September 3, 2025 • 61 mins
Join Bob and the panel as they discuss why the hard cap of 21 Million Bitcoin is important
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(00:00):
Thank you.
(00:30):
all right guys and gals good morning it feels like a monday thank you for joining us on bitcoin
veteran spaces number 255 where we talk about bitcoin all right i'll be your host this morning
(00:52):
my name is bob van kirk joined by texas toast who will be your co-host we also have neil up here
captain trips trying to get a few others but welcome welcome thank you for listening as always
thanks for popping in here and hopefully we have a good discussion today before we get started let's
(01:13):
turn the page on that paper calendar that you all have because today is tuesday september 2nd 2025
let's take a look at the time chain a little bit of a pump here this morning we are at bitcoin
block height number 912,884 with the Bitcoin price just below 111,000.
(01:37):
It means you could still pick up just around 901 sats per US dollar.
Wow, that's great stuff.
Announcements.
Let's take a look at a couple of them.
Bitcoin veterans, as most of you all know, are having their second annual summit on November
10th and 11th in beautiful Nashville, Tennessee.
(01:57):
Day one is going to be the conference day.
And day two will be range day.
Looking for people who want to get involved?
Visit BitcoinVeterans.org forward slash Summit 2025.
Looking for speakers, panel topics, volunteers, and attendees.
(02:20):
So, yeah, check that out.
my phone is doing all kinds of funny things so give me a thumbs up if you guys can hear me
all right I think so but just want to make sure there we go perfect all right let's go around
the horn this morning and say good morning to everyone who is always coming up here and helping
(02:46):
me out with this space Texas Toast how was your long weekend how you doing this morning good
morning. Things are a little weird out there. I got this weird feeling. We got Bitcoin pumping.
We got gold pumping. We got, is Trump dead? You know, we got this weird announcement coming at
like two o'clock today. You know, there's no end in sight. They're going to turn Gaza into like
(03:12):
an AI web three smart city. You know, that's pretty odd and I'm dignified, but yeah. So just
some weird feelings, the bond market starting to get really crazy. So, you know, I'm here for the
ride. Yeah. Very good. Thanks for bringing those things up. I'm not sure about all of this stuff.
(03:41):
I think it is kind of wild.
Short week, though, so we've got to squeeze a lot in.
Neil, how are you this morning?
I'm doing very good.
It's kind of weird.
Sometimes the more noise that is around, the harder you focus in on actual signal.
Like, I don't know.
(04:02):
Sometimes the noise distracts and it obfuscates, but sometimes it really does make you just
focus in on what's important.
So that's kind of where I'm at today with my life.
Yeah, good stuff.
Captain Trips, good morning.
Happy Tuesday, even though it feels like a Monday.
Good morning, good morning.
(04:24):
It feels like a Monday.
A new month, too.
Last through the year.
Yeah, I get the sense that something's building up.
Not sure what.
Yeah, well, thanks for coming on again.
let's take a look at the topic of the day. I wanted to talk to you guys about something that
(04:45):
I think is obvious, but just in speaking with family, different people over the weekend,
I think that there's a lot of people out there who are bad at math or just really don't
understand the significance of Bitcoin's hard supply cap. And so what I wanted to do this
(05:10):
morning, plenty of topics we could talk about, obviously, and we can take this one kind of
anywhere you'd like. But I do think that it's interesting, like how most people out there,
especially folks, you know, maybe sometimes even in the space that come in new and are listening
to this stuff we talk about all the time, just miss the importance of this fact.
(05:37):
A lot of people come for number go up and don't really realize how important it is to
have this 21 million supply.
Now, that's the way I'll frame it, but maybe some people would want to come up and say the
supply cap doesn't really matter.
But for me, and I think a lot of us, it is important and significant. And so I wanted to go around the horn and get the panel's thoughts on whether or not 21 million is truly significant, or if it just is one of those properties that maybe eventually will be changed.
(06:17):
21 million is everything, Bob.
It's what gives everybody hope that it will remain the same and not change and be like an immovable foundation for the rest of humanity.
(06:37):
That's 21 million.
Yeah, it is, I think, significant for a lot of reasons.
And I know Neil always brings up things kind of like from first principles.
And so, you know, as we kind of peel back the onion on all the noise, as you kind of mentioned, Neil, what comes to mind?
(07:09):
Like, what do you how do you think about it when you're considering the fact that Bitcoin is this fixed supply asset, this network?
How do you think about it?
Yeah, so 21 million fixed supply is it's not necessary for it to be, quote unquote, a moral money.
(07:36):
like the immutable part that it doesn't so if they had an issuance like the issuance schedule
being immutable that's what makes it quote-unquote moral like not changing in that sense but when
they when you go to actually fix it with the you know uh asymptotic you know uh you know approaching
(07:56):
the the hard cap limit like that's actually what makes it like transcend like multiple levels higher
than just being merely moral money.
You know, like gold being, you know, like digging it out of the earth.
It has this like, you know, its issuance, its supply increase is tethered to natural
(08:20):
law, objective reality.
Like you have to actually go work to dig it out, do all this stuff.
So it's like in like that's kind of I mean, that's moral.
You know, it's not it's not you're not making it up from nothing.
You're not it's not from fiat.
It's not you're not you're not contradicting, you know, a value proposition itself with with that's with gold.
(08:44):
So like even if Bitcoin adopted just, you know, this fixed 2 percent issuance, every block has 10 Bitcoin forever.
You know, it's like that's still better than fiat, you know, but but I'm just so happy that he actually did.
satoshi fixed it to the 21 million because that like i don't know it's hard to put into
(09:06):
like you have to create that like uh i don't know you talk about that foundation like it just makes
it from a good foundation a good moral thing to just like something so just like diamond you know
just uh so i i'm really happy that he did fix it even though i would say like it wouldn't be
(09:27):
necessary to still be better than Fiat. But I don't know if that makes any sense at all.
It's a low bar, Neil. It's a really low bar.
Yeah, Fiat is the low bar.
Yeah, we're kind of rearranging the stage here. Would love to have people come up and chime in on
(09:49):
this. Even if you've never spoken in this space before, would love to hear from some new folks.
hit that microphone button in the bottom left otherwise throw your questions in that purple
pill in the bottom right you can hit on that and type in there if you've never done that before
and then lastly guys share the space would love to get more people in here on this beautiful
(10:11):
Tuesday morning um yeah I like this idea Neil um and I wonder like sometimes we attach things
to other things and i don't know this idea of morality is is interesting i'm not sure like
could you tease that out a little bit like how do you how do you see this fixed supply
(10:36):
being moral like tease that out for the audience a little bit if you don't mind okay so um
if you i mean going back to aristotle aquinas like these ancient you know ancient principles that
they teased out is like all money is ethical first. So it's like to exchange an object value
(11:01):
for value between two people, both people have to presuppose some sense of honesty, justice,
fairness. So the ethics is what enables the economic exchange in the first place.
So the more solid you make that ethical foundation, the more powerful the money can be.
(11:23):
um so if you have a system that you know here's some here's some uh loose rules for how we create
money and how we create value in the world and then we exchange it it's like all right well
that's like uh i don't know it's like if we're bowling you know we don't we don't have any uh
(11:45):
no bumpers up like yeah it's still a fair game you can play it and like it'll work but like
if you just go ahead and put the bumpers up, you know, and you just say nothing can go into the gutter, you're just going to become a more powerful bullet.
Like you can't go in the gutter.
(12:06):
And like that's what like the immutability does.
It puts those bumpers up.
But what I think in teasing out like what does the fixed supply do beyond just its quote unquote moral is it maximizes the time preference.
Like it makes like the coefficient in front of all the variables.
(12:31):
It just puts, you know, it puts time, the importance of time preference to the end.
So that makes all investment, that makes all, like you're investing in other people, you're investing in ventures, you're investing in artwork or time, like where you're putting your time, it forces you to think about it in a, in like the way that creates the most value in the world.
(12:56):
Like, you know, people are always talking about fiat food or fiat fitness or all these other like fiat type of things as like this derogatory statement for just low time preference, stupid decisions, like low quality things.
Well, it's like that's a function of the money because it makes people have these high time preferences.
(13:20):
And it's like they sacrifice the quality value over time for just short-term immediacy.
And it's like when a whole society does that, it just turns everything to shit.
That's also the reason the roads are always fucked up.
There's like everything crumbles because no one can invest and allocate capital properly in a way that's beneficial for society, you know, to continue.
(13:48):
And how I like the idea of thinking about how am I going to what life, what society am I going to pass on to my children?
Well, my grandchildren, my great grandchildren, like thinking in those terms, like that's how you get to a beautiful society is because generation after generation.
isn't thinking about how can I, you know, get my, you know, my rocks off right now, right here,
(14:13):
right now, get my lollipops and fancy pants. Like I'm focused on making things quality and investing,
getting the absolute most out of the capital, the absolute most out of my time that I possibly can.
And like, if, when everybody thinks that way, that that's how you build a great civilization.
So I don't know, did that, if that was helpful.
(14:37):
Yeah, I really like that. Did want to give Texas Toast and Captain Trips a chance to chime in, but it did make me think of a couple of things.
I'll let you guys go first if you have anything. Otherwise, I can kind of riff off of that a little bit.
All right. Not all at once. No, I guess what I was thinking is I agree. I like a lot of what you said, Neil.
(15:00):
The one thing that I always have an issue with is trying to, I guess, think about the differences between morality and incentives.
So I think that maybe the supply cap is a good basis for us to be more moral as humans or individuals And maybe that kind of what you saying I don think that Bitcoin in and of itself
(15:32):
is moral or immoral.
I think that kind of what we're talking about,
like your example of the roads
is that people would make decisions based on incentives.
And if the incentives are there for you
to hold on to an asset or to not spend it,
because it is fixed and will only go up in value versus everything else, then that kind of changes how you operate in the world.
(16:01):
And so, you know, on the other side of that, again, just using the roads as an example, you know, if roads are only going to last a certain amount of time,
and it really doesn't matter because our election cycles or whoever's responsible for the roads, you know, builds crappy roads,
(16:23):
then, you know, I guess where I have trouble is, like, is that based on incentives for the people in charge?
Or is that truly like a morality question? Does that make sense?
yeah so i i think the thing to parse out between incentives and morality is like so
(16:44):
bitcoin itself is it's it's not moral or like what is morality so morality is
the identification of an end like it's it's it's your ability to choose to aim at to choose
a direction to shoot for an outcome.
(17:05):
So the domain of choosing ends is how Aquinas would define the moral domain.
So Bitcoin is just a tool.
A hammer is not moral.
But what you do with the hammer, if I hit you in the head with it, that's a moral act.
If I build a house with it, that's a moral act.
Like, so it's what we do with Bitcoin that and and I guess in this.
(17:31):
So when I'm saying Bitcoin is moral, I'm I'm already like it's money.
So it's it's presupposing that we're exchanging it between two people.
So it's like when I say Bitcoin is moral, I'm talking about how it enables two people to connect, to transact at scale, at a societal level that is immutable.
