July 2, 2025 • 29 mins
Is it all over for trains on the abandoned E&N Rail line stretching 289 kilometres along Vancouver Island?
Alastair Craighead, Chair of Friends of Rails to Trails Vancouver Island, thinks so, and is one of many people working with regional districts, municipalities, businesses and land-owning First Nations to convert these derelict tracks into a world-class trail network.
Peter Ladner talks with him about the millions of dollars already invested in planning this cycle route, and what has to happen to complete it.
Check out Friends of Rails to Trains Vancouver Island HERE and be sure to watch their delightful video.
For another view on the corridor's future, see https://www.islandrail.ca/.
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The Bike Sense podcast with Peter Ladner is produced by the BC Cycling Coalition – your voice for safer and more accessible cycling and active transportation in British Columbia.
Got feedback or ideas for future episodes? Please drop us an email at admin@bccycling.ca.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Bike Sense , the BC Cycling Coalition's
podcast, where we talk about allthings related to active
transportation advocacy in BC.
I'm your host, peter Ladner,chair of the Board of the BC
Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
All over BC, cyclists andtourism promoters are
(00:40):
justifiably excited aboutconverting abandoned rails to
trails, and they have been doingthis for decades.
There have been some notablesuccesses the Kettle Valley
Railway, even the ArbutusGreenway in Vancouver.
But maybe the biggest dream isthe 289-kilometer E&N Rail line
on Vancouver Island, stretchingfrom Courtney to Victoria.
My guest today is one of thechampions of this conversion of
(01:02):
that rail line into trailsAlistair Craighead.
He's the chair of the Friendsof this conversion of that rail
line into trails, alistairCraighead.
He's the chair of the Friendsof Rail Trail Vancouver Island.
Welcome, alistair.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Good afternoon, Peter .
It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Alistair, you're based in Victoria and you have
some history already withconverting rails to trails in
Victoria.
How did you get involved inthat and tell us what that was
about?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
We got involved in about 1987.
We decided that another unusedrailway that runs from Victoria
through to Sooke and also out toSaanich.
We saw the real potential fordoing something there that would
connect all of the communitiesas the railway once did,
something there that wouldconnect all of the communities
as the railway once did.
(01:46):
And so what we did?
To begin with, we started theGreater Victoria Cycling
Coalition and the first projectof the Cycling Coalition was to
get that conversion started.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
And it's been a remarkable success.
As far as I can tell, and Iguess what happened there has
whetted your appetite for thismuch bigger project, and I
wonder if you could justdescribe in your dreams if all
your dreams came true, whatwould it look like?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well, in actual fact, I'd say the Galloping Goose
really is a model, because it'san active transportation
corridor that's used for manythings.
It's used for people commuting,it's used for recreation, it's
used for many things.
It's used for people commuting,it's used for recreation, it's
used for anybody who wants toget out and get away from cars,
really.
So to see that extended upisland, and it would be an
extension, because if we extendthat up island, that will
(02:37):
connect not just the island butthrough ferries, it would
provide a circle route whichwould go all the way around.
So you'd come in at Swarch Bay,you'd go on the Galloping Goose
, you'd go from the GallopingGoose to the Island Corridor
Trail, you'd go up there toComox, from Comox across to
(02:58):
Powell River, down through theSunshine Coast and back into
Vancouver.
So that, in fact, is the realdream.
It could be part of a wholecircle route.
That would be absolutelyamazing for tourism, nothing
like anywhere else.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Now you're talking about tourism and our new board
member, colleen MacDonald, whowrote let's Go Biking, has made
a comparison between BC and NewZealand in about comparable
population sizes and they havesomething like a $1 billion plus
cycle tourism industry.
Has there been tourism interestin the Galloping Goose Trail?
(03:35):
Do you have any data thatpeople coming to Victoria to do
that trail?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Well, we're interested in two ways.
From tourism there's anorganization on the island
called 4VI or 4TVI.
Now that's the old tourismVancouver Island organization
that was started to promotetourism.
But the other element is wehave also in our feasibility
(04:09):
study some numbers there.
We're talking in the millionshere about how much economic
impact it would have.
Probably something like 100million a year it would build to
that.
And that's not just an estimate.
That's looking at another trailin the?
U, the US, which is verysimilar in demographics and in
fact on that trail it's not justan economic impact, it's a
(04:31):
creator of business.
On the Gap Trail about 40% ofthe businesses on that corridor
corridor's called the GreatAllegheny Passage.
40% of the businesses on thatcorridor owe their existence to
that trail.
So that's the kind of impact itcan have.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Okay, let's get into it.
This project has been underway,or talked about, for many years
, but you're not the onlyorganization that has designs on
this rail corridor.
On this rail corridor, theIsland Corridor Foundation seems
to be promoting more of a mixeduse of rail perhaps a little
(05:11):
bit of freight, perhaps somecommuting on the tracks, and
you're saying that you think itshould be no tracks, all biking
and hiking.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
reconciling those two Biking, hiking and active
transportation generally.
It's not so much areconciliation, it's actually an
either, or there is actuallytrail already developed in the
capital region beside the rails.
The rails in the capital regionare not used and they won't be
used.
There's a study showing thatthat's not where LRT will
eventually go in the capitalcity.
It will go on the corridorwhere the highway is, so it
(05:44):
won't be used.
There's a study showing thatthat's not where LRT will
eventually go in the capitalcity.
It will go on the corridorwhere the highway is, so it
won't be used.
Anyway, there was a lot of moneyspent $2 million a kilometer to
start the last kilometer builtbeside the rails $3.4 million
for that kilometer.
That's clearly not feasible todo that all the way up island
not feasible to do that all theway up island.
On the other hand, we knowthere's no funding for rail.
(06:06):
We have a good relationshipwith the ICS.
We're quite cordial in ourrelationship.
We just disagree in what thefuture is, and part of the
reason for that is the ICF hasin their purposes that a
charitable organisation is tosupport rail.
So their purposes have to bechanged in order to get it to
happen.
