Ep. 71 - The Hidden Value of a Great Business Partner

Ever found yourself in the odd predicament of feeling busier than ever, even after a major life shift? That's exactly what we're chatting about as we swap personal tales of juggling the ordinary yet relentless tasks of small business ownership, like dealing with tech returns or the infamous RV winter prep. These little victories on our to-do lists? They're gold, and we're celebrating them with a good dose of humor and commiseration. 

Our journey then takes us through the ever-shifting terrain of entrepreneurship. Imagine the leap from stagecoaches to railroads—that's what today's fast-paced technological era feels like. We discuss the art of adaptation and how history's lessons from the past can illuminate the path for modern entrepreneurs. From e-commerce innovations to companies like Walmart setting new benchmarks, it's all about embracing the inevitable change and learning how to thrive amidst the chaos.

Lastly, we unpack the intricate dance involved in business partnerships, especially the balance between those who steer the ship from behind the scenes and those who take the spotlight. Here's the thing—every cog in the wheel counts, and recognizing these dynamics is crucial for harmony and success. We dive into how clear role distinctions and early collaboration between different leadership roles can prevent resentment and foster mutual respect. Plus, we share our thoughts on choosing the right consultants and the power of connecting with our vibrant small business community.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
okay, everyone, I'm back here with my partner in
crime, aiden quinn, doppelgangereric howerton.
How's it going this morning,eric?
Going fantastic, more good.
Well, this is another episodeof Big Talk about small business

(00:27):
.
It's going to be a good showthis morning.
I think we've got a lot to talkabout.
There's a lot going on.
I'm super busy right now.
Everybody hates to hear thatthey don't give a shit how busy
you are, but I am really busy.
I'm with you, man.
I don't feel like I'm doing agreat job.
I'm not one either, I.
They don't give a shit how busyyou are, but I am really busy.
I'm with you, man.
I don't feel like, are youdoing a great job?
I'm not one either, but it'slike I really don't, it's.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
This is actually a counseling session for me.
It's okay, isn't it?
It's y'all gonna be okay I Idon't know.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Okay, cool, I don't know.
I I I'm just not as motivatedas I usually am.
I, I mean, I think I'm toohappy.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
You know that's a big deal getting comfortable it is.
I mean, that was uh, uh, it'sbeen one of my struggles in the
last couple of years.
After you know you, you exitout of a company and it's just
this, this, you're like currenthurt mentality.
You know, just like, oh, youjust chill or do this, you got,
I mean and but I've actually Ihad a.
I fought against that prettyhard.

(01:26):
I'm overcome, yeah, and Iactually, you know the funny
thing, you just you create crapto make sure that you can't get
comfortable.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
That's where that's the problem with people like us.
Yeah, we just keep joining newthings and taking on new
problems and well we get excitedlike you meet somebody and they
got, they got something going.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
You're like, oh, hell , yeah, let's do that.
Yeah, I know the next thing.
You know you have about 20meetings and that's like no, why
am I doing this?

Speaker 1 (01:53):
is this I really need to do?

Speaker 2 (01:55):
that, my thing is just like so true, you know, the
amount of information and thediscussions and conversations
and alignment is just really.
I mean, that's the drainingthing.
I mean like, sometimes I feellike like I talk all day, every
day, you know, and that can be alittle bit exhausting.

(02:15):
Did you get anything done,though?
No, I don't think so, and Istill have all the things that
I'm supposed to be getting doneand I feel like that too.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
But then there's just like things like cleaning up my
giant toolbox.
I'd love to get that done, youknow, but it's just never gonna
happen.
No, you know, I mean I justneed, I need to do that, yeah,
and just even driving my rv tothe truck place to get it worked
on was like oh god, I gottadrive the rv to their truck

(02:42):
place.
I'm glad you experienced thattoo.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
I'm like dude, some of the dumbest, smallest, stupid
things I struggle so hard with.
Okay, so I bought a Starlink,right, the mobile internet deal.
I got sold on an email.
That's a Starlink.
It's actually a great deal, oh,I'm sure.
But I got the mini kit thingwhere it's mobile.
You got to figure out how tohook all that up.

(03:09):
Well, I bought it from thisemail.
I had a discount because I wasalready a subscriber, whatever.
So I get it in.
I'm like I really did, I reallyneed it.
I mean, like I was like, well,this would be cool if I could be
in my truck and have likereally great internet, yeah, no
matter where you are.
Yeah, yeah, but it wasn'tconducive for what I needed once
I got it.
But I got it, set it all up andlike okay.
And then I like immediatelyrepackaged it and I'm like shit,
now I've got to send this damnthing back, right and so and

(03:30):
then you procrastinate on thatright Dude big time.
So I, like, had submitted thereturn online.
I got that done and then itgave me my shipping label and
literally for I mean, I promiseyou kid you not 10 full business
days.
I had that stupid Starlinkriding shotgun in my truck.
I'm there all the time.
I hadn't printed up my labelyet and I finally got it done

(03:52):
yesterday.
But I had to like, didn't itfeel?
Good it felt great.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
I was like I got something it's so true, I have
so many things like that Like Igot this setup that allows me to
winterize my rv with a built-incompressor.
Yeah, you've probably I meanyou've had rvs.
You know about painting.
I hate winterizing.
I will do anything to avoid it.
I hooked up 50 amp service atmy house, but unfortunately and

(04:18):
I can plug heaters galore in,but you still have your tanks,
and your tanks aren't gettingheated unless the central
furnace is on in my unit.
Yeah, but then that burns gas.
Yeah, so now I'm gonna get thisguy I'm trying to get this guy
to convert my furnace to.
They have an electric add-on toyour gas furnace so I can keep
it plugged in then not winterizeit.
Then I can use it anytime.

(04:38):
Meanwhile, though, I got thiskit, I gotta install it.
It's overly complex.
Yes, I don't know when I'llever get that done.
My wife bought me something formy car, that is, it converts it
to Apple CarPlay, which it doesnot have currently.
Yeah, and it's likeridiculously complex.
Ok, it's like honey, I, youknow, I read these reviews.

(05:03):
It's like this.
Yeah, it's like I accomplishedit in eight hours.
I'm like you think I, you knowI read these reviews.
It's like this yeah, it's likeI accomplished it in eight hours
.
I'm like you think I'm going todisassemble the dashboard on my
Porsche for eight.
To hook the rear camera up, youhave to remove the rear bumper
from the car.
Okay, I'm not doing that.
You're not going to.
There's no way.
No.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
And it's like all this stuff and it just builds up
.
Yeah, you know, it's thedumbest thing.
My wife's like the opposite ofme, like she gets shit done so
fast.
Yeah, I'm just like, I justwatch her, you know, I'm just
like why do?

Speaker 1 (05:33):
you what's the time?
It's not like that she takes ona lot of stuff, she gets stuff
done, but it's like she's got 10things.
Yeah, yeah, that she you know.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
But I get jealous because, like she like hey, can
you do this?
I'm like, yeah, like she, youknow.
But I get jealous because likeshe's like hey, can you do this?
I'm like, yeah, like she askedme, literally, like I mean, it's
been again another 10 days.
She's like, hey, send me yourschedule.
Oh yeah, I get that all thetime.
Send me your, send me yourschedule for, because we want to
do a family vacation in likemay june.
She's like I just all you got,all you got to do is just send
me your schedule, like send me ascreenshot.

