June 6, 2024 • 34 mins
Consul General for the Kingdom of the Netherlands to BC, Sebastiaan Messerschmidt, shares his firsthand experiences of growing up in a country that prioritizes cycling. From his nostalgic childhood memories of biking freely and safely to his current efforts in promoting active transportation projects globally, Sebastiaan offers a unique perspective on the transformative power of cycling-friendly infrastructure, what we can do to up our game, and where BC is getting it right.
www.nederlandwereldwijd.nl and/or www.netherlandsandyou.nl
Facebook www.facebook.com/NetherlandsEmbassyInCanada | Twitter @NLinCanada @smesserschmidt
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Bike Sense , the BC Cycling Coalition's
podcast, where we talk about allthings related to cycling
advocacy, education and safetyin BC.
I'm your host, peter Ladner.
I'm the chair of the board ofthe BC Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
I hope you enjoy the show.
(00:25):
My guest today is SebastianMeijerschmidt, who is the Consul
General for the Kingdom of theNetherlands, and we are going to
talk about what BC looks likefrom the point of view of
someone who grew up totallyimmersed in a cycling culture
and what the Netherlands perhapscould offer us, and a bunch of
(00:49):
other stuff.
But before we do, I'm justgoing to explain how he ended up
on this podcast.
I was at a conference about thefuture of transportation in
cities and it was almostentirely preoccupied with EVs,
charging stations, regulationsand so on.
And right at the end I stood upand said well, you know, that's
great, but there's also a wholeother world of active
(01:11):
transportation, particularlyempowered and opened up and
expanded by the arrival andpopularity of e-bikes.
And after I sat down, a mancalled Martin van Ouden came up
to me, said I'm with the Dutchconsulate and we are very
interested in this topic.
So that led me to a party atSebastian's place to celebrate
(01:32):
the birthday of the King of theNetherlands, the King and Queen,
or just the King Just the King,just the King.
Okay, but the Queen could havebeen there too.
Anyways, and Martin Sebastianhas also stepped up to support
the Active Transportation Summitthat the BC Cycling Coalition
is organizing in collaborationwith the Ministry of
(01:53):
Transportation andInfrastructure, june 18th 19th
the Anvil Center.
So welcome to the podcast,sebastian.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Thank you, I'm very excited.
I'm very excited.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Peter, before we get into the issues, I just want to
find out a little bit about you.
And first question I've gotfour questions.
The first one is can youremember your first cycling
experience or your first timeyou got on a bicycle?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
oh you know, was it just well, the dutch people
bored with cycles on the feet,so I don't know.
Okay, so right in the right outof the womb, yeah, you know, we
, we, we get on tricycles andlike early stage, early, early,
early, early stage, so we play,we play outside, like in my
childhood.
Might be different now, I don'tknow how it is now because I'm
(02:41):
old, but my childhood we gotoutside like right immediately
on tricycles and then you getthe little bicycle with a side
wheel to support you, but youwant to get rid of those as
quick as possible.
And then by the time I was likefour, like early four, I was
riding on, you know, without theside wheels, on my little
bicycle through the neighborhood.
(03:08):
So let me ask you, not justnecessarily about cycling, but
have you any other specificmemory from your childhood that
you would say defines you Well?
I think my youth, which alsokind of shaped part of my
character, was reallycharacterized by a lot of
freedom.
You get on your little bicycleand I was like five or six and
my mom and dad would not see me.
I would just morning come backfrom school, I would say, bye,
I'll get on my little bicycle.
I was like five or six and mymom and dad would not see me.
I would just morning, like,come back from school, I would
say, bye, I'll get on my littlebicycle, I would go outside and
(03:30):
I would play outside all day andthe only thing I needed to do
was back home before dark.
That's the only thing, and thenwe'd have dinner or whatever.
But so so, and that's really Ilove that, because also the
towns were shaped like,especially in the 1970s.
The town environments wereshaped to really cater also to
kids and to cyclinginfrastructure.
(03:52):
You could ride around in awhole neighborhood without
feeling unsafe.
My parents weren't worried.
I think today's parents maybeincluding myself, are a bit more
helicopter parents.
We're way more on top of thesafety and security of our
children.
They're a bit more scared andanxious about that.
Back then I could just gooutside and play and that
(04:14):
involved bicycles and one of thethings that we would make noise
.
We'd get these little.
You know how you get thesethings where yogurt is put in
like they're plasticky, if youcut them up and you take a peg
and you put it on your spokes.
Yeah, and it makes a lot ofnoise.
And when you're six, sevenyears old, that's fantastic.
And if you have like 12 of them, you make a lot of noise.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
No, I have to just throw a plug in here for Yutai
Lee's video that he did aboutwhy kids don't walk to school
anymore.
It's about 12 minutes long,it's had 1.3 million downloads
and it gets into that wholequestion you were just talking
about.
Back to you is there a specificproject you're proud of that
you've been involved with at anypoint in your career?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
There's many because I happen to love what I do.
The fact that I get paid forthis stuff is amazing.
There's many things I get to dowhich is fantastic, um, and
some of them are also bicyclerelated.
Uh, we supported the bicyclemayor of cape town.
My former posting was in capetown, south africa, and issues
around public transportation andlocal transportation and active
(05:19):
transportation are differentthere from here.
Um, and this guy was, and alsothis predecessor, the woman,
lebo Gang, and since both werekind of amazing people, they
work in the townships to teachpeople how to ride the bicycles
and that's more healthy becauseyou find more people that are
having an unhealthy lifestyle.
It's cheaper.
(05:39):
You find a lot of people thatdon't have the money and public
transportation into town issometimes a quarter of what
people earn and it's more fun.
And they made such an impactwith just these projects.
So the bicycle mayor that kindof advocates also towards the
municipality and towards thecity, like guys, if you make the
infrastructure, people will beless reliant on public transport
(06:03):
or cars and it will be betterfor all of us and and it was,
they were very passionate peopleand for us to put a little bit
of a money with that to makethem work better and then also
support them in the, in theinfrastructure and also in the
in the governance fantasticcould you explain what?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
what is a bicycle mayor?
That's not like the real mayorwho happens to be a cyclist.
It's somebody who says they'rea bicycle mayor.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
No, no, bicycle mayors are more or less, yeah,
they're like ambassadors forbicycle riding.
There's an organization calledBikes B-Y-C-S in the Netherlands
and they have come up with theconcept, so the bicycle mayor of
Amsterdam Fietsburgermeester isthe Dutch word, if you have any
Dutch listeners and theystarted in the Netherlands to
(06:49):
kind of advocate more bicyclinginfrastructure and it's spread
around the world.
It reads everywhere there isone in Toronto, there's one in
Victoria, there's one inWaterloo, not one in Vancouver.
Yet We'll get there.
I'm here now.
I'm here now.
I'm here now.
So it's gonna happen.
(07:12):
It's gonna happen.
I was gonna ask you what?
What can we learn?
Don't worry, okay, later.
So that was really, uh, it was,it was a low-hanging fruit for
us to, because it serves ourglobal challenges and our global
ambitions for the sustainabledevelopment goal and and
supporting uh, our adaptationtowards climate change and also
mitigating the, the effects ofclimate change.
So it serves a bigger goal, butalso serves the, the goal of of
development cooperation, whereyou want people that are less
fortunate to have money to do,to go in different ways of
(07:35):
transportation, to be able toactually go from hb uh in a
sustainable manner, and so itserves so many.
And then also it's a socialcohesion.
