July 10, 2025 • 69 mins
Join Bob and Coleman as they discuss the hype in Bitcoin Treasury Companies, adding Bitcoin to your own company balance sheet, how much Bitcoin is going to be enough for individuals just getting in, and why we must do our part to use bitcoin as a medium of exchange. Visit bitcoinveterans.org and sign-up to get answers to any questions you have about bitcoin, mining, homesteading, ETC…
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Thank you.
(00:30):
Hey, good morning. Good morning, everybody.
Give me a thumbs up if you can hear me okay.
Excellent, Bob.
Oh, I do want to welcome you to Bitcoin Veteran Spaces, episode 218.
(00:53):
I am not as sophisticated as Bob has been,
so I am going to do this show with a cold intro.
So I apologize for anybody who's accustomed to the music and the intro music.
But if you'd like, go back and listen to the spaces on fountain.fm.
We have those uploaded after each space.
So you can go ahead and listen to intro music there.
(01:15):
But I do want to thank all of you for joining us this morning.
For everybody in the room, if you could do me a quick favor, go ahead and retweet this link to the space.
Much appreciated.
Let's get a lot of people in here.
It's going to be a great show.
And without further ado, I want to welcome Texas and Bob Van Kirk to the stage.
(01:36):
Good morning, gentlemen.
Good morning, Coleman.
Hey, thanks for getting my show kicked off and coordinating everything this morning.
Yeah, thank you.
And I have to say, Bob, thank you so much for stepping up and taking over.
Things have been pretty chaotic for me for the last couple of months.
(02:00):
And now that I'm feeling better, I got to play catch up for a lot of work that was missed.
So I do appreciate it.
And I apologize for not being in here as often as I should be.
Just work is just really taking over.
So got to pay the bills.
We have Bitcoin for presidents.
Good morning, sir.
(02:20):
How was your evening?
A lot of what you said broke up.
I don't know what was said, but thanks.
BFP is walking his dog in the matrix.
(02:42):
Well, like I said, I've been out of it for the last little bit.
So I wanted to make today kind of just a discussion of kind of what's going on,
maybe carry on any conversations where we might have leapt off over the last couple of days.
I think some of the big headlines I do want to talk about,
and it's really a sticking point with me are these Bitcoin treasury companies.
I know Bobby had put it on the talk sheet yesterday to discuss.
(03:05):
If you already discussed it, we can go ahead and skip over.
But I would like to talk about those and just a word of caution for everybody.
Also, we can talk about Trump calling for 300 basis point reduction.
Kind of crazy with that.
And I'd like to spend a little time on for people who might be just be getting into the space,
(03:26):
not the Bitcoin veteran space, but Bitcoin in general, and really kind of ease the fear that you're too late.
We are still extremely early.
And so kind of go over how much Bitcoin is enough to set you up for the future.
So, gentlemen, I'll throw it over to you all.
(03:46):
Whatever direction you want to start with, we can go ahead and jump in.
And I'll let you choose.
yeah i think the bitcoin treasury companies are something we're continually getting
in the news and people are talking about them all the derivatives and there's a lot of
(04:09):
excitement but also i think confusion and so maybe it's a good idea to chat about that
Yeah, so let's jump into that.
Bob, I'm going to ask you first, just because you chimed in first.
What are your thoughts on these Bitcoin treasury companies?
Do you have any word of caution?
(04:30):
Do you think everyone should jump in?
What are the steps that people should approach with these?
Yeah, I think for me, you know, I'm still studying it.
It's obviously a little bit newer phenomenon other than our favorite, I think, with the most Bitcoin strategy who's been accumulating since at least late 2020.
(04:53):
but yeah I think really what I've where I'm at personally when I look at these companies is
you really have to do a deep dive on each one to understand what type of leverage they are using
in order to accumulate their Bitcoin positions and what I'm curious to see is if any of these
(05:20):
companies either don't have the scale or get over leveraged and are forced sellers of Bitcoin.
I don't think personally that MicroStrategy or Strategy is a forced seller of Bitcoin.
As of yesterday, I think Bitcoin would have to have an 83 and a half percent drawdown
(05:41):
for Strategy to even just be like at a break even.
And so I'm not as worried about them, which is good because they're the biggest ones.
But, you know, these others, I honestly haven't done the deep dive into.
And so I do it's not a fear, but I do kind of foresee that some of them who aren't as sophisticated with their debt structures as strategy is could be end up being margin called or for sellers of a Bitcoin.
(06:18):
And for some of them, it could make them buyout targets or maybe, you know, they need to get liquid dated altogether.
So I'll stop there. But that's kind of where I'm at so far as I as I look into these things.
I think you summed that up really well. And I think for people who like, again, I think there's room for more of these companies to come in.
(06:43):
How much like if you're trying to invest in these specific companies, how much room for growth there is?
I think that's left up for debate. I think by the time it gets to your desk or across your peripheral,
I think it's too late by then. I think the majority of the moves already been made and you might be buying some kind of top.
But I do want to say I don't think this is necessarily like we need to distinguish between these Bitcoin treasury companies and putting Bitcoin on your balance sheet as a company.
(07:12):
Like, I think there's always room for that. And I think everybody, if you own a business, should be doing that in some way, shape or form.
And again, you don't have to be like these these companies. If you can, that's great.
If you can purchase, you know, 10, 100 Bitcoin at a time, I want to pat you on the back for that.
But just start slow and definitely accumulate.
But I think that's one of the big things we need to get across is that there's a difference between these Bitcoin treasury companies and adding Bitcoin to your balance sheet.
(07:40):
And I just and you have to pay attention.
You didn't really hit it on Bob, but the MNAB, just kind of like a dumbed down version of that.
Once it trades higher than one, you're paying higher for that premium on the stock.
And so I would, again, I don't think you should be dipping your toe in any of these until you get to the left of the decimal with Bitcoin.
(08:02):
That's still where I stand.
I still think you can still accumulate, dig down, take up extra jobs, do something where you can get to the left of the decimal.
There is still time for you.
Once you get to the left, if you want to play around, play around.
But think of it as casino money.
If you can come out of the casino with extra or more than when you went in, that's awesome.
(08:22):
But if you go home empty handed, make sure that's not your life savings.
Texas, I see you have your hand up.
Good morning, fellas.
Coleman, good to have you back, brother.
But yeah, I mean, I've come at this from the personal perspective, from a small business
perspective and from a family office.
And I've gotten, you know, so I kind of go in between those three worlds.
(08:48):
And, you know, the small business and the family office, if they were structured differently, they would be more or if they were more willing just based on how they are, they don't want to take any debt.
So in both cases, it's just, you know, we have excess cash flows.
A percentage of that goes into Bitcoin and that's your long term net.
(09:11):
And so it'll be really cool to see over the next five years how that plays out.
And in small businesses, it's like that is so clutch to just have that extra savings because you're, you know, all these small businesses have some sort of cash reserves for a rainy day slash fun, emergency purchase.
(09:36):
you know, refrigerator goes out, some sort of equipment goes out. You need to purchase it now.
And so sometimes they can use credit for that. But a lot of a lot of times you just want to have
the cash. And so they have it. But then they get bigger and or their business is doing well.
(09:57):
And that cash reserve becomes way too big as a percentage. It doesn't really make any sense.
So having that that extra kicker of Bitcoin is being even 10 percent up to 50, you know, depending on how risk tolerant you are and what your cash flow situation is.
It's like maybe you can tolerate a 90 percent of your excess cash flow is going into Bitcoin.
(10:19):
But that to me, that's the way that's the way to go.
A lot of these ones on leverage are going to are going to go.
They're not going to make it.
They're going to be more sophisticated than they think or be less sophisticated than they think they are.
And they'll, you know, steal your money as they as they go into bankruptcy.
(10:41):
But it's going to be really cool to see the small business adoption and the kind of slow and steady approach of just, hey, you have a savings tool again that can pay for a roof.
You can pay for all these things.
I was talking about how insurance is so ridiculous that, you know, you can't even, it feels like you're running on a hamster wheel and it's hard to, you know, make any improvements to a business.
(11:12):
But with Bitcoin, there's a vision of hope there where it's like you don't have to rely on insurance.
You can do things yourself.
there's a way to save a way to grow your value and store your value that
we'll appreciate. So yeah, I come at it from all these perspectives and
it's awesome. I'm excited for the next five years.
(11:38):
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for that, Texas.
And so I'm going to kind of just keep rolling with this.
It goes right into the next one.
How much Bitcoin is enough than Texas?
If you're trying to save for your business and you're trying to make it,
you know, over that five-year hurdle, how much should you be stacking?
How much should, what should your goal be?
Maybe not a dollar denominated amount,
(11:58):
but what percentage should you be trying to accumulate from your,
your gross sales or net sales?
Yeah. I mean, I would say like you go by operating expenses,
think of it like an emergency fund and you want to at least get up to,
you know, a certain level amount of operating expense,
monthly operating expenses so that you know you some sort of unforeseen circumstance happens and
(12:26):
you're still able to operate you're still able to pay your employees you're not going into debt
to do so for laying people off and and you can kind of readjust so I don't know I think of it
an emergency fund like three to six months of operating expenses instead of
(12:48):
Can anyone else hear Texas?
I think we lost him to the matrix.
No, I lost him too.
I'll continue where I kind of lost him at.
Three to six months of operating costs.
The crazy thing about that is the way that Bitcoin, the kegger on it.
(13:08):
You know, if you just continue to hold that and you don't have to utilize it for your expenses
and it can just sit there in your cold storage wallet,
But you turn your three to six months into 12 to 18, 18 to 24.
And before you know it, you have four years of savings built up simply just because it continues to grow.
And it grows faster than the rate of inflation and the debasement of fiat.
(13:33):
So, again, everyone's situation is going to be different.
Everyone's business is a little bit different.
But I do think that you need to try and just start accumulating it and accumulate it slowly. Don't worry about you don't have one Bitcoin yet for your for your business. Start off slow. Like, again, as this thing grows, one Bitcoin is one hundred thousand, one hundred and ten thousand dollars.
(14:00):
You know, in 10 years, that's going to be a couple million dollars.
So do you really need to still get to one or does 0.1 Bitcoin work for your specific goals?
So, again, just make sure you don't get over leveraged too much and that you you're taking the risk seriously because the worst thing you can do is be too ambitious, too lofty in your goals and then have to sell it, you know, at a local bottom.
(14:27):
and then you just see it start ripping and now you're left with less.
So just stay humble, stack stats, take it at your own pace.
But I'm going to contradict myself a little bit here.
I still think everyone should try to get to the left of the decimal.
I still think that should be everyone's goal.
But don't necessarily worry if you can't get to that, if that makes sense.
(14:49):
Just keep going slowly and steady.
hey coleman for some reason i can't approve texas toast request to come back up so just a heads up
there maybe why you try to figure that out since i can't do it um yeah i i'll just chime in on this
i think um i think too many people compare themselves to other people so that's why a lot
(15:13):
of people think oh man i'm too late they see you know the early editions of nerds and lambos um
And, you know, all these people have accumulated vast amounts of Bitcoin, you know, that shouldn't be talking about it in public.
But you run into this issue of comparing yourself to others.
(15:35):
And so I think each person or business or family office is, you know, as much as we say, like, you're going to get Bitcoin at the price you deserve.
You also have to think of it as make sure that you're just doing the best that you can with the capital that you have.
And so, you know, I can't tell you specifically if it's three months, six months, 12 months, one month, whatever it would be, you know, from a small business perspective.
(16:05):
But I can tell you it's good for you to get off zero as an organization.
It's good for you to get off zero as an individual.
And so really what you have to do is think about not everybody else.
You have to look inside your own situation and then do the best that you can with the capital that you have.
