October 14, 2025 • 35 mins
The width of a queen-size mattress. That’s the picture we keep coming back to when we talk about BC’s new minimum safe passing distance for cyclists. But how can police actually prove a too-close pass, and what tools — from dashcams to clear signage to fines — will result in safer daily rides? Corporal Michael McLaughlin, Media Relations Officer for BC Highway Patrol (RCMP), joins us to unpack what’s enforceable, what’s cultural, and where advocates can focus to move the needle.
Bill 24 (safe passing distance legistlation)
Share the Road Cycling Coalition (ON)
Cops for Cancer fatality Prince George
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling
Coalition's podcast, where wetalk about all things related to
active transportation advocacyin BC.
I'm your host, Peter Ladner,Chair of the Board of the BC
Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
(00:50):
Cyclists in BC have beenoutraged and saddened by news of
fellow cyclists being killed bymotorized vehicles in recent
months and years.
One particularly tragic andrecent example was the cyclists
riding in the Pentecton Fondo,who was killed.
There were two cyclists killedin Prince George.
(01:10):
One cyclist killed in PrinceGeorge and two injured during a
training ride for a cops forcancer ride.
And there were other instancesin U Royal, Langford, Nanoose
Bay.
It makes all of us a little bitwary and a little bit angry and
wondering what we can do aboutit.
One response has been topressure the BC government to
(01:31):
pass Bill 24, which they did inJune 2024, which requires cars
to leave a one-meter passingdistance between them and
vulnerable road users, includingcyclists, under 50 kilometers an
hour and 1.5 meters at higherspeeds, which I like to remind
people is the size of a queensize mattress.
(01:51):
But cyclists ask themselves, isthis being enforced?
If it is, uh has anybody evergot a ticket for this?
And if we want to know, how dowe find out?
So I'm here to find out.
And I've invited to join ustoday, Corporal Michael
McLaughlin, who is the mediarelations officer for the BC
(02:13):
Highway Patrol, which is part ofthe RCMP.
And uh he's hopefully gonna giveus some answers.
Welcome, Michael.
Glad to be here, Peter.
First of all, can I call youMichael?
I know your proper title isCorporal McLaughlin.
Um is it okay to call youMichael?
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
Sure.
I think for the purposes of thisconversation, let's get right to
it and go with first names.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Okay.
So let's get right to it.
And I'm gonna start with mystandard question.
I know you're a cyclist.
SPEAKER_01 (02:40):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Could you describe for me your most recent ride?
SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
Ooh, most recent ride.
Well, I'm a club rider, amongother things.
I really like road riding, so Ithink my most recent ride would
probably be that.
Um I tend to go on weekends forthese long 100 to 200 kilometer
road rides where I race myfriends, have some fun that way.
And I'm also a commuter.
Um, so this week I'm a littleunder the weather, but normally
(03:06):
I'm riding once or twice a weekto work as well.
So as much as possible, I'mgetting on two wheels.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
So when you say ride to work, you're riding to the
headquarters in Surrey?
SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
That's right.
Yes.
So I go over a bridge, sometimestwo bridges, depending on the
route that I take and how muchtime that I've got, and of
course the weather.
Sometimes you want to get home alittle more quickly.
Do you feel safe when you'reriding to work?
That's a great question.
And I think the answer is, asI'm going to say often today, it
depends.
Uh, if the weather's great andI've got lots of room and I'm
(03:37):
feeling confident and thetraffic isn't too tied up, I can
feel really confident.
On other days, perhaps as acareless driver or the weather's
poor, I don't feel as confident.
So it really depends for me.
And I try to engineer my ridinga little bit on my level of
confidence for each day.
You know, evaluate each day alittle bit differently because
each day does bring youdifferent conditions.
SPEAKER_00 (04:00):
Have you been passed by cars that are closer than the
safe passing distance?
SPEAKER_01 (04:05):
Oh, of course.
Haven't all cyclists been passedby somebody going too closely.
Heck, I was even hit this yearuh on my on my commute home.
I had a driver not payingattention, looking right instead
of left.
And uh luckily I saw the carcoming and was practicing some
of what I preach here and didn'tuh the collision wasn't too bad.
But sure, yeah, being being tooclose to vehicles is an
(04:27):
omnipresent problem for me too.
Well, let's talk about that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
So you got hit by a car.
Car made contact with you.
Sure did.
Was there a fine levied for thatcar breaking the safe passing
distance rules?
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
So in this case, the car was coming out of a parking
lot and crossing over a bikelane to get into traffic.
And it was one of those paintedbike lanes that are quite common
now in the Metro Vancouver area.
I think they are helpful, butthey can lead to a bit of
complacency from bicycle riders,which we're going to come back
to later.
Luckily, perhaps because of myjob and I'm well aware of the
(05:04):
risks, I'm constantly lookingout for problems.
So as this person came out ofthe parking lot and blew through
the lane, I slowed down enoughso that the collision was minor
and actually hit the side of hiscar.
So, yes, that would still havebeen a violation.
It would have been afail-to-yield violation.
In this case, I wasn't hurt.
Uh, we talked, we exchangedinformation, and my bike was
(05:27):
okay, so I chose not to pursue aclaim or any charges, and we
just went about our way.
Did you get mad?
Uh yeah, I think it's fair tosay I got mad in the moment.
Um, fortunately, I controlled mytongue to a point.
Um I don't think getting angryis is going to be useful in that
situation, although I certainlyfelt that emotion.
(05:48):
But yeah, I mean, I'm human.
Uh, I don't I don't like gettinghit by a car any more than the
next person.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
Well, it sounds like your case may have been one of
those it depends issues becausethe car was coming out from the
side, not just going parallelwith you.
But uh let's say it was goingparallel with you.
Um is this first my firstquestion is really, is this
legislation even enforceable?
Like how would you enforce, howwould you know or measure or
(06:16):
prove that somebody was tooclose within that forbidden
distance?
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
You're asking a really important question.
And a lot of people get upsetwhen uh laws aren't enforced as
much as they would like.
But the trick with the minimumpassing distance law is you must
prove beyond a reasonable doubtthat the person was within that
minimum passing distance.
One of the great tools that BCHighway Patrol has now is in all
(06:43):
of our vehicles, we have dashcamera mounted video.
And as each officer movestowards having body camera, that
also gives us a new level ofevidence.
The trick is you're probablygoing to have to have video
evidence or something similar toprove that minimum passing
distance.
So this is never a law that Iwould expect is going to get
(07:05):
enforced in enormous numbers.
Unfortunately, it might getenforced more after the fact
when a collision has occurred.
It does give police that extratool if a cyclist hasn't been
seriously hurt, for instance.
Uh the fact that you madecontact with a cyclist is pretty
clear evidence that you areviolating that law, so a driver
(07:28):
can get a ticket that way.
It is nice as a police officerand as a traffic enforcement
officer to have that extra toolin your tool belt.
Again, I caution people, I don'tthink we're ever going to see
enormous numbers, but this isprogress in terms of
legislation.
Also don't forget, most driversare really trying to do the
right thing.
They're trying to obey the law.
(07:49):
And when you codify thesethings, when you tell people,
look, 1.5 meters is as close asyou want to be, and it's the
size of a queen-sized mattress,then most people will try to
follow that law.
So hopefully we, as the as ourculture improves with cycling
and driving, we get more andmore safer and respectful of
(08:09):
these different road users.
SPEAKER_00 (08:11):
Well, let's talk about that.
We are both of us assuming thatdrivers know about this, but I
would say it's a safe assumptionthat they have no idea.
