March 1, 2025 • 24 mins
Who will represent the Liberal Party in the next election? Karina Gould joins Aaron Pete to discuss her bid for Liberal Party leadership, her vision for Canada, the challenges facing the party, Pierre Poilievre, Mark Carney, the carbon tax, reconciliation, and the future of Canadian politics.
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Aaron Pete (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger
Than Me podcast.
Karina Gould (00:04):
Here is your host, Aaron Peet.
Aaron Pete (00:07):
What is the future of the Liberal Party of Canada.
I'm speaking with one of thecandidates who is running in the
Liberal leadership race.
We discuss Pierre Poliev, markCarney, the carbon tax
reconciliation and the future ofCanada.
My guest today is Karina Gould.
Karina, I am so grateful thatyou're able to share your time
(00:28):
today.
Would you mind firstintroducing yourself to
listeners?
Karina Gould (00:31):
Sure.
So my name is Karina Gould andI am seeking the leadership of
the Liberal Party of Canada.
Aaron Pete (00:38):
Can we start off with why I'm sure that you've
been asked this in manydifferent ways but no politics.
This is something that, whenyou join politics, is maybe a
dream out yonder.
What if, one day, maybe I havethe opportunity?
How have you gotten here andwhy do you want this position?
Karina Gould (00:54):
Yeah, so, look, I've been a member of parliament
for almost 10 years now.
I'm from Burlington, ontario,and I've been very proud to
represent my community inParliament for the past decade.
And I'm doing this right nowbecause I care so much about our
country and we are at a verypivotal moment.
(01:14):
We're facing some very seriousthreats from down south of the
border with Donald Trump and thetariff threats that he is
threatening, but we are alsoabout to face a really important
choice about who we want tolead our country over the next
coming of years and what kind ofvision we have for our country.
(01:35):
And I'm quite worried aboutPierre Polyev and his agenda of
cuts, and I think we needsomebody who is a candidate for
the future, who believes sodeeply in this country, believes
in the people of Canada and isgoing to put everything in there
to build a brighter future forour country.
Aaron Pete (01:56):
I know you've been asked this before about the
challenges in this race.
You're up against some verywell-known, becoming well-known
names.
I think Canadians love anunderdog and I think generally
love an underdog and I thinkgenerally people love underdogs.
Almost every great movie thatyou can think of starts with
somebody starting behind theeight ball and working towards
it.
How are you approaching thisrace and how do you bring that
(02:16):
mindset of pushing up againstpeople who might be more
established than yourself?
Karina Gould (02:21):
Yeah, it's kind of funny to think of myself as the
underdog, but I definitely am,you know, and it's been so
exciting to hear from peopleacross the country who are
excited about my candidacy,excited about my youth, excited
about my vision for the future.
(02:43):
And you know, I've beenapproaching this race as I have
important things to say, I haveimportant voices to represent
and important issues to put onthe table.
And what I've seen over the pastseven weeks is where you know
the two kind of front runners,if you will, started the race in
one position and have kind offollowed my lead and moved
(03:05):
further.
You know to where I'm going andthe ideas that I'm putting
forward, and that's somethingthat I think is really important
.
Look, I'm so proud to be aliberal, I'm a progressive, I
believe in a country that isinclusive, that takes care of
our vulnerable, that setseverybody up for success.
(03:26):
And you know when I think aboutthe issues that we're debating
in this campaign.
Yeah, we have to talk about themacro economy and we need to
talk about productivity, but Imade sure we were talking about
people, I made sure that we weretalking about Canadians and I
made sure that we were talkingabout poverty and the
environment and Indigenousissues and things that I know
(03:48):
Canadians care about, and I'mreally really happy with that
and I'm really just so motivatedby the encouragement that I'm
getting from Canadians acrossthe country.
Aaron Pete (04:00):
That is one piece that I've heard a lot about, and
you've heard, I'm sure, a lotof news stories about the
Liberals moving back to thecentre.
I'm wondering how do you digestthat?
What are Liberal values?
Karina Gould (04:12):
Well, look, being a Liberal is somebody who is
socially progressive, caresabout taking care of Canadians
but is fiscally responsible.
And being a Liberal means thatwe are the party of the center,
which means we can have policiesthat are more on the left and
policies that are more on theright, but that they're the
right policies for Canadians.
(04:32):
And you know, I hear folks whenthey say we need to move more
back to the center.
But that kind of meanssomething different for almost
every liberal in terms of whatthat looks like and you, what I
have committed to as the Liberalleader is that I will have a
big tent party.
I think the Liberal Party isstrongest when we have that
healthy tension of wanting to,you know, move Canada forward
(04:56):
with big ideas but also beingpragmatic and responsible in how
we're managing the country'sfinances.
That's, you know, kind of beenthe history of the Liberal Party
of Canada, and I think thattension is good.
And you know, I've always beensomeone who's probably been, you
know, a bit left of centre andyou know very proud of, you know
(05:18):
, what we've been able toaccomplish in that regard.
But I think having thatdialogue and that debate is
important.
So for me, what does it mean tohave liberal values?
It means that we take care ofthe most vulnerable, that we
work for equity and inclusion,we are responsible fiscal and
economic managers and we buildthe country where everyone has
(05:41):
an opportunity to succeed.
So that's what it means to meto be a liberal the country
where everyone has anopportunity to succeed.
