February 20, 2024 • 46 mins
Join Aaron Pete and Evan Solomon as they delve into the transformative role of media, exploring the evolution from the printing press to digital platforms, the power of narrative control, and the dynamics of Canadian political discourse, highlighting Solomon's transition from digital media pioneer to influential geopolitical analyst and the critical role of curiosity and debate in molding society.
Evan Solomon, a seasoned journalist and author with a career spanning digital media, political reporting, and television hosting, including CTV's Power Play and Question Period, now leads GZERO Media and contributes to Eurasia Group's management. His work, from hosting national political programs to writing award-nominated books on energy and food crises, reflects a deep engagement with global politics and societal issues, balanced by personal interests in music, sports, and family life as a McGill University alumnus and parent.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aaron Pete (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger
than Me podcast.
Here is your host, aaron.
You are in for a real treattoday, so please consider
showing your support by liking,commenting and subscribing.
I am a huge fan of today'sguest.
He was the host of CTVPowerplay and did an interview
with Ellis Ross that inspired meto consider running for council
(00:21):
for my First Nation communityand made me passionate about the
interview and process.
I am speaking with thepublisher of GZero Media, a
special correspondent with CTVand a member of the Eurasia
Groups Management Committee.
My guest today is Evan Solomon.
Evan, I have been lookingforward to this interview I kid
you not for two years now and Iam so excited to sit down with
(00:43):
you.
Would you mind introducingyourself for people who might
not be acquainted with your work?
Evan Solomon (00:48):
Well, first of all , aaron, awesome to be here,
really great to chat and it's areal pleasure.
I'm Evan Solomon.
I am now the publisher of GZeroMedia, so I run a media company
in New York City that's basedon politics and we have
television shows on PBS, we havepodcasts, we run eight
international newsletters and Ioversee all that.
(01:11):
I'm also on the seniormanagement team of a company
called Eurasia Group, which isrun by Ian Bremmer, a very
famous sort of geopoliticalscientist, and we have a couple
of offices around the world andwe really focus on geopolitical
analysis, and I'm the formerhost of CTV's Power Play and
Question Period and a radio show.
(01:32):
So I'm just in my first year ofliving in New York City after
moving from Ottawa.
In my post-CTV days, Brilliant.
Aaron Pete (01:43):
Well, I'm going to ask you to take us all the way
back to somewhat of thebeginning.
You have a background inEnglish literature and religious
studies.
Would you mind talking abouthow that might connect with your
life today and what you tookaway from that?
Evan Solomon (01:56):
Yeah, it's an interesting story.
When my dad was alive he'd saythose degrees won't buy you a
cup of tea, what are you doing?
But he was very supportive, youknow.
The truth is that I was alwaysinterested in how we are defined
by the stories we tellourselves and countries, and
(02:20):
culture plays a major role indefining who we are.
And what is culture really?
As the great Canadian politicaltheorist and scientist, cad
Homer Dixon likes to say,culture is really just a set of
instructions that one generationpasses on to the next
generation as to how to be, howto act, what to do, and
(02:45):
sometimes we get that throughreligion.
That was really the vehicle ofthe instruction manual for
centuries and I really wanted tounderstand that.
And it was through writing andthe stories that societies told
each other, whether organized ina religious form or in a
political form, and the battlehas always been the battle over
who gets to write the code, whois in control of the pen.
(03:07):
That's why you know, whenGutenberg invents the printing
press, it's such a massive issuebecause all of a sudden other
people outside of the big powerauthorities have control over
the pen and who can startwriting lines of code.
And then you get the MartinLuther, the revolution, the
Protestant revolution.
(03:28):
Hey, he nails the 99 theses atWittenberg and it's like boom.
The control of the Catholicchurch changes dramatically and
the story of colonialism changes.
Who gets to write people'sstory?
What matters?
Who's defined as a person?
Who's defined as by law?
Who writes the laws?
We're still fighting theseevery single day.
(03:49):
Who has the rights to land?
Who's got the right to use whatbathroom?
Who has?
Does the government have theright to impose a tax or not?
Does the government have theright to build a pipeline or not
?
Do you have to have the rightsto be able to throw your garbage
here or here?
So the lines of code arecodified in our laws and I
(04:12):
really wanted to understand thatat the root and I was taking
politics and sociology andEnglish and religious studies
and when I veered into religionpeople thought I was nuts.
This was really in the yearsafter this great sociologist
Like I don't want to get allnerdy here, aaron, but there's a
guy who's still around.
(04:32):
Yeah, let's go the name FrancisFukuyama, who, by the way, we
just I say this because we justhad him on our GZERO television
show on PBS but even as a kid,like young and studying.
He wrote a book called the Endof History, or like a thesis
called the End of History, andit became huge in political
circles, like history is comingan end, liberal democracies are
(04:53):
the final iteration of all ourevolution and kind of everyone
just wants the same stuff.
Now it turned out to be wrong.
Lots of people clearly wantdifferent things and we're still
fighting those battles all thetime.
But there was a moment whereeveryone was like that's it.
You know, there's theories liketwo countries with a McDonald's
and it would never go to warwith each other because they all
want the same stuff.
Turns out that was kind ofnaive.
(05:15):
Globalization is going to begreat for everyone.
Turns out that was kind ofnaive.
It has good things and badthings and I thought I know what
?
And religion was like no onewants you know religions, as
people are just going to outgrowall these irrational beliefs.
And I just thought that was alittle naive.
And so I started to studyreligion to see how societies
(05:36):
were formed around, what peoplebelieve, and that eventually led
me to politics.
And here we are.
I'll just say one last thingabout politics, trying to
understand the age ofdisinformation, conspiracy
theories, people havingdifferent views of what they
believe, no one trustinganything.
What's the dominant narrative?
We're still fighting thesebattles about.
(05:58):
What is the story that webelieve that is shaping our
actions, who we are, ouridentities, the political tribes
that we join and the world thatwe want to live in and how we
act towards one another.
And the battle for the pen hasexploded now with AI and
disinformation and who controlsit and who trusts the authorship
(06:19):
.
And we are still in that fight,maybe more than ever today.
So I really feel like thethings that I studied are more
relevant than ever Now.
Of course, over the last manydecades, filtering that through
politics has been really thestory of my life.
Aaron Pete (06:38):
I suspect that through this process you
developed a way of understandingthe world and a logical system
for kind of taking ininformation as you start to
become skeptical of what you'rebeing told.
What do you think some of yourbig takeaways on kind of
ingesting information and tryingto absorb it and then
understand your own worldviewhow do you think that came about
?
Evan Solomon (06:59):
So it's a great question, aaron.
There's no answer in the sensethat it's a process.
You know, I think it'simportant to have a framework.
I always describe myself as askeptical optimist.
As a journalist, I'm notcynical, but I'm skeptical.
Right, that's my job.
I shouldn't be saying, oh, thegovernment says this or someone
in power says that.
(07:20):
Skepticism does not mean youbelieve anything.
It means you probe and ask forproof.
It means you do believe infacts, you do want some proofs,
you do want something verifiable.
You should be skeptical.
We should be naive enough toknow we've seen too many things
and we're all too experiencedenough to just take things on
face value.
So a healthy skepticism.
(07:43):
But my big takeaway is,skepticism should not give way
to cynicism.
In other words, you know you'realways going to get the short
end of the stick.
Nothing is good, you're goingto get ripped off, don't trust
anyone, don't trust your doctor,your pilot, don't trust
anything, don't trust anexpertise, and that turns into
this culture war againsteverything and your opponents
become your enemies.
(08:03):
That's the inevitable tragedyof cynicism.
Whereas a skeptical optimist isa healthy skeptic, a critical
thinker, ask questions.
But you're optimistic that ifyou do ask questions and if you
do have a healthy debate and ifdialogue and debate happens, the
best things will emerge.
Real solutions will come fromhealthy debate.
(08:28):
And I'm optimistic.
You know I've been doing thisfor a long time and I am
optimistic that the species cansolve our problems and we can do
better, despite a lot ofevidence to the country.
There's lots of evidence andI'm not being naive that in the
last, you know, 75 years postwar, things have been better
than ever for most people.
Again, I'm not suggestingeveryone's life is better in
(08:51):
individually or they haven'tbeen horrible conflicts, but on
the whole, the statisticalpeople living in poverty, child
mortality rates, curing ofdisease, all those things have
gotten better.
And so I'm optimistic thatworking together this species is
good, and that's my healthylesson.
And through democracies, healthydemocracies and healthy debate
(09:14):
and some.
But I'm still a skeptic aboutthings.
I don't like to be, you know,taken for granted and that's why
I spent my life hammeringpeople in power, asking
questions.
I'm not fundamentally apartisan guy by nature and
that's why I'm in this job, butI am an optimistic person that
if we keep asking questions, wetake no BS, we get our facts
(09:37):
right, we hold the powerful toaccount, we make sure that
everyone's got an opportunity Toask questions and access to
power.
That's a pretty good check andbalance against abuse, fear, and
we can move forward a bit.
So that I think would be my, myhealthiest lesson skeptical
optimism.
Aaron Pete (09:57):
The other piece that you mentioned that I just want
to follow up on is you mentionedthe Gutenberg revolution, the
printing press, all of thoseprocesses.
Jordan Peterson has describedpodcasting in YouTube as the
next Gutenberg revolution, inthat we can now have long form
conversations.
Politicians are now gettingmore comfortable with our long
interviews, rather than eightminute clips of Of what they're
(10:18):
saying or really quick scrums.
They're starting to understandthat the landscape is somewhat
changing.
How do you feel about this bigchange where any goober with a
podcast is able to now get onthe airwaves and start to share
their perspectives?
Evan Solomon (10:31):
I think it's great and it's democratic, and the
barriers to entry into thenational dialogue should be low.
