June 18, 2025 • 53 mins
Have you ever felt completely alone in your business struggles with nowhere to turn? That suffocating feeling where you can't share your fears with your spouse without alarming them, can't reveal vulnerabilities to employees who need confidence in your leadership, and hesitate to approach mentors fearing judgment?
In this illuminating conversation with Ben Cashion, CEO coach and strategist, we dive deep into the hidden psychological burdens of entrepreneurship and how the right outside perspective can be transformative. Ben brings a uniquely powerful combination to his coaching practice: extensive experience across four startups and scaling companies, plus seven years as a licensed professional counselor conducting over 5,000 hours of therapy sessions.
We explore the dangerous terrain of business partnerships. He identifies the two primary partnership killers that every business owner should watch for: disengagement and vision drift. These insidious problems can slowly tear apart even the most promising business relationships, sometimes with consequences more devastating than personal divorces.
The discussion takes a fascinating turn when we examine what makes an effective coach versus a consultant, and how quality coaching delivers four essential elements: "useful strategy, outside perspective, measured accountability, and energizing hope." Ben pulls no punches about the coaching industry itself, acknowledging that many who hang out a coaching shingle lack the necessary experience and training to deliver meaningful results.
For small business owners contemplating their future, Ben offers profound wisdom on whether it's truly possible to build a business that remains small yet highly profitable over decades. His insights on intentional business design, including a surprising "catch and release talent strategy," challenge conventional thinking about growth and retention.
Whether you're considering taking the entrepreneurial leap, struggling with partnership challenges, or feeling the weight of leadership isolation, this conversation delivers both practical strategies and the comforting reminder that you're not alone on this journey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I mean.
A lot of times two people gettogether because they are like
each other, which makes for theworst kinds of partners.
You know you need to havedifferent skills and orientation
typically to work well together, so you're not in each other's
territory.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Well, let's just be honest.
When you're sitting at thebeginning and the risk is
through the roof, it feels niceto have somebody else in the
boat.
Sure, I guess.
It's comforting to go.
If this thing sinks, he orshe's sinking too, and I'm not
alone.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
All right, we better get started.
Let's do this.
We don't want to waste any timeof our listeners.
And today, here in the studio,eric and I have a guest, and
that's ben cash.
And how's it going, ben?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
it's going great.
I'm excited to be here, uh anduh excited to be on the show
with you guys we're glad you'rehere.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Hopefully you'll feel the same way when it's over no,
we'll see, we'll see.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
I'm a little nervous after the pregame, so here we go
as you should be.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, uh, now being yeah, being nervous and paranoid
keeps you out of trouble.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
That's right.
We always give ourselves atleast 45 minutes to see if we
ruin a relationship.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, there you go.
That's good, that's good, weenjoy it.
But no, we're glad you're hereand this is another episode of
Big Talk.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Small Business, and so at the end end, then you have
to join us for the couch roll.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah it's, I can do this.
Okay, cool it's, it's a, it'sessential I'm still here.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I'll do it if I haven't left that's a good point
.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
I'll do it.
That is a good point all right,so kicked out oh gosh, I tell
you, um.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So we've got a lot to cover today, though, wouldn't
we do?
Do we have a spotlight that wecan use to focus on him as we
begin our authentication?
Speaker 4 (01:51):
That's right.
Yeah, we can do that in editing, no problem.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
All right, good, no, ben, tell us a little bit about
yourself.
I know you're in the coachingbusiness.
Tell us more, yeah.
So CEO coach and strategistwhich is a really awkward title
like at a cocktail party whenpeople are like I'm a banker or
I'm a real estate agent and I'mlike I'm a CEO coach, it doesn't
really roll off the tonguesuper well, but it actually
makes more sense if I give youjust a quick bit on my
background.
So I always tell people no onewould ever do on purpose the
career that I've done onaccident.
I've been a part of fourdifferent startups, a couple of
(02:30):
different scaling companies andspent, you know, probably two
thirds of my career in themarketplace.
But in the middle I had abizarre and wonderful experience
for about seven years as alicensed professional counselor.
That was part of myentrepreneurial journey, was
actually founded a counselingclinic.
So psychology, yeah, I was alicensed professional counselor
(02:53):
technically, but that stuff'sall pretty similar buckets,
gotcha, gotcha.
So what I do today is incoaching is really a nice coming
together, uh, my marketplaceexperience and my time, uh as as
a counselor, uh, which is long,long in the rear view, um, but
certainly skills that that Istill lean into today.
(03:14):
So what type of counseling?
Speaker 4 (03:16):
was that yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, yeah.
So, um, really saw two thingsprimarily.
Uh, one was professional men.
Now, this was this was back inlike 20, 2010,.
All the way through 2016.
Um, and so really, counselingwas a different world back then,
um, but so a lot ofprofessional men.
There weren't many malecounselors back then, uh, and,
(03:39):
and men typically wanted to seea male counselor, and so I saw a
lot of professional men andthen I did a lot of marriage
therapy.
Okay, and what was great aboutthat is over six years, seven
years, I did around 5,000 hoursof therapy.
Wow, and just the skills thatyou build, doing something that
much, and really was the firsttime I sat in the seat of
(04:02):
outside perspective, which isthe same seat I sit in with CEOs
and founders today but reallydeveloped those muscles, really
discovered how I can best youknow, with my unique skill set,
personality, whatever how I canbest sit in the seat of outside
perspective and really learned aton in counseling and really
(04:24):
thankful for uh, uh, and reallythankful for the experience.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
It was also just, it was a lot, and when it was time
to move on, it was very time tomove on Well you probably ended
your day just hearing aboutother people's problems and
considering I mean, I mean, notthat that's a bad thing, but I
mean.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
But you gotta be uniquely wired through that for
a long time.
Um and and you know, I learneda ton.
I don't have any regrets aboutdoing it, but also knew when
that season was coming to aclose.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I think the question, though, that all our listeners
are going to want to know theanswer to is how many times have
you been married?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Once for 20 years and still presently.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Yeah, man, I love you .
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That's a success.
I know you probably learned atremendous amount about just
like how to deal with your ownrelationship.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Oh yeah, but my wife doesn't put up with any crap
from me, Like she doesn't saythis anymore, but she used to
literally say don't you bringyour therapy stuff on me.
That's right.
I don't want it.
That's right.
I don't want, that's right.
You keep that out of herethat's unusual.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Most spouses want to bring the therapy stuff on and
we're like, no, don't bother usat certain phases when they get
past that, that's, they justgave up.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Yeah, yeah, that's bad, that's when you, that's a
good big bread.
We have experience in thatdepartment couple times.
Some of us three, four, yeah,three, okay, sorry it's third
times.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
The charm got it, got it, but uh.
So that is interesting, thoughI'm sure, and especially like
partnerships.
A lot of times in businesses,whether they're organized as
partnerships or corporations orllc's that yeah the one owner.
It's like being married tosomebody isn't it absolutely?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
um, uh, those, those I you know I'll have
conversations all the time, guys, with people who it's like
being married to somebody, isn'tit Absolutely?
I'll have conversations all thetime, guys, with people who want
to become a coach, because theyare either in a pastoral role,
they are a counselor or apsychologist, and they're like I
think I want to get intocoaching and I and I tell them
(06:24):
all the same thing, which is theskillset you've built will
translate, but it's going to siton top of a completely
different piece of context andyou better learn that content
because you might do a littlebit of coaching here or there,
because you've got some skillsyou've built.
Um, that that can, that, thatyou can take and give folks
(06:46):
under the name of leadership orwhatever.
But you better learn theircontext and you better get
really serious about learningthat context.
Like, if you don't want tostart reading books and reading
articles and getting into theHBR and reading the Wall Street
Journal or whatever your sourceis, then don't think you can
become a coach, because you gotto learn the context, your
skills, don't think you canbecome a coach.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Because you got to learn the context, your skills.
Don't get to just come overhere and sit, yeah, just
constantly growing and learning.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
That's right, yourself right.
And I mean you know, and Ithink it's.
I like the whole counselingthing just because I think that
everything in business is aboutrelations.
I mean it's about how do youhandle your relationship, how do
you you know, how do you you'llcome across, how do you not
offend?
How do you offend?
How do you be direct?
I mean there's just so muchemotion nestled within every
(07:33):
business decision that I thinkit's important that, especially
for our listeners, right, thatare your thing about jumping
into a business, starting one oryou're trying to grow one, it
comes down to that relationalfactor, I mean everywhere.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
I had a guy ask me a year ago.
He was starting a business andhe had been talking to another
guy about partnering to start itand he said, should I take on a
part?
And I was like, maybe, like,maybe that could be a great
thing or maybe it could be acomplete train wreck.
Exactly, and he was like what'sthe point?
My mentor's telling me that Ireally should, and I was like,
well, he might end up beingright, or it might end up
(08:12):
costing you thousands of dollarsand years of your life, and I
mean let's stay in that for asecond, because I was telling
somebody just not even a weekago about I have been blessed
with great partners.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
I mean I really have like, but I've I've seen with my
other peers in the businesscommunity that that's not the
case with everybody.
Actually, it's kind of a uniqueexperience because I have seen
some partnerships that have beenabsolutely devastating, even
more devastating than divorces.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, well, I mean, it's a.
We see it all the time.
I mean, a lot of times twopeople get together because they
are like each other, which ismakes for the worst kinds of
partners.
You know you need to havedifferent skills and orientation
typically to work well together, so you're not, yeah, in each
other's territory well, let'sjust be honest.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
When you're sitting at the beginning and the risk is
through the roof, it feels niceto have somebody else in the
boat.
Sure, it's comforting to go.
If this thing sinks, he orshe's sinking too, and I'm not
alone, you know like so thatthat, that feels good, but
you're trading a lot for that,for that early on.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Well, and there's a lot of when you're trading a lot
for that, for that early on.
Well, there's a lot of whenyou're sitting the boat with all
that risk and one of you youknow the goal would be is that
the other person is as investedas you are fills a rack against
the wall.
Are going to fight like hellyeah, they're at the same time
and attention they're notlooking eight to five, they're
not talking about the nextvacation and all this kind of
(09:43):
stuff.
They're engaged.
But the problem happens whenthat other person starts getting
discouraged, becoming depressed, starts isolating, distracted
for any reason.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just tired,exhausted, worn out.
They're not.
They're not on the, they're noton the battlefield with you
more.
That's devastation.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yep, the two things that I see in partnerships uh
and I don't work with a ton ofpartnerships, so I'm not trying
to position myself as anabsolute expert here, but I've
had partners and I've workedwith some partners the two
things that I see the mostnumber one is exactly what you
just said, which is somebodyretreats a little bit and
they're just being worn downwhatever Sure man, life happens,
(10:21):
yeah that can happen.
Yeah, number two, though, isvision drift.
I see so much vision drift thatjust seeds this.
You know it starts off hereLike we're going, we're rowing
in the same direction, we wantto do the same thing, but we get
seven years into the businessand all of a sudden we're in a
new season.
(10:41):
We got some people working forus, we got some opportunities
that maybe we didn't have, andall of a sudden, this partner
wants to go that way and thispersonal partner wants to go
that way.
Well, it's not very big at first, but, man, as time goes and
then you look up all of a suddenand you're yelling at each
other and you're arguing witheach other and you're going we
need to do this, and the otherpartner, we need to do this, and
(11:01):
it's vision driven.
Yeah, and and what?
Both visions might be viable,they might be good, they might
be profitable, but if they'redifferent, it's it.
It will really, really wreckthat partnership over time.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
You know how do you mitigate that or how do you
navigate that vision, because Imean, if you see that real early
on, I mean the optimal thing isto catch it really soon.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Right, just like in a marriage, right.
