rank court.
Right, I'm with you.
That was a lot of what wasleading me up to, but at this
point I'm also just kind oflearning to relax a little bit
more.
I love learning and I wish Icould have told myself earlier
going hey, man, jesse, chill,it's going to be all right,

(55:20):
you're going to be okay.
I did not enjoy the journeyenough.
I can tell you that right now.
I did not.
I did not.
I'm so results-oriented all thetime and I fight myself with
that all the time, and that's my, that's one of the things I
want to do with the back, theback nine of my lives, you know,
I think my both my parents diedat 59, so I got eight more

(55:40):
years.
So I'll be right behind you,mark dude.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
Yeah, you better live right.
Just be me on this damn podcast.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
No, just be eric, okay harris are both still alive
because I'm living till I'mlike 80 minutes at least eight
times.

Speaker 3 (55:52):
Okay, well, well that's a good run.
So for me, you know, what keepsme going is, man, I want to
fall into my grave.
You know, I want to give iteverything I have and just be
like I'm going to fall into mygrave.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
I never had a desire to just stop working.
And just what do we do?

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Just think about where we're going out to eat
that night.
I, I don't know at 4 30.
I mean, it was the best quotein the world from sam elliott on
roadhouse, the originalroadhouse.
I'll get enough sleep when I'mdead.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
Yeah, there you go yeah, you know, I just yeah I do
wish patrick swayze found outwhat it was like too young no
doubt he was.
He was here in the originalroadhouse.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
I know, man, trust me , man, I'm ripping throats out
dude, you know, sorry, I justdid that to him.
So what about?

Speaker 3 (56:37):
you, mark?
I mean, what keeps you going?
I mean, as you say, you've gotfive more years left.
I think you're going to dobetter Cigarettes, so what keeps
me going?

Speaker 1 (56:45):
Yeah, two ex-wives, five kids, um, it's a.
It's a hungry machine.
I mean, my god, hungry machine.
That's a hungry 13 year old inprivate school, two college
tuitions, four of them ininvisalign at once.
I mean, come on like a lot ofladies, okay, or it's because

(57:06):
you don't have a son, do you?
No, I don't how many daughtersI got a grandson, five, a total.
Five daughters, yeah, four,four original ones and one
stepdaughter.
It's like a daughter.
I mean, you're just shellingout though, bro.
Yeah, I am, but now it's, Idon't know, I think it's, I
think it's, I do think it's.

(57:26):
You know, it gets boring to justdo the same thing.
I mean it's sort of like mycars and motorcycle thing and my
house thing.
You know, I've done more housesin Fayetteville than anybody
else and everybody thinks, oh,they associate me with this
craftsman style.
Okay, I'm out of that, I'mbored with it, I'm not into it,
I'm not doing it.

(57:47):
I'm in mid-century modern now,cars, I never got locked into
one thing.
I like hot rods, I likePorsches, I like old cars, I
like new cars, motorcycles, Inever got stuck on one brand.
Okay, I just think it's, it's,it's your nature either to, um,
just be super hyper focused onone thing, or be like the three

(58:10):
of us are, which is we'reconstantly, you know, going out
on these other exploratorymissions, yeah, and down these
other paths.
It's just it.
It's not necessarily the way tomake the most money, though,
but I think it is the way to bethe most um fulfilled and keep
your brain alive.

(58:30):
No doubt you know, you know, nodoubt.
I just think everybody faces Idon't know what.
Everybody's got differentnumbers in mind of how much you
got to make or have, or whatever, but, you know, not everybody's
motivated by the same thing,and I think the people I seem to
have the most respect for arethe ones who don't just do what

(58:54):
they do to just make more andmore and more money, but are
trying to branch out and do newstuff.
Yeah, yeah, it just seems likea better path for personal
fulfillment, doesn't it?
Oh yeah, you know, but it's notnecessarily the most lucrative.
I mean, you look at the peoplewho make the most amount of

(59:15):
money.
It's like they started I builthotels, and I'm 22 and I'm 82
and I'm still building hotels.
Okay.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
That's the way, you know.
Doesn't wake me up in themorning, though, man.
It doesn't I, you know, I'm tooentrepreneurial for that.
I want to keep going and tryingnew things.
Um, that's, that's just my DNA.
I get you.
I think we're all like that forbetter, for worse.
Yeah, you know, I would say thatnow, you know, um, I'm probably
starting to slow down a littlebit on that and try to smell the

(59:42):
roses a little bit more, but,uh, I'm not sticking around on
one rose too long, you know, I'mI'm, I'm moving forward.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Yeah, I think your, your success and in your ability
to be a good teacher and mentorto others, um is going to be
enhanced, yeah, by that approachum to.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
I agree with lots of life what I tell my students and
reason why I develop.
You know, I think you knowfriendships or mentorships with
a lot of them that I keep intouch with.
I actually give a damn aboutthem.
I mean, I'm not.
I'm not Dude, I'm with you.
Yeah, it's not.
I'm not doing this job becauseI make good money.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
You're doing it for the gratification you get out of
helping these other people andseeing them succeed and their
relationships.
Yeah, I mean it's fantastic.
I just showed my wife lastnight it was funny you say that,
but just last night I showedher a picture on LinkedIn of one
of my former students with hisinsurance agency and probably 30
employees.
Insurance agency bears his name.

