Ep. 86 - The Fundamentals of Selling Anything

Ever wonder why some businesses grow explosively while others struggle to survive? The answer lies in their approach to sales. This episode digs deep into the heart of business growth as Mark and Eric tackle the complex art and science of effective selling.

Breaking through common misconceptions, we reveal why selling has nothing to do with deception or extroverted personalities. Instead, we explore how genuine problem-solving, emotional connection, and relentless follow-through drive sustainable business growth. For technical experts or operations-focused entrepreneurs who've avoided the sales function, this episode offers a fresh perspective on why mastering these skills is non-negotiable.

From the psychological triggers that drive buying decisions to the disciplined activities that create predictable results, we unpack the frameworks that successful salespeople use daily. You'll learn why it typically takes seven follow-ups to close a deal, how your brand reputation dramatically impacts sales effectiveness, and why showing up in person still matters in our digital world.

Most importantly, we address the balancing act every entrepreneur faces: maintaining persistent sales activity while building authentic relationships that transcend transactions. Whether you're handling sales yourself or building a team, this conversation provides actionable insights to transform your approach to new business development.

Want to continue the conversation? Visit bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com to connect with us directly and have your questions addressed in future episodes.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I heard that yesterday about somebody whose
job is to sell that the only waythey could do something that
had to do with data populationof a database was to shut their
phone off every day.
I'm like what the hell?
Have we got people who can'tfrigging multitask around here?
Are you shitting me?
Shut your phone off.

(00:21):
I never shut my phone off, evenwhen I'm asleep.
My phone's on it's same.
Shut my phone off so I canconcentrate on data entry.
Yeah, my God.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
What is wrong here?
Good morning everyone.
Good morning, good morningeveryone.
Good morning, good morningFayetteville.
Or should I say good morningRogers.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Good morning planet Earth, mark.
We're freaking across the globe, buddy.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
No, I thought we weren't.
Now I thought we're all aboutonly our country and to hell
with everybody else.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Isn't that the planet ?

Speaker 3 (01:04):
We're still across the globe.
We're spreading message Allright.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Good, we're worldwide , we don't care about anybody
else, that's right.
That's right.
There's no tariff on what wesell, that's right.
A big talk about small business?
That's right.
It is available to all,tariff-free.
Tariff-free, yeah, yeah, that'swonderful, isn't it?
And with the communicationnetworks we have today, and the

(01:31):
internets of things.
So, hey, welcome back.
We're here with another episodeof that Big Talk About Small
Businesses.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
That was a good one.
That's the best one yet.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
You set me up, I did, man, you make it easy to
succeed, thank you, thank you,you lobbed me a softball.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
I did so today we're going to talk about selling
which is probably the number onething for every business owner
that's ever existed and neverwill exist Sales, sales, sales
and more sales.
Baby Drives everything man.
It's everything man.
You often say there's onlyproblems in business.

(02:17):
They're either good or they'rebad, and I've heard people say
don't sell anymore what.
I've heard that happen before.
What do you mean?
Stop selling, stop selling.
We're overwhelmed.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
I'm like no no, Get your system so you can handle
the demand is the answer right,that's right.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
Stop selling.
Never stop selling.
You can't, I mean?
And what about growing too fast?

Speaker 1 (02:45):
It's never been anything I worry about.
I've seen and I, you know I'veprobably even propagated some of
the misinformation on that.
Well, it's not, you know it'slike.
Well, the most you can grow issomewhere around 30, 35%,
depending on the business, basedon uh and and generate your own
internal capital.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, but you know most businesses it's like a mix.
It's like maybe we can grow by20%, make 15%.
It's a combination of thegrowth rate and the
profitability.
Yeah, but there's alwaysexceptions, yeah, right, yeah, I
was going to say just sell man.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah, just keep selling, don't worry about that,
that's right.
Always worry, always worrylater about what sales have done
.
That might be another problem.
It's a good problem though.
Yeah, that's a good problemwhen you sell too much.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Again, it's entrepreneurship or it's small
business?
Yeah, okay.
And when demand?
I mean, my whole goal withmarketing was always to drive
demand beyond our ability tosupply.
That's right, because when youdo that, what happens?
You're going to be moreselective about who you sell to,
right, okay.
You're going to raise yourprices, yep, okay.

(03:56):
It all comes down to when youdon't have enough work, though,
what are you going to do?

Speaker 3 (04:00):
You're going to start cutting expenses, going out of
business.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Lowering your prices, doing anything you can do to
get paid so you can survive.

Speaker 3 (04:10):
Right, no, bueno, that's a bad problem, that's no
fun.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
No, I'd much rather deal with too much demand.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yeah, not enough, absolutely A hundred percent.
So I mean, like, we talk aboutsales though, right, sales.
By the way, I'd like to startout with the fact that if you're
not into sales, you could be anentrepreneur, right, and you're
starting a business, but you'vebeen in operations, you're
finance, you're a tech guy.
Tech guy, yeah, that's a bigone, right, especially in
today's world.
But I mean, you know, like,when people think of sales, I

(04:41):
don't think they give it enoughcredit as to how absolutely
cumbersome, complex,significantly difficult it can
be.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
And all the tools that go with it, all the
practices, the methodologies.
I mean there's a science, yeah,big time science.
There is a science, yeah, andso I mean I feel like that you
know, as an entrepreneur, ifyou're starting up a business,
you need to really respect thysales.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yes, Well't respect it.
A lot of people that's fair,especially technical people,
because they think, oh, to sellyou have to lie, right?
I don't lie, therefore I can'tsell.
Right, it's not true.
It's just not true.
No, or I'm not a, I'm not asuper, you know, extroverted,

(05:26):
extroverted, yeah, big talker,that's not my style.
Therefore I can't sell.
Well, that's not true either,not true at all.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Selling is about.
I mean, you're expressing avalue of which you're willing to
invest in back to me to deliverthat value to you.
It's just that simple.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
It is To me it's problem solving.
Yeah, as my friend Joey Bookover at Lewis Automotive Group
likes to say.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
I don't sell anything , guys, I just solve problems,
just solve problems, yeah, allday, every day, all kinds of
different situations.
If I can solve their problem,then the sale's made.
Mm-hmm, there's a lot of truthto that.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
Very much, very much so.
I think one of the firstquestions that somebody had
asked was why people buy bytapping into emotional drivers
and building trust versus I meanI have a pretty strong
perspective on that.
I mean like my style, I guess,of what you would call selling.

