November 1, 2024 • 51 mins
How do we transform our parenting roles as our children become young adults?
Today we speak with Julie Lythcott-Hames, former Stanford University dean and bestselling author of "How to Raise an Adult" and "Your Turn." Joined by guest co-host Erica Gardner-Gray, we unravel the complexities of modern parenting, addressing societal pressures and the myth of effortless achievement.
As a parent herself, Lythcott-Haims acknowledges that parenting young adults is a continuous learning process. Despite her credentials and expertise, she humbly admits that she is still figuring things out and undoing patterns in her own journey. She encourages listeners not to interpret her words as criticism but rather as lessons learned from her own experiences.
We examine the long-term effects of over-involvement on millennials and Gen Z. From helicopter parenting to the financial and emotional implications of extended adolescence, we tackle the difficult dynamics that parents face today. Strategies are offered for navigating this terrain, highlighting the importance of finding a delicate balance between supporting and enabling, and the necessity of preparing young adults to fend for themselves in an increasingly complex world.
We discuss practical steps for supporting young adults, emphasizing the value of allowing them to learn from their challenges and lead their own lives.
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, this is our last episode rewind while
we've been taking a break, andit's a great one.
In fact, our editor, connieGorant-Fisher, when she edited
this, called me and said boof.
I really like this episode.
Julie's the author of how toRaise an Adult and your Turn.
She's also a former dean atStanford University, but she
(00:21):
really dives deep into thechallenging world of raising
children into responsible adults.
She discusses the societalpressures that implore parents
to hover, the pitfalls ofover-parenting, and so much more
.
I think you'll really like thisepisode Again.
Even if you've listened once,listen again.
So let's get started.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Listen again.
So let's get starting.
It's not you can be anythingyou want.
It's if you work really hard,you have a good chance of being
what you want.
You know it's that thecondition precedent is hard work
and get yourself back up whenyou fall.
Hard work, work, ethic plusplus resilience will get you far
.
Like we believe in you.
We believe in your dreams, butyou have to work your tail off
(01:09):
to achieve them.
I think that's what was missingfor a lot of millennials.
I hear them talking about it.
It was like they said we couldbe anything.
It turns out it's much harderthan that.
Yeah, it is much harder thanthat.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue, the
podcast.
Before we introduce today'sguest, I'm so happy to announce
I have a guest co-host with me.
Welcome to Erica Gardner-Gray.
She's been an avid listener ofthe podcast since we launched
and reached out to me with somethoughts and suggestions about
the episodes.
I love so many of her ideas.
(01:41):
So, on a whim, I asked herwould you like a turn at being
the co-host?
She was a little bit reluctant,but she agreed.
I'll let her tell you more.
Welcome, Erica.
Can you let listeners know alittle bit more about you before
we begin.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Thanks, denise, you're right, I was reluctant
and I'm still a little reluctant, but it's a thrill to be here
with you today as your co-host.
I've always been somewhat of aself-help junkie and I was so
delighted when my friend Debbietold me about Bite your Tongue.
It's perfect for my currentstage of life and I found it
(02:16):
both provocative andentertaining and enlightening.
Larry, my husband of 39 years,and I have two sons, both in
their 30s.
One of them is married and hasa five-year-old and a
four-year-old, and the other oneis still single.
So you can see how many of thetopics on this podcast are
relatable for me.
After my prior career inmedical corporate America and
more recently as owner of my owninterior design firm, this
(02:39):
opportunity is a welcome change.
But enough about me.
Would you like to introduce ourguest Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Thank you so much, eric.
I'm thrilled to have you.
You know, I didn't realize.
You've been married 39 years.
I've been married 39 years too,so we've got something in
common and also two young adultsabout the same age, although
mine's one's a girl and one's aboy, so no wonder we like each
other.
Anyway, I want the listeners toknow at the end of the episode,
eric and I are going to sharesome of our favorite podcasts
(03:06):
that we think you all might like.
But let's get started.
Today we are so pleased towelcome Julie Lithcott Hames.
What an honor this is for us.
If you look at Julie's website,it says I root for humans.
She believes in humans and isdeeply interested in what gets
in our way.
Her work encompasses writing,speaking, teaching, mentoring
(03:30):
and activism.
She is the New York Timesbestselling author of how to
Raise an Adult, which gave riseto the popular TED Talk, and
I'll link that in our episodenotes.
Today we're going to talk toher about her new book called
your Turn how to Be an Adult.
It's been called,groundbreakingly, frank.
Julie holds degrees fromStanford, harvard Law and
(03:51):
California College of the Arts.
She lives in Palo Alto,california, with her partner of
over 30 years, their itinerantyoung adults and her mother.
Welcome Julie.
Is there anything else you'dlike to share about yourself
before we get started?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Oh, my goodness, I guess just that I'm a parent of
a 24 and a 22-year-old and I'mstill figuring that out, even
though I'm a so-called expert insome ways on parenting.
I want folks to know I am in itwith you, I am undoing and
repatterning and figuring stuffout.
So everything you hear me say,don't take it as critique.
(04:26):
I'm on my journey and I'mtrying to share with you some of
the lessons I've learned thehard way.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Oh, Julie, I love that.
I think you know this wholeissue of parenting young adults
is something that's kind ofgrowing.
You know, someone said to meit's the longest relationship we
have with our children.
I mean 18, they're up and gone.
We need to nurture that so thatthe next 40, 50 years, God
willing, we have a goodrelationship with them.
So I appreciate that.
So, Erica, I'm going to start.
(04:53):
Is that okay?
Yeah, Okay.
So, Julie, you love humans, youroot for humans.
What does this mean and what doyou want our listeners to
understand about that mantra?
So we know a little bit moreabout who you are.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
No one has ever pressed me on this, so thank you
for the opportunity.
I actually, in my heart, in myspirit, I care about humans.
Many of us do.
I'm not unique in that, but Ireally mean it.
So I take an interest in thestruggles of people around me.
I'm not trying to solveeverybody's problems, but I am
trying to show up withcompassion, letting people know
(05:30):
that I believe in them, lettingthem know I respect them, trying
to treat them with dignity,trying to be of some use if I
can.
I'm one of those people thatdoesn't see this human journey
as a race that some of us win.
I actually think we don't winunless we all get there.
So I'm trying to do my part.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
That's terrific.
It really drew my attentionwhen I was reading about you and
I thought maybe all of us needto be a little bit more like
that nowadays.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
You've written many books, but the two we're going
to talk about today are titledhow to Raise an Adult and your
Church.
One is a message to parentsabout how to raise a responsible
adult, and the other is amessage to all of us who grow up
to be an adult.
Tell us how you came to writeboth of these and what they mean
to you, both as a parent and asan adult, maruth.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
These two books are really the flip side of the same
coin.
When I was a dean at StanfordUniversity, I had the privilege
of working with 18 to22-year-olds to be someone who
rooted for them, tried to shinea light on their path and help
them figure themselves out.
In that work I saw that manywere still quite handheld by
(06:41):
parents, as if they were 5 or 11instead of 18 or 22.
And I could see the damage itseemed to have on their sense of
agency, their skills and theirmental health.
So I decided to write thatparenting book how to Raise an
Adult really based on what I'dseen, as well as interviews with
a whole lot of other peopleabout what they were seeing
around the country, not only atcolleges and universities but in
(07:02):
the workplace, k-12.
So that parenting manual existsand is my first book, but it was
based on me really trying toadvocate for young adults to be
able to thrive in this one lifeof theirs.
So your Turn, which is the morerecent book, is the flip side.
It's the book for kids, rootingfor them to thrive.
It doesn't have parentingadvice in it.
(07:23):
It has advice for young peopleon the choices, how to make the
choices and how to cope withstuff and what to prioritize and
so on, but both books emanatefrom the same center point,
which is me rooting for youngpeople.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
So you know I'm sorry , go ahead, erica Do you think
that parents are more involvedwith their kids at the request
of their kids, or do you thinkthat the parents have their own
needs to be more involved withtheir children?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, I think there's a third piece missing, which is
is society pressuring parentsto be more involved?
This is such a commonplacemanner of parenting.
It's not new any longer.
There was a time when it wasnew and odd, but really
millennials and now Gen Z havebeen raised with this over
parenting approach so it hasbecome the norm in many
communities, which makes it hardto stand up to or even for
(08:12):
parents to realize that it maybe too much.
It just seems to be the wayeveryone's doing it, so why
would they not?
I think some kids are asking formore involvement, but kids
don't know what childhood issupposed to be right If they
look around and see well,everyone else's parents are, you
know, at every soccer practice,or everyone else's parents are
(08:33):
kind of helping with thehomework, doing the homework.
You know, why aren't youhelping me?
Like I can't figure this outand you do my homework?
Well, it's on the parent to sayactually, this homework is
yours.
It's a compact between you andthe teacher.
I can answer a question here orthere, I can give you feedback,
(08:53):
I can try to give you advice,but I'm not going to do your
homework, no matter how manyother parents are sort of
lightening the load by finishingit for you.
That's wrong.
It won't help you grow to be abetter student or a better
grown-up one day.
So it's not on kids to knowthat that parental involvement
is too much.
It's on us as parents to really, I think, summon a memory from
the 80s or the 70s or the 60s orthe 50s, when we were being
(09:15):
raised and say like wait aminute, my parents weren't doing
my homework.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
What am I doing?
My parents didn't even know Iwent to take the SAT.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
And now they're taking 15 classes before they
take the SAT.
This also goes to what you talkabout.
Sometimes a kid is the petproject of the parent and
they're raising them to be X, yor Z.
And you also talk about thiswhole issue of perfectionism and
parents seeking perfectionism,and that puts a lot of pressure
on the kid.
How does a parent that maybewas involved?
(09:44):
So here we're talking toparents of adult kids they could
be anywhere from 18 to 35,because honestly I'll get to
that later how long adolescenceis taking these days?
Right, what do we say toparents of adult kids that can't
let go and still see theirchild as their pet project or
this yearning for perfectionism?
(10:04):
What are the steps they cantake?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Well, I'm going to answer this question with what I
should have said also inresponse to the last question,
which is one of the reasons wedo this, and I say we because I
have done it.
We over-parent our adultchildren out of our own ego's
need to be useful, to matter, orout of deep anxieties that we
(10:26):
have about ourselves.
So we've got to treat that kidlike the project or the dog in
the dog race or the thoroughbredgoing in the Kentucky Derby,
like I will feel better aboutmyself when I can say to my
peers my child has achieved this, is a graduate of, that is in
this career right, our need.
(10:47):
Something is unwell orincomplete or not enough within
ourselves, such that our childbecomes the evidence of our
worth, which is incrediblyunhealthy.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
For ourselves and the kid.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
So I'm here to say we canchange.
I, my partner Dan, and I havebeen hard at work doing what I
call repatterning with our 24year old, our eldest, with whom
we were way overprotective.
I tried to make life easierbecause he was really a
wonderful kid but also verysensitive.
We just tried to smooth thepath, take the tough things away
(11:22):
.
