September 10, 2025 • 36 mins
Trail Rep for the Fraser Valley Mountain Bike Association, Founding Member of the Mission Community Cycling Coalition, former bike-shop owner, and also motorcycle enthusiast Rocky Blondin reveals how the once-clear distinction between motorized and non-motorized vehicles has become dangerously blurred.
In BC pedal-assist e-bikes are classified as bicycles, but this has opened the door to much more powerful devices exploiting regulatory gaps. From teenagers racing modified e-scooters at 80km/h on sidewalks to disguised electric motorcycles damaging mountain bike trails, these situations create real safety hazards.
Despite these concerns, Rocky remains enthusiastic about electric mobility's transformative benefits. Listen in to hear his innovative solutions such as a "green sticker" system to identify compliant devices, and how 'right to repair' can support the cycling industry as well as making e-bikes more sustainable.
Reach out to Rocky at bruce.rockford@gmail.com
***********************************************
The Bike Sense podcast with Peter Ladner is produced by the BC Cycling Coalition – your voice for safer and more accessible cycling and active transportation in British Columbia. Membership in the BCCC is now FREE! The future of this podcast depends on people like you becoming members at BCCycling.ca. Please join us.
Got feedback or ideas for future episodes? Please drop us an email at admin@bccycling.ca.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome to Bike Sense , the BC Cycling Coalition's
podcast, where we talk about allthings related to active
transportation advocacy in BC.
I'm your host, peter Ladner,chair of the Board of the BC
Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
It's not all roses in electricmobility land was a sentence
(01:08):
that came to me from today'sguest, rocky Blunden, telling
stories about issues of e-bikesand e-scooters and irresponsible
cycling behavior.
You may have heard about the12-year-old cyclist who killed a
pedestrian in Calgary.
You may have seen gangs of14-year-olds on e-bikes and
e-scooters behaving somewhatrecklessly in a town near you.
(01:31):
You may have heard about the UKpolice impounding e-bikes that
are actually not e-bikes they'rejust motorcycles in disguise.
In disguise, and Rocky Blundinis the trail rep for the Fraser
Valley Mountain Bike Associationand a founding member for the
(01:51):
Mission Community CyclingCoalition, so he straddles both
the mountain bike issues relatedto this topic and the ones in
the cities.
Welcome, rocky.
Hi Peter, thanks for having methe cities.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Welcome Rocky.
Hi Peter, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So, before we start, I just want to ask you what was
your latest bike ride thatyou've done?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Last night Fraser Valley Mountain Bike Association
had a social ride here inMission up on Bear Mountain, so
I rode to the hills and did sometrails in light rain with about
30 or 40 others.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Very nice, yeah, right around the same time I was
at the opening ride for theGranville connector in Vancouver
.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Oh fun.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
How many bikes do you own?
Honestly straight to the pointhere 11.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Whoa.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
That's just you, I have six.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
There's 11 in my garage.
Your wife has the other five,my wife has two, my son has two
and my other son has one.
I don't know if that adds up to11, but I'm pretty sure there's
11 down there.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Okay, so you qualify for the podcast I I it full
disclosure.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I used to own a bike shop.
I got caveat that that I owneda bike shop up until 2023 and
therefore comes with theterritory you kind of have to as
a business practice.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So oh, okay.
So I was going to ask you howyou got involved with cycling
advocacy.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Uh, that is a good question.
So I started mountain biking in2003,.
Give or take, my collegeroommate dragged me up to SFU
and then I found out there was agroup working on those trails,
got interested in what thatmeant, I went to their AGM and
sat down.
It was my first AGM I'd everbeen to for any organization.
I was in my early 20s and theysaid at the end of the meeting
(03:35):
they were looking for extraboard members.
They said, well, we need acouple more board members so
we're giving away a hat.
Anybody want a free hat?
I said, well, that sounds great, I'll take a free hat.
So I signed up for the board,not having no idea what that
meant, and I quickly became aboard member of the Burnaby
Mountain Bike Association.
And from that point forwardI've been on the board of the
Burnaby Mountain BikeAssociation, involved with the
(03:57):
Tri-Cities Off-Road CyclingAssociation and now here in
Mission with the Fraser ValleyMountain Biking Association.
And through that affiliation Igot pulled into call it urban
cycling advocacy.
The city of Mission formed acycling task force and my name
was on the list of people topester to join that to figure
(04:17):
out where to put bike lanes andsuch in our community.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Now you have a special status in my heart and
mind because you're a podcastfan.
You approached us about thispodcast and you mentioned that,
as a result of listening to thispodcast, your wife, I believe,
was going to, or would like to,start a chapter of Cycling
Without Age, taking elderlypeople around in trash hos.
(04:40):
Is that happening?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, I feel a bit of first-time caller, long-time
listener here, and so we'velistened to the podcast on and
off and one of the episodes didinspire us to investigate what
that looked like.
That community has beenwelcoming to learn about and my
wife's taking the lead there.
Cheryl she's looking intoopening a chapter here next year
.
They did caution, all thechallenges associated costs and
(05:05):
logistics, so she's workingthrough those, but it's looking
promising and it just soundswonderful because it resonated
with me.
My mom died a couple of yearsago and had some cognitive
decline and all she reallywanted in her elder years was to
to ride a bike again, and Iwould have loved for that
program to exist.
If I could have taken my momfor a bike ride, it would have
(05:27):
basically, yeah, made her year.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
So to do that for others would be wonderful.
Why did you contact me?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
So I reached out because I'm working on an
awareness advocacy campaigncontained within electric
mobility awareness advocacycampaign contained within
electric mobility.
I'm seeing a common elementbetween what challenges related
to e-scooters and e-bikes andthey overlap so you can almost
capture the whole problem withinwithout identifying each
element.
And it amounts to.
(05:57):
Historically, we had a veryclear delineation between a
motorized thing and anon-motorized thing.
So you had, if it had an enginelike a dirt bike, it was a
motorized thing.
If non-motorized thing, so youhad, if it had an engine like a
dirt bike, it was a motorizedthing.
If it was a pedal bike, it wasdifferent.
And it's only with electricmobility that those lines have
crossed over, and it'sespecially with e-bikes because
a pedal assist class one,e-bikes is treated in our, in bc
(06:22):
, uh, as a cycle, as a bicycle,it's not any different.
So you can ride on trails, youcan ride in bike paths, and so
that's the legal frameworkaround.
It Sounds great, I support thatand think it's wonderful.
However, that opened kind ofthe fox into the henhouse and
now electric motors of biggerand more powerful means are
going on the trails, are goinginto bike lanes and, like you
(06:44):
talked in the intro aboutmotorcycles couching themselves
as e-bikes.
When I encounter one of thesedevices that shouldn't be where
it is, the first thing out oftheir mouth is I say well,
that's a motorcycle, youshouldn't be here.
And they go no, it's an e-bikeand it's an electric motorcycle,
but it's the first thing.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So where would you draw the line between motorized
and non-motorized?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So for me and that's where e-scooters and e-bikes do
have a bit of a delineationE-bikes it's pedal assist, only
32 kilometers an hour, max 500watts, and those are the
regulations that the provincialgovernment has put onto trails
and for most bike paths.
I think this is where theregulatory environment is really
confusing, because the off-roaduse and the on-road use rules
(07:32):
don't overlap.
They don't overlap perfectly,and so it creates gray areas.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Why, then, is it possible to sell an illegal
e-bike?
I've seen these ones with thelittle faux pedals sticking out
that I don't even know if theyeven move, but they're supposed
to make it look like an e-bike,I think.
And yet it's all souped up andway over the limits you just
described.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, funny enough, that problem is, I think, as old
as time, because I remember asa kid gas-powered mopeds having
little pedals hanging off thesides, so they were low power
motorized vehicles, couchingthemselves as something else,
and the pedals were purelydecorative.
So that's not actually new,that the means of powering it it
can be, you know, gasoline, itcan be electric, it could be a
(08:17):
nuclear reactor, it's all thesame.
Outcome here it's that that's amotorized machine and it
shouldn't be where it's going.
And but the e-bikes beingallowed, there is the thing
that's now blurted because you,you're letting that person with
pedals and a motor in.
Why can't I go?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
why does it matter?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
um, so I can.
I could speak to the trail sideand then my urban environment
side.
So I live in a suburbanenvironment.
Um, we've got e-scooters, thegangs we talked about, rolling
around teenagers everywhere.
I think it's one part.
Wonderful, and then alsoterrifying when they're doing 80
kilometers an hour on asidewalk and cutting into
traffic.
