Freedom Friday Ep. 278

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Thank you.

(00:30):
All right. Good morning, everybody.
Thank you for joining us for Bitcoin Veteran Spaces number 278,
where we talk about Bitcoin and other things.
My name is Bob Van Kirk. I'll be your host this morning.

(00:50):
We're rearranging the stage, getting some people up here,
but do want to thank you guys for tuning in each and every morning.
We do this each weekday, 10 a.m. Eastern.
And thank you again to Producer Eric for always making me laugh with music.

(01:11):
I'm not a rich girl, but I'm working on it.
Today is Friday, October 3rd, 2025.
We still have a government shutdown that we're celebrating.
And let's look at the time chain today.
We are at Bitcoin block height number 917,510.
With the Bitcoin price just above $120,000, which means you can still pick up 832 sets for each U.S. dollar.

(01:38):
A couple of announcements as we've been announcing.
The Bitcoin Veterans second annual summit is coming up fast.
Just over a month away, November 10th and 11th in beautiful Nashville, Tennessee.
Would love to see you all there.
Please visit BitcoinFeterans.org forward slash Summit 2025.

(02:01):
I think I forgot to mention that yesterday, the place where you can get tickets.
So I wanted to make sure I got that in today.
And then also, if you're in the audience and you'd like to come up and speak with us,
please use that microphone button in the bottom left.
You can request to come up on stage.
If you're not following the BV handle, myself or anyone else up on stage,

(02:23):
we probably won't let you up just, again, to avoid the knuckleheads that like to spam our nest.
And with that, oh, yeah, and also, guys, please do reshare the space.
We're going to be talking about freedom tech today, maybe some of the news
that hopefully will help you understand why we think Bitcoin is so important to people's freedoms.

(02:46):
and uh yeah also you can put a comment question snide remark or meme in that comment box in the
bottom right if you look down there there's a purple pill if you're driving you don't have to
look at your screen but uh again thank you guys all for joining want to go around the horn see how
our cast of characters up here on stage is doing this morning uh first we'll say hi to neil good

(03:12):
morning sir how are you today i'm doing real great and uh just a nice reminder to it's never
too late to play a win-win game yeah good stuff and uh puppy thank you so much for joining how's
it going ah good morning ladies and gentlemen uh doing great here yeah looking forward to

(03:33):
talking about freedom 100 freedom the varying degrees of freedom we think we have so yeah good
morning bfp how's it going good morning bob it's going pretty good can't complain
nothing but clear skies and beautiful weather yes and also want to say good morning to our

(04:00):
lovely producer eric how's it going this morning sir good morning bob happy to be here
I'm looking forward to the, we actually have a meetup here coming up this afternoon and looking forward to hanging out then.
That should be fun.

(04:21):
Yeah, definitely.
All right.
Well, with that, let's get started.
We have, yeah, the theme for today, freedom and freedom tech.
Actually saw this, was posted quite early this morning here in the U.S.
Maybe for some of you other folks that join us from across the world, this happened at a different time for you.

(04:43):
But Sparrow Wallet has actually released, and I'll try to put this up in the nest, but Sparrow Wallet has released version 2.3.0.
And I was thinking about how this was important for our freedoms.
We talk about privacy a lot, and it's cool because Sparrow has now integrated more privacy features.

(05:10):
And one of the privacy features that I noticed is this ability to send to DNS addresses.
And so for those of you who don't know, we don't want to get too technical so that you leave.
but DNS is domain name service.
And so essentially what it means is Sparrow now gives you the ability to send

(05:35):
Bitcoin to a domain name if it's properly set up.
So you can actually connect your wallet on the backend.
And this should make it a lot easier for people to send Bitcoin around to
others or to themselves.
And, you know, it kind of reminds me, like, the idea here is domain name services were built to make it easier for people to connect to websites.

(06:03):
So instead of typing in the IP address, a bunch of numbers, a string of numbers, so that you could connect to a website, they created these nifty things called domains.
And so domains, yeah, basically pass the traffic from a server IP address so that you can go to a website.

(06:25):
And this same service can now be used through Sparrow Wallet to send Bitcoin.
So it should make it easier if people can give either a domain address or an email address.
This has been around for quite some time, I think, on other services.
But Sparrow Wallet has it now, and I'm pretty excited about it.

(06:48):
Also, another thing I wanted to bring up and maybe get some thoughts from the panel.
Well, maybe people have thoughts on this.
Has anybody downloaded Sparrow and tried to play with this yet?
Probably not.
It just came out this morning.
But anybody want to chime in on that?
Do you guys think this makes it easier?
We'll get to some other news.

(07:09):
But just wanted to see if if you guys have any thoughts on this, Pubby, any thoughts on DNS address in Sparrow?
Oh, that's above my pay grade, sir. As you know, I just simply buy Bitcoin.
No, it sounds great. I just downloaded this morning. I haven't even looked at it now.
All good. All good. All right. You know, this story that came out a couple of days ago, I wanted to touch on as well.

(07:36):
the UK police seized five and a half billion pounds in Bitcoin.
And sounds like they want to keep it.
And so we talk a lot about self-custody on this space and want to encourage you each to take that step.

(07:57):
This what happened was and maybe some of you guys read this news,
But a Chinese woman between 2014, I think, and 17 stole all this Bitcoin from people.
And now it's worth five and a half billion pounds.
They finally caught her.

(08:17):
And, yeah, I wonder if this drives people to self-custody, one, from the standpoint of, you know, this woman stealing it.
but two, sounds like the UK doesn't want to give it back to all the victims.
There's a petition that you can sign to try to get your Bitcoin back,

(08:39):
but curious if anybody has any thoughts on governments keeping Bitcoin that they seize from criminals.
Go ahead, BFP.
Yeah, I have some thoughts.
I think it's comical how they had it for maybe 24 hours before they started thinking with their greedy little paws.

(09:06):
Like, oh, maybe if we just give them our fiat currency and we keep the Bitcoin, they'll be okay with that.
But no, to me, people aren't waking up to self-custody over this because this is not normie news.
We hear about it because we're in the know about Bitcoin stuff.

(09:28):
But I think the wake-up point will be when there's a bank trouble,
like back in the Silicon Valley Bank and the other one, I don't remember.
But when there's a bank trouble and people go and they want their fiat,

(09:48):
which there's only 3% of cash that represents all those digital dollars,
And even the cash is garbage because that was supposed to represent gold.
So we're in like an illusion of an illusion.
And like digital gold being Bitcoin is the only way out.