If you start splitting a littlebit, how do you bring that back
in?
I mean, one thing I think aboutis just go have more time
together as partners, right.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Absolutely.
And you've got to fight likehell for alignment.
You've got to fight foralignment and over and, over and
over again.
And the problem is the first 90percent of alignment I'm making
up a statistic here, by the way,guys, the first, we're all
about that anecdotal we got itfine, no, first 90 percent of
(11:58):
alignment is typically prettyeasy, like it's like okay, well,
we make water and we sell waterat gas stations, and this is
our consumer.
And it's like okay, well, wemake water and we sell water at
gas stations and this is ourconsumer.
And it's like, okay, yeah,great, we got it.
Well, there's this last 10 ofalignment, where, where things
get a little bit more into focusand we have to make some real
decisions, that is really reallyhard and it's so easy to leave
(12:21):
that last 10% undone.
And that's the 10% that growsand grows and grows over time,
makes total sense.
And so you have to, you have toreally really fight for that,
that full level of alignment.
And and you need you you have toactively fish for, for
misalignment, like you.
You need to like, if you'redoing, if you have a semi-annual
(12:42):
partnership retreat which is agreat idea, by the way of some
sort Okay, you need to.
You need to not just say are wealigned?
Yeah, okay, great, we'realigned.
You need to go let's.
We need to like spend 15minutes brainstorming places
we're not aligned, likespecifically looking for places
we're not aligned.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
I like that.
That's good.
I want to go back to one thing,though, if we can Back on this
coaching thing and you're sayingpeople need to understand the
context.
I mean, I'll be honest with youthat I feel very skeptical of
most coaches.
You should.
Most of them have been throughsome kind of training class.
(13:19):
I know one individual, forexample, who's a quote life
coach.
Yeah, I know one individual,for example who's?
a quote life coach yeah, andthis person has had a series of
failed relationships throughtheir entire life.
Yeah, they've never built anykind of a career success.
Yeah, okay.
And now, at whatever age let'ssay you know advanced age
(13:41):
they've become a life coach andthey're going to go out there
and tell me how to live my lifeor how to be more successful in
business.
Get real, yeah.
I mean, I think a lot ofbusiness owners feel like if the
coach hasn't been as successfulas they have been in business,
they don't have any credibilitywith them.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, what do you think I think it's a great
question?
They don't have any credibilitywith them.
Yeah, what do you think I thinkit's a great question?
I'm going to maybe nuance alittle bit my answer.
So level one is I completelyagree, like there are.
I'm telling you guys, I getcalls every single week of
people who want to becomecoaches.
I believe that In themarketplace, sure and done big
(14:24):
work, you haven't done sevenyears as become coaches.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I believe that Sure and done and done, big work
Haven't done seven years as atherapist.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
That's right.
Yeah.
Sat on a leadership team yeah,right, and start a business that
grew from 25 million to 150million in five years.
Exactly, yeah or persist.
Participated in four startups,so yes, I agree so like yes,
it's, it's real.
(14:48):
We just eliminated 98% of themright there, 99%, I will say
there are some really goodcoaches who, who don't have the
experience you would expect.
I mean, you know, like I've gota, I've got a coach or I've got
a CEO in my portfolio.
Right now we're a year and ahalf in to a to a year long
engagement, okay, so we extended.
Yeah, he's a happy client, sure, okay, and, and he is running a
(15:10):
$750 million business in LosAngeles, california, that is
backed by private equity money.
I've never done that, yeah,sure, I haven't done that.
So here's my nuance to that yes, the experience matters and you
got to have it, you, you got tohave some level of it.
But there's also this level of,like, serious training and and
(15:31):
really getting into the scienceand art of being a coach, where
I can sit down with him and andI haven't sat in his seat, but I
can prove to him that I'vedeveloped enough skills as a
coach to be the coach that comesalong, the guy that's sitting
in that seat, and there is someskill.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
No, I believe that I mean I've been a management
consultant since 1980, and I'veworked with CEOs and founders,
architecture and engineeringfirms all over.
Certainly, some of them weremuch bigger than my own company
yes, that's right.
So I believe that you can makethat Absolutely, yep, and if you
have credibility andsensibility.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yep, yep, but you have to.
That's only for the coachesthat are taking really serious
the work.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
I got another question for you, though.
What's the difference in?
Well, I think I know what'ssort of conventional wisdom is
about the difference in a coachversus a consultant.
You know, the consultant tellsyou what to do.
The coach is supposed to likepull it out of you.
Is that your thought process orno?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
I hear that exact line pretty often yeah, I don't
love it, I don't either.
So here's how I would describeit, like if you are, if you're
running, if you're the CEO of ahospital system, or let me pick
a more relevant example for ouraudience today If you're the CEO
(17:04):
of a $25 million home servicescompany, right, sure, and you're
going.
You know what.
I need help on thisindustry-specific topic?
Go, get a consultant.
That's what a consultant does.
If you're like I've got thisreally hyper-specific,
industry-level problem that Ican't solve HVAC marketing,
(17:26):
that's right.
Yeah, like, go, I'm justthrowing that out there.
I don't want to help you withthat, so don't call if that's
what you mean Don't call, I gotit.
But you know I don't think thata really good coach is just
pulling answers out at you.
Thank, you.
(17:46):
We just pulling answers out inyou.
Thank you, we say all the time.
There's four things that weprovide for every client
engagement.
Number one is useful strategy,outside perspective, measured
accountability and energizinghope.
That's our four.
We're doing those.
Useful strategy and outsideperspective you better believe I
am bringing.
I am bringing some ideas, somebest practices, some fresh
(18:08):
thinking to the table, andthat's going to be on strategic
topics, that's going to be on um, that's going to be on
leadership topics.
That's going to be on thingsabout your P and L, like we're
we're getting shared, so um,there are times where I'm going
to let some space sit and letsome, you know, let a client do
(18:32):
a little bit of self-discovery,but there are also times when
I'm going to come straight inand be like this is a mistake,
you need to go do this, go dothis.
And that art whether we'retalking about, you know, small
business owners who are managingand leading others, or a coach
who's working with a client thatart of knowing when to lean in
and when to lean out is, is abig, big part of the coaching
(18:57):
posture and leadership postureas well, like knowing when to go
.
Hey, I'm just going to bedirective here and everybody
needs to, needs to hear yeah orhey, I'm going to, I'm going to
let some of the more open spaceplay.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
So I want to put it in kind of a really practical
scenario from my experience andthis is a good dialogue, because
I've never really looked into acoach or consultants.
I've experienced consultants butI've never really looked into a
coach but there are a lot oftimes as a business owner that
I'm like who do I trust?
Yeah, cause, everyone aroundyou, their, their opinion, is
(19:31):
what I mean, not like them as aperson, but as their opinion,
their advice or direction, andit's there's a lot of times as
an entrepreneur, I feel veryisolated and like does anybody
have a motive to give me ananswer?
That's, that's objective andfor the good of the business?
Yep, is that what I'm kind oflooking at with a coach?
(19:54):
Is somebody that's that's inthat, that is in my circle of
basically trusting that.
The advice that I get, or adirective or and what I liked
about what you said just asecond ago is don't do this, do
this, because that's for thegood of the whole versus the
(20:15):
good of of any one person I mean, is that, is that a good way to
kind of put that?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, I, I, I think so.
Now, now look, even even us,you know, sure, motive coaches
are, are, are sending an invoiceat the end of the month, so our
motives are not completely pure, uh, but, but no doubt, I, I, I
think one of the things that'sreally really important there,
um, yes, it is unbelievable.
(20:41):
The isolating weight in afounder or a CEO at any level of
businesses is, uh, is feeling,I mean, I, I tell people, all
the time we, we talk about anorg chart just comes down like
this, don't forget, a lot oftimes it also goes up to an
ownership group or a board,right, and the pitch point it's
either the pinnacle or the pitchpoint Every single time is that
(21:05):
founder or CEO who's leading?
Speaker 1 (21:08):
And I think another not to interrupt you, but I
think just in support of whatyou're saying even if you don't
have outside owners of whichI've had companies where I was
the majority owner and otherowners and I started it and
didn't have any private equityor anything you still feel like
you're not, it's not all yours.
I mean, you've got all theseother partners.
(21:31):
You got to please them.
If you don't, they leave orthey have an insurrection,
that's right.
You've got customers or clientsout there.
You got to take care of themand you got your employees out
there, which you know they allhave free will too.
So it's like nobody can justoperate with impunity.
That's right.
If you're smart man, I tell youlike here's what's.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
You know, there was a period in my career's number of
years ago to where, like, I wasfacing such like literally I
tell people for a six monthperiod on a daily basis.
I was facing such likeliterally, I tell people for a
six-month period on a dailybasis.
I was facing life and deathdecisions of the business.
Every day there was somethingcoming up.
I mean I had culture drainingbut yet at the same time,
(22:18):
invigorating.
I had really great folks andreally bad folks.
I was making massive decisionsabout the direction of the
company.
I had no partner.
I had, I mean, like it was and,by the way, I didn't the cash
wasn't working, the revenuewasn't coming in, you know, or
I'd have a big job, have toexecute it.
I mean, there was just so muchgoing on this period and I
(22:40):
remember like going, I don'thave anyone to talk to.
Yeah, you know, that does itlike.
If you talk to your spouse, youscare the shit out of your
spouse.
Yep, right.
If you talk to your employees,it just further exasperates the
freaking, the you know thenegative culture and all the
fears of everybody like abouttheir jobs and when really
everybody needs to come together, put the ship and go, you know,
(23:02):
and that's all I was trying todo.
It it wasn't.
I mean, I didn't, I had lost anyhope of my own personal income
and financial security, likethat was on the complete break,
like I was riding on the edge,you know.
And then, of course, you havereputation and all these things.
You know, I mean there's justlike failure staring at you in
the face, right, and, and Ithink that that that that period
(23:24):
, and when I've talked to otherentrepreneurs, they have lived
that, right, and you, you're inthis dark area of who do you
talk to?
Yeah, you know, because you.
It's almost like you can't eventalk to mentors.
I couldn't call mark because,mark, when you look down on me
and pass judgment on you, yeah,you would pass total judgment on
me, right, but I mean, but's,that may not be truth, right,
(23:46):
but that is how you feel in thatmoment.
Yeah, yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
You know part of the for for me, founders, no doubt
it's an isolating space.
No one in their worldunderstands all the different
aspects of family financialsdecisions managing down.
Oh, by the way, trying tomanage myself a little bit too,
(24:13):
to make sure I don't drive thisship off the fence.
Yeah 100% With coaching.
But the problem with coachingis you can't pay somebody a
monthly retainer to just come inand be the person that you can
be Like.
They've also got to drive valuefor the business.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
A great coach has got to do both of those things.
They've got to be able to comein and actually be helpful to
drive bottom line value for thebusiness and come in and be that
person that goes hey, I'm nottrying to say I know exactly
what it's like to be you, but Iwould imagine that when you
tapped that line of credit tomake payroll this month because
you're waiting on that biginvoice to be paid, and oh, by
(24:52):
the way, that line of creditsecured against your house and
your, your spouse may kill youif she knows that you've tapped
it again Like, and your, yourspouse may kill you if she knows
that you've tapped it again.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Like yeah, okay, like you get some credibility with
that's where you bridge that gapyou were talking about.
Absolutely yeah, I get it.
I mean I, that makes totalsense that's good dialogue you
know I I don't want to gosidetrack too much, but I was a
a leader of one of these groupsof business people who get
(25:24):
together.
