Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Thank you.
(00:30):
All right, good morning, everybody.
Maybe my music was fading, so sorry about that.
But trying some new things this morning and appreciate your patience.
Some people just don't like the mad beats in the morning.
(00:50):
So, yeah, any feedback, welcome.
And, yeah, welcome, everybody, to Bitcoin Veteran Spaces number 245.
where we talk about Bitcoin.
My name is Bob Van Kirk. I'll be your host this morning.
I am joined on stage so far by Neil and BFP.
(01:10):
Good morning, gentlemen.
Today is Monday, August 18th, 2025.
Let's take a look at the time chain today.
We are at Bitcoin block height number 900, 10,487, working on about a...
Is this right? A 20-hour block? Is that correct?
Man, crazy.
(01:31):
If that's correct, no, that's not right.
Sorry, my screen hadn't updated.
We're at 910,620.
Wow, had that way off.
With the Bitcoin price sitting at 115,000 US dollars,
which means you can still pick up around 870 sats for your dollars.
(01:54):
All right, a couple of announcements this morning before we get started.
Bitcoin Veterans is having their second annual summit on November 10th and 11th in Nashville in coordination with Bitcoin Park.
Day one is going to be the conference.
You won't want to miss it.
And day two, you probably won't want to miss that either.
We have range day.
So you'll be able to fire some firearms.
(02:15):
And looking to get people involved, go to BitcoinVeterans.org forward slash summit 2025 to get involved.
We need speakers, panel topics, and volunteers.
If you're interested, we would love to have you come as an attendee as well.
So again, bitcoinveterans.org for slash 2025.
(02:38):
Also, speaker announcement for this week.
We have Rod Rudy from Bitcoin Park.
Hope I'm saying his name right.
I have not met Rod personally, but excited to have him on.
So that should be an exciting discussion for this Wednesday.
And then the last announcement, because I know you guys just get so annoyed with all these announcements.
(02:58):
We are looking for a producer for the show.
So if you guys, anybody in the audience is interested, please DM me.
Would love to connect with you and see if it might be a good fit.
And also, if you're a speaker and you want to know the topics ahead of time, happy to add you to the Signal group.
Please do send me a DM about that as well.
(03:21):
Then lastly, for everybody in the audience, thank you for listening.
We'd love to have your participation.
So if you'd like to join in on the topics, please do hit that microphone button to come up on stage.
We'll be nice to you.
Maybe.
No, we will.
And if you can't because you're just listening and you want to participate,
(03:42):
please do drop your comments or your memes or snide remarks,
questions in that little purple pill in the bottom right.
And we'll try to get to that during the show.
We do keep this show hopefully an hour if we can,
but appreciate everybody being here.
And I think we lost BFP to the matrix.
(04:03):
So I want to say first, good morning, Neil.
How are you this morning, sir?
I'm doing real good.
And I've just been working on a presentation for a local Bitcoin meetup.
So that's been exciting to have something to focus on.
Nice.
(04:24):
Yeah, do you care to tell us about the presentation?
Is the topic relevant to Bitcoin, I would guess?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, it's just, uh, it's basically just kind of the book in an hour, the hot topics
and just a different way of thinking about it.
Um, condensing, compressing the signal.
(04:47):
Nice.
That's very good.
Uh, yeah.
I'll be interested to, uh, I don't know if you put that presentation, uh, in the back
channel.
Maybe we can get you to do that.
That'd be cool.
But I would encourage you guys check out Neil's book.
Good stuff.
a very interesting way that he comes about it.
And let's see, I think we're getting BFP to come back up here.
(05:12):
Maybe Texas toast as well.
Give me a second here, guys, while we rearrange the space here.
Get some folks up here.
Good morning, Texas toast.
How are you, sir?
Good morning.
I just accepted the co. Sorry I'm late. It's a Monday.
(05:38):
Did you get your coffee this morning?
I got it, but it's empty, man. I got a new schedule and I'm running low on coffee. I need to refill.
All right. Well, today's topic is broke or broken. Depends on which way you guys want to take it.
But my question is, there's a lot of chatter here on X and other places about Bitcoin being broken or broke.
(06:09):
The ongoing battle between Bitcoin Core and NOTs, we could take it there.
Some people are saying the ETFs and Bitcoin treasury companies buying up all the freedom money is breaking Bitcoin.
And then we could also cover today if you're broke because you have too much Bitcoin and you have no cash.
(06:32):
Or maybe you don't have enough Bitcoin and you're broke because your dollars are debasing.
So we can take this anywhere you guys want.
I think we have Neil in the car.
So maybe, Neil, do you want to chime in on any of these topics?
Where should we take it this morning?
(06:53):
I mean, just Bitcoin being broke in general, I think that's kind of all the things people are pointing at.
I actually think it shows how Bitcoin is not broken and working exactly like it's just a tool and it's a freedom tool.
And people are going to be people and try to scheme and try to exploit and cheat, like exploit each other.
(07:22):
So it's just like, you know, I don't the fact that people are doing whatever they want with the Bitcoin.
I just, you know, to me, that just shows that it that it is working, that there's not some gatekeeper that's trying to do.
Like the only thing that drives people's actions is the incentives.
And when you understand the Bitcoin's incentives and how it punishes the people that try to exploit it, it's just like, I don't know.
(07:50):
Like, the more people try to game it, the more they're going to get wrecked.
And the people that are just understand what it is are saving, DCAing, doing all the stuff that, you know, they're working with the incentives.
Like, they're going to get ahead.
So, you know, the longer this game goes, you know, I would say the more righteous people come out on top.
(08:19):
and everybody else just gets wrecked.
So that's what comforts me whenever, I mean,
my personal opinions on what I would do or what I would run,
what, you know, what node I run, all that stuff, like, that's for me.
And I speak my mind with my actions and contribute to the network.
(08:40):
I'm just a, I'm just a, that's what, like, peer to peer.
We are the same.
We are equal.
and I don't know.
I have my voice and my actions
and I contribute to the network in my own way
and everybody else does the same.
I'm not too worried about Bitcoin being broken.
I think these things work themselves out in the wash.
(09:07):
Yeah, I tend to agree.
I think people get bored
and other people like to engagement farm
and bring up some of these issues.
I do think it's interesting to kind of go back and listen.
I heard a clip from Andreas Antonopoulos,
and I think the way he was explaining it and breaking it down very simply several years ago,
(09:30):
if not a decade ago, really, I think, was wise.
We're coming to it now where people are trying to fight about it,
and maybe it's just a lot of noise or engagement farming, as I said,
But curious to hear others' thoughts on these topics.
Texas Toast, BFP, what do you guys think?
(09:54):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that, like, people are upset when other people or entities or, you know,
The same people that are upset now when businesses are starting to see Bitcoin and its potential and allocate towards it,
(10:18):
they'll be the same people saying this when AI starts to adopt it or like AI agents.
I think it'll be similar.
I think a lot of it's noise.
There are some salient points about, like, you could argue about Knotts and Core and kind of the incentives there, but just the amount of users, I don't think that's a good argument.
(10:44):
And the types of users, whether they're businesses or individuals.
BFP, do we have you back, sir?
You want to do a mic check?
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm back.
I wasn't clear on the question exactly.
Can you repeat it real quick?
(11:05):
Yeah, we were talking about UTXO consolidation this morning.
No, I'm just kidding.
We're talking about all of the different ways that people are trying to say that Bitcoin is broken.
and even on a personal level, some people would consider themselves Bitcoin broke, maybe because
(11:27):
they have no dollars and they're living on a complete Bitcoin standard.
Or maybe some people are broke because, yeah, they don't have enough Bitcoin and their dollars
are, they hold too many dollars and they're debasing.
So you're kind of taking, I'm broke.
Everybody's broke.
(11:48):
I don't know about you,
but I just got rid of all my Bitcoin because I was afraid that,
that,
that last conversation we had Friday,
you know,
they're going to mark them.
And,
uh,
I didn't want to get caught with any Bitcoin.
So I just got rid of all mine.
So now I'm in only fiat and I'm giving that away to the poor.
(12:12):
Next.
So I'm going to have zero money with in-kind redemptions.
Uh,
with the ETFs where you can just trade your Bitcoin in for a nice security that's managed
and brokered by all of these large banks and institutions. I don't see why you would have
sold your Bitcoin. I mean, there's clearly just a better path. I'm a benevolent, altruistic person.
(12:39):
I really, I'm like the government. I love and care about all my citizens and I want everyone
to be safe and happy.
So I'm just in that mood and that mode.
So yeah, I've got nothing.
And I walk my dog and I'm happy.
That's it.
(13:00):
But if you notice, those in the audience, there are no birds chirping.
It is not a happy day for BFP if he truly did sell his Bitcoin, which I don't think
he did.
But let's focus on this question, really, though.
is Bitcoin broken? And I think what we should really key in on this morning for people,
(13:21):
as you listen to the arguments and the debates and the engagement farming and all the stuff,
at its core, and I don't mean to use that term, it's not meant to be a pun, but
if Bitcoin is broken, it would mean that the rules can be changed against the will of the majority.
(13:42):
and we're not seeing that.
Now, people try to argue that
and I'd love to get some other voices up here
to maybe represent that side.
Well, I think the argument is that the rules are not being changed.
There's like two sets of arguments from what I'm understanding.
(14:04):
Maybe somebody else can clear it up for me.
But there's one side that says the rules aren't being changed,
but they are, the system is being manipulated into a way that makes it unusable or, you know,
kind of breaks incentives and things like that. And then, and so that's kind of like the knots
(14:26):
filters is how I'm framing it in my head. But then there's also the core argument of these guys are
also trying to change certain, you know, aspects of the code to make those types of transactions
and behaviors more incentivized, or at least kind of like the barriers are dropped that
(14:52):
were in place in the first place.
And so, I don't know, it just like goes back and forth.
So the real question becomes, you know, will the incentives change?
And, like, will people be able to use the network the way they want to into the future?
So I don't know.
(15:13):
I think if we dial it back, and maybe I'm making this too simple, but is it the case that the network could stop producing blocks securely?
I think that's a question.
I think everybody has the freedom to run whichever version, filters or not.
But the reality is that transactions are going to occur and miners are going to pick up transactions,
(15:41):
whether they have monetary value or not, and put them on network, on the ledger, permanently, no matter what.
Does anybody else have thoughts on that?
It a showstopper We trying to He not taking the bait Go ahead B I just don think that going to happen these days If all the miners decided to quit there so many just small miners
(16:22):
You know, there's bid axes everywhere.
We're at the most ridiculous hash power we've been at.
It's not going away.
There's nothing even close to breaking Bitcoin that's in my mind out there.
some serious
serious positioning
(16:43):
by the powers that be
and you know they're going to keep trying
but we'll see
usually hurts them in the end
Neil I think I saw your hand
are you still interested in speaking
this morning
yeah so on the mining bit
like you said like
is the network still capable of
producing blocks securely
(17:04):
and it's like I mean even if
But if we cut the hash rate by like 99%, it would still do.
