July 18, 2025 • 50 mins
What does it take to transform personal tragedy into meaningful policy change? Eleanor McMahon's story provides a masterclass in effective advocacy that transcends political divisions while saving lives on our roads.
After losing her husband Greg — an Ontario Provincial Police officer — to a careless driver in 2006, McMahon channeled her grief into founding the Share the Road Cycling Coalition. With her background working for two Prime Ministers and her extensive political connections, she embarked on a methodical journey to research international cycling advocacy models before creating an organization to fill the gaps she discovered in Ontario. The results have been life changing and life saving, and carry huge ramifications for cycling safety in BC.
Visit Share the Road Cycling Coalition HERE
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The Bike Sense podcast with Peter Ladner is produced by the BC Cycling Coalition – your voice for safer and more accessible cycling and active transportation in British Columbia.
Got feedback or ideas for future episodes? Please drop us an email at admin@bccycling.ca.
Membership in the BCCC is now FREE! The future of this podcast depends on people like you becoming members at BCCycling.ca.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Bike Sense , the BC Cycling Coalition's
podcast, where we talk about allthings related to active
transportation advocacy in BC.
I'm your host, peter Ladner,chair of the Board of the BC
Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
Today we're moving out of BC onthis podcast for the first time
(00:37):
to welcome Eleanor McMahon, apowerhouse lobbyist for safer
cycling in Ontario, canada andindeed the world.
She's a former press secretaryto Jean Chrétien, she's a former
Ontario Minister of Tourism,culture and Sport, she's a
(00:59):
former CEO of the TransCanadaTrail and today she is the chair
of the board of an organizationshe founded which interests us
the most, which is the Share theRoad Cycling Coalition in
Ontario.
Welcome, eleanor.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Hi, peter, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Perhaps you could just share with our listeners
the reasons why you have foundyourself to be a cycling
advocate in the first place.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I've ridden my bike most of my life and I grew up
the youngest of seven childrenin a family in Windsor, Ontario,
and back then, certainly inthose days, we walked everywhere
, took the bus, rode our bikeseverywhere, and bikes were
freedom, just like today.
And my parents certainly onlyhad one car so I wasn't getting
(01:42):
a ride anywhere.
So, hoof it, take the bus, geta ride with someone or, gosh,
take your bike were our choicesof transportation.
We were multimodal back then,just like most people are today.
So, as someone who loved toride her bike and and you know,
it was a bit of a lifelongpassion and someone who did
triathlons later in life, thesad part of this story is that
(02:07):
my late husband, with whom Iused to enjoy riding a lot we
lived in a part of Ontariobecause he was an Ontario
provincial police officer thatwas fairly remote and very rural
and so we could go on athree-hour and not see a car, Uh
and um.
When he got transferred to thegreater Toronto area in
(02:28):
Burlington, where I live now, um, it was much more congested,
obviously much higher dense,densely populated.
We'd both lived in the Torontoarea previously.
So in fact, Greg and I met whenhe when he was, uh, uh, on on
duty in the Toronto area, and sowe, we were ready for that.
But, honestly, uh, cycling inin a much more densely populated
(02:49):
, higher traffic volume area wassomething that it took some
getting used to.
And, uh, Greg was often sayingto me you know, make sure you're
safe.
Um, we, when we went on ridestogether, even though he was
much more powerful than me, hewould ride behind me to make
sure that I was okay.
So, obviously, being a policeofficer, he had a lot of
concerns about safety andwanting to make sure that we
(03:10):
were both safe.
And sadly, that didn't help himbecause on June, the 6th 2006,
he went out for a training rideon his bike.
We were training for atriathlon that we'd entered,
which is something we love to do, just not seriously.
We weren't Olympic athletes oranything, but it was something
(03:32):
we loved staying fit andswimming and running and cycling
.
And Greg had just bought a newbike.
It was the month of June, as Imentioned, He'd just got his tax
return refund from thegovernment and went out and
bought a bike.
He was ready to get a new oneand very excited, so he took
that money that was burning ahole in his pocket and off he
(03:53):
went to this great store andbought a bike and the last words
I said were I love you and I'lltalk to you later.
And he was hit by a carelessdriver just north of our home
here in Burlington while on histraining ride and he died in
hospital later that night.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I'm so sorry to hear, Eleanor.
I know that triggered you tostart the Share the Road Cycling
Coalition.
What is the Share the RoadCycling Coalition?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
If I may, it is a good question because after Greg
was killed, I I decided that Ium as I um grieved for him, um,
and I do come from a very largefamily of seven kids and um
fairly wide network, and so manypeople said you know, how can
we help?
And I got lots of calls frompoliticians because, as you
(04:44):
pointed out, in my early careerI worked for two prime ministers
and so I had a pretty vastpolitical network.
And the premier of Ontariocalled me I knew him, I still
know him, dalton McGinty andasked what could he do.
And I said I need you to stayin touch with me because I don't
know what it is, but we'regoing to do something because
Greg's death was so tragic andpreventable and silly really.
(05:07):
So all of it's so silly andpreventable and you know, this
was someone who I never thoughtwould die, would have his life
taken doing something he loved.
He was in a very riskyprofession for which he was
highly trained and I neverworried about him.
Risky profession for which hewas highly trained and I never
(05:28):
worried about him.
But somehow there he wasenjoying his training ride and
overtaken carelessly by amotorist who had several
convictions for driving undersuspension.
We'll get to that later.
But as I began to cope withGreg's death, I started you know
I mentioned I got several phonecalls from people who wanted to
help.
But I also started to reallythink what could we do?
(05:48):
And started to do some research, peter, about what existed, and
then I realized there reallywasn't any cycling advocacy
organization in Ontario that didthe kind of work that I thought
needed doing.
But before I did anything Ineeded to do more research.
So I traveled internationally.
I spent some time in the UnitedStates.
I started looking atjurisdictions that had the kind
(06:10):
of legislative constructs thatwe desperately needed in Ontario
and really started to learn alot.
Went to Europe my city,burlington, is twinned with
Appledorn in Holland.
We all know that theNetherlands is really so
advanced in terms of cycling,and so I started spending time
in Europe and developed anetwork of colleagues at the
European Cyclist Federation inthe UK and mainland Europe
(06:34):
France, germany, italy,netherlands and really started
talking to as many people as Icould about how do you do things
where you live and started tolearn about all of these
programs.
And then I spent some time herein Ontario as well and talked
to Canadians.
I did travel to BC, met withfolks at the BC Cycling
Coalition and had a chat withthem and, of course, velo Quebec
(06:56):
our dear friends in Quebec andstarted to really talk to people
here in Ontario.
And the reason I did that, peter, was because I wanted to make
sure that if we startedsomething, we were really doing
it as a result of what wasneeded and filling gaps, and it
was more research.
So I was invited to give talksand I would go to talk to city
(07:20):
council and do deputations.
I would speak to cyclingadvocates and I traveled around
Ontario and I learned about whatwe had at the time and really
what we didn't.
And so I asked people if webuild this, will you come?
Will you support it financially?
Will you?
Because, on a practical level,as you know, non-for-profits
need funding and what kind oforganization should it be and
(07:41):
what do you think we should beaddressing as a priority?
And then was getting veryencouraged by what I saw, which
was a huge hole.
As someone who'd spent most ofher life either in political
work or in non-for-profitadvocacy work, I realized that a
lot of what was needed at thecommunity level were savvy
(08:04):
advocates.
A lot of the people that werein communities were lovely and
very passionate, but didn't knowwhat I knew.
Didn't know how to influencebetter outcomes, how to work
with politicians or how to buildcommunity, and so that was one
of the big areas of focus thatwe had and we still have, which
is building a better advocacycommunity and equipping
(08:24):
advocates with the tools to besuccessful.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Can you give me an example of how that would work,
and let's pick one communitythat needed a lift.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, sure, I'm thinking of Halliburton, which
is a rural community in theMuskoka area.
They'll kill me for saying thatbecause they're not Muskoka.
They're adjacent to Muskoka.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Our listeners won't know the difference.
It's okay.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
They had a really great group of advocates there.
I was invited by a woman who'dheard about me and wanted me to
give a talk, and she worked inpublic health there, and so I
went up and I this again.
They said would you come?
We have this evening open.
We'd love you to come.
So I came.
I spent the after the talk, wehad a social time and I talked
(09:10):
to everybody in the room.
Peter and I asked them what doyou do?
So what would you like to see?
And, just really good thing,I'm so outgoing.
I talked to as many people as Icould about.
So how do things work here?
Tell me, did you know that thisis happening elsewhere in the
province, which was anotherreally interesting opportunity
for us.
It was quite clear thatmunicipalities weren't aware
(09:31):
that there was progress in otherplaces and there were things
going on, and that was a bigdisconnect.
But really, at the advocacylevel, just understanding how
people were trying to influenceoutcomes and not being
successful and I could see themgetting.
They're hitting their headsagainst the wall and getting
frustrated, and human behaviordictates that when you get
frustrated, we're not at ourbest.
(09:52):
I can say that I'm not perfect.
I get frustrated all the time,and when I get frustrated, I get
crabby, and when I get crabby,I don't really show up as my
best self, and I don't mean tomake fun or make light of these
issues, because our safety onthe road is deadly serious.
And what I saw, though, were abunch of people who had been
(10:13):
frustrated over the years andnot able to make the change that
they wanted to see, and someeting with them really and
talking to them about how to beeffective led to some more
formalization a lobby day at ourlegislature and all party
cycling caucus, which we cantalk about, an advocacy toolkit
that we developed online forpeople to share to really help
(10:33):
them to be more effective, andsome webinars on training
advocates to really teach themabout.
You know, as I often say, youknow, I remember this one woman
who was lovely, and her partnerjoined her, and the two of them
were quite, quite frustrated,and he said to me oh, I'm just
so mad, you know, I can't, wecan't get anywhere, it's so
frustrating.
I said, well, tell me, whathave you done?
(10:55):
Whoa, we, we went to this thingand we did, and they were
really not setting themselves upfor success.
So I said.
You know, as human beings it'snormally an okay to get
frustrated, but you know youdon't like it when people punch
you in the nose and poke you inthe eyes.
So politicians don't like thateither.
And your job is to make friendswith as many people as you can
and bring as many people alongas you can, because there's a
(11:16):
lot of joy in cycling.
So your joy you're, you're.
You are the ambassador of joy.
So your job is to get people onside as quickly and as often as
possible, and it's going totake a while, but trust me, it's
worth it.
I did the same thing with afellow in Sault Ste Marie who,
years later, after the mayor,said to me oh, we can't deal
with that fellow, he's so angryall the time.