Do you have any suggestions asto how we could ensure that they
at least know about the safepassing, the minimum passing
distance?
SPEAKER_01 (08:29):
Education is always a really important part of any
law.
And you're you're right.
Most people probably don't knowthat there is a law one to 1.5
meters.
But slowly over time, we have toeducate people.
With education comesenforcement, because no matter
how much education you do, therewill always be some people who
(08:50):
are scofflaws.
They don't care what thelegislation says or they think
it doesn't apply to them.
This is very common when you'restopping people for traffic
tickets.
They will give you an excusethat rhymes with, well, I'm
special.
I don't need to follow thedistracted driving laws in
particular, I don't need tofollow the speed limit because
I'm a good driver and I have agreat car, this kind of thing.
(09:11):
So yeah, education's alwaysgoing to be a piece.
I think one of the key things toremember, particularly in these
polarized times, is gettingangry and finger wagging is
probably not the optimal way toconvince people to change their
behavior.
I'm very conscious of that as apolice officer.
I try to use humor in discussingthese things, but talk about it,
(09:34):
talk about it a lot.
Uh, Hub and the other cyclingadvocacy groups out there need
to bring it up regularly in away that is really meant to
share the information, I think,rather than force it down
people's throats.
And over time, and it will taketime, people will get better and
better and more and moreknowledgeable.
Another key component iseducating the youth as they're
(09:55):
first getting into driving.
Include bicycle awareness andvulnerable road user awareness
in that uh that curriculum fordriving schools.
Make sure there's a componentwhere they understand what the
rules and laws are.
Is that there now?
I don't know.
I'd have to talk to, and you'dhave to talk to private
companies who are actuallydelivering this because it's
(10:15):
it's not a government-runprogram in terms of uh driver
education.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
Aaron Powell Doesn't ICBC have a standard curriculum
that the private driving schoolshave to adhere to or live up to?
SPEAKER_01 (10:26):
So as I understand it, there is standard um metrics
that must be met, but these arereally leading more into the
driving test component.
You know, you must meet XYZbehavior.
And it's not so much um it's notso much telling people how they
have to instill that behavior.
Which is why when you'reselecting a driving school,
(10:47):
parents, I would say be veryselective.
Don't go for the cheapestversion, go for a version that
is established and that has uhthat really takes their job
seriously and is not just tryingto educate people to pass the
test, the the road tests.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
Well, I think you, in some previous correspondence
we had suggested ICBC could getinvolved.
Does ICBC have a role in this?
SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
ICBC certainly has a role.
There's also an organization,Road Safe BC, where they do a
lot of education on road safety.
We work with them a bunch aswell.
And I see it on their on theirsocial media platforms.
They are putting these sorts ofmessages out.
And with any sort of message onsocial media or any and anywhere
else, you need to repeat it overand over for it to sink into
(11:35):
people.
One recent thing we've done,unrelated to cycling in
particular, but we can we canget back to this and for
vulnerable road users as well,is there was a law passed in
2018 called mandatory alcoholscreening, where police no
longer need reasonable andprobable grounds, or pardon me,
reasonable suspicion to believethat somebody has consumed
(11:56):
alcohol to administer a roadsidebreath test.
So this has been going on forseven years, and the vast
majority of drivers still don'tknow about it.
So we've actually relaunched acampaign this year to educate
people on mandatory screening,and I must have put it in four
or five different news releasesand done a dozen interviews, and
even professional journalistsdon't realize this law is there.
(12:19):
So it just tells you anytimeyou're trying to educate people
on a relatively new law, likethe vulnerable road users law,
which is only a year old, it'sgoing to take some time and a
lot of repetition and effort andpatience.
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
And money.
Because in Ontario, the Sharethe Road Coalition has launched
a very big ad campaign with TVvideos and all that to make to
bring this uh point across.
But another idea that's been putforward, which I'd love to hear
your thoughts on, are is tochange the road signs that say
share the road, and they have apicture of a car and a bicycle,
(12:51):
and insert in between them 1.5meters and two little arrows
pointing at each at each of thetwo parties.
And that would be a constantreminder, like a little mini
billboard that the drivers areseeing all the time, over and
over, at no real significantcost, and you don't have to pay
for media and TV ads orwhatever.
(13:12):
Is that something that you wouldsupport or you think would be
useful?
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
Well, anecdotally, do I think that'd be useful?
Sure.
I I think there's anytime you'redealing with changes like this,
it's got to be a multi-prongedapproach.
And you've got to bring increative ideas.
I like the idea of road signs.
Now, one thing I have observedfrom talking to many, many
people at the side of a road isdrivers don't absorb every road
(13:37):
sign they see, to say the least.
And the more complicated youmake a sign, the less likely
they are to understand it.
But could that be a component?
Could you put it in some or onmore signs?
I think that's a great idea.
You know, once uh once you lookat the cost, it sounds to me
like it could be a fairly lowcost, um, effective, and again,
not preachy way to get thismessage across.
(13:59):
So just as we're talking here,seems like a great idea.
Let's let's see if uh let's runit at the flagpole and see what
happens.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Would you support us if we went to somebody and asked
to have that to make thathappen?
SPEAKER_01 (14:10):
Officially, as a member of the ERCMP, I don't
advocate, so I couldn't Icouldn't go that far.
But as a cyclist, would I liketo see creative ideas like that?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
So we don't have any data, I gather, on uh say
passing distance enforcement.
Um, we don't know.
Uh is there a way that cyclingadvocates and and uh safety
advocates in differentcommunities around BC could get
that data or work with theirlocal law enforcement agency, in
many cases the RCMP, to educatedrivers more or enforce it more?
(15:02):
What could we be doing?
SPEAKER_01 (15:04):
So yes, there I think there's different things
we could be component doing.
When it comes to the statisticsside of things, ICBC is the best
organization in BC.
As police, we tend to use acouple of different databases,
primarily the Prime database,also a database called TISMIT,
where we collect enforcement andticket data respectively.
(15:25):
But it gets really complicated.
Our databases aren't set up forgathering province-wide
statistics.
They're really set up more fordetachments, individual areas,
individual units to track uh totrack enforcement for court
purposes, first of all, and thensecondly for the priorities of
that community unit ordetachment.
(15:46):
So that's one of the reasons ittakes ICBC quite a long time,
typically a year, to vet all theinformation, put it all
together, crunch the numbersout, make sure they're they're
accurate.
So certainly approaching ICBCabout that is one thing for
advocates that they make oneavenue advocates may consider
taking.
In terms of local detachmentsand units, absolutely, there's
(16:07):
no reason a local cyclingcommunity organization can't
approach their local detachment,can't approach their local BC
Highway Patrol station and askabout doing something
cooperative.
There are people like me whosejob it is to do public
relations, to do that outreachto the community.
And really, my job in somerespects is no different from
(16:30):
any other police officer on theroad.
Public safety number one,protect life and limb number
one.
And if cycling advocates cancome with that goal in mind and
show that, hey, you know, we'redoing this to protect not only
current road users, but the nextgeneration of cyclists coming
up, I think that there could bea real appetite for that.
Even approaching like communityliaison officers working in
(16:52):
schools might be a way of doingit.
So there are many differentavenues that we could take that
maybe don't cost as much money.
And I encourage you to getcreative and get local when
you're when you're trying to getthese messages out.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
I want to do a little sidebar here on you
mentioned the BC Highway PatrolOffice and the RCMP as though
they may be different.
Can you just explain thedifference between the two?
SPEAKER_01 (17:18):
Well, BC Highway Patrol is essentially a part of
the RCMP, but what we do that'sdifferent, though we have when
you when you see an RCMP officerin uniform, they're what we call
a contract police officer.