The hash rate doesn't actually matter for the securing of the block.
The network will produce the blocks.
Difficulty adjustment and all that.
So it's like the thing that I kind of – people get fixated on the profit motive for the miners.
(17:31):
but like i don't think that's the primary i don't think that's the primary incentive for mining like
the whole purpose of mining is to secure the network which is in everybody's you know every
every holder's interest is to secure the network so like i don't know if i had to put my little
profit hat on um i mean i think that i think mining decentralizes in the future like massively
(18:00):
Like people are talking about putting, you know, you know, miners in their water heaters.
And, you know, like it's just like when mining goes out to everybody where it's just like this, they're they're matching the utility case of like heating, using the heat for just regular sunken cost utilities.
(18:20):
I like I think that could really change the whole dynamic of mining.
of mining. So it's not just like, I'm this huge minor organization trying to, uh, you know,
compete on this, like, like mining is the most competitive prop. It might be the most competitive
business venture, like in the world. I mean, like you are, you're not, if, as soon as you're making
(18:44):
any margin, like other people are going to, you know, be crowding you out for it. So it's just
like, I don't know. I think, I think that like everything I'm, I'm a perfect pay with the tension,
you know, like these competing interests and incentives, like that's part of the
like opposite springs. Like, so people see tension and they, they're like, ah, conflict
(19:08):
and they get kind of worried about it. But like, I think that it's actually a good thing.
Let these things work out, let the incentives play out, let people make decisions and do that.
And I think that's ultimately why Bitcoin wins.
Well, to me, it's like we get to the end of the adoption S-curve and mining, you know, like nation states.
(19:32):
If the majority of your population and your banking and your Wall Street and it's like if everything is in bed with this asset, it becomes a national security interest to mine.
And so in my mind, it's like there will be a time when Bitcoin is mined at a loss monetarily, but it's, you know, it's still considered valuable and necessary.
(19:56):
So that's where like the end game is in my head.
And so to me, it's just like an adoption path to get there.
And we see the payout model with the four-year halvings.
And, you know, maybe there was some thought there that this is kind of a smooth way to transition into that system.
(20:17):
Yeah, I think with – all right.
The privacy war is basically ramping up, and I think mining offers you a blind, or basically it gives you privacy.
Those are KYC AML3 Satoshis going into your wallet.
(20:39):
So this privacy war is the next battle, we'll call it, because it's the next battle with all the powers that be.
And I see a different endgame.
I see the state shrinking as the currency falls because it makes everything more voluntary
and the state has to adopt.
(21:03):
You know, people are always going to need things provided that the government does provide.
So I think it stays alive, but it loses a lot of power when it loses the power of the dollar as a control vector.
but that's a long way off.
I would agree. I think that is truly a long way off.
(21:26):
And main reason being, because you're going to have other currencies,
fiat currencies collapsing into the dollar as time goes on and stable coins
become more relevant and prevalent. So that has to happen first.
But yeah, I think we got some good comments on this one.
(21:47):
One thing that I think about from the perspective of the argument that by including all of these spam or junk transactions, as some people would see them, this makes it so it's too expensive for normal people to run a node.
And for me, I just don't buy that argument because while the Bitcoin ledger is getting larger and arguably bloated, I don't think that it takes into account the cost of storage space coming down precipitously.
(22:25):
So I think if you look at it right now, depending on which implementation you're running, you should probably have a two terabyte drive for your node.
And as we all know, the cost of storage space and processing power and RAM is all coming down over time.
(22:49):
And so I just think that this hasn't happened quickly enough to actually make it so normal people cannot run their own node.
So any reaction to that?
Any arguments for or against?
Would love to hear what you guys think.
(23:11):
Or maybe I'm missing part of the argument.
So, I mean, would you guys, from what you've seen, would you say that that's the main argument for filtering?
If I understand it right, they didn't actually increase the block size.
So, like, the blocks are still the same, but the UTXO, what is it, the list or whatever, is that, I don't know, I'm not always up to speed.
(23:42):
kind of a retard with the technical
technical stuff.
I think the
principle in play is just like
you can't increase it at a rate
that actually threatens
the
decentralization of the network.
The chain is going
to get bigger. That is
(24:03):
guaranteed.
This is what happens when you add
blocks, but it's just
are we adding blocks
at the rate, you know, it doesn't actually decentralization.
And I think I agree with you on that point.
Like, I don't think anything has changed.
That's a threat in that sense.
(24:28):
MySpace is bugging out.
But AC, who's a longtime contributor and listener,
did post in the comments that this is the more important thing than not.
So hit that purple pill if you want to see what he's talking about.
But essentially that the fees that are added on top of the subsidy of 3.125 Bitcoin every block are ultra low.
(24:52):
And so maybe this is just a place for another reminder that you can consolidate UTXOs pretty cheaply right now.
But AC is saying that this may be a more important topic rather than core versus nots or nots versus core, that right now people are using layer twos or maybe, and I don't want to put words in his mouth so he's free to come up here, but also that people are not using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange.
(25:27):
that it seems that the big ETFs and Bitcoin treasury companies are gobbling up the Bitcoin.
And so any of that strike any of you or any of you want to chime in while we try to get AC up here?
(25:51):
I can go if my audio is good.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, I was going to, I kind of lost my train of thought now.
I always go through a dead spot there, but I apologize.
(26:16):
Yeah, so I think the big question is, is like, because nobody's using the on-chain network, does this pose a threat?
Like, are people worried about this? You know, I've seen fees really high and I've seen fees sustainably low this year.
So it's kind of interesting. But I do think we have AC joining us.
(26:38):
So we'll give him a second to come up here. But I'd love to hear his thoughts. Go ahead.
Real quick, it's it's good money driving out bad.
people are not going to make this their daily
currency when they can spend their fiat dollars and most people have not
adopted a 100% Bitcoin
(27:01):
allocation like myself so they're going to spend the
fiat.
AC, good morning sir. Can we get a mic check?
Yeah, how's it going guys? How do you have me? You're sounding great. Go ahead.
Awesome. Yeah, you know, Bob, my point with that image wasn't necessarily the fees, although that is an important factor. Really, it was the fact that I think it was seven or eight, maybe more blocks in a row were all mined by Foundry.
(27:37):
And I think that's kind of a big deal, something that we need to be concerned about. I know there's a push in the community for decentralized templates through ocean. I think that that's something everybody should at least look at and consider.
You know, the centralization of mining pools is really the big concern.
But to your point, Bob, as well, you know, the transaction fees, eventually we're going to hit this tipping point where the block subsidy, that portion of the reward that is cut in half every epoch, is going to go down.
(28:11):
And all of these miners are going to have to sustain operations via transaction fees.
And really, I think that we're getting close to a tipping point. And we see it as some of these big miners are starting to pivot more into HPC or high-powered computing. And I think it was BFP who mentioned it earlier about the pleb miners at home. And I think Neil mentioned the heat punks.
(28:36):
And really, we're getting to a point where I think a lot of these big centralized miners are going to start to move in a different direction for profitability, whether that's HPC or AI.
And really, it's incumbent on all Bitcoiners to run not only nodes, but do some pleb mining at home, whether that's something like a Bidax or an Apollo or something like that to contribute to the decentralized mining.
(29:03):
and then at the same time point their hash power towards something like an ocean with decentralized templates
to really get away from, you know, these big central, these large centralized miners,
these large centralized pools and really get back to the core and the ethos of Bitcoin, which is decentralization.
So I'll kind of land it there. Thanks.
(29:24):
Yeah, thanks for coming up and sharing that.
Anybody have any response?
Neil, you're emoting BFP. You guys like that?
Yeah, I just wanted to say that, you know, Satoshi Nakamoto was AI from the future meant to pave the road for AI adoption. That is all.
(29:46):
I want to say that these guys are clearly some of the most gifted engineers of, you know, crypto computers, money.
I mean, you name it, Satoshi himself.
(30:08):
and not to say the rest of them aren't geniuses too,
but they designed this from the ground up to, you know, thwart attacks.
And it's 16 years and every person in power that is protecting their fiat currency
(30:30):
is well aware and they're fighting.
They just don't know what to do.
So kudos to those engineers from the get-go.
Neil, my friend.
Yeah, I agree with just about everything that you're saying vehemently.
(30:51):
That's decentralization.
That's the whole principle.
That's what makes it all work.
So I was like, I see that that principle is just going to, you know, saturate in or permeate or whatever through all the different functions.
(31:13):
You know, even even like the idea of, you know, decentralizing hold yet the holders, the nodes and the miners.
And it's like, you know, that's what that's what orange pilling is.
That's what we're decentralizing the holders.
We're spreading it out.
And, you know, you make a new Bitcoiner, you know, I think, you know, when you get to them talking about, hey, you need to run your node, you know, and saying, hey, you need to be do your part and like solo mine, too.
(31:44):
Like, I think that's that's part of that progression.
I mean, I just can't even believe we only have like 20,000 nodes or something like that.
Like that seems like such a small number, you know, compared to how many people hold some Bitcoin.
And it's like, I don't know, it's kind of like your civic duty as a Bitcoiner to run your node and to make your voice heard through your actions.
(32:11):
And I'm not a miner yet.
I don't have any of that stuff up and running, but it's definitely on the list of stuff to contribute.
There only so much time that you have to dedicate towards everything But kind of tying that into that idea of like is are the etfs and all this other stuff kind of breaking bitcoin and it like to me i don even
(32:40):
i i can't get it out of my head that the formal functions of money are bundled together store
value medium of exchange unit of account so like they come uh it's take one or take all like as
long as people are using this money, I don't care if they're storing it, you know, to save
for later or if they're using it on chain, you know, for their daily transactions.
(33:04):
Like what's important to me is that you see Bitcoin and you treat Bitcoin like money.
That's I think as long as somebody has that principle and they're acting that out in their
life, I'm perfectly OK with however that whatever actions they're taking.
(33:24):
I think, you know, it gets me thinking about that AC is just sour.
It's like the, and I'm teasing, about the foundry finding so many blocks in a row.
I mean, man, they're just on a win streak.
It's kind of like the New England Patriots.
They, you know, won over and over again,
and there were just a lot of people who hate Tom Brady, and that's fine.
(33:47):
No, but I do think, to his point, that it is important that the network stays decentralized.
If it's not, then, yeah, it's one of the key tenets, right?
And so, BFP, I see your hand.
Go ahead.
(34:14):
Sadly, we lost him.
all right well that's too bad i'm sure you had something amazing to say texas toast
yeah um i mean to me it seems like the ocean trend is in the right direction
seems like they're gaining steam so that's that's a good thing um i like the uh
(34:38):
kind of bifurcation that we have with knots and core i think that's a good thing um and then
And overall, it just seems like weak FUD.
Like we're at a weird point.
They've run out of all the rest of the FUD.
So we got to dredge up some new stuff and make people get a little queasy in their tum-tums and see if they sell their Bitcoin and then make them pay for it.
(35:05):
So I don't know.
That's the way I'm looking at it.