And I met the mayor at theAssociation of Municipalities of
(11:40):
Ontario meeting and he said wecan't.
His name is Andre.
He won't mind me talking aboutthis lovely guy.
He came up to me years laterand said you know what?
Your advice to me was a gamechanger.
I said really?
He said yeah, you just told meto be fair and friendly and be
nice to people and show up andhave all my facts and try to
make friends.
And boy, did it ever change him?
(12:01):
He said cause I'm a Francophoneand I'm feisty and I'm an
emotional person.
And I got mad and I said allthose things are okay, but save
those for your friends andfamily or your pals over a beer.
When you're in public andyou're talking about cycling,
don't forget that you'recompeting against a lot of
really professionally, highlytrained lobbyists and other
people who want exactly what youwant, and so the best thing
(12:22):
that you can do is be fair andfriendly and say hello and can
we talk and then just carry onas you would in any professional
setting.
So those are some examples ofsome of the work that we did.
And then again, as I said, webegan to realize that this was a
big area of business for us andwe began to raise funding to do
these on a project basis and westarted training advocates en
masse.
(12:42):
And whenever I went to amunicipality, I would meet with
the council and meet with thecouncillors, and most
municipalities in Ontario anywayhave a bicycle advisory
committee of some sort, and Iwas on the bicycle advisory
committee in my own communitybecause I wanted to see how it
worked, and I would meet with asmany people as possible.
So when I went to a city Iwould give a talk usually, and
(13:05):
then spend the rest of my timetalking to decision makers,
influencers.
I'd shop, I'd go to the bikeshop and talk to people there
and really start to spread theword organically about our
organization.
And again, as many times as wecould, ask people their opinion
how are we doing?
What should we be doing thatwe're not doing.
And then, peter, once I spentsome time continuing to talk to
(13:34):
people, we realized that therewas room for an organization,
and so we incorporated and, as anon-for-profit organization,
appointed a board of directorsand then started grant writing
and hiring staff and building agood strategic plan, which each
non-for-profit should do.
Everybody knows that.
And so we got some funding todo a really robust strategic
plan and talked to as manypeople as we could again about
(13:57):
where they wanted to see us infive years and then got to work
at the Ontario Legislature,meeting with politicians and
with bureaucrats and talking tothem about what we needed to see
.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
So run me through some of your.
You've had some remarkablesuccesses.
Can you just give us a quickthumbnail of some of the things
that you implemented throughthis organization?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
So the first piece of legislation that we passed was
in Greg's memory.
I went to the commissioner ofthe OPP, the Ontario Provincial
Police, and I asked him if hewould help me to lobby for a
change in the Highway TrafficAct to deal with people the
fellow that killed my husband.
(14:40):
So he had five convictions fordriving under suspension, four
convictions for driving withouta license, $15,000 in unpaid
fines and two months after hekilled my husband, he hit
someone else and he was acommercial driver.
Months after he killed myhusband, he hit someone else and
he was a commercial driver.
So you can imagine, especiallyas the spouse of a police
(15:00):
officer.
Cops are notorious for cominghome from shift and saying, oh
my gosh, and telling you how wasyour day, how was your day,
that's what, that's what.
That's what spouses do.
And, um, I would hear thefrustration in Greg's voice.
He was a kind and lovely man,but he would get frustrated at
his own inability to deal withthe lack of safety that he saw
on the road.
And that spirit and thatdedication and that
(15:23):
determination was something thatI carried with me, and so when
I started doing research onlegislation in other provinces,
I realized that Alberta andSaskatchewan had legislation
that dealt with people whohabitually drive under
suspension, and people whohabitually drive under
suspension have a propensity totake risks, and so I was fairly
(15:48):
certain that those are the typeof people that probably cyclists
need to be concerned about.
Those are the type of peoplethat probably cyclists need to
be concerned about.
And so, again, I went to thecommissioner and I laid out a
business case for changing thelegislation, after doing all my
research, and I said we have thebusiest roads in the country.
We don't have this legislation.
Alberta and Saskatchewan haveit.
We need to have it.
Here's what I'd like to do.
(16:09):
Would you help me?
And he said, yes, I willabsolutely help you.
And I said, okay, I willabsolutely help you.
And I said, okay, I'll do thepolitics and the media, you do
the public service.
And he said, okay, you're on.
And so, less than a year later,we had Greg's law, which
heightened the penalties forpeople who drive habitually
(16:30):
under suspension, three quartersof whom are driving still,
which is really not great,because if you get hit by
someone who's under suspension,they don of whom are driving
still, which is really not great, because if you get hit by
someone who's under suspension,they don't have insurance.
Now, it may be different whereyou are because you have a
different regime of insurance,but in Ontario, if you're under
suspension, you're not insured,and if you hit someone, that
(16:50):
just adds to the tragedy.
So that's the first law that wedid.
So Greg's law was passed and itwent into effect in 2009.
And that was our first piece oflegislation, so that that this,
this, led to bigger and betterthings, but that was the first
thing we did.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
We left off.
You were talking about Greg'slaw and what it would do.
What are some of the othersuccesses that Share the Road
Cycling Coalition has had?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
In 2009, we started the Ontario Bike Summit, and
this was because we realizedthat municipalities weren't
sharing best practices aboutcycling and there was no forum
to do that or mechanism to do it, so we decided to create one.
We also wanted a forum forpolitical conversations and
advocacy and to allow advocatesthe opportunity to learn from
(17:45):
each other and municipalities tolearn from each other and to
invite municipal, federal sorry,provincial ministers to come
and join us and to hear what wasgoing on, because nothing was
happening provincially.
And in parallel, we werelobbying at Queen's Park and
starting to make traction withsome of the public policy work
that we needed.
But the Ontario Bike Summit wasimportant for one other reason
(18:09):
as I had started to work andlobby at the provincial level, I
realized that there was nocycling strategy in Ontario and
I knew that there was no waythat the officials were going to
do that.
And, to be fair, when Bob Raywas briefly premier in Ontario,
there was a cycling strategy,but that had been 20 years prior
and there had been nothing donesince.
And I knew that if we weregoing to get that done, we had
(18:31):
to do it ourselves.
And I knew that if we weregoing to get that done.
We had to do it ourselves.
So I raised some money and Ihired a pollster and we started
doing extensive research and wereached out to as many people
who would talk to us lawenforcement municipalities we
went to AMO, they gave us theirlist and so we did a big survey.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
What is AMO?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
The Association of Municipalities of Ontario.
I think you probably have asimilar construct, Peter, having
been a municipal politicianyourself.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
UBC, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
And so we went to AMO and we said would you allow us
to do a survey of your members?
And they said yes.
So we took all that survey dataand we wrote a fairly extensive
report when Ontario Bikes,ontario Benefits.
And that public policy document, which called for extensive
changes across an array ofministries in the Ontario
(19:20):
government, laid the groundworkfor the first Ontario cycling
strategy in Ontario four yearslater.
So after we wrote that reportwhich I wrote in BC, by the way,
during the Vancouver Olympicsin 2010, I stayed with my friend
in Vancouver and I wrote thatreport, I took all the research
and data and I pulled ittogether.
And then I walked into theoffice of the Minister of
(19:41):
Transportation who was later thePremier, kathleen Wynne, and I
said here is a comprehensivelook at cycling from people that
you care about Police, lawenforcement, municipalities,
public health, cycling advocatesand citizens across Ontario.
Here's what they want theirOntario government to do, and
you're not doing it and you needto do it.
And here it is, here it is, youdon't have to do another thing.
(20:03):
And she said right.
I came down from that meetingand on my way down, the Deputy
Minister of Transportation wasin the elevator by happenstance,
and he said so I hear we'redoing an Ontario cycling
strategy.
I said, well, good news travelsfast.
The minister had already, inthe time that it took me to get
to the elevator, actioned intothe deputy that we were going to
(20:26):
be embracing an opportunity todo a cycling strategy in Ontario
, with any inherent tourismbenefits, by the way.
So we didn't forget about theeconomic economic side of
cycling which, as you know,peter, is so important.
That was another success.
We laid the groundwork for acycling strategy and at the
ontario bike summit weamalgamated everyone and said
we're going to do this, thisstrategy, and we want your help.
(20:47):
And then, a number of monthslater, less than a year, we did
a press conference, conferencein Ontario and Toronto and we
released the results and weshowed everyone this is what
Ontario needs and this is whatthey don't have.
And the government sent an MPPto comment favorably on the with
(21:07):
the media there, glenn Murray,who was later my colleague in
cabinet, to comment verypositively.
He was Toronto Centre, so thelargest number of cyclists in
the country, aside fromVancouver and Montreal, live in
Toronto and so Glenn, being acyclist himself, said, yeah, I'm
in.
So that started some reallygreat momentum provincially for
(21:27):
us.
And then, three years later, wehad the first Ontario Cycling
Strategy.
But there's a story there too.
But I'm going to let you ask meanother question.
So that was another early win.
That was another early win.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Could you briefly describe the impact of the
cycling strategy?
What difference did it makehaving that strategy versus not
having it?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Game-changing.
I mean it started to reallydemonstrate the opportunities
inherent in the provincialgovernment playing a much
greater role.
It also showed them that peoplethat they cared about cared
about it.
Not just cycling, not justcyclists, as if we didn't matter
.
We do.
But I went to people that theylistened to municipal leaders,
(22:09):
law enforcement, public health,law enforcement, public health.
When you had those peoplesaying it and you start to build
civic society around yourargument, you can't you know,
politicians can't say no to that.
So we put together a reportthat was based on feedback and
interventions from those peoplethat government cared about.
And that's how we got theirattention and they started
(22:31):
working right away to build somecapacity within the army.
Because I was, I was meetingwith mto, I was meeting with the
ministry of transportation, Iwas getting nowhere, um, and I
actually had and and they're notbad people, they just they just
needed someone to nudge themalong, peter, and that's what we
did well, you're painting apicture that there's all the
(22:53):
support for cycling from themunicipalities, the health
authorities, and we all knowthat and have heard that, but
and imagine that sometimes inour mind to be more than it is.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And yet today in ontario, um, that doesn't seem
to be calling the shots in fromthe provincial government.
They seem to have turned oncyclists.
How are you responding to thatand how is that affecting these
initiatives?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
When we launched the first Ontario Cycling Strategy
in 2013 and then I was invitedto join the government in 2014,.
Our work really escalated fromthere, because then I got into
cabinet shortly after that andthe Premier invited me to do
much more change, which we did.
We started to operationalizethe ontario cycling strategy and
really, really drive it homeand and address the things that
were called for, and we heldourselves to account.
(23:41):
Based on that that feedbackthat we'd have from citizens,
people said this is what we wantyou to do, and we started doing
it and which were?