Well, he became a young adultwho can't handle the tough
things and we realized no, theloving thing is to empathize
with whatever the struggle isand then empower by evincing
confidence that one day it won'tbe this hard.
So now the family mantra is youknow what?
This looks hard, but you dohard things.
Smile, walk away.
And my little heart is poundingas I walk away because I want
(11:45):
to, you know, make it easier forthat kid.
But the more I practice it, themore confident I get and the
more I see him light up with ohmy mother believes in me instead
of oh my mother doesn't believein me.
Thank goodness she's there todo it for me.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I think finding that middle ground is really really
hard for a lot of us.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, we just interviewed Lauren Steinberg who
wrote this new book.
I'm sure you've heard of youand your Adult Child how to Grow
Together in Challenging Timesand he really talks about how
adolescence is lasting until 26,27, 28.
And he says it's parents.
He says similarly to what yousay about parents being
over-involved, going to all thesoccer games, blah, blah, blah.
(12:23):
But also he brought up a lot ofvery empathetic for the world
these kids are growing up intoday, meaning that one of the
things he said was real estate'sgrowing four times more than
salaries.
It's very hard to get afoothold, so how long do you
support?
How much do you support?
What's that happy medium?
Like Erica said that we have tomeet.
(12:44):
How do we get there?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I mean Steinberg is raising a really good point
about the widening incomeinequities that salary and wages
haven't kept up with the costof living, and it's certainly
true where I live here in theSan Francisco Bay Area.
And yet if we hold our kids'hands forever and then one day
we're dead and gone or infirm,then they're really going to be
(13:07):
lost because they've been taughtthat I'm okay when my parents
are holding my hand.
Well, that's not a promise wecan keep forever.
So I would advise every parentkeep your eye on the long-term
purpose of parenting, which israise that offspring to be able
to fend for themselves withoutyou.
We hope to not be taken fromthem too early, but along the
way we're supposed to betransferring our knowledge to
(13:28):
them and teaching them andletting them have the life
experiences that teach them.
So the line is I have thisfour-step method for teaching
any kid any skill.
First you do it for them andwe're really good at that and
you do it with them, likethey're there but you're doing,
you're doing the work, butyou're supposed to be kind of
teaching the work, narrating outloud.
Now we do this.
(13:48):
Now we're going to do this.
Now we're going to do this.
Step three you watch them do it.
They're in the driver's seat,you're.
You're in the passenger seat,you can grab the wheel in an
emergency.
Step four they can do it.
You're out of the car andyou've confidence.
You both have confidence thatthey've practiced through steps
two and three enough they knowhow to do it.
(14:08):
So, in other words, you don'tleave them, you know.
You don't drop them cold turkey.
You don't do everything for aperson and then abandon them.
Right, you teach them.
You have a goal of I want mykid to be capable of doing this.
So when it comes to rent, youdecide like is my kid a hard
worker?
Do they have a job?
Right, put those expectationsin place.
And if that job doesn't earnenough wage or salary to comport
(14:32):
to what basic minimum rent isin your town, then you may have
to figure out all right, are wegoing to subsidize in some way
that recognizes you're a hardworker, but rents are out of
control?
Maybe you can afford to do that,maybe you can't.
Maybe it's that toughconversation where you say I'm
so sad our area has becomeunaffordable for young people.
Thankfully, there are manyother places in this country
(14:55):
where it's not out of balance.
We might see Gen Z moving tothe heartland, where there are
cities with great jobs andreasonable cost of living.
I mean, maybe that's howregions get repopulated, because
young people can't afford tolive here in the Bay Area or on
the coasts anymore.
I don't know.
But there are solutionsavailable and they all entail
(15:16):
ultimately empowering the youngadult to get farther out there
in life, do more and more forthemselves, rather than bring
them home into their childhoodbedroom, pat them on the head
and say don't worry, it'llalways be okay, because it won't
will be gone, and then theywill be lost.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
How important do you think it is to put timeframes
for helping them?
Yeah, for example, when youwere saying, help the kids with
the rent, if it's too much, doyou say I'll help you for some
finite amount of time, and thenthere's an expectation that they
figure it out right forward.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
I think these are conversations that have to be
had.
So, yes, and every kid isdifferent.
Some kids have mental healthchallenges and they're not going
to be as equipped to kind ofsupport themselves as soon as
others might.
They might be in a field thatdoesn't pay very well.
My kid, for example, is an aidefor kids with special needs in
the public schools.
(16:08):
Well, I love that.
I think it's God's work andangels work, but sure doesn't
pay, for he's represented by aunion.
But that salary isn't going tocover a studio apartment
anywhere near where we live.
So do I want to tell him hecan't do that for a living?
Do I want to tell him he shoulddo it in a different part of
the country?
Or do I want to partiallysubsidize his situation?
(16:31):
And that's the route my partnerand I have taken partially
subsidizing.
But we won't do it forever.
We haven't yet figured out forhow long, but that hard
conversation is coming.
He's 24 now.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
But don't you think?
I mean for me, as long asthey're working and working hard
, no one's going to do that job,because no one can afford to
live on that, and we need goodpeople in those jobs.
And that's the same thing withteaching.
Yeah, jessica Gross at the NewYork Times just wrote a call on
the.
No one wants to be a teacher,and yet it's the teachers that
are shaping the future Right,and so it's really hard.
(17:05):
But I want to say one morething.
You talk about moving to theheartland, and I get that, but
the political climate of ourcountry right now is becoming
really difficult.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah.
So I would say a couple ofthings.
not to presume everyone on thelistening, I know I know the
same politics, but I certainlyget and agree with you If a
person is from a blue statelooking to move to a more
affordable red state, so tospeak.
Typically the urban environmentwherever you go is quite
liberal and progressive.
So even if the entire statetends to swing red, the cities
(17:39):
tend to be blue.
That's true almost everywhere.
So be heartened by that andwhen I say the heartland I'm
also talking about places inOhio and places in Wisconsin and
places in Illinois that there'splenty of progressive people
there.
So I would Google if I'm ayoung person listening right now
or a parent of 22 to 35,.
(17:59):
I would Google best cities foryoung adults.
They're gonna tell you aboutcost of living, cost to rent or
buy a place, quality of life,nightlife, social activities and
so on.
Right, those places exist.
In fact, some of them havegrants like we'll pay you to
come to our city.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Well, I think this abortion issue is a big one.
I've heard a lot of youngpeople say I'm not moving to a
state that will not allow awoman the right to choose.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Everybody has to make choices.
You're looking at a Blackperson, black and biracial.
I also identify as queer.
I very much believe we have tofind our people.
We have to find our communities, both in work and in
relationship, where we can beour true selves without
persecution, prosecution or,just you know, massive
difficulties.
So let's get really outside thebox.
(18:47):
It may be that our adultchildren don't want to leave
Silicon Valley or New York orthese other expensive places.
Fine, they're going to livewith us.
What are the parameters?
How could they live with us andbehave as adults, instead of us
feeling like we still have ourteenager, who's now 35, at home?
It's about agreements.
It's about boundaries,respecting that they ought to be
(19:09):
able to come and go as theyplease, just like we do, but
also respecting that they willcontribute to the family
household far more than thechores they did as a child.
They should now be doing someof the grocery shopping and they
should be looking out forgrandma and they should be
thinking about, like augment,whatever they were responsible
for as a kid ratcheted up.
(19:30):
It comes with moreresponsibility, but also more
freedom.
You know, it is possible tolive, to coexist as adults in
the same house, as long aseverybody is treated as and
assumes the responsibility of anadult.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
There's something really beautiful about
multi-generational living andmany countries do it.
The problem is it goes back tothe thing we said at the
beginning your ego gets in theway.
Johnny's living at home.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Right.
So what we have to say is it'sreally unaffordable here.
So Johnny's living at home, butwe're really proud of him.
We give him his space, hecontributes beautifully.
So of him, we give him hisspace, he contributes
beautifully.
So you know, he's an adult, weall just still happen to live
together, right?
And then Johnny's got torespect your adult life.
I mean, I, I've got a Johnny,I've got a 24 year old.
For us he's the aide for kidswith special needs.
(20:15):
We charge him rent that is onethird of his gross income,
because that's what the formulais.
But we're saving that money forhim so that when he's ready to
go get an apartment, he's gotsome saved for a security
deposit and first and lastmonth's rent, right, it's all in
furtherance of that one day.
But we also had to say to himyou know, could you and your
(20:36):
friends maybe play D&D atsomeone else's house, because we
kind of need some alone time?
And he was like, oh really, Imean, we were, we lost our empty
nest.
We missed that and it'simportant to be able to have
this conversation instead of.
Well, I guess our life isdeferred until our son gets his
situation worked out Like no,everybody matters, be able to
(20:56):
speak as frankly as you can.
Agreements, boundaries,commitments, gratitude.
Thanks so much, son, for takingcare of the dishes when it was
my turn.
I really appreciate you, justlike you would say to any adult.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
That leads you to that good question, erica, that
we talked about, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
In your book you quote Madeline Levine's message
that we should support our kidsin being who they are by giving
them the opportunity to fit thekid, as opposed to trying to
make our kid fit our notion ofwho they should be.
With many adults today, thattrial and error of our kids
seems to be going on a long time.
(21:33):
How long do we support it andwhen do we have, or do we have,
some responsibility to point outthe obvious financial
ramifications of continuing totry things hard?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, it's case by case.
Foundationally, fundamentally,I mean, humans want to be
successful.
They want to create things.
They want to do things withtheir hands or their body or
their brains.
We feel great satisfaction fromwork if it's work that we're
good at and we love.
So we want to be pushing ourkids.
We want to set that expectationthat it is not a thing for you
(22:09):
to want to live here forever.
It is not a thing for you tojust like we make dinner for you
night after night and you siton the couch like you know you
you've got to get out there, anda kid who doesn't want to get
out there might be dealing withsome depression or some anxiety.
Get that treated, get thatworked on depression or some
anxiety.
Get that treated, get that workdone, because they ought to be
yearning.
They ought to be yearning forindependence and freedom and
(22:33):
responsibility and all that.
They ought to be yearning tolive with peers instead of with
us.
So we've got to signal thatthose things matter and are
important.
We've got to say like in a yearI don't think you'll still be
living here, you know, certainlynot in two years, right?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
I one time heard someone say and this was when my
kids were like in high school,maybe going to college you want
a loving environment at home,but not too comfortable, right,
you know meaning.
They can't go out to a bar andbring home a guy or a girl to
spend the night.
And you're open to that becausesometimes the main reason they
want to leave is to have sex,because sometimes the main
reason they want to leave is tohave sex.
I know that sounds terrible tosay, but they don't want their
(23:08):
mom and dad or mom or whoever itis their guardians knowing what
they're doing all the time.
So if you allow too much andmake it too comfortable, it
might be even harder for them toleave.
I don't know.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Well, that's a really good point and I think modern
parenting is there's an upside,there's a downside to the
closeness too much handholding,too much hovering.
But the upside is we know them,they know us, we really like
each other.
We're more likely to know thenames of their friends, their
teachers and so on.
So then it's harder to say likeyou can't be who you are in
this home.