That's terrifying 80.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Wait, hang on 80 kilometers an hour on a sidewalk
that actually happens aremoving yes, okay not all that,
they all come.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
They all come in various power levels, um and so,
but there's some.
There's a one specific in ourneighborhood, absolutely it's
doing 80, 90 like yeah okay, sospeeding, dangerous behavior,
dangerous riding yeah, and thespeeding comes with the inertia
behind it.
You've got a machine and aperson doing a lot of you know,
uh, got a lot of power there,and so they can hurt themselves
(09:28):
and others.
Um, so that's on the urban side.
And then we've got, um, thesethings are normally called
surrounds or, you know, commonlycalled surrounds, but it's an
electric motorcycle or electricdirt bike and we see those
running around the city parks.
We built a pump track here forcyclists and they're riding the
pump track and endangering thekids that are using that,
because now it's a motorcyclethat can land on a kid who's on
(09:48):
a scooter.
It's it's a mismatched use.
You typically don't want, youknow, you don't want your kid
playing in traffic.
You don't want a motorcycle ona pump track.
That's a bad idea and it isillegal.
That's explicitly forbidden onthe science, but people are
doing it so if it's illegal,what sort of is there?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Does anybody ever go to a bike shop and say, what are
you doing with that bike?
Or, like they did in the UK, dothe police go around and grab
these bikes and take them awayand pound them or confiscate
them in some way?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Here in Mission I'll speak to that.
So our community has gone onthe record.
The CAO has stated that theRCMP won't enforce e-scooter and
e-bike regulations becausethey're too busy dealing with
other things.
So it's a case where the youknow from call it management
directive is that's not a crimewe're worth pursuing.
(10:38):
But then it's also, I don'tthink historically we've had a
lot of enforcement in theseareas because you know, when I
was young, friends of mine wouldride their dirt bikes around
town.
We lived in a rural part ofLangley.
You typically didn't worryabout police.
You were far more concernedabout social enforcement.
I think that's actually a hugecomponent that's kind of missing
today where, if you understandwhat the social norms are we
(11:00):
were more concerned aboutgetting caught by somebody's mom
on the dirt bike than we wereby the police.
Norms are we were moreconcerned about getting caught
by somebody's mom on the dirtbike than we were by the police.
And if those social norms arekind of clear, if that scooter
is okay on the sidewalk becauseit's low power, low speed, or if
that bike is an e-bike withpedal assist and all the power
limits and accepted where it'ssupposed to go, then it'll be
(11:21):
okay.
Then people can identify thatand be okay with it and,
conversely, criticize somebodywho's not a pedestrian on the
sidewalk and say, hey, you'renot supposed to be here, but
right now the pedestrian on thesidewalk doesn't know the rules.
The RCMP honestly have had ahard time understanding the
rules.
I've met several officers thataren't clear on the legislation.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So, rocky, you talk about social norms, but where do
these norms come from?
Do people, are they expected tobe educated in?
I don't know school about rulesof the road, is it something?
There's no driver education ortesting because these vehicles
are all unlicensed and uninsured.
How does somebody learn whatthey should and shouldn't do?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Great question.
I'm not a sociologist so I willdo a poor job of answering, but
in my opinion I see thisthrough parenting and the like
and it amounts to a lot of thechallenges with youth on these
devices, amounts to parents thathave purchased them for them
and kind of just unlocked themwith them and said all right off
, you go without any boundaries.
(12:23):
And that's not critical of theparents, it's just an
observation that social normsyou know culturally I mentioned
before about.
You know I was worried aboutgetting caught by my friend's
mom on the dirt bike.
You know the parents createdthat social norm for our teenage
community and then we as adultsdo for each other too.
I talk to my friends about oh,you're doing what with your
e-bike?
(12:43):
Oh, that doesn't sound right.
There too I talked to myfriends about oh, you're doing
what with your e-bike?
Oh, that doesn't sound right.
And I, you know a sour look onmy face will indicate just the
emotions contained within and myfriend might adjust his
behavior.
And then if I encountersomebody on the sidewalk and I'm
personally doing this trying tohave that conversation I did it
with a person on a gravel pathin a park on an electric
motorcycle.
This thing looked like a Hondastreet bike and I had the
(13:06):
conversation.
It's a tough conversation.
It requires me to say hey man,can you stop for a second?
I want to talk to you aboutwhat you're doing, and what
you're doing isn't legal andit's not right.
And he refuted it.
He didn't agree with myperspective, told me it was an
e-bike, told me he was allowedto do it.
Told me the RCMP had told himit was okay.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Do you think that he was just being devious, or did
he actually believe all that?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I genuinely think he was telling the truth when he
said the RCMP accepted what hewas doing, because I've heard it
myself from RCMP officers.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Wait, they're okay with people going 80k down the
sidewalks on an illegal e-bike.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I'd suspect that any RCMP officers that saw that
happening would intervene.
But this person was just on anelectric motorcycle in a city
park, traveling at low speeds,so therefore doing something
that doesn't appear objectivelyproblematic but is inherently
illegal.
Because you're riding amotorcycle in a city park If I
took my Yamaha in there, itwould stop me right away but
(14:04):
because this thing has a plateon the back that says e-bike and
is powered by a battery,they're acting and reacting
differently.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
And was that person riding under 32 k's per hour?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Not with any technological enforcement.
And that's the thing about ane-bike that is regulated to that
speed.
It's done through software andthrough a speed sensor and that
device the device that I sawthis gentleman on, could do 80,
no problem, or more, I bet you.
It could go 120.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So you used to be in the business.
I understand.
It's not that hard to take thegovernors off these e-bikes and
turn them into real motorcycles.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Now that I'm a former retailer, I can say Did you
ever do that, Rocky?
I've never done that.
No, I don't own an e-bike oroperate any of these things.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
but Do you know people who've done that?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yes, and it's not hard.
Oh, okay, yes, and it's nothard, okay, no, you just have
the light of the speed sensor.
Not that I'm teaching kids howto do this, but you just have to
tell it the information itneeds to know, and then you can
unlock.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So it sounds like the bike retailers are in on this
game, like they're making moneyfrom selling these illegal
e-bikes.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I'm glad you asked because I put a lot of thought
into this aspect, being a formerretailer, so I've heard people
say, well, they shouldn't beselling these.
They the colloquial they.
The retailer is responsible tosell products that comply with
the laws, and they're doing that.
These aren't illegal devices.
There's no law that says youcan't sell an e-bike that has a
(15:33):
power level.
You just can't operate it incertain places.
It can go out the door and beridden on private property and
it's legal.
So that's, it's not anillegality question at the
retail level.
And uh, also speaking from aretailer's perspective, it's
difficult to make a go of a bikeshop these days.
Specialty retail is a hardthing to do and so you're going
(15:54):
to have a hard time turning downa high margin sale that can
help you keep the lights on forthe betterment.
If you, even if you feel thatway and I talked to our bike
shop last night at our socialride he agreed.
He's like these things are aproblem.
They're breaking our bikehoists.
We can't, they can't facilitatea big e-bike in the shop
because they're going to injuretheir staff.
So it it's.
It's having these externalissues and that's not reconciled
(16:19):
in in what's happening.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
So I want to go back to the parents, because you said
I asked you a question wherewould the social norms be imbued
in riders?
You said well, the parents getin these bikes, they should?
I guess it's implicit.
They should tell them out of becareful.
Here's what you're supposed todo.
But a lot of parents probablydon't care, or might well they
should care, because their kidcould die.
But let's say they don't evenknow what the rules are.
(16:48):
Who would pass on thatknowledge or who would share
that knowledge?
You said the police don't wantto deal with it.
I know there's some educationat schools, but I don't know how
thorough that is.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Speaking, I got two school-aged children.
I don't think there's a lot ofthis being talked about.
When I went through school, wehad a bike rodeo.
I learned my hand signals ingrade four and they still hold
true today, and they don't havethat education in schools
anymore.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Well, that's not quite true.
I know hub cycling has beenpaid by the province to go and
do that in grades three and fourin certain schools in certain
cities or towns around theprovince.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I was just about to say we as an external group have
gone in to do this, but it'snot curriculum, it's not like an
element of a given piece of aprogram.
It's if a teacher is interested, they can contact the local
advocacy group, like hub, likethe Community Cycling Coalition,
and we will then go and do someof this stuff.
Yeah, now.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I know you've been talking to other organizations
about this elsewhere in theprovince.