Five First Nations tried to dothat a couple of years ago and
(06:31):
they ended up leaving the ICFbecause the ICF wouldn't change.
So that motion is still thereon the books, it just hasn't
been dealt with.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Just to be clear, ICF is the Island Corridor
Foundation.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Island Corridor Foundation.
It's a federal charitableorganization.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Now this route would have to go through many
jurisdictions.
You've got 13 municipalities,five regional districts and
anywhere from several to 14First Nations, depending on land
claims.
I guess Now in my earlierdiscussion with you you said
(07:08):
getting the agreement of theFirst Nations is critical to
this path going through.
Can you elaborate a little biton that and what's happened in
that regard so far?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Well, the corridor actually runs through First
Nations reserves.
The original corridor.
The land was basically takenaway from the First Nations
reserves.
The original corridor the landwas basically taken away from
the First Nations.
So, to cut a long story shortagain, they went to court.
They got their land back.
One of them has actually liftedthe rails from the corridor
through their First Nationreserve and put a trail in place
.
So that's kind of the directionwe see most of the First
(07:41):
Nations that are actually on thecorridor going.
There's a number of other FirstNations that may not be so keen.
But going back to the whole,reasoning behind doing an
alternative is that rail issimply not viable.
I'd love to be able to step ona train in Victoria and go to
Comox.
Nothing, I'd like better.
It's not going to happen.
Federal and provincialgovernment have made it very
(08:03):
clear over the past 10, 15 yearsthat there's no funding for
rail and I know that the ICF wastold that again very, very
recently.
There's no money coming forrail, so the corridor is a
default solution.
It's likely to happen sooner orlater.
One thing everybody agrees on,including the ICF and us and
(08:23):
this is one of the reasons we'reable to talk is that the
corridor is a very valuabletransportation asset.
It would be a shame to see itgo.
So when everybody's agreed onthat and we know that rail is
not viable, we're the defaultsolution.
So it gives us a littleoptimism.
It may take a while.
Galloping Goose took about 15years to get built out and you
(08:46):
know all the regional districts.
Yes, there's five, but theCapital Regional District is the
manager for the Galloping GooseTrail.
They lease it from theprovincial government.
I've absolutely no doubt thatthat model would work for the
whole island.
It's very well managed by theregional districts a good
management model.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And it's not for lack of study that this project
hasn't advanced.
I see that the provincialgovernment, the Ministry of
Transportation nowTransportation and Transit gave
$600,000 to each of thejurisdictions at First Nations
along the route to do consultantstudies and so on.
So there must be.
What was the result of allthose studies?
Did that bring you any closerto agreement?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I don't know how quiet to put this.
It's a little bit of apolitical football, because a
decision has to be made and thewhole idea that the government
would do this study came from acourt a potential court decision
that was going to give the landback to the First Nations and
basically say that's the end ofrail in the corridor if you
(09:54):
don't put the money up rightaway to do it.
So the government knows it's awaste of time to try and put
money into rail, so they don'twant to put the money there, so
they start the project.
It's been renewed three times.
It started off as 18 months.
We're over two years now andit's got another six months to
run.
So we're not too sure.
That's necessarily where theanswer is going to come from.
(10:15):
But there is to some extent adeferment by the regions to the
First Nations.
There's one First Nation,that's Nenonoas, north of
Nanaimo, who are doing a studyoff the whole corridor using the
funding that you mentionedearlier, peter, and we're very
optimistic that that will be thebest of the studies that will
be done.
We've seen one completed andyou know, one of the first
(10:39):
things the study says is we'renot going to make a decision on
what we think would be best forthe corridor.
Well, enough said.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
So this is 289 kilometers and I know there are
offshoots to Port Alberni andLake Cowichan that are all part
of the plan but, as you said, itwas 15 years just to get the
galloping goose going.
Clearly it's not all going tohappen overnight.
Are there some sections thatwould work short of the whole
thing?
(11:15):
That would be incrementalimprovements that are reasonably
doable early on, given thatyour studies show that the cost
of this is around $600,000 perkilometer.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
That's right.
That cost is about the same asthe North Okanagan Trail.
It was started by a FirstNation who got a $12 million
Splats and First Nation.
They got a grant from theFederal Active Transportation
Fund.
Comox is probably the least ofa political football, partly
(11:55):
because the rails have alreadybeen lifted there by a First
Nation that's just known asFirst Nation.
So the rails are up there fortwo kilometers.
You're not going to build arailway somewhere else to make
up the two kilometers.
So we're kind of optimistic.
And the other thing is that theTrans-Canada Trail has given us
a letter of support for thatsection.
They're supporting that, thatsection go to trail and they've
got a fair bit of influence.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So that would become part of the Trans-Canada Trail.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
That would become part of the Trans-Canada Trail
Now the Trans-Canada Trail southof that on the island, a large
part of it's on an old loggingroad called the Niagara Main.
It is not a pleasant bike ride.
It's better than nothing.
But if we see that Nanaimosection go to the Trans-Canada
Trail, I think that wouldprobably drive the process
(12:41):
further south as well.
That's only one scenario, butthat's a possibility.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Well, if the Nanaimo to Comox one were done, you
would have another circle routeto Powell River, to Comox,
nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay.
Indeed, you would, yes, youwould have another circle route
to Powell River, to Comox,nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Indeed, you would.
Yes, you're absolutely right,that would be a shorter circle,
but that potential is there allthe time too, and it's one of
the keys.
I mean, we're seeing car-freeferries, if you like to call
them that, beginning to operateout of Nanaimo and are very
successful, so we may see moreof that from other parts of the
island too.
It's getting very, veryexpensive to go to Vancouver in
(13:19):
a car from the island, so Ithink the potential for these
ferries that would carrypassengers and bikes as well is
very good.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Well, I know just a side note on that that the BC
Cycling Coalition and HubCycling are both working with
and pushing the ferries to bemore cycle friendly.
Yes, so who else is involved?