I did a tweet like if peopleare on x, still you can have all
the kinds of debates, whetherthat's a good or a bad thing.
I'm not going there, but uh, Idid a tweet in cape town level
hung was her name, the bicyclemayor there and she explained
(07:57):
really eloquently what riding abicycle for for a so-called
black woman in cape town meansand how you also meet other
people.
It's a social thing, it's asocial fabric thing, it's a
transportation thing, it's ahealth thing and it's a money
thing.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So yeah, quite interesting so is cycling,
promoting cycling.
Is that a policy of the Dutchgovernment?
I mean you.
You stepped up to support our,our active transportation summit
.
Yeah, is that part of yourmandate to get people onto
bicycles wherever there's aDutch consul general?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
well, you know, we we aspire still to be bicycle
country number one, but we alsoaspire to help achieve the
sustainable development goal.
So, yeah, it's definitely partof our mandate.
Also, we really as alliedcountries like Canada and the
(08:56):
Netherlands.
We really share norms andvalues.
We share an outlook on theworld in many aspects, so we are
natural partners to worktogether to improve each other
and inspire each other.
And one of the ways to improveand inspire each other is
looking at mobility, and there'smany things that we can learn
from the Canadians.
In many areas, many things youexcel and the Dutch can learn a
(09:19):
lot.
There's a few areas where Istart being very arrogantly
bragging about what we can bringto the table, and when it comes
down to active transportationand mobility, I think that's an
area where we excel, but at thesame time, it's an easier win
for us.
Our country is flat.
Our mountains are called thewind.
(09:41):
There's no mountains, it's allflat.
So there's a song called theDutch Mountains.
You might want to look it up onYouTube one day.
It's actually about the wind.
So there's no mountains, soit's easier to ride your bicycle
right and the infrastructure isthere.
It wasn't always there.
People think that it was alwayslike that?
Forget it.
Look at pictures of Amsterdamin the 1970s.
(10:05):
It was infected.
It's just too many carseverywhere and people were stuck
in traffic the whole day.
It looked horrible and there'sa lot of pictures on it If you
go Google it.
We transformed that in a matterof one and a half decades.
How did that happen?
Oh, it was a bit of arevolution and not everybody was
happy at the time.
There was a lot of opposition,especially from people owning
(10:28):
shops and people thinking thatyou need to be able to park your
car closer to the shop toactually be able to sell
something, because people willnot carry it otherwise to their
bicycle and get home you knowwhat research shows otherwise
through their bicycle and gethome.
You know what research shows?
Research shows if you make anarea car-free but make it really
(10:50):
accessible by both publictransport and by foot and by
bicycle, your revenues go up.
They don't go down, they go up.
As long as you make it theconnectedness and intermodality
and that's very important, theintermodality if you get that
right, then more people willflog in and go to your business.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Explain more what you mean by intermodality.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
So it's really important to look at transport
not just from a single mode oftransport point of view.
If you connect the dots reallywell, more people will be able
to move from A to B in a waythat's more sustainable, more
healthy and more efficient.
People get there quicker andhappier.
So that means if you have abicycle infrastructure that's
(11:30):
really well connected to a traininfrastructure.
Research has shown in theNetherlands that people that
take the train the numbers havegone up substantially
substantially, like tens ofpercentages because they started
building really good bicycleparkings where the bicycles were
safe, and then the trainstations also started to appear
(11:53):
repair shops.
So if you get to the trainstation you happen to have a
flat tire, you don't need towalk home for eight or nine
kilometers because you have arepair shop right there.
You come back from your day ofwork, you get out of the train,
you do that last five, sixkilometers.
Your bicycle is there.
It's repaired for you.
Also, what happened in theNetherlands is we have our
(12:13):
public transportation,especially the trains.
They've started their ownbicycle rent-out schemes, which
is called the publictransportation bicycle, the
OV-feets in Dutch.
They're yellow and blue.
You see them everywhere.
You get to the train station.
The major train stations allhave them.
You have a subscription, youhave a card, you can just get a
bicycle.
If you don't have asubscription, you just pay and
(12:36):
you arrive there and there'shundreds of them so you can
choose one.
You get on your bicycle and yougo to where you need to go.
And especially thatintermodality, if the last five
to 10 kilometers, if you can dothat on a bicycle, it saves a
lot of congestion.
It saves a lot ofinfrastructure for parking of
cars, which take 28,.
It's 28 times the size ofinfrastructure you need for a
(12:58):
car than for a bicycle.
It's not just about parking youcan't park 28 bicycles on the
side of a car but also the carlanes and everything.
Everything that comes with acar infrastructure is 28 times
as big One car, 28 bicycles.
So if you can make that jumpyour efficiency also with town
planners or cities that arecongested, the benefits are
enormous.
(13:18):
But you got to connect the dotsBecause if you have the bicycle
infrastructure not wellconnected to your public
transport, it's not going towork.
Then nobody's going to do it.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
So, sebastian, you've talked about two things the
flatness of the Netherlands andthe number of trains that are
out there.
We don't have.
Well, we have SkyTrain in Metro.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Vancouver, beautiful SkyTrain.
Translink is doing well.
It's a beautiful thing.
I like the SkyTrain.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
But when you think about the whole province, you
arrive here as the ConsulGeneral and you're aware of all
these things.
With this kind of experience,what observations do you have
about how we might do some ofthe same things, knowing that we
have mountains, hills, biggerspaces, fewer trains?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah Well, you have a few challenges and a few
opportunities here that aredifferent from where I'm from.
So because you have more space,it's easier to build
infrastructure somehow right.
So you can have more terraintrack because you have more
space.
We don't have it.
We have to be all veryefficient on very small plots of
(14:32):
land.
So you can do more and you cansee it also in your buses.
Your buses are big and yourbuses in vancouver also have a.
You can put your bicycle infront of the bus on a rack.
Fantastic stuff.
We don't have stuff.
Also, the modality with thebuses is quite impressive.
I find the bus system inVancouver quite well organized.
I take the bus a lot and evenon Google Maps you can see when
(14:54):
the buses come.
It works.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I know some shuttle buses between regions have
accommodation for bicycles andsome of them have a trailer in
the back that they can take abicycle the one from Worcester
to Vancouver.
Yeah, exactly, talk more aboutregional transit.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Well, there's your opportunity, because nobody's
going to ride a bicycle fromhere to Kelowna, right From
Vancouver to Kelowna.
Nobody's going to do thatunless you are a mammal,
middle-aged man in Lycra and youlike working out which I might
want to do one day because I amone of those then it's fun.
But for transport, if you talkjust normal transportation,
people going from A to Bnobody's going to take the
(15:28):
bicycle from here to Kelowna, soyou need the bus, the train,
the car to actually do that.
So then you're aiming for areally healthy and good and
active transportation, at leastfor the last mile or for the
local area where you are.
And if you have a reallysustainable way of doing the
bigger distances, then great.
But that opportunity is notalways there.
So then you have to think cars,so that the buses have racks
(15:51):
and trailers that you can putyour bicycle on is really
awesome.
That's something we don't havein the Netherlands.
It's a big opportunity, it'sgreat that you have it and it
works.
So in some ways we are a bitahead of you, but we had an
easier environment.
The Netherlands is maybe what?
One and a half times VancouverIsland in size, and we have what
(16:11):
?
17 million people, 18 almost sowe're all densely packed
together, so our bicycle lanesdon't have to go for hundreds of
kilometers, because then you'rein Germany or in Poland or in
France or in Spain.
So we don't have that forhundreds of kilometer, because
then you're in Germany or inPoland or in France or in Spain.
