Ep. 75 - Why Small Businesses Fail at Marketing (And How to Fix It)

Can marketing be the lifeline your small business needs to thrive, even when you're flying under the radar of giant corporations? This week, Jeremy LaDuke from Epic 9 joins us to share his journey in revolutionizing marketing strategies for businesses earning between $5 million and $50 million annually. With his hands-on experience, Jeremy shines a light on the importance of calculated risk-taking and creative branding, sharing stories of success and challenges faced by businesses that don't have the luxury of in-house marketing teams. From the significance of strategic planning to the power of bold marketing choices, Jeremy offers a treasure trove of insights for those ready to embrace change and innovate.

Dare to defy traditional marketing norms? We unpack the potential of audacious strategies and the pitfalls of playing it safe—essential listening for startups and innovation-driven companies. We discuss how embracing unique branding, like that of Liquid Death and Red Bull, can set a business apart in a crowded market. By pushing boundaries and understanding consumer psychology, small businesses can forge deeper connections with their audiences. We also delve into the art of identifying and targeting the most profitable customer segments, a crucial step for anyone looking to sharpen their marketing edge without alienating potential clients.

Struggling to manage a marketing budget on a shoestring? Discover the Climb Club initiative—a genius solution for businesses under the million-dollar mark that offers valuable resources and community support for just $58 a month. With Jeremy's guidance, we explore how this initiative empowers small business owners to DIY their marketing while maximizing their budget's impact. We emphasize the importance of having a strategic marketing framework and the value of shared learning in a collaborative environment. Whether you're looking to evolve and adapt your strategies or find the right audience fit, this episode offers the tools and insights needed to navigate the marketing landscape with confidence.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
all right, everybody.
Uh, we're back again withanother episode of big talk
about that small business andwe've got a guest with us today.
Um, he's virtual and we havejeremy leduc from merrillville.

(00:22):
I gotta say that rightMerrillville.
We say that here too we sayFayetteville, when they say
Fayetteville.

Speaker 4 (00:33):
Yeah, we know, you're not from around these parts.
You're not from around here,are you so?

Speaker 1 (00:40):
anyway, we've been trying to get together with
Jeremy for God knows how long.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
You know what, jeremy ?
It was you that, when we hadyou scheduled back last summer
and then you were part of thescheme of my celebration party
for Vice Spider.
That's right.
Yeah, I forgot about that.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, jeremy, yeah, I got an email saying, hey, we're
going to cancel, but pretendlike it's still going.
Yes, an email saying, hey, wegot it, we're going to cancel,
but pretend like it's stillgoing.
And or or no, no, no, no, mark,you said.
You said figure out a reasonwhy you have to cancel because
we've got to do this thisbirthday party, so or or
retirement party or something.

Speaker 4 (01:17):
Yeah, that's what Mark called it on LinkedIn.
Eric's retirement party, yeah,and I'm like I'm the last thing
from being retired.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
Man, well, you did from that business, that's true,
that's true.
So at least you went out ofthere with a bag full of money,
so I guess that's good.
But uh, that's what he says.
But but anyway, um, no it.
Uh, we appreciate that.
Jeremy, I forgot about that.

Speaker 4 (01:38):
You were so fun, yeah yeah, thanks for doing that man
.
He really took one for the teamthere and was actually
surprised.
I had no idea what was going on.
He did a beautiful job though.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
He's always so gracious and gives credit to
other people for his success.
Yeah, well, it's true, eric isone of the loveliest people
you'd ever meet.
Jeremy, he really is a good guy.
Thanks, mark, got that recorded.
Yeah, we're here, though.
Thanks, mark, got that recorded.
Yeah, we're here, though.
We want to talk to Jeremy.
Jeremy is a wide-rangingmarketing expert.

Speaker 4 (02:12):
Yeah, I was looking at his profile and stuff again
here recently and I'm like man,this guy has been marketing his
face off for years.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, and when I saw he had worked on a product with
Ninja in the name, I thought, ohmy God, eric's going gonna have
a lot in common with this guy,because eric had a product
called skew ninja.
Yeah, yeah, skew ninja, oh okay, oh yeah yeah, that's fun yeah,
that's fun so, so I'm justgonna say tell us a little bit
about yourself, give it, giveour audience a little rundown on

(02:38):
jeremy ledoux yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
so I guess the the the Reader's Digest version.
Um, then, uh, started mycompany, Epic 9, uh, 11 years
ago, been doing that Um, youknow, you know how it is 80, 80
hours a week, uh, for the lastlast 11 years, Um, which I'm
super excited to talk about thislast year as well.
But really got my start wayback when in high school days

(03:13):
doing graphic design, web design, and kind of did it on the side
for over a decade and thendecided to launch out and give
it a go as an entrepreneur.
So here we are.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
So tell us about some of the companies that you work
with and some of the servicesthat your company provides.

Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, so Epic 9 Proper, we work with companies
that are in that $5 million to$50 million a year range.
It's about that time when theyhave a decent budget for their
marketing and advertising.
But they haven't grown to thepoint when they have a decent
budget for their marketing andadvertising but they haven't
grown to the point where theyhave a whole in-house team doing
things.
But we do everything frombranding and strategy and just
creative strategy figuring outad campaigns and whatnot to

(03:59):
implementing that strategy.
So websites, video production,media buys all of the things
that go into marketing.
So if it smells like or lookslike or sounds like marketing,
we do it and what's your primaryrole there now?

Speaker 4 (04:15):
Are you kind of more on the strategic side, meeting
with clients, building out plansand proposals and such yes,
yeah, that's kind's my favoritepart to do.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
I wear several other little hats, but the the main
role, main function I have forthe business is the the creative
strategy.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
So you find that there are companies with five to
50 million in revenue whoactually have marketing and
advertising budgets.
That's definitely somethingthat we observe in so many small
, privately held companies isthat they just don't believe in
and and invest in marketing likethey should.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
It's fascinating, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (05:02):
It's like the greatest single deficiency, if
there was one, is that.

Speaker 4 (05:08):
Why do you think that's the case with your
experience?
I mean, when you talk with, Imean, these companies and
they're like you know well, doyou have a budget, I mean, and I
think that there's kind of twobudgets in this right.
You have a marketing budgetwhich is just kind of your
resources and just the plans ofsupport execution team, kind of
your resources, and just theplans of support execution team.
Then you have the ad budgetwhich is just paying for media

(05:28):
outside, you know, to push yourproduct and brand.
But I mean a lot of times, likewhen you approach them, do they
have one or the other, or is itneither sometimes, or what's
the kind of it's all over theboard.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
So what we come across a lot is you ask what the
budget is.
They have no idea, right, it'snot necessarily a line item in
their budget that they stick to.
Precisely A lot of the timesthey're spending money on
marketing things but they're notnecessarily putting it in the
marketing budget.
It's just kind of all over theboard.
Then, and then you've got folksthat come to us and they're

(06:03):
they're very, you know, they'redown to the, down to the uh, you
know, last cent, they've got itmapped out, um, and so it's.
It really is across the board,um, but I would say, more often
than than not, what we deal withis folks who come in and and
they're they're not really surewhat their goals for their
marketing are or should be.