We've mentioned governments andyour organization, but are
there businesses like TourismVictoria I don't even know if
(13:47):
there is such a thing orDestination BC, or the Ministry
of Tourism?
Are there others who share yourexcitement about the tourism
potential, who are willing tosupport it both politically and
financially?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yes, indeed, the organization that I mentioned
earlier.
They call themselves 4VI andthey were originally called
Tourism Vancouver Island, butthe 4 stands for the four
sustainabilityples that they usefor future tourism.
So they're also working quiteclosely with First Nations and
they're very clearly in supportof our trail.
(14:21):
They're very carefulpolitically about how they say
that, but we know them well andwe know that we've got their
support.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Well, without trying to make generalizations about
First Nations or double guesswhat they're thinking and doing,
can you give us any indicationsof?
Is there a consensus among theFirst Nations about how this
corridor, what we?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
call the island corridor.
That's the coast corridor.
There's the coast corridorwhich is 225 kilometres and then
, as you mentioned, there's aspur off to Porto Berni.
But off those five FirstNations the Snaanaanaas has
their land back, the Halaal isanother First Nation who they
(15:09):
want their land back, and theCowichan First Nations, which is
one of the biggest FirstNations groups on the island,
they also want their land back.
So the corridor is going to bebroken in three places.
And we've actually spoken to twoof the other First Nations.
I mentioned perhaps theCowichan first.
We spoke to them about twoyears ago and they did not want
(15:30):
a trail on the corridor throughtheir reserve, where it was
located, but they'd be quitehappy to reroute a trail either
around the outside of thereserve or through a different
part of that reserve.
So we believe they're somewhatamenable.
Uh, the last time we spoke tothem was that we made a
presentation.
They said well, we'redefinitely not saying yes, but
(15:52):
we're not saying no either.
So they're obviously watchingto see how the winds go and I
think the Sinaloa study may bethe one that actually drives it
for First Nations.
But that's the First Nations onthe corridor and they're the
ones that are most important,two other First Nations in
Victoria.
The Esquimalt First Nation isone of them.
(16:13):
The trail in the capital regionis already built around their
reserve.
Well, it kind of shows that itcan be done.
So it's already there.
So we believe First Nations andmany other parts of Canada
really see benefit comingbecause it allows them to have
people exposed to their culture.
(16:36):
And in fact, the Splatsen FirstNation, who are responsible for
the North Okanagan Trail.
They saw the potential for themas a First Nation to have a
trail like that going throughtheir traditional lands, their
traditional territory.
They saw it as a connector fortheir traditional territory.
(16:57):
We've spoken to them about thatand we thought that was very
interesting that they saw thatpotential as a benefit for the
First Nation.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Well, I remember when greenways were being introduced
in Vancouver and there werepeople alongside the route
saying, well, we don't wantthese cyclists, you know,
crowding our neighborhood.
But it was quickly pointed outthat people on bicycles are
about the least intrusivevisitors you can ask for.
They can't.
They're not going to break intoyour house and steal your TV
and take it home on theirbicycle.
(17:26):
They're just and they don'tmake any noise, they don't make
any pollution.
They may stop and buy a meal oran ice cream cone or stay
somewhere.
So it does, on the surface,sound like a big benefit for any
territory that's got this trail.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Absolutely.
We ran into that with theGalloping Goose.
There was a girls' schoolactually on the route and they
were very expressive of theirconcerns about what might happen
to the girls with all theriffraff from town coming out
past their school.
But it quite quickly calmeddown and you know, right now I
(18:00):
mean practically everypolitician that was elected
eventually was a person thatstarted the galloping goose.
You know, everybody claimed itwas their own and that's where
we want to get.
We want to disappear and giveit to other people, let them
think they did this.
It's one of the things thatmight work politically.
Do we want to disappear andgive it to other people?
Let them think they did this?
It's one of the things thatmight work politically.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Are the lessons from the Galloping Goose transferable
to the rest of the route?
Well, some of them are Becauseit's got a higher built-up
density and there would be morecommuter and utilitarian trips
rather than tourist trips.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
But some of that route goes through some pretty
uninhabited territory.
Well, not really I don't wantto contradict you, but it goes
through some beautiful territoryand it is unspoiled.
But there's about almost 40small settlements on that
corridor on the coast corridor,and the average distance between
them is less than 10 kilometers.
So that allows for a lot ofpotential for local people to
use this corridor for activetransportation.
You've got an electric bike.
You can get to a store in fivekilometers.
(19:02):
Why are you going to jump inyour car on a beautiful day?
So there's potential there.
Anyway, you look at it really.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Well, I did read that 10% of the population of
vancouver island lives withinsorry 80 of the population is
within 10, 5 to 10 kilometers ofthis rail.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
So it is a central spine it is a central spine, a
connector spine and, as I say,the demographics are very, very
similar to the gap trail inpennsylvania, which is about the
same demographics with peopleclose to the corridor, and it's
an amazing success.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
So what's next?
What are your next steps?
What are you waiting for?
What's the best chance of abreakthrough?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Well, yeah, you can call this the tipping point if
you like, but there's reallymore than one tipping point.
One of the tipping points thatwas of a lot of concern to
people was well, is rail comingback?
Well, I think we're long pastthat.
You'll still find lots ofpeople say they want to.
You know, you'll get thousandsof people on a petition saying
we'd love to have rail I'd beone of them, but there's no rail
(20:06):
coming by.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
the economics just doesn't work just hold that
thought for a second.
The couch and valley regionaldistrict did a survey and 79
percent of people say use it forpassenger rail, 49 percent said
hiking and biking and 42percent said freight rail.
And the island uh corridorfoundation, which, as you said,
has built into its purposes thatthey have to do something about
(20:30):
rail, is championing this highrail thing where you kind of get
a bus, that's, that's when youyou can have the wheels and then
it pops up.
Some things pop down on it,like those, those four, those
pickup trucks that go on therail tracks and it can be a
little commuter through asection and they have found,
apparently, that that'soperating somewhere around
Lillooet.
They think that might be usefulfor a certain section of this
(20:53):
trail.