And it doesn't matter how much you have compared to other people.
(16:27):
It's really a game against yourself.
Overspending, we know.
Not saving, we know, leads to, you know, a lot of times massive amounts of debt.
and it doesn't help in terms of accumulating any type of savings.
And we know the best one is Bitcoin.
(16:48):
So I'll pause there.
But just those are kind of my thoughts as I was trying to fill in for while we were trying to get Texas back on stage.
Well, I appreciate that, Bob.
It looks like we got Texas back.
I see, Hunter, we have your hand up.
So good morning, sir.
Hey, good morning, guys.
(17:09):
Yeah, lots of good stuff.
I like what kind of Bob was touching on there, too, is, you know, not not coming at Bitcoin from a place of like desperation.
I tried to keep my debt managed and you know I been DCA for a long time And you can watch some of these videos where the Hopium just gets to astronomical levels of price predictions And you know for me I like the psychological effect of setting stacking goals
(17:34):
That's been very helpful in my journey.
But mostly just setting my DCA to an amount that I can go to sleep at night and not have to worry about,
is my bills going to get paid, and having the right time preference.
And over time, you know, hitting those stacking goals has really given me, you know, the hope for the future that, you know, Bitcoin is going to be something amazing.
(17:54):
But even if it's not, which I still think it is, not everything is riding on it because I've tried to, you know, create this life to where I'm not in this like debt prison.
And so I don't look at it from desperation.
I look at it from a positive, you know, look at this is going to be something amazing down the road.
(18:15):
Yeah, really good comments. One other thing I'll throw in is, you know, the only competition is, I did say, like, you know, you're not competing with everybody else.
The only competition there really is, is that we all know that there's a finite amount of this to go around.
(18:36):
And so the sooner you adopt it, the reason I said get off zero and figure out your accumulation plan is because obviously it's scarce.
And so we all need to be, well, if you understand it, take this lifeline for what it is.
(18:58):
It's right there for you.
Anybody can participate.
That's the great part.
And, you know, it's probably stuff we've all said or heard before, but maybe just a reminder here on this Thursday.
You know what lies beyond the beach, Bob?
Immortality. Take it. It's yours.
(19:23):
Hey, I'm going to ask if Gabe or Coinfather, I thought I saw him up here.
If y'all could get a chance to come up here.
I know that you were at Bitcoin Alaska.
So I'd love for if you could come up here and do a little recap of what it was like, what y'all experienced.
We didn't cover this yet.
Did we, Bob?
Do a recap on it?
(19:44):
No, I mentioned it on Monday.
And it would be great to have someone up.
I think maybe there's a little bit of the, you know, conference hangover.
So it's fine to give people a couple of days.
But here we are at Thursday.
We still haven't talked about it.
So I echo those calls for those guys to come up and chat with us about it.
(20:06):
Yeah, a little conference hangover, not to mention the time difference,
anywhere from three to four hours, depending on which side of the country you live on.
So I have to admit I had a lot of FOMO when I saw the pictures and the stuff going on.
I had to cancel my trip last minute just due to some unforeseen circumstances.
(20:27):
So definitely, if you can, I'd love for you to come up here.
It looks like we've got ITIOD that's going to request and share some of that.
So good morning, sir.
How are you doing?
(20:47):
I don't hear anything.
ITIOD, can you hear us?
yes i can hear you i didn't realize i was a speaker
are you good did you want to give a recap of how bitcoin alaska was that was amazing uh we had a
(21:08):
a wonderful time there uh the conference itself was was pretty awesome uh and then what was better
even was the ancillary get-togethers that we had.
It was really cool.
We did a polar punch, which was quite amazing and cold, and barbecue.
(21:33):
Some folks went to a karaoke night.
The camaraderie there was just absolutely amazing.
Had a wonderful time.
The scenery was awesome.
Lots of hiking done.
And then the conference itself was awesome.
It was mostly pure signal. You had folks like Alex Gladstein up there talking and then lots of young folks interested in Bitcoin, schools, colleges talking about curriculums in Bitcoin.
(22:08):
And then obviously, Alaska being historically a gold mining state.
Now, lots of Bitcoin mining talks as well, trying to get awareness to the benefits that Alaska can bring to Bitcoin mining.
So overall, I was there for a whole week and brought my son.
(22:32):
So very family friendly. Whale cruise was awesome.
We got to see two whales and two military planes flew over us, showing off as well.
That was pretty cool.
But yeah, no, I had a wonderful time.
Definitely want to do it again.
That's awesome.
I'm glad it was a great conference and shout out to Wade and everybody who helped get that conference going.
(23:00):
It did not look like it was very easy for him to accomplish everything.
So to see that it was so successful is amazing.
Coin Father, we have you up here as well.
Good morning, sir.
Did you want to add anything?
Yeah.
Can you hear me?
My voice is gone, so I've got a little bit of a cold since I've been back.
(23:21):
But, yeah, I mean, Odie pretty much summed up a lot of the conference.
I guess a shout out to the Bitcoin veterans
because maybe they called in that C-130 flyby.
And Wade did a great job putting on the conference
(23:41):
to pull in more people next year.
I think it needs to be in a bigger city, possibly Anchorage,
but that would be awesome to see that because that's where I'm from.
And karaoke night was awesome.
Tone Vase, man, he can cook.
If you guys didn't know that, he cooked amazing fish and steaks,
(24:03):
especially that last night.
We had the congressman baggage over as well at the end of the conference,
and we all got together and talked.
But, yeah, I'll step off the stage now.
I appreciate that.
(24:23):
and thank you for the summary
both of you
I believe the conference next year
is going to be
post July
but I think Wade is still trying to do it
in Juneau again
just for the elected officials
that are there
and I think that's home base for Wade as well
but if you're having a little FOMO
(24:45):
you want to go out there
bitcoinalaska.org
and I think in the next couple of weeks
they'll start having information
for next year's conference
I do want to remind everybody, if you could, if you haven't done so already, go ahead and retweet the link to this space.
Let's get some more listeners in here.
If you're new to this space, we do this every Monday through Friday at 10 a.m. Eastern Time.
(25:08):
I highly encourage you to go to BitcoinVeterans.org.
Click on that sign up link in the top right.
Fill out that information and join us.
Join the mission.
Join the cause.
but also you'll get connected with a wide variety of veterans that can help you with any type of
question you may encounter, whether it's to onboarding, which exchange to use, how to use
(25:32):
wallets, if you're new into mining, homesteading, homeschooling, fitness, name a topic. We're going
to have something to talk about that and that's going to be on our signal chats. But to add you
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you up. Also, fountain.fm. We post these spaces over the last week up on fountain.fm, Bitcoin
(26:00):
veterans. Go ahead and subscribe to that to get notified. If you like what you're hearing, go ahead,
feel free to donate some stats. We use that to do good work in the name of Bitcoin veterans.
So gentlemen, I'll throw it back to y'all. Is there anything else you wanted to cover
that we haven't touched on yet,
or we can keep kind of moving on through some of the headlines.
(26:26):
Maybe we should kick it back around to everybody on the Bitcoin acquisition companies
or Bitcoin treasury companies and just see BFP, Texas, Hunter,
any thoughts or final thoughts on that topic?
You're breaking up on my end. Was that about Bitcoin treasury companies? Is that the question?
(26:51):
Yes, Hunter.
Yeah, I think it just needs to be reinforced how different Bitcoin is from these, you know, auxiliary Bitcoin things that you can do.
You know, Bitcoin's got properties that these things don't have.
So it's so important that you stack some Bitcoin before you even consider going down the Bitcoin treasury rabbit hole.
(27:12):
And I'm not a big like finance guy, tradition, tradify guy.
But once you hit certain stacking goals and you've got the funds for it, I mean, it is kind of like gambling with a company because at the end of the day, you know, they don't have the scarcity that Bitcoin has.
They don't have the permissionlessness that Bitcoin has and sensor resistance, all of that.
There's so many properties that Bitcoin has that these things don't have.
(27:35):
So don't get into those before you get Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is superior in every way.
Yeah, I mean, eventually everybody will become a Bitcoin.
Every company will be a Bitcoin treasury company.
I kind of think there should be a different name for these companies that don't have, you know,
a fundamental business outside of acquiring Bitcoin with debt.
(27:57):
But, yeah, it's just kind of a weird middle period where a lot of those are probably going to work out because of just how early and where we're at in the adoption curve.
A lot of those companies will do really well, but a lot won't.
(28:19):
and they'll go tits up at the wrong time,
and the solid ones will come out on the other side,
and everybody that was just stacking with excess cash along the way will be just fine.
TJM, we saw you just join us.
(28:41):
Good morning.
Can you find that unmute button?
Can you hear us, TJM?
He runs a Saturday morning space.
That's pretty good.
So I know he knows how to come off mute.
(29:01):
Maybe he's just having a connection issue there.
Hey.
As soon as I connected, I stopped hearing everyone.
I just wanted to say there is a name for the companies who don't have any
underlying business.
(29:21):
Bitcoin Treasury Company is just
a name for a zombie company that
has discovered Bitcoin.
I think that's
great that you bring that up.
There's
actual operating companies
and then if you invest
your property in Bitcoin,
(29:44):
at that point, I don't think
MNAP is ridiculous.
You have
your cash value, which you've always had, and then you have the operating
business above that. And people have
got it out there.
Yeah, I think that's a good way to start framing it for
(30:09):
people is adding the zombie, either Bitcoin zombie
treasury companies or zombie Bitcoin treasury companies,
just to kind of differentiate.
And it really highlights kind of what these companies are.
(30:29):
And again, if you don't trust the company, you're not sure,
you're never going to go wrong with just putting that money into Bitcoin.
Taking it off the exchange as soon as it clears,
putting it in your cold card wallet,
I'm telling you there's no safer bet than doing that.
Again, if you have some casino money you want to play around with, go for it.
But again, it's Bitcoin first.
(30:51):
Sorry, Bob, I didn't mean to talk over you.
No, no problem.
I do think that there's a lot of people out there who have acquired strategy and others in their IRAs because it's been difficult to buy spot Bitcoin.
A lot of people find it quite difficult.
(31:11):
And it is.
I mean, the paperwork is pretty insane.
But in order to get spot Bitcoin, you either have to find a custodian or you can create a self-directed IRA.
But the paperwork on that up until now has been pretty, pretty onerous.
(31:34):
And so we've been actually looking at trying to figure out a way to streamline that a little bit for people.
But yeah, more to come on that. I think as far as the the these companies go, again, I'll just say, like, you do have to assess the risk.
(31:55):
And most of us are just simple people and we're just better off buying Bitcoin.
You know, a lot of people will compare Bitcoin to real estate or to gold.
And, you know, when you start looking at like income producing rental properties, you have tenants, you have maybe management fees, you know, just your time.
(32:20):
and it's gotten pretty expensive to acquire properties too, right?
We've seen real estate prices go up.
So I think, you know, when you start comparing Bitcoin seriously to other assets,
including the treasury companies, you just have to say, like,
(32:42):
what are the pluses and minuses?
What are my risk tolerances?
What could go wrong?
and Bitcoin's the tried and true simple thing.
You can acquire it, hold it safely yourself
and really not think about it too much.
So I'll just kind of land my plan there on that one.
(33:09):
Really quick, my dogs are about to go crazy.
Someone just pulled in the driveway.
So I think something else, if we want to start changing the subject, I think it's a huge accomplishment.
But Unchained just did a billion dollars worth of lending with zero rehypothecation.
(33:29):
So I think that's something that we could probably talk on a little bit.
Yeah, I still have personally, and I'd love to hear others on the panel, their thoughts.
But, you know, the rates are still so high.