(10:09):
So it's a really warped version of what's going on today.
But that's, I don't know if that made sense, but that's what I, those are my thoughts.
yeah no that's good stuff and i i think um you know as you look at the uk you have uh
their economic secretary to the treasury back in may saying you know i don't think that it's

(10:34):
appropriate for england to have a uh strategic bitcoin reserve and yet now they want to hold on
to all this bitcoin they're actually uh they're saying that they're the third largest holder single
holder of Bitcoin at this point in time. And so, yeah, I don't know. People maybe put way too much

(10:56):
trust in these governments. And I think you're right, BFP. People haven't completely woken up
to this stuff yet. So I think it's got to get much more painful before people adopt this.
But interestingly enough
Oh go ahead Pubby

(11:16):
Oh yeah I was going to say
I've seen the headline just briefly
Has skimmed the article
And you know one of the things people say
Well look at people get caught
And the government gets their
Bitcoin
How do they do that
You're saying like you know
If you have your keys
They'll never get to it

(11:36):
And this is true
And so I don't know the back story
As far as what she forced
There have been times when the government has gone in and actually someone's still logged in and they're able just to grab it.
Now, as far as if you think if you got rugged or something, if you think you're going to claw back anything from a government like this, good luck.

(11:56):
I will say that the government is probably going to fumble the ball like they usually do and sell it well before they understand what the hell they have.
You see it time and again. But I don't know if you knew the backstory, what she you know, what she threatened to give up all the private keys to this.
and hand it over for a lighter sentence.
I don't know there, but it's just another reminder.

(12:18):
Be very, very diligent with what you do and don't get taken.
Don't get scammed in the first place.
And you won't have to beg the government to get back your Bitcoin.
Yeah, and if you think that this is only in the UK where they're trying to push out digital IDs
and, you know, that type of thing, you're wrong.

(12:38):
I mean, it's happening everywhere.
We can look at the news about Apple removing the ice tracking apps after they got pressure from the Trump administration.
The news about that doesn't really I don't think that's the important part.
I think for Bitcoiners, mainly what what this shows is that the government can pressure these companies to basically comply with whatever they whatever they want.

(13:07):
And so this is partially why you don't want to have your Bitcoin sitting on an exchange, because the government could petition or put pressure on Coinbase or others, whoever you're using as an exchange, to freeze your Bitcoin because you don't hold the keys.

(13:30):
And so this is why we – another reason we talk about self-custody.
So really in this, like I'm pulling this one out saying like the news about this, maybe that's interesting that Apple removed ice tracking apps.
But really the news here is the broader implication.
It's just a sign of what can happen when a government puts pressure on these big tech companies that we all trust with our stuff.

(13:58):
So whether it's information or monetary value like Bitcoin, something definitely to pay attention to.
Texas Toast wanted to say good morning.
Lev, hey, thanks for coming up.
I see your hand.
Go ahead, sir.
Yeah, just maybe an alternative take that I haven't heard like really talked about a lot.
You know, during the time where they were talking about UK selling the 60,000 Bitcoin and everything, they didn't do it.

(14:24):
But if they held it, you know, they don't give it back and they actually held it and Bitcoin does what we all think it's going to do.
Like they could be like a return to like superpower in Europe or something.
And I don't think a lot of people have really talked about that.
Is that is that something that's possible or what do you think about that?

(14:48):
That's all I got.
Yeah, I think it's a really good question.
and curious to hear other people's thoughts.
Initially, I think that this is not likely because, I don't know,
these people tend to fumble golden opportunities like this.
I mean, we've seen the government in the United States sell off Bitcoin.

(15:11):
They auctioned off all that Bitcoin back in 2014 to Tim Draper,
and he's become wildly wealthy, I guess, in fiat terms, if you look at it that way.
But also in Bitcoin terms, he's one of the largest holders and bought the Bitcoin for a great price, obviously.
And here we are. So I agree with you, Lev. I think it's an interesting idea.

(15:35):
I just don't trust that the UK, the powers that be, will make good, wise decisions.
Well, thanks a lot. I'm going to drop back down and listen like usual. Appreciate it.
Yeah. And if we go to a system that that is a Bitcoin standard, it's like these all the governments are inefficient.
They're going to and, you know, Infra brings this up all the time.

(15:56):
There were a twin deficit country. I'm pretty sure England is, too.
You know, this is they're they're inefficient.
And so on any sort of hard money standard there, as it stands right now, they're going to have to hemorrhage Bitcoin.
So, you know, it's going to be companies and people and things that are productive that actually will be able to accumulate.

(16:18):
Now, maybe a government can can, you know, siphon that off via taxes and whatever policies they do.
But as it stands right now, it's like they're not going to be efficient with it.
I think they're kind of hoping that it's just going to inflate to such a level that'll that'll keep them alive and functioning for a while.
But on any long time frame, I don't think it's going to work.

(16:44):
Good stuff. BFP, I see your hand. Go ahead.
Yeah, I think these powers that be, the people that are in place controlling the people, like the people in our upper echelon governments, are nimrods, nefarious men reassigning denizens.

(17:06):
but they're nimrods and they like to control and try and do things in their minds that are going to be good for humanity.
But they're all like totally fiat mindset.
So if you trust in the people that are in power throughout the world in charge of other people,

(17:32):
then keep your money in fiat because they're going to keep doing what they've been doing for
hundreds of years and the other people the people that are wisening up to what's going on
us i call them the remnants we're going to keep doing what we're doing and we're going to spread
the good word i hate to put it in almost like biblical terms but it's it's kind of becoming

(17:59):
that and so i don't know i don't know what to tell you just stick with uh stick with your knitting and
keep on stacking sats and staying humble
yeah i need to take up knitting for sure and make me calm uh neil go ahead yeah i i think one of the

(18:20):
things that the government's why they don't want to hold bitcoin is it makes them accountable uh
I mean, it's just like the Department of War, you know, can't pass an audit for decades.
You know, trillions of dollars is not accounted for.
And like that just doesn can happen with Bitcoin Like if they going to use Bitcoin as money like you can that doesn happen Like everything is you can be held to account And I don so I think that kind of a

(18:54):
they don't want to hold that hot potato. I think they like the money that they can just,
you know, basically print out of thin air. I think they like the money that they can just conjure up.
And then it doesn't really matter if their bookkeeping isn't so great or if they spend it on stupid shit.
You know, it's like there's no actual pain.

(19:14):
There's no actual accountability for them.
So I think that's probably another psychological kind of take on why they don't want a hard actual real money.
Because it makes them actually do their job and perform and deliver.
and that's not the business they're in.

(19:36):
So I don't know, just a couple ideas.
Yeah, thank you for that.
And Pubby, go ahead.
Yeah, can you imagine the U.S. government
doing the marshmallow test with a bunch of kids
for delayed gratification?
I mean, they are worse than a goddamn toddler.
And if you think they would wait more than two years
to just sell everything to pay for some bullshit,

(19:57):
that big one's going to be back out on the street
in the pledge hands in no time.
So don't worry.
There's no way in hell they're ever going to hodl through any type of real gain.
They're just going to get rid of it.
That's just my two cents, man.
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
And, you know, we can point to all these different news things of just, like, evidence.