What's the discussion and whatsolutions have you come up with?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
and so that that came from.
On the mountain bike side, wesaw impacts on trails.
We're seeing these electricdirt bikes.
They're tearing up the trailsand we were really upset about
that locally.
Uh, we kind of reached out toother stakeholders in the
province and found out the it'shappening everywhere in varying
amounts.
The worst was in Kamloops.
We came to learn they had areal bad case of the electric
(18:11):
mobility blues, um, damagingpublic facilities, a really bad
accident with two kids on thesethings that got maimed.
So it was really rampant thereand so we talked about okay,
well, we all identify what theproblem is.
And to your point now, what?
What's the solution For us?
On the trail side, we'retalking to provincial land
(18:33):
managers talking about they'veestablished the legal
regulations for what an e-bikeis an e-bike and what isn't, but
it's not clear and it's notclearly marked.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
So we want to improve , improve signage, things like
that so at the entrance to atrail, I would say non-legal
e-bikes only, or limited tosomething or other exactly, and
I've seen elements of this downin places like in arizona on
trails.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
So here we're looking to do more of that where we
make it clear what is and isn'tacceptable.
You know, 32 kilometers an hour, 500 watts, that's it, no
throttles.
And then hikers reading thatsign can see something that's
breaking those rules and saysomething.
If you see something, saysomething.
And now if they know the rules,that'll help.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
So we're looking to improve kind of that social and
real enforcement, although inthe forest real enforcement's
few and far between you'resuggesting that the enforcement
in off road it pretty much hasto be by peers and other people
out in the trail.
There's not going to be somepark warden or police officer
wandering around giving outtickets no, those people do
exist.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
There's jobs within BC Parks and Rec Sites and
Trails that do enforcement, butthere's so few in number
covering so much area, they'llnever solve this problem.
We're asking for that.
We're also asking and this isthe piece I think super
important is, we can get agovernment, either the federal
or provincial government, tomake changes to what's legal for
(19:57):
sale.
Because you asked about is itthe retailer's fault?
No, is it the manufacturer'sfault?
No, still complying with thelaws, although many bike
companies aren't.
By the way, they're puttingstickers on that are lying
because they say it's 250 wattspower and it's not, because they
advertise a torque numberthat's way in excess of that.
And torque and power arecorrelated through RPM, like
(20:18):
it's just formulas.
And so if somebody wasenforcing the manufacturers to
put real numbers on these things, then it would have a decal
that states what it is.
That would be a step.
But what I'm proposing andadvocating for provincially is
that they make it very clearwhat's safe and legal.
So on the e-scooter side,they've made a designation for a
(20:38):
25-kilometer-an-hour limit anda power limit I think it's 250
watts, but I'm not 100% certainand that's in the province's
proposed legislation that thecity of Mission, as one example,
is chewing on ratifying herelocally.
If they did that, that's great.
But how do you know something'scompliant?
It needs a big green sticker onit.
Shiny can't peel it off.
This thing is cool and it canride on a sidewalk and it can be
(21:02):
operated by a teenager.
That's okay.
Everything else you see doesn'thave a sticker.
Good, it's not okay.
And, like you were talkingabout in the UK, that'll make it
really clear to start dealingwith these things, confiscating
them.
If it's on a sidewalk, take itaway.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
That's one thing that could happen, but the other
part of it would be if it's nota legal e-bike, it should be
licensed and insured, correct,both on and off-road.
Yeah, is that going to happen?
Does that ever happen?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
That would require enforcement.
On-road.
You've got licensing, but youdo have then federal Transport
Canada regulations you have tocomply with for a road vehicle.
You have to have headlights,turn signals, all the stuff that
say a motorcycle would have,and then it would have to be
safety rated.
So I don't know if there's alegal path to getting an e-bike
to become a motor vehicle.
I'd suspect not, but that'splausible.
(21:53):
On the off-road side I can saythat an e-bike that exceeds the
power levels of a Class 1 e-bikecan absolutely ride on dirt
bike trails.
That's fully okay, and theywould just have to get an ORB
plate just like a dirt bike.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Okay, I wanted to talk for a moment about rentals,
because there's a lot of e-bike, shared e-bikes, now shared
scooters.
People rent them and I haveheard stories about kids getting
on these bikes.
I know from when I used to ridea motorcycle that the first 10
rides or something are that,whereas 80% of the serious
(22:28):
accidents occur.
People start to get a littlefalse confidence and then they
get stupid and they don't knowwhat they're doing and off down
they go.
Um, is there anything that therenters people who are like the
charity bikes or e-scooters isthere any qualifiers for?
If you want to pick one up, doyou have to know anything about
how to ride one of these things?
Does anybody caution you not togo too fast or watch out for
(22:52):
those big potholes with thosetiny wheels, or whatever?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
yeah, having rented.
I've rented public e-bikes inVancouver.
It was a wonderful experience.
My son and I bombed arounddowntown and had a great day.
I think if you enforce and havethat power limit and that speed
limit, then you're alsorestricting the risk here that I
think inherently comes with itwhen you learn to ride a
motorcycle.
I was given the advice that Istuck to to get a small one and
(23:18):
I did, and now I've got a verybig one and that's all fine and
well.
Um, but I didn't learn on that.
And if you keep the powerlevels low, it keeps the weight
low.
That's the thing about a smallmotorcycle and a small e-bike is
it's gonna have limited massand therefore limited risk to
others.
If you crash into somebody witha 48 pound bike, it's probably
not gonna do too much damage.
If you crash into somebody witha 48-pound bike, it's probably
not going to do too much damage.
If you crash into somebody witha 120-pound thing, with a
(23:40):
200-pound rider there's a lotthere and it's going to be a lot
worse.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
And there's not just the physical damage.
I know UBC researcherspresented at our last AT
conference the results of astudy where they asked people
for their perception of dangerand discomfort in a bike.
Separate a bike lane fromdifferent types of vehicles that
are going by.
And the one that was off thecharts for discomfort and
perceived danger and perhapsreal danger was these false
(24:09):
e-bikes that are actuallymotorcycles that are going so
fast.
So even if they're not actuallyhitting people, they're
rattling people and maybekeeping them from wanting to go
out in those bike lanesthemselves.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, I see a version of that on the trails.
When you're riding a mountainbike and ascending, so going
uphill, you're moving prettyslow.
You've got high gearing, exceptif you're on an e-bike, and so,
as somebody on a regular bikeis going uphill and then gets
passed by an e-bike that can bedoing 30 kilometers an hour
uphill while I'm, you know,going eight, it's, it's
upsetting, it's to the whoa,what's that?
(24:42):
You get startled, yeah, and itdoes.
It does take away from theexperience, but that's a bit
subjective.
Um, the bike lane side, I couldabsolutely see that.
It's that speed, delta, right,that's.
What's upsetting is if you'removing at 10 kilometers an hour
and something else is moving at50, it's a lot to process.
And if it's in close quartersI've seen those videos of
semi-trucks passing people onbikes that are kind of being
(25:04):
exposed to that risk and gettingstartled by it.
As an avid cyclist, it'sterrifying.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Well, in some ways, this is a great problem to have.
We've got more people out onactive transportation, We've got
kids actually moving around andgetting exercise and not
depending on their parents todrive them.
We've got less congestion.
We've got cleaner air all thosegood things.
So I don't want to make itsound like this is all horrible,
but it's pretty clear fromtalking to you that there are
(25:32):
some issues that have to bedealt with.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I agree with exactly what you said.
The three things that I kind ofuh capture this with is
electric mobility has been ablessing.
Um, the two blessings I mainlysee are democratized cycling.
It really kind of makes itaccessible.
You could flatten hills.
When I used to sell e-bikes I'dsay, hey, push this button, the
hill's gone and so now you canride a hill so much easier.
(25:55):
I love when I see a 70 year oldgrandfather riding out with his
20 year old grandson, like, andthey, they can do the same
trails together.
What a, what an amazing thingand the husbands and wives too.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Whichever one is the weaker rider gets to come along
and stay and keep up I'veexperienced that exactly with my
wife.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yeah, we did e-bikes and it was the great equalizer,
even though she's a very goodcyclist.
What it did is it just createda leveled up playing field.
So, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
And it also provides motorizedmobility at a fraction of the
energy.
So like, if you go to runerrands in your car, you're
talking about 75 kilowatts.
You can do the same thing onsomething like this for 0.75
(26:34):
kilowatts.
So you can do the same thing onsomething like this for 0.75
kilowatts.
So we're 100x less energy andfor a sustainable future, we
have to reduce our energy loadlike this.