And sure, you could argue like, OK, Bitcoin, if I'm going to take a loan and get a return that's higher than 14 percent, then the interest rate makes sense.
(33:58):
Or if you say, hey, I can use my Bitcoin as collateral and 14 percent is nothing to pay compared to the taxes I'm going to have to pay because I have this massive gain that I'm going to get to avoid.
I don't know. For me, it's still really a tough pill to swallow based on where the rates are at.
(34:20):
But curious to hear others thoughts on that.
Do you know the top off the top of your head what their rate is?
I haven't looked in a little while, but I think it was somewhere around, depending on what exactly you're doing, it's 13.5 to 14.5.
But clearly, I mean, with a billion dollars in loan volume, there's demand there.
(34:43):
So, you know, somebody's using it or there are people using it.
So I not trying to knock it I just saying for me as I assess the risk and the structure and all of that it hard for me to swallow that Yeah for me these things are great tools for like very short term cash needs where you can you know just in a pinch if you need the cash and you don want to sell it and you know in the short to near term you going to be able to either get a different you know loan traditional loan with a lower interest rate or a you know loan against your property or any of these things
(35:27):
But those those other types of mortgages or loans, they take a decent amount of time and paperwork to get through.
So the Bitcoin loans are a simple, quick, easy thing.
What you don't want to do is you just, in my opinion, you don't want to get caught in servicing these types of loans for a long time.
(35:52):
It's kind of just like a short, quick fix that'll help you get to the next stage.
But yeah, at this interest rate, it's too high.
I mean, I'll be, I bet over the next year, they'll drop significantly as all these products
and the regulatory environment is paved.
(36:13):
Then we'll see some decent amount of competition and lower rates and kind of this free market
rate will, Bitcoin rate will come about.
Yeah, and I think that's the neat thing about this is that as there's more players coming into the game, just naturally things become more competitive.
(36:33):
So that rate has to come down if you want to try and be the person everybody utilizes.
And I think you can see that right now with Strike.
They're offering, I think, sub 10% loans for Bitcoin.
I'm not exactly sure. I imagine it's probably pretty similar to Unchained with the capital requirement.
(36:59):
So, Coleman, I went in, not to interrupt, but I went in and just tried to see in Strike.
I have the app. And in order to get their lowest rate, there's a couple of different structures that you have to do.
and one of them is you have to put up at least $4 million worth of Bitcoin
(37:24):
and take out at least a $2 million loan in order to get the lowest rate.
So it's much higher once you're in the normal scenarios
for most of us that are in this room, I think.
Hey, speak for yourself, sir.
No, I'm joking.
I wish I had $4 million of Bitcoin I could just put up
(37:46):
and not care if it got lost.
No, so that's interesting you bring that up.
So there's kind of that teaser, right?
But like Texas had said earlier,
unless it's kind of like an emergency,
you absolutely need to use it short term.
Just be hesitant with it.
Putting it up as collateral,
I think it's almost the same thing
(38:07):
as leaving on an exchange.
I don't think unchained capital
has had any issues with losing people's Bitcoin,
but I think there's a risk that you don't pay that loan back.
Bitcoin price crashes.
You don't have the collateral,
but keep your loan to value ratio at the right margins
(38:27):
and you could lose it all.
So I see we have a couple of hands up,
so I'll pass it over.
I think TJM, you were first and then ITOD.
First, go ahead.
yeah so um i think that's very interesting bob with uh needing four million dollars to get the
(38:49):
lowest rates that's uh and i agree if you're on twitter and you're looking at uh a lot of
bitcoiners who've been in this space for for many many many years and probably meet that criteria
they're all talking about uh getting loans against their bitcoin they're talking about the
treasury companies, as we were talking earlier, and buying those retirement funds and that kind of stuff.
(39:17):
To me, for myself and probably, you know, over 80 percent of the people here, we just need to get to one.
We need to just keep stacking sats and not trying to play the fiat games and getting sucked into what other people are doing.
(39:42):
Those other people probably do have $4 million in Bitcoin.
And at that point, yeah, you can play whatever fiat games you want.
But until then, get more Bitcoin and don't give it to people and don't lend your money to other people and other companies for them to buy their own Bitcoin.
Buy it yourself, get it yourself, take it into self-custody and then live off that later in the future.
(40:07):
But until you get to at least one, these games are not for us.
yeah i i agree 100 with what you said um a lot of this stuff isn't gonna be applicable to
the vast majority of us um looks like tjm dropped down
(40:29):
here we go bring you back up sir uh big one for presidents or texas do you have anything
you want to add on that?
I was just wondering if anyone could give
a very small and informative
what is of MNAV,
(40:49):
Modified Net Asset Value.
I know the lower the number,
the better.
Or actually, I'm not even sure about that.
If no one else wants to step up,
I'll take a quick stab at it.
I think it's just your MNAV is the multiple it trains your stock trades at to your total value, right?
(41:16):
So I'll use MicroStrategy as the example.
When their MNAV is one, that means that the Bitcoin that they have, sorry, or the assets they have are trading at par of what it should be.
When this MNAV is higher than one, it's trading, the stock value is trading higher than what their assets are.
And when it's below one, it's trading less than what their assets are.
(41:38):
If I am wrong on any of that, someone please correct me.
Okay, thanks.
That helps.
So it's kind of like a price to earnings multiple, but one being the bar or like the middle one.
You got it.
Yeah.
And what I'll say is like you see some of these companies like NVIDIA who are trading at 50 times earnings.
(42:02):
In fact, NVIDIA just went over $4 trillion yesterday in terms of market cap, so they were in the news.
But, you know, you've got to think about, like, the premiums people are paying for some of these companies.
And maybe it's warranted, maybe it's not.
But, you know, personally, I don't want to be investing in companies that have all these risks and have, you know, you're really overpaying.
(42:32):
So when you look at maybe something like a strategy being at, say, 1.7, 1.8, I haven't looked lately in terms of net asset value.
Like, yeah, I mean, you could argue that it's you're overpaying, but you could also say it's a bargain if you believe in the scarcity of Bitcoin and understand the scarcity of Bitcoin.
(42:58):
And that these companies are set up to continually accumulate and hold and never sell.
Then, you know, you can do your own research and figure out if that risk is good for you.
I don't think any of these metrics are perfect.
And so you just have to use your brain.
Part of it is playing everyone else saying like, at what, at what number MNAV multiple
(43:24):
does the rest of the market say this isn't worth it anymore and they stopped buying it.
So it is a little bit of a game.
There's a lot of different ways to think about it.
I'll, I'll stop there.
I just wanted to jump in on, and I'm going to keep my thoughts straight.
(43:50):
First off, it is an asset measure.
It is a balance sheet metric that looks at the Bitcoin you have relative to the market cap of the company.
That is fundamentally different for price of earnings, which is an income sheet or income statement measure,
which is looking at what is the market cap or price of the stock relative to the annual earnings or period earnings.
(44:22):
So those are two fundamental things.
of things.
My first strategy
is actually that people
will not understand
and go
to MNAV
(44:43):
because they're thinking
that, like,
Christ,
the other thing is,
like I said,
the MNAV
is a matter of
what has to
say,
hold
to market cap
or what
Bitcoin is able to
That is the word
(45:06):
in their business.
Now,
we've been discussing around Apple
and their cash hoard over...
Hey, TJ,
I think your Bluetooth is
really
bad. I'm not sure.
(45:29):
I think what you're saying
is they're two different...
Yeah, I think what he's saying is the MNEV is valuing the assets,
and the price-to-earnings multiple is more so valuing the earnings.
And so we're looking at these companies in two different ways as far as metrics.
(45:53):
So I kind of got what he was saying through the matrix,
But I think that's a good way to look at it.
Yeah, it's a good point.
But I do wonder, you know, like if you have a zombie company that doesn't really have any way to go higher in terms of earnings,
(46:16):
and their core business is now set up to just acquire this pristine asset,
I think the whole reason for this MNEV metric is to give people some sort of a semblance of measurement on how they're progressing.
(46:39):
Obviously, we know they're not making earnings because the underlying company is a zombie company.
Maybe it's growing incrementally, but it's probably not keeping up with debasement, money printing, inflation, all of those things.
And so then you have to somehow measure the underlying treasury.
(47:03):
Right. And so it's kind of an interesting new metric overall, because you don't see companies usually putting capital into acquiring tons of tons of assets.
They're usually investing in their profitable business operation.
And so I think it's a good point, but you need some way to measure these folks.
(47:30):
And so then the question becomes, you know, do you want to be investing in NVIDIA at
you want to be investing in a company who is at uh you know if all of their assets got liquidated
knowing that the asset is bitcoin um you want to be overpaying for that um and again keeping
(47:56):
in consideration that they bought all that with with debt and you know the risks associated with
So it's a good discussion.
Yeah, I believe some of that cut out a little bit for me,
but I believe that we are in like not even the early innings where the
(48:16):
players are still warming up on the field for the transition of companies
moving over to a Bitcoin balance sheets.
So I think these are just what people are trying,
how people are trying to figure out how to value companies,
that are using Bitcoin as a treasury asset because, you know,
(48:37):
obviously the best companies are going to be ones that are earning the most money
and saving in Bitcoin.
So an Amazon that's using Bitcoin as their treasury asset is going to destroy the old Amazon.
So I think that's what we're moving towards is a different paradigm of Wall Street.
(49:02):
Yeah, not to change the subject. Hopefully I'm coming in okay. I apologize, guys. I'm traveling here this morning. But not to change the subject too much. BlackRock came out yesterday and said that their Bitcoin ETF has a lot less assets in it, but is way more profitable than their six, I think they have six trillion in their S&P 500.
(49:32):
ETF and their Bitcoin ETF has far less in it, obviously, and it's a lot more profitable.
So I think that's waking some people up on Wall Street and certainly some interesting news.
I wonder if those premiums will come down over time, where as the assets grow, more people go into it,
(49:58):
more competition, maybe more competition comes in, they'll have to lower their fee.
And but for now, I think it's making people pay attention and maybe even say they want to get into the game.
A couple of questions for you with that, Bob.
How and guesstimate, how long until we start seeing some of these ETFs get engulfed by the larger ones?
(50:23):
Because I think there is nine or ten out there.
when are they going to start just kind of getting acquired by the other ones?
Yeah, it's a great question.
I actually think that there's a possibility of expansion of ETFs
(50:44):
before we see any type of consolidation
just because of the custody fee that can be charged or the management fee.
So I actually can make a case for some of the big guys that we haven't seen that have other ETFs that haven't created a Bitcoin ETF yet.
Now look at this and say, gosh, we really have to educate ourselves if we haven't already and get into this game.
(51:12):
And, you know, they're probably going to be able to be profitable even at a lower expense ratio.
And that will drive pressure for the bigger names, even though like BlackRock's a big name.
Fidelity is the second largest. There's other large ones out there.
(51:33):
They'll all have to drop their price as more competition comes in.
So I think we're actually going to be in a period of expansion of additional ETFs for a little while before any type of consolidation occurs.
But that could be a bad take in a few days or weeks as well when somebody gives it up or sells out to one of the bigger guys.
(52:02):
So we'll see. But I don't know.
It just would stand to reason for me, just looking at it, that we get more choices in
the short term.
I have a follow question with you My understanding of the way that an ETF works is the larger the ETF or the more that they control and the more I guess dollar amount that they have the more attractive they are to investors
(52:29):
Correct? Yeah, it depends on the pools of capital that you're going after. And so what I guess
where I'll maybe kind of lean into your question a little bit is that it depends on who the ETF is
actually going after. So like BlackRock and Fidelity are mainly, you know, institutional,
(52:56):
but Fidelity does have a lot of people investing in their ETFs, maybe by number, but not by dollar
amount just directly through their platform. And so, yeah, I think it really depends how these ETFs
are set up and who they're targeting and what capital they're targeting. So I'll pause there.
