April 28, 2025 • 24 mins
Are crime rates being addressed? BC Attorney General Niki Sharma joins host Aaron Pete to discuss bail reform, repeat violent offenders, Indigenous overrepresentation, justice system gaps, legal aid funding, and building a safer, fairer British Columbia.
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Episode Transcript
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Aaron Pete (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger
Than Me podcast.
Here is your host, Aaron Peet.
How are we dealing with repeatviolent offenders?
I'm speaking with the AttorneyGeneral of British Columbia
about justice reform, theover-representation of
Indigenous people in thecriminal justice system, bail
conditions and legal aid funding.
My guest today is Nikki Sharma.
(00:22):
Minister Nikki Sharma, it is anhonour to have you on the show.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Would you mind brieflyintroducing yourself?
Niki Sharma (00:31):
Sure, thanks for having me.
My name's Nikki Sharma.
I'm the Attorney General DeputyPremier of the province and,
yeah, happy to be here.
Aaron Pete (00:39):
Would you mind walking us through a little bit
of your background so we canhumanize you and get to know
some of the work that you'redoing?
Niki Sharma (00:43):
Sure.
So I was raised in a very smalltown in BC called Sparwood I
don't know if the listeners knowwhere that is, but it's just in
the East Kootenays there andthen, after leaving there, I
went to law school eventuallyand was a lawyer that practiced
in Vancouver, came to politicskind of through a side door
because of the work that I wasdoing and I was really fortunate
(01:08):
to be able to work.
Most of my practice was workingwith Indigenous people and
Indigenous government, so reallygot a lot out of that
experience and wanted to go intopolitics eventually because I
saw that when you're ingovernment you could change
systems for people and that wasreally something that was really
exciting for me and I'm justgrateful to be in the position
(01:28):
that I'm in.
Aaron Pete (01:30):
My question, my first question, is really around
the landscape that you see fromyour perspective.
I hear a lot from conservativesthat they're very worried about
being more tough on crimeholding people accountable
issues in that regard, on crime,holding people accountable
issues in that regard.
And then I hear moresympathetic people who lean
liberal or lean a little bitleft being very worried about
(01:50):
that we're treating peoplefairly, that we're being
empathetic to theircircumstances, and I'm wondering
what are you seeing, what isyour understanding of the
landscape we're in in regards tojustice in British Columbia?
Niki Sharma (02:04):
Yeah, and I too have been.
I guess maybe you weren'texpressing concern, but I would
express my concern over,sometimes, the rhetoric that
comes out of how we deal withcrime and public safety.
And certainly every communityhas to have safety right.
We have to know that, you knowwe can walk our kids on the
street, that we can live in safecommunities, that everything
(02:27):
you know is taken care of inthat way, and that's something
that we're focused on.
And those solutions have manydifferent approaches to them and
they're about, you know,supporting people through mental
health challenges.
They're about supporting peoplethrough addiction challenges,
supporting people at the righttime in the right place, making
sure that, actually, one of thethings that I'm very proud of
(02:48):
our government doing isinvesting in mental health care
for young people, because weknow that if we can get young
people at the right time thatare having that first adverse
childhood experience and needhelp, that we may be able to
transform their whole life.
And then also, when we havethose people entering the
criminal justice system that arerepeat violent offenders, that
(03:10):
are shown to cause harm tocommunities and interventions
just haven't worked, then weneed to have the justice system
tooled up to respond to that.
So from our perspective, it's awhole range of solutions that
are going to help make sure thatour justice system is working
well, but also communities areworking well and people have the
supports they need.
Aaron Pete (03:30):
So I was a Native court worker for about four and
a half years assistingIndigenous people through the
legal system, and one of thepieces that I can understand
where people are coming from onis releasing people back into
the community that don't havethe supports that they need, so
they are going to go back inorder to provide for their
friends, they're going to goback to a life of crime, they're
(03:51):
going to start stealing and Ithink this is this is a hard
problem from my perspective.
It's one that's really you seeon a lot of beware pages on
facebook of this person stealingmy bike.
I have footage of this personstealing my bike and then
there's a certain level stealingmy bike, and then there's a
certain level of inaction, orwhat do you do with these types
of circumstances?
Where they're in poverty,they're often struggling with
addictions.
(04:11):
What are the potentialsolutions that we can look at to
support people, because theseare the ones that I think impact
British Columbians on aday-to-day basis is these
constant posts of like that?
We know this person's doingthis.
Niki Sharma (04:29):
We just these constant posts of like that we
know this person's doing this,we just don't know how to get
them to stop stealing fromindividuals.
Yeah, it's a really it's areally good question.
I just want to say thanks foryour service with native, native
court workers.
It's a great organization andI've seen kind of on the on the
ground about how they work, uh,with people that are entering
the justice system and how togive a full solution to that
person and the community, whichI think is really the answer.
We need the right interventionsat the right time, right, and
what ends up happening is thatif people aren't getting the
(04:50):
right solution at the right time, things can get worse for them
and their communities.
So, how we've been approachingit, we have certain
interventions that are about thekind of frontline street
response, so making sure that wehave police that are tooled up
to respond and also mentalhealth workers and also the type
(05:11):
of people that are tooled up todeescalate issues that are
happening on the street.
If there is an offender that isprolific, that is entering the
justice system a lot, we'veramped up tools to try to make
the system a lot.
We ramped up tools to try tomake the Crown Council, the
probation officer and the RCMPwork better together for those
(05:32):
individuals so we can figure outwhat the solution is.
