The Fold Effect with Guest Hailey Lennon Ep. 251

Join Bob and special guest Hailey Lennon from Fold's General Counsel Team.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Thank you.

(00:30):
All right, guys, as is par for the course, I am unable to turn the stage,
so I'm going to do this from the BV handle this morning since we have a guest.

(00:51):
And so fun stuff.
Always good.
Always a fun morning here on Bitcoin Veterans.
But I want to welcome everybody to Bitcoin Veterans Faces number 251.
They're letting me do this again today for some reason, despite all of my technical difficulties.

(01:11):
My name is Bob Van Kirk. I'll be your host this morning.
And excited to be with everybody. Thanks for joining.
Excited to have a guest as well.
And we will hop into talking with Haley from Fold here in just a few minutes.
But let's take a look at the time chain today.

(01:33):
Where are we at, guys?
People are freaking out, I think.
Bitcoin is, it crashed again.
No, I'm just kidding.
$110,000, wow.
All right.
We are at Bitcoin block height number 911, 791.
with the price around $110,000, which I know has a lot of people crying.

(01:56):
But this is your wake-up call.
You can now get around 909 sats for each U.S. dollar.
So get stacking.
A couple of announcements, and then we'll get into it here.
Let's see.
Bitcoin Veterans is having their second annual summit on November 10th and 11th in Nashville, Tennessee.
Day one is going to be a conference day, with day two being range day.

(02:19):
We're looking for people to get involved.
Whether you want to be a speaker, come up with a panel topic, be a volunteer,
or just join us to hang out, have fun, and maybe learn how to use firearms properly,
visit bitcoinveterans.org forward slash summit 2025 to get involved.

(02:41):
All right.
Let's see.
Tomorrow we're going to have Texas Toast as a guest host along with Captain Trips, who you've been seeing up here.
And on Thursday, we will have the MyInBitcoin conference on to speak to us about their conference coming up in early December in beautiful Yucatan Peninsula, Mexico.

(03:09):
and with that want to go around the horn and see how everybody's doing this morning we'll go ladies
first Haley thanks for joining us and wanted to say good morning to you how are you doing hey good
morning I'm doing great I actually like when the price crashes because we can all stack some more
I think it's funny now that we've mentioned it as stack or crashing when it's when it's still so

(03:34):
far above 100k but um no i'm very excited to be here thanks for having me
yeah awesome uh always always great to have guests and appreciate you coming on neil wanted
to say good morning to you how are you doing this morning sir i'm doing great watering the grass
uh yes grass watering it's good stuff uh texas toast good morning sir how are you

(04:01):
Good morning. I didn't hear the network crash. There's no more blocks. What happened?
Yep, it's all over 16 years down the drain. Coleman, how are you this morning?
Hey, I'm doing good. I'm traveling. Again, just want to echo Bob and thank Haley for

(04:25):
taking time out of her day to join us. And I really look forward to this discussion.
Yeah, awesome.
And before I go to BFP, wanted to remind the audience, if you guys want to participate,
you have questions for the panel or our guests, please feel free to come up.
Hit that microphone button in the bottom left.
We'd love to have you up here.

(04:46):
If you can't come up and speak or you're too afraid, you can use that.
Comments, purple pill in the bottom right.
Type your question, comments, night remark, or funny meme.
BFP, how are you doing this morning?
Good morning, Bob. Thanks for having me.

(05:07):
Yes, sir. Always good to have you. And Captain Trips, how are you this morning, sir?
Good morning, Bob. Just found a good thread I'll share. Maybe we'll talk about later since we've got a lawyer on the call.
Some Cornell professor thinks that the government will take over and ban Bitcoin. More to follow.
yeah i'll remind the audience here too uh this space does not provide financial or legal advice

(05:36):
so uh keep that in mind with our conversation but would love to hop into it and uh yeah for
those of you who don't know haley uh she works for fold chief legal counsel is that right haley
Yeah, general counsel. I've been with Fold about eight months, so it's been a busy, busy year.

(05:59):
Yeah, I can imagine. So why don't you just tell us, like, let's not start off with Fold. Let's start off with you.
Tell us a little bit about your history. I know just from kind of paying attention over time that you've had a lot of different experiences in the Bitcoin and fintech space.

(06:19):
And I think, didn't you work at Coinbase and also Silvergate at one time?
And so tell me a little bit about your history.
Tell us all about your history and then we'll kind of go from there.
Yeah, happy to.
Yeah, I've been working in the Bitcoin and crypto space since about 2013, 14.