So we don't have that, eventhough also there you see,
european, we have a really densenetwork of bicycle lanes and
(16:34):
it's nodes and it's awell-structured system and
that's also spreading to.
The Belgians have it too.
So we're connecting the two.
So we now have we call bicyclehighways, almost door
fietsroutes, which is kind ofhow would you translate that
Thru-go bicycle routes, thatkind of more long distance for
people that are wanting to golonger distance.
(16:54):
You can go from town to town,it's all connected.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
I want to go back to how you get there from here, and
you mentioned the pushback, andthen you said there was data
that shows, and we found thesame thing here.
When a bike route goes in, it'squite typical for the adjacent
businesses to scream horror,it's still.
We're still fighting this outin vancouver on commercial drive
, and then the data shows thatthey actually do better.
Is there other data that showsthe benefits of of cycling that
(17:33):
somehow help tip the balance andwin public opinion?
Or is it just a matter ofhaving the courage to put
something on the ground and thenlet people see and experience
it for themselves?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, it's the courage of having people
experience it for themselves andthen demanding it from their
cities, from their towns, fromtheir councillors, from their
mayors.
Please do something about this,because we want more of this.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So, other than these kind of exhortations for change
in public policy, are thereDutch businesses?
I know part of your job is topromote Dutch businesses in
exchange of commerce and so on,but are there levels of
expertise or new technology inthis field that you feel we
could benefit from that youalready have in the Netherlands?
(18:18):
I mean, you mentioned the bikegarages at the train stations,
but other things?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah, definitely.
Now let me just first jump alittle bit back.
So modern diplomacy is reallyabout building ecosystem,
especially between alliedcountries.
So I'm not here only to sellDutch product.
That would be the old stylediplomatic way.
We really want to innovatetogether.
We want to get to thosesolutions together.
So if there's a really goodCanadian company that does
(18:44):
business in the Netherlands, Ithink we both profit, or the
other way around, I don't reallycare, it needs to happen.
And also in the transportationsystem, same thing.
There's some really goodthinkers out here and in the
Netherlands.
If you connect them, you get amore beautiful product.
Actually, to continue on thatnote for a little bit before I
get to your question, george Liu, who is coming to the Act for
(19:07):
Active Transportation Summit, isworking for the Amsterdam
municipality, but he's actuallya Vancouverite before, so he's
Canadian.
Chris Bruntlett, who is aVancouverite before, is now in
the city of Delft in theNetherlands running the Dutch
cycling embassy, like theCanadian becoming totally Dutch,
like super Dutch, wonderful,super Dutch so, and actually
(19:30):
promoting this now.
So, and that's the kind ofthing you want to happen,
because that's where you startto innovate together.
There is, if there's researchinstitutes and universities that
kind of collaborate on thesethings.
That's what you want to happen.
So that's actually also as weare, as a consulate, also
stepping into this ecosystem.
That's what we're hoping to getto, where we get people to talk
to each other across the ocean,across the big land that we
(19:52):
have between us, but startexchanging ideas.
And there's so many revolutionsgoing on at the moment which
will make active and sustainabletransportation more attainable,
and some of them are small,some of them are big.
The big one, of course, is theelectric bicycle, the e-bike.
There's no more excuse for you,if you live in Vancouver, to
(20:17):
not take a bicycle because it'sso hilly.
So what?
It's hilly.
If you have an e-bike, you canget on your e-bike and get
across those hills, and thatwould apply to any town in BC,
that's right, that's right.
So the e-bike, although they'restill expensive, so it's more.
(20:37):
It's maybe not the elite elite,but you have to be.
You have to earn a pretty goodbuck to to to buy a nice e-bike.
But the second hand market,second hand market is coming up
because the first generation iscoming on to facebook,
marketplace and what have you,and craigslist, so you can get
there.
You can get there.
I've seen really good to offer,so e-bikes are becoming
(20:57):
attainable.
Other things, um well, just onthe attainable e-bikes are
becoming attainable.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Other things.
Well, just on the attainablee-bikes, just a footnote there,
the city of Saanich has had ane-bike rebate program.
Depending on your income, youcould get a subsidy to buy an
e-bike, and UBC has justpublished the results of a
survey to find out what theimpact was, and they were very
positive about a lot of cartrips replaced.
What the impact was, and theywere very positive about a lot
(21:22):
of car trips replaced.
Yeah, nine out of ten of thepeople who got the major subsidy
would not have been able toafford an e-bike otherwise.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So this is something again the bc cycling coalition
is pushing for and they go andlook at your bike share system
really well done.
There are stations everywhereover vancouver.
I haven't seen in othermunicipalities as much, but in
Vancouver it really strikes me.
If I want to just get on abicycle, I can get the app out.
Usually within a kilometer Ican get to a bicycle Fantastic.
(21:51):
Some of them are electric evenReally great and you see the
trucks coming by to load them in, to make sure that they're all
maintained, bring them into theworkshop and put them back out
again.
That's a really strongproposition for a better way of
transporting your people in yourcity while saving making sure
(22:12):
there's no congestion, savingsome bucks for the people that
maybe have to save some bucks orwant to save some bucks, and
keeping people healthy.
It's also relieving somepressure on the health care
system.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
When you ride your bicycle around Vancouver, when
you're not out for a seriousride with your Lycra, do you
wear fancy clothes?
Do you just wear ordinaryclothes?
Or do you not even bicyclearound Vancouver?
You said you go on the bus.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
No, I take the bus occasionally.
I prefer the bicycle and Isometimes unfortunately have to
take the car because of thedistances and the time that is
to me.
So that always irritates me.
I don't have the time to go onthe bike.
I'm always a bit frustrated.
I rode my bicycle this morning.
I put on my jeans and I ridethe bicycle to work and I change
(22:59):
at work, put my suit on orwhatever I need to wear that day
.
I have a little backpack on myback where my clothes are in
Works, fine, and you know what?
We don't melt in the rain.
So when it rains or even whenit snows, there's gear out there
which you can put on your rainpants or your rain over shoes
(23:19):
and then you're fine.
You get home, you're happy andriding in the rain actually
people don't know that.
People that are driving in acar all the time do not know
that the experience of riding inthe rain is actually fun.
It's only that transition fromthat time when you are still
inside and you look at theweather outside you go oh, it's
(23:40):
raining.
That's when you kind of don'twant to go.
And then also the first maybetwo minutes when you're in it,
when you first start getting, ohit's raining, but actually,
when you're in it and you feelthose little specks of rain on
your face, it's actually nice.
It's actually really nice.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
One of the things I always think when I'm riding in
the rain and I can see people inthe cars going by, I think do
they know that I'm warm and dryand having a good time?
Probably not.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
No, they don't.
They won't believe you whenthey tell you.
There's one thing, though,before you go on to the next
question, there's one thing,though.
That's different from me herethan riding in many cities in
Europe, not just the Netherlandsis I'm a bit more scared of the
traffic here, so I reallycommend the city of Vancouver of
(24:28):
having worked out lanes wherebicycles are more safe.
So I know my routes.
Now I know how to get from myhome to my office and taking
routes that are fairly trafficlow or even have a separate bike
lane.
But in the beginning, when Ididn't know, I sometimes made a
mistake to take the wrong road,and then it's just scary because
(24:50):
people are not as used tobicycles out here.
So I can't rely on a car whenI'm passing, when I'm riding my
car, car passing me taking aright, I can't rely on that
person to look over the shoulderto check whether there's a
bicycle there.