(06:03):
I haven't done it, it's been 10days.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
The first thing Sonia said to me today was send me
your schedule.
You haven't done that and I'mlike you didn't ask for it.
She goes.
Yes, I agreed, you weren'tpaying attention Same.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
It's got like last week Same thing.
One of my favorite stories it'syour wife calling you say hey,
you used my damn towel thismorning.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
I know I still can't believe that.
That doesn't sound like.
It's not like me.
I mean, I think she made amistake.
Not only did I use it, but thenI put it back in the same spot.
I think I knew that I itdoesn't make any sense.
No, but yeah anyway, we got alot of stuff that we got to do
and it gets overwhelming.

(06:45):
Sometimes some of it seemstrivial.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
But I do think that it's good for other folks that
are entrepreneurs to kind ofhear this banter because, like
you can, like I felt like what's, is there something wrong with
me, you know?
Am I missing a pill?
Is there a pill out there forsomebody to help me?
Because I can't get this?
Like, you asked me to schedulesomething and it's like the
hardest thing for me to do,because all I do is do that
every day on business.
Sure, you know, it's like Idon't want to, I don't want to

(07:12):
look at another date in time andfigure that out.
It's just, you know.
But I mean, I think that it'sjust, it's just part of the part
of the mix, man.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
I mean there's just too much, too much flying at us,
yeah, and the tendency is toovercommit, and if you're not,
then you overcommit.
Yeah, if you find yourself notovercommitted, you'll
immediately go back intoovercommitment mode, even if you
don't need to.
It's like.
But this house down the streetand we're redoing it and, like
you know, it's like God.
I got to order the doors forthat, I got to get Sonia to make
the decision on the bathroomtile for the bathroom.
Then I'm like, well, why am Idoing this house?

(07:51):
What?
What is the point of this?
Well, why did I?
I've got him, yeah, what?
I'm down there like unscrewingblinds and stuff and throwing
them in the dumpster, and that'swhat you're doing.
Yeah, you know, with this timeit's not the quote highest and
best use of my time it's not atall, but it's got to get done.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
It does Because sometimes it's harder to call
people and depend on otherpeople to get it done.
You know.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
It really is, but anyway.
So we're busy, we've got a lotto do, we've got a lot of
businesses, we've got a lot oftalk about businesses.
Yeah, yeah, and we're just likea lot of other small business
owners and entrepreneurs.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
True, I think we're pretty typical.
I do too.
I think that the key word hereis like chaos, right, and they
kind of like so I do actuallyhave a little bit of a history
lesson.
Okay, hit me, yeah.
So I mean, I don't have it verysourced out, although it is
from the book AmericanEntrepreneur, the same book that
we've talked about before.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
It's not the only book you've read by the way.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
No, it's not.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
You've read a lot of these books.
I just want to point that outto our listeners.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
I appreciate that.
That's a good point, yeah, butit is the one that helped me
discover who I am, right, right,right, because there's it's a
book chock full of basically youknow a little bit folks that
are off the grid somehow.
Right, they just, you know,there's not like a career choice
for it, yeah, but it was veryfounding and helped me

(09:14):
understand.
Oh, I might be an entrepreneur,yeah, when I was reading all
these stories.
But what I like about readingthis history is that we think
that today's time, withtechnology, artificial
intelligence, all thiscomplexity that's going on, it
might leave people feeling veryvulnerable, don't know what

(09:35):
decision to make and whatnot,but the history proves that
we're not really living in adifferent time.
It's just a different mix ofthings that are impacting the
chaos.
Right, because if we rewind backin the early days of America,
you know something that we takevery for granted today is
transportation.
Like how do you get goods andproducts from, you know, New

(09:56):
York city to Philadelphia?
Right, it's easy today, really.
Yeah, a million options.
Yeah, yeah, you don't thinkabout it, but at one point it
was like the thing to figure out.
Yeah, it's like how am I goingto get that?
Yeah, it's like how do we goget more produce for all the
people that are packed in NewYork City?
Because up to a certain point,everybody lived within 100 miles
of each other.
Because you couldn't.

(10:18):
Transportation getting to arural area was not only
difficult but very dangerous.
Area was sure.
Not only difficult, yeah, verydangerous, you know they were.
They would say like if you, youknow, on a typical stagecoach
ride on the old roads that theywould build, yeah, like you
would expect that your, yourcoach, would tip over at least
one time or get robbed, or getyou know or get like indians

(10:39):
killing you.
You know somebody dies, you knowI mean like there's, there was
dangerous as hell right, and sothey were.
You know the chaos was they'rebuilding roads to get goods back
and forth, you know.
And then there's obviouslygreat better farmland, you know,
around the great lakes area andyou know and all the you know
there's just better area areasto grow produce and so they're

(11:02):
building these roads.
But all that danger was thereand it was extremely expensive
and obviously before likefreaking bulldozers and shit
right.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, it's like about there's 10 000 guys to be out
with pickaxe.
That's right.
Could you imagine?

Speaker 2 (11:15):
building a freaking road with like no power tools
like that.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, no saws to cut jury stuff.
No, just like these two guys oneither end of some six-foot
long thing.
Yeah, then how do you get?

Speaker 2 (11:25):
the root ball out.
Yeah, I mean, have you evertried to get a root ball?
Oh man, I mean, like it's thehardest.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
I have really good tree guys who have every kind of
stump grinder you can imagine,so it's never a problem for me.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, but try to do it with your hand.
Oh, week, you know, but anyway.
So they came up, they found,you know, the.
There was an industry, therewas private investors and there
was government trying to buildthese stagecoach roads right to
transport.
Well, that was starting to takeoff.
People's money was going inbehind that right and a lot of

(11:58):
investment.
But then in came a competitiveform of transportation for
products and goods, which wasbuilding canals.
Okay, you know, sure, and soyou have all these folks stuck
in the road building thatthought that was going to go.
Well, then all of a sudden,canals come in and start
competing and taking over.
It's a lot easier.
So, all those.

(12:18):
But we can look at history andgo, oh well, it's not a big deal
, I mean, they just moved thecanals.
But actually it's not a bigdeal.
I mean they just moved thecanals.
But actually you got toremember, there was a lot of
people that had a lot of moneybehind the roads, right, that
lost everything now.
And so you had this massive,you know, paradigm shift of of
this that destroyed an oldbusiness, yes, made it obsolete,
and then comes this new one,but that one came with a lot of

(12:39):
problems too, right, yeah, andso then railroads took that over
right and dominated the canals,and so you had a lot of people
that were building ships, youknow, all these side businesses,
these economies, yeah, alongthe canals that are based on
that, based on that entire thing.
What livelihoods, families, Imean before health insurance,
right, I mean it's like.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
It's like old route 66.
They had gas stations andmotels and everything and they
thrived until they put theinterstate in.
That was gone right.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
But we tend to, in today's time, think about what.
You know we can't hurt thoseother businesses.
Like how do we sustain folksthat are like still doing things
without AI or without a website?
Like you protect the small ones.
You know you can't.
You can't do that Because thereality is that the faster,

(13:32):
better, cheaper option is alwaysgoing to win.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Well, it's like the people who objected to like
Walmart coming into small townsand providing groceries.
It's like, well, it put the IGAout of business or whatever.
Yeah, you went to the IGA.
The produce was bad, the meatwas bad.
Okay, the prices were too high,things were out of stock.
Yeah, walmart comes in.
Everything's better, it's allcheaper, it's all fresher.

