July 31, 2025 • 27 mins
Until only recently, treating Glioblastoma brain cancer with chemotherapy has not been achievable due to the blood brain barrier. In today’s Bindwaves episode, Dr. Michael Canney walks us through how Carthera developed a revolutionary method to deliver therapeutics to the brain utilizing an ultrasound system. It is well known that the survival rate for Glioblastoma is 1 to 2 years. Surgery tends to be the primary means to combat this horrible disease. To improve these odds, an ultrasound implant is placed in the brain after the surgeon removes the tumor. This implant, or mesh, contains an ultrasound transducer, which when activated during chemo treatments, disrupts the blood brain barrier thus allowing therapeutics to attach to the cancer cells. Join us as Dr. Canney eloquently discusses the history of this treatment, Phase 1 and Phase 2 results, and their hopes for the Phase 3 trial.
You can find this episode’s transcript here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Opinions shared by the guests ofthe show are their own and do
not necessarily represent theviews of the hosts bindwaves or
the Brain Injury Network.
This podcast is forinformational purposes only, and
it's not a substitute forprofessional medical advice, the
diagnosis or treatment.
Always seek the advice of ahealthcare provider with any
(00:32):
questions you may have regardinga medical condition.
Thank you.
Carrie (00:39):
Hi, I'm Carrie, a stroke survivor and a member of BIND,
and today we're gonna welcomeDr.
Michael Canney.
He is the Chief ScientificOfficer at Carthera.
I dunno if I said that right.
He'll correct me in a minute.
A med tech company drivinginnovative advances in brain
cancer treatment.
His work fo focuses ondeveloping new therapies for.
(01:00):
Glioblastoma neuro-oncology andneuro-degenerative diseases with
over 50 peer reviewed pupublications and a strong
commitment to academiccollaboration.
Michael brings a valuableperspective on improving patient
output.
So I know I just said all thatto introduce you, but how about
in your own words, you kind oftell us a little about you
(01:22):
better and maybe say all thewords correctly.
Michael (01:26):
Yeah, we can start again.
Yeah, so the name of the companyis Carthera Carthera.
Um, and we're a French med techcompany, uh, with some US
presence.
Obviously I'm based here inDenver, Colorado.
Um, and we're developing, uh, anultrasound system for delivering
drugs to the brain.
we'll talk a little bit moreabout today.
I.
Carrie (01:46):
Okay.
Sounds exciting.
Okay, so, um, just to getstarted, so what made you decide
to.
Get into the brain world, oreven maybe more specifically
brain cancer research.
That's kind of a unique field inmy opinion.
I don't know, maybe not.
Michael (02:08):
It is.
Yeah, I ca I came about it a alittle bit through, through a
different route, which is thatI, I did my research, um, as
part of my doc.
In therapeutic ultrasound, whichis using, you know, ultrasound
in new ways, not just forimaging, um, but for, for
therapy.
And that can be, uh, a lot ofdifferent things are being
explored with ultrasound, uh,from using it as a replacement
(02:30):
for surgery for actuallydestroying tissue, uh, to drug
delivery, which we're gonna talkabout today.
And, and drug delivery issomething that's been explored
at least for the brain usingultrasound for about 20 years.
I got involved in a project, uh,while I was doing a postdoc in
France with a Frenchneurosurgeon, NA, named
Alexander Pontier, who had theidea for the system.
(02:52):
Uh, uh, this ultrasound systemthat we've developed, which is
an ultrasound implant that's,that's placed to help, uh, help
with drug delivery for, forthings like brain cancer.
Carrie (03:03):
Interesting.
Okay, now let's, I mean, that's,when we say brain cancer, I know
most people just think verygeneric brain cancer.
So for myself and for thelisteners, I mean, I know a lot
I.
Not a lot.
I know a little bit about a lotof things, especially when it
comes to the brain, you know,being brain injured myself.
But, um, so like how manydifferent types of brain cancer
(03:27):
are there?
Because I mean, I know you'refocusing mainly on glioblastoma.
I never say it right, but, um.
Michael (03:34):
Yeah, we're, we're focused on, you know, these
types of primary brain tumors.
You, you can divide up braintumors into primary and then
secondary brain tumors, whichwould be a brain tumor.
Say like you have breast cancerand you have metastasis that
goes to the brain.
that would be a, you know, asecondary, uh, a brain tumor.
But we're really focused onthese primary brain tumors
called glioblastoma.
(03:54):
and here in the US they affect,you know, around 10,000 people a
year.
and it's a very aggressive.
Tumor.
It's the most aggressive, uh,uh, brain tumor in that, you
know, there's very few treatmentoptions and, and once a patient
gets a glioblastoma, theirsurvival is, is fairly short.
It's, it's on the order of oneor two years.
Carrie (04:14):
Yeah.
So, okay.
That, so I know, um, we partnerwith a group here in North Texas
area called Gray Matters.
They are a gray, or they are abrain cancer support group.
So we kind of collaborate withthem to do stuff.
You know, we're all differentkinds of brain injury survivors
here, but we do have some withtumors and some cancer.
(04:36):
And then, you know, the typicalstroke and traumatic brain
injury, all kinds of randomthings.
Um, so I mean, are therespecific factors that make.
Brain cancer so deadly.
I mean, what, why is it, Iguess, you know, do we know why
it's what it is?
(04:56):
Or.
Michael (04:58):
Yeah, there's a lot of reasons that, uh, we, we, we
think, but we can just startwith the basics.
So if you, if you get aglioblastoma, the first thing
they'll typically do is surgery.
Um, so a neurosurgeon will go inand they'll, they'll try to cut
out the tumor just like theywould with a different kind of
cancer.
I.
The problem with glioblastomasis typically is that they're
infiltrative.
And so when the surgeon goes in,they can cut out most of the
(05:21):
tumor that they see, at least onthe MRI, but we know that they
can never really get the wholetumor.
And so typically in six, 12months, you know, sometimes
longer in some patients, thetumor will re reoccur because
there's still some tumor cellsthat are infiltrated in the
brain, uh, that the surgeonisn't able to resect.
(05:41):
and because of that.
You know, in these cells thatare in kind of infiltrated, in
the normal brain, they'reprotected by something called
the blood-brain barrier.
And so the blood-brain barrier,uh, really restricts what can
get into the brain.
And so if you take somethinglike a drug, a therapeutic, uh,
and you give it to someone whohas one of these brain tumors.