Is that a non-starter in yourview?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I think the one that operates in Lillooet is
operating as a kind of schoolbus and it might carry about 100
people a day.
The cost of reestablishing thiscorridor?
Remember it's closed for safetyreasons.
The corridor is broke.
As far as rail is concerned,the existing infrastructure is
no good.
So are you going to spendseveral hundred million dollars
(21:17):
to run a school bus?
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Okay.
So I was asking about your nextbreakthrough and you were just
saying it won't be rail.
So then what?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Well, we're quite confident that we've passed that
kind of tipping point, thatrail is coming back, but we've
got to get to the point where.
How does this happen?
There's many ways it couldhappen.
It can happen through oneregional district, it can happen
through one First Nation.
The way the Galloping Goosereally took off was a politician
, a minister of the Crown,andrew Pedder.
You may know his name, I thinkhe was the chair of Simon Fraser
(21:52):
.
Latterly Anyway, we spoke tohim, the president of Simon
Fraser, president a big part.
He at that time was responsiblefor an organization called the
Capital Commission, which is nowgone, unfortunately, and he
picked this up and he ran withit.
And another politician whosename you probably remember, mose
(22:12):
Hota.
He joined in and that wasreally where the thing took off.
Someone at some level who is adecision maker has to champion
this at some point.
We really don't have anybodyidentified yet, but we think
that as the pressure mounts frombusiness, from tourism, that
it's likely somebody will havethe vision to see this, because
(22:34):
when you actually look at thison paper and we look at the
studies that have been done, youlook at how successful the
trails have been.
You mentioned New Zealand.
That's right in our feasibilitystudy.
I mean, I hate to use the termno-brainer, but it kind of is.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Well, we are going to be championing this at our
regional summit in KimberleySeptember 10th to the 12th.
Colleen MacDonald will be thereand try to bring people
together and do these next steps, but it's interesting that we
haven't yet seen any senior,influential politicians step out
and try to own this and give itthe leadership that it
(23:11):
obviously needs.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Actually we did have one politician and I won't
mention names, but onepolitician did a minister in the
last government.
She was very confident and veryenthusiastic about it, but it
was not something the governmentwanted to deal with at the time
(23:35):
and I think that really is partof the problem.
There's so many other issues atthe moment that weren't there
when we started the GallopingGoose, but I'm pretty confident
at some point there is going tobe an Andrew Pedder that will
say this is a good news story.
People love trails.
We can make political capitalout of this.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And do you think that it will be the economic tourism
potential that will make thedifference?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I don't think necessarily that is the only
thing that would make thedifference.
The Galloping Goose is stillnot promoted for tourism.
It does get some tourism,especially up at the West End
where it goes through an amazingarea called the Sooke Potholes.
It's second to none.
It's a scenic place in the westcoast of the island.
(24:21):
But there's lots of reasons whypeople would support this.
Tourism is just one.
But active transportation isgrowing.
It's right there in theprovincial government policy,
the South Island TransportationStudy.
Two priorities are publictransit and active
transportation.
Federal government.
They had the fund.
We got money from that fund.
(24:41):
So it's kind of like there's alot of things just waiting to
happen there.
I must admit, I'm kind ofhoping I make it to your active
transportation event this yearbecause I'm sure it's going to
be a pretty interestingdiscussion.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Well, I hope so, and tell me more about your
organization.
I mean, you've been going forhow long and how many people are
involved with that and whatdoes that take to keep it going.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I've been involved for five or six years years I
think it was going for a fewyears before that but when I
became involved we decided toactually become a provincial
society and things took off.
From then.
It opened doors.
We've seen the provincialtransportation ministers two of
them so far probably half adozen times, but you really have
(25:31):
to have the constituency to getthis to happen and that's what
we're really focused on buildingright now.
We're focusing on Comox in thenear future and we have a couple
of business people up thereinvolved with their organization
, who are you know they've gotsome credibility when it goes to
talk to the Chamber, when theygo to talk to the Chamber of
Commerce up there involved withtheir organization, who are you
know they've got somecredibility when it goes to talk
to the chamber, when they go totalk to the chamber of commerce
.
And you know we've goteverything from university
(25:53):
professors to economists on ourboard, you know, really good
board, solid board, all of whomare working board members.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
That's fantastic and I want to give a plug to your
video that you've done.
You can tell people how toreach, I guess.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Fortvica is our website.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Fortvica.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
And there's lots of information on there.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And you have there people like a councillor from
Qualicum and a vineyard ownerfrom the Couch and Valley, I
think would love to see bikescoming by his place.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Well, the councillor for Qualicum is my favourite.
I think he basically sayseverybody loves trains, but
nobody wants to pay for them, solet's do a trail.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
And so I guess your job now is to cultivate more
people like that, who will speakout and solicit support from
their region.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yes, there are more and more all the time we do a
newsletter.
It's well over a thousand nowin circulation.
We've got about 300 members andmembership's growing, so it's
growing steadily.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Well, thank you so much, because this is one of
those things that I particularlylike as a cycling advocate,
because it crosses so manydifferent constituencies and
it's not just a few geekcyclists, it's communities and
hotels and commuters andfamilies getting to school and
doing their work and justvisitors coming to BC.
(27:09):
I know that the head of theIsland Corridor Foundation
dreams of having people comingto the World Cup to be doing
this or some part of this route,so that'll be a quick
turnaround, but hey, let's dreambig.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Well, with a trail, it's all ages and abilities.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Fantastic, yeah, around.
But hey, let's, let's dream big.
Well, with the trail, it's allages and abilities.
So fantastic, yeah.
Well, we'll keep an eye on this, alistair, and maybe, uh, see
you at our conference inkimberly in september.
And I do hope so and, andhopefully the bc cycling
coalition, can help you andother organizations like yours
work on these projects and bringthem to fruition.
Thank you absolutely,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
We really appreciate that, peter.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original
podcast from the BC CyclingCoalition.
If you like the podcast, we'dbe grateful if you could leave
us a rating.