(13:58):
Okay, yes, the local store isgoing to go out.
They deserve to go out ofbusiness.
Unfortunately, store is goingto go out.
They deserve to go out ofbusiness.
Unfortunately, we're not goingto save them.
That's, you know, as much asI'm sympathetic to the local
business, push.
You know people support localbusiness, or whatever.
I'll support local business ifthey do something for me that
somebody else doesn't do.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Well, they have to they have to evolve, they have
to adapt.
I mean, like the ever anybody,that's everybody, anybody that's
in business.
You know, you have tounderstand that it is a and I
think this is the point is likeit's always been challenging,
there's always been interruption, there's always changes, right,
and it's always going to go tothe faster, better, cheaper off.

(14:39):
Yes, period, that's what winsevery time, and right, and you
can't win, you can't resist.
It's what should win, it's whatshould and it's what wins every
time.
Right, and you can't win, youcan't resist it.
It's what should win, it's whatshould and it's what does.
Yeah, it's just freakingreality.
Yeah, so if you're right, youknow the point is it's like if
we're hearing about artificialintelligence, we're hearing
about all these things, thosethings are becoming popular
because they're making thingsfaster, better, more accurate

(15:07):
and cheaper, and so I hear a lotabout resisting that change
because we're trying to savecertain roles which it's just
not going to happen.
No, I understand you have toparticipate.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
I'm not going to say you have to grow into it.
Yeah, I don't know anythingabout AI.
Thank God I'm so old that atsome point I won't do anything
other than just figure out whereI'm going to eat at night,
which still does preoccupy a lotof my time.
Well, it will be able to takecare of you, because neither my
wife nor myself likes to cook.
She would ask me sometimes well, what are we doing for dinner

(15:38):
tonight?
I'm like you tell me what arewe doing for dinner tonight,
because I don't feel like that.
Now you could just ask AI, youknow.
But no, but you're right.
I mean it's so true.
I mean we get into the whole AItopic and how so many
white-collar jobs are going togo away.
Blue-collar jobs are going tobe the ones that pay the money.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
They're safer right now.
They are.
They are safer right now.
They are safer right now.
But again, until there's AI,like I mean the lawn industry,
right, the what?
The lawn industry?
It's chock full of a lot ofblue-collar and laborers, right,
sure, but they do have roboticmowers mapped out with GPS.
They can mow your yard with AI,you couldn't mow my yard.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
You can.
If there's too many obstacles,you can't but I promise you it
will.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
Somebody will actually get figured out better
than anybody could ever do ityeah, no, I believe you, it's
coming, it's happening, right?
so the thing that you have to dois you have to start being a
student of that, embracing it,figuring out to survive it, to
capitalize on it, becausethere's no alternative, there is
no savior to it, right?

(16:49):
And I think the point of thehistory to me is I rewind back
and I'm like there was no saviorback then.
There's definitely not going tobe today.
Better, faster, cheaper alwayswins yes, and so that's the
reality as an entrepreneur yesPeriod, you got to love
entrepreneur.
Yes Period, you gotta, yougotta, you gotta love it.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, and you've got to be willing to pay attention
to what's going on and totallyquote, pivot, as they like to
say, or evolve, even change,yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Um.
According to grace, utilizeleverage Right.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
You know it's.
You know it's.
It's always been interesting tome.
It's like business planning.
You know, you try to set thisbusiness plan up and then you
launch your business.
Usually things don't goaccording to the plan Right, so
you make changes in it.
It's kind of like that.
Let's like building a house.
It's the same way.
Yeah, you can come up with thebest plans in the world, but
when you start building it andyou're walking around in there

(17:44):
and you go wait a minute Now,why is that like that?
Yeah, we could do somethingdifferent here.
Maybe we should push this out,maybe we should change this
configuration.
Whatever, you'll end up with abetter product.
Yeah, that's the bottom line.
I mean, you can't planeverything out.
You do.
Entrepreneurship in large part,to me, is based on how you

(18:07):
respond to what is going onaround you.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
Absolutely 100, you know 100 there are.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
There's always the freaks, the outliers that don't
change anything, that aresuccessful businesses, but
they're in the minority, verymuch so.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
Like a lot of it comes down to nostalgia,
historic or it's just a brand,there's an affinity to it.
But one point is back to thelocal business.
If I was a retail shop and I'vealways depended and I built my
business back in the 80s, rightor whatever, and that was the
way things were going back then.

(18:46):
But incomes, e commerce, allthis convenient stuff there are
tools that you can research andemploy that will make your
business an omni channelconvenient business so that you
can grab more business.
Leveraging somebody else's hardwork with the technology yeah,

(19:06):
you just have to invest in that,you have to be willing to
embrace that.
Sure it in and most of theinvestment is learning, really
that's.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
It takes more time than it is money right.
But if you're tired, you don'twant to change and you want, and
you know like it's just, I'msorry I just went in this store
with my wife last night beforewe went out to eat, and it's a
new store and we're looking atit's women's clothing, you know,
and they had nice stuff inthere and everything.
The owner was in there and Iwas like, wow, I go.
You really took the leap,didn't you?

(19:35):
She goes what do you mean?
I go, you bought all thisinventory, okay, I mean you're,
okay, you're looking around,going, holy shit, $200 sweaters,
yeah, $300 coats.
You bought all this stuffhoping somebody's going to find
you and come along and buy it.
It's a pretty gutsy move if youthink about it.

(19:57):
I'm not sure how much.
Very smart it is.
Very gutsy man, you know.
But I hope she makes it.
But you know, you wonder, like,what are people thinking?
Are they?
Do they really think about?
Like, what's going to drivesomebody to come here instead of
going on my internet andsearching for exactly what I
want, pushing a button and 24hours later it lands on my

(20:19):
doorstep, or even faster thanthat?
I tell you I bought somethingfrom Camping World the other day
.
I ordered it on a Sunday night.
On Monday morning it wasdelivered to my door without any
postage or anything.
In other words Camping World,grabbed it from the nearest

(20:40):
Camping World location, which isin Rogers or Lowell, and
somebody brought it to my house.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
It called omni channel mart.
Wow, that's exactly what theway by that.
So, but that point is exactlywhat I've been on the free, you
know the high horse about foryears regarding walmart, like
when they got the distributionsystem.
If because of their stores, thatis the nut to crack.
How can they do thatefficiently and effectively
every single time?
And I mean, yes, you can.