(20:23):
And so it's funny because we all see it, and other people aren't looking through this lens.
and here we are talking about it into the void.
But we do appreciate you guys joining us each weekday, 10 a.m. Eastern,
where we riff on this stuff.
Did you guys hear about this person who lost $1.7 million in crypto

(20:46):
because a thief snapped a photo of the victim's seed phrase while in their apartment?
Sounds like they broke in, but yeah, why are people storing their seed phrases in inconspicuous places?
What do you guys think about this one?
Did you guys hear about this story at all?

(21:06):
And what are your thoughts on best practices for people to store their secrets?
I've heard about this.
I think there's got to be much more to the story of some common thief just goes in and notices, hey, what the hell are these 12 or 24 worms sitting here and getting a photo of it?

(21:29):
So I think there's more to it than that.
But, yeah, let's, you know, I don't know, let's tuck it away, put it in the freezer with the rest of your diamonds.
I don't know where people hide this stuff.
But I think there is more to the story there than someone realizing, you know, what crypto keys are going to, God, I hate using that word crypto.
till 30, like blockchain.

(21:51):
I was thinking the same thing.
I know.
As I'm saying it, I'm like, this is just, why even say it?
But you have to.
TXMC, I'm glad it wasn't Bitcoin because it doesn't matter as much.
But still, I think the whole thing with keeping your keys out is really quite silly.

(22:15):
I did put a story up in the nest as well. I think we're starting to see this whole idea of people pushing this narrative of folks to retail folks about how governments are printing us into oblivion.

(22:36):
oblivion. And we're starting to see it amongst, and we kind of from time to time on this,
I mentioned the boomers, but there's some boomers that probably aren't listening to this that have
no idea what's going on, but they're starting to push this out. And so if you guys look in the nest,

(22:56):
Mohamed El-Aryan, if you guys know, I probably mispronounced his name, but he's pointing out here
that even the banks are starting to say and coin terms.
And so they're just talking about, quote, unquote, debt debasement.
And so, you know, we've been screaming it from the mountaintops for a long time,

(23:18):
but we're starting to see maybe if you'd want to call it Normie land or TradFi or, yeah, the boomer class.
they're starting to push out this narrative as well,
which I think bodes really well for both gold and Bitcoin,
any non-sovereign assets.
Sorry about the background noise.

(23:38):
BFP, go ahead.
Well, I just want to say,
because you guys said that crypto makes you feel cringy.
And when I'm talking to most normies,
and I don't get a lot of conversations with normies about it,
But we start talking about Bitcoin inevitably, almost 100% of the time.

(24:01):
They start using the phrase crypto.
And I just stop them right there in their tracks.
I'm like, crypto is not Bitcoin.
I said, I'm like, Bitcoin is, sorry about my loud dog, but I said, crypto is, you know, Bitcoin has cryptography in it.

(24:21):
And I explain, like, these people are grifters, and they're taking the open source code of Bitcoin and making their own time to grift you.
But it just, you know, it drives me nuts as well as you guys.
Yeah, it's almost as bad as that dog barking.
No, I'm just kidding.

(24:41):
TXMC, thanks for coming up.
I'm curious to hear what's on your mind this morning.
That was funny about the dog.
yeah good chat I just wanted to add some of my thoughts
I think
I think the way a lot of conversations
frame sovereigns holding Bitcoin

(25:04):
or selling the Bitcoin that they have or whatever
kind of in my opinion frame it
wrongly like there was a question
earlier I might not have the question perfectly right but it was
Something along the lines of like someone asked, you know, if the UK held on to some Bitcoin, would that make them more powerful?

(25:26):
Would that make them, would that like return them to some kind of prominence on the world stage or something along those lines?
And it doesn't, in my view.
It doesn't at all.
In fact, I don't think it does anything at all for a fiat sovereign to hold some Bitcoin.
unless it's just an optics play because of a political narrative that's going on in the

(25:48):
country at that point in time. Maybe the voters want them to do it for whatever reason, and so
they do it to make the voters happy. But in mechanical and practical terms, for a fiat
sovereign, it doesn't add anything to them. It doesn't make them more creditworthy. It doesn't
affect their ability to issue bonds to fund themselves. It doesn't affect their ability

(26:11):
to print their own money.
Something Neil was saying was like,
I don't think they,
and feel free to correct me
if I misrepresent what you said,
but it sounded like you said something like,
I don't think these sovereigns want to hold it
because it would hold them accountable
because it would impose some kind of restrictions on them.

(26:31):
And I just don't agree with that at all.
I don't think it imposes anything on them at all.
It's literally just a thing that they hold on to
that they don't need.
What's most important for a sovereign government trying to run a nation?
The things that make them more powerful are obviously military power, but also the productive capacity of the nation, the amount of goods and services it produces, and whether or not those things improve the quality of life of its citizens by circulating and proliferating commerce and circulating income and just raising standards of living and raising access to things for people.

(27:12):
And so that's what's most important. And so when a sovereign holds Bitcoin or gold, for that matter, they aren't actually improving any of those things. And the only way they capture because of the way our monetary system works, the only way they capture any benefit from that is if they sell that asset back to the private sector.

(27:32):
The private sector gives them some money for it, which is really just kind of like a self-referential loop.
They're not actually gaining anything from it.
And so I think it's – that's – I think that's part of the reason why like Germany just sold the BTC.
They don't fucking care.
Who cares?
They didn't – it's just a trade and they don't actually need it because they just issue euros.

(27:56):
Like they just borrow and issue bonds and there's no limit to those things.
And whether they have Bitcoin or gold doesn't stop them from doing that.
I would be perfectly fine if the U.S. had zero gold.
I know people think they don't have any.
That's not the rock I'm trying to turn over.
I'm saying on paper, they have a shit ton of gold.
They have thousands of tons of it.

(28:17):
And so I'm just – I would be perfectly fine if they sold all of that back to the private sector and never held another ounce.
I'd be fine with them never holding any BTC because I would rather the private sector own those things.
I don't think it benefits governments at all, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
I'll wrap up there.
Yeah, I think it's a really great point.
I would love to hear from Pubby on this or other things too, but I really do think that this is a great point.

(28:43):
I was thinking about this actually yesterday morning.
I was on a walk and I was thinking how it really doesn't benefit you and me other than maybe number go up for Bitcoin.
if the U.S. government does actually decide to have a strategic Bitcoin reserve.

(29:04):
We're far better having it distributed amongst the people and using it as freedom money
and a way out from this debt-based Ponzi scheme.
That's essentially what it is.
And, again, I do think there's prominent people out there in the traditional markets.
We saw Chase, Citi, other banks come out, and they're all talking about this,

(29:28):
that debasement is occurring and there's no way to stop it.
Pubby, go ahead.
Yeah, obviously, you know, things are very American-centric
when we look just straight at the number-go-up part.
I'd like to ask TXMC on the value proposition of Bitcoin in and of itself
on other balance sheets as part of a way for final settlement

(29:51):
outside of the Swiss system, okay?
You have someone like, you know, when Russia got canceled, basically,
other countries that may want to do things that, guess what, the IMF or the U.S. is not happy about.
Bitcoin provides them a way to provide final settlement elsewhere outside of that system.
And do you think there's value there?