So let's be clear thedemocratization of access to the
pan and I talked about, whichis what Gutenberg started in,
and we're seeing what somepeople would call like the hyper
(10:53):
speciation of it, like it'sgoing crazy.
Now everyone's doing it.
That's fantastic, but itdoesn't mean everyone's doing it
well.
Right, let's be clear the factthat everyone can do something
doesn't mean everyone is doingit well, and that doesn't mean
that we should give up standards.
Democracy is not about thegiving up of standards and in
the giving away of the mob.
(11:14):
Democracy is about everyonehaving an opportunity to set
standards and to make sure thatthose standards lead to an
outcome that's best for as manypeople as possible.
That's the goal and we shouldbe very careful.
One of the challenges that welive today is standards have
completely fallen.
(11:38):
We used to talk in Canada a lotabout the two solitudes.
Probably should have talkedabout the three solitudes French
, english, indigenousCommunities.
People didn't talk to eachother, they didn't have shared
stories, share languages andthey just lived in these sort of
three mega silos, and then youhad all sorts of other immigrant
communities that were coming inand they had their own mini
(11:58):
silos.
The two solitudes pointed to alot of problems, but despite the
fact that we've got this youknow revolution, where everybody
has a podcast and a Twitterspace I think that's great.
We're also more alone than ever, in the sense that we live in
(12:19):
echo chambers.
We don't have two solitudes orthree solitudes.
We have multiple realities.
People on people on the leftare only wanting to listen to
things on the left, and echoPeople on the right only want to
listen to the right.
So it's not like you and I arereading the same couple of
newspapers and debating and yousay, evan, I don't agree with
that.
And I said, aaron, well, whynot?
And we have this kind of debatewithin this kind of realm of
(12:41):
facts and you want more of thisand I want less of that, and you
want less of that and I want.
That's what politics and thedemocracy used to be.
Now people say I don't even knowwhat you're talking about.
I don't believe your basicfacts.
The sky to you is blue.
My truth is the sky to you isblue.
My truth is the sky has polkadots.
(13:03):
You're like what I don't aslike, well, sorry, buddy, and
then you don't even, and I onlygo to.
Sky is polka dot dot com.
That's my world, that's myYouTube channel and my Twitter
feed and my tick doc channel.
So I think there's real problemswith disinformation, real
problem with a lack of consensus, real problem with the war on
reason, real problem with thequote war on the person that
(13:26):
disagrees with you.
So I don't necessarily want toopenly celebrate the fact that,
yes, it's great that everyone'sgot access, wonderful, but OK,
that's the perfect democraticright, everyone's got an
opportunity.
But everyone's not doesn't havethe same abilities.
Right, and this is the funnything about often on the right
(13:48):
they say well, this is great,there's no more.
Don't trust the elites and theleft to empower and the.
But these are the very samepeople who have always argued
that there shouldn't just be aeveryone has the same.
Remember there's.
We need to give everyone thesame opportunity.
We should guarantee people thesame opportunity.
(14:08):
You and I might have the sameopportunities, but we don't
necessarily want to guaranteethe same outcomes.
Right, because outcomes shoulddepend on how smart you are, how
talented you are, how hard youwork.
That's also part of it.
Right, there's a baseline ofoutcome.
Right, like we have societiesall about.
Let's have a baseline.
Like I don't know if I'm goingto live or die.
(14:29):
This is like natural law stuff.
If I'm born very poor, in veryunfortunate circumstances, I
should have the right to aneducation.
I should have the right tohealth care.
Right, there's certain basesthat you and I would agree on.
Right, we want the mostdisadvantaged person to have a
base level, but we don't want topunish someone who's say, well,
you should also have the sameoutcome as, like the most
(14:51):
brilliant musician in the world.
No, like talent deserves it'sonly words as well.
So that's the same.
In media, all voices ain'tequal.
Some are prevent crap and Somecountries like China and Russia
are.
They know this.
They're poisoning up river andthey're feeding disinformation
(15:14):
To try to destroy democracy.
So we gotta be careful and notnaive and say it's great because
it ain't I.
Aaron Pete (15:21):
Agree with you that resumes aren't all created equal
, and one piece that I actuallywant to ask about is in the
1990s you co-founded shiftmagazine, wrote a novel called
crossing the distance, hostedshows on CBC called change
makers, future world and hottype.
I'm wondering the work thatgoes into developing your skill
sets.
You were willing to go in somany different directions and
(15:42):
try things.
What can you reflect on thatperiod of your life and what you
took away from it?
Evan Solomon (15:47):
I'm also reflecting on the depth of your
research.
You're really this these aredeep cuts.
Yeah, first of all, thanks forthat.
That's, it's, it's.
It is a pleasure to kind ofthink about that time and and,
and I really appreciate youasking about that and I also
sort of feel bad for you thatyou had to dig through all that
(16:07):
stuff.
Aaron Pete (16:08):
No, it's fantastic.
I admire people who are willingto do all of those different
directions, because we live in aworld right now where people
are not, as I feel like, eagerto set the standard and to go
above what other people arewilling to do, and like going
from a book to TV to writingmagazine, like those are so many
different Directions and Ireally admire your willingness
to be multifaceted.
Evan Solomon (16:30):
You know it's interesting, when I was in my
20s I was restless Right and Idecided not to go to law school.
My dad was a lawyer and I, andyou know I always called that
the car wash.
They don't like if you do itright, you know you don't screw
up, you enter the car wash, youknow you don't sort of try to
drive the car.
(16:50):
There's a path that you cancome out the other side and
things gonna work out.
But I I was like, okay, I haveto do a different path and you
know I wanted to make sure itsucceeded.
I didn't wasn't quite sure whatthe path was, my path.
But I had a best friend fromuniversity, andrew Heinzman, and
we sat down and we had threeideas.
One, we want to start amagazine because we want to tell
(17:13):
stories, you want, we want tobe writers.
And.
And Two, we wanted to start, wewant to get into politics.
So we thought we should maybestart our own political party
because we didn't trust thepoliticians sound familiar.
And Three, we wanted to start abusiness because we were very
interested in politics, businessand media.
(17:33):
Those were our three passionsand we we had a business idea of
Finding products that wereefficiently made and labeling
them that and this was like along time ago.
So were they made efficiently?
So, analyzing the mostefficiently made and and whether
it was environmentally or workor whatever, the best companies,
(17:54):
in finding a way and peoplewould really be attracted to
companies that were really good.
And we ended up starting acompany called shift and we got
lucky, because you know well, itstarted about literature,
because we're interested in thismemory.
I was saying at the beginning ofthis, the story of who we are.
That was that this was like the90s and the internet was just
(18:17):
Starting and I had worked as ajournalist in Hong Kong for a
year and when I was therewriting for the South China
Morning Post, I had done a storyon the very first Internet
thing and I think it was.
It was before aOL.
They said, evan, can you figurethis out?
And I didn't really understandit.
It was like a bulletin board,it was called.
(18:39):
It was really like this wasreally before the graphic user
interface.
This was really early and itwas fascinating.
And then, when we started thismagazine, another guy who was
working with us, mark Highland,said you know, we should, this
is a revolution.
We should.
We should change our magazineand and start Chronically the
birth of a new technology,because it's going to transform
(19:00):
everything.
And we did and shift becamekind of the first magazine.
We were the first magazine tosell internet ads, the first
magazine online with thebulletin board.
We became kind of the Canadianwired and I remember when we got
our first investors, which wereMcLean Hunter.
We, I mean remember we startedwith six hundred dollars, just
so you know, yeah, we used toplay concerts and bars every
(19:23):
quarter and hold big concerts.
My partner was a great musician.
I loved music, play very badguitar and so joined the band as
a pity for them, but they wereactually very good musicians and
To raise money.
So like we were young but itcaught fire because there was a
revolution and when we finallygot some investors, like I
(19:45):
remember there's a companycalled McLean Hunter which is
now Rogers, and they were buying20% of us and we were in the
big boardroom.
I mean I remember the guys whohad cuff links.
Their cuff links were worthmore than like our entire
company.
Like we were so nervous and andwe were gonna sell it and we
really love business and Andyand I were at this big corporate
(20:07):
boardroom, one of the guys withthose cuff links, and we were
saying you know, this internetthing is gonna change the world
and our magazines at theforefront and it's gonna make TV
and radio and Search andmagazines and you guys have to
get involved in this.
And the CEO of the companythought we were on to something
and he said, well, why don't webuy 20% of this company to see
if these kids know what they'retalking about?
And the other guys were likethey're all guys.
(20:29):
And One of them said he wasBritish.
And he said to us Boys, if weunderstand you correctly, this
internet thing is going to besomething of a religion, which
was perfect for me, right?
And I remember Andy and Ilooked at each other and we said
, yeah, it's gonna be kind oflike that, it's gonna be that
(20:52):
big.
And they chuckled, but theybought it and we ended up buying
them out.
But that's how we started shiftmagazine and that turned into a
TV show and then, because wewere the first people to really
cover it, cbc then approached meto do a program, a weekly show
called Future World, to talkabout this crazy new technology,
(21:12):
and they the producer, andrewJohnson Cast me.
I was about 25 years old andand we had done a television
show on Rogers Community cablethat called shift television,
and then I I auditioned for thisshow it was 12 episodes they
were gonna do and I got the job.
I looked at like I was abouteight and I did get this job to
(21:35):
do this weekly interview show ontechnology and ideas and it
ended up doing 42 shows thefirst year.
It was a big hit and then I didit for almost eight or nine
years and then we shifted to hottype.
So so in my 20s our magazinekind of exploded.
We went from you sort of two ofus and then three of us to, I
think, 45 or more.
(21:55):
And you know our company wasgrowing rapidly.