I won't name the brand yeah okay, and it was all you know, and I
think there were some reallygood aspects of it.
Yeah, meaning, so somebody likeeric is talking about like,
who's he going to go to whenyou've got like eight or ten or
twelve other business ownerstogether at a table and they
have no vested interest in yourbusiness whatsoever, they can
(25:48):
sort of function as your boardand catharsis you know cathartic
experience sharing yourproblems with them.
You know that they also have.
But at the same time, you knowthere were other aspects of
those groups that I think arereally bad.
(26:09):
Yeah, um, like they're alwaystrying to sell their members
something.
Yeah, okay, there's always aprogram they want you to sign
them up for.
There's always, um, an outsidespeaker who's got something that
they're selling, yeah, and andthat's a real negative.
So you know, but I I will saythat a lot of people who are in
those groups, they would go backand forth between being part of
(26:33):
a group, having a coach yeah,doing that for a while, then
going back to a group, doingthat for two while, then going
back to a group, doing that fortwo or three years, again back
to a coach.
Do you see that?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I say this with fondness,
not judgment.
Some people are just arecontent junkies.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yes, they are.
Some people are just like, Icall them management junkies,
but yeah, yeah, like they.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Just they gotta have.
You know, they read the newbook and they got to implement
that strategy in their business.
And they met a guy at theirVistage group and they got to
implement the EOS is the saviorof every single thing Of the
entire world.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, exactly, I know .
No doubt Drives me insane.
Yeah, yeah, I know exactly whatyou're saying.
And so it's like one out of 10.
If there's 10 owners in thecompany, one of them is going to
be one of those jobs.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
And, by the way, if you've ever worked for one of
those people before, it isprofessional whiplash.
Oh yeah, Because you're goingthis way and then they read the
new book You're swimming with onthe bus and then you got a blue
(27:48):
oceans whatever.
But then you know we also have,uh, on the other end of that,
one minute managing, we've got,we've got the we've got the
maverick who's never let meanybody into the circle.
Yeah, like that's the other endof that spectrum yeah, I'm over
here and I'm gonna do my thingand what like whatever happens
is gonna happen, and I'mcharging the dadgum hill and you
guys better be coming with me.
So there is another end of thatspectrum too.
But yeah, I mean, we see peoplemove in and out of that.
Look, I am extremely fortunateto be a few years into my
(28:14):
practice where I'm not beggingfor clients anymore, like I'm
not scraping the barrel lookingfor clients anymore and and I'm
really it it it becomes thisreally weird momentum thing
happens in coaching when all ofa sudden you can be a little
more selective of your clientand go this person needs help.
They know they need help and Ican actually be the one that
(28:37):
could help them.
Now, all of a sudden we'vesudden there's some serious
momentum happening here wherethey're going to have a better
experience, I'm going to havemore confidence, I'm going to
deliver more value, like a lotof good can happen there, and so
you know that's a nice place tobe as a coach, where I'm
(28:57):
seeking out clients that I knowI can help.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Sure.
So, bing, can you give us some,I mean for the listeners, right
, like I mean, you've got anentrepreneur that's listening to
this.
What are some of the valuesfrom a coach standpoint?
Right, and you said the goodanalogy about consulting.
You know, from a consultingarrangement, very isolated, very
niche, very specific task.
But if they have greater needs,I mean what, what are some like
(29:23):
, uh, some examples, tacticalexamples that you could give so
that they could say, oh, Iactually might need a coach?
I mean it's enlightening for metoo.
I mean, hell, I don't know if Ineed a coach, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Um, so there's a lot I mean we help, we, we we work
on.
Let me give a little bit ofoverview of how, please let me
answer that question.
So we try to isolate five to 10really specific things that a
client wants help with.
So that might be somethingstrategic in the business, it
might be something with the P&L,it might be leadership,
(29:57):
management, management.
It might be like a long-rangevision or dream.
I want to sell my business or Iwant this to lifestyle for the
next three decades, whatever.
But we're going to isolate fiveto 10 things and then we're
going to work really, reallyhard on those things.
So because of that, we get intoa lot of different things.
(30:18):
We do not have cookie cutter.
It is not EOS.
Do not have cookie cutter it'sit is not EOS.
Or working genius Like ah, hereyou know, here, here's the
playbook, just go run that.
It's all real custom.
But I will give one thingparticularly relevant for for
your listeners Uh, when, when Italk to small business folks,
the number one thing that I'minterested in is do you have
(30:42):
line of sight to the businesscreating the outputs that you
actually want?
Now, I'm not saying you got tobe there today, like sometimes
the small business journey is adumpster fire and you got to go
through the dumpster fire, yeah,but like, do you have line of
sight?
Can you see, you know if, if?
(31:03):
Can you see the exit thatyou're chasing?
Like, is it real, is it outthere?
Or can you see the businessfunding the lifestyle that you
want to see?
Or can you see yourself?
I mean, you know time like thenumber one, not not the number
one thing, but something thatyou hear all the time as well.
(31:24):
We're just really busy right nowI'm like yeah, that's what
we've all been saying the last30 years, right?
So, like, if you're telling meyou actually want it, like it's
important that the business thatyou've put your entire
financial, uh, you know, uh,your all your money, all your
risk on the line, your identity,your identity, yeah, you
actually.
And you're telling me I want toown a business because
eventually, I want to get someof my time and flexibility back,
(31:46):
do you actually have line ofsight to that?
Like, is that a real potentialoutcome right now or not?
Yeah, and a lot of times, thereal answer to that is no.
I have a dream, but I don'tactually have a line of sight to
it, and so a lot of times, whatwe'll do, I don't actually have
a line of sight to it, and so alot of times, what we'll do,
particularly with small businessowners, is say here's current
state, here's where we are today.
(32:07):
Let's get really real about that.
Here's the P&L, here's the team.
Frank sucks.
I need to fire him.
I've known that for a year anda half, exactly, yeah, you know.
Whatever, whatever, like here'sthe, here's the, here's the
nitty-gritty of the presentstate.
Yes, and here's the actual like.
What is that?
Desired state yeah, yeah.
What is that future state?
And maybe it's three years away, maybe it's 10 years away, sure
(32:29):
, but like what is that desiredstate?
What?
Do we have line of sight to it?
Where we not, and if we don'thave line of sight, we better
get serious about creating somepathways to have that line of
sight.
Now, those lines of sight theymay go into strategic
initiatives.
They may go into a decision tokill one part of an offering and
start a new part of an offering.
(32:50):
They may have.
It may be I need to make a$200,000 investment so that I
can like whatever, but that'ssomething we see a lot of,
particularly with small businessowners.
Is is creating a lot inside thefuture state.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
It's interesting you know, you just said something I
think is interesting.
Um, you said whether your goalis to have this exit at some
point or to create a businessthat that funds a certain
lifestyle for a long time in thefuture.
I guess my experience is thatthe second one is extremely
(33:31):
difficult to do.
And what's the second?
The second one is build abusiness that funds a lifestyle
for 30 years into the futureJust cash flowing.
Yeah, for 30 years into thefuture, cash flowing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That that I think a lot ofpeople have that idea about
their business, their smallbusiness, that they're going to
start this thing, they're goingto get it to a certain point
where it makes a lot of money.
(33:52):
They're going to step back outof it.
It's just going to churn outmoney for them.
Okay, I think that is sounlikely and in fact, I think
it's a disservice to most peopleto allow them to think that
that's even a realisticpossibility.
Yeah, what do you think aboutthat?
Speaker 3 (34:14):
I think it's a really fair push because I think, look
, if we just surveyed a hundredsmall business owners in their
experience over the last decade,the number who have ended in
that state is going to beextremely small, yeah, yeah.
So I think it's a really reallyfair push.
I do think, look, it's neverthis clean, it's never this easy
(34:39):
.
Look, it's never this clean,it's never this easy.
But if you can go into thejourney and and know that that's
what you're aiming at and thatit influences a lot of early
decisions like, let's, let'stake a very, let's go back to
the partnership, right, if youwant a lifestyle, if you want
the business to to fund yourlifestyle, don't get a partner,
because now it's funding, it'sgot.
You just put a lot of pressureon the P&L.
(34:59):
It's got to fund two lifestyles, not one.
It's a lot easier to fund onelifestyle than two.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
And that's assuming that the partner is aligned to
that same exit plan.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
That's right, no doubt about it.
No doubt about it.
For a lack of exit plan, right,yeah, if you do have some
vision from the very, very earlystage and can influence
decisions as you go, it is a.
It is a uh ambition worth worthchasing.
Um, now, at the same time, I'veI've got a client right now
(35:32):
that's in home services.
He has a uh, it does.
They do about 12 million bucksof revenue a year, uh, and
they're doing profit around $1.5million.
So a really nice littlebusiness.
Sure, but consolidation ishappening in his industry like
crazy, sure, like crazy.
(35:53):
I mean, everybody is buying orbeing bought All this private
equity money chasing, bandingall these little companies
together, no doubt about it, andso his vision it's a family
business.
He's second generation, it'sbeen in the family for 30 years
and he's like I want it to fundour family for another 30 years.
And I looked at him a couplemonths ago and I said I don't
(36:13):
know that that's going to be anoption that's on the table for
you.
Yeah, because I don't know thatyou're going to be able to
exist as this independentorganization in an industry that
is getting consolidated likecrazy, and so sometimes you may
even set out and be one of thefew that does everything right
and still lose that opportunitynow if that happens.
So he's going to get a nicecheck and he'll be okay.
(36:35):
Like I'm not super worriedabout yeah, uh, but, but it
could be very real.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
This game makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
I'm, you know, I'm impressed, yeah well, I mean, I
think you know skeptical aboutcoaches, come dude, I am a
slight redemption of my mystery.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I'm slight, yeah, you see.
Well, you're not.
I mean, what you do reallyisn't much.
I mean, I hate to be the wordyou know, can I?
Speaker 3 (37:03):
speak to that real quick though.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
I should give a ton of credit to my mentor there.
So my mentor is a guy namedSteve Graves.
You guys have probably heard ofSteve.
He's a local guy.
Steve taught me to be a coachand that's a message for a lot
of great coaches is don't justgo hang your shingle Like you.
Get somebody that knows whatthe heck they're doing.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Who's been successful ?
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Who's been successful ?
Right, I agree, not only did Ihave some industry experience,
but, man, then I had a mentorwho taught me how to do it.
That's helpful, and I've madeplenty of mistakes, both in my
time in organizations and inbusinesses and even as a coach,
but having a mentor to kind ofpull me along has been really
(37:45):
helpful.
Speaker 5 (37:46):
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Speaker 1 (38:01):
I guess what I was going to say is I don't want to
split hairs over the terminology, but what you're doing in my
mind is the same thing that,let's say, I did as a management
consultant at a high level.
Yeah, I don't see muchdifference in it.
Yeah, call it whatever you want.
Yeah, sure, but obviously yougot to get into the people and
their motivations and what thedesired end state is and all
(38:26):
these things that you'vementioned.
And you know, I don't know whyit is that people don't like the
word consultant today.
I mean, it's like everyconsultant now is an advisory
yeah, yeah firm.
Okay, I, I mean it, just itdrives me crazy.
Consultant became a dirty wordat some point yeah, yeah but
anyway, back on though what wewere talking about with the
(38:48):
small business owners and all.
I mean, what do you think about?
I mean, is it viable to say wejust want to be small and highly
profitable as an organizationand go on like that for a long
time?
I mean, is that really viable?
I mean, is that really viable?
(39:10):
I guess I keep coming back tothis idea that who good wants to
work in that company?