(06:04):
Very little of the drug mayactually get to the tumor
because of the blood-brainbarrier, which is really just
protecting the brain, you know,from potentially toxic
substances and things that couldactually injure the brain.
But here, when you have a braintumor, these tumor cells can
actually kind of be hiddenbehind the blood-brain barrier.
And so when you give atherapeutic, it may not actually
get to those tumor cells.
Carrie (06:25):
Okay, so yeah, I know.
Little bit about the brain bloodbarrier.
'cause like I said, someone fromGray Matters came on and he, his
wife had that issue.
What it, the sur the treatmentsthat she got, I mean, was.
A long time ago, but yeah.
Um, and she's actually stillalive.
She's doing well.
Um, but it's interesting, someof the treatments that she got
(06:45):
were like new at the time andthey were like, just do it and
let's use it as research.
And so I don't remember what itis.
You could go back to one of ourpodcasts and listen to it, but,
um, so, um, let's talk I guessthen a little bit about this new
treatment technique.
'cause.
Like, I mean, first of all,let's go back to ultrasound
'cause that's very interestingto me.
(07:06):
'cause Yeah.
You know, when you thinkultrasound, you think, first
off, you think babies gonnaultrasound a baby?
I, I'm, I'm still trying to getthe concept of how an ultrasound
delivers medicine, I guess.
'cause you know, that's unique.
Michael (07:22):
Yeah.
So I mean, ultrasound can do alot of things and so, uh, you
know, we use it for imagingthat's, that's modality
obviously that's been studiedfor, for decades and decades and
decades.
But the therapeutic uses havealso been studied for a long
time.
Um, you can imagine, I mean, ifyou just turn up the power on
your ultrasound system, you mayactually, you can actually heat
the tissue'cause you actuallyget enough energy in there.
(07:43):
You wanna avoid that when you'redoing imaging, but if you're
doing a therapy, you mayactually want to heat the tissue
and kill it.
So.
that's a therapeutic mechanismthat you can use with
ultrasound.
here with, uh, drug delivery,uh, what we do is we actually
couple the ultrasound with amicrobubble.
And so when we do our therapy,uh, and our therapy is an
(08:03):
ultrasound implant that getsplaced, uh, you know, replacing
the skull bone when a patientgets a tumor resection, we were
talking about surgeon goes inand cuts out the tumor and
places this ultrasound implant.
When they get the systemactivated though, when they get
a normal chemo or their drugtherapy that might follow the
surgery, uh, the patient gets,uh, the device activated at the
(08:25):
same time as they get amicrobubble, uh, agent that gets
administered.
So you can think of like abubble that's actually going
through, uh, your blood vesselsand these bubbles can actually
respond to the ultrasound andvibrate in response to the
ultrasound.
Actually this mechanical kind ofinteraction between this bubble
and the vessel wall is what canactually disrupt the blood brain
(08:46):
barrier.
And so we use this kind of asynergy between the ultrasound
and these microbubbles thatwe're giving to disrupt the
blood brain barrier.
Carrie (08:54):
Okay.
That's, yeah, that's, um, okay.
And so how new is thistreatment?
I mean, are y'all still in thestudy phase or?
Michael (09:06):
So it's, it's, it's interesting question because,
um, they've been looking at thiskind of technology, uh, for over
20 years, about 25 years.
First paper came out in 2001 bythis researcher named CLA Henin.
Uh, that was really a pioneer inthe field.
And since then, uh, there's beena lot of engineering
developments to bring it tohuman patients.
(09:26):
And one of the big issues inbringing this kind of therapy,
uh, to the brain is actually theskull bone.
So when you have the skull andyou try to give ultrasound, that
will actually absorb most of theultrasound energy.
And so you have some issues inapplying ultrasound in a safe
way to the brain, uh, when, whenyou try to use it for something
like this.
(09:47):
Um, so there's a lot ofcompanies working on overcoming
that and sending ultrasoundthrough the skull safely.
Our company is a little bitdifferent in that it was founded
by a neurosurgeon who said, I'mgonna have this neurosurgical
procedure, and at the end of theprocedure I'm just gonna place
an ultrasound device in the bonewindow that I've already opened
for the surgery.
so we place the ultrasounddevice at the end of this and
(10:12):
then we can use it during each,uh, drug drug session.
When basically a patient comesin for a chemotherapy, they can
get the blood-brain barrier.
Uh, disrupted at the same timeas they get a normal, uh, drug
therapy.
Carrie (10:24):
Okay.
Interesting.
And so thinking about that makesme wonder, I mean, is this a
viable option for everyone thathas this type of brain tumor, or
is there some that maybe don'tqualify?
Michael (10:40):
So going back, yeah, sorry I didn't respond to your
full question, but going backto, to the human clinical trials
as, um, they started, you know,the, some of this research in
the early two thousands, we, we,we, and, and some others treated
the first patients around 2014.
That with this, this was thefirst human trials, uh, with our
system.
And since then, uh, we've run abunch of phase one two trials
(11:03):
and we've recently initiated aphase three trial.
So this is still aninvestigational, uh, device for
treating, uh, glioblastoma.
And we're in a phase threeclinical trial in the US and,
and Europe that we hope tofinish recruitment in, uh, by
the end of next year.
the patients that we'retreating, you're asking about
specific patient populations.
Right now in our phase threetrial, we're treating patients
(11:26):
that have had recurrence oftheir tumor.
So they've already had thisinitial surgery and, uh, initial
chemotherapy, and they've had arecurrence.
So the tumor has regrown andthen they can come on our trial.
But we're actually looking atusing our system.
in all kinds of patients, inpatients who are just diagnosed
with the disease and in patientswho recur, uh, and, and, and
looking at different therapiesthat can be coupled in those
(11:48):
different stages of the disease.
Carrie (11:50):
Okay, so you are still in the trial testing phases of
everything.
Okay.
And I mean, it sounds silly, butI guess your pre preliminary
results are looking fairly well,fairly good.
I dunno the proper way to saythat.
Michael (12:05):
So we published two papers the last couple years
from some phase two trials thatwe did.
Um, with different drugtherapies.
And so, uh, the, the drug thatwe're advancing with right now
in our phase three is a drugcalled carboplatin, which is an
older, uh, chemotherapy drugthat doesn't really cross the
blood-brain barrier well, butthat has shown some efficacy in
glioblastoma.
(12:26):
And so we really think if we canimprove the penetration of this
drug, we can really increase theefficacy, uh, of the drug.
And so we published this articlein Nature Communications.
last year, uh, that showed ourphase two results, uh, showing,
you know, an improved survivalin, in a small cohort of
patients who had received thistherapy.