(53:23):
No, that's perfect. Because then my next point that I would make is Grayscale. It has one of
the highest fees and they had the initial sell-off when everything kind of rolled out.
But over the last couple of months, they've just kind of been hovering right where they're at.
And I think they are the most profitable ETF, even though they don't hold the most,
(53:45):
they just make the most money because they have the higher fee set.
So I guess my question would be, would BlackRock or Fidelity necessarily
have to lower their fees to be more competitive just simply because they have such a large moat,
They're just that much more attractive to the capital that they're trying to attract.
Yeah, I mean, I think Fidelity and BlackRock are clear winners here.
(54:09):
But if you get other ETFs that are launched by companies like Vanguard or, you know, some of the other big asset allocators that are going to be able to bring in their own customers.
Like if Vanguard says, hey, we're seeing some runoff of clients and runoff of capital to the BlackRock and the Fidelity ETFs, when they launch their own, whether it's defensive or offensive, they're going to have to do something starting out from square one to gain traction with those institutional clients.
(54:50):
and probably the best way to do it is to make it a cheaper fee.
So I do think the fees would come down in that case.
As it relates to Grayscale, they have had an application with the SEC
to convert that over from the trust to an ETF.
(55:10):
And recently, I think it was this week, I saw it's shelled again.
So they're not able to transition that.
But you can see where they would have to, at some point, if they're trying to attract new capital, decrease their fees.
Slowly, that will bleed.
(55:32):
The reason that most of that money is not and it's tied up in there is because people don't want to pay the taxes.
They've been holding on to this for quite some time.
They got in early.
Bitcoin's gone up.
The shares of the trust have gone up.
And so they don't want to, because there's no in-kind redemption right now where you can just withdraw the Bitcoin.
(55:54):
It is a taxable event to get out.
And so you're far better off, you know, in most cases of people paying the high fees to Grayscale rather than cashing it out and moving it to a lower cost provider because of your tax consequences.
So I'll again pause and see if you have any other follow ups.
(56:18):
No, I don't have any follow-ups on that unless someone up on the stage does.
But just for anybody that was wondering, I just pulled it up now.
So this could be off by a little bit.
But BlackRock, Fidelity, and Grayscale, the three largest by a lot, by over 100,000 before they get to the fourth place one,
(56:42):
almost hold a combined 1 million coins.
So these ETFs are definitely gaining traction, and they're gobbling up a large portion of the supply.
So at some point, there should be some kind of, quote-unquote, supply shock where we'll kind of just be – the sellers will run out and there'll be more buyers.
(57:09):
So just something to be aware of.
yeah but but more importantly it's um it's not a good thing because it makes makes things more
centralized and like having an entity holding so much bitcoin it's not good for decentralization
and people need to understand that they still need or have a large portion of their stack
(57:36):
in cold storage Bitcoin.
And I'm just concerned about the new people
who are getting to Bitcoin.
They don't want the hassle.
And so they just go into the ETF
to get exposure.
But they need to understand the sovereignty
because if you were to go to a different country,
you can't bring your ETF with you, right?
You can't use it to spend.
(57:57):
You're missing that power
that what Bitcoin brought to everybody.
And so not only do you get that,
but it's imperative,
like imperative that people have their own Bitcoin to keep the system decentralized, right, the way it's meant to be.
And so I think that's some of the communication that as Bitcoiners, we need to not only just put into practice for ourselves,
(58:20):
but to communicate that to the other people.
That's why, like, for example, MicroStrategy getting like so much Bitcoin,
Bitcoin, people buy strategy because they're like, oh, well, I can get exposure to this
company that actually is holding the Bitcoin.
And that's a completely different thing.
People, for me, like I don't hold any treasury stocks and I don't recommend people do either
(58:46):
due to various counterparty risks and all of these other factors.
No, I say be your own treasury.
Why not just stack yourself, right?
You can be your own treasury.
It's like, why are you giving a company your money to buy Bitcoin when you can just use that same money to buy your own Bitcoin?
Right. It's just weird.
(59:08):
So from that perspective, that's my take on this whole sort of like centralization aspect with ETFs and these treasury companies that are just growing in number.
So we have to remember what's going on there.
Oh, go ahead, Bob.
I'll push back a little bit. I know we're coming up to the end of the hour here, but so I want to be respectful of people's time. But I'll push back a little bit. I think really, I don't I don't I don't see that. I mean, I understand the idea, but I don't think that it's it's really centralizing Bitcoin just because of how it works.
(59:48):
Maybe it's centralizing the ownership.
And I do agree with you that, you know, people should be using Bitcoin as freedom money and not number go up money.
So self-custody Bitcoin is the best way to go.
But I think what the ETFs do is address is one of the biggest problems that still remain for people.
(01:00:11):
We talk about it all the time that you should be self-custodying Bitcoin.
And yet there's still a lot of people who, while they've acquired Bitcoin, some of them a long time ago on exchanges, they use the exchange as a bank, as a custody provider, as someone who's holding on to their asset for them because maybe it's too challenging.
(01:00:35):
They're scared. They don't know who to trust.
And so what really the ETFs are doing is being custody providers for people in the traditional system.
And so, yeah, I don't I don't see the centralization risk.
What's happening is they're driving up price because of the supply and demand dynamic.
(01:00:59):
and that's a bigger concern from people's mindsets,
just like, hey, I'm too late, I can't afford this.
And if they never start acquiring it or getting off zero
and then learning how to self-custody it,
we could see some where you would wish you had,
(01:01:22):
where you had permissionless money that you could use
and not have these intermediaries or have to ask the permission of your government or a financial institution.
So I'll let other people chime in on that.
But I think this is a good discussion.
It's fun to get different angles and viewpoints on it.
(01:01:47):
Yeah, and I'm going to echo what you just said, Bob.
And I think if you have a fear that Bitcoin is being too centralized by these entities, we have only ourselves to blame.
And I really do mean that.
Blame yourself.
How many times have you gone out and you've had the opportunity to pay somebody in Bitcoin, but you chose to pay in cash?
(01:02:11):
How many of you have ordered a solo Satoshi Bitcoin miner?
And instead of clicking the pay in Bitcoin option, you just used your credit card.
And so, again, this is peer to peer. It starts with us. And I'll use Sailor as an example. When it was pizza day, everyone was saying going out and pay for Bitcoin and pay for your pizza and Bitcoin. He said, don't keep the Bitcoin, pay for it in cash.
(01:02:36):
And if we really want this to take over and do what it does, we need to change this mindset.
Spend your sats, replace your sats, go to the exchange.
You're spending $50 on pizza.
Go to the exchange by $55, by $60.
But if you want this to grow and you want this to be adopted, you have to use it.
(01:02:56):
Yes, Bitcoin is a great store of value, but it's not going to become what it is in your lifetime
if it's just sitting as a 24-seed phrase in your head.
You need to get out there.
You need to start spending good.
Go ahead, Bitcoin.
I think if you're fully invested, as I am, I don't hold dollars.
(01:03:19):
So I have to get rid of some of my Bitcoin to actually get some dollars to buy things.
So if anyone's accepting Bitcoin when I'm buying it, that's the first thing I would use.
That's just me, though.
So I see we have 23.
And I don't mean to pick on you, Tao, by anything.
(01:03:41):
I think I just want to make sure that everyone understands that we all need to do our part.
We need to make sure that we are spending Bitcoin and we're trading with it and we're using it the way it's supposed to.
And that's how we beat the system.
23 Skidoo, I'm going to give it to you to kind of start.
Ask your question or give a comment and we'll start wrapping up the show afterwards.
(01:04:02):
Yeah. Hey, good morning. Yeah. My comment on the exchanges and a little bit of back and forth between Bob and Val, you know, I'm not speaking on anything technical here, how it would work.
But the concern with the ETF is on a cultural level. You know, if the spirit of Bitcoin being what it was when it got started and I've been watching it since 2012 and got a little bit in 13 and then 14 and 15.
(01:04:28):
But, you know, the spirit of Bitcoin risks definitely being lost.
The decentralization, the cypherpunk, the sovereign individual spirit of it.
And that to me is the greater risk with things like ETFs and all the financialization of Bitcoin is that the more the culture at large, kids being born now, you know, kids who are 10, you know, who are about to get into Bitcoin or something like that.
(01:04:57):
if they only are experiencing Bitcoin through the mainstream media ETFs,
where will that take Bitcoin?
Because if you just keep proving that out logically down the road,
there's going to be a shift, a change,
as the spirit of people coming into Bitcoin don't really care.
(01:05:19):
You could say it's an agalist.
It's similar to democracy.
I just threw in the wrong word there.
You know, what happens with democracy? People take it for granted. They don't they don't get involved because they just assume they're always free.
They just assume Bitcoin is a good thing will always work, but they lose it through its its cultural financialization and, quote unquote, the man taking it under his wing and turning it into what he wants.
(01:05:47):
Technically speaking, I don't know how that will actually all take place, but it's more of an intuition than anything.
I think that was a great way to start ending up the show.
We all need to take it and do what we want and do what we know with it.
Go back to the roots of what Bitcoin is.
(01:06:09):
And everyone's situation is different.
I get if you have a retirement account and you want to use that to get Bitcoin exposure, again, go for it.
But that shouldn't be a replacement for cold storage Bitcoin in your cold card.
There is no replacement for it.
And don't be scared to spend sats when you need to and when you want to trade for it.
(01:06:30):
Because, again, that's how we get this number to go up.
So I'm going to throw it around the horn one last time for anybody who wants to get any final comments, concerns, suggestions, anything off their chest.
And then I will wrap up the show.
Man, it was so refreshing to hear that silence at the start of the show.
No music echoing in my brain.
(01:06:54):
So I'm going to suggest no more music.
If you disagree, whether you're on stage or in the audience, give us a thumbs down so we can see that you vehemently disagree.
Some people actually would like to hear classical music in the morning.
We're taking that under consideration.
(01:07:15):
It really just depends on your mood, I think.
And I've seen people all over the board with what they want to hear.
those are my final thoughts
but I hope everybody enjoys the new
all-time highs
I think we're going to see a lot more of this
and yeah
stack while you still can
I got two comments
(01:07:41):
one to the music
I really love the
traditional intro for this show
but it does take a
while for a show that's only an hour
starting it just right off seems seems better to me but that's just my thought uh my second comment
is look out for the bitcoin alaska 2026 uh it was an amazing time had a great time there and uh
(01:08:07):
uh if you see it jump on it get on there uh and and but hopefully we get we get more folks into uh
into juno in 26.
All right. Well, I'm going to go wrap it up. Yeah. I think, uh, I think the audio,
(01:08:28):
it sounds good, um, when it's good. And then it sounds horrible when it's going in and out.
Um, so we'll just go ahead and I'm just been adding it into the, uh, the fountain, uh, podcast,
um, at the end of the day. So, um, I think let's go ahead and we'll just play around a bit and
we'll get your feedback. Um, but we can't do that without y'all commenting and sharing and messaging
us. So please continue to do that. I do want to thank every single one of you who tuned in today.
(01:08:53):
Everyone who's the first time, go to BitcoinVeterans.org, click on that sign up link,
put in your information. We're not going to solicit that. We're going to put you and connect
you with one of our groups, answer any questions you have, and make sure that your onboarding
experience and your journey with Bitcoin is successful. And so I do want to thank everybody
(01:09:13):
who came up here and spoke today huge shout out to bob for carrying this and and putting all the
weight on his shoulder so thank you so much we do this every monday through friday at 10 a.m
eastern time so i expect to see all of you tomorrow morning but whatever you do today
do not coin it's like trying to use a paper straw to stir concrete
(01:09:43):
Thank you.