(30:11):
I think that, yes, there's some amount of value there.
But I think, like, even so, we're still not – we're not really seeing it used that way yet.
So there was a story that was going around maybe a year ago about how Russia was using Bitcoin and Ethereum and stablecoins.
All three were listed.

(30:32):
Of course, the Bitcoiners only ever mentioned the Bitcoin.
But it was Bitcoin, Ethereum, and stablecoins that they were using to help facilitate some sovereign transactions when they had been cut out of SWIFT.
And if you read into the details of the story, what it turned out was that those assets, the Bitcoin, the Ether, the stablecoins, were kind of the middleman in an attempt to swap to other currencies that were more difficult for them to get to.

(31:03):
And so it was kind of like a channel by which they still ended up using like rupees or rubles or whatever the fuck they wanted to use ultimately to finally settle the transaction.
And I think that we're going to be in that world for a while. Like Bitcoin provides some optionality and it can certainly it is it's certainly and you can exchange it for any other currency. And so I think it provides some usefulness there.

(31:27):
But I don't think fiat sovereigns really care that much.
They can find other things to transact in.
And like China is building an entire transactional network.
I forget what it's called, Search of the Sea.
It's alluding me right now.
That is like their own version of Swift.
And they're getting more and more of their trade partners to use it.

(31:48):
So like the monopoly that Swift holds is not even guaranteed into the future, just to consider that.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Hey, before we go to Bastion, and thanks so much for coming up, Bastion,
I wanted to see if Eric can get Texas Toast up here.
I'm having trouble adding him to the stage.
Maybe he's up here, but I can't add him as a speaker.

(32:09):
So if you can do that for me, Eric, I'd appreciate it.
And with that, let's go to Bastion.
Thanks so much for coming up.
It's been a while, sir.
Yeah, good morning.
Good morning.
I have a few minutes before my VA appointment.
I'm kind of dry.
I can't drink anything or eat anything before I go to my appointment.
I think a lot of you know that order.
I'm going to take a little more positive view on sovereigns adopting Bitcoin.

(32:33):
I don't think we're quite there yet, although we are seeing some countries lead in that area.
And I think that's an indicator of what's coming.
I think there'll be quiet accumulation in sovereign wealth funds, maybe some central banks for some hedging.
I think they're looking, you know, for a mix of currencies.

(32:57):
You know, they're not just going to go to Bitcoin and drop everything else.
I think Hal Finney foresaw the future when he said countries would use BTC as high-powered base reserve collateral.
I think we will see banking rail integration.
I think that needs to happen prior to any substantial sovereign accumulation.

(33:20):
We're seeing regulatory green lights.
We're seeing improved tax and accounting clarity.
This will bring pensions, insurance companies, and corporations in.
That'll be, you know, in my book, The Bitcoin Breakout, I call that phase two of adoption.
And I project sovereign wealth adoption late in phase two, early in phase three.

(33:41):
And I think countries are already doing this.
They're taking stranded energy and they're bringing Bitcoin mining to that stranded energy.
So that is something I think we'll see in the future where applicable.
And I think what you'll see is they'll start accepting Bitcoin for taxes and state payments as a way to accumulate Bitcoin.

(34:07):
That would be the easiest way for them to get it.
They wouldn't have to necessarily get funds to, you know, they don't necessarily have to turn fiat into Bitcoin.
They could just start accepting Bitcoin, which is something I'm always arguing with, not arguing, but suggesting to people who are asking why we don't have enough trade and peer to peer action going on.

(34:30):
My response is, well, start accepting Bitcoin at your business and give a discount and you'll start trading in Bitcoin.
I think also the crisis mode acceleration is going to be a big player in sovereign nations accepting Bitcoin.
They typically don't do things when it's good for them.
But when things are bad, they will open up and do take risk or do things they normally wouldn't do.

(34:56):
So I think it's just a matter of time before these sovereigns accept Bitcoin and it's coming.
It's just, you know, it's just not today.
Yeah, really good points.
I do think, I mean, you see news coming out all the time.
I think maybe we passed over it, but maybe it was Ohio this last week started and went live with accepting Bitcoin payments.

(35:21):
And then the news came out, I think it was yesterday or the day before, Sweden.
The lawmakers there are talking about creating a strategic Bitcoin reserve for their country.
And so, you know, as much as we poke fun at these people, it is, I think it's a super interesting topic.
And it's crazy to see how this is all, you know, if you've been in this for any length of time,

(35:47):
it is pretty crazy to see all of what's going on at the pace at which some of these different entities,
sub entities, companies, governments, quasi government entities are adopting this and at least talking about it.
And so I think it's go ahead. Yeah, there's an education period here.

(36:08):
We need to let them get educated where we're ahead of them.
We we control. I'm talking about as plebs, as individuals, we control around 70 percent of Bitcoin.
I like that number. I my whole goal and the reason I wrote my book,
the Bitcoin breakout was to get that in the hands of the plebe so they could understand what Bitcoin
is and what it isn't and why they're not too late and why they need to start converting a certain

(36:32):
percentage of their income every month into Bitcoin for the future because it is future money.
It is a digital monopoly. All you have to do is look at the internet, look at social media,
look at cell phone. You look at those adoption curves. By the way, all of those technologies,
all those network communication technologies experienced a 50% growth within a single decade.

(37:00):
That's S-curve acceleration.
And since Bitcoin is also a communications network, it's a monetary communications network,
I project that we'll see similar growth with Bitcoin and that we're right on the edge,
We right on the precipice of that 10 year period where we going to see substantial growth and we going to see that growth in I believe in institutions first which is happening right now And as the institutions come in that set the stage for the sovereigns to adopt next And that what I call phase three

(37:39):
of adoption. So I think it's just a matter of time. I think we're on the doorstep. I think
we're seeing it happen right now. Is it going to be a bit sloppy? Is it going to be a bit disjointed?
Yeah, it's not going to be super smooth.
But game theory tells me once a certain percentage adopt, the rest will simply follow.

(37:59):
Yeah, and I think we're like, you know, what you're referencing, the sloppiness is like volatility.
And I don't know, I really have gotten used to the volatility over the years.
It's made it a lot more interesting and a lot more fun.
TXMC, I see your hand.
Go ahead.
But yeah, I wanted to add on the topic of Bitcoin for taxes.

(38:23):
I don't think that at the federal level that is ever going to happen.
And it might happen for a state.
But the reason why it's different is because states are not issuing their own currency that they need to see circulate.
And so like there are four functions of money.
Three of them are store of value, unit of account, medium of exchange.