Yeah, I like that description.
description i do think people just get bored especially in these sideways troughs um someone
should start keeping track of all of the garbage that uh has to go back and forth uh the reality is
that some people just don't like other people and they want to fight about it uh i think you know
(35:31):
in this space at least we try to laugh at ourselves and um be inclusive uh other than to
the shit coiners because they have no place here, but, um,
but in all seriousness, no, I do think that we, um, you know,
we try to make sure that people are learning things, but you know,
(35:52):
it's fun to, to kick these things around. I don't,
I don't want to jump to any conclusions on any of this stuff.
I like healthy debate.
I think a lot of times we get into these rooms and spaces and you hear the
same things and hopefully the topics that we're bringing up make you guys think now are we going
to give you conclusive answers no but i think we're all heading towards a certain a certain path
(36:17):
and a certain ethos and so hopefully you find some of these topics encouraging and um doesn't mean
you have to get in the middle of the debate by any means but it also shouldn't scare you out of
continuing to participate in the best money and the best monetary network. And so I think that's
(36:39):
maybe some of the risk that we find out there where people who are new come in and they start
seeing these big fights, these big debates, and lots of, again, engagement farming, hyperbole,
and it shakes people's confidence just because they haven't done all of the study and they don't
know necessarily how to think about these things. And so am I an expert? No. Have I been in the
(37:05):
space quite a while? Yes. I think that the network is incredible. And that's why I'm here trying to
educate people, having fun kicking these things around. And so as I zoom out, I just want to make
sure that people who listen every day and try to understand this stuff, realize, sure, we like to
(37:28):
a good time we like to make fun of ourselves uh but we do want to help encourage people to continue
on their stacking goals and to not get shaken out of their positions because
they're new and don't have the information so um yeah any comments on on my big diatribe there
(37:52):
go ahead bfp
I got cut off earlier
I couldn't hear Bob
but I was just going to say
we're crazy early
when it comes to the spread of this network
and you can just see it
when you try to orange people
how hard it is
and so this isn't spreading
(38:13):
like it's going to
at a certain tipping point
and that's when
you're going to see the miners
everyone's going to
it's going to click.
I don't know how it all works out, but it'll be fun to watch.
Neil, go ahead.
Yeah, I like what you're saying.
(38:34):
To me, you're talking about priorities.
We're putting first things first when it comes to orange-pilling people.
That's kind of the idea of someone being curious about Bitcoin
but scared off by the FUD because there's, you know, that's kind of, I guess, my, my,
(38:59):
how I kind of think about the whole privacy thing.
You know, it's important, but not primary where it's like, you know, if I could get,
you know, my uncle who's thinking about Bitcoin to, to just, to get into it, you know, to
understand what it's like, Hey, you know, you're being debased. You are being enslaved. This is,
(39:24):
this is really like the first and foremost thing. Like that's the problem. And you need to
protect yourself and your family from that. And he gets some ETF. I don't give a shit. Like,
I just want him to, to start on his path to actually start the Bitcoin journey and eventually
get further and further down. I wouldn't want him to be like, Oh, well I can't get right now.
(39:46):
I don't know how to get the non-KYC Bitcoin.
So I just might as well throw in the towel and just say, fuck it.
Like that's kind of like we can kind of err if we hit.
We're trying to orange pill people.
If we hit them with, you know, too complicated things or this or that, like the wrong.
It's also into the person.
You know, you're talking to what's going to work best for them.
(40:08):
But like we can kind of get a little over our skis and miss the easy low hanging fruit, which is just like you need Bitcoin.
Like you need it in your life. You need a money that doesn't, you know, let you just be controlled, you know, by those at the printer.
And it's just like, I kind of, I just, I want to develop, you know, kind of like almost in the army where we have these SOPs, we have these manuals where it's like, how do you walk the, you know, the 18 year old kid step by step to being like a proficient rifleman and part of a squad and working within the platoon?
(40:46):
Like, how do you how do you transition that? And it's like, well, you do it step by step by doing first things first and then second things and then third things.
And that walk, crawl, run type of approach. It's like that's kind of where I'm seeing like those are the products that I want to develop to help kind of standardize that orange pilling process where we're not asking too much of them when people aren't ready.
(41:16):
I mean, because even I'm still on my journey, like I have so much shit to learn, you know, and get involved in.
But I have to like, I'm trying to even figure that out for me.
Like, OK, what's the next thing that I need to learn how to do to be a better Bitcoiner?
But sorry, I'm just ranting.
No, you're good.
You know, I agree.
(41:38):
You got to teach them crawl, walk, run.
But if you've ever been to Navy boot camp and seen the remedial swim class, you can only teach somebody to swim so much without just pushing them in the water.
So there comes a point where it's like people are going to have to just immerse themselves and buy some and use the network because you can't understand it without doing that.
(42:03):
It's as simple as that.
So I've been having this conversation with family members and at our family company.
And, you know, I'm getting heat for having an allocation towards Bitcoin, any allocation.
This is coming from these Warren Buffett boomers that, you know, he's starting out saying it's against a fiduciary duty to have Bitcoin in your treasury in any allocation.
(42:28):
And so then I gave him a general AI response, you know, that refuting all his points.
This dude wrote out like an eight page email trying to refute Bitcoin.
So I just gave him slop AI that actually hit all his talking points back.
It took me 30 seconds on the car ride home without having to like sit down and, you know, drain my brain of this crap.
(42:51):
But then I got him to move the goalposts of, oh, OK, all these other guys have, you know, de minimis allocations.
Not zero, but de minimis. And so, OK, so it's not zero isn't the proper allocation.
That's the biggest thing to kind of understand and get these people to understand.
You are doing yourself a disservice. And I would argue it is, you know, you are neglecting your fiduciary duty if you don't have an allocation to this asset.
(43:19):
You know, what what is the percentage and all that? That's one thing.
but to say zero, I think you are wrong in a, in a huge way.
And I'll fight you for that.
The terror your kids must feel at bath time,
Texas toast, just throwing them right in the water.
My kids are the best swimmers around.
(43:41):
No, it's good. I do think it's true. Like we, you know,
some people put it a little bit more delicately and other people just have,
are short on patience.
And yeah,
I do think that some people really are missing the boat,
but the reality is that they're going to come to it at some point.
(44:02):
And so,
you know,
I just wonder if sarcasm is going to work with some people like,
okay,
you don't want any,
that's fine.
And that's where I think we get this have fun staying for mentality from
some people,
not me,
but some people.
For me.
Well,
Yeah, exactly. I don't necessarily think that's wrong. But if we are playing the long game, patience is required, especially with a lot of people who are, yeah, I think stubborn.
(44:33):
The thing is, if you understand, sorry, sorry to cut you off, but if you understand these people, these, you know, this type of American, you know, man that has done really well in this system and, you know, has his heroes of Warren Buffett and these guys, it's like they have to be humiliated.
(44:56):
They have to, you know, be shown that they're wrong in an aggressive way.
That's the only way they're going to get it.
And then if they, you know, the strong ones will actually, you know,
change their perspective, and that's the people we want.
And the weak ones will wither on the vine, and they'll be gone in a generation.
So that's the way I see it.
(45:18):
BFP, how big is your hammer?
I just wanted to say the thing that Texas Toast is talking about
made me think of Jack Mahler's when he had a rant.
I think it was on his last show maybe, but he's talking about allocation,
and he's like, 1%? 1%?
(45:40):
So you mean, you know, he's like Texas Toast.
He'll just come right out and say it, cursing and everything.
And he was ranting about, are you an effing idiot?
is like your 99% is going down in value
and your 1% is beating everything,
(46:02):
every asset there is,
and you have 1% allocated,
you're an effing retard.
It was great though,
but it made me think of Texas Toast.
It does remind me of the meme that says,
let's just ignore the best performing asset
over the last, you know, 16 years or of all time.
(46:24):
I'm not sure if I see hands.
Two screens here.
One has hands, one doesn't.
So I guess I'm going to go with no hands.
Other thoughts on this topic, guys.
I know we're coming up to the end of the show.
You guys would please retweet the space, repost the space.
I guess we don't tweet anymore.
But, yeah, we do this every weekday, 10 a.m. Eastern.
(46:46):
would love to have you join us again.
BFP, maybe that's a hand this time.
I don't know.
My screen's bugging out as usual.
No, it's not.
Sorry.
Awesome.
All right.
So, yeah, other thoughts on this topic?
Or we can shift back, guys, to this idea of, I mean,
(47:09):
I think we kind of rolled around into it,
which is for the people who don't have enough Bitcoin
and the people out there that are still trying to stack, do people feel broke?
I think when the time comes where maybe we get overheated, people, as their confidence grows,
(47:30):
because they're solely looking at price, maybe get overextended and tend to put too much in.
I do see a lot of people leveraging, trying to borrow unsafely against their Bitcoin
or against other things to buy Bitcoin.
And I wonder at what level is it irresponsible? So, you know, just to follow up on Texas Toast, on one hand, you have people who are vehemently against buying Bitcoin.
(47:55):
And then on the other hand, you have people taking maybe some undue risk, especially as the price runs up.
And so just wanted to see if you guys had any thoughts around borrowing, around any of these other things where people are just trying to stack as hard as possible and sometimes doing it in a risky manner.
(48:16):
Yeah, I mean, to me, a conservative approach makes sense when you're starting out.
Like that is completely logical and the way to do it.
And you really don't kind of get comfortable with the network until you're like two cycles in.
Honestly, like a good eight years, seven, eight years.
That's when you really I've noticed with talking to different people that have been around for a long time.
(48:39):
It like you know everybody felt broke probably until they were like two cycles in because they had an allocation Even these whales it like they had so much Bitcoin but they were unable to use it because the liquidity wasn there
And they knew that. And so they were kind of waiting and biding their time.
I'm sure they felt broke. You know, the first five, six, seven, eight years they were involved in the network to a large extent.
(49:09):
So it's an interesting thing, and you got to pay your dues.
If you're super smart, maybe you can learn some of these hard lessons that Bitcoin teaches you.
You can learn them quick, but definitely getting over allocated and over your skis and losing leverage and these kind of things.
(49:30):
It's like you'll learn quicker, but it also has the risk of maybe scaring you off and really wiping you out if you're not.
careful. So, yeah, it's that radical responsibility that you often share with us,
where people need to be holding onto their own keys, self-custody, which by the way,
(49:55):
we can help you with. If you need that guidance, please go to bitcoinveterans.org,
plug your information, get you plugged in with helpful resources to self-custody.
Um, but it's also this responsibility of just managing your money and your finance as well.
And, um, I wonder if, uh, what you guys think, I think we have just, uh, we lost VIP again,
(50:22):
but do you think retail is here and do you think people are going to start get getting overextended?
And what do you guys think about this whole thing with, even if you're not overextended personally, investing in companies like Strategy and others that are doing these creative leveraging strategies?
(50:46):
Does this worry you?
Do you think these are big potential problems when people are doing this?