(18:00):
it's uh and what why that's important is like i don't have like trust don't verify i don't have to
trust that you are scheming me that you are going to take advantage of me in this interaction
like when we're when we're trading you know like you can't you know there's no fool's bitcoin you
know like if you send me the bitcoin i have the bitcoin and that can't be cheated that can't be
(18:23):
manipulated. So it's like that the verification of in the I guess you could say that it insulates
the transaction from corruption. Maybe that's one way to say like we're connecting like like
wires with electricity. And, you know, the your your extension cord wouldn't work very well if
(18:45):
you didn't have like that plastic coating around it. You know, like you need to insulate that
connection so you can transfer that value efficiently and without all the craziness.
So it's like the incentive then is to, if you try to cheat it, you get burned.
(19:08):
Like, so you could think of incentives as more like the outcome or the consequence of
particular strategies.
But when I'm talking about just the morality of Bitcoin itself, like it's just saying like it's the principles and the way that it protects and preserves them from corruption that makes it makes you and I transact morally.
(19:35):
So like it can't we can't ever just push people, separate people from Bitcoin.
Like people using Bitcoin is what makes it money.
I don't know. I'm I don't know if I'm making any sense.
No, I love it. And I think the reason that this topic is fun is because it is difficult.
(20:00):
And so I think there's so many different angles to it.
And, you know, if we can cause people to think a little bit this morning, I know it's a Monday, but it's a Tuesday.
But I do think that, like, this is, it is quite the interesting topic.
And I think maybe if I were to simplify what you're saying, which I really like, is that the communication of value in Bitcoin that we're using, because we're using it as money, is based on truth.
(20:34):
And so as long as you have that truth, you can't fake it, right?
And so when the purity of that truth comes through in that communication of the transfer of value, it allows people to operate under a different regime.
(20:54):
And I think that's maybe a little deep for Tuesday, but it's fun to think about a little bit because I do think it opens up a whole new world for people.
I do see TXMC just came up and appreciate that. One of the things that, you know, I think we can compare Bitcoin versus a lot of things.
(21:19):
And thanks, sir, for coming up. Feel free to kind of chime in wherever you'd like.
But one of the things that maybe would come to mind with a finite supply or a supply cap is, you know, Bitcoin has often been referred to as digital gold.
And I think, you know, with gold being at new all time highs, ripping, you know, it might be interesting to kind of really go through this comparison or make sure that this analogy is accurate, which I think it's not.
(21:56):
But I'm curious, like, what do we think about gold and Bitcoin?
Like some people are fans of both.
And some people are saying, hey, you know, it's a digital world.
We're not going back to analog.
Gold has its flaws.
And so I'm Bitcoin only.
What are your guys' thoughts on this comparison between Bitcoin and gold as it relates to the scarcity or the supply cap?
(22:24):
I do have crickets and good morning TXMC how are you
hey Bob I'm doing all right man just uh had a very minor surgery a couple days ago and I haven't
been able to eat very much so I've been super low energy so sorry if uh I sound a little under the
(22:50):
weather, it's a lot easier to type than talk. But I thought this was an interesting topic. And so I
wanted to just add a couple of thoughts. And, you know, I don't know if I'm right or wrong. This is
just my opinion. But I don't think there's any inherent morality to Bitcoin or gold or anything
like that. It is a tool for facilitating human interaction, you know, and the ledger and the
(23:18):
design of Bitcoin. It's immutable. It's transparent. Once you've made your transaction,
you can verify it and know that it is final. If you have your key, you know that you have the BTC
and it can't be taken from you. And so in those ways, it is more, I guess you could say moral.
I wouldn't use that word, but it has some stability and verifiability to it. It can be
(23:45):
relied upon, but it doesn't guarantee that the exchange itself is honest. If you use your Bitcoin
to buy a car, you could still be sold a lemon. If you use your Bitcoin to buy a watch, you could
still be sold a fake watch. It still comes down to the interaction between the two humans. And
that's true with any monetary standard. Bitcoin doesn't change people. It just provides an extra
(24:11):
a layer of verifiability and some interesting traits in the sense that it has a limited supply
and it has this native payment infrastructure that you can transact with it without asking
anyone else's permission or using any kind of intermediary. Like that is very unique.
And I think it gives it some kind of some element of value beyond other forms of media. But
(24:35):
But I also, I just personally am not a big buyer of the morality talk about Bitcoin that I think, no offense to any of the conversation that was going here.
I think you guys have interesting ideas.
It's just my take.
But in a lot of Bitcoin spaces and writings and podcasts and whatever, there's a lot of talk about how people think that because its supply is programmable, it's codified, you know, forever into the future, that that inherently changes or alters the trajectory of civilization or the way we exchange with each other.
(25:20):
And I really just don't believe that because at the end of the day, human nature doesn't really change a whole lot.
And there are still bad actors.
And I mean, Bitcoin is trustless by nature.
You don't even know who you're selling it to half the time, unless you're doing a face-to-face interaction or you are buying and selling from a known vendor of some kind.
(25:42):
And if you're just trading your BTC on some kind of an exchange, even a decentralized one, you have no idea who your counterparty is.
You're just trusting the protocol to verify that the sale is completed.
You could be trading Bitcoin with a child porn purveyor to use a topic that's been going around lately in Bitcoin or a fucking drug lord or something.
I'm just making up examples.
(26:04):
But like those are not moral exchanges just because of the nature of Bitcoin.
I think that because the monetary system for the last century has been very unfair to savers, I think there is a desire to see the design antithesis of fiat, which is what Bitcoin is.
(26:29):
It's literally the opposite of fiat.
I think there is an inherent desire to see the opposite of fiat as the solution to it.
But my perspective is that it just represents the other extreme polarity and introduces, if it were to be the central money in an economy, and anyone of you who follow me and see my posts, I've talked about this a lot, I think it just introduces a whole other different set of potential problems or hurdles that we'd have to work through and that it isn't just naturally the best solution.
(27:03):
And I don't want to derail this into some other thing, but I think that the supply cap is an interesting trait to kind of tie it back to the topic here.
I think the supply cap is an interesting trait.
It's certainly like a selling point for Bitcoin.
It's something that's got me interested in the beginning.
Like, oh, what is this thing that has programmable issuance that's asymptotically going to zero over the next century?
(27:28):
That's really fucking cool.
So, but that's kind of as far as I take it.
I really don't see how it puts us on a different, like, trajectory in the way that we exchange with each other.
Yeah, I like that take.
I mean, I think we are, you know, I think you can argue, and as we did, that there is a, maybe there is a morality to it.
(27:59):
But I think, yeah, where I was coming from is morality is needs to be ascribed to humans.
And so, you know, you wonder if things are a little bit more a little bit more fair.
I don't know. I'd have to think about this some more, but I do see Neil's hand.
So I'd love to get his his response.
(28:21):
Yeah. Yeah. No, I liked what what TXMC was saying.
And it just made me like here again, like this is always like we're parsing out and we're trying to like get get the nuanced principles out.
And it's like so with the way he's describing, like I agree with basically everything he was saying, like my I would just frame what so like what morality is.
(28:45):
It's like so we're all these fish. Right. And what I'm saying is when we're doing anything economically, morality is the water.
like it's we're not saying we're going to swim to the right place or we're going to swim to the
best place or we're not going to uh attack each other or or do that stuff but it's just like
those exchanges themselves are only made possible through this like you know substrate of this this
(29:12):
moral substrate like we attach economic uh activity like we hang it on a lattice like and
Morality is that lattice.
So it's like the stronger, the more immutable that we have, our moral foundations, what we're trying to, we can only be as moral as the money can handle.
(29:38):
Maybe that's a different way of putting it, too.
Like we're building up this skyscraper with this monetary object.
And when you have a weak, you know, a corruptible monetary object, you are not going to build skyscrapers.
But like if you have some robust, you know, super strong, powerful material, you can build a skyscraper.
(29:59):
So it's kind of like, you know, and just like we're thinking morality itself is kind of like morality.
We could just say ethics like this ethical substrate.
The principles either allow us to be good or force us to be bad and extractive.
So I don't know.
(30:20):
I definitely want to push away from that, agree with you and push, reject that idea that like Bitcoin is just this moral good thing that just transcends human nature.
Like that's completely wrong.
like, but maybe it has the, when we have a good ethical foundation, we create and we build off of
(30:46):
some like ethical substrate that helps us actualize you know our human potential to be good or bad you know like you saying you could do bad things but the thing that gives me hope is the incentives are such though
in Bitcoin that when you try to cheat,
you will most likely end up on the losing end of the stick.
(31:08):
It will punish you if you try to bend it.
But yeah, I don't know. This is a fun conversation.
Okay. Did any of you guys see there was a Mahler's talk? I think it was at the HRF conference or the human rights conference that was in Oslo or something.
(31:35):
I'm trying to remember where it was from, but I remember listening to it. It was just a week or two ago and he was touching on this exact thing. And I think he actually nailed it.
I think this is a very important aspect to discuss, but it very easily becomes kind of misaligned as far as what you're talking about.
(31:58):
Because I think the tendency is to want to ascribe the morality to the thing or the tool, when in fact it has to do with what exact human activities are impacted.
and what you just said, Neil, about preventing somebody from cheating.
(32:21):
So just look real quick at the fiat system.
And it's not like a dollar itself that is the problem or the root of evil, to use a common phrase.
It's the way that it is produced, distributed.
It's the dynamic that results in society where certain people have access and others don't.
(32:44):
It's the way in which people can wield authority and stop other people from exerting their free will.
Mahler's in his talk refers to the sort of moral implications of you working and spending your lifetime
time trying to accrue and save up some energy to then be able to exert your free will.
(33:10):
And that a portion of that is insidiously being like stolen in a covert kind of way,
in a sneaky kind of way.
And there's major moral implications of all that.
So, you know, with Bitcoin, I think it solves some of those things because its rule set
(33:30):
takes away the possibility for any of the participants to do some of that underhanded
stuff. And despite the fact that the supply issuance is front loaded heavily so that those
that were really early have benefited in some way more than those that are later, everyone,
once you're playing on the playing field, is playing by the same rules and every one
(33:55):
Satoshi behaves in the same way. And that dynamic is fundamentally opposite from the fiat money.
That dynamic is the one that does not solve everything at all. It does not solve all moral
dilemmas, but it does solve a couple of very particular dilemmas that the fiat system results
(34:17):
in that I believe are real issues of morality. And so the issue, I think, as far as is Bitcoin
a moral force. I think it's a slippery slope to try to assess issues of equality. I think those
are just generally socially difficult things to try to reconcile. I think society right now is
(34:39):
wrestling with capitalism versus socialism and these kind of things. And it gets pretty
ridiculous at some points, this whole idea of a monetary system that at least no matter whether
you're holding a few Satoshis or you're holding, you know, thousands of Bitcoins, like the rules
(35:03):
on the network are the same for all the participants. That is a revelation. And the fact
that it is issued and ultimately has a supply cap is an incredible limitation on the corruption
that we see all over the place in the fiat system.