(21:09):
My point was always been Icould order a Coke Zero on
Amazon and it'll get here in 24hours, and everybody thinks
that's so convenient, right, butwhat if I can order a Coke Zero
and it gets here in fiveminutes?
I'm always going to choose fiveminutes.
Same price, more convenience,that wins.
And that kind of goes back tothis whole statement with the

(21:32):
history too is like the faster,better, cheaper option always
wins, and so that's what-.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
That's the main advantage, you're right, that
Walmart has over Amazon.
Is that huge decentralizeddistribution network represented
by stores For your everydayneeds, man, yeah, that could be
sources of whatever it is, andreduces the transportation time,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
It's a hard thing to crack man.
They've been working hard at it, but they're getting closer
every day.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
We've got this right over here.
Less than half a mile from hereis a drone station where they
send stuff out by a drone.
It's very cool.
It is cool, but yeah, sothere's a lot of change out
there.
You can embrace it or youcannot.
Yep.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Just like the stagecoach builders, and you
didn't want to get in the canalbusiness.
You may have to in the canalbusiness, you may have you.
You I mean yeah, because youdidn't want to do it, because
you did want to evolve.
I mean there's clearindications Do canals.
They can ship heavier goods,they can do it in a faster time
and it's less dangerous.

(22:39):
The customer's going to wantthat right.
It's just makes more sense.
Customer's going to want thatright.
It just makes more sense.
But you stay in the stagecoachbusiness because you're just so
adamant that you're going tocontinue to do well and it will
shift on you.
It will not.
It will not happen.
I hear you You've got to evolve.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
I hear you let's grab a topic out of the head here.
Let's do that before we getinto our other topic today.
This one's really long the Spa.
Oh, consultants, I don't knowCon-sultants.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's a really long one, it just has that one word
on there Con.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
I think is a big part of it.
Oh damn, consult it.
Ooh, con, are they conning youor are they really doing?
Look, there's consultants thatare very valuable, there's no
question about it.
Not everybody needs to havefull-time people doing something

(23:46):
that they're going to do onceor not all the time or don't
have that depth of expertise in.
But there's also a lot ofconsultants out there selling
programs that are one size fitsall programs and they make a
business out of it, and I have alot of respect for that.
Yeah, yeah, what do you?

Speaker 2 (23:58):
think.
I think that you know, on yourcon side, right, it comes down
to an individual, because it'sdifficult to be a consultant
without you genuinely caringabout the outcome of who you're
consulting with.
Sure, and if you're good, Imean yeah, yeah, but I mean like

(24:20):
, but you're talking about theconsultant is a human right,
right, they have their own stuffgoing on.
Yeah, but you're talking aboutthe consultant is a human right,
right, they have their ownstuff going on.
It's hard to determine if thatparticular person genuinely
cares about the outcome of myorganization that I'm fully
invested in, and I think it's alittle bit more dangerous for
small business owners.
You know, like I have spent.

(24:43):
There's been times I've spenttoo much money and have put
myself in further.
I had a problem I needed adviceand consultancy with.
I invested in a consultant andI got nothing in return from it.
I basically just got morequestions and more problems than
I did to begin with.
It did not help me move anystep closer to where I was
trying to get to.

(25:04):
That is dangerous for a smallbusiness owner who has a tight
budget, right, they can't affordto waste time or money, exactly
Like it's all in the lining,yeah, and so you have to be very
, very, very careful about that,and I think that the reality to
it is is if does thisconsultant?
Do they genuinely care aboutthe outcome in your investment

(25:25):
with them?
Because they're probably notgoing to appreciate it much
because the consultant'sbusiness is based upon.
I need to, I need to get paidfor my time.
You know, get in, get up, getin and get out, move on to the
next one.
You just got to be reallycareful with that, especially
when you have a consultancyagency that that's their entire
business model and they seem tomaybe have a secret that you

(25:47):
don't have as a business ownerto what you're trying to get to.
And they come in and then youcan I mean, like you can only
get so much out of it unless youpay more money.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
I think part of the problem too is like the big guys
, they have experts that sellyou the job but then when it
comes to actually doing it, youget a lot of neophytes.
You know what I mean?
Yep, if you look at like thereally big companies and how
they do things same thing with,like accountants many times you
know the partners are the onethat sell the engagement and

(26:17):
then after that you're stuckwith like two year out of school
people doing your audit.
So that can be definitely be aproblem.
You don't get the real experts,yeah, but then you have other
types of consultants whobasically tell business owners
what they want to hear.
Yeah, and that's dangerous too,mm-hmm, you know, because they

(26:38):
feel like they can't lose theclient, they can't alienate the
client, yeah, they're afraid tobe honest with them, yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
And I'll be honest too.
I think, as an entrepreneur,there's really not ever a secret
sauce I haven't learned.
There isn't.
The only really secret is thegrind.
Who works harder, who's workinglonger, who's working?

Speaker 1 (27:00):
faster and smarter.
I mean people hate to hear thatthey do.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
I hate to realize it myself.
I have to check myself, dude,like we were talking at the very
beginning of the show.
Might be tired, got too muchstuff going on, but what's the
answer?
I'm working my ass off.
Yeah, you know, I mean that'sit, it is, and because I know
that it becomes intimidating,but just got to do it, man.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
I always, whenever anybody tells me they got a
business that's not performingwell and they're looking for
whatever it is, I'm like dude,there's probably 20 things.
Okay, it's not one thing that'sgonna fix your problem.
No, but that's that is, though.
Back on the topic ofconsultants, I like dealing with

(27:46):
people who know something aboutnot just the discipline that
they provide.
Let's say that's accounting orsoftware development or whatever
it is.
I want people who understand myindustry from a broader
perspective than just theirdiscipline expertise.
I think that's when you got thediscipline expertise coupled

(28:08):
with the industry knowledge.
You can't just have disciplineexpertise and no industry
knowledge and do the right job.
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, that is usually thedistinguishing factor.
Yep, on whether or not theconsulting engagement is going
to turn out well.
Yep, very true, you know Verytrue.

(28:29):
It's going to turn out well.
Yep, very true, you know verytrue.
Um, they, they got tounderstand my industry on a
broader level than just whatthey do.
So, anyway, there are a lot ofconsultants out there.
There's consultants foreverything under the sun, and
you know, talk with theirreferences, um, check them out,
check out their reviews.

(28:49):
Look in their references.
Check them out, check out theirreviews.
Look in their eyes.
Yeah, meet them face to face.
You know, have somewell-written contracts for what
it is you expect them to do andhopefully it will turn out to be
a positive relationship.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Take bite sizes out of it.
Don't overcommit, don't get insome long engagement.
Make sure there's action to it,like where's the?