That's the first thing youlearn when you're taking
driver's lessons in theNetherlands.
You have to look over yourshoulder to make sure there's no
(25:10):
bicycle, look in your mirrorand look over your shoulder to
make sure there's no bicyclewhen you're turning right.
Now, you can't rely on thathere.
So I'm wearing a helmet here,which is the way.
More is the law.
But my wife always screams atme when I try it out too,
because I'm done, we don't do it, but it's also, it makes sense.
After the first few times I'mlike, yeah, I do want to wear my
helmet here Because it's just,it feels a little.
(25:33):
And that's where I think there'san improvement to be made, like
making people aware thatthere's different modes of
transport.
People that are in a car,there's people on scooters there
, people on bicycles there.
Those people on bicycles and onscooters need to behave,
because if they irritate thecars drivers, then it's going to
get worse, and that's what yousee sometimes.
I'm irritated when a bicyclerider takes the Granville Bridge
(25:55):
, because you will just make thecar drivers very angry, and
it's not good for me either,because then they will look at
all bicycles go, oh you, andthen beep bicycles.
So you got to be sensible aboutthis.
So you got to educate eachother and share the road, but
then make it in a way thatbicycles understand.
Okay, this road is really forcars.
(26:15):
I should not be here.
Let me just go a different way.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So that brings me to.
We're going to wrap this up ina minute, but we've talked quite
a bit about Vancouver and theplaces that have a higher level
of bike lanes and protection andbikes on buses and so on, but a
small community where theprevailing necessity, let's say,
is that everybody's in theircar on the roads and the roads
(26:40):
are not designed for cyclists atall.
Do you have any advice forpeople in those smaller
communities, what they can do,based on the experience in the
netherlands of converting from apretty much all car culture to
a pretty much all cycle culture?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
yeah, um, I think think it maybe takes groups like
the BC Cycle Coalition andHubCycle to kind of work out
maybe programs first where theycan have people experience being
on a bicycle going from A to Band negotiating with the
municipality hey, can you closethis road off?
(27:18):
We want to do a bike to schoolweek.
Can we just try this out forone day a year to kind of have
people get in touch with it?
Because you first need thatbase of people saying, okay,
this is feasible and I will doit once it's there, because no
policymaker is going to put invery expensive infrastructure if
the policymaker doesn't believethat that it's going to pay off
(27:41):
.
Yeah, yeah and then and then andthen maybe you know you can
take the back alleys.
First, if the, if the, the citydoesn't have the bicycle agency
, you can take the alleys.
That's the nice thing aboutcity infrastructure in canada
usually you have the major roadand then you have the small back
alley which you can, which canwork for a while and that can
(28:02):
get people on the bicycle, andthen you actually really just
have to lobby your decisionmaker, your town planners.
Well, speaking of back alleys,the town planners that look
further ahead and who talk tothe developers of area.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
On the matter of driving back alleys, of course
sometimes people bail out andride on the.
On the matter of of uh, drivingback alleys, of course
sometimes people bail out andride on the sidewalk, which
creates problems withpedestrians yeah and is not a
good idea.
However, I just wanted to askyou about in amsterdam, with all
those uh cyclists drivingaround, there are conflicts with
pedestrians and uh, what?
(28:40):
What's your, your thought, whatare your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
yeah, it can get.
It can sometimes even get ugly.
Um, not just in amsterdam.
There's this, this intersectionin the hague, which always
fascinates me.
There's an internet section inthe hague, very close to the
town hall, where tram goesthrough tram, tram line.
There's cars coming through,not many, only taxis and buses,
and then there's bicycles andpedestrians and there's no signs
(29:05):
on the road, there's no lines,there's no dotted lines,
straight lines, nothing, nothing.
And it's a big intersection.
The first time you see it it'sintimidating, it's scary, peter,
you know what research saysit's safer, fewer accidents.
You know why?
Well, people pay attention.
They don't rely on signs andstuff.
(29:28):
And now it's my way, so I canjust go 100 miles an hour
through this area.
No, they have to actually payattention themselves.
And it works.
And the first time I saw it Ithought it was intimidating.
I was like this is scary, Ineed to get from here to the
other side of the road.
I'm Dutch, I was born there andraised.
But you know, it worked and itseems to work.
(29:50):
Data shows it works.
And Amsterdam it's usuallypeople that are not accustomed
to the way of moving.
So the tourists that walk on abicycle, road Bicycle of moving.
So the tourists that walk on abicycle road, bicycle paths in
the Netherlands are red.
They're very visible.
They're red, red tarmac, redasphalt.
So it's quite clear toeverybody who knows it that
(30:11):
you're walking on a bicycle pathand that might not be the
smartest thing to do.
It's like walking on a highwaywhile walking your dog.
You don't do that right.
You don't walk your dog on thehighway, so why walk with your
suitcase on a red asphaltbicycle lane?
The thing is, people that comein as a tourist don't know this.
You can't blame them becausenobody told them.
So they usually find out thefirst 15 minutes that they're
(30:33):
there because there's bicyclecoming by and they first ring
jing, jing, jing, jing withtheir little bell on the bicycle
.
Of course tourist doesn't knowwhat that means, keeps walking.
Then you get a little bit of aDutch directness thrown at your
head in verbal, verbal, not verynice way, because it's
unfortunately who we are.
We're quite direct, but thenyou know.
(30:54):
Then you know you figure out ohwait a minute, this maybe.
Figure out.
Oh, wait a minute, this maybeis not my place, and that
usually goes okay.
But you have to like and alsoyou have the youngsters Like I
was a student in Amsterdam.
I was very irresponsible.
I had a very irresponsible gamewhich I maybe should not talk
about on the podcast.
I was studying, I was living onone side of the Amsterdam, I
had classes on the other side ofAmsterdam.
(31:14):
My game was to go from one sideof Amsterdam to the other side
of Amsterdam without stopping.
Now that, peter, is a veryirresponsible bad idea.
It went okay because I wasquite agile and the police
stopped me once and said really,what are you doing?
I'm like, yeah, maybe this was abit yeah, but the fact is it's
(31:39):
kind of organic.
The good thing about it is it'skind of organic.
The good thing about it is it'skind of organic.
The bicycles and the cars theyknow each other and they
organically move with each other.
If you know that a car istaking a left, as a bicycle, you
kind of tail because you knowthat car.
When the car is going, it'ssafe, so you can kind of tail.
Dutch people do that.
It's organic.
And when you approach as a carcoming and you see you always
check is there anything aroundit?
(32:00):
Is there a bicycle around it ormoped?
You know it's an organic wave.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, it works so I I don't think we want to go on
the record saying that therecommendation from the consul
general no, it isn't, it wasstupid, I told you no, no, not
that you drive around withoutstopping, but that you take away
all the traffic signs and letpeople just sort it out.
There is an example of that inVancouver, by the way, which is
Granville Island.
(32:25):
There are no traffic signsthere, and the pedestrians and
cars and cyclists all work itout by being more careful.
Well, we're happy to acceptyour label of us as frontrunners
in anything regarding cyclingand would love to stay in touch
and encourage you to join inwith any of these advocacy
(32:48):
movements and help us achieveeven part of what you've done in
the Netherlands, which is suchan inspiration for us all.
So thanks so much, sebastian.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
It's a passionate subject for me, so I like
talking about it.
Thanks so much for theopportunity, much appreciated.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Thanks for listening to Bike Sense and supporting
safe cycling in BC.
Please subscribe so you don'tmiss an episode.
The BC Cycling Coalition relieson your support to continue our
work.
