May 28, 2025 • 36 mins
Conflicts between motorized vehicles (ATVs, dirt bikes) and non-motorized users (cyclists, hikers) present ongoing challenges for multi-use trails – particularly when the trail spans almost 30,000km! Trails BC Director Léon Lebrun shares his 29-year journey with the Trans-Canada Trail, revealing how this ambitious project went from concept to reality while still facing significant challenges in British Columbia.
We also explore the evolution of trail management from grassroots engagement to centralized control, with Léon advocating for a return to more local involvement and partnership.
You can find out about the Trans Canada Trail and other BC Trails at TrailsBC.ca.
To get involved contact Léon at LebrunL@telus.net.
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The Bike Sense podcast with Peter Ladner is produced by the BC Cycling Coalition – your voice for safer and more accessible cycling and active transportation in British Columbia.
Got feedback or ideas for future episodes? Please drop us an email at admin@bccycling.ca.
Membership in the BCCC is now FREE! The future of this podcast depends on people like you becoming members at BCCycling.ca.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Bike Sense , the BC Cycling Coalition's
podcast, where we talk about allthings related to active
transportation advocacy in BC.
I'm your host, Peter Ladner,Chair of the Board of the BC
Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
Today we're going to talk aboutthe longest multi-use trail in
(00:34):
the world, better known in ourparts as the Trans-Canada Trail,
and it's the result of the workof many people over many years.
But perhaps in BC nobody hasworked harder on this trail for
more years than my guest today,Léon Lebrun, or in French, Léon
(00:54):
Lebrun, 1995, as a schoolteacher, and at that point he
was a school principal, and he'salso been a festival organizer
and he now is a director ofTrails, bc.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Welcome, léon.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Good afternoon, Léon.
You say you were a festivalorganizer.
What festival did you organize?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Oh well, I belonged to an organization called
Société Maillard-Ville and as amember of this organization and
I was a school principal at thetime we decided to found a
festival called the Festival duBois.
(01:41):
Oh yeah, and this is inMaillard-ardville, so in
Mallardville.
So at that time Mallardvillewas really quite French.
When I went to school here inMallardville, I spoke only
French to start with, and athome we only spoke French, even
(02:05):
though I was raised here inBritish Columbia, in this
community called Mayerville.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Does the Trans-Canada Trail go through Mayerville?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
No, it doesn't actually.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
But I mean, coquitlam is quite of course.
Mayerville is in Coquitlam, andso it's in Coquitlam.
It's quite large actually, andso the trail itself doesn't go
through that community.
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
How did you get involved with the Trans-Canada
Trail?
You must have fallen in lovewith it in some way to have
devoted all these years, 29years of involvement with it.
How did that start?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Well, I guess I retired when I was 55 years of
age, years of age, and soonafter, when I'm turning 56.
I went to the Canada Trust atthe time and at that, and found
there that there was a brochurecalled the Trans-Canada Trail
(03:18):
Concept so I picked it up andphoned the people there, because
I've always been interested intrails and always brought the
students and so on out toexperience the wilderness and so
on, and I thought, well, that'ssomething I can do as a retired
(03:42):
person and it turned out to bemy career for the next 29 years.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Are you a cyclist more or a hiker more, or just
love the outdoors?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Well, I've been more of a hiker, I guess, but I've
cycled a lot.
I've led cyclists a lot.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I've led cyclists, I've put out in our website for
people and discovered, whenthese people would join me, how
little they knew about their owncommunity and is cycling on the
Trans-Canada Trail a way tolearn about your community?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yes, I really believe that the best way to learn
about your community is to firstof all take your time, try to
see what's around you, and thebest way to do that, of course,
if you're in nature as much aspossible, of course, going
(05:09):
through urban areas there's alot of interesting things that
people can stop and appreciate.
In fact, our communities arevery, very varied, and when
(05:33):
people start realizing thatthere are more things to see
than to just watch the ground asyou're cycling away or walking,
so could you describe how thetrail works?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Because it's not just a trail through the woods that
goes across Canada.
It mixes up, it goes throughcities, it's all different forms
.
How does it work in the partsthat you've worked on it?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
well, I started this in 1996 and at that point we
didn't have much of an idea whatthat trail was going to look
like, because it's reallyequestrians that started the
whole idea and the first thoughtwas to hike really is what we
were thinking about.
(06:14):
So I started to explore allthese trails, like the Bidding
Powell Trail, the CentennialTrail, that kind of thing, the
Ben Powell Trail, the CentennialTrail, that kind of thing, and
there was this realization allof a sudden is that we weren't
meeting the people when we weredoing that kind of thing.
It tended to be a solitary kindof thing, and so all of a
(06:40):
sudden we had this idea thatreally our trails should connect
our community somehow.
And the realization wasespecially here in British
Columbia is that our communitieswere not connected.
Suggest a trail to connect withthe next community.
(07:08):
We had to go and go to theirmaps.
In other words, theyconcentrated on their own maps
and if they had any trails thereand of course they always did
in communities such as this theykind of didn't think about the
(07:32):
idea that they would somehowconnect with other communities.