Speaker 1 (23:47):
what were those?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
things, um, invest in infrastructure, pass more
changes to the highway trafficact, including a one meter safe
passing law, which ont.
Ontario was the second provincein Canada to do and really
start to hone in on the economicimpacts of cycling tourism and
embrace that which we did andwhich, as when I was tourism
minister, I did the firstOntario cycling tourism strategy
in the history of the province,and the Ontario cycling route,
(24:11):
which is now almost finished.
The province and the Ontariocycling route, which is now
almost finished.
So so, yes, the currentgovernment has taken a step back
.
However, governments don't lastforever.
I think they're making a hugemistake.
They know that.
But we are working quietly andbehind the scenes to mobilize,
(24:32):
to make our voices heard in a inin the kind of behind the
scenes, to mobilize, to make ourvoices heard in the kind of
behind the scenes way.
We are an organization thatworks proactively and
productively with government andwe made sure, peter, that
cycling remains nonpartisan.
If we take a partisan approach,then we're no better than the
people we point fingers at andsay don't make cycling partisan.
(24:54):
People's lives should never bea political argument.
Don't politicize cycling foryour own benefit.
And so we shouldn't either.
And so we work across partylines with everybody in the
legislature and, yes, there aremembers of the government caucus
who have quietly said to me Idon't support what the premier
is doing.
And so we have friends on allsides of the legislature and
(25:15):
we're mobilizing and the mayors.
We just had our Ontario BikeSummit.
A panel of mayors saidresoundingly that the best thing
that the government can do forus is more cycling
infrastructure funding.
So we're clear on what ourlobbying strategy is, because
our stakeholders and partnershave told us what it needs to be
.
But the fact is that we have amajority government in Ontario
right now.
We have a premier who has adecidedly 1950s view of the
(25:41):
municipalities and he's fightingold battles when he was a
councillor at the City ofToronto when his brother was
mayor and he's also got a very,I suspect, peter.
He politicizes things becausethat's who he is and he's got a
very antiquated sense of whocyclists are and what they are.
He's decided that cyclists areBirkenstock-wearing,
(26:02):
cappuccino-sipping liberals andNDPers and those people don't
vote for him anyway.
So it's our job to mobilizecivil society and say wait a
second, that's not right.
And our public polling, peterwhich we do because polling
influences outcomes tell us that87% of Ontarians are cyclists
and motorists at the same time.
So it's a false paradigm toenter into this you versus me
(26:25):
thing because it doesn't exist.
So we call BS on that everychance we get, peter, because
it's simply not the case thatit's you versus me.
And people who create thatfalse paradigm and that
construct aren't interested insolving problems.
Well, it's the government's jobto solve problems.
That's why they're there.
And so you know, I thinkthere's some.
(26:47):
We're making some some, youknow, behind the scenes headway
and we're continuing to keepcycling alive in a very positive
way, because governments don'tlast forever.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
What is the role of the all party cycling caucus
that you have in Ontario?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
It's a great question .
So it is a common ground forumis a place where people from all
sides of the legislature it'sco-chaired, by the way, by Mike
Schreiner, who's the leader ofthe Green Party in Ontario, and
Mary Margaret McMahon norelation a Liberal MPP in
Toronto and who's a cyclist, andboth of them are and we have
(27:25):
chosen an NDP member, catherineMcKinney, who's also a member of
our caucus, and we are workingvery hard to get someone from
the government caucus Again.
We know that we have peoplewithin caucus that are
sympathetic, and so it's like Isay about everything Peter, the
train's leaving the station.
If you're not on it, you canalways join us later on.
(27:45):
It's okay.
You know it's okay when you seeus having fun without you, then
you can join, because we'remeeting over the summer with the
members of the caucus and we'redevising our legislative
strategy for the fall.
So we've got some privatemembers bills that we're'm
(28:28):
bringing that back to Ontariobecause we need to have a
nonpartisan forum to really havea fact-based, evidence-based
conversation that'snon-political, and our
conversations are all aboutfinding common ground, peter and
fact-based, by the way, andevidence-based, not political.
There's no room for politics.
It gets checked at the door.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Okay, I have a question for you about evidence.
You brought in a one meter safepassing distance.
We now have that in BC onemeter when you're traveling
under 50K, and 1.5 meters, whichpeople are always surprised
when I tell them that's thewidth of a queen-size mattress.
Have you got any evidence thatthat has made a difference and
(29:09):
how are you getting thatenforced?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Evidence?
I don't know, I'd have to askmy friends in law enforcement
about that.
Second, as officers in placeslike Toronto will tell you, it's
just helpful to have the chargeon the books, and if someone is
careless or is aggressivetowards a cyclist, then the
charge is there for them toleverage.
Right If it wasn't there.
I mean if it wasn't there.
(29:35):
And it's also a great forum forawareness.
So you mentioned the mattressthing.
We just had the commissioner ofthe OPP.
We just launched an awarenesscampaign featuring the
commissioner of the OPP, who's ahuge cyclist, and I called him
and said would you help us dothis?
(29:56):
And he said yes, and so the onemeter safe passing law is front
and center.
The campaign is about the onemeter law and it's about
reminding motorists that theyneed to give cyclists space, and
sharing the road is not just afun idea In Ontario, it's the
law, and so we just launchedthat a month ago fantastic.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
something else that your organization does that
fascinates me and we didactually a whole podcast about
this, but I'd love your updateon it is bike friendly
communities, and I know thatyour summit in part is a way to
announce the latest winners andwho's gold, silver and and
whatever and can you tell us howthat works and how effective
that's been?
(30:35):
And also I want to know what itwould take for us to get it
here in BC.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
It's a fairly resource-heavy and intensive
research-heavy exercise.
We brought the Bike FriendlyProgram from the US in 2010.
We helped to launch it inQuebec with fellow Quebec.
A number of years later, welaunched it at again the AMO
conference, the Association ofMunicipalities of Ontario.
I invited my friend who'd beenthe mayor of Madison, wisconsin,
(31:07):
dave Cheslevich.
I invited a mayor to speak tomayors.
So don't listen to me.
Here's a guy who said stood inthe room and said I was elected
three times on a cycling agenda.
They were like whatPoliticians' ears perked up?
How did that happen?
Well, here's what I did andthis is how he did it.
And like the lineup to talk tohim was out the door because
(31:31):
politicians were makingassumptions.
No one wants cycling.
87% of people in this provinceare multimodal.
Don't let the false argumentsand false paradigms rule your
world.
It's bunk.
It's not true.
Don't create a construct toserve your political ends.
So the bike-friendly program hasbeen a game changer for us, the
(31:54):
biggest thing I think it doeswell, there are three things it
does.
Number one it measures progressand honors municipalities in a
really positive way.
We need more positive incycling, peter.
I'm really keen on this.
We just need more opportunityto embrace.
Peter.
I'm really keen on this.
We just need more opportunityto embrace progress.
Better is always possible.
The standard of perfection thatwe set ourselves sometimes and
I've seen advocates do this alot and it kind of makes my hair
(32:16):
stand on end Don't let perfectbe the enemy of the good.
When there's progress, saluteit every single time, because
progress begets progress.
If people are doing things well, tell them thank you.
It's just human behavior.
And what the Bike FriendlyProgram does is it really helps
municipalities have a differentand very positive conversation
about cycling versus.
Oh my gosh, we really suck,we're terrible.
(32:39):
Well, actually, you're not.
You're doing a lot of reallygood things.
So it works on the basis of anapplication.
It's very extensive, um, and wewe help municipalities through
it.
We have a panel of expertjudges who are planners,
engineers, city builders,urbanists.
I'm on the panel.
I'm not sure how I fall intothat.
(32:59):
I'm not an engineer or planner,um, I just care about this
stuff and we adjudicate.
There's also a section of theapplication excuse me that is
highly weighted towardsmunicipal feedback.
So it's a really great way formunicipalities to hear from
their citizens about how they'reactually doing, and it's not
(33:21):
for us, as judges, to come inand say we're having this
conversation with the city ofWindsor right now, by the way,
because we just had the summitthere and always an outcome of
our summit is a revisiting oftheir bicycle-friendly community
designation, and there's adesire to do that.
Cities are hungry for how to bebetter, how to do it differently
, how other municipalities aredoing it, and a platform that
(33:43):
allows them to share thatinformation is exactly what the
bike friendly program does, andit really does reward success,
and if you're not quite there,it says, okay, you're doing
great, but really, if you wantto progress, here are five
things that you should doimmediately.
Here are five that maybe youwant to address in the medium
term and in the longer.
(34:04):
You have to demonstrateprogress towards implementation
of a cycling network and abicycle master plan, for example
, an AT master plan that's avibrant part of your
transportation master plan.
This is how it works in Ontarioanyway.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
How do you deal with communities that are very small
and maybe don't have even atraffic planner or
transportation planner?
Because I noticed that inqualifying for this, you have to
get a group of people togetherin your municipality, you have
to include the politicians andthe engineers and so on, and if
they're very thinly resourced,how do they deal with it?
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I've actually never had a problem with that.
I mean, even in smallcommunities you can still manage
to pull together one or twostaff from the city Sometimes
it's the CAO, sometimes it'sthat you can pull in public
health, because in Ontarioanyway, public health is a
regional responsibility.
In Ontario anyway, publichealth is a regional
responsibility and they have,especially in large catchment
(35:07):
areas, you know, public healthstaff and adjoining
municipalities, even if youdon't have one in your
municipality.
So it's, it's really you need achampion in this in the
community.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Is that a requirement that public health has to be
involved?
Speaker 2 (35:18):
No, but it's helpful.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
But they're useful allies, of course.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
It's really useful allies and, again, they are the
evidence-based people who say,well, we do lots of campaigns
for anti-obesity and quitsmoking and better heart and all
these things, and cycling isreally connected to all those
things and, by the way, when youdo it, you should really be
safe.
So, by the way, get going onimplementing better
infrastructure and, oh, by theway, get the tourism people
involved too, because we knowthat cycling tourism is hugely
(35:44):
beneficial to communities andthere's lots of data we've done
and others have done that looksat measuring the impact of
cycling from a tourismperspective.
So it's really about findingallies where you can and even
small municipalities can pulltogether.
You know folks who areinterested and the other thing
(36:05):
is that we match them up withother municipalities who've been
successful.
As I mentioned Windsor, we'regoing to do a workshop in the
fall for the Go for Silverworkshop in Windsor.
That will bring together all theusual suspects city staff,
advocates, politicians againpublic health all the law
(36:25):
enforcement, city staff,advocates, politicians again
public health all the lawenforcement everybody into a
room to have a conversationabout where do we see Windsor in
five years.