Well, they can figure out whatthe solution is for that person
With the Indigenous justicestrategy, which I think I'm
really proud of, the work thatthe First Nation Justice
Council's done and Native courtworkers are definitely a strong
role in transforming the justicesystem for Indigenous people
and that is culturally safesupports at the right time so we
(05:53):
can transform and understandhow the impacts of colonization
have affected Indigenouscommunities and their people.
I hear, actually, about thesolutions we need across the
board and that's kind of howwe've approached the problem or
(06:13):
solving the problem.
And when people hear and theysee those videos that you're
talking about on the street, Iknow people feel like the sense
of unsafety or lack of safetythat we need to step in and
that's why we've targeteddifferent responses to different
communities.
There's about um five or sixmajor communities in the
province now that have seen adecrease in crime rates, um as a
(06:35):
result of the, as a result ofsome of the targeted support.
So working with rcmp, workingwith the social services systems
in those communities, likesituationables, is another
example of that.
They've seen a drop in levelsof petty crime and also levels
of unprovoked stranger violence.
I mean, one is too many, so wecan't stop working to make sure
(06:56):
it keeps going down.
But it's a complicated problemand we have to intervene in all
possible ways to prevent thosetypes of things from happening.
Aaron Pete (07:06):
A Research Co survey found that 87% of British
Columbians support tougher bailconditions for repeat offenders.
I'm wondering how do you takethat information and what action
is being taken based on thatresearch?
Niki Sharma (07:18):
Yeah, it's a really good point.
So we've been a leader in BC onbail reform and I track that
very closely when it comes to uhhow our bail system is working.
We need to have strong baillaws and we advocated and
actually were able to get otherevery other province to agree
with us uh to advocate to thefederal government to change
rules on bail, particularly forrepeat violent offenders that we
(07:41):
know are uh are dangerous tocommunities and themselves.
And we got that bail reform inJanuary so that the judges who
are there determining whether ornot somebody should really be
released on bail or not, itswitches their onus on them.
So instead of saying which isgenerally the case, innocent
until proven guilty and you arefree before your trial, which is
(08:03):
how our justice system worksthere are those occasions where
we ask the judge instead to doreverse onus, to say that
instead you should see is itsafe to release this person,
rather than the default beingthe release, and those are
situations where intimatepartner violence does at play,
where there's repeat violentoffending, if there's a risk to
(08:25):
community, and so the justicesystem is better tool to respond
to them.
I still think there's work to doon making sure our bail system
is strong and working and we'realways looking at different ways
to either push on the federalgovernment because they hold the
criminal law in the end,provinces don't hold the
criminal law and it makes sense,right?
You wouldn't have each provincehaving a different set of
(08:45):
criminal rules, right?
So if you go to Alberta, youcan do this.
So it's a nationwide system andwe've also tried to tool up our
system in BC better to respond.
So there's been a few wayswe've looked at it and we're
going to continue to advocatefor better changes.
Aaron Pete (09:01):
I'm going to walk you through my understanding
again, working in the courtsystem, and I want to see where
my gaps of understanding mightexist.
So I would have a person comein.
They'd need support.
They may be struggling with anaddiction, struggling with
homelessness, they've stolensomething which has frustrated a
business or a person, and I'mtrying to help them.
I go through a resource list ofsomething to help with their
(09:22):
addiction and there very limitedresources on this front and I
know that that doesn't falldirectly within your purview,
but these are the challengesI've come up against.
There's this resource, there'sthat resource, maybe this one's
more of a religious resourcethat doesn't really fit what
they're looking for.
We don't have a lot ofculturally appropriate treatment
or services for individualsstruggling with that.
(09:43):
Sometimes there's wait lists,sometimes they need some
documentation in order to beable to access that.
Then it's.
The question is how are wegoing to pay for this?
And so these are the questions.
The judge is asking me hey,what resources are available to
this person?
I'm going, we have theSalvation Army, we have this
resource and it's all voluntary.
This person has to choose towant to stick with this, and
(10:05):
then they go to this recoveryhouse or this treatment center
and the person goes this isn'tthe fit for me, so I'm going to
leave.
Now they're breaching theirbail conditions.
Now they're back before thecourts and then I'm again trying
to advocate for them.
Here's some other resourcesthat you might be able to access
.
Again, not a good fit or thosetypes of challenges are what
I've seen us run into and myunderstanding and again correct
(10:28):
me where I'm wrong was theapproach was going to be we're
going to be more understandingand sympathetic to people
struggling with addiction.
We're going to take approach ofsafe supply to people struggling
with addiction.
We're going to take approach ofsafe supply, but the
underpinning was always going tobe there's going to be more
treatment centers, there's goingto be more resources to help
get them off of that.
And to me, we're stuck in this,this in-between world, where
we're providing safe supply butwe don't have sufficient
(10:50):
treatment centers or recoveryhomes that are run by the
province instead of by, likeoften my clients would say it
was a person in this recoveryhome that was the one selling me
the drugs and I was vulnerableand I'm trying to get back on my
feet and I ended up acceptingand now I'm back in this
terrible circumstance it's.
These are the gaps that I wouldoften see and I'm wondering am
I in the same place as you or isthere something I'm missing?
Niki Sharma (11:13):
Yeah, I think your analysis is one that's obviously
from seeing on the front linewhat the gaps are.
It's why we know there's been achronic lack of resources in BC
when it relates to treatmentand recovery and we as a
government have been stepping upacross the province.
So we put $1 billion it's arecord amount into expanding our
(11:34):
addictions and mental healthsupports across this province.
I talked about the Foundryprogram that's expanding across
schools for young youth mentalhealth supports and I think
we've opened up close to 800 orsomething new beds or new
treatment centers across theprovince.