(06:23):
And so that's the.
That's the first step we takewith them is figuring out what's
that measurable goal that we'reshooting for.
So at the end of the day, youknow, after we've gone, you know
, six months, 12 months, we cansay marketing worked or
marketing didn't, and that'swhere we start and then we build
out all right, to get there,what sort of investment do you
need?
What sort of uh strategy do youneed?

Speaker 4 (06:46):
you know, I mean, I think this, this whole, I mean
we could probably spend hours onthe marketing budget discussion
, because but I think that maybethe reader or the listeners
would love to hear a little bitmore about this, because this is
like a demystification of theunknown.
It's like what is yourmarketing budget?
You know it.
So hard to calculate and Ithink that there's different
steps and stages.
Right, and Jeremy, you couldprobably fill in on this.

(07:08):
But, to your point, you havesomebody that doesn't have
anything.
They don't know what they'redoing, they don't really
practice marketing, they don'thave it on staff.
They're like hey, jeremy, Idon't do any marketing, I got
this business going.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
No, wait a minute, we don't believe in that.
We believe that word of mouth,yes, is what?
Um word of mouth's the bestadvertising yeah, oh yeah, of
course, of course.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
Word of mouth is the only way businesses have ever
grown, ever that's right.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
Yeah, it's the way, and you don't do anything to
push the word of mouth.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, they have, they don't worry about it they're in
the first place and doingbusiness with you, so they can
give you word of right, yeah,right, but it's magic really
it's.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
It is just magic, it just falls out of the sky.
You know which?
I think that if you're startinga business, you know, you have
to know that you have to investin marketing.
You don't have, I don't thinkthat one should even think about
an roi when they're starting toinvest in marketing.
You, you know, like what?

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, not everything is going to give you a tangible
direct result that you can tieto a specific marketing effort.
Unfortunately, that's the way alot of people think it's going
to be today.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yeah, because they hear big companies talking about
ROI but they don't think aboutthose.
Big companies have a huge staffor big agency and also.

Speaker 3 (08:26):
Also, I'd say in the last like 10, 10 years or so we
have the marketing industry as awhole has focused really hard
on this, uh, performancemarketing, the roi, all the
acronyms, right, the cpcs, therois, all the things and we've
failed to to uh or was forgottenabout.
Um, there's a lot of intangiblereturn that you get just from

(08:49):
good branding good, goodawareness that you're never
going to be able to put a dollarsign on that.
But they found that when you doyour branding and your your
awareness really well, it that'show brands grow, that's that's
that what they do, they don'tgrow from Google ads.
I mean, there's going to besomebody out there that gets mad
and says I grew my businessfrom zero to a million dollars

(09:12):
on Google.
There are exceptions, but forthe vast majority of businesses
you grow your brand long-termwith great branding and
awareness.
If you don't have some sort ofbudget going towards that, then
you are shooting yourself in thefoot.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, I mean one thing is inquiries.
The other is what's your closerate and the familiarity and the
brand has such an impact onthat, and what kind of pricing
can you charge for whatever itis you're selling?
Again, a good brand reducesrisk on the part of the customer
and it's it's so interrelated.

(09:51):
Back on on on, you know,startups and growth companies,
though One thing I always try toget my students to understand
is, in clients, if they want togrow at a faster rate than the
industry that they're part of,what makes them think that's
going to happen if they don'tspend more money than the

(10:11):
industry.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
It's like yeah, Well, there's.
So here's.
Here's what we've run into,especially especially with
businesses, small businessesthat are starting up that are, I
would say, that are under thatmillion dollar a year revenue
mark.
Um, they are good at whateverthey do, right, they're good at
whatever service or product theyoffer.
They're good at that.
And so they look out at the atthe world, because the marketing

(10:35):
is not their, their forte, it'snot what they're they're doing.
Sure, they look out the worldand say, okay, what's this other
person down the road?
How are are they?
How are they positioningthemselves?
How are they marketingthemselves?
And they said, oh, it's Joe's.
You know Joe's plumbing.
Well, I'll call mine.
You know Mark's plumbing.
Um, and because it it feelssafe, yeah and so, and so they

(10:57):
they're.
I'd say the biggest risk inmarketing is playing it safe.
Um, you're, you're.
You're losing out onopportunity, You're losing out
on just the ability to bememorable by playing it safe.
Again, we're over here in thefoothills of the Smoky Mountains
.
There are probably a list of athousand different businesses
that start with Smoky Mountainsand they typically have a logo

(11:24):
with a mountain range right, andevery time I see it I'm like
y'all, it's not memorable,You're just blending into the
noise.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
Here everything is a pig, a hog or a Razorback or
Ozark yeah, occasionally Ozark.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Yeah, that's the danger of being around something
iconic, I think yeah exactly,and plus pigs don't necessarily
have a positive image.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, that's the danger of being around something
iconic, I think.
Yeah, exactly, and plus pigsdon't necessarily have a
positive image.
No, they don't, you know.
I mean, think about it, it'strue.
But yeah, that's a good point.

Speaker 4 (11:54):
I love the statement playing it safe, because here's
one thing that I go irate aboutright, and it happens even here.
You know, as a startup companythat's not known in the market,
we're actually an innovationcompany too.
There's not anybody around usthat's doing what we're doing.
So we're trying to inspire andeducate the for a new industry

(12:15):
in a way, for the productionhere.
But when we do a marketingcampaign, when people are too
safe, they're like that didn'treally have any benefit, that
didn't really do anything forthe company.
That effort, and I'm like aslike, there is no such thing as
a zero return marketing effort,ever.
It cannot happen.
And there's no such thing as azero return meeting.

(12:37):
It does not exist.
And I think that that pessimismthat you know, that safety
people are looking for, it'slike how do I?
It's?
It's like how do I take athousand dollars, invest in the
market and, and you know, have apositive return on everything
that happens?
You, just like you said, youhave to take some risk, but you
got to know that if you throwout a direct mail piece to 5 000

(12:58):
people and get zero returnleads on it, it doesn't mean
that it did not have any impact.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah, unless it never left the mail house right yeah
that's that's the one thingthat's funny you say that, hey,
yeah, and even then, even thenthere's a postal worker that's
seeing that, that branding, andit's good point.