(01:00:43):
They're all there.
I said this is one of my formerstudents, that's cool.
Look at this guy yeah, man.
Look at how successfully he'sgot 600 new clients last year.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
That's cool, you know , that's a legacy.
That's a legacy, man.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
You know way to go.
That's right.
I just saw another one of myformer students over here at the
coffee shop this morning.
That's cool, you know, I justlove seeing him be successful.
I'm with you on that Same.
That's why we're doing thispodcast.
Yep, we may not get thefeedback from everybody we can
influence, but doggone it, we'retrying to help people get into

(01:01:20):
it and get through it.
There you go, you know, getinto business and get through
business and be a success in theend as success is.
You define it as the end assuccess as you define it as the
individual, not societynecessarily, that's right, mark,
that was some beautifulemotional shit, man.
Thanks, buddy Is that what I'mtalking about, man.

(01:01:43):
You're all about the emotions.
That's why I love you.
I love you too, man.
You say I'm not emotional Dude.
I can cry at an AT&T commercial.
Just ask my wife yeah, I lovetoo, man.
You see, I'm not emotional dude.
I can cry at an AT&T commercial.
Just ask my wife yeah, I loveHallmark movies.
They make you cry.
Yes, they do, dude, I do cry atmovies a lot.
I watched that one the othernight.

(01:02:04):
Just get pitched, don't look atme, man.
I watched that one.
It ends with us.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
That's real controversial right now with
blake lifelike.
Have you seen that?
My wife tried to make me watch.
That was too emotional.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
It was good, I thought it was you know what the
most I I've watched?
I've watched this scene amillion times and I cry every
time.
What's that?
Have you ever seen?
The patriot?
Oh yeah, you know.
When the little girl runs tomel gibson, oh it's horrible,
leave, I'm crying right nowbreaks.
It breaks me every time.
Oh yeah, it's horrible.
It breaks me Like I can't helpit, like I know it's coming.
I'm like don't cry.

(01:02:37):
And I start crying.

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
You're breaking me down here, right here, that's
stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
That's some good stuff.
Well listen, we're getting offthe track here.
I think it's time we wrap thisup, but it Jesse and Misha has,
hasn't it?

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
Yeah, I've always wanted to be on here.
You guys are a lot of fun, youknow.
And, mark, I value yourreputation.
Nate, no smoke.
I know you don't likecompliments, so get over it.
Here it comes.
It's hug time.
It's hug 30.
Yeah, you know is yourreputation around the
universities is unbelievable.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
You know, when I hear my students talk about you it's
just great.
So I appreciate what you'redoing.
Thanks, it's kind of you to say.
I just hope my rate, myprofessor ratings, reflect that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:18):
That's still brutal, right oh yeah, I'm telling you,
man, how is it some of theprofessors who I hate this a
question.
We're going to have nine moreminutes, all right.
How is it?
Some of the how some of now Igotta go to some of the
professors would be how are theynot on?
Rate my professor and, and Iknow some of those guys are
a-holes, so why aren't they onthere?
How do you get off?
I can't tell you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
It's a secret thing, man, you're not there yet, bro,
I mean you got to know thesecret.

Speaker 3 (01:03:42):
Hey, my score's pretty good right now, so your
at Mark's is great.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
I bet it is.
You know, they used to rate you.
To rate you, did you know that,with chili peppers as to how
hot you worked, did?
Yes, they had a rating systemfor how hot you were.
I never got a single chilipepper, and this goes back 20
years.
So, wow, man, that's so.
You know, man.
So forget all the ratings ofhow beautiful you get chili

(01:04:08):
pepper.
Now I I never got it.
That never really bothered.
But my former mother-in-law didand, believe me, she didn't
deserve it.
But I'll leave it at that.
That's not right.
No, that ain't right.
So no, they dumped that system.
I guess that was considered toosexist or something, come on,
inappropriate.
That's good grief.

(01:04:28):
So no more chili peppers, butthanks.
Thanks, jesse.
No, it's great having you here.
We'd love to have you backagain.
Would you come?

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
back.
I would be honored to.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
Bring your brother psychoanalyze us.
Yeah, and I think there'sreally something on to this
practitioner, academic side.
To take something that isotherwise some really boring,
unreadable stuff and convert itinto something that's relevant,
I think it'd be fun, who knows?

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Well, I think it's great when it comes from
somebody like you, who's beenthrough the ups and downs and
made it through and has atremendous business that bears
your name and has transformeditself multiple times.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
I'm not man, I'm not resting.
You know, the thing to wrap meup here would be you know, we
all remember when the Seahawksplayed the Patriots, right.
You know, we all remember whenTony Romo dropped the extra
point.
That's what keeps me up atnight, every night.
It's first and goal at thispoint, and you know it does like
that you were a Texas kicker.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
I was watching yesterday Poor Auburn.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
Bad day for that guy.
They ended up winning, but Iwould say, man, I'm not resting,
you know, and I don't take thesuccess for granted because I
know I was eating poo-poo fouryears ago, so you know we're
going to get this into the endzone.
Yeah, I love it Good.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
All right, Well, until next week.
This has been another episodeof Big Talk About Small Business
.

Speaker 4 (01:06:05):
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk
About Small Business.
If you have any questions orideas for upcoming shows, be
sure to head over to our website,
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(01:06:25):
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