I don't care if you're in arelationship, not in my house.
We're just we.
(23:41):
We aren't the my way or thehighway.
Children are to be seen, butnot her generation.
You know we're much morepermissive.
So you're absolutely right, wecan't make homes so cushy that
they would never want to leave.
They're supposed to want toleave and get their own life
because they're sick and tiredof living under our house and
our rules.
You know that's a real heavylift for this generation of
(24:01):
parents.
I respect the challenge of it,but I also really appreciate the
wisdom of it.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I liked your term self-efficacy.
I call it the little engine.
That could Maybe the mostimportant book we ever read our
kids, and we have done a greatjob maybe too great a job
teaching them that they can doanything they want to do, and
now that they're adults, they'relearning they have limitations.
So what's the in-betweenmessage that parents of adult
(24:30):
children should be talking aboutwith them?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, it's not.
You can be anything you want.
If you work really hard, youhave a good chance of being what
you want.
You know it's that.
The condition precedent is hardwork and get yourself back up
when you fall.
Hard work, work ethic plusresilience will get you far.
Like we believe in you.
We believe in your dreams, butyou have to work your tail off
(24:55):
to achieve them.
I think that's what was missingfor a lot of millennials.
I hear them talking about it.
It was like they said we couldbe anything.
It turns out it's much harderthan that.
Yeah, it is much harder thanthat.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
You have such an amazing background in all your
studies and I just wonderhistorically we went from the
way we were raised.
You know they rang the dinnerbell to come home.
They didn't know where we were.
And I know the world haschanged.
Ok, but I want to go into whyyou think our generation of
(25:28):
parents have ended up in thisstate.
Does that make sense?
Sure, sort of having kids thataren't ready to launch, or even
25 percent of adult kids areestranged from their parents.
You know what is this about.
What is it historically andjust in our world that has
caused this kind of change?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
So that statistic on 25% are estranged is new to me
so I haven't read about it, Ihaven't studied it.
My hypothesis there is whensomebody has been micromanaged,
they at some point say to heckwith this, I'm out of here, you
do not have the right to know mywhereabouts, you do not have
the right to know about everyminute detail of my life.
(26:04):
It is too much.
It feels like surveillance, itfeels like an encroachment into
privacy and anybody raised thatway at some point.
I'm rooting for them to leaveand say stop, and if you can't
stop, I'm out of here.
And so I'm guessing that thereis some element of that 25% that
has had it.
I am not your dog on a leashand if you don't realize that,
(26:27):
then I'm going off leash.
I hope they're still open totheir parents learning and
growing and being willing tokind of forge that healthy
relationship one day.
But who knows?
Look here's how it startedOverparenting, or what we call
helicopter parenting,micromanaging parenting actually
began in the 80s.
The term was coined by 1990based on what had changed in the
(26:47):
80s, and it was these things westarted bubble wrapping their
entire lives in the 80s littleguards and protectors on
everything.
Prepare the road for the child,instead of preparing the child
for the road.
It was like we are so worriedwe're always going to have a
helmet on you or have a bubblewrap on the edge of the sharp
thing or the road.
It was like we are so worriedwe're always going to have a
helmet on you or have a bubblewrap on the edge of the sharp
(27:08):
thing or the corner.
So we got very overly concernedabout safety Instead of letting
the physical environment teachthe kids how to use their bodies
.
It was like no, no, no, let'sjust bubble wrap everything.
We became very sort of show upat not just games but practices
for soccer and you know, you'reamazing and you're great and oh,
(27:29):
congrats.
You swung a bat.
Like we became these overpraising people and made you
know kids like my parents alwayshere, my parent thinks I'm
great and my parents alwaysgoing to handle everything.
We created the play dateinstead of kids going out and
finding kids to play with.
It was that's not safe, don'tdo that.
I think it was, frankly, acommentary on women in the
workplace in the 70s.
Like no, no, no.
Now we have to have every hourafter school arranged by parents
(27:52):
, structured by parents or somethird party Stranger.
Danger was born.
Don't talk to strangers, younever know what can happen.
So we've got this overbroad rulethat has led to rudeness in
kids.
Like they won't you say hi on asidewalk, they look at you like
you're a creep.
Well, they're not learning howto interact in their environment
and they're learning to beafraid of their environment.
So all of this, these kids, whohad the first play date in 1984
(28:13):
, were the first kids to come tocollege in the late 90s with
parents who could not let go,still wanted to be involved in
interpersonal, still wanted totalk to authorities on their
behalf, still wanted to holdtheir hand and handle the
problem solving and all of that.
So we do it because now it'sthe norm, but we also do it
(28:34):
because of this ego need to feeluseful and validated.
It's sort of become thehallmark of modern parenting is
look what I achieved for my kidtoday, instead of this pride and
like I'm teaching my kid to dofor themselves today.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I understand what you're saying about that.
That makes a lot of sense to me, and certainly the flip side of
it, though I'm wondering, asyou're talking, is the sense of
responsibility to not shirk ourduties.
On one hand, yes, you can sayit, so their parents have their
ego gratification, but sometimesfor me, if I don't say
(29:09):
something or I don't dosomething, I feel like I am
letting them go too much andshirking my responsibility and
being a bad parent.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
So it's so hard to to say that kids who are raised by
working class families oftenhave to do more chores around
the house look after youngchildren, maybe have a part-time
job, start dinner.
They have to do more workbecause their parents' job
situation is nuts and theyemerge to young adulthood far
more self-reliant, far moreaccountable and responsible than
their more affluentcounterparts who don't seem to
(29:46):
know how to do anything becausethey've never been asked to do
anything.
You know, yes, there is, atsome point, neglect, like you
were never there for your kid.
You don't know where they are,you didn't show up, you didn't
care, right, we don't want to beat that end of the spectrum,
nor do we want to be acting likethis is my pet dog and I'm
going to carry them with me atall times.
You know to be able to say toyour kid if you're busy, like
(30:06):
pick the activity that's reallyimportant to you and I will be
there, Can't be there, all youknow and every single one.
I work full time, I've gotother kids, I've got other
things right.
You share, you show with yourbody language and with your
actual language that you care,you praise them for the things
they're doing.
Well no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
You know, I used to hear the phrase benign neglect
and sometimes some of the bestkids raised with benign neglect.
They felt loved.
It just wasn't overpowering.
I used to say my kids are oldernow but I wish I would have
raised my kids the way I raisedmy dog.
Go to your crate, you know.
Instead, I was always worriedabout how I was treating them
emotionally and was like and Ihurt their self-esteem.
And what I really want to askis this isn't changing.
(31:12):
Julie, you've written thesebooks.
People are talking about itleft and right, but every time I
bring this up or talk about itto even young friends and
teachers don't come into theschools.
Now it's worse than it's everbeen.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I think COVID has certainly wreaked havoc on
everything, of course, and I'mhearing from teachers that kids
seem younger than ever.
A there seems to be a lesseningor a lesser maturity attached
to the ages where we'd think youshould be mature by now, but
that's been in progress forquite some time.
I think.
You know, nobody would say toan 18-year-old today well, you
know, up or out, you're 18.
(32:13):
Like, we're still calling themchildren when they're 35, right,
but in my generation I'm Gen X,born in 1967.
A lot of us were told you canlive here until you're 18, but
that's it.
We went to the military, wewent to college or we went to
the workplace.
I'm waiting for someone to sayno one in their right mind
(32:36):
should be allowed to join themilitary at 18 because they're
still children.
Some people believe that and tolook at Steinberg's work on
adolescents, are they really oldenough to make that decision?
Has that much changed in themin terms of their cognitive and
psychosocial, emotionaldevelopment?
I don't know, but I do think,bigger picture, we have to be
interested in our youth learningthe skills, the practical
skills, the skills around humaninteraction, how to solve their
(32:57):
problems, how to cope whenthings go wrong how to get back
up.
I mean, what's to become of usif the next generation can't do
those things?
Speaker 1 (33:05):
You're right.
You're absolutely right,absolutely right.
There was something you talkedabout how can parents and
mentors sort of support thistransition from adolescence to
adulthood without enabling orimposing expectations?
What steps can parents take tohelp the kid?
I mean, they may have alreadydone everything you've said.
They've been to every soccergame, they wrote the college
(33:27):
admission thing and the kid gotinto a great college.
Now the kid can't find a job,doesn't really know how to go
about finding a job.
How can the parent take stepsto correct some of those
mistakes they made earlier on?
Speaker 2 (33:40):
So sometimes the parent isn't the right person
anymore because our relationshipis so intertwined.
A lot of people with you know,who are middle class or above,
who have some extra money, willhire that executive function
coach.
If your kid can't seem to put aresume together or figure out
how to use the internet to findjobs that are available, get
(34:00):
that third party signed up.
Hired to work with your kid Xnumber of hours a week.
It sets an expectation thatthis is important.
We're not the best teachers ofit.
We're hiring somebody to workwith you.
Your obligation is countable tothem.
Point being, there are skillsto be taught and it's high time
our kid learned.
If a kid isn't motivated to geta job again, maybe they're
(34:21):
depressed, maybe something'sgoing on.
It's a sign.
If a body isn't in motion, ifit's stagnant, something's up.
We've got to be on the lookoutfor that.
So some combination of goodtherapy and good coaching might
be the path forward that makessense.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
I love that idea of bringing an expert into the
equation, even if we ourselveshave the ability to be handling
that role, because that's adistancing in and of itself.
That can be helpful for theadult kids to know that they
have other resources because,god forbid, something happens to
us.
They need to know theiralternatives Right.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
That's absolutely true.
I also think it doesn't evenhave to be paid help.
I sometimes use a friend, aneighbor, a relative.
Hey, could you talk to my kidabout this?
I'm concerned about it.
They may be more open with youthan they would be with me.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
And I think it's also okay to evince a future that
you want to see come about.
So you might say I know it'shard now, but I also know that
within a couple of years you'regoing to have a job Articulate
the future you're trying to.
A couple of years feels like along time.
Six months, three months.
You're going to have a job,articulate the future you want.
It tells your kid you believethey can get there.
(35:33):
And that's one of the thingsthat's missing from this
micromanaging parenting.
All of our overhelp sends thisinsidious message I don't
believe you can do this.
Therefore, don't worry, I'vegot it.
We're trying to be helpful, butit totally undermines.
So one of the best ways willhelp a young adult problem solve
, whether they're in your faceor they're texting you, is to
(35:57):
express compassion oh, I'm sosorry.
That sounds so hard, are youokay?
I love you.
And then smile and say let meknow how you handled it and walk
away or put the phone down.
I'm not talking about anemergency, that I'm bleeding on
the street.
I'm just talking about a run ofthe mill.
Didn't do this, forgot aboutthat.
Got to figure this out.
(36:17):
My son is a teacher's aide.
As I said, he's a member of hisunion trying to advocate for
higher wages and they had aconference and he was invited to
be a rep for his union.
He blew the deadline to sign upfor a hotel in the hotel block
and he was stressed out of hismind and in the past I would
have been stressed, I would havebeen there handling it for him,
but I said I knew better.