But there's totally more workto do, especially in parts of
(11:56):
the province that are generallyunderserved with these types of
services, and we've tried toreduce wait times to get from
detox to treatment, becauseoftentimes and we've had some
pilot programs that are reallysuccessful instead of waiting
for three days, you can get adetox quickly, so you're not
letting that person change theirmind, as addictions is
something that's very difficultfor people to overcome.
(12:20):
So absolutely we need to makesure that all those services are
at the hand of people likeyourself that were Native court
workers and ready to present tothe judge with the if there's a
gladiator report or whatever'sbefore the judge saying this is
what this person is going to doin the community.
And another resource that'sexpanded quite a bit is with the
(12:43):
Indigenous Justice Centre.
So there are now 15 of thoseacross the province and the idea
of those centres is to providethose kind of very frontline
services for an Indigenousperson that's encountering the
justice system.
So they are tooled up withconnecting with all those
organizations and also have beenable to secure funding in
(13:05):
different ways to help withthose culturally appropriate
programs that you're talkingabout and the communities that
they operate in.
So what is it?
And I think there's so muchpotential there because if
they're set up in those 15locations across BC, they're
going to start to be able torespond locally to what's needed
right there for that individual, whether it's the network of
connections of the organizationsthat are out there or building
(13:28):
up those connections.
And they have some diversionprograms that they're working on
that are culturally appropriate, that they're working on that
are culturally appropriate.
So a person like yourself youwere talking about representing
somebody and wants to presentthe supports that this person
will have in community will havebetter tools to be able to do
that.
Aaron Pete (13:46):
The piece around Indigenous justice and the
approach being taken.
I have a question for you, andperhaps it's a bit complicated.
I had the privilege of doingthat work.
I got to be involved in helpingpeople connect with important
services.
My fear, though, is we've donethis a lot and just the track
record of evidence.
(14:06):
I don't know if you feel thesame way.
It's not working, and it's notworking because I wasn't doing
my job or Native court workersweren't doing the job, but the
Native court workers existed for50 years and the numbers
continue to go up in terms ofIndigenous over-representation
and putting Indigenous peopleinto the courts or sorry, the
jail system to support peopleand to provide culturally
(14:29):
appropriate services.
It's just it's not having theimpact.
Gladue has existed for over 20years now.
It has not brought down therates of incarceration of
Indigenous people, and I'm notsaying that the Indigenous
justice centres won't work.
Obviously, this is very new,but my fear is that a lot of
this may not be underpinned byclear evidence that it's going
(14:50):
to have the effect that it needsto, and I understand.
I know a lot of people at theFirst Nations Justice Council.
I know that their heart isfully in it.
My fear is that we're goingdown a path and we don't know
where we're going to end up.
And what if, in 15 years, we'veinvested all of this money,
we've built all these justicecenters and there is no evidence
that we're bringing down theserates?
And I'm wondering how yougrapple with that, because I'm
(15:12):
sure that your goal, yourintention, is to address these
issues.
Niki Sharma (15:15):
Yeah, so we are working on, I think, to your
point, we need to make sure thatthose programs are working.
I'll tell you what I've seen.
What I've seen in the lastmaybe few years is I think
Gladue reports have been aroundfor a long time and the thing
that I heard and seen and Iwonder your perspective on this
is that they weren't being usedto their maximum in the system.
(15:37):
Wonder, your perspective onthis is that they weren't being
used to their maximum in thesystem and the the system, like
the judges and the crown counciland the defense council
sometimes were not, except forwhen there were really dedicated
workers like the native courtworkers.
The whole system in itselfwasn't necessarily using the
gladiator reports to the abilitythat it could, and what I was.
What I've been seeing in thelast couple years and I meet
(15:58):
with the judiciary quite oftenand I meet with Crown Council
and I meet with Defence is apretty constant ask for how are
we incorporating GLADU into ourlike?
They're asking me as theAttorney General about the use
of these reports and how we canintegrate it with their systems.
I see that has changed over thelast two years to the point
(16:19):
where the number of reports,even requested of the Justice
Council, has gone up because thesystem is recognizing that it's
a vitally important aspect ofit.
So I guess I'm hopeful thatwith that change that I've seen,
with the demand that that willmean that the outcomes will be
better.
We'll be watching for that,that we'll actually see the
(16:39):
decrease of incarceration ofIndigenous people and the track
two, which is the upholding ofIndigenous legal orders, so
having different ways that arenot the colonial ways
necessarily of resolvingdisputes to bring a more whole
outcome for that community andthat individual.
I'm hopeful that we'll start tosee that and I've certainly seen
(17:00):
that our justice system in BCand I think I was in a
conversation with other justicesystems in the country and I've
seen us like really take offwhen it comes to our different
actors understanding howimportant this work is and it
gives me hope that we're goingto turn the corner.
That was, I think, really whatyour point is a solid one.
(17:22):
For 50 years the Nativecourtrooms have been working on
the front line of this.
Gladiator reports have beenaround for 20 years.
Aaron Pete (17:28):
It's too bad that it takes the system so long to
kind of maybe fully adopt orunderstand its role in it, but
hopefully that's what'shappening now my perspective is
I had the privilege of workingwith uh crown council in
chilliwack, abbotsford, surrey,vancouver, um bella bella doing
circuit court and everybodywants good, fair outcomes, that
(17:53):
that put people back home withtheir families.
Like, like I understand a lotof the arguments around systemic
racism.
I just dealt with a lot ofpeople who were like, give me
the resource that I can let likea judge would be.
Like, just give me the resourcewhere I know this person's
going to stay on the right track.
You give me that resource.
I don't, and like I struggle.
I go back and forth with FirstNations court and the part that
(18:14):
I don't like is it becomes.