(06:40):
Part of my sort of resume and history that I don't talk about a lot, but I think it's pretty interesting,
is that before getting into crypto and Bitcoin, I worked at a company. So I went to law school in
San Diego and I joined a company called Dollar X as a second year attorney. And what they did was

(07:00):
wholesale currency exchange along the San Diego and Mexico border. So they were really had the
armored cars, would go to the little exchange centers along the Mexico border and do wholesale
currency exchange. So if you think about it, the exchange centers on the U.S. side at the end of the
week would have like a surplus of pesos when they needed dollars. And the exchange centers on the

(07:26):
Mexico side would have a surplus of dollars at the end of the week from doing currency exchange.
And those little exchange centers couldn't get traditional banking services because of,
you know, money laundering risks and just sort of enhanced risk of their business in general.
And so I joined this company without really knowing much yet about compliance, anti-money laundering,

(07:54):
and some of the sort of financial regulatory aspects of traditional finance. And so I was there
about a year and would actually sometimes go to these exchange centers, see the armored cars,
just like see the friction of traditional finance and like moving physical dollars around and the

(08:15):
headache with exchange rates and all this stuff. And so it was then that I actually started to
learn about Bitcoin because I was seeing firsthand just how insane, you know, physical currency
transportation and movement across borders was. And at the same time, just sort of coincidentally,

(08:36):
Silvergate Bank found my resume on LinkedIn and reached out and said, you know, we're looking to
do a banking product for cryptocurrency companies, but we're going to need to do
due diligence on these companies the same way your company is doing due diligence on these

(08:58):
little exchange centers. So it was really interesting how my path sort of shifted very
quickly away from this very physical money company to Silvergate Bank, which was a very
forward-looking bank looking to bank the industry. So I always think that that's kind of an interesting

(09:19):
aspect of my path. But yeah, then I joined Silvergate, and that's really when I went down
the rabbit hole of Bitcoin, started getting more familiar with all the different companies in the
industry that were looking for bank accounts and really had like as my first job in the industry
had this incredible bird's eye view of how different companies if you think of Coinbase

(09:45):
and Kraken and Gemini and all these companies sort of in the early days that were that couldn't get
traditional bank accounts and just had a really interesting bird's eye view of their team and how
their team functioned and how they were approaching regulation. And so that was sort of when my eyes
were open to, oh, this is a fully functioning industry already with very intelligent people

(10:10):
running these companies. And we just kind of built out that bank from there. And then from that,
I wanted to go more in-house into an exchange. And so I started at Bitflyer, which is pretty much the
it's kind of the Coinbase of Japan. It's like the household name in Japan for an exchange.

(10:33):
And I helped them get their money transmitter licenses and New York Bit license. Then joined
Brian Brooks at Coinbase. He was a mentor and someone I wanted to work with. And so worked at
Coinbase for a little over a year. Then went back into private practice. I actually kind of had

(10:53):
been in-house for so many years and wanted to start representing various clients in the industry.
So that's what I was doing the last four years. And then this opportunity with Fold arose and
happy to, you know, dig into Fold later in the conversation and kind of explain what,
what about Fold made me want to jump back into in-house life and the fast-paced environment that,

(11:18):
that that is. Yeah, especially with becoming a publicly traded company, wanted to make sure
everybody can hear me. I was able to reboot my device. Are you coming through okay? Yep.
Awesome. Sorry, I had to switch handles there. Super interesting. So you've been around for quite

(11:39):
some time. And, you know, I guess I'm just wondering, just with your extensive experience,
what made you like what made you go down the Bitcoin rabbit hole? Like at what point? I think
you kind of mentioned Silvergate, but was that more just because you needed to know it for your

(12:00):
clients or was it because it was something that interests you or both? Yeah, I would say that I
actually started hearing of Bitcoin when I was working at that wholesale currency exchange. And
And as I mentioned, it was just, I mean, that was such a unique experience.
And I don't think a lot of people get to see firsthand how insane the transportation of

(12:24):
physical cash is.
It's just so cumbersome.
And if you think about sort of other industries and how tech forward they are, when you think
of traditional finance, and then you actually see it at play, it's kind of shocking to see
how money is moved around and how it all functions.
But so that's when I first started hearing the word Bitcoin and got interested.

(12:50):
But I think, yeah, Silvergate Bank definitely propelled me into just starting to have really interesting conversations with, you know, the founders of these companies and start looking into it more.
And, you know, it's it's interesting as an attorney, in some ways you can't professionally, it's difficult to be Bitcoin only because laws and regulations apply to cryptocurrency in general.

(13:18):
But I think because of my, you know, when I got into this space, I've always been Bitcoin only like that, that it stands alone in my mind.
And so that's, yeah, Silvergate is really when I started going down the rabbit hole.
And then, you know, as as I was part of Bitflyer and Coinbase, there were so many things happening in the industry at the same time.

(13:40):
And that's also when all these altcoins and shitcoins started flying around and started to really be part of business models.
So it's definitely been an interesting journey.
But, you know, I'm still learning things every day.
I think it's such an interesting technology and my background's law.

(14:00):
So sometimes I'm still learning things about the tech itself.
Yeah, I'm switching back to the other handle. You'll have to forgive me. I thought I had that going well, but I didn't. So I did miss some of that. But I think we appreciate that explanation.
So you've gone down the Bitcoin rabbit hole and obviously now you're working for a Bitcoin only company.

(14:28):
Has that made your life easier not having to deal with all these other technologies, as I'll call them?
At the end of the show, I do have other words to describe them.
But these other technologies being kind of weeded out, being with a Bitcoin-only company, does that make your life easier as an attorney?