That means we're part of theprovincial police.
We're doing uh enforcement inCoquitlam, Ashcroft, communities
on Vancouver Island and aroundthe province.
(17:40):
BC Highway Patrol doesn't have adetachment where it's answering
911 calls like those, like aplace like Coquitlam.
What we're doing typically isfocused on numbered highways, so
major arterial highways in theprovince, and we are doing
mostly enforcement, plus, wehave a mandate to do serious
(18:01):
collisions involving fatalitiesand suspected criminality, where
we're the primary investigatingagency.
So it's not as easy to walk upto a BC Highway Patrol office
and propose something simplybecause we don't have a front
counter where people approachand do a criminal records check
and make a complaint, et cetera,et cetera.
That tends to be a detachment.
But we work hand in glove withour RCMP uh compatriots around
(18:25):
the province.
We have the same powers ofarrest, the same powers of
investigation, and our primarygoals, which is public safety
and enforcing the law, areexactly the same.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
So you would advise if people wanted to talk to the
BC Highway Patrol, if you go toyour local RCMP, they that's the
conduit to the highway patrol.
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
Yeah, that's a great place to start.
Um you can also do a good oldinternet search and come up with
a BC Highway Patrol uh contacton the internet.
It'll probably end up in myinbox, actually.
And I'll if I can't answer yourquestion, I I know somebody who
will.
So yeah, we we've beenapproached by people in the
community many times.
I get multiple emails um everyweek and sometimes every day
(19:07):
from interested members of thepublic.
We try and answer everybody'squestions.
We try and the you know the thebest service we can with the
resources that we have.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
Um You may I'm not gonna ask you, put you on the
spot and ask you your thoughtson the BC government's uh
pausing/slash canceling of theiractive transportation grants to
communities to make roads safer,a mere one less than one percent
of their budget.
Um but one of the proposals thatwe've come up with is that uh,
because of course they have todeal with financial pressures
(19:40):
that are pretty extreme rightnow, um, to step up automated
enforcement and use thoserevenues to pay for design
improvements and bike routes andso on.
What are your thoughts onautomated enforcement uh red
light cameras and or speedenforcement that doesn't require
(20:00):
extra police personnel, in fact,could save money on police
personnel and be effective,fair, and of course revenue
generating, which I knowsometimes triggers people, but
still if they voluntarily breakthe law, they should be okay
with paying a fine.
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
Yeah, that's a that's a serious and important
conversation to have.
Uh, as a police officer, I can'tadvocate one way or the other.
Um I think these are worthyconversations.
We have to figure out um thatright balance between giving up
some of the perceived liberty onroads so that we are safer and
that we have resources to applyto whatever priorities that we
(20:41):
want to.
As a police officer and as BCHighway Patrol, we're going to
enforce the laws that are outthere.
We're going to work with theresources you you give us as a
government and as taxpayers.
While we can't advocate, we doencourage creative ideas.
You know, come up, come up withwhatever you think is useful and
we'll make it work when you tellus what that is.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
So the RCFP has never taken a position on
automated enforcement, cameraenforcement.
SPEAKER_01 (21:08):
Publicly, we're not taking a position now.
Uh there are some times with theBC Association of Chiefs of
Police where they'll come outand do some particular advocacy
that where they've all workedtogether.
But certainly as a unit, BCHighway Patrol would not do
something like that.
No.
SPEAKER_00 (21:22):
Are the penalties for dangerous driving?
And I I saw that when you werediscussing the priorities of the
RCNP, the priorities, they wereuh Well, I'll let you say them.
There were three things.
Speed.
SPEAKER_01 (21:37):
So yeah, we we tend to be uh evidence-based,
data-driven.
That's the that's the big thingin BC Highway Patrol these days.
Consistently, the three thingsthat cause the most fatalities
on BC rows are, in no particularorder, speed, distraction, and
impairment.
So those are our priorities whenit comes to enforcement.
(21:59):
Particularly, speed tends to bewrapped up in in almost every
highway collision that we dealwith.
So we do a lot of enforcementaround those because those are
the things that are going tosave the most lives.
Is there room for otherpriorities?
Sure, but those are the thingsthat are going to be at the top
of our list based on thosenumbers.
SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
Totally understandable.
Uh now I want to refer againback to Ontario, where as a
result of a police officer beingkilled by the side of the road
while riding a bicycle, um hiswidow, Eleanor McMahon, who's
been on this podcast, lobbiedfor and achieved something
called Greg's Law, which washeightened penalties for people
(22:40):
driving, particularly whiletheir license was under
suspension, or I assume alsoimpaired, distracted in other
ways.
Do you think that the penaltiesthat we have in BC are
sufficient to get people'sattention and make a difference
in safety for cyclists?
SPEAKER_01 (22:59):
Well, it's a good question.
And it's tough to say.
I think the the real answer isit probably depends on the
person you're you're givingenforcement to.
And we all want to have blanketsolutions because I think
they're easier, but the truth isevery situation is a little bit
different.
And I get to uh read into theweeds of some of the fatal
(23:20):
collisions that you've mentionedearlier involving cyclists, for
instance, in this province thisyear, some of the high-profile
ones.
And every situation isdifferent.
In some cases, cyclists aredoing behavior where they're not
uh they're not helpingthemselves.
In other cases, you're dealingwith motorists who are well
outside the acceptable behavioruh for any any modus.
(23:43):
We're talking like impairment,excessive speed, distraction,
the very things that wementioned earlier, which creates
this incredibly sad outcome whenyou're hitting a vulnerable
cyclist.
But again, as a police officer,I can't advocate, nor can BC
Highway Patrol advocate forparticular penalties.
(24:04):
We're going to work with whatwe've been given.
I can certainly say that in thepast decade, we've seen marked
changes in BC around impaireddriving, where we have immediate
roadside prohibitions that havegiven us more of those tools in
our tool belt, which are veryuseful.
The excessive speeding fines andparticularly the impoundment, um
(24:25):
the impoundment powers havereally dramatically increased
over the past, what is it, fiveyears?
And that really stings.
When you get an excessivespeeding ticket, you're not just
paying the ticket, which isn'taround about$400.
Your car is getting impounded,and you are also facing serious
insurance and um and licensingpremiums that can add up to two
(24:48):
or three thousand dollars veryquickly.
Could there be more?
I mean, I'm a police officer.
I always think there could bemore.
So uh, you know, I I and Iunderstand why people who've
lost loved ones want moreenforcement.
I completely understand.
That's just outside of thepolice purview.
Our job is to enforce the lawthat you, the people, and our
(25:08):
legislatures decide isappropriate.
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
You piqued my interest when you said that you
have the opportunity to delveinto traffic reports on some of
these accidents involvingcyclists.
When the cyclist got killed inthe Pentincton Fonda, which I've
written in a couple of timesmyself, and has now been
canceled.
I'm not sure why, but we'regoing to find out about that in
a future podcast.
Um I was unable to find out whathappened.
(25:33):
Was the driver charged,convicted, fined, penalized in
some way?
Do you happen to know on thatparticular case what happened
and what the outcome was?
SPEAKER_01 (25:45):
I do have some information that I can't share
on that case.
As I understand it, it is anactive investigation.
Now, typically, I won't speak tothat investigation in
particular.
I'm going to pull back becauseit'll be relevant to your
question.
When you're dealing with aserious investigation involving
death and potential criminality,it is usual and expected that an
investigation will take a yearto two years before charges are
(26:09):
recommended or the case isconcluded, depending on what the
evidence shows.