The BC Cycling Coalition relieson your support to continue our
work.
Please consider becoming amember and adding your voice to
(33:28):
the call for safer and moreaccessible cycling in BC.
Special thanks to our sponsorsBC Hydro, richards Buell, sutton
, icbc Moto and the Bicycle Pro.
Welcome to Bike Sense , the BC Cycling Coalition's
podcast, where we talk about allthings related to cycling
advocacy, education and safetyin BC.
I'm your host, peter Ladner.
I'm the chair of the board ofthe BC Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
I hope you enjoy the show.
(00:25):
My guest today is SebastianMeijerschmidt, who is the Consul
General for the Kingdom of theNetherlands, and we are going to
talk about what BC looks likefrom the point of view of
someone who grew up totallyimmersed in a cycling culture
and what the Netherlands perhapscould offer us, and a bunch of
(00:49):
other stuff.
But before we do, I'm justgoing to explain how he ended up
on this podcast.
I was at a conference about thefuture of transportation in
cities and it was almostentirely preoccupied with EVs,
charging stations, regulationsand so on.
And right at the end I stood upand said well, you know, that's
great, but there's also a wholeother world of active
(01:11):
transportation, particularlyempowered and opened up and
expanded by the arrival andpopularity of e-bikes.
And after I sat down, a mancalled Martin van Ouden came up
to me, said I'm with the Dutchconsulate and we are very
interested in this topic.
So that led me to a party atSebastian's place to celebrate
(01:32):
the birthday of the King of theNetherlands, the King and Queen,
or just the King Just the King,just the King.
Okay, but the Queen could havebeen there too.
Anyways, and Martin Sebastianhas also stepped up to support
the Active Transportation Summitthat the BC Cycling Coalition
is organizing in collaborationwith the Ministry of
(01:53):
Transportation andInfrastructure, june 18th 19th
the Anvil Center.
So welcome to the podcast,sebastian.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Thank you, I'm very excited.
I'm very excited.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Peter, before we get into the issues, I just want to
find out a little bit about you.
And first question I've gotfour questions.
The first one is can youremember your first cycling
experience or your first timeyou got on a bicycle?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
oh you know, was it just well, the dutch people
bored with cycles on the feet,so I don't know.
Okay, so right in the right outof the womb, yeah, you know, we
, we, we get on tricycles andlike early stage, early, early,
early, early stage, so we play,we play outside, like in my
childhood.
Might be different now, I don'tknow how it is now because I'm
(02:41):
old, but my childhood we gotoutside like right immediately
on tricycles and then you getthe little bicycle with a side
wheel to support you, but youwant to get rid of those as
quick as possible.
And then by the time I was likefour, like early four, I was
riding on, you know, without theside wheels, on my little
bicycle through the neighborhood.
(03:08):
So let me ask you, not justnecessarily about cycling, but
have you any other specificmemory from your childhood that
you would say defines you Well?
I think my youth, which alsokind of shaped part of my
character, was reallycharacterized by a lot of
freedom.
You get on your little bicycleand I was like five or six and
my mom and dad would not see me.
I would just morning come backfrom school, I would say, bye,
I'll get on my little bicycle.
I was like five or six and mymom and dad would not see me.
I would just morning, like,come back from school, I would
say, bye, I'll get on my littlebicycle, I would go outside and
(03:30):
I would play outside all day andthe only thing I needed to do
was back home before dark.
That's the only thing, and thenwe'd have dinner or whatever.
But so so, and that's really Ilove that, because also the
towns were shaped like,especially in the 1970s.
The town environments wereshaped to really cater also to
kids and to cyclinginfrastructure.
(03:52):
You could ride around in awhole neighborhood without
feeling unsafe.
My parents weren't worried.
I think today's parents maybeincluding myself, are a bit more
helicopter parents.
We're way more on top of thesafety and security of our
children.
They're a bit more scared andanxious about that.
Back then I could just gooutside and play and that
(04:14):
involved bicycles and one of thethings that we would make noise
.
We'd get these little.
You know how you get thesethings where yogurt is put in
like they're plasticky, if youcut them up and you take a peg
and you put it on your spokes.
Yeah, and it makes a lot ofnoise.
And when you're six, sevenyears old, that's fantastic.
And if you have like 12 of them, you make a lot of noise.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
No, I have to just throw a plug in here for Yutai
Lee's video that he did aboutwhy kids don't walk to school
anymore.
It's about 12 minutes long,it's had 1.3 million downloads
and it gets into that wholequestion you were just talking
about.
Back to you is there a specificproject you're proud of that
you've been involved with at anypoint in your career?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
There's many because I happen to love what I do.
The fact that I get paid forthis stuff is amazing.
There's many things I get to dowhich is fantastic, um, and
some of them are also bicyclerelated.
Uh, we supported the bicyclemayor of cape town.
My former posting was in capetown, south africa, and issues
around public transportation andlocal transportation and active
(05:19):
transportation are differentthere from here.
Um, and this guy was, and alsothis predecessor, the woman,
lebo Gang, and since both werekind of amazing people, they
work in the townships to teachpeople how to ride the bicycles
and that's more healthy becauseyou find more people that are
having an unhealthy lifestyle.
It's cheaper.
(05:39):
You find a lot of people thatdon't have the money and public
transportation into town issometimes a quarter of what
people earn and it's more fun.
And they made such an impactwith just these projects.
So the bicycle mayor that kindof advocates also towards the
municipality and towards thecity, like guys, if you make the
infrastructure, people will beless reliant on public transport
(06:03):
or cars and it will be betterfor all of us and and it was,
they were very passionate peopleand for us to put a little bit
of a money with that to makethem work better and then also
support them in the, in theinfrastructure and also in the
in the governance fantasticcould you explain what?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
what is a bicycle mayor?
That's not like the real mayorwho happens to be a cyclist.
It's somebody who says they'rea bicycle mayor.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
No, no, bicycle mayors are more or less, yeah,
they're like ambassadors forbicycle riding.
There's an organization calledBikes B-Y-C-S in the Netherlands
and they have come up with theconcept, so the bicycle mayor of
Amsterdam Fietsburgermeester isthe Dutch word, if you have any
Dutch listeners and theystarted in the Netherlands to
(06:49):
kind of advocate more bicyclinginfrastructure and it's spread
around the world.
It reads everywhere there isone in Toronto, there's one in
Victoria, there's one inWaterloo, not one in Vancouver.
Yet We'll get there.
I'm here now.
I'm here now.
I'm here now.
So it's gonna happen.
(07:12):
It's gonna happen.
I was gonna ask you what?
What can we learn?
Don't worry, okay, later.
So that was really, uh, it was,it was a low-hanging fruit for
us to, because it serves ourglobal challenges and our global
ambitions for the sustainabledevelopment goal and and
supporting uh, our adaptationtowards climate change and also
mitigating the, the effects ofclimate change.
So it serves a bigger goal, butalso serves the, the goal of of
development cooperation, whereyou want people that are less
fortunate to have money to do,to go in different ways of
(07:35):
transportation, to be able toactually go from hb uh in a
sustainable manner, and so itserves so many.
And then also it's a socialcohesion.
I did a tweet like if peopleare on x, still you can have all
the kinds of debates, whetherthat's a good or a bad thing.
I'm not going there, but uh, Idid a tweet in cape town level
hung was her name, the bicyclemayor there and she explained
(07:57):
really eloquently what riding abicycle for for a so-called
black woman in cape town meansand how you also meet other
people.