It's just the way we have to go.
So we've got the blessing.
Prior to this, you and I havetalked about the curses, which
are the other side of the coin.
We're learning about theunintended consequences.
(26:55):
They're dodging and weaving andthey wear things out.
Mostly, tires and trails likethe tires wear out faster on
these machines at a bike shop.
They're going through.
They're consuming moreresources.
It takes energy to do somethingas well as put the tires on
everything.
And then the first thing out ofan e-motor.
It's created.
This gray area this is the hugeproblem is now the first thing
(27:15):
out of an e-motorcycle when theyget caught doing something they
shouldn't be is it's an e-bike,so that's, you know, part of
the curse.
And so the third thing is Ilook at the future, and the
future is we can change theregulations.
We've got some Like there'stransportation regulations that
exist.
They just need to be modernized.
The policy being proposed herein Mission, that's a provincial
(27:35):
policy.
I think it's okay.
It restricts to 16 years oldfor e-scooters and I don't think
that's fair.
I see 12-year-olds out on thesethings.
That's awesome.
This is better than themgetting driven around in a car.
They can and should be on apower and speed limited one.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But if it does 80 kilometers anhour, I don't put my
12-year-old on a motorcycle fora reason that's not going to end
(27:58):
well.
So we can update the rules.
We can make enforcement bothlegal and social enforcement
easier to do with betterindications.
This thing's legal, this one'snot, because as soon as there's
a motor involved, it's a grayarea.
But let's clear up that grayarea.
(28:22):
Big green sticker, just likethe eok for the hov lane for
your electric car right.
Big green sticker, eok in thisbike lane, and then this can
make it all sustainable.
Then we can have, uh, the rightthings in the right places and
be responsible with the use andthe one thing you didn't mention
was affordability too like, andfreedom too.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Those kids can now get around on their own, they've
got agency in their own lives,and parents don't have to have
numbers of cars and pay for allthose trips.
So it's a future we'd all loveto see, but we've just got to
figure out this thorn in theit's all roses future of e-bikes
(28:56):
yeah, the last thing that, as aformer retailer, I'll throw out
is, um, that I.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I think the right to repair would be an important
element here too.
Um, a lot of these e-devicesare being sold by websites, so
e-commerce only, or, say, a bigbox retailer.
You can go down to your localWalmart, for example, and get an
electric mobility device, ane-scooter or an e-bike.
You can get them at Best Buyeven, and so that's all fine and
well.
You can't get it fixed there,and so what then ends up
(29:25):
happening is that thing, a part,fails, they bring it to their
local bike shop.
They would bring it to me, andI can't get the part because
there's no supply chain for itto me, and I can't get the part
because there's no supply chainfor it.
I can't go to Best Buy to get amotor.
So now they spent $2,000 onthis thing, that the motor
failed and it turned into apumpkin.
So I am of the opinion that ifyou can't fix these things, you
can't sell them.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Now does that mean that they shouldn't be allowed
to sell something with a sealedbox or with no parts?
Or does it mean you're justadvising people only go and get
one at a bike store wherethey'll be able to fix it
because they'll have parts,because it's a brand name?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
My advice to anybody thinking of getting something
like this is exactly that thatgo somewhere that can't be fixed
, because then the part supplyis available.
I mean, if you do buy themonline, typically there is a
part supply there, but thenyou're fully in DIY country.
You line, typically there is aparts supply there, but then
you're fully in diy country.
(30:21):
You don't have a local resourcethat can help you for a flat
tire, dewire the motor, becausesometimes you have to take all
the wires out just to change aflat tire.
Yeah, and it's um like.
I talked to the bike shop lastnight.
They did one tire on onee-scooter and they'll never do
another one, because it was 14bolts and wiring to get the
wheel off, and now they inheritthat liability, so they're not
interested.
So now you've got how do youfix it?
You get a flat tire.
That's, that's simple.
That can happen now what wow?
(30:42):
so I think if you're going tosell them as a retailer, you
should have the capacity torepair them.
You don't have to take it therefor repair.
But if you aren't fixing them,then there you're creating a
waste stream that then can't befixed, and then this is just
more batteries and more motorsand more wheels into the world
that just get thrown awaybecause of flat tire or less.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
And if you're a prospective buyer, beware of the
lure of the cheap online priceor the ones in the lineup at,
let's say, london Drugs, wherethey used to put them as an
impulse buy in the lineup andsupport your local bike dealer,
who's probably, as you said,struggling a little bit.
Drugs, where they used to putthem in the as an impulse buy in
the lineup and but and supportyour local bike dealer, who's
probably, as you said,struggling a little bit and
needs the business and will beable to serve you better than
(31:22):
the online cheap one I agreewith that.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
I will say and I used to tell my customers this not
all big box bikes are createdequal.
They do sell some good ones too.
That's not all bad, but theyhave the capacity to sell some
really bad ones, versus thatlocal bike shop typically will
sell something that they canstand behind because they've got
to fix it.
It's going to show upeventually, come back with a
brake adjustment.
So they want something they canget parts for and it's not a
(31:46):
nightmare.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Rocky, how close are we to the green sticker?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Zero On a scale of one to ten.
I'll go one because the idea isconceived, but I'm just getting
out to a point.
We had a provincial meeting onthe trail side, um when you say
provincial meeting, who comes tothese meetings?
so the outdoor recreationcouncil of british columbia, um,
the who else was there?
The mountain bike tourismassociation and then a couple of
(32:13):
us as local trail advocates andwe're having a zoom call on all
right, this is a problemprovincially.
What are we going to do aboutit?
We're talking about going tothe ubcm and making some
awareness there.
Um, and so the green stickeridea is something I conceived as
a response to that socialenforcement thing.
And I think local places, amunicipality or a trail
association like the one I couldvolunteer for or that I do
(32:34):
volunteer for, they could dothat.
Our city could be inspectingthese devices and say, yeah,
look, that's one that'scompliant, it's speed limited,
it's power limited, here's yourdecal.
And then they're good to go.
And our trail association coulddo the same thing.
Hey, that's a pedal-assiste-bike, it's not going to hurt
the trails thing.
Hey, that's a pedal assiste-bike, it's not going to hurt
the trails.
Here's your sticker, youre-bike approved.
(32:55):
So these are something we cando as a grassroots initiative to
create that social enforcement.
These laws don't hold waterlegally, but they're.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
They're that social piece, and then, ideally, the
province or the federalgovernment can do this at a
manufacturer's level I love thatyou uh have so much confidence
in social norms and peerenforcement and people looking
out for the situation and justbeing good citizens, because it
(33:22):
would be lovely if that would bea widespread practice and
perhaps even solve this problem.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I'll say that comes from being in the forest.
That's much more commonplace onthe trails.
That's where this whole notioncame, because from 20 years of
being a trail advocate I'venoticed that the norms are
socially created.
There's no legal enforcementaround, there's zero.
So here in the urban settingyou do have police to enforce
things but, as I've been told bytheir management, they've got
(33:49):
bigger fish to fry, so it's kindof being left to us anyways
fish to fry, so it's kind ofbeing left to us.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Anyways, rocky, thanks so much for telling us
all these stories and educatingus to these problems and so on.
Is there anything else you wantto add?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I think we've covered the gamut.
I'm really grateful A for yourpodcast, sharing this wisdom of
all your guests, and I'mgrateful to have this
opportunity to talk aboutsomething I see as important.
The thing I want to get infront of the tragedy I'm trying
to stop is if an e-scooter witha youth on it gets hit by a car
(34:24):
and killed, we'll see a reactionthat kid's parents will react.
There'll be a new law I call itJimmy's Law but it's going to
be a knee-jerk reaction to areal big tragedy and we can
avoid that if we get in front ofthis, if we create the
regulations.
We have these discussions.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Well, let's stay in touch and anything the BC
Cycling Coalition could do tohelp you along, we'd be happy to
do that.
We're trying to get the RCMP tocome out, the Highway Patrol to
come out to our conference inKimberley on September 10th to
12th to talk about their view ofenforcement.
The issue that we would, ofcourse, want to raise with them
was that safe passing distanceenforcement and other things,
but generally safety forvulnerable road users from
(35:03):
whatever dangers are out therecars and trucks more
particularly, obviously, butalso, uh, bad cyclists and bad
machinery, that excess powerthat's being used irresponsibly.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, ultimately, anything that exceeds the power
levels.
I call them for what they arethey're motorcycles and these
are motorcyclists.