(06:27):
I mean it's definitely more onthe emotional side.
You're an emotional guy.
I mean I'm a very emotionalperson.
Right, it allows you to connectwith people.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
No, it does right, Because you seem real.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Yeah, and I genuinely want to connect with people
right, and back to your point.
I genuinely want to connectpeople right, like I, and back
to your point.
I genuinely want to solve aproblem.
I want to be that person thatcan deliver something to
somebody, and that's a that'sdefinitely an emotional thing.
And so if I walk into a meetingand I'm talking to somebody,
I'm literally the number onerule I have is I just shut up
and listen, for the most partuntil I start getting on a

(07:03):
rampage.
Yep, you know, but I like tohear what their problems are,
what their obstacles are facingyes, really understand.
And then I can take whatever itis that I can do and how do I
express that I can get thatvalue to them to solve that
problem.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
But you know.
The other thing that you do,though, is I think there's an
inherent honesty with you, Likeyou're not going to misrepresent
what you can do Right, oryou're not afraid to say we can
do X, but this is going to be YRight.
There may be, it may not all beroses.
That gives somebody a whole lotmore credibility than the

(07:40):
person who never, who acts likethere's not going to be any
issue.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
You know what I'm saying Right, sure, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
That honesty builds trust and, of course, nobody's
going to sign on the line ifthere's no trust.
No, it's very, very true.
I mean yeah, I mean the MattLewis thing is, first they got
to know you, then they got tolike you and then they got to
trust you, and so you get peopleto know you.

(08:09):
How do you get people to knowyou?

Speaker 3 (08:13):
What do you think I mean?
The first thing I do is I askabout them Exactly.
You know what I'm saying.
But I'm genuinely interested,Like, what are your hobbies?
What do you like to do?
I mean, where do you go?
I mean, what's?
What's going on in your, your,your friend circle, family
circle, how long?
I mean what's going on in yourcareer?
I mean, there's so many thingsto talk about.
It's not.
It's not about, like you know,spitting out some sort of sports

(08:36):
stats so I can have some sortof connection with somebody.
Yeah, because I mean I don'treally watch sports and I don't
get into that.
I, you know I don't either.
I mean I'm the same way, youknow.
But I mean, yeah, but I meanyou're another human being and I
think that you're.
I mean, if I'm approaching youto sell you something or to to
uh do business with you like I'm, I mean you're most likely have
some level of success that I'mgenuinely interested in learning

(09:00):
about you know that's it's sucha good point.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
I think if you just ask questions of people, they'll
think you're great yeah youknow it and tell very little
about yourself.
But they'll go, wow, that ericis great, yeah, okay, yeah, I
don't know anything about him,but god, he sure seemed
interested in me.
Yeah, like I'll never forget,one time my ex-wife wanted me to
go out with her friend and herhusband, uh-huh, and so I meet

(09:23):
this guy and he was a sort oflow level manager in Walmart
corporate.
He did not ask me a singlequestion about, like, where I
was born, what I do, nothingCould get two flying crabs and I
thought, wow, this guy is anasshole.
Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry, but hereally was.

(09:45):
Okay, she ended up gettingdivorced from the guy.
Yeah, anyway, he doesn't careabout other people.
He didn't, he just didn't.
It was just so apparent to meand I said to her it's like I
don't want to waste any timehanging out with him anymore.
Yeah, I mean, I like her, she'syeah.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
I mean I can rewind all the way back to junior high
and just being able to get alongwith everyone and anyone.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
I'm sure you were good at that, knowing you Well,
I mean, I just enjoyed people.
You're just loved by people.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
I just enjoyed people , man it's natural for you.
Yeah, I mean it doesn't matterwhere you're born, anything
about you.
I can get along with you andhave conversation just because.
I mean there's always interest.
I can get along with you andhave conversation just because.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
I mean, there's always interest.
It's intriguing to me.
Yes, you know that's importantto be able to sell.
Yeah, no, it is.
I mean, that's why you're.
That's sort of the startingpoint, for why you can be
effective.
Now, not everybody who doesthat necessarily is going to be
a good seller, right, right.
So like, what else do you feelis critical besides on the
emotional?

Speaker 3 (10:43):
side, yeah, besides On the emotional side, yeah, I
think on the emotional side is,I think that you know.
My second thing that I'm kindof inquisitive about is what's
stressing you out?
Yeah, what are your problems?
Yeah, where are your pains at?

Speaker 1 (10:56):
right or, as the cliche, what keeps you awake at
night.
Right, right, people say.
I always say my prostatecondition is what keeps me awake
.
That's right, having to get upand take a leak every two hours
yeah, that's a big one for you.

Speaker 3 (11:10):
and so if I was selling, like you know, a
bedpain, you're like my perfectmark.
I understand, like howdisruptive it is to your deep
sleep that you have to get up,something like this check out my
new bedpan that I have, that'sgetting.
But I mean, like I can you know, to me it's To finding these
problems, yeah, finding theseproblems, and it's not saying

(11:33):
what keeps you up at night orit's not asking what are your
biggest problems, it's literallyjust so, what's going on, how
can I help?
Or what you know, what's,what's your day, how's your day
with my?
Yeah, how's your business?
And they'll tell you all theproblems.
Sure, sure, you know, andyou're there genuinely listening
, so that you can hear theproblems clearly.
And then you just startthinking about ways to solve
those or that, how you can solvethem.

(11:53):
Then I'll skip over ones that Ican't solve and I'll admit,
like, if it's not my category,like I'm yeah, you know, for
example, like podcast videos.
I mean, if you're talking to meabout you know, doing social
media calendars and all thistype of stuff, I'd be like, well
, I can help you on the videoside, but I'm not your person.
You need to find a really goodsocial agency that's really good
at that.
We're experts on this side.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
Right, that's going to give you immediate
credibility, though I think yeah, because you're not saying you
can just do anything.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
No, no, I don't do that and I mean, and so I think
that that and what people wantreally like in putting back on
the buyer side, like if I'mbuying something, I want to know
anything that I buy, I want toknow that I don't have to mess
with it.
I'm trying, I'm using my moneyso that I don't have to money

(12:41):
for time.
Exactly, and if you can make mefeel feel Because I can't
validate it, like I can'tscientifically, logically or
reasonably completely understandthat you are actually going to
do that I have to feel that Ican trust the fact that you care
enough about my time and mymoney, right, that you're going
to take care of this with me, bea good steward.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
Of my money, and so I think that that's an emotional
category, right, and it's likehow do you express to somebody,
how do you make them feel thatyou're not going to let them
down?
And I mean, part of it is aboutbeing passionate about what you
do.
Yeah, and not because you wantto solve a problem, right?
So I think that that getsarticulated, you know, through

(13:27):
the communication.
By the way, I think a big thingon this topic, you know, what a
lot of people don't understandis what communication really is,
and so, like there's been a lotof, I've heard this study quite
a few times.
It comes from different places,but there's really three
categories it's what you say,it's how you say it, and your
disposition, and your tone, ornot what you say, how you say it

(13:49):
, which is your tone, and thenyour disposition, your facial
expressions, and everybodythinks that it's what you say,
but that's like 20%, right?
Then the other 40-40 is splitbetween the tone and your
expression.
So when I'm talking to somebody,I know I'm talking like yeah, I
need to probably have be betterdressed if I'm going to a good,
a pretty significant salesmeeting.