(38:46):
And the fourth one is a means of state payments.
And for the longest time, like for literally over a thousand years, what the state determines
people must make state payments and pay taxes, whatever the case may be, has been a huge
determinant in which things circulate as money.
Now, if the state loses credibility, if its ability to enforce rules is no longer more credible than private agents, like if people just no longer give a fuck what the state has to say, then what it tells people to circulate might not matter so much anymore.

(39:22):
But that's not the world we live in today. We live in a very different world where the state has significant control and credibility, and they probably will for a long time. And it is not in their interest to accept anything. We're going to talk about the U.S. here because I'm an American. It is not in the U.S. government's interest on any timescale to accept things other than dollars for tax payments.

(39:47):
And so until the state loses the ability to enforce those rules, I don't think they're going to entertain anything.
You also can't pay in gold.
You can't pay in anything other than dollars.
And if you want to use some gold you have to pay your taxes, you have to sell it first.
And that's a taxable event.
It gets you twice.

(40:07):
And so that is set up that way for a reason.
Like if the state of Ohio or somebody like – or some state decides you can give us Bitcoin or gold to pay state taxes, that's completely up to them.
They aren't the federal government.
They aren't a sovereign issuer of currency.
And so it is a little bit different for them because they can then put that stuff into their coffers and choose to sell it later for dollars because that's what they ultimately need for cash flows within the state.

(40:38):
So I just think that is an important thing to understand. Like, I'm not trying to shoot down anyone's idea that maybe in the future it could happen. I'm just saying I don't think it will unless you are proposing a future where the U.S. government can no longer credibly enforce its laws, at which point we have a much bigger problem than what we pay our taxes in.

(40:58):
Yeah, it's a delicate balance. And I really like that point that they're going to continue to want dollars.
And it is really, I think this is a fun topic, but we have this problem in spaces sometimes where, and hopefully not this space, but I listen in on some spaces and people start going down these paths.

(41:28):
and extrapolate things and say, well, if state governments are doing it,
then countries must do it.
And I think that that's – I tend to agree with UTXMC where we probably won't see that
unless there's some collapse of the actual system.
And I don't think any of us want that.
So this slow bleed up is really quite healthy.

(41:51):
And I'll say I think that a major financial catastrophe, I'm of the opinion that a major financial catastrophe, while it could happen, I think that they've figured out how to basically keep the ball in the air.
And that is to print more money and to issue more debt and do it to oblivion.

(42:16):
And so I think oblivion doesn't come for quite some time, but it'll be interesting to see that messiness or sloppiness, as Bastion calls it, along the way.
Because for us, it's really good.
I think, again, I'll say it again.
I think it's really good for us to have the ability to have this way out with Bitcoin.

(42:40):
And we want as many people to do that as well as possible because money printing is stealing your life force and your time and your energy.
And so I think, yeah, we need to stick with it.
So any other comments on this?
I do want to shift topics.

(43:00):
And maybe it actually is in line with the topics that we've been talking about.
Bastion kind of mentioned it with just this maybe freedom that all these technologies,
like with the adoption curve that you see and the freedoms that this technology gives us.
I was actually, I don't know why I do this, but sometimes I go back and listen to some of the,

(43:25):
I would say, founding fathers of some of these technologies and just go and remind myself of the changes
and what people thought about things.
And so I was listening the other night to a Steve Jobs interview,
and he was talking about the personal computer
and describing some of the different attributes of what he saw the personal computer could bring to people.

(43:52):
And so I have this 18-second clip that I think might help us with freedom or this freedom conversation.
And so I'm going to play that right now.
Give me a second.
And it is very decentralized.
It's very democratic.
And it's something that completely is almost the opposite of the 1984 conception we have.

(44:15):
And what we're finding is it is enriching people's lives.
It is freeing people to do things like we think people do best.
So thoughts on this.
I mean, he brought up decentralization for the personal computer, and we know Bitcoin's decentralized.
It's a great theme.

(44:36):
What, if anything, does that make you guys think about, like, that it all started, you know, back in 1981 and prior to that even with the personal computer?
We saw the adoption curve ramp up.
We've seen it, like Bastion was talking about, with mobile phones, the Internet, all of these different technologies.
Bitcoin still has a long way to run

(44:57):
Just curious
Anybody have any comments on that
Or any thoughts on
The freedom technology that Bitcoin is
And the adoption curve that we'll see
Or we've already seen but we'll continue to see
We got shyness this morning
Go ahead

(45:17):
No good I got a crying baby
In the background so I'll be brief
But, yeah, I mean, it seems like it was pretty spot on.
Okay.
Yeah, the technologies are unlimited.
I'll let somebody else pick it up.
Yeah, you know, the first thing that comes out of the gate with,

(45:38):
one of the first words is this decentralization.
And a lot of these technologies, this is how it all starts.
But they can't handle that.
They can't handle people that have something that's decentralized.
And there's always a push that's how can we centralize this.
And Andreas Antonopoulos did a great job when he's comparing Bitcoin and what it represents as an Internet.
And he would take it to these companies.

(45:59):
And what do they say?
Well, we wanted to do this.
We wanted to do that.
And before you know what he says is basically you don't want this.
What you want is an intranet.
They just want something that is centralized within their own company and can't reach out for true freedom.
And you're finding this out.
And this dovetails it right in with this digital ID.
You know, everything you had in your life was decentralized, okay?

(46:23):
You had a bank.
Guess what?
You had a doctor.
You had your taxes, right?
You had ways that you would have transportation.
So what do they do?
Let's have more control.
Let's centralize all of this bullshit, which is basically somebody's entire life, and we're going to put it in one location.
One location, medical, everything is to be one button and you're done.

(46:50):
I think it's interesting to see that everything that starts out, the good idea theory comes down and everything is decentralized.
Before you know it, it's all tied and you're stuck, man.
Your entire life in one location is what it comes down to.
And these are the warnings that a lot of people here in Bitcoin are putting out.
Yeah, good stuff.
Go ahead, Bastion.
Yeah, I'm going to kind of twist the question a little bit and rephrase it as what are the freedoms that Bitcoin network, the decentralized Bitcoin network offers, if that's fair.

(47:26):
And this is straight out of my book.
Number one, it's got the you have the freedom from debasement.
You know, your fiat is going to erode.
Your savings is going to erode through money printing and negative real yields.
You know, Bitcoin has a 21 million fixed cap.
Scarcity can't be voted away.
We get to break away from Cantillion privilege.

(47:50):
There's a real problem in this country with Cantillion privilege.
And we even hear it on the end.
No one, please don't take offense.
But we hear this a lot with what I call the Bitcoin boomers of X,
who many are cantillionaires.
And all they're really interested in from what I can hear is how can they use Bitcoin

(48:10):
to keep that cantillion ball rolling?
Do you want to explain the cantillionaire, what you're referencing just for people who...
Yeah, it's from an economist named Cantillion.
And what he said is who touches the money first benefits the most.
So those who have access to the fiat fake money and are closest to the printer get to use the value of that money before it's debased.