So I think there's very significant moral advances
(35:24):
and Bitcoin fixes some things,
but it doesn't overnight change people.
I think it has the potential long-term to change society
in some very positive ways
because certain types of corruption
and certain types of immoral behavior
will be actually tamped down or limited in their scope.
(35:48):
Yeah, I like that.
Pubby, thanks for coming up.
What say you this morning?
Yeah, I really like what TC was discussing there.
You know, the morality thing, different ways to approach it.
With Bitcoin, the morality to me, it was a two-prong attack, the hard cap supply.
(36:09):
And I get it.
There's paper Bitcoin out there.
However, with Bitcoin, it's not like you have the printer going.
The printer that will put in five times, ten times the amount of fiat that is out there.
Bitcoin by far is the lesser of two evils when it comes to that.
Yes, a pure Bitcoin standard, that's as hard cap as it gets, but we're not naive enough to know or not understand that there's paper Bitcoin out there.
(36:34):
The other thing with Bitcoin that brings us together even more so, I believe, is the fact that properly stored, it's unconfiscatable.
It's unconfiscatable for you.
And there's a morality to that.
Like the only thing, the actual work that you put in that store, that value that you put in that you store and you control.
You know, the goal, for example, most people don't even physically hold their own goal, but it's physical.
(36:59):
And those two things in concert, I think, are where Bitcoin has that moral superiority over any other type of asset out there.
Yeah, I do think back to what TC was saying, too.
It's like, for some reason, we try to personalize this for people.
And I think it's a sales pitch sometimes to include morality in it to say, hey, the world's going to be perfect.
(37:26):
Bitcoin fixes this.
And you should be a part of this for that reason.
And I don't think that we focus as much sometimes, not everybody, but on what Pubby was talking about, which is all of these other features that were created, you know, with the backdrop of this supply cap that make Bitcoin so significant and why people should be paying a lot more attention.
(37:54):
wanted to let's see hands are funny on my screen but wanted to say good morning to Jimmy Jimmy did
you have some thoughts this morning yeah good morning well real quick I you know not everybody
is a Bitcoiner gets affected by any means and just because somebody has Bitcoin doesn't mean
they're going to be morale or have a higher morality or you know they call it lame to be a
(38:16):
maxi doesn't mean anything it's just words but the fact that matter I see is that when people are
living on the fiat standard they're living in fear there's never enough and they're always going
because of inflation some of us once you get enough and some people don't say there's enough
if you got they stay on the grind but a lot of bitcoiners i've noticed when they step off to the
side and start living on the bitcoin standard and they've been in it long enough they have an
(38:38):
incredible wealth all of a sudden and they're not about lambos they're not about rolexes in all
cases and it does change them but it's them changing themselves just because they have a
different time preference just because they they get to this point of like hey i could give i can
And they seem to want to solve problems more than they want to just have a bunch of wealth.
Now, is that everybody? No.
And you'd be amazed how many OGs I know that trade tricklings.
(39:00):
They don't call themselves maxis. They're traders.
Now, in some cases, they're people that are saying they're maxis, and they really aren't.
Whatever.
Don't use their words, but it's their actions.
And I have seen more people in this group of people around the world that I have met.
I have known many wealthy people in my life.
I've never seen so many wealthy people, not all of them, but many of them,
(39:20):
that now become concerned with the problems of life in the future and children and generations ahead.
And, you know, it's just a different mindset.
And, you know, they look at me, why are you doing what you're doing?
Many people understand it because they're doing the same thing.
And that is they're not about just making more money.
And so, yeah, I think it does change.
It's just a tool.
Bitcoin is a tool just like fiat.
But fiat is not just a tool of money.
(39:40):
It's a tool of control.
Bitcoin is not.
This is something we've never had.
Global money that nobody can control.
And people can use it.
Now they can make it illegal.
It'll be pirate money.
it will still be used.
I guarantee you, you're not taking this away from the world now.
So, yeah, eventually it could eat up an awful lot of things.
But, you know, I don't know if it's the ultimate solution or hyper-Bitcoinization will happen.
(40:02):
But when hyper-Bitcoin happens, it's going to happen from many people.
Ninety percent of the people are going to use Bitcoin because everybody's using it,
not because there's some morality to it.
It really is, you know, people come in, number go up, they come in for payment systems,
they come in for all these other reasons.
Some of them get affected because they're finally not living in fear any longer.
And they live in a place of love.
(40:23):
They get to this place of like, wow, I can give.
I don't have to just take, take, take and be so concerned.
So I believe that that space, you know, that time preference change doesn't affect everybody.
But those that it affects, it affects them individually.
Like I'm doing what I'm doing.
Nobody's got a gun to my head to do what I do.
And I'm much more giving than I've ever been in my life.
I mean, I just don't care about money and the way people are raised to.
(40:46):
And, you know, I'm different. I was raised differently.
But at the same time, I've run into tons of people with the same attitude.
So, you know, I do believe it affects people.
I don't believe it affects everybody by any means.
So why do people get so butthurt when Bitcoiners aren't living the way or don't have the same ideas as everyone else?
(41:08):
And we kind of talked about this a couple of weeks ago about, you know, this cult or culture that we have in the Bitcoin space, especially on X.
Why do people get so bent out of shape when there's disagreements about certain topics or, you know, like you mentioned, Jimmy, some people are still gambling, right?
(41:29):
They're trading shit coins.
Why do people get so bent out of shape?
Like, is there this like one?
I had a guy trying to convince me the other day I should get back into trading.
I said, if I did, it'd be Bitcoin only.
And I do futures and I can do it.
But at the same time, I just don't need to do it.
I don't care.
But yes, it's almost like he's bothered that I don't want to follow him down that trail.
(41:50):
And then there's the Bitcoinermaxies that are like, if you don't do it my way.
This is what gets me.
It's not freedom.
When you're going around telling people what they should and shouldn't do, I don't want to be told what to be done.
It's like this is what I love about Bitcoin.
I know people of all different religions, all different politics, all different ideas.
But, yeah, we have something in common.
And, you know, that's the part that I enjoy.
(42:11):
But, you know, is everybody?
No.
And there's a lot of young people in the space that don't have, you know, and they get emotional.
And, you know, many people, when they find something, they want everybody to do it because they really believe in it, right?
And they're like, oh, yeah, you've got to do this.
But going around to your friends and family and trying to orange pill them is the worst thing you could do.
If you can't get them asking questions, you're just trying to shove something down their throat.
And then you look like a cult and you act like, you know, you're nuts, right?
(42:33):
And they're just like, you're crazy.
I don't do that.
I've never done that.
And my friends, they have to come and call me and say, okay, you know about Bitcoin.
Now we want to get into it.
Okay.
That's it.
I don't sit there every conversation, but I also don't talk to a lot of normies because we get bored with their conversations.
So, you know, but it is a thing that I would recommend to people, even with this core in the knots.
I run both.
You know, it's like this whole fighting and infighting.
(42:55):
You know, it's actually good in the sense it does get better tech, but at the same time, keep it down.
Keep the passion, you know, control yourselves because, yeah, people get really wound up about shit.
And I just laugh.
I'm like, I'm a guy. I don't I've got no, you know, with more years, you just get to her like, let it play out, wait and see how it goes.
And if people say there's something and they're not, well, that happens all the time.
(43:16):
And humans will be humans. TX is right. There's no doubt about it.
You're not taking that away from us. So just because Bitcoin's involved doesn't mean it's going to make everybody a moral person.
But I do believe it does help a lot more find a more moral life for themselves.
And they just end up doing it for themselves. And that's pretty cool.
So, yeah, go ahead and then we'll go to Pubby.
(43:38):
Yeah, I find myself agreeing quite a bit with what Jimmy was saying there.
And it's funny, my stage has been frozen, but I instantly recognized TC, Pubby, and Jimmy's voices as soon as they started talking.
We've all been in spaces so many years now.
But, yeah, I agree with what Jimmy is saying.
(43:58):
It's not going to change people.
I mean, that's what I said earlier, right?
But I think to answer your question, Bob, why people get butthurt, why there's so much emotion, my take on it is that money itself is a complicated topic that a lot of people don't fully understand all of the different variables and factors that go into what money is, what it represents, what is good versus bad money.
(44:22):
What kind of – is our money right now good or bad?
They just – they're just not there, right?
And Bitcoin, to add an extra layer, is a complicated thing.
It takes time to really understand what it is and what the contrasts are between it and other types of money and other assets.
And a lot of people who want to get involved usually do so because of the performance to date.
(44:49):
And they're like, oh, I want to get on board this fucking train.
And so in their lack of understanding, they outsource some of that to people they believe
have a better handle on it, people they think are further down the track, and that they
just look for, inherently, look for someone who can explain it to them.
And some folks, which I would say a lot of us on this stage are the types of folks where
(45:12):
we might do that for a while, but our learning is really done by ourselves.
You know, we do a lot of our own research, a lot of our own thinking.
We parse ideas.
We don't just take what people say and go, oh, that sounds good.
I'm adopting that as my entire identity.
But there are a lot of people who do that.
And in this space, since we don't have a marketing team, there's not a central group controlling
(45:32):
anything.
The narratives are really driven by who is the most popular influencer with the biggest
reach, who wrote the coolest book, who made the most banger podcast, et cetera.
And over time, those people, which is, it doesn't matter who they are.
I'm not going to blame any individual.
It's just the fact of how it is that it is a very small group of people who are presenting narrative views that many others have now adopted for themselves.
(45:58):
And while there are folks like us who will continue our learning, there are many people who they kind of stop there.
And like they might just say, oh, I just like the way this guy's worldview is.
That makes sense to me.
I think that's what's going to happen.
And they just kind of run with it.
And anything that challenges that down the road gets an immediate negative response from them because they don necessarily have the complexity of thought or understanding to really go okay I don agree with that How could they be wrong How does this affect how I think Let me
(46:28):
evolve my own thinking to kind of incorporate some of those views. A lot of people just can't do that
shit. Bayesian inferencing and critical thinking, they're not common skills. And so I think what we
end up with a lot, the tribalism, what people call a cult, is really just kind of a representation of
what exists in pockets of humanity everywhere. We're in Bitcoin, but these things exist in sports
(46:52):
teams and fucking, you know, religions and other kinds of cultural phenomena. And so there's always
a group of individuals who think for themselves, who are not zealous about their beliefs, but may
have high convictions. And then there are a lot of others in the Pareto distribution. Those others
tend to be like 80, 90% of people who have a much simpler perspective on it. And they kind of just
(47:17):
follow the trending winds of narrative. And so, you know, when someone comes along, like myself,
I am like, maybe to a fault, I insist on finding my own way towards a problem, right? Like I almost,
like, in an autistic way, reject what other people say, no, I'm going to go figure out my
(47:37):
own opinion, and then I'll come back to you and we can talk about it. And I do it all the time.