If you told me that yourcompany is like Mark, you've
come to work for me as a young,highly motivated person, but
we're never going to have morethan eight or 10 people and I'll
never sell you the company.
I'm going to turn it over to mydaughter.
Why would I want to work there?
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Highly ambitious people are probably not applying
.
Why?
Speaker 1 (39:37):
would I want to work in that environment.
I mean, it just seems like alot of business owners.
They're so myopic and theycan't.
They want what they want andthey can't look at it more
objectively and say who's gonnawant to be part of this thing?
Yeah, do you ever give?
Speaker 3 (39:56):
that talk to people.
It's, it's a great question.
Um, I do, I do think it'spossible.
I do think that slice is reallyis is quite thin and takes an
extraordinary amount of strategyand discipline.
Let me give a small example,and this is like I'm kind of
shooting from the hip here.
Sure, it's okay, I mean, ifthis isn't full of flesh, it's
(40:18):
okay, our entire show yeah.
Perfect, that should be right.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
We shoot from the hip .
Speaker 3 (40:23):
My wife would tell you I'm best when shooting from
the hips when I aim that's right, it that thinks that's right.
Um, it's like show skeet, youlike that?
Yeah, yeah, that's a point,yeah.
So, going back to your exampleof of, uh, your business and and
the guy that doesn't want togrow it, he's going to pass it
to his daughter.
Look, this is an extremeexample, but like the type of
(40:46):
strategy it takes to makesomething like that, work is to
go.
So here's how I'm going toaccount for that in my business
plan.
I'm going to have a catch andrelease talent strategy and I,
instead of panicking when goodpeople leave, I'm going to
celebrate and even market thatthey left so that the next young
(41:07):
, ambitious person that comesalong and knows this.
They can't take over mybusiness and it's not going to
grow to be 50 people it's goingto go, but at least it's a good
stepping stone.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
That's right, yeah, but that's an interesting point,
these books so.
But that's the never thoughtabout that.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
But you're right, you know what you're designing for.
Yeah, you've got to design onpurpose like crazy, like crazy.
And look, most of us are sodadgum busy fighting the fires
of today that is really hard topull out and do some of that.
Invent the future work aroundthat design and and look, I'm
not gonna stump for myself toohard, but that that's where
(41:43):
coaches come in and can bereally helpful yeah it's by
helping you hide some of thatdesign stuff it.
Speaker 4 (41:48):
It's like a founder.
Okay, so that's your goal as afounder, but your responsibility
as a founder is to think aboutwhat does that impact mean?
And you have to be realisticwith yourself and strategize
about that, because you can'thave a company without other
people.
That's right, absolutely, andyou've got to be able to
(42:09):
accommodate that.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
If you're going to take some things, what are you
going to give?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Yeah, that's right, it's got.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yes, it's got a balance.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
It's like we hear it all the time.
It's like we don't have anygood people.
There's no good people outthere.
Well, what do you do for yourpeople?
Well, nothing.
We pay a minimum wage.
We have no benefits.
There's no open book management.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
There's no shared business planning.
You wonder why you have crappypeople?
Yeah, yeah, that's it.
I mean hey.
So Steve Graves always saysevery organization is perfectly
designed to get the results itgets.
Yeah, it's a haunting phrase.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
I like that.
That's a great phrase.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Every organization is perfectly designed to get the
results it gets.
It's a haunting phrase, but itcan also be a hopeful phrase,
because this, this plot there is.
If we change the design, yes,we can change the output, yes,
but changing the design isstinking hard.
Like that that you have to pullaway from.
You know, the tyranny of theurgent yes, step back and go.
(43:07):
I'm going to spend even moretime and money now.
Yes, to change the design.
That's not going to play outtomorrow, next week, or help me
make.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
And I got to survive the working capital.
That's right as the cost ofthat.
Absolutely it's very difficult,yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
So I got a question.
I'm going to get some freeadvice on the show.
Good yeah, some free advice onthe show Good yeah.
So my perspective is a littlebit different in what I do with
my business, like, my goal is toexit, it's to get a check at
the end, right, yep, that's mygoal, yep.
In the business, the peoplethat work for me, they know
(43:45):
that's my goal, that's our goal,collectively, yep.
And so they will benefit, theywill benefit, they will benefit.
And to that point, okay, so wemay not be making, you may not
have this, this, this latterstep of big corporation where
you're constantly making, makingmore and more money, but you do
have a chance to get a part ofthe check, yep, right at the end
(44:08):
.
And so that's our motivationand work towards what I see that
happens.
And here's my frustrating point.
I, as a founder, can see thatvision.
Every freaking time I wake up,well, you've done it.
And every decision that's madeas his company, and every single
nook and cranny, I'm like how?
And I get.
(44:28):
And here's where I getfrustrated.
Yeah, I'm like how in the hellcan you not see what you're
doing?
How exactly come to work?
Yep, yeah, and you have.
This is our motivation wasthere yesterday like how can you
not see your decision to do it?
This process, this way, isgoing to never, ever, ever get
us to the scale we need to go.
Exactly how do I, as a founderor as a business owner,
(44:50):
continuously en enlist thatvision?
Like you, do you not understandthe compound interest that you
have on your time today thatwill get us to that level?
When you don't do these things,it impacts everybody's paycheck
at the end.
Like you're, it's not me.
You're fighting against.
You're fighting against yourown negativity.
You bring that into the company.
You're lazy, you're tired,you're exhausted.
(45:12):
So is everybody else, yep.
But if you can just seesomething and know that every
time you spend an hour in thiscompany, you're multiplying your
return on your investment, howdo you get that point across to
the company?
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Three things come to mind God, thank God.
Number one is hire the rightpeople.
Okay, crazy like I.
I mean and I'm not sayingyou've hired the wrong people,
right, right, no, I agree likeyeah, it starts right there and
you gotta, and you have toscrape for that mentality in the
hiring.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
How did okay so in that?
How do you interview for that?
How do you know that thatperson's the right one?
Speaker 3 (45:48):
yeah, you'd have to give me a little like if a
client asked me that question.
I'm going to do some homeworkand some preparation, okay, but
you would need you need todesign for scraping, for
ownership mentality.
Okay, not going to be easy, butit is possible.
I mean, look, I used to.
I used to work for an eggcompany.
We had people come in and tryto sell eggs.
(46:08):
Like you want to sell eggs,come sell eggs.
Like you know, I mean we gotpretty creative with our
interview process, got it.
So that's one piece.
The second would be, obviously,vision casting, and I'm sure
you're doing a ton of that, butas quantifiable as we can make
the future potential check, asmuch vision as we can cast for
(46:29):
what that day is going to belike, and doing that pretty
often, and I think therepetition of that.
Speaker 4 (46:34):
The repetition of that is I'm often worried about.
Is it too much?
Like a lot of times I'll talkand I'm giving they call it the
Eric soapbox or you got Eric.
There's literally a verb thatthey title it the team.
Yeah, you got Eric, yeah, butlike team, yeah, you got eric.
Yeah, but I like a lot of timesI'm talking and I want to keep
talking but I quit because I canjust see the freaking ice.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Oh yeah, like you got to be bold, you got to be
brilliant, you got to be going,okay.
I mean, like we got to be, wegot to be fast, eric, okay, okay
.
So we need to, we need toprobably, we probably need to
shorten that message up a littlebit.
Then, uh, and then what's thethird thing?
Here's the third thing, andthis is the one that sucks.
It may not matter, damn itbecause here, here's the deal.
Are you mad, are you happy?
Speaker 1 (47:17):
no, I'm agreeing okay , great, I didn't know, mark, I
was worried, I was worried.
Yeah, it's, that's a sadreality.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
It is a sad reality and I learned this is a hard way
.
I was doing, uh, somecompensation planning for a
company that I worked for onetime and we spent so we know
salary benefits, short-termbonus plan and then long-term
incentive plan, and we spent aton of time and money on a
long-term incentive plan for abig company that was going to
(47:44):
exit and we put the number infront of people three times a
year.
If we sell in two years at thisamount, here's your Right.
Yeah, really, being specific, alot of changing money.
Big meaningful numbers Like gopay your home off yeah, right,
sure, big meaningful numbers.
And at the end of the day, whatwe found was people would leave
(48:09):
the job for a different rolewhere they were going to make
20% more salary yeah, or 10%,and with no glory.
Speaker 4 (48:21):
And with no glory.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
No, honor yes exactly .
Speaker 3 (48:27):
It's a mentality, it's a mindset.
It's a unique person Sure Tostay latched on to that mindset.
It's a unique person Sure Tostay latched onto that vision.
And not everybody has it.
And you can't build a team fullof people Like there's not
enough of them.
You can't build a team full ofpeople.
I hope your team's notlistening.
I'm sure you guys are all great.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
They will be listening.
I'll require them to listen.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
I'll make them all listen, but they will be
listening, I'll require them tolisten, I'll make that all this
good, but they're they should,they should.
It's just not a.
That's not how everybody'swired and at the end of the day,
and look, I actually want todefend the person a little bit,
like there are some people thatjust their life is oriented
around different things andthat's okay.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
But they need to.
It's okay, but they need toknow who they are and, more
importantly, we need to know whothey are.
You're right, hey wow.
This has really been a greatdiscussion and I'm very
impressed with Ben's insight andthought process.
So if anybody wants to get ahold of you, how do they do so?
Speaker 3 (49:31):
Easiest.
You know well this is going tobe ironic, given our pregame
conversation.
The easiest way is to shoot mea note on LinkedIn.
Speaker 4 (49:37):
No problem, Just don't start with just how was
your day?
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Yeah, be really clear .
Just don't try to sell Benanything, cause I'm not, cause
we're all getting those.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Or you can go check out our website cornerstonecocom
, and you can go check out ourwebsite cornerstonecocom, and
you can.
You can find me pretty easythere.
I'm, I'm, I'm not too hard tofind.
Speaker 4 (49:56):
In closing, what is one piece of advice that you
would give to an entrepreneur?
Like, and just a quick snippet,like a all right, let's look.
Here's the case.
If I'm I'm in a largecorporation, I have had a dream
to start a company.
I can't decide whether I wantto take the step or not, but I'm
miserable here and I seehappiness, or at least glory and
(50:19):
honor, strength and honor instarting my own business.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
What's your advice?
Speaker 3 (50:24):
So two different pieces of advice one for
somebody that might make thejump and one for somebody that's
already in the journey.
One for somebody that mightmake the jump and one for
somebody that's already in thejourney.
So for somebody that might makethe jump, if you've had the
nagging dream and it's not goinganywhere, take the daggum risk.
Go do it Like, go for it.
You know, like, if you've had afleeting, half serious, half
baked thought, keep your day job, okay, you don't need to go do
(50:46):
it.
But, like, if this is real andit's deep in you, take the jump,
the need.
Go do it Like.
So that's number one.
We like that.
Number two for the person that'sin the journey I'm going to
steal from my own world To thineown self.
Be true, to thine own self.
(51:06):
Be true, like, if you're in theentrepreneurial journey, be
really real with yourself aboutwhere you're at in the journey.
Like, what, what?
Where's the business going?
Is it producing the life foryou that you actually want?
Do you have line of sight towhere you're trying to go in the
future?
Are you, are you losing toomuch outside of work?
Are you or are you content withwhere you're like?
(51:28):
Are you or are you content withwhere you're like just be
really freaking real withyourself about where the
business is and and findsomebody that you can share that
with, like whether that's amentor, somebody else that's on
the entrepreneurial journey, uh,or a coach, whatever.
Find somebody that you can getinto that a little bit with.
Speaker 4 (51:48):
It's great.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
It's good.
Well, this has been a lot offun.