Aaron Pete (05:45):
So that's what it means to me to be a Liberal.
Do you think, over the pastnine years, that the Liberals
have been economically andfinancially responsible?
Karina Gould (05:52):
I do.
Look, we had a major event inthe COVID-19 pandemic where we
had to make major investments inCanadians and Canadian
organizations.
To make major investments inCanadians and Canadian
organizations, like if thefederal government hadn't come
through with things like theemergency response benefit, the
(06:13):
business loan and the wagesubsidy, we would be in a very,
very different fiscal situationand economic situation as a
country.
So we outside event thathappened, that had an impact on
Canada and on Canadians and youknow, my belief is that the role
of the federal government isthere to catch Canadians when
they fall and to provide thatsupport that was needed.
(06:34):
I think we did the right thing.
It was an expensive thing to do, right, but I think that we
would have been in a really muchworse position had we not done
that.
Aaron Pete (06:43):
In an interview with CTV, you talked about how you
get in these rooms and, ofcourse, things happen behind
closed doors.
You're having conversations,You're trying to land on which
direction you're going to go.
That your voice.
You have your own opinions.
That weren't always the way theparty went.
What do you think JustinTrudeau got wrong?
Karina Gould (07:01):
Well, so look, first of all, I'm really proud
of our record as a government.
I think that we have done somereally big, important things.
I'm not going to run away fromthings like the Canada Child
Benefit or affordable child care, our record on Indigenous
reconciliation, our record onthe environment and some of the
really big, importantinvestments that we've made in
(07:23):
our industries in Canada.
But where I think that wemissed the mark was in the
immediate aftermath of thepandemic, when the public health
crisis was kind of over but theinflation crisis was starting
and Canadians were saying to us,you know, in kind of early to
(07:44):
mid 2022, like, oh, my goodness,like I cannot afford to live my
life right now and my mortgageis going out of control, grocery
prices are skyrocketing, Ican't afford to put gas in the
tank.
And they were saying like hey,like things are not OK right now
, and we had just gotten out ofthe pandemic, if you will, and
(08:08):
we were kind of, like you know,focused on the fact that we did
a really good job handling thepandemic and, for all intents
and purposes, like we did do agood job of handling the
pandemic.
But we didn't hear Canadians inthe moment where they were
saying like things are still notokay and actually I'm now
entering this new crisis and wekind of got there eventually,
(08:29):
but we got there months andyears too late, and so the job
of the government is to haveyour finger on the pulse and to
know where Canadians are in thatmoment, and so I can really
clearly look and see that thatwas a big moment of departure
for us, and when we finally gotto the point of saying like we
(08:49):
understand that cost of livingis really on top of Canadians'
minds, they were kind of saying,yeah, but we told you that and
you didn't respond in the momentthat we needed you to.
So for me, it's about makingsure that as prime minister, as
a leader in this country, I'mconnected with Canadians and
listening to what is top of mindfor them and responding to what
(09:12):
their needs are.
I think that's really important.
Aaron Pete (09:15):
The piece that really stands out to me that
I've interviewed Minister PattiHajdu, minister Gary Anansangare
about the work going on onreconciliation and I have been
amazed at how quiet yourgovernment has been on a
portfolio that I feel like hasbeen incredibly successful over
the past nine years, and I'veasked both of them in interviews
(09:36):
like why is this not what theLiberals are putting forward to
Canadians as an area of absolutesuccess?
Of course I'm going to haveneighbouring communities tell me
there's always more to do andI'm not disagreeing with that.
But from what we've seen over30, 40, 50, 150 years, this is
the most progress fromeverything I understand that's
(09:59):
been made.
Like I'm a First Nationscouncillor, we've got 35 of 89
homes completely renovated.
We're applying for more fundsto continue to do that work.
We have new water system beingput through Indigenous Services.
Canada has been 100% supportiveof the work we're doing on that
front.
We're putting in a sewagesystem.
It's going to allow us to putin BC housing infrastructure so
that we have more homes onreserve to bring people home and
(10:20):
reduce the amount of peopleliving homeless in urban centres
, and I think that should besomething that is being put
forward.
But I've seen multiple newsarticles saying that the
Liberals have been pretty silenton reconciliatory issues during
this campaign, during thisperiod, during the leadership
race, and I'm just I'm wonderingwhy.
Karina Gould (10:43):
I mean, what a great question, because I'm so
proud of what we've been able todo on reconciliation with
Indigenous peoples over the lastdecade.
It's one of the reasons why Iran in 2015.
And yet it hasn't figured outalmost at all into the
leadership campaign.
You know, the first interviewthat I did after I launched, or
(11:06):
one of the first interviews thatI did after I launched my
campaign, was with APTN to talkabout reconciliation and to talk
about Indigenous issues.
You know, I was excited whenJaime Batiste was originally in
the leadership campaign becauseI thought maybe that would mean
that we would have a, you wouldhave a bigger spotlight on
reconciliation.
But it just, you know, I don'tknow.
(11:27):
It's an issue that I bring up.
I brought it up in the debatesa couple of times, both in
English and in French, because Ithink it's important for us to
discuss and understand where thecandidates stand on it.
My commitment is to continuedoing the work that we've been
doing.
Commitment is to continue doingthe work that we've been doing.
I think it's really importantto implement UNDRIP to make sure
(11:48):
that we continue to advancereconciliation in this country.