(14:11):
Sure, I will, I will dress likewhat I expect that my client is
going to dress, right, you know, I mean, yeah, I would walk in
a t-shirt like this if I washaving a top to top executive
meeting.
Yeah, unless they all dresslike this, they all dress like
that.
Yeah, no, but I'm gonna, I'mgonna play the part right,
because it's a sign of respect.
Yes, it's a sign of respect 100yes, and so when I but during

(14:33):
the meeting, like what I foundout, though, is that, if I'm my
facial express, my dispositionis good, like I'm seemingly
open'm smiling, I'm happy to bethere, I'm not super nervous,
you know, I'm not, I'm notwigging out or I'm not miserable
or whatever it is, and so I'mexpressively communicating that

(14:54):
I'm glad to be right here and,by the way, I respect you as a
person that I can do businesswith.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, I'm so glad you said this because there's
somebody I've been working with.
He's the president of a company, mm-hmm, and if you're on a
Zoom call with the guys, right,it could be with a client, it
could be with somebody you'retrying to hire, it could be
somebody you're trying to get asan investor.
Whatever, he'll be like thishalf the time.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
No, no Okay.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Or like this I mean, it's absolutely, that's a killer
man.
It just looks terrible.
It's like you cannot do that.
No, you look like you're notpaying attention.
You look like you're completelystressed and burnout.
Yeah, that doesn't inspire anyconfidence.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
No, so even on Zoom calls, you see these things
Shoot telephone calls, Iwouldn't say even emails yeah,
like your tone is communicating.
Oh yeah, there's no doubt aboutit, you know.
And so, on the tone part, likeI think that comes down to you
know, we've heard this clichelike if you don't believe in
your product, you can't sell.
But there's a lot of truth tothat.

(16:05):
You have to have passion behindwhatever you're doing, and I've
seen a lot of salespeople thatlose their passion and they just
don't sell as much.
They're living in this box ofmisery and that's being
communicated to your clientevery single time.
But if I'm walking in to meetsomebody, I'm genuinely excited
about solving a problem.
I'm genuinely excited about themarketing landscape, digital,

(16:29):
ai, all this this stuff, allthis changing, evolving industry
that we have, and then it'scausing massive problems and
stress for a lot of people.
Yeah, that's why I get excitedabout because I'm the one that's
going and spending burningmidnight oil to figure the
freaking hell out, to put all myhistory attached with the new
stuff and I figure it out sothat I can help other people to

(16:53):
be successful yeah, you knowwhat else, though that you?

Speaker 1 (16:56):
I think you do that.
Maybe you're not even cognizantof part of your excitement,
yeah, of this meeting is thatyou may make a new friend.
Yes, okay, I love connections.
You do.
You love that.
Yeah, I, I can see that andthat comes across to people.
Yeah, but it's genuine.
But but what about people whoare out there right now and are

(17:17):
like, oh, that's all great,these guys control their
businesses, they sell what theywant to sell.
They should be happy, they youknow whatever.
Okay, but here I am.
Okay, I'm here.
I was talking with one of myformer students just this
morning, early this morning.
He is selling life insurance.
Okay, he goes, the company ispushing us to sell term policy

(17:43):
or whole life policies to peopleover 60 to cover at least six
or nine months of their housepayment.
60 to cover at least six ornine months of their house
payment, so their kids can dealwith getting rid of their house
when they die and not have itlike go into immediate
foreclosure because they've gotno cash.
Okay, because, do you thinkthat's a good idea or not?
Because I'm not sold on it likehell, I don't know.

(18:06):
Right, I don't think aboutthings like that.
Necessarily you know what I'msaying that seems like, wow,
you're down to that level ofwhere they have absolutely no
money at all.
Yeah, and they're not evengoing to be able to make the
house payment the first month.
The person dies.
That's a pretty, that's anaudience.
That's, you know, that's alower income audience.

(18:29):
But he goes.
I'm not sure that's a goodthing and I'm like, wow, that's
going to be hard for you to sellit.
Yeah, if you're not sure that,that's a great solution for
people who are in this position,yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:42):
Well, my, my thing to sell that, well, my thing would
be, is that, like you know, canyou, we can all do this and we
do it all the time.
We make judgments, we haveopinions really quick on things
and we look for the negativesand stuff right, whereas I mean,
if I was in this situation Well, that's true too I would dig

(19:02):
into that, like understand, likethere was a reason this was
created, most likely Based on areal need.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yes, yeah, I got it.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah, like Because people did end up in this
situation.
Right no 100.
So there's right.
Genesis of this, of thisproduct.
Right is based on potentiallyreal need.
You need to go figure that out.
Right and very good point, andI would say that you have to.
I didn't give them that adviceI wish I had.
Well, I mean the thing, go backafter this meeting.
This applies to everything, butespecially with selling, if you

(19:33):
don't have a greater purpose inwhat you're doing then I mean,
that's a big mistake and thatgoes, it doesn't matter what
position you hold, butespecially in sales, because you
have to, you have to be alignedto that purpose.
And then, if you're doing lifeinsurance, you have to think and
you have to believe that I'm inthis business to really help

(19:53):
protect people, sure, reallyhelp provide these, these things
, yeah if you're not sold onthat, forget it.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, they're probably not going to be able to
do it.
No, I want to step back for aminute now on something about
selling.
Okay, that I think is reallyimportant for people to
understand.
I was fortunate.
Early on in my career, when Ifirst got out of grad school, I
went to work for a consultingfirm that the founder used to be

(20:19):
the national sales manager forXerox Corporation.
He understood how to sell, yeah, okay, yeah, he trained people
how to sell.
Xerox was a selling machine backin the 1960s, all right, and so
he had.
And then he went to work formanagement recruiters, which is
a recruiting firm.

(20:39):
They knew how to sell.
Yeah, they had a salesmanagement training program.
And he I was so lucky at 22 towork for somebody who was a
quote sales manager, you know,who understood.
He taught me some things thatI've never forgotten that sales
people need to understand.

(21:00):
If you really want to sell nowagain, I'm not talking about us
as entrepreneurs and smallbusiness owners yeah,
necessarily, I'm.
I'm broadening it to anybodywho sells for a living yeah, you
got to have a discipline yeahthey focused on the activities.
How many outbound calls did youmake?
How many people did you getthrough to?