(48:37):
It takes time for it to get out into the market, for it to debase the currency and steal labor from the working class.
And that's one of the things Bitcoin gives freedom from.
So that's important.
Bitcoin gives you freedom of time preference.
um you know it's austrian economics you get to to have sound money it lowers your time preference

(49:02):
you can plan for decades instead of planning for a few months or a year uh this helps families and
individuals uh save without being forced into speculation aka the freaking stonk market which
I'm just sick and tired of hearing about how important the stonk market is and how we have to keep debasing the currency.

(49:26):
So everybody who has stonks and by the way, we're talking about a tiny percentage of the U.S. population that's invested in that market.
It's not the everything that it's made out to be what it is.
It's what keeps the fiat floating and it's what keeps our current government floating.
That's why people care about that market so much.

(49:47):
We get freedom of transaction.
I think you've all seen during COVID and the recent waves of censorship that, you know, we don't have to worry about the state, the bank or the corporation blocking or reversing our payments.
You know, this connects directly to the cypherpunk ideal, which I don't hear enough discussion of the cypherpunk ideals in Bitcoin circles and X, in my opinion.

(50:13):
I think they're really important to understand who these people were, what their ideals were, what the whole point of peer-to-peer sovereignty but beyond gatekeeping was about.
Bitcoin gives us freedom and capital flow.
This is why I believe we're going to see an S-curve because we're going to see capital migrate towards the hardest money.

(50:37):
And that's Bitcoin.
So get ready for the S-curve.
Um, uh, freedom and capital flow also, uh, makes government compete for Bitcoin rather
than citizens competing for weak money.
So I think, you know, part of this sloppy transition will be governments will compete

(50:59):
for Bitcoin.
They will want Bitcoin.
Is TX correct in saying they want us to use their fiat?
Absolutely.
It's going to be a struggle.
It's going to be an internal battle.
They'll be pushing the fiat as they're trying to accumulate Bitcoin at the same time.
That's why it's going to be a sloppy, messy thing.
All transitions like this are.

(51:21):
And finally, we also get freedom from surveillance banking.
You know, what's this KYC AML?
If you're accepting KYC and AML as normal and natural, well, you're just a happy slave.
You know, we need a digital escape hatch and that's what Bitcoin is.
Also other digital products that are out there that help make Bitcoin from pseudonymous to anonymous.

(51:49):
And then finally, we have the freedom to build our own future.
Eventually, we'll enter a time where industries emerge atop the lightning and Bitcoin settlement network.
network. You know, innovation won't be throttled by credit rationing or central bank capture. I
mean, look at how distorted our markets are because they turn the money on, they turn it off,

(52:14):
they turn it back on again. And it's important for builders to have a neutral, incorruptible
base layer so they can plan. So, you know, these are the freedoms that we're getting and they are
connected to the computer and you can go, you can go much further back than Apple.

(52:36):
I mean, you could take this all the way back to Alan Turing and the first state machine
and the first concept of the binary one and zero, because that's how I see Bitcoin.
I see Bitcoin as the binary, as one and zero.
And Bitcoin is unique because it's the first set of ones and zeros that can't be reproduced.

(52:59):
you know i think like stocks get a bad rap sometimes in these conversations like
so like the u.s stock market like if you were just by the index you're owning some of the most
profitable and successful companies on earth many of which are very rich with positive cash flows

(53:24):
contrary to a lot of the Bitcoin treasury strategy companies we've been seeing.
But like, if you weren't a Bitcoiner and all you did was put your surplus into the stock market
every month for the last 15 years, like you would also be doing pretty fucking well. You would be
beating out the money supply. You would be winning out over debasement. Bitcoin is not the only way

(53:49):
to do this. Is it a very effective way? Absolutely. I own it for that reason. And I think other people
should too. But I don't, I just have to push back on this idea that it's like the only thing we can
do and that like stocks are horrible. So for the last 10 years, the money supply as measured by M2,
you could use other things. You could use the base money. But if you use M2, the 10-year average

(54:12):
growth for M2 is about 6.5% per year. Yeah, it grew 40% in one year, but that's not the
average. The average is about six and a half percent. And over that same period of time,
the total return of the S&P with dividends included is 14 percent. It's more than double that. So like
you're doing fine if you buy stocks. Should you probably own some Bitcoin? Definitely think you

(54:36):
should. But it's not the only choice. And there's certainly some merit to having a bit of diversity,
not just owning things that move with the stock market like Bitcoin tends to do.
It is it's kind of Nasdaq beta historically.
So it's probably good to also own some gold.
I own gold myself, maybe even a little bit of silver, maybe some like platinum and other

(54:59):
things.
It's I'm just putting these ideas out there because I think like we kind of forget that
the stock market is actually doing pretty well.
Do does every American own it?
No.
But more people own stocks than own Bitcoin, first of all, and household equity exposure is extremely high now compared to like their total assets.

(55:22):
So a lot of people are exposed to the stock market and they are beating out the debasement of the currency on a trending basis.
So I just want to add those things in here.
Yeah, two points I'll make.
I like the discussion because I think it's good for all of us to hear some of these things.
I think part of the issue, and maybe I don't want to put words in Bastion's mouth, is that the, I would say the mainstream media tends to, I think, criticize Trump and his administration in a way that makes people say, oh, well, they're just going, you know, he just cares about the stock market.

(56:03):
And so this is just a criticism of him.
And so he going to do everything in his power to try to you know basically make the fed do what he wants and bend the knee and put somebody in there who going to essentially pump the markets And so I do think that like it an interesting topic
because, you know, all the things you laid out TXMC, but I do think like some of the reason that

(56:29):
people have this negative thought towards the stock market, or at least kind of want to pile
on is because of mainstream media. But I do think, you know, I come from traditional finance.
And so, you know, I think about these things as well. I actually don't participate in the stock
market personally, but I do get why people, you know, look at it as something to diversify.

(56:57):
Mastian, do want to give you a chance to respond as well. And then maybe we can go around the horn,
see if we have final thoughts for this Freedom Friday and wrap it up.
But go ahead, sir.
So great space so far.
I'm really enjoying TX here.
I'm going to have to go after this.
I got to get to my appointment.
But here's my thoughts on the stock market.
Number one, you know, 10% of U.S. households control 89% of the stock market.

(57:21):
1% alone controls half.
The bottom 50% of Americans own about 1% of all stocks.
So it's not really getting to the people.
My concerns is that Main Street pay the price for the stock market because the wealth effects are engineered backwards.
The Fed props up equities with cheap credit.