We got investors, I was doing aweekend show on CBC, I was
writing a novel that I publishedEventually with McCollum and
Stewart, and so, yeah, I'm thelesson.
There Aaron was.
I was so young and so dumb andso naive that I didn't know what
(22:16):
I had to lose.
And Andy was the same and youknow we weren't married, we
didn't have kids, we had nothingto lose.
So if we went broke and wealmost went broke a lot it
didn't matter.
It's not like, if I went broke,how am I gonna feed my kids?
I always say this to people inCanada young people in your 20s,
(22:36):
when you've got no experienceand no money, it's the best time
to be an entrepreneur.
You're gonna make mistakes,you're gonna be the CEO and the
janitor, but it's and the stakesare low.
And we were told something fromthe founder of wired magazine
and we eventually were modeledlike they started after us.
So we used to meet them becausewe were doing the same thing in
Canada and Lewis Rosetto saidto us something that we put in
(23:00):
our Magazine has been a mantraGuys, make sure when you try
something, it's so ambitiousthat if you fail, you fail
upwards.
In other words, you're gonna,you're gonna learn so much
that's gonna leave you ahead.
So don't try something small,because if you fail and you're
scared, it's just gonna bemeaningless.
Fail up, and Fail up was agreat mantra for a young person
(23:23):
who was an entrepreneur.
You know, and I could just tellyou one last thing, aaron, when
we had some great young writersClive Thompson, who writes for
the New York Times, and you know, sheila Hetty, one of the great
writers in the world right now.
Daniel Richley, who just did thebook with Getty Lee, a great
writer, ian Brown, likeeverybody wrote for us.
(23:45):
It was fantastic and theyinspired us.
There was a young generationand they inspired us and, and
you know, all of these peoplewere taking a risk and we just
found our community and that wasreally, really, that was really
inspiring for us, because andthat first moment I remember
(24:07):
after I don't know how manyyears, when we got Healthcare
and medical care for ouremployees, like you know, I
remember where one of the guysgot glasses, who's in his 20s
and he's like I can't, but likewe gave a healthcare system,
like I, like you know, employeebenefits, like can you imagine?
We were like playing in barsone year and then we're giving
benefits.
Yeah, though, that meantsomething and that helped us
(24:30):
understand the practicality ofstarting a business, and now I'm
back in business now and andthose lessons really paid off.
Aaron Pete (24:36):
What was the transition into journalism?
Evan Solomon (24:41):
I mean it was right at.
You know, I was the editor ofmy school newspaper in high
school.
I mean I was into sports but Iwas also into journalism and
writing, really into writing.
In university I was really intowriting and different things.
And then, right after Igraduated from my master's, I
(25:02):
went to Hong Kong.
Well, we started this magazine.
And then I went to Hong Kong towork as a freelance journalist
for a year, with the deal thatafter a year I would come back
and we'd go full time on themagazine.
So my transition intojournalism and business was
immediate.
Aaron Pete (25:17):
And what do you think during all of this time?
What do you think makes a goodjournalist?
Evan Solomon (25:24):
It's a great question.
When I was, my first job as ajournalist was as a professional
journalist was the South ChinaMorning Post.
And here's how my first and Ididn't go to journalism school
and I land in Hong Kong and I'mworking at a freight forwarding
company for a month.
A Chinese freight forwardingcompany and I was.
(25:44):
They wouldn't pay me till theend of the month.
So I had to try to and I knew Iwas going to quit because I
wanted to be a journalist, but Ididn't know how.
I was wandering around thestreet and this American woman,
thea Clapp well, I remember it.
I mean the Wan Chai market, I'm21.
And I'm wandering around theWan Chai market in Hong Kong.
I don't know anybody, not onesingle person in Hong Kong.
(26:05):
And this woman comes up to me.
She's probably a couple of 25.
And she said are you lost?
And I said kind of.
And she said what do you do?
And I said I'm a journalist,complete BS.
Because I'd only written stuffLike I'd started this magazine.
We got like two issues.
And she says oh, I work at theSouth China Morning Post.
(26:27):
Here's my card, call me.
And she walked away.
She was that kind of.
So I called her and she saidcall my editor.
So I called this editor and Isaid, hi, I'm Evan Solomon, I'm
a freelancer.
And he said what do you knowabout Hong Kong pension fund
situation?
And I said everything.
And he said, great, I need 800words by tomorrow morning.
(26:47):
I said, great, do you have anyleads?
I've just arrived.
He goes, yeah, call this bank.
So now, remember, this was theinternet, wasn't?
This is the 90s, before you getus to Google it.
So I am and I'll be honest withyou, I didn't even know what a
pension fund was.
So my first professionalquestion as a journalist was to
this bank that these guys gaveme the lead and they said hi.
(27:09):
I said hello, my name is EvanSolomon, I'm calling from the
South China Post, south ChinaMorning Post.
What is a pension fund?
That was my first question as aprofessional journalist and the
person didn't.
They were so nervous like, well, of course you know a pension
fund is.
And I was like slow it down,I'm taking notes.
And I said do you have anycontacts?
(27:30):
And I delivered my first 700word piece the next morning,
which they couldn't believe it,because in Hong Kong at the time
they used to call people whowere there.
This was before it went back tothe Chinese.
Filth failed in London, tryHong Kong.
So there was a bunch of Britspartying there, and that's what
they were called at the time.
The filth failed in London, tryHong Kong.
(27:53):
So funny.
And so I got another storyabout the diamond trade, and I
was so, and then I just so.
The first thing is courage toask questions.
And then later that year Iinterviewed Larry King, who was
a big television journalist inthe United States, and I said,
(28:13):
mr King, what is the secret tojournalism?
And he said just be curious.
And I legitimately rememberthinking at the time that's so
stupid.
Like, isn't it preparation, anddon't you have to be really
smart?
And I really thought this guy'sjust one of these dumb
television journalists.
And then I realized he'sexactly right Curiosity, asking
(28:35):
questions, active listening andthen telling a good story,
avoiding cliches, trying to tellan honest story that people
will listen to because it'sfresh, it's new, it's connected,
it's authentic.
And that's the thing about beinga journalist Don't be afraid to
ask a question.
There's no dumb questions.
(28:55):
There's no dumb questions there.
But you have to have thecourage to ask the hard question
and you have to be preparedenough to know, like in politics
in the job that I was doing atPower and Politics, or Powerplay
or Question Period, you have toreally know your stuff because
you have to know when they'reBSing and spinning and you have
to call out their stuff.
So that's where curiosity meetspreparation in political
(29:20):
journalism.
Aaron Pete (29:22):
That's a really good answer and very thoughtful.
I'm wondering if there's astandout interview.
When you look back on all ofthe work you've done, a
conversation you had that standsout above the rest.
Evan Solomon (29:35):
Oh gosh, Aaron, I mean not really one.
There's a lot.
Sometimes there's an encounterthat changes you.
It's not just the most famousperson I've been very fortunate
to interview prime ministers andpresidents and celebrities and
all that but sometimes I'm justinterviewing people.
(29:56):
You're in the tsunami and BandaAceh and 50,000 people are dead
and you go into a hospital andyou see someone whose family's
gone and you have a tinyencounter that will stay with
you longer than any sort ofwisdom that the prime minister
said in your end of yourinterview on Powerplay.
(30:16):
So I really think that you haveto be careful.
Privilege Every conversationhas something in it.
Every encounter is reallyimportant.
Every person that your, everystory you tell, is great.
I've done national news andlocal radio and I love them all.
(30:39):
I mean, I like what I dobecause I like people, I like
telling stories, I like tellingtheir story and sometimes you
have long relationships.
Yusuf Fakiri, the brother ofSali Fakiri, whose brother was
arrested in December of 2016 andsent to the Eastern Ontario
(31:01):
Correctional Facility in Lindsay, Ontario, and was dead 11 days
later with 50 contusions.
I've been covering that storysince 2016.
I'm still very close to YusufFakiri, His the inquiry in the
last month just found out thatit was homicide.
They've been fighting for sevenyears for that and I still know
(31:21):
that family very well, so thatmatters Talking to a writer like
Richard Ford.
He was a great American writerand I was really young and he
was a very powerful man, deepvoice, like great voice.
I sound like a choked chickenand he sounds like the Lion King
(31:45):
and he's a big guy and he hadpiercing blue eyes, he was a
southerner and he had won lotsof literary prizes and he'd
written famous novels.
And I guess I'd said somethingthat he didn't like.
And he's the kind of guy justso you know that when he didn't
like a review of someone, hewould hammer it on the side of a
(32:07):
tree and then shoot it with ashotgun and mail it to the
critic.
So he's literally that guy.
So I said something that hedidn't like and I said this
seems like a very RichardFordian thing.
And he looked at me on cameraand he, right into the lens, he
said that's the dumbest questionI've ever heard.
So I thought I was so cleverand I said well, richard, you
(32:32):
seem to be getting verydefensive, which is a real
strategy, as you know.
As an interviewer, you know toturn the question back on
someone.
And I, for a split second, Ifelt very clever, like this is
great, it's good TV.
And I quickly, you know, whipthe ball back to you and now
you're going to look like you'rea defensive.
And he looked at me and saidsomething that did change my
(32:54):
life and he looked right at mewith those eyes and he said I am
defensive, that's because Ihave something to defend.
What about you?
I was a really smart linebecause it got me over the
glibness of journalism and itmade me realize that if I'm
(33:16):
going to do something, I want todefend it.
And you see, nowadays, whenpeople hate journalists and I
often engage on Twitter withpeople who say you know, you're
a phony or you did this or youguys are paid off and I'm like
look, I'm not being defensive, Ihave something to defend.
I work hard for those stories.
I believe in it.
What you're saying is not trueand if I made a mistake, I'll
(33:36):
own it.
I have no issue with that.
But I also go out there andtalk to people.