(21:21):
How many proposals did you make?
How many proposals did youclose?
The activities that lead up tothe sale?
As opposed to, mark brought in$100,000 a week.
That's what he focused on,always on the activity.
He taught me that if youractivities are in line with what

(21:42):
they knew, based on tens ofthousands of independent events,
the results would come out theother end 100.
I think a lot of people don'tunderstand that.
That level of work is also theway that you get experience.
Yep, and if you're out therejust pounding away at whatever

(22:04):
you do, whether that's emails,phone calls, texts, however it
is, you're trying to prospect.
Okay, you do enough of it,you're going to be successful.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
Man, I 100% agree.
That's the non-emotional,logical side of selling.
It's the work.
Yeah, it is.
It's the grunt work.
It's been proven time and timeand time again.
We actually have goals that weset on the revenue side of our
business, our KPIs.
But it starts out with how manyphone calls you make.
A hundred, you need to do ahundred a month.

(22:37):
If you do a hundred a month,you're going to have X amount of
meetings, yep, and out of thosemeetings you're going to have X
amount of presentations and outof those presentations, you're
going to have X amount ofopportunities.
Yes, out of those opportunities,you're going to have x amount
of closings.

(22:57):
Yep, right, and then that's howyou can measure that, and so I
mean you should be calling likethere was a time, like I'm
fortunate.
I wish I could get back to itand I've tried a couple times.
But being an entrepreneur, youdon't have just one job of
selling, like I wish right.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
I know you can't devote your entire day to it.
You can't right.
And unless you're, you're atleast not just selling customers
, you may be selling otherpeople, everybody.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
Employees everybody right?
Yeah, investors, bankers, Imean parents, liars, whatever
the hell, yeah, you know, but Imean.
But, like, if I remember when Iwas just in pure sales mode and
but there was, I had so muchenergy, are the, the, the source

(23:33):
of energy for everyone andeverything?
Yes, you're the source ofenergy for your company.
You're the source of energy foryour clients.
The market yeah, but I wouldwake up like I didn't count how
many times I would call.
All I did was call.
All I did was email.
All I did here's the big thingis, I showed the hell up.
There are people gettingtogether every single day in

(23:56):
every single community.
They're meeting, they'renetworking, they're, they're
collecting, they're eating lunch.
There's something you got toshow up.
I'm telling you, vince bepresent in person.
You cannot held out and behinda computer all day long.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
Oh, that's a problem with a lot of young people.
Yeah, I mean, you know again,like I was always encouraged by
my bosses, I think of the firstthree companies I worked in
before I started my own businessthey all encouraged me to get
involved with the professionalsocieties the chamber of
commerce yes, the client, uh, uh, you know, trade groups.

(24:33):
It was invaluable to me.
Yeah, the people I met.
Some of those people I stillknow today 100, 40, 45 years
later and they became very goodclients of mine and it got my
name out there and so you'reabsolutely right about that.
You got to show up, you got toget out there, press the flesh,
meet people, you know I mean,like here's the.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
The thing about it is is that you can't look at it as
transactional.
No, you know what I'm saying.
You look at it as relational,and that's so much more fun it
is isn't it like?
And you know what I?
What I want to wig out is yeah,anytime they're saying man,
that's not a good meeting, youshouldn't take that meeting, you
shouldn't go have a coffee withthis person, you shouldn't, you
shouldn't, you shouldn't.
That's a waste of time.

(25:17):
There is no such thing onplanet Earth as a wasted time
meeting with anybody.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
I'm glad you said that, okay, because here's how
that applies in my mind toselling and I know you've
experienced this before.
Okay, and a lot of logicalpeople.
Let's say I worked withengineers my whole life.
Whenever you start talkingabout selling, they inevitably
want to know, well, who are thebig clients out there?
Let's devote all our energyonly to the big ones that have

(25:49):
potential, that we know havework.
Okay, right, I never subscribedto that theory.
I never once did.
I'm like those are the peoplethat everybody's going after.
I like building my businesswith all these other people who
are not getting called.
I'll never forget I called onthis one company when I was

(26:10):
young and I worked for thisengineering firm, like 25.
The guy I get him on the phonehe's like he calls another guy
over.
He's like Bob, you got tolisten to this.
This guy is with an engineeringfirm and he's actually calling
us to try to sell us services.
It was a novel thing.
Yeah, he had gotten calledbefore.

(26:30):
That's crazy, okay, but I'mjust saying why is that
preoccupation with all theselogical people only for going
after the big fish and then theyignore all these other people
out here who have means andmaybe they'll turn into a big
fish someday.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Oh, that's the thing is.
You want to be in their mindwhen the decision time comes.
Yes, yes, yes, not when they'rein the middle of trying to
figure things out right and yeah, and that big money flow.
The bigger the clients, the themore strenuous the rfps are,
the bigger the more people whoare involved, that are, you're
not in touch with attorneys andpurchasing.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
It just gets all this , this and then you got all this
political drama that happens.
You can have the best.
I can't tell you how manyfantastic I mean slam dump
meetings that I've had withclients.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
It was shot down by somebody else completely.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
After the meeting.
He wasn't even involved in it.
They made the decision or hadan influence.
Or they're like oh, we alreadygot that, yeah.
Or oh, that's good information,let's just do it ourselves,
yeah.
How many times is that?
Oh, dude, I'm sure a milliontimes, all over the place in big
corporations, and I loveworking with smaller businesses,
I love working with the up andcomers right?

Speaker 1 (27:44):
Well, it's also makes your business more resilient
and you don't have that clientconcentration risk that devalues
your company when all your workcomes from one client yeah, or
customer.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yeah, and I think it's also like a challenge to me
, like I actually talked to oneof our clients yesterday.
I called him up and I was likeit looks like the stuff that
we're doing for you, our service, is working.
Yeah, do you feel that way?
Yes, I've seen more traffic.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
You weren't afraid to ask that question.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
No, yeah, no, I want to know.
I want to genuinely know thatwhat I'm doing and you're paying
me for freaking working.
I need to know that, sure.
And then I'm like, okay, that'sgood, we're on the same page
today.
But then I brought up anotherpoint.
I was like can you prove thatwhat we're doing is working?
Well, I mean, it's hard to tell, but we feel that way.
I'm like, good, I agree, I'mfeeling the same thing, but I
want us together to prove this,because I want you to know for

(28:40):
certain and me to know andthat's a hard thing to do in
advertising right Is togenuinely prove that what you're
doing is actually working.
And so that conversation ledinto.
Here's what we need to do.
We, we believe, together, thisis working.
Let's make some improvementsquickly to prove that value.
And then, if that's the case,what this is telling me is that

(29:01):
we can double down.
I was gonna say do more of it.
More of it, baby.
Yeah, so you might be doing athousand dollars right now, a
month, we can get you to twothousand bucks.
Let's walk into it.
But man, man, I think we'reonto something here.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Let's win the freaking gather.
Why don't people?
Instead they'll just sit backand celebrate We've got a good
client there.
Okay, yeah, not.
Like.
What else can we do for thisclient?
Oh my God, okay, oh my God.
It drives me crazy.
Thing though, I experiencedwith like direct mail or email.
It's like we did this email.
It worked great, all right wayto go.