It's very meaningful for thepeople involved because they're
watching somebody spill theirheart and their soul out in
front of them and so it'scathartic for people to go wow,
this person's really opening upabout how they were abused and
what they overcame.
But to me that's for acounsellor, that's for a
one-on-one counsellor, and a lotof the information that I see
(18:35):
get put into GLADU reports or Iused to do GLADU letters is not
for the public eye, it's not tobe discussed in front of people.
The thing they need is thisperson's struggling.
They need resources.
I'm scared to share too muchabout somebody's personal
circumstance because those areall what we would call in
probation risk factors, concernsabout whether or not they're
(18:56):
actually going to follow through.
We don't need a long biographyon the person.
Again, it's cathartic for theperson to share their life and
what they've been through, butsome of that leaks into.
Is this absolutely necessaryfor a judge to make a decision,
or do they just need informationon where are we sending this
person?
What resources are they tappinginto that they weren't prior to
interacting with the system?
(19:16):
And so I just worry about thesepieces becoming almost like
struggle sessions, where we'republicly sharing people's the
darkest things people have beenthrough.
And I worry about that on apersonal sense, because it's so
meaningful when you're the judgeor when you're the Crown
Counsel or when you're thedefense counsel to hear what
people have been through.
But that's really not what thisdiscussion should be about.
(19:37):
It should be how this person'sstruggling, how do we help them,
and so I just I worry aboutthose pieces as just almost
re-victimizing or oversharingpeople's personal circumstances.
Niki Sharma (19:46):
Yeah, I know I take your point like everything has
to be really respectful.
The times that I've witnessedand been followed followed the
outcomes for some of the FirstNations courts from my
understanding and I'd beinterested in.
Maybe your perspective would beslightly different.
If it's done well, it can havemore transformative impacts on
that individual.
(20:06):
And that's the real focus.
You're right, it's not aboutlike airing your trauma to the
system.
It's about saying we see you asa human and not as an accused
and we want to support you andabsolutely that means that the
supports on the other end ofthat have to be there.
Right, you have to be able toconfidently say like here's what
we're doing with this.
We're doing to help you rightTo overcome this, and it has to
(20:29):
be like a longer term process.
So I completely agree with youand I think we have to be always
cognizant about how processeswork, so they're not just an
exercise of, as you mentioned,airing your pain, but they are a
productive, holistic approach.
And one thing that I have to say, things that I'm learning about
, is that I'm not sure that ourjustice system in a lot of ways,
(20:52):
I think the system has thingsto learn about more restorative,
more holistic ways ofresolution, and I see that in
family law.
I see that like it's not justin criminal law where you think
about, and what I hear is thatsometimes people feel
re-traumatized when they've gone, they've had to go to the
justice system whether it becriminal or family, and it's for
(21:13):
a resolution and they leavefeeling like they're more
traumatized, like their familyis further apart.
So we've been doing a lot ofwork just to introduce things
that I think we should do betterin the system, because the flip
side of not seeing the personas a human is that you lose a
(21:34):
resolution that could be deeperthan just or that could be more
transformative.
Right for that problem you'retrying to solve.
Aaron Pete (21:42):
I agree, and I don't mean to disparage any of the
work going on by otherorganizations.
I just I do fear that it's verytough for certain people to be
able to voice criticisms orconcerns about the path that,
say, the BC First NationsJustice Council is taking, and I
think it's just important thatwe we put out warning signs.
Niki Sharma (22:00):
That's the bell, which is funny.
I live.
I live in a.
I live in an environment ofworking about, where I have
bells that tell me where I haveto go.
I don't know if you heard that.
Aaron Pete (22:08):
I did yes.
Can I ask two more quickquestions?
Niki Sharma (22:11):
Um, I have probably two more minutes and then I can
.
I can sneak off, so go ahead goahead.
Aaron Pete (22:15):
Sounds good, Okay.
Legal aid funding.
The BC branch of the CanadianBar Association recently
criticized the 2024 budget forfailing to provide new legal aid
funding, and I'm wondering wasthere a rationale behind that?
Niki Sharma (22:28):
Yeah, you know what ?
I'm always looking for ways toexpand access to justice, and
part of it is, I think,definitely legal funding, and
last year we were able to infusea record amount into legal aid,
so $29 million additional,which is quite the infusion into
family law legal aid.
We're also and I'm alwayslooking for ways that we can
(22:50):
expand that, so I'll continue todo so.
Also, we're transformingsystems, which is also a form of
access to justice.
So, particularly for family law, we have different resources
that can reduce conflict.
So the early resolution processis an example of that.
We piloted in Victoria andSurrey and what was that?
That was like a legalinformation, a very effective
(23:16):
way of getting resources topeople before it goes to court,
and what we saw was 80%reduction in court time and
trials and 80% reduction, Ithink, in both Victoria and
Surrey.
So we're expanding that acrossthe province.
So what that means is that Iknow it's important to access a
lawyer, but that if you canresolve it even without that,
then that's an amazing, but thatif you can resolve it even
(23:38):
without that, then that's anamazing, hopefully more holistic
approach.
So, yeah, I'm continuallylooking at ways to expand and
continue to increase legal aidand I really expect the system
to keep asking.
So I appreciate that they doand I'll continue to do the work
.
Aaron Pete (23:50):
Sounds good.
Thank you so much for beingwilling to share your time today
.
I very much appreciate it.
Can you tell people how theycan follow your work?
Niki Sharma (23:59):
So you can follow me.
I have an Instagram and BlueSky.
I'm not on Twitter anymore,which is great for my mental
health.
I'm happy to even reach out tome in many different ways.
If you just search Nikki Sharma, you'll find all the ways and
thank you for having me.
Really great to be here.