And so when someone like myself comes out and says, like, I think this popular idea in Bitcoin
doesn't make any sense. And here's the reasons why I think that. I get a lot of people calling
me a fucking idiot and a fiat-brained cuck retard. And I have fun staying poor. And they
(47:58):
bust out all of the little turns of phrase and all the little colloquialisms that the tribe has
adopted. And it just becomes so tiring. But at the end of the day, I know that that doesn't
represent what Bitcoin is, doesn't change anything about what it is that these people think this way
or that they react that way to myself and others. It's just kind of the way human nature is. And
(48:20):
they don't bother me. But I think we just have to identify that like, that is just going to exist
at all times. And since we don't have an agreed upon mission or purpose for what Bitcoin is or
what it's supposed to achieve or anything. We never will.
We're kind of always going to be dealing with this, I think.
(48:42):
Yeah, it's definitely interesting. Pubby, wanted to make sure to get to you.
And then I think I see Jimmy's hand again.
Yeah, I remember the one conversation we had about, you know, the cult and whatnot.
And at the end of the day, we're still humans and any Bitcoin here, you're still human.
And the puritanism, as I like to call it, the Bitcoin puritans that come out, the ones that got here very early, you can equate to someone that, you know, running.
(49:07):
Anyone can run.
But, you know, first ones here that are Olympic level runners.
Well, what's a runner?
Is it someone new coming in off the street that's not as fast as you, can't run as far as you?
And you have these ones, folks that understand the technical side of this.
And, you know, why is it so important?
While they look at it like this may be the greatest threat and fight that we have is control over world currency and the fairness of it all.
(49:34):
And so you see that.
And you see all the time people come in.
Oh, you're not running a node.
You're not running two nodes.
Why don't you self-custody yet?
Why do you have it on an exchange?
And it's just human nature of how you view Bitcoin.
That's the exact same thing as nods and nodes going on, man.
And like you say, the personalities that get involved in this, all personality driven.
(49:56):
And obviously, this is all crab market stuff, by the way.
If you're new here, this always happens.
We go sideways, we'll find things to just fight about.
But at the end, you cannot remove the human element out of this, which is great.
And this is why you have these arguments in these spaces.
It's a big family that gets into fights until someone from the outside picks on them.
Then we come together.
(50:19):
Yeah, that's really good.
Hey, could I just jump in on some of that?
Because there's absolutely a struggle when it comes to anything sort of new that's transformative.
And I believe that that's what happens in Bitcoin for most people, the vast majority of people.
(50:42):
If you actually start acquiring Bitcoin and you start interacting with other Bitcoiners, there are social changes that occur.
There's drastic perspective changes that occur. And now you're bumping into the other people in your life and you suddenly find yourself as an alien. But it's, you know, it's a thing of complexity and big ideas.
(51:08):
But there's also, you know, I think the core issue to tie it back to the supply topic at the beginning about scarcity.
And if you actually value some of these concepts, you might find yourself literally opposed to the rest of your community around you.
(51:30):
And because we're living through a time, I think it's really important to recognize this is a time in history where there's really strong forces pushing people to, you know, do basically bad behavior.
It's really crazy.
Everybody is kind of like abusing their own health and essentially gambling financially and a whole bunch of other behaviors that, you know, when you kind of discover this Bitcoin thing,
(52:00):
It seems to steer people in a different direction.
And then you're really sitting from a point of view of attempting to sort out right and wrong, good and bad.
And that is an environment in which you're never going to find a chorus of everybody agreeing on everything.
In fact, you'll find a bunch of really strong-headed people constantly butting heads over every little thing.
(52:25):
And lo and behold, that's what we see in Bitcoin.
So I think it's a fascinating study of human behavior and psychology.
Bitcoin does seem to kind of be a catalyst for stirring all that up.
Yeah, Jimmy, I want to go to you, but it did make me think of something.
I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on this.
Like if you saw Mechanic's hour and six minute presentation, I'll call it, over the weekend, you notice that he tried to use this, you know, the consequences of what could be like one example of, you know, misuse of the Bitcoin blockchain and how if you support that, you're culpable.
(53:13):
So I'm just curious, like, does that prove what TC is saying, which is that, well, part of what you're saying, TC, but that, like, basically, people are going to try to convince you in different ways and try to make it personal.
And that there's actual, like, real harm being done if you act in a certain way.
(53:38):
what do you guys think about you know i know this has been kicked around for a couple of weeks now
but what do you guys think about this uh mechanic uh diatribe over the weekend did anybody watch
you're referring you're referring to the fact that you're putting illegal data on your node
okay yeah that's what i thought yeah and it's been an old age-old argument ever since i've been in
(54:02):
bitcoin they've talked about this and so this is the problem with relaying information same thing
and nostril when you relay information if you're if you have a server you might end up with child
porn and that's what they brought up but anything illegal as far as data it could be treasonous data
it could be you know spy files whatever um yeah if it's on your server the government it gives them
an ink it gives them a way to say we have to come check their server and this is something that has
(54:26):
been an issue for a long time so it's not you know it's not that it's new or that it and people
saying, oh, that's been around. So it's still a problem. It is an issue. It can be a legal issue
in the United States. I don't know about all countries, but they've made a very good inkling
and people like Elizabeth Warren, whether it's legal or not, they may be able to get warrants
and be able to go into servers because it gives them that door because they can suspect, well,
(54:48):
you've got illegal material on your server and you may not even know you're doing it. This is back
to the old idea of if you're hosting a website and how did Ross Ulbrich end up in prison? Same
Same kind of thing. You host a website, you're liable for all the illegalities that are going on on it.
Well, that can be a problem when you don't even know and you're just relaying information.
So that's his point. And, you know, I agree that it can be a legal issue.
(55:10):
I still don't know, you know, completely between the knots and core.
I've studied a lot and I'm not going to get into that.
But like I said, I run them both and I love mechanics.
Good friend. I don't think he's wacky. I don't think he's crazy.
I don't think he's, you know, but at the same time, you know, it's going to play out.
And that's what I love about Bitcoin. If it's still an option.
And that's what these filters are.
There's still a choice.
It's not censorship, but you can run either one.
(55:31):
You can turn them on and off.
Well, that to me is still an option.
So let it play out.
You know, just hold on.
There's an interesting nuance, though, that I, and again, I don't have a, you know, opinion
right or wrong.
Fundamentally, I think it's really something everybody needs to just consider is that if
you run a node, you're a participant in a decentralized network.
(55:51):
And that is fundamentally a different thing than just using your personal computer for your personal computing. It's a completely different behavior. And I would just urge people to look at it from that point of view and be honest with yourself. Oh, okay, I'm going to run a Bitcoin node. What does that actually mean?
and it's a i think it is a different thing i i actually use my my my home node is running on its
(56:15):
own little box for that very reason because the behavior that i do on my personal computer is
you know a whole bunch of activity has nothing to do with a decentralized network necessarily
and i think it's important for everyone to consider and be conscious what are the what
are the behaviors you're doing? Also look at what is the benefit to you for making a choice there.
(56:38):
I think simply making the choice to run a node is a very significant one and it can be a big
responsibility and it can bring a lot of benefits. Oh, wow. Where have we seen that pattern before?
That's all over Bitcoin. So you have, you know, incredible sort of, you know, powers that come
(56:59):
from wielding Bitcoin, and there's also great responsibility that comes from it.
But there's a dynamic there that's real unique,
and it's different than our use of other computers.
And so I think that's just stuff people should ponder.
Jimmy, you saw you come off mute.
(57:19):
Did you have a comment before?
I was just going to say, well, running not is really just, like I said,
filters you can turn off.
Now, what I understand is that, you know, it doesn't really work.
I mean, in a sense, it's not stopping the miners from putting that in the box, but it is the mempool.
And so in a way, it's like, really, I look at not just not really that it's effective.
It's a signal.
The reason people are going to knots, I believe, is because they're the ones that are saying, you know what?
(57:43):
I want this to be a payment network.
I want this to be a money network.
I don't want this to be a data cloud or a cloud server.
I don't want this to be relaying a bunch of data that doesn't relate to the global financial system that we're trying to replace.
You know, that's that's why I think they're doing it.
And to me, it's just a signal.
It's just showing a lot of core people like we do care about this.
And you keep saying it doesn't matter.
But obviously, to an awful lot of Bitcoiners, it does.
(58:05):
And I think that's really just a signal.
It's really not affecting anything yet.
Now, it could turn into something and we'll see how it plays out.
But again, I'm watching with great interest.
I was through the block wars.
I've been through a lot of these, you know, the whole thing with BSV and cash and all this stuff that's happened.
I think it just makes Bitcoin stronger and some good is going to come out of this.
But, you know, it just, you know, hang on and see how it plays out.
(58:28):
Yeah, I can't remember who is saying it, but it's so true that when we are, maybe it was you, Jimmy, but when we're going sideways, these are the types of things that happen.
People get bored and want to find fight things, fight about all kinds of things.
And so, you know, part of the passion.
(58:50):
It was a passion.
Yeah, and maybe some people are salespeople too, for one reason or another.
So I don't know.
I always try to be a little bit skeptical of these things and try to do some digging myself.
But I do like the debate.
I think it helps people think and maybe challenge some of your own biases, some of your thoughts, how you use Bitcoin.
(59:17):
I did like TC's point about separating your node from, you know, your personal computer.
I do think that's actually a good, and most people probably do, to be frank.
They're not running their node software on the same.
Oh, connect your wallets.
A lot of people run nodes and don't really use them.
(59:39):
And they don't realize to be sovereign, you connect your wallet to that node and you do your own transactions.
So they're almost there.
But I know a lot of people.
I've talked to them.
They're like, oh, how do you do that?
And they didn't even know.
They're just running the node thinking they're doing something good.
And I'm like, no, you've got to use it.
And they're like, how do you mean?
And I connect them up, and they're like, oh.
So now you're sending your own transactions, and you're seeing it,
and nobody else is seeing what you're doing.
(01:00:00):
And this is where you get your privacy and your sovereignty.
So that's just an add-on because I know there are a fair amount that run the node
and haven't got there yet.
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree.
I think too many people are convinced to run a node because it's a net good for the network.
But you're right, dead on, Jimmy, that this is a way for you to broadcast transactions without permission.
(01:00:25):
And that's the whole point of Bitcoin.
So if you're out there thinking about running a node, yeah, consider some of these things that we've been talking about today.
But wanted to wind down the show and say thank you guys for this Tuesday that feels like a Monday.
We're going to wrap it up here, but I want to thank everybody who joined us today,
everyone who had us on in the background, all the speakers for the lively discussion.
(01:00:50):
And by the way, guys, please do follow everybody that came up here on stage.
Great signal.
If you need help on your Bitcoin journey, like running a node or something else,
please visit BitcoinVeterans.org and throw your information in there.
We'll get you plugged into valuable resources to help you along your journey.
But that's all we have for today.
And I wanted to remind you once again, as we do every day, do not shitcoin.
(01:01:20):
It's like sitting at the cool table in the cafeteria at a mental hospital.