On whatever platform you use,you can also subscribe so you
don't miss future episodes.
We'd be grateful if you couldleave us a rating.
On whatever platform you use,you can also subscribe so you
(28:13):
don't miss future episodes.
If you have comments orsuggestions for future episodes,
email me at peterladner atbccyclingca.
You can help us amplify BCCycling Coalition's voice by
simply becoming a free member atbccyclingca.
Thank you.
Welcome to Bike Sense , the BC Cycling Coalition's
podcast, where we talk about allthings related to active
transportation advocacy in BC.
I'm your host, peter Ladner,chair of the Board of the BC
Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
All over BC, cyclists andtourism promoters are
(00:40):
justifiably excited aboutconverting abandoned rails to
trails, and they have been doingthis for decades.
There have been some notablesuccesses the Kettle Valley
Railway, even the ArbutusGreenway in Vancouver.
But maybe the biggest dream isthe 289-kilometer E&N Rail line
on Vancouver Island, stretchingfrom Courtney to Victoria.
My guest today is one of thechampions of this conversion of
(01:02):
that rail line into trailsAlistair Craighead.
He's the chair of the Friendsof this conversion of that rail
line into trails, alistairCraighead.
He's the chair of the Friendsof Rail Trail Vancouver Island.
Welcome, alistair.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Good afternoon, Peter .
It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Alistair, you're based in Victoria and you have
some history already withconverting rails to trails in
Victoria.
How did you get involved inthat and tell us what that was
about?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
We got involved in about 1987.
We decided that another unusedrailway that runs from Victoria
through to Sooke and also out toSaanich.
We saw the real potential fordoing something there that would
connect all of the communitiesas the railway once did,
something there that wouldconnect all of the communities
as the railway once did.
(01:46):
And so what we did?
To begin with, we started theGreater Victoria Cycling
Coalition and the first projectof the Cycling Coalition was to
get that conversion started.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
And it's been a remarkable success.
As far as I can tell, and Iguess what happened there has
whetted your appetite for thismuch bigger project, and I
wonder if you could justdescribe in your dreams if all
your dreams came true, whatwould it look like?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well, in actual fact, I'd say the Galloping Goose
really is a model, because it'san active transportation
corridor that's used for manythings.
It's used for people commuting,it's used for recreation, it's
used for many things.
It's used for people commuting,it's used for recreation, it's
used for anybody who wants toget out and get away from cars,
really.
So to see that extended upisland, and it would be an
extension, because if we extendthat up island, that will
(02:37):
connect not just the island butthrough ferries, it would
provide a circle route whichwould go all the way around.
So you'd come in at Swarch Bay,you'd go on the Galloping Goose
, you'd go from the GallopingGoose to the Island Corridor
Trail, you'd go up there toComox, from Comox across to
(02:58):
Powell River, down through theSunshine Coast and back into
Vancouver.
So that, in fact, is the realdream.
It could be part of a wholecircle route.
That would be absolutelyamazing for tourism, nothing
like anywhere else.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Now you're talking about tourism and our new board
member, colleen MacDonald, whowrote let's Go Biking, has made
a comparison between BC and NewZealand in about comparable
population sizes and they havesomething like a $1 billion plus
cycle tourism industry.
Has there been tourism interestin the Galloping Goose Trail?
(03:35):
Do you have any data thatpeople coming to Victoria to do
that trail?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Well, we're interested in two ways.
From tourism there's anorganization on the island
called 4VI or 4TVI.
Now that's the old tourismVancouver Island organization
that was started to promotetourism.
But the other element is wehave also in our feasibility
(04:09):
study some numbers there.
We're talking in the millionshere about how much economic
impact it would have.
Probably something like 100million a year it would build to
that.
And that's not just an estimate.
That's looking at another trailin the?
U, the US, which is verysimilar in demographics and in
fact on that trail it's not justan economic impact, it's a
(04:31):
creator of business.
On the Gap Trail about 40% ofthe businesses on that corridor
corridor's called the GreatAllegheny Passage.
40% of the businesses on thatcorridor owe their existence to
that trail.
So that's the kind of impact itcan have.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Okay, let's get into it.
This project has been underway,or talked about, for many years
, but you're not the onlyorganization that has designs on
this rail corridor.
On this rail corridor, theIsland Corridor Foundation seems
to be promoting more of a mixeduse of rail perhaps a little
(05:11):
bit of freight, perhaps somecommuting on the tracks, and
you're saying that you think itshould be no tracks, all biking
and hiking.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
reconciling those two Biking, hiking and active
transportation generally.
It's not so much areconciliation, it's actually an
either, or there is actuallytrail already developed in the
capital region beside the rails.
The rails in the capital regionare not used and they won't be
used.
There's a study showing thatthat's not where LRT will
eventually go in the capitalcity.
It will go on the corridorwhere the highway is, so it
(05:44):
won't be used.
There's a study showing thatthat's not where LRT will
eventually go in the capitalcity.
It will go on the corridorwhere the highway is, so it
won't be used.
Anyway, there was a lot of moneyspent $2 million a kilometer to
start the last kilometer builtbeside the rails $3.4 million
for that kilometer.
That's clearly not feasible todo that all the way up island
not feasible to do that all theway up island.
On the other hand, we knowthere's no funding for rail.
(06:06):
We have a good relationshipwith the ICS.
We're quite cordial in ourrelationship.
We just disagree in what thefuture is, and part of the
reason for that is the ICF hasin their purposes that a
charitable organisation is tosupport rail.
So their purposes have to bechanged in order to get it to
happen.
Five First Nations tried to dothat a couple of years ago and
(06:31):
they ended up leaving the ICFbecause the ICF wouldn't change.
So that motion is still thereon the books, it just hasn't
been dealt with.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Just to be clear, ICF is the Island Corridor
Foundation.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Island Corridor Foundation.
It's a federal charitableorganization.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Now this route would have to go through many
jurisdictions.
You've got 13 municipalities,five regional districts and
anywhere from several to 14First Nations, depending on land
claims.