And that's what led us toinitiate this phase three trial.
Carrie (12:49):
Okay.
And I mean, I'm imagining.
I mean, the brain's not thatbig.
Everything up there is not thatbig.
So I'm assuming this implantthat you put in is teeny tiny.
I mean, how, I mean, I don'tknow.
I'm just like, we occasionallywatch, but we just watched a
(13:11):
documentary and I don't rememberthe neurosurgeon neurosurgeon's
name, but there's a newneurosurgeon documentary on net
Netflix that we just watched, abrain tumor removal.
Interesting.
I'm trying not to make my facesthat I made when I watched the
video, but, um, you know, Ithink about implants and I
(13:32):
always, you know, wonder like,how big is that?
And do you, what are the risks,I guess, involved with
implanting something into thebrain?
I mean, I know there's otherthings that get implanted into
the brain.
I know it's not crazy to thinkabout.
It is to me, but.
Michael (13:49):
Yeah, I mean, I actually think it's gonna be
more and more common.
I think we see this, you know,companies like Neuralink and
different brain computerinterface companies.
You know, in my opinion, I thinkbrain implants probably become a
lot more common as, as weadvance, you know, across
different indications, maybeeven things like stroke, which
you mentioned.
Uh, but yeah, in, in terms ofour implant.
(14:11):
Uh, you know, we have thisdevice which is about six by six
centimeters, and so it's reallysized to fit, uh, you know, a
normalized bone flap a surgeonwould open up anyways, you know,
to access the brain
Carrie (14:25):
Okay.
Interesting.
So, and can you feel it on yourhead when you touch it?
All right.
Goes under the bone.
Michael (14:35):
Um, yeah, so you talked about the side effects.
I mean, you know, any braintumor surgery has some risk of
infection.
We haven't necessarily seen ahigher risk of infection, uh,
from placing our device versusjust putting back, uh, the other
bone flap.
But obviously this is somethingthat we're, we're indeed looking
at in our phase three trial.
Uh, whether there are any other.
Risk.
(14:55):
But so far, you know, we've seenvery minimal, uh, side effects
from placing this device.
Uh, a lot of patients have keptit for years, not had any issues
with it, and, and it really isnot directly in contact with the
brain.
So you still have thisprotective layer of the dur
matter, which is covering thebrain actually in this device
rests, um, you know, outside thedura matter.
(15:16):
So it's not directly in contact,uh, with the brain.
It's really just, uh, replacingthe skull bone that was there.
And then sitting on the duramatter.
And so, and the device that, youknow, we've, we've made is, is
made of this, um, uh, mesh.
And so this, this mesh issomething that a neurosurgeon
would typically use if they hadto fill in, you know, a bone
(15:37):
defect in a patient.
So they're very used to actuallyplacing this kind of device and
just under the mesh, um, we havethese ultrasound transducers
that are connected to it.
Carrie (15:47):
Okay, great.
I'm gonna take a quick littlebreak and just remind our
listeners that while you'relistening, and go ahead and
click that like button, clickthat share button, click that
notify button so that you canget all the other episodes that
we have going on.
And then now let's see if I canremember what I was gonna ask
after that.
Um, oh, and so that device whereit's sitting is not.
(16:09):
It's on the outside of theblood-brain barrier, but near
the blood-brain barrier.
Would that be correct?
Am I getting.
Michael (16:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you're getting at something.
So ultrasound has a pretty goodpenetration, and so the, the
frequency that we're using is aone megahertz.
And so at this frequency, um, weget disruption in the blood
brainin barrier up to about sixor seven centimeters.
I.
So ultrasound can penetratepretty deeply, you know, way you
(16:40):
don't necessarily need theultrasound, like you said, just
sitting right on the bloodvessel to disrupt it.
Yeah.
It's one of the advantages ofultrasound versus, you know,
some other modalities of energyis that you can actually have it
at, at quite a, quite a distanceand still have a, a therapeutic
effect in this case.
Carrie (16:57):
And I'm not gonna just guess at what you're hoping to
achieve through this work.
I want you to let me, like, likewhat's the ultimate goal?
What's the, maybe short termversus long term?
What, how, what's the, what areyou looking to achieve?
Michael (17:16):
Yeah, so this trial is a, is a phase three clinical
trial that we're running rightnow.
The goal of a phase three trialis really to, we're randomizing
patients, and so patients getrandomized against the standard
of care that they would normallyget if they weren't in a
clinical trial.
And then they, some pa, youknow, half the patients get
randomized into getting ourdevice in combination with this,
(17:38):
um, carboplatin chemotherapy,which is what we're using.
And the ultimate goal of thisphase three trial is to show
that we can extend survival forpatients that are getting our
device.
And so, you know, this initialtrial, if we can significantly
improve survival outcomes forthese patients with recurrent
glioblastoma, I think that's afirst step.
And that would show technologyof disrupting the blood-brain
(18:01):
barrier, increasing drugconcentrations, uh, really has
an effect on the tumor growth.
And, and, and, you know, slowsdown the tumor growth and maybe
stops it in patients, uh, toextend survival.
after that, that's really afirst step and we're looking at
a lot of different therapiesthat could be coupled with the
device.
And so.
(18:22):
Carboplatin that we're usingright now is really just a first
step.
we're also looking at thingslike immunotherapies.
We're looking at other drugsthat could be used.
And so eventually what I couldimagine is a patient may get
diagnosed with the disease, theymay get the implant right up
front when they get diagnosedwith the disease, and then we
may eventually be able to followthem as they get different
rounds of differenttherapeutics.
(18:44):
Uh, so that, you know, all thesedrugs could actually be
increased in the brain, uh, bydisrupting the blood brain
barrier.
I.
Carrie (18:51):
Okay, cool.
Um, I'm trying to think if Ihave any more questions about
that.
It's, the brain is so amazing tome what it can and what it does
and how it can rejuvenate itselfand all the crazy things.
Um, so what would you say is oneof the most rewarding things
(19:11):
about your job?
Michael (19:16):
Uh, you know, I think getting, being able to do
something that has an impact,uh, this is.
A disease that really has a highunmet need.
There's been a lot of failedclinical trials over the past
several decades.
you know, and we're not justdeveloping something that's kind
of like a small improvement, Ithink on, on some medical
technology that exists already.
(19:36):
This is actually kind of a new,brand new field, uh, still I
think has a huge potential, notjust in glioblastoma, but it.