Thank you.
(00:30):
Hey, good morning. Good morning, everybody.
Give me a thumbs up if you can hear me okay.
Excellent, Bob.
Oh, I do want to welcome you to Bitcoin Veteran Spaces, episode 218.
(00:53):
I am not as sophisticated as Bob has been,
so I am going to do this show with a cold intro.
So I apologize for anybody who's accustomed to the music and the intro music.
But if you'd like, go back and listen to the spaces on fountain.fm.
We have those uploaded after each space.
So you can go ahead and listen to intro music there.
(01:15):
But I do want to thank all of you for joining us this morning.
For everybody in the room, if you could do me a quick favor, go ahead and retweet this link to the space.
Much appreciated.
Let's get a lot of people in here.
It's going to be a great show.
And without further ado, I want to welcome Texas and Bob Van Kirk to the stage.
(01:36):
Good morning, gentlemen.
Good morning, Coleman.
Hey, thanks for getting my show kicked off and coordinating everything this morning.
Yeah, thank you.
And I have to say, Bob, thank you so much for stepping up and taking over.
Things have been pretty chaotic for me for the last couple of months.
(02:00):
And now that I'm feeling better, I got to play catch up for a lot of work that was missed.
So I do appreciate it.
And I apologize for not being in here as often as I should be.
Just work is just really taking over.
So got to pay the bills.
We have Bitcoin for presidents.
Good morning, sir.
(02:20):
How was your evening?
A lot of what you said broke up.
I don't know what was said, but thanks.
BFP is walking his dog in the matrix.
(02:42):
Well, like I said, I've been out of it for the last little bit.
So I wanted to make today kind of just a discussion of kind of what's going on,
maybe carry on any conversations where we might have leapt off over the last couple of days.
I think some of the big headlines I do want to talk about,
and it's really a sticking point with me are these Bitcoin treasury companies.
I know Bobby had put it on the talk sheet yesterday to discuss.
(03:05):
If you already discussed it, we can go ahead and skip over.
But I would like to talk about those and just a word of caution for everybody.
Also, we can talk about Trump calling for 300 basis point reduction.
Kind of crazy with that.
And I'd like to spend a little time on for people who might be just be getting into the space,
(03:26):
not the Bitcoin veteran space, but Bitcoin in general, and really kind of ease the fear that you're too late.
We are still extremely early.
And so kind of go over how much Bitcoin is enough to set you up for the future.
So, gentlemen, I'll throw it over to you all.
(03:46):
Whatever direction you want to start with, we can go ahead and jump in.
And I'll let you choose.
yeah i think the bitcoin treasury companies are something we're continually getting
in the news and people are talking about them all the derivatives and there's a lot of
(04:09):
excitement but also i think confusion and so maybe it's a good idea to chat about that
Yeah, so let's jump into that.
Bob, I'm going to ask you first, just because you chimed in first.
What are your thoughts on these Bitcoin treasury companies?
Do you have any word of caution?
(04:30):
Do you think everyone should jump in?
What are the steps that people should approach with these?
Yeah, I think for me, you know, I'm still studying it.
It's obviously a little bit newer phenomenon other than our favorite, I think, with the most Bitcoin strategy who's been accumulating since at least late 2020.
(04:53):
but yeah I think really what I've where I'm at personally when I look at these companies is
you really have to do a deep dive on each one to understand what type of leverage they are using
in order to accumulate their Bitcoin positions and what I'm curious to see is if any of these
(05:20):
companies either don't have the scale or get over leveraged and are forced sellers of Bitcoin.
I don't think personally that MicroStrategy or Strategy is a forced seller of Bitcoin.
As of yesterday, I think Bitcoin would have to have an 83 and a half percent drawdown
(05:41):
for Strategy to even just be like at a break even.
And so I'm not as worried about them, which is good because they're the biggest ones.
But, you know, these others, I honestly haven't done the deep dive into.
And so I do it's not a fear, but I do kind of foresee that some of them who aren't as sophisticated with their debt structures as strategy is could be end up being margin called or for sellers of a Bitcoin.
(06:18):
And for some of them, it could make them buyout targets or maybe, you know, they need to get liquid dated altogether.
So I'll stop there. But that's kind of where I'm at so far as I as I look into these things.
I think you summed that up really well. And I think for people who like, again, I think there's room for more of these companies to come in.
(06:43):
How much like if you're trying to invest in these specific companies, how much room for growth there is?
I think that's left up for debate. I think by the time it gets to your desk or across your peripheral,
I think it's too late by then. I think the majority of the moves already been made and you might be buying some kind of top.
But I do want to say I don't think this is necessarily like we need to distinguish between these Bitcoin treasury companies and putting Bitcoin on your balance sheet as a company.
(07:12):
Like, I think there's always room for that. And I think everybody, if you own a business, should be doing that in some way, shape or form.
And again, you don't have to be like these these companies. If you can, that's great.
If you can purchase, you know, 10, 100 Bitcoin at a time, I want to pat you on the back for that.
But just start slow and definitely accumulate.
But I think that's one of the big things we need to get across is that there's a difference between these Bitcoin treasury companies and adding Bitcoin to your balance sheet.
(07:40):
And I just and you have to pay attention.
You didn't really hit it on Bob, but the MNAB, just kind of like a dumbed down version of that.
Once it trades higher than one, you're paying higher for that premium on the stock.
And so I would, again, I don't think you should be dipping your toe in any of these until you get to the left of the decimal with Bitcoin.
(08:02):
That's still where I stand.
I still think you can still accumulate, dig down, take up extra jobs, do something where you can get to the left of the decimal.
There is still time for you.
Once you get to the left, if you want to play around, play around.
But think of it as casino money.
If you can come out of the casino with extra or more than when you went in, that's awesome.
(08:22):
But if you go home empty handed, make sure that's not your life savings.
Texas, I see you have your hand up.
Good morning, fellas.
Coleman, good to have you back, brother.
But yeah, I mean, I've come at this from the personal perspective, from a small business
perspective and from a family office.
And I've gotten, you know, so I kind of go in between those three worlds.
(08:48):
And, you know, the small business and the family office, if they were structured differently, they would be more or if they were more willing just based on how they are, they don't want to take any debt.
So in both cases, it's just, you know, we have excess cash flows.
A percentage of that goes into Bitcoin and that's your long term net.
(09:11):
And so it'll be really cool to see over the next five years how that plays out.
And in small businesses, it's like that is so clutch to just have that extra savings because you're, you know, all these small businesses have some sort of cash reserves for a rainy day slash fun, emergency purchase.
(09:36):
you know, refrigerator goes out, some sort of equipment goes out. You need to purchase it now.
And so sometimes they can use credit for that. But a lot of a lot of times you just want to have
the cash. And so they have it. But then they get bigger and or their business is doing well.
(09:57):
And that cash reserve becomes way too big as a percentage. It doesn't really make any sense.
So having that that extra kicker of Bitcoin is being even 10 percent up to 50, you know, depending on how risk tolerant you are and what your cash flow situation is.
It's like maybe you can tolerate a 90 percent of your excess cash flow is going into Bitcoin.
(10:19):
But that to me, that's the way that's the way to go.
A lot of these ones on leverage are going to are going to go.
They're not going to make it.
They're going to be more sophisticated than they think or be less sophisticated than they think they are.
And they'll, you know, steal your money as they as they go into bankruptcy.
(10:41):
But it's going to be really cool to see the small business adoption and the kind of slow and steady approach of just, hey, you have a savings tool again that can pay for a roof.
You can pay for all these things.
I was talking about how insurance is so ridiculous that, you know, you can't even, it feels like you're running on a hamster wheel and it's hard to, you know, make any improvements to a business.
(11:12):
But with Bitcoin, there's a vision of hope there where it's like you don't have to rely on insurance.
You can do things yourself.
there's a way to save a way to grow your value and store your value that
we'll appreciate. So yeah, I come at it from all these perspectives and
it's awesome. I'm excited for the next five years.
(11:38):
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for that, Texas.
And so I'm going to kind of just keep rolling with this.
It goes right into the next one.
How much Bitcoin is enough than Texas?
If you're trying to save for your business and you're trying to make it,
you know, over that five-year hurdle, how much should you be stacking?
How much should, what should your goal be?
Maybe not a dollar denominated amount,
(11:58):
but what percentage should you be trying to accumulate from your,
your gross sales or net sales?
Yeah. I mean, I would say like you go by operating expenses,
think of it like an emergency fund and you want to at least get up to,
you know, a certain level amount of operating expense,
monthly operating expenses so that you know you some sort of unforeseen circumstance happens and
(12:26):
you're still able to operate you're still able to pay your employees you're not going into debt
to do so for laying people off and and you can kind of readjust so I don't know I think of it
an emergency fund like three to six months of operating expenses instead of
(12:48):
Can anyone else hear Texas?
I think we lost him to the matrix.
No, I lost him too.
I'll continue where I kind of lost him at.
Three to six months of operating costs.
The crazy thing about that is the way that Bitcoin, the kegger on it.
(13:08):
You know, if you just continue to hold that and you don't have to utilize it for your expenses
and it can just sit there in your cold storage wallet,
But you turn your three to six months into 12 to 18, 18 to 24.
And before you know it, you have four years of savings built up simply just because it continues to grow.
And it grows faster than the rate of inflation and the debasement of fiat.
(13:33):
So, again, everyone's situation is going to be different.
Everyone's business is a little bit different.
But I do think that you need to try and just start accumulating it and accumulate it slowly. Don't worry about you don't have one Bitcoin yet for your for your business. Start off slow. Like, again, as this thing grows, one Bitcoin is one hundred thousand, one hundred and ten thousand dollars.
(14:00):
You know, in 10 years, that's going to be a couple million dollars.
So do you really need to still get to one or does 0.1 Bitcoin work for your specific goals?
So, again, just make sure you don't get over leveraged too much and that you you're taking the risk seriously because the worst thing you can do is be too ambitious, too lofty in your goals and then have to sell it, you know, at a local bottom.
(14:27):
and then you just see it start ripping and now you're left with less.
So just stay humble, stack stats, take it at your own pace.
But I'm going to contradict myself a little bit here.
I still think everyone should try to get to the left of the decimal.
I still think that should be everyone's goal.
But don't necessarily worry if you can't get to that, if that makes sense.
(14:49):
Just keep going slowly and steady.
hey coleman for some reason i can't approve texas toast request to come back up so just a heads up
there maybe why you try to figure that out since i can't do it um yeah i i'll just chime in on this
i think um i think too many people compare themselves to other people so that's why a lot
(15:13):
of people think oh man i'm too late they see you know the early editions of nerds and lambos um
And, you know, all these people have accumulated vast amounts of Bitcoin, you know, that shouldn't be talking about it in public.
But you run into this issue of comparing yourself to others.
(15:35):
And so I think each person or business or family office is, you know, as much as we say, like, you're going to get Bitcoin at the price you deserve.
You also have to think of it as make sure that you're just doing the best that you can with the capital that you have.
And so, you know, I can't tell you specifically if it's three months, six months, 12 months, one month, whatever it would be, you know, from a small business perspective.
(16:05):
But I can tell you it's good for you to get off zero as an organization.
It's good for you to get off zero as an individual.
And so really what you have to do is think about not everybody else.
You have to look inside your own situation and then do the best that you can with the capital that you have.
And it doesn't matter how much you have compared to other people.
(16:27):
It's really a game against yourself.
Overspending, we know.
Not saving, we know, leads to, you know, a lot of times massive amounts of debt.
and it doesn't help in terms of accumulating any type of savings.