I guess Now in my earlierdiscussion with you you said
(07:08):
getting the agreement of theFirst Nations is critical to
this path going through.
Can you elaborate a little biton that and what's happened in
that regard so far?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Well, the corridor actually runs through First
Nations reserves.
The original corridor.
The land was basically takenaway from the First Nations
reserves.
The original corridor the landwas basically taken away from
the First Nations.
So, to cut a long story shortagain, they went to court.
They got their land back.
One of them has actually liftedthe rails from the corridor
through their First Nationreserve and put a trail in place
.
So that's kind of the directionwe see most of the First
(07:41):
Nations that are actually on thecorridor going.
There's a number of other FirstNations that may not be so keen.
But going back to the whole,reasoning behind doing an
alternative is that rail issimply not viable.
I'd love to be able to step ona train in Victoria and go to
Comox.
Nothing, I'd like better.
It's not going to happen.
Federal and provincialgovernment have made it very
(08:03):
clear over the past 10, 15 yearsthat there's no funding for
rail and I know that the ICF wastold that again very, very
recently.
There's no money coming forrail, so the corridor is a
default solution.
It's likely to happen sooner orlater.
One thing everybody agrees on,including the ICF and us and
(08:23):
this is one of the reasons we'reable to talk is that the
corridor is a very valuabletransportation asset.
It would be a shame to see itgo.
So when everybody's agreed onthat and we know that rail is
not viable, we're the defaultsolution.
So it gives us a littleoptimism.
It may take a while.
Galloping Goose took about 15years to get built out and you
(08:46):
know all the regional districts.
Yes, there's five, but theCapital Regional District is the
manager for the Galloping GooseTrail.
They lease it from theprovincial government.
I've absolutely no doubt thatthat model would work for the
whole island.
It's very well managed by theregional districts a good
management model.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And it's not for lack of study that this project
hasn't advanced.
I see that the provincialgovernment, the Ministry of
Transportation nowTransportation and Transit gave
$600,000 to each of thejurisdictions at First Nations
along the route to do consultantstudies and so on.
So there must be.
What was the result of allthose studies?
Did that bring you any closerto agreement?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I don't know how quiet to put this.
It's a little bit of apolitical football, because a
decision has to be made and thewhole idea that the government
would do this study came from acourt a potential court decision
that was going to give the landback to the First Nations and
basically say that's the end ofrail in the corridor if you
(09:54):
don't put the money up rightaway to do it.
So the government knows it's awaste of time to try and put
money into rail, so they don'twant to put the money there, so
they start the project.
It's been renewed three times.
It started off as 18 months.
We're over two years now andit's got another six months to
run.
So we're not too sure.
That's necessarily where theanswer is going to come from.
(10:15):
But there is to some extent adeferment by the regions to the
First Nations.
There's one First Nation,that's Nenonoas, north of
Nanaimo, who are doing a studyoff the whole corridor using the
funding that you mentionedearlier, peter, and we're very
optimistic that that will be thebest of the studies that will
be done.
We've seen one completed andyou know, one of the first
(10:39):
things the study says is we'renot going to make a decision on
what we think would be best forthe corridor.
Well, enough said.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
So this is 289 kilometers and I know there are
offshoots to Port Alberni andLake Cowichan that are all part
of the plan but, as you said, itwas 15 years just to get the
galloping goose going.
Clearly it's not all going tohappen overnight.
Are there some sections thatwould work short of the whole
thing?
(11:15):
That would be incrementalimprovements that are reasonably
doable early on, given thatyour studies show that the cost
of this is around $600,000 perkilometer.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
That's right.
That cost is about the same asthe North Okanagan Trail.
It was started by a FirstNation who got a $12 million
Splats and First Nation.
They got a grant from theFederal Active Transportation
Fund.
Comox is probably the least ofa political football, partly
(11:55):
because the rails have alreadybeen lifted there by a First
Nation that's just known asFirst Nation.
So the rails are up there fortwo kilometers.
You're not going to build arailway somewhere else to make
up the two kilometers.
So we're kind of optimistic.
And the other thing is that theTrans-Canada Trail has given us
a letter of support for thatsection.
They're supporting that, thatsection go to trail and they've
got a fair bit of influence.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So that would become part of the Trans-Canada Trail.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
That would become part of the Trans-Canada Trail
Now the Trans-Canada Trail southof that on the island, a large
part of it's on an old loggingroad called the Niagara Main.
It is not a pleasant bike ride.
It's better than nothing.
But if we see that Nanaimosection go to the Trans-Canada
Trail, I think that wouldprobably drive the process
(12:41):
further south as well.
That's only one scenario, butthat's a possibility.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Well, if the Nanaimo to Comox one were done, you
would have another circle routeto Powell River, to Comox,
nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay.
Indeed, you would, yes, youwould have another circle route
to Powell River, to Comox,nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Indeed, you would.
Yes, you're absolutely right,that would be a shorter circle,
but that potential is there allthe time too, and it's one of
the keys.
I mean, we're seeing car-freeferries, if you like to call
them that, beginning to operateout of Nanaimo and are very
successful, so we may see moreof that from other parts of the
island too.
It's getting very, veryexpensive to go to Vancouver in
(13:19):
a car from the island, so Ithink the potential for these
ferries that would carrypassengers and bikes as well is
very good.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Well, I know just a side note on that that the BC
Cycling Coalition and HubCycling are both working with
and pushing the ferries to bemore cycle friendly.
Yes, so who else is involved?
We've mentioned governments andyour organization, but are
there businesses like TourismVictoria I don't even know if
(13:47):
there is such a thing orDestination BC, or the Ministry
of Tourism?
Are there others who share yourexcitement about the tourism
potential, who are willing tosupport it both politically and
financially?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yes, indeed, the organization that I mentioned
earlier.
They call themselves 4VI andthey were originally called
Tourism Vancouver Island, butthe 4 stands for the four
sustainabilityples that they usefor future tourism.