(29:34):
My response is always like howmany more people are you going
to send that out to?
What are you doing it again?
They haven't even thought ofthat no, I know, it's like you.
My biggest clients, my biggestclients have always started with
a really small job of courseyou demonstrate your capability,
yeah, and, and the fact thatyou're willing to do that and be
of service, the biggest thing.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
If I have a new prospect I'm talking to, I just
want to sell one small littlething.
Let me get a taste.
Give me a little taste, alittle sample of that rock yes,
a little sample and then when Iget in, then I can start proving
okay, we can execute there.
We're fair, pricing, exactly,we build trust.
I will never let you down.

(30:14):
I will die before I fail you.
Yeah, that is also a bigmentality.
That's what a salesperson andan entrepreneur has to have.
I have literally visualizedmyself crawling on College
Avenue in Fayetteville back inthe day, bleeding and crawling
across the street and dying inthe street on behalf of the
clients, and that, to me, is howfar I'll freaking go.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
That'd be a terrible place to die because it really
looks like hell.
North college, that's not.
It not if it was for the sakeof the business.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
That is honor and glory.
Then everybody'd be like dudeeric died from working so hard.
I'm telling you, what honor isthat?
I mean, what else are you goingto do?
Die from being bored andplaying?
No, but I mean, you've got tobelieve in that so much that you
don't fail.
If I sign a deal, I reallyhonestly, I don't fear failing

(31:07):
them.
Don't fear failing them.
I fear of our team not havingthe energy and the passion and
the purpose to execute for thereputation, for the good of the
company.
Like all that stuff is going onmy brain, right, but is it on
everyone else's brain?
That's where I think anentrepreneur or business owner
has to be really caught.
Now that turns into managementoversight, right, and also just

(31:30):
letting go a little bit, becausethey won't ever be you, but
anyway.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
But I didn't mean to interrupt you.
You got me thinking about itwhen you're talking about how do
I get this across to the restof the people in the firm or the
business, to that certainly not.
A panacea is to constantly knowwhat your ideal target customer

(31:55):
is, what drives them, whatmotivates them, what excites
them, what their typicalproblems are.
Not any one individualspecifically, yeah, but knowing
who your target customer is andeverybody in here knowing who
the target customer is and thengetting them all geared around
that, yeah, the way they dress,the way they speak, the way they

(32:18):
, you know, the way theycommunicate, the means that they
use to communicate that's animportant point.
To sort of rally, to give focus100% To who it is that you're
really going after, to givefocus 100 to who it is that
you're really going after,because it's like you know, I I
mean I, it's it just to me it'slike you know I had a san

(32:38):
francisco office for years, yeah, and let's just say you have
somebody out there who dealswith clients and they talk like
this and they go up at the endof every sentence and everything
is a question and they're outthere selling our services to
somebody in friggin kansas,who's like a former military
officer, now owns his ownbusiness.

(33:00):
Like you, can't talk like that.
Okay, you cannot talk like that, all right you have to mimic
and mirror your clientele.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
Yeah, and that's where who's our target client,
though?
Well, that's, that's see what Imean.
That's such a good point forthe, for a business owner,
because there's such there'sthis trend of this discussion
about company culture and havinga cool company culture and
you're unique and all this stuffand you promote it all over
socials.
But if your company culture isnot aligned to your target

(33:32):
audience, dude, so true, likeyou, you're gonna hurt yourself
right, I, I, years ago.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Years ago when, when facebook just started to come,
get popular, yeah, I had aclient that was con, that had
like a marketing person.
They constantly put stuff onfacebook and all they put on
there was party after partyafter party after party, nothing
about what the firm did at all.
And I said to the CEO I'm likeJesus, if I read your Facebook,

(34:00):
it looks like all you people dois have parties over there.
You'd be the last company I'dwant to call.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
It's like you're right.

Speaker 3 (34:10):
Like I pay you money so your team can go have a good
life and party.
That's not why people pay money.
I don't pay money to supportother people.
I pay money to get things backfor my money.
Yeah exactly that's what peoplethink.
It's so funny that you saidthat.
But I mean, it's all aboutmatching who your client is, and
that's just out of completerespect.

(34:32):
Yeah, like you know, I mean, ifI work with walmart and they
communicate and they're usingteams or whatever, or zoom,
guess what I do use teams,there's yeah, dude, right, I
don't like hello man, let's usegoogle me, that's all I got,
that's all I want.
I mean, no, dude, you, youmatch, you match with it, or do
they want in this format?
Or do you put it in this system?
You know you don't go againstthe grain.

(34:54):
Yeah, because it's what yourculture's doing right and you
don't like.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Try to shove your political value, orientation or
your values down their throat,either right.
That's why my business, I don'tallow any of that discussion
again you know, and this makesme sound so insensitive If I go
back 30 years again, I'll takemy San Francisco office.
The manager of that office usedas a pronoun S slash he.

(35:22):
Okay S for everything.
Okay S, slash he.
I'm like where'd you get that?
That's not again.
I got a client in freaking iowa.
They don't know what s?
Slash he is.
You could say he or she, sure,but no, she wanted to make a

(35:44):
point of the s comes first.
Slash he, even though the sortof conventional uh uh use of of
a yeah either, or would havebeen he slash she, yeah.
Do you see what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But just to force that onelittle thing.
It is something new to make apoint, just to make that point.

(36:06):
I'm gonna make that point like.
You can't do stuff like that,of course.
Course they thought I was crazy.
Yeah, okay, or some kind of amonster.
That would be important to me.
But I know I can anticipate howthat's going to be received
because I know these people.
As you say, yeah, yeah, I knowmy target customer Stick with

(36:28):
the game man.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
I mean, why make it more than what it is?
Yeah, exactly.
And don't you want to get apaycheck?
Don't we want to earn money?
No, I wouldn't.
It makes everything go around.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
No, no, no, I would impose my value system on you,
that's right, and shame you,that's.
That's not business.
Okay, that's your personal life.
Yeah, and boy, dude, I'm gonnakeep those separate.
100, 100.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yeah, I'm not gonna put my personal life out there
on facebook, so, or whatever, sopeople can line up on one side
or the other you know, I thinkthat it's worth talking about a
little bit about, like youbrought up, a little bit about,
the organizational tacticalprocess, but like another big
thing today that I think canreally and it stumbles me, but

(37:12):
they can stall out a lot ofbusinesses are the organ or the
softwares and the processes,sure the, the crm or whatever.
Yeah, I mean right, it's likeyou can just get god, you can
get sold just out of whack.
And then the automation of allleads and and all these
processes, like man, I meanthere there is.
There is a level of andespecially with the ai stuff,

(37:33):
like people can get reallytwisted up in this too, but
there is a level to where, likeit makes better sense just to
freaking do the work.
Yeah, I know, you know I meanyou're better off to start out
with a spreadsheet, numberswherever you're going, and just
work that plan, work that planright.
It's better to make more callsthan it is to build some sort of

(37:54):
automated system that mightpotentially make calls for you.
And then you're now you got tohire a team of people that know
how to automate all that andkeep it in check.
You know, like you don't reallyneed that much as a single
salesperson starting a business.
No, that's so true justsomething.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
That's your rolodex dude.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
That's what in the old days, that's what it was
yeah, yeah, I mean, we got thisbig business happened back in
the day.
Yeah, you know what that?
Now, if you're starting asoftware company where your
entire audience are global andthere is it's tech touch, and so
you don't, you don't anticipateother people.
Yeah, well, yeah, and there's nocommunication to a human
between you know you're supposedto transact online.