So the whole idea of theTrans-Canada Trail was to
connect communities and overtime we started to learn about
our First Nations as well,because a lot of these maps that
we were looking at there wereholes that were where the bands
(07:57):
lived in their reserves, and sothere was an attempt here to try
to connect with First Nations.
And it's in recent times wherewe're really making some strides
with that, with a program that,with that, we call the Great
Blue Heron Way.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
We won't get into a lot of detail the Great Blue
Heron Way because that's a wholepodcast in itself.
But let me ask you generally doyou think that the trail has in
fact connected communities?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yes, as a matter of fact, I think we were very
successful in doing that, andone of the ways, of course, is
to use the regional districtsalong the way and having them
help coordinate that kind ofthing.
(08:49):
And of course, regionaldistricts think about connecting
communities.
So that was a good place tostart, and it was the regional
districts that would bring therepresentatives from each
community to say, okay, what doyou think about the Trans-Canada
(09:10):
Trail, in a way, and and atthat time I was ready to suggest
how we might connect, and sothe community say, through Metro
Vancouver Regional Districtsand the Fraser Valley Regional
(09:33):
District, where I live, theyjumped at the idea, actually,
jumped at the idea, actually,and and so the way we managed to
get started is to first of allexplore all the various trails
that were in these communitiesand then go to the planners and
(09:59):
say what, what do you thinkabout this?
And of course, you can't getthe planners to work until you
talk to the councils, so theywould invite us planners to work
on this with us.
So they were outside all theway.
(10:32):
As a matter of fact, when itcame to selling the idea of the
Trans-Canada Trail, there was noselling to do Right away.
People say well, of course.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
And who paid for it?
I'm assuming there would be alot of different funding sources
, but did you have to find moneyin order to attract interest
from these municipalities andregional districts?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Well, it works in a variety of ways.
For sure, you need funding todo this kind of thing, but when
you're presenting to thecommunities, they have their own
infrastructure and we wouldsuggest what already exists to
(11:21):
start with.
So and say, well, now we needto close some gaps in between
that and try to get thesecommunities to close the gaps.
And we're still doing that tothis day.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
The Trans Canada Trail Foundation now is.
They give out grants for peopleof all different types of
organizations to do these trailsand they are working on the
parts of the Castle GardenNelson Trail.
They help pay for a separatedbike lane between Pandora and
Government Street, right in thecity of Victoria, and they are
(12:00):
they are working on a trailbetween Ladysmith and Chimenas
all over the province.
Would you say that theTrans-Canada Trail is now
complete?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Definitely not, far from it, I would say.
However, there are provincesthat are doing better than us.
Quebec is a real good exampleof that.
Prince Edward Island has done amagnificent job.
(12:32):
They have a complete trail fromone end of the province to the
other.
In Quebec, they've completedtheir trail as well, so those
are the only two provinces thatreally have successfully done
that.
In British Columbia, we havehuge gaps and, as you probably
(12:55):
know, in British Columbia wehave a lot of public land.
In British Columbia, we have alot of public land, and so it's
not just a question of trying tomake these connections between
these communities.
Somehow we have to getgovernment involved and so on,
(13:16):
and a huge percentage of BritishColumbia is crown land or
public land.
Now, some of it is in parks andwe take advantage of that, but
on the whole, there are somereally very big gaps.
(13:40):
There are some really very biggaps, and to try to close those
gaps would take an awful lot offunding and it takes a lot of
resources.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Well, you're a director of Trails BC and I know
Trails BC has taken this on.
What is it that Trails BC cando and is doing to help fill
these gaps and fulfill the goalof the TransCanada Trail?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Well, like any organization, we do a lot of
lobbying, of course, lobbying,of course.
The biggest problem that wehave is who will be using these
trails and how compatible thesetrails are for all users.
(14:33):
And we know that to this day.
This is quite a challengebecause, first of all, since we
started this whole idea, trailswere kind of sort of single-use.
You know single uses.
So you might have been on abike trail, you might have been
(14:59):
on a motorized dirt bike, butmost of the people at that time
thought of trails as hikers.
So we were basically hikers.
And so, with the TransCanadaTrail, this whole idea of
multi-use trail was kind of anew concept.
(15:23):
It really did not exist before,and this is where we got the
idea.
Oh, with the multi-use trail,we can connect communities much
better and, of course, we getthe people involved.
So that's what.
(15:45):
So this is what we set out todo, this was our mission, and
but a big part of our mission isthat we wanted it to be a
natural trail as much aspossible.
Again, like I mentioned before,when it comes to connecting
(16:06):
these trails and the multi-usetrail, you want to experience as
much as possible.
Unfortunately, not all uses arecompatible for all surfaces
where we have trails.
And you know, there are placeswhere trails get overpopulated
(16:34):
by walkers.
As you know, going aroundStanley Park, for example, we
have a situation where we have amulti-use trail but we
separated the cyclists from thewalkers along the seawall.