Other diseases as well thatwe're looking at.
So, you know, this group'slooking at Alzheimer's, I think
Parkinson's, uh, a ALS.
And so, you know, thetherapeutic potential is much
even beyond this indication.
(19:57):
Okay.
Carrie (19:58):
Okay.
Yeah, that was gonna be one ofmy other questions.
Do you see this being used inother areas?
And so, yeah, it sounds likehopefully that will lead to more
trials and other needs and gofrom there.
So.
Michael (20:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
In fact, yeah, I mean, you know,everyone working in the brain
area treating no matter whatbrain disease is struggling with
this because you can try toengineer drugs that cross the
blood-brain barrier.
Um, you can try to use small.
Basically very small size drugssometimes cross, but you know,
if you just limit yourself tothese things, you really, you
(20:33):
know, have a very small tooltoolbox of things that you can
use against these braindiseases.
And so once you can expand that,you open up a lot more
possibilities in terms of what'spossible.
I.
On.
Carrie (20:43):
Okay, and now I'm gonna ask a more generic question.
That's kind of a question thatI, again, I'm relating back to
us as brain injuries now, and Iknow I've asked this question.
I know the answer, but just incase we got new listeners.
So just because you have braincancer and you have a tumor
(21:03):
removed or partially removed,and you're going through this
treatment, that does notnecessarily mean you have a
brain injury.
I mean, it could lead to a braininjury, but not everybody that
has a brain tumor and has abrain tumor removal ends up in
the brain injury camp.
(21:23):
Does that make sense, what I'mtrying to say?
Michael (21:26):
No, you're exactly right.
I mean, so, so usually, youknow, a surgeon when they go in
and they do surgery, you know,their goal is to resect as much
as possible without causing anyharm to the patient.
So you don't wanna affect a
Carrie (21:39):
Right.
Michael (21:40):
quality of life.
And so, you know, I was just ata surgery last week, for
example, it was an awakecraniotomy, so they'll actually.
Do brain surgery when a patientis awake and they'll test
functional regions while thesurgeon is, know, measuring to
see, really make sure thatthey're not gonna have any
functional impairments in thepatients.
And that's pretty common forthese kinds of surgeries that a
(22:02):
surgeon would do that.
you know, that being said, thereare cases where a patient does
wake up and the surgeon.
Potentially has touchedsomething that they shouldn't
have or, or there are sometimesside effects that happen.
But, um, you know, for the goodsurgeons who are, who are being
careful, I, I, I think, I don'tknow what the percentage is
exactly for it to, you know, uh,this, these kinds of patients.
(22:25):
But generally, I mean, we seethe patients after surgery and
they're doing, they're doingwell.
Carrie (22:29):
Yeah, that's interesting because the, the.
Documentary I was telling youabout that the guy was awake for
that and that was just crazy.
You know, he's like, okay, tellme if these musics are
different.
And so like, yeah, they wereasking him questions all
throughout and having him dodifferent things.
So, but yeah.
Um, and then just again, andwhat is one thing that maybe you
(22:50):
would like our listeners to knowabout?
I dunno.
Brain cancer in general are gglgeo, is it glioblastoma or gpls?
Stoma.
I think I'm saying it wrong,
Michael (23:03):
Glio Glio.
Carrie (23:04):
glio.
Okay.
Um, what is like one major thingthat you would like listeners to
know?
Like maybe they don't know, likewhat could they find out about?
They don't know they have it,but then.
It shows up.
'cause I assume that's kind ofwhat happens, right?
You don't always know you havebrain cancer.
Michael (23:28):
Yeah, I mean these, these kinds of tumors show up.
I mean, the, the age demographictends to be from.
30 to, you know, 70, 80.
I mean, they, they, they show upacross all ages.
Um, and so I think, I think, uh,most people seem to know
someone, even though it's apretty rare tumor, most people
(23:51):
have somehow encountered this,you know, some, uh, know someone
or, or a friend of a friend orsomething that has had a
glioblastoma.
Uh, every time we mention it,um.
But getting back, let's see.
Your question was, uh,
Carrie (24:04):
Like what?
Michael (24:05):
things,
Carrie (24:05):
Something that you wanna make sure that people, just the
general public, that maybe don'treally understand something that
you want them to know about likehow to.
To find it or be prepared orreact or, you know what I mean?
Like I, we know there's strokesigns to look out for.
We know there's signs for heartattacks.
(24:26):
Is there something that maybe.
Michael (24:30):
un unfortunately, I think for a tumor like this,
there's very little, uh, mostpatients may have a seizure.
Or, uh, you know, headaches orsomething.
They typically have aneurological symptom that's
basically caused by the tumorgrowing.
that triggers them going to thehospital and getting an MRI, uh,
to, to, to where they actuallylearn that they have this, this
(24:52):
tumor.
they typically also need to do.
You know, a biopsy, they can bepretty sure, but, but until they
go in and, and actually take outthe tissue, they're not always
certain that a patient actuallyhas actually this kind of, uh,
glioblastoma because there arebrain tumors that are less
aggressive, uh, that that can,that can form and, and look
(25:14):
similar.
So that's also possible.
Carrie (25:16):
Okay.
Well Michael, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
Uh, this is also interesting andmaybe let's circle back around.
Next year after you're done withthe trials and let's see where
you are and get an update fromyou, that would be pretty
exciting.
So, but we wanna thank you.
Thank you again for being here.
Michael (25:36):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having meon.
And, you know, if any patientswanna learn more about this
trial, uh, we do have a website,it's Sono bird.eu is the website
for the trial.
And we're, the name of thecompany is Carthera, so
Carthera.eu is the company ifthey wanna
Carrie (25:50):
Okay.
And we'll, we'll make sure thatwe spell it correctly in our
description.
And, um, links don't really workin Instagram, but if you have an
Instagram.
Um, if you'll send that emailthat to me, then we'll make sure
we tag you on our Instagramstory so that people think and
find you that way.
Um, but yeah, we'll, we'll getthat figured out.
We'll make sure we get people toyou.
(26:10):
And then again, I wanna thankall of our listeners for
listening.
Again, if you wanna contact us,I know you get tired of hearing
it, but our email isbindwaves@thebind.org.
I almost said.com.
And you can follow us onInstagram at.
symbol@bindwaves, and ourwebsite, thebind.org/bindwaves.
(26:31):
So don't forget again to clickthe like button, the share
button to notify that if youwanna watch us on YouTube.
But we can find us on all yourfavorite platforms.