Speaker 4 (13:16):
There's somebody that looked at 5 000 mail pieces and
go I'm not sending, but theyknow, but you know.
I mean like that is one thingthat I've checked into is like
if something doesn't work, likeyou look at the mechanics of the
effort and did something breakdown and it literally didn't get
in the postbox, you know, yeah,so, but anyway, I really
appreciate that's and that'swhat yeah, and the brand, the

(13:40):
brand awareness stuff, the stuffthat you, that you don't really
have an ability to measure ahundred percent we always tell
people, like don't, the phone'snot going to ring tomorrow off
of this?

Speaker 3 (13:48):
Right, you need a billboard.
Right, billboards are good, butnobody's going to call you
because they saw that billboard,but it it.
It's that nudge, right it's.
You're just constantly nudgingpeople towards that decision and
if you don't have all thosepieces in place, then you're
going to nudge less efficiently.
It's so true.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
Here.
I always like to bring thestory up and forgive me, eric,
for saying it again, but I thinkit's so critical to our
listeners.
Sam's Furniture is the bestexample of that.
They were just anotherfurniture store selling the same
stuff that every furniturestore in the nation sells.
You know sofas with a secret,where they've got a compartment

(14:30):
to throw your chips and put youryour cup in.
You know um mattresses, boxstrings, thomasville.
You know sort of perfectsleeper, I mean, you know
whatever the brand, the samestuff.
And here they are in this stripmall, in this in Springdale,
arkansas, in the sort of backlocation, and they just promoted

(14:52):
and promoted and promoted.
They were on billboards, theywere on TV, they were on radio.
You go to the airport and theelevator that you get on it's
got a sam's furniture.
Uh, you know, burned into thedoors and so.
But the point of all that isokay.
So my ex-wife calls me up oneday and she says hey, brooke,

(15:15):
her friend just bought a newhouse.
She's got five bedrooms and sheneeds to buy all new mattresses
and box springs for it and sheneeds them by tomorrow.
Who should we call?
And I'm like get it at sam's.
She goes, but she needs ittomorrow.
I said same day delivery.
Yeah, and it just like comesout of my you know it's the

(15:35):
familiarity.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
Familiarity breeds trust.
It breeds credibility.
It's what you, it's what you,and it's just a matter of so
here's.
Here's my take on that, though.
Um, they could have probablygrown faster and better if their
branding had been more distinct, right, it's not.
There's nothing more boringthan sam's furniture, right,
like that's what.
That's why they had to use somany billboards.
That's why they had to havetheir logo printed everywhere,

(16:00):
because it's inefficient.
But when you have creativebranding and good ideas and
ideas that make an emotionalconnection whether it's humor or
just boldness or whatever whenyou have those ideas that
connect with people, yourmarketing is a lot more
efficient.
Right?
Do you all have Buc-ee's whereyou're at?
No, but we know what.
Buc-ee's is, but you know whatit is yeah, it's, it's that,

(16:25):
it's that idea, right.
So they, they spend a ton onbillboards.
Their social media is crap,right, their social media is
garbage.
They don't have a good socialmedia presence at all.
But they, they found thisunique branding and niche type
of thing and they just ran withit really hard.
And so now, every time, everytime you go on a road trip,
everything you think where am Igoing to stop and get snacks and

(16:45):
use the restroom?

Speaker 1 (16:47):
you know over here, yeah, yeah, bucky's has only
been around here for a couple ofyears.
Beaver nuggets, that's whatthey have.
Yeah, yes, that's exactly butyou know you're right about that
.
I mean, I always wanted to namea business that best furniture
store or something like so.
Then every time anybody talksabout it, they talk about it in
a positive light.

(17:08):
Where are you going?

Speaker 4 (17:09):
I'm going to that new furniture, that best furniture
store, or like my donut companythat I want to start.
Oh no, we were just talkingabout that this morning.
I have a donut company that Iwanted to start.
Well, I can't say it, can I,because it'll let the cat out.
It's called Deez Donuts, deezDonuts.

Speaker 3 (17:30):
Yes, yes, I love it.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
I'm glad you brought that up, because not that he
brought up, deez.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
Donuts.
Think about it.
You're going, you're going to atown and and you've never,
you've never been there beforeand you run a, are you going to
go to, you know, the, thefrosted donut.
Are you going to go to thesedonuts?
You're going to say, oh, that'skind of fun, I'm going to go
there, I'm going to, just to getthe t-shirt right?

Speaker 4 (18:04):
Yeah, here's the thing that I found I got the dot
com.
I've had the dot com for 15years, literally 15 years.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
You wouldn't have that I tell you, eric, is
something else.
But why do?
While we're talking about thesenames, why do companies today
so many of them, especiallythese ones started by the young
folk come up with these namesthat have no relationship to
what they do Like?
There was an electric vehiclecompany here that just went out

(18:30):
of business called Canoo spelledC-A-N-O-O.
Where do they come up with this?

Speaker 3 (18:40):
There are dumb risks, right.
You should be, risky but youdon't need to be dumb, risky.

Speaker 4 (18:49):
You get too outside the box, you're trying to be too
distinguishable in a way, right, and then you've got to compete
with your own brand to explainwhat you do.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
I always love it when companies I came out of the
architecture and engineeringindustry and they're
professional service providersthey're not great marketers,
most of them Some of them thatare do really, really well, but
I always like it when it'd belike ABC and Associates.
And then they have thisnewsletter they send out called
Infrastructure World.

(19:22):
I'm like what brand are youtrying to promote here, abc and
Associates or InfrastructureWorld?
I never understood that.
It's like a total.
Let's try to sell two thingsnow that are unrelated.
You know, but people seem to dostuff like that all the time,
don't they?

Speaker 3 (19:44):
You know, but people seem to do stuff like that all
the time, don't they?
Yeah, they, they do, uh, theydo, and, and part of it, I, I'm
going to go, I'm going to pullback to branding.
When you have a weak brand,it's every marketing decision
you make is kind of a hurdle,right, um, because you're having
to rethink like, how do, how dowe, you know, market this the
best, but we'll have a strongbrand.
All those, a lot of thosedecisions that you spend a lot,

(20:05):
you waste a lot of time on withthose, with those decisions, a
lot of those things are kind ofdone for you, right?
We know our voice is going tobe this.
We know our, our imagery isgoing to be this Our, yeah, our
name, the theme.
We, we are, uh, our name, thetheme.
Our full title is Epic NineMarketing Outfitters.
We are very camping-oriented.
The book's called Climb.