I'm a motorcyclist andtherefore I'm advocating for
people to be safe motorcyclistsand respect everybody else.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Thanks, rocky, great talking with you.
Thank you, great talking withyou.
Thank you.
You've been listening to BikeSense, an original podcast from
the BC Cycling Coalition.
If you like the podcast, we'dbe grateful if you could leave
(35:50):
us a rating.
On whatever platform you use,you can also subscribe, so you
don't miss future episodes.
If you have comments orsuggestions for future episodes,
email me at peterladner atbccyclingca.
You can help us amplify BCCycling Coalition's voice by
(36:12):
simply becoming a free member atbccyclingca.
Welcome to Bike Sense , the BC Cycling Coalition's
podcast, where we talk about allthings related to active
transportation advocacy in BC.
I'm your host, peter Ladner,chair of the Board of the BC
Cycling Coalition.
I hope you enjoy the show.
It's not all roses in electricmobility land was a sentence
(01:08):
that came to me from today'sguest, rocky Blunden, telling
stories about issues of e-bikesand e-scooters and irresponsible
cycling behavior.
You may have heard about the12-year-old cyclist who killed a
pedestrian in Calgary.
You may have seen gangs of14-year-olds on e-bikes and
e-scooters behaving somewhatrecklessly in a town near you.
(01:31):
You may have heard about the UKpolice impounding e-bikes that
are actually not e-bikes they'rejust motorcycles in disguise.
In disguise, and Rocky Blundinis the trail rep for the Fraser
Valley Mountain Bike Associationand a founding member for the
(01:51):
Mission Community CyclingCoalition, so he straddles both
the mountain bike issues relatedto this topic and the ones in
the cities.
Welcome, rocky.
Hi Peter, thanks for having methe cities.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Welcome Rocky.
Hi Peter, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So, before we start, I just want to ask you what was
your latest bike ride thatyou've done?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Last night Fraser Valley Mountain Bike Association
had a social ride here inMission up on Bear Mountain, so
I rode to the hills and did sometrails in light rain with about
30 or 40 others.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Very nice, yeah, right around the same time I was
at the opening ride for theGranville connector in Vancouver
.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Oh fun.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
How many bikes do you own?
Honestly straight to the pointhere 11.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Whoa.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
That's just you, I have six.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
There's 11 in my garage.
Your wife has the other five,my wife has two, my son has two
and my other son has one.
I don't know if that adds up to11, but I'm pretty sure there's
11 down there.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Okay, so you qualify for the podcast I I it full
disclosure.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I used to own a bike shop.
I got caveat that that I owneda bike shop up until 2023 and
therefore comes with theterritory you kind of have to as
a business practice.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So oh, okay.
So I was going to ask you howyou got involved with cycling
advocacy.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Uh, that is a good question.
So I started mountain biking in2003,.
Give or take, my collegeroommate dragged me up to SFU
and then I found out there was agroup working on those trails,
got interested in what thatmeant, I went to their AGM and
sat down.
It was my first AGM I'd everbeen to for any organization.
I was in my early 20s and theysaid at the end of the meeting
(03:35):
they were looking for extraboard members.
They said, well, we need acouple more board members so
we're giving away a hat.
Anybody want a free hat?
I said, well, that sounds great, I'll take a free hat.
So I signed up for the board,not having no idea what that
meant, and I quickly became aboard member of the Burnaby
Mountain Bike Association.
And from that point forwardI've been on the board of the
Burnaby Mountain BikeAssociation, involved with the
(03:57):
Tri-Cities Off-Road CyclingAssociation and now here in
Mission with the Fraser ValleyMountain Biking Association.
And through that affiliation Igot pulled into call it urban
cycling advocacy.
The city of Mission formed acycling task force and my name
was on the list of people topester to join that to figure
(04:17):
out where to put bike lanes andsuch in our community.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Now you have a special status in my heart and
mind because you're a podcastfan.
You approached us about thispodcast and you mentioned that,
as a result of listening to thispodcast, your wife, I believe,
was going to, or would like to,start a chapter of Cycling
Without Age, taking elderlypeople around in trash hos.
(04:40):
Is that happening?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, I feel a bit of first-time caller, long-time
listener here, and so we'velistened to the podcast on and
off and one of the episodes didinspire us to investigate what
that looked like.
That community has beenwelcoming to learn about and my
wife's taking the lead there.
Cheryl she's looking intoopening a chapter here next year
.
They did caution, all thechallenges associated costs and
(05:05):
logistics, so she's workingthrough those, but it's looking
promising and it just soundswonderful because it resonated
with me.
My mom died a couple of yearsago and had some cognitive
decline and all she reallywanted in her elder years was to
to ride a bike again, and Iwould have loved for that
program to exist.
If I could have taken my momfor a bike ride, it would have
(05:27):
basically, yeah, made her year.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
So to do that for others would be wonderful.
Why did you contact me?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
So I reached out because I'm working on an
awareness advocacy campaigncontained within electric
mobility awareness advocacycampaign contained within
electric mobility.
I'm seeing a common elementbetween what challenges related
to e-scooters and e-bikes andthey overlap so you can almost
capture the whole problem withinwithout identifying each
element.
And it amounts to.
(05:57):
Historically, we had a veryclear delineation between a
motorized thing and anon-motorized thing.
So you had, if it had an enginelike a dirt bike, it was a
motorized thing.
If non-motorized thing, so youhad, if it had an engine like a
dirt bike, it was a motorizedthing.
If it was a pedal bike, it wasdifferent.
And it's only with electricmobility that those lines have
crossed over, and it'sespecially with e-bikes because
a pedal assist class one,e-bikes is treated in our, in bc
(06:22):
, uh, as a cycle, as a bicycle,it's not any different.
So you can ride on trails, youcan ride in bike paths, and so
that's the legal frameworkaround.
It Sounds great, I support thatand think it's wonderful.
However, that opened kind ofthe fox into the henhouse and
now electric motors of biggerand more powerful means are
going on the trails, are goinginto bike lanes and, like you
(06:44):
talked in the intro aboutmotorcycles couching themselves
as e-bikes.
When I encounter one of thesedevices that shouldn't be where
it is, the first thing out oftheir mouth is I say well,
that's a motorcycle, youshouldn't be here.
And they go no, it's an e-bikeand it's an electric motorcycle,
but it's the first thing.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So where would you draw the line between motorized
and non-motorized?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So for me and that's where e-scooters and e-bikes do
have a bit of a delineationE-bikes it's pedal assist, only
32 kilometers an hour, max 500watts, and those are the
regulations that the provincialgovernment has put onto trails
and for most bike paths.
I think this is where theregulatory environment is really
confusing, because the off-roaduse and the on-road use rules
(07:32):
don't overlap.
They don't overlap perfectly,and so it creates gray areas.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Why, then, is it possible to sell an illegal
e-bike?
I've seen these ones with thelittle faux pedals sticking out
that I don't even know if theyeven move, but they're supposed
to make it look like an e-bike,I think.
And yet it's all souped up andway over the limits you just
described.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, funny enough, that problem is, I think, as old
as time, because I remember asa kid gas-powered mopeds having
little pedals hanging off thesides, so they were low power
motorized vehicles, couchingthemselves as something else,
and the pedals were purelydecorative.
So that's not actually new,that the means of powering it it
can be, you know, gasoline, itcan be electric, it could be a
(08:17):
nuclear reactor, it's all thesame.
Outcome here it's that that's amotorized machine and it
shouldn't be where it's going.
And but the e-bikes beingallowed, there is the thing
that's now blurted because you,you're letting that person with
pedals and a motor in.
Why can't I go?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
why does it matter?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
um, so I can.
I could speak to the trail sideand then my urban environment
side.
So I live in a suburbanenvironment.
Um, we've got e-scooters, thegangs we talked about, rolling
around teenagers everywhere.
I think it's one part.
Wonderful, and then alsoterrifying when they're doing 80
kilometers an hour on asidewalk and cutting into
traffic.
That's terrifying 80.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Wait, hang on 80 kilometers an hour on a sidewalk
that actually happens aremoving yes, okay not all that,
they all come.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
They all come in various power levels, um and so,
but there's some.
There's a one specific in ourneighborhood, absolutely it's
doing 80, 90 like yeah okay, sospeeding, dangerous behavior,
dangerous riding yeah, and thespeeding comes with the inertia
behind it.
You've got a machine and aperson doing a lot of you know,
uh, got a lot of power there,and so they can hurt themselves
(09:28):
and others.
Um, so that's on the urban side.