And then we're bringing intothat forum probably the city of
Ottawa or one of our goldbicycle friendly communities to
really give them a picture,because I think most people are
visual, peter, and if you cantell them where they want to get
(36:46):
to and then give them some ideaon what the route looks like
and how to get there, I thinkthere's a lot of gratitude for
that, because everybody wants tobe in a constant improvement
mode.
Most people do, and if you tellthem, you know, in five years,
this is where, this is where youwant to be, maybe and we can
help you by introducing you tomunicipalities who are there
(37:06):
already and they can tell youwhat's possible and how to do it
.
Can I give you another examplethat's not bike-friendly related
?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
When I was in government, I learned that New
Brunswick was trying to pass aone-meter safe passing law
because they'd had the death ofa high profile cyclist who was a
professional cyclist, and shedied, sadly, in the same way
that Greg did.
Someone pulled up to pass herand on a one lane road, and
that's what happened with Greg.
And so this is what you can dowhen you're in cabinet.
(37:40):
So I found out who the ministerwas.
I looked at his social mediafeed and I saw that he was
advocating to get this done.
So I arranged a call with himand he said oh, eleanor, the
premier's really dragging hisfeet.
He doesn't want to do it.
And I said why?
Ontario's got it?
We have the biggest roads, thebusiest roads in the country.
If we can do it, you can do it.
And then I gave him a bunch ofinformation.
(38:01):
Then I said CAA, by the way,one of our biggest allies on
everything we do, but certainlyon road safety, things like this
, and he's like CAA.
I never even thought of themand I said boom, you should
reach out to them.
So voila, caa got involved inAtlanta, canada, they passed the
law.
And the reason I share thatstory, peter, is once you can
show that somebody else who'sdone it.
(38:21):
So he said I talked to himafter.
He said I told the premier whatyou said and I said, oh good,
goodness me, I hope that's okay,but you know, pointing out to
him that the place with thebusiest roads in the country was
able to do it.
You just have to have that.
Yes, we can.
Attitude Peter.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
What's your opinion of automated safety enforcement
red light cameras, speed camerasand so on?
They would be, as I see it,immensely effective, but there's
obviously a political issuethere.
Have you ever taken that one on?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
I've never taken that one on.
I know it's being debated in intoronto right now um people are
going around and destroying.
There's a message it's reallyquite distressing.
Um, yeah, uh-huh.
Um.
Well, no one likes to be caught, um, and punished.
Um, uh.
I remember when, uh, I wastalking to the commissioner of
(39:22):
the OPP about doing Greg's lawand I said why is it that
penalties?
Money works.
What is it that changespeople's behavior?
Because, peter, when you docycling work like we do, it's
about behavior change.
Getting people to thinkdifferently about cities,
getting people to plandifferently, put in
(39:42):
infrastructure, thinking abouttheir city to plan differently,
put in infrastructure, thinkingabout their city modal mix
differently and changingpeople's behavior in the context
of law enforcement means shortchart penalties sometimes that
say to people you broke the lawand now you're going to pay the
consequences for that because welive in a lawful society.
So I don't personally have anissue with speed enforcement
(40:06):
that reminds people about howthey need to drive or should
drive.
Anything that reminds people tostay safe on the road is, I
think, a really good idea.
I don't know, I don't know ifthat answers your question.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
It's one of those things where I think there may
be a perception that the publicis against it, and you mentioned
some of those cameras gotsmashed.
I'm reminded of the recentreferendum I believe it was in
Paris about whether they shouldallow e-scooters, and it was
defeated.
So they don't have e-scooters,but 5% of the people voted, and
(40:37):
just one angry person smashing acamera may give the impression
that everybody's against this,but you do the polling and your
polling data would probably show.
As ours shows, for example, ona 30-kilometer speed limit in
residential areas, 75% of thepeople across the province think
that's a great idea in theirneighborhood, but the
(40:57):
politicians won't touch it.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
We did it when we were in government.
We did it.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
As a default across the province.
And was there pushback?
It's allowed in BC, but the itas a default across the province
.
And was there pushback?
It's allowed in BC, but themunicipalities have to each take
it on.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
And we're advocating it should just be blanket across
the province.
Yeah, that one's so sensible tome.
I remember Jeanette Sadek-Khan,the former commissioner of
transportation in the city ofNew York under Bloomberg, and
she now works for Bloomberg at acity's Institute.
But, um, she oversaw, uh, underhis direction, the the greatest
transformation in New York cityfrom a cycling point point of
(41:34):
view.
Um, probably ever.
Um, really, uh, if, if you goto New York and I do have been a
little while I'm not going tothe States much these days, but
one of my best friends works atthe United Nations in New York,
so I'm and I cycle when I'mthere and I'm quite safe and
comfortable.
It's remarkable what she didclosed down Times Square to
vehicles.
Yeah, there's always going tobe pushback.
(41:55):
Remember before I said you knowpeople don't like change.
People don't like change, peter, you know this right.
And we're asking people tochange and we're asking them to
share the road, and we're askingthem to be kind and we're
asking them to give up space,and we're asking them to give in
to people's instinct to improvethe planet, their personal
health, mitigate congestion andlower their own personal costs,
(42:18):
which is everything that cyclingdoes.
And why is any of that bad?
Back to Jeanette, what she toldme about how they succeeded in
New York was, she said I justmade it about congestion and
safety.
So to your point about howmunicipalities push back, if you
start to talk about children incommunity safety zones, which
is what we did, who can beagainst saving children's lives?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
yeah, exactly who.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Who can be against that?
Right it just and, and you knowwhen, when you're in Europe, in
the UK, where I spent some timethere after this global cycling
conference in Gdansk recently,just last week I came home on
Sunday and a bunch ofneighborhoods that I was in I
spent some time with friendscycling.
I did a bike bus with a groupof women that I met in Gdansk,
(43:04):
in Glasgow, and they had thesesigns all over the neighborhood.
20 is plenty.
20 is plenty.
Miles an hour, by the way,because they do miles in the UK,
but it was interesting 20 isplenty.
I thought that's so perfect,right?
I mean, why do we need to goquickly, peter?
Why can't we slow down in ourneighborhoods and look after
(43:27):
each other and our neighbors andour friends?
Slow down.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Well, politicians will frequently think of the
frustrated motorists justwanting to get somewhere faster.
But when you ask the questionfrom the point of view of your
neighborhood, do you think carsshould go slower in your
neighborhood?
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Overwhelmingly people say yes, Eleanor, we got to
wrap this up, but before we go,you were in Gdansk.
You talked to the EuropeanCyclist Federation, was that it?
Yeah, so the ECF has a globalcycling conference.
It was in Vancouver, by the way, in 2010.
It's been in Canada twice.
1992 could have been 2012.
Sorry, peter, I'm old now Iforget stuff, but they have the
(44:03):
Velocity Cycling Conferenceevery year and it brings it's a
global conference.
About 2000 people attend.
Uh, I've been going since 2009.
Uh, I've been most years.
When I was elected I didn't go,but um, I, uh, and, and, and it
and.
It brings together cyclingadvocates, professionals, city
(44:23):
leaders, european.
It's a very gravitas conferenceand I was asked to speak on a
panel with colleagues from Paris, brussels, poland, the United
States about bike clash.
So a bit of what we're talkingabout now how there is pushback
against, pushback against uh,cycling, um, and how we deal
(44:48):
with that and how we manage that.
So that was the conversation,uh, that we had.
So it was.
It was interesting and greatfor me to see longtime friends
that I only see once a year,once every couple of years, my
Dutch and Danish friends, forexample.
So great, great to be in thatvenue and lots of things that
I've learned.
It's always really inspiring tobe there, peter.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Well, speaking of conferences, the BC Cycling
Coalition and the PlanningInstitute of BC are doing a
regional cycling conference inKimberley in September 10th to
the 12th and I keep throwingthat out there in these podcasts
to encourage people to attend,and I'll talk to you later about
that, because maybe we can getyou there.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Yeah, if you want me to come, maybe I'll look at my
calendar and see what I can do.
I love coming to BC.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
But I wanted to ask you one more thing about
conflict that I'm now hearingabout between, and I'm thinking
about Europe and all thedifferent modes of travel, the
e-scooters and the faster,bigger, better e-bikes.
It's now the line betweennon-motorized and motorized
transportation starting to getvery blurry.
And there's we're hearingpushback again.
(45:55):
I don't know if it's justpeople who are finding another
reason to be angry at cyclistsor actual.
I think it's more as much fromlegitimate cyclists, for, for
example, a friend of mine Iheard who got knocked off her
bike by passing e-bike going toofast.
What are your thoughts aboutcongestion in the bike lanes and
these new technologies?
Are they legitimate partners ordo we have to somehow find a
(46:19):
new place for them?
Speaker 2 (46:30):
new place for them.
I'm going to a session one-bike regulation in Ontario in
a couple of weeks that theprovincial government is putting
on.
I think, peter, it's a coupleof things.
I think this is fairlystraightforward and it feels
complicated because people don'tknow what to do, but we
regulate cars from a speed pointof view.
We don't let people just go anyspeed they want.
We have controlled zones and wecontrol people's speeds and,
(46:54):
you know, depending on wherethey are, I think it's probably
a good idea to, because peoplemake bad choices, peter, whether
they're behind the wheel, andsometimes you and I have seen
this, we've all seen it.
I've done so many mediainterviews and I've never
defended people who are carelessor unsafe, because we are human
(47:19):
beings first and cyclists andmotorists second, and that human
beingness means that we makesilly decisions sometimes, and
silly choices when they impactother people, then we have to
pay the price for that.
Sadly, however, there's lawsthat prevent and mitigate our
behavior.
So if there's an opportunity tolook at people's choices when
(47:44):
they're in the bike lane and iftheir behavior is causing those
places to be unsafe, then weshould have a conversation about
how we put limits on people'sspeed If they can't behave
responsibly.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Makes sense to me.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
We may have to do that.
We do it with cars, peter, and,as I said earlier, in Ontario
anyway, 87% of people aremotorists, and cyclists too, and
so I think this is just likeany other group of road user.
If people are not behaving well, then we have to say to them
you know this is a privilege,not a right, and you need to
(48:23):
govern yourself well and toensure that you do, to protect
you and the people around you,we're going to put limits on
your speed and then doenforcement, peter.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
Wow, it's so great hearing your story, and I
hesitate to say this, but Ithink that part of your story is
your strength as a person andyour connections and your energy
, and if there were one of youin every province in Canada,
we'd be well on our way.
But failing that, we'll see youas an example of what can be
(48:54):
done from a personal level.
And, of course, your strengthis in mobilizing other people to
do the work together andbringing all these people
together.