It's a social thing, it's asocial fabric thing, it's a
transportation thing, it's ahealth thing and it's a money
thing.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So yeah, quite interesting so is cycling,
promoting cycling.
Is that a policy of the Dutchgovernment?
I mean you.
You stepped up to support our,our active transportation summit
.
Yeah, is that part of yourmandate to get people onto
bicycles wherever there's aDutch consul general?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
well, you know, we we aspire still to be bicycle
country number one, but we alsoaspire to help achieve the
sustainable development goal.
So, yeah, it's definitely partof our mandate.
Also, we really as alliedcountries like Canada and the
(08:56):
Netherlands.
We really share norms andvalues.
We share an outlook on theworld in many aspects, so we are
natural partners to worktogether to improve each other
and inspire each other.
And one of the ways to improveand inspire each other is
looking at mobility, and there'smany things that we can learn
from the Canadians.
In many areas, many things youexcel and the Dutch can learn a
(09:19):
lot.
There's a few areas where Istart being very arrogantly
bragging about what we can bringto the table, and when it comes
down to active transportationand mobility, I think that's an
area where we excel, but at thesame time, it's an easier win
for us.
Our country is flat.
Our mountains are called thewind.
(09:41):
There's no mountains, it's allflat.
So there's a song called theDutch Mountains.
You might want to look it up onYouTube one day.
It's actually about the wind.
So there's no mountains, soit's easier to ride your bicycle
right and the infrastructure isthere.
It wasn't always there.
People think that it was alwayslike that?
Forget it.
Look at pictures of Amsterdamin the 1970s.
(10:05):
It was infected.
It's just too many carseverywhere and people were stuck
in traffic the whole day.
It looked horrible and there'sa lot of pictures on it If you
go Google it.
We transformed that in a matterof one and a half decades.
How did that happen?
Oh, it was a bit of arevolution and not everybody was
happy at the time.
There was a lot of opposition,especially from people owning
(10:28):
shops and people thinking thatyou need to be able to park your
car closer to the shop toactually be able to sell
something, because people willnot carry it otherwise to their
bicycle and get home you knowwhat research shows otherwise
through their bicycle and gethome.
You know what research shows?
Research shows if you make anarea car-free but make it really
(10:50):
accessible by both publictransport and by foot and by
bicycle, your revenues go up.
They don't go down, they go up.
As long as you make it theconnectedness and intermodality
and that's very important, theintermodality if you get that
right, then more people willflog in and go to your business.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Explain more what you mean by intermodality.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
So it's really important to look at transport
not just from a single mode oftransport point of view.
If you connect the dots reallywell, more people will be able
to move from A to B in a waythat's more sustainable, more
healthy and more efficient.
People get there quicker andhappier.
So that means if you have abicycle infrastructure that's
(11:30):
really well connected to a traininfrastructure.
Research has shown in theNetherlands that people that
take the train the numbers havegone up substantially
substantially, like tens ofpercentages because they started
building really good bicycleparkings where the bicycles were
safe, and then the trainstations also started to appear
(11:53):
repair shops.
So if you get to the trainstation you happen to have a
flat tire, you don't need towalk home for eight or nine
kilometers because you have arepair shop right there.
You come back from your day ofwork, you get out of the train,
you do that last five, sixkilometers.
Your bicycle is there.
It's repaired for you.
Also, what happened in theNetherlands is we have our
(12:13):
public transportation,especially the trains.
They've started their ownbicycle rent-out schemes, which
is called the publictransportation bicycle, the
OV-feets in Dutch.
They're yellow and blue.
You see them everywhere.
You get to the train station.
The major train stations allhave them.
You have a subscription, youhave a card, you can just get a
bicycle.
If you don't have asubscription, you just pay and
(12:36):
you arrive there and there'shundreds of them so you can
choose one.
You get on your bicycle and yougo to where you need to go.
And especially thatintermodality, if the last five
to 10 kilometers, if you can dothat on a bicycle, it saves a
lot of congestion.
It saves a lot ofinfrastructure for parking of
cars, which take 28,.
It's 28 times the size ofinfrastructure you need for a
(12:58):
car than for a bicycle.
It's not just about parking youcan't park 28 bicycles on the
side of a car but also the carlanes and everything.
Everything that comes with acar infrastructure is 28 times
as big One car, 28 bicycles.
So if you can make that jumpyour efficiency also with town
planners or cities that arecongested, the benefits are
enormous.
(13:18):
But you got to connect the dotsBecause if you have the bicycle
infrastructure not wellconnected to your public
transport, it's not going towork.
Then nobody's going to do it.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
So, sebastian, you've talked about two things the
flatness of the Netherlands andthe number of trains that are
out there.
We don't have.
Well, we have SkyTrain in Metro.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Vancouver, beautiful SkyTrain.
Translink is doing well.
It's a beautiful thing.
I like the SkyTrain.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
But when you think about the whole province, you
arrive here as the ConsulGeneral and you're aware of all
these things.
With this kind of experience,what observations do you have
about how we might do some ofthe same things, knowing that we
have mountains, hills, biggerspaces, fewer trains?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah Well, you have a few challenges and a few
opportunities here that aredifferent from where I'm from.
So because you have more space,it's easier to build
infrastructure somehow right.
So you can have more terraintrack because you have more
space.
We don't have it.
We have to be all veryefficient on very small plots of
(14:32):
land.
So you can do more and you cansee it also in your buses.
Your buses are big and yourbuses in vancouver also have a.
You can put your bicycle infront of the bus on a rack.
Fantastic stuff.
We don't have stuff.
Also, the modality with thebuses is quite impressive.
I find the bus system inVancouver quite well organized.
I take the bus a lot and evenon Google Maps you can see when
(14:54):
the buses come.
It works.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I know some shuttle buses between regions have
accommodation for bicycles andsome of them have a trailer in
the back that they can take abicycle the one from Worcester
to Vancouver.
Yeah, exactly, talk more aboutregional transit.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Well, there's your opportunity, because nobody's
going to ride a bicycle fromhere to Kelowna, right From
Vancouver to Kelowna.
Nobody's going to do thatunless you are a mammal,
middle-aged man in Lycra and youlike working out which I might
want to do one day because I amone of those then it's fun.
But for transport, if you talkjust normal transportation,
people going from A to Bnobody's going to take the
(15:28):
bicycle from here to Kelowna, soyou need the bus, the train,
the car to actually do that.
So then you're aiming for areally healthy and good and
active transportation, at leastfor the last mile or for the
local area where you are.
And if you have a reallysustainable way of doing the
bigger distances, then great.
But that opportunity is notalways there.
So then you have to think cars,so that the buses have racks
(15:51):
and trailers that you can putyour bicycle on is really
awesome.
That's something we don't havein the Netherlands.
It's a big opportunity, it'sgreat that you have it and it
works.
So in some ways we are a bitahead of you, but we had an
easier environment.
The Netherlands is maybe what?
One and a half times VancouverIsland in size, and we have what
(16:11):
?
17 million people, 18 almost sowe're all densely packed
together, so our bicycle lanesdon't have to go for hundreds of
kilometers, because then you'rein Germany or in Poland or in
France or in Spain.
So we don't have that forhundreds of kilometer, because
then you're in Germany or inPoland or in France or in Spain.
So we don't have that, eventhough also there you see,
european, we have a really densenetwork of bicycle lanes and
(16:34):
it's nodes and it's awell-structured system and
that's also spreading to.
The Belgians have it too.
So we're connecting the two.