It has been.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
Hey, thanks for taking a risk and letting me
jump on the show with you guys.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
We really appreciate your being here.
It's been great, so until nextweek.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
I'm so nervous about the sign-off guys.
I've been worried about thissince the beginning.
You should have been.
You can do it.
I'm going to do my best I'mtrying to flow.
I want to show you the hopewhat's that one of the words,
the energizing hope man.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
I'm going to read you some energizing hope.
Speaker 3 (52:18):
You can do it.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Ben, I know, come on, so until next week.
There's been another episode of.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
Big Talk About Small Business at
bigtalkaboutsmallbusinesscom andclick on the Ask the Host
button for the chance to haveyour questions answered on the
show.
Stay connected with us onLinkedIn at Big Talk About Small
Business and be sure to headover to our website to read
articles, browse episodes andask questions about upcoming
shows.
I mean.
A lot of times two people gettogether because they are like
each other, which makes for theworst kinds of partners.
You know you need to havedifferent skills and orientation
typically to work well together, so you're not in each other's
territory.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Well, let's just be honest.
When you're sitting at thebeginning and the risk is
through the roof, it feels niceto have somebody else in the
boat.
Sure, I guess.
It's comforting to go.
If this thing sinks, he orshe's sinking too, and I'm not
alone.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
All right, we better get started.
Let's do this.
We don't want to waste any timeof our listeners.
And today, here in the studio,eric and I have a guest, and
that's ben cash.
And how's it going, ben?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
it's going great.
I'm excited to be here, uh anduh excited to be on the show
with you guys we're glad you'rehere.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Hopefully you'll feel the same way when it's over no,
we'll see, we'll see.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
I'm a little nervous after the pregame, so here we go
as you should be.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, uh, now being yeah, being nervous and paranoid
keeps you out of trouble.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
That's right.
We always give ourselves atleast 45 minutes to see if we
ruin a relationship.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, there you go.
That's good, that's good, weenjoy it.
But no, we're glad you're hereand this is another episode of
Big Talk.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Small Business, and so at the end end, then you have
to join us for the couch roll.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah it's, I can do this.
Okay, cool it's, it's a, it'sessential I'm still here.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I'll do it if I haven't left that's a good point
.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
I'll do it.
That is a good point all right,so kicked out oh gosh, I tell
you, um.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So we've got a lot to cover today, though, wouldn't
we do?
Do we have a spotlight that wecan use to focus on him as we
begin our authentication?
Speaker 4 (01:51):
That's right.
Yeah, we can do that in editing, no problem.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
All right, good, no, ben, tell us a little bit about
yourself.
I know you're in the coachingbusiness.
Tell us more, yeah.
So CEO coach and strategistwhich is a really awkward title
like at a cocktail party whenpeople are like I'm a banker or
I'm a real estate agent and I'mlike I'm a CEO coach, it doesn't
really roll off the tonguesuper well, but it actually
makes more sense if I give youjust a quick bit on my
background.
So I always tell people no onewould ever do on purpose the
career that I've done onaccident.
I've been a part of fourdifferent startups, a couple of
(02:30):
different scaling companies andspent, you know, probably two
thirds of my career in themarketplace.
But in the middle I had abizarre and wonderful experience
for about seven years as alicensed professional counselor.
That was part of myentrepreneurial journey, was
actually founded a counselingclinic.
So psychology, yeah, I was alicensed professional counselor
(02:53):
technically, but that stuff'sall pretty similar buckets,
gotcha, gotcha.
So what I do today is incoaching is really a nice coming
together, uh, my marketplaceexperience and my time, uh as as
a counselor, uh, which is long,long in the rear view, um, but
certainly skills that that Istill lean into today.
(03:14):
So what type of counseling?
Speaker 4 (03:16):
was that yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, yeah.
So, um, really saw two thingsprimarily.
Uh, one was professional men.
Now, this was this was back inlike 20, 2010,.
All the way through 2016.
Um, and so really, counselingwas a different world back then,
um, but so a lot ofprofessional men.
There weren't many malecounselors back then, uh, and,
(03:39):
and men typically wanted to seea male counselor, and so I saw a
lot of professional men andthen I did a lot of marriage
therapy.
Okay, and what was great aboutthat is over six years, seven
years, I did around 5,000 hoursof therapy.
Wow, and just the skills thatyou build, doing something that
much, and really was the firsttime I sat in the seat of
(04:02):
outside perspective, which isthe same seat I sit in with CEOs
and founders today but reallydeveloped those muscles, really
discovered how I can best youknow, with my unique skill set,
personality, whatever how I canbest sit in the seat of outside
perspective and really learned aton in counseling and really
(04:24):
thankful for uh, uh, and reallythankful for the experience.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
It was also just, it was a lot, and when it was time
to move on, it was very time tomove on Well you probably ended
your day just hearing aboutother people's problems and
considering I mean, I mean, notthat that's a bad thing, but I
mean.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
But you gotta be uniquely wired through that for
a long time.
Um and and you know, I learneda ton.
I don't have any regrets aboutdoing it, but also knew when
that season was coming to aclose.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I think the question, though, that all our listeners
are going to want to know theanswer to is how many times have
you been married?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Once for 20 years and still presently.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Yeah, man, I love you .
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That's a success.
I know you probably learned atremendous amount about just
like how to deal with your ownrelationship.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Oh yeah, but my wife doesn't put up with any crap
from me, Like she doesn't saythis anymore, but she used to
literally say don't you bringyour therapy stuff on me.
That's right.
I don't want it.
That's right.
I don't want, that's right.
You keep that out of herethat's unusual.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Most spouses want to bring the therapy stuff on and
we're like, no, don't bother usat certain phases when they get
past that, that's, they justgave up.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Yeah, yeah, that's bad, that's when you, that's a
good big bread.
We have experience in thatdepartment couple times.
Some of us three, four, yeah,three, okay, sorry it's third
times.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
The charm got it, got it, but uh.
So that is interesting, thoughI'm sure, and especially like
partnerships.
A lot of times in businesses,whether they're organized as
partnerships or corporations orllc's that yeah the one owner.
It's like being married tosomebody isn't it absolutely?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
um, uh, those, those I you know I'll have
conversations all the time, guys, with people who it's like
being married to somebody, isn'tit Absolutely?
I'll have conversations all thetime, guys, with people who want
to become a coach, because theyare either in a pastoral role,
they are a counselor or apsychologist, and they're like I
think I want to get intocoaching and I and I tell them
(06:24):
all the same thing, which is theskillset you've built will
translate, but it's going to siton top of a completely
different piece of context andyou better learn that content
because you might do a littlebit of coaching here or there,
because you've got some skillsyou've built.
Um, that that can, that, thatyou can take and give folks
(06:46):
under the name of leadership orwhatever.
But you better learn theircontext and you better get
really serious about learningthat context.
Like, if you don't want tostart reading books and reading
articles and getting into theHBR and reading the Wall Street
Journal or whatever your sourceis, then don't think you can
become a coach, because you gotto learn the context, your
skills, don't think you canbecome a coach.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Because you got to learn the context, your skills.
Don't get to just come overhere and sit, yeah, just
constantly growing and learning.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
That's right, yourself right.
And I mean you know, and Ithink it's.
I like the whole counselingthing just because I think that
everything in business is aboutrelations.
I mean it's about how do youhandle your relationship, how do
you you know, how do you you'llcome across, how do you not
offend?
How do you offend?
How do you be direct?
I mean there's just so muchemotion nestled within every
(07:33):
business decision that I thinkit's important that, especially
for our listeners, right, thatare your thing about jumping
into a business, starting one oryou're trying to grow one, it
comes down to that relationalfactor, I mean everywhere.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
I had a guy ask me a year ago.
He was starting a business andhe had been talking to another
guy about partnering to start itand he said, should I take on a
part?
And I was like, maybe, like,maybe that could be a great
thing or maybe it could be acomplete train wreck.
Exactly, and he was like what'sthe point?
My mentor's telling me that Ireally should, and I was like,
well, he might end up beingright, or it might end up
(08:12):
costing you thousands of dollarsand years of your life, and I
mean let's stay in that for asecond, because I was telling
somebody just not even a weekago about I have been blessed
with great partners.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
I mean I really have like, but I've I've seen with my
other peers in the businesscommunity that that's not the
case with everybody.
Actually, it's kind of a uniqueexperience because I have seen
some partnerships that have beenabsolutely devastating, even
more devastating than divorces.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, well, I mean, it's a.
We see it all the time.
I mean, a lot of times twopeople get together because they
are like each other, which ismakes for the worst kinds of
partners.
You know you need to havedifferent skills and orientation
typically to work well together, so you're not, yeah, in each
other's territory well, let'sjust be honest.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
When you're sitting at the beginning and the risk is
through the roof, it feels niceto have somebody else in the
boat.
Sure, it's comforting to go.
If this thing sinks, he orshe's sinking too, and I'm not
alone, you know like so thatthat, that feels good, but
you're trading a lot for that,for that early on.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Well, and there's a lot of when you're trading a lot
for that, for that early on.
Well, there's a lot of whenyou're sitting the boat with all
that risk and one of you youknow the goal would be is that
the other person is as investedas you are fills a rack against
the wall.
Are going to fight like hellyeah, they're at the same time
and attention they're notlooking eight to five, they're
not talking about the nextvacation and all this kind of
(09:43):
stuff.
They're engaged.
But the problem happens whenthat other person starts getting
discouraged, becoming depressed, starts isolating, distracted
for any reason.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just tired,exhausted, worn out.
They're not.
They're not on the, they're noton the battlefield with you
more.
That's devastation.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yep, the two things that I see in partnerships uh
and I don't work with a ton ofpartnerships, so I'm not trying
to position myself as anabsolute expert here, but I've
had partners and I've workedwith some partners the two
things that I see the mostnumber one is exactly what you
just said, which is somebodyretreats a little bit and
they're just being worn downwhatever Sure man, life happens,
(10:21):
yeah that can happen.
Yeah, number two, though, isvision drift.
I see so much vision drift thatjust seeds this.
You know it starts off hereLike we're going, we're rowing
in the same direction, we wantto do the same thing, but we get
seven years into the businessand all of a sudden we're in a
new season.
(10:41):
We got some people working forus, we got some opportunities
that maybe we didn't have, andall of a sudden, this partner
wants to go that way and thispersonal partner wants to go
that way.
Well, it's not very big at first, but, man, as time goes and
then you look up all of a suddenand you're yelling at each
other and you're arguing witheach other and you're going we
need to do this, and the otherpartner, we need to do this, and
(11:01):
it's vision driven.
Yeah, and and what?
Both visions might be viable,they might be good, they might
be profitable, but if they'redifferent, it's it.
It will really, really wreckthat partnership over time.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
You know how do you mitigate that or how do you
navigate that vision, because Imean, if you see that real early
on, I mean the optimal thing isto catch it really soon.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Right, just like in a marriage, right.
If you start splitting a littlebit, how do you bring that back
in?
I mean, one thing I think aboutis just go have more time
together as partners, right.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Absolutely.
And you've got to fight likehell for alignment.
You've got to fight foralignment and over and, over and
over again.
And the problem is the first 90percent of alignment I'm making
up a statistic here, by the way,guys, the first, we're all
about that anecdotal we got itfine, no, first 90 percent of
(11:58):
alignment is typically prettyeasy, like it's like okay, well,
we make water and we sell waterat gas stations, and this is
our consumer.
And it's like okay, well, wemake water and we sell water at
gas stations and this is ourconsumer.
And it's like, okay, yeah,great, we got it.