Well, that's kind of the ideathat we had in mind, and
(17:04):
wherever we are on urban areas,the idea of motorized trails
such as ATVs and dirt bikes and4x4s and all that kind of thing,
we're not nearly as it's notthat much of a problem most of
the time, but the moment thatwe're on Crown Land we're into a
different world.
(17:24):
There's a kind of afree-for-all that goes out there
and there's an idea thatwherever you can run your
vehicle you will do so.
Then you will do so.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I noticed in the literature provided by the
Trans-Canada Trail Society thatit originally started out as,
and one of their goals is topromote and advocate for active
transportation, and they veryreluctantly it seems started
allowing motorized transit, atvsand dirt bikes and such on
sections of the trail.
But, as you say, they make itvery difficult.
(18:06):
I think once a motorizedvehicle gets on the trail they
take it over because otherpeople don't want to be on there
when there's a motorcyclewhipping by, or when it all gets
chewed up by big tires and it'sunsafe for hikers and so on.
Up by big tires and it's unsafefor hikers, and so on.
So it sounds like that this isa pretty tough issue.
Who resolves this issue?
(18:28):
Is it just hikers standing inthe middle of the trail saying
you shall not pass to dirt bikes?
Or the dirt bikes just say,forget it, we're here and we're
going to be here to stay.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
We're here and we're going to be here to stay.
Well, first of all, we have tocome to the realization that we
are incompatible most of thetime when it comes to trails,
but they can have their owntrails and we have to understand
(18:59):
that.
We're in a big country herethat has a lot of resource roads
that people can use and we canshare those resource roads.
So that's a way of doing it.
These trails, in other words,these motorized vehicles, might
(19:26):
turn the trail into mud orpotholes or tracks.
If you take your bike on such atrail, you're not looking at
the environment, you're payingattention to where you're riding
, and not only that, it becomesso difficult that it discourages
(19:48):
you from doing that kind ofactivity.
So we are, in fact,incompatible for most situations
situations, and so we wouldlike to have a way of talking to
each other much more.
(20:08):
We have an example of this herein the Chilliwack River Valley.
We started to build a trail upthrough the valley there and
soon after, these ATVers anddirt bikers were right on our
trail, turning the whole thinginto mud mainly mud and potholes
(20:33):
and all that kind of thing.
So we actually I have to saythat I did this on my own.
I assembled the vehicle, peopleinto a coffee shop and said we
(20:55):
have to make up our minds here.
We are incompatible andtherefore we have to find a way
to do this.
And if we don't get together,if we don't talk to each other,
of course governments and peopledon't want to get in the middle
of these disputes and so if wetalk to each other, then we're
(21:22):
more likely to get support fromgovernments.
When I say support, I meanfinancial support and so on,
because it serves more people.
So we have done that.
(21:43):
As an example, the ChilliwackRiver Valley.
And what we've done is we'reinvolved with an organization,
not an organization, but withthe government agency that's
called Rec Sites and Trails BC.
(22:04):
We started with an organizationcalled LUCO and anyway we got
together.
We got the, in other words,this government agency, rack
Sites and Trails BC, to bring ustogether and we're doing that
(22:27):
to this day, and probably theonly place in British Columbia
where we're actually talking toeach other.
And what happens when that,what happened in this case is
that, okay, we can shareresource worlds.
(22:48):
A lot of our resource worlds gothrough natural country,
forests here and, of course,mining country and that kind of
thing.
So we agreed if we're not on atrail but on a resource road, we
can share that and find ways ofsupporting each other.
(23:12):
By having done that, thisparticular government agency
decided to pay attention to themotorized people more than they
did before and they organizedparking lots for them, allowed
them areas where they canpractice their sport and that
(23:39):
kind of thing, a little bit likethe downhill cyclists as well.
Their types of trails are verydifficult for well motorized
people don't use those trails somuch and they do it for a
(24:01):
different purpose, so they areactually kind of difficult on
walkers or hikers, so they needseparated areas or they tend to
be compatible, especially forwalkers.
So there's an example of wherethis can happen.
(24:25):
There can be.
We need to talk to each other.
So there's an organizationcalled Outdoor Recreation
Council of BC here who bring allthese different recreations
together.
But we still haven't come toterms with the fact that, for
instance, on rail trails.
(24:45):
We think rail trails areperfect for cycling because of
their grades and so on, and theyappeal to all kinds of views,
lots of abilities, and thereforeit's perfect for cyclists in
(25:07):
particular and of course, forwalkers and in some cases with
equestrians.
So this is one of the reasonswhy rail corridors are just
perfect for what we're doing.
Dikes and rail corridors havegood surfaces to them and you
(25:33):
know hard surfaces.
But the problem that we havethere is that they bring up all
the rocks and they createpotholes all over and they track
it.
So you know, we wouldn't minddoing it with them, with ATVers
(25:56):
and dirt bikes, but for thatpurpose it makes the cycling
nearly impossible for mostpeople.
People who love that kind ofchallenge, that's one thing, but
the vast majority of people whowant to tour and to explore
their surrounding and appreciatetheir environment and so on,
(26:20):
they don't want to fightpotholes and that kind of thing.