(20:25):
We've got Climb Club.
So anytime we do a marketingpiece, we know how we're going
to lay it out right, so we don'thave to waste a lot of time
figuring out all right, whatcolor do we use, or what font do
we use, or what style is.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
It's just like a company that has no strategy.
Then every single decision isso difficult to make it's got to
be modified, whereas if you'vegot overarching strategy, you
know go with that Right.
Let's talk about your climbclub, though Tell us a little
bit about what that is, jeremy.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
So I'll pull us back around to budgets and I think
that's a good way to tie it in.
So Climb Club is built forthose businesses that are under
that million dollar a yearrevenue mark, and it's going to
vary for different businesses,but when you're under that mark,
typically what we've seen is itdoesn't make sense to go to an

(21:22):
agency to pay them to do thework for you.
It doesn't make sense to evenhire a freelancer necessarily
because you need to use everydollar that you have in.
Whatever marketing budget youhave goes towards something,
whether it's direct mail or adsor whatever Because when you

(21:45):
come to an agency or when you goto a freelancer, the minute you
take them $1,000, $500 of that,that's going to their pocket,
right.
And so you need to be able totake that money and make it as
efficient as possible so thatyou can get over that mark.
And what we encourage people todo is get to about that three
thousand dollar a month, uh,budget.
Um, that's when it startsmaking sense to have those

(22:06):
conversations of can someonemanage my ads for me?
Can someone, uh, do my socialmedia for me?
That sort of thing?
Um, because what we've seen ispeople there are people out
there that, for you know, 500bucks a month, they'll they'll
manage your, your social media,and it looks like you pay them
500 bucks a month, they'llthey'll manage your, your social
media and it looks like you paythem 500 bucks a month.
Right, it's the.
It's the same cookie cutterposts on social media.

(22:26):
There's nothing engaging in it.
Um, there are some marketingcosts that you need to plan for
on the front end that you needto invest in, no matter what
your branding, your website,those sorts of things but for
the most part, when you're underthat million dollar a year
revenue mark, you need to.
You need to be DIYing it asefficiently as you can.
So we created Climb Club as ait's a, it's a bank of resources

(22:50):
for folks to get in there tolearn some marketing
fundamentals to.
They have a how to instructionson how to set up their, their
Google analytics, how to measurethings, how to how to do their
email marketing all of the toolsthat they need to really do
what they need to do on theirown, and that's a great value.

(23:12):
We're going to keep on adding tothat, but the value that I
really think that people get themost out of is the community.
So we have a weekly mastermindwhere small business owners can
come together and say, hey, thisis, this is where I'm at, this
is what I'm doing, and they canget and give advice to each
other.
Do you charge for that?
Yeah, yeah, so it's.

(23:34):
It's a 58 bucks a month, so itshould.
It should, no matter whatbudget you have.
Cancel your Netflix account andsign up if you're strapped.
That looks like it's only $17.
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
I think we pay more than that for it you know, what
I mean.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
You get the idea.

Speaker 4 (23:55):
But I mean it makes a lot of sense because what
you're doing is you're kind ofgrouping.
It's like a learningenvironment, right, learning,
networking, which are reallyimportant.
If you're diy in marketingright, especially if you're
starting a business, you haveproduct fit, you know, you kind
of got this aspiration but youdon't like we're talking about,
you just don't know marketing.
A lot of times when peopledon't know something, they avoid

(24:18):
it, right, because they don'twant to be incompetent in it.
But I like this idea for you to.
You're basically giving a placefor people to come and learn
with other people that arelearning, and then they can help
each other grow on that.
That's a good idea, man.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, eric had a marketing company, by the way,
so just so you know, and morethan once, and he converted it
into a software company, whichwas an amazing transformation.
But so, yeah, he understandswhere you're coming from on this
.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
Yeah, you know, I mean I think that and I like the
idea of how you've kind ofpackaged this into where, like
these people that are a milliondollars and less in revenue,
right, and so you know they'rereally scrapping.
And I appreciate the idea tooof what you're saying is, you
know, if you do hire afreelancer, they will suck that
money up.
Not that there's anything wrongwith that, but I mean it's just

(25:10):
the reality.
They have to get paid, they'rein business, it goes to their
time, but you don't know whatyou're getting with a freelancer
.

Speaker 3 (25:26):
You know I've worked with a lot of freelancers in the
marketing side.
Yeah, they're not very good.
There are some gyms out there,yeah, well, no, I'd say the fact
.
So the nature of our businessright now is, if you have a
computer or if you have a cameraor a drone, you're a marketer
right, so you can throw a rockanywhere you go and hit probably
10 of us, but there's nolicensing right, there's no

(25:49):
governing body that's sayingyou're a good marketer, you're a
bad one, and so it's kind of awild wild west scenario.
So that's what we've seen islike every once in a while I'd
say one in 20, you'll getsomebody that's just a gem right
.
They are the diamond in therough.
They do great work, it getsgood results, um, but the vast
majority, I think, are they'rejust kind of not great, and so

(26:13):
what happens to your smallbusinesses.

Speaker 4 (26:15):
Small businesses waste a lot of money on them you
and I can go on and on aboutthis combo because we both get
it.
But, like, the thing that withmarketing is is I don't, people
don't realize how vast thisindustry is.
Like it is, I mean I don'treally know.
Like, if I think of anotherdivision or department, like
even in tech, I mean maybe maybedevelopment technology has

(26:37):
gotten there, you know, with allai and stuff coming in.
But when you say marketing,like to find a marketing
professional, like there's somany different levels because
you can't be a master at all,you know you have to be a jack
of all trades, is kind of what.
Jeremy is your strategist,right, he knows enough about all

(26:57):
these pieces to put togetherthe puzzle.
And that's like if I was tryingto freelance something out and
I came to you, you cost me a lotand I mean you could build me a
plan, you know, but that'sgoing to take time, it's going
to take investment, money.
I'm not going to see a returnfor 90 days because you're
trying to build a strategy,right, you know.
And I mean, and then, and thenI can tell you you, if I was

(27:19):
under a million dollars, likeyou're talking about, and I
hired you, I'd be frustrated atday 45 because I'm like where's
the return?
You know, I don't have enoughcapital to keep paying for that.
So you're not the person toturn to necessarily Like I mean
and I'm not trying to, you know,no, you're exactly right.
But the thing is is like do youneed a designer?

(27:40):
Do you need a brand designer?
Do you need a logo designer,which is different than a brand
designer?
And then you have an artistthat's not just a logo designer,
but they're actually anillustrator, and do you really
even need all that?
I mean, you know what I'msaying it's like.
And then you got your PPC, yourSEO, you got your writing.