And then we've got, um, thesethings are normally called
surrounds or, you know, commonlycalled surrounds, but it's an
electric motorcycle or electricdirt bike and we see those
running around the city parks.
We built a pump track here forcyclists and they're riding the
pump track and endangering thekids that are using that,
because now it's a motorcyclethat can land on a kid who's on
(09:48):
a scooter.
It's it's a mismatched use.
You typically don't want, youknow, you don't want your kid
playing in traffic.
You don't want a motorcycle ona pump track.
That's a bad idea and it isillegal.
That's explicitly forbidden onthe science, but people are
doing it so if it's illegal,what sort of is there?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Does anybody ever go to a bike shop and say, what are
you doing with that bike?
Or, like they did in the UK, dothe police go around and grab
these bikes and take them awayand pound them or confiscate
them in some way?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Here in Mission I'll speak to that.
So our community has gone onthe record.
The CAO has stated that theRCMP won't enforce e-scooter and
e-bike regulations becausethey're too busy dealing with
other things.
So it's a case where the youknow from call it management
directive is that's not a crimewe're worth pursuing.
(10:38):
But then it's also, I don'tthink historically we've had a
lot of enforcement in theseareas because you know, when I
was young, friends of mine wouldride their dirt bikes around
town.
We lived in a rural part ofLangley.
You typically didn't worryabout police.
You were far more concernedabout social enforcement.
I think that's actually a hugecomponent that's kind of missing
today where, if you understandwhat the social norms are we
(11:00):
were more concerned aboutgetting caught by somebody's mom
on the dirt bike than we wereby the police.
Norms are we were moreconcerned about getting caught
by somebody's mom on the dirtbike than we were by the police.
And if those social norms arekind of clear, if that scooter
is okay on the sidewalk becauseit's low power, low speed, or if
that bike is an e-bike withpedal assist and all the power
limits and accepted where it'ssupposed to go, then it'll be
(11:21):
okay.
Then people can identify thatand be okay with it and,
conversely, criticize somebodywho's not a pedestrian on the
sidewalk and say, hey, you'renot supposed to be here, but
right now the pedestrian on thesidewalk doesn't know the rules.
The RCMP honestly have had ahard time understanding the
rules.
I've met several officers thataren't clear on the legislation.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So, rocky, you talk about social norms, but where do
these norms come from?
Do people, are they expected tobe educated in?
I don't know school about rulesof the road, is it something?
There's no driver education ortesting because these vehicles
are all unlicensed and uninsured.
How does somebody learn whatthey should and shouldn't do?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Great question.
I'm not a sociologist so I willdo a poor job of answering, but
in my opinion I see thisthrough parenting and the like
and it amounts to a lot of thechallenges with youth on these
devices, amounts to parents thathave purchased them for them
and kind of just unlocked themwith them and said all right off
, you go without any boundaries.
(12:23):
And that's not critical of theparents, it's just an
observation that social normsyou know culturally I mentioned
before about.
You know I was worried aboutgetting caught by my friend's
mom on the dirt bike.
You know the parents createdthat social norm for our teenage
community and then we as adultsdo for each other too.
I talk to my friends about oh,you're doing what with your
e-bike?
(12:43):
Oh, that doesn't sound right.
There too I talked to myfriends about oh, you're doing
what with your e-bike?
Oh, that doesn't sound right.
And I, you know a sour look onmy face will indicate just the
emotions contained within and myfriend might adjust his
behavior.
And then if I encountersomebody on the sidewalk and I'm
personally doing this trying tohave that conversation I did it
with a person on a gravel pathin a park on an electric
motorcycle.
This thing looked like a Hondastreet bike and I had the
(13:06):
conversation.
It's a tough conversation.
It requires me to say hey man,can you stop for a second?
I want to talk to you aboutwhat you're doing, and what
you're doing isn't legal andit's not right.
And he refuted it.
He didn't agree with myperspective, told me it was an
e-bike, told me he was allowedto do it.
Told me the RCMP had told himit was okay.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Do you think that he was just being devious, or did
he actually believe all that?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I genuinely think he was telling the truth when he
said the RCMP accepted what hewas doing, because I've heard it
myself from RCMP officers.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Wait, they're okay with people going 80k down the
sidewalks on an illegal e-bike.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I'd suspect that any RCMP officers that saw that
happening would intervene.
But this person was just on anelectric motorcycle in a city
park, traveling at low speeds,so therefore doing something
that doesn't appear objectivelyproblematic but is inherently
illegal.
Because you're riding amotorcycle in a city park If I
took my Yamaha in there, itwould stop me right away but
(14:04):
because this thing has a plateon the back that says e-bike and
is powered by a battery,they're acting and reacting
differently.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
And was that person riding under 32 k's per hour?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Not with any technological enforcement.
And that's the thing about ane-bike that is regulated to that
speed.
It's done through software andthrough a speed sensor and that
device the device that I sawthis gentleman on, could do 80,
no problem, or more, I bet you.
It could go 120.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So you used to be in the business.
I understand.
It's not that hard to take thegovernors off these e-bikes and
turn them into real motorcycles.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Now that I'm a former retailer, I can say Did you
ever do that, Rocky?
I've never done that.
No, I don't own an e-bike oroperate any of these things.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
but Do you know people who've done that?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yes, and it's not hard.
Oh, okay, yes, and it's nothard, okay, no, you just have
the light of the speed sensor.
Not that I'm teaching kids howto do this, but you just have to
tell it the information itneeds to know, and then you can
unlock.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So it sounds like the bike retailers are in on this
game, like they're making moneyfrom selling these illegal
e-bikes.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I'm glad you asked because I put a lot of thought
into this aspect, being a formerretailer, so I've heard people
say, well, they shouldn't beselling these.
They the colloquial they.
The retailer is responsible tosell products that comply with
the laws, and they're doing that.
These aren't illegal devices.
There's no law that says youcan't sell an e-bike that has a
(15:33):
power level.
You just can't operate it incertain places.
It can go out the door and beridden on private property and
it's legal.
So that's, it's not anillegality question at the
retail level.
And uh, also speaking from aretailer's perspective, it's
difficult to make a go of a bikeshop these days.
Specialty retail is a hardthing to do and so you're going
(15:54):
to have a hard time turning downa high margin sale that can
help you keep the lights on forthe betterment.
If you, even if you feel thatway and I talked to our bike
shop last night at our socialride he agreed.
He's like these things are aproblem.
They're breaking our bikehoists.
We can't, they can't facilitatea big e-bike in the shop
because they're going to injuretheir staff.
So it it's.
It's having these externalissues and that's not reconciled
(16:19):
in in what's happening.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
So I want to go back to the parents, because you said
I asked you a question wherewould the social norms be imbued
in riders?
You said well, the parents getin these bikes, they should?
I guess it's implicit.
They should tell them out of becareful.
Here's what you're supposed todo.
But a lot of parents probablydon't care, or might well they
should care, because their kidcould die.
But let's say they don't evenknow what the rules are.
(16:48):
Who would pass on thatknowledge or who would share
that knowledge?
You said the police don't wantto deal with it.
I know there's some educationat schools, but I don't know how
thorough that is.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Speaking, I got two school-aged children.
I don't think there's a lot ofthis being talked about.
When I went through school, wehad a bike rodeo.
I learned my hand signals ingrade four and they still hold
true today, and they don't havethat education in schools
anymore.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Well, that's not quite true.
I know hub cycling has beenpaid by the province to go and
do that in grades three and fourin certain schools in certain
cities or towns around theprovince.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I was just about to say we as an external group have
gone in to do this, but it'snot curriculum, it's not like an
element of a given piece of aprogram.
It's if a teacher is interested, they can contact the local
advocacy group, like hub, likethe Community Cycling Coalition,
and we will then go and do someof this stuff.
Yeah, now.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I know you've been talking to other organizations
about this elsewhere in theprovince.
What's the discussion and whatsolutions have you come up with?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
and so that that came from.
On the mountain bike side, wesaw impacts on trails.
We're seeing these electricdirt bikes.
They're tearing up the trailsand we were really upset about
that locally.
Uh, we kind of reached out toother stakeholders in the
province and found out the it'shappening everywhere in varying
amounts.
The worst was in Kamloops.
We came to learn they had areal bad case of the electric
(18:11):
mobility blues, um, damagingpublic facilities, a really bad
accident with two kids on thesethings that got maimed.
So it was really rampant thereand so we talked about okay,
well, we all identify what theproblem is.
And to your point now, what?
What's the solution For us?