So wherever you listen topodcasts is where you'll find us
and just keep listening andwe'll see you next time.
Until, until then, have a greatday.
Cohosts (26:48):
We hope you've enjoyed listening to BIND Waves and
continue to support BIND in ournonprofit mission.
We support brain injurysurvivors as they reconnect into
the life, the community, andtheir workplace, and we couldn't
do that without great listenerslike you.
We appreciate each and every oneof you.
Continue watching.
Until next time.
Until next time.
Opinions shared by the guests ofthe show are their own and do
not necessarily represent theviews of the hosts bindwaves or
the Brain Injury Network.
This podcast is forinformational purposes only, and
it's not a substitute forprofessional medical advice, the
diagnosis or treatment.
Always seek the advice of ahealthcare provider with any
(00:32):
questions you may have regardinga medical condition.
Thank you.
Carrie (00:39):
Hi, I'm Carrie, a stroke survivor and a member of BIND,
and today we're gonna welcomeDr.
Michael Canney.
He is the Chief ScientificOfficer at Carthera.
I dunno if I said that right.
He'll correct me in a minute.
A med tech company drivinginnovative advances in brain
cancer treatment.
His work fo focuses ondeveloping new therapies for.
(01:00):
Glioblastoma neuro-oncology andneuro-degenerative diseases with
over 50 peer reviewed pupublications and a strong
commitment to academiccollaboration.
Michael brings a valuableperspective on improving patient
output.
So I know I just said all thatto introduce you, but how about
in your own words, you kind oftell us a little about you
(01:22):
better and maybe say all thewords correctly.
Michael (01:26):
Yeah, we can start again.
Yeah, so the name of the companyis Carthera Carthera.
Um, and we're a French med techcompany, uh, with some US
presence.
Obviously I'm based here inDenver, Colorado.
Um, and we're developing, uh, anultrasound system for delivering
drugs to the brain.
we'll talk a little bit moreabout today.
I.
Carrie (01:46):
Okay.
Sounds exciting.
Okay, so, um, just to getstarted, so what made you decide
to.
Get into the brain world, oreven maybe more specifically
brain cancer research.
That's kind of a unique field inmy opinion.
I don't know, maybe not.
Michael (02:08):
It is.
Yeah, I ca I came about it a alittle bit through, through a
different route, which is thatI, I did my research, um, as
part of my doc.
In therapeutic ultrasound, whichis using, you know, ultrasound
in new ways, not just forimaging, um, but for, for
therapy.
And that can be, uh, a lot ofdifferent things are being
explored with ultrasound, uh,from using it as a replacement
(02:30):
for surgery for actuallydestroying tissue, uh, to drug
delivery, which we're gonna talkabout today.
And, and drug delivery issomething that's been explored
at least for the brain usingultrasound for about 20 years.
I got involved in a project, uh,while I was doing a postdoc in
France with a Frenchneurosurgeon, NA, named
Alexander Pontier, who had theidea for the system.
(02:52):
Uh, uh, this ultrasound systemthat we've developed, which is
an ultrasound implant that's,that's placed to help, uh, help
with drug delivery for, forthings like brain cancer.
Carrie (03:03):
Interesting.
Okay, now let's, I mean, that's,when we say brain cancer, I know
most people just think verygeneric brain cancer.
So for myself and for thelisteners, I mean, I know a lot
I.
Not a lot.
I know a little bit about a lotof things, especially when it
comes to the brain, you know,being brain injured myself.
But, um, so like how manydifferent types of brain cancer
(03:27):
are there?
Because I mean, I know you'refocusing mainly on glioblastoma.
I never say it right, but, um.
Michael (03:34):
Yeah, we're, we're focused on, you know, these
types of primary brain tumors.
You, you can divide up braintumors into primary and then
secondary brain tumors, whichwould be a brain tumor.
Say like you have breast cancerand you have metastasis that
goes to the brain.
that would be a, you know, asecondary, uh, a brain tumor.
But we're really focused onthese primary brain tumors
called glioblastoma.
(03:54):
and here in the US they affect,you know, around 10,000 people a
year.
and it's a very aggressive.
Tumor.
It's the most aggressive, uh,uh, brain tumor in that, you
know, there's very few treatmentoptions and, and once a patient
gets a glioblastoma, theirsurvival is, is fairly short.
It's, it's on the order of oneor two years.
Carrie (04:14):
Yeah.
So, okay.
That, so I know, um, we partnerwith a group here in North Texas
area called Gray Matters.
They are a gray, or they are abrain cancer support group.
So we kind of collaborate withthem to do stuff.
You know, we're all differentkinds of brain injury survivors
here, but we do have some withtumors and some cancer.
(04:36):
And then, you know, the typicalstroke and traumatic brain
injury, all kinds of randomthings.
Um, so I mean, are therespecific factors that make.
Brain cancer so deadly.
I mean, what, why is it, Iguess, you know, do we know why
it's what it is?
(04:56):
Or.
Michael (04:58):
Yeah, there's a lot of reasons that, uh, we, we, we
think, but we can just startwith the basics.
So if you, if you get aglioblastoma, the first thing
they'll typically do is surgery.
Um, so a neurosurgeon will go inand they'll, they'll try to cut
out the tumor just like theywould with a different kind of
cancer.
I.
The problem with glioblastomasis typically is that they're
infiltrative.
And so when the surgeon goes in,they can cut out most of the
(05:21):
tumor that they see, at least onthe MRI, but we know that they
can never really get the wholetumor.
And so typically in six, 12months, you know, sometimes
longer in some patients, thetumor will re reoccur because
there's still some tumor cellsthat are infiltrated in the
brain, uh, that the surgeonisn't able to resect.
(05:41):
and because of that.
You know, in these cells thatare in kind of infiltrated, in
the normal brain, they'reprotected by something called
the blood-brain barrier.
And so the blood-brain barrier,uh, really restricts what can
get into the brain.
And so if you take somethinglike a drug, a therapeutic, uh,
and you give it to someone whohas one of these brain tumors.
(06:04):
Very little of the drug mayactually get to the tumor
because of the blood-brainbarrier, which is really just
protecting the brain, you know,from potentially toxic
substances and things that couldactually injure the brain.
But here, when you have a braintumor, these tumor cells can
actually kind of be hiddenbehind the blood-brain barrier.
And so when you give atherapeutic, it may not actually
get to those tumor cells.
Carrie (06:25):
Okay, so yeah, I know.
Little bit about the brain bloodbarrier.
'cause like I said, someone fromGray Matters came on and he, his
wife had that issue.