Well, there's this last 10 ofalignment, where, where things
get a little bit more into focusand we have to make some real
decisions, that is really reallyhard and it's so easy to leave
(12:21):
that last 10% undone.
And that's the 10% that growsand grows and grows over time,
makes total sense.
And so you have to, you have toreally really fight for that,
that full level of alignment.
And and you need you you have toactively fish for, for
misalignment, like you.
You need to like, if you'redoing, if you have a semi-annual
(12:42):
partnership retreat which is agreat idea, by the way of some
sort Okay, you need to.
You need to not just say are wealigned?
Yeah, okay, great, we'realigned.
You need to go let's.
We need to like spend 15minutes brainstorming places
we're not aligned, likespecifically looking for places
we're not aligned.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
I like that.
That's good.
I want to go back to one thing,though, if we can Back on this
coaching thing and you're sayingpeople need to understand the
context.
I mean, I'll be honest with youthat I feel very skeptical of
most coaches.
You should.
Most of them have been throughsome kind of training class.
(13:19):
I know one individual, forexample, who's a quote life
coach.
Yeah, I know one individual,for example who's?
a quote life coach yeah, andthis person has had a series of
failed relationships throughtheir entire life.
Yeah, they've never built anykind of a career success.
Yeah, okay.
And now, at whatever age let'ssay you know advanced age
(13:41):
they've become a life coach andthey're going to go out there
and tell me how to live my lifeor how to be more successful in
business.
Get real, yeah.
I mean, I think a lot ofbusiness owners feel like if the
coach hasn't been as successfulas they have been in business,
they don't have any credibilitywith them.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, what do you think I think it's a great
question?
They don't have any credibilitywith them.
Yeah, what do you think I thinkit's a great question?
I'm going to maybe nuance alittle bit my answer.
So level one is I completelyagree, like there are.
I'm telling you guys, I getcalls every single week of
people who want to becomecoaches.
I believe that In themarketplace, sure and done big
(14:24):
work, you haven't done sevenyears as become coaches.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I believe that Sure and done and done, big work
Haven't done seven years as atherapist.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
That's right.
Yeah.
Sat on a leadership team yeah,right, and start a business that
grew from 25 million to 150million in five years.
Exactly, yeah or persist.
Participated in four startups,so yes, I agree so like yes,
it's, it's real.
(14:48):
We just eliminated 98% of themright there, 99%, I will say
there are some really goodcoaches who, who don't have the
experience you would expect.
I mean, you know, like I've gota, I've got a coach or I've got
a CEO in my portfolio.
Right now we're a year and ahalf in to a to a year long
engagement, okay, so we extended.
Yeah, he's a happy client, sure, okay, and, and he is running a
(15:10):
$750 million business in LosAngeles, california, that is
backed by private equity money.
I've never done that, yeah,sure, I haven't done that.
So here's my nuance to that yes, the experience matters and you
got to have it, you, you got tohave some level of it.
But there's also this level of,like, serious training and and
(15:31):
really getting into the scienceand art of being a coach, where
I can sit down with him and andI haven't sat in his seat, but I
can prove to him that I'vedeveloped enough skills as a
coach to be the coach that comesalong, the guy that's sitting
in that seat, and there is someskill.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
No, I believe that I mean I've been a management
consultant since 1980, and I'veworked with CEOs and founders,
architecture and engineeringfirms all over.
Certainly, some of them weremuch bigger than my own company
yes, that's right.
So I believe that you can makethat Absolutely, yep, and if you
have credibility andsensibility.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yep, yep, but you have to.
That's only for the coachesthat are taking really serious
the work.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
I got another question for you, though.
What's the difference in?
Well, I think I know what'ssort of conventional wisdom is
about the difference in a coachversus a consultant.
You know, the consultant tellsyou what to do.
The coach is supposed to likepull it out of you.
Is that your thought process orno?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
I hear that exact line pretty often yeah, I don't
love it, I don't either.
So here's how I would describeit, like if you are, if you're
running, if you're the CEO of ahospital system, or let me pick
a more relevant example for ouraudience today If you're the CEO
(17:04):
of a $25 million home servicescompany, right, sure, and you're
going.
You know what.
I need help on thisindustry-specific topic?
Go, get a consultant.
That's what a consultant does.
If you're like I've got thisreally hyper-specific,
industry-level problem that Ican't solve HVAC marketing,
(17:26):
that's right.
Yeah, like, go, I'm justthrowing that out there.
I don't want to help you withthat, so don't call if that's
what you mean Don't call, I gotit.
But you know I don't think thata really good coach is just
pulling answers out at you.
Thank, you.
(17:46):
We just pulling answers out inyou.
Thank you, we say all the time.
There's four things that weprovide for every client
engagement.
Number one is useful strategy,outside perspective, measured
accountability and energizinghope.
That's our four.
We're doing those.
Useful strategy and outsideperspective you better believe I
am bringing.
I am bringing some ideas, somebest practices, some fresh
(18:08):
thinking to the table, andthat's going to be on strategic
topics, that's going to be on um, that's going to be on
leadership topics.
That's going to be on thingsabout your P and L, like we're
we're getting shared, so um,there are times where I'm going
to let some space sit and letsome, you know, let a client do
(18:32):
a little bit of self-discovery,but there are also times when
I'm going to come straight inand be like this is a mistake,
you need to go do this, go dothis.
And that art whether we'retalking about, you know, small
business owners who are managingand leading others, or a coach
who's working with a client thatart of knowing when to lean in
and when to lean out is, is abig, big part of the coaching
(18:57):
posture and leadership postureas well, like knowing when to go
.
Hey, I'm just going to bedirective here and everybody
needs to, needs to hear yeah orhey, I'm going to, I'm going to
let some of the more open spaceplay.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
So I want to put it in kind of a really practical
scenario from my experience andthis is a good dialogue, because
I've never really looked into acoach or consultants.
I've experienced consultants butI've never really looked into a
coach but there are a lot oftimes as a business owner that
I'm like who do I trust?
Yeah, cause, everyone aroundyou, their, their opinion, is
(19:31):
what I mean, not like them as aperson, but as their opinion,
their advice or direction, andit's there's a lot of times as
an entrepreneur, I feel veryisolated and like does anybody
have a motive to give me ananswer?
That's, that's objective andfor the good of the business?
Yep, is that what I'm kind oflooking at with a coach?
(19:54):
Is somebody that's that's inthat, that is in my circle of
basically trusting that.
The advice that I get, or adirective or and what I liked
about what you said just asecond ago is don't do this, do
this, because that's for thegood of the whole versus the
(20:15):
good of of any one person I mean, is that, is that a good way to
kind of put that?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, I, I, I think so.
Now, now look, even even us,you know, sure, motive coaches
are, are, are sending an invoiceat the end of the month, so our
motives are not completely pure, uh, but, but no doubt, I, I, I
think one of the things that'sreally really important there,
um, yes, it is unbelievable.
(20:41):
The isolating weight in afounder or a CEO at any level of
businesses is, uh, is feeling,I mean, I, I tell people, all
the time we, we talk about anorg chart just comes down like
this, don't forget, a lot oftimes it also goes up to an
ownership group or a board,right, and the pitch point it's
either the pinnacle or the pitchpoint Every single time is that
(21:05):
founder or CEO who's leading?
Speaker 1 (21:08):
And I think another not to interrupt you, but I
think just in support of whatyou're saying even if you don't
have outside owners of whichI've had companies where I was
the majority owner and otherowners and I started it and
didn't have any private equityor anything you still feel like
you're not, it's not all yours.
I mean, you've got all theseother partners.
(21:31):
You got to please them.
If you don't, they leave orthey have an insurrection,
that's right.
You've got customers or clientsout there.
You got to take care of themand you got your employees out
there, which you know they allhave free will too.
So it's like nobody can justoperate with impunity.
That's right.
If you're smart man, I tell youlike here's what's.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
You know, there was a period in my career's number of
years ago to where, like, I wasfacing such like literally I
tell people for a six monthperiod on a daily basis.
I was facing such likeliterally, I tell people for a
six-month period on a dailybasis.
I was facing life and deathdecisions of the business.
Every day there was somethingcoming up.
I mean I had culture drainingbut yet at the same time,
(22:18):
invigorating.
I had really great folks andreally bad folks.
I was making massive decisionsabout the direction of the
company.
I had no partner.
I had, I mean, like it was and,by the way, I didn't the cash
wasn't working, the revenuewasn't coming in, you know, or
I'd have a big job, have toexecute it.
I mean, there was just so muchgoing on this period and I
(22:40):
remember like going, I don'thave anyone to talk to.
Yeah, you know, that does itlike.
If you talk to your spouse, youscare the shit out of your
spouse.
Yep, right.
If you talk to your employees,it just further exasperates the
freaking, the you know thenegative culture and all the
fears of everybody like abouttheir jobs and when really
everybody needs to come together, put the ship and go, you know,
(23:02):
and that's all I was trying todo.
It it wasn't.
I mean, I didn't, I had lost anyhope of my own personal income
and financial security, likethat was on the complete break,
like I was riding on the edge,you know.
And then, of course, you havereputation and all these things.
You know, I mean there's justlike failure staring at you in
the face, right, and, and Ithink that that that that period
(23:24):
, and when I've talked to otherentrepreneurs, they have lived
that, right, and you, you're inthis dark area of who do you
talk to?
Yeah, you know, because you.
It's almost like you can't eventalk to mentors.
I couldn't call mark because,mark, when you look down on me
and pass judgment on you, yeah,you would pass total judgment on
me, right, but I mean, but's,that may not be truth, right,
(23:46):
but that is how you feel in thatmoment.
Yeah, yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
You know part of the for for me, founders, no doubt
it's an isolating space.
No one in their worldunderstands all the different
aspects of family financialsdecisions managing down.
Oh, by the way, trying tomanage myself a little bit too,
(24:13):
to make sure I don't drive thisship off the fence.
Yeah 100% With coaching.
But the problem with coachingis you can't pay somebody a
monthly retainer to just come inand be the person that you can
be Like.
They've also got to drive valuefor the business.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
A great coach has got to do both of those things.
They've got to be able to comein and actually be helpful to
drive bottom line value for thebusiness and come in and be that
person that goes hey, I'm nottrying to say I know exactly
what it's like to be you, but Iwould imagine that when you
tapped that line of credit tomake payroll this month because
you're waiting on that biginvoice to be paid, and oh, by
(24:52):
the way, that line of creditsecured against your house and
your, your spouse may kill youif she knows that you've tapped
it again Like, and your, yourspouse may kill you if she knows
that you've tapped it again.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Like yeah, okay, like you get some credibility with
that's where you bridge that gapyou were talking about.
Absolutely yeah, I get it.
I mean I, that makes totalsense that's good dialogue you
know I I don't want to gosidetrack too much, but I was a
a leader of one of these groupsof business people who get
(25:24):
together.
I won't name the brand yeah okay, and it was all you know, and I
think there were some reallygood aspects of it.
Yeah, meaning, so somebody likeeric is talking about like,
who's he going to go to whenyou've got like eight or ten or
twelve other business ownerstogether at a table and they
have no vested interest in yourbusiness whatsoever, they can
(25:48):
sort of function as your boardand catharsis you know cathartic
experience sharing yourproblems with them.
You know that they also have.
But at the same time, you knowthere were other aspects of
those groups that I think arereally bad.
(26:09):
Yeah, um, like they're alwaystrying to sell their members
something.
Yeah, okay, there's always aprogram they want you to sign
them up for.
There's always, um, an outsidespeaker who's got something that
they're selling, yeah, and andthat's a real negative.