Aaron Pete (24:17):
Thank you so much for being willing to share your
time and so many insights.
Have a great day.
Niki Sharma (24:21):
Take care, thanks, bye.
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger
Than Me podcast.
Here is your host, Aaron Peet.
How are we dealing with repeatviolent offenders?
I'm speaking with the AttorneyGeneral of British Columbia
about justice reform, theover-representation of
Indigenous people in thecriminal justice system, bail
conditions and legal aid funding.
My guest today is Nikki Sharma.
(00:22):
Minister Nikki Sharma, it is anhonour to have you on the show.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Would you mind brieflyintroducing yourself?
Niki Sharma (00:31):
Sure, thanks for having me.
My name's Nikki Sharma.
I'm the Attorney General DeputyPremier of the province and,
yeah, happy to be here.
Aaron Pete (00:39):
Would you mind walking us through a little bit
of your background so we canhumanize you and get to know
some of the work that you'redoing?
Niki Sharma (00:43):
Sure.
So I was raised in a very smalltown in BC called Sparwood I
don't know if the listeners knowwhere that is, but it's just in
the East Kootenays there andthen, after leaving there, I
went to law school eventuallyand was a lawyer that practiced
in Vancouver, came to politicskind of through a side door
because of the work that I wasdoing and I was really fortunate
(01:08):
to be able to work.
Most of my practice was workingwith Indigenous people and
Indigenous government, so reallygot a lot out of that
experience and wanted to go intopolitics eventually because I
saw that when you're ingovernment you could change
systems for people and that wasreally something that was really
exciting for me and I'm justgrateful to be in the position
(01:28):
that I'm in.
Aaron Pete (01:30):
My question, my first question, is really around
the landscape that you see fromyour perspective.
I hear a lot from conservativesthat they're very worried about
being more tough on crimeholding people accountable
issues in that regard, on crime,holding people accountable
issues in that regard.
And then I hear moresympathetic people who lean
liberal or lean a little bitleft being very worried about
(01:50):
that we're treating peoplefairly, that we're being
empathetic to theircircumstances, and I'm wondering
what are you seeing, what isyour understanding of the
landscape we're in in regards tojustice in British Columbia?
Niki Sharma (02:04):
Yeah, and I too have been.
I guess maybe you weren'texpressing concern, but I would
express my concern over,sometimes, the rhetoric that
comes out of how we deal withcrime and public safety.
And certainly every communityhas to have safety right.
We have to know that, you knowwe can walk our kids on the
street, that we can live in safecommunities, that everything
(02:27):
you know is taken care of inthat way, and that's something
that we're focused on.
And those solutions have manydifferent approaches to them and
they're about, you know,supporting people through mental
health challenges.
They're about supporting peoplethrough addiction challenges,
supporting people at the righttime in the right place, making
sure that, actually, one of thethings that I'm very proud of
(02:48):
our government doing isinvesting in mental health care
for young people, because weknow that if we can get young
people at the right time thatare having that first adverse
childhood experience and needhelp, that we may be able to
transform their whole life.
And then also, when we havethose people entering the
criminal justice system that arerepeat violent offenders, that
(03:10):
are shown to cause harm tocommunities and interventions
just haven't worked, then weneed to have the justice system
tooled up to respond to that.
So from our perspective, it's awhole range of solutions that
are going to help make sure thatour justice system is working
well, but also communities areworking well and people have the
supports they need.
Aaron Pete (03:30):
So I was a Native court worker for about four and
a half years assistingIndigenous people through the
legal system, and one of thepieces that I can understand
where people are coming from onis releasing people back into
the community that don't havethe supports that they need, so
they are going to go back inorder to provide for their
friends, they're going to goback to a life of crime, they're
(03:51):
going to start stealing and Ithink this is this is a hard
problem from my perspective.
It's one that's really you seeon a lot of beware pages on
facebook of this person stealingmy bike.
I have footage of this personstealing my bike and then
there's a certain level stealingmy bike, and then there's a
certain level of inaction, orwhat do you do with these types
of circumstances?
Where they're in poverty,they're often struggling with
addictions.
(04:11):
What are the potentialsolutions that we can look at to
support people, because theseare the ones that I think impact
British Columbians on aday-to-day basis is these
constant posts of like that?
We know this person's doingthis.
Niki Sharma (04:29):
We just these constant posts of like that we
know this person's doing this,we just don't know how to get
them to stop stealing fromindividuals.
Yeah, it's a really it's areally good question.
I just want to say thanks foryour service with native, native
court workers.
It's a great organization andI've seen kind of on the on the
ground about how they work, uh,with people that are entering
the justice system and how togive a full solution to that
person and the community, whichI think is really the answer.
We need the right interventionsat the right time, right, and
what ends up happening is thatif people aren't getting the
(04:50):
right solution at the right time, things can get worse for them
and their communities.
So, how we've been approachingit, we have certain
interventions that are about thekind of frontline street
response, so making sure that wehave police that are tooled up
to respond and also mentalhealth workers and also the type
(05:11):
of people that are tooled up todeescalate issues that are
happening on the street.
If there is an offender that isprolific, that is entering the
justice system a lot, we'veramped up tools to try to make
the system a lot.
We ramped up tools to try tomake the Crown Council, the
probation officer and the RCMPwork better together for those
(05:32):
individuals so we can figure outwhat the solution is.
Well, they can figure out whatthe solution is for that person
With the Indigenous justicestrategy, which I think I'm
really proud of, the work thatthe First Nation Justice
Council's done and Native courtworkers are definitely a strong
role in transforming the justicesystem for Indigenous people
and that is culturally safesupports at the right time so we
(05:53):
can transform and understandhow the impacts of colonization
have affected Indigenouscommunities and their people.