(14:50):
Yeah, in a lot of ways it does.
And it just also makes me more committed to the actual products we're launching and the goals we have as an organization.
I mean, I think I was in private practice for four years.
And with the change of administration with Trump being elected after he launched a meme coin all of a sudden my inbox was just flooded with potential clients looking for representation of these meme coins And I started to feel a little

(15:20):
bit like emotionally drained from that, like just the idea of that becoming a big part of my
role was helping companies launch things. I've always been an attorney that wants to truly sort
of believe in some of the things that I'm providing legal advice on. So I think that there's,

(15:40):
I'm sure we'll talk about it more later in the show, but there's been this interesting
shift in the regulatory environment that has allowed Bitcoin to flourish. But it's also,
you know, Gary Gensler is no longer with the SEC. We have a president that's launching
meme coins. And so it's also sort of complicated the legal. Yeah, everything's just become a little

(16:07):
bit more gray. And I've just always felt like Bitcoin stands alone from a regulatory perspective.
And so now the work at Fold is, for me, a lot more, it's just more meaningful because it's
actually my focus is how do we integrate Bitcoin into typical products rather than, for example,

(16:30):
at Coinbase, like trying to do a Howie analysis to determine if a certain coin could be added to
the exchange. Like this is just much more in line with where I'm at and thinking about for the
industry. Yeah, it's really good. And I do want to encourage other people on the panel, if you guys
want to jump in. That's great. But you brought up this idea of, I think, a lack of clarity. And

(16:58):
we do have now with this Trump administration, this Clarity Act that hasn't passed yet, but is
getting maybe some traction. We'll see if it gets passed by the end of the year. But in light of
that Clarity Act, and then just also knowing you had a fireside chat at Bitcoin 2025 conference

(17:19):
in Las Vegas with SEC Commissioner Hester Pierce.
What were some of the key takeaways from that discussion,
particularly regarding the balance between innovation and regulatory compliance?
Yeah, yeah, that fireside chat was incredible.
And I mean, in a lot of ways, like just the ethos of Bitcoin is sort of obviously,

(17:44):
having the government allow innovation and technology to just do its thing without
burdensome regulation. So in a lot of ways, I know that this change of administration is really good
for Bitcoin. I think that the Clarity Act that you mentioned and just this idea of what does the

(18:06):
SEC regulate versus what does the CFTC regulate, if you just take a step back, the SEC is definitely
thought of as a more difficult and aggressive regulator. And so as possibly more tokens are
considered commodities rather than securities, whereas Bitcoin was always the standalone,

(18:29):
even under Gary Gensler, he was willing to say that Bitcoin was a commodity. Like if other tokens
start to be considered commodities, that they're actually benefiting more from some of this
regulation than Bitcoin. And so that's sort of my only concern is I don't really think the
industry as a whole was being regulated the right way to begin with. But I'm also not sure that more

(18:56):
cryptocurrencies being considered commodities besides Bitcoin is the way we should be heading
either. So there's sort of a, I talk about it as a pendulum swing in terms of, you know, sort of
nothing was being allowed and the whole industry felt really, you know, kind of under the thumb of

(19:19):
the SEC and the government. And now it's shifting the other way. But yeah, it'll just be, it'll be
interesting to see. I think, you know, if you also think about it, the SEC was not only just heavily
regulating these altcoin projects, but they had really prevented things like Bitcoin lending
and aspects of things that only apply to Bitcoin.

(19:43):
So I do think that it's a positive thing that we're trying to find more clarity for the industry.
Yeah, that's really good.
And I do want to give Neil a chance to ask a question or make a comment.
I see his hand there.
Go ahead, Neil.
Yeah, I just had a question. You have a pretty unique perspective where the rubber meets the road as far as the policy stuff goes.

(20:11):
So for like just a normal, normal, regular person in Bitcoin, if they're trying to advocate to their representatives and stuff and participate in the political process, what would be the single greatest like policy push you would suggest to them to push to help the onboarding of all Bitcoin like from your from your perspective?

(20:35):
It's a really good question.
I mean, I've always thought that part of the regulator that maybe we don't talk enough about is the IRS and the tax implications.
So I don't think I can single-handedly explain how we should push policy in that direction.
But, you know, I think even under Trump, there's been mentions of like de minimis tax exceptions and things.

(21:01):
All of that just allows individuals to participate within the Bitcoin ecosystem in new ways, in ways that they're comfortable with without being as concerned about tax implications.
So for me, that's sort of what I've been more interested in.

(21:21):
I think some of these acts that are going forward, like the Genius Act, the Clarity Act, the Anti-CBDC Act, you know, that's about stable coins.
That's about CBDCs.
That's about the SEC and the CFTC and how they should regulate the industry.
but to me there's a little there's still some pressure just on everyday users of bitcoin

(21:45):
and so i think that's that's an interesting area as well
yeah thanks for that and i think you're speaking captain tripp's love language when you start
talking about the irs uh but sal i see your hand there go ahead good morning all uh thanks for
hosting this space. Haley, big fan. I'm glad I was able to support your tweet a couple weeks ago

(22:12):
as far as executive orders, EOs, and policy. And my question to you is, you know, I love the
Bitcoin veterans community. They're an emerging, powerful voting bloc, policy bloc. And within
the context of emerging voting blocs, such as Bitcoin veterans, since this is the audience,
I would love to get your take on, you know, what can veterans as a voting bloc, and obviously at a state level, but also at a federal level in D.C., how do you suggest that they engage the regulators?