So, whether it's the truckerprotest in Ottawa, like I think
of Richard Ford and I'm like youknow, I don't mind defending
that stuff because I wanted,since that moment, to make sure
that the work I have to do isthe work I believe in and I'll
defend.
I'm not going to be perfect.
I'm going to screw up.
(33:56):
Everyone does.
You know, we're not perfectpeople and when you do, you own
it, but you should create workthat you can defend and when
someone says you're gettingdefensive about it, you should,
like Richard Ford, say, yeah,it's worth defending because it
merits.
We worked hard for this me, myteam, my community.
(34:17):
So I don't mind.
Not, I don't mean go to war, Idon't mean tack it to a tree and
shoot it with a shotgun, but Ido mean it's okay to defend the
work if you are doing work youbelieve in.
And that was a really goodpiece of advice from a smart guy
.
Aaron Pete (34:34):
That was a really good piece of advice, and it can
be so challenging to walk sucha sensitive line of asking the
important question or therelevant question or the
question people want to hear,but doing that in a respectful
and thoughtful way.
So I'm going to try and do thatright now and ask you about
your experience leaving the CBCand if you have any reflections
(34:55):
that you'd be willing to shareon that.
Evan Solomon (34:57):
Yeah, I mean it was a very widely told story, as
you know, and the CBC and Isettled in and part of that is
that we don't talk about thedetails on it and I've never
said a bad word about CBC.
My way through all this stuffand very different than the
culture today where people seemto yell about everything is I
(35:21):
was very open about it.
I dealt with it right away andwe reached a good agreement.
But I will say the best.
I mean, look, it wasn't an easytime.
I'm not going to sugarcoat itand be inauthentic and say it
all worked out.
It was a shock and it was adifficult moment, but the thing
(35:41):
that I really, whatever I wasone of the reasons I never spoke
much about.
It was not my style to complain.
But secondly, whatever I said,you know people are going to
take a position on and I knewthat the best response is what
would I do next?
Right, because then it's notbiased.
(36:04):
People could.
The facts will speak tothemselves, you know.
So, for whatever people said orthought or whatever the
allegations were, I'm like OK,that happened.
Obviously I have my view on it,but here's what happened next.
Then, a couple of weeks, I waswriting a column on McLean's, I
had a show on serious exam.
I was a regular panelist onglobal with Tom Clark hosting
(36:28):
the show.
I hosted the Rogers electioncoverage and then I was at CTV
hosting the radio and power playand question period in the Evan
Solomon show.
So what that says is OK, forwhatever some may have said,
(36:49):
everyone else looked into it andoffered me jobs and I ended up
having a great job.
So what was great about it is Iwas externally validated and
it's just not my way to dissanybody.
I have no bad things to sayabout people.
I'm trying to move forward withmy actions and my work and I
(37:10):
continue to work and I love it.
And I will say this.
I say this to people If you'rehitting home runs your whole
life, you're going to get hit inthe face with a pitch.
Occasionally that happens.
Get up, and my dad gave me thebest inheritance shrink the rear
view mirror and grow thewindshield Like.
It doesn't mean forget.
It doesn't mean be bitter, itdoesn't mean don't reflect.
(37:33):
It just means the road ahead islong and keep working.
And I've been very lucky, very,very fortunate to have, since
CBC, to have worked eightfantastic years at CTV and I
continue.
You know I'm still acorrespondent at CTV Today.
I did episode of CTV, as I doevery single week.
(37:57):
So I still work with thosefolks and lots of other media.
So, look, it's part of life.
It's a long road and you climbthe mountain.
There's going to be a fewstumbles and that's.
I'm not the only.
I'll tell you, in a world thatyou and I are looking at, I am
hardly a victim.
You pick yourself up and youmove along and I'm better for it
(38:19):
.
So I'm a happy guy.
Aaron Pete (38:23):
I couldn't agree more.
I think there is journeys, andeverything that happened brought
you over to CTV and it ended upas I described to you before we
started inspiring me.
Watching your interview on TVwith Ellis Ross and Pam
Palmitter and the conversationthat was taking place there
while I was in law schoolinspired me.
(38:43):
That's the kind of work that Iwant to do.
I want to be a part of theseconversations.
I saw what Ellis Ross was sayingand I've interviewed him.
I talked about your interviewwith him and how that inspired
me and what he said and how itimpacted me, because there's two
different perspectives andthere's merit to both of them,
but one weighed so much more forme and that was that my
(39:03):
communities and poverty and thatwhen she wasn't willing to talk
about what members and whatcommunity members face every
single day and that that's theproblem, that didn't resonate
with me and what he said did,and so I went, graduated law
school, joined council and nowI'm working to repair the homes
in our community and improve theeconomic development in our
community.
And that's all largely based onbeing able to hear that
(39:26):
interview with him and justhearing his philosophy reflect
so perfectly onto me and inspireme.
So the work you're doing todayhas had a large influence on the
people who watch your show.
Evan Solomon (39:39):
I mean, I love.
I can't thank you enough fortelling me that it means a lot
and you always believe, and Ibelieve in my soul, that having
a healthy debate changespeople's minds right and can
change their life and can awakenan activism.
I had those same things as youdid and the fact that you
(40:04):
disagree with Pam Palmer andagreed with Ellis or someone
else watching may have agreedwith Pam and disagree with Ellis
Not what we want, like theability to disagree and pursue
the argument or the idea thatyou want is the very cornerstone
of our democracy.
Without having to hurt theother person, without having to
(40:27):
dismantle the other person'sintegrity, you can simply
dismantle their idea through theprocess of elections and
running for council.
That's what we need and toooften we're just afraid to
disagree, like I always likedthe passionate debate, I liked
it when people got at it becausethey give a dart, they care and
(40:48):
anyway I really appreciate thatand the work that I'm doing
here at GZERO, the work that Idid at CTV or CBC or anywhere,
continues to be about expressingideas hard, pressing people in
power hard and, you hope,bringing engagement of people
like you.
You become a lawyer and apodcaster and elected official
(41:08):
and you're a community builderand you're in the game and just
a circle back to what we started.
You grab hold of the pen andstart writing the instructions
for the next generation to seehow do we want to live and what
do we value and how does ourcommunity need to change.
And you've got yourself a holdof the pen.
That's pretty cool.
Aaron Pete (41:28):
Evan, you are a motivational person.
This has been one of the mostexciting interviews.
Would you mind please tellingpeople how they can follow your
work and keep up to date andstay informed as citizens?
Evan Solomon (41:38):
Well, right back at you, just for the record.
I mean, I love this podcast.
You've done great work.
You know, I was checking up onit before when you reached out,
and Vashi Capello's greatinterview with Vashi, who of
course, is doing power play anda question period, and the radio
show, as she followed in myfootsteps, and CTV and I think
(41:58):
actually at CBC.
I love Vashi and she's a friendof mine and your interview with
her was fantastic and you'rejust so probing and careful
about your questions and I justthink you're doing a great job.
So, first of all, thank you.
I love the entrepreneurialspirit of it, which I love Just
get in there and mix it up.
And so it was a real pleasureas a fellow entrepreneur to join
(42:22):
and support and at least bepart of your community.
So thank you and anytime If youwant to follow our geopolitical
coverage again, it's verynonpartisan, we mix it up.
We have these kind of debates.
Go to gzeromediacom.
You can sign up for our dailyfree newsletters.
We have them every morning.
(42:43):
You got them about geopolitics.
Ian Bremer writes one, we haveone on AI.
We have one on Canada US.
We have a weekly show in Canadaas well on PBS called GZERO
World, hosted by Ian Brammer.
So all that stuff is about.
Everything is political, whichI continue to love and pursue.
So, aaron, thanks.
Aaron Pete (43:04):
Thank you so much.
You were so easy to schedulewith and communicate with, and
you were so willing to do this,and that's such an honor coming
from someone who's trying togrow and trying to learn from
individuals like yourself.
So thank you for being sogracious with your time.
Best of luck, and I hope tochat again in the future.
Come down to New York.
Evan Solomon (43:20):
We need more Canada, thanks, perfect.
Tim McApline (43:26):
If you transported yourself back to June of 2020
and you're sitting down withJacob, your first guest, and you
looked forward and did you everthink you would hear the
sentence?
Yeah, I was checking out yourinterview with Bashee and
(43:49):
looking at your website andyou're doing really good at this
.
From Evan Solomon, like, wasthat in your wildest imagination
?
Aaron Pete (44:02):
If I'm being honest, not that specific, but I have
an expectation of myself that,yes, we would eventually hit the
point where people would beimpressed, and that's always
been the goal and I won't stopuntil I have the respect of the
people I admire most.
Tim McApline (44:23):
And then you're going to stop.
Is that what you're saying?
Aaron Pete (44:26):
I will only be open to retirement once we hit those
peaks.
I said 100 episodes minimum,but the goal is to hit a point
where I know that I've done thiswell and I think we're on that
path.
Tim McApline (44:47):
Yeah, that was pretty cool.
That was a really goodinterview.
Aaron Pete (44:50):
I couldn't agree more, and everything that I
hoped it'd be, and so much morethan I could have ever imagined.
Tim McApline (44:56):
Yeah, there's a certain charisma and just like
amplitude from an absolute pro,like and just and really
thoughtful questions.
Aaron Pete (45:07):
I love that.
Tim McApline (45:08):
Yeah, yeah, I love that when they're like whoa,
that's some deep cuts there,buddy, and you get a lot of very
good question.
Very good question.
That's all.
That's a somewhat of a stallingtechnique for them to recall,
but you do get about a lot,which is amazing.
Aaron Pete (45:26):
The goal is always to ask high quality questions
and take it from a differentperspective.
But there's so much that goesbehind the scenes of like.