Speaker 1 (29:18):
action at, I can tell you.
I mean, I was a consultant formany years, most of my career,
and I was always very consciousof being able to justify the
benefits of what we'd done andtry to quantify that.
When I had clients that Iworked with every year you know,
on annual agreements I alwayswanted to summarize what we got

(29:39):
done that year.
Go make a presentation to themface-to-face yeah, you know,
because they don't always knoweither.
Yeah, you know to to, becausethey don't always know either.
You know.
Sometimes they're so high up inthe organization that they're
unaware of how far down into thecompany you're going to fight.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
You got to kind of fight to prove your value at all
times as a consultant.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Continue to sell.
Yeah, you have to.
Yeah, it's true.
So, anyway, today we were goingto talk about business partners
.
Great Love that.
And you know what is a goodbusiness partner for a small
business owner, slashentrepreneur, and what doesn't

(30:25):
always work out so well, right,right, for business partners for
, uh, business founders,entrepreneurs, small business
owners.
There really are somedistinctions out there.
Um, you know, um, there was achapter in my book I think it
was something, to the effect ofwhy everyone needs a Fred.

(30:45):
Yeah, and it was talking aboutmy original business partner at
the company that's Zweig Grouptoday.
It was Zweig White, and justhow instrumental Fred White was
in the success of our business,and I just think he's he
presents a good example of whatis a good formula for a business

(31:08):
partner, and, in a nutshell,that is somebody who is not like
you.
They do, they know what youdon't do.
Well, and you know they're.
They're totally different.
I don't think that's thetendency, though, of a lot of
people.
When they get a partner, theythink, oh, we really get along.
Great, we're just alike, weshould be partners.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
You know not good, two strategic visionary people
is a bad, bad deal, man well, ortwo great sellers who don't
know how to do long-termimplementation.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, that's not no structure.
Yeah, I mean, I I do think yougot to be in line in terms of
what your values are and likewhat you're supposed to do with
the business.
Sure, sure, yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
But I'm talking about skill sets.
You got two big thinkers right.
You got to have somebody thatcan organize the thinking and
has the logic, and this is theemotional versus the logical
side.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, and the implementation side.
I mean, you know, I wouldn'twant to take.
On the other hand, I wouldn'twant to, like, take anything
away from a guy like Fred and go, well, here Fred could solve
these these big problems thattake a long time.
That he wasn't visionarybecause he was visionary too.
I mean, I wouldn't take thataway from him at all, but we
just had different attributes.

(32:24):
I was more external, he's moreinternal and and um, I think I
think you know you probablyexperienced a lot of that too
with.
You know, and I know we'vetalked some about this on the
show with, like js and your lastbusiness.
Yeah, you know he had certainskills that you didn't have, or
orientations, um, and and it.

(32:46):
You know, whatever my studentsor friends or people who reach
out to me or talk about lookingfor a business partner who's
going to provide more than money, yeah, I always encourage them
to find somebody who's the exactopposite of them.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
You know?
Yeah, for sure.
I mean here's what I've foundwith my previous business
partners was that they thinkabout things.
It's not necessarilydifferently, but they have a
different priority on certainthings.
Yes, you know what I'm saying.
Yeah, when you have priority oncertain things, it gets done
Right.
And I mean I could be walkingaround not thinking of anything

(33:28):
like what JS or Alex werethinking, but they were
prioritizing these things thatwere really crucial for the
business.
You know, long-term, short-termdidn't matter, but that being
on the top of their mind andtheir driving force when they
walk in the day, they're goingto make sure that that gets done
because it's important for thebusiness.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
I'm telling you, yeah , alex was more of a fred like
yeah, relationship.
I don't I didn't know js thatwell or what you guys did, other
than what I've learned.
Yeah, yeah, we're you knowperipherally, but, alex, I, I
know the guy and and I seeexactly what you're talking
about like he's going to be ableto implement longer range
things than you are.

(34:08):
Absolutely, you're going to befirefighting and you're going to
be reacting and he's going tobe methodically checking off A,
b, c, d, e, f.
Yeah, somebody needs to bedoing that.
Yeah, and we don't move ahead.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Well, and what I found was it's not just the big
discussions or decisions as muchwhich that's obviously very
important, you know to have thatbut it's also the daily
decisions, discussions, the oneoff conversations, even a
dialogue with a, with anemployee or whatever it might be
, because it's just a totallydifferent way of thinking.

(34:48):
I can have a meeting with anemployee.
It's just a totally differentway of thinking.
I can have a meeting with anemployee and if it was just me
and they thought like I did,we'd have this meeting and then
we would alienate them or wewould not give them any guidance
or any further direction orwhatever.
I'd be missing half of whatthat person, that employee,
needs in order to perform andfeel valuable.

(35:08):
But I mean like I couldn'timagine the thousands of of of
meetings or situations to whereI left the room and Alex would
carry on a secondaryconversation, to where he would
go into what his priority was,or vice versa.
We would have a meeting withemployee, alex would be leading

(35:29):
that or whatever, and I mighthave a secondary meeting with
the employee to give them whatwas priority for me in the way
that I felt and thought operated.
That would help that person.
Right, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yes, I get it totally .
I think you know another issuewith these partners, though that
, I think, is one that peopledon't talk about and and I
guarantee you that the Alex's orI don't know who else you know
you've ever worked with as apartner, or somebody like a Fred
, I'm sure at times had to feellike, why does this other person

(36:05):
get all the limelight?
The one who's the externalperson, ie you or me?
Sure, even though Fred wouldnever say that you know what I
mean, or Alex would never saythat.
You wonder, like, is thatdemotivational to them that they
don't get the limelight or thecredit maybe that they should

(36:26):
deserve?
Sometimes, I think founders andprimary owners really need to
think about that.
Yeah, because it can get.
It demotivates us for sure, andyou can't afford that.
They're too critical todemotivate.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
Well, I mean, I think that you, probably, the same
way that I felt too, is, I mean,like we're actually concerned
about that.
I mean you bring out that talkthat shows that you have concern
about it, right, because youknow that it's like I knew, you
knew it wasn't, I knew it wasn'tme all the time well, oh, you
mean you making everythinghappen?

Speaker 1 (37:03):
yeah, yeah, I knew, I knew that.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Oh, yeah, absolutely yeah, I certainly knew that and
I think that the you know, theinternal team probably knew that
.
But but it's what?
Externally clients or themarket or media or whoever right
yes, yes, and that alwaysplagued me.
I did not ever feel comfortableabout that, extroverted in the

(37:27):
campaign, in the market.
Yep, my entire specific purposewas to go and build that
campaign to, to talk, to talk,to walk the walk, to be the
person.
I mean I can walk up in a crowdof folks and I can spot folks
out, go talk to them.
No problem like that was just.
That's just easy.