(36:38):
So I said you know what.
This is hard, but you do hardthings.
I'm happy to sit here at thetable and do my work while you
do this, just for moral support.
But you've got this.
He, in his very stressed out way, found the email, found the
information, called a hotel inNevada, spoke with a clerk
because all the rooms online hecould tell the block of rooms
(36:58):
reserved was already full.
It was too late.
So then he had to go to a planB.
Boy, I could feel the stressslaking off of him and I was
really proud of myself forstaying regulated.
I wasn't trying to help, but Ialso wasn't mean or like I told
you.
So I didn't do that.
I just was present and with mykind, silent presence he felt
rooted for.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
You don't seem like the silent type to me.
Sorry, judah, I'm not thesilent type either, so I know
how hard it is to bite yourtongue.
You want to jump in and talk tothe clerk.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Hi, thank you so much .
He's my right.
Nothing else I knew.
This moment was training himfor the next one, and why was I
going to deprive him of theopportunity to train and grow
stronger?
Speaker 3 (37:41):
I love that kind silent present.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
I just rub it down so that I can tape it up on my
mirror or something I'm going topractice that Also write down,
smile and walk away, becauseit's our own need to be involved
and solve it, because, ofcourse, we're older, we're
educated, we've had lifeexperience, we have connections,
network.
We can solve it, like the timethis plane got canceled.
They canceled his plane cominghome from college and I was like
(38:06):
, oh my gosh, and then I wasabout to give a talk, or in the
middle of giving a talk, on thisbook I couldn't.
So I had to trust that my kidcould handle it.
And you know what?
He figured it out.
He figured out how to getrebooked and he got a travel
voucher for the inconvenience.
And I would have deprived himof learning those lessons if I
had swooped in and solved it.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
And I would say, the thing I struggle with the most
is I can say you can do ityourself, smile and walk away,
but I have to hold myself backfrom nagging.
Did you do it?
Did you do it?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I really that's my hardest part, okay.
So let me tell you, I wasgiving a talk somewhere three
months ago and packed auditorium, mostly adults.
I give them how to raise anadult, parenting talk.
I take questions and this momis sitting about 20 rows back
and she says well, in our housewe have this situation where my
son really needs to finish someapplications.
And then she goes like this shelooks all the way down the row,
like three people down the row,turns out her son is sitting.
(39:05):
He won't start.
I keep nagging him, I keeptelling him, I keep reminding
him because they have to getdone.
Do you have any advice for me?
And I said is that your son?
And she said yes.
And I said are you collectivelywilling for me to have this
conversation with you in frontof all these people?
And the son was like this andthe mom said yes.
I said all right, mom, this isyour son's application.
(39:26):
Whether he does it or not is upto him.
It's a reflection of him.
If he wants to do this, he will.
If he doesn't want to, he won't.
You can say to him hey, kid,don't forget this deadline.
If you need me I'll help, butthis is yours.
You've got it right.
Say that once.
Let him know that you are thereto provide help.
He knows that.
(39:46):
You do not need to say it again, let alone 10 times.
The more you nag, the more itmakes him feel.
My mother doesn't think I knowhow to manage my life or that I
care about my life.
Okay, so back off and trustthat it'll either get done or it
won't.
But it's his life.
And then I said to the son,how'd I do?
I think he gave me a thumbs up.
(40:06):
You know it's hard because wedon't want him to fail to apply
to college or fail to apply forthat job.
But the more we nag and do it,the more we're saying I have to
handle your life for you becauseyou're incapable.
Sometimes they need theconsequences of well, you didn't
apply.
And then you don't rib them,you don't say if only you'd
listened to me, you would haveRight.
(40:26):
You just it's not your life.
That's the thing you have toget out of like.
I need this outcome, I need himto apply, I need him to pass
this.
Why Right, you have your life,he has his.
You can say hey, you got tograduate from high school.
When you graduate from highschool, I expect you to go to
college or the workplace.
Those are my rules.
But how you get there is up toyou, because it's your life, not
(40:47):
mine.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Takes a lot of strength, a lot of strength, but
I get it.
You talk about the importanceof practicing gratitude, but
we're in a culture that'sconstantly telling us to seek
more Lord knows.
Social media is just everyonewants to be the perfect
everything.
How can we balance appreciationfor what we have without
falling into the trap ofcomplacency?
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Well, I don't see a lot of complacency around me.
I'm in Palo Alto.
It's a highly stressed out,hardworking place and it has its
downsides, but complacencyisn't one of them.
I'm not sure that a gratitudepractice leads to complacency.
Gratitude, I think, helps youappreciate what you have so that
(41:29):
you realize it's not all badright.
You appreciate what you have sothat you realize it's not all
bad right.
Gratitude is a great thing topractice.
When you're feeling really sad,scared, angry, things have gone
wrong, it's great to pause andsay you know what?
Let me just rebalance by sayinghere's what I can be grateful
for, and small, the more minute,the more specific, the better.
Not my health, my life, butlike I had a great breakfast
(41:53):
today because my partner went tothe store and there were things
for me to cook.
You know I'm here in clothesthat I, that I like they're
ironed, like they're clean.
I'm grateful that my mother isa gardener and sharing this
beautiful garden.
I'm grateful, you know, you'rereally specific.
I think gratitude helps us copeand then the stuff that we're
afraid of or worried aboutdoesn't seem quite as
insurmountable.
So I don't think complacency isthe opposite of gratitude.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
In your book how to Raise an Adult, you outline four
types of parentingauthoritative, permissive,
indulgent, neglectful,authoritarian right.
How does that change as aparent to a young adult?
Speaker 2 (42:25):
It doesn't.
Nobody wants to be neglectful,so take that off the table.
Nobody should be anauthoritarian.
That's the my way or thehighway, my house, my rules.
It's rule-based, with no hairand concern or compassion.
Nobody should be doing that.
Indulgent, permissive is likethe best friend, like I'll
handle everything, it's all good, you know no rules and just
(42:46):
total, feel total, like touchy,feely, whatever you want, kid.
The sweet spot we're supposedto be aiming for and should
stick with is rules andexpectations, but also high
degree of care and concern.
That's authoritative, okay.
We should have rules andexpectations, how you teach them
, how life work.
Pick up your clothes, do thesedishes contribute, pitch in,
(43:09):
come home at a certain timeright Consequences if they don't
do those things, but a highdegree of emotional relating.
How are you Good to see you?
I love you.
You know how's that guitaryou're always playing.
I know I'm always nagging youon your science test, but you
know what it's yours to figureout.
I want you to do what you lovethat guitar you play.
(43:32):
It brings me joy when I hear it, the music wafting through the
house, and I want you to knowthat.
I hope you have enough time toplay that guitar because you're
pretty good at it.
Right, it's showing up andseeing them, treating them with
unconditional love.
Not love when they get A's, butlove because they breathe.
That's the authoritativeparenting style.
Never ends.
Love it, I love it.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Don't you love that, erica?
Style never ends.
Love it, I love it.
Don't you love that, erica?
Hey, darren, I'm thinking that,though we're talking some about
kids who grade, that even inadulthood, it's the same
approach the emotional support,the recognizing the achievements
, the successes and noticingthem, I think is really
important.
I mean, I guess you asked whichyou know when does it segue?
Speaker 2 (44:08):
And I said it never does.
I think I'm wrong about that.
I will amend that.
And you asked which you know?
When does it segue?
And I said it never does.
I think I'm wrong about that.
I will amend that and say, look, you should only ever be an
authoritative parent none of theother three types.
But once they become fullfledged adults, you're more of a
loving coach who's on thesidelines to applaud the
director, who sits in theaudience and watches as their
(44:30):
life unfolds.
A director doesn't get up inthe middle of a play or a
musical and tell them they didit wrong, you know, or fix it
when it went wrong.
They just say, look, let's letit play out.
Like, be there and watch, enjoy, show up with love.
Every time you step back, itmakes room for your kid to step
forward.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
I heard it said that we're supposed to be consultant
in adulthood?
Yeah, and a lot of ourlisteners are parents of adult
kids.
And what is, what is aconsultant?
Do rates to be asked?
Nice.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Yeah, let me.
Let me tell you this With mydaughter.
I'm a fixer.
She's 22.
I'm the sort of parent when shecalled during the pandemic
living off campus Mom, I've gota paper due, I don't have my
internet hooked up, my printerdoesn't work and I can't reach
my landlord.
I got to register my scooter inthe state I now live in and I
was like, oh my gosh, avery,don't register the scooter.
She's like mom, I'm notactually asking, I just want you
(45:24):
to, I just want to place anevent and I'm thinking like, how
could you not ask Other people,ask me for advice?
I wrote books Like I've been anauthority in so many ways and
what I've learned now is when mykid vents to say compassionate
things, that sounds hard.
I'm so sorry you're dealingwith that, are you OK?
I love you Do?
(45:47):
you ever say is there anything Ican do?
Do you need any?
Never, pause is essential.
And then, with a smile in mytone of voice, I say maybe do
you just want to vent or do youneed ideas.
I'm here for whatever it is youneed.
In the olden days I would say doyou want to vent or do you want
ideas?
People like advocating for theideas, like, do you want ideas?
And I've learned that my toneof voice I have to regulate
(46:08):
myself, which is why the pauseafter the compassion, and maybe
even pause so long that she sayssomething else.
And then, when it's my turnnext, I'll say you know what?
I have some thoughts, happy toshare them.
If you want, you let me know.
Like I am dying to share mythoughts, of course.
But here's what's happened overthe couple of years I've been
practicing this.
Now, when I it used to be,she's like nope, I'm good, mom,
(46:30):
thanks Right.
She did not want my ideas,probably because I've stuffed my
ideas down her throat all herlife.
Now, when I say, do you want tojust vent or do you want some
ideas, she's like oh, mom, Iwant all your ideas.
This is my example of I havebacked myself sufficiently away
such that my daughter does notfeel like I'm trying to lead her
life or that I don't trust thatshe can.
(46:51):
So now she can come forward.
In pulling a little bit back, Ihave drawn my daughter closer
and I have hit this sweet spotwith this kid finally that I
wouldn't trade for anything.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Lucky, lucky, I shouldn't say lucky you.
You've worked hard at it.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
We've worked at it and she's been great.
That's exactly right.
I've tried to learn and grow,for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
And I think we're all learning and grow.
That's what this whole podcastis about.
But before we wrap up, julie,at the end of every episode we
always ask our guests to leaveour listeners with one or two
pieces of advice that we wantthem to take away.
It can be something you've saidbefore when they press done on
the podcast what do you wantthem to really hear from you?
Speaker 2 (47:37):
I want you to hear that I'm rooting for you, that
we are all a work in progressand, as much as I am an expert,
I have to work on some of myparenting stuff almost every day
and I believe in you.
You can do the work.
Figure out why you're soanxious about your kid's
outcomes.
Figure out why you're soworried about other kid's
outcomes.
Figure out why you're soworried about other people's
judgment.
Your kid wants you to do thework, the therapy, the working
your stuff out, so that theyhave a healthy parent who's got
(48:01):
their act together and can bethat wonderful consultant or
coach in their lives.