Or what do you guys think?
not all at once i mean i'll respond if nobody else will but um yeah i mean it's it's just like
(51:11):
with anything um i think it's kind of healthy and shows some sort of maturing of the or integration
into kind of the wall street it's an embedding um i think it's going to be its demise in the end
but if you're intelligent and use a low percentage,
you might be able to get away with it and do well.
(51:34):
But make no mistake that anything that's paper Bitcoin
or on leverage is getting hunted.
So you just have to keep that in mind.
Neil, I see your hand. Go ahead.
Yeah, I mean, it just depends on what you want.
Like, what's your goal?
And for me personally, I just want to save.
Like they broke savings and I want to be able to save. So I save in Bitcoin. I self custody. That's what I do. I don't want any risk. I don't want to invest in Bitcoin. I don't want to because like that's not my area. I'm not an investor. I'm not an expert in all that financial engineering and craziness. So I don't mess with it.
(52:17):
If I was wanting to invest, I would invest in a treasury company because they are much better at the financial engineering than I am.
So I would outsource investing to them if I wanted to invest.
But I don't want to invest.
I just want to save.
I want to be sovereign myself.
(52:38):
I don't want any third-party risk.
I don't want to trust anybody.
I don't want anything like that.
So that's why I just, you know, I just save in Bitcoin.
But I mean, I understand that, hey, if somebody else wants to invest and take those risks and do that stuff, then I mean, I'm go for it.
You know, like that's just I just see them as distinct buckets, you know, like.
(53:05):
And I won't I won't cross pollinate those buckets in my mind like I have to keep them separate.
And I think if you ask yourself that and you keep those wires, you know, not crossed, I think you'll end up with where you want to go.
But if you think you're saving in Bitcoin and buying, you know, a bunch of like, you know, MSTR or something like that.
(53:25):
Well, like, I mean, that's not saving. That's investing.
You are taking on risk, and if you're unaware of risks that you're onboarding, you're going to get – if those roosters come home, it's going to shock the shit out of you.
But I don't know.
(53:47):
Yeah, I like how you framed that, that really if you dial it back – and I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it's – Bitcoin is a savings tool for you, sounds like.
And so all these other things do have counterparty risk.
And most people probably don't belong playing the game because really, if you are just trying to save, Bitcoin is the simple answer.
(54:15):
You just need to be disciplined and accumulate the asset based on your income and not take on risk by either lending out your Bitcoin and trying to get a yield or borrowing against it or borrowing against anything else.
And so it gets me wondering, you know, some people have mortgages that they could pay off with their Bitcoin holdings.
(54:44):
What are your thoughts on paying off, say, a 4% or 5% loan or maybe even lower, a 3% loan?
I think a lot of people got cheap mortgages back a few years ago.
What do you guys think about that?
If you had, say, like a 3%, 4% loan, 30-year fixed rate, knew it was locked in for at least as long as you're going to live there,
(55:07):
not that we're trying to give financial advice,
but how do you guys think about maybe taking money that you could use to pay
down that mortgage and buying Bitcoin or not selling Bitcoin that you have in
order to, yeah, have a,
have a bigger stack of Bitcoin and not pay down that, that debt.
(55:31):
How do you think about that?
nobody's up here with me anymore.
I'm sorry.
I'm walking around.
I'm getting freaking,
I'm at Sam's dude.
But yeah,
I don't know.
I,
I feel you there.
I'm personally not paying off my mortgage.
(55:55):
You know,
I,
I see it as a,
I'm going to play their system until it breaks.
So that's the way I'm looking at it,
But I can see the argument either way.
It would make me feel a lot better if I did pay it off.
But then every time I saw Bitcoin price rise, I would be thinking about it and regretting it.
(56:19):
So it's like, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Yeah, I think it comes back to what you said earlier about being in the space for a couple of cycles.
I think back to a vehicle that I purchased during the pandemic.
and now looking at how many miles have been put on that vehicle.
(56:40):
And sure, I need the utility of it, but man, that, I don't know,
I think it was like a $40,000 car that my wife drives around is now,
you know, it's in Bitcoin terms, we're talking almost a quarter of a million dollars.
(57:01):
So I do think it just takes time.
And so you have to weigh those things out. Obviously, we're not giving it advice, but we are saying these things are difficult decisions. Sometimes you got to take the risk off your plate and you'll sleep better at night. Other times, you just realize what asset you're holding. And it's better to take long term fixed rate debt and just keep paying on it rather than parting with something that's going to give you a far greater return.
(57:33):
So it's a game.
It's a thought process.
Jimmy, thanks for coming up, sir.
And good morning.
How's Mexico this morning?
Oh, it's doing great.
I got an hour long walk out in the desert and beautiful, gorgeous morning.
Yeah, it's funny.
As you brought this up, I was walking around and been working all morning.
And it just occurred to me, I'm using credit more than I ever have.
(57:56):
And ever since I got into Bitcoin for seven years, eight years, I've been using credit.
And before that, cash.
When I moved to Mexico, you don't pay for houses with loans.
Loans are not reasonable down here at all.
They're becoming more reasonable, but they haven't been at all.
And so you never borrow money.
And you get in the habit of just saving the money and buying it with cash.
(58:17):
I use credit cards for travel and things, but I didn't now.
I put off purchases all the time.
I bought a truck on a loan.
It's paid for by Bitcoin.
I can pay it off.
I won't pay it off because I just keep making money by not paying it off.
A 7% loan, expensive.
I have a 4% cash loan.
That, no problem.
Bitcoin, easily, I pay it back with the profits.
(58:39):
So, yeah, putting, see, my problem is I'm a Bitcoin maxi in the sense that I don't have anything else.
So I have to sell Bitcoin to live.
And I put myself in that position on purpose.
I'm not regretting it.
I still sell it a profit.
Guys get mad at you.
You're selling your sets.
It's like, well, yeah, some of us, that's all we've got.
And if you go there and you've been in it long enough, you're always selling it a profit.
(58:59):
But, yes, I put it off as much as I can.
And I just realized it bothers me because I don't like having loans.
I had a I bought an airplane with cash.
I just don't buy things.
You know, I used to.
I used to credit all the time in the States.
I played that game and I had very good credit rating.
But it's funny.
After getting into Bitcoin, I have borrowed more money and keep these loans going.
And it bugs me because I hate having payments.
(59:21):
But at the same time, I just kind of laugh because I think, well, I bought it at this.
And this is what I paid.
And I calculate all the interest, all the costs.
And I'm still way ahead of the game.
So, yeah, and even at a 7% loan, which is not a great loan.
But, yeah, I can see people borrowing.
I didn't borrow money to buy Bitcoin, but I borrowed money not to sell Bitcoin.
(59:44):
And, yeah, it's just putting off the debt.
It's at least a month because I use credit cards.
In some cases, I have long-term loans.
But, yeah, it's funny how it's got me into using more credit.
I hadn't even thought about it until now.
But I'm going to be soon paying off a lot of this stuff and just be done with it.
I don't like having it.
And I'm looking at Bitcoin loans, too.
(01:00:05):
I have friends that do them with Ledin and friends that do them with all different companies.
And it's enticing at the same time.
It's like, you know, I don't know.
But I will say this.
I started a construction project two months ago.
Yes, I have spent Bitcoin.
Yes, I have more money in fiat than when I started.
And every time I have built or bought something, you give it a few years, you look back and you go,
(01:00:26):
Well, basically, I got it for free in the sense that the profits pay for it.
So, you know, it's, you know, it's using your profits and, you know, it's robbing from my own future.
I know this, but I'm also 65 years, almost 66 years old and retired.
You know, it's like that's time for me to use my money.
It's not time for me to be stacking more.
But I don't recommend people borrow to play that game in the sense to buy it.
(01:00:51):
That's dangerous.
I know people that do trading on margin.
Oh, I've done it.
I've done all this stuff, but I do it for fun.
I didn't do it for an income.
When you do it for income, it's very stressful.
But yeah, anyway, it's kind of amazing how once you get into the Bitcoin standard,
you will find ways to not spend your Bitcoin.
It's harder and harder to get the sats out of my hands, obviously.
(01:01:12):
At the same time, I have good things to be spending it on,
like wealth or water and construction out here.
It makes a better future for me.
Where do you want to spend them?
It just becomes, but I don't buy frivolous shit and haven't for eight years.
I didn't even do it before, but I really don't buy clothes or anything I don't need.
You know, it's like, nope, don't really need it.
Pass.
(01:01:33):
It makes a savor out of you.
There's no doubt about it.
Yeah, good comments.
And I do think that it's, you know, you brought up a lot of good points, but one of the things that I think of often just as I relate to other people is, you know, as you get older at some point, when is enough enough?
Right.
And, you know, I think about this myself.
(01:01:55):
It's like, well, I'm stacking, but, you know, at some point you got to enjoy what you saved as well.
And so I had that idea well before Bitcoin as a saver.
It's like, you know, when can you stop saving?
Maybe never, but when can you enjoy it?
And at some point, a lot of people, you know, they're just on this 40-year retirement path, right?
(01:02:20):
They have a career and they save up and all of a sudden their life has gone by and they now are able to retire, which is great.
But I wonder for other folks, like especially Bitcoiners, where you're purchasing power is actually outpacing other folks, especially people with heavy concentrations of fiat currencies.
(01:02:46):
at what point do you start saying hey you know i need to live life little and enjoy some of this so
i do think there's a balance but uh we're going to wrap up the show guys do you want to say good
morning or yeah i guess it's good afternoon for you rico uh how are you uh doing this morning
um great thank you um i appreciate you guys face i'll have to listen to the recording i i forget
(01:03:07):
what time it is there but i'm excellent thank you for asking for asking yeah we'll do this again
tomorrow 10 a.m. Eastern time
and hope that you guys all join us.
A couple of announcements,
please do check out
bitcoinveterans.org
forward slash summit 2025.
Great conference,
November 10th and 11th.
Love to have you guys there.
(01:03:28):
If you have a topic
you want to speak on,
plug it in
and we will have a discussion with you.
Also looking for a producer
for the show
so that the opening music
isn't going in and out,
which I got a lot of DMs about.
So sorry about that this morning.
But, yeah, if you're interested in producing or for all the speakers who come up here,
you want to get in the back channel for the show notes so you can know what we're going to talk about.
(01:03:52):
I was messaging with Pubby this morning, and he unfortunately couldn't be here,
but did want to send a word of encouragement to everybody.
He's getting his teeth cleaned.
So we'll get to talk to him tomorrow.
And he said he'd join us.
So he's not mad at anybody.
He's just occupied.
So, but yeah, guys, that's it for today. Awesome Monday. Thanks for the discussion. We'll do it again tomorrow.
(01:04:20):
Any final words from anybody? No, it just looks like I'm getting a bunch of emojis.
So, yeah, we'll end it there. Want to wish you guys a great Monday. Make it a great day.
And remember, do not shitcoin.
It's like taking cough medicine to cure your hemorrhoids.
(01:04:41):
For people that use fiat currency as a store of value, we call them more.