Don't always vamp with a longintro to your question Sometimes
, but a lot of them are just Ijust want the answer to the
question, so I don't need tomake it 200 words.
I can say a 10 word question.
Tim McApline (45:48):
Well done.
Thank you very much.
Aaron Pete (45:51):
That was a great question from you too.
Thank you, appreciate it.
You're producing over the ice,yeah.
Tim McApline (45:59):
Yeah, I am.
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger
than Me podcast.
Here is your host, aaron.
You are in for a real treattoday, so please consider
showing your support by liking,commenting and subscribing.
I am a huge fan of today'sguest.
He was the host of CTVPowerplay and did an interview
with Ellis Ross that inspired meto consider running for council
(00:21):
for my First Nation communityand made me passionate about the
interview and process.
I am speaking with thepublisher of GZero Media, a
special correspondent with CTVand a member of the Eurasia
Groups Management Committee.
My guest today is Evan Solomon.
Evan, I have been lookingforward to this interview I kid
you not for two years now and Iam so excited to sit down with
(00:43):
you.
Would you mind introducingyourself for people who might
not be acquainted with your work?
Evan Solomon (00:48):
Well, first of all , aaron, awesome to be here,
really great to chat and it's areal pleasure.
I'm Evan Solomon.
I am now the publisher of GZeroMedia, so I run a media company
in New York City that's basedon politics and we have
television shows on PBS, we havepodcasts, we run eight
international newsletters and Ioversee all that.
(01:11):
I'm also on the seniormanagement team of a company
called Eurasia Group, which isrun by Ian Bremmer, a very
famous sort of geopoliticalscientist, and we have a couple
of offices around the world andwe really focus on geopolitical
analysis, and I'm the formerhost of CTV's Power Play and
Question Period and a radio show.
(01:32):
So I'm just in my first year ofliving in New York City after
moving from Ottawa.
In my post-CTV days, Brilliant.
Aaron Pete (01:43):
Well, I'm going to ask you to take us all the way
back to somewhat of thebeginning.
You have a background inEnglish literature and religious
studies.
Would you mind talking abouthow that might connect with your
life today and what you tookaway from that?
Evan Solomon (01:56):
Yeah, it's an interesting story.
When my dad was alive he'd saythose degrees won't buy you a
cup of tea, what are you doing?
But he was very supportive, youknow.
The truth is that I was alwaysinterested in how we are defined
by the stories we tellourselves and countries, and
(02:20):
culture plays a major role indefining who we are.
And what is culture really?
As the great Canadian politicaltheorist and scientist, cad
Homer Dixon likes to say,culture is really just a set of
instructions that one generationpasses on to the next
generation as to how to be, howto act, what to do, and
(02:45):
sometimes we get that throughreligion.
That was really the vehicle ofthe instruction manual for
centuries and I really wanted tounderstand that.
And it was through writing andthe stories that societies told
each other, whether organized ina religious form or in a
political form, and the battlehas always been the battle over
who gets to write the code, whois in control of the pen.
(03:07):
That's why you know, whenGutenberg invents the printing
press, it's such a massive issuebecause all of a sudden other
people outside of the big powerauthorities have control over
the pen and who can startwriting lines of code.
And then you get the MartinLuther, the revolution, the
Protestant revolution.
(03:28):
Hey, he nails the 99 theses atWittenberg and it's like boom.
The control of the Catholicchurch changes dramatically and
the story of colonialism changes.
Who gets to write people'sstory?
What matters?
Who's defined as a person?
Who's defined as by law?
Who writes the laws?
We're still fighting theseevery single day.
(03:49):
Who has the rights to land?
Who's got the right to use whatbathroom?
Who has?
Does the government have theright to impose a tax or not?
Does the government have theright to build a pipeline or not
?
Do you have to have the rightsto be able to throw your garbage
here or here?
So the lines of code arecodified in our laws and I
(04:12):
really wanted to understand thatat the root and I was taking
politics and sociology andEnglish and religious studies
and when I veered into religionpeople thought I was nuts.
This was really in the yearsafter this great sociologist
Like I don't want to get allnerdy here, aaron, but there's a
guy who's still around.
(04:32):
Yeah, let's go the name FrancisFukuyama, who, by the way, we
just I say this because we justhad him on our GZERO television
show on PBS but even as a kid,like young and studying.
He wrote a book called the Endof History, or like a thesis
called the End of History, andit became huge in political
circles, like history is comingan end, liberal democracies are
(04:53):
the final iteration of all ourevolution and kind of everyone
just wants the same stuff.
Now it turned out to be wrong.
Lots of people clearly wantdifferent things and we're still
fighting those battles all thetime.
But there was a moment whereeveryone was like that's it.
You know, there's theories liketwo countries with a McDonald's
and it would never go to warwith each other because they all
want the same stuff.
Turns out that was kind ofnaive.
(05:15):
Globalization is going to begreat for everyone.
Turns out that was kind ofnaive.
It has good things and badthings and I thought I know what
?
And religion was like no onewants you know religions, as
people are just going to outgrowall these irrational beliefs.
And I just thought that was alittle naive.
And so I started to studyreligion to see how societies
(05:36):
were formed around, what peoplebelieve, and that eventually led
me to politics.
And here we are.
I'll just say one last thingabout politics, trying to
understand the age ofdisinformation, conspiracy
theories, people havingdifferent views of what they
believe, no one trustinganything.
What's the dominant narrative?
We're still fighting thesebattles about.
(05:58):
What is the story that webelieve that is shaping our
actions, who we are, ouridentities, the political tribes
that we join and the world thatwe want to live in and how we
act towards one another.
And the battle for the pen hasexploded now with AI and
disinformation and who controlsit and who trusts the authorship
(06:19):
.
And we are still in that fight,maybe more than ever today.
So I really feel like thethings that I studied are more
relevant than ever Now.
Of course, over the last manydecades, filtering that through
politics has been really thestory of my life.
Aaron Pete (06:38):
I suspect that through this process you
developed a way of understandingthe world and a logical system
for kind of taking ininformation as you start to
become skeptical of what you'rebeing told.
What do you think some of yourbig takeaways on kind of
ingesting information and tryingto absorb it and then
understand your own worldviewhow do you think that came about
?
Evan Solomon (06:59):
So it's a great question, aaron.
There's no answer in the sensethat it's a process.
You know, I think it'simportant to have a framework.
I always describe myself as askeptical optimist.
As a journalist, I'm notcynical, but I'm skeptical.
Right, that's my job.
I shouldn't be saying, oh, thegovernment says this or someone
in power says that.
(07:20):
Skepticism does not mean youbelieve anything.
It means you probe and ask forproof.
It means you do believe infacts, you do want some proofs,
you do want something verifiable.
You should be skeptical.
We should be naive enough toknow we've seen too many things
and we're all too experiencedenough to just take things on
face value.
So a healthy skepticism.
(07:43):
But my big takeaway is,skepticism should not give way
to cynicism.
In other words, you know you'realways going to get the short
end of the stick.
Nothing is good, you're goingto get ripped off, don't trust
anyone, don't trust your doctor,your pilot, don't trust
anything, don't trust anexpertise, and that turns into
this culture war againsteverything and your opponents
become your enemies.
(08:03):
That's the inevitable tragedyof cynicism.
Whereas a skeptical optimist isa healthy skeptic, a critical
thinker, ask questions.
But you're optimistic that ifyou do ask questions and if you
do have a healthy debate and ifdialogue and debate happens, the
best things will emerge.
Real solutions will come fromhealthy debate.
(08:28):
And I'm optimistic.
You know I've been doing thisfor a long time and I am
optimistic that the species cansolve our problems and we can do
better, despite a lot ofevidence to the country.
There's lots of evidence andI'm not being naive that in the
last, you know, 75 years postwar, things have been better
than ever for most people.
Again, I'm not suggestingeveryone's life is better in
(08:51):
individually or they haven'tbeen horrible conflicts, but on
the whole, the statisticalpeople living in poverty, child
mortality rates, curing ofdisease, all those things have
gotten better.
And so I'm optimistic thatworking together this species is
good, and that's my healthylesson.
And through democracies, healthydemocracies and healthy debate
(09:14):
and some.
But I'm still a skeptic aboutthings.
I don't like to be, you know,taken for granted and that's why
I spent my life hammeringpeople in power, asking
questions.
I'm not fundamentally apartisan guy by nature and
that's why I'm in this job, butI am an optimistic person that
if we keep asking questions, wetake no BS, we get our facts
(09:37):
right, we hold the powerful toaccount, we make sure that
everyone's got an opportunity Toask questions and access to
power.
That's a pretty good check andbalance against abuse, fear, and
we can move forward a bit.
So that I think would be my, myhealthiest lesson skeptical
optimism.
Aaron Pete (09:57):
The other piece that you mentioned that I just want
to follow up on is you mentionedthe Gutenberg revolution, the
printing press, all of thoseprocesses.
Jordan Peterson has describedpodcasting in YouTube as the
next Gutenberg revolution, inthat we can now have long form
conversations.
Politicians are now gettingmore comfortable with our long
interviews, rather than eightminute clips of Of what they're
(10:18):
saying or really quick scrums.
They're starting to understandthat the landscape is somewhat
changing.
How do you feel about this bigchange where any goober with a
podcast is able to now get onthe airwaves and start to share
their perspectives?
Evan Solomon (10:31):
I think it's great and it's democratic, and the
barriers to entry into thenational dialogue should be low.
So let's be clear thedemocratization of access to the
pan and I talked about, whichis what Gutenberg started in,
and we're seeing what somepeople would call like the hyper
(10:53):
speciation of it, like it'sgoing crazy.
Now everyone's doing it.
That's fantastic, but itdoesn't mean everyone's doing it
well.