So they're also working quiteclosely with First Nations and
they're very clearly in supportof our trail.
(14:21):
They're very carefulpolitically about how they say
that, but we know them well andwe know that we've got their
support.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Well, without trying to make generalizations about
First Nations or double guesswhat they're thinking and doing,
can you give us any indicationsof?
Is there a consensus among theFirst Nations about how this
corridor, what we?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
call the island corridor.
That's the coast corridor.
There's the coast corridorwhich is 225 kilometres and then
, as you mentioned, there's aspur off to Porto Berni.
But off those five FirstNations the Snaanaanaas has
their land back, the Halaal isanother First Nation who they
(15:09):
want their land back, and theCowichan First Nations, which is
one of the biggest FirstNations groups on the island,
they also want their land back.
So the corridor is going to bebroken in three places.
And we've actually spoken to twoof the other First Nations.
I mentioned perhaps theCowichan first.
We spoke to them about twoyears ago and they did not want
(15:30):
a trail on the corridor throughtheir reserve, where it was
located, but they'd be quitehappy to reroute a trail either
around the outside of thereserve or through a different
part of that reserve.
So we believe they're somewhatamenable.
Uh, the last time we spoke tothem was that we made a
presentation.
They said well, we'redefinitely not saying yes, but
(15:52):
we're not saying no either.
So they're obviously watchingto see how the winds go and I
think the Sinaloa study may bethe one that actually drives it
for First Nations.
But that's the First Nations onthe corridor and they're the
ones that are most important,two other First Nations in
Victoria.
The Esquimalt First Nation isone of them.
(16:13):
The trail in the capital regionis already built around their
reserve.
Well, it kind of shows that itcan be done.
So it's already there.
So we believe First Nations andmany other parts of Canada
really see benefit comingbecause it allows them to have
people exposed to their culture.
(16:36):
And in fact, the Splatsen FirstNation, who are responsible for
the North Okanagan Trail.
They saw the potential for themas a First Nation to have a
trail like that going throughtheir traditional lands, their
traditional territory.
They saw it as a connector fortheir traditional territory.
(16:57):
We've spoken to them about thatand we thought that was very
interesting that they saw thatpotential as a benefit for the
First Nation.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Well, I remember when greenways were being introduced
in Vancouver and there werepeople alongside the route
saying, well, we don't wantthese cyclists, you know,
crowding our neighborhood.
But it was quickly pointed outthat people on bicycles are
about the least intrusivevisitors you can ask for.
They can't.
They're not going to break intoyour house and steal your TV
and take it home on theirbicycle.
(17:26):
They're just and they don'tmake any noise, they don't make
any pollution.
They may stop and buy a meal oran ice cream cone or stay
somewhere.
So it does, on the surface,sound like a big benefit for any
territory that's got this trail.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Absolutely.
We ran into that with theGalloping Goose.
There was a girls' schoolactually on the route and they
were very expressive of theirconcerns about what might happen
to the girls with all theriffraff from town coming out
past their school.
But it quite quickly calmeddown and you know, right now I
(18:00):
mean practically everypolitician that was elected
eventually was a person thatstarted the galloping goose.
You know, everybody claimed itwas their own and that's where
we want to get.
We want to disappear and giveit to other people, let them
think they did this.
It's one of the things thatmight work politically.
Do we want to disappear andgive it to other people?
Let them think they did this?
It's one of the things thatmight work politically.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Are the lessons from the Galloping Goose transferable
to the rest of the route?
Well, some of them are Becauseit's got a higher built-up
density and there would be morecommuter and utilitarian trips
rather than tourist trips.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
But some of that route goes through some pretty
uninhabited territory.
Well, not really I don't wantto contradict you, but it goes
through some beautiful territoryand it is unspoiled.
But there's about almost 40small settlements on that
corridor on the coast corridor,and the average distance between
them is less than 10 kilometers.
So that allows for a lot ofpotential for local people to
use this corridor for activetransportation.
You've got an electric bike.
You can get to a store in fivekilometers.
(19:02):
Why are you going to jump inyour car on a beautiful day?
So there's potential there.
Anyway, you look at it really.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Well, I did read that 10% of the population of
vancouver island lives withinsorry 80 of the population is
within 10, 5 to 10 kilometers ofthis rail.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
So it is a central spine it is a central spine, a
connector spine and, as I say,the demographics are very, very
similar to the gap trail inpennsylvania, which is about the
same demographics with peopleclose to the corridor, and it's
an amazing success.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
So what's next?
What are your next steps?
What are you waiting for?
What's the best chance of abreakthrough?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Well, yeah, you can call this the tipping point if
you like, but there's reallymore than one tipping point.
One of the tipping points thatwas of a lot of concern to
people was well, is rail comingback?
Well, I think we're long pastthat.
You'll still find lots ofpeople say they want to.
You know, you'll get thousandsof people on a petition saying
we'd love to have rail I'd beone of them, but there's no rail
(20:06):
coming by.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
the economics just doesn't work just hold that
thought for a second.
The couch and valley regionaldistrict did a survey and 79
percent of people say use it forpassenger rail, 49 percent said
hiking and biking and 42percent said freight rail.
And the island uh corridorfoundation, which, as you said,
has built into its purposes thatthey have to do something about
(20:30):
rail, is championing this highrail thing where you kind of get
a bus, that's, that's when youyou can have the wheels and then
it pops up.
Some things pop down on it,like those, those four, those
pickup trucks that go on therail tracks and it can be a
little commuter through asection and they have found,
apparently, that that'soperating somewhere around
Lillooet.
They think that might be usefulfor a certain section of this
(20:53):
trail.
Is that a non-starter in yourview?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I think the one that operates in Lillooet is
operating as a kind of schoolbus and it might carry about 100
people a day.
The cost of reestablishing thiscorridor?
Remember it's closed for safetyreasons.
The corridor is broke.
As far as rail is concerned,the existing infrastructure is
no good.
So are you going to spendseveral hundred million dollars
(21:17):
to run a school bus?
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Okay.