So you know, but I I will saythat a lot of people who are in
those groups, they would go backand forth between being part of
(26:33):
a group, having a coach yeah,doing that for a while, then
going back to a group, doingthat for two while, then going
back to a group, doing that fortwo or three years, again back
to a coach.
Do you see that?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I say this with fondness,
not judgment.
Some people are just arecontent junkies.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yes, they are.
Some people are just like, Icall them management junkies,
but yeah, yeah, like they.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Just they gotta have.
You know, they read the newbook and they got to implement
that strategy in their business.
And they met a guy at theirVistage group and they got to
implement the EOS is the saviorof every single thing Of the
entire world.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, exactly, I know .
No doubt Drives me insane.
Yeah, yeah, I know exactly whatyou're saying.
And so it's like one out of 10.
If there's 10 owners in thecompany, one of them is going to
be one of those jobs.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
And, by the way, if you've ever worked for one of
those people before, it isprofessional whiplash.
Oh yeah, Because you're goingthis way and then they read the
new book You're swimming with onthe bus and then you got a blue
(27:48):
oceans whatever.
But then you know we also have,uh, on the other end of that,
one minute managing, we've got,we've got the we've got the
maverick who's never let meanybody into the circle.
Yeah, like that's the other endof that spectrum yeah, I'm over
here and I'm gonna do my thingand what like whatever happens
is gonna happen, and I'mcharging the dadgum hill and you
guys better be coming with me.
So there is another end of thatspectrum too.
But yeah, I mean, we see peoplemove in and out of that.
Look, I am extremely fortunateto be a few years into my
(28:14):
practice where I'm not beggingfor clients anymore, like I'm
not scraping the barrel lookingfor clients anymore and and I'm
really it it it becomes thisreally weird momentum thing
happens in coaching when all ofa sudden you can be a little
more selective of your clientand go this person needs help.
They know they need help and Ican actually be the one that
(28:37):
could help them.
Now, all of a sudden we'vesudden there's some serious
momentum happening here wherethey're going to have a better
experience, I'm going to havemore confidence, I'm going to
deliver more value, like a lotof good can happen there, and so
you know that's a nice place tobe as a coach, where I'm
(28:57):
seeking out clients that I knowI can help.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Sure.
So, bing, can you give us some,I mean for the listeners, right
, like I mean, you've got anentrepreneur that's listening to
this.
What are some of the valuesfrom a coach standpoint?
Right, and you said the goodanalogy about consulting.
You know, from a consultingarrangement, very isolated, very
niche, very specific task.
But if they have greater needs,I mean what, what are some like
(29:23):
, uh, some examples, tacticalexamples that you could give so
that they could say, oh, Iactually might need a coach?
I mean it's enlightening for metoo.
I mean, hell, I don't know if Ineed a coach, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Um, so there's a lot I mean we help, we, we we work
on.
Let me give a little bit ofoverview of how, please let me
answer that question.
So we try to isolate five to 10really specific things that a
client wants help with.
So that might be somethingstrategic in the business, it
might be something with the P&L,it might be leadership,
(29:57):
management, management.
It might be like a long-rangevision or dream.
I want to sell my business or Iwant this to lifestyle for the
next three decades, whatever.
But we're going to isolate fiveto 10 things and then we're
going to work really, reallyhard on those things.
So because of that, we get intoa lot of different things.
(30:18):
We do not have cookie cutter.
It is not EOS.
Do not have cookie cutter it'sit is not EOS.
Or working genius Like ah, hereyou know, here, here's the
playbook, just go run that.
It's all real custom.
But I will give one thingparticularly relevant for for
your listeners Uh, when, when Italk to small business folks,
the number one thing that I'minterested in is do you have
(30:42):
line of sight to the businesscreating the outputs that you
actually want?
Now, I'm not saying you got tobe there today, like sometimes
the small business journey is adumpster fire and you got to go
through the dumpster fire, yeah,but like, do you have line of
sight?
Can you see, you know if, if?
(31:03):
Can you see the exit thatyou're chasing?
Like, is it real, is it outthere?
Or can you see the businessfunding the lifestyle that you
want to see?
Or can you see yourself?
I mean, you know time like thenumber one, not not the number
one thing, but something thatyou hear all the time as well.
(31:24):
We're just really busy right nowI'm like yeah, that's what
we've all been saying the last30 years, right?
So, like, if you're telling meyou actually want it, like it's
important that the business thatyou've put your entire
financial, uh, you know, uh,your all your money, all your
risk on the line, your identity,your identity, yeah, you
actually.
And you're telling me I want toown a business because
eventually, I want to get someof my time and flexibility back,
(31:46):
do you actually have line ofsight to that?
Like, is that a real potentialoutcome right now or not?
Yeah, and a lot of times, thereal answer to that is no.
I have a dream, but I don'tactually have a line of sight to
it, and so a lot of times, whatwe'll do, I don't actually have
a line of sight to it, and so alot of times, what we'll do,
particularly with small businessowners, is say here's current
state, here's where we are today.
(32:07):
Let's get really real about that.
Here's the P&L, here's the team.
Frank sucks.
I need to fire him.
I've known that for a year anda half, exactly, yeah, you know.
Whatever, whatever, like here'sthe, here's the, here's the
nitty-gritty of the presentstate.
Yes, and here's the actual like.
What is that?
Desired state yeah, yeah.
What is that future state?
And maybe it's three years away, maybe it's 10 years away, sure
(32:29):
, but like what is that desiredstate?
What?
Do we have line of sight to it?
Where we not, and if we don'thave line of sight, we better
get serious about creating somepathways to have that line of
sight.
Now, those lines of sight theymay go into strategic
initiatives.
They may go into a decision tokill one part of an offering and
start a new part of an offering.
(32:50):
They may have.
It may be I need to make a$200,000 investment so that I
can like whatever, but that'ssomething we see a lot of,
particularly with small businessowners.
Is is creating a lot inside thefuture state.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
It's interesting you know, you just said something I
think is interesting.
Um, you said whether your goalis to have this exit at some
point or to create a businessthat that funds a certain
lifestyle for a long time in thefuture.
I guess my experience is thatthe second one is extremely
(33:31):
difficult to do.
And what's the second?
The second one is build abusiness that funds a lifestyle
for 30 years into the futureJust cash flowing.
Yeah, for 30 years into thefuture, cash flowing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That that I think a lot ofpeople have that idea about
their business, their smallbusiness, that they're going to
start this thing, they're goingto get it to a certain point
where it makes a lot of money.
(33:52):
They're going to step back outof it.
It's just going to churn outmoney for them.
Okay, I think that is sounlikely and in fact, I think
it's a disservice to most peopleto allow them to think that
that's even a realisticpossibility.
Yeah, what do you think aboutthat?
Speaker 3 (34:14):
I think it's a really fair push because I think, look
, if we just surveyed a hundredsmall business owners in their
experience over the last decade,the number who have ended in
that state is going to beextremely small, yeah, yeah.
So I think it's a really reallyfair push.
I do think, look, it's neverthis clean, it's never this easy
(34:39):
.
Look, it's never this clean,it's never this easy.
But if you can go into thejourney and and know that that's
what you're aiming at and thatit influences a lot of early
decisions like, let's, let'stake a very, let's go back to
the partnership, right, if youwant a lifestyle, if you want
the business to to fund yourlifestyle, don't get a partner,
because now it's funding, it'sgot.
You just put a lot of pressureon the P&L.
(34:59):
It's got to fund two lifestyles, not one.
It's a lot easier to fund onelifestyle than two.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
And that's assuming that the partner is aligned to
that same exit plan.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
That's right, no doubt about it.
No doubt about it.
For a lack of exit plan, right,yeah, if you do have some
vision from the very, very earlystage and can influence
decisions as you go, it is a.
It is a uh ambition worth worthchasing.
Um, now, at the same time, I'veI've got a client right now
(35:32):
that's in home services.
He has a uh, it does.
They do about 12 million bucksof revenue a year, uh, and
they're doing profit around $1.5million.
So a really nice littlebusiness.
Sure, but consolidation ishappening in his industry like
crazy, sure, like crazy.
(35:53):
I mean, everybody is buying orbeing bought All this private
equity money chasing, bandingall these little companies
together, no doubt about it, andso his vision it's a family
business.
He's second generation, it'sbeen in the family for 30 years
and he's like I want it to fundour family for another 30 years.
And I looked at him a couplemonths ago and I said I don't
(36:13):
know that that's going to be anoption that's on the table for
you.
Yeah, because I don't know thatyou're going to be able to
exist as this independentorganization in an industry that
is getting consolidated likecrazy, and so sometimes you may
even set out and be one of thefew that does everything right
and still lose that opportunitynow if that happens.
So he's going to get a nicecheck and he'll be okay.
(36:35):
Like I'm not super worriedabout yeah, uh, but, but it
could be very real.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
This game makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
I'm, you know, I'm impressed, yeah well, I mean, I
think you know skeptical aboutcoaches, come dude, I am a
slight redemption of my mystery.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I'm slight, yeah, you see.
Well, you're not.
I mean, what you do reallyisn't much.
I mean, I hate to be the wordyou know, can I?
Speaker 3 (37:03):
speak to that real quick though.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
I should give a ton of credit to my mentor there.
So my mentor is a guy namedSteve Graves.
You guys have probably heard ofSteve.
He's a local guy.
Steve taught me to be a coachand that's a message for a lot
of great coaches is don't justgo hang your shingle Like you.
Get somebody that knows whatthe heck they're doing.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Who's been successful ?
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Who's been successful ?
Right, I agree, not only did Ihave some industry experience,
but, man, then I had a mentorwho taught me how to do it.
That's helpful, and I've madeplenty of mistakes, both in my
time in organizations and inbusinesses and even as a coach,
but having a mentor to kind ofpull me along has been really
(37:45):
helpful.
Speaker 5 (37:46):
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Speaker 1 (38:01):
I guess what I was going to say is I don't want to
split hairs over the terminology, but what you're doing in my
mind is the same thing that,let's say, I did as a management
consultant at a high level.
Yeah, I don't see muchdifference in it.
Yeah, call it whatever you want.
Yeah, sure, but obviously yougot to get into the people and
their motivations and what thedesired end state is and all
(38:26):
these things that you'vementioned.
And you know, I don't know whyit is that people don't like the
word consultant today.
I mean, it's like everyconsultant now is an advisory
yeah, yeah firm.
Okay, I, I mean it, just itdrives me crazy.
Consultant became a dirty wordat some point yeah, yeah but
anyway, back on though what wewere talking about with the
(38:48):
small business owners and all.
I mean, what do you think about?
I mean, is it viable to say wejust want to be small and highly
profitable as an organizationand go on like that for a long
time?
I mean, is that really viable?
I mean, is that really viable?
(39:10):
I guess I keep coming back tothis idea that who good wants to
work in that company?
If you told me that yourcompany is like Mark, you've
come to work for me as a young,highly motivated person, but
we're never going to have morethan eight or 10 people and I'll
never sell you the company.
I'm going to turn it over to mydaughter.
Why would I want to work there?
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Highly ambitious people are probably not applying
.
Why?
Speaker 1 (39:37):
would I want to work in that environment.
I mean, it just seems like alot of business owners.
They're so myopic and theycan't.
They want what they want andthey can't look at it more
objectively and say who's gonnawant to be part of this thing?
Yeah, do you ever give?
Speaker 3 (39:56):
that talk to people.
It's, it's a great question.
Um, I do, I do think it'spossible.
I do think that slice is reallyis is quite thin and takes an
extraordinary amount of strategyand discipline.
Let me give a small example,and this is like I'm kind of
shooting from the hip here.