(22:46):
I understand that there is a representative for this community speaking tomorrow in Illinois, I believe, or next week.
So, Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but they're starting to mobilize in a decentralized manner to engage at state levels and federal levels.
But you have a bird's eye view of sort of the whole ecosystem within Bitcoin.
I'm a big fan of what you do, what the Fall app does.

(23:07):
So we'd love to get your perspective just in general, right, to this audience of how can they engage, right?
And we'd love to just get your bird's eye view on that.
Thank you for all you do.
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, I mean, just as a side note, I really don't do Twitter spaces often.
And this one was especially interesting to me because I'm a big supporter of veterans and just what you've contributed to the country.

(23:33):
And, you know, Bitcoin represents a lot of those values of freedom.
And so I think that that this group does have a specific voice in the Bitcoin journey.
You know, I do think there's a lot of opportunity on the state level, I think, as this is becoming a topic in the White House that that, you know, people within the government on the state level want to be educated, want to understand.

(24:00):
I think that's a great way. I've been impressed that Hester Peirce from the SEC has sort of been promoting on her Twitter, like open office hours, really, to just talk.
And especially an organization like this that isn't promoting or wanting to talk her ear off about an altcoin, but just kind of explain, yeah, get her insights, too.

(24:26):
I think I think that's a great way. I, you know, to me, it's always the education piece, no matter who the audience is.
It's the education piece. And, you know, so whether it's thought leadership, like writing, writing blogs or articles, finding out ways to sort of be even sometimes local news is like radio stations are interested.

(24:52):
I just sometimes I think that the focus goes to, you know, getting into President Trump's ear or or or some large conference.
But really, it's just this slow and steady education and conversation that I think really benefits all of us.
So I think that's that's what I would say.

(25:12):
So, Haley, you've we've been kind of talking about the regulatory landscape, just those advancements.
Just out of curiosity and maybe going along with, I think, what Captain Trips mentioned at the beginning of this space was, does Bitcoin need regulation?

(25:37):
I know we talked about clarity, but does Bitcoin succeed without all of this?
Or what are your thoughts on that?
There's kind of like this blending now we see with treasury companies, including Fold, and I think, you know, the ETFs and those things.
And so one of the things we kind of go back and forth on Spaces about is kind of this idea that Bitcoin, if it's used properly, is more than just an investment, right?

(26:08):
It's a tool. And so just curious to hear your thoughts on what you think about the development of maybe the financialization of Bitcoin and whether or not you think Bitcoin needs this.
Yeah, I think it depends on what layer of Bitcoin you're you're thinking about.

(26:28):
So the use of Bitcoin, the idea of Bitcoin is that it's the same as dollar bills in your pocket.
it right. And you should be able to hand hand someone a ten dollar bill and pay them for something
and have that be your your right and your like financial freedom. When it comes to companies in

(26:49):
the space that are sort of, I would say, helping with adoption. And I think that's also up for
debate. Like, what is the best way to orange pill someone and get them into the Bitcoin ecosystem?
But, you know, for companies that that is what they're trying to do, fold included, the regulatory atmosphere is super important because companies, you know, these companies are considered money services businesses.

(27:15):
There are anti-money laundering and terrorist sanction regulations that they need to comply with.
And if you think about it, even if you're the utmost libertarian and against that, the way I think about it is we don't really want, I don't personally want to be promoting an industry that is helping sort of support terrorist organizations or human trafficking in a way that is irresponsible.

(27:48):
I'm not saying you can completely prevent it, but to have some sort of guardrails in place that you're helping to try to prevent some of that activity, I think, is important just for the industry to grow.
So I think it is an interesting, there is a melding going on, right? Because as we become more focalized and, you know, as Trump and Vance and all these regulators are starting to talk more about it, there's also this, yeah, the traditional financial system is getting more involved.

(28:22):
And there's no way that they can get more involved and avoid the regulations that they've had to be complying with to date when it comes to traditional finance.
So it just sort of organically, I think, increases businesses' ability to get into the space, but also to have to comply with those laws and regulations.

(28:45):
Yeah, you bring up some good points there.
I do think it's something we'll probably be debating for quite some time.
I guess what I'd like to do if we can is I know we have to be a little careful of what we say because Fold is a publicly traded company.
So we'll try to not make any forward looking comments or ask questions around that.

(29:09):
But I did want to talk about Fold a little bit.
And maybe we can start out with how just maybe tell the audience a little bit about Fold and what the goal of the organization is, what type of service you guys provide.
And obviously, you're more than just a Bitcoin treasury company, but that is part of it.

(29:32):
And so just curious if you can touch on some of those things for us.
Yeah, I think, I mean, I was very selective in choosing to leave private practice and join a company. I knew that that, you know, I'd been a partner at a law firm for four years. And I knew that me choosing to go back in house was kind of a big shift for me professionally.

(29:54):
And so, you know, how I would describe Fold is this amazing combination of a company that does have a Bitcoin treasury.
We have about almost 15,000, or I'm sorry, 1,500 Bitcoin in our treasury currently.
But we also have this whole suite of products that make earning Bitcoin easy without changing spending habits.