So it's not a surprise from aninvestigator's standpoint that
that hasn't been, it hasn't beenconcluded to this point, or
there haven't been charges laid.
I am hopeful, given theincredible tragedy, that that
they're they that they can makesome good progress and have some
(26:30):
um, let's say, heartening orsupportive news for the families
that are involved.
But it's not my investigation,and it wouldn't be appropriate
for me to share the details thatI do know, other than to say I
have confidence that that is apriority investigation and
they're working hard on it, asthey should be.
SPEAKER_00 (26:47):
So speaking of fondos, one of the issues that
organized rides, cops forcancer, fondos, some celebration
ride around town, typicallyfaces very high policing costs.
And I don't have the data, butI'm gonna guess that they've
been going up and they're andthey're probably not gonna go
down.
Uh, can you offer any comfort orrationale on why policing costs
(27:11):
have to be so high and ifthere's anything race organizers
or ride organizers can do tominimize those costs?
SPEAKER_01 (27:20):
Well, there might be ways to minimize costs around
route planning.
Certainly, the more major routesyou're you're using, the more
routes you're using throughmajor centers and arterial
roads, the higher the cost isgoing to be.
Look, policing's expensive, andI wish it weren't so expensive.
But when you're when you've gotone police officer on the road,
you're looking at two to threehundred thousand dollars a year
(27:42):
to maintain that officer and alltheir equipment and the
administrative costs and theradios, et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera.
It's a very expensive, uh it's avery expensive resource.
Um I think it can be veryeffective.
I think it's necessary in theselarge events.
But I, you know, other thanchanging route planning and
working with the municipalities,I it it that's a tricky one.
(28:03):
How do you reduce those costs?
That's up to greater minds thanme, and it really depends on the
particular event.
SPEAKER_00 (28:09):
What frustrates you most about cyclists who disobey
the law?
Because there's a whole range ofuh complaints we all often hear,
everything from not wearing ahelmet to busting red lights and
stop signs, um, not right notriding with lights.
As a cyclist and a lawenforcement officer, where do
(28:29):
the um where does the bad howdoes the bad behavior look to
you and what should cyclists bedoing better?
SPEAKER_01 (28:36):
So two things really frustrate me.
One is you are misrepresentingevery other cyclist when you're
acting like a jerk, and you'rebuilding rage that sh and you're
building this division betweencar drivers and riders.
It shouldn't be there.
I like to say I'm amotorcyclist, I'm a driver, I'm
a pedestrian, I'm a cyclist, I'mall of those things and none of
those things.
(28:57):
And I think most of us are thatway.
There's there's a blurred line.
So acting like a jerk meansother people are going to assume
that other cyclists are a jerk.
You're also putting yourself atrisk in a battle that you're
going to lose.
As a cyclist, there's a certainreality, much like being on a
motorcycle, you are morevulnerable.
I can tell you a hundred reasonsof why I love cycling, but I
(29:19):
won't deny that it does make youmore vulnerable.
So do the things to makeyourself more safe, your family
more safe, your kids more safe.
And again, try and dial downthat confrontational us versus
them attitude.
We're all sharing the roadstogether, and we all benefit if
everybody can treat each otherwith more respect and with
(29:40):
safety in mind.
Great advice.
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
Would you yesterday I talked to a cyclist who was
telling me about an experiencehe had where he had to go out
and take the lane because therewas no shoulder, and he was
going, he's a very seriouscyclist.
He was going 35k or so.
A car came up beside him, andthe guy rolled down the window
and threw a fully loaded starcup of coffee from Starbucks in
(30:04):
his face.
He was so outraged.
Are you seeing and and perhapsyou could say, well, you know,
he's blocking the route.
What do you expect?
Somebody's gonna get mad.
Are people getting madder now?
Is there more road rage thanthere used to be that again,
cyclists should be aware of?
SPEAKER_01 (30:21):
You know, that's that's a tough question to
answer because really we have togo with anecdotal information.
I would say that as roads getmore crowded, and they certainly
have been, you do see higherinstances of rage and bad
behavior.
There's also a differencebetween saying some bad words at
somebody and throwing somethingat them.
(30:42):
And if somebody throws somethingat you as a cyclist, it's time
to call the police.
Like that's that's beyond uhthat's beyond, you know, road
rage saying nasty things to eachother.
Not that I think it's smart tosay nasty things to each other,
but at the end of the day, youknow, you can walk away and
everybody goes home and can telleach other what a jerk the other
person was and nobody's hurt.
(31:02):
Um but cyclists have to beaware, you know, there there, I
think as you deal with morecongestion, there is more
potential for rage.
And perhaps as a society, wedon't um we don't embrace the
consequences enough, thepotential consequences enough of
that kind of behavior.
And uh it's unfortunate that weare seeing that level of rage.
SPEAKER_00 (31:26):
This is not really fair to pin on you.
It's not fair at all to pin onyou, but I have had an interview
with somebody who was hit by acar and knocked over and had a
bad injury, and was told by thepolice officer, uh, it was a
municipal officer at City ofVancouver, actually, that the
cyclist had no right to be notgetting out of the way,
(31:48):
completely out of the way ofthat car by pulling over into
little individual parking spacesand so on, uh which is contrary
to the law.
Do you think that policeofficers all fully understand
the laws relating to the rightsof cyclists?
And are they educated in someway?
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
Well, there we are educated in some way.
Do we all get it right all thetime?
Frankly, no.
Uh sometimes we don't.
And if we don't, there aremechanisms for complaint.
And I encourage people, if ifthey have been treated poorly,
if you've gotten a you know aninjury like like was described
just now, and you think thepolice officer didn't do their
job, then you should let thatperson's supervisor know.
(32:31):
Follow up with that.
Again, I encourage people to beas measured as possible, to be
as polite as possible, but alsoto be persistent and to let us
know as supervisors, to let ourbosses know if you don't think
we're doing a good job.
We do hold each other toaccount.
Uh, I'm in this job in thisprofession because I really care
(32:53):
passionately about trying to dothe right thing and making my
community safer.
There is nobody more annoyed uhat a police officer acting
poorly than a police officer whoisn't acting poorly.
So follow up.
Um if we get it wrong, then weneed to know and we need to do
better.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
Michael, I'm kind of out of questions.
You've given some pretty goodanswers.
And uh, is there anything elseyou think that cyclists and
cycling advocates and peopleconcerned about these issues
should know that you'd like toshare?
SPEAKER_01 (33:26):
Yes.
So I'd like to talk about thisidea that there's a real divide
between drivers and cyclists.
And I think we need to do ourbest to shrink that divide.
The reality is the majority ofcyclists are drivers too, and
many drivers are also cyclistsor their loved ones cycle.
So when you're cycling, doyourself a favor, be as safe as
(33:48):
you can, be visible, try andobey the rules of the road,
don't be a jerk.
And as a driver, give more roomthan you think you need.
Take a breath.
Imagine that's somebody you knowand like on the bicycle, and try
and give them a bit of grace.
And even if you can be 20%nicer, a 20% better driver, a
20% better cyclist, then that'san improvement.
(34:10):
And I'd love us all to make thateffort.
SPEAKER_00 (34:12):
Great note to end on.
We'll go to work on that,Michael.
Thank you so much.
Michael McLaughlin from the BCHighway Patrol, RCMP.
Thanks so much for talking withus.
My pleasure.
Thank you, Peter.
You've been listening to BikeSince, an original podcast from
(34:33):
the BC Cycling Coalition.
If you like the podcast, we'd begrateful if you could leave us a
rating on whatever platform youuse.