I hear, actually, about thesolutions we need across the
board and that's kind of howwe've approached the problem or
(06:13):
solving the problem.
And when people hear and theysee those videos that you're
talking about on the street, Iknow people feel like the sense
of unsafety or lack of safetythat we need to step in and
that's why we've targeteddifferent responses to different
communities.
There's about um five or sixmajor communities in the
province now that have seen adecrease in crime rates, um as a
(06:35):
result of the, as a result ofsome of the targeted support.
So working with rcmp, workingwith the social services systems
in those communities, likesituationables, is another
example of that.
They've seen a drop in levelsof petty crime and also levels
of unprovoked stranger violence.
I mean, one is too many, so wecan't stop working to make sure
(06:56):
it keeps going down.
But it's a complicated problemand we have to intervene in all
possible ways to prevent thosetypes of things from happening.
Aaron Pete (07:06):
A Research Co survey found that 87% of British
Columbians support tougher bailconditions for repeat offenders.
I'm wondering how do you takethat information and what action
is being taken based on thatresearch?
Niki Sharma (07:18):
Yeah, it's a really good point.
So we've been a leader in BC onbail reform and I track that
very closely when it comes to uhhow our bail system is working.
We need to have strong baillaws and we advocated and
actually were able to get otherevery other province to agree
with us uh to advocate to thefederal government to change
rules on bail, particularly forrepeat violent offenders that we
(07:41):
know are uh are dangerous tocommunities and themselves.
And we got that bail reform inJanuary so that the judges who
are there determining whether ornot somebody should really be
released on bail or not, itswitches their onus on them.
So instead of saying which isgenerally the case, innocent
until proven guilty and you arefree before your trial, which is
(08:03):
how our justice system worksthere are those occasions where
we ask the judge instead to doreverse onus, to say that
instead you should see is itsafe to release this person,
rather than the default beingthe release, and those are
situations where intimatepartner violence does at play,
where there's repeat violentoffending, if there's a risk to
(08:25):
community, and so the justicesystem is better tool to respond
to them.
I still think there's work to doon making sure our bail system
is strong and working and we'realways looking at different ways
to either push on the federalgovernment because they hold the
criminal law in the end,provinces don't hold the
criminal law and it makes sense,right?
You wouldn't have each provincehaving a different set of
(08:45):
criminal rules, right?
So if you go to Alberta, youcan do this.
So it's a nationwide system andwe've also tried to tool up our
system in BC better to respond.
So there's been a few wayswe've looked at it and we're
going to continue to advocatefor better changes.
Aaron Pete (09:01):
I'm going to walk you through my understanding
again, working in the courtsystem, and I want to see where
my gaps of understanding mightexist.
So I would have a person comein.
They'd need support.
They may be struggling with anaddiction, struggling with
homelessness, they've stolensomething which has frustrated a
business or a person, and I'mtrying to help them.
I go through a resource list ofsomething to help with their
(09:22):
addiction and there very limitedresources on this front and I
know that that doesn't falldirectly within your purview,
but these are the challengesI've come up against.
There's this resource, there'sthat resource, maybe this one's
more of a religious resourcethat doesn't really fit what
they're looking for.
We don't have a lot ofculturally appropriate treatment
or services for individualsstruggling with that.
(09:43):
Sometimes there's wait lists,sometimes they need some
documentation in order to beable to access that.
Then it's.
The question is how are wegoing to pay for this?
And so these are the questions.
The judge is asking me hey,what resources are available to
this person?
I'm going, we have theSalvation Army, we have this
resource and it's all voluntary.
This person has to choose towant to stick with this, and
(10:05):
then they go to this recoveryhouse or this treatment center
and the person goes this isn'tthe fit for me, so I'm going to
leave.
Now they're breaching theirbail conditions.
Now they're back before thecourts and then I'm again trying
to advocate for them.
Here's some other resourcesthat you might be able to access
.
Again, not a good fit or thosetypes of challenges are what
I've seen us run into and myunderstanding and again correct
(10:28):
me where I'm wrong was theapproach was going to be we're
going to be more understandingand sympathetic to people
struggling with addiction.
We're going to take approach ofsafe supply to people struggling
with addiction.
We're going to take approach ofsafe supply, but the
underpinning was always going tobe there's going to be more
treatment centers, there's goingto be more resources to help
get them off of that.
And to me, we're stuck in this,this in-between world, where
we're providing safe supply butwe don't have sufficient
(10:50):
treatment centers or recoveryhomes that are run by the
province instead of by, likeoften my clients would say it
was a person in this recoveryhome that was the one selling me
the drugs and I was vulnerableand I'm trying to get back on my
feet and I ended up acceptingand now I'm back in this
terrible circumstance it's.
These are the gaps that I wouldoften see and I'm wondering am
I in the same place as you or isthere something I'm missing?
Niki Sharma (11:13):
Yeah, I think your analysis is one that's obviously
from seeing on the front linewhat the gaps are.
It's why we know there's been achronic lack of resources in BC
when it relates to treatmentand recovery and we as a
government have been stepping upacross the province.
So we put $1 billion it's arecord amount into expanding our
(11:34):
addictions and mental healthsupports across this province.
I talked about the Foundryprogram that's expanding across
schools for young youth mentalhealth supports and I think
we've opened up close to 800 orsomething new beds or new
treatment centers across theprovince.
But there's totally more workto do, especially in parts of
(11:56):
the province that are generallyunderserved with these types of
services, and we've tried toreduce wait times to get from
detox to treatment, becauseoftentimes and we've had some
pilot programs that are reallysuccessful instead of waiting
for three days, you can get adetox quickly, so you're not
letting that person change theirmind, as addictions is
something that's very difficultfor people to overcome.