(30:20):
So what I think is unique about Fold is that from the beginning they been Bitcoin only and they focused on products that allow a user who may just want to sort of be passively earning Bitcoin stacking it and seeing the growth you know in an easy way

(30:41):
So I'm happy to kind of go through the products we have and take any questions there if you think that makes sense.
But, yeah, I just I think it's we have we have products that I'm super excited about.
So I would be happy to touch on them.
All I want to know is when I'm getting my credit card.
I talked to our CEO this morning.

(31:03):
I said, you know, I'm going to go on this spaces and I'm going to get a win credit card.
And I know that that is top of mind for all of our, you know, loyal customers and just people who are interested.
For the credit card, I can say that it's under development and that we have an exciting announcement coming out soon.

(31:25):
And I am actually very excited.
The path with the Bitcoin credit card has been hasn't been perfectly smooth, unfortunately.
but I know that the product that we end up coming out with is going to be
better. And I can honestly say that. So, but I wish I could give a better timeline.

(31:45):
Maybe later we can get into the intricacies of being publicly traded and just the
limitations there, but.
You're good.
You're good. I'm just, I know.
I'm just busting. It's got to have a bigger limit than a thousand dollars like the Gemini one.
I'm telling you, it's such a pain.
Yeah. Well, noted. I'll bring that back to the team.
Yeah, I mean, we were excited about it. I think that. Yeah, I think that a Bitcoin credit card by a Bitcoin only company is something to be proud of. So I'm excited for that to finally get under get launched. But yeah, I think I mean, one of the products that we just came out with that I actually think is being slept on a little bit is our Bitcoin gift card.

(32:30):
And so I think it's partly because currently it's been an online, it's, you know, online markets, but the idea will be for it to be in physical retail stores where you would normally see any type of merchant gift cards.
And to me, like the value there is that it makes a very easy way to sort of orange pill friends and family because it eliminates, in my mind, it eliminates two things, right?

(32:58):
One is that a lot of people that aren't in the Bitcoin space are just confused by it because it's virtual.
You know, there's nothing tangible to hold.
It's like, what are you giving me?
What is this?
How do I buy it?
I don't understand it.
And so the idea with Fold's Bitcoin gift card is that it's a physical prepaid gift card that I could give to someone else.

(33:21):
that would have an actual code that they would, you know, obtain an account with Fold,
upload that Bitcoin gift card and the prepaid funds on that card,
and then be able to go through the typical USD to Bitcoin conversion.

(33:43):
And the reason I think that's important is that besides you sort of having a tangible thing to give to someone
and to teach them about this thing, they're also kind of still having to go through the process
of getting onboarded and buying Bitcoin themselves. So it's, you know, a lot of people

(34:03):
might prefer just gifting, just sending Bitcoin to someone. And that's another great way to
sort of orange pill somebody. But this kind of sends someone along through the journey to learn
how a centralized company obviously allows you to onboard and obtain Bitcoin. And I think that

(34:24):
that's kind of an important thing for some people. The second is that a lot of times when I've told
a friend, go buy Bitcoin, you know, and they're just getting started. So they're not going to go
to some advanced like DeFi platform and they aren't going to go buy it direct peer to peer.
their biggest question or concern is, wait, I have to connect a bank account to this. Like,

(34:49):
I don't even understand what Bitcoin is. I don't understand what this company is. And so at least
for this initial sort of push for people to get into the Bitcoin space, you can say, you know,
here's a gift card with the funds already loaded. And that's all that you're sort of like connecting
to a platform to get started.
So that's the most sort of recent product we launched back in May.

(35:16):
And I think that over the next year, we're going to see a lot more interest and adoption
in that.
So that's something pretty exciting, especially like leading into the holidays and things.
I just think it's a kind of a unique experience that we're providing.
yeah i think it'll be cool for a number of reasons one being that you're kind of sending them

(35:39):
to a bitcoin only place as well um and i think it's important that you know somebody like fold or
any bitcoin only exchange kind of comes out with this product first and gets it in all the stores
before because you know coinbase is going to be coming up and they're going to be handing out gift
cards and they're going to be able to say redeem it in whatever cryptocurrency you choose

(36:02):
And then they're going to get on there and they're going to buy not Bitcoin and they're going to get wrecked.
And then it's a waste.
Yeah, I think one thing that really aligns my values with Folds is that there's no sort of hype or speculation or confusion for people who come.

(36:25):
We're currently revamping our entire onboarding and support system to make sure that it's a very smooth onboarding, because obviously that can lead to confusion.
But I'm saying once you're once you're there, it's sort of like we have merchant gift cards like, you know, Amazon gift card that you can buy and earn Bitcoin.
We have a prepaid debit card that we'll send to your house and you can fund with dollars.

(36:48):
And as you spend it, as you normally would, you earn Bitcoin.
We have Bitcoin buy and sell.
We have a Bitcoin gift card and, you know, the soon to be credit card.
And so it's this whole, like I mentioned at the beginning, this suite of products that you all of a sudden aren't being confused by.
What is this other cryptocurrency shown or wait, what is that?

(37:10):
There's just it's the intention is for it to be a very clean interface where you can sort of choose what products do I use in my everyday life already?
Like, oh, I already shop at Amazon. So if I buy an Amazon gift card and I go use it and earn Bitcoin, that's great. I didn't change. I mean, I added one step to the process for myself, but I've now earned Bitcoin rewards, you know, by not changing any other.