(37:48):
It's what I love to do.
Yes, it was do.
It was always the top thing inmy head.
I was like who the hell am Igoing to meet today and how am I
going to make this happen?
Where am I going to show up at?
It's an interesting thingbecause of that priority and
that action.
It puts you in limelight, yes,and you're actually trying to

(38:09):
get that to drive the businessof course, so it's not just an
ego center.
No, no hell no, it's a it's anecessary thing.
Yeah, the damn house I get it.
Yeah, and your partner'ssupporting that because they
need you to go do that.
Yeah, because they don't, it'snot the forefront in their mind.
Yeah, it's not like the easything on their side.
Yeah, but once you get thatattention, like you're kind of

(38:30):
stuck in that because it's likeI actually didn't want that.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
There were many times like where I, would you know,
try to to divert from theattention yes, oh, I, I always
was conscious of that, but butyou can't do it because, right,
they don't care.
Yeah, whoever the outsiders,the they don't care.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yeah, the outsiders.
The outsiders don't care.
They want the person they'reseeing or hearing or being
referred to.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
I'm telling you this is a really big problem.
Yeah, if you think about it, itis.
I mean because over time, thoseother people may be more
critical to the business than weare.
Okay, oh, I would.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
I'll admit it.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
I'll admit it right now.
I can guarantee you we neverwould have been as successful if
it was just me versus somebodylike Fred who could make the
progress on these longer-terminitiatives.
That were the things thatreally differentiated us A
hundred percent.
You know what I mean, yeah.
But you know you do have towonder, like after a while.
But you know you do have towonder, like after a while, even

(39:29):
though they would state thatthat's not their goal to be in
the limelight at all becausethey're introverts, let's just
say, okay, it's still got towear on them at some point, like
you know what I deserve more.
And they do A hundred percent,they do, they did.
I mean it's.
So it is incumbent upon us totry to promote them and make

(39:52):
them feel like we recognize whatthey're doing Right, and I feel
like that.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
I, I, I here's.
All I can say is that I knowthat I, I, I did attempt to do
that.
Yeah, you know, like, genuinely, I didn't like it.
I didn't like any moreattention than what I mean in
all honesty, all what you neededto accomplish your goal, right,
yeah, and.
I didn't want, I mean even tothe employees.

(40:14):
Like we can take it a stepfurther.
You know, as somebody that likewhere you're, it's it was the
team that accomplished.
It was always the team, it wasalways the other folks.
Like I'll tell people all thetime, like I'm just a
professional coffee drinker man.
Yeah, like I can just havecoffee and talk some smack.
You know, I mean that's what Ifeel like, I mean that's what I
enjoy doing.

(40:35):
I mean it's, and just because Ienjoy that it puts me in those
positions.
But it was I'm not the onedoing the real, the real work or
the real thinking behind it.
You know there's certain thingsI contribute, but it's a very
small fraction into the overalldeal.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
It's necessary, though the flip side of it is
when people don't appreciatewhat you're doing, or it's the
quote founder, lead person nameon the door, whatever, and they
don't appreciate what you'redoing and, in fact, your
business partner is leading aquiet revolution against you,

(41:13):
that's yeah, because they don'tthink like you do.
That's a problem too, though?
Totally no, I mean.
And there's those quietrevolutions exist out there.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
They do I never.
I fortunately didn't experiencethat, but I can absolutely like
.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
I think the the message here is I never got that
from fred white, but I did getit from other people.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
Yeah, okay, yeah partners, sure, yeah, no, I'll
admit that too.
There was other people withinthe organization that that was.
That was as a divisiveness yes,exactly yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
they are promoting divisiveness and skepticism of
whatever direction you're taking, and that isn't healthy either.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
Oh God, no, it's devastating.
It's devastating to everything.
So I think the warning signthere is if you have a partner,
you have to have somebody thatis campaigning and you have to
have somebody that is operating.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
Yeah, that's a great way to look at it.
I mean like you're competingand operating.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
Amen Two highest pillars yeah, to bring a
partnership together yeah, Ilove that, yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
And are you a campaigner or are you an
operator?
Yeah, you need both.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
You need both.
But there's two sides of thattoo.
The, the, the campaigner needsto stay the hell mostly out of
the operational part.
Like you can't come in, likeyou can't be out campaigning,
run back in.
I learned that lesson the hardway.
I've become right back in, tryto get, try to change shit,
learn something up, blow it up.

(42:48):
Like you confuse everybody.
I walk out of the room thinkingI solved something, but what I
did was I created like 10 moreproblems.
Yes, yes, you know, and thenI'd have to.
I would have to be humbleenough, yeah, by the, by the
instruction or conversation withmy operating partner to not do
that.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
And I have to recognize how devastating that
was, I would be doing so muchbetter job today than I did 20
or 30 years ago.
Yeah, because I'm so much moreconscious of this than I was 130
years ago.
100, you know what I mean?
No, I'll do.
I know I would do a better.
At least I think I would.
Yeah, I'd certainly be moretuned into that.
Well, you already do that.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
You know, you already do that.
I see that.
When you know, do that.
I see that.
When you know, when you'releading the entities that you
have now and the people you'reworking with right, Like we know
where our boundary lines are,Like you can speak something out
, but they got to go make itreally happen and they have to
be the champion of that, butyou're just kind of watchful
about it, but you don't enterinto their territory.

(43:49):
No, you got to be careful.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
You got to respect the health.
You have to respect that.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
Yes, and I think the operator has to kind of to your
point we were talking aboutearlier and I can kind of see
this.
You know, the operators have tocome to the humility of also
that it's, yes, they deservemore attention, but the
campaigner, that's what theirjob is to do.

(44:15):
It's a, it's a like.
They can't want that as muchlike because, because what
happens is there's as acampaigner, there's nothing I
can do about that attention atsome point.
I have worked to get thatattention right.
You slit the fire, the fire'sburning, Slit the fire baby and
it's just there.

(44:35):
And the operator has to feelthat they have to be really
self-assured enough, in which myexperience was that they were
right 100%, which my experiencewas that they were right 100%,
that that's just the thing thatneeded to happen and it doesn't
alienate them.
You know they have to recognizethat that's just part of the

(44:59):
campaigner's job, Do you think?

Speaker 1 (45:00):
though that the operators look at the
campaigners and go you know what?
That guy's just full of bull.
He's just a good BS-er.
We're the ones that have toactually do this stuff and know
what we're doing.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
They're just bsers, so uh and in my experience my
experience I always felt likethey might be feeling that way,
but they would reassure me thatthat wasn't how they were
feeling.
Yeah well, that's good.
Yeah, no good.
But I mean, yeah well, I mean Ialways felt that way, right
like I always kind of felt likea little bit of bullshit in some
ways.

(45:31):
No, I understand, but I wasreally contributing.
Yeah, it's just hard.
I think it's like you know,like if you and I started a
business together, it might bepretty devastating in a way.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Yeah, I know We'd both be two campaigners.
That'd be the problem.
Maybe we should just do like ascience experiment with it.
There's two campaigners outthere, but you know, the funny
thing is I don't have to be acampaigner in every business
that I work with.
I can be an operator on somecases and an influencer, but not
the one in the limelight at all.