(57:42):
Insiders, they lever up.
Valuations detach from reality.
When the bill comes due, they don't liquidate their mansions or their art.
They liquidate our futures.
Inflation covers their bailouts.
Higher taxes services their debts.
Wage stagnation as capital flees into speculation instead of production.

(58:05):
Housing is distorted as an asset class rather than a shelter.
So Main Street gets the inflation, the layoffs, and the foreclosures.
Wall Street gets the bonuses.
The cost to protect the stock market is we don't have people with homes.
We don't have marriages.
We have a population collapse, and our society is dying.

(58:29):
It's just it's just it's it's not a system that's really working.
And, you know, investing in the stock market, I don't believe is the real answer, you know, and that's just my opinion.
I think that's valid. I just like my my only like pushback is that Bitcoin and the stock market are pretty sympathetic to each other.

(58:53):
And so what pumps the stock market also pumps Bitcoin.
And so it's like you could own one or both of them.
It would be fine.
You're right that most – the wealthy own the majority of stocks.
The wealthy own the majority of all assets.
The stock market is just a distribution of those things.

(59:13):
Bitcoin is correlated with a bunch of stuff on and off for the last 16 years.
But I think it's also always broken that correlation because it was never a causation.
No, I mean, it's pretty it's pretty tied to the risk cycles, the credit cycle, the liquidity cycle.
It goes up on a trending basis when equities are going up.

(59:36):
It goes down on a trending basis when equities are going down.
And it's pretty bit it's been pretty consistent, like since 2011.
The beta is very high.
So like the amount that it goes up and the amount that it goes down and the rapidity with which it responds to changing conditions is different.
But the big picture, zoom the fuck out, put them on a chart together, look at the directional moves over like months and quarters.

(01:00:04):
They move pretty much in lockstep with each other.
And so they all represent, generally speaking, liquidity, the availability of liquidity and the health of risk appetite.
And so I think there's nothing controversial in saying this, by the way.
Like Bitcoin being limited in supply is what makes it outperform stocks.

(01:00:27):
But the fact that it's correlated generally to risk appetite, I think, is perfectly fine.
And it makes it a very good investment asset.
If it wasn't correlated, if it was inversely correlated to risk appetite, it would not have done what it's done the last 15 years and no one would be talking about it because most of the time is a risk on appetite, like an environment.

(01:00:51):
So it's just careful what we ask for, for it to be uncorrelated because it might be way less interesting if that's the case.
Pubby, go ahead.
Yeah, this is really interesting.
And I just, you know, not the cherry pick number, just again, the five year for the S&P.
And, you know, is that they're 84 percent.

(01:01:12):
And I think TXMT had the numbers of inflation adjusted at 8.9 percent.
And this is where we are basically for people.
And let's say half the country, I mean, they're not even involved in the stock market.
But this is where you are for any type of return is you got to put everything into the stock market for 9 percent.

(01:01:34):
And most of that is tied up in someone's retirement account where there's fees involved there as well.
Over the same time, Bitcoin's at 1,000%.
You guys can run numbers on that.
I think it's easier for folks just to get into Bitcoin.
But yeah, between the precious metals, the stock market, the point is that people have to take a lot more risk for any type of real return than they've ever had before.

(01:01:59):
And that's the sad part of it all, man.
I agree.
Just to get a 9% return, you've got to be in the stock market for this.
So, yeah, I'll land a plane there.
One thing I do want to point out, and I point this out in my book, that the difference between stocks is stocks are based on earnings and cash flow.
That's where their value is derived from.

(01:02:22):
I believe, and I put this in my book, The Bitcoin Breakout, that Bitcoin is valued on scarcity and network effects.
and that places that outside of legacy models.
I personally don't believe that any legacy models
will be able to predict Bitcoin long-term.
There's a lot of different models out there

(01:02:42):
and people are reverse engineering all those models
by saying, look, they match up, they match up.
They might match up for a period of time,
but is there grounded theory connecting the two?
And I don't think there is
because, you know, Bitcoin is the only thing that does not comply with the power law model,

(01:03:05):
where when prices go up, so does production.
So, you know, I don't think Bitcoin will continue to correlate with literally the money supply,
stock markets, or any other legacy asset.
I think they'll break completely free based on absolute scarcity and network effects.

(01:03:27):
And what I mean by network effects are participants.
Because as we get more, the reason I want to see more individuals involved is because when you're looking at networks, for example, with cell phones, what made the cell phone valuable was not the phone.
It was not the phone in your hand.
It was the network and the number of users or participants in the network.

(01:03:51):
Because in the early days, I sold car phones in the 80s when I got out of the Army, when there was less than 1% of the population using a car phone.
One of the problems you had in those early days is while you could absolutely call someone at home on their landline, there wasn't a lot of other people with car phones that you could call.

(01:04:12):
You weren't making a lot of car-to-car telephone calls because there wasn't enough network participants.
So this is a difference between legacy assets and Bitcoin.
I do think there will be a divergence.
Go ahead, TX.

(01:04:33):
Sorry, Bob.
No, go ahead. That's fine.
I don't think I agree with what you said it's valued on.
Like the fact that it is scarce definitely contributes to some of why it is valuable.
But like the price is set on the margins and most of that is speculators.

(01:04:53):
Like a bunch of people, most of the people who are adopting, quote unquote, adopting Bitcoin these days aren't even buying it to take it into self-custody because they want access to the network effects of users spending BTC on chain.
Most of them are buying it like through their ETFs or like just to have it sit on fucking Coinbase because they want the price to go up so that in the future they can sell it for dollars for a higher amount.

(01:05:18):
And so like the network effect argument kind of rings hollow for me because we are trending toward it not being used as a sovereign payments vehicle by most people, but rather just as an investment vehicle for number go up purposes.
And that is fine.
That is actually totally fine.
And I think it's it's OK to just accept that for what it is. But I don't think it's it's valued on its scarcity. Like the argument about like, yes, production doesn't go up when demand goes up, but also it's not consumed like wheat or oil. Like every unit is eternal. It can trade forever.

(01:05:57):
forever. And so I think that's just not like, yes, there is a total limited supply, but that
doesn't actually come. It's also being lost. It's also being lost every single day. Yeah,
I know the supply is net deflationary. So that is the total quantum of Bitcoin in circulation
doesn't really come into play in setting the price on a day to day basis. Most of that is just the

(01:06:22):
liquidity in the order books and who's pushing stuff around on a day to day basis, which is
mostly traders. And so I, I don't know. That's what I have to say.
I like the, I like the discussion.
Great place guys. I do got to roll.
Yeah. No. Hey, Bastian, I really do appreciate it.
And I think this is great. Honestly,

(01:06:43):
I like these debates because it makes you think and I don't think anybody's
like 100% right,
but it should hopefully cause everybody in the audience to think.
And so really appreciate the discussion. BFP wanted to give you a chance,
and then we will wrap it up for the day.
Yeah, just real quick.
I like that discussion.