(37:38):
I'm not spending more. I'm not, you know, buying directly. So, yeah, I think it's just important to give everyone optionality, but have it be Bitcoin only and just to the point.
Yeah, thanks for that. I'm getting a ton of... Hey, Texas, one second. Just wanted to say, getting a lot of comments in the back channels that Haley is just dropping it. So it's awesome. Thank you so much again for being here.

(38:08):
But go ahead, Texas Toast, and then we'll maybe get a question from BFP, too.
Yeah, sorry, go ahead. BFP, you go ahead, because mine's not pertaining to this line of talk.
So if you got something.
Mine actually is concerning the stock.
I don't know if that's too off topic, but I was just wondering why the stock is so bad acting

(38:33):
when you guys announced and you actually beat with a huge beat and you're already profitable.
It doesn't make sense.
Yeah.
So without going into too much detail, what I can say is that we went public through a SPAC,
which means a merger with another company.

(38:54):
And so there are sort of like there are different stakeholders with different lockup periods.
And I think that sometimes that is is impacting just how how the stock is performing.
But the way we discuss it internally is that like our stock, we view the same as Bitcoin in terms of like long term impact.

(39:22):
And so as we as we mature as a publicly traded company and then continue to launch new products and I can talk a little more about our Bitcoin treasury and ELOC, which was something that we just unlocked.
So, you know, I think I think we're just I think it's very typical for companies when they first go public to have some some interesting stock movement.

(39:50):
I don't think it's anything unique, and it certainly isn't something internally that we're alarmed by.
Obviously, our ultimate goal is to ensure that the company is functioning well, that the stock is functioning well, and that investors are top of mind in decisions we're making.

(40:12):
One comment on that, and then, Texas, we can go with your question.
And I just think, you know, a lot of these Bitcoin treasury companies tend to want to use the capital markets to leverage their balance sheet to buy Bitcoin.
It seems like Fold's done a pretty nice job just from, you know, my casual viewing of stacking Bitcoin and putting it on the balance sheet, but at the same time continuing to invest in actual products.

(40:43):
And so I guess my question is, how do you see Fold's role in educating consumers about Bitcoin?
And what challenges do you face in that effort from like a legal perspective?
Yeah, I think it's something we've actually been discussing internally.
I think that just along with some of these new products that we're rolling out, the Bitcoin gift card being a great example,

(41:09):
that there's a lot of opportunity for more just baseline education of things like you don't have to buy a whole Bitcoin, obviously, and just things like that.
I definitely do think that one of our value propositions is that we aren't just a Bitcoin treasury company.
I think that I think the Bitcoin Treasury company sort of model is is a great one, because what companies are really saying is that they believe in the medium to long term store of value and increase of value that Bitcoin will see.

(41:46):
And that directly will benefit sort of the operations and obviously the Treasury and financial health of the company.
But I think for us, like we we're viewing the Bitcoin treasury as a way to sort of similar to our user base is passively and smartly stack sats.

(42:09):
I mentioned an ELOC. So what that means, it's an equity line of credit that we just had approved by the SEC.
And what that equity line of credit means is that we can start using that to if we need it for operational purposes, products and things, but also for accumulating Bitcoin.

(42:30):
But we also view the timing of that as when the ELOC is fully ready and when it's accredited to shareholders.
So when it's in the best interest of the shareholders to buy an ad, that's the plan.
Um, so yeah, I, I think that just that combination is, um, is really interesting.

(42:53):
And I think that there's, you know, a ton of opportunity.
I think, you know, Saylor, for example, is doing a great job utilizing the fact that his
company has this huge Bitcoin treasury, um, to continue just educating, like using that
as an example of why Bitcoin can really, um, benefit everyone on a personal level as well.

(43:15):
So I think that the two just sort of go hand in hand. But I like that Fold has products that are offering Bitcoin to users. And at the same time, we're like, we're, we're embracing that same approach for our own treasury.
Yeah, that's really good. Thank you for that. Texas Toast, go ahead.

(43:37):
Yeah, for all you knuckle draggers out there, that means they're probably going to buy the dip.
That's what the lawyer speak means.
But anyway, the one question I had is you would think in this line of products and everything that lending is somewhere in the pipeline.

(43:59):
is fold thinking about getting into that game as well with,
because you already have a banking license with,
I think I've seen it somewhere in Missouri or something like that.
Or I was just curious about the,
if there's interest in building out that line of products as well.
Yeah, I can't speak specifically to lending or like a specific product.

(44:23):
We have, we don't personally, we don't ourselves have a banking charter.
We partner with many third parties, including Sutton Bank, for the debit card that we offer.
I think that there's no real limitation to what we're looking at in terms of if Bitcoin can be integrated into it and it's a traditional financial product.

(44:47):
Is that something that we see demand for, especially because our users are all sort of retail users?
and trying to just prioritize in order of looking into.
I mean, every single item we're considering has different regulatory implications.

(45:09):
So it's also just about resources and figuring out where we want to put those resources.
But I think, I mean, I mentioned lending just as something that I think is now opened up
with the SEC being more friendly to this industry.
And, you know, even even the ability for people to use Bitcoin to help take out loans for mortgages.