(28:00):
I mean, there's contentmarketing, there's social.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
I mean, it's just direct mail experts, yeah,
experts in Shopify, trade showmarketers, right I mean, which
is a whole other level.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
Real, and here's what happens is you go to someone
that's good at one thing right,so you might go to someone
that's really good at web design, design and then you ask them
about this other thing and youknow what they're going to tell
you.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Hell yeah, I can do that.
Well, that's, that's the samething I always tell I always
tell my students it's the samething with attorneys, you know
they'll all say, yeah, they cando that, but that doesn't mean
they're the best divorceattorney or the best one to
paper up your m&a deal or thebest one to look at your
franchise operating agreement.
I mean, those are allspecialties they are.
But back on marketing, thoughas a subject matter.

(28:49):
I think you know again, mostsmall business owners think
marketing is only promotion.
You know, when you look at thefour Ps in the marketing mix, I
think it's just such a greatthing when it's product price
promotion and Physicaldistribution.
It really touches everything.
It's so it is strategic.

(29:13):
It should happen at the toplevel, where you really decide
like what business are we in?
What do we sell?
Those are marketing.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yes, I would say if you're, if you're, if you're a
small startup, have them bring amarketing person in to talk
about your product, right?
Yes, if you're a largerbusiness and you've got a team
of people, make sure yourmarketing person is in product
development, is in the pricingconversations, because they're
the one that know what peopleare going to do.

(29:41):
Right, otherwise, you just getyou got some engineers that are
tinkering around creating thiswidget that may not be sellable
and so but but the marketercould kind of come in, ideally,
right, if they're a goodmarketer they're going to,
they're going to be a littleempathetic and know what will
your consumers actually buy andhow much will they pay and all

(30:03):
of those sort of things.
They'll have a better gauge onthat, because a lot of times
what we deal with is is someonebrings us, you know, a service
or a product and we're like, huh, that's just, it's not great.
And so a lot of what we wind updoing in the strategic
conversations is why don't wetweak this a little bit, why
don't we change this and packageit up a little bit differently?
And, uh, that's fun, um, but alot of times those decisions are

(30:26):
made before they ever get to usyou know one thing that I don't
know if this is in your climbclub or not, but it maybe.

Speaker 4 (30:34):
it is maybe or it should be.
I think marketing is a culturalthing, yes, and it's just like
sales, sales.
All these things have to becultural, but marketing in
particular, which is often not.
Everybody should be a marketer,everybody should be thinking
about that, because if you canmake that into a cultural value

(30:57):
or perspective, Then it guidesyour daily action Exactly,
without a rule and without apolicy and procedure.
That's the point Because,especially in today's time,
every click, everything thatanybody sees, has got to bring
in that prospect.
You know somebody's discoveringyou.

(31:18):
Is it easy to click around?
Did I leave a phone number?
You know some of these missesthat like.
And why can't people see, like,the touch points, the touch
points of how to contact thefreaking company?
Yes, like there's nothing, dude, I spent.
I'm going to fort worth thisweekend, right for my daughter.
She's got a soccer thing goingon there for college and I'm

(31:40):
trying to go to the CowboyColiseum to watch a rodeo.
Sure, I know where it isNorthside.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Fort Worth.

Speaker 4 (31:46):
I had to spend five minutes on their website digging
to find out where the hell thisplace is at, because I already
booked a ticket.
I'm just trying to get anaddress so I know where to go.
Sure, five minutes, it's crazy.
I know it's insane.
On your website, like it shouldbe the most prominent thing
Location I mean you have anevent location Like everybody

(32:12):
wants to know that answer.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
You know it's so true .
Can I shift gears, though, fora minute, Because I totally
agree with what you're saying.

Speaker 4 (32:19):
But here's another one, jeremy, I'm curious you're
the host, so you're the host andyou're the host, obviously
you're not I.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
I want to hear what jeremy has to say about this,
though.
Do you find that a lot of smallbusinesses don't know who their
target customer is, becauseobviously that guides everything
right, like who are we tryingto Like?
Who are we trying to attract?
Who are we trying to sell?
Whatever we sell to Seems likeso many of them are like well,
anybody can buy this.

(32:46):
Okay, no, all right, who's yourfocus?
Who's your primary targetcustomer?
It impacts every decision thatyou make.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
We run into that, a lot of folks that come in and be
like oh my thing is good foreverybody, everybody wants this
or everybody can use it.
And I think part of the problemis they a lot of, a lot of
small businesses, especially onthe local level.
Um, people who aren't.
They didn't really startsomething to like think about
scaling it to a national levelor or, uh, creating a franchise

(33:20):
or do anything like that, butthat there's local businesses Um
it.
What seems to happen is they.
They are good at this thing thatthey're doing, they rush into
it and they they start abusiness because someone told
them it was a good idea.
They rush into it and theystart a business because someone
told them it was a good idea.
But they've never really satback and kind of had these
conversations and really thoughtthrough who makes me the most

(33:41):
money, like, what sort of personis going to be the best
customer for me?
What sort of opportunities am Ileaving on the table by not
going after specific groups ofpeople?
And so that's and those are theconversations we love to have
with folks, as well as helpingthem figure out are there

(34:02):
opportunities you're missing bynot focusing in and being
targeting a certain group.
Now there are other businessesthat, yeah, their product is for
everybody.
Right, you can, anybody can doit, and it's.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
That's hard to market .

Speaker 4 (34:16):
I like ones that have a narrower audience.
Oh yeah, more niche the better,right, and I would say too,
like just because you think atarget audience is your direct
but you need to be exploringothers.
Yeah, exactly, and like makingefforts to speak to them.
What are their needs?
Everybody's needs is different,especially because this happens

(34:41):
to me a lot in my businesses.
I have a target audience.
It's a perfect fit for them.
They should be doing it, theyneed to be doing it.
It's obvious as absolute hell,but guess what?
They don't have the freakingbudget to spend to pay for it.
So you've got to go find adifferent target audience, and
so your goal is is to find theright audience that has the

(35:02):
interest, has the need and thebudget to spend on it, or you'll
be out of business because youcan knock on all the doors in
the world, but you don't haveany money.
You don't have any money, yeah,and don't have any money, yeah,
and it could be seasonal andeven and even for those, those
businesses that do they canappeal to everybody in terms of
your marketing.

Speaker 3 (35:19):
You, you do need to, you do need to be.
You didn't you need to speak toa specific group a lot of the
times and be distinct with them,because if you try to appeal to
everybody, then you're going tobe forgettable to most of them
Exactly.
You've got to be willing tolose some customers in order to

(35:40):
gain some.
I think.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, I always like to think about that when I do
business with any business.
Do they know who their targetcustomer is?
Am I fitting into that?
Do they know who their targetcustomer is?
Am I fitting into that?
And you know, when I think back, like Abercrombie and Fitch,
they did a great job 20 years,20, 25 years ago.
You know, I got older kids andwhenever you went to buy clothes
they wanted to go toAbercrombie.