What a great story.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Well, thank you.
Happy to chat anytime.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original
podcast from the BC CyclingCoalition.
Bike Sense, an original podcastfrom the BC Cycling Coalition.
If you like the podcast, we'dbe grateful if you could leave
us a rating.
On whatever platform you use,you can also subscribe so you
don't miss future episodes.
(49:40):
If you have comments orsuggestions for future episodes,
email me at peterladner atbccyclingca.
You can help us amplify BCCycling Coalition's voice.
You
Welcome to Bike Sense , the BC Cycling Coalition's
podcast, where we talk about allthings related to active
transportation advocacy in BC.
I'm your host, peter Ladner,chair of the Board of the BC
Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
Today we're moving out of BC onthis podcast for the first time
(00:37):
to welcome Eleanor McMahon, apowerhouse lobbyist for safer
cycling in Ontario, canada andindeed the world.
She's a former press secretaryto Jean Chrétien, she's a former
Ontario Minister of Tourism,culture and Sport, she's a
(00:59):
former CEO of the TransCanadaTrail and today she is the chair
of the board of an organizationshe founded which interests us
the most, which is the Share theRoad Cycling Coalition in
Ontario.
Welcome, eleanor.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Hi, peter, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Perhaps you could just share with our listeners
the reasons why you have foundyourself to be a cycling
advocate in the first place.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I've ridden my bike most of my life and I grew up
the youngest of seven childrenin a family in Windsor, Ontario,
and back then, certainly inthose days, we walked everywhere
, took the bus, rode our bikeseverywhere, and bikes were
freedom, just like today.
And my parents certainly onlyhad one car so I wasn't getting
(01:42):
a ride anywhere.
So, hoof it, take the bus, geta ride with someone or, gosh,
take your bike were our choicesof transportation.
We were multimodal back then,just like most people are today.
So, as someone who loved toride her bike and and you know,
it was a bit of a lifelongpassion and someone who did
triathlons later in life, thesad part of this story is that
(02:07):
my late husband, with whom Iused to enjoy riding a lot we
lived in a part of Ontariobecause he was an Ontario
provincial police officer thatwas fairly remote and very rural
and so we could go on athree-hour and not see a car, Uh
and um.
When he got transferred to thegreater Toronto area in
(02:28):
Burlington, where I live now, um, it was much more congested,
obviously much higher dense,densely populated.
We'd both lived in the Torontoarea previously.
So in fact, Greg and I met whenhe when he was, uh, uh, on on
duty in the Toronto area, and sowe, we were ready for that.
But, honestly, uh, cycling inin a much more densely populated
(02:49):
, higher traffic volume area wassomething that it took some
getting used to.
And, uh, Greg was often sayingto me you know, make sure you're
safe.
Um, we, when we went on ridestogether, even though he was
much more powerful than me, hewould ride behind me to make
sure that I was okay.
So, obviously, being a policeofficer, he had a lot of
concerns about safety andwanting to make sure that we
(03:10):
were both safe.
And sadly, that didn't help himbecause on June, the 6th 2006,
he went out for a training rideon his bike.
We were training for atriathlon that we'd entered,
which is something we love to do, just not seriously.
We weren't Olympic athletes oranything, but it was something
(03:32):
we loved staying fit andswimming and running and cycling
.
And Greg had just bought a newbike.
It was the month of June, as Imentioned, He'd just got his tax
return refund from thegovernment and went out and
bought a bike.
He was ready to get a new oneand very excited, so he took
that money that was burning ahole in his pocket and off he
(03:53):
went to this great store andbought a bike and the last words
I said were I love you and I'lltalk to you later.
And he was hit by a carelessdriver just north of our home
here in Burlington while on histraining ride and he died in
hospital later that night.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I'm so sorry to hear, Eleanor.
I know that triggered you tostart the Share the Road Cycling
Coalition.
What is the Share the RoadCycling Coalition?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
If I may, it is a good question because after Greg
was killed, I I decided that Ium as I um grieved for him, um,
and I do come from a very largefamily of seven kids and um
fairly wide network, and so manypeople said you know, how can
we help?
And I got lots of calls frompoliticians because, as you
(04:44):
pointed out, in my early careerI worked for two prime ministers
and so I had a pretty vastpolitical network.
And the premier of Ontariocalled me I knew him, I still
know him, dalton McGinty andasked what could he do.
And I said I need you to stayin touch with me because I don't
know what it is, but we'regoing to do something because
Greg's death was so tragic andpreventable and silly really.
(05:07):
So all of it's so silly andpreventable and you know, this
was someone who I never thoughtwould die, would have his life
taken doing something he loved.
He was in a very riskyprofession for which he was
highly trained and I neverworried about him.
Risky profession for which hewas highly trained and I never
(05:28):
worried about him.
But somehow there he wasenjoying his training ride and
overtaken carelessly by amotorist who had several
convictions for driving undersuspension.
We'll get to that later.
But as I began to cope withGreg's death, I started you know
I mentioned I got several phonecalls from people who wanted to
help.
But I also started to reallythink what could we do?
(05:48):
And started to do some research, peter, about what existed, and
then I realized there reallywasn't any cycling advocacy
organization in Ontario that didthe kind of work that I thought
needed doing.
But before I did anything Ineeded to do more research.
So I traveled internationally.
I spent some time in the UnitedStates.
I started looking atjurisdictions that had the kind
(06:10):
of legislative constructs thatwe desperately needed in Ontario
and really started to learn alot.
Went to Europe my city,burlington, is twinned with
Appledorn in Holland.
We all know that theNetherlands is really so
advanced in terms of cycling,and so I started spending time
in Europe and developed anetwork of colleagues at the
European Cyclist Federation inthe UK and mainland Europe
(06:34):
France, germany, italy,netherlands and really started
talking to as many people as Icould about how do you do things
where you live and started tolearn about all of these
programs.
And then I spent some time herein Ontario as well and talked
to Canadians.
I did travel to BC, met withfolks at the BC Cycling
Coalition and had a chat withthem and, of course, velo Quebec
(06:56):
our dear friends in Quebec andstarted to really talk to people
here in Ontario.
And the reason I did that, peter, was because I wanted to make
sure that if we startedsomething, we were really doing
it as a result of what wasneeded and filling gaps, and it
was more research.
So I was invited to give talksand I would go to talk to city
(07:20):
council and do deputations.
I would speak to cyclingadvocates and I traveled around
Ontario and I learned about whatwe had at the time and really
what we didn't.
And so I asked people if webuild this, will you come?
Will you support it financially?
Will you?
Because, on a practical level,as you know, non-for-profits
need funding and what kind oforganization should it be and
(07:41):
what do you think we should beaddressing as a priority?
And then was getting veryencouraged by what I saw, which
was a huge hole.
As someone who'd spent most ofher life either in political
work or in non-for-profitadvocacy work, I realized that a
lot of what was needed at thecommunity level were savvy
(08:04):
advocates.
A lot of the people that werein communities were lovely and
very passionate, but didn't knowwhat I knew.
Didn't know how to influencebetter outcomes, how to work
with politicians or how to buildcommunity, and so that was one
of the big areas of focus thatwe had and we still have, which
is building a better advocacycommunity and equipping
(08:24):
advocates with the tools to besuccessful.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Can you give me an example of how that would work,
and let's pick one communitythat needed a lift.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, sure, I'm thinking of Halliburton, which
is a rural community in theMuskoka area.
They'll kill me for saying thatbecause they're not Muskoka.
They're adjacent to Muskoka.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Our listeners won't know the difference.
It's okay.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
They had a really great group of advocates there.
I was invited by a woman who'dheard about me and wanted me to
give a talk, and she worked inpublic health there, and so I
went up and I this again.
They said would you come?
We have this evening open.
We'd love you to come.
So I came.
I spent the after the talk, wehad a social time and I talked
(09:10):
to everybody in the room.
Peter and I asked them what doyou do?
So what would you like to see?
And, just really good thing,I'm so outgoing.
I talked to as many people as Icould about.
So how do things work here?
Tell me, did you know that thisis happening elsewhere in the
province, which was anotherreally interesting opportunity
for us.
It was quite clear thatmunicipalities weren't aware
(09:31):
that there was progress in otherplaces and there were things
going on, and that was a bigdisconnect.
But really, at the advocacylevel, just understanding how
people were trying to influenceoutcomes and not being
successful and I could see themgetting.
They're hitting their headsagainst the wall and getting
frustrated, and human behaviordictates that when you get
frustrated, we're not at ourbest.
(09:52):
I can say that I'm not perfect.
I get frustrated all the time,and when I get frustrated, I get
crabby, and when I get crabby,I don't really show up as my
best self, and I don't mean tomake fun or make light of these
issues, because our safety onthe road is deadly serious.
And what I saw, though, were abunch of people who had been
(10:13):
frustrated over the years andnot able to make the change that
they wanted to see, and someeting with them really and
talking to them about how to beeffective led to some more
formalization a lobby day at ourlegislature and all party
cycling caucus, which we cantalk about, an advocacy toolkit
that we developed online forpeople to share to really help
(10:33):
them to be more effective, andsome webinars on training
advocates to really teach themabout.
You know, as I often say, youknow, I remember this one woman
who was lovely, and her partnerjoined her, and the two of them
were quite, quite frustrated,and he said to me oh, I'm just
so mad, you know, I can't, wecan't get anywhere, it's so
frustrating.
I said, well, tell me, whathave you done?
(10:55):
Whoa, we, we went to this thingand we did, and they were
really not setting themselves upfor success.
So I said.
You know, as human beings it'snormally an okay to get
frustrated, but you know youdon't like it when people punch
you in the nose and poke you inthe eyes.
So politicians don't like thateither.
And your job is to make friendswith as many people as you can
and bring as many people alongas you can, because there's a
(11:16):
lot of joy in cycling.
So your joy you're, you're.
You are the ambassador of joy.
So your job is to get people onside as quickly and as often as
possible, and it's going totake a while, but trust me, it's
worth it.
I did the same thing with afellow in Sault Ste Marie who,
years later, after the mayor,said to me oh, we can't deal
with that fellow, he's so angryall the time.
And I met the mayor at theAssociation of Municipalities of
(11:40):
Ontario meeting and he said wecan't.
His name is Andre.
He won't mind me talking aboutthis lovely guy.
He came up to me years laterand said you know what?
Your advice to me was a gamechanger.
I said really?
He said yeah, you just told meto be fair and friendly and be
nice to people and show up andhave all my facts and try to
make friends.
And boy, did it ever change him?
(12:01):
He said cause I'm a Francophoneand I'm feisty and I'm an
emotional person.