(38:33):
That's a different process,right, you know.
But for most businesses like,just keep your spreadsheet, you
know, and just make the callsshow up, that's where the most
of the money is going to happen.
So don't get stuck in it.
And I would say, say, on CRMs,don't overcomplicate it.
If you buy a lossless toSalesforce, they're going to try
to graduate you into themarketing cloud and then all

(38:55):
these other tools and all getstoo complicated.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
You want to keep it simple.
Very much so, or it won't bemaintained at all.
Right, the complexity ruins theimplementation.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
You don't need everyone's birthday and their
wife's name and all that kind ofcrap.
And, yes, how many times you'vetalked to them, gosh, I know.
Keep them in their runningreport.
You have your opportunities.
What was the deal?
Just be simple with it, yes,and you can get a lot more done.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
Well, the discipline.
The problem is with a lot ofbusinesses that I've dealt with
before.
When you start talking aboutcrm implementation is when the
top people don't use it.
Oh yeah, or they think they candelegate that to their
secretaries or admins like hereadd these 20 people in here,
whatever, that always breaksdown and fails you, or send all

(39:44):
those to so-and-so over inmarketing and they'll do.
It's got to be something thatpeople are really actually
interacting with on a continuousbasis throughout the day.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
Number one rule in cr , known this hygiene, is data
quality.
Yeah, good data in, good dataout, bad data in bad out.
I mean in as a salesperson oras the entrepreneur which you
are, a salesperson like yes,always selling need to make sure
that your data in there isaccurate, so that way you can

(40:12):
use that tool to help you scaleout a little bit more about what
you're doing.
But you can't trust anybodyelse with it, yeah, unless
you're relentlessly watching.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
Well, yeah, I think it just doesn't get done.
You know, that's another thingI just want to talk about again,
at the risk of being a brokenrecord, because it hardly, we
hardly do one of these showswhere it doesn't come up, and
that's the idea of respondingquickly.
Oh yeah, in selling, it'severything.

(40:43):
It is, it's absolutelyeverything.
We had it everything.
I noticed Brian Clark mentionedit on our show, you know, like
Friday afternoon he's like theonly guy that gets it.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
I mean, it's so, so true, and I got something for
everybody that's listening.
It's hard, I get tired, I'mexhausted, I don't want to call,
don't you want balance?

Speaker 1 (41:06):
in your work and personal life.
Yes, any balance, of course Iwant, you need to completely
shift out.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
No, I would rather work like a dog and win.
If you want to win, you gottaanswer the phone, you gotta call
.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
You are the greasy I heard the grease to the wheel
man I heard that yesterday aboutsomebody whose job is to sell
that the only way they could dosomething that had to do with
data population of a databasewas to shut their phone off
every day.
I'm like what the hell?
Have we got people who can'tfrigging multitask around here?

(41:39):
Are you shitting me?
Shut your phone off.
I never shut my phone off, evenwhen I'm asleep.
My phone's on it's same.
Shut my phone off so I canconcentrate on data entry.
My God yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
What is wrong here?
I remember about a decade ago Iwas at a.
I was working with a titlecompany and we had one of our
real estate agents in there atthe closing with their client
Right, and her phone goes off.
She gets up in the middle ofclosure.
She, she's like gotta take this.
This is my income.
Yeah, she, oh, I mean, dude,she doesn't miss a phone call.

(42:16):
Baby, exactly, don't miss them.
Like you got.
Like I know it's tiring, youknow, and I mean, yeah, but you
gotta take them, man.
I mean you always have to be,you have to be responding on the
emails.
I mean it just requires that.
It's so true, and it doesn'tmean that you're 100% all the
time.
Like Mark Zweig, if you dropdown, you have got to pick

(42:36):
yourself back up to be thatgreasy wheel that's going out
there.
And, by the way, there is arule of follow-up.
It takes seven follow-ups, Iknow.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
It takes seven follow-ups.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
It takes contacts to get yeah, to get a deal done.
Yeah, a lot of people thinkthey got this opportunity.
You write the scope, sit itover and you sit around and you
wait, your fingers cross, andyou know I don't want to bother
them, hell.
No, I mean, you stay on top ofthat because the longer that
that time span goes, the greaterthe odds are you ain't gonna go
ahead.
That's right.
And people, what?

(43:07):
The second that you deliverthat scope is just like we
talked about earlier.
They're gonna talk to somebodyelse and everyone's gonna shed a
little bit of doubt, just alittle doubt in here, to make
them go.
No, I thought this was a gooddecision, but maybe nancy's
right, maybe her brother orwhatever can do this better than
what are cheaper, yeah, cheaper, yeah, faster, her brother or

(43:28):
whatever.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, yeah, it's so true, isn't it?
Yeah, but but see this now.
I'm glad that came up, becausenow I want to go back to
marketing as to way it helps mesell.
Yes, okay, yes.
The value of your brand sell,yes, okay, yes, the value of

(43:49):
your brand, yep, and thefamiliarity with it.
It absolutely reduces the riskof that purchase decision for
that client or customer.
It's not all in the hands ofthe salesperson.
The best example of that I usedto have this case years ago in
my small enterprise class.
New United Motor ManufacturingInc Made the Toyota Corolla and

(44:14):
the Chevy Nova.
It was a joint venture ofToyota and General Motors.
They're made here in the US.
Okay, the same car.
One's branded a Nova, one'sbranded a, a geo prism or a
toyota corolla all right, samecar coming out of the same plant
, coming out of the sameassembly line.

(44:34):
All right, identical other thanthe labels and maybe the grill.
Yeah, toyota outsold gm likefive to one or more, and they
sold the cars for eight or $900more than what GM was getting
for the same car.
Why the brand?
Yeah, the brand sold.

(44:58):
Chevy dealers are selling theseother ones.
They're out there.
Hey, little buddy, tell meabout yourself.
Yeah, I'm going to sell youthis.
What are the payments?
You know a Toyota dealer.
They're like we're takingorders.
We've got three cars coming inin five weeks White, white or
white.
Which one do you want?
Right, okay, yeah, they don'thave to sell hard at all because

(45:21):
they've driven the demand withtheir marketing and have created
such a great brand.
We all know a friggin toyotacorolla is a good car, no
question about it.
Now, maybe chevy's we don'thave that same feeling about.