Well, people that use fiat currency as a store of value, we call them a core.
(01:01:42):
We call them a core.
Thank you.
(00:30):
all right guys and gals good morning it feels like a monday thank you for joining us on bitcoin
veteran spaces number 255 where we talk about bitcoin all right i'll be your host this morning
(00:52):
my name is bob van kirk joined by texas toast who will be your co-host we also have neil up here
captain trips trying to get a few others but welcome welcome thank you for listening as always
thanks for popping in here and hopefully we have a good discussion today before we get started let's
(01:13):
turn the page on that paper calendar that you all have because today is tuesday september 2nd 2025
let's take a look at the time chain a little bit of a pump here this morning we are at bitcoin
block height number 912,884 with the Bitcoin price just below 111,000.
(01:37):
It means you could still pick up just around 901 sats per US dollar.
Wow, that's great stuff.
Announcements.
Let's take a look at a couple of them.
Bitcoin veterans, as most of you all know, are having their second annual summit on November
10th and 11th in beautiful Nashville, Tennessee.
(01:57):
Day one is going to be the conference day.
And day two will be range day.
Looking for people who want to get involved?
Visit BitcoinVeterans.org forward slash Summit 2025.
Looking for speakers, panel topics, volunteers, and attendees.
(02:20):
So, yeah, check that out.
my phone is doing all kinds of funny things so give me a thumbs up if you guys can hear me
all right I think so but just want to make sure there we go perfect all right let's go around
the horn this morning and say good morning to everyone who is always coming up here and helping
(02:46):
me out with this space Texas Toast how was your long weekend how you doing this morning good
morning. Things are a little weird out there. I got this weird feeling. We got Bitcoin pumping.
We got gold pumping. We got, is Trump dead? You know, we got this weird announcement coming at
like two o'clock today. You know, there's no end in sight. They're going to turn Gaza into like
(03:12):
an AI web three smart city. You know, that's pretty odd and I'm dignified, but yeah. So just
some weird feelings, the bond market starting to get really crazy. So, you know, I'm here for the
ride. Yeah. Very good. Thanks for bringing those things up. I'm not sure about all of this stuff.
(03:41):
I think it is kind of wild.
Short week, though, so we've got to squeeze a lot in.
Neil, how are you this morning?
I'm doing very good.
It's kind of weird.
Sometimes the more noise that is around, the harder you focus in on actual signal.
Like, I don't know.
(04:02):
Sometimes the noise distracts and it obfuscates, but sometimes it really does make you just
focus in on what's important.
So that's kind of where I'm at today with my life.
Yeah, good stuff.
Captain Trips, good morning.
Happy Tuesday, even though it feels like a Monday.
Good morning, good morning.
(04:24):
It feels like a Monday.
A new month, too.
Last through the year.
Yeah, I get the sense that something's building up.
Not sure what.
Yeah, well, thanks for coming on again.
let's take a look at the topic of the day. I wanted to talk to you guys about something that
(04:45):
I think is obvious, but just in speaking with family, different people over the weekend,
I think that there's a lot of people out there who are bad at math or just really don't
understand the significance of Bitcoin's hard supply cap. And so what I wanted to do this
(05:10):
morning, plenty of topics we could talk about, obviously, and we can take this one kind of
anywhere you'd like. But I do think that it's interesting, like how most people out there,
especially folks, you know, maybe sometimes even in the space that come in new and are listening
to this stuff we talk about all the time, just miss the importance of this fact.
(05:37):
A lot of people come for number go up and don't really realize how important it is to
have this 21 million supply.
Now, that's the way I'll frame it, but maybe some people would want to come up and say the
supply cap doesn't really matter.
But for me, and I think a lot of us, it is important and significant. And so I wanted to go around the horn and get the panel's thoughts on whether or not 21 million is truly significant, or if it just is one of those properties that maybe eventually will be changed.
(06:17):
21 million is everything, Bob.
It's what gives everybody hope that it will remain the same and not change and be like an immovable foundation for the rest of humanity.
(06:37):
That's 21 million.
Yeah, it is, I think, significant for a lot of reasons.
And I know Neil always brings up things kind of like from first principles.
And so, you know, as we kind of peel back the onion on all the noise, as you kind of mentioned, Neil, what comes to mind?
(07:09):
Like, what do you how do you think about it when you're considering the fact that Bitcoin is this fixed supply asset, this network?
How do you think about it?
Yeah, so 21 million fixed supply is it's not necessary for it to be, quote unquote, a moral money.
(07:36):
like the immutable part that it doesn't so if they had an issuance like the issuance schedule
being immutable that's what makes it quote-unquote moral like not changing in that sense but when
they when you go to actually fix it with the you know uh asymptotic you know uh you know approaching
(07:56):
the the hard cap limit like that's actually what makes it like transcend like multiple levels higher
than just being merely moral money.
You know, like gold being, you know, like digging it out of the earth.
It has this like, you know, its issuance, its supply increase is tethered to natural
(08:20):
law, objective reality.
Like you have to actually go work to dig it out, do all this stuff.
So it's like in like that's kind of I mean, that's moral.
You know, it's not it's not you're not making it up from nothing.
You're not it's not from fiat.
It's not you're not you're not contradicting, you know, a value proposition itself with with that's with gold.
(08:44):
So like even if Bitcoin adopted just, you know, this fixed 2 percent issuance, every block has 10 Bitcoin forever.
You know, it's like that's still better than fiat, you know, but but I'm just so happy that he actually did.
satoshi fixed it to the 21 million because that like i don't know it's hard to put into
(09:06):
like you have to create that like uh i don't know you talk about that foundation like it just makes
it from a good foundation a good moral thing to just like something so just like diamond you know
just uh so i i'm really happy that he did fix it even though i would say like it wouldn't be
(09:27):
necessary to still be better than Fiat. But I don't know if that makes any sense at all.
It's a low bar, Neil. It's a really low bar.
Yeah, Fiat is the low bar.
Yeah, we're kind of rearranging the stage here. Would love to have people come up and chime in on
(09:49):
this. Even if you've never spoken in this space before, would love to hear from some new folks.
hit that microphone button in the bottom left otherwise throw your questions in that purple
pill in the bottom right you can hit on that and type in there if you've never done that before
and then lastly guys share the space would love to get more people in here on this beautiful
(10:11):
Tuesday morning um yeah I like this idea Neil um and I wonder like sometimes we attach things
to other things and i don't know this idea of morality is is interesting i'm not sure like
could you tease that out a little bit like how do you how do you see this fixed supply
(10:36):
being moral like tease that out for the audience a little bit if you don't mind okay so um
if you i mean going back to aristotle aquinas like these ancient you know ancient principles that
they teased out is like all money is ethical first. So it's like to exchange an object value
(11:01):
for value between two people, both people have to presuppose some sense of honesty, justice,
fairness. So the ethics is what enables the economic exchange in the first place.
So the more solid you make that ethical foundation, the more powerful the money can be.
(11:23):
um so if you have a system that you know here's some here's some uh loose rules for how we create
money and how we create value in the world and then we exchange it it's like all right well
that's like uh i don't know it's like if we're bowling you know we don't we don't have any uh
(11:45):
no bumpers up like yeah it's still a fair game you can play it and like it'll work but like
if you just go ahead and put the bumpers up, you know, and you just say nothing can go into the gutter, you're just going to become a more powerful bullet.
Like you can't go in the gutter.
(12:06):
And like that's what like the immutability does.
It puts those bumpers up.
But what I think in teasing out like what does the fixed supply do beyond just its quote unquote moral is it maximizes the time preference.
Like it makes like the coefficient in front of all the variables.
(12:31):
It just puts, you know, it puts time, the importance of time preference to the end.
So that makes all investment, that makes all, like you're investing in other people, you're investing in ventures, you're investing in artwork or time, like where you're putting your time, it forces you to think about it in a, in like the way that creates the most value in the world.
(12:56):
Like, you know, people are always talking about fiat food or fiat fitness or all these other like fiat type of things as like this derogatory statement for just low time preference, stupid decisions, like low quality things.
Well, it's like that's a function of the money because it makes people have these high time preferences.
(13:20):
And it's like they sacrifice the quality value over time for just short-term immediacy.
And it's like when a whole society does that, it just turns everything to shit.
That's also the reason the roads are always fucked up.
There's like everything crumbles because no one can invest and allocate capital properly in a way that's beneficial for society, you know, to continue.
(13:48):
And how I like the idea of thinking about how am I going to what life, what society am I going to pass on to my children?
Well, my grandchildren, my great grandchildren, like thinking in those terms, like that's how you get to a beautiful society is because generation after generation.
isn't thinking about how can I, you know, get my, you know, my rocks off right now, right here,
(14:13):
right now, get my lollipops and fancy pants. Like I'm focused on making things quality and investing,
getting the absolute most out of the capital, the absolute most out of my time that I possibly can.
And like, if, when everybody thinks that way, that that's how you build a great civilization.
So I don't know, did that, if that was helpful.
(14:37):
Yeah, I really like that. Did want to give Texas Toast and Captain Trips a chance to chime in, but it did make me think of a couple of things.
I'll let you guys go first if you have anything. Otherwise, I can kind of riff off of that a little bit.
All right. Not all at once. No, I guess what I was thinking is I agree. I like a lot of what you said, Neil.
(15:00):
The one thing that I always have an issue with is trying to, I guess, think about the differences between morality and incentives.
So I think that maybe the supply cap is a good basis for us to be more moral as humans or individuals And maybe that kind of what you saying I don think that Bitcoin in and of itself
(15:32):
is moral or immoral.
I think that kind of what we're talking about,
like your example of the roads
is that people would make decisions based on incentives.
And if the incentives are there for you
to hold on to an asset or to not spend it,
because it is fixed and will only go up in value versus everything else, then that kind of changes how you operate in the world.
(16:01):
And so, you know, on the other side of that, again, just using the roads as an example, you know, if roads are only going to last a certain amount of time,
and it really doesn't matter because our election cycles or whoever's responsible for the roads, you know, builds crappy roads,
(16:23):
then, you know, I guess where I have trouble is, like, is that based on incentives for the people in charge?
Or is that truly like a morality question? Does that make sense?
yeah so i i think the thing to parse out between incentives and morality is like so
(16:44):
bitcoin itself is it's it's not moral or like what is morality so morality is
the identification of an end like it's it's it's your ability to choose to aim at to choose
a direction to shoot for an outcome.
(17:05):
So the domain of choosing ends is how Aquinas would define the moral domain.
So Bitcoin is just a tool.
A hammer is not moral.
But what you do with the hammer, if I hit you in the head with it, that's a moral act.
If I build a house with it, that's a moral act.
Like, so it's what we do with Bitcoin that and and I guess in this.
(17:31):
So when I'm saying Bitcoin is moral, I'm I'm already like it's money.
So it's it's presupposing that we're exchanging it between two people.
So it's like when I say Bitcoin is moral, I'm talking about how it enables two people to connect, to transact at scale, at a societal level that is immutable.