So and you know, it's not justreconciliation that we haven't
been talking about.
I mean, obviously, the longshadow of Trump has been
something that has focused themind of this leadership campaign
.
But you know, we haven't like.
(12:09):
I've been talking aboutaffordability.
I've been talking about housing.
I've been talking about makingour economy more competitive.
I've been talking aboutmodernizing our social safety
net and opening up a pathtowards basic income.
I've been talking aboutfighting climate change, but I'm
not really hearing that fromthe other candidates, and you
(12:30):
know I'm still talking aboutTrump.
But we have to be able to walkand chew gum at the same time.
You know, we have to be able toprotect our sovereignty and our
economy, but also do the thingsthat Canadians need us to do at
home.
Aaron Pete (12:43):
On UBI Universal Basic Income.
Some, from my understanding,during 2020, when CERB was a big
piece, some point to that andgo.
This is evidence that thisapproach really doesn't work.
That was one of the test casesof people being able to stay
home.
They were being supplementedtheir income and there was a
real slog for people to want togo back to work because of some
(13:08):
of those resources.
I heard it from friends andpeers.
What is your take on that?
Does that inform any of yourunderstanding of UBI?
Do you think that's a badexample?
Karina Gould (13:17):
Well, look, I would say that what we saw with
CERB is we saw a massive cut inpoverty in our country, and we
saw it wasn't that people didn'twant to go back to work, it was
that when they couldn't work,they had the income and the
supports that they needed, andwe, in a way, have a basic
(13:37):
income for children through theCanada Child Benefit and a basic
income for seniors through oldage security and the guaranteed
income supplement.
But we need to do more for someof the most vulnerable in our
society.
We don't have the supportsneeded for people who live with
disabilities, and you know, Ican say that, like I graduated
into the 2008 financial crisis,it was hard to find a job.
(14:00):
I got a job.
I was on contract.
I've never had a job in Canadawhere I've qualified for EI, and
I'm not alone in that.
You know, there are many peoplein my generation I'm a
millennial or younger who workon, who work multiple jobs, who
work on contract and for whomthe social safety net just
(14:22):
doesn't work, and so we reallyneed to ensure that we have a
system that works for Canadiansin 2025.
Is that a basic income?
I don't know, maybe, but let'sexplore it and let's see what
makes the most sense for oursocial safety net in 2025 that
is not just going to catchpeople when they fall, but also
help them bounce back up and beeven more successful.
Aaron Pete (14:46):
The carbon tax has, of course, become a live issue.
Would you axe the tax?
Karina Gould (14:53):
So my commitment is that I would cancel the
planned increase for April 1stand keep it at the current level
.
I think we need to have anhonest conversation with
Canadians about this.
When people talk about thecarbon tax and you're in BC, you
don't have the consumer priceon pollution.
It's a different system in BCand Quebec.
What they're really talkingabout is affordability.
(15:14):
They're not saying that theydon't want to fight climate
change.
They're not saying that theydon't want to protect the
environment.
They're saying things areexpensive and we need help.
We know the price on pollutionis not what is increasing the
prices.
What is increasing the pricesare inflation, but it's also the
high cost of housing, it's thehigh cost of groceries.
So that's why I put forward anambitious plan to tackle housing
(15:36):
affordability, to endhomelessness, to help first-time
homebuyers get into the market,but also to cut the GST from 5%
to 4%, at least for a yearWe'll see how that goes but to
give people real savingsimmediately and also to really
strengthen our competitionbureau in Canada so that we
don't have any more of this fakecompetition, that people have
(15:57):
real choice and better prices.
Aaron Pete (15:59):
Mark Carney has gone on Jon Stewart and Chrystia
Freeland has gone on Jon Stewartand Chrystia Freeland has gone
on Bill Maher's show.
And from a Canadian'sperspective, in a time where it
feels like the tensions are highamong Canadians and Americans,
I'm wondering how you digest thefact that they're going on
American media when there isthis high tension between us.
Karina Gould (16:22):
Yeah, well, I think it's important for us to
be on Canadian media.
I think that's really importantto support our own Canadian
media and you know I went on.
This hour has 22 minutes as oneof the first things to do, but
I also think, as a time whenPierre Palliev is threatening to
(16:42):
get rid of CBC Radio Canada, wereally do need to be supporting
our local media in Canada.
Aaron Pete (17:04):
I also think that it's important to talk to
Americans, but also to talk tothe right audience, you know,
and make sure that the messagethat we're delivering is
reaching the audience that weneed it to.
You were the only one tocriticize Mark Carney during the
English debate.
Why do you think that was?
Karina Gould (17:14):
Well, I pushed all of my colleagues.
You know it's supposed to be adebate that is what we call that
and so that means that weshould be challenging each other
on our ideas.
I think that liberal membersacross this country, we're
looking for ways to see, okay,where did the different
(17:35):
leadership candidates stand ondifferent issues?
They're looking to make aninformed choice as to who's
going to be the next leader ofour party and the prime minister
.
So they have a right to be ableto see where do I stand on
certain issues versus others,and so, you know, I pushed each
of them on.
You know different areas wherewe differentiate and I wanted to
(17:57):
understand where they stand aswell.
So it's supposed to be a debate.
It was a friendly debate, youknow, and that's good.
We're all liberals but at theend of the day, it's about the
direction of our party and thedirection of our country, and
people should be able to make aninformed choice.