(36:04):
Today they all want to go toLululemon, as I'm sure you've
seen here.
Oh, yeah, totally With yourdaughters, but back then.
So you go to ever crumpy and Igo to the mall and you go in
there and it's dark, there'smusic playing too loud, the
smell of the cologne I was justgonna say that and I would be

(36:25):
like I hate this freaking place.
Okay, my two teenage daughterswould want to and I'd be like
I'm gonna going to go sitoutside.
Here's my credit card.
Buy what you want, okay, andthen come back.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
And if for that, if it was for that reason only,
just to drive off the parents,that was probably a good
decision when the credit cardslet the kids shop, we make it so
annoying.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
They knew their brand , they knew they were targeting
so effectively, though, and likeyou say, you run off.
Some customers, like grandmas,aren't going to go over there to
buy stuff for their grandkid,but boy, the grandkids are going
to be in there.
I mean, you've got to have thatfocus, it just seems so
critical and they were so niche.

Speaker 4 (37:07):
I mean, it's like they had that specific audience
and that's what they dove into.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
But I'm sure that they had to explore it.
Yeah, you know, that's what Ifind it.
Yeah, that's wasn't theoriginal audience.

Speaker 4 (37:19):
I guarantee it.
That's the thing is like.
If you're an entrepreneur andyou're trying to get a business
off the ground, like you may notbe freaking right, it's okay,
that is so true, and you gottayou gotta pivot, oh please.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Eric knows I hate that term pivot, my ass.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
Okay, sorry, but you do have to adapt, you have to
evolve, you have to move andshake.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
Yeah, you have to adapt and evolve.

Speaker 4 (37:41):
Yes, yes, yes, it's so true, you don't that, hey,
jeremy, so on your climb, uh, onon your club, and that's what
it's called, right Climb club.
So is this just something?
Is this something that anybodyI mean, that's that's Pete can
participate in, I mean, even ifthey're not local to where

(38:01):
you're at?

Speaker 3 (38:03):
Yep, it's, it's all online, so yeah.
Anybody anywhere can, can join,yeah, theclimclubcom.
And yeah, you can sit up there.
We've got a free month trial.
So uh, jump in, uh, uh join usfor a month and and if you
decide it's not for you, thenthen you know no harm, no foul

(38:24):
you know, and I'd like to likeplug it a little bit too,
because I love this idea it's,it's, it's really a genius idea.

Speaker 4 (38:30):
I commend you on it, because if there's one thing in
marketing and you that you canagree with me on, it's like it's
in any ever changing space,like if you are not constantly
learning, you're not relevant.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
Oh my gosh, yeah what you did yesterday.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
Yeah, I can't think of another industry where it's
this fast paced.
The change is just constant.
It's a little exhausting, butthat's the nature of it.
It's like when you're in thatsmall startup, local business
arena, you're kind of in this noman's land of marketing where

(39:09):
you need to market or you'regoing to die, of marketing where
you need to market, or you'regoing to die, or and you don't
have a budget to market.
So it's like what do you do?
And that's, I think that's abig part of why, you know, 80%
of small businesses fail beforethey get to the year five.
It's this is one of thoseelements, right, this core
element.
You know you got your, you gotyour marketing, you got your

(39:30):
finances and your and your legalstuff, um, but they, they.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
I'd say, more often than not, marketing is probably
the, the crux of it, because ifyou don't have business coming
in, it makes all the otherissues, uh, worse and I'd say,
if you're not in an environmentwhere you're constantly evolving
and learning and changing anddrilling down, trying to to find
this, and then, by the way,your whole target audience could
change too.

(39:56):
It's so true you know that,like technology can disrupt your
entire audience and they haveno need, but then you have to be
ready to go find somebody else.
Like you know, in a lot ofthings, like with all this, this
macro evolution of tech right,which is threatening a lot of
things, you know apparentlythreatening.
You know marketing we talkabout all the time customer

(40:21):
service.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
You know that's going to always be.
It's the one thing you candifferentiate yourself from
Totally.

Speaker 4 (40:22):
But do you market this it's part of marketing, yes
.
And do you market it's aboutthe customer service?
And then hit those problemvalue propositions Like are you
tired of calling and talking tofreaking robots?
You can have an entire campaignabout robot, it's your machines
.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
Yeah, just like rail on.
I mean everybody's going to belike yeah when I call them.
Yeah, that's it, man.
It's true.
The only Jeremy about yourclimb club, just as a consultant
over here, lifetime myself.
Why only 58 bucks?
I mean, if they'll pay 58,they'll pay 99.
Aren't you leaving money on thetable?

Speaker 3 (41:03):
Hey, that's one of those trial and error type of
things.
We might raise the price at onepoint, but yeah, no, I've kind
of had that reaction from a lotof people.
That's a no-brainer.
Yes, sign me up, but I'll behonest with you.
Marketing an online communityis something that I've never

(41:25):
done before, so this is new tome.
I'm kind of learning as I go andso I wouldn't say we've got it
right yet.
We're trying some differentthings and kind of just trying
to figure it out.
But pricing it's one of thoseweird things where you want to
price it at some.

(41:46):
You don't want to make it free,but you don't want to make it
too expensive.
But the more expensive you makeit, the more valuable people
perceive it as right, whetherthey from the outside or the
inside.
An anecdotal story do freeconsultations.

(42:10):
They were not small 15-minutecalls.
I used to sit down with peopleand spend an hour, hour and a
half, sometimes two hours, likehey, this is what you need to do
.
These are some ideas you needto try.
Here are some blah, blah, blah.
If we do it for you, it's goingto cost this much.
They would look at the priceand be like, no, we're good.
They would go down the road tothe company that was cheaper and

(42:34):
do all the things I told themto do.
The minute that we startedcharging for that, our
conversion rate went up likedouble at least, and we started
out at $99.
This was about close to sixyears ago.
We started out at $99.
It's charging.
All right, this, thisconsultation, is $99.

(42:54):
Now we've we've just kind ofinched that up and now we do the
same it's.
We were a little bit moreinvolved with it, we we put a
little more time into it, butthe essentially the same thing
is is 2000 close to 2000.
So yeah, I would say if, ifthere's, if there's people out
there that are just starting todo something, especially if it's
service-based, you probablyneed to charge more than what

(43:17):
you're charging.

Speaker 4 (43:19):
And your client club is kind of like an online
consulting in a way.
Right, I mean, it's like whereyou can pay the $58.
Do you self-learn in thisenvironment?
Is that kind of the?