Sure, it's okay, I mean, ifthis isn't full of flesh, it's
(40:18):
okay, our entire show yeah.
Perfect, that should be right.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
We shoot from the hip .
Speaker 3 (40:23):
My wife would tell you I'm best when shooting from
the hips when I aim that's right, it that thinks that's right.
Um, it's like show skeet, youlike that?
Yeah, yeah, that's a point,yeah.
So, going back to your exampleof of, uh, your business and and
the guy that doesn't want togrow it, he's going to pass it
to his daughter.
Look, this is an extremeexample, but like the type of
(40:46):
strategy it takes to makesomething like that, work is to
go.
So here's how I'm going toaccount for that in my business
plan.
I'm going to have a catch andrelease talent strategy and I,
instead of panicking when goodpeople leave, I'm going to
celebrate and even market thatthey left so that the next young
(41:07):
, ambitious person that comesalong and knows this.
They can't take over mybusiness and it's not going to
grow to be 50 people it's goingto go, but at least it's a good
stepping stone.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
That's right, yeah, but that's an interesting point,
these books so.
But that's the never thoughtabout that.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
But you're right, you know what you're designing for.
Yeah, you've got to design onpurpose like crazy, like crazy.
And look, most of us are sodadgum busy fighting the fires
of today that is really hard topull out and do some of that.
Invent the future work aroundthat design and and look, I'm
not gonna stump for myself toohard, but that that's where
(41:43):
coaches come in and can bereally helpful yeah it's by
helping you hide some of thatdesign stuff it.
Speaker 4 (41:48):
It's like a founder.
Okay, so that's your goal as afounder, but your responsibility
as a founder is to think aboutwhat does that impact mean?
And you have to be realisticwith yourself and strategize
about that, because you can'thave a company without other
people.
That's right, absolutely, andyou've got to be able to
(42:09):
accommodate that.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
If you're going to take some things, what are you
going to give?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Yeah, that's right, it's got.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yes, it's got a balance.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
It's like we hear it all the time.
It's like we don't have anygood people.
There's no good people outthere.
Well, what do you do for yourpeople?
Well, nothing.
We pay a minimum wage.
We have no benefits.
There's no open book management.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
There's no shared business planning.
You wonder why you have crappypeople?
Yeah, yeah, that's it.
I mean hey.
So Steve Graves always saysevery organization is perfectly
designed to get the results itgets.
Yeah, it's a haunting phrase.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
I like that.
That's a great phrase.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Every organization is perfectly designed to get the
results it gets.
It's a haunting phrase, but itcan also be a hopeful phrase,
because this, this plot there is.
If we change the design, yes,we can change the output, yes,
but changing the design isstinking hard.
Like that that you have to pullaway from.
You know, the tyranny of theurgent yes, step back and go.
(43:07):
I'm going to spend even moretime and money now.
Yes, to change the design.
That's not going to play outtomorrow, next week, or help me
make.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
And I got to survive the working capital.
That's right as the cost ofthat.
Absolutely it's very difficult,yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
So I got a question.
I'm going to get some freeadvice on the show.
Good yeah, some free advice onthe show Good yeah.
So my perspective is a littlebit different in what I do with
my business, like, my goal is toexit, it's to get a check at
the end, right, yep, that's mygoal, yep.
In the business, the peoplethat work for me, they know
(43:45):
that's my goal, that's our goal,collectively, yep.
And so they will benefit, theywill benefit, they will benefit.
And to that point, okay, so wemay not be making, you may not
have this, this, this latterstep of big corporation where
you're constantly making, makingmore and more money, but you do
have a chance to get a part ofthe check, yep, right at the end
(44:08):
.
And so that's our motivationand work towards what I see that
happens.
And here's my frustrating point.
I, as a founder, can see thatvision.
Every freaking time I wake up,well, you've done it.
And every decision that's madeas his company, and every single
nook and cranny, I'm like how?
And I get.
(44:28):
And here's where I getfrustrated.
Yeah, I'm like how in the hellcan you not see what you're
doing?
How exactly come to work?
Yep, yeah, and you have.
This is our motivation wasthere yesterday like how can you
not see your decision to do it?
This process, this way, isgoing to never, ever, ever get
us to the scale we need to go.
Exactly how do I, as a founderor as a business owner,
(44:50):
continuously en enlist thatvision?
Like you, do you not understandthe compound interest that you
have on your time today thatwill get us to that level?
When you don't do these things,it impacts everybody's paycheck
at the end.
Like you're, it's not me.
You're fighting against.
You're fighting against yourown negativity.
You bring that into the company.
You're lazy, you're tired,you're exhausted.
(45:12):
So is everybody else, yep.
But if you can just seesomething and know that every
time you spend an hour in thiscompany, you're multiplying your
return on your investment, howdo you get that point across to
the company?
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Three things come to mind God, thank God.
Number one is hire the rightpeople.
Okay, crazy like I.
I mean and I'm not sayingyou've hired the wrong people,
right, right, no, I agree likeyeah, it starts right there and
you gotta, and you have toscrape for that mentality in the
hiring.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
How did okay so in that?
How do you interview for that?
How do you know that thatperson's the right one?
Speaker 3 (45:48):
yeah, you'd have to give me a little like if a
client asked me that question.
I'm going to do some homeworkand some preparation, okay, but
you would need you need todesign for scraping, for
ownership mentality.
Okay, not going to be easy, butit is possible.
I mean, look, I used to.
I used to work for an eggcompany.
We had people come in and tryto sell eggs.
(46:08):
Like you want to sell eggs,come sell eggs.
Like you know, I mean we gotpretty creative with our
interview process, got it.
So that's one piece.
The second would be, obviously,vision casting, and I'm sure
you're doing a ton of that, butas quantifiable as we can make
the future potential check, asmuch vision as we can cast for
(46:29):
what that day is going to belike, and doing that pretty
often, and I think therepetition of that.
Speaker 4 (46:34):
The repetition of that is I'm often worried about.
Is it too much?
Like a lot of times I'll talkand I'm giving they call it the
Eric soapbox or you got Eric.
There's literally a verb thatthey title it the team.
Yeah, you got Eric, yeah, butlike team, yeah, you got eric.
Yeah, but I like a lot of timesI'm talking and I want to keep
talking but I quit because I canjust see the freaking ice.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Oh yeah, like you got to be bold, you got to be
brilliant, you got to be going,okay.
I mean, like we got to be, wegot to be fast, eric, okay, okay
.
So we need to, we need toprobably, we probably need to
shorten that message up a littlebit.
Then, uh, and then what's thethird thing?
Here's the third thing, andthis is the one that sucks.
It may not matter, damn itbecause here, here's the deal.
Are you mad, are you happy?
Speaker 1 (47:17):
no, I'm agreeing okay , great, I didn't know, mark, I
was worried, I was worried.
Yeah, it's, that's a sadreality.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
It is a sad reality and I learned this is a hard way
.
I was doing, uh, somecompensation planning for a
company that I worked for onetime and we spent so we know
salary benefits, short-termbonus plan and then long-term
incentive plan, and we spent aton of time and money on a
long-term incentive plan for abig company that was going to
(47:44):
exit and we put the number infront of people three times a
year.
If we sell in two years at thisamount, here's your Right.
Yeah, really, being specific, alot of changing money.
Big meaningful numbers Like gopay your home off yeah, right,
sure, big meaningful numbers.
And at the end of the day, whatwe found was people would leave
(48:09):
the job for a different rolewhere they were going to make
20% more salary yeah, or 10%,and with no glory.
Speaker 4 (48:21):
And with no glory.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
No, honor yes exactly .
Speaker 3 (48:27):
It's a mentality, it's a mindset.
It's a unique person Sure Tostay latched on to that mindset.
It's a unique person Sure Tostay latched onto that vision.
And not everybody has it.
And you can't build a team fullof people Like there's not
enough of them.
You can't build a team full ofpeople.
I hope your team's notlistening.
I'm sure you guys are all great.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
They will be listening.
I'll require them to listen.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
I'll make them all listen, but they will be
listening, I'll require them tolisten, I'll make that all this
good, but they're they should,they should.
It's just not a.
That's not how everybody'swired and at the end of the day,
and look, I actually want todefend the person a little bit,
like there are some people thatjust their life is oriented
around different things andthat's okay.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
But they need to.
It's okay, but they need toknow who they are and, more
importantly, we need to know whothey are.
You're right, hey wow.
This has really been a greatdiscussion and I'm very
impressed with Ben's insight andthought process.
So if anybody wants to get ahold of you, how do they do so?
Speaker 3 (49:31):
Easiest.
You know well this is going tobe ironic, given our pregame
conversation.
The easiest way is to shoot mea note on LinkedIn.
Speaker 4 (49:37):
No problem, Just don't start with just how was
your day?
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Yeah, be really clear .
Just don't try to sell Benanything, cause I'm not, cause
we're all getting those.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Or you can go check out our website cornerstonecocom
, and you can go check out ourwebsite cornerstonecocom, and
you can.
You can find me pretty easythere.
I'm, I'm, I'm not too hard tofind.
Speaker 4 (49:56):
In closing, what is one piece of advice that you
would give to an entrepreneur?
Like, and just a quick snippet,like a all right, let's look.
Here's the case.
If I'm I'm in a largecorporation, I have had a dream
to start a company.
I can't decide whether I wantto take the step or not, but I'm
miserable here and I seehappiness, or at least glory and
(50:19):
honor, strength and honor instarting my own business.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
What's your advice?
Speaker 3 (50:24):
So two different pieces of advice one for
somebody that might make thejump and one for somebody that's
already in the journey.
One for somebody that mightmake the jump and one for
somebody that's already in thejourney.
So for somebody that might makethe jump, if you've had the
nagging dream and it's not goinganywhere, take the daggum risk.
Go do it Like, go for it.
You know, like, if you've had afleeting, half serious, half
baked thought, keep your day job, okay, you don't need to go do
(50:46):
it.
But, like, if this is real andit's deep in you, take the jump,
the need.
Go do it Like.
So that's number one.
We like that.
Number two for the person that'sin the journey I'm going to
steal from my own world To thineown self.
Be true, to thine own self.
(51:06):
Be true, like, if you're in theentrepreneurial journey, be
really real with yourself aboutwhere you're at in the journey.
Like, what, what?
Where's the business going?
Is it producing the life foryou that you actually want?
Do you have line of sight towhere you're trying to go in the
future?
Are you, are you losing toomuch outside of work?
Are you or are you content withwhere you're like?
(51:28):
Are you or are you content withwhere you're like just be
really freaking real withyourself about where the
business is and and findsomebody that you can share that
with, like whether that's amentor, somebody else that's on
the entrepreneurial journey, uh,or a coach, whatever.
Find somebody that you can getinto that a little bit with.
Speaker 4 (51:48):
It's great.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
It's good.
Well, this has been a lot offun.
It has been.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
Hey, thanks for taking a risk and letting me
jump on the show with you guys.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
We really appreciate your being here.
It's been great, so until nextweek.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
I'm so nervous about the sign-off guys.
I've been worried about thissince the beginning.
You should have been.
You can do it.
I'm going to do my best I'mtrying to flow.
I want to show you the hopewhat's that one of the words,
the energizing hope man.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
I'm going to read you some energizing hope.
Speaker 3 (52:18):
You can do it.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Ben, I know, come on, so until next week.
There's been another episode of.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
Big Talk About Small Business at
bigtalkaboutsmallbusinesscom andclick on the Ask the Host
button for the chance to haveyour questions answered on the
show.
Stay connected with us onLinkedIn at Big Talk About Small
Business and be sure to headover to our website to read
articles, browse episodes andask questions about upcoming
shows.
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