Aaron Pete (18:13):
Can you make a clear differentiation?
How are you different than thetwo lead opposition?
Karina Gould (18:18):
Yeah.
So when they talk abouthouseholds, I talk about
families.
When they talk aboutproductivity, I talk about how
people can make ends meet.
You know, I'm a grassrootspolitician that has always been
connected in community, and Iknow that politics is about
people.
We absolutely need to have, youknow, a big economic plan.
(18:41):
That is, you know, not aquestion.
But at the end of the day, whois the economy?
The economy are the Canadianpeople, and it's all well and
good to say that our economicindicators look good at 30,000
feet, but if Canadians don'tfeel like they're getting ahead,
if they're struggling to payfor their groceries or put gas
in their tank, the economy isnot working for them.
(19:03):
And so the big differencebetween me and the others is
that my focus is about people.
It's about Canadians, it'sabout how to make their lives
better, whereas my colleaguesare thinking kind of at a higher
level, and that's okay too, andI think we need both of those
things.
But I think, as prime minister,your job is to listen to people
(19:23):
, it's to understand whatCanadians are going through and
to put forward solutions thatare going to make a real,
tangible difference in theirlives.
Aaron Pete (19:31):
What have you learned during your time in
government and being houseleader?
Karina Gould (19:35):
Oh gosh, I've learned so many different things
in my time in government, but Iwould say the main thing that
I've learned is that my job as apolitician is to put the human
face on policy.
I get the policy wonk stufffrom the bureaucracy, and they
do a good job, but my job is tosay okay, and how does that
(19:58):
impact people in theirday-to-day lives, and is this
the decision that is going to begood for people in Canada?
So that has been one of the bigtakeaways for me, having been a
minister for the last eightyears.
As I always push the excellentpublic servants that we have to
say okay, but what does thismean for people on the ground
(20:20):
and is that going to make theirlives better?
And then, as government houseleader, the thing that I have
learned is how to work withpeople that I don't agree with.
I have to negotiate in theHouse of Commons every single
day with conservative House ofCommons, every single day with
(20:40):
Conservative Bloc, ndp, greenMPs, and to find a way forward.
And so you know I don'tnecessarily agree and oftentimes
we don't agree, but we figureout ways to keep moving things
forward and to work forCanadians.
So I've developed some reallygood negotiating skills, but
also how to find common groundwith people where we share
different visions of the country.
Aaron Pete (21:02):
If you're successful , you're going to be going up
against, potentially, pierrePauliev, who I would say is a
very seasoned politician, a verygood communicator, and then, if
you're successful, against that, then you get to face off
against Donald Trump.
In those circumstances, and I'mwondering what can you tell
Canadians?
How can you give us reassurancethat you're up to the task to
(21:24):
go against some pretty heavyhitters?
Karina Gould (21:27):
Well, look, men like Pierre Polyev and Donald
Trump underestimate leaders likeme every single day, and that's
their mistake.
I've gone up against PierrePolyev every single day in the
House of Commons for almost adecade, so I know how to go toe
to toe with him and I know howto win.
I won in my riding ofBurlington three times.
It's typically a veryconservative riding and again, I
(21:51):
know how to fight and I knowhow to win.
And when it comes to DonaldTrump, it's all about strength.
And look, I grew up with threebrothers who played hockey.
I know how to hold my own, butmore than that it you know like.
I think what Canadians can takeaway from me is that, yes, I'm
(22:11):
nice, yes, I'm smiling, but Iknow how to fight and I know how
to fight for them.
And I have been fighting forCanadians for 10 years in the
House of Commons.
I know how to stand up tobullies and I know how to
protect what I care about, and Icare about this country.
Aaron Pete (22:29):
Last piece.
We're nearing the end of this.
This is going to air on theMonday.
I'm wondering how do peopleshow their support for the work
that you're doing?
How do they get involved inthis election as it nears a
close?
Karina Gould (22:40):
Yeah.
So first, if you've joined theLiberal Party, you can vote for
me.
You can rank me number one onyour ballot.
That's the best way you can doit and, if you'd like, you can
volunteer on my campaign.
We're going to need your helpto get out the vote and, if you
really want to, I wouldencourage you to make a donation
.
My campaign is powered bypeople, thousands of people
(23:04):
across the country, who havesent everywhere, from $10 to
$100 or more to my campaign.
Every dollar counts, and so youcan do that, whether you can
volunteer or donate, whetheryou're a member of the party or
not, and if you're a member ofthe party or not.
And if you are a member of theparty, please don't forget to
vote by March 9th.
Aaron Pete (23:23):
Karina, I really appreciate you being willing to
take this time, and I'm gratefulfor your team for setting this
up.
I have worked with the otherpotential leaders and it has
been a challenge to get theirtime.
I know that they have a lot ofobligations.
I know there's a lot going onwith this, but your team didn't
ask any questions about what Iwas going to be asking about.
They just wanted to schedulethis and share your time, and so
(23:46):
I'm very grateful for that.
I think that does speak to yourapproach of leadership of just
being willing to sit down withpeople and have the conversation
.
So kudos to you, and I wish youthe best of luck moving forward
.
Karina Gould (23:56):
Well, thanks, aaron.
Look, I'm not afraid of thehard conversations or the hard
questions.