(18:00):
it's uh and what why that's important is like i don't have like trust don't verify i don't have to
trust that you are scheming me that you are going to take advantage of me in this interaction
like when we're when we're trading you know like you can't you know there's no fool's bitcoin you
know like if you send me the bitcoin i have the bitcoin and that can't be cheated that can't be
(18:23):
manipulated. So it's like that the verification of in the I guess you could say that it insulates
the transaction from corruption. Maybe that's one way to say like we're connecting like like
wires with electricity. And, you know, the your your extension cord wouldn't work very well if
(18:45):
you didn't have like that plastic coating around it. You know, like you need to insulate that
connection so you can transfer that value efficiently and without all the craziness.
So it's like the incentive then is to, if you try to cheat it, you get burned.
(19:08):
Like, so you could think of incentives as more like the outcome or the consequence of
particular strategies.
But when I'm talking about just the morality of Bitcoin itself, like it's just saying like it's the principles and the way that it protects and preserves them from corruption that makes it makes you and I transact morally.
(19:35):
So like it can't we can't ever just push people, separate people from Bitcoin.
Like people using Bitcoin is what makes it money.
I don't know. I'm I don't know if I'm making any sense.
No, I love it. And I think the reason that this topic is fun is because it is difficult.
(20:00):
And so I think there's so many different angles to it.
And, you know, if we can cause people to think a little bit this morning, I know it's a Monday, but it's a Tuesday.
But I do think that, like, this is, it is quite the interesting topic.
And I think maybe if I were to simplify what you're saying, which I really like, is that the communication of value in Bitcoin that we're using, because we're using it as money, is based on truth.
(20:34):
And so as long as you have that truth, you can't fake it, right?
And so when the purity of that truth comes through in that communication of the transfer of value, it allows people to operate under a different regime.
(20:54):
And I think that's maybe a little deep for Tuesday, but it's fun to think about a little bit because I do think it opens up a whole new world for people.
I do see TXMC just came up and appreciate that. One of the things that, you know, I think we can compare Bitcoin versus a lot of things.
(21:19):
And thanks, sir, for coming up. Feel free to kind of chime in wherever you'd like.
But one of the things that maybe would come to mind with a finite supply or a supply cap is, you know, Bitcoin has often been referred to as digital gold.
And I think, you know, with gold being at new all time highs, ripping, you know, it might be interesting to kind of really go through this comparison or make sure that this analogy is accurate, which I think it's not.
(21:56):
But I'm curious, like, what do we think about gold and Bitcoin?
Like some people are fans of both.
And some people are saying, hey, you know, it's a digital world.
We're not going back to analog.
Gold has its flaws.
And so I'm Bitcoin only.
What are your guys' thoughts on this comparison between Bitcoin and gold as it relates to the scarcity or the supply cap?
(22:24):
I do have crickets and good morning TXMC how are you
hey Bob I'm doing all right man just uh had a very minor surgery a couple days ago and I haven't
been able to eat very much so I've been super low energy so sorry if uh I sound a little under the
(22:50):
weather, it's a lot easier to type than talk. But I thought this was an interesting topic. And so I
wanted to just add a couple of thoughts. And, you know, I don't know if I'm right or wrong. This is
just my opinion. But I don't think there's any inherent morality to Bitcoin or gold or anything
like that. It is a tool for facilitating human interaction, you know, and the ledger and the
(23:18):
design of Bitcoin. It's immutable. It's transparent. Once you've made your transaction,
you can verify it and know that it is final. If you have your key, you know that you have the BTC
and it can't be taken from you. And so in those ways, it is more, I guess you could say moral.
I wouldn't use that word, but it has some stability and verifiability to it. It can be
(23:45):
relied upon, but it doesn't guarantee that the exchange itself is honest. If you use your Bitcoin
to buy a car, you could still be sold a lemon. If you use your Bitcoin to buy a watch, you could
still be sold a fake watch. It still comes down to the interaction between the two humans. And
that's true with any monetary standard. Bitcoin doesn't change people. It just provides an extra
(24:11):
a layer of verifiability and some interesting traits in the sense that it has a limited supply
and it has this native payment infrastructure that you can transact with it without asking
anyone else's permission or using any kind of intermediary. Like that is very unique.
And I think it gives it some kind of some element of value beyond other forms of media. But
(24:35):
But I also, I just personally am not a big buyer of the morality talk about Bitcoin that I think, no offense to any of the conversation that was going here.
I think you guys have interesting ideas.
It's just my take.
But in a lot of Bitcoin spaces and writings and podcasts and whatever, there's a lot of talk about how people think that because its supply is programmable, it's codified, you know, forever into the future, that that inherently changes or alters the trajectory of civilization or the way we exchange with each other.
(25:20):
And I really just don't believe that because at the end of the day, human nature doesn't really change a whole lot.
And there are still bad actors.
And I mean, Bitcoin is trustless by nature.
You don't even know who you're selling it to half the time, unless you're doing a face-to-face interaction or you are buying and selling from a known vendor of some kind.
(25:42):
And if you're just trading your BTC on some kind of an exchange, even a decentralized one, you have no idea who your counterparty is.
You're just trusting the protocol to verify that the sale is completed.
You could be trading Bitcoin with a child porn purveyor to use a topic that's been going around lately in Bitcoin or a fucking drug lord or something.
I'm just making up examples.
(26:04):
But like those are not moral exchanges just because of the nature of Bitcoin.
I think that because the monetary system for the last century has been very unfair to savers, I think there is a desire to see the design antithesis of fiat, which is what Bitcoin is.
(26:29):
It's literally the opposite of fiat.
I think there is an inherent desire to see the opposite of fiat as the solution to it.
But my perspective is that it just represents the other extreme polarity and introduces, if it were to be the central money in an economy, and anyone of you who follow me and see my posts, I've talked about this a lot, I think it just introduces a whole other different set of potential problems or hurdles that we'd have to work through and that it isn't just naturally the best solution.
(27:03):
And I don't want to derail this into some other thing, but I think that the supply cap is an interesting trait to kind of tie it back to the topic here.
I think the supply cap is an interesting trait.
It's certainly like a selling point for Bitcoin.
It's something that's got me interested in the beginning.
Like, oh, what is this thing that has programmable issuance that's asymptotically going to zero over the next century?
(27:28):
That's really fucking cool.
So, but that's kind of as far as I take it.
I really don't see how it puts us on a different, like, trajectory in the way that we exchange with each other.
Yeah, I like that take.
I mean, I think we are, you know, I think you can argue, and as we did, that there is a, maybe there is a morality to it.
(27:59):
But I think, yeah, where I was coming from is morality is needs to be ascribed to humans.
And so, you know, you wonder if things are a little bit more a little bit more fair.
I don't know. I'd have to think about this some more, but I do see Neil's hand.
So I'd love to get his his response.
(28:21):
Yeah. Yeah. No, I liked what what TXMC was saying.
And it just made me like here again, like this is always like we're parsing out and we're trying to like get get the nuanced principles out.
And it's like so with the way he's describing, like I agree with basically everything he was saying, like my I would just frame what so like what morality is.
(28:45):
It's like so we're all these fish. Right. And what I'm saying is when we're doing anything economically, morality is the water.
like it's we're not saying we're going to swim to the right place or we're going to swim to the
best place or we're not going to uh attack each other or or do that stuff but it's just like
those exchanges themselves are only made possible through this like you know substrate of this this
(29:12):
moral substrate like we attach economic uh activity like we hang it on a lattice like and
Morality is that lattice.
So it's like the stronger, the more immutable that we have, our moral foundations, what we're trying to, we can only be as moral as the money can handle.
(29:38):
Maybe that's a different way of putting it, too.
Like we're building up this skyscraper with this monetary object.
And when you have a weak, you know, a corruptible monetary object, you are not going to build skyscrapers.
But like if you have some robust, you know, super strong, powerful material, you can build a skyscraper.
(29:59):
So it's kind of like, you know, and just like we're thinking morality itself is kind of like morality.
We could just say ethics like this ethical substrate.
The principles either allow us to be good or force us to be bad and extractive.
So I don't know.
(30:20):
I definitely want to push away from that, agree with you and push, reject that idea that like Bitcoin is just this moral good thing that just transcends human nature.
Like that's completely wrong.
like, but maybe it has the, when we have a good ethical foundation, we create and we build off of
(30:46):
some like ethical substrate that helps us actualize you know our human potential to be good or bad you know like you saying you could do bad things but the thing that gives me hope is the incentives are such though
in Bitcoin that when you try to cheat,
you will most likely end up on the losing end of the stick.
(31:08):
It will punish you if you try to bend it.
But yeah, I don't know. This is a fun conversation.
Okay. Did any of you guys see there was a Mahler's talk? I think it was at the HRF conference or the human rights conference that was in Oslo or something.
(31:35):
I'm trying to remember where it was from, but I remember listening to it. It was just a week or two ago and he was touching on this exact thing. And I think he actually nailed it.
I think this is a very important aspect to discuss, but it very easily becomes kind of misaligned as far as what you're talking about.
(31:58):
Because I think the tendency is to want to ascribe the morality to the thing or the tool, when in fact it has to do with what exact human activities are impacted.
and what you just said, Neil, about preventing somebody from cheating.
(32:21):
So just look real quick at the fiat system.
And it's not like a dollar itself that is the problem or the root of evil, to use a common phrase.
It's the way that it is produced, distributed.
It's the dynamic that results in society where certain people have access and others don't.
(32:44):
It's the way in which people can wield authority and stop other people from exerting their free will.
Mahler's in his talk refers to the sort of moral implications of you working and spending your lifetime
time trying to accrue and save up some energy to then be able to exert your free will.
(33:10):
And that a portion of that is insidiously being like stolen in a covert kind of way,
in a sneaky kind of way.
And there's major moral implications of all that.
So, you know, with Bitcoin, I think it solves some of those things because its rule set
(33:30):
takes away the possibility for any of the participants to do some of that underhanded
stuff. And despite the fact that the supply issuance is front loaded heavily so that those
that were really early have benefited in some way more than those that are later, everyone,
once you're playing on the playing field, is playing by the same rules and every one
(33:55):
Satoshi behaves in the same way. And that dynamic is fundamentally opposite from the fiat money.
That dynamic is the one that does not solve everything at all. It does not solve all moral
dilemmas, but it does solve a couple of very particular dilemmas that the fiat system results
(34:17):
in that I believe are real issues of morality. And so the issue, I think, as far as is Bitcoin
a moral force. I think it's a slippery slope to try to assess issues of equality. I think those
are just generally socially difficult things to try to reconcile. I think society right now is
(34:39):
wrestling with capitalism versus socialism and these kind of things. And it gets pretty
ridiculous at some points, this whole idea of a monetary system that at least no matter whether
you're holding a few Satoshis or you're holding, you know, thousands of Bitcoins, like the rules
(35:03):
on the network are the same for all the participants. That is a revelation. And the fact
that it is issued and ultimately has a supply cap is an incredible limitation on the corruption
that we see all over the place in the fiat system.