So I was asking about your nextbreakthrough and you were just
saying it won't be rail.
So then what?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Well, we're quite confident that we've passed that
kind of tipping point, thatrail is coming back, but we've
got to get to the point where.
How does this happen?
There's many ways it couldhappen.
It can happen through oneregional district, it can happen
through one First Nation.
The way the Galloping Goosereally took off was a politician
, a minister of the Crown,andrew Pedder.
You may know his name, I thinkhe was the chair of Simon Fraser
(21:52):
.
Latterly Anyway, we spoke tohim, the president of Simon
Fraser, president a big part.
He at that time was responsiblefor an organization called the
Capital Commission, which is nowgone, unfortunately, and he
picked this up and he ran withit.
And another politician whosename you probably remember, mose
(22:12):
Hota.
He joined in and that wasreally where the thing took off.
Someone at some level who is adecision maker has to champion
this at some point.
We really don't have anybodyidentified yet, but we think
that as the pressure mounts frombusiness, from tourism, that
it's likely somebody will havethe vision to see this, because
(22:34):
when you actually look at thison paper and we look at the
studies that have been done, youlook at how successful the
trails have been.
You mentioned New Zealand.
That's right in our feasibilitystudy.
I mean, I hate to use the termno-brainer, but it kind of is.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Well, we are going to be championing this at our
regional summit in KimberleySeptember 10th to the 12th.
Colleen MacDonald will be thereand try to bring people
together and do these next steps, but it's interesting that we
haven't yet seen any senior,influential politicians step out
and try to own this and give itthe leadership that it
(23:11):
obviously needs.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Actually we did have one politician and I won't
mention names, but onepolitician did a minister in the
last government.
She was very confident and veryenthusiastic about it, but it
was not something the governmentwanted to deal with at the time
(23:35):
and I think that really is partof the problem.
There's so many other issues atthe moment that weren't there
when we started the GallopingGoose, but I'm pretty confident
at some point there is going tobe an Andrew Pedder that will
say this is a good news story.
People love trails.
We can make political capitalout of this.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And do you think that it will be the economic tourism
potential that will make thedifference?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I don't think necessarily that is the only
thing that would make thedifference.
The Galloping Goose is stillnot promoted for tourism.
It does get some tourism,especially up at the West End
where it goes through an amazingarea called the Sooke Potholes.
It's second to none.
It's a scenic place in the westcoast of the island.
(24:21):
But there's lots of reasons whypeople would support this.
Tourism is just one.
But active transportation isgrowing.
It's right there in theprovincial government policy,
the South Island TransportationStudy.
Two priorities are publictransit and active
transportation.
Federal government.
They had the fund.
We got money from that fund.
(24:41):
So it's kind of like there's alot of things just waiting to
happen there.
I must admit, I'm kind ofhoping I make it to your active
transportation event this yearbecause I'm sure it's going to
be a pretty interestingdiscussion.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Well, I hope so, and tell me more about your
organization.
I mean, you've been going forhow long and how many people are
involved with that and whatdoes that take to keep it going.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I've been involved for five or six years years I
think it was going for a fewyears before that but when I
became involved we decided toactually become a provincial
society and things took off.
From then.
It opened doors.
We've seen the provincialtransportation ministers two of
them so far probably half adozen times, but you really have
(25:31):
to have the constituency to getthis to happen and that's what
we're really focused on buildingright now.
We're focusing on Comox in thenear future and we have a couple
of business people up thereinvolved with their organization
, who are you know they've gotsome credibility when it goes to
talk to the Chamber, when theygo to talk to the Chamber of
Commerce up there involved withtheir organization, who are you
know they've got somecredibility when it goes to talk
to the chamber, when they go totalk to the chamber of commerce
.
And you know we've goteverything from university
(25:53):
professors to economists on ourboard, you know, really good
board, solid board, all of whomare working board members.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
That's fantastic and I want to give a plug to your
video that you've done.
You can tell people how toreach, I guess.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Fortvica is our website.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Fortvica.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
And there's lots of information on there.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And you have there people like a councillor from
Qualicum and a vineyard ownerfrom the Couch and Valley, I
think would love to see bikescoming by his place.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Well, the councillor for Qualicum is my favourite.
I think he basically sayseverybody loves trains, but
nobody wants to pay for them, solet's do a trail.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
And so I guess your job now is to cultivate more
people like that, who will speakout and solicit support from
their region.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yes, there are more and more all the time we do a
newsletter.
It's well over a thousand nowin circulation.
We've got about 300 members andmembership's growing, so it's
growing steadily.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Well, thank you so much, because this is one of
those things that I particularlylike as a cycling advocate,
because it crosses so manydifferent constituencies and
it's not just a few geekcyclists, it's communities and
hotels and commuters andfamilies getting to school and
doing their work and justvisitors coming to BC.
(27:09):
I know that the head of theIsland Corridor Foundation
dreams of having people comingto the World Cup to be doing
this or some part of this route,so that'll be a quick
turnaround, but hey, let's dreambig.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Well, with a trail, it's all ages and abilities.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Fantastic, yeah, around.
But hey, let's, let's dream big.
Well, with the trail, it's allages and abilities.
So fantastic, yeah.
Well, we'll keep an eye on this, alistair, and maybe, uh, see
you at our conference inkimberly in september.
And I do hope so and, andhopefully the bc cycling
coalition, can help you andother organizations like yours
work on these projects and bringthem to fruition.
Thank you absolutely,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
We really appreciate that, peter.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original
podcast from the BC CyclingCoalition.
If you like the podcast, we'dbe grateful if you could leave
us a rating.
On whatever platform you use,you can also subscribe so you
don't miss future episodes.
We'd be grateful if you couldleave us a rating.
On whatever platform you use,you can also subscribe so you
(28:13):
don't miss future episodes.
If you have comments orsuggestions for future episodes,
email me at peterladner atbccyclingca.
You can help us amplify BCCycling Coalition's voice by
simply becoming a free member atbccyclingca.
Thank you.
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