That's what leadership is, andwe live in a democracy, and so
our job as leader, our job asprime minister, is to have a
conversation with Canadians.
So thanks so much for reachingout.
I'm glad to have it with you.
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger
Than Me podcast.
Karina Gould (00:04):
Here is your host, Aaron Peet.
Aaron Pete (00:07):
What is the future of the Liberal Party of Canada.
I'm speaking with one of thecandidates who is running in the
Liberal leadership race.
We discuss Pierre Poliev, markCarney, the carbon tax
reconciliation and the future ofCanada.
My guest today is Karina Gould.
Karina, I am so grateful thatyou're able to share your time
(00:28):
today.
Would you mind firstintroducing yourself to
listeners?
Karina Gould (00:31):
Sure.
So my name is Karina Gould andI am seeking the leadership of
the Liberal Party of Canada.
Aaron Pete (00:38):
Can we start off with why I'm sure that you've
been asked this in manydifferent ways but no politics.
This is something that, whenyou join politics, is maybe a
dream out yonder.
What if, one day, maybe I havethe opportunity?
How have you gotten here andwhy do you want this position?
Karina Gould (00:54):
Yeah, so, look, I've been a member of parliament
for almost 10 years now.
I'm from Burlington, ontario,and I've been very proud to
represent my community inParliament for the past decade.
And I'm doing this right nowbecause I care so much about our
country and we are at a verypivotal moment.
(01:14):
We're facing some very seriousthreats from down south of the
border with Donald Trump and thetariff threats that he is
threatening, but we are alsoabout to face a really important
choice about who we want tolead our country over the next
coming of years and what kind ofvision we have for our country.
(01:35):
And I'm quite worried aboutPierre Polyev and his agenda of
cuts, and I think we needsomebody who is a candidate for
the future, who believes sodeeply in this country, believes
in the people of Canada and isgoing to put everything in there
to build a brighter future forour country.
Aaron Pete (01:56):
I know you've been asked this before about the
challenges in this race.
You're up against some verywell-known, becoming well-known
names.
I think Canadians love anunderdog and I think generally
love an underdog and I thinkgenerally people love underdogs.
Almost every great movie thatyou can think of starts with
somebody starting behind theeight ball and working towards
it.
How are you approaching thisrace and how do you bring that
(02:16):
mindset of pushing up againstpeople who might be more
established than yourself?
Karina Gould (02:21):
Yeah, it's kind of funny to think of myself as the
underdog, but I definitely am,you know, and it's been so
exciting to hear from peopleacross the country who are
excited about my candidacy,excited about my youth, excited
about my vision for the future.
(02:43):
And you know, I've beenapproaching this race as I have
important things to say, I haveimportant voices to represent
and important issues to put onthe table.
And what I've seen over the pastseven weeks is where you know
the two kind of front runners,if you will, started the race in
one position and have kind offollowed my lead and moved
(03:05):
further.
You know to where I'm going andthe ideas that I'm putting
forward, and that's somethingthat I think is really important
.
Look, I'm so proud to be aliberal, I'm a progressive, I
believe in a country that isinclusive, that takes care of
our vulnerable, that setseverybody up for success.
(03:26):
And you know when I think aboutthe issues that we're debating
in this campaign.
Yeah, we have to talk about themacro economy and we need to
talk about productivity, but Imade sure we were talking about
people, I made sure that we weretalking about Canadians and I
made sure that we were talkingabout poverty and the
environment and Indigenousissues and things that I know
(03:48):
Canadians care about, and I'mreally really happy with that
and I'm really just so motivatedby the encouragement that I'm
getting from Canadians acrossthe country.
Aaron Pete (04:00):
That is one piece that I've heard a lot about, and
you've heard, I'm sure, a lotof news stories about the
Liberals moving back to thecentre.
I'm wondering how do you digestthat?
What are Liberal values?
Karina Gould (04:12):
Well, look, being a Liberal is somebody who is
socially progressive, caresabout taking care of Canadians
but is fiscally responsible.
And being a Liberal means thatwe are the party of the center,
which means we can have policiesthat are more on the left and
policies that are more on theright, but that they're the
right policies for Canadians.
(04:32):
And you know, I hear folks whenthey say we need to move more
back to the center.
But that kind of meanssomething different for almost
every liberal in terms of whatthat looks like and you, what I
have committed to as the Liberalleader is that I will have a
big tent party.
I think the Liberal Party isstrongest when we have that
healthy tension of wanting to,you know, move Canada forward
(04:56):
with big ideas but also beingpragmatic and responsible in how
we're managing the country'sfinances.
That's, you know, kind of beenthe history of the Liberal Party
of Canada, and I think thattension is good.
And you know, I've always beensomeone who's probably been, you
know, a bit left of centre andyou know very proud of, you know
(05:18):
, what we've been able toaccomplish in that regard.
But I think having thatdialogue and that debate is
important.
So for me, what does it mean tohave liberal values?
It means that we take care ofthe most vulnerable, that we
work for equity and inclusion,we are responsible fiscal and
economic managers and we buildthe country where everyone has
(05:41):
an opportunity to succeed.
So that's what it means to meto be a liberal the country
where everyone has anopportunity to succeed.
Aaron Pete (05:45):
So that's what it means to me to be a Liberal.
Do you think, over the pastnine years, that the Liberals
have been economically andfinancially responsible?