Right, let's be clear the factthat everyone can do something
doesn't mean everyone is doingit well, and that doesn't mean
that we should give up standards.
Democracy is not about thegiving up of standards and in
the giving away of the mob.
(11:14):
Democracy is about everyonehaving an opportunity to set
standards and to make sure thatthose standards lead to an
outcome that's best for as manypeople as possible.
That's the goal and we shouldbe very careful.
One of the challenges that welive today is standards have
completely fallen.
(11:38):
We used to talk in Canada a lotabout the two solitudes.
Probably should have talkedabout the three solitudes French
, english, indigenousCommunities.
People didn't talk to eachother, they didn't have shared
stories, share languages andthey just lived in these sort of
three mega silos, and then youhad all sorts of other immigrant
communities that were coming inand they had their own mini
(11:58):
silos.
The two solitudes pointed to alot of problems, but despite the
fact that we've got this youknow revolution, where everybody
has a podcast and a Twitterspace I think that's great.
We're also more alone than ever, in the sense that we live in
(12:19):
echo chambers.
We don't have two solitudes orthree solitudes.
We have multiple realities.
People on people on the leftare only wanting to listen to
things on the left, and echoPeople on the right only want to
listen to the right.
So it's not like you and I arereading the same couple of
newspapers and debating and yousay, evan, I don't agree with
that.
And I said, aaron, well, whynot?
And we have this kind of debatewithin this kind of realm of
(12:41):
facts and you want more of thisand I want less of that, and you
want less of that and I want.
That's what politics and thedemocracy used to be.
Now people say I don't even knowwhat you're talking about.
I don't believe your basicfacts.
The sky to you is blue.
My truth is the sky to you isblue.
My truth is the sky has polkadots.
(13:03):
You're like what I don't aslike, well, sorry, buddy, and
then you don't even, and I onlygo to.
Sky is polka dot dot com.
That's my world, that's myYouTube channel and my Twitter
feed and my tick doc channel.
So I think there's real problemswith disinformation, real
problem with a lack of consensus, real problem with the war on
reason, real problem with thequote war on the person that
(13:26):
disagrees with you.
So I don't necessarily want toopenly celebrate the fact that,
yes, it's great that everyone'sgot access, wonderful, but OK,
that's the perfect democraticright, everyone's got an
opportunity.
But everyone's not doesn't havethe same abilities.
Right, and this is the funnything about often on the right
(13:48):
they say well, this is great,there's no more.
Don't trust the elites and theleft to empower and the.
But these are the very samepeople who have always argued
that there shouldn't just be aeveryone has the same.
Remember there's.
We need to give everyone thesame opportunity.
We should guarantee people thesame opportunity.
(14:08):
You and I might have the sameopportunities, but we don't
necessarily want to guaranteethe same outcomes.
Right, because outcomes shoulddepend on how smart you are, how
talented you are, how hard youwork.
That's also part of it.
Right, there's a baseline ofoutcome.
Right, like we have societiesall about.
Let's have a baseline.
Like I don't know if I'm goingto live or die.
(14:29):
This is like natural law stuff.
If I'm born very poor, in veryunfortunate circumstances, I
should have the right to aneducation.
I should have the right tohealth care.
Right, there's certain basesthat you and I would agree on.
Right, we want the mostdisadvantaged person to have a
base level, but we don't want topunish someone who's say, well,
you should also have the sameoutcome as, like the most
(14:51):
brilliant musician in the world.
No, like talent deserves it'sonly words as well.
So that's the same.
In media, all voices ain'tequal.
Some are prevent crap and Somecountries like China and Russia
are.
They know this.
They're poisoning up river andthey're feeding disinformation
(15:14):
To try to destroy democracy.
So we gotta be careful and notnaive and say it's great because
it ain't I.
Aaron Pete (15:21):
Agree with you that resumes aren't all created equal
, and one piece that I actuallywant to ask about is in the
1990s you co-founded shiftmagazine, wrote a novel called
crossing the distance, hostedshows on CBC called change
makers, future world and hottype.
I'm wondering the work thatgoes into developing your skill
sets.
You were willing to go in somany different directions and
(15:42):
try things.
What can you reflect on thatperiod of your life and what you
took away from it?
Evan Solomon (15:47):
I'm also reflecting on the depth of your
research.
You're really this these aredeep cuts.
Yeah, first of all, thanks forthat.
That's, it's, it's.
It is a pleasure to kind ofthink about that time and and,
and I really appreciate youasking about that and I also
sort of feel bad for you thatyou had to dig through all that
(16:07):
stuff.
Aaron Pete (16:08):
No, it's fantastic.
I admire people who are willingto do all of those different
directions, because we live in aworld right now where people
are not, as I feel like, eagerto set the standard and to go
above what other people arewilling to do, and like going
from a book to TV to writingmagazine, like those are so many
different Directions and Ireally admire your willingness
to be multifaceted.
Evan Solomon (16:30):
You know it's interesting, when I was in my
20s I was restless Right and Idecided not to go to law school.
My dad was a lawyer and I, andyou know I always called that
the car wash.
They don't like if you do itright, you know you don't screw
up, you enter the car wash, youknow you don't sort of try to
drive the car.
(16:50):
There's a path that you cancome out the other side and
things gonna work out.
But I I was like, okay, I haveto do a different path and you
know I wanted to make sure itsucceeded.
I didn't wasn't quite sure whatthe path was, my path.
But I had a best friend fromuniversity, andrew Heinzman, and
we sat down and we had threeideas.
One, we want to start amagazine because we want to tell
(17:13):
stories, you want, we want tobe writers.
And.
And Two, we wanted to start, wewant to get into politics.
So we thought we should maybestart our own political party
because we didn't trust thepoliticians sound familiar.
And Three, we wanted to start abusiness because we were very
interested in politics, businessand media.
(17:33):
Those were our three passionsand we we had a business idea of
Finding products that wereefficiently made and labeling
them that and this was like along time ago.
So were they made efficiently?
So, analyzing the mostefficiently made and and whether
it was environmentally or workor whatever, the best companies,
(17:54):
in finding a way and peoplewould really be attracted to
companies that were really good.
And we ended up starting acompany called shift and we got
lucky, because you know well, itstarted about literature,
because we're interested in thismemory.
I was saying at the beginning ofthis, the story of who we are.
That was that this was like the90s and the internet was just
(18:17):
Starting and I had worked as ajournalist in Hong Kong for a
year and when I was therewriting for the South China
Morning Post, I had done a storyon the very first Internet
thing and I think it was.
It was before aOL.
They said, evan, can you figurethis out?
And I didn't really understandit.
It was like a bulletin board,it was called.
(18:39):
It was really like this wasreally before the graphic user
interface.
This was really early and itwas fascinating.
And then, when we started thismagazine, another guy who was
working with us, mark Highland,said you know, we should, this
is a revolution.
We should.
We should change our magazineand and start Chronically the
birth of a new technology,because it's going to transform
(19:00):
everything.
And we did and shift becamekind of the first magazine.
We were the first magazine tosell internet ads, the first
magazine online with thebulletin board.
We became kind of the Canadianwired and I remember when we got
our first investors, which wereMcLean Hunter.
We, I mean remember we startedwith six hundred dollars, just
so you know, yeah, we used toplay concerts and bars every
(19:23):
quarter and hold big concerts.
My partner was a great musician.
I loved music, play very badguitar and so joined the band as
a pity for them, but they wereactually very good musicians and
To raise money.
So like we were young but itcaught fire because there was a
revolution and when we finallygot some investors, like I
(19:45):
remember there's a companycalled McLean Hunter which is
now Rogers, and they were buying20% of us and we were in the
big boardroom.
I mean I remember the guys whohad cuff links.
Their cuff links were worthmore than like our entire
company.
Like we were so nervous and andwe were gonna sell it and we
really love business and Andyand I were at this big corporate
(20:07):
boardroom, one of the guys withthose cuff links, and we were
saying you know, this internetthing is gonna change the world
and our magazines at theforefront and it's gonna make TV
and radio and Search andmagazines and you guys have to
get involved in this.
And the CEO of the companythought we were on to something
and he said, well, why don't webuy 20% of this company to see
if these kids know what they'retalking about?
And the other guys were likethey're all guys.
(20:29):
And One of them said he wasBritish.
And he said to us Boys, if weunderstand you correctly, this
internet thing is going to besomething of a religion, which
was perfect for me, right?
And I remember Andy and Ilooked at each other and we said
, yeah, it's gonna be kind oflike that, it's gonna be that
(20:52):
big.
And they chuckled, but theybought it and we ended up buying
them out.
But that's how we started shiftmagazine and that turned into a
TV show and then, because wewere the first people to really
cover it, cbc then approached meto do a program, a weekly show
called Future World, to talkabout this crazy new technology,
(21:12):
and they the producer, andrewJohnson Cast me.
I was about 25 years old andand we had done a television
show on Rogers Community cablethat called shift television,
and then I I auditioned for thisshow it was 12 episodes they
were gonna do and I got the job.
I looked at like I was abouteight and I did get this job to
(21:35):
do this weekly interview show ontechnology and ideas and it
ended up doing 42 shows thefirst year.
It was a big hit and then I didit for almost eight or nine
years and then we shifted to hottype.
So so in my 20s our magazinekind of exploded.
We went from you sort of two ofus and then three of us to, I
think, 45 or more.
(21:55):
And you know our company wasgrowing rapidly.
We got investors, I was doing aweekend show on CBC, I was
writing a novel that I publishedEventually with McCollum and
Stewart, and so, yeah, I'm thelesson.
There Aaron was.
I was so young and so dumb andso naive that I didn't know what
(22:16):
I had to lose.
And Andy was the same and youknow we weren't married, we
didn't have kids, we had nothingto lose.
So if we went broke and wealmost went broke a lot it
didn't matter.