(45:35):
Like I just think that that an area that definitely moving quickly and is is interesting So yeah I say that I don think that there any traditional financial product that involves Bitcoin that Fold wouldn consider in determining if it makes sense for the future
Yeah, one thing I want to hop back to for people that don't know is Fold had really, I think, gamified Bitcoin stacking by getting a lot of people to come back into their app every day with the spins.

(46:12):
It was probably before your time when that started, Haley, but do you want to talk about the spins and just how that drives users to continually go into the app and use it?
Yeah, it's interesting because it was before my time, but I actually used Fold app before I joined for a while.

(46:36):
And I've talked a lot with our CEO about it because he's been part of Fold since inception and even before it was called Fold.
So, yeah, the gamification is definitely an interesting part of Fold's history.
that it's so the idea is that you go into the app and spin a wheel once a day, you get one spin and

(46:59):
certain things you might be able to earn additional spins. And that gives you the opportunity and a
chance to win certain amounts of Bitcoin. You know, I think the the one one comment we get
sometimes is that the amount that you can win from the spins has, you know, gone down over the years.
And what I think is interesting is if you think back for anyone who was in the industry when there was sort of those faucets online where you could actually just earn Bitcoin for free, obviously the amount of Bitcoin you could earn from free back then was today seems like an insane amount of Bitcoin and value.

(47:42):
But if you actually kind of compare to what you're spinning for today, that value may be the same, the value difference may be the same in 10 years. So, you know, usually it's something like 10 sats a day. And that's, that's pretty, that seems kind of minimal.
But but it's you know, I think it does.

(48:06):
So from a marketing perspective or a product perspective, it definitely promotes daily engagement.
And as I mentioned earlier, you know, our goal is for the app to be very user friendly.
So maybe you're in there and you spin the wheel and then you think, oh, it's so and so's birthday.
I should buy a gift card or, oh, I need to buy something from Amazon today.

(48:30):
Anyways, I should get a merchant gift card for somewhere.
I'm just using Amazon as an example, but we have tons of merchant gift cards on the site.
So I do think that it's created a sense of community.
There's a little, the gamification thing is just sort of a fun aspect to it.
And it definitely threads into the history of Fold.

(48:52):
And I think Fold has had many phases. We're now sort of in this more buttoned up, publicly traded company phase that we're, you know, learning our way around over the last, I joined a few weeks before we went public.
And so it's just been interesting to see. And I think that continuing to figure out our identity as as a fun website with gamification, as well as a, you know, professionally publicly traded company that's providing professional financial products.

(49:31):
We kind of have a nice balance of both of those.
Yeah, thanks for that. And I don't know about everybody else, but this has gone extremely fast. Fascinating stuff. And I think we've kept it mostly positive. One thing that I have in the back of my head is, does Fold ever look at the possibility that traditional financial institutions come into the market and make it easier?

(50:03):
Like, do you guys see that as a threat? How do you how do you think about that?
How do you guys deal with maybe a bank that's been around for quite some time coming into this space?
Yeah, I mean, I think that obviously being certain products having or sort of early having early adoption or sort of being first to market is a benefit.

(50:28):
If you take like the Bitcoin gift card, for example, part of that was possible because of established relationships we have from our years dealing with the merchant gift cards.
So there's some ways in which I think we'll continue to have just like the upper hand and things we provide.

(50:49):
I also think that as if a bank gets into this industry in some way, then perhaps some of the market already uses them and it'll be sort of a streamlined transition.
But at the end of the day, many people want different companies for different things when it touches on Bitcoin.

(51:13):
And any sort of further adoption of Bitcoin from a traditional banking industry, I think, would only benefit the sort of key players that have already existed in this space and already have the technology created and the partnerships created.
So, you know, I think of it as like the pie will get bigger versus versus we'll lose some of the pie.

(51:38):
Yeah, I think that's a really good perspective.
And I think most people in the space who've already adopted Bitcoin or have begun to would probably rather trust a Bitcoin company first than they would a financial system that they've mostly exited.
So I think you bring up really good points there.

(52:00):
So, Haley, I think we had kind of touched on this at the beginning, but before we kind of wrap it up,
wanted to touch on what excites you most about working at Fold, knowing, I mean, you've only been there for eight months,
but in that time, a ton has happened, a publicly traded company now.
Obviously, you guys are continuing to develop products and services to reach Bitcoiners and I think normies as well.

(52:24):
what's driving you these days? What excites you most about working at Fold?
There's a few things. I mean, one is definitely just what you sort of already mentioned and just
the team that we're building. So since I joined seven months ago, we've just brought on some really
top talent on the product side, on the engineering side, even on the design and marketing side that I

(52:51):
think we'll just continue to improve the whole process of being a fold user, using the products,
how you kind of make your way through the platform. And so just sort of continuing to
improve there, I think will be great. I think, I mean, obviously, everyone's excited for the

(53:12):
credit card. I'm excited about the Bitcoin gift card and an increased sort of offering of that
in physical locations. And yeah, I think that there's just only a positive momentum going for
the company. So yeah, I would say that and just, I mean, from a legal perspective, I think we're,

(53:35):
you know, getting a better grasp on just what it means to be a publicly traded company,
what it means to sort of bring additional like optionality in-house.
And so it's just the team's working great together.