(01:07:03):
That was great.
Bastian, I think, is more spot on because I think he's seeing the future.
And, you know, TXMC, I see your argument, but I went through that phase,
that exact phase you're talking about where people are buying the ETF or buying the –

(01:07:24):
I bought Bitcoin on Coinbase back then, and I traded it like a stock.
That's the early phase of people adopting Bitcoin,
because I didn't figure it out until 2021 when I actually bought it,
learned about self-custody, all this stuff.
So I don't think you're seeing the forest through the trees.
Bastion, I think, is more spot on, but that's just my two cents.

(01:07:46):
And thank you both for the discussion.
Yeah, no, I enjoyed the discussion as well,
And I I'm just sharing ideas, you know, if I disagree with someone, it's not a personal attack or anything.
But like what I disagree with on what you said, BFP, is like I don't think it's like there's some kind of time delay on adoption where suddenly people get it.

(01:08:09):
Then they become self-custody maxis or whatever, because if that was the case, then we would not be trending in the total opposite direction, which is people are not taking it into self-custody.
We're actually like increasingly a minority of Bitcoin owners, people that have all of it in their own personal possession, manage their keys, fuck with the different wallets and stuff like we are a minority.

(01:08:32):
And increasingly so as this becomes a larger asset and TradFi gets more of its tendrils into it.
Like look at look at who has been absorbing most of the supply in the last two years.
It's not sovereign individuals.
It's corporate treasuries.
It's ETFs and shit like that, sovereign wealth funds.

(01:08:54):
These are not individuals holding BTC because they want access to the network effects and because they see its value as a sovereign transaction vehicle or because they want to opt out or whatever the case.
And this isn't me being bearish.
I feel like I'm just being practical.
It's not that I refuse to see the future.

(01:09:14):
I would argue that I am identifying the current trend and projecting it forward.
I see what you're saying.
The trend is your friend until it ends, though.
And you're just seeing a bigger macro when the rug pull happens.
It could be nationalization of MSTR or people gobbling up, you know.

(01:09:40):
I'm talking about these big corporations.
How would nationalization of MSTR change this?
And I don't mean to pick on you.
I just want to dig into this.
Because if you disagree, I want to find out why.
When governments start to fight because it's taking off too much and they start implementing tools to, you know, or like it could be anything.

(01:10:01):
I mean, I don't have the crystal ball like I don't know what's going to happen, but think of FTX.
Think of all the different cycles we go through, and this is just getting like bigger bubbles, bigger bubbles, bigger bubbles.
And that's what I see happening.
I mean, you're not going to be able to predict when it happens or how it's going to happen, but it's going to happen where more and more people are figuring out what's going on.

(01:10:29):
And I think that it's short-sighted to think the trend of it going to a store of value is going – because I see people transacting in it.
I mean, just look at David Bennett's Pleb.
Anecdotally, there are always –
There's people.
Right.

(01:10:49):
Anecdotally.
And they tend to find it.
That's the beginning.
Twitter is great for bringing people together.
There you go.
But what I'm trying to say is that it's not.
You're making my point for me.
These are anecdotes, though.
Like, this isn't the direction of travel.
And so, like, when you suggest something like FTX as an example, FTX didn't increase people's desire to hold Bitcoin in self-custody in an aggregate way.

(01:11:15):
because all the all the yeah i think it did mount gox did it on a small scale then because that's
what happened to me i didn't self-custody i didn't even know what self-custody was that is again an
anecdote like that's you that's you i know but anecdotes make up the macro no i think it's
important to separate what happens to you from what is happening to the majority we are not

(01:11:39):
trending towards this being sovereign payments technology we're actually going in the opposite
direction and i think we should acknowledge that it's not and to suggest that just if you're going
to suggest that it's just going to up in reverse one day in my opinion this is just me you need to
have like a very cogent story for how that takes place and telling me the government's going to

(01:12:02):
nationalize mstr how is that going to make people suddenly buy bitcoin and take it into self-custody
I don't even see the solid line between those two things.
No, when you get rugged by an ETF that's holding you, so-called Bitcoin.
Think about it.
You have to sell your ETF.
You'd probably tell Bitcoin to go fuck itself, wouldn't you?

(01:12:25):
That's what happened to a lot of people.
That's exactly what I did when I won.
They told crypto and Bitcoin broadly to go fuck itself.
It's like it's a scam.
But, yeah, you're basically –
People called it a scam and they left and they never came back.
no they didn't what do you mean i came back i know you you keep saying i don't want to talk
about these little people you the guy the individual okay other it's not other people

(01:12:47):
if that's what i'm saying you're always going to be some minority of people who want to do that
all right but that's how it what what do you think the cypherpunks are how do you think
these were a minority of people people it doesn't matter that started bitcoin what are you talking
about you're making no sense no no you're missing my point you're missing my point is not very much

(01:13:09):
if you hear it the point is i've i've made it a bunch of times actually the point is that a
handful of people doing something is not a story about the thing happening in the aggregate like a
few people spending btc is not a story about bitcoin becoming money the same way that a few

(01:13:31):
cyberpunks inventing bitcoin is not the story for how someday we have sovereign sound money and
everyone rejects fiat okay bitcoin already is money solid line between those things bitcoin
already is money you're you're acting like it's going to become money no it's currently a financial
asset that might one day we're we're after terms and if you don't think no their words have meanings

(01:13:57):
It's not currently money, but it could be one day and we just don't know if it's going to happen.
All right, guys.
This is this is I would be happy to talk.
I'm going to be I apologize.
I don't usually mute people.
I love the discussion.
I think it's good.
Like we can have these discussions and agree to disagree.

(01:14:20):
I do have to close up the space, though, guys.
But I want to just say thank you to everybody.
Bastion, who is up here, Neil, Texas Toast, BFP, TXMC.
We'll do it again next week, guys.
Come back and let's talk more about this.
We do this every weekday, 10 a.m. Eastern.
I hate the abrupt ending, so I'm sorry.

(01:14:40):
But I do think it's good because it gets people thinking.
And that's probably the best thing we can do for ourselves is learn every day,
think about these things, stay positive,
and don't have
this bias
on everything.
I think that's
what I took out of the discussion.

(01:15:00):
I hope you guys took some other things too.
But I like it.
It's a good thing to not be in an echo chamber.
And we can have differing opinions and still know or have a pretty good
certainty on where we think things are going,
even if the path is sloppy, like Bastion was saying.
So all good, guys.

(01:15:22):
Want to wish you guys all a wonderful weekend, a great Friday.
and maybe the most important thing for the day is don't follow the McRib indicator.
I don't know if anybody saw it, but second most important thing, don't shitcoin.
It's like eating last year's Halloween candy.

(01:15:47):
What are you, a little baby?
You need your mommy to hold your Bitcoin for you?
People that use fiat currency as a store of value, we call them a core.