You can also subscribe so youdon't miss future episodes.
If you have comments orsuggestions for future episodes,
email me at peter.ladner atbccycling.ca.
(34:59):
You can help us amplify BCCycling Coalition's voice by
simply becoming a free member atbccycling.ca
Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling
Coalition's podcast, where wetalk about all things related to
active transportation advocacyin BC.
I'm your host, Peter Ladner,Chair of the Board of the BC
Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
(00:50):
Cyclists in BC have beenoutraged and saddened by news of
fellow cyclists being killed bymotorized vehicles in recent
months and years.
One particularly tragic andrecent example was the cyclists
riding in the Pentecton Fondo,who was killed.
There were two cyclists killedin Prince George.
(01:10):
One cyclist killed in PrinceGeorge and two injured during a
training ride for a cops forcancer ride.
And there were other instancesin U Royal, Langford, Nanoose
Bay.
It makes all of us a little bitwary and a little bit angry and
wondering what we can do aboutit.
One response has been topressure the BC government to
(01:31):
pass Bill 24, which they did inJune 2024, which requires cars
to leave a one-meter passingdistance between them and
vulnerable road users, includingcyclists, under 50 kilometers an
hour and 1.5 meters at higherspeeds, which I like to remind
people is the size of a queensize mattress.
(01:51):
But cyclists ask themselves, isthis being enforced?
If it is, uh has anybody evergot a ticket for this?
And if we want to know, how dowe find out?
So I'm here to find out.
And I've invited to join ustoday, Corporal Michael
McLaughlin, who is the mediarelations officer for the BC
(02:13):
Highway Patrol, which is part ofthe RCMP.
And uh he's hopefully gonna giveus some answers.
Welcome, Michael.
Glad to be here, Peter.
First of all, can I call youMichael?
I know your proper title isCorporal McLaughlin.
Um is it okay to call youMichael?
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
Sure.
I think for the purposes of thisconversation, let's get right to
it and go with first names.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Okay.
So let's get right to it.
And I'm gonna start with mystandard question.
I know you're a cyclist.
SPEAKER_01 (02:40):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Could you describe for me your most recent ride?
SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
Ooh, most recent ride.
Well, I'm a club rider, amongother things.
I really like road riding, so Ithink my most recent ride would
probably be that.
Um I tend to go on weekends forthese long 100 to 200 kilometer
road rides where I race myfriends, have some fun that way.
And I'm also a commuter.
Um, so this week I'm a littleunder the weather, but normally
(03:06):
I'm riding once or twice a weekto work as well.
So as much as possible, I'mgetting on two wheels.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
So when you say ride to work, you're riding to the
headquarters in Surrey?
SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
That's right.
Yes.
So I go over a bridge, sometimestwo bridges, depending on the
route that I take and how muchtime that I've got, and of
course the weather.
Sometimes you want to get home alittle more quickly.
Do you feel safe when you'reriding to work?
That's a great question.
And I think the answer is, asI'm going to say often today, it
depends.
Uh, if the weather's great andI've got lots of room and I'm
(03:37):
feeling confident and thetraffic isn't too tied up, I can
feel really confident.
On other days, perhaps as acareless driver or the weather's
poor, I don't feel as confident.
So it really depends for me.
And I try to engineer my ridinga little bit on my level of
confidence for each day.
You know, evaluate each day alittle bit differently because
each day does bring youdifferent conditions.
SPEAKER_00 (04:00):
Have you been passed by cars that are closer than the
safe passing distance?
SPEAKER_01 (04:05):
Oh, of course.
Haven't all cyclists been passedby somebody going too closely.
Heck, I was even hit this yearuh on my on my commute home.
I had a driver not payingattention, looking right instead
of left.
And uh luckily I saw the carcoming and was practicing some
of what I preach here and didn'tuh the collision wasn't too bad.
But sure, yeah, being being tooclose to vehicles is an
(04:27):
omnipresent problem for me too.
Well, let's talk about that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
So you got hit by a car.
Car made contact with you.
Sure did.
Was there a fine levied for thatcar breaking the safe passing
distance rules?
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
So in this case, the car was coming out of a parking
lot and crossing over a bikelane to get into traffic.
And it was one of those paintedbike lanes that are quite common
now in the Metro Vancouver area.
I think they are helpful, butthey can lead to a bit of
complacency from bicycle riders,which we're going to come back
to later.
Luckily, perhaps because of myjob and I'm well aware of the
(05:04):
risks, I'm constantly lookingout for problems.
So as this person came out ofthe parking lot and blew through
the lane, I slowed down enoughso that the collision was minor
and actually hit the side of hiscar.
So, yes, that would still havebeen a violation.
It would have been afail-to-yield violation.
In this case, I wasn't hurt.
Uh, we talked, we exchangedinformation, and my bike was
(05:27):
okay, so I chose not to pursue aclaim or any charges, and we
just went about our way.
Did you get mad?
Uh yeah, I think it's fair tosay I got mad in the moment.
Um, fortunately, I controlled mytongue to a point.
Um I don't think getting angryis is going to be useful in that
situation, although I certainlyfelt that emotion.
(05:48):
But yeah, I mean, I'm human.
Uh, I don't I don't like gettinghit by a car any more than the
next person.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
Well, it sounds like your case may have been one of
those it depends issues becausethe car was coming out from the
side, not just going parallelwith you.
But uh let's say it was goingparallel with you.
Um is this first my firstquestion is really, is this
legislation even enforceable?
Like how would you enforce, howwould you know or measure or
(06:16):
prove that somebody was tooclose within that forbidden
distance?
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
You're asking a really important question.
And a lot of people get upsetwhen uh laws aren't enforced as
much as they would like.
But the trick with the minimumpassing distance law is you must
prove beyond a reasonable doubtthat the person was within that
minimum passing distance.
One of the great tools that BCHighway Patrol has now is in all
(06:43):
of our vehicles, we have dashcamera mounted video.
And as each officer movestowards having body camera, that
also gives us a new level ofevidence.
The trick is you're probablygoing to have to have video
evidence or something similar toprove that minimum passing
distance.
So this is never a law that Iwould expect is going to get
(07:05):
enforced in enormous numbers.
Unfortunately, it might getenforced more after the fact
when a collision has occurred.
It does give police that extratool if a cyclist hasn't been
seriously hurt, for instance.
Uh the fact that you madecontact with a cyclist is pretty
clear evidence that you areviolating that law, so a driver
(07:28):
can get a ticket that way.
It is nice as a police officerand as a traffic enforcement
officer to have that extra toolin your tool belt.
Again, I caution people, I don'tthink we're ever going to see
enormous numbers, but this isprogress in terms of
legislation.
Also don't forget, most driversare really trying to do the
right thing.
They're trying to obey the law.
(07:49):
And when you codify thesethings, when you tell people,
look, 1.5 meters is as close asyou want to be, and it's the
size of a queen-sized mattress,then most people will try to
follow that law.
So hopefully we, as the as ourculture improves with cycling
and driving, we get more andmore safer and respectful of
(08:09):
these different road users.
SPEAKER_00 (08:11):
Well, let's talk about that.
We are both of us assuming thatdrivers know about this, but I
would say it's a safe assumptionthat they have no idea.
Do you have any suggestions asto how we could ensure that they
at least know about the safepassing, the minimum passing
distance?
SPEAKER_01 (08:29):
Education is always a really important part of any
law.
And you're you're right.
Most people probably don't knowthat there is a law one to 1.5
meters.
But slowly over time, we have toeducate people.