So it takes work, but you'recapable of the work and I know
it because I'm doing the worktoo.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Thank you so much, Erica.
Do you have anything else toadd at the end?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
here.
I guess my take home from a lotof what I read in your books
and what I've heard you say isthat over-helping causes harm.
It leaves the kids without theskills and the strengths to take
care of themselves, and I thinkthat's a good lesson for all of
us.
Erica.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I appreciate that I like to say overhelping,
undermines.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
You know, I think that helps people, overhelp,
undermines.
I love all your little wordsand terminologies, all of it.
Thank you, appreciate it.
We really appreciate yourtaking the time to chat with us
today.
My pleasure, julie, it's beengreat.
Erica, thank you for coming inand joining me.
I know it was your first time.
It's hard to jump in like this,but you did such a great job
and I really, really appreciateit.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
I appreciate being able to be with you and to meet
you, Julie.
It's been a real honor.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
My thanks to you both and to everyone who listened to
us.
I hope you got something youcan take with you.
It's great no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
how to start exercising again, chat, GPT for
seniors and lots of other greatstuff.
I think it's funny andinformative.
I loved, loved their recentJimmy Buffett tribute Also.
This is kind of odd, but as awoman, I loved hearing what the
old Codgers were chatting about.
So visit their website atcampcodgercom or, of course,
(49:58):
listen to an episode whereveryou find your favorite podcasts.
So, Erica, do you have afavorite you might want to share
?
Speaker 3 (50:05):
Well, Denise, I seem to be in the car a lot and
that's my best time to listen topodcasts.
I've been listening lately to alot of retirement podcasts
because I think listening towhat people do with their own
lives helps with our balance ofbeing less involved with our
kids' lives.
It gives me ideas of what Imight want to do and it also
tells me clearly what I don'twant to do.
(50:26):
The Retirement Wisdom podcast,hosted by Joe Casey, is the one
that I've been following.
Retirement.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Wisdom with Joe Casey .
All right, I'm going to tuneinto that one, because I love
listening to stuff like that.
Well, thanks again to EricaGardner-Gray for joining me
today and, as I always say,please follow us on social media
and send us your ideas forepisodes at
BiteYourTonguePodcastcom.
Thank you again to ConnieGoren-Fisher, our audio engineer
(50:53):
, who continues to work hermagic.
And, of course, thank you toyou, our listeners.
We certainly would not keepgoing without you.
We hope you enjoyed Julie asmuch as Erica and I did Enjoy
2024.
Make it your best yet, butremember, sometimes you may just
have to bite your tongue.
Hey everyone, this is our last episode rewind while
we've been taking a break, andit's a great one.
In fact, our editor, connieGorant-Fisher, when she edited
this, called me and said boof.
I really like this episode.
Julie's the author of how toRaise an Adult and your Turn.
She's also a former dean atStanford University, but she
(00:21):
really dives deep into thechallenging world of raising
children into responsible adults.
She discusses the societalpressures that implore parents
to hover, the pitfalls ofover-parenting, and so much more
.
I think you'll really like thisepisode Again.
Even if you've listened once,listen again.
So let's get started.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Listen again.
So let's get starting.
It's not you can be anythingyou want.
It's if you work really hard,you have a good chance of being
what you want.
You know it's that thecondition precedent is hard work
and get yourself back up whenyou fall.
Hard work, work, ethic plusplus resilience will get you far
.
Like we believe in you.
We believe in your dreams, butyou have to work your tail off
(01:09):
to achieve them.
I think that's what was missingfor a lot of millennials.
I hear them talking about it.
It was like they said we couldbe anything.
It turns out it's much harderthan that.
Yeah, it is much harder thanthat.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue, the
podcast.
Before we introduce today'sguest, I'm so happy to announce
I have a guest co-host with me.
Welcome to Erica Gardner-Gray.
She's been an avid listener ofthe podcast since we launched
and reached out to me with somethoughts and suggestions about
the episodes.
I love so many of her ideas.
(01:41):
So, on a whim, I asked herwould you like a turn at being
the co-host?
She was a little bit reluctant,but she agreed.
I'll let her tell you more.
Welcome, Erica.
Can you let listeners know alittle bit more about you before
we begin.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Thanks, denise, you're right, I was reluctant
and I'm still a little reluctant, but it's a thrill to be here
with you today as your co-host.
I've always been somewhat of aself-help junkie and I was so
delighted when my friend Debbietold me about Bite your Tongue.
It's perfect for my currentstage of life and I found it
(02:16):
both provocative andentertaining and enlightening.
Larry, my husband of 39 years,and I have two sons, both in
their 30s.
One of them is married and hasa five-year-old and a
four-year-old, and the other oneis still single.
So you can see how many of thetopics on this podcast are
relatable for me.
After my prior career inmedical corporate America and
more recently as owner of my owninterior design firm, this
(02:39):
opportunity is a welcome change.
But enough about me.
Would you like to introduce ourguest Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Thank you so much, eric.
I'm thrilled to have you.
You know, I didn't realize.
You've been married 39 years.
I've been married 39 years too,so we've got something in
common and also two young adultsabout the same age, although
mine's one's a girl and one's aboy, so no wonder we like each
other.
Anyway, I want the listeners toknow at the end of the episode,
eric and I are going to sharesome of our favorite podcasts
(03:06):
that we think you all might like.
But let's get started.
Today we are so pleased towelcome Julie Lithcott Hames.
What an honor this is for us.
If you look at Julie's website,it says I root for humans.
She believes in humans and isdeeply interested in what gets
in our way.
Her work encompasses writing,speaking, teaching, mentoring
(03:30):
and activism.
She is the New York Timesbestselling author of how to
Raise an Adult, which gave riseto the popular TED Talk, and
I'll link that in our episodenotes.
Today we're going to talk toher about her new book called
your Turn how to Be an Adult.
It's been called,groundbreakingly, frank.
Julie holds degrees fromStanford, harvard Law and
(03:51):
California College of the Arts.
She lives in Palo Alto,california, with her partner of
over 30 years, their itinerantyoung adults and her mother.
Welcome Julie.
Is there anything else you'dlike to share about yourself
before we get started?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Oh, my goodness, I guess just that I'm a parent of
a 24 and a 22-year-old and I'mstill figuring that out, even
though I'm a so-called expert insome ways on parenting.
I want folks to know I am in itwith you, I am undoing and
repatterning and figuring stuffout.
So everything you hear me say,don't take it as critique.
(04:26):
I'm on my journey and I'mtrying to share with you some of
the lessons I've learned thehard way.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Oh, Julie, I love that.
I think you know this wholeissue of parenting young adults
is something that's kind ofgrowing.
You know, someone said to meit's the longest relationship we
have with our children.
I mean 18, they're up and gone.
We need to nurture that so thatthe next 40, 50 years, God
willing, we have a goodrelationship with them.
So I appreciate that.
So, Erica, I'm going to start.
(04:53):
Is that okay?
Yeah, Okay.
So, Julie, you love humans, youroot for humans.
What does this mean and what doyou want our listeners to
understand about that mantra?
So we know a little bit moreabout who you are.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
No one has ever pressed me on this, so thank you
for the opportunity.
I actually, in my heart, in myspirit, I care about humans.
Many of us do.
I'm not unique in that, but Ireally mean it.
So I take an interest in thestruggles of people around me.
I'm not trying to solveeverybody's problems, but I am
trying to show up withcompassion, letting people know
(05:30):
that I believe in them, lettingthem know I respect them, trying
to treat them with dignity,trying to be of some use if I
can.
I'm one of those people thatdoesn't see this human journey
as a race that some of us win.
I actually think we don't winunless we all get there.
So I'm trying to do my part.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
That's terrific.
It really drew my attentionwhen I was reading about you and
I thought maybe all of us needto be a little bit more like
that nowadays.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
You've written many books, but the two we're going
to talk about today are titledhow to Raise an Adult and your
Church.
One is a message to parentsabout how to raise a responsible
adult, and the other is amessage to all of us who grow up
to be an adult.
Tell us how you came to writeboth of these and what they mean
to you, both as a parent and asan adult, maruth.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
These two books are really the flip side of the same
coin.
When I was a dean at StanfordUniversity, I had the privilege
of working with 18 to22-year-olds to be someone who
rooted for them, tried to shinea light on their path and help
them figure themselves out.
In that work I saw that manywere still quite handheld by
(06:41):
parents, as if they were 5 or 11instead of 18 or 22.
And I could see the damage itseemed to have on their sense of
agency, their skills and theirmental health.
So I decided to write thatparenting book how to Raise an
Adult really based on what I'dseen, as well as interviews with
a whole lot of other peopleabout what they were seeing
around the country, not only atcolleges and universities but in
(07:02):
the workplace, k-12.
So that parenting manual existsand is my first book, but it was
based on me really trying toadvocate for young adults to be
able to thrive in this one lifeof theirs.
So your Turn, which is the morerecent book, is the flip side.
It's the book for kids, rootingfor them to thrive.
It doesn't have parentingadvice in it.
(07:23):
It has advice for young peopleon the choices, how to make the
choices and how to cope withstuff and what to prioritize and
so on, but both books emanatefrom the same center point,
which is me rooting for youngpeople.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
So you know I'm sorry , go ahead, erica Do you think
that parents are more involvedwith their kids at the request
of their kids, or do you thinkthat the parents have their own
needs to be more involved withtheir children?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, I think there's a third piece missing, which is
is society pressuring parentsto be more involved?
This is such a commonplacemanner of parenting.
It's not new any longer.
There was a time when it wasnew and odd, but really
millennials and now Gen Z havebeen raised with this over
parenting approach so it hasbecome the norm in many
communities, which makes it hardto stand up to or even for
(08:12):
parents to realize that it maybe too much.
It just seems to be the wayeveryone's doing it, so why
would they not?
I think some kids are asking formore involvement, but kids
don't know what childhood issupposed to be right If they
look around and see well,everyone else's parents are, you
know, at every soccer practice,or everyone else's parents are
(08:33):
kind of helping with thehomework, doing the homework.
You know, why aren't youhelping me?
Like I can't figure this outand you do my homework?
Well, it's on the parent to sayactually, this homework is
yours.
It's a compact between you andthe teacher.
I can answer a question here orthere, I can give you feedback,
(08:53):
I can try to give you advice,but I'm not going to do your
homework, no matter how manyother parents are sort of
lightening the load by finishingit for you.
That's wrong.
It won't help you grow to be abetter student or a better
grown-up one day.
So it's not on kids to knowthat that parental involvement
is too much.
It's on us as parents to really, I think, summon a memory from
the 80s or the 70s or the 60s orthe 50s, when we were being
(09:15):
raised and say like wait aminute, my parents weren't doing
my homework.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
What am I doing?
My parents didn't even know Iwent to take the SAT.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
And now they're taking 15 classes before they
take the SAT.
This also goes to what you talkabout.
Sometimes a kid is the petproject of the parent and
they're raising them to be X, yor Z.