Speaker 3 (43:33):
Yeah, yeah, so you can go through and watch the
videos and do the things at yourown pace.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
So it's video training there's also the
mastermind, mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Yeah, that's good.
So it's about half and half.
There's a lot of videos.
There's also some written, kindof step-by-step instruction,
type of things.

Speaker 4 (43:57):
Do you have webinars and things?

Speaker 3 (43:59):
like that for your members.
Yes, yeah, we do thoseoccasionally.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
Good, I have several companies I want to get turned
on to this.
I was thinking right now, assoon as we get off, I'm going to
be sending them some emails andtexts to sign up for this thing
.

Speaker 4 (44:13):
We'd love to have them, and so they can go to
theclimbclubcom forward slashbig talk about small business.

Speaker 3 (44:26):
Hey and get a 404 right now, but we will put that.

Speaker 4 (44:30):
Why don't you do that and see how many of our
listeners come to there you?

Speaker 3 (44:33):
know, sure, um, yeah, let uh, uh, let's, let's get
that here and we'd love to.
Yeah, yeah, or we can, or wecan, we can put a coupon code or
something, something in theresome way to track them.
I would say, um, I'll say thisthat this is, this is a, this is
a huge plus, this is a hugebenefit to your listeners.
If they come, they sign up andwe can track them back to you

(44:56):
guys, I will give them a freeKindle version of the book.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Wow, there you go.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
I know the doors are going to be busted down now?

Speaker 4 (45:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you don't understandhow many millions of listeners
we have.
Oh yeah, it's crazy, you don't?

Speaker 1 (45:10):
understand how many millions of listeners we have.
Oh yeah, it's crazy.
It's crazy.
We can't even go out on thestreet here without getting
stopped, Jeremy, by peopletelling us how much they love
our show.
It does happen.
You've been on a few airplanerides.
It's the craziest thing I knowI've been on planes.
People come up to me.
I've seen you guys.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
Has that really happened?
Oh yes, yeah, that's impressive.
Yeah, you've made it as apodcaster.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
It's absolutely bizarre.
Yeah, I mean us.
We're right below Joe Rogan.
You know it's coming.
We just have to get some peopleon here who've had like alien
encounters and stuff to reallyget the big audience.
So, jeremy, what are yourthoughts on ufos?

Speaker 3 (45:57):
no, I'm so glad you asked.
I've actually I've actually gotanother online community, all
about that yeah, so, um so.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
So back back to sort of wrap things up though yeah,
you work with a lot of smallbusinesses, all right, you've
seen a lot of people startbusinesses.
What would be the most criticalpiece of advice that you could
give to small business ownersthat is going to increase their

(46:30):
odds of succeeding at whateverthey're doing?

Speaker 3 (46:37):
Be distinct.
I think it goes back tobranding, but be, be distinct.
If you look like everybody else, you're going to be forgettable
and the the you will waste moremoney being forgettable than
you will just about anythingelse.
Um, if you're forgettable, yourads are extremely inefficient,
um, and people just aren't goingto remember you.

(46:59):
But if you're distinct and youcan build those memory
structures um easily, um, thenyou're going to, you're going to
save yourself a lot of time andmoney, um.
I would say this to it beingdistinct make it.
It will make you nervous, right?
Because it kind of makes you goout on a limb a little bit.
And so, on a practical level, Iwould say, if you're making a

(47:22):
marketing decision and itdoesn't make you at least a
little bit nervous, it'sprobably boring and it's
probably forgettable.
So I would say, for for allsmall business owners out there,
don't be afraid of doingsomething that just kind of kind
of kind of makes you questionyourself just a little bit,
because if you're doingsomething that that is safe and

(47:43):
feels good, it's going to wasteyour money.

Speaker 4 (47:47):
Hey Jeremy, can you give us some examples?
That's great, yeah, it reallyis really good advice, and I
agree 100%.
What are some examples of beingdistinct, though?
Like I mean throw some out?
I mean, there's a lot of themthat are going in my brain, but
I'd love to hear what you'rethinking.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
One of my favorite ones is a water company, and so
you go to your gas station.
You open the cooler where thebottled waters are.
What do you see most of thetime?

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Describe that scene You're talking about brands.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
Yeah, the colors, what's it look like?
White and blue and gray andsilver.
Yeah, maybe a waterfall or adeer or some woodland creature.
Yeah, yeah, a lot of names withsprings and, yeah, and crystal.
And yeah, yes, yes, art, yes,artisan, um, one of one of the

(48:40):
companies that I'm actuallyfascinated with and I fanboy
over a little bit.
Um is a company that came on thescene I think about six or
seven years ago and they, theyentered a saturated market, no
pun intended, or pun intended,um, that is, they entered a
saturated market and, uh, theydid something just completely
off the wall.

(49:00):
Um, they came in and theydidn't, they didn't make a clear
bottle, they didn't, you know,put water imagery on it.
Really, they put their water ina can and called it liquid
death.
Yeah, um, and they, they arevalued at, I think, close close
to, or over a billion dollarsnow.
Wow, yeah, uh, and the.

(49:21):
The thing that pushed them overthe edge is they went with a
very distinct branding.
Right, you don't miss thisthing.
Like it looks like, it almostlooks like it's a beer, yeah,
and that's part of that's partof how they kind of got their
foothold, as they were in a lotof festivals and it gave people
who were non-drinker you knowthey didn't drink beer gave them
a way to kind of have somethingto hold and not look like

(49:43):
they're just holding a bottle ofwater.
The water's not great, right?
There's nothing differentiatedabout the water.
It tastes like it's from a can.
It's not.
It's you know.
Um, some, some people are veryparticular.
They have very strong feelingsabout Dasani or Aquafina, all
that sort of stuff.
But Liquid Death came along.
They didn't.
They didn't make any sort oflike supreme water.

(50:03):
They just made a very distinctbrand that they were able to
play into.
All of their marketing andmessaging is about death.
It's very edgy, and so they're.
Probably one of the extremecases of this is how you be
distinct and you take a risk andit pays off.

Speaker 4 (50:21):
I will say this Go ahead.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
I was going to say people don't get fired in large
corporations for making safedecisions, and I think that's
why, even if the, even if the,even if the safe decision is, is
ineffective and it fails, theydon't get fired for that, right?
Um, but if you're, if, if youare making a risky decision and
have a risky proposal, it it isscarier, but it oftentimes is a

(50:46):
lot better.
Um, rory Sutherland, one of oneheroes, wrote this book called
Alchemy.
I think the subtitle is likethe dark art and magic of
marketing or something like that.
But he uses this example of RedBull and how they came up with
the Red Bull.
And you think about it.
It's like it's a tiny littlecan.