With education comesenforcement, because no matter
how much education you do, therewill always be some people who
(08:50):
are scofflaws.
They don't care what thelegislation says or they think
it doesn't apply to them.
This is very common when you'restopping people for traffic
tickets.
They will give you an excusethat rhymes with, well, I'm
special.
I don't need to follow thedistracted driving laws in
particular, I don't need tofollow the speed limit because
I'm a good driver and I have agreat car, this kind of thing.
(09:11):
So yeah, education's alwaysgoing to be a piece.
I think one of the key things toremember, particularly in these
polarized times, is gettingangry and finger wagging is
probably not the optimal way toconvince people to change their
behavior.
I'm very conscious of that as apolice officer.
I try to use humor in discussingthese things, but talk about it,
(09:34):
talk about it a lot.
Uh, Hub and the other cyclingadvocacy groups out there need
to bring it up regularly in away that is really meant to
share the information, I think,rather than force it down
people's throats.
And over time, and it will taketime, people will get better and
better and more and moreknowledgeable.
Another key component iseducating the youth as they're
(09:55):
first getting into driving.
Include bicycle awareness andvulnerable road user awareness
in that uh that curriculum fordriving schools.
Make sure there's a componentwhere they understand what the
rules and laws are.
Is that there now?
I don't know.
I'd have to talk to, and you'dhave to talk to private
companies who are actuallydelivering this because it's
(10:15):
it's not a government-runprogram in terms of uh driver
education.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
Aaron Powell Doesn't ICBC have a standard curriculum
that the private driving schoolshave to adhere to or live up to?
SPEAKER_01 (10:26):
So as I understand it, there is standard um metrics
that must be met, but these arereally leading more into the
driving test component.
You know, you must meet XYZbehavior.
And it's not so much um it's notso much telling people how they
have to instill that behavior.
Which is why when you'reselecting a driving school,
(10:47):
parents, I would say be veryselective.
Don't go for the cheapestversion, go for a version that
is established and that has uhthat really takes their job
seriously and is not just tryingto educate people to pass the
test, the the road tests.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
Well, I think you, in some previous correspondence
we had suggested ICBC could getinvolved.
Does ICBC have a role in this?
SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
ICBC certainly has a role.
There's also an organization,Road Safe BC, where they do a
lot of education on road safety.
We work with them a bunch aswell.
And I see it on their on theirsocial media platforms.
They are putting these sorts ofmessages out.
And with any sort of message onsocial media or any and anywhere
else, you need to repeat it overand over for it to sink into
(11:35):
people.
One recent thing we've done,unrelated to cycling in
particular, but we can we canget back to this and for
vulnerable road users as well,is there was a law passed in
2018 called mandatory alcoholscreening, where police no
longer need reasonable andprobable grounds, or pardon me,
reasonable suspicion to believethat somebody has consumed
(11:56):
alcohol to administer a roadsidebreath test.
So this has been going on forseven years, and the vast
majority of drivers still don'tknow about it.
So we've actually relaunched acampaign this year to educate
people on mandatory screening,and I must have put it in four
or five different news releasesand done a dozen interviews, and
even professional journalistsdon't realize this law is there.
(12:19):
So it just tells you anytimeyou're trying to educate people
on a relatively new law, likethe vulnerable road users law,
which is only a year old, it'sgoing to take some time and a
lot of repetition and effort andpatience.
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
And money.
Because in Ontario, the Sharethe Road Coalition has launched
a very big ad campaign with TVvideos and all that to make to
bring this uh point across.
But another idea that's been putforward, which I'd love to hear
your thoughts on, are is tochange the road signs that say
share the road, and they have apicture of a car and a bicycle,
(12:51):
and insert in between them 1.5meters and two little arrows
pointing at each at each of thetwo parties.
And that would be a constantreminder, like a little mini
billboard that the drivers areseeing all the time, over and
over, at no real significantcost, and you don't have to pay
for media and TV ads orwhatever.
(13:12):
Is that something that you wouldsupport or you think would be
useful?
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
Well, anecdotally, do I think that'd be useful?
Sure.
I I think there's anytime you'redealing with changes like this,
it's got to be a multi-prongedapproach.
And you've got to bring increative ideas.
I like the idea of road signs.
Now, one thing I have observedfrom talking to many, many
people at the side of a road isdrivers don't absorb every road
(13:37):
sign they see, to say the least.
And the more complicated youmake a sign, the less likely
they are to understand it.
But could that be a component?
Could you put it in some or onmore signs?
I think that's a great idea.
You know, once uh once you lookat the cost, it sounds to me
like it could be a fairly lowcost, um, effective, and again,
not preachy way to get thismessage across.
(13:59):
So just as we're talking here,seems like a great idea.
Let's let's see if uh let's runit at the flagpole and see what
happens.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Would you support us if we went to somebody and asked
to have that to make thathappen?
SPEAKER_01 (14:10):
Officially, as a member of the ERCMP, I don't
advocate, so I couldn't Icouldn't go that far.
But as a cyclist, would I liketo see creative ideas like that?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
So we don't have any data, I gather, on uh say
passing distance enforcement.
Um, we don't know.
Uh is there a way that cyclingadvocates and and uh safety
advocates in differentcommunities around BC could get
that data or work with theirlocal law enforcement agency, in
many cases the RCMP, to educatedrivers more or enforce it more?
(15:02):
What could we be doing?
SPEAKER_01 (15:04):
So yes, there I think there's different things
we could be component doing.
When it comes to the statisticsside of things, ICBC is the best
organization in BC.
As police, we tend to use acouple of different databases,
primarily the Prime database,also a database called TISMIT,
where we collect enforcement andticket data respectively.
(15:25):
But it gets really complicated.
Our databases aren't set up forgathering province-wide
statistics.
They're really set up more fordetachments, individual areas,
individual units to track uh totrack enforcement for court
purposes, first of all, and thensecondly for the priorities of
that community unit ordetachment.
(15:46):
So that's one of the reasons ittakes ICBC quite a long time,
typically a year, to vet all theinformation, put it all
together, crunch the numbersout, make sure they're they're
accurate.
So certainly approaching ICBCabout that is one thing for
advocates that they make oneavenue advocates may consider
taking.
In terms of local detachmentsand units, absolutely, there's
(16:07):
no reason a local cyclingcommunity organization can't
approach their local detachment,can't approach their local BC
Highway Patrol station and askabout doing something
cooperative.
There are people like me whosejob it is to do public
relations, to do that outreachto the community.
And really, my job in somerespects is no different from
(16:30):
any other police officer on theroad.
Public safety number one,protect life and limb number
one.
And if cycling advocates cancome with that goal in mind and
show that, hey, you know, we'redoing this to protect not only
current road users, but the nextgeneration of cyclists coming
up, I think that there could bea real appetite for that.
Even approaching like communityliaison officers working in
(16:52):
schools might be a way of doingit.
So there are many differentavenues that we could take that
maybe don't cost as much money.
And I encourage you to getcreative and get local when
you're when you're trying to getthese messages out.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
I want to do a little sidebar here on you
mentioned the BC Highway PatrolOffice and the RCMP as though
they may be different.
Can you just explain thedifference between the two?
SPEAKER_01 (17:18):
Well, BC Highway Patrol is essentially a part of
the RCMP, but what we do that'sdifferent, though we have when
you when you see an RCMP officerin uniform, they're what we call
a contract police officer.
That means we're part of theprovincial police.
We're doing uh enforcement inCoquitlam, Ashcroft, communities
on Vancouver Island and aroundthe province.