And I got mad and I said allthose things are okay, but save
those for your friends andfamily or your pals over a beer.
When you're in public andyou're talking about cycling,
don't forget that you'recompeting against a lot of
really professionally, highlytrained lobbyists and other
people who want exactly what youwant, and so the best thing
(12:22):
that you can do is be fair andfriendly and say hello and can
we talk and then just carry onas you would in any professional
setting.
So those are some examples ofsome of the work that we did.
And then again, as I said, webegan to realize that this was a
big area of business for us andwe began to raise funding to do
these on a project basis and westarted training advocates en
masse.
(12:42):
And whenever I went to amunicipality, I would meet with
the council and meet with thecouncillors, and most
municipalities in Ontario anywayhave a bicycle advisory
committee of some sort, and Iwas on the bicycle advisory
committee in my own communitybecause I wanted to see how it
worked, and I would meet with asmany people as possible.
So when I went to a city Iwould give a talk usually, and
(13:05):
then spend the rest of my timetalking to decision makers,
influencers.
I'd shop, I'd go to the bikeshop and talk to people there
and really start to spread theword organically about our
organization.
And again, as many times as wecould, ask people their opinion
how are we doing?
What should we be doing thatwe're not doing.
And then, peter, once I spentsome time continuing to talk to
(13:34):
people, we realized that therewas room for an organization,
and so we incorporated and, as anon-for-profit organization,
appointed a board of directorsand then started grant writing
and hiring staff and building agood strategic plan, which each
non-for-profit should do.
Everybody knows that.
And so we got some funding todo a really robust strategic
plan and talked to as manypeople as we could again about
(13:57):
where they wanted to see us infive years and then got to work
at the Ontario Legislature,meeting with politicians and
with bureaucrats and talking tothem about what we needed to see
.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
So run me through some of your.
You've had some remarkablesuccesses.
Can you just give us a quickthumbnail of some of the things
that you implemented throughthis organization?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
So the first piece of legislation that we passed was
in Greg's memory.
I went to the commissioner ofthe OPP, the Ontario Provincial
Police, and I asked him if hewould help me to lobby for a
change in the Highway TrafficAct to deal with people the
fellow that killed my husband.
(14:40):
So he had five convictions fordriving under suspension, four
convictions for driving withouta license, $15,000 in unpaid
fines and two months after hekilled my husband, he hit
someone else and he was acommercial driver.
Months after he killed myhusband, he hit someone else and
he was a commercial driver.
So you can imagine, especiallyas the spouse of a police
(15:00):
officer.
Cops are notorious for cominghome from shift and saying, oh
my gosh, and telling you how wasyour day, how was your day,
that's what, that's what.
That's what spouses do.
And, um, I would hear thefrustration in Greg's voice.
He was a kind and lovely man,but he would get frustrated at
his own inability to deal withthe lack of safety that he saw
on the road.
And that spirit and thatdedication and that
(15:23):
determination was something thatI carried with me, and so when
I started doing research onlegislation in other provinces,
I realized that Alberta andSaskatchewan had legislation
that dealt with people whohabitually drive under
suspension, and people whohabitually drive under
suspension have a propensity totake risks, and so I was fairly
(15:48):
certain that those are the typeof people that probably cyclists
need to be concerned about.
Those are the type of peoplethat probably cyclists need to
be concerned about.
And so, again, I went to thecommissioner and I laid out a
business case for changing thelegislation, after doing all my
research, and I said we have thebusiest roads in the country.
We don't have this legislation.
Alberta and Saskatchewan haveit.
We need to have it.
Here's what I'd like to do.
(16:09):
Would you help me?
And he said, yes, I willabsolutely help you.
And I said, okay, I willabsolutely help you.
And I said, okay, I'll do thepolitics and the media, you do
the public service.
And he said, okay, you're on.
And so, less than a year later,we had Greg's law, which
heightened the penalties forpeople who drive habitually
(16:30):
under suspension, three quartersof whom are driving still,
which is really not great,because if you get hit by
someone who's under suspension,they don of whom are driving
still, which is really not great, because if you get hit by
someone who's under suspension,they don't have insurance.
Now, it may be different whereyou are because you have a
different regime of insurance,but in Ontario, if you're under
suspension, you're not insured,and if you hit someone, that
(16:50):
just adds to the tragedy.
So that's the first law that wedid.
So Greg's law was passed and itwent into effect in 2009.
And that was our first piece oflegislation, so that that this,
this, led to bigger and betterthings, but that was the first
thing we did.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
We left off.
You were talking about Greg'slaw and what it would do.
What are some of the othersuccesses that Share the Road
Cycling Coalition has had?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
In 2009, we started the Ontario Bike Summit, and
this was because we realizedthat municipalities weren't
sharing best practices aboutcycling and there was no forum
to do that or mechanism to do it, so we decided to create one.
We also wanted a forum forpolitical conversations and
advocacy and to allow advocatesthe opportunity to learn from
(17:45):
each other and municipalities tolearn from each other and to
invite municipal, federal sorry,provincial ministers to come
and join us and to hear what wasgoing on, because nothing was
happening provincially.
And in parallel, we werelobbying at Queen's Park and
starting to make traction withsome of the public policy work
that we needed.
But the Ontario Bike Summit wasimportant for one other reason
(18:09):
as I had started to work andlobby at the provincial level, I
realized that there was nocycling strategy in Ontario and
I knew that there was no waythat the officials were going to
do that.
And, to be fair, when Bob Raywas briefly premier in Ontario,
there was a cycling strategy,but that had been 20 years prior
and there had been nothing donesince.
And I knew that if we weregoing to get that done, we had
(18:31):
to do it ourselves.
And I knew that if we weregoing to get that done.
We had to do it ourselves.
So I raised some money and Ihired a pollster and we started
doing extensive research and wereached out to as many people
who would talk to us lawenforcement municipalities we
went to AMO, they gave us theirlist and so we did a big survey.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
What is AMO?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
The Association of Municipalities of Ontario.
I think you probably have asimilar construct, Peter, having
been a municipal politicianyourself.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
UBC, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
And so we went to AMO and we said would you allow us
to do a survey of your members?
And they said yes.
So we took all that survey dataand we wrote a fairly extensive
report when Ontario Bikes,ontario Benefits.
And that public policy document, which called for extensive
changes across an array ofministries in the Ontario
(19:20):
government, laid the groundworkfor the first Ontario cycling
strategy in Ontario four yearslater.
So after we wrote that reportwhich I wrote in BC, by the way,
during the Vancouver Olympicsin 2010, I stayed with my friend
in Vancouver and I wrote thatreport, I took all the research
and data and I pulled ittogether.
And then I walked into theoffice of the Minister of
(19:41):
Transportation who was later thePremier, kathleen Wynne, and I
said here is a comprehensivelook at cycling from people that
you care about Police, lawenforcement, municipalities,
public health, cycling advocatesand citizens across Ontario.
Here's what they want theirOntario government to do, and
you're not doing it and you needto do it.
And here it is, here it is, youdon't have to do another thing.
(20:03):
And she said right.
I came down from that meetingand on my way down, the Deputy
Minister of Transportation wasin the elevator by happenstance,
and he said so I hear we'redoing an Ontario cycling
strategy.
I said, well, good news travelsfast.
The minister had already, inthe time that it took me to get
to the elevator, actioned intothe deputy that we were going to
(20:26):
be embracing an opportunity todo a cycling strategy in Ontario
, with any inherent tourismbenefits, by the way.
So we didn't forget about theeconomic economic side of
cycling which, as you know,peter, is so important.
That was another success.
We laid the groundwork for acycling strategy and at the
ontario bike summit weamalgamated everyone and said
we're going to do this, thisstrategy, and we want your help.
(20:47):
And then, a number of monthslater, less than a year, we did
a press conference, conferencein Ontario and Toronto and we
released the results and weshowed everyone this is what
Ontario needs and this is whatthey don't have.
And the government sent an MPPto comment favorably on the with
(21:07):
the media there, glenn Murray,who was later my colleague in
cabinet, to comment verypositively.
He was Toronto Centre, so thelargest number of cyclists in
the country, aside fromVancouver and Montreal, live in
Toronto and so Glenn, being acyclist himself, said, yeah, I'm
in.
So that started some reallygreat momentum provincially for
(21:27):
us.
And then, three years later, wehad the first Ontario Cycling
Strategy.
But there's a story there too.
But I'm going to let you ask meanother question.
So that was another early win.
That was another early win.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Could you briefly describe the impact of the
cycling strategy?
What difference did it makehaving that strategy versus not
having it?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Game-changing.
I mean it started to reallydemonstrate the opportunities
inherent in the provincialgovernment playing a much
greater role.
It also showed them that peoplethat they cared about cared
about it.
Not just cycling, not justcyclists, as if we didn't matter
.
We do.
But I went to people that theylistened to municipal leaders,
(22:09):
law enforcement, public health,law enforcement, public health.
When you had those peoplesaying it and you start to build
civic society around yourargument, you can't you know,
politicians can't say no to that.
So we put together a reportthat was based on feedback and
interventions from those peoplethat government cared about.
And that's how we got theirattention and they started
(22:31):
working right away to build somecapacity within the army.
Because I was, I was meetingwith mto, I was meeting with the
ministry of transportation, Iwas getting nowhere, um, and I
actually had and and they're notbad people, they just they just
needed someone to nudge themalong, peter, and that's what we
did well, you're painting apicture that there's all the
(22:53):
support for cycling from themunicipalities, the health
authorities, and we all knowthat and have heard that, but
and imagine that sometimes inour mind to be more than it is.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And yet today in ontario, um, that doesn't seem
to be calling the shots in fromthe provincial government.
They seem to have turned oncyclists.
How are you responding to thatand how is that affecting these
initiatives?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
When we launched the first Ontario Cycling Strategy
in 2013 and then I was invitedto join the government in 2014,.
Our work really escalated fromthere, because then I got into
cabinet shortly after that andthe Premier invited me to do
much more change, which we did.
We started to operationalizethe ontario cycling strategy and
really, really drive it homeand and address the things that
were called for, and we heldourselves to account.
(23:41):
Based on that that feedbackthat we'd have from citizens,
people said this is what we wantyou to do, and we started doing
it and which were?
Speaker 1 (23:47):
what were those?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
things, um, invest in infrastructure, pass more
changes to the highway trafficact, including a one meter safe
passing law, which ont.
Ontario was the second provincein Canada to do and really
start to hone in on the economicimpacts of cycling tourism and
embrace that which we did andwhich, as when I was tourism
minister, I did the firstOntario cycling tourism strategy
in the history of the province,and the Ontario cycling route,
(24:11):
which is now almost finished.