And you also talk about thiswhole issue of perfectionism and
parents seeking perfectionism,and that puts a lot of pressure
on the kid.
How does a parent that maybewas involved?
(09:44):
So here we're talking toparents of adult kids they could
be anywhere from 18 to 35,because honestly I'll get to
that later how long adolescenceis taking these days?
Right, what do we say toparents of adult kids that can't
let go and still see theirchild as their pet project or
this yearning for perfectionism?
(10:04):
What are the steps they cantake?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Well, I'm going to answer this question with what I
should have said also inresponse to the last question,
which is one of the reasons wedo this, and I say we because I
have done it.
We over-parent our adultchildren out of our own ego's
need to be useful, to matter, orout of deep anxieties that we
(10:26):
have about ourselves.
So we've got to treat that kidlike the project or the dog in
the dog race or the thoroughbredgoing in the Kentucky Derby,
like I will feel better aboutmyself when I can say to my
peers my child has achieved this, is a graduate of, that is in
this career right, our need.
(10:47):
Something is unwell orincomplete or not enough within
ourselves, such that our childbecomes the evidence of our
worth, which is incrediblyunhealthy.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
For ourselves and the kid.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
So I'm here to say we canchange.
I, my partner Dan, and I havebeen hard at work doing what I
call repatterning with our 24year old, our eldest, with whom
we were way overprotective.
I tried to make life easierbecause he was really a
wonderful kid but also verysensitive.
We just tried to smooth thepath, take the tough things away
(11:22):
.
Well, he became a young adultwho can't handle the tough
things and we realized no, theloving thing is to empathize
with whatever the struggle isand then empower by evincing
confidence that one day it won'tbe this hard.
So now the family mantra is youknow what?
This looks hard, but you dohard things.
Smile, walk away.
And my little heart is poundingas I walk away because I want
(11:45):
to, you know, make it easier forthat kid.
But the more I practice it, themore confident I get and the
more I see him light up with ohmy mother believes in me instead
of oh my mother doesn't believein me.
Thank goodness she's there todo it for me.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I think finding that middle ground is really really
hard for a lot of us.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, we just interviewed Lauren Steinberg who
wrote this new book.
I'm sure you've heard of youand your Adult Child how to Grow
Together in Challenging Timesand he really talks about how
adolescence is lasting until 26,27, 28.
And he says it's parents.
He says similarly to what yousay about parents being
over-involved, going to all thesoccer games, blah, blah, blah.
(12:23):
But also he brought up a lot ofvery empathetic for the world
these kids are growing up intoday, meaning that one of the
things he said was real estate'sgrowing four times more than
salaries.
It's very hard to get afoothold, so how long do you
support?
How much do you support?
What's that happy medium?
Like Erica said that we have tomeet.
(12:44):
How do we get there?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I mean Steinberg is raising a really good point
about the widening incomeinequities that salary and wages
haven't kept up with the costof living, and it's certainly
true where I live here in theSan Francisco Bay Area.
And yet if we hold our kids'hands forever and then one day
we're dead and gone or infirm,then they're really going to be
(13:07):
lost because they've been taughtthat I'm okay when my parents
are holding my hand.
Well, that's not a promise wecan keep forever.
So I would advise every parentkeep your eye on the long-term
purpose of parenting, which israise that offspring to be able
to fend for themselves withoutyou.
We hope to not be taken fromthem too early, but along the
way we're supposed to betransferring our knowledge to
(13:28):
them and teaching them andletting them have the life
experiences that teach them.
So the line is I have thisfour-step method for teaching
any kid any skill.
First you do it for them andwe're really good at that and
you do it with them, likethey're there but you're doing,
you're doing the work, butyou're supposed to be kind of
teaching the work, narrating outloud.
Now we do this.
(13:48):
Now we're going to do this.
Now we're going to do this.
Step three you watch them do it.
They're in the driver's seat,you're.
You're in the passenger seat,you can grab the wheel in an
emergency.
Step four they can do it.
You're out of the car andyou've confidence.
You both have confidence thatthey've practiced through steps
two and three enough they knowhow to do it.
(14:08):
So, in other words, you don'tleave them, you know.
You don't drop them cold turkey.
You don't do everything for aperson and then abandon them.
Right, you teach them.
You have a goal of I want mykid to be capable of doing this.
So when it comes to rent, youdecide like is my kid a hard
worker?
Do they have a job?
Right, put those expectationsin place.
And if that job doesn't earnenough wage or salary to comport
(14:32):
to what basic minimum rent isin your town, then you may have
to figure out all right, are wegoing to subsidize in some way
that recognizes you're a hardworker, but rents are out of
control?
Maybe you can afford to do that,maybe you can't.
Maybe it's that toughconversation where you say I'm
so sad our area has becomeunaffordable for young people.
Thankfully, there are manyother places in this country
(14:55):
where it's not out of balance.
We might see Gen Z moving tothe heartland, where there are
cities with great jobs andreasonable cost of living.
I mean, maybe that's howregions get repopulated, because
young people can't afford tolive here in the Bay Area or on
the coasts anymore.
I don't know.
But there are solutionsavailable and they all entail
(15:16):
ultimately empowering the youngadult to get farther out there
in life, do more and more forthemselves, rather than bring
them home into their childhoodbedroom, pat them on the head
and say don't worry, it'llalways be okay, because it won't
will be gone, and then theywill be lost.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
How important do you think it is to put timeframes
for helping them?
Yeah, for example, when youwere saying, help the kids with
the rent, if it's too much, doyou say I'll help you for some
finite amount of time, and thenthere's an expectation that they
figure it out right forward.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
I think these are conversations that have to be
had.
So, yes, and every kid isdifferent.
Some kids have mental healthchallenges and they're not going
to be as equipped to kind ofsupport themselves as soon as
others might.
They might be in a field thatdoesn't pay very well.
My kid, for example, is an aidefor kids with special needs in
the public schools.
(16:08):
Well, I love that.
I think it's God's work andangels work, but sure doesn't
pay, for he's represented by aunion.
But that salary isn't going tocover a studio apartment
anywhere near where we live.
So do I want to tell him hecan't do that for a living?
Do I want to tell him he shoulddo it in a different part of
the country?
Or do I want to partiallysubsidize his situation?
(16:31):
And that's the route my partnerand I have taken partially
subsidizing.
But we won't do it forever.
We haven't yet figured out forhow long, but that hard
conversation is coming.
He's 24 now.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
But don't you think?
I mean for me, as long asthey're working and working hard
, no one's going to do that job,because no one can afford to
live on that, and we need goodpeople in those jobs.
And that's the same thing withteaching.
Yeah, jessica Gross at the NewYork Times just wrote a call on
the.
No one wants to be a teacher,and yet it's the teachers that
are shaping the future Right,and so it's really hard.
(17:05):
But I want to say one morething.
You talk about moving to theheartland, and I get that, but
the political climate of ourcountry right now is becoming
really difficult.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah.
So I would say a couple ofthings.
not to presume everyone on thelistening, I know I know the
same politics, but I certainlyget and agree with you If a
person is from a blue statelooking to move to a more
affordable red state, so tospeak.
Typically the urban environmentwherever you go is quite
liberal and progressive.
So even if the entire statetends to swing red, the cities
(17:39):
tend to be blue.
That's true almost everywhere.
So be heartened by that andwhen I say the heartland I'm
also talking about places inOhio and places in Wisconsin and
places in Illinois that there'splenty of progressive people
there.
So I would Google if I'm ayoung person listening right now
or a parent of 22 to 35,.
(17:59):
I would Google best cities foryoung adults.
They're gonna tell you aboutcost of living, cost to rent or
buy a place, quality of life,nightlife, social activities and
so on.
Right, those places exist.
In fact, some of them havegrants like we'll pay you to
come to our city.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Well, I think this abortion issue is a big one.
I've heard a lot of youngpeople say I'm not moving to a
state that will not allow awoman the right to choose.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Everybody has to make choices.
You're looking at a Blackperson, black and biracial.
I also identify as queer.
I very much believe we have tofind our people.
We have to find our communities, both in work and in
relationship, where we can beour true selves without
persecution, prosecution or,just you know, massive
difficulties.
So let's get really outside thebox.
(18:47):
It may be that our adultchildren don't want to leave
Silicon Valley or New York orthese other expensive places.
Fine, they're going to livewith us.
What are the parameters?
How could they live with us andbehave as adults, instead of us
feeling like we still have ourteenager, who's now 35, at home?
It's about agreements.
It's about boundaries,respecting that they ought to be
(19:09):
able to come and go as theyplease, just like we do, but
also respecting that they willcontribute to the family
household far more than thechores they did as a child.
They should now be doing someof the grocery shopping and they
should be looking out forgrandma and they should be
thinking about, like augment,whatever they were responsible
for as a kid ratcheted up.
(19:30):
It comes with moreresponsibility, but also more
freedom.
You know, it is possible tolive, to coexist as adults in
the same house, as long aseverybody is treated as and
assumes the responsibility of anadult.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
There's something really beautiful about
multi-generational living andmany countries do it.
The problem is it goes back tothe thing we said at the
beginning your ego gets in theway.
Johnny's living at home.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Right.
So what we have to say is it'sreally unaffordable here.
So Johnny's living at home, butwe're really proud of him.
We give him his space, hecontributes beautifully.
So of him, we give him hisspace, he contributes
beautifully.
So you know, he's an adult, weall just still happen to live
together, right?
And then Johnny's got torespect your adult life.
I mean, I, I've got a Johnny,I've got a 24 year old.
For us he's the aide for kidswith special needs.
(20:15):
We charge him rent that is onethird of his gross income,
because that's what the formulais.
But we're saving that money forhim so that when he's ready to
go get an apartment, he's gotsome saved for a security
deposit and first and lastmonth's rent, right, it's all in
furtherance of that one day.
But we also had to say to himyou know, could you and your
(20:36):
friends maybe play D&D atsomeone else's house, because we
kind of need some alone time?
And he was like, oh really, Imean, we were, we lost our empty
nest.
We missed that and it'simportant to be able to have
this conversation instead of.
Well, I guess our life isdeferred until our son gets his
situation worked out Like no,everybody matters, be able to
(20:56):
speak as frankly as you can.
Agreements, boundaries,commitments, gratitude.
Thanks so much, son, for takingcare of the dishes when it was
my turn.
I really appreciate you, justlike you would say to any adult.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
That leads you to that good question, erica, that
we talked about, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
In your book you quote Madeline Levine's message
that we should support our kidsin being who they are by giving
them the opportunity to fit thekid, as opposed to trying to
make our kid fit our notion ofwho they should be.
With many adults today, thattrial and error of our kids
seems to be going on a long time.
(21:33):
How long do we support it andwhen do we have, or do we have,
some responsibility to point outthe obvious financial
ramifications of continuing totry things hard?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, it's case by case.
Foundationally, fundamentally,I mean, humans want to be
successful.
They want to create things.
They want to do things withtheir hands or their body or
their brains.
We feel great satisfaction fromwork if it's work that we're
good at and we love.
So we want to be pushing ourkids.
We want to set that expectationthat it is not a thing for you
(22:09):
to want to live here forever.