And we know the best one is Bitcoin.
(16:48):
So I'll pause there.
But just those are kind of my thoughts as I was trying to fill in for while we were trying to get Texas back on stage.
Well, I appreciate that, Bob.
It looks like we got Texas back.
I see, Hunter, we have your hand up.
So good morning, sir.
Hey, good morning, guys.
(17:09):
Yeah, lots of good stuff.
I like what kind of Bob was touching on there, too, is, you know, not not coming at Bitcoin from a place of like desperation.
I tried to keep my debt managed and you know I been DCA for a long time And you can watch some of these videos where the Hopium just gets to astronomical levels of price predictions And you know for me I like the psychological effect of setting stacking goals
(17:34):
That's been very helpful in my journey.
But mostly just setting my DCA to an amount that I can go to sleep at night and not have to worry about,
is my bills going to get paid, and having the right time preference.
And over time, you know, hitting those stacking goals has really given me, you know, the hope for the future that, you know, Bitcoin is going to be something amazing.
(17:54):
But even if it's not, which I still think it is, not everything is riding on it because I've tried to, you know, create this life to where I'm not in this like debt prison.
And so I don't look at it from desperation.
I look at it from a positive, you know, look at this is going to be something amazing down the road.
(18:15):
Yeah, really good comments. One other thing I'll throw in is, you know, the only competition is, I did say, like, you know, you're not competing with everybody else.
The only competition there really is, is that we all know that there's a finite amount of this to go around.
(18:36):
And so the sooner you adopt it, the reason I said get off zero and figure out your accumulation plan is because obviously it's scarce.
And so we all need to be, well, if you understand it, take this lifeline for what it is.
(18:58):
It's right there for you.
Anybody can participate.
That's the great part.
And, you know, it's probably stuff we've all said or heard before, but maybe just a reminder here on this Thursday.
You know what lies beyond the beach, Bob?
Immortality. Take it. It's yours.
(19:23):
Hey, I'm going to ask if Gabe or Coinfather, I thought I saw him up here.
If y'all could get a chance to come up here.
I know that you were at Bitcoin Alaska.
So I'd love for if you could come up here and do a little recap of what it was like, what y'all experienced.
We didn't cover this yet.
Did we, Bob?
Do a recap on it?
(19:44):
No, I mentioned it on Monday.
And it would be great to have someone up.
I think maybe there's a little bit of the, you know, conference hangover.
So it's fine to give people a couple of days.
But here we are at Thursday.
We still haven't talked about it.
So I echo those calls for those guys to come up and chat with us about it.
(20:06):
Yeah, a little conference hangover, not to mention the time difference,
anywhere from three to four hours, depending on which side of the country you live on.
So I have to admit I had a lot of FOMO when I saw the pictures and the stuff going on.
I had to cancel my trip last minute just due to some unforeseen circumstances.
(20:27):
So definitely, if you can, I'd love for you to come up here.
It looks like we've got ITIOD that's going to request and share some of that.
So good morning, sir.
How are you doing?
(20:47):
I don't hear anything.
ITIOD, can you hear us?
yes i can hear you i didn't realize i was a speaker
are you good did you want to give a recap of how bitcoin alaska was that was amazing uh we had a
(21:08):
a wonderful time there uh the conference itself was was pretty awesome uh and then what was better
even was the ancillary get-togethers that we had.
It was really cool.
We did a polar punch, which was quite amazing and cold, and barbecue.
(21:33):
Some folks went to a karaoke night.
The camaraderie there was just absolutely amazing.
Had a wonderful time.
The scenery was awesome.
Lots of hiking done.
And then the conference itself was awesome.
It was mostly pure signal. You had folks like Alex Gladstein up there talking and then lots of young folks interested in Bitcoin, schools, colleges talking about curriculums in Bitcoin.
(22:08):
And then obviously, Alaska being historically a gold mining state.
Now, lots of Bitcoin mining talks as well, trying to get awareness to the benefits that Alaska can bring to Bitcoin mining.
So overall, I was there for a whole week and brought my son.
(22:32):
So very family friendly. Whale cruise was awesome.
We got to see two whales and two military planes flew over us, showing off as well.
That was pretty cool.
But yeah, no, I had a wonderful time.
Definitely want to do it again.
That's awesome.
I'm glad it was a great conference and shout out to Wade and everybody who helped get that conference going.
(23:00):
It did not look like it was very easy for him to accomplish everything.
So to see that it was so successful is amazing.
Coin Father, we have you up here as well.
Good morning, sir.
Did you want to add anything?
Yeah.
Can you hear me?
My voice is gone, so I've got a little bit of a cold since I've been back.
(23:21):
But, yeah, I mean, Odie pretty much summed up a lot of the conference.
I guess a shout out to the Bitcoin veterans
because maybe they called in that C-130 flyby.
And Wade did a great job putting on the conference
(23:41):
to pull in more people next year.
I think it needs to be in a bigger city, possibly Anchorage,
but that would be awesome to see that because that's where I'm from.
And karaoke night was awesome.
Tone Vase, man, he can cook.
If you guys didn't know that, he cooked amazing fish and steaks,
(24:03):
especially that last night.
We had the congressman baggage over as well at the end of the conference,
and we all got together and talked.
But, yeah, I'll step off the stage now.
I appreciate that.
(24:23):
and thank you for the summary
both of you
I believe the conference next year
is going to be
post July
but I think Wade is still trying to do it
in Juneau again
just for the elected officials
that are there
and I think that's home base for Wade as well
but if you're having a little FOMO
(24:45):
you want to go out there
bitcoinalaska.org
and I think in the next couple of weeks
they'll start having information
for next year's conference
I do want to remind everybody, if you could, if you haven't done so already, go ahead and retweet the link to this space.
Let's get some more listeners in here.
If you're new to this space, we do this every Monday through Friday at 10 a.m. Eastern Time.
(25:08):
I highly encourage you to go to BitcoinVeterans.org.
Click on that sign up link in the top right.
Fill out that information and join us.
Join the mission.
Join the cause.
but also you'll get connected with a wide variety of veterans that can help you with any type of
question you may encounter, whether it's to onboarding, which exchange to use, how to use
(25:32):
wallets, if you're new into mining, homesteading, homeschooling, fitness, name a topic. We're going
to have something to talk about that and that's going to be on our signal chats. But to add you
to that, you're going to go to bitcoinveterans.org and reach out to us so we can go ahead and hook
you up. Also, fountain.fm. We post these spaces over the last week up on fountain.fm, Bitcoin
(26:00):
veterans. Go ahead and subscribe to that to get notified. If you like what you're hearing, go ahead,
feel free to donate some stats. We use that to do good work in the name of Bitcoin veterans.
So gentlemen, I'll throw it back to y'all. Is there anything else you wanted to cover
that we haven't touched on yet,
or we can keep kind of moving on through some of the headlines.
(26:26):
Maybe we should kick it back around to everybody on the Bitcoin acquisition companies
or Bitcoin treasury companies and just see BFP, Texas, Hunter,
any thoughts or final thoughts on that topic?
You're breaking up on my end. Was that about Bitcoin treasury companies? Is that the question?
(26:51):
Yes, Hunter.
Yeah, I think it just needs to be reinforced how different Bitcoin is from these, you know, auxiliary Bitcoin things that you can do.
You know, Bitcoin's got properties that these things don't have.
So it's so important that you stack some Bitcoin before you even consider going down the Bitcoin treasury rabbit hole.
(27:12):
And I'm not a big like finance guy, tradition, tradify guy.
But once you hit certain stacking goals and you've got the funds for it, I mean, it is kind of like gambling with a company because at the end of the day, you know, they don't have the scarcity that Bitcoin has.
They don't have the permissionlessness that Bitcoin has and sensor resistance, all of that.
There's so many properties that Bitcoin has that these things don't have.
(27:35):
So don't get into those before you get Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is superior in every way.
Yeah, I mean, eventually everybody will become a Bitcoin.
Every company will be a Bitcoin treasury company.
I kind of think there should be a different name for these companies that don't have, you know,
a fundamental business outside of acquiring Bitcoin with debt.
(27:57):
But, yeah, it's just kind of a weird middle period where a lot of those are probably going to work out because of just how early and where we're at in the adoption curve.
A lot of those companies will do really well, but a lot won't.
(28:19):
and they'll go tits up at the wrong time,
and the solid ones will come out on the other side,
and everybody that was just stacking with excess cash along the way will be just fine.
TJM, we saw you just join us.
(28:41):
Good morning.
Can you find that unmute button?
Can you hear us, TJM?
He runs a Saturday morning space.
That's pretty good.
So I know he knows how to come off mute.
(29:01):
Maybe he's just having a connection issue there.
Hey.
As soon as I connected, I stopped hearing everyone.
I just wanted to say there is a name for the companies who don't have any
underlying business.
(29:21):
Bitcoin Treasury Company is just
a name for a zombie company that
has discovered Bitcoin.
I think that's
great that you bring that up.
There's
actual operating companies
and then if you invest
your property in Bitcoin,
(29:44):
at that point, I don't think
MNAP is ridiculous.
You have
your cash value, which you've always had, and then you have the operating
business above that. And people have
got it out there.
Yeah, I think that's a good way to start framing it for
(30:09):
people is adding the zombie, either Bitcoin zombie
treasury companies or zombie Bitcoin treasury companies,
just to kind of differentiate.
And it really highlights kind of what these companies are.
(30:29):
And again, if you don't trust the company, you're not sure,
you're never going to go wrong with just putting that money into Bitcoin.
Taking it off the exchange as soon as it clears,
putting it in your cold card wallet,
I'm telling you there's no safer bet than doing that.
Again, if you have some casino money you want to play around with, go for it.
But again, it's Bitcoin first.
(30:51):
Sorry, Bob, I didn't mean to talk over you.
No, no problem.
I do think that there's a lot of people out there who have acquired strategy and others in their IRAs because it's been difficult to buy spot Bitcoin.
A lot of people find it quite difficult.
(31:11):
And it is.
I mean, the paperwork is pretty insane.
But in order to get spot Bitcoin, you either have to find a custodian or you can create a self-directed IRA.
But the paperwork on that up until now has been pretty, pretty onerous.
(31:34):
And so we've been actually looking at trying to figure out a way to streamline that a little bit for people.
But yeah, more to come on that. I think as far as the the these companies go, again, I'll just say, like, you do have to assess the risk.
(31:55):
And most of us are just simple people and we're just better off buying Bitcoin.
You know, a lot of people will compare Bitcoin to real estate or to gold.
And, you know, when you start looking at like income producing rental properties, you have tenants, you have maybe management fees, you know, just your time.
(32:20):
and it's gotten pretty expensive to acquire properties too, right?
We've seen real estate prices go up.
So I think, you know, when you start comparing Bitcoin seriously to other assets,
including the treasury companies, you just have to say, like,
(32:42):
what are the pluses and minuses?
What are my risk tolerances?
What could go wrong?
and Bitcoin's the tried and true simple thing.
You can acquire it, hold it safely yourself
and really not think about it too much.
So I'll just kind of land my plan there on that one.
(33:09):
Really quick, my dogs are about to go crazy.
Someone just pulled in the driveway.
So I think something else, if we want to start changing the subject, I think it's a huge accomplishment.
But Unchained just did a billion dollars worth of lending with zero rehypothecation.
(33:29):
So I think that's something that we could probably talk on a little bit.
Yeah, I still have personally, and I'd love to hear others on the panel, their thoughts.
But, you know, the rates are still so high.
And sure, you could argue like, OK, Bitcoin, if I'm going to take a loan and get a return that's higher than 14 percent, then the interest rate makes sense.