Karina Gould (05:52):
I do.
Look, we had a major event inthe COVID-19 pandemic where we
had to make major investments inCanadians and Canadian
organizations.
To make major investments inCanadians and Canadian
organizations, like if thefederal government hadn't come
through with things like theemergency response benefit, the
(06:13):
business loan and the wagesubsidy, we would be in a very,
very different fiscal situationand economic situation as a
country.
So we outside event thathappened, that had an impact on
Canada and on Canadians and youknow, my belief is that the role
of the federal government isthere to catch Canadians when
they fall and to provide thatsupport that was needed.
(06:34):
I think we did the right thing.
It was an expensive thing to do, right, but I think that we
would have been in a really muchworse position had we not done
that.
Aaron Pete (06:43):
In an interview with CTV, you talked about how you
get in these rooms and, ofcourse, things happen behind
closed doors.
You're having conversations,You're trying to land on which
direction you're going to go.
That your voice.
You have your own opinions.
That weren't always the way theparty went.
What do you think JustinTrudeau got wrong?
Karina Gould (07:01):
Well, so look, first of all, I'm really proud
of our record as a government.
I think that we have done somereally big, important things.
I'm not going to run away fromthings like the Canada Child
Benefit or affordable child care, our record on Indigenous
reconciliation, our record onthe environment and some of the
really big, importantinvestments that we've made in
(07:23):
our industries in Canada.
But where I think that wemissed the mark was in the
immediate aftermath of thepandemic, when the public health
crisis was kind of over but theinflation crisis was starting
and Canadians were saying to us,you know, in kind of early to
(07:44):
mid 2022, like, oh, my goodness,like I cannot afford to live my
life right now and my mortgageis going out of control, grocery
prices are skyrocketing, Ican't afford to put gas in the
tank.
And they were saying like hey,like things are not OK right now
, and we had just gotten out ofthe pandemic, if you will, and
(08:08):
we were kind of, like you know,focused on the fact that we did
a really good job handling thepandemic and, for all intents
and purposes, like we did do agood job of handling the
pandemic.
But we didn't hear Canadians inthe moment where they were
saying like things are still notokay and actually I'm now
entering this new crisis and wekind of got there eventually,
(08:29):
but we got there months andyears too late, and so the job
of the government is to haveyour finger on the pulse and to
know where Canadians are in thatmoment, and so I can really
clearly look and see that thatwas a big moment of departure
for us, and when we finally gotto the point of saying like we
(08:49):
understand that cost of livingis really on top of Canadians'
minds, they were kind of saying,yeah, but we told you that and
you didn't respond in the momentthat we needed you to.
So for me, it's about makingsure that as prime minister, as
a leader in this country, I'mconnected with Canadians and
listening to what is top of mindfor them and responding to what
(09:12):
their needs are.
I think that's really important.
Aaron Pete (09:15):
The piece that really stands out to me that
I've interviewed Minister PattiHajdu, minister Gary Anansangare
about the work going on onreconciliation and I have been
amazed at how quiet yourgovernment has been on a
portfolio that I feel like hasbeen incredibly successful over
the past nine years, and I'veasked both of them in interviews
(09:36):
like why is this not what theLiberals are putting forward to
Canadians as an area of absolutesuccess?
Of course I'm going to haveneighbouring communities tell me
there's always more to do andI'm not disagreeing with that.
But from what we've seen over30, 40, 50, 150 years, this is
the most progress fromeverything I understand that's
(09:59):
been made.
Like I'm a First Nationscouncillor, we've got 35 of 89
homes completely renovated.
We're applying for more fundsto continue to do that work.
We have new water system beingput through Indigenous Services.
Canada has been 100% supportiveof the work we're doing on that
front.
We're putting in a sewagesystem.
It's going to allow us to putin BC housing infrastructure so
that we have more homes onreserve to bring people home and
(10:20):
reduce the amount of peopleliving homeless in urban centres
, and I think that should besomething that is being put
forward.
But I've seen multiple newsarticles saying that the
Liberals have been pretty silenton reconciliatory issues during
this campaign, during thisperiod, during the leadership
race, and I'm just I'm wonderingwhy.
Karina Gould (10:43):
I mean, what a great question, because I'm so
proud of what we've been able todo on reconciliation with
Indigenous peoples over the lastdecade.
It's one of the reasons why Iran in 2015.
And yet it hasn't figured outalmost at all into the
leadership campaign.
You know, the first interviewthat I did after I launched, or
(11:06):
one of the first interviews thatI did after I launched my
campaign, was with APTN to talkabout reconciliation and to talk
about Indigenous issues.
You know, I was excited whenJaime Batiste was originally in
the leadership campaign becauseI thought maybe that would mean
that we would have a, you wouldhave a bigger spotlight on
reconciliation.
But it just, you know, I don'tknow.
(11:27):
It's an issue that I bring up.
I brought it up in the debatesa couple of times, both in
English and in French, because Ithink it's important for us to
discuss and understand where thecandidates stand on it.
My commitment is to continuedoing the work that we've been
doing.
Commitment is to continue doingthe work that we've been doing.
I think it's really importantto implement UNDRIP to make sure
(11:48):
that we continue to advancereconciliation in this country.
So and you know, it's not justreconciliation that we haven't
been talking about.
I mean, obviously, the longshadow of Trump has been
something that has focused themind of this leadership campaign
.