(46:02):
I'm doing that right now.
Yeah, you know you are, but youknow what this whole discussion
brings up?
An interesting thought for me,and I know you can relate to
this one.
Let's say I mean, I love thiscampaigner-operators thing,
dynamic.
Okay, what happens when yousell a business that was created

(46:28):
and managed and grown by thiscampaigner and this operator and
the campaigner goes away in thesale and the operator remains
and there's no other campaignerthat takes the place.
Or, let's say, the buyer putsin their own operators but they

(46:49):
lack the campaigner.
Don't you think that's one ofthe problems that occurs when
businesses are sold?
Oh, yeah, for sure that thecampaigner goes away and all
they've got is operators, forsure.
And if they got a really greatbrand and name and product,
whatever they can go on, theygot a lot of inertia.
They can go on for three, four,five, ten years, but at some

(47:12):
point that lack of a campaigneris going to really be felt and
that thing is going to falter.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
Yeah, 100%.
The campaigning job is a it'smysterious, you know.
I mean, in all honesty, it'slike if somebody asks, like you
know, and you can probablyrelate to this it.
It's like if somebody asks,like you know, and you can
probably like.
It's like if somebody askedwhat did I actually do?
Like how did how did Ipersonally contribute to

(47:38):
building a business I can'treally give any direct advice I
could.
I could describe a bunch ofthings, though but I could, yeah
, I could describe, but there'sa million things that mesh into
this deal but like, yeah, to methe most important things that
were done that I contributed towere very, um, were very like

(48:01):
magical in a way, in very micromoments of when sit, you know,
having a specific conversationwith a very specific person that
had to be at the right time atthe right place, saying the
right thing for the right need.
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Yeah, then you can't target that, no, I agree with
you.
But you know what you can do.
You can give yourself a lot ofopportunities to create that.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Well, no for sure, that's what I'm kind of, that
specifics, all those specificthings, somebody could go well,
that was lucky, okay, but itwasn't.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
I did that every day, all day, all day, exactly For
years and years.
That's the thing.
It's like throwing a thousandhoaxes in the water and then I
get the 40 pounder.
It is like fishing.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Yeah, it really is it is like fish.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Yeah, it really is persistence.
It's this, it's this like didyou get lucky when you got the
40?
But I mean, people will say youdid, you did, no, you did 10
000 casts, 10 000 baby okay toget it, but.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
But what people gotta understand is is, like you know
how many times I was castingand people knew I was casting
and getting nothing.
That was that.
That was a hard thing for mepersonally because, like you
know, to keep casting, keepcasting yeah, despite that, for
a minute I can't always no onebelieves it anymore.

(49:25):
You know, yeah, but you keepcasting and I mean, but but that
was.
That's why it's difficult, likeas a as the campaigner part
right to, to pinpoint what it isthat we actually do.
And but I also think that, liketo your question, if, if you
get acquired or other operatorscome in like they, they it's,
it's, it's squishy they don'tunderstand what that

(49:48):
campaigner's value really is.
They don't.
It's hard to understand thatvalue.
I tell you and I get it.
If I bought a company andthere's a campaigner and me
being as a campaigner, I'm likewhat the hell is that?
What the hell is she reallycontributing?
Or he's contributing to thiscompany.
You know what I mean.
Like they did their job.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, you might think , think that, but then you also
were going to be smart enough togo.
You know what the campaignergot this yeah.
Yeah, that's point too, but butit's there's.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
There's something to what they do, I think yeah,
there is, but you know, but youknow the campaigner has to be
it's, they have to.
You know they have to feel likea hunt, like to the fishing
analogy again, because it's alonely job.
Yes, it is, but they've got tofeel like a hunt.
Like to the fishing analogyagain, because it's a lonely job
, yes, it is, but they've got tofeel very intentional and
purposeful behind it, like theyhave got to believe that I will

(50:39):
catch the fish.
Yes, but if you take them outof the freaking out of the lake
or off the river and put themover here, they're not going to
be fishing anymore and sothey're going to be like what
the hell is my value?
That is so true, you know.
So it's a delicate, true, Idon't know.
I mean, are there good examplesof where a comp I mean I don't

(50:59):
like is there a good example ofwhere a company, even at the
biggest levels, have bought andacquired and taken and have a
successful campaigner transition, I know, to where the
campaigner is no longer reallycampaigning?

Speaker 1 (51:15):
I don't, you know, I can't.
I mean I can't think ofanything right off the top of my
head, I do.
I mean there are situationswhere companies are sold and the
campaigner remains on.
You know, you could take likeBuell at Harley-Davidson, and he
was there for a long time, buteventually it goes sour.
Yeah, it just drifts away.
Yeah, it's like they get pissedoff at the way the operators or

(51:39):
the new operators are doingthings and the operators really
don't appreciate them and resentthem, and so things go awry,
you know.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Well, you know, the funny thing is, is there's.
You know, if I really look at acompany you know any small or
big company it's like how manycampaigners are there really in
the company?
There's usually not very many.
There's not very many.
There's a lot of, mostlyoperators.
Yes, there are, because youknow, but is that the job of the
campaigner?

Speaker 1 (52:13):
They create the situation where the operators
can operate.
They do and the need foroperations.
Yeah, the need.
That's a great way to look atit.
I love that.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
If I did my job well as a campaigner.
I'm growing business, and thenthere's more execution that
needs to be done.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
You know, I think maybe part of it is like if the
campaigner and the operatorquote partners, come together
early in the evolution of thebusiness and grow together,
there's probably a greaterlikelihood of respect between
the two parties.
Absolutely.
Then if the campaigner has beenout here and then suddenly

(52:52):
there's a new operator 20 yearslater who comes into the program
, that operator is notnecessarily going to appreciate
that that campaigner.
The campaigner may notnecessarily appreciate that
operator and think I got us usthis far.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, because I can tell you.
Well, I can tell you, with myco-founder, Alex and JS both
they did know, they witnessed myvalue Right as a campaigner.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
Yeah, you start out with nothing and then you got
something.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
You got something right, yeah, right, they just
know intuitively that there'scontribution there.
Now could they say specificallyI mean, yeah, they could point
out a couple of things that Iwas just good at or whatever and
contributing, but I think itwas more intuition or experience

(53:50):
that they believed the value,whereas on the flip side, coming
in as a bigger company andyou've got operators and they
look at the campaigner, theydon't have those subconscious,
experiential, intuitiveunderstanding of the value of

(54:10):
that.
And it's okay, like I'm not,I'm not twisting about that, but
I mean it's just a reality.
I mean I just had a counselingsession with you right now
trying to understand this, but Imean I've been through it.
Yeah, if you look at anybusiness, I know, like you know
what I'm saying, like just thatunderstanding.
And I think that, even back toyour earlier point, like I do

(54:32):
believe that my previouspartners, like they did probably
have a point where I rememberyou know, specifically with Alex
this is really early on.
You know, like where Alex isprobably like wondering what the
hell it is that I'm actuallydoing and I do when, when he's
really like it's obvious he's inthe back room.

(54:54):
He is making it like workingand doing all kinds of shit.
Yes, and I'm gone for hours, Iknow, eating lunches and having
coffees and, yeah, you know,going to strange meetings of
where we like, like, like thegenesis of a meeting, like
whenever you're, you're in aroom and no one in the meeting
knows why you're in the room.

(55:15):
But here you are, somehow yougot in the room and it's like
what is it that you do again?
Yeah, and then the campaignerslike, oh shit, I do all kinds.
This is my moment.
Yeah, exactly To express how weprovide value as a business
partner with you.
But that first meeting is likewhy the hell are you going there
?
Why would you spend three hourson the road to drive this far

(55:38):
or to do these things?
And there's expenses associatedwith there's nothing.
I'm telling you, it's so true,yeah, but you're still at me.
I'm telling you, bro, like thisis the meaning.
And then you have it nothingdevelops.
This is the meaning.
And then you have it Nothingdevelops.
This is the.
You know, it's just thiscontinuous.
And so there's gotta be like atsome point.
I remember kind of Alex, I kindof going okay, you know what
I'm, I'm in this anyway.