It's not like, if I went broke,how am I gonna feed my kids?
I always say this to people inCanada young people in your 20s,
(22:36):
when you've got no experienceand no money, it's the best time
to be an entrepreneur.
You're gonna make mistakes,you're gonna be the CEO and the
janitor, but it's and the stakesare low.
And we were told something fromthe founder of wired magazine
and we eventually were modeledlike they started after us.
So we used to meet them becausewe were doing the same thing in
Canada and Lewis Rosetto saidto us something that we put in
(23:00):
our Magazine has been a mantraGuys, make sure when you try
something, it's so ambitiousthat if you fail, you fail
upwards.
In other words, you're gonna,you're gonna learn so much
that's gonna leave you ahead.
So don't try something small,because if you fail and you're
scared, it's just gonna bemeaningless.
Fail up, and Fail up was agreat mantra for a young person
(23:23):
who was an entrepreneur.
You know, and I could just tellyou one last thing, aaron, when
we had some great young writersClive Thompson, who writes for
the New York Times, and you know, sheila Hetty, one of the great
writers in the world right now.
Daniel Richley, who just did thebook with Getty Lee, a great
writer, ian Brown, likeeverybody wrote for us.
(23:45):
It was fantastic and theyinspired us.
There was a young generationand they inspired us and, and
you know, all of these peoplewere taking a risk and we just
found our community and that wasreally, really, that was really
inspiring for us, because andthat first moment I remember
(24:07):
after I don't know how manyyears, when we got Healthcare
and medical care for ouremployees, like you know, I
remember where one of the guysgot glasses, who's in his 20s
and he's like I can't, but likewe gave a healthcare system,
like I, like you know, employeebenefits, like can you imagine?
We were like playing in barsone year and then we're giving
benefits.
Yeah, though, that meantsomething and that helped us
(24:30):
understand the practicality ofstarting a business, and now I'm
back in business now and andthose lessons really paid off.
Aaron Pete (24:36):
What was the transition into journalism?
Evan Solomon (24:41):
I mean it was right at.
You know, I was the editor ofmy school newspaper in high
school.
I mean I was into sports but Iwas also into journalism and
writing, really into writing.
In university I was really intowriting and different things.
And then, right after Igraduated from my master's, I
(25:02):
went to Hong Kong.
Well, we started this magazine.
And then I went to Hong Kong towork as a freelance journalist
for a year, with the deal thatafter a year I would come back
and we'd go full time on themagazine.
So my transition intojournalism and business was
immediate.
Aaron Pete (25:17):
And what do you think during all of this time?
What do you think makes a goodjournalist?
Evan Solomon (25:24):
It's a great question.
When I was, my first job as ajournalist was as a professional
journalist was the South ChinaMorning Post.
And here's how my first and Ididn't go to journalism school
and I land in Hong Kong and I'mworking at a freight forwarding
company for a month.
A Chinese freight forwardingcompany and I was.
(25:44):
They wouldn't pay me till theend of the month.
So I had to try to and I knew Iwas going to quit because I
wanted to be a journalist, but Ididn't know how.
I was wandering around thestreet and this American woman,
thea Clapp well, I remember it.
I mean the Wan Chai market, I'm21.
And I'm wandering around theWan Chai market in Hong Kong.
I don't know anybody, not onesingle person in Hong Kong.
(26:05):
And this woman comes up to me.
She's probably a couple of 25.
And she said are you lost?
And I said kind of.
And she said what do you do?
And I said I'm a journalist,complete BS.
Because I'd only written stuffLike I'd started this magazine.
We got like two issues.
And she says oh, I work at theSouth China Morning Post.
(26:27):
Here's my card, call me.
And she walked away.
She was that kind of.
So I called her and she saidcall my editor.
So I called this editor and Isaid, hi, I'm Evan Solomon, I'm
a freelancer.
And he said what do you knowabout Hong Kong pension fund
situation?
And I said everything.
And he said, great, I need 800words by tomorrow morning.
(26:47):
I said, great, do you have anyleads?
I've just arrived.
He goes, yeah, call this bank.
So now, remember, this was theinternet, wasn't?
This is the 90s, before you getus to Google it.
So I am and I'll be honest withyou, I didn't even know what a
pension fund was.
So my first professionalquestion as a journalist was to
this bank that these guys gaveme the lead and they said hi.
(27:09):
I said hello, my name is EvanSolomon, I'm calling from the
South China Post, south ChinaMorning Post.
What is a pension fund?
That was my first question as aprofessional journalist and the
person didn't.
They were so nervous like, well, of course you know a pension
fund is.
And I was like slow it down,I'm taking notes.
And I said do you have anycontacts?
(27:30):
And I delivered my first 700word piece the next morning,
which they couldn't believe it,because in Hong Kong at the time
they used to call people whowere there.
This was before it went back tothe Chinese.
Filth failed in London, tryHong Kong.
So there was a bunch of Britspartying there, and that's what
they were called at the time.
The filth failed in London, tryHong Kong.
(27:53):
So funny.
And so I got another storyabout the diamond trade, and I
was so, and then I just so.
The first thing is courage toask questions.
And then later that year Iinterviewed Larry King, who was
a big television journalist inthe United States, and I said,
(28:13):
mr King, what is the secret tojournalism?
And he said just be curious.
And I legitimately rememberthinking at the time that's so
stupid.
Like, isn't it preparation, anddon't you have to be really
smart?
And I really thought this guy'sjust one of these dumb
television journalists.
And then I realized he'sexactly right Curiosity, asking
(28:35):
questions, active listening andthen telling a good story,
avoiding cliches, trying to tellan honest story that people
will listen to because it'sfresh, it's new, it's connected,
it's authentic.
And that's the thing about beinga journalist Don't be afraid to
ask a question.
There's no dumb questions.
(28:55):
There's no dumb questions there.
But you have to have thecourage to ask the hard question
and you have to be preparedenough to know, like in politics
in the job that I was doing atPower and Politics, or Powerplay
or Question Period, you have toreally know your stuff because
you have to know when they'reBSing and spinning and you have
to call out their stuff.
So that's where curiosity meetspreparation in political
(29:20):
journalism.
Aaron Pete (29:22):
That's a really good answer and very thoughtful.
I'm wondering if there's astandout interview.
When you look back on all ofthe work you've done, a
conversation you had that standsout above the rest.
Evan Solomon (29:35):
Oh gosh, Aaron, I mean not really one.
There's a lot.
Sometimes there's an encounterthat changes you.
It's not just the most famousperson I've been very fortunate
to interview prime ministers andpresidents and celebrities and
all that but sometimes I'm justinterviewing people.
(29:56):
You're in the tsunami and BandaAceh and 50,000 people are dead
and you go into a hospital andyou see someone whose family's
gone and you have a tinyencounter that will stay with
you longer than any sort ofwisdom that the prime minister
said in your end of yourinterview on Powerplay.
(30:16):
So I really think that you haveto be careful.
Privilege Every conversationhas something in it.
Every encounter is reallyimportant.
Every person that your, everystory you tell, is great.
I've done national news andlocal radio and I love them all.
(30:39):
I mean, I like what I dobecause I like people, I like
telling stories, I like tellingtheir story and sometimes you
have long relationships.
Yusuf Fakiri, the brother ofSali Fakiri, whose brother was
arrested in December of 2016 andsent to the Eastern Ontario
(31:01):
Correctional Facility in Lindsay, Ontario, and was dead 11 days
later with 50 contusions.
I've been covering that storysince 2016.
I'm still very close to YusufFakiri, His the inquiry in the
last month just found out thatit was homicide.
They've been fighting for sevenyears for that and I still know
(31:21):
that family very well, so thatmatters Talking to a writer like
Richard Ford.
He was a great American writerand I was really young and he
was a very powerful man, deepvoice, like great voice.
I sound like a choked chickenand he sounds like the Lion King
(31:45):
and he's a big guy and he hadpiercing blue eyes, he was a
southerner and he had won lotsof literary prizes and he'd
written famous novels.
And I guess I'd said somethingthat he didn't like.
And he's the kind of guy justso you know that when he didn't
like a review of someone, hewould hammer it on the side of a
(32:07):
tree and then shoot it with ashotgun and mail it to the
critic.
So he's literally that guy.
So I said something that hedidn't like and I said this
seems like a very RichardFordian thing.
And he looked at me on cameraand he, right into the lens, he
said that's the dumbest questionI've ever heard.
So I thought I was so cleverand I said well, richard, you
(32:32):
seem to be getting verydefensive, which is a real
strategy, as you know.
As an interviewer, you know toturn the question back on
someone.
And I, for a split second, Ifelt very clever, like this is
great, it's good TV.
And I quickly, you know, whipthe ball back to you and now
you're going to look like you'rea defensive.
And he looked at me and saidsomething that did change my
(32:54):
life and he looked right at mewith those eyes and he said I am
defensive, that's because Ihave something to defend.
What about you?
I was a really smart linebecause it got me over the
glibness of journalism and itmade me realize that if I'm
(33:16):
going to do something, I want todefend it.
And you see, nowadays, whenpeople hate journalists and I
often engage on Twitter withpeople who say you know, you're
a phony or you did this or youguys are paid off and I'm like
look, I'm not being defensive, Ihave something to defend.
I work hard for those stories.
I believe in it.
What you're saying is not trueand if I made a mistake, I'll
(33:36):
own it.
I have no issue with that.
But I also go out there andtalk to people.
So, whether it's the truckerprotest in Ottawa, like I think
of Richard Ford and I'm like youknow, I don't mind defending
that stuff because I wanted,since that moment, to make sure
that the work I have to do isthe work I believe in and I'll
defend.
I'm not going to be perfect.
I'm going to screw up.
(33:56):
Everyone does.