But you know, we haven't like.
(12:09):
I've been talking aboutaffordability.
I've been talking about housing.
I've been talking about makingour economy more competitive.
I've been talking aboutmodernizing our social safety
net and opening up a pathtowards basic income.
I've been talking aboutfighting climate change, but I'm
not really hearing that fromthe other candidates, and you
(12:30):
know I'm still talking aboutTrump.
But we have to be able to walkand chew gum at the same time.
You know, we have to be able toprotect our sovereignty and our
economy, but also do the thingsthat Canadians need us to do at
home.
Aaron Pete (12:43):
On UBI Universal Basic Income.
Some, from my understanding,during 2020, when CERB was a big
piece, some point to that andgo.
This is evidence that thisapproach really doesn't work.
That was one of the test casesof people being able to stay
home.
They were being supplementedtheir income and there was a
real slog for people to want togo back to work because of some
(13:08):
of those resources.
I heard it from friends andpeers.
What is your take on that?
Does that inform any of yourunderstanding of UBI?
Do you think that's a badexample?
Karina Gould (13:17):
Well, look, I would say that what we saw with
CERB is we saw a massive cut inpoverty in our country, and we
saw it wasn't that people didn'twant to go back to work, it was
that when they couldn't work,they had the income and the
supports that they needed, andwe, in a way, have a basic
(13:37):
income for children through theCanada Child Benefit and a basic
income for seniors through oldage security and the guaranteed
income supplement.
But we need to do more for someof the most vulnerable in our
society.
We don't have the supportsneeded for people who live with
disabilities, and you know, Ican say that, like I graduated
into the 2008 financial crisis,it was hard to find a job.
(14:00):
I got a job.
I was on contract.
I've never had a job in Canadawhere I've qualified for EI, and
I'm not alone in that.
You know, there are many peoplein my generation I'm a
millennial or younger who workon, who work multiple jobs, who
work on contract and for whomthe social safety net just
(14:22):
doesn't work, and so we reallyneed to ensure that we have a
system that works for Canadiansin 2025.
Is that a basic income?
I don't know, maybe, but let'sexplore it and let's see what
makes the most sense for oursocial safety net in 2025 that
is not just going to catchpeople when they fall, but also
help them bounce back up and beeven more successful.
Aaron Pete (14:46):
The carbon tax has, of course, become a live issue.
Would you axe the tax?
Karina Gould (14:53):
So my commitment is that I would cancel the
planned increase for April 1stand keep it at the current level
.
I think we need to have anhonest conversation with
Canadians about this.
When people talk about thecarbon tax and you're in BC, you
don't have the consumer priceon pollution.
It's a different system in BCand Quebec.
What they're really talkingabout is affordability.
(15:14):
They're not saying that theydon't want to fight climate
change.
They're not saying that theydon't want to protect the
environment.
They're saying things areexpensive and we need help.
We know the price on pollutionis not what is increasing the
prices.
What is increasing the pricesare inflation, but it's also the
high cost of housing, it's thehigh cost of groceries.
So that's why I put forward anambitious plan to tackle housing
(15:36):
affordability, to endhomelessness, to help first-time
homebuyers get into the market,but also to cut the GST from 5%
to 4%, at least for a yearWe'll see how that goes but to
give people real savingsimmediately and also to really
strengthen our competitionbureau in Canada so that we
don't have any more of this fakecompetition, that people have
(15:57):
real choice and better prices.
Aaron Pete (15:59):
Mark Carney has gone on Jon Stewart and Chrystia
Freeland has gone on Jon Stewartand Chrystia Freeland has gone
on Bill Maher's show.
And from a Canadian'sperspective, in a time where it
feels like the tensions are highamong Canadians and Americans,
I'm wondering how you digest thefact that they're going on
American media when there isthis high tension between us.
Karina Gould (16:22):
Yeah, well, I think it's important for us to
be on Canadian media.
I think that's really importantto support our own Canadian
media and you know I went on.
This hour has 22 minutes as oneof the first things to do, but
I also think, as a time whenPierre Palliev is threatening to
(16:42):
get rid of CBC Radio Canada, wereally do need to be supporting
our local media in Canada.
Aaron Pete (17:04):
I also think that it's important to talk to
Americans, but also to talk tothe right audience, you know,
and make sure that the messagethat we're delivering is
reaching the audience that weneed it to.
You were the only one tocriticize Mark Carney during the
English debate.
Why do you think that was?
Karina Gould (17:14):
Well, I pushed all of my colleagues.
You know it's supposed to be adebate that is what we call that
and so that means that weshould be challenging each other
on our ideas.
I think that liberal membersacross this country, we're
looking for ways to see, okay,where did the different
(17:35):
leadership candidates stand ondifferent issues?
They're looking to make aninformed choice as to who's
going to be the next leader ofour party and the prime minister
.
So they have a right to be ableto see where do I stand on
certain issues versus others,and so, you know, I pushed each
of them on.
You know different areas wherewe differentiate and I wanted to
(17:57):
understand where they stand aswell.
So it's supposed to be a debate.
It was a friendly debate, youknow, and that's good.
We're all liberals but at theend of the day, it's about the
direction of our party and thedirection of our country, and
people should be able to make aninformed choice.
Aaron Pete (18:13):
Can you make a clear differentiation?
How are you different than thetwo lead opposition?