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Speaker 1 (45:52):
And so that's another thing.
I think, If you want to selleffectively, do the other things
that you need to do with yourmarketing.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
That creates the setting, that reduces the risk
in the client or customer tohire you, and it's familiarity.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
It's just that's all there is to it it's credibility
yeah you know it's and and ifyou have quality like like what
drives me nuts is like I'llstill see them like and the
construction trade's the worston the planet with it, Terrible
logo identities oh my God, Imean ferociously bad.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Always lost, always on a white truck, always with
letters that are too small,always just confusing and
non-memorable.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
Yeah, In every way.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
Your brand demonstrates the quality of work
that you do Absolutely true,yeah, and the truck's a pile of
crap too, I might add, rightFilthy quality of work that you
do, absolutely true, yeah, andthe truck's a pile of crap too,
I might add.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
Right filthy yeah by the way.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Yeah, you don't clean your stuff right, keep it
updated like I mean all thatstuff is part of your brand
identity.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Yes, it is, delivers familiarity and credibility to
your sales process.
Yes, I mean, did I tell you theuh?
What is?
It is a pinky window cleaning.
I don't know, I can't remember.
But anyway, I mean, they have afantastic brand and their
videos they show them working,everyone's dressed nice, right,
you know, and they have their,their brand on their uniform and

(47:13):
if you need your windowscleaned and somebody reaches out
to you from pinky, yeah,they're probably more likely to
use them right yeah?

Speaker 1 (47:20):
than abc windows.

Speaker 3 (47:22):
Yeah, I mean you can go look at a website, you go, oh
, they're credible.
Like you don't even have toread anything, you just like oh,
this is well put together.
Yeah, they know what they'redoing.
Yeah, they have a phone numberup there.
I can get a hold of them.
All these trust marks that'syour brand, like can I get a
hold of you if there's a problem?
Yes, do you look like that?
You know what you're doing.
Yes, you know there's your.
If you don't have pay anyattention to your own company

(47:43):
quality, how are you going togive me quality in mind?

Speaker 1 (47:46):
I've always been tuned into that and very
sensitive to that.
You know, like you say, I meanthe company, vehicles, the
parking lot, the signage,everything, it's all.
Those are all touch pointshere's.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
another guy drives me crazy about sales, the
negativity on sales.
It usually comes from folksthat aren't sales people.
Yeah, right, but there's god.
Here goes back to the badmeeting thing.
But if I was when I used to goout and solicit directly in
companies and I'd come back andI'd talk to whoever else on my
team and they're like, did youget a hold of the president?
No, he was in a meeting.

(48:18):
Well, what did you do all day?
I mean, why do you keep tryingto go back there?
I'm like man, I've just builtrelationship with the lady at
the front desk or the dude atthe front desk, exactly Like I
talked to them today.
Yeah, I'm going to go backagain next week and I'm going to
know this person now.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Right, and then I'm going to talk to another person.
I'm going to write their namedown, so I remember it.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
I encircle the Exactly.
I don't just go after thedecision maker, because you have
influencers.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
It's the same thing with champions.
If I want to deal with acompany, I may go contact the
CEO and the chairman.
I mean, I might connect withthem, but I'm going to go with
some of the other people too.
I want them all, all of them,baby.
Oh yeah, we know who that guyis.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
Yes, that's right.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
Do you have a genuine desire just to build
relationships and connectingwith people?
It cares just as much to me ifthe front desk person believes
in our company as much as thefreaking president, of course
100%, because they'll make youor break you.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Yeah, they all talk, they're the gatekeeper.

Speaker 3 (49:21):
It's the same principle If, whenever I have
that great meeting, I walk out,walk out, everything seemed
great, but then they go talkinternally.
But if they talk internallylike, oh man, yeah, eric's come
by a few times, I mean he'salways been super polite, super
respectful smile on his faceyeah, it's a jerk.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
He acted like he didn't even want to talk to me
yeah disregarding insult.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
Yeah, like they won't say that to the boss.
Those, those are like I don'tlike them.
Yeah, I don't know.
I just don't trust them.
That's all they know.
But if you genuinely want tomeet that person and you do care
about them as a human being, Imean it's just look, man.
I mean, business is anextension of living, right.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
And it's like it's well.
That's why we keep sayingwork-life integration.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
Exactly it's got to be seamless and I look at my
friend circles.
All my friends are people.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
I work with.
Oh, I know that's the way minewere for years too.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
I get it Like I don't have like these are the people.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
I spend my time with, and it's not transactional,
it's just what it turns into.
Yeah, because that's who youspend time with.
That I mean, uh, you know, Ialways felt like one of my most
effective selling techniques wasjust calling people up and
talking to them with no, noambition.
I had no does, I'm not tryingto sell them anything.

(50:41):
And I it came back to me somany times with some of my best
old clients say you know what Iliked about you mark?
You call me up when you didn'thave mean anything for me.

Speaker 3 (50:52):
I wasn't transactional, yeah okay that
they feel it.
Oh, and the second they do,they become transactional, you
know, but they got.
It goes back to your point,like, if you go, you know, like
you're building this networkthere and sometimes, like you
may not like, if you go to theseevents, like when you show up
to these events, you don't go upthere to sell, no, I just go up

(51:15):
there to connect, exactly, andI go up there to build
friendships and relationships.
Yes, and a sales cycle my bestdeals.
It took five, ten years to sellRight, if I was trying to sell
them.
I mean, that's what happens toa lot of companies when they
come into a new area they don'trealize the power of the
community being embedded, beingtrusted.
It takes time, it just takestime, to build that.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
I always use the example.
I say when we were growingZweig White that's now Zweig
Group every two really, it wasjust like two or three times a
year I would have companies likebig companies.
Two people come to see me, fromMcKinsey, for example, and go

(51:59):
you know what we wanted to learn, like you know, just talk with
you and acquaint ourselves.
We're not going to compete withyou guys in this market space.
We're only going after the top10 clients.
We don't have any interest.
You guys work with all theseother people.
We have no interest in that.
We only want to do and I'd belike, okay, in two years you
guys are gonna be gone, okay, um, because they aren't doing the

(52:23):
legwork that it takes to clawyour way up through this thing.
Yep, it's just like selling andgetting big client relationships
or big customer relationships.
It's kind of like crawling yourway up the real estate ladder.
I don't start out and buy myfirst mansion.
Yeah, I buy the cheapest thingI can afford that I can spend

(52:48):
money and time on and turn itand turn it and build it, and
then claw my way up to the nextone it's a little bit better and
then claw my way up to the nextone.
It's a little bit better.
It's kind of like that inselling.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
Totally Like if you're wanting to work with the
biggest brand or biggestretailer in the world, like you,
just you don't start a companyand just start working with them
.
You don't want to do that.
And you look at these okay, youprobably wouldn't be very good
if you did that.
You'd crush you.
Like you would probably fail.
Yeah, but like you look atthese other companies like, well
, how do they get that?
They're not doing, theircapabilities aren't different.