So I think there's very significant moral advances
(35:24):
and Bitcoin fixes some things,
but it doesn't overnight change people.
I think it has the potential long-term to change society
in some very positive ways
because certain types of corruption
and certain types of immoral behavior
will be actually tamped down or limited in their scope.
(35:48):
Yeah, I like that.
Pubby, thanks for coming up.
What say you this morning?
Yeah, I really like what TC was discussing there.
You know, the morality thing, different ways to approach it.
With Bitcoin, the morality to me, it was a two-prong attack, the hard cap supply.
(36:09):
And I get it.
There's paper Bitcoin out there.
However, with Bitcoin, it's not like you have the printer going.
The printer that will put in five times, ten times the amount of fiat that is out there.
Bitcoin by far is the lesser of two evils when it comes to that.
Yes, a pure Bitcoin standard, that's as hard cap as it gets, but we're not naive enough to know or not understand that there's paper Bitcoin out there.
(36:34):
The other thing with Bitcoin that brings us together even more so, I believe, is the fact that properly stored, it's unconfiscatable.
It's unconfiscatable for you.
And there's a morality to that.
Like the only thing, the actual work that you put in that store, that value that you put in that you store and you control.
You know, the goal, for example, most people don't even physically hold their own goal, but it's physical.
(36:59):
And those two things in concert, I think, are where Bitcoin has that moral superiority over any other type of asset out there.
Yeah, I do think back to what TC was saying, too.
It's like, for some reason, we try to personalize this for people.
And I think it's a sales pitch sometimes to include morality in it to say, hey, the world's going to be perfect.
(37:26):
Bitcoin fixes this.
And you should be a part of this for that reason.
And I don't think that we focus as much sometimes, not everybody, but on what Pubby was talking about, which is all of these other features that were created, you know, with the backdrop of this supply cap that make Bitcoin so significant and why people should be paying a lot more attention.
(37:54):
wanted to let's see hands are funny on my screen but wanted to say good morning to Jimmy Jimmy did
you have some thoughts this morning yeah good morning well real quick I you know not everybody
is a Bitcoiner gets affected by any means and just because somebody has Bitcoin doesn't mean
they're going to be morale or have a higher morality or you know they call it lame to be a
(38:16):
maxi doesn't mean anything it's just words but the fact that matter I see is that when people are
living on the fiat standard they're living in fear there's never enough and they're always going
because of inflation some of us once you get enough and some people don't say there's enough
if you got they stay on the grind but a lot of bitcoiners i've noticed when they step off to the
side and start living on the bitcoin standard and they've been in it long enough they have an
(38:38):
incredible wealth all of a sudden and they're not about lambos they're not about rolexes in all
cases and it does change them but it's them changing themselves just because they have a
different time preference just because they they get to this point of like hey i could give i can
And they seem to want to solve problems more than they want to just have a bunch of wealth.
Now, is that everybody? No.
And you'd be amazed how many OGs I know that trade tricklings.
(39:00):
They don't call themselves maxis. They're traders.
Now, in some cases, they're people that are saying they're maxis, and they really aren't.
Whatever.
Don't use their words, but it's their actions.
And I have seen more people in this group of people around the world that I have met.
I have known many wealthy people in my life.
I've never seen so many wealthy people, not all of them, but many of them,
(39:20):
that now become concerned with the problems of life in the future and children and generations ahead.
And, you know, it's just a different mindset.
And, you know, they look at me, why are you doing what you're doing?
Many people understand it because they're doing the same thing.
And that is they're not about just making more money.
And so, yeah, I think it does change.
It's just a tool.
Bitcoin is a tool just like fiat.
But fiat is not just a tool of money.
(39:40):
It's a tool of control.
Bitcoin is not.
This is something we've never had.
Global money that nobody can control.
And people can use it.
Now they can make it illegal.
It'll be pirate money.
it will still be used.
I guarantee you, you're not taking this away from the world now.
So, yeah, eventually it could eat up an awful lot of things.
But, you know, I don't know if it's the ultimate solution or hyper-Bitcoinization will happen.
(40:02):
But when hyper-Bitcoin happens, it's going to happen from many people.
Ninety percent of the people are going to use Bitcoin because everybody's using it,
not because there's some morality to it.
It really is, you know, people come in, number go up, they come in for payment systems,
they come in for all these other reasons.
Some of them get affected because they're finally not living in fear any longer.
And they live in a place of love.
(40:23):
They get to this place of like, wow, I can give.
I don't have to just take, take, take and be so concerned.
So I believe that that space, you know, that time preference change doesn't affect everybody.
But those that it affects, it affects them individually.
Like I'm doing what I'm doing.
Nobody's got a gun to my head to do what I do.
And I'm much more giving than I've ever been in my life.
I mean, I just don't care about money and the way people are raised to.
(40:46):
And, you know, I'm different. I was raised differently.
But at the same time, I've run into tons of people with the same attitude.
So, you know, I do believe it affects people.
I don't believe it affects everybody by any means.
So why do people get so butthurt when Bitcoiners aren't living the way or don't have the same ideas as everyone else?
(41:08):
And we kind of talked about this a couple of weeks ago about, you know, this cult or culture that we have in the Bitcoin space, especially on X.
Why do people get so bent out of shape when there's disagreements about certain topics or, you know, like you mentioned, Jimmy, some people are still gambling, right?
(41:29):
They're trading shit coins.
Why do people get so bent out of shape?
Like, is there this like one?
I had a guy trying to convince me the other day I should get back into trading.
I said, if I did, it'd be Bitcoin only.
And I do futures and I can do it.
But at the same time, I just don't need to do it.
I don't care.
But yes, it's almost like he's bothered that I don't want to follow him down that trail.
(41:50):
And then there's the Bitcoinermaxies that are like, if you don't do it my way.
This is what gets me.
It's not freedom.
When you're going around telling people what they should and shouldn't do, I don't want to be told what to be done.
It's like this is what I love about Bitcoin.
I know people of all different religions, all different politics, all different ideas.
But, yeah, we have something in common.
And, you know, that's the part that I enjoy.
(42:11):
But, you know, is everybody?
No.
And there's a lot of young people in the space that don't have, you know, and they get emotional.
And, you know, many people, when they find something, they want everybody to do it because they really believe in it, right?
And they're like, oh, yeah, you've got to do this.
But going around to your friends and family and trying to orange pill them is the worst thing you could do.
If you can't get them asking questions, you're just trying to shove something down their throat.
And then you look like a cult and you act like, you know, you're nuts, right?
(42:33):
And they're just like, you're crazy.
I don't do that.
I've never done that.
And my friends, they have to come and call me and say, okay, you know about Bitcoin.
Now we want to get into it.
Okay.
That's it.
I don't sit there every conversation, but I also don't talk to a lot of normies because we get bored with their conversations.
So, you know, but it is a thing that I would recommend to people, even with this core in the knots.
I run both.
You know, it's like this whole fighting and infighting.
(42:55):
You know, it's actually good in the sense it does get better tech, but at the same time, keep it down.
Keep the passion, you know, control yourselves because, yeah, people get really wound up about shit.
And I just laugh.
I'm like, I'm a guy. I don't I've got no, you know, with more years, you just get to her like, let it play out, wait and see how it goes.
And if people say there's something and they're not, well, that happens all the time.
(43:16):
And humans will be humans. TX is right. There's no doubt about it.
You're not taking that away from us. So just because Bitcoin's involved doesn't mean it's going to make everybody a moral person.
But I do believe it does help a lot more find a more moral life for themselves.
And they just end up doing it for themselves. And that's pretty cool.
So, yeah, go ahead and then we'll go to Pubby.
(43:38):
Yeah, I find myself agreeing quite a bit with what Jimmy was saying there.
And it's funny, my stage has been frozen, but I instantly recognized TC, Pubby, and Jimmy's voices as soon as they started talking.
We've all been in spaces so many years now.
But, yeah, I agree with what Jimmy is saying.
(43:58):
It's not going to change people.
I mean, that's what I said earlier, right?
But I think to answer your question, Bob, why people get butthurt, why there's so much emotion, my take on it is that money itself is a complicated topic that a lot of people don't fully understand all of the different variables and factors that go into what money is, what it represents, what is good versus bad money.
(44:22):
What kind of – is our money right now good or bad?
They just – they're just not there, right?
And Bitcoin, to add an extra layer, is a complicated thing.
It takes time to really understand what it is and what the contrasts are between it and other types of money and other assets.
And a lot of people who want to get involved usually do so because of the performance to date.
(44:49):
And they're like, oh, I want to get on board this fucking train.
And so in their lack of understanding, they outsource some of that to people they believe
have a better handle on it, people they think are further down the track, and that they
just look for, inherently, look for someone who can explain it to them.
And some folks, which I would say a lot of us on this stage are the types of folks where
(45:12):
we might do that for a while, but our learning is really done by ourselves.
You know, we do a lot of our own research, a lot of our own thinking.
We parse ideas.
We don't just take what people say and go, oh, that sounds good.
I'm adopting that as my entire identity.
But there are a lot of people who do that.
And in this space, since we don't have a marketing team, there's not a central group controlling
(45:32):
anything.
The narratives are really driven by who is the most popular influencer with the biggest
reach, who wrote the coolest book, who made the most banger podcast, et cetera.
And over time, those people, which is, it doesn't matter who they are.
I'm not going to blame any individual.
It's just the fact of how it is that it is a very small group of people who are presenting narrative views that many others have now adopted for themselves.
(45:58):
And while there are folks like us who will continue our learning, there are many people who they kind of stop there.
And like they might just say, oh, I just like the way this guy's worldview is.
That makes sense to me.
I think that's what's going to happen.
And they just kind of run with it.
And anything that challenges that down the road gets an immediate negative response from them because they don necessarily have the complexity of thought or understanding to really go okay I don agree with that How could they be wrong How does this affect how I think Let me
(46:28):
evolve my own thinking to kind of incorporate some of those views. A lot of people just can't do that
shit. Bayesian inferencing and critical thinking, they're not common skills. And so I think what we
end up with a lot, the tribalism, what people call a cult, is really just kind of a representation of
what exists in pockets of humanity everywhere. We're in Bitcoin, but these things exist in sports
(46:52):
teams and fucking, you know, religions and other kinds of cultural phenomena. And so there's always
a group of individuals who think for themselves, who are not zealous about their beliefs, but may
have high convictions. And then there are a lot of others in the Pareto distribution. Those others
tend to be like 80, 90% of people who have a much simpler perspective on it. And they kind of just
(47:17):
follow the trending winds of narrative. And so, you know, when someone comes along, like myself,
I am like, maybe to a fault, I insist on finding my own way towards a problem, right? Like I almost,
like, in an autistic way, reject what other people say, no, I'm going to go figure out my
(47:37):
own opinion, and then I'll come back to you and we can talk about it. And I do it all the time.