(51:08):
It's twice as expensive, ittastes like ass no-transcript

(51:37):
had had tastes like Cola andwe're going to put it in a
bottle, you know, and charge adollar 99 for it.
No one would have said that's ahorrible decision.
You know you're going to getfired for that, but someone had
to take a risk and say we'regoing to make this, we're going
to make this tiny, tiny littlecan, we're going to charge twice
as much for it.
It's not going to be a great,it's going to be an acquired

(51:57):
taste, right, people aren'tgoing to naturally just
gravitate towards this taste.
But you think about all thepsychological things that are
happening when, with thatdecision, it's smaller, it's
more expensive, so it feels morevaluable.
It tastes bad, so it must bedoing something for me right.
And so there's all of these kindof unintuitive,

(52:20):
doesn't-make-sense-on-papertactics that went into it.
But in the real world becausewe're irrational kind of dumb
decision-makers when it comes toour buying habits in the real
world it works and it happens.
I think the frustrating thingthat a lot of small business

(52:41):
owners do is if it doesn't lookgood on paper, if it doesn't
make rational sense, they shyaway from it.
But what they don't understandis people are irrational and we
and we have irrational buyinghabits, and so if you could tap
into that, then you're you'regolden.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
I think that's a good interesting point and you know,
it's kind of.
My dad was in the advertisingbusiness.
He was Don Draper in real lifein every regard.
You know the jag, a close horse, stay out all night, you name
it Okay.
Anyway, he used to tell me adexecutives die at age 57.

(53:22):
He lived to be 96, but heretired at 57.
But anyway, he always saidmarketing was ruined by research
because, you know it, they tookall the fun out of it.
You know, and it, and there'ssomething to that.
It's like if you ask everybodywhat they want, yeah, and they
tell you and then you deliver itand it flops.

(53:43):
You know, I always use theexample of the pontiac aztec.
I don't know if you're a carguy, jeremy, but I mean, you
know, I remember that, yeah, itwas one of the most heavily
researched automobiles inhistory.
So was the, you know, and itturned out to be a total flop.
They thought 25 year olds wouldbuy it, or outdoorsy, you know,

(54:04):
they sold it to like 70 yearolds who wanted a cheap car.
You know, it's like it totallymissed the mark.
Car, you know, it's like ittotally missed the mark.
Sometimes the mark you can gooff course by asking people what
they want.
You've got to figure outsomething that they want or need
, that they don't even know theywant or need well, and that's.

Speaker 3 (54:26):
that's the thing I so .
I don't don't quote me assaying this, but but sometimes
great marketing, just it makespeople want things.
Yeah, right, it does.
It's like exactly what you said.
They don't know what they wantuntil you present it, say you
want this.
Right, it's the same.
It's with the distinctionbetween an Apple and an Android

(54:47):
phone, right?
Or?
Which camp do you guys fall inApple?
I'm on Android.
I'm.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
Apple, you're Android , right or which?
Which camp do you guys fall inapple I'm on android I'm apple.
Yeah, I didn't know that.
Yeah, look at it.
Oh dude, what the heck is wrongwith you.
It's freaking great.
I moved to apple years ago whenI decided I didn't want to have
problems.
Everything works.

Speaker 4 (55:05):
I'm going to apple because you're different.
You are different.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
I'll grant you that.
The fascinating thing aboutthis is you both have reasons,
and probably none of them arerational.
Right, you?
You made this.
You made an emotional decisionto choose a brand, yeah, and you
built your reasons around it,like you started building
reasons to justify why you'rethis Right, but there's there's
really no rational reason forchoosing one over the others.

(55:31):
They're, they're bothsupercomputers in your pocket.
They pretty much do the samething, right, sure?

Speaker 1 (55:36):
So yeah, just one of them is a lot easier and more
reliable.
You're being 100% emotionalright now.
I was the last guy to give upon BlackBerry, jeremy, yeah.

Speaker 4 (55:48):
I was the last guy.
Now, blackberry was a rationaldecision.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
I mean, it was legit.
You know what I saw the otherday, just this couple days ago.
You can buy something for yourphone that plugs into a case and
it's got a blackberry keyboardbuilt into it.
No way, seriously, I could takethis iphone and plug it in that
thing with the blackberrykeyboard.
Did you need it anyway?
I may have to try that someday,but all right, we're running
out of time, um great episode,jeremy.

Speaker 4 (56:16):
Thanks for joining us , man.
Yeah, it's really good this isfun.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
You guys, y'all, y'all are a great podcast, great
host, thank you thanks, andwell, he's the host.

Speaker 4 (56:25):
I'm just.
I mean, you saw him on the showjust a minute ago, like earlier
on, like he's like.
Hey, listen, eric, we've talkedabout this.
You need to quit asking thesequestions.
I'm the host.
As mark's blog, sit back, shutup and just just play.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
He's so full of it.
We're in his own studio here.
Okay, he's the guy that's gotthe checkbook.
So, anyway, I'm just an old guy.
No, no, no, who Eric has takenunder his wing.
It used to be the other wayaround, you know, but it's
switched.
I always said the mentee hasexceeded the mentor, and now I'm

(57:05):
here to learn from him.

Speaker 4 (57:07):
Yeah, but I'm still scared of this guy.
I'm scared of him to look at myfinances and my business.
He'll rip them apart.
But I do use it against my team.
I'm so scared of this guy LikeI'm scared of him to look at my
finances and my business He'llrip them apart.
But I do use it against my team.
I'm like do you want me to sendthis to Mark Zweig?
And they're like, oh shit, I'llget my shit together.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Well, listen, no, it's been, it's been.
It's been great having you here, Jeremy, and we wish you
continued success and thank youfor helping the small businesses
that you help, yeah.

Speaker 4 (57:31):
And everybody go check out the climb clubcom
that's right and tell them thatbig talk about small business
sent you and you'll get thathookup from Jeremy and if you
need other help beyond the climbclub, see Jeremy.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4 (57:44):
Marketing strategy yeah, absolutely All right.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
Well, thanks guys.

Speaker 3 (57:49):
Thank you, Jeremy.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
And all right folks.

Speaker 4 (57:55):
Well, thanks, guys, Thank you, Jeremy, and all right
folks.
Well, we're going to sign off.
It's been another episode ofBig Talk About Small Businesses.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk
About Small Business.
If you have any questions orideas for upcoming shows, be
sure to head over to our website,
wwwbigtalkaboutsmallbusinesscomand click on the Ask the Host
button for the chance to haveyour questions answered on the
show.
Stay connected with us onLinkedIn at Big Talk about Small

(58:29):
Business and be sure to headover to our website to read
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