Karina Gould (18:18):
Yeah.
So when they talk abouthouseholds, I talk about
families.
When they talk aboutproductivity, I talk about how
people can make ends meet.
You know, I'm a grassrootspolitician that has always been
connected in community, and Iknow that politics is about
people.
We absolutely need to have, youknow, a big economic plan.
(18:41):
That is, you know, not aquestion.
But at the end of the day, whois the economy?
The economy are the Canadianpeople, and it's all well and
good to say that our economicindicators look good at 30,000
feet, but if Canadians don'tfeel like they're getting ahead,
if they're struggling to payfor their groceries or put gas
in their tank, the economy isnot working for them.
(19:03):
And so the big differencebetween me and the others is
that my focus is about people.
It's about Canadians, it'sabout how to make their lives
better, whereas my colleaguesare thinking kind of at a higher
level, and that's okay too, andI think we need both of those
things.
But I think, as prime minister,your job is to listen to people
(19:23):
, it's to understand whatCanadians are going through and
to put forward solutions thatare going to make a real,
tangible difference in theirlives.
Aaron Pete (19:31):
What have you learned during your time in
government and being houseleader?
Karina Gould (19:35):
Oh gosh, I've learned so many different things
in my time in government, but Iwould say the main thing that
I've learned is that my job as apolitician is to put the human
face on policy.
I get the policy wonk stufffrom the bureaucracy, and they
do a good job, but my job is tosay okay, and how does that
(19:58):
impact people in theirday-to-day lives, and is this
the decision that is going to begood for people in Canada?
So that has been one of the bigtakeaways for me, having been a
minister for the last eightyears.
As I always push the excellentpublic servants that we have to
say okay, but what does thismean for people on the ground
(20:20):
and is that going to make theirlives better?
And then, as government houseleader, the thing that I have
learned is how to work withpeople that I don't agree with.
I have to negotiate in theHouse of Commons every single
day with conservative House ofCommons, every single day with
(20:40):
Conservative Bloc, ndp, greenMPs, and to find a way forward.
And so you know I don'tnecessarily agree and oftentimes
we don't agree, but we figureout ways to keep moving things
forward and to work forCanadians.
So I've developed some reallygood negotiating skills, but
also how to find common groundwith people where we share
different visions of the country.
Aaron Pete (21:02):
If you're successful , you're going to be going up
against, potentially, pierrePauliev, who I would say is a
very seasoned politician, a verygood communicator, and then, if
you're successful, against that, then you get to face off
against Donald Trump.
In those circumstances, and I'mwondering what can you tell
Canadians?
How can you give us reassurancethat you're up to the task to
(21:24):
go against some pretty heavyhitters?
Karina Gould (21:27):
Well, look, men like Pierre Polyev and Donald
Trump underestimate leaders likeme every single day, and that's
their mistake.
I've gone up against PierrePolyev every single day in the
House of Commons for almost adecade, so I know how to go toe
to toe with him and I know howto win.
I won in my riding ofBurlington three times.
It's typically a veryconservative riding and again, I
(21:51):
know how to fight and I knowhow to win.
And when it comes to DonaldTrump, it's all about strength.
And look, I grew up with threebrothers who played hockey.
I know how to hold my own, butmore than that it you know like.
I think what Canadians can takeaway from me is that, yes, I'm
(22:11):
nice, yes, I'm smiling, but Iknow how to fight and I know how
to fight for them.
And I have been fighting forCanadians for 10 years in the
House of Commons.
I know how to stand up tobullies and I know how to
protect what I care about, and Icare about this country.
Aaron Pete (22:29):
Last piece.
We're nearing the end of this.
This is going to air on theMonday.
I'm wondering how do peopleshow their support for the work
that you're doing?
How do they get involved inthis election as it nears a
close?
Karina Gould (22:40):
Yeah.
So first, if you've joined theLiberal Party, you can vote for
me.
You can rank me number one onyour ballot.
That's the best way you can doit and, if you'd like, you can
volunteer on my campaign.
We're going to need your helpto get out the vote and, if you
really want to, I wouldencourage you to make a donation
.
My campaign is powered bypeople, thousands of people
(23:04):
across the country, who havesent everywhere, from $10 to
$100 or more to my campaign.
Every dollar counts, and so youcan do that, whether you can
volunteer or donate, whetheryou're a member of the party or
not, and if you're a member ofthe party or not.
And if you are a member of theparty, please don't forget to
vote by March 9th.
Aaron Pete (23:23):
Karina, I really appreciate you being willing to
take this time, and I'm gratefulfor your team for setting this
up.
I have worked with the otherpotential leaders and it has
been a challenge to get theirtime.
I know that they have a lot ofobligations.
I know there's a lot going onwith this, but your team didn't
ask any questions about what Iwas going to be asking about.
They just wanted to schedulethis and share your time, and so
(23:46):
I'm very grateful for that.
I think that does speak to yourapproach of leadership of just
being willing to sit down withpeople and have the conversation
.
So kudos to you, and I wish youthe best of luck moving forward
.
Karina Gould (23:56):
Well, thanks, aaron.
Look, I'm not afraid of thehard conversations or the hard
questions.
That's what leadership is, andwe live in a democracy, and so
our job as leader, our job asprime minister, is to have a
conversation with Canadians.
So thanks so much for reachingout.
I'm glad to have it with you.
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