And so when someone like myself comes out and says, like, I think this popular idea in Bitcoin
doesn't make any sense. And here's the reasons why I think that. I get a lot of people calling
me a fucking idiot and a fiat-brained cuck retard. And I have fun staying poor. And they
(47:58):
bust out all of the little turns of phrase and all the little colloquialisms that the tribe has
adopted. And it just becomes so tiring. But at the end of the day, I know that that doesn't
represent what Bitcoin is, doesn't change anything about what it is that these people think this way
or that they react that way to myself and others. It's just kind of the way human nature is. And
(48:20):
they don't bother me. But I think we just have to identify that like, that is just going to exist
at all times. And since we don't have an agreed upon mission or purpose for what Bitcoin is or
what it's supposed to achieve or anything. We never will.
We're kind of always going to be dealing with this, I think.
(48:42):
Yeah, it's definitely interesting. Pubby, wanted to make sure to get to you.
And then I think I see Jimmy's hand again.
Yeah, I remember the one conversation we had about, you know, the cult and whatnot.
And at the end of the day, we're still humans and any Bitcoin here, you're still human.
And the puritanism, as I like to call it, the Bitcoin puritans that come out, the ones that got here very early, you can equate to someone that, you know, running.
(49:07):
Anyone can run.
But, you know, first ones here that are Olympic level runners.
Well, what's a runner?
Is it someone new coming in off the street that's not as fast as you, can't run as far as you?
And you have these ones, folks that understand the technical side of this.
And, you know, why is it so important?
While they look at it like this may be the greatest threat and fight that we have is control over world currency and the fairness of it all.
(49:34):
And so you see that.
And you see all the time people come in.
Oh, you're not running a node.
You're not running two nodes.
Why don't you self-custody yet?
Why do you have it on an exchange?
And it's just human nature of how you view Bitcoin.
That's the exact same thing as nods and nodes going on, man.
And like you say, the personalities that get involved in this, all personality driven.
(49:56):
And obviously, this is all crab market stuff, by the way.
If you're new here, this always happens.
We go sideways, we'll find things to just fight about.
But at the end, you cannot remove the human element out of this, which is great.
And this is why you have these arguments in these spaces.
It's a big family that gets into fights until someone from the outside picks on them.
Then we come together.
(50:19):
Yeah, that's really good.
Hey, could I just jump in on some of that?
Because there's absolutely a struggle when it comes to anything sort of new that's transformative.
And I believe that that's what happens in Bitcoin for most people, the vast majority of people.
(50:42):
If you actually start acquiring Bitcoin and you start interacting with other Bitcoiners, there are social changes that occur.
There's drastic perspective changes that occur. And now you're bumping into the other people in your life and you suddenly find yourself as an alien. But it's, you know, it's a thing of complexity and big ideas.
(51:08):
But there's also, you know, I think the core issue to tie it back to the supply topic at the beginning about scarcity.
And if you actually value some of these concepts, you might find yourself literally opposed to the rest of your community around you.
(51:30):
And because we're living through a time, I think it's really important to recognize this is a time in history where there's really strong forces pushing people to, you know, do basically bad behavior.
It's really crazy.
Everybody is kind of like abusing their own health and essentially gambling financially and a whole bunch of other behaviors that, you know, when you kind of discover this Bitcoin thing,
(52:00):
It seems to steer people in a different direction.
And then you're really sitting from a point of view of attempting to sort out right and wrong, good and bad.
And that is an environment in which you're never going to find a chorus of everybody agreeing on everything.
In fact, you'll find a bunch of really strong-headed people constantly butting heads over every little thing.
(52:25):
And lo and behold, that's what we see in Bitcoin.
So I think it's a fascinating study of human behavior and psychology.
Bitcoin does seem to kind of be a catalyst for stirring all that up.
Yeah, Jimmy, I want to go to you, but it did make me think of something.
I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on this.
Like if you saw Mechanic's hour and six minute presentation, I'll call it, over the weekend, you notice that he tried to use this, you know, the consequences of what could be like one example of, you know, misuse of the Bitcoin blockchain and how if you support that, you're culpable.
(53:13):
So I'm just curious, like, does that prove what TC is saying, which is that, well, part of what you're saying, TC, but that, like, basically, people are going to try to convince you in different ways and try to make it personal.
And that there's actual, like, real harm being done if you act in a certain way.
(53:38):
what do you guys think about you know i know this has been kicked around for a couple of weeks now
but what do you guys think about this uh mechanic uh diatribe over the weekend did anybody watch
you're referring you're referring to the fact that you're putting illegal data on your node
okay yeah that's what i thought yeah and it's been an old age-old argument ever since i've been in
(54:02):
bitcoin they've talked about this and so this is the problem with relaying information same thing
and nostril when you relay information if you're if you have a server you might end up with child
porn and that's what they brought up but anything illegal as far as data it could be treasonous data
it could be you know spy files whatever um yeah if it's on your server the government it gives them
an ink it gives them a way to say we have to come check their server and this is something that has
(54:26):
been an issue for a long time so it's not you know it's not that it's new or that it and people
saying, oh, that's been around. So it's still a problem. It is an issue. It can be a legal issue
in the United States. I don't know about all countries, but they've made a very good inkling
and people like Elizabeth Warren, whether it's legal or not, they may be able to get warrants
and be able to go into servers because it gives them that door because they can suspect, well,
(54:48):
you've got illegal material on your server and you may not even know you're doing it. This is back
to the old idea of if you're hosting a website and how did Ross Ulbrich end up in prison? Same
Same kind of thing. You host a website, you're liable for all the illegalities that are going on on it.
Well, that can be a problem when you don't even know and you're just relaying information.
So that's his point. And, you know, I agree that it can be a legal issue.
(55:10):
I still don't know, you know, completely between the knots and core.
I've studied a lot and I'm not going to get into that.
But like I said, I run them both and I love mechanics.
Good friend. I don't think he's wacky. I don't think he's crazy.
I don't think he's, you know, but at the same time, you know, it's going to play out.
And that's what I love about Bitcoin. If it's still an option.
And that's what these filters are.
There's still a choice.
It's not censorship, but you can run either one.
(55:31):
You can turn them on and off.
Well, that to me is still an option.
So let it play out.
You know, just hold on.
There's an interesting nuance, though, that I, and again, I don't have a, you know, opinion
right or wrong.
Fundamentally, I think it's really something everybody needs to just consider is that if
you run a node, you're a participant in a decentralized network.
(55:51):
And that is fundamentally a different thing than just using your personal computer for your personal computing. It's a completely different behavior. And I would just urge people to look at it from that point of view and be honest with yourself. Oh, okay, I'm going to run a Bitcoin node. What does that actually mean?
and it's a i think it is a different thing i i actually use my my my home node is running on its
(56:15):
own little box for that very reason because the behavior that i do on my personal computer is
you know a whole bunch of activity has nothing to do with a decentralized network necessarily
and i think it's important for everyone to consider and be conscious what are the what
are the behaviors you're doing? Also look at what is the benefit to you for making a choice there.
(56:38):
I think simply making the choice to run a node is a very significant one and it can be a big
responsibility and it can bring a lot of benefits. Oh, wow. Where have we seen that pattern before?
That's all over Bitcoin. So you have, you know, incredible sort of, you know, powers that come
(56:59):
from wielding Bitcoin, and there's also great responsibility that comes from it.
But there's a dynamic there that's real unique,
and it's different than our use of other computers.
And so I think that's just stuff people should ponder.
Jimmy, you saw you come off mute.
(57:19):
Did you have a comment before?
I was just going to say, well, running not is really just, like I said,
filters you can turn off.
Now, what I understand is that, you know, it doesn't really work.
I mean, in a sense, it's not stopping the miners from putting that in the box, but it is the mempool.
And so in a way, it's like, really, I look at not just not really that it's effective.
It's a signal.
The reason people are going to knots, I believe, is because they're the ones that are saying, you know what?
(57:43):
I want this to be a payment network.
I want this to be a money network.
I don't want this to be a data cloud or a cloud server.
I don't want this to be relaying a bunch of data that doesn't relate to the global financial system that we're trying to replace.
You know, that's that's why I think they're doing it.
And to me, it's just a signal.
It's just showing a lot of core people like we do care about this.
And you keep saying it doesn't matter.
But obviously, to an awful lot of Bitcoiners, it does.
(58:05):
And I think that's really just a signal.
It's really not affecting anything yet.
Now, it could turn into something and we'll see how it plays out.
But again, I'm watching with great interest.
I was through the block wars.
I've been through a lot of these, you know, the whole thing with BSV and cash and all this stuff that's happened.
I think it just makes Bitcoin stronger and some good is going to come out of this.
But, you know, it just, you know, hang on and see how it plays out.
(58:28):
Yeah, I can't remember who is saying it, but it's so true that when we are, maybe it was you, Jimmy, but when we're going sideways, these are the types of things that happen.
People get bored and want to find fight things, fight about all kinds of things.
And so, you know, part of the passion.
(58:50):
It was a passion.
Yeah, and maybe some people are salespeople too, for one reason or another.
So I don't know.
I always try to be a little bit skeptical of these things and try to do some digging myself.
But I do like the debate.
I think it helps people think and maybe challenge some of your own biases, some of your thoughts, how you use Bitcoin.
(59:17):
I did like TC's point about separating your node from, you know, your personal computer.
I do think that's actually a good, and most people probably do, to be frank.
They're not running their node software on the same.
Oh, connect your wallets.
A lot of people run nodes and don't really use them.
(59:39):
And they don't realize to be sovereign, you connect your wallet to that node and you do your own transactions.
So they're almost there.
But I know a lot of people.
I've talked to them.
They're like, oh, how do you do that?
And they didn't even know.
They're just running the node thinking they're doing something good.
And I'm like, no, you've got to use it.
And they're like, how do you mean?
And I connect them up, and they're like, oh.
So now you're sending your own transactions, and you're seeing it,
and nobody else is seeing what you're doing.
(01:00:00):
And this is where you get your privacy and your sovereignty.
So that's just an add-on because I know there are a fair amount that run the node
and haven't got there yet.
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree.
I think too many people are convinced to run a node because it's a net good for the network.
But you're right, dead on, Jimmy, that this is a way for you to broadcast transactions without permission.
(01:00:25):
And that's the whole point of Bitcoin.
So if you're out there thinking about running a node, yeah, consider some of these things that we've been talking about today.
But wanted to wind down the show and say thank you guys for this Tuesday that feels like a Monday.
We're going to wrap it up here, but I want to thank everybody who joined us today,
everyone who had us on in the background, all the speakers for the lively discussion.
(01:00:50):
And by the way, guys, please do follow everybody that came up here on stage.
Great signal.
If you need help on your Bitcoin journey, like running a node or something else,
please visit BitcoinVeterans.org and throw your information in there.
We'll get you plugged into valuable resources to help you along your journey.
But that's all we have for today.
And I wanted to remind you once again, as we do every day, do not shitcoin.
(01:01:20):
It's like sitting at the cool table in the cafeteria at a mental hospital.
Well, people that use fiat currency as a store of value, we call them a core.
(01:01:42):
We call them a core.
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