Thank you.
(00:30):
All right, good morning, everybody.
Maybe my music was fading, so sorry about that.
But trying some new things this morning and appreciate your patience.
Some people just don't like the mad beats in the morning.
(00:50):
So, yeah, any feedback, welcome.
And, yeah, welcome, everybody, to Bitcoin Veteran Spaces number 245.
where we talk about Bitcoin.
My name is Bob Van Kirk. I'll be your host this morning.
I am joined on stage so far by Neil and BFP.
(01:10):
Good morning, gentlemen.
Today is Monday, August 18th, 2025.
Let's take a look at the time chain today.
We are at Bitcoin block height number 900, 10,487, working on about a...
Is this right? A 20-hour block? Is that correct?
Man, crazy.
(01:31):
If that's correct, no, that's not right.
Sorry, my screen hadn't updated.
We're at 910,620.
Wow, had that way off.
With the Bitcoin price sitting at 115,000 US dollars,
which means you can still pick up around 870 sats for your dollars.
(01:54):
All right, a couple of announcements this morning before we get started.
Bitcoin Veterans is having their second annual summit on November 10th and 11th in Nashville in coordination with Bitcoin Park.
Day one is going to be the conference.
You won't want to miss it.
And day two, you probably won't want to miss that either.
We have range day.
So you'll be able to fire some firearms.
(02:15):
And looking to get people involved, go to BitcoinVeterans.org forward slash summit 2025 to get involved.
We need speakers, panel topics, and volunteers.
If you're interested, we would love to have you come as an attendee as well.
So again, bitcoinveterans.org for slash 2025.
(02:38):
Also, speaker announcement for this week.
We have Rod Rudy from Bitcoin Park.
Hope I'm saying his name right.
I have not met Rod personally, but excited to have him on.
So that should be an exciting discussion for this Wednesday.
And then the last announcement, because I know you guys just get so annoyed with all these announcements.
(02:58):
We are looking for a producer for the show.
So if you guys, anybody in the audience is interested, please DM me.
Would love to connect with you and see if it might be a good fit.
And also, if you're a speaker and you want to know the topics ahead of time, happy to add you to the Signal group.
Please do send me a DM about that as well.
(03:21):
Then lastly, for everybody in the audience, thank you for listening.
We'd love to have your participation.
So if you'd like to join in on the topics, please do hit that microphone button to come up on stage.
We'll be nice to you.
Maybe.
No, we will.
And if you can't because you're just listening and you want to participate,
(03:42):
please do drop your comments or your memes or snide remarks,
questions in that little purple pill in the bottom right.
And we'll try to get to that during the show.
We do keep this show hopefully an hour if we can,
but appreciate everybody being here.
And I think we lost BFP to the matrix.
(04:03):
So I want to say first, good morning, Neil.
How are you this morning, sir?
I'm doing real good.
And I've just been working on a presentation for a local Bitcoin meetup.
So that's been exciting to have something to focus on.
Nice.
(04:24):
Yeah, do you care to tell us about the presentation?
Is the topic relevant to Bitcoin, I would guess?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, it's just, uh, it's basically just kind of the book in an hour, the hot topics
and just a different way of thinking about it.
Um, condensing, compressing the signal.
(04:47):
Nice.
That's very good.
Uh, yeah.
I'll be interested to, uh, I don't know if you put that presentation, uh, in the back
channel.
Maybe we can get you to do that.
That'd be cool.
But I would encourage you guys check out Neil's book.
Good stuff.
a very interesting way that he comes about it.
And let's see, I think we're getting BFP to come back up here.
(05:12):
Maybe Texas toast as well.
Give me a second here, guys, while we rearrange the space here.
Get some folks up here.
Good morning, Texas toast.
How are you, sir?
Good morning.
I just accepted the co. Sorry I'm late. It's a Monday.
(05:38):
Did you get your coffee this morning?
I got it, but it's empty, man. I got a new schedule and I'm running low on coffee. I need to refill.
All right. Well, today's topic is broke or broken. Depends on which way you guys want to take it.
But my question is, there's a lot of chatter here on X and other places about Bitcoin being broken or broke.
(06:09):
The ongoing battle between Bitcoin Core and NOTs, we could take it there.
Some people are saying the ETFs and Bitcoin treasury companies buying up all the freedom money is breaking Bitcoin.
And then we could also cover today if you're broke because you have too much Bitcoin and you have no cash.
(06:32):
Or maybe you don't have enough Bitcoin and you're broke because your dollars are debasing.
So we can take this anywhere you guys want.
I think we have Neil in the car.
So maybe, Neil, do you want to chime in on any of these topics?
Where should we take it this morning?
(06:53):
I mean, just Bitcoin being broke in general, I think that's kind of all the things people are pointing at.
I actually think it shows how Bitcoin is not broken and working exactly like it's just a tool and it's a freedom tool.
And people are going to be people and try to scheme and try to exploit and cheat, like exploit each other.
(07:22):
So it's just like, you know, I don't the fact that people are doing whatever they want with the Bitcoin.
I just, you know, to me, that just shows that it that it is working, that there's not some gatekeeper that's trying to do.
Like the only thing that drives people's actions is the incentives.
And when you understand the Bitcoin's incentives and how it punishes the people that try to exploit it, it's just like, I don't know.
(07:50):
Like, the more people try to game it, the more they're going to get wrecked.
And the people that are just understand what it is are saving, DCAing, doing all the stuff that, you know, they're working with the incentives.
Like, they're going to get ahead.
So, you know, the longer this game goes, you know, I would say the more righteous people come out on top.
(08:19):
and everybody else just gets wrecked.
So that's what comforts me whenever, I mean,
my personal opinions on what I would do or what I would run,
what, you know, what node I run, all that stuff, like, that's for me.
And I speak my mind with my actions and contribute to the network.
(08:40):
I'm just a, I'm just a, that's what, like, peer to peer.
We are the same.
We are equal.
and I don't know.
I have my voice and my actions
and I contribute to the network in my own way
and everybody else does the same.
I'm not too worried about Bitcoin being broken.
I think these things work themselves out in the wash.
(09:07):
Yeah, I tend to agree.
I think people get bored
and other people like to engagement farm
and bring up some of these issues.
I do think it's interesting to kind of go back and listen.
I heard a clip from Andreas Antonopoulos,
and I think the way he was explaining it and breaking it down very simply several years ago,
(09:30):
if not a decade ago, really, I think, was wise.
We're coming to it now where people are trying to fight about it,
and maybe it's just a lot of noise or engagement farming, as I said,
But curious to hear others' thoughts on these topics.
Texas Toast, BFP, what do you guys think?
(09:54):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that, like, people are upset when other people or entities or, you know,
The same people that are upset now when businesses are starting to see Bitcoin and its potential and allocate towards it,
(10:18):
they'll be the same people saying this when AI starts to adopt it or like AI agents.
I think it'll be similar.
I think a lot of it's noise.
There are some salient points about, like, you could argue about Knotts and Core and kind of the incentives there, but just the amount of users, I don't think that's a good argument.
(10:44):
And the types of users, whether they're businesses or individuals.
BFP, do we have you back, sir?
You want to do a mic check?
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm back.
I wasn't clear on the question exactly.
Can you repeat it real quick?
(11:05):
Yeah, we were talking about UTXO consolidation this morning.
No, I'm just kidding.
We're talking about all of the different ways that people are trying to say that Bitcoin is broken.
and even on a personal level, some people would consider themselves Bitcoin broke, maybe because
(11:27):
they have no dollars and they're living on a complete Bitcoin standard.
Or maybe some people are broke because, yeah, they don't have enough Bitcoin and their dollars
are, they hold too many dollars and they're debasing.
So you're kind of taking, I'm broke.
Everybody's broke.
(11:48):
I don't know about you,
but I just got rid of all my Bitcoin because I was afraid that,
that,
that last conversation we had Friday,
you know,
they're going to mark them.
And,
uh,
I didn't want to get caught with any Bitcoin.
So I just got rid of all mine.
So now I'm in only fiat and I'm giving that away to the poor.
(12:12):
Next.
So I'm going to have zero money with in-kind redemptions.
Uh,
with the ETFs where you can just trade your Bitcoin in for a nice security that's managed
and brokered by all of these large banks and institutions. I don't see why you would have
sold your Bitcoin. I mean, there's clearly just a better path. I'm a benevolent, altruistic person.
(12:39):
I really, I'm like the government. I love and care about all my citizens and I want everyone
to be safe and happy.
So I'm just in that mood and that mode.
So yeah, I've got nothing.
And I walk my dog and I'm happy.
That's it.
(13:00):
But if you notice, those in the audience, there are no birds chirping.
It is not a happy day for BFP if he truly did sell his Bitcoin, which I don't think
he did.
But let's focus on this question, really, though.
is Bitcoin broken? And I think what we should really key in on this morning for people,
(13:21):
as you listen to the arguments and the debates and the engagement farming and all the stuff,
at its core, and I don't mean to use that term, it's not meant to be a pun, but
if Bitcoin is broken, it would mean that the rules can be changed against the will of the majority.
(13:42):
and we're not seeing that.
Now, people try to argue that
and I'd love to get some other voices up here
to maybe represent that side.
Well, I think the argument is that the rules are not being changed.
There's like two sets of arguments from what I'm understanding.
(14:04):
Maybe somebody else can clear it up for me.
But there's one side that says the rules aren't being changed,
but they are, the system is being manipulated into a way that makes it unusable or, you know,
kind of breaks incentives and things like that. And then, and so that's kind of like the knots
(14:26):
filters is how I'm framing it in my head. But then there's also the core argument of these guys are
also trying to change certain, you know, aspects of the code to make those types of transactions
and behaviors more incentivized, or at least kind of like the barriers are dropped that
(14:52):
were in place in the first place.
And so, I don't know, it just like goes back and forth.
So the real question becomes, you know, will the incentives change?
And, like, will people be able to use the network the way they want to into the future?
So I don't know.
(15:13):
I think if we dial it back, and maybe I'm making this too simple, but is it the case that the network could stop producing blocks securely?
I think that's a question.
I think everybody has the freedom to run whichever version, filters or not.
But the reality is that transactions are going to occur and miners are going to pick up transactions,
(15:41):
whether they have monetary value or not, and put them on network, on the ledger, permanently, no matter what.
Does anybody else have thoughts on that?
It a showstopper We trying to He not taking the bait Go ahead B I just don think that going to happen these days If all the miners decided to quit there so many just small miners
(16:22):
You know, there's bid axes everywhere.
We're at the most ridiculous hash power we've been at.
It's not going away.
There's nothing even close to breaking Bitcoin that's in my mind out there.
some serious
serious positioning
(16:43):
by the powers that be
and you know they're going to keep trying
but we'll see
usually hurts them in the end
Neil I think I saw your hand
are you still interested in speaking
this morning
yeah so on the mining bit
like you said like
is the network still capable of
producing blocks securely
(17:04):
and it's like I mean even if
But if we cut the hash rate by like 99%, it would still do.