What it, the sur the treatmentsthat she got, I mean, was.
A long time ago, but yeah.
Um, and she's actually stillalive.
She's doing well.
Um, but it's interesting, someof the treatments that she got
(06:45):
were like new at the time andthey were like, just do it and
let's use it as research.
And so I don't remember what itis.
You could go back to one of ourpodcasts and listen to it, but,
um, so, um, let's talk I guessthen a little bit about this new
treatment technique.
'cause.
Like, I mean, first of all,let's go back to ultrasound
'cause that's very interestingto me.
(07:06):
'cause Yeah.
You know, when you thinkultrasound, you think, first
off, you think babies gonnaultrasound a baby?
I, I'm, I'm still trying to getthe concept of how an ultrasound
delivers medicine, I guess.
'cause you know, that's unique.
Michael (07:22):
Yeah.
So I mean, ultrasound can do alot of things and so, uh, you
know, we use it for imagingthat's, that's modality
obviously that's been studiedfor, for decades and decades and
decades.
But the therapeutic uses havealso been studied for a long
time.
Um, you can imagine, I mean, ifyou just turn up the power on
your ultrasound system, you mayactually, you can actually heat
the tissue'cause you actuallyget enough energy in there.
(07:43):
You wanna avoid that when you'redoing imaging, but if you're
doing a therapy, you mayactually want to heat the tissue
and kill it.
So.
that's a therapeutic mechanismthat you can use with
ultrasound.
here with, uh, drug delivery,uh, what we do is we actually
couple the ultrasound with amicrobubble.
And so when we do our therapy,uh, and our therapy is an
(08:03):
ultrasound implant that getsplaced, uh, you know, replacing
the skull bone when a patientgets a tumor resection, we were
talking about surgeon goes inand cuts out the tumor and
places this ultrasound implant.
When they get the systemactivated though, when they get
a normal chemo or their drugtherapy that might follow the
surgery, uh, the patient gets,uh, the device activated at the
(08:25):
same time as they get amicrobubble, uh, agent that gets
administered.
So you can think of like abubble that's actually going
through, uh, your blood vesselsand these bubbles can actually
respond to the ultrasound andvibrate in response to the
ultrasound.
Actually this mechanical kind ofinteraction between this bubble
and the vessel wall is what canactually disrupt the blood brain
(08:46):
barrier.
And so we use this kind of asynergy between the ultrasound
and these microbubbles thatwe're giving to disrupt the
blood brain barrier.
Carrie (08:54):
Okay.
That's, yeah, that's, um, okay.
And so how new is thistreatment?
I mean, are y'all still in thestudy phase or?
Michael (09:06):
So it's, it's, it's interesting question because,
um, they've been looking at thiskind of technology, uh, for over
20 years, about 25 years.
First paper came out in 2001 bythis researcher named CLA Henin.
Uh, that was really a pioneer inthe field.
And since then, uh, there's beena lot of engineering
developments to bring it tohuman patients.
(09:26):
And one of the big issues inbringing this kind of therapy,
uh, to the brain is actually theskull bone.
So when you have the skull andyou try to give ultrasound, that
will actually absorb most of theultrasound energy.
And so you have some issues inapplying ultrasound in a safe
way to the brain, uh, when, whenyou try to use it for something
like this.
(09:47):
Um, so there's a lot ofcompanies working on overcoming
that and sending ultrasoundthrough the skull safely.
Our company is a little bitdifferent in that it was founded
by a neurosurgeon who said, I'mgonna have this neurosurgical
procedure, and at the end of theprocedure I'm just gonna place
an ultrasound device in the bonewindow that I've already opened
for the surgery.
so we place the ultrasounddevice at the end of this and
(10:12):
then we can use it during each,uh, drug drug session.
When basically a patient comesin for a chemotherapy, they can
get the blood-brain barrier.
Uh, disrupted at the same timeas they get a normal, uh, drug
therapy.
Carrie (10:24):
Okay.
Interesting.
And so thinking about that makesme wonder, I mean, is this a
viable option for everyone thathas this type of brain tumor, or
is there some that maybe don'tqualify?
Michael (10:40):
So going back, yeah, sorry I didn't respond to your
full question, but going backto, to the human clinical trials
as, um, they started, you know,the, some of this research in
the early two thousands, we, we,we, and, and some others treated
the first patients around 2014.
That with this, this was thefirst human trials, uh, with our
system.
And since then, uh, we've run abunch of phase one two trials
(11:03):
and we've recently initiated aphase three trial.
So this is still aninvestigational, uh, device for
treating, uh, glioblastoma.
And we're in a phase threeclinical trial in the US and,
and Europe that we hope tofinish recruitment in, uh, by
the end of next year.
the patients that we'retreating, you're asking about
specific patient populations.
Right now in our phase threetrial, we're treating patients
(11:26):
that have had recurrence oftheir tumor.
So they've already had thisinitial surgery and, uh, initial
chemotherapy, and they've had arecurrence.
So the tumor has regrown andthen they can come on our trial.
But we're actually looking atusing our system.
in all kinds of patients, inpatients who are just diagnosed
with the disease and in patientswho recur, uh, and, and, and
looking at different therapiesthat can be coupled in those
(11:48):
different stages of the disease.
Carrie (11:50):
Okay, so you are still in the trial testing phases of
everything.
Okay.
And I mean, it sounds silly, butI guess your pre preliminary
results are looking fairly well,fairly good.
I dunno the proper way to saythat.
Michael (12:05):
So we published two papers the last couple years
from some phase two trials thatwe did.
Um, with different drugtherapies.
And so, uh, the, the drug thatwe're advancing with right now
in our phase three is a drugcalled carboplatin, which is an
older, uh, chemotherapy drugthat doesn't really cross the
blood-brain barrier well, butthat has shown some efficacy in
glioblastoma.
(12:26):
And so we really think if we canimprove the penetration of this
drug, we can really increase theefficacy, uh, of the drug.
And so we published this articlein Nature Communications.
last year, uh, that showed ourphase two results, uh, showing,
you know, an improved survivalin, in a small cohort of
patients who had received thistherapy.
And that's what led us toinitiate this phase three trial.
Carrie (12:49):
Okay.
And I mean, I'm imagining.
I mean, the brain's not thatbig.
Everything up there is not thatbig.
So I'm assuming this implantthat you put in is teeny tiny.
I mean, how, I mean, I don'tknow.