And, for that matter, in someplaces you have to walk your
bike and push it through mud andthat kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
So it sounds like you're basically reinforcing
what you said at the start, thatthese uses are incompatible.
And so then it comes down to ifwe're on the side of the
cyclists and the hikers and theactive transportation people.
You've mentioned lobbying, andit sounds as if the authorities
are actually being lobbiedharder or feel more pressure or
(26:57):
support from the motorizedpeople.
They're going to put theparking lots in there and
encourage them to go there.
So again it comes back to thisage-old thing of the cyclists
and the other users have to getorganized and make their voices
heard.
And also, I would think therewould be a role for signage.
I mean, if there was at least asign that said no motorized
(27:20):
transportation past this point,it would at least set up an
expectation, if not result indirect action.
But it's a step there.
And I noticed that theTrans-Canada Trail Foundation
does give money and grants.
They gave five, almost five anda half million dollars in
funding, which goes across allof Canada last year.
(27:42):
It doesn't amount to very muchin each jurisdiction, but they
do give money for signage andsome of these other ways that
these trails can be prioritizedfor active transportation uses.
Is that enough?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
The quick answer is probably no, okay, mainly.
Well, there was a time when westarted all of this.
We started this as a grassrootsorganization, and as a
(28:23):
grassroots organization, we usedto meet with people locally and
it was the people who weremaking this happen, and that's
what happened in the ChilliwackRiver Valley.
It's the local people.
We got together, we talked withthe motorized people together.
We talked with the motorizedpeople.
(28:44):
By the way, the motorizedpeople are there policing our
trails there and making surethat we can work together.
So it can happen, but it seemsto be happening rarely.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
You've written a critique of the Trans-Canada
Trail situation and I gather youhave yet to get a response from
the foundation, but one of yourmain points is that it's no
longer a grassroots organization.
What would it take Supposingyou didn't have to, or want to,
wait for the central office tomake decisions on this?
Is there a way that people inBC could rise up or get involved
(29:29):
at a grassroots level withoutneeding approval or being part
of the formal TransCanadaFoundation?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Well, to start with, that's the way we started.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
And until about 2017.
And since that time, theorganization has changed and I
can see why it's difficult torun a national organization to
deal with all these differentgroups, because all of those
(30:07):
groups are all different inevery province.
You know, we govern each other,we govern differently and so on
, but that was at a time when weworked as partners.
So Trails BC was a partner ofthe Trans-Canada Trail.
We still aren't in a sense.
In other words, they consultwith us from time to time, but
(30:30):
at that time it was ongoing tothe point where they had an
employee with each TranscandaTrail that worked with us to
help with the coordination withthe central office, to put up
(30:53):
the mapping and all that kind ofthing, and we used to meet with
each other.
So there was communicationsbetween the provinces and the
central office a lot more.
Now, what they're doing now isthat they've got leaders that
(31:17):
look after aspects of theTrans-Catatral it might be for
the First Nations aspect, othersit's for signage that someone
else is for some other reasonand they tend to connect
directly with the communitiesthat we were connected with
(31:41):
before, and so they try toconnect directly with all these
communities right across Canada,asking them to do various
things and they've done that ina way where we've kind of
established this whole idea ofthe Trans-Canada Trail.
But at that time when we did it,we did it with a lot of people
(32:03):
and we were meeting with peopleall the time.
We had pavilions along the waywhere people would donate and
put their names up and all thosekinds of things.
In other words, they wereactively involved with the trail
system.
Now they depend an awful lotmore on the community
(32:23):
governments to do this work.
Where we're working withregional districts or with the
government, the provincialgovernments, we have a lot of
public lands as well and therethey're dependent on volunteers,
but they're dealing directlywith these government
(32:50):
organizations rather than withorganizations like ours that are
true partners to make thishappen.
Just to give you an example ofwhat I'm talking about this
happen.
Just to give you an example ofwhat I'm talking about the city
(33:10):
of Vancouver have you tried tofollow the signage?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
To be honest, I've seen signs here and there, but
short answer no, I've not everfelt, oh, I'm on this trail and
it goes here now.
It goes here now.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
It goes here now it goes there, it's, it's nearly
impossible, and the reason whyis because, uh, it's been, it's,
it's being directed by someonein nova scotia do you get the
idea?
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I got it okay.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Those nova scotia people they're, they're
well-meaning, they're tryingvery, very hard, but they're
talking to a planner somewhereand saying you know they need
this and they need that, butthey don't do it Through the
city of Vancouver.
All the signage has practicallydisappeared like we're.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
We're at a bit of an impasse here, but, uh, I think
we've got to wrap this up, but II think that your example of
how you've worked in it over theyears is certainly one that
should be held up and notforgotten and appreciated for
how it can bring, as you say,the grassroots people into the,
the movement, because, honestly,a trail of this complexity
29,000 kilometers across CanadaI don't know how many in BC
(34:29):
obviously cannot be managed byone or two people, or a few
officers or a few leaders orsomething.