On the trail side, we'retalking to provincial land
(18:33):
managers talking about they'veestablished the legal
regulations for what an e-bikeis an e-bike and what isn't, but
it's not clear and it's notclearly marked.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
So we want to improve , improve signage, things like
that so at the entrance to atrail, I would say non-legal
e-bikes only, or limited tosomething or other exactly, and
I've seen elements of this downin places like in arizona on
trails.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
So here we're looking to do more of that where we
make it clear what is and isn'tacceptable.
You know, 32 kilometers an hour, 500 watts, that's it, no
throttles.
And then hikers reading thatsign can see something that's
breaking those rules and saysomething.
If you see something, saysomething.
And now if they know the rules,that'll help.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
So we're looking to improve kind of that social and
real enforcement, although inthe forest real enforcement's
few and far between you'resuggesting that the enforcement
in off road it pretty much hasto be by peers and other people
out in the trail.
There's not going to be somepark warden or police officer
wandering around giving outtickets no, those people do
exist.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
There's jobs within BC Parks and Rec Sites and
Trails that do enforcement, butthere's so few in number
covering so much area, they'llnever solve this problem.
We're asking for that.
We're also asking and this isthe piece I think super
important is, we can get agovernment, either the federal
or provincial government, tomake changes to what's legal for
(19:57):
sale.
Because you asked about is itthe retailer's fault?
No, is it the manufacturer'sfault?
No, still complying with thelaws, although many bike
companies aren't.
By the way, they're puttingstickers on that are lying
because they say it's 250 wattspower and it's not, because they
advertise a torque numberthat's way in excess of that.
And torque and power arecorrelated through RPM, like
(20:18):
it's just formulas.
And so if somebody wasenforcing the manufacturers to
put real numbers on these things, then it would have a decal
that states what it is.
That would be a step.
But what I'm proposing andadvocating for provincially is
that they make it very clearwhat's safe and legal.
So on the e-scooter side,they've made a designation for a
(20:38):
25-kilometer-an-hour limit anda power limit I think it's 250
watts, but I'm not 100% certainand that's in the province's
proposed legislation that thecity of Mission, as one example,
is chewing on ratifying herelocally.
If they did that, that's great.
But how do you know something'scompliant?
It needs a big green sticker onit.
Shiny can't peel it off.
This thing is cool and it canride on a sidewalk and it can be
(21:02):
operated by a teenager.
That's okay.
Everything else you see doesn'thave a sticker.
Good, it's not okay.
And, like you were talkingabout in the UK, that'll make it
really clear to start dealingwith these things, confiscating
them.
If it's on a sidewalk, take itaway.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
That's one thing that could happen, but the other
part of it would be if it's nota legal e-bike, it should be
licensed and insured, correct,both on and off-road.
Yeah, is that going to happen?
Does that ever happen?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
That would require enforcement.
On-road.
You've got licensing, but youdo have then federal Transport
Canada regulations you have tocomply with for a road vehicle.
You have to have headlights,turn signals, all the stuff that
say a motorcycle would have,and then it would have to be
safety rated.
So I don't know if there's alegal path to getting an e-bike
to become a motor vehicle.
I'd suspect not, but that'splausible.
(21:53):
On the off-road side I can saythat an e-bike that exceeds the
power levels of a Class 1 e-bikecan absolutely ride on dirt
bike trails.
That's fully okay, and theywould just have to get an ORB
plate just like a dirt bike.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Okay, I wanted to talk for a moment about rentals,
because there's a lot of e-bike, shared e-bikes, now shared
scooters.
People rent them and I haveheard stories about kids getting
on these bikes.
I know from when I used to ridea motorcycle that the first 10
rides or something are that,whereas 80% of the serious
(22:28):
accidents occur.
People start to get a littlefalse confidence and then they
get stupid and they don't knowwhat they're doing and off down
they go.
Um, is there anything that therenters people who are like the
charity bikes or e-scooters isthere any qualifiers for?
If you want to pick one up, doyou have to know anything about
how to ride one of these things?
Does anybody caution you not togo too fast or watch out for
(22:52):
those big potholes with thosetiny wheels, or whatever?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
yeah, having rented.
I've rented public e-bikes inVancouver.
It was a wonderful experience.
My son and I bombed arounddowntown and had a great day.
I think if you enforce and havethat power limit and that speed
limit, then you're alsorestricting the risk here that I
think inherently comes with itwhen you learn to ride a
motorcycle.
I was given the advice that Istuck to to get a small one and
(23:18):
I did, and now I've got a verybig one and that's all fine and
well.
Um, but I didn't learn on that.
And if you keep the powerlevels low, it keeps the weight
low.
That's the thing about a smallmotorcycle and a small e-bike is
it's gonna have limited massand therefore limited risk to
others.
If you crash into somebody witha 48 pound bike, it's probably
not gonna do too much damage.
If you crash into somebody witha 48-pound bike, it's probably
not going to do too much damage.
If you crash into somebody witha 120-pound thing, with a
(23:40):
200-pound rider there's a lotthere and it's going to be a lot
worse.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
And there's not just the physical damage.
I know UBC researcherspresented at our last AT
conference the results of astudy where they asked people
for their perception of dangerand discomfort in a bike.
Separate a bike lane fromdifferent types of vehicles that
are going by.
And the one that was off thecharts for discomfort and
perceived danger and perhapsreal danger was these false
(24:09):
e-bikes that are actuallymotorcycles that are going so
fast.
So even if they're not actuallyhitting people, they're
rattling people and maybekeeping them from wanting to go
out in those bike lanesthemselves.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, I see a version of that on the trails.
When you're riding a mountainbike and ascending, so going
uphill, you're moving prettyslow.
You've got high gearing, exceptif you're on an e-bike, and so,
as somebody on a regular bikeis going uphill and then gets
passed by an e-bike that can bedoing 30 kilometers an hour
uphill while I'm, you know,going eight, it's, it's
upsetting, it's to the whoa,what's that?
(24:42):
You get startled, yeah, and itdoes.
It does take away from theexperience, but that's a bit
subjective.
Um, the bike lane side, I couldabsolutely see that.
It's that speed, delta, right,that's.
What's upsetting is if you'removing at 10 kilometers an hour
and something else is moving at50, it's a lot to process.
And if it's in close quartersI've seen those videos of
semi-trucks passing people onbikes that are kind of being
(25:04):
exposed to that risk and gettingstartled by it.
As an avid cyclist, it'sterrifying.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Well, in some ways, this is a great problem to have.
We've got more people out onactive transportation, We've got
kids actually moving around andgetting exercise and not
depending on their parents todrive them.
We've got less congestion.
We've got cleaner air all thosegood things.
So I don't want to make itsound like this is all horrible,
but it's pretty clear fromtalking to you that there are
(25:32):
some issues that have to bedealt with.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I agree with exactly what you said.
The three things that I kind ofuh capture this with is
electric mobility has been ablessing.
Um, the two blessings I mainlysee are democratized cycling.
It really kind of makes itaccessible.
You could flatten hills.
When I used to sell e-bikes I'dsay, hey, push this button, the
hill's gone and so now you canride a hill so much easier.
(25:55):
I love when I see a 70 year oldgrandfather riding out with his
20 year old grandson, like, andthey, they can do the same
trails together.
What a, what an amazing thingand the husbands and wives too.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Whichever one is the weaker rider gets to come along
and stay and keep up I'veexperienced that exactly with my
wife.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yeah, we did e-bikes and it was the great equalizer,
even though she's a very goodcyclist.
What it did is it just createda leveled up playing field.
So, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
And it also provides motorizedmobility at a fraction of the
energy.
So like, if you go to runerrands in your car, you're
talking about 75 kilowatts.
You can do the same thing onsomething like this for 0.75
(26:34):
kilowatts.
So you can do the same thing onsomething like this for 0.75
kilowatts.
So we're 100x less energy andfor a sustainable future, we
have to reduce our energy loadlike this.
It's just the way we have to go.
So we've got the blessing.
Prior to this, you and I havetalked about the curses, which
are the other side of the coin.
We're learning about theunintended consequences.
(26:55):
They're dodging and weaving andthey wear things out.
Mostly, tires and trails likethe tires wear out faster on
these machines at a bike shop.
They're going through.
They're consuming moreresources.
It takes energy to do somethingas well as put the tires on
everything.
And then the first thing out ofan e-motor.
It's created.
This gray area this is the hugeproblem is now the first thing
(27:15):
out of an e-motorcycle when theyget caught doing something they
shouldn't be is it's an e-bike,so that's, you know, part of
the curse.