(12:20):
So absolutely we need to makesure that all those services are
at the hand of people likeyourself that were Native court
workers and ready to present tothe judge with the if there's a
gladiator report or whatever'sbefore the judge saying this is
what this person is going to doin the community.
And another resource that'sexpanded quite a bit is with the
(12:43):
Indigenous Justice Centre.
So there are now 15 of thoseacross the province and the idea
of those centres is to providethose kind of very frontline
services for an Indigenousperson that's encountering the
justice system.
So they are tooled up withconnecting with all those
organizations and also have beenable to secure funding in
(13:05):
different ways to help withthose culturally appropriate
programs that you're talkingabout and the communities that
they operate in.
So what is it?
And I think there's so muchpotential there because if
they're set up in those 15locations across BC, they're
going to start to be able torespond locally to what's needed
right there for that individual, whether it's the network of
connections of the organizationsthat are out there or building
(13:28):
up those connections.
And they have some diversionprograms that they're working on
that are culturally appropriate, that they're working on that
are culturally appropriate.
So a person like yourself youwere talking about representing
somebody and wants to presentthe supports that this person
will have in community will havebetter tools to be able to do
that.
Aaron Pete (13:46):
The piece around Indigenous justice and the
approach being taken.
I have a question for you, andperhaps it's a bit complicated.
I had the privilege of doingthat work.
I got to be involved in helpingpeople connect with important
services.
My fear, though, is we've donethis a lot and just the track
record of evidence.
(14:06):
I don't know if you feel thesame way.
It's not working, and it's notworking because I wasn't doing
my job or Native court workersweren't doing the job, but the
Native court workers existed for50 years and the numbers
continue to go up in terms ofIndigenous over-representation
and putting Indigenous peopleinto the courts or sorry, the
jail system to support peopleand to provide culturally
(14:29):
appropriate services.
It's just it's not having theimpact.
Gladue has existed for over 20years now.
It has not brought down therates of incarceration of
Indigenous people, and I'm notsaying that the Indigenous
justice centres won't work.
Obviously, this is very new,but my fear is that a lot of
this may not be underpinned byclear evidence that it's going
(14:50):
to have the effect that it needsto, and I understand.
I know a lot of people at theFirst Nations Justice Council.
I know that their heart isfully in it.
My fear is that we're goingdown a path and we don't know
where we're going to end up.
And what if, in 15 years, we'veinvested all of this money,
we've built all these justicecenters and there is no evidence
that we're bringing down theserates?
And I'm wondering how yougrapple with that, because I'm
(15:12):
sure that your goal, yourintention, is to address these
issues.
Niki Sharma (15:15):
Yeah, so we are working on, I think, to your
point, we need to make sure thatthose programs are working.
I'll tell you what I've seen.
What I've seen in the lastmaybe few years is I think
Gladue reports have been aroundfor a long time and the thing
that I heard and seen and Iwonder your perspective on this
is that they weren't being usedto their maximum in the system.
(15:37):
Wonder, your perspective onthis is that they weren't being
used to their maximum in thesystem and the the system, like
the judges and the crown counciland the defense council
sometimes were not, except forwhen there were really dedicated
workers like the native courtworkers.
The whole system in itselfwasn't necessarily using the
gladiator reports to the abilitythat it could, and what I was.
What I've been seeing in thelast couple years and I meet
(15:58):
with the judiciary quite oftenand I meet with Crown Council
and I meet with Defence is apretty constant ask for how are
we incorporating GLADU into ourlike?
They're asking me as theAttorney General about the use
of these reports and how we canintegrate it with their systems.
I see that has changed over thelast two years to the point
(16:19):
where the number of reports,even requested of the Justice
Council, has gone up because thesystem is recognizing that it's
a vitally important aspect ofit.
So I guess I'm hopeful thatwith that change that I've seen,
with the demand that that willmean that the outcomes will be
better.
We'll be watching for that,that we'll actually see the
(16:39):
decrease of incarceration ofIndigenous people and the track
two, which is the upholding ofIndigenous legal orders, so
having different ways that arenot the colonial ways
necessarily of resolvingdisputes to bring a more whole
outcome for that community andthat individual.
I'm hopeful that we'll start tosee that and I've certainly seen
(17:00):
that our justice system in BCand I think I was in a
conversation with other justicesystems in the country and I've
seen us like really take offwhen it comes to our different
actors understanding howimportant this work is and it
gives me hope that we're goingto turn the corner.
That was, I think, really whatyour point is a solid one.
(17:22):
For 50 years the Nativecourtrooms have been working on
the front line of this.
Gladiator reports have beenaround for 20 years.
Aaron Pete (17:28):
It's too bad that it takes the system so long to
kind of maybe fully adopt orunderstand its role in it, but
hopefully that's what'shappening now my perspective is
I had the privilege of workingwith uh crown council in
chilliwack, abbotsford, surrey,vancouver, um bella bella doing
circuit court and everybodywants good, fair outcomes, that
(17:53):
that put people back home withtheir families.
Like, like I understand a lotof the arguments around systemic
racism.
I just dealt with a lot ofpeople who were like, give me
the resource that I can let likea judge would be.
Like, just give me the resourcewhere I know this person's
going to stay on the right track.
You give me that resource.
I don't, and like I struggle.
I go back and forth with FirstNations court and the part that
(18:14):
I don't like is it becomes.
It's very meaningful for thepeople involved because they're
watching somebody spill theirheart and their soul out in
front of them and so it'scathartic for people to go wow,
this person's really opening upabout how they were abused and
what they overcame.