(17:40):
BC Highway Patrol doesn't have adetachment where it's answering
911 calls like those, like aplace like Coquitlam.
What we're doing typically isfocused on numbered highways, so
major arterial highways in theprovince, and we are doing
mostly enforcement, plus, wehave a mandate to do serious
(18:01):
collisions involving fatalitiesand suspected criminality, where
we're the primary investigatingagency.
So it's not as easy to walk upto a BC Highway Patrol office
and propose something simplybecause we don't have a front
counter where people approachand do a criminal records check
and make a complaint, et cetera,et cetera.
That tends to be a detachment.
But we work hand in glove withour RCMP uh compatriots around
(18:25):
the province.
We have the same powers ofarrest, the same powers of
investigation, and our primarygoals, which is public safety
and enforcing the law, areexactly the same.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
So you would advise if people wanted to talk to the
BC Highway Patrol, if you go toyour local RCMP, they that's the
conduit to the highway patrol.
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
Yeah, that's a great place to start.
Um you can also do a good oldinternet search and come up with
a BC Highway Patrol uh contacton the internet.
It'll probably end up in myinbox, actually.
And I'll if I can't answer yourquestion, I I know somebody who
will.
So yeah, we we've beenapproached by people in the
community many times.
I get multiple emails um everyweek and sometimes every day
(19:07):
from interested members of thepublic.
We try and answer everybody'squestions.
We try and the you know the thebest service we can with the
resources that we have.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
Um You may I'm not gonna ask you, put you on the
spot and ask you your thoughtson the BC government's uh
pausing/slash canceling of theiractive transportation grants to
communities to make roads safer,a mere one less than one percent
of their budget.
Um but one of the proposals thatwe've come up with is that uh,
because of course they have todeal with financial pressures
(19:40):
that are pretty extreme rightnow, um, to step up automated
enforcement and use thoserevenues to pay for design
improvements and bike routes andso on.
What are your thoughts onautomated enforcement uh red
light cameras and or speedenforcement that doesn't require
(20:00):
extra police personnel, in fact,could save money on police
personnel and be effective,fair, and of course revenue
generating, which I knowsometimes triggers people, but
still if they voluntarily breakthe law, they should be okay
with paying a fine.
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
Yeah, that's a that's a serious and important
conversation to have.
Uh, as a police officer, I can'tadvocate one way or the other.
Um I think these are worthyconversations.
We have to figure out um thatright balance between giving up
some of the perceived liberty onroads so that we are safer and
that we have resources to applyto whatever priorities that we
(20:41):
want to.
As a police officer and as BCHighway Patrol, we're going to
enforce the laws that are outthere.
We're going to work with theresources you you give us as a
government and as taxpayers.
While we can't advocate, we doencourage creative ideas.
You know, come up, come up withwhatever you think is useful and
we'll make it work when you tellus what that is.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
So the RCFP has never taken a position on
automated enforcement, cameraenforcement.
SPEAKER_01 (21:08):
Publicly, we're not taking a position now.
Uh there are some times with theBC Association of Chiefs of
Police where they'll come outand do some particular advocacy
that where they've all workedtogether.
But certainly as a unit, BCHighway Patrol would not do
something like that.
No.
SPEAKER_00 (21:22):
Are the penalties for dangerous driving?
And I I saw that when you werediscussing the priorities of the
RCNP, the priorities, they wereuh Well, I'll let you say them.
There were three things.
Speed.
SPEAKER_01 (21:37):
So yeah, we we tend to be uh evidence-based,
data-driven.
That's the that's the big thingin BC Highway Patrol these days.
Consistently, the three thingsthat cause the most fatalities
on BC rows are, in no particularorder, speed, distraction, and
impairment.
So those are our priorities whenit comes to enforcement.
(21:59):
Particularly, speed tends to bewrapped up in in almost every
highway collision that we dealwith.
So we do a lot of enforcementaround those because those are
the things that are going tosave the most lives.
Is there room for otherpriorities?
Sure, but those are the thingsthat are going to be at the top
of our list based on thosenumbers.
SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
Totally understandable.
Uh now I want to refer againback to Ontario, where as a
result of a police officer beingkilled by the side of the road
while riding a bicycle, um hiswidow, Eleanor McMahon, who's
been on this podcast, lobbiedfor and achieved something
called Greg's Law, which washeightened penalties for people
(22:40):
driving, particularly whiletheir license was under
suspension, or I assume alsoimpaired, distracted in other
ways.
Do you think that the penaltiesthat we have in BC are
sufficient to get people'sattention and make a difference
in safety for cyclists?
SPEAKER_01 (22:59):
Well, it's a good question.
And it's tough to say.
I think the the real answer isit probably depends on the
person you're you're givingenforcement to.
And we all want to have blanketsolutions because I think
they're easier, but the truth isevery situation is a little bit
different.
And I get to uh read into theweeds of some of the fatal
(23:20):
collisions that you've mentionedearlier involving cyclists, for
instance, in this province thisyear, some of the high-profile
ones.
And every situation isdifferent.
In some cases, cyclists aredoing behavior where they're not
uh they're not helpingthemselves.
In other cases, you're dealingwith motorists who are well
outside the acceptable behavioruh for any any modus.
(23:43):
We're talking like impairment,excessive speed, distraction,
the very things that wementioned earlier, which creates
this incredibly sad outcome whenyou're hitting a vulnerable
cyclist.
But again, as a police officer,I can't advocate, nor can BC
Highway Patrol advocate forparticular penalties.
(24:04):
We're going to work with whatwe've been given.
I can certainly say that in thepast decade, we've seen marked
changes in BC around impaireddriving, where we have immediate
roadside prohibitions that havegiven us more of those tools in
our tool belt, which are veryuseful.
The excessive speeding fines andparticularly the impoundment, um
(24:25):
the impoundment powers havereally dramatically increased
over the past, what is it, fiveyears?
And that really stings.
When you get an excessivespeeding ticket, you're not just
paying the ticket, which isn'taround about$400.
Your car is getting impounded,and you are also facing serious
insurance and um and licensingpremiums that can add up to two
(24:48):
or three thousand dollars veryquickly.
Could there be more?
I mean, I'm a police officer.
I always think there could bemore.
So uh, you know, I I and Iunderstand why people who've
lost loved ones want moreenforcement.
I completely understand.
That's just outside of thepolice purview.
Our job is to enforce the lawthat you, the people, and our
(25:08):
legislatures decide isappropriate.
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
You piqued my interest when you said that you
have the opportunity to delveinto traffic reports on some of
these accidents involvingcyclists.
When the cyclist got killed inthe Pentincton Fonda, which I've
written in a couple of timesmyself, and has now been
canceled.
I'm not sure why, but we'regoing to find out about that in
a future podcast.
Um I was unable to find out whathappened.
(25:33):
Was the driver charged,convicted, fined, penalized in
some way?
Do you happen to know on thatparticular case what happened
and what the outcome was?
SPEAKER_01 (25:45):
I do have some information that I can't share
on that case.
As I understand it, it is anactive investigation.
Now, typically, I won't speak tothat investigation in
particular.
I'm going to pull back becauseit'll be relevant to your
question.
When you're dealing with aserious investigation involving
death and potential criminality,it is usual and expected that an
investigation will take a yearto two years before charges are
(26:09):
recommended or the case isconcluded, depending on what the
evidence shows.
So it's not a surprise from aninvestigator's standpoint that
that hasn't been, it hasn't beenconcluded to this point, or
there haven't been charges laid.
I am hopeful, given theincredible tragedy, that that
they're they that they can makesome good progress and have some
(26:30):
um, let's say, heartening orsupportive news for the families
that are involved.