The hash rate doesn't actually matter for the securing of the block.
The network will produce the blocks.
Difficulty adjustment and all that.
So it's like the thing that I kind of – people get fixated on the profit motive for the miners.
(17:31):
but like i don't think that's the primary i don't think that's the primary incentive for mining like
the whole purpose of mining is to secure the network which is in everybody's you know every
every holder's interest is to secure the network so like i don't know if i had to put my little
profit hat on um i mean i think that i think mining decentralizes in the future like massively
(18:00):
Like people are talking about putting, you know, you know, miners in their water heaters.
And, you know, like it's just like when mining goes out to everybody where it's just like this, they're they're matching the utility case of like heating, using the heat for just regular sunken cost utilities.
(18:20):
I like I think that could really change the whole dynamic of mining.
of mining. So it's not just like, I'm this huge minor organization trying to, uh, you know,
compete on this, like, like mining is the most competitive prop. It might be the most competitive
business venture, like in the world. I mean, like you are, you're not, if, as soon as you're making
(18:44):
any margin, like other people are going to, you know, be crowding you out for it. So it's just
like, I don't know. I think, I think that like everything I'm, I'm a perfect pay with the tension,
you know, like these competing interests and incentives, like that's part of the
like opposite springs. Like, so people see tension and they, they're like, ah, conflict
(19:08):
and they get kind of worried about it. But like, I think that it's actually a good thing.
Let these things work out, let the incentives play out, let people make decisions and do that.
And I think that's ultimately why Bitcoin wins.
Well, to me, it's like we get to the end of the adoption S-curve and mining, you know, like nation states.
(19:32):
If the majority of your population and your banking and your Wall Street and it's like if everything is in bed with this asset, it becomes a national security interest to mine.
And so in my mind, it's like there will be a time when Bitcoin is mined at a loss monetarily, but it's, you know, it's still considered valuable and necessary.
(19:56):
So that's where like the end game is in my head.
And so to me, it's just like an adoption path to get there.
And we see the payout model with the four-year halvings.
And, you know, maybe there was some thought there that this is kind of a smooth way to transition into that system.
(20:17):
Yeah, I think with – all right.
The privacy war is basically ramping up, and I think mining offers you a blind, or basically it gives you privacy.
Those are KYC AML3 Satoshis going into your wallet.
(20:39):
So this privacy war is the next battle, we'll call it, because it's the next battle with all the powers that be.
And I see a different endgame.
I see the state shrinking as the currency falls because it makes everything more voluntary
and the state has to adopt.
(21:03):
You know, people are always going to need things provided that the government does provide.
So I think it stays alive, but it loses a lot of power when it loses the power of the dollar as a control vector.
but that's a long way off.
I would agree. I think that is truly a long way off.
(21:26):
And main reason being, because you're going to have other currencies,
fiat currencies collapsing into the dollar as time goes on and stable coins
become more relevant and prevalent. So that has to happen first.
But yeah, I think we got some good comments on this one.
(21:47):
One thing that I think about from the perspective of the argument that by including all of these spam or junk transactions, as some people would see them, this makes it so it's too expensive for normal people to run a node.
And for me, I just don't buy that argument because while the Bitcoin ledger is getting larger and arguably bloated, I don't think that it takes into account the cost of storage space coming down precipitously.
(22:25):
So I think if you look at it right now, depending on which implementation you're running, you should probably have a two terabyte drive for your node.
And as we all know, the cost of storage space and processing power and RAM is all coming down over time.
(22:49):
And so I just think that this hasn't happened quickly enough to actually make it so normal people cannot run their own node.
So any reaction to that?
Any arguments for or against?
Would love to hear what you guys think.
(23:11):
Or maybe I'm missing part of the argument.
So, I mean, would you guys, from what you've seen, would you say that that's the main argument for filtering?
If I understand it right, they didn't actually increase the block size.
So, like, the blocks are still the same, but the UTXO, what is it, the list or whatever, is that, I don't know, I'm not always up to speed.
(23:42):
kind of a retard with the technical
technical stuff.
I think the
principle in play is just like
you can't increase it at a rate
that actually threatens
the
decentralization of the network.
The chain is going
to get bigger. That is
(24:03):
guaranteed.
This is what happens when you add
blocks, but it's just
are we adding blocks
at the rate, you know, it doesn't actually decentralization.
And I think I agree with you on that point.
Like, I don't think anything has changed.
That's a threat in that sense.
(24:28):
MySpace is bugging out.
But AC, who's a longtime contributor and listener,
did post in the comments that this is the more important thing than not.
So hit that purple pill if you want to see what he's talking about.
But essentially that the fees that are added on top of the subsidy of 3.125 Bitcoin every block are ultra low.
(24:52):
And so maybe this is just a place for another reminder that you can consolidate UTXOs pretty cheaply right now.
But AC is saying that this may be a more important topic rather than core versus nots or nots versus core, that right now people are using layer twos or maybe, and I don't want to put words in his mouth so he's free to come up here, but also that people are not using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange.
(25:27):
that it seems that the big ETFs and Bitcoin treasury companies are gobbling up the Bitcoin.
And so any of that strike any of you or any of you want to chime in while we try to get AC up here?
(25:51):
I can go if my audio is good.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, I was going to, I kind of lost my train of thought now.
I always go through a dead spot there, but I apologize.
(26:16):
Yeah, so I think the big question is, is like, because nobody's using the on-chain network, does this pose a threat?
Like, are people worried about this? You know, I've seen fees really high and I've seen fees sustainably low this year.
So it's kind of interesting. But I do think we have AC joining us.
(26:38):
So we'll give him a second to come up here. But I'd love to hear his thoughts. Go ahead.
Real quick, it's it's good money driving out bad.
people are not going to make this their daily
currency when they can spend their fiat dollars and most people have not
adopted a 100% Bitcoin
(27:01):
allocation like myself so they're going to spend the
fiat.
AC, good morning sir. Can we get a mic check?
Yeah, how's it going guys? How do you have me? You're sounding great. Go ahead.
Awesome. Yeah, you know, Bob, my point with that image wasn't necessarily the fees, although that is an important factor. Really, it was the fact that I think it was seven or eight, maybe more blocks in a row were all mined by Foundry.
(27:37):
And I think that's kind of a big deal, something that we need to be concerned about. I know there's a push in the community for decentralized templates through ocean. I think that that's something everybody should at least look at and consider.
You know, the centralization of mining pools is really the big concern.
But to your point, Bob, as well, you know, the transaction fees, eventually we're going to hit this tipping point where the block subsidy, that portion of the reward that is cut in half every epoch, is going to go down.
(28:11):
And all of these miners are going to have to sustain operations via transaction fees.
And really, I think that we're getting close to a tipping point. And we see it as some of these big miners are starting to pivot more into HPC or high-powered computing. And I think it was BFP who mentioned it earlier about the pleb miners at home. And I think Neil mentioned the heat punks.
(28:36):
And really, we're getting to a point where I think a lot of these big centralized miners are going to start to move in a different direction for profitability, whether that's HPC or AI.
And really, it's incumbent on all Bitcoiners to run not only nodes, but do some pleb mining at home, whether that's something like a Bidax or an Apollo or something like that to contribute to the decentralized mining.
(29:03):
and then at the same time point their hash power towards something like an ocean with decentralized templates
to really get away from, you know, these big central, these large centralized miners,
these large centralized pools and really get back to the core and the ethos of Bitcoin, which is decentralization.
So I'll kind of land it there. Thanks.
(29:24):
Yeah, thanks for coming up and sharing that.
Anybody have any response?
Neil, you're emoting BFP. You guys like that?
Yeah, I just wanted to say that, you know, Satoshi Nakamoto was AI from the future meant to pave the road for AI adoption. That is all.
(29:46):
I want to say that these guys are clearly some of the most gifted engineers of, you know, crypto computers, money.
I mean, you name it, Satoshi himself.
(30:08):
and not to say the rest of them aren't geniuses too,
but they designed this from the ground up to, you know, thwart attacks.
And it's 16 years and every person in power that is protecting their fiat currency
(30:30):
is well aware and they're fighting.
They just don't know what to do.
So kudos to those engineers from the get-go.
Neil, my friend.
Yeah, I agree with just about everything that you're saying vehemently.
(30:51):
That's decentralization.
That's the whole principle.
That's what makes it all work.
So I was like, I see that that principle is just going to, you know, saturate in or permeate or whatever through all the different functions.
(31:13):
You know, even even like the idea of, you know, decentralizing hold yet the holders, the nodes and the miners.
And it's like, you know, that's what that's what orange pilling is.
That's what we're decentralizing the holders.
We're spreading it out.
And, you know, you make a new Bitcoiner, you know, I think, you know, when you get to them talking about, hey, you need to run your node, you know, and saying, hey, you need to be do your part and like solo mine, too.
(31:44):
Like, I think that's that's part of that progression.
I mean, I just can't even believe we only have like 20,000 nodes or something like that.
Like that seems like such a small number, you know, compared to how many people hold some Bitcoin.
And it's like, I don't know, it's kind of like your civic duty as a Bitcoiner to run your node and to make your voice heard through your actions.
(32:11):
And I'm not a miner yet.
I don't have any of that stuff up and running, but it's definitely on the list of stuff to contribute.
There only so much time that you have to dedicate towards everything But kind of tying that into that idea of like is are the etfs and all this other stuff kind of breaking bitcoin and it like to me i don even
(32:40):
i i can't get it out of my head that the formal functions of money are bundled together store
value medium of exchange unit of account so like they come uh it's take one or take all like as
long as people are using this money, I don't care if they're storing it, you know, to save
for later or if they're using it on chain, you know, for their daily transactions.
(33:04):
Like what's important to me is that you see Bitcoin and you treat Bitcoin like money.
That's I think as long as somebody has that principle and they're acting that out in their
life, I'm perfectly OK with however that whatever actions they're taking.
(33:24):
I think, you know, it gets me thinking about that AC is just sour.
It's like the, and I'm teasing, about the foundry finding so many blocks in a row.
I mean, man, they're just on a win streak.
It's kind of like the New England Patriots.
They, you know, won over and over again,
and there were just a lot of people who hate Tom Brady, and that's fine.
(33:47):
No, but I do think, to his point, that it is important that the network stays decentralized.
If it's not, then, yeah, it's one of the key tenets, right?
And so, BFP, I see your hand.
Go ahead.
(34:14):
Sadly, we lost him.
all right well that's too bad i'm sure you had something amazing to say texas toast
yeah um i mean to me it seems like the ocean trend is in the right direction
seems like they're gaining steam so that's that's a good thing um i like the uh
(34:38):
kind of bifurcation that we have with knots and core i think that's a good thing um and then
And overall, it just seems like weak FUD.
Like we're at a weird point.
They've run out of all the rest of the FUD.
So we got to dredge up some new stuff and make people get a little queasy in their tum-tums and see if they sell their Bitcoin and then make them pay for it.
(35:05):
So I don't know.
That's the way I'm looking at it.