But to me that's for acounsellor, that's for a
one-on-one counsellor, and a lotof the information that I see
(18:35):
get put into GLADU reports or Iused to do GLADU letters is not
for the public eye, it's not tobe discussed in front of people.
The thing they need is thisperson's struggling.
They need resources.
I'm scared to share too muchabout somebody's personal
circumstance because those areall what we would call in
probation risk factors, concernsabout whether or not they're
(18:56):
actually going to follow through.
We don't need a long biographyon the person.
Again, it's cathartic for theperson to share their life and
what they've been through, butsome of that leaks into.
Is this absolutely necessaryfor a judge to make a decision,
or do they just need informationon where are we sending this
person?
What resources are they tappinginto that they weren't prior to
interacting with the system?
(19:16):
And so I just worry about thesepieces becoming almost like
struggle sessions, where we'republicly sharing people's the
darkest things people have beenthrough.
And I worry about that on apersonal sense, because it's so
meaningful when you're the judgeor when you're the Crown
Counsel or when you're thedefense counsel to hear what
people have been through.
But that's really not what thisdiscussion should be about.
(19:37):
It should be how this person'sstruggling, how do we help them,
and so I just I worry aboutthose pieces as just almost
re-victimizing or oversharingpeople's personal circumstances.
Niki Sharma (19:46):
Yeah, I know I take your point like everything has
to be really respectful.
The times that I've witnessedand been followed followed the
outcomes for some of the FirstNations courts from my
understanding and I'd beinterested in.
Maybe your perspective would beslightly different.
If it's done well, it can havemore transformative impacts on
that individual.
(20:06):
And that's the real focus.
You're right, it's not aboutlike airing your trauma to the
system.
It's about saying we see you asa human and not as an accused
and we want to support you andabsolutely that means that the
supports on the other end ofthat have to be there.
Right, you have to be able toconfidently say like here's what
we're doing with this.
We're doing to help you rightTo overcome this, and it has to
(20:29):
be like a longer term process.
So I completely agree with youand I think we have to be always
cognizant about how processeswork, so they're not just an
exercise of, as you mentioned,airing your pain, but they are a
productive, holistic approach.
And one thing that I have to say, things that I'm learning about
, is that I'm not sure that ourjustice system in a lot of ways,
(20:52):
I think the system has thingsto learn about more restorative,
more holistic ways ofresolution, and I see that in
family law.
I see that like it's not justin criminal law where you think
about, and what I hear is thatsometimes people feel
re-traumatized when they've gone, they've had to go to the
justice system whether it becriminal or family, and it's for
(21:13):
a resolution and they leavefeeling like they're more
traumatized, like their familyis further apart.
So we've been doing a lot ofwork just to introduce things
that I think we should do betterin the system, because the flip
side of not seeing the personas a human is that you lose a
(21:34):
resolution that could be deeperthan just or that could be more
transformative.
Right for that problem you'retrying to solve.
Aaron Pete (21:42):
I agree, and I don't mean to disparage any of the
work going on by otherorganizations.
I just I do fear that it's verytough for certain people to be
able to voice criticisms orconcerns about the path that,
say, the BC First NationsJustice Council is taking, and I
think it's just important thatwe we put out warning signs.
Niki Sharma (22:00):
That's the bell, which is funny.
I live.
I live in a.
I live in an environment ofworking about, where I have
bells that tell me where I haveto go.
I don't know if you heard that.
Aaron Pete (22:08):
I did yes.
Can I ask two more quickquestions?
Niki Sharma (22:11):
Um, I have probably two more minutes and then I can
.
I can sneak off, so go ahead goahead.
Aaron Pete (22:15):
Sounds good, Okay.
Legal aid funding.
The BC branch of the CanadianBar Association recently
criticized the 2024 budget forfailing to provide new legal aid
funding, and I'm wondering wasthere a rationale behind that?
Niki Sharma (22:28):
Yeah, you know what ?
I'm always looking for ways toexpand access to justice, and
part of it is, I think,definitely legal funding, and
last year we were able to infusea record amount into legal aid,
so $29 million additional,which is quite the infusion into
family law legal aid.
We're also and I'm alwayslooking for ways that we can
(22:50):
expand that, so I'll continue todo so.
Also, we're transformingsystems, which is also a form of
access to justice.
So, particularly for family law, we have different resources
that can reduce conflict.
So the early resolution processis an example of that.
We piloted in Victoria andSurrey and what was that?
That was like a legalinformation, a very effective
(23:16):
way of getting resources topeople before it goes to court,
and what we saw was 80%reduction in court time and
trials and 80% reduction, Ithink, in both Victoria and
Surrey.
So we're expanding that acrossthe province.
So what that means is that Iknow it's important to access a
lawyer, but that if you canresolve it even without that,
then that's an amazing, but thatif you can resolve it even
(23:38):
without that, then that's anamazing, hopefully more holistic
approach.
So, yeah, I'm continuallylooking at ways to expand and
continue to increase legal aidand I really expect the system
to keep asking.
So I appreciate that they doand I'll continue to do the work
.
Aaron Pete (23:50):
Sounds good.
Thank you so much for beingwilling to share your time today
.
I very much appreciate it.
Can you tell people how theycan follow your work?
Niki Sharma (23:59):
So you can follow me.
I have an Instagram and BlueSky.
I'm not on Twitter anymore,which is great for my mental
health.
I'm happy to even reach out tome in many different ways.
If you just search Nikki Sharma, you'll find all the ways and
thank you for having me.
Really great to be here.
Aaron Pete (24:17):
Thank you so much for being willing to share your
time and so many insights.
Have a great day.
Niki Sharma (24:21):
Take care, thanks, bye.
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