(33:58):
Or if you say, hey, I can use my Bitcoin as collateral and 14 percent is nothing to pay compared to the taxes I'm going to have to pay because I have this massive gain that I'm going to get to avoid.
I don't know. For me, it's still really a tough pill to swallow based on where the rates are at.
(34:20):
But curious to hear others thoughts on that.
Do you know the top off the top of your head what their rate is?
I haven't looked in a little while, but I think it was somewhere around, depending on what exactly you're doing, it's 13.5 to 14.5.
But clearly, I mean, with a billion dollars in loan volume, there's demand there.
(34:43):
So, you know, somebody's using it or there are people using it.
So I not trying to knock it I just saying for me as I assess the risk and the structure and all of that it hard for me to swallow that Yeah for me these things are great tools for like very short term cash needs where you can you know just in a pinch if you need the cash and you don want to sell it and you know in the short to near term you going to be able to either get a different you know loan traditional loan with a lower interest rate or a you know loan against your property or any of these things
(35:27):
But those those other types of mortgages or loans, they take a decent amount of time and paperwork to get through.
So the Bitcoin loans are a simple, quick, easy thing.
What you don't want to do is you just, in my opinion, you don't want to get caught in servicing these types of loans for a long time.
(35:52):
It's kind of just like a short, quick fix that'll help you get to the next stage.
But yeah, at this interest rate, it's too high.
I mean, I'll be, I bet over the next year, they'll drop significantly as all these products
and the regulatory environment is paved.
(36:13):
Then we'll see some decent amount of competition and lower rates and kind of this free market
rate will, Bitcoin rate will come about.
Yeah, and I think that's the neat thing about this is that as there's more players coming into the game, just naturally things become more competitive.
(36:33):
So that rate has to come down if you want to try and be the person everybody utilizes.
And I think you can see that right now with Strike.
They're offering, I think, sub 10% loans for Bitcoin.
I'm not exactly sure. I imagine it's probably pretty similar to Unchained with the capital requirement.
(36:59):
So, Coleman, I went in, not to interrupt, but I went in and just tried to see in Strike.
I have the app. And in order to get their lowest rate, there's a couple of different structures that you have to do.
and one of them is you have to put up at least $4 million worth of Bitcoin
(37:24):
and take out at least a $2 million loan in order to get the lowest rate.
So it's much higher once you're in the normal scenarios
for most of us that are in this room, I think.
Hey, speak for yourself, sir.
No, I'm joking.
I wish I had $4 million of Bitcoin I could just put up
(37:46):
and not care if it got lost.
No, so that's interesting you bring that up.
So there's kind of that teaser, right?
But like Texas had said earlier,
unless it's kind of like an emergency,
you absolutely need to use it short term.
Just be hesitant with it.
Putting it up as collateral,
I think it's almost the same thing
(38:07):
as leaving on an exchange.
I don't think unchained capital
has had any issues with losing people's Bitcoin,
but I think there's a risk that you don't pay that loan back.
Bitcoin price crashes.
You don't have the collateral,
but keep your loan to value ratio at the right margins
(38:27):
and you could lose it all.
So I see we have a couple of hands up,
so I'll pass it over.
I think TJM, you were first and then ITOD.
First, go ahead.
yeah so um i think that's very interesting bob with uh needing four million dollars to get the
(38:49):
lowest rates that's uh and i agree if you're on twitter and you're looking at uh a lot of
bitcoiners who've been in this space for for many many many years and probably meet that criteria
they're all talking about uh getting loans against their bitcoin they're talking about the
treasury companies, as we were talking earlier, and buying those retirement funds and that kind of stuff.
(39:17):
To me, for myself and probably, you know, over 80 percent of the people here, we just need to get to one.
We need to just keep stacking sats and not trying to play the fiat games and getting sucked into what other people are doing.
(39:42):
Those other people probably do have $4 million in Bitcoin.
And at that point, yeah, you can play whatever fiat games you want.
But until then, get more Bitcoin and don't give it to people and don't lend your money to other people and other companies for them to buy their own Bitcoin.
Buy it yourself, get it yourself, take it into self-custody and then live off that later in the future.
(40:07):
But until you get to at least one, these games are not for us.
yeah i i agree 100 with what you said um a lot of this stuff isn't gonna be applicable to
the vast majority of us um looks like tjm dropped down
(40:29):
here we go bring you back up sir uh big one for presidents or texas do you have anything
you want to add on that?
I was just wondering if anyone could give
a very small and informative
what is of MNAV,
(40:49):
Modified Net Asset Value.
I know the lower the number,
the better.
Or actually, I'm not even sure about that.
If no one else wants to step up,
I'll take a quick stab at it.
I think it's just your MNAV is the multiple it trains your stock trades at to your total value, right?
(41:16):
So I'll use MicroStrategy as the example.
When their MNAV is one, that means that the Bitcoin that they have, sorry, or the assets they have are trading at par of what it should be.
When this MNAV is higher than one, it's trading, the stock value is trading higher than what their assets are.
And when it's below one, it's trading less than what their assets are.
(41:38):
If I am wrong on any of that, someone please correct me.
Okay, thanks.
That helps.
So it's kind of like a price to earnings multiple, but one being the bar or like the middle one.
You got it.
Yeah.
And what I'll say is like you see some of these companies like NVIDIA who are trading at 50 times earnings.
(42:02):
In fact, NVIDIA just went over $4 trillion yesterday in terms of market cap, so they were in the news.
But, you know, you've got to think about, like, the premiums people are paying for some of these companies.
And maybe it's warranted, maybe it's not.
But, you know, personally, I don't want to be investing in companies that have all these risks and have, you know, you're really overpaying.
(42:32):
So when you look at maybe something like a strategy being at, say, 1.7, 1.8, I haven't looked lately in terms of net asset value.
Like, yeah, I mean, you could argue that it's you're overpaying, but you could also say it's a bargain if you believe in the scarcity of Bitcoin and understand the scarcity of Bitcoin.
(42:58):
And that these companies are set up to continually accumulate and hold and never sell.
Then, you know, you can do your own research and figure out if that risk is good for you.
I don't think any of these metrics are perfect.
And so you just have to use your brain.
Part of it is playing everyone else saying like, at what, at what number MNAV multiple
(43:24):
does the rest of the market say this isn't worth it anymore and they stopped buying it.
So it is a little bit of a game.
There's a lot of different ways to think about it.
I'll, I'll stop there.
I just wanted to jump in on, and I'm going to keep my thoughts straight.
(43:50):
First off, it is an asset measure.
It is a balance sheet metric that looks at the Bitcoin you have relative to the market cap of the company.
That is fundamentally different for price of earnings, which is an income sheet or income statement measure,
which is looking at what is the market cap or price of the stock relative to the annual earnings or period earnings.
(44:22):
So those are two fundamental things.
of things.
My first strategy
is actually that people
will not understand
and go
to MNAV
(44:43):
because they're thinking
that, like,
Christ,
the other thing is,
like I said,
the MNAV
is a matter of
what has to
say,
hold
to market cap
or what
Bitcoin is able to
That is the word
(45:06):
in their business.
Now,
we've been discussing around Apple
and their cash hoard over...
Hey, TJ,
I think your Bluetooth is
really
bad. I'm not sure.
(45:29):
I think what you're saying
is they're two different...
Yeah, I think what he's saying is the MNEV is valuing the assets,
and the price-to-earnings multiple is more so valuing the earnings.
And so we're looking at these companies in two different ways as far as metrics.
(45:53):
So I kind of got what he was saying through the matrix,
But I think that's a good way to look at it.
Yeah, it's a good point.
But I do wonder, you know, like if you have a zombie company that doesn't really have any way to go higher in terms of earnings,
(46:16):
and their core business is now set up to just acquire this pristine asset,
I think the whole reason for this MNEV metric is to give people some sort of a semblance of measurement on how they're progressing.
(46:39):
Obviously, we know they're not making earnings because the underlying company is a zombie company.
Maybe it's growing incrementally, but it's probably not keeping up with debasement, money printing, inflation, all of those things.
And so then you have to somehow measure the underlying treasury.
(47:03):
Right. And so it's kind of an interesting new metric overall, because you don't see companies usually putting capital into acquiring tons of tons of assets.
They're usually investing in their profitable business operation.
And so I think it's a good point, but you need some way to measure these folks.
(47:30):
And so then the question becomes, you know, do you want to be investing in NVIDIA at
you want to be investing in a company who is at uh you know if all of their assets got liquidated
knowing that the asset is bitcoin um you want to be overpaying for that um and again keeping
(47:56):
in consideration that they bought all that with with debt and you know the risks associated with
So it's a good discussion.
Yeah, I believe some of that cut out a little bit for me,
but I believe that we are in like not even the early innings where the
(48:16):
players are still warming up on the field for the transition of companies
moving over to a Bitcoin balance sheets.
So I think these are just what people are trying,
how people are trying to figure out how to value companies,
that are using Bitcoin as a treasury asset because, you know,
(48:37):
obviously the best companies are going to be ones that are earning the most money
and saving in Bitcoin.
So an Amazon that's using Bitcoin as their treasury asset is going to destroy the old Amazon.
So I think that's what we're moving towards is a different paradigm of Wall Street.
(49:02):
Yeah, not to change the subject. Hopefully I'm coming in okay. I apologize, guys. I'm traveling here this morning. But not to change the subject too much. BlackRock came out yesterday and said that their Bitcoin ETF has a lot less assets in it, but is way more profitable than their six, I think they have six trillion in their S&P 500.
(49:32):
ETF and their Bitcoin ETF has far less in it, obviously, and it's a lot more profitable.
So I think that's waking some people up on Wall Street and certainly some interesting news.
I wonder if those premiums will come down over time, where as the assets grow, more people go into it,
(49:58):
more competition, maybe more competition comes in, they'll have to lower their fee.
And but for now, I think it's making people pay attention and maybe even say they want to get into the game.
A couple of questions for you with that, Bob.
How and guesstimate, how long until we start seeing some of these ETFs get engulfed by the larger ones?
(50:23):
Because I think there is nine or ten out there.
when are they going to start just kind of getting acquired by the other ones?
Yeah, it's a great question.
I actually think that there's a possibility of expansion of ETFs
(50:44):
before we see any type of consolidation
just because of the custody fee that can be charged or the management fee.
So I actually can make a case for some of the big guys that we haven't seen that have other ETFs that haven't created a Bitcoin ETF yet.
Now look at this and say, gosh, we really have to educate ourselves if we haven't already and get into this game.
(51:12):
And, you know, they're probably going to be able to be profitable even at a lower expense ratio.
And that will drive pressure for the bigger names, even though like BlackRock's a big name.
Fidelity is the second largest. There's other large ones out there.
(51:33):
They'll all have to drop their price as more competition comes in.
So I think we're actually going to be in a period of expansion of additional ETFs for a little while before any type of consolidation occurs.
But that could be a bad take in a few days or weeks as well when somebody gives it up or sells out to one of the bigger guys.
(52:02):
So we'll see. But I don't know.
It just would stand to reason for me, just looking at it, that we get more choices in
the short term.
I have a follow question with you My understanding of the way that an ETF works is the larger the ETF or the more that they control and the more I guess dollar amount that they have the more attractive they are to investors
(52:29):
Correct? Yeah, it depends on the pools of capital that you're going after. And so what I guess
where I'll maybe kind of lean into your question a little bit is that it depends on who the ETF is
actually going after. So like BlackRock and Fidelity are mainly, you know, institutional,
(52:56):
but Fidelity does have a lot of people investing in their ETFs, maybe by number, but not by dollar
amount just directly through their platform. And so, yeah, I think it really depends how these ETFs
are set up and who they're targeting and what capital they're targeting. So I'll pause there.