And so the third thing is Ilook at the future, and the
future is we can change theregulations.
We've got some Like there'stransportation regulations that
exist.
They just need to be modernized.
The policy being proposed herein Mission, that's a provincial
(27:35):
policy.
I think it's okay.
It restricts to 16 years oldfor e-scooters and I don't think
that's fair.
I see 12-year-olds out on thesethings.
That's awesome.
This is better than themgetting driven around in a car.
They can and should be on apower and speed limited one.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But if it does 80 kilometers anhour, I don't put my
12-year-old on a motorcycle fora reason that's not going to end
(27:58):
well.
So we can update the rules.
We can make enforcement bothlegal and social enforcement
easier to do with betterindications.
This thing's legal, this one'snot, because as soon as there's
a motor involved, it's a grayarea.
But let's clear up that grayarea.
(28:22):
Big green sticker, just likethe eok for the hov lane for
your electric car right.
Big green sticker, eok in thisbike lane, and then this can
make it all sustainable.
Then we can have, uh, the rightthings in the right places and
be responsible with the use andthe one thing you didn't mention
was affordability too like, andfreedom too.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Those kids can now get around on their own, they've
got agency in their own lives,and parents don't have to have
numbers of cars and pay for allthose trips.
So it's a future we'd all loveto see, but we've just got to
figure out this thorn in theit's all roses future of e-bikes
(28:56):
yeah, the last thing that, as aformer retailer, I'll throw out
is, um, that I.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I think the right to repair would be an important
element here too.
Um, a lot of these e-devicesare being sold by websites, so
e-commerce only, or, say, a bigbox retailer.
You can go down to your localWalmart, for example, and get an
electric mobility device, ane-scooter or an e-bike.
You can get them at Best Buyeven, and so that's all fine and
well.
You can't get it fixed there,and so what then ends up
(29:25):
happening is that thing, a part,fails, they bring it to their
local bike shop.
They would bring it to me, andI can't get the part because
there's no supply chain for itto me, and I can't get the part
because there's no supply chainfor it.
I can't go to Best Buy to get amotor.
So now they spent $2,000 onthis thing, that the motor
failed and it turned into apumpkin.
So I am of the opinion that ifyou can't fix these things, you
can't sell them.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Now does that mean that they shouldn't be allowed
to sell something with a sealedbox or with no parts?
Or does it mean you're justadvising people only go and get
one at a bike store wherethey'll be able to fix it
because they'll have parts,because it's a brand name?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
My advice to anybody thinking of getting something
like this is exactly that thatgo somewhere that can't be fixed
, because then the part supplyis available.
I mean, if you do buy themonline, typically there is a
part supply there, but thenyou're fully in DIY country.
You line, typically there is aparts supply there, but then
you're fully in diy country.
(30:21):
You don't have a local resourcethat can help you for a flat
tire, dewire the motor, becausesometimes you have to take all
the wires out just to change aflat tire.
Yeah, and it's um like.
I talked to the bike shop lastnight.
They did one tire on onee-scooter and they'll never do
another one, because it was 14bolts and wiring to get the
wheel off, and now they inheritthat liability, so they're not
interested.
So now you've got how do youfix it?
You get a flat tire.
That's, that's simple.
That can happen now what wow?
(30:42):
so I think if you're going tosell them as a retailer, you
should have the capacity torepair them.
You don't have to take it therefor repair.
But if you aren't fixing them,then there you're creating a
waste stream that then can't befixed, and then this is just
more batteries and more motorsand more wheels into the world
that just get thrown awaybecause of flat tire or less.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
And if you're a prospective buyer, beware of the
lure of the cheap online priceor the ones in the lineup at,
let's say, london Drugs, wherethey used to put them as an
impulse buy in the lineup andsupport your local bike dealer,
who's probably, as you said,struggling a little bit.
Drugs, where they used to putthem in the as an impulse buy in
the lineup and but and supportyour local bike dealer, who's
probably, as you said,struggling a little bit and
needs the business and will beable to serve you better than
(31:22):
the online cheap one I agreewith that.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
I will say and I used to tell my customers this not
all big box bikes are createdequal.
They do sell some good ones too.
That's not all bad, but theyhave the capacity to sell some
really bad ones, versus thatlocal bike shop typically will
sell something that they canstand behind because they've got
to fix it.
It's going to show upeventually, come back with a
brake adjustment.
So they want something they canget parts for and it's not a
(31:46):
nightmare.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Rocky, how close are we to the green sticker?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Zero On a scale of one to ten.
I'll go one because the idea isconceived, but I'm just getting
out to a point.
We had a provincial meeting onthe trail side, um when you say
provincial meeting, who comes tothese meetings?
so the outdoor recreationcouncil of british columbia, um,
the who else was there?
The mountain bike tourismassociation and then a couple of
(32:13):
us as local trail advocates andwe're having a zoom call on all
right, this is a problemprovincially.
What are we going to do aboutit?
We're talking about going tothe ubcm and making some
awareness there.
Um, and so the green stickeridea is something I conceived as
a response to that socialenforcement thing.
And I think local places, amunicipality or a trail
association like the one I couldvolunteer for or that I do
(32:34):
volunteer for, they could dothat.
Our city could be inspectingthese devices and say, yeah,
look, that's one that'scompliant, it's speed limited,
it's power limited, here's yourdecal.
And then they're good to go.
And our trail association coulddo the same thing.
Hey, that's a pedal-assiste-bike, it's not going to hurt
the trails thing.
Hey, that's a pedal assiste-bike, it's not going to hurt
the trails.
Here's your sticker, youre-bike approved.
(32:55):
So these are something we cando as a grassroots initiative to
create that social enforcement.
These laws don't hold waterlegally, but they're.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
They're that social piece, and then, ideally, the
province or the federalgovernment can do this at a
manufacturer's level I love thatyou uh have so much confidence
in social norms and peerenforcement and people looking
out for the situation and justbeing good citizens, because it
(33:22):
would be lovely if that would bea widespread practice and
perhaps even solve this problem.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I'll say that comes from being in the forest.
That's much more commonplace onthe trails.
That's where this whole notioncame, because from 20 years of
being a trail advocate I'venoticed that the norms are
socially created.
There's no legal enforcementaround, there's zero.
So here in the urban settingyou do have police to enforce
things but, as I've been told bytheir management, they've got
(33:49):
bigger fish to fry, so it's kindof being left to us anyways
fish to fry, so it's kind ofbeing left to us.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Anyways, rocky, thanks so much for telling us
all these stories and educatingus to these problems and so on.
Is there anything else you wantto add?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I think we've covered the gamut.
I'm really grateful A for yourpodcast, sharing this wisdom of
all your guests, and I'mgrateful to have this
opportunity to talk aboutsomething I see as important.
The thing I want to get infront of the tragedy I'm trying
to stop is if an e-scooter witha youth on it gets hit by a car
(34:24):
and killed, we'll see a reactionthat kid's parents will react.
There'll be a new law I call itJimmy's Law but it's going to
be a knee-jerk reaction to areal big tragedy and we can
avoid that if we get in front ofthis, if we create the
regulations.
We have these discussions.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Well, let's stay in touch and anything the BC
Cycling Coalition could do tohelp you along, we'd be happy to
do that.
We're trying to get the RCMP tocome out, the Highway Patrol to
come out to our conference inKimberley on September 10th to
12th to talk about their view ofenforcement.
The issue that we would, ofcourse, want to raise with them
was that safe passing distanceenforcement and other things,
but generally safety forvulnerable road users from
(35:03):
whatever dangers are out therecars and trucks more
particularly, obviously, butalso, uh, bad cyclists and bad
machinery, that excess powerthat's being used irresponsibly.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, ultimately, anything that exceeds the power
levels.
I call them for what they arethey're motorcycles and these
are motorcyclists.
I'm a motorcyclist andtherefore I'm advocating for
people to be safe motorcyclistsand respect everybody else.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Thanks, rocky, great talking with you.
Thank you, great talking withyou.
Thank you.
You've been listening to BikeSense, an original podcast from
the BC Cycling Coalition.
If you like the podcast, we'dbe grateful if you could leave
(35:50):
us a rating.
On whatever platform you use,you can also subscribe, so you
don't miss future episodes.
If you have comments orsuggestions for future episodes,
email me at peterladner atbccyclingca.
You can help us amplify BCCycling Coalition's voice by
(36:12):
simply becoming a free member atbccyclingca.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.