It is not a thing for you tojust like we make dinner for you
night after night and you siton the couch like you know you
you've got to get out there, anda kid who doesn't want to get
out there might be dealing withsome depression or some anxiety.
Get that treated, get thatworked on depression or some
anxiety.
Get that treated, get that workdone, because they ought to be
yearning.
They ought to be yearning forindependence and freedom and
(22:33):
responsibility and all that.
They ought to be yearning tolive with peers instead of with
us.
So we've got to signal thatthose things matter and are
important.
We've got to say like in a yearI don't think you'll still be
living here, you know, certainlynot in two years, right?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
I one time heard someone say and this was when my
kids were like in high school,maybe going to college you want
a loving environment at home,but not too comfortable, right,
you know meaning.
They can't go out to a bar andbring home a guy or a girl to
spend the night.
And you're open to that becausesometimes the main reason they
want to leave is to have sex,because sometimes the main
reason they want to leave is tohave sex.
I know that sounds terrible tosay, but they don't want their
(23:08):
mom and dad or mom or whoever itis their guardians knowing what
they're doing all the time.
So if you allow too much andmake it too comfortable, it
might be even harder for them toleave.
I don't know.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Well, that's a really good point and I think modern
parenting is there's an upside,there's a downside to the
closeness too much handholding,too much hovering.
But the upside is we know them,they know us, we really like
each other.
We're more likely to know thenames of their friends, their
teachers and so on.
So then it's harder to say likeyou can't be who you are in
this home.
I don't care if you're in arelationship, not in my house.
We're just we.
(23:41):
We aren't the my way or thehighway.
Children are to be seen, butnot her generation.
You know we're much morepermissive.
So you're absolutely right, wecan't make homes so cushy that
they would never want to leave.
They're supposed to want toleave and get their own life
because they're sick and tiredof living under our house and
our rules.
You know that's a real heavylift for this generation of
(24:01):
parents.
I respect the challenge of it,but I also really appreciate the
wisdom of it.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I liked your term self-efficacy.
I call it the little engine.
That could Maybe the mostimportant book we ever read our
kids, and we have done a greatjob maybe too great a job
teaching them that they can doanything they want to do, and
now that they're adults, they'relearning they have limitations.
So what's the in-betweenmessage that parents of adult
(24:30):
children should be talking aboutwith them?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, it's not.
You can be anything you want.
If you work really hard, youhave a good chance of being what
you want.
You know it's that.
The condition precedent is hardwork and get yourself back up
when you fall.
Hard work, work ethic plusresilience will get you far.
Like we believe in you.
We believe in your dreams, butyou have to work your tail off
(24:55):
to achieve them.
I think that's what was missingfor a lot of millennials.
I hear them talking about it.
It was like they said we couldbe anything.
It turns out it's much harderthan that.
Yeah, it is much harder thanthat.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
You have such an amazing background in all your
studies and I just wonderhistorically we went from the
way we were raised.
You know they rang the dinnerbell to come home.
They didn't know where we were.
And I know the world haschanged.
Ok, but I want to go into whyyou think our generation of
(25:28):
parents have ended up in thisstate.
Does that make sense?
Sure, sort of having kids thataren't ready to launch, or even
25 percent of adult kids areestranged from their parents.
You know what is this about.
What is it historically andjust in our world that has
caused this kind of change?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
So that statistic on 25% are estranged is new to me
so I haven't read about it, Ihaven't studied it.
My hypothesis there is whensomebody has been micromanaged,
they at some point say to heckwith this, I'm out of here, you
do not have the right to know mywhereabouts, you do not have
the right to know about everyminute detail of my life.
(26:04):
It is too much.
It feels like surveillance, itfeels like an encroachment into
privacy and anybody raised thatway at some point.
I'm rooting for them to leaveand say stop, and if you can't
stop, I'm out of here.
And so I'm guessing that thereis some element of that 25% that
has had it.
I am not your dog on a leashand if you don't realize that,
(26:27):
then I'm going off leash.
I hope they're still open totheir parents learning and
growing and being willing tokind of forge that healthy
relationship one day.
But who knows?
Look here's how it startedOverparenting, or what we call
helicopter parenting,micromanaging parenting actually
began in the 80s.
The term was coined by 1990based on what had changed in the
(26:47):
80s, and it was these things westarted bubble wrapping their
entire lives in the 80s littleguards and protectors on
everything.
Prepare the road for the child,instead of preparing the child
for the road.
It was like we are so worriedwe're always going to have a
helmet on you or have a bubblewrap on the edge of the sharp
thing or the road.
It was like we are so worriedwe're always going to have a
helmet on you or have a bubblewrap on the edge of the sharp
(27:08):
thing or the corner.
So we got very overly concernedabout safety Instead of letting
the physical environment teachthe kids how to use their bodies
.
It was like no, no, no, let'sjust bubble wrap everything.
We became very sort of show upat not just games but practices
for soccer and you know, you'reamazing and you're great and oh,
(27:29):
congrats.
You swung a bat.
Like we became these overpraising people and made you
know kids like my parents alwayshere, my parent thinks I'm
great and my parents alwaysgoing to handle everything.
We created the play dateinstead of kids going out and
finding kids to play with.
It was that's not safe, don'tdo that.
I think it was, frankly, acommentary on women in the
workplace in the 70s.
Like no, no, no.
Now we have to have every hourafter school arranged by parents
(27:52):
, structured by parents or somethird party Stranger.
Danger was born.
Don't talk to strangers, younever know what can happen.
So we've got this overbroad rulethat has led to rudeness in
kids.
Like they won't you say hi on asidewalk, they look at you like
you're a creep.
Well, they're not learning howto interact in their environment
and they're learning to beafraid of their environment.
So all of this, these kids, whohad the first play date in 1984
(28:13):
, were the first kids to come tocollege in the late 90s with
parents who could not let go,still wanted to be involved in
interpersonal, still wanted totalk to authorities on their
behalf, still wanted to holdtheir hand and handle the
problem solving and all of that.
So we do it because now it'sthe norm, but we also do it
(28:34):
because of this ego need to feeluseful and validated.
It's sort of become thehallmark of modern parenting is
look what I achieved for my kidtoday, instead of this pride and
like I'm teaching my kid to dofor themselves today.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I understand what you're saying about that.
That makes a lot of sense to me, and certainly the flip side of
it, though I'm wondering, asyou're talking, is the sense of
responsibility to not shirk ourduties.
On one hand, yes, you can sayit, so their parents have their
ego gratification, but sometimesfor me, if I don't say
(29:09):
something or I don't dosomething, I feel like I am
letting them go too much andshirking my responsibility and
being a bad parent.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
So it's so hard to to say that kids who are raised by
working class families oftenhave to do more chores around
the house look after youngchildren, maybe have a part-time
job, start dinner.
They have to do more workbecause their parents' job
situation is nuts and theyemerge to young adulthood far
more self-reliant, far moreaccountable and responsible than
their more affluentcounterparts who don't seem to
(29:46):
know how to do anything becausethey've never been asked to do
anything.
You know, yes, there is, atsome point, neglect, like you
were never there for your kid.
You don't know where they are,you didn't show up, you didn't
care, right, we don't want to beat that end of the spectrum,
nor do we want to be acting likethis is my pet dog and I'm
going to carry them with me atall times.
You know to be able to say toyour kid if you're busy, like
(30:06):
pick the activity that's reallyimportant to you and I will be
there, Can't be there, all youknow and every single one.
I work full time, I've gotother kids, I've got other
things right.
You share, you show with yourbody language and with your
actual language that you care,you praise them for the things
they're doing.
Well no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
You know, I used to hear the phrase benign neglect
and sometimes some of the bestkids raised with benign neglect.
They felt loved.
It just wasn't overpowering.
I used to say my kids are oldernow but I wish I would have
raised my kids the way I raisedmy dog.
Go to your crate, you know.
Instead, I was always worriedabout how I was treating them
emotionally and was like and Ihurt their self-esteem.
And what I really want to askis this isn't changing.
(31:12):
Julie, you've written thesebooks.
People are talking about itleft and right, but every time I
bring this up or talk about itto even young friends and
teachers don't come into theschools.
Now it's worse than it's everbeen.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I think COVID has certainly wreaked havoc on
everything, of course, and I'mhearing from teachers that kids
seem younger than ever.
A there seems to be a lesseningor a lesser maturity attached
to the ages where we'd think youshould be mature by now, but
that's been in progress forquite some time.
I think.
You know, nobody would say toan 18-year-old today well, you
know, up or out, you're 18.
(32:13):
Like, we're still calling themchildren when they're 35, right,
but in my generation I'm Gen X,born in 1967.
A lot of us were told you canlive here until you're 18, but
that's it.
We went to the military, wewent to college or we went to
the workplace.
I'm waiting for someone to sayno one in their right mind
(32:36):
should be allowed to join themilitary at 18 because they're
still children.
Some people believe that and tolook at Steinberg's work on
adolescents, are they really oldenough to make that decision?
Has that much changed in themin terms of their cognitive and
psychosocial, emotionaldevelopment?
I don't know, but I do think,bigger picture, we have to be
interested in our youth learningthe skills, the practical
skills, the skills around humaninteraction, how to solve their
(32:57):
problems, how to cope whenthings go wrong how to get back
up.
I mean, what's to become of usif the next generation can't do
those things?
Speaker 1 (33:05):
You're right.
You're absolutely right,absolutely right.
There was something you talkedabout how can parents and
mentors sort of support thistransition from adolescence to
adulthood without enabling orimposing expectations?
What steps can parents take tohelp the kid?
I mean, they may have alreadydone everything you've said.
They've been to every soccergame, they wrote the college
(33:27):
admission thing and the kid gotinto a great college.
Now the kid can't find a job,doesn't really know how to go
about finding a job.
How can the parent take stepsto correct some of those
mistakes they made earlier on?
Speaker 2 (33:40):
So sometimes the parent isn't the right person
anymore because our relationshipis so intertwined.
A lot of people with you know,who are middle class or above,
who have some extra money, willhire that executive function
coach.
If your kid can't seem to put aresume together or figure out
how to use the internet to findjobs that are available, get
(34:00):
that third party signed up.
Hired to work with your kid Xnumber of hours a week.
It sets an expectation thatthis is important.
We're not the best teachers ofit.
We're hiring somebody to workwith you.
Your obligation is countable tothem.
Point being, there are skillsto be taught and it's high time
our kid learned.
If a kid isn't motivated to geta job again, maybe they're
(34:21):
depressed, maybe something'sgoing on.
It's a sign.
If a body isn't in motion, ifit's stagnant, something's up.
We've got to be on the lookoutfor that.
So some combination of goodtherapy and good coaching might
be the path forward that makessense.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
I love that idea of bringing an expert into the
equation, even if we ourselveshave the ability to be handling
that role, because that's adistancing in and of itself.
That can be helpful for theadult kids to know that they
have other resources because,god forbid, something happens to
us.
They need to know theiralternatives Right.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
That's absolutely true.
I also think it doesn't evenhave to be paid help.