It's got to be able to engagethe community.
Thanks, leon, and I appreciateyour insights and guidance on
getting this right and making itbetter and really making this
TransCanada Trail all it couldbe.
Thanks for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
A la prochaine.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Merci.
You've been listening to BikeSense, an original podcast from
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(35:15):
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(35:37):
Thank you.
Welcome to Bike Sense , the BC Cycling Coalition's
podcast, where we talk about allthings related to active
transportation advocacy in BC.
I'm your host, Peter Ladner,Chair of the Board of the BC
Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
Today we're going to talk aboutthe longest multi-use trail in
(00:34):
the world, better known in ourparts as the Trans-Canada Trail,
and it's the result of the workof many people over many years.
But perhaps in BC nobody hasworked harder on this trail for
more years than my guest today,Léon Lebrun, or in French, Léon
(00:54):
Lebrun, 1995, as a schoolteacher, and at that point he
was a school principal, and he'salso been a festival organizer
and he now is a director ofTrails, bc.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Welcome, léon.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Good afternoon, Léon.
You say you were a festivalorganizer.
What festival did you organize?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Oh well, I belonged to an organization called
Société Maillard-Ville and as amember of this organization and
I was a school principal at thetime we decided to found a
festival called the Festival duBois.
(01:41):
Oh yeah, and this is inMaillard-ardville, so in
Mallardville.
So at that time Mallardvillewas really quite French.
When I went to school here inMallardville, I spoke only
French to start with, and athome we only spoke French, even
(02:05):
though I was raised here inBritish Columbia, in this
community called Mayerville.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Does the Trans-Canada Trail go through Mayerville?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
No, it doesn't actually.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
But I mean, coquitlam is quite of course.
Mayerville is in Coquitlam, andso it's in Coquitlam.
It's quite large actually, andso the trail itself doesn't go
through that community.
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
How did you get involved with the Trans-Canada
Trail?
You must have fallen in lovewith it in some way to have
devoted all these years, 29years of involvement with it.
How did that start?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Well, I guess I retired when I was 55 years of
age, years of age, and soonafter, when I'm turning 56.
I went to the Canada Trust atthe time and at that, and found
there that there was a brochurecalled the Trans-Canada Trail
(03:18):
Concept so I picked it up andphoned the people there, because
I've always been interested intrails and always brought the
students and so on out toexperience the wilderness and so
on, and I thought, well, that'ssomething I can do as a retired
(03:42):
person and it turned out to bemy career for the next 29 years.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Are you a cyclist more or a hiker more, or just
love the outdoors?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Well, I've been more of a hiker, I guess, but I've
cycled a lot.
I've led cyclists a lot.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I've led cyclists, I've put out in our website for
people and discovered, whenthese people would join me, how
little they knew about their owncommunity and is cycling on the
Trans-Canada Trail a way tolearn about your community?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yes, I really believe that the best way to learn
about your community is to firstof all take your time, try to
see what's around you, and thebest way to do that, of course,
if you're in nature as much aspossible, of course, going
(05:09):
through urban areas there's alot of interesting things that
people can stop and appreciate.
In fact, our communities arevery, very varied, and when
(05:33):
people start realizing thatthere are more things to see
than to just watch the ground asyou're cycling away or walking,
so could you describe how thetrail works?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Because it's not just a trail through the woods that
goes across Canada.
It mixes up, it goes throughcities, it's all different forms
.
How does it work in the partsthat you've worked on it?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
well, I started this in 1996 and at that point we
didn't have much of an idea whatthat trail was going to look
like, because it's reallyequestrians that started the
whole idea and the first thoughtwas to hike really is what we
were thinking about.
(06:14):
So I started to explore allthese trails, like the Bidding
Powell Trail, the CentennialTrail, that kind of thing, the
Ben Powell Trail, the CentennialTrail, that kind of thing, and
there was this realization allof a sudden is that we weren't
meeting the people when we weredoing that kind of thing.
It tended to be a solitary kindof thing, and so all of a
(06:40):
sudden we had this idea thatreally our trails should connect
our community somehow.
And the realization wasespecially here in British
Columbia is that our communitieswere not connected.
Suggest a trail to connect withthe next community.
(07:08):
We had to go and go to theirmaps.
In other words, theyconcentrated on their own maps
and if they had any trails thereand of course they always did
in communities such as this theykind of didn't think about the
(07:32):
idea that they would somehowconnect with other communities.
So the whole idea of theTrans-Canada Trail was to
connect communities and overtime we started to learn about
our First Nations as well,because a lot of these maps that
we were looking at there wereholes that were where the bands
(07:57):
lived in their reserves, and sothere was an attempt here to try
to connect with First Nations.
And it's in recent times wherewe're really making some strides
with that, with a program that,with that, we call the Great
Blue Heron Way.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
We won't get into a lot of detail the Great Blue
Heron Way because that's a wholepodcast in itself.
But let me ask you generally doyou think that the trail has in
fact connected communities?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yes, as a matter of fact, I think we were very
successful in doing that, andone of the ways, of course, is
to use the regional districtsalong the way and having them
help coordinate that kind ofthing.