The province and the Ontariocycling route, which is now
almost finished.
So so, yes, the currentgovernment has taken a step back
.
However, governments don't lastforever.
I think they're making a hugemistake.
They know that.
But we are working quietly andbehind the scenes to mobilize,
(24:32):
to make our voices heard in a inin the kind of behind the
scenes, to mobilize, to make ourvoices heard in the kind of
behind the scenes way.
We are an organization thatworks proactively and
productively with government andwe made sure, peter, that
cycling remains nonpartisan.
If we take a partisan approach,then we're no better than the
people we point fingers at andsay don't make cycling partisan.
(24:54):
People's lives should never bea political argument.
Don't politicize cycling foryour own benefit.
And so we shouldn't either.
And so we work across partylines with everybody in the
legislature and, yes, there aremembers of the government caucus
who have quietly said to me Idon't support what the premier
is doing.
And so we have friends on allsides of the legislature and
(25:15):
we're mobilizing and the mayors.
We just had our Ontario BikeSummit.
A panel of mayors saidresoundingly that the best thing
that the government can do forus is more cycling
infrastructure funding.
So we're clear on what ourlobbying strategy is, because
our stakeholders and partnershave told us what it needs to be
.
But the fact is that we have amajority government in Ontario
right now.
We have a premier who has adecidedly 1950s view of the
(25:41):
municipalities and he's fightingold battles when he was a
councillor at the City ofToronto when his brother was
mayor and he's also got a very,I suspect, peter.
He politicizes things becausethat's who he is and he's got a
very antiquated sense of whocyclists are and what they are.
He's decided that cyclists areBirkenstock-wearing,
(26:02):
cappuccino-sipping liberals andNDPers and those people don't
vote for him anyway.
So it's our job to mobilizecivil society and say wait a
second, that's not right.
And our public polling, peterwhich we do because polling
influences outcomes tell us that87% of Ontarians are cyclists
and motorists at the same time.
So it's a false paradigm toenter into this you versus me
(26:25):
thing because it doesn't exist.
So we call BS on that everychance we get, peter, because
it's simply not the case thatit's you versus me.
And people who create thatfalse paradigm and that
construct aren't interested insolving problems.
Well, it's the government's jobto solve problems.
That's why they're there.
And so you know, I thinkthere's some.
(26:47):
We're making some some, youknow, behind the scenes headway
and we're continuing to keepcycling alive in a very positive
way, because governments don'tlast forever.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
What is the role of the all party cycling caucus
that you have in Ontario?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
It's a great question .
So it is a common ground forumis a place where people from all
sides of the legislature it'sco-chaired, by the way, by Mike
Schreiner, who's the leader ofthe Green Party in Ontario, and
Mary Margaret McMahon norelation a Liberal MPP in
Toronto and who's a cyclist, andboth of them are and we have
(27:25):
chosen an NDP member, catherineMcKinney, who's also a member of
our caucus, and we are workingvery hard to get someone from
the government caucus Again.
We know that we have peoplewithin caucus that are
sympathetic, and so it's like Isay about everything Peter, the
train's leaving the station.
If you're not on it, you canalways join us later on.
(27:45):
It's okay.
You know it's okay when you seeus having fun without you, then
you can join, because we'remeeting over the summer with the
members of the caucus and we'redevising our legislative
strategy for the fall.
So we've got some privatemembers bills that we're'm
(28:28):
bringing that back to Ontariobecause we need to have a
nonpartisan forum to really havea fact-based, evidence-based
conversation that'snon-political, and our
conversations are all aboutfinding common ground, peter and
fact-based, by the way, andevidence-based, not political.
There's no room for politics.
It gets checked at the door.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Okay, I have a question for you about evidence.
You brought in a one meter safepassing distance.
We now have that in BC onemeter when you're traveling
under 50K, and 1.5 meters, whichpeople are always surprised
when I tell them that's thewidth of a queen-size mattress.
Have you got any evidence thatthat has made a difference and
(29:09):
how are you getting thatenforced?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Evidence?
I don't know, I'd have to askmy friends in law enforcement
about that.
Second, as officers in placeslike Toronto will tell you, it's
just helpful to have the chargeon the books, and if someone is
careless or is aggressivetowards a cyclist, then the
charge is there for them toleverage.
Right If it wasn't there.
I mean if it wasn't there.
(29:35):
And it's also a great forum forawareness.
So you mentioned the mattressthing.
We just had the commissioner ofthe OPP.
We just launched an awarenesscampaign featuring the
commissioner of the OPP, who's ahuge cyclist, and I called him
and said would you help us dothis?
(29:56):
And he said yes, and so the onemeter safe passing law is front
and center.
The campaign is about the onemeter law and it's about
reminding motorists that theyneed to give cyclists space, and
sharing the road is not just afun idea In Ontario, it's the
law, and so we just launchedthat a month ago fantastic.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
something else that your organization does that
fascinates me and we didactually a whole podcast about
this, but I'd love your updateon it is bike friendly
communities, and I know thatyour summit in part is a way to
announce the latest winners andwho's gold, silver and and
whatever and can you tell us howthat works and how effective
that's been?
(30:35):
And also I want to know what itwould take for us to get it
here in BC.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
It's a fairly resource-heavy and intensive
research-heavy exercise.
We brought the Bike FriendlyProgram from the US in 2010.
We helped to launch it inQuebec with fellow Quebec.
A number of years later, welaunched it at again the AMO
conference, the Association ofMunicipalities of Ontario.
I invited my friend who'd beenthe mayor of Madison, wisconsin,
(31:07):
dave Cheslevich.
I invited a mayor to speak tomayors.
So don't listen to me.
Here's a guy who said stood inthe room and said I was elected
three times on a cycling agenda.
They were like whatPoliticians' ears perked up?
How did that happen?
Well, here's what I did andthis is how he did it.
And like the lineup to talk tohim was out the door because
(31:31):
politicians were makingassumptions.
No one wants cycling.
87% of people in this provinceare multimodal.
Don't let the false argumentsand false paradigms rule your
world.
It's bunk.
It's not true.
Don't create a construct toserve your political ends.
So the bike-friendly program hasbeen a game changer for us, the
(31:54):
biggest thing I think it doeswell, there are three things it
does.
Number one it measures progressand honors municipalities in a
really positive way.
We need more positive incycling, peter.
I'm really keen on this.
We just need more opportunityto embrace.
Peter.
I'm really keen on this.
We just need more opportunityto embrace progress.
Better is always possible.
The standard of perfection thatwe set ourselves sometimes and
I've seen advocates do this alot and it kind of makes my hair
(32:16):
stand on end Don't let perfectbe the enemy of the good.
When there's progress, saluteit every single time, because
progress begets progress.
If people are doing things well, tell them thank you.
It's just human behavior.
And what the Bike FriendlyProgram does is it really helps
municipalities have a differentand very positive conversation
about cycling versus.
Oh my gosh, we really suck,we're terrible.
(32:39):
Well, actually, you're not.
You're doing a lot of reallygood things.
So it works on the basis of anapplication.
It's very extensive, um, and wewe help municipalities through
it.
We have a panel of expertjudges who are planners,
engineers, city builders,urbanists.
I'm on the panel.
I'm not sure how I fall intothat.
(32:59):
I'm not an engineer or planner,um, I just care about this
stuff and we adjudicate.
There's also a section of theapplication excuse me that is
highly weighted towardsmunicipal feedback.
So it's a really great way formunicipalities to hear from
their citizens about how they'reactually doing, and it's not
(33:21):
for us, as judges, to come inand say we're having this
conversation with the city ofWindsor right now, by the way,
because we just had the summitthere and always an outcome of
our summit is a revisiting oftheir bicycle-friendly community
designation, and there's adesire to do that.
Cities are hungry for how to bebetter, how to do it differently
, how other municipalities aredoing it, and a platform that
(33:43):
allows them to share thatinformation is exactly what the
bike friendly program does, andit really does reward success,
and if you're not quite there,it says, okay, you're doing
great, but really, if you wantto progress, here are five
things that you should doimmediately.
Here are five that maybe youwant to address in the medium
term and in the longer.
(34:04):
You have to demonstrateprogress towards implementation
of a cycling network and abicycle master plan, for example
, an AT master plan that's avibrant part of your
transportation master plan.
This is how it works in Ontarioanyway.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
How do you deal with communities that are very small
and maybe don't have even atraffic planner or
transportation planner?
Because I noticed that inqualifying for this, you have to
get a group of people togetherin your municipality, you have
to include the politicians andthe engineers and so on, and if
they're very thinly resourced,how do they deal with it?
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I've actually never had a problem with that.
I mean, even in smallcommunities you can still manage
to pull together one or twostaff from the city Sometimes
it's the CAO, sometimes it'sthat you can pull in public
health, because in Ontarioanyway, public health is a
regional responsibility.
In Ontario anyway, publichealth is a regional
responsibility and they have,especially in large catchment
(35:07):
areas, you know, public healthstaff and adjoining
municipalities, even if youdon't have one in your
municipality.
So it's, it's really you need achampion in this in the
community.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Is that a requirement that public health has to be
involved?
Speaker 2 (35:18):
No, but it's helpful.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
But they're useful allies, of course.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
It's really useful allies and, again, they are the
evidence-based people who say,well, we do lots of campaigns
for anti-obesity and quitsmoking and better heart and all
these things, and cycling isreally connected to all those
things and, by the way, when youdo it, you should really be
safe.
So, by the way, get going onimplementing better
infrastructure and, oh, by theway, get the tourism people
involved too, because we knowthat cycling tourism is hugely
(35:44):
beneficial to communities andthere's lots of data we've done
and others have done that looksat measuring the impact of
cycling from a tourismperspective.
So it's really about findingallies where you can and even
small municipalities can pulltogether.
You know folks who areinterested and the other thing
(36:05):
is that we match them up withother municipalities who've been
successful.
As I mentioned Windsor, we'regoing to do a workshop in the
fall for the Go for Silverworkshop in Windsor.
That will bring together all theusual suspects city staff,
advocates, politicians againpublic health all the law
(36:25):
enforcement, city staff,advocates, politicians again
public health all the lawenforcement everybody into a
room to have a conversationabout where do we see Windsor in
five years.
And then we're bringing intothat forum probably the city of
Ottawa or one of our goldbicycle friendly communities to
really give them a picture,because I think most people are
visual, peter, and if you cantell them where they want to get
(36:46):
to and then give them some ideaon what the route looks like
and how to get there, I thinkthere's a lot of gratitude for
that, because everybody wants tobe in a constant improvement
mode.
Most people do, and if you tellthem, you know, in five years,
this is where, this is where youwant to be, maybe and we can
help you by introducing you tomunicipalities who are there
(37:06):
already and they can tell youwhat's possible and how to do it
.