(53:20):
Well, it's you.
You got to remember thosepeople, those companies.
You've usually been in thebusiness for 20 years.
They've worked their way upthere and you're just over there
, jelly, wanting to have theirbusiness, but you haven't earned
the stripes, you haven't workedthrough it and built up to that
.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
Yeah, that is so true , it takes time.
That's one other thought,though, I just want to throw out
there.
For those of you who areworking in a company and you
think you want to start your ownbusiness someday, okay, it
maybe is part of the sameindustry that you're in, but
doing something maybe the samething the company you work for
is doing, or maybe doingsomething that's tangential to

(53:58):
that for the same market.
That's a good way to learn.
Yeah, learn the industry, don'tjust learn your little piece of
it.
That's right.
Be knowledgeable about what'sgoing on in the overall industry
.
You'll have a lot morecredibility, and if you work in
one of these other companies,you'll also maybe learn, like,

(54:19):
some of the things that madethem successful.
Yeah, okay, that wouldn't hurteither.
That wasn't accidental, it'spart of your education.
I guess is what I'm saying.
If you got an interest in anindustry you want to have a
business, go to work for one ofthese other companies someday
that's bigger, and add value tothem, then build their business.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
That's business karma .
It's real as hell, no kidding.
You go in, and you I've seenthis happen with some
entrepreneurs too.
They go in, they work for acompany, they help build that
company.
Oh yeah, bring it to biggerheights, and then they go off
and do their own.
And now they have this respect,exactly this karma that follows
them into their next.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Yeah, the reputation is established.
Everybody wants to support goodpeople.
Yeah, this isn't complicated.
So one last thing I want totalk about is closing.
I mean, and you know, if youever saw the Glenn Gary, glenn
Ross, which?
is now on Broadway, by the way,a new remake of it.
Yeah, okay, abc, you know,always be closing Alec Baldwin.

(55:21):
There's a lot of truth to that.
Now we are being bombarded inour neighborhood right now by
door to door salespeople and,yes, it's infuriating.
Okay, there's a dude that ridesaround on a Segway that's
trying to sell pest controlservices.
Yeah, They've got all theseyoung people, like young, you
know, clean, cut looking people,girls and guys are trying to

(55:45):
sell pest control.
That's the big thing.
Yeah, my next door neighborsaid a girl came to his house.
He texted me because they're ontheir way to your house.
She was on a skateboard andshe's selling pest control.
I said so I already had the pestcontrol girl come up my
driveway.
I'm sitting on my front porch.
Okay, she starts walking up mydriveway.
I'm like, how can I help you?

(56:07):
Yeah, I'm here to sellpescadero.
We're working in your name.
I go, I'm not interested.
She goes, I'd like to just giveyou a proposal, just the same.
I'm not interested, we'll beglad to give you a price.
I'm not in her.
She was absolutely ignoringeverything I said and you know
what I thought to myself.
A lot of people wouldn't be astough and direct as I was.

(56:28):
The fact that she didn't giveup until three times tells me
that she's probably been welltrained 100%.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
That resiliency, you know Just not listening to?

Speaker 1 (56:42):
no, okay, and you know what I'll bet if I was like
my 70 year old neighbor whoended up hiring them?
All right, just give in.
They just give in.
Yeah, okay, give me a price onthat you know.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
I mean, sometimes it works.
I think it depends on whatyou're, what you're selling,
which you know, who your buyersare, I mean.
But a lot of times, and as anentrepreneur like you're, you're
selling a service and you know,and you, there's better ways to
cope about it.
But there are tactics that arevery good and that's a whole
nother world.
That's why, when we startedthis conversation, I'm like

(57:18):
sales is such a big industrylike it is, it doesn't get the
credit it deserves.
People think you just you'reeither a salesperson or you're
not.
No, there's so many tactics youcan learn Right, so many
processes.
There is a science as we said,science and it can take decades.
There's a lot of knowledge toget it all.
Yeah, I've met.
There's a couple of salespeoplethat I've met in my life that

(57:40):
I'm like they're the best, Ihear you.
There's one cat and I mean it'sjust like dude, this, this,
this dude, just like breathesnumbers.
I mean all he thinks about ishow many calls, how many
opportunities in the pipeline,what's the audience?
And just, he's just sorelentless.
Yes, and quantitative, yes,it's all numbers.

(58:03):
But that's what he chomps,that's what he, he understands,
he understands the relationship.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
He's badass, right, of course he does.
He can't be touched.
I I'll never forget I always.
You know I've worked with a lotof real estate people and one
you know here who's really great, particularly a great
negotiator.
But I think back.
I I had another experience whenI first moved to memphis.
I was looking for a house.

(58:32):
Cry like was the big realtor inmemphis.
Well, you're from jonesboro,you know they were probably
there too, yeah, and so I, I get.
My boss says you got to talkwith this guy, erwin astro was
his name.
So erwin astro comes to ourrental apartment and interviews
my wife and I, comes to ourrental apartment and interviews
my wife and I.
He spends an hour and a half,okay, interviewing us.
I swear, every question youcould think of and he goes.

(58:54):
Okay, he goes now, on Friday orwhatever.
I'm going to be back and I'mgoing to have a list of houses
that we need to look at.
So, sure enough, he comes back.
He's got this list of houses.
He goes.
This one right here is the is,I think, is number one on the
list.
We go, look at it, okay, andwe're like I don't know.
Well, we look at the other fiveand we got done, and guess
which one?

(59:14):
We bought the first one, thefirst one.
He was absolutely right.
He knew exactly what we neededfor what we could afford.
That's kind of needs assessment.
He was number one at cry likeat the time because there was a
reason and he cared and he askedthe right questions.
He lived what he said.
He was going to do everything.
Everything well, well done.

(59:35):
He was the archetypal sales guy.
Perfect my mind.
Yeah, wasn't a glib fast talkerat all.
Yeah, it didn't talk that much,but he just knew he's
delivering what we want.

Speaker 3 (59:47):
He had that pattern and he had this pattern, this
process to yes to do, to delivera good value.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Yeah, good chat mark oh, we could talk more about
this.

Speaker 3 (59:57):
I think there's a lot to this subject yeah, it'd be
cool to get and get a couple ofreally good sales people to come
in and talk about, because Ithink business owners, you can
always learn more.
Yeah, things about sales.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Yeah, I think I think it would be very good.
All right, well been fun.
Yeah, it's been.
This has been another episodeof big talk about small business
.
See ya, check yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Business.
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