(08:49):
And of course, regionaldistricts think about connecting
communities.
So that was a good place tostart, and it was the regional
districts that would bring therepresentatives from each
community to say, okay, what doyou think about the Trans-Canada
(09:10):
Trail, in a way, and and atthat time I was ready to suggest
how we might connect, and sothe community say, through Metro
Vancouver Regional Districtsand the Fraser Valley Regional
(09:33):
District, where I live, theyjumped at the idea, actually,
jumped at the idea, actually,and and so the way we managed to
get started is to first of allexplore all the various trails
that were in these communitiesand then go to the planners and
(09:59):
say what, what do you thinkabout this?
And of course, you can't getthe planners to work until you
talk to the councils, so theywould invite us planners to work
on this with us.
So they were outside all theway.
(10:32):
As a matter of fact, when itcame to selling the idea of the
Trans-Canada Trail, there was noselling to do Right away.
People say well, of course.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
And who paid for it?
I'm assuming there would be alot of different funding sources
, but did you have to find moneyin order to attract interest
from these municipalities andregional districts?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Well, it works in a variety of ways.
For sure, you need funding todo this kind of thing, but when
you're presenting to thecommunities, they have their own
infrastructure and we wouldsuggest what already exists to
(11:21):
start with.
So and say, well, now we needto close some gaps in between
that and try to get thesecommunities to close the gaps.
And we're still doing that tothis day.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
The Trans Canada Trail Foundation now is.
They give out grants for peopleof all different types of
organizations to do these trailsand they are working on the
parts of the Castle GardenNelson Trail.
They help pay for a separatedbike lane between Pandora and
Government Street, right in thecity of Victoria, and they are
(12:00):
they are working on a trailbetween Ladysmith and Chimenas
all over the province.
Would you say that theTrans-Canada Trail is now
complete?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Definitely not, far from it, I would say.
However, there are provincesthat are doing better than us.
Quebec is a real good exampleof that.
Prince Edward Island has done amagnificent job.
(12:32):
They have a complete trail fromone end of the province to the
other.
In Quebec, they've completedtheir trail as well, so those
are the only two provinces thatreally have successfully done
that.
In British Columbia, we havehuge gaps and, as you probably
(12:55):
know, in British Columbia wehave a lot of public land.
In British Columbia, we have alot of public land, and so it's
not just a question of trying tomake these connections between
these communities.
Somehow we have to getgovernment involved and so on,
(13:16):
and a huge percentage of BritishColumbia is crown land or
public land.
Now, some of it is in parks andwe take advantage of that, but
on the whole, there are somereally very big gaps.
(13:40):
There are some really very biggaps, and to try to close those
gaps would take an awful lot offunding and it takes a lot of
resources.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Well, you're a director of Trails BC and I know
Trails BC has taken this on.
What is it that Trails BC cando and is doing to help fill
these gaps and fulfill the goalof the TransCanada Trail?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Well, like any organization, we do a lot of
lobbying, of course, lobbying,of course.
The biggest problem that wehave is who will be using these
trails and how compatible thesetrails are for all users.
(14:33):
And we know that to this day.
This is quite a challengebecause, first of all, since we
started this whole idea, trailswere kind of sort of single-use.
You know single uses.
So you might have been on abike trail, you might have been
(14:59):
on a motorized dirt bike, butmost of the people at that time
thought of trails as hikers.
So we were basically hikers.
And so, with the TransCanadaTrail, this whole idea of
multi-use trail was kind of anew concept.
(15:23):
It really did not exist before,and this is where we got the
idea.
Oh, with the multi-use trail,we can connect communities much
better and, of course, we getthe people involved.
So that's what.
(15:45):
So this is what we set out todo, this was our mission, and
but a big part of our mission isthat we wanted it to be a
natural trail as much aspossible.
Again, like I mentioned before,when it comes to connecting
(16:06):
these trails and the multi-usetrail, you want to experience as
much as possible.
Unfortunately, not all uses arecompatible for all surfaces
where we have trails.
And you know, there are placeswhere trails get overpopulated
(16:34):
by walkers.
As you know, going aroundStanley Park, for example, we
have a situation where we have amulti-use trail but we
separated the cyclists from thewalkers along the seawall.
Well, that's kind of the ideathat we had in mind, and
(17:04):
wherever we are on urban areas,the idea of motorized trails
such as ATVs and dirt bikes and4x4s and all that kind of thing,
we're not nearly as it's notthat much of a problem most of
the time, but the moment thatwe're on Crown Land we're into a
different world.
(17:24):
There's a kind of afree-for-all that goes out there
and there's an idea thatwherever you can run your
vehicle you will do so.
Then you will do so.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I noticed in the literature provided by the
Trans-Canada Trail Society thatit originally started out as,
and one of their goals is topromote and advocate for active
transportation, and they veryreluctantly it seems started
allowing motorized transit, atvsand dirt bikes and such on
sections of the trail.
But, as you say, they make itvery difficult.