(55:59):
Right, I'm stuck here with thisjackass.
Yeah, I'm talking about me.
Yeah, just let his goofy buttgo do what he does, Right I?

Speaker 1 (56:08):
just have to have a little watch the show.
Yeah, sorry, alex, but I thinkyour campaigner operator
framework is very good to keepin mind.
When somebody's talking aboutbringing on a business partner,
whether they're external to theorganization or they're internal
currently and they're going tobecome a, or they're internal
currently and they're going tobecome a business partner, it's

(56:32):
a good, good way to be thinkingabout it.
Okay, yeah, don't bring anothercampaigner in and expect things
to necessarily.
I mean, I'm not going to sayyou don't, you know, at some
point you need anothercampaigner.
If you're going to transitionthere, better be somebody out
there who can be the campaigner.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
Well, that's your sales your top salesperson,
exactly, or your market BD?
You know business development.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
I mean like you've got to have additional
campaigners, having done aninternal transition where I'm
completely dependent on theirability to succeed as a company.
Going forward to get paid yeah,having somebody to be a
campaigner yeah, but it that wasvery critical to me.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
Yeah yeah, I think one thing on my end back that
experience was I need tomultiply myself, yeah, or
multiply the campaigning right,because you can do so much more.
If you can multiply that, yeah,but I think you're right like
that, that, that originalpartnership, like if you could

(57:34):
take the advice of and I thinkwhat we're really wrapping up
here is, if you are starting abusiness and for you have a
business or you have a businessright that started, can you
genuinely stop and look at whoboth of you are, yeah, and say
and identify one as thecampaigner and the other one as

(57:54):
the operator, and you bothrespect that space, you both
don't interfere with thatparticular, those pillars.
Yes, right, yes.
Then you would save yourself ashit ton of potential
threatening Angst and on bothsides.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
No, it's so true.
Well, this is.
I think this campaigneroperator framework is one that
it's really good, and I'm gladwe we had this discussion.
You've never clearlyarticulated that before.
I've heard you talk aboutcampaigners, yeah, and what's a
campaign in your mind, but Ithink it's a great way to look

(58:32):
at it and it's a great frameworkfor people to have when they
look at either their existingpartners or new potential
partners.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
Real quick, yeah.
Like I've discovered the termcampaigner through a personality
test that I took with my wife afew years ago.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
It said, you were a campaigner.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
I filled out all these questions and I came back
as a campaigner.
I'm like yeah, I guess.
Yeah, because I never reallyidentified as a salesperson or a
marketing person.
It didn't complete me in mythought.
But the campaigner's like yeah,I guess I'm always talking some
smack.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
I'm always, you know, dropping forward on something
that seems you know 40 years agoI had to take this personality
group of personality tests forthis company I worked in where
everybody who was on theownership track had to take them
and I I was.
Whatever their damn test was, Idon't remember.
I mean, my first wife was apsychologist, so I vicariously

(59:33):
got my terminal degree inpsychology.
But whatever this test was,they came back all these tests
and they summarized it and theysaid I was an explorer.
I was like the people on thefrontier out there.
Okay, they said I was probablynot going to last in the job,
I'd get impatient.
It was true.

(59:54):
Yeah, I was there three years.
It was absolutely true.
Yeah, but explore.
So that was another way to lookat it.
You know, you got thecampaigner, you got the explorer
.
The explorer is the one that'son it, the pioneer man.
They're out on the front endthere, frontiersman.
You don't know, you might getattacked at any minute.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
But you can't wait to see what's around the next
corner.
Yeah, exactly, I think if youhave a partnership or you're
starting one, it might be a goodidea to take a personality test
.
There's Neural Color.
It's a really good one, but youcan identify what those are and
then I think that helps to makethe conversation and the

(01:00:37):
objective yeah, less threateningor less judgmental in a way
look at it as a scienceexperience.
yeah, yeah, let's take thesepersonality tests, see where we
land and then understand eachother and be like, oh okay, well
then you clearly are thatperson, so you own that, yeah,
and respect that territory.
Let's take these personalitytests, see where we land and
then understand each other andbe like, oh okay, well then you
clearly are that person, so youown that, yeah, and respect that
territory.
And I think it could be helpful, you know just this whole

(01:00:57):
campaigner versus operator thing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
It's really getting me thinking right now about the
companies that I see, that Ifeel good about, their success
potential and those who arestruggling.
One of the companies I workwith right now has got a great
campaigner, but it's got nooperator.
Another company I work with hasa campaigner, has an operator.
Okay, got a lot of problems,but I feel like it's on the

(01:01:23):
right track.
Yeah, okay, I feel like, inspite of all those problems,
they're going to be overcome.
The other one's actually gotmore resources.
That's just a campaignerwithout an operator, but it's it
.
It.
It's future is murkier in a way.
When it it, you know,ostensibly you'd be like what do
you mean?
It's murkier.
It's got all these resourcesfinancially, you know, and it's

(01:01:47):
not threatened in any way.
You know what I mean.
And yet there I am looking atthe other one thinking you know
what they got the necessarypeople, that the combination of
those things is going to servethem well.
Yeah, um, so it's a really goodframework.
Thank you for introducing us tothat today, eric.
Oh, thanks, mark.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
I'm dead serious.
No, this is good.
I mean like I love this.
That's why I love this show.
Yeah, I feel like that wecounsel each other.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Yep, well, we're running out of time.
We are.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
I don't know about you, but I got a lot to do today
.
Yeah, let's go.
I got to get some stuff done.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
All right, everybody.
Well, until next week.
This has been yet one moreepisode of Big Talk about Small
Business.
We're here for you.
Reach out to us, get on ourwebsite.
If there's anything you want usto talk about, we're glad to do

(01:02:49):
it.
Send it, baby.
If you want to sponsor thisshow, we'd love to hear from you
.
Send that money, baby.
And if you have any suggestionsfor guests which we are very
picky about, by the way we'renot looking for people that are
Looking to build a business?

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Yeah, we want people that want to help others do what
you've already done yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
Right, or that you are doing Right.
So don't count on any one-manconsultants or coaches out there
, right?
That's not what we're lookingfor.
We want to talk to peoplewho've done it, people who've
overcome problems, people whohave survived catastrophe yeah,
people who've taken over familybusinesses and done better than
their parents or predecessorsRight, those are the stories

(01:03:35):
we're looking for.
We like success stories.
Yeah, okay.
We like, yeah, everybody's gotproblems, but victories, man.
We want to see that.
Yes, those who overcame theobstacles, not just those who
encountered obstacles andcratered or are starting to
encounter one.

(01:03:55):
Yeah, let's see people that gotthrough the problem.
That's it, anyway.
We're glad to have you all aslisteners and greatly appreciate
your support of our show.
Absolutely, take care.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk
about Small Business.
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(01:04:41):
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