But it's not my investigation,and it wouldn't be appropriate
for me to share the details thatI do know, other than to say I
have confidence that that is apriority investigation and
they're working hard on it, asthey should be.
SPEAKER_00 (26:47):
So speaking of fondos, one of the issues that
organized rides, cops forcancer, fondos, some celebration
ride around town, typicallyfaces very high policing costs.
And I don't have the data, butI'm gonna guess that they've
been going up and they're andthey're probably not gonna go
down.
Uh, can you offer any comfort orrationale on why policing costs
(27:11):
have to be so high and ifthere's anything race organizers
or ride organizers can do tominimize those costs?
SPEAKER_01 (27:20):
Well, there might be ways to minimize costs around
route planning.
Certainly, the more major routesyou're you're using, the more
routes you're using throughmajor centers and arterial
roads, the higher the cost isgoing to be.
Look, policing's expensive, andI wish it weren't so expensive.
But when you're when you've gotone police officer on the road,
you're looking at two to threehundred thousand dollars a year
(27:42):
to maintain that officer and alltheir equipment and the
administrative costs and theradios, et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera.
It's a very expensive, uh it's avery expensive resource.
Um I think it can be veryeffective.
I think it's necessary in theselarge events.
But I, you know, other thanchanging route planning and
working with the municipalities,I it it that's a tricky one.
(28:03):
How do you reduce those costs?
That's up to greater minds thanme, and it really depends on the
particular event.
SPEAKER_00 (28:09):
What frustrates you most about cyclists who disobey
the law?
Because there's a whole range ofuh complaints we all often hear,
everything from not wearing ahelmet to busting red lights and
stop signs, um, not right notriding with lights.
As a cyclist and a lawenforcement officer, where do
(28:29):
the um where does the bad howdoes the bad behavior look to
you and what should cyclists bedoing better?
SPEAKER_01 (28:36):
So two things really frustrate me.
One is you are misrepresentingevery other cyclist when you're
acting like a jerk, and you'rebuilding rage that sh and you're
building this division betweencar drivers and riders.
It shouldn't be there.
I like to say I'm amotorcyclist, I'm a driver, I'm
a pedestrian, I'm a cyclist, I'mall of those things and none of
those things.
(28:57):
And I think most of us are thatway.
There's there's a blurred line.
So acting like a jerk meansother people are going to assume
that other cyclists are a jerk.
You're also putting yourself atrisk in a battle that you're
going to lose.
As a cyclist, there's a certainreality, much like being on a
motorcycle, you are morevulnerable.
I can tell you a hundred reasonsof why I love cycling, but I
(29:19):
won't deny that it does make youmore vulnerable.
So do the things to makeyourself more safe, your family
more safe, your kids more safe.
And again, try and dial downthat confrontational us versus
them attitude.
We're all sharing the roadstogether, and we all benefit if
everybody can treat each otherwith more respect and with
(29:40):
safety in mind.
Great advice.
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
Would you yesterday I talked to a cyclist who was
telling me about an experiencehe had where he had to go out
and take the lane because therewas no shoulder, and he was
going, he's a very seriouscyclist.
He was going 35k or so.
A car came up beside him, andthe guy rolled down the window
and threw a fully loaded starcup of coffee from Starbucks in
(30:04):
his face.
He was so outraged.
Are you seeing and and perhapsyou could say, well, you know,
he's blocking the route.
What do you expect?
Somebody's gonna get mad.
Are people getting madder now?
Is there more road rage thanthere used to be that again,
cyclists should be aware of?
SPEAKER_01 (30:21):
You know, that's that's a tough question to
answer because really we have togo with anecdotal information.
I would say that as roads getmore crowded, and they certainly
have been, you do see higherinstances of rage and bad
behavior.
There's also a differencebetween saying some bad words at
somebody and throwing somethingat them.
(30:42):
And if somebody throws somethingat you as a cyclist, it's time
to call the police.
Like that's that's beyond uhthat's beyond, you know, road
rage saying nasty things to eachother.
Not that I think it's smart tosay nasty things to each other,
but at the end of the day, youknow, you can walk away and
everybody goes home and can telleach other what a jerk the other
person was and nobody's hurt.
(31:02):
Um but cyclists have to beaware, you know, there there, I
think as you deal with morecongestion, there is more
potential for rage.
And perhaps as a society, wedon't um we don't embrace the
consequences enough, thepotential consequences enough of
that kind of behavior.
And uh it's unfortunate that weare seeing that level of rage.
SPEAKER_00 (31:26):
This is not really fair to pin on you.
It's not fair at all to pin onyou, but I have had an interview
with somebody who was hit by acar and knocked over and had a
bad injury, and was told by thepolice officer, uh, it was a
municipal officer at City ofVancouver, actually, that the
cyclist had no right to be notgetting out of the way,
(31:48):
completely out of the way ofthat car by pulling over into
little individual parking spacesand so on, uh which is contrary
to the law.
Do you think that policeofficers all fully understand
the laws relating to the rightsof cyclists?
And are they educated in someway?
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
Well, there we are educated in some way.
Do we all get it right all thetime?
Frankly, no.
Uh sometimes we don't.
And if we don't, there aremechanisms for complaint.
And I encourage people, if ifthey have been treated poorly,
if you've gotten a you know aninjury like like was described
just now, and you think thepolice officer didn't do their
job, then you should let thatperson's supervisor know.
(32:31):
Follow up with that.
Again, I encourage people to beas measured as possible, to be
as polite as possible, but alsoto be persistent and to let us
know as supervisors, to let ourbosses know if you don't think
we're doing a good job.
We do hold each other toaccount.
Uh, I'm in this job in thisprofession because I really care
(32:53):
passionately about trying to dothe right thing and making my
community safer.
There is nobody more annoyed uhat a police officer acting
poorly than a police officer whoisn't acting poorly.
So follow up.
Um if we get it wrong, then weneed to know and we need to do
better.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
Michael, I'm kind of out of questions.
You've given some pretty goodanswers.
And uh, is there anything elseyou think that cyclists and
cycling advocates and peopleconcerned about these issues
should know that you'd like toshare?
SPEAKER_01 (33:26):
Yes.
So I'd like to talk about thisidea that there's a real divide
between drivers and cyclists.
And I think we need to do ourbest to shrink that divide.
The reality is the majority ofcyclists are drivers too, and
many drivers are also cyclistsor their loved ones cycle.
So when you're cycling, doyourself a favor, be as safe as
(33:48):
you can, be visible, try andobey the rules of the road,
don't be a jerk.
And as a driver, give more roomthan you think you need.
Take a breath.
Imagine that's somebody you knowand like on the bicycle, and try
and give them a bit of grace.
And even if you can be 20%nicer, a 20% better driver, a
20% better cyclist, then that'san improvement.
(34:10):
And I'd love us all to make thateffort.
SPEAKER_00 (34:12):
Great note to end on.
We'll go to work on that,Michael.
Thank you so much.
Michael McLaughlin from the BCHighway Patrol, RCMP.
Thanks so much for talking withus.
My pleasure.
Thank you, Peter.
You've been listening to BikeSince, an original podcast from
(34:33):
the BC Cycling Coalition.
If you like the podcast, we'd begrateful if you could leave us a
rating on whatever platform youuse.
You can also subscribe so youdon't miss future episodes.
If you have comments orsuggestions for future episodes,
email me at peter.ladner atbccycling.ca.
(34:59):
You can help us amplify BCCycling Coalition's voice by
simply becoming a free member atbccycling.ca
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