(18:06):
I think once a motorizedvehicle gets on the trail they
take it over because otherpeople don't want to be on there
when there's a motorcyclewhipping by, or when it all gets
chewed up by big tires and it'sunsafe for hikers and so on.
Up by big tires and it's unsafefor hikers, and so on.
So it sounds like that this isa pretty tough issue.
Who resolves this issue?
(18:28):
Is it just hikers standing inthe middle of the trail saying
you shall not pass to dirt bikes?
Or the dirt bikes just say,forget it, we're here and we're
going to be here to stay.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
We're here and we're going to be here to stay.
Well, first of all, we have tocome to the realization that we
are incompatible most of thetime when it comes to trails,
but they can have their owntrails and we have to understand
(18:59):
that.
We're in a big country herethat has a lot of resource roads
that people can use and we canshare those resource roads.
So that's a way of doing it.
These trails, in other words,these motorized vehicles, might
(19:26):
turn the trail into mud orpotholes or tracks.
If you take your bike on such atrail, you're not looking at
the environment, you're payingattention to where you're riding
, and not only that, it becomesso difficult that it discourages
(19:48):
you from doing that kind ofactivity.
So we are, in fact,incompatible for most situations
situations, and so we wouldlike to have a way of talking to
each other much more.
(20:08):
We have an example of this herein the Chilliwack River Valley.
We started to build a trail upthrough the valley there and
soon after, these ATVers anddirt bikers were right on our
trail, turning the whole thinginto mud mainly mud and potholes
(20:33):
and all that kind of thing.
So we actually I have to saythat I did this on my own.
I assembled the vehicle, peopleinto a coffee shop and said we
(20:55):
have to make up our minds here.
We are incompatible andtherefore we have to find a way
to do this.
And if we don't get together,if we don't talk to each other,
of course governments and peopledon't want to get in the middle
of these disputes and so if wetalk to each other, then we're
(21:22):
more likely to get support fromgovernments.
When I say support, I meanfinancial support and so on,
because it serves more people.
So we have done that.
(21:43):
As an example, the ChilliwackRiver Valley.
And what we've done is we'reinvolved with an organization,
not an organization, but withthe government agency that's
called Rec Sites and Trails BC.
(22:04):
We started with an organizationcalled LUCO and anyway we got
together.
We got the, in other words,this government agency, rack
Sites and Trails BC, to bring ustogether and we're doing that
(22:27):
to this day, and probably theonly place in British Columbia
where we're actually talking toeach other.
And what happens when that,what happened in this case is
that, okay, we can shareresource worlds.
(22:48):
A lot of our resource worlds gothrough natural country,
forests here and, of course,mining country and that kind of
thing.
So we agreed if we're not on atrail but on a resource road, we
can share that and find ways ofsupporting each other.
(23:12):
By having done that, thisparticular government agency
decided to pay attention to themotorized people more than they
did before and they organizedparking lots for them, allowed
them areas where they canpractice their sport and that
(23:39):
kind of thing, a little bit likethe downhill cyclists as well.
Their types of trails are verydifficult for well motorized
people don't use those trails somuch and they do it for a
(24:01):
different purpose, so they areactually kind of difficult on
walkers or hikers, so they needseparated areas or they tend to
be compatible, especially forwalkers.
So there's an example of wherethis can happen.
(24:25):
There can be.
We need to talk to each other.
So there's an organizationcalled Outdoor Recreation
Council of BC here who bring allthese different recreations
together.
But we still haven't come toterms with the fact that, for
instance, on rail trails.
(24:45):
We think rail trails areperfect for cycling because of
their grades and so on, and theyappeal to all kinds of views,
lots of abilities, and thereforeit's perfect for cyclists in
(25:07):
particular and of course, forwalkers and in some cases with
equestrians.
So this is one of the reasonswhy rail corridors are just
perfect for what we're doing.
Dikes and rail corridors havegood surfaces to them and you
(25:33):
know hard surfaces.
But the problem that we havethere is that they bring up all
the rocks and they createpotholes all over and they track
it.
So you know, we wouldn't minddoing it with them, with ATVers
(25:56):
and dirt bikes, but for thatpurpose it makes the cycling
nearly impossible for mostpeople.
People who love that kind ofchallenge, that's one thing, but
the vast majority of people whowant to tour and to explore
their surrounding and appreciatetheir environment and so on,
(26:20):
they don't want to fightpotholes and that kind of thing.
And, for that matter, in someplaces you have to walk your
bike and push it through mud andthat kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
So it sounds like you're basically reinforcing
what you said at the start, thatthese uses are incompatible.
And so then it comes down to ifwe're on the side of the
cyclists and the hikers and theactive transportation people.
You've mentioned lobbying, andit sounds as if the authorities
are actually being lobbiedharder or feel more pressure or
(26:57):
support from the motorizedpeople.
They're going to put theparking lots in there and
encourage them to go there.
So again it comes back to thisage-old thing of the cyclists
and the other users have to getorganized and make their voices
heard.
And also, I would think therewould be a role for signage.