You know, we're not perfectpeople and when you do, you own
it, but you should create workthat you can defend and when
someone says you're gettingdefensive about it, you should,
like Richard Ford, say, yeah,it's worth defending because it
merits.
We worked hard for this me, myteam, my community.
(34:17):
So I don't mind.
Not, I don't mean go to war, Idon't mean tack it to a tree and
shoot it with a shotgun, but Ido mean it's okay to defend the
work if you are doing work youbelieve in.
And that was a really goodpiece of advice from a smart guy
.
Aaron Pete (34:34):
That was a really good piece of advice, and it can
be so challenging to walk sucha sensitive line of asking the
important question or therelevant question or the
question people want to hear,but doing that in a respectful
and thoughtful way.
So I'm going to try and do thatright now and ask you about
your experience leaving the CBCand if you have any reflections
(34:55):
that you'd be willing to shareon that.
Evan Solomon (34:57):
Yeah, I mean it was a very widely told story, as
you know, and the CBC and Isettled in and part of that is
that we don't talk about thedetails on it and I've never
said a bad word about CBC.
My way through all this stuffand very different than the
culture today where people seemto yell about everything is I
(35:21):
was very open about it.
I dealt with it right away andwe reached a good agreement.
But I will say the best.
I mean, look, it wasn't an easytime.
I'm not going to sugarcoat itand be inauthentic and say it
all worked out.
It was a shock and it was adifficult moment, but the thing
(35:41):
that I really, whatever I wasone of the reasons I never spoke
much about.
It was not my style to complain.
But secondly, whatever I said,you know people are going to
take a position on and I knewthat the best response is what
would I do next?
Right, because then it's notbiased.
(36:04):
People could.
The facts will speak tothemselves, you know.
So, for whatever people said orthought or whatever the
allegations were, I'm like OK,that happened.
Obviously I have my view on it,but here's what happened next.
Then, a couple of weeks, I waswriting a column on McLean's, I
had a show on serious exam.
I was a regular panelist onglobal with Tom Clark hosting
(36:28):
the show.
I hosted the Rogers electioncoverage and then I was at CTV
hosting the radio and power playand question period in the Evan
Solomon show.
So what that says is OK, forwhatever some may have said,
(36:49):
everyone else looked into it andoffered me jobs and I ended up
having a great job.
So what was great about it is Iwas externally validated and
it's just not my way to dissanybody.
I have no bad things to sayabout people.
I'm trying to move forward withmy actions and my work and I
(37:10):
continue to work and I love it.
And I will say this.
I say this to people If you'rehitting home runs your whole
life, you're going to get hit inthe face with a pitch.
Occasionally that happens.
Get up, and my dad gave me thebest inheritance shrink the rear
view mirror and grow thewindshield Like.
It doesn't mean forget.
It doesn't mean be bitter, itdoesn't mean don't reflect.
(37:33):
It just means the road ahead islong and keep working.
And I've been very lucky, very,very fortunate to have, since
CBC, to have worked eightfantastic years at CTV and I
continue.
You know I'm still acorrespondent at CTV Today.
I did episode of CTV, as I doevery single week.
(37:57):
So I still work with thosefolks and lots of other media.
So, look, it's part of life.
It's a long road and you climbthe mountain.
There's going to be a fewstumbles and that's.
I'm not the only.
I'll tell you, in a world thatyou and I are looking at, I am
hardly a victim.
You pick yourself up and youmove along and I'm better for it
(38:19):
.
So I'm a happy guy.
Aaron Pete (38:23):
I couldn't agree more.
I think there is journeys, andeverything that happened brought
you over to CTV and it ended upas I described to you before we
started inspiring me.
Watching your interview on TVwith Ellis Ross and Pam
Palmitter and the conversationthat was taking place there
while I was in law schoolinspired me.
(38:43):
That's the kind of work that Iwant to do.
I want to be a part of theseconversations.
I saw what Ellis Ross was sayingand I've interviewed him.
I talked about your interviewwith him and how that inspired
me and what he said and how itimpacted me, because there's two
different perspectives andthere's merit to both of them,
but one weighed so much more forme and that was that my
(39:03):
communities and poverty and thatwhen she wasn't willing to talk
about what members and whatcommunity members face every
single day and that that's theproblem, that didn't resonate
with me and what he said did,and so I went, graduated law
school, joined council and nowI'm working to repair the homes
in our community and improve theeconomic development in our
community.
And that's all largely based onbeing able to hear that
(39:26):
interview with him and justhearing his philosophy reflect
so perfectly onto me and inspireme.
So the work you're doing todayhas had a large influence on the
people who watch your show.
Evan Solomon (39:39):
I mean, I love.
I can't thank you enough fortelling me that it means a lot
and you always believe, and Ibelieve in my soul, that having
a healthy debate changespeople's minds right and can
change their life and can awakenan activism.
I had those same things as youdid and the fact that you
(40:04):
disagree with Pam Palmer andagreed with Ellis or someone
else watching may have agreedwith Pam and disagree with Ellis
Not what we want, like theability to disagree and pursue
the argument or the idea thatyou want is the very cornerstone
of our democracy.
Without having to hurt theother person, without having to
(40:27):
dismantle the other person'sintegrity, you can simply
dismantle their idea through theprocess of elections and
running for council.
That's what we need and toooften we're just afraid to
disagree, like I always likedthe passionate debate, I liked
it when people got at it becausethey give a dart, they care and
(40:48):
anyway I really appreciate thatand the work that I'm doing
here at GZERO, the work that Idid at CTV or CBC or anywhere,
continues to be about expressingideas hard, pressing people in
power hard and, you hope,bringing engagement of people
like you.
You become a lawyer and apodcaster and elected official
(41:08):
and you're a community builderand you're in the game and just
a circle back to what we started.
You grab hold of the pen andstart writing the instructions
for the next generation to seehow do we want to live and what
do we value and how does ourcommunity need to change.
And you've got yourself a holdof the pen.
That's pretty cool.
Aaron Pete (41:28):
Evan, you are a motivational person.
This has been one of the mostexciting interviews.
Would you mind please tellingpeople how they can follow your
work and keep up to date andstay informed as citizens?
Evan Solomon (41:38):
Well, right back at you, just for the record.
I mean, I love this podcast.
You've done great work.
You know, I was checking up onit before when you reached out,
and Vashi Capello's greatinterview with Vashi, who of
course, is doing power play anda question period, and the radio
show, as she followed in myfootsteps, and CTV and I think
(41:58):
actually at CBC.
I love Vashi and she's a friendof mine and your interview with
her was fantastic and you'rejust so probing and careful
about your questions and I justthink you're doing a great job.
So, first of all, thank you.
I love the entrepreneurialspirit of it, which I love Just
get in there and mix it up.
And so it was a real pleasureas a fellow entrepreneur to join
(42:22):
and support and at least bepart of your community.
So thank you and anytime If youwant to follow our geopolitical
coverage again, it's verynonpartisan, we mix it up.
We have these kind of debates.
Go to gzeromediacom.
You can sign up for our dailyfree newsletters.
We have them every morning.
(42:43):
You got them about geopolitics.
Ian Bremer writes one, we haveone on AI.
We have one on Canada US.
We have a weekly show in Canadaas well on PBS called GZERO
World, hosted by Ian Brammer.
So all that stuff is about.
Everything is political, whichI continue to love and pursue.
So, aaron, thanks.
Aaron Pete (43:04):
Thank you so much.
You were so easy to schedulewith and communicate with, and
you were so willing to do this,and that's such an honor coming
from someone who's trying togrow and trying to learn from
individuals like yourself.
So thank you for being sogracious with your time.
Best of luck, and I hope tochat again in the future.
Come down to New York.
Evan Solomon (43:20):
We need more Canada, thanks, perfect.
Tim McApline (43:26):
If you transported yourself back to June of 2020
and you're sitting down withJacob, your first guest, and you
looked forward and did you everthink you would hear the
sentence?
Yeah, I was checking out yourinterview with Bashee and
(43:49):
looking at your website andyou're doing really good at this
.
From Evan Solomon, like, wasthat in your wildest imagination
?
Aaron Pete (44:02):
If I'm being honest, not that specific, but I have
an expectation of myself that,yes, we would eventually hit the
point where people would beimpressed, and that's always
been the goal and I won't stopuntil I have the respect of the
people I admire most.
Tim McApline (44:23):
And then you're going to stop.
Is that what you're saying?
Aaron Pete (44:26):
I will only be open to retirement once we hit those
peaks.
I said 100 episodes minimum,but the goal is to hit a point
where I know that I've done thiswell and I think we're on that
path.
Tim McApline (44:47):
Yeah, that was pretty cool.
That was a really goodinterview.
Aaron Pete (44:50):
I couldn't agree more, and everything that I
hoped it'd be, and so much morethan I could have ever imagined.
Tim McApline (44:56):
Yeah, there's a certain charisma and just like
amplitude from an absolute pro,like and just and really
thoughtful questions.
Aaron Pete (45:07):
I love that.
Tim McApline (45:08):
Yeah, yeah, I love that when they're like whoa,
that's some deep cuts there,buddy, and you get a lot of very
good question.
Very good question.
That's all.
That's a somewhat of a stallingtechnique for them to recall,
but you do get about a lot,which is amazing.
Aaron Pete (45:26):
The goal is always to ask high quality questions
and take it from a differentperspective.
But there's so much that goesbehind the scenes of like.
Don't always vamp with a longintro to your question Sometimes
, but a lot of them are just Ijust want the answer to the
question, so I don't need tomake it 200 words.
I can say a 10 word question.
Tim McApline (45:48):
Well done.
Thank you very much.
Aaron Pete (45:51):
That was a great question from you too.
Thank you, appreciate it.
You're producing over the ice,yeah.
Tim McApline (45:59):
Yeah, I am.
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