Can I give you another examplethat's not bike-friendly related
?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
When I was in government, I learned that New
Brunswick was trying to pass aone-meter safe passing law
because they'd had the death ofa high profile cyclist who was a
professional cyclist, and shedied, sadly, in the same way
that Greg did.
Someone pulled up to pass herand on a one lane road, and
that's what happened with Greg.
And so this is what you can dowhen you're in cabinet.
(37:40):
So I found out who the ministerwas.
I looked at his social mediafeed and I saw that he was
advocating to get this done.
So I arranged a call with himand he said oh, eleanor, the
premier's really dragging hisfeet.
He doesn't want to do it.
And I said why?
Ontario's got it?
We have the biggest roads, thebusiest roads in the country.
If we can do it, you can do it.
And then I gave him a bunch ofinformation.
(38:01):
Then I said CAA, by the way,one of our biggest allies on
everything we do, but certainlyon road safety, things like this
, and he's like CAA.
I never even thought of themand I said boom, you should
reach out to them.
So voila, caa got involved inAtlanta, canada, they passed the
law.
And the reason I share thatstory, peter, is once you can
show that somebody else who'sdone it.
(38:21):
So he said I talked to himafter.
He said I told the premier whatyou said and I said, oh good,
goodness me, I hope that's okay,but you know, pointing out to
him that the place with thebusiest roads in the country was
able to do it.
You just have to have that.
Yes, we can.
Attitude Peter.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
What's your opinion of automated safety enforcement
red light cameras, speed camerasand so on?
They would be, as I see it,immensely effective, but there's
obviously a political issuethere.
Have you ever taken that one on?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
I've never taken that one on.
I know it's being debated in intoronto right now um people are
going around and destroying.
There's a message it's reallyquite distressing.
Um, yeah, uh-huh.
Um.
Well, no one likes to be caught, um, and punished.
Um, uh.
I remember when, uh, I wastalking to the commissioner of
(39:22):
the OPP about doing Greg's lawand I said why is it that
penalties?
Money works.
What is it that changespeople's behavior?
Because, peter, when you docycling work like we do, it's
about behavior change.
Getting people to thinkdifferently about cities,
getting people to plandifferently, put in
(39:42):
infrastructure, thinking abouttheir city to plan differently,
put in infrastructure, thinkingabout their city modal mix
differently and changingpeople's behavior in the context
of law enforcement means shortchart penalties sometimes that
say to people you broke the lawand now you're going to pay the
consequences for that because welive in a lawful society.
So I don't personally have anissue with speed enforcement
(40:06):
that reminds people about howthey need to drive or should
drive.
Anything that reminds people tostay safe on the road is, I
think, a really good idea.
I don't know, I don't know ifthat answers your question.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
It's one of those things where I think there may
be a perception that the publicis against it, and you mentioned
some of those cameras gotsmashed.
I'm reminded of the recentreferendum I believe it was in
Paris about whether they shouldallow e-scooters, and it was
defeated.
So they don't have e-scooters,but 5% of the people voted, and
(40:37):
just one angry person smashing acamera may give the impression
that everybody's against this,but you do the polling and your
polling data would probably show.
As ours shows, for example, ona 30-kilometer speed limit in
residential areas, 75% of thepeople across the province think
that's a great idea in theirneighborhood, but the
(40:57):
politicians won't touch it.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
We did it when we were in government.
We did it.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
As a default across the province.
And was there pushback?
It's allowed in BC, but the itas a default across the province
.
And was there pushback?
It's allowed in BC, but themunicipalities have to each take
it on.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
And we're advocating it should just be blanket across
the province.
Yeah, that one's so sensible tome.
I remember Jeanette Sadek-Khan,the former commissioner of
transportation in the city ofNew York under Bloomberg, and
she now works for Bloomberg at acity's Institute.
But, um, she oversaw, uh, underhis direction, the the greatest
transformation in New York cityfrom a cycling point point of
(41:34):
view.
Um, probably ever.
Um, really, uh, if, if you goto New York and I do have been a
little while I'm not going tothe States much these days, but
one of my best friends works atthe United Nations in New York,
so I'm and I cycle when I'mthere and I'm quite safe and
comfortable.
It's remarkable what she didclosed down Times Square to
vehicles.
Yeah, there's always going tobe pushback.
(41:55):
Remember before I said you knowpeople don't like change.
People don't like change, peter, you know this right.
And we're asking people tochange and we're asking them to
share the road, and we're askingthem to be kind and we're
asking them to give up space,and we're asking them to give in
to people's instinct to improvethe planet, their personal
health, mitigate congestion andlower their own personal costs,
(42:18):
which is everything that cyclingdoes.
And why is any of that bad?
Back to Jeanette, what she toldme about how they succeeded in
New York was, she said I justmade it about congestion and
safety.
So to your point about howmunicipalities push back, if you
start to talk about children incommunity safety zones, which
is what we did, who can beagainst saving children's lives?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
yeah, exactly who.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Who can be against that?
Right it just and, and you knowwhen, when you're in Europe, in
the UK, where I spent some timethere after this global cycling
conference in Gdansk recently,just last week I came home on
Sunday and a bunch ofneighborhoods that I was in I
spent some time with friendscycling.
I did a bike bus with a groupof women that I met in Gdansk,
(43:04):
in Glasgow, and they had thesesigns all over the neighborhood.
20 is plenty.
20 is plenty.
Miles an hour, by the way,because they do miles in the UK,
but it was interesting 20 isplenty.
I thought that's so perfect,right?
I mean, why do we need to goquickly, peter?
Why can't we slow down in ourneighborhoods and look after
(43:27):
each other and our neighbors andour friends?
Slow down.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Well, politicians will frequently think of the
frustrated motorists justwanting to get somewhere faster.
But when you ask the questionfrom the point of view of your
neighborhood, do you think carsshould go slower in your
neighborhood?
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Overwhelmingly people say yes, Eleanor, we got to
wrap this up, but before we go,you were in Gdansk.
You talked to the EuropeanCyclist Federation, was that it?
Yeah, so the ECF has a globalcycling conference.
It was in Vancouver, by the way, in 2010.
It's been in Canada twice.
1992 could have been 2012.
Sorry, peter, I'm old now Iforget stuff, but they have the
(44:03):
Velocity Cycling Conferenceevery year and it brings it's a
global conference.
About 2000 people attend.
Uh, I've been going since 2009.
Uh, I've been most years.
When I was elected I didn't go,but um, I, uh, and, and, and it
and.
It brings together cyclingadvocates, professionals, city
(44:23):
leaders, european.
It's a very gravitas conferenceand I was asked to speak on a
panel with colleagues from Paris, brussels, poland, the United
States about bike clash.
So a bit of what we're talkingabout now how there is pushback
against, pushback against uh,cycling, um, and how we deal
(44:48):
with that and how we manage that.
So that was the conversation,uh, that we had.
So it was.
It was interesting and greatfor me to see longtime friends
that I only see once a year,once every couple of years, my
Dutch and Danish friends, forexample.
So great, great to be in thatvenue and lots of things that
I've learned.
It's always really inspiring tobe there, peter.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Well, speaking of conferences, the BC Cycling
Coalition and the PlanningInstitute of BC are doing a
regional cycling conference inKimberley in September 10th to
the 12th and I keep throwingthat out there in these podcasts
to encourage people to attend,and I'll talk to you later about
that, because maybe we can getyou there.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Yeah, if you want me to come, maybe I'll look at my
calendar and see what I can do.
I love coming to BC.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
But I wanted to ask you one more thing about
conflict that I'm now hearingabout between, and I'm thinking
about Europe and all thedifferent modes of travel, the
e-scooters and the faster,bigger, better e-bikes.
It's now the line betweennon-motorized and motorized
transportation starting to getvery blurry.
And there's we're hearingpushback again.
(45:55):
I don't know if it's justpeople who are finding another
reason to be angry at cyclistsor actual.
I think it's more as much fromlegitimate cyclists, for, for
example, a friend of mine Iheard who got knocked off her
bike by passing e-bike going toofast.
What are your thoughts aboutcongestion in the bike lanes and
these new technologies?
Are they legitimate partners ordo we have to somehow find a
(46:19):
new place for them?
Speaker 2 (46:30):
new place for them.
I'm going to a session one-bike regulation in Ontario in
a couple of weeks that theprovincial government is putting
on.
I think, peter, it's a coupleof things.
I think this is fairlystraightforward and it feels
complicated because people don'tknow what to do, but we
regulate cars from a speed pointof view.
We don't let people just go anyspeed they want.
We have controlled zones and wecontrol people's speeds and,
(46:54):
you know, depending on wherethey are, I think it's probably
a good idea to, because peoplemake bad choices, peter, whether
they're behind the wheel, andsometimes you and I have seen
this, we've all seen it.
I've done so many mediainterviews and I've never
defended people who are carelessor unsafe, because we are human
(47:19):
beings first and cyclists andmotorists second, and that human
beingness means that we makesilly decisions sometimes, and
silly choices when they impactother people, then we have to
pay the price for that.
Sadly, however, there's lawsthat prevent and mitigate our
behavior.
So if there's an opportunity tolook at people's choices when
(47:44):
they're in the bike lane and iftheir behavior is causing those
places to be unsafe, then weshould have a conversation about
how we put limits on people'sspeed If they can't behave
responsibly.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Makes sense to me.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
We may have to do that.
We do it with cars, peter, and,as I said earlier, in Ontario
anyway, 87% of people aremotorists, and cyclists too, and
so I think this is just likeany other group of road user.
If people are not behaving well, then we have to say to them
you know this is a privilege,not a right, and you need to
(48:23):
govern yourself well and toensure that you do, to protect
you and the people around you,we're going to put limits on
your speed and then doenforcement, peter.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
Wow, it's so great hearing your story, and I
hesitate to say this, but Ithink that part of your story is
your strength as a person andyour connections and your energy
, and if there were one of youin every province in Canada,
we'd be well on our way.
But failing that, we'll see youas an example of what can be
(48:54):
done from a personal level.
And, of course, your strengthis in mobilizing other people to
do the work together andbringing all these people
together.
What a great story.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Well, thank you.
Happy to chat anytime.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original
podcast from the BC CyclingCoalition.
Bike Sense, an original podcastfrom the BC Cycling Coalition.
If you like the podcast, we'dbe grateful if you could leave
us a rating.
On whatever platform you use,you can also subscribe so you
don't miss future episodes.
(49:40):
If you have comments orsuggestions for future episodes,
email me at peterladner atbccyclingca.
You can help us amplify BCCycling Coalition's voice.
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