Yeah, I like that description.
description i do think people just get bored especially in these sideways troughs um someone
should start keeping track of all of the garbage that uh has to go back and forth uh the reality is
that some people just don't like other people and they want to fight about it uh i think you know
(35:31):
in this space at least we try to laugh at ourselves and um be inclusive uh other than to
the shit coiners because they have no place here, but, um,
but in all seriousness, no, I do think that we, um, you know,
we try to make sure that people are learning things, but you know,
(35:52):
it's fun to, to kick these things around. I don't,
I don't want to jump to any conclusions on any of this stuff.
I like healthy debate.
I think a lot of times we get into these rooms and spaces and you hear the
same things and hopefully the topics that we're bringing up make you guys think now are we going
to give you conclusive answers no but i think we're all heading towards a certain a certain path
(36:17):
and a certain ethos and so hopefully you find some of these topics encouraging and um doesn't mean
you have to get in the middle of the debate by any means but it also shouldn't scare you out of
continuing to participate in the best money and the best monetary network. And so I think that's
(36:39):
maybe some of the risk that we find out there where people who are new come in and they start
seeing these big fights, these big debates, and lots of, again, engagement farming, hyperbole,
and it shakes people's confidence just because they haven't done all of the study and they don't
know necessarily how to think about these things. And so am I an expert? No. Have I been in the
(37:05):
space quite a while? Yes. I think that the network is incredible. And that's why I'm here trying to
educate people, having fun kicking these things around. And so as I zoom out, I just want to make
sure that people who listen every day and try to understand this stuff, realize, sure, we like to
(37:28):
a good time we like to make fun of ourselves uh but we do want to help encourage people to continue
on their stacking goals and to not get shaken out of their positions because
they're new and don't have the information so um yeah any comments on on my big diatribe there
(37:52):
go ahead bfp
I got cut off earlier
I couldn't hear Bob
but I was just going to say
we're crazy early
when it comes to the spread of this network
and you can just see it
when you try to orange people
how hard it is
and so this isn't spreading
(38:13):
like it's going to
at a certain tipping point
and that's when
you're going to see the miners
everyone's going to
it's going to click.
I don't know how it all works out, but it'll be fun to watch.
Neil, go ahead.
Yeah, I like what you're saying.
(38:34):
To me, you're talking about priorities.
We're putting first things first when it comes to orange-pilling people.
That's kind of the idea of someone being curious about Bitcoin
but scared off by the FUD because there's, you know, that's kind of, I guess, my, my,
(38:59):
how I kind of think about the whole privacy thing.
You know, it's important, but not primary where it's like, you know, if I could get,
you know, my uncle who's thinking about Bitcoin to, to just, to get into it, you know, to
understand what it's like, Hey, you know, you're being debased. You are being enslaved. This is,
(39:24):
this is really like the first and foremost thing. Like that's the problem. And you need to
protect yourself and your family from that. And he gets some ETF. I don't give a shit. Like,
I just want him to, to start on his path to actually start the Bitcoin journey and eventually
get further and further down. I wouldn't want him to be like, Oh, well I can't get right now.
(39:46):
I don't know how to get the non-KYC Bitcoin.
So I just might as well throw in the towel and just say, fuck it.
Like that's kind of like we can kind of err if we hit.
We're trying to orange pill people.
If we hit them with, you know, too complicated things or this or that, like the wrong.
It's also into the person.
You know, you're talking to what's going to work best for them.
(40:08):
But like we can kind of get a little over our skis and miss the easy low hanging fruit, which is just like you need Bitcoin.
Like you need it in your life. You need a money that doesn't, you know, let you just be controlled, you know, by those at the printer.
And it's just like, I kind of, I just, I want to develop, you know, kind of like almost in the army where we have these SOPs, we have these manuals where it's like, how do you walk the, you know, the 18 year old kid step by step to being like a proficient rifleman and part of a squad and working within the platoon?
(40:46):
Like, how do you how do you transition that? And it's like, well, you do it step by step by doing first things first and then second things and then third things.
And that walk, crawl, run type of approach. It's like that's kind of where I'm seeing like those are the products that I want to develop to help kind of standardize that orange pilling process where we're not asking too much of them when people aren't ready.
(41:16):
I mean, because even I'm still on my journey, like I have so much shit to learn, you know, and get involved in.
But I have to like, I'm trying to even figure that out for me.
Like, OK, what's the next thing that I need to learn how to do to be a better Bitcoiner?
But sorry, I'm just ranting.
No, you're good.
You know, I agree.
(41:38):
You got to teach them crawl, walk, run.
But if you've ever been to Navy boot camp and seen the remedial swim class, you can only teach somebody to swim so much without just pushing them in the water.
So there comes a point where it's like people are going to have to just immerse themselves and buy some and use the network because you can't understand it without doing that.
(42:03):
It's as simple as that.
So I've been having this conversation with family members and at our family company.
And, you know, I'm getting heat for having an allocation towards Bitcoin, any allocation.
This is coming from these Warren Buffett boomers that, you know, he's starting out saying it's against a fiduciary duty to have Bitcoin in your treasury in any allocation.
(42:28):
And so then I gave him a general AI response, you know, that refuting all his points.
This dude wrote out like an eight page email trying to refute Bitcoin.
So I just gave him slop AI that actually hit all his talking points back.
It took me 30 seconds on the car ride home without having to like sit down and, you know, drain my brain of this crap.
(42:51):
But then I got him to move the goalposts of, oh, OK, all these other guys have, you know, de minimis allocations.
Not zero, but de minimis. And so, OK, so it's not zero isn't the proper allocation.
That's the biggest thing to kind of understand and get these people to understand.
You are doing yourself a disservice. And I would argue it is, you know, you are neglecting your fiduciary duty if you don't have an allocation to this asset.
(43:19):
You know, what what is the percentage and all that? That's one thing.
but to say zero, I think you are wrong in a, in a huge way.
And I'll fight you for that.
The terror your kids must feel at bath time,
Texas toast, just throwing them right in the water.
My kids are the best swimmers around.
(43:41):
No, it's good. I do think it's true. Like we, you know,
some people put it a little bit more delicately and other people just have,
are short on patience.
And yeah,
I do think that some people really are missing the boat,
but the reality is that they're going to come to it at some point.
(44:02):
And so,
you know,
I just wonder if sarcasm is going to work with some people like,
okay,
you don't want any,
that's fine.
And that's where I think we get this have fun staying for mentality from
some people,
not me,
but some people.
For me.
Well,
Yeah, exactly. I don't necessarily think that's wrong. But if we are playing the long game, patience is required, especially with a lot of people who are, yeah, I think stubborn.
(44:33):
The thing is, if you understand, sorry, sorry to cut you off, but if you understand these people, these, you know, this type of American, you know, man that has done really well in this system and, you know, has his heroes of Warren Buffett and these guys, it's like they have to be humiliated.
(44:56):
They have to, you know, be shown that they're wrong in an aggressive way.
That's the only way they're going to get it.
And then if they, you know, the strong ones will actually, you know,
change their perspective, and that's the people we want.
And the weak ones will wither on the vine, and they'll be gone in a generation.
So that's the way I see it.
(45:18):
BFP, how big is your hammer?
I just wanted to say the thing that Texas Toast is talking about
made me think of Jack Mahler's when he had a rant.
I think it was on his last show maybe, but he's talking about allocation,
and he's like, 1%? 1%?
(45:40):
So you mean, you know, he's like Texas Toast.
He'll just come right out and say it, cursing and everything.
And he was ranting about, are you an effing idiot?
is like your 99% is going down in value
and your 1% is beating everything,
(46:02):
every asset there is,
and you have 1% allocated,
you're an effing retard.
It was great though,
but it made me think of Texas Toast.
It does remind me of the meme that says,
let's just ignore the best performing asset
over the last, you know, 16 years or of all time.
(46:24):
I'm not sure if I see hands.
Two screens here.
One has hands, one doesn't.
So I guess I'm going to go with no hands.
Other thoughts on this topic, guys.
I know we're coming up to the end of the show.
You guys would please retweet the space, repost the space.
I guess we don't tweet anymore.
But, yeah, we do this every weekday, 10 a.m. Eastern.
(46:46):
would love to have you join us again.
BFP, maybe that's a hand this time.
I don't know.
My screen's bugging out as usual.
No, it's not.
Sorry.
Awesome.
All right.
So, yeah, other thoughts on this topic?
Or we can shift back, guys, to this idea of, I mean,
(47:09):
I think we kind of rolled around into it,
which is for the people who don't have enough Bitcoin
and the people out there that are still trying to stack, do people feel broke?
I think when the time comes where maybe we get overheated, people, as their confidence grows,
(47:30):
because they're solely looking at price, maybe get overextended and tend to put too much in.
I do see a lot of people leveraging, trying to borrow unsafely against their Bitcoin
or against other things to buy Bitcoin.
And I wonder at what level is it irresponsible? So, you know, just to follow up on Texas Toast, on one hand, you have people who are vehemently against buying Bitcoin.
(47:55):
And then on the other hand, you have people taking maybe some undue risk, especially as the price runs up.
And so just wanted to see if you guys had any thoughts around borrowing, around any of these other things where people are just trying to stack as hard as possible and sometimes doing it in a risky manner.
(48:16):
Yeah, I mean, to me, a conservative approach makes sense when you're starting out.
Like that is completely logical and the way to do it.
And you really don't kind of get comfortable with the network until you're like two cycles in.
Honestly, like a good eight years, seven, eight years.
That's when you really I've noticed with talking to different people that have been around for a long time.
(48:39):
It like you know everybody felt broke probably until they were like two cycles in because they had an allocation Even these whales it like they had so much Bitcoin but they were unable to use it because the liquidity wasn there
And they knew that. And so they were kind of waiting and biding their time.
I'm sure they felt broke. You know, the first five, six, seven, eight years they were involved in the network to a large extent.
(49:09):
So it's an interesting thing, and you got to pay your dues.
If you're super smart, maybe you can learn some of these hard lessons that Bitcoin teaches you.
You can learn them quick, but definitely getting over allocated and over your skis and losing leverage and these kind of things.
(49:30):
It's like you'll learn quicker, but it also has the risk of maybe scaring you off and really wiping you out if you're not.
careful. So, yeah, it's that radical responsibility that you often share with us,
where people need to be holding onto their own keys, self-custody, which by the way,
(49:55):
we can help you with. If you need that guidance, please go to bitcoinveterans.org,
plug your information, get you plugged in with helpful resources to self-custody.
Um, but it's also this responsibility of just managing your money and your finance as well.
And, um, I wonder if, uh, what you guys think, I think we have just, uh, we lost VIP again,
(50:22):
but do you think retail is here and do you think people are going to start get getting overextended?
And what do you guys think about this whole thing with, even if you're not overextended personally, investing in companies like Strategy and others that are doing these creative leveraging strategies?
(50:46):
Does this worry you?
Do you think these are big potential problems when people are doing this?