I'm just like, we occasionallywatch, but we just watched a
(13:11):
documentary and I don't rememberthe neurosurgeon neurosurgeon's
name, but there's a newneurosurgeon documentary on net
Netflix that we just watched, abrain tumor removal.
Interesting.
I'm trying not to make my facesthat I made when I watched the
video, but, um, you know, Ithink about implants and I
(13:32):
always, you know, wonder like,how big is that?
And do you, what are the risks,I guess, involved with
implanting something into thebrain?
I mean, I know there's otherthings that get implanted into
the brain.
I know it's not crazy to thinkabout.
It is to me, but.
Michael (13:49):
Yeah, I mean, I actually think it's gonna be
more and more common.
I think we see this, you know,companies like Neuralink and
different brain computerinterface companies.
You know, in my opinion, I thinkbrain implants probably become a
lot more common as, as weadvance, you know, across
different indications, maybeeven things like stroke, which
you mentioned.
Uh, but yeah, in, in terms ofour implant.
(14:11):
Uh, you know, we have thisdevice which is about six by six
centimeters, and so it's reallysized to fit, uh, you know, a
normalized bone flap a surgeonwould open up anyways, you know,
to access the brain
Carrie (14:25):
Okay.
Interesting.
So, and can you feel it on yourhead when you touch it?
All right.
Goes under the bone.
Michael (14:35):
Um, yeah, so you talked about the side effects.
I mean, you know, any braintumor surgery has some risk of
infection.
We haven't necessarily seen ahigher risk of infection, uh,
from placing our device versusjust putting back, uh, the other
bone flap.
But obviously this is somethingthat we're, we're indeed looking
at in our phase three trial.
Uh, whether there are any other.
Risk.
(14:55):
But so far, you know, we've seenvery minimal, uh, side effects
from placing this device.
Uh, a lot of patients have keptit for years, not had any issues
with it, and, and it really isnot directly in contact with the
brain.
So you still have thisprotective layer of the dur
matter, which is covering thebrain actually in this device
rests, um, you know, outside thedura matter.
(15:16):
So it's not directly in contact,uh, with the brain.
It's really just, uh, replacingthe skull bone that was there.
And then sitting on the duramatter.
And so, and the device that, youknow, we've, we've made is, is
made of this, um, uh, mesh.
And so this, this mesh issomething that a neurosurgeon
would typically use if they hadto fill in, you know, a bone
(15:37):
defect in a patient.
So they're very used to actuallyplacing this kind of device and
just under the mesh, um, we havethese ultrasound transducers
that are connected to it.
Carrie (15:47):
Okay, great.
I'm gonna take a quick littlebreak and just remind our
listeners that while you'relistening, and go ahead and
click that like button, clickthat share button, click that
notify button so that you canget all the other episodes that
we have going on.
And then now let's see if I canremember what I was gonna ask
after that.
Um, oh, and so that device whereit's sitting is not.
(16:09):
It's on the outside of theblood-brain barrier, but near
the blood-brain barrier.
Would that be correct?
Am I getting.
Michael (16:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you're getting at something.
So ultrasound has a pretty goodpenetration, and so the, the
frequency that we're using is aone megahertz.
And so at this frequency, um, weget disruption in the blood
brainin barrier up to about sixor seven centimeters.
I.
So ultrasound can penetratepretty deeply, you know, way you
(16:40):
don't necessarily need theultrasound, like you said, just
sitting right on the bloodvessel to disrupt it.
Yeah.
It's one of the advantages ofultrasound versus, you know,
some other modalities of energyis that you can actually have it
at, at quite a, quite a distanceand still have a, a therapeutic
effect in this case.
Carrie (16:57):
And I'm not gonna just guess at what you're hoping to
achieve through this work.
I want you to let me, like, likewhat's the ultimate goal?
What's the, maybe short termversus long term?
What, how, what's the, what areyou looking to achieve?
Michael (17:16):
Yeah, so this trial is a, is a phase three clinical
trial that we're running rightnow.
The goal of a phase three trialis really to, we're randomizing
patients, and so patients getrandomized against the standard
of care that they would normallyget if they weren't in a
clinical trial.
And then they, some pa, youknow, half the patients get
randomized into getting ourdevice in combination with this,
(17:38):
um, carboplatin chemotherapy,which is what we're using.
And the ultimate goal of thisphase three trial is to show
that we can extend survival forpatients that are getting our
device.
And so, you know, this initialtrial, if we can significantly
improve survival outcomes forthese patients with recurrent
glioblastoma, I think that's afirst step.
And that would show technologyof disrupting the blood-brain
(18:01):
barrier, increasing drugconcentrations, uh, really has
an effect on the tumor growth.
And, and, and, you know, slowsdown the tumor growth and maybe
stops it in patients, uh, toextend survival.
after that, that's really afirst step and we're looking at
a lot of different therapiesthat could be coupled with the
device.
And so.
(18:22):
Carboplatin that we're usingright now is really just a first
step.
we're also looking at thingslike immunotherapies.
We're looking at other drugsthat could be used.
And so eventually what I couldimagine is a patient may get
diagnosed with the disease, theymay get the implant right up
front when they get diagnosedwith the disease, and then we
may eventually be able to followthem as they get different
rounds of differenttherapeutics.
(18:44):
Uh, so that, you know, all thesedrugs could actually be
increased in the brain, uh, bydisrupting the blood brain
barrier.
I.
Carrie (18:51):
Okay, cool.
Um, I'm trying to think if Ihave any more questions about
that.
It's, the brain is so amazing tome what it can and what it does
and how it can rejuvenate itselfand all the crazy things.
Um, so what would you say is oneof the most rewarding things
(19:11):
about your job?
Michael (19:16):
Uh, you know, I think getting, being able to do
something that has an impact,uh, this is.
A disease that really has a highunmet need.
There's been a lot of failedclinical trials over the past
several decades.
you know, and we're not justdeveloping something that's kind
of like a small improvement, Ithink on, on some medical
technology that exists already.
(19:36):
This is actually kind of a new,brand new field, uh, still I
think has a huge potential, notjust in glioblastoma, but it.
Other diseases as well thatwe're looking at.
So, you know, this group'slooking at Alzheimer's, I think
Parkinson's, uh, a ALS.
And so, you know, thetherapeutic potential is much
even beyond this indication.
(19:57):
Okay.
Carrie (19:58):
Okay.
Yeah, that was gonna be one ofmy other questions.
Do you see this being used inother areas?
And so, yeah, it sounds likehopefully that will lead to more
trials and other needs and gofrom there.