So we now have we call bicyclehighways, almost door
fietsroutes, which is kind ofhow would you translate that
Thru-go bicycle routes, thatkind of more long distance for
people that are wanting to golonger distance.
(16:54):
You can go from town to town,it's all connected.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
I want to go back to how you get there from here, and
you mentioned the pushback, andthen you said there was data
that shows, and we found thesame thing here.
When a bike route goes in, it'squite typical for the adjacent
businesses to scream horror,it's still.
We're still fighting this outin vancouver on commercial drive
, and then the data shows thatthey actually do better.
Is there other data that showsthe benefits of of cycling that
(17:33):
somehow help tip the balance andwin public opinion?
Or is it just a matter ofhaving the courage to put
something on the ground and thenlet people see and experience
it for themselves?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, it's the courage of having people
experience it for themselves andthen demanding it from their
cities, from their towns, fromtheir councillors, from their
mayors.
Please do something about this,because we want more of this.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So, other than these kind of exhortations for change
in public policy, are thereDutch businesses?
I know part of your job is topromote Dutch businesses in
exchange of commerce and so on,but are there levels of
expertise or new technology inthis field that you feel we
could benefit from that youalready have in the Netherlands?
(18:18):
I mean, you mentioned the bikegarages at the train stations,
but other things?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah, definitely.
Now let me just first jump alittle bit back.
So modern diplomacy is reallyabout building ecosystem,
especially between alliedcountries.
So I'm not here only to sellDutch product.
That would be the old stylediplomatic way.
We really want to innovatetogether.
We want to get to thosesolutions together.
So if there's a really goodCanadian company that does
(18:44):
business in the Netherlands, Ithink we both profit, or the
other way around, I don't reallycare, it needs to happen.
And also in the transportationsystem, same thing.
There's some really goodthinkers out here and in the
Netherlands.
If you connect them, you get amore beautiful product.
Actually, to continue on thatnote for a little bit before I
get to your question, george Liu, who is coming to the Act for
(19:07):
Active Transportation Summit, isworking for the Amsterdam
municipality, but he's actuallya Vancouverite before, so he's
Canadian.
Chris Bruntlett, who is aVancouverite before, is now in
the city of Delft in theNetherlands running the Dutch
cycling embassy, like theCanadian becoming totally Dutch,
like super Dutch, wonderful,super Dutch so, and actually
(19:30):
promoting this now.
So, and that's the kind ofthing you want to happen,
because that's where you startto innovate together.
There is, if there's researchinstitutes and universities that
kind of collaborate on thesethings.
That's what you want to happen.
So that's actually also as weare, as a consulate, also
stepping into this ecosystem.
That's what we're hoping to getto, where we get people to talk
to each other across the ocean,across the big land that we
(19:52):
have between us, but startexchanging ideas.
And there's so many revolutionsgoing on at the moment which
will make active and sustainabletransportation more attainable,
and some of them are small,some of them are big.
The big one, of course, is theelectric bicycle, the e-bike.
There's no more excuse for you,if you live in Vancouver, to
(20:17):
not take a bicycle because it'sso hilly.
So what?
It's hilly.
If you have an e-bike, you canget on your e-bike and get
across those hills, and thatwould apply to any town in BC,
that's right, that's right.
So the e-bike, although they'restill expensive, so it's more.
(20:37):
It's maybe not the elite elite,but you have to be.
You have to earn a pretty goodbuck to to to buy a nice e-bike.
But the second hand market,second hand market is coming up
because the first generation iscoming on to facebook,
marketplace and what have you,and craigslist, so you can get
there.
You can get there.
I've seen really good to offer,so e-bikes are becoming
(20:57):
attainable.
Other things, um well, just onthe attainable e-bikes are
becoming attainable.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Other things.
Well, just on the attainablee-bikes, just a footnote there,
the city of Saanich has had ane-bike rebate program.
Depending on your income, youcould get a subsidy to buy an
e-bike, and UBC has justpublished the results of a
survey to find out what theimpact was, and they were very
positive about a lot of cartrips replaced.
What the impact was, and theywere very positive about a lot
(21:22):
of car trips replaced.
Yeah, nine out of ten of thepeople who got the major subsidy
would not have been able toafford an e-bike otherwise.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So this is something again the bc cycling coalition
is pushing for and they go andlook at your bike share system
really well done.
There are stations everywhereover vancouver.
I haven't seen in othermunicipalities as much, but in
Vancouver it really strikes me.
If I want to just get on abicycle, I can get the app out.
Usually within a kilometer Ican get to a bicycle Fantastic.
(21:51):
Some of them are electric evenReally great and you see the
trucks coming by to load them in, to make sure that they're all
maintained, bring them into theworkshop and put them back out
again.
That's a really strongproposition for a better way of
transporting your people in yourcity while saving making sure
(22:12):
there's no congestion, savingsome bucks for the people that
maybe have to save some bucks orwant to save some bucks, and
keeping people healthy.
It's also relieving somepressure on the health care
system.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
When you ride your bicycle around Vancouver, when
you're not out for a seriousride with your Lycra, do you
wear fancy clothes?
Do you just wear ordinaryclothes?
Or do you not even bicyclearound Vancouver?
You said you go on the bus.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
No, I take the bus occasionally.
I prefer the bicycle and Isometimes unfortunately have to
take the car because of thedistances and the time that is
to me.
So that always irritates me.
I don't have the time to go onthe bike.
I'm always a bit frustrated.
I rode my bicycle this morning.
I put on my jeans and I ridethe bicycle to work and I change
(22:59):
at work, put my suit on orwhatever I need to wear that day
.
I have a little backpack on myback where my clothes are in
Works, fine, and you know what?
We don't melt in the rain.
So when it rains or even whenit snows, there's gear out there
which you can put on your rainpants or your rain over shoes
(23:19):
and then you're fine.
You get home, you're happy andriding in the rain actually
people don't know that.
People that are driving in acar all the time do not know
that the experience of riding inthe rain is actually fun.
It's only that transition fromthat time when you are still
inside and you look at theweather outside you go oh, it's
(23:40):
raining.
That's when you kind of don'twant to go.
And then also the first maybetwo minutes when you're in it,
when you first start getting, ohit's raining, but actually,
when you're in it and you feelthose little specks of rain on
your face, it's actually nice.
It's actually really nice.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
One of the things I always think when I'm riding in
the rain and I can see people inthe cars going by, I think do
they know that I'm warm and dryand having a good time?
Probably not.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
No, they don't.
They won't believe you whenthey tell you.
There's one thing, though,before you go on to the next
question, there's one thing,though.
That's different from me herethan riding in many cities in
Europe, not just the Netherlandsis I'm a bit more scared of the
traffic here, so I reallycommend the city of Vancouver of
(24:28):
having worked out lanes wherebicycles are more safe.
So I know my routes.
Now I know how to get from myhome to my office and taking
routes that are fairly trafficlow or even have a separate bike
lane.
But in the beginning, when Ididn't know, I sometimes made a
mistake to take the wrong road,and then it's just scary because
(24:50):
people are not as used tobicycles out here.
So I can't rely on a car whenI'm passing, when I'm riding my
car, car passing me taking aright, I can't rely on that
person to look over the shoulderto check whether there's a
bicycle there.
That's the first thing youlearn when you're taking
driver's lessons in theNetherlands.
You have to look over yourshoulder to make sure there's no
(25:10):
bicycle, look in your mirrorand look over your shoulder to
make sure there's no bicyclewhen you're turning right.
Now, you can't rely on thathere.
So I'm wearing a helmet here,which is the way.