I mean, if there was at least asign that said no motorized
(27:20):
transportation past this point,it would at least set up an
expectation, if not result indirect action.
But it's a step there.
And I noticed that theTrans-Canada Trail Foundation
does give money and grants.
They gave five, almost five anda half million dollars in
funding, which goes across allof Canada last year.
(27:42):
It doesn't amount to very muchin each jurisdiction, but they
do give money for signage andsome of these other ways that
these trails can be prioritizedfor active transportation uses.
Is that enough?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
The quick answer is probably no, okay, mainly.
Well, there was a time when westarted all of this.
We started this as a grassrootsorganization, and as a
(28:23):
grassroots organization, we usedto meet with people locally and
it was the people who weremaking this happen, and that's
what happened in the ChilliwackRiver Valley.
It's the local people.
We got together, we talked withthe motorized people together.
We talked with the motorizedpeople.
(28:44):
By the way, the motorizedpeople are there policing our
trails there and making surethat we can work together.
So it can happen, but it seemsto be happening rarely.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
You've written a critique of the Trans-Canada
Trail situation and I gather youhave yet to get a response from
the foundation, but one of yourmain points is that it's no
longer a grassroots organization.
What would it take Supposingyou didn't have to, or want to,
wait for the central office tomake decisions on this?
Is there a way that people inBC could rise up or get involved
(29:29):
at a grassroots level withoutneeding approval or being part
of the formal TransCanadaFoundation?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Well, to start with, that's the way we started.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
And until about 2017.
And since that time, theorganization has changed and I
can see why it's difficult torun a national organization to
deal with all these differentgroups, because all of those
(30:07):
groups are all different inevery province.
You know, we govern each other,we govern differently and so on
, but that was at a time when weworked as partners.
So Trails BC was a partner ofthe Trans-Canada Trail.
We still aren't in a sense.
In other words, they consultwith us from time to time, but
(30:30):
at that time it was ongoing tothe point where they had an
employee with each TranscandaTrail that worked with us to
help with the coordination withthe central office, to put up
(30:53):
the mapping and all that kind ofthing, and we used to meet with
each other.
So there was communicationsbetween the provinces and the
central office a lot more.
Now, what they're doing now isthat they've got leaders that
(31:17):
look after aspects of theTrans-Catatral it might be for
the First Nations aspect, othersit's for signage that someone
else is for some other reasonand they tend to connect
directly with the communitiesthat we were connected with
(31:41):
before, and so they try toconnect directly with all these
communities right across Canada,asking them to do various
things and they've done that ina way where we've kind of
established this whole idea ofthe Trans-Canada Trail.
But at that time when we did it,we did it with a lot of people
(32:03):
and we were meeting with peopleall the time.
We had pavilions along the waywhere people would donate and
put their names up and all thosekinds of things.
In other words, they wereactively involved with the trail
system.
Now they depend an awful lotmore on the community
(32:23):
governments to do this work.
Where we're working withregional districts or with the
government, the provincialgovernments, we have a lot of
public lands as well and therethey're dependent on volunteers,
but they're dealing directlywith these government
(32:50):
organizations rather than withorganizations like ours that are
true partners to make thishappen.
Just to give you an example ofwhat I'm talking about this
happen.
Just to give you an example ofwhat I'm talking about the city
(33:10):
of Vancouver have you tried tofollow the signage?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
To be honest, I've seen signs here and there, but
short answer no, I've not everfelt, oh, I'm on this trail and
it goes here now.
It goes here now.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
It goes here now it goes there, it's, it's nearly
impossible, and the reason whyis because, uh, it's been, it's,
it's being directed by someonein nova scotia do you get the
idea?
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I got it okay.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Those nova scotia people they're, they're
well-meaning, they're tryingvery, very hard, but they're
talking to a planner somewhereand saying you know they need
this and they need that, butthey don't do it Through the
city of Vancouver.
All the signage has practicallydisappeared like we're.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
We're at a bit of an impasse here, but, uh, I think
we've got to wrap this up, but II think that your example of
how you've worked in it over theyears is certainly one that
should be held up and notforgotten and appreciated for
how it can bring, as you say,the grassroots people into the,
the movement, because, honestly,a trail of this complexity
29,000 kilometers across CanadaI don't know how many in BC
(34:29):
obviously cannot be managed byone or two people, or a few
officers or a few leaders orsomething.
It's got to be able to engagethe community.
Thanks, leon, and I appreciateyour insights and guidance on
getting this right and making itbetter and really making this
TransCanada Trail all it couldbe.
Thanks for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
A la prochaine.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Merci.
You've been listening to BikeSense, an original podcast from
the BC Cycling Coalition.
If you like the podcast, we'dbe grateful if you could leave
us a rating.
On whatever platform you use,you can also subscribe so you
(35:15):
don't miss future episodes.
If you have comments orsuggestions for future episodes,
email me at peterladner atbccyclingca.
You can help us amplify BCCycling Coalition's voice by
simply becoming a free member atbccyclingca.
(35:37):
Thank you.
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