I sometimes use a friend, aneighbor, a relative.
Hey, could you talk to my kidabout this?
I'm concerned about it.
They may be more open with youthan they would be with me.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
And I think it's also okay to evince a future that
you want to see come about.
So you might say I know it'shard now, but I also know that
within a couple of years you'regoing to have a job Articulate
the future you're trying to.
A couple of years feels like along time.
Six months, three months.
You're going to have a job,articulate the future you want.
It tells your kid you believethey can get there.
(35:33):
And that's one of the thingsthat's missing from this
micromanaging parenting.
All of our overhelp sends thisinsidious message I don't
believe you can do this.
Therefore, don't worry, I'vegot it.
We're trying to be helpful, butit totally undermines.
So one of the best ways willhelp a young adult problem solve
, whether they're in your faceor they're texting you, is to
(35:57):
express compassion oh, I'm sosorry.
That sounds so hard, are youokay?
I love you.
And then smile and say let meknow how you handled it and walk
away or put the phone down.
I'm not talking about anemergency, that I'm bleeding on
the street.
I'm just talking about a run ofthe mill.
Didn't do this, forgot aboutthat.
Got to figure this out.
(36:17):
My son is a teacher's aide.
As I said, he's a member of hisunion trying to advocate for
higher wages and they had aconference and he was invited to
be a rep for his union.
He blew the deadline to sign upfor a hotel in the hotel block
and he was stressed out of hismind and in the past I would
have been stressed, I would havebeen there handling it for him,
but I said I knew better.
(36:38):
So I said you know what.
This is hard, but you do hardthings.
I'm happy to sit here at thetable and do my work while you
do this, just for moral support.
But you've got this.
He, in his very stressed out way, found the email, found the
information, called a hotel inNevada, spoke with a clerk
because all the rooms online hecould tell the block of rooms
(36:58):
reserved was already full.
It was too late.
So then he had to go to a planB.
Boy, I could feel the stressslaking off of him and I was
really proud of myself forstaying regulated.
I wasn't trying to help, but Ialso wasn't mean or like I told
you.
So I didn't do that.
I just was present and with mykind, silent presence he felt
rooted for.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
You don't seem like the silent type to me.
Sorry, judah, I'm not thesilent type either, so I know
how hard it is to bite yourtongue.
You want to jump in and talk tothe clerk.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Hi, thank you so much .
He's my right.
Nothing else I knew.
This moment was training himfor the next one, and why was I
going to deprive him of theopportunity to train and grow
stronger?
Speaker 3 (37:41):
I love that kind silent present.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
I just rub it down so that I can tape it up on my
mirror or something I'm going topractice that Also write down,
smile and walk away, becauseit's our own need to be involved
and solve it, because, ofcourse, we're older, we're
educated, we've had lifeexperience, we have connections,
network.
We can solve it, like the timethis plane got canceled.
They canceled his plane cominghome from college and I was like
(38:06):
, oh my gosh, and then I wasabout to give a talk, or in the
middle of giving a talk, on thisbook I couldn't.
So I had to trust that my kidcould handle it.
And you know what?
He figured it out.
He figured out how to getrebooked and he got a travel
voucher for the inconvenience.
And I would have deprived himof learning those lessons if I
had swooped in and solved it.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
And I would say, the thing I struggle with the most
is I can say you can do ityourself, smile and walk away,
but I have to hold myself backfrom nagging.
Did you do it?
Did you do it?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I really that's my hardest part, okay.
So let me tell you, I wasgiving a talk somewhere three
months ago and packed auditorium, mostly adults.
I give them how to raise anadult, parenting talk.
I take questions and this momis sitting about 20 rows back
and she says well, in our housewe have this situation where my
son really needs to finish someapplications.
And then she goes like this shelooks all the way down the row,
like three people down the row,turns out her son is sitting.
(39:05):
He won't start.
I keep nagging him, I keeptelling him, I keep reminding
him because they have to getdone.
Do you have any advice for me?
And I said is that your son?
And she said yes.
And I said are you collectivelywilling for me to have this
conversation with you in frontof all these people?
And the son was like this andthe mom said yes.
I said all right, mom, this isyour son's application.
(39:26):
Whether he does it or not is upto him.
It's a reflection of him.
If he wants to do this, he will.
If he doesn't want to, he won't.
You can say to him hey, kid,don't forget this deadline.
If you need me I'll help, butthis is yours.
You've got it right.
Say that once.
Let him know that you are thereto provide help.
He knows that.
(39:46):
You do not need to say it again, let alone 10 times.
The more you nag, the more itmakes him feel.
My mother doesn't think I knowhow to manage my life or that I
care about my life.
Okay, so back off and trustthat it'll either get done or it
won't.
But it's his life.
And then I said to the son,how'd I do?
I think he gave me a thumbs up.
(40:06):
You know it's hard because wedon't want him to fail to apply
to college or fail to apply forthat job.
But the more we nag and do it,the more we're saying I have to
handle your life for you becauseyou're incapable.
Sometimes they need theconsequences of well, you didn't
apply.
And then you don't rib them,you don't say if only you'd
listened to me, you would haveRight.
(40:26):
You just it's not your life.
That's the thing you have toget out of like.
I need this outcome, I need himto apply, I need him to pass
this.
Why Right, you have your life,he has his.
You can say hey, you got tograduate from high school.
When you graduate from highschool, I expect you to go to
college or the workplace.
Those are my rules.
But how you get there is up toyou, because it's your life, not
(40:47):
mine.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Takes a lot of strength, a lot of strength, but
I get it.
You talk about the importanceof practicing gratitude, but
we're in a culture that'sconstantly telling us to seek
more Lord knows.
Social media is just everyonewants to be the perfect
everything.
How can we balance appreciationfor what we have without
falling into the trap ofcomplacency?
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Well, I don't see a lot of complacency around me.
I'm in Palo Alto.
It's a highly stressed out,hardworking place and it has its
downsides, but complacencyisn't one of them.
I'm not sure that a gratitudepractice leads to complacency.
Gratitude, I think, helps youappreciate what you have so that
(41:29):
you realize it's not all badright.
You appreciate what you have sothat you realize it's not all
bad right.
Gratitude is a great thing topractice.
When you're feeling really sad,scared, angry, things have gone
wrong, it's great to pause andsay you know what?
Let me just rebalance by sayinghere's what I can be grateful
for, and small, the more minute,the more specific, the better.
Not my health, my life, butlike I had a great breakfast
(41:53):
today because my partner went tothe store and there were things
for me to cook.
You know I'm here in clothesthat I, that I like they're
ironed, like they're clean.
I'm grateful that my mother isa gardener and sharing this
beautiful garden.
I'm grateful, you know, you'rereally specific.
I think gratitude helps us copeand then the stuff that we're
afraid of or worried aboutdoesn't seem quite as
insurmountable.
So I don't think complacency isthe opposite of gratitude.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
In your book how to Raise an Adult, you outline four
types of parentingauthoritative, permissive,
indulgent, neglectful,authoritarian right.
How does that change as aparent to a young adult?
Speaker 2 (42:25):
It doesn't.
Nobody wants to be neglectful,so take that off the table.
Nobody should be anauthoritarian.
That's the my way or thehighway, my house, my rules.
It's rule-based, with no hairand concern or compassion.
Nobody should be doing that.
Indulgent, permissive is likethe best friend, like I'll
handle everything, it's all good, you know no rules and just
(42:46):
total, feel total, like touchy,feely, whatever you want, kid.
The sweet spot we're supposedto be aiming for and should
stick with is rules andexpectations, but also high
degree of care and concern.
That's authoritative, okay.
We should have rules andexpectations, how you teach them
, how life work.
Pick up your clothes, do thesedishes contribute, pitch in,
(43:09):
come home at a certain timeright Consequences if they don't
do those things, but a highdegree of emotional relating.
How are you Good to see you?
I love you.
You know how's that guitaryou're always playing.
I know I'm always nagging youon your science test, but you
know what it's yours to figureout.
I want you to do what you lovethat guitar you play.
(43:32):
It brings me joy when I hear it, the music wafting through the
house, and I want you to knowthat.
I hope you have enough time toplay that guitar because you're
pretty good at it.
Right, it's showing up andseeing them, treating them with
unconditional love.
Not love when they get A's, butlove because they breathe.
That's the authoritativeparenting style.
Never ends.
Love it, I love it.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Don't you love that, erica?
Style never ends.
Love it, I love it.
Don't you love that, erica?
Hey, darren, I'm thinking that,though we're talking some about
kids who grade, that even inadulthood, it's the same
approach the emotional support,the recognizing the achievements
, the successes and noticingthem, I think is really
important.
I mean, I guess you asked whichyou know when does it segue?
Speaker 2 (44:08):
And I said it never does.
I think I'm wrong about that.
I will amend that.
And you asked which you know?
When does it segue?
And I said it never does.
I think I'm wrong about that.
I will amend that and say, look, you should only ever be an
authoritative parent none of theother three types.
But once they become fullfledged adults, you're more of a
loving coach who's on thesidelines to applaud the
director, who sits in theaudience and watches as their
(44:30):
life unfolds.
A director doesn't get up inthe middle of a play or a
musical and tell them they didit wrong, you know, or fix it
when it went wrong.
They just say, look, let's letit play out.
Like, be there and watch, enjoy, show up with love.
Every time you step back, itmakes room for your kid to step
forward.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
I heard it said that we're supposed to be consultant
in adulthood?
Yeah, and a lot of ourlisteners are parents of adult
kids.
And what is, what is aconsultant?
Do rates to be asked?
Nice.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Yeah, let me.
Let me tell you this With mydaughter.
I'm a fixer.
She's 22.
I'm the sort of parent when shecalled during the pandemic
living off campus Mom, I've gota paper due, I don't have my
internet hooked up, my printerdoesn't work and I can't reach
my landlord.
I got to register my scooter inthe state I now live in and I
was like, oh my gosh, avery,don't register the scooter.
She's like mom, I'm notactually asking, I just want you
(45:24):
to, I just want to place anevent and I'm thinking like, how
could you not ask Other people,ask me for advice?
I wrote books Like I've been anauthority in so many ways and
what I've learned now is when mykid vents to say compassionate
things, that sounds hard.
I'm so sorry you're dealingwith that, are you OK?
I love you Do?
(45:47):
you ever say is there anything Ican do?
Do you need any?
Never, pause is essential.
And then, with a smile in mytone of voice, I say maybe do
you just want to vent or do youneed ideas.
I'm here for whatever it is youneed.
In the olden days I would say doyou want to vent or do you want
ideas?
People like advocating for theideas, like, do you want ideas?
And I've learned that my toneof voice I have to regulate
(46:08):
myself, which is why the pauseafter the compassion, and maybe
even pause so long that she sayssomething else.
And then, when it's my turnnext, I'll say you know what?
I have some thoughts, happy toshare them.
If you want, you let me know.
Like I am dying to share mythoughts, of course.
But here's what's happened overthe couple of years I've been
practicing this.
Now, when I it used to be,she's like nope, I'm good, mom,
(46:30):
thanks Right