(53:55):
The product ideas are flowing.
I personally am kind of an interesting attorney in the sense that I really enjoy marketing.
I think it's why I've gotten a following on Twitter.
I just I think that self-marketing, marketing of Bitcoin in general and obviously like companies marketing is very important.

(54:16):
And so to date, we haven't really spent a ton of money on proactive marketing, whereas, you know, I see Coinbase and some other companies come out with very cool like commercials and things like that.
And so I think there's also some room for us to become more just aggressive in sort of our outreach once certain products are live.

(54:42):
And so to me, that's exciting, too.
Yeah, it's great.
I do want to be respectful of your time.
I know we're coming to the top of the hour.
I wanted to give everybody on the panel just one last stab at it.
If anybody had any additional questions for Haley before we wrap up the space for the day.

(55:03):
And so go ahead, Brittany.
I saw you come up and want to make sure you had a chance.
Thank you so much for allowing me to speak.
Haley, thank you so much for doing this Q&A.
Great to hear from you.
I look forward to meeting you at the unconference next month.
I know we touched a bit on regulatory clarity.

(55:23):
I was wondering, is there any particular hurdle that Fold needs to overcome for global expansion, or can we just expect to see that in a matter of time?
There is in the sense that some of our products, like if you think of the debit card or even Bitcoin buy, sell, may have licensing requirements or just different partnerships that we would need to obtain in those other jurisdictions.

(55:48):
But, you know, I think that that's also just part of kind of figuring out our roadmap internally in terms of where where priority lies.
What is it more? Is it more U.S. centric, U.S. focused products for our current and potential user base here?
Or is it expanding our current product line to be offered internationally?

(56:12):
So, you know, those are conversations we're having as well.
But yeah, I mean, as the GC, I can say that everything we're trying to do in different ways touches on some regulations.
So that's part of the hurdle.
But it also, I think of it as also like a regulatory moat where there's some benefit to just taking on additional efforts and the additional costs it will take to just have those capabilities eventually.

(56:46):
Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Yeah, good stuff. Do you want to touch on that unconference?
Is that in New York City next month, either Brittany or Haley?
Yes, I believe it's the I forgot that it was called the unconference, but the Bitcoin Treasury Conference where Saylor will be.

(57:07):
I'll be I guess emceeing or introducing some panels.
And yeah, I think it's going to be great.
I'm pleasantly surprised because there's actually a few different conferences next month that I'm going to try to be attending, including I think there's BTCDC.

(57:28):
There's also and I think I saw that that Bitcoin veterans will be there or someone from them.
Your organization is speaking there.
So so, yeah, I'm happy to see that there's some fall conferences and that'll be great.
And anyone listening in, I hope to meet you there.
Awesome. This has been really good. And I think people really should go back and listen to this one if you join late. Lots of alpha, lots of interesting things and perspective.

(58:01):
I don't think people appreciate what it takes to launch a credit card product.
Being a former banker myself, getting a bin sponsor, all the capital that it takes.
Yeah, there's just so many pieces of it that I think make it quite the uphill battle,
especially if you're not a financial institution.
I appreciate that, and I agree.

(58:23):
But as I said, it's underway and very excited about our credit card as well.
So, yeah, thank you for having me on.
Great conversation.
And, yeah, only going up from here.
Awesome.
Captain Trips, you got something?
You came off mute?
Oh, yeah.
Haley, thank you for your time.
Great work you're doing over there.

(58:44):
And the only thing I say is I wish that the Samurai developers had you in their corner years ago
and, you know, maybe things would have been a little different late.
But, yeah, thanks for your time and a great rest of your day.
Thank you so much.
Great talking with all of you.
Thank you, Haley, for everything.
Thanks for making time.
Thank you all for hosting this.
Have a great day.
Yeah, guys, that's a wrap for this Tuesday.
I want to once again thank Haley and all the people who came up here on stage,

(59:09):
asked questions, people who gave comments, all that stuff.
Make sure you follow everybody who is up here, including Haley.
Great follow, good information.
Keep abreast of all of what's going on with Fold and Bitcoin.
But, yeah, guys, we'll do this again tomorrow, 10 a.m. Eastern.

(59:31):
And fortunately for some of you and unfortunately for others, I won't be hosting tomorrow.
I got some fill-ins.
We got Captain Trips and Texas Toast.
So excited to have them up and be patient with those guys.
They'll probably be better at the technology than I am.
I don't know.
Having problems lately, I think Elon is mad because, I don't know.

(59:53):
Who knows?
But again, we'll do this again.
And I'll be back Thursday.
we'll do Bitcoin, the Mayan Bitcoin conference.
Mayan.
Yep.
And then Friday we'll wrap up the week.
Should be fun.
And from there, if you guys need help on your Bitcoin journey,

(01:00:14):
go to bitcoinveterans.org.
Obviously, we mentioned the summit coming up.
Go to bitcoinveterans.org forward slash summit 2025.
If you're interested in that conference.
And yeah, that's it for today.
and we'll see you guys tomorrow.
Want to wish you guys a great Tuesday.
And remember, don't shit coin.

(01:00:42):
See you tomorrow, Bob.
Everybody else, 10 o'clock.