So.
Michael (20:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
In fact, yeah, I mean, you know,everyone working in the brain
area treating no matter whatbrain disease is struggling with
this because you can try toengineer drugs that cross the
blood-brain barrier.
Um, you can try to use small.
Basically very small size drugssometimes cross, but you know,
if you just limit yourself tothese things, you really, you
(20:33):
know, have a very small tooltoolbox of things that you can
use against these braindiseases.
And so once you can expand that,you open up a lot more
possibilities in terms of what'spossible.
I.
On.
Carrie (20:43):
Okay, and now I'm gonna ask a more generic question.
That's kind of a question thatI, again, I'm relating back to
us as brain injuries now, and Iknow I've asked this question.
I know the answer, but just incase we got new listeners.
So just because you have braincancer and you have a tumor
(21:03):
removed or partially removed,and you're going through this
treatment, that does notnecessarily mean you have a
brain injury.
I mean, it could lead to a braininjury, but not everybody that
has a brain tumor and has abrain tumor removal ends up in
the brain injury camp.
(21:23):
Does that make sense, what I'mtrying to say?
Michael (21:26):
No, you're exactly right.
I mean, so, so usually, youknow, a surgeon when they go in
and they do surgery, you know,their goal is to resect as much
as possible without causing anyharm to the patient.
So you don't wanna affect a
Carrie (21:39):
Right.
Michael (21:40):
quality of life.
And so, you know, I was just ata surgery last week, for
example, it was an awakecraniotomy, so they'll actually.
Do brain surgery when a patientis awake and they'll test
functional regions while thesurgeon is, know, measuring to
see, really make sure thatthey're not gonna have any
functional impairments in thepatients.
And that's pretty common forthese kinds of surgeries that a
(22:02):
surgeon would do that.
you know, that being said, thereare cases where a patient does
wake up and the surgeon.
Potentially has touchedsomething that they shouldn't
have or, or there are sometimesside effects that happen.
But, um, you know, for the goodsurgeons who are, who are being
careful, I, I, I think, I don'tknow what the percentage is
exactly for it to, you know, uh,this, these kinds of patients.
(22:25):
But generally, I mean, we seethe patients after surgery and
they're doing, they're doingwell.
Carrie (22:29):
Yeah, that's interesting because the, the.
Documentary I was telling youabout that the guy was awake for
that and that was just crazy.
You know, he's like, okay, tellme if these musics are
different.
And so like, yeah, they wereasking him questions all
throughout and having him dodifferent things.
So, but yeah.
Um, and then just again, andwhat is one thing that maybe you
(22:50):
would like our listeners to knowabout?
I dunno.
Brain cancer in general are gglgeo, is it glioblastoma or gpls?
Stoma.
I think I'm saying it wrong,
Michael (23:03):
Glio Glio.
Carrie (23:04):
glio.
Okay.
Um, what is like one major thingthat you would like listeners to
know?
Like maybe they don't know, likewhat could they find out about?
They don't know they have it,but then.
It shows up.
'cause I assume that's kind ofwhat happens, right?
You don't always know you havebrain cancer.
Michael (23:28):
Yeah, I mean these, these kinds of tumors show up.
I mean, the, the age demographictends to be from.
30 to, you know, 70, 80.
I mean, they, they, they show upacross all ages.
Um, and so I think, I think, uh,most people seem to know
someone, even though it's apretty rare tumor, most people
(23:51):
have somehow encountered this,you know, some, uh, know someone
or, or a friend of a friend orsomething that has had a
glioblastoma.
Uh, every time we mention it,um.
But getting back, let's see.
Your question was, uh,
Carrie (24:04):
Like what?
Michael (24:05):
things,
Carrie (24:05):
Something that you wanna make sure that people, just the
general public, that maybe don'treally understand something that
you want them to know about likehow to.
To find it or be prepared orreact or, you know what I mean?
Like I, we know there's strokesigns to look out for.
We know there's signs for heartattacks.
(24:26):
Is there something that maybe.
Michael (24:30):
un unfortunately, I think for a tumor like this,
there's very little, uh, mostpatients may have a seizure.
Or, uh, you know, headaches orsomething.
They typically have aneurological symptom that's
basically caused by the tumorgrowing.
that triggers them going to thehospital and getting an MRI, uh,
to, to, to where they actuallylearn that they have this, this
(24:52):
tumor.
they typically also need to do.
You know, a biopsy, they can bepretty sure, but, but until they
go in and, and actually take outthe tissue, they're not always
certain that a patient actuallyhas actually this kind of, uh,
glioblastoma because there arebrain tumors that are less
aggressive, uh, that that can,that can form and, and look
(25:14):
similar.
So that's also possible.
Carrie (25:16):
Okay.
Well Michael, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
Uh, this is also interesting andmaybe let's circle back around.
Next year after you're done withthe trials and let's see where
you are and get an update fromyou, that would be pretty
exciting.
So, but we wanna thank you.
Thank you again for being here.
Michael (25:36):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having meon.
And, you know, if any patientswanna learn more about this
trial, uh, we do have a website,it's Sono bird.eu is the website
for the trial.
And we're, the name of thecompany is Carthera, so
Carthera.eu is the company ifthey wanna
Carrie (25:50):
Okay.
And we'll, we'll make sure thatwe spell it correctly in our
description.
And, um, links don't really workin Instagram, but if you have an
Instagram.
Um, if you'll send that emailthat to me, then we'll make sure
we tag you on our Instagramstory so that people think and
find you that way.
Um, but yeah, we'll, we'll getthat figured out.
We'll make sure we get people toyou.
(26:10):
And then again, I wanna thankall of our listeners for
listening.
Again, if you wanna contact us,I know you get tired of hearing
it, but our email isbindwaves@thebind.org.
I almost said.com.
And you can follow us onInstagram at.
symbol@bindwaves, and ourwebsite, thebind.org/bindwaves.
(26:31):
So don't forget again to clickthe like button, the share
button to notify that if youwanna watch us on YouTube.
But we can find us on all yourfavorite platforms.
So wherever you listen topodcasts is where you'll find us
and just keep listening andwe'll see you next time.
Until, until then, have a greatday.
Cohosts (26:48):
We hope you've enjoyed listening to BIND Waves and
continue to support BIND in ournonprofit mission.
We support brain injurysurvivors as they reconnect into
the life, the community, andtheir workplace, and we couldn't
do that without great listenerslike you.
We appreciate each and every oneof you.
Continue watching.
Until next time.
Until next time.
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