(53:23):
No, that's perfect. Because then my next point that I would make is Grayscale. It has one of
the highest fees and they had the initial sell-off when everything kind of rolled out.
But over the last couple of months, they've just kind of been hovering right where they're at.
And I think they are the most profitable ETF, even though they don't hold the most,
(53:45):
they just make the most money because they have the higher fee set.
So I guess my question would be, would BlackRock or Fidelity necessarily
have to lower their fees to be more competitive just simply because they have such a large moat,
They're just that much more attractive to the capital that they're trying to attract.
Yeah, I mean, I think Fidelity and BlackRock are clear winners here.
(54:09):
But if you get other ETFs that are launched by companies like Vanguard or, you know, some of the other big asset allocators that are going to be able to bring in their own customers.
Like if Vanguard says, hey, we're seeing some runoff of clients and runoff of capital to the BlackRock and the Fidelity ETFs, when they launch their own, whether it's defensive or offensive, they're going to have to do something starting out from square one to gain traction with those institutional clients.
(54:50):
and probably the best way to do it is to make it a cheaper fee.
So I do think the fees would come down in that case.
As it relates to Grayscale, they have had an application with the SEC
to convert that over from the trust to an ETF.
(55:10):
And recently, I think it was this week, I saw it's shelled again.
So they're not able to transition that.
But you can see where they would have to, at some point, if they're trying to attract new capital, decrease their fees.
Slowly, that will bleed.
(55:32):
The reason that most of that money is not and it's tied up in there is because people don't want to pay the taxes.
They've been holding on to this for quite some time.
They got in early.
Bitcoin's gone up.
The shares of the trust have gone up.
And so they don't want to, because there's no in-kind redemption right now where you can just withdraw the Bitcoin.
(55:54):
It is a taxable event to get out.
And so you're far better off, you know, in most cases of people paying the high fees to Grayscale rather than cashing it out and moving it to a lower cost provider because of your tax consequences.
So I'll again pause and see if you have any other follow ups.
(56:18):
No, I don't have any follow-ups on that unless someone up on the stage does.
But just for anybody that was wondering, I just pulled it up now.
So this could be off by a little bit.
But BlackRock, Fidelity, and Grayscale, the three largest by a lot, by over 100,000 before they get to the fourth place one,
(56:42):
almost hold a combined 1 million coins.
So these ETFs are definitely gaining traction, and they're gobbling up a large portion of the supply.
So at some point, there should be some kind of, quote-unquote, supply shock where we'll kind of just be – the sellers will run out and there'll be more buyers.
(57:09):
So just something to be aware of.
yeah but but more importantly it's um it's not a good thing because it makes makes things more
centralized and like having an entity holding so much bitcoin it's not good for decentralization
and people need to understand that they still need or have a large portion of their stack
(57:36):
in cold storage Bitcoin.
And I'm just concerned about the new people
who are getting to Bitcoin.
They don't want the hassle.
And so they just go into the ETF
to get exposure.
But they need to understand the sovereignty
because if you were to go to a different country,
you can't bring your ETF with you, right?
You can't use it to spend.
(57:57):
You're missing that power
that what Bitcoin brought to everybody.
And so not only do you get that,
but it's imperative,
like imperative that people have their own Bitcoin to keep the system decentralized, right, the way it's meant to be.
And so I think that's some of the communication that as Bitcoiners, we need to not only just put into practice for ourselves,
(58:20):
but to communicate that to the other people.
That's why, like, for example, MicroStrategy getting like so much Bitcoin,
Bitcoin, people buy strategy because they're like, oh, well, I can get exposure to this
company that actually is holding the Bitcoin.
And that's a completely different thing.
People, for me, like I don't hold any treasury stocks and I don't recommend people do either
(58:46):
due to various counterparty risks and all of these other factors.
No, I say be your own treasury.
Why not just stack yourself, right?
You can be your own treasury.
It's like, why are you giving a company your money to buy Bitcoin when you can just use that same money to buy your own Bitcoin?
Right. It's just weird.
(59:08):
So from that perspective, that's my take on this whole sort of like centralization aspect with ETFs and these treasury companies that are just growing in number.
So we have to remember what's going on there.
Oh, go ahead, Bob.
I'll push back a little bit. I know we're coming up to the end of the hour here, but so I want to be respectful of people's time. But I'll push back a little bit. I think really, I don't I don't I don't see that. I mean, I understand the idea, but I don't think that it's it's really centralizing Bitcoin just because of how it works.
(59:48):
Maybe it's centralizing the ownership.
And I do agree with you that, you know, people should be using Bitcoin as freedom money and not number go up money.
So self-custody Bitcoin is the best way to go.
But I think what the ETFs do is address is one of the biggest problems that still remain for people.
(01:00:11):
We talk about it all the time that you should be self-custodying Bitcoin.
And yet there's still a lot of people who, while they've acquired Bitcoin, some of them a long time ago on exchanges, they use the exchange as a bank, as a custody provider, as someone who's holding on to their asset for them because maybe it's too challenging.
(01:00:35):
They're scared. They don't know who to trust.
And so what really the ETFs are doing is being custody providers for people in the traditional system.
And so, yeah, I don't I don't see the centralization risk.
What's happening is they're driving up price because of the supply and demand dynamic.
(01:00:59):
and that's a bigger concern from people's mindsets,
just like, hey, I'm too late, I can't afford this.
And if they never start acquiring it or getting off zero
and then learning how to self-custody it,
we could see some where you would wish you had,
(01:01:22):
where you had permissionless money that you could use
and not have these intermediaries or have to ask the permission of your government or a financial institution.
So I'll let other people chime in on that.
But I think this is a good discussion.
It's fun to get different angles and viewpoints on it.
(01:01:47):
Yeah, and I'm going to echo what you just said, Bob.
And I think if you have a fear that Bitcoin is being too centralized by these entities, we have only ourselves to blame.
And I really do mean that.
Blame yourself.
How many times have you gone out and you've had the opportunity to pay somebody in Bitcoin, but you chose to pay in cash?
(01:02:11):
How many of you have ordered a solo Satoshi Bitcoin miner?
And instead of clicking the pay in Bitcoin option, you just used your credit card.
And so, again, this is peer to peer. It starts with us. And I'll use Sailor as an example. When it was pizza day, everyone was saying going out and pay for Bitcoin and pay for your pizza and Bitcoin. He said, don't keep the Bitcoin, pay for it in cash.
(01:02:36):
And if we really want this to take over and do what it does, we need to change this mindset.
Spend your sats, replace your sats, go to the exchange.
You're spending $50 on pizza.
Go to the exchange by $55, by $60.
But if you want this to grow and you want this to be adopted, you have to use it.
(01:02:56):
Yes, Bitcoin is a great store of value, but it's not going to become what it is in your lifetime
if it's just sitting as a 24-seed phrase in your head.
You need to get out there.
You need to start spending good.
Go ahead, Bitcoin.
I think if you're fully invested, as I am, I don't hold dollars.
(01:03:19):
So I have to get rid of some of my Bitcoin to actually get some dollars to buy things.
So if anyone's accepting Bitcoin when I'm buying it, that's the first thing I would use.
That's just me, though.
So I see we have 23.
And I don't mean to pick on you, Tao, by anything.
(01:03:41):
I think I just want to make sure that everyone understands that we all need to do our part.
We need to make sure that we are spending Bitcoin and we're trading with it and we're using it the way it's supposed to.
And that's how we beat the system.
23 Skidoo, I'm going to give it to you to kind of start.
Ask your question or give a comment and we'll start wrapping up the show afterwards.
(01:04:02):
Yeah. Hey, good morning. Yeah. My comment on the exchanges and a little bit of back and forth between Bob and Val, you know, I'm not speaking on anything technical here, how it would work.
But the concern with the ETF is on a cultural level. You know, if the spirit of Bitcoin being what it was when it got started and I've been watching it since 2012 and got a little bit in 13 and then 14 and 15.
(01:04:28):
But, you know, the spirit of Bitcoin risks definitely being lost.
The decentralization, the cypherpunk, the sovereign individual spirit of it.
And that to me is the greater risk with things like ETFs and all the financialization of Bitcoin is that the more the culture at large, kids being born now, you know, kids who are 10, you know, who are about to get into Bitcoin or something like that.
(01:04:57):
if they only are experiencing Bitcoin through the mainstream media ETFs,
where will that take Bitcoin?
Because if you just keep proving that out logically down the road,
there's going to be a shift, a change,
as the spirit of people coming into Bitcoin don't really care.
(01:05:19):
You could say it's an agalist.
It's similar to democracy.
I just threw in the wrong word there.
You know, what happens with democracy? People take it for granted. They don't they don't get involved because they just assume they're always free.
They just assume Bitcoin is a good thing will always work, but they lose it through its its cultural financialization and, quote unquote, the man taking it under his wing and turning it into what he wants.
(01:05:47):
Technically speaking, I don't know how that will actually all take place, but it's more of an intuition than anything.
I think that was a great way to start ending up the show.
We all need to take it and do what we want and do what we know with it.
Go back to the roots of what Bitcoin is.
(01:06:09):
And everyone's situation is different.
I get if you have a retirement account and you want to use that to get Bitcoin exposure, again, go for it.
But that shouldn't be a replacement for cold storage Bitcoin in your cold card.
There is no replacement for it.
And don't be scared to spend sats when you need to and when you want to trade for it.
(01:06:30):
Because, again, that's how we get this number to go up.
So I'm going to throw it around the horn one last time for anybody who wants to get any final comments, concerns, suggestions, anything off their chest.
And then I will wrap up the show.
Man, it was so refreshing to hear that silence at the start of the show.
No music echoing in my brain.
(01:06:54):
So I'm going to suggest no more music.
If you disagree, whether you're on stage or in the audience, give us a thumbs down so we can see that you vehemently disagree.
Some people actually would like to hear classical music in the morning.
We're taking that under consideration.
(01:07:15):
It really just depends on your mood, I think.
And I've seen people all over the board with what they want to hear.
those are my final thoughts
but I hope everybody enjoys the new
all-time highs
I think we're going to see a lot more of this
and yeah
stack while you still can
I got two comments
(01:07:41):
one to the music
I really love the
traditional intro for this show
but it does take a
while for a show that's only an hour
starting it just right off seems seems better to me but that's just my thought uh my second comment
is look out for the bitcoin alaska 2026 uh it was an amazing time had a great time there and uh
(01:08:07):
uh if you see it jump on it get on there uh and and but hopefully we get we get more folks into uh
into juno in 26.
All right. Well, I'm going to go wrap it up. Yeah. I think, uh, I think the audio,
(01:08:28):
it sounds good, um, when it's good. And then it sounds horrible when it's going in and out.
Um, so we'll just go ahead and I'm just been adding it into the, uh, the fountain, uh, podcast,
um, at the end of the day. So, um, I think let's go ahead and we'll just play around a bit and
we'll get your feedback. Um, but we can't do that without y'all commenting and sharing and messaging
us. So please continue to do that. I do want to thank every single one of you who tuned in today.
(01:08:53):
Everyone who's the first time, go to BitcoinVeterans.org, click on that sign up link,
put in your information. We're not going to solicit that. We're going to put you and connect
you with one of our groups, answer any questions you have, and make sure that your onboarding
experience and your journey with Bitcoin is successful. And so I do want to thank everybody
(01:09:13):
who came up here and spoke today huge shout out to bob for carrying this and and putting all the
weight on his shoulder so thank you so much we do this every monday through friday at 10 a.m
eastern time so i expect to see all of you tomorrow morning but whatever you do today
do not coin it's like trying to use a paper straw to stir concrete
(01:09:43):
Thank you.
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