Or what do you guys think?
not all at once i mean i'll respond if nobody else will but um yeah i mean it's it's just like
(51:11):
with anything um i think it's kind of healthy and shows some sort of maturing of the or integration
into kind of the wall street it's an embedding um i think it's going to be its demise in the end
but if you're intelligent and use a low percentage,
you might be able to get away with it and do well.
(51:34):
But make no mistake that anything that's paper Bitcoin
or on leverage is getting hunted.
So you just have to keep that in mind.
Neil, I see your hand. Go ahead.
Yeah, I mean, it just depends on what you want.
Like, what's your goal?
And for me personally, I just want to save.
Like they broke savings and I want to be able to save. So I save in Bitcoin. I self custody. That's what I do. I don't want any risk. I don't want to invest in Bitcoin. I don't want to because like that's not my area. I'm not an investor. I'm not an expert in all that financial engineering and craziness. So I don't mess with it.
(52:17):
If I was wanting to invest, I would invest in a treasury company because they are much better at the financial engineering than I am.
So I would outsource investing to them if I wanted to invest.
But I don't want to invest.
I just want to save.
I want to be sovereign myself.
(52:38):
I don't want any third-party risk.
I don't want to trust anybody.
I don't want anything like that.
So that's why I just, you know, I just save in Bitcoin.
But I mean, I understand that, hey, if somebody else wants to invest and take those risks and do that stuff, then I mean, I'm go for it.
You know, like that's just I just see them as distinct buckets, you know, like.
(53:05):
And I won't I won't cross pollinate those buckets in my mind like I have to keep them separate.
And I think if you ask yourself that and you keep those wires, you know, not crossed, I think you'll end up with where you want to go.
But if you think you're saving in Bitcoin and buying, you know, a bunch of like, you know, MSTR or something like that.
(53:25):
Well, like, I mean, that's not saving. That's investing.
You are taking on risk, and if you're unaware of risks that you're onboarding, you're going to get – if those roosters come home, it's going to shock the shit out of you.
But I don't know.
(53:47):
Yeah, I like how you framed that, that really if you dial it back – and I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it's – Bitcoin is a savings tool for you, sounds like.
And so all these other things do have counterparty risk.
And most people probably don't belong playing the game because really, if you are just trying to save, Bitcoin is the simple answer.
(54:15):
You just need to be disciplined and accumulate the asset based on your income and not take on risk by either lending out your Bitcoin and trying to get a yield or borrowing against it or borrowing against anything else.
And so it gets me wondering, you know, some people have mortgages that they could pay off with their Bitcoin holdings.
(54:44):
What are your thoughts on paying off, say, a 4% or 5% loan or maybe even lower, a 3% loan?
I think a lot of people got cheap mortgages back a few years ago.
What do you guys think about that?
If you had, say, like a 3%, 4% loan, 30-year fixed rate, knew it was locked in for at least as long as you're going to live there,
(55:07):
not that we're trying to give financial advice,
but how do you guys think about maybe taking money that you could use to pay
down that mortgage and buying Bitcoin or not selling Bitcoin that you have in
order to, yeah, have a,
have a bigger stack of Bitcoin and not pay down that, that debt.
(55:31):
How do you think about that?
nobody's up here with me anymore.
I'm sorry.
I'm walking around.
I'm getting freaking,
I'm at Sam's dude.
But yeah,
I don't know.
I,
I feel you there.
I'm personally not paying off my mortgage.
(55:55):
You know,
I,
I see it as a,
I'm going to play their system until it breaks.
So that's the way I'm looking at it,
But I can see the argument either way.
It would make me feel a lot better if I did pay it off.
But then every time I saw Bitcoin price rise, I would be thinking about it and regretting it.
(56:19):
So it's like, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Yeah, I think it comes back to what you said earlier about being in the space for a couple of cycles.
I think back to a vehicle that I purchased during the pandemic.
and now looking at how many miles have been put on that vehicle.
(56:40):
And sure, I need the utility of it, but man, that, I don't know,
I think it was like a $40,000 car that my wife drives around is now,
you know, it's in Bitcoin terms, we're talking almost a quarter of a million dollars.
(57:01):
So I do think it just takes time.
And so you have to weigh those things out. Obviously, we're not giving it advice, but we are saying these things are difficult decisions. Sometimes you got to take the risk off your plate and you'll sleep better at night. Other times, you just realize what asset you're holding. And it's better to take long term fixed rate debt and just keep paying on it rather than parting with something that's going to give you a far greater return.
(57:33):
So it's a game.
It's a thought process.
Jimmy, thanks for coming up, sir.
And good morning.
How's Mexico this morning?
Oh, it's doing great.
I got an hour long walk out in the desert and beautiful, gorgeous morning.
Yeah, it's funny.
As you brought this up, I was walking around and been working all morning.
And it just occurred to me, I'm using credit more than I ever have.
(57:56):
And ever since I got into Bitcoin for seven years, eight years, I've been using credit.
And before that, cash.
When I moved to Mexico, you don't pay for houses with loans.
Loans are not reasonable down here at all.
They're becoming more reasonable, but they haven't been at all.
And so you never borrow money.
And you get in the habit of just saving the money and buying it with cash.
(58:17):
I use credit cards for travel and things, but I didn't now.
I put off purchases all the time.
I bought a truck on a loan.
It's paid for by Bitcoin.
I can pay it off.
I won't pay it off because I just keep making money by not paying it off.
A 7% loan, expensive.
I have a 4% cash loan.
That, no problem.
Bitcoin, easily, I pay it back with the profits.
(58:39):
So, yeah, putting, see, my problem is I'm a Bitcoin maxi in the sense that I don't have anything else.
So I have to sell Bitcoin to live.
And I put myself in that position on purpose.
I'm not regretting it.
I still sell it a profit.
Guys get mad at you.
You're selling your sets.
It's like, well, yeah, some of us, that's all we've got.
And if you go there and you've been in it long enough, you're always selling it a profit.
(58:59):
But, yes, I put it off as much as I can.
And I just realized it bothers me because I don't like having loans.
I had a I bought an airplane with cash.
I just don't buy things.
You know, I used to.
I used to credit all the time in the States.
I played that game and I had very good credit rating.
But it's funny.
After getting into Bitcoin, I have borrowed more money and keep these loans going.
And it bugs me because I hate having payments.
(59:21):
But at the same time, I just kind of laugh because I think, well, I bought it at this.
And this is what I paid.
And I calculate all the interest, all the costs.
And I'm still way ahead of the game.
So, yeah, and even at a 7% loan, which is not a great loan.
But, yeah, I can see people borrowing.
I didn't borrow money to buy Bitcoin, but I borrowed money not to sell Bitcoin.
(59:44):
And, yeah, it's just putting off the debt.
It's at least a month because I use credit cards.
In some cases, I have long-term loans.
But, yeah, it's funny how it's got me into using more credit.
I hadn't even thought about it until now.
But I'm going to be soon paying off a lot of this stuff and just be done with it.
I don't like having it.
And I'm looking at Bitcoin loans, too.
(01:00:05):
I have friends that do them with Ledin and friends that do them with all different companies.
And it's enticing at the same time.
It's like, you know, I don't know.
But I will say this.
I started a construction project two months ago.
Yes, I have spent Bitcoin.
Yes, I have more money in fiat than when I started.
And every time I have built or bought something, you give it a few years, you look back and you go,
(01:00:26):
Well, basically, I got it for free in the sense that the profits pay for it.
So, you know, it's, you know, it's using your profits and, you know, it's robbing from my own future.
I know this, but I'm also 65 years, almost 66 years old and retired.
You know, it's like that's time for me to use my money.
It's not time for me to be stacking more.
But I don't recommend people borrow to play that game in the sense to buy it.
(01:00:51):
That's dangerous.
I know people that do trading on margin.
Oh, I've done it.
I've done all this stuff, but I do it for fun.
I didn't do it for an income.
When you do it for income, it's very stressful.
But yeah, anyway, it's kind of amazing how once you get into the Bitcoin standard,
you will find ways to not spend your Bitcoin.
It's harder and harder to get the sats out of my hands, obviously.
(01:01:12):
At the same time, I have good things to be spending it on,
like wealth or water and construction out here.
It makes a better future for me.
Where do you want to spend them?
It just becomes, but I don't buy frivolous shit and haven't for eight years.
I didn't even do it before, but I really don't buy clothes or anything I don't need.
You know, it's like, nope, don't really need it.
Pass.
(01:01:33):
It makes a savor out of you.
There's no doubt about it.
Yeah, good comments.
And I do think that it's, you know, you brought up a lot of good points, but one of the things that I think of often just as I relate to other people is, you know, as you get older at some point, when is enough enough?
Right.
And, you know, I think about this myself.
(01:01:55):
It's like, well, I'm stacking, but, you know, at some point you got to enjoy what you saved as well.
And so I had that idea well before Bitcoin as a saver.
It's like, you know, when can you stop saving?
Maybe never, but when can you enjoy it?
And at some point, a lot of people, you know, they're just on this 40-year retirement path, right?
(01:02:20):
They have a career and they save up and all of a sudden their life has gone by and they now are able to retire, which is great.
But I wonder for other folks, like especially Bitcoiners, where you're purchasing power is actually outpacing other folks, especially people with heavy concentrations of fiat currencies.
(01:02:46):
at what point do you start saying hey you know i need to live life little and enjoy some of this so
i do think there's a balance but uh we're going to wrap up the show guys do you want to say good
morning or yeah i guess it's good afternoon for you rico uh how are you uh doing this morning
um great thank you um i appreciate you guys face i'll have to listen to the recording i i forget
(01:03:07):
what time it is there but i'm excellent thank you for asking for asking yeah we'll do this again
tomorrow 10 a.m. Eastern time
and hope that you guys all join us.
A couple of announcements,
please do check out
bitcoinveterans.org
forward slash summit 2025.
Great conference,
November 10th and 11th.
Love to have you guys there.
(01:03:28):
If you have a topic
you want to speak on,
plug it in
and we will have a discussion with you.
Also looking for a producer
for the show
so that the opening music
isn't going in and out,
which I got a lot of DMs about.
So sorry about that this morning.
But, yeah, if you're interested in producing or for all the speakers who come up here,
you want to get in the back channel for the show notes so you can know what we're going to talk about.
(01:03:52):
I was messaging with Pubby this morning, and he unfortunately couldn't be here,
but did want to send a word of encouragement to everybody.
He's getting his teeth cleaned.
So we'll get to talk to him tomorrow.
And he said he'd join us.
So he's not mad at anybody.
He's just occupied.
So, but yeah, guys, that's it for today. Awesome Monday. Thanks for the discussion. We'll do it again tomorrow.
(01:04:20):
Any final words from anybody? No, it just looks like I'm getting a bunch of emojis.
So, yeah, we'll end it there. Want to wish you guys a great Monday. Make it a great day.
And remember, do not shitcoin.
It's like taking cough medicine to cure your hemorrhoids.
(01:04:41):
For people that use fiat currency as a store of value, we call them more.
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