More is the law.
But my wife always screams atme when I try it out too,
because I'm done, we don't do it, but it's also, it makes sense.
After the first few times I'mlike, yeah, I do want to wear my
helmet here Because it's just,it feels a little.
(25:33):
And that's where I think there'san improvement to be made, like
making people aware thatthere's different modes of
transport.
People that are in a car,there's people on scooters there
, people on bicycles there.
Those people on bicycles and onscooters need to behave,
because if they irritate thecars drivers, then it's going to
get worse, and that's what yousee sometimes.
I'm irritated when a bicyclerider takes the Granville Bridge
(25:55):
, because you will just make thecar drivers very angry, and
it's not good for me either,because then they will look at
all bicycles go, oh you, andthen beep bicycles.
So you got to be sensible aboutthis.
So you got to educate eachother and share the road, but
then make it in a way thatbicycles understand.
Okay, this road is really forcars.
(26:15):
I should not be here.
Let me just go a different way.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So that brings me to.
We're going to wrap this up ina minute, but we've talked quite
a bit about Vancouver and theplaces that have a higher level
of bike lanes and protection andbikes on buses and so on, but a
small community where theprevailing necessity, let's say,
is that everybody's in theircar on the roads and the roads
(26:40):
are not designed for cyclists atall.
Do you have any advice forpeople in those smaller
communities, what they can do,based on the experience in the
netherlands of converting from apretty much all car culture to
a pretty much all cycle culture?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
yeah, um, I think think it maybe takes groups like
the BC Cycle Coalition andHubCycle to kind of work out
maybe programs first where theycan have people experience being
on a bicycle going from A to Band negotiating with the
municipality hey, can you closethis road off?
(27:18):
We want to do a bike to schoolweek.
Can we just try this out forone day a year to kind of have
people get in touch with it?
Because you first need thatbase of people saying, okay,
this is feasible and I will doit once it's there, because no
policymaker is going to put invery expensive infrastructure if
the policymaker doesn't believethat that it's going to pay off
(27:41):
.
Yeah, yeah and then and then andthen maybe you know you can
take the back alleys.
First, if the, if the, the citydoesn't have the bicycle agency
, you can take the alleys.
That's the nice thing aboutcity infrastructure in canada
usually you have the major roadand then you have the small back
alley which you can, which canwork for a while and that can
(28:02):
get people on the bicycle, andthen you actually really just
have to lobby your decisionmaker, your town planners.
Well, speaking of back alleys,the town planners that look
further ahead and who talk tothe developers of area.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
On the matter of driving back alleys, of course
sometimes people bail out andride on the.
On the matter of of uh, drivingback alleys, of course
sometimes people bail out andride on the sidewalk, which
creates problems withpedestrians yeah and is not a
good idea.
However, I just wanted to askyou about in amsterdam, with all
those uh cyclists drivingaround, there are conflicts with
pedestrians and uh, what?
(28:40):
What's your, your thought, whatare your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
yeah, it can get.
It can sometimes even get ugly.
Um, not just in amsterdam.
There's this, this intersectionin the hague, which always
fascinates me.
There's an internet section inthe hague, very close to the
town hall, where tram goesthrough tram, tram line.
There's cars coming through,not many, only taxis and buses,
and then there's bicycles andpedestrians and there's no signs
(29:05):
on the road, there's no lines,there's no dotted lines,
straight lines, nothing, nothing.
And it's a big intersection.
The first time you see it it'sintimidating, it's scary, peter,
you know what research saysit's safer, fewer accidents.
You know why?
Well, people pay attention.
They don't rely on signs andstuff.
(29:28):
And now it's my way, so I canjust go 100 miles an hour
through this area.
No, they have to actually payattention themselves.
And it works.
And the first time I saw it Ithought it was intimidating.
I was like this is scary, Ineed to get from here to the
other side of the road.
I'm Dutch, I was born there andraised.
But you know, it worked and itseems to work.
(29:50):
Data shows it works.
And Amsterdam it's usuallypeople that are not accustomed
to the way of moving.
So the tourists that walk on abicycle, road Bicycle of moving.
So the tourists that walk on abicycle road, bicycle paths in
the Netherlands are red.
They're very visible.
They're red, red tarmac, redasphalt.
So it's quite clear toeverybody who knows it that
(30:11):
you're walking on a bicycle pathand that might not be the
smartest thing to do.
It's like walking on a highwaywhile walking your dog.
You don't do that right.
You don't walk your dog on thehighway, so why walk with your
suitcase on a red asphaltbicycle lane?
The thing is, people that comein as a tourist don't know this.
You can't blame them becausenobody told them.
So they usually find out thefirst 15 minutes that they're
(30:33):
there because there's bicyclecoming by and they first ring
jing, jing, jing, jing withtheir little bell on the bicycle
.
Of course tourist doesn't knowwhat that means, keeps walking.
Then you get a little bit of aDutch directness thrown at your
head in verbal, verbal, not verynice way, because it's
unfortunately who we are.
We're quite direct, but thenyou know.
(30:54):
Then you know you figure out ohwait a minute, this maybe.
Figure out.
Oh, wait a minute, this maybeis not my place, and that
usually goes okay.
But you have to like and alsoyou have the youngsters Like I
was a student in Amsterdam.
I was very irresponsible.
I had a very irresponsible gamewhich I maybe should not talk
about on the podcast.
I was studying, I was living onone side of the Amsterdam, I
had classes on the other side ofAmsterdam.
(31:14):
My game was to go from one sideof Amsterdam to the other side
of Amsterdam without stopping.
Now that, peter, is a veryirresponsible bad idea.
It went okay because I wasquite agile and the police
stopped me once and said really,what are you doing?
I'm like, yeah, maybe this was abit yeah, but the fact is it's
(31:39):
kind of organic.
The good thing about it is it'skind of organic.
The good thing about it is it'skind of organic.
The bicycles and the cars theyknow each other and they
organically move with each other.
If you know that a car istaking a left, as a bicycle, you
kind of tail because you knowthat car.
When the car is going, it'ssafe, so you can kind of tail.
Dutch people do that.
It's organic.
And when you approach as a carcoming and you see you always
check is there anything aroundit?
(32:00):
Is there a bicycle around it ormoped?
You know it's an organic wave.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, it works so I I don't think we want to go on
the record saying that therecommendation from the consul
general no, it isn't, it wasstupid, I told you no, no, not
that you drive around withoutstopping, but that you take away
all the traffic signs and letpeople just sort it out.
There is an example of that inVancouver, by the way, which is
Granville Island.
(32:25):
There are no traffic signsthere, and the pedestrians and
cars and cyclists all work itout by being more careful.
Well, we're happy to acceptyour label of us as frontrunners
in anything regarding cyclingand would love to stay in touch
and encourage you to join inwith any of these advocacy
(32:48):
movements and help us achieveeven part of what you've done in
the Netherlands, which is suchan inspiration for us all.
So thanks so much, sebastian.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
It's a passionate subject for me, so I like
talking about it.
Thanks so much for theopportunity, much appreciated.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Thanks for listening to Bike Sense and supporting
safe cycling in BC.
Please subscribe so you don'tmiss an episode.
The BC Cycling Coalition relieson your support to continue our
work.
The BC Cycling Coalition relieson your support to continue our
work.
Please consider becoming amember and adding your voice to
(33:28):
the call for safer and moreaccessible cycling in BC.
Special thanks to our sponsorsBC Hydro, richards Buell, sutton
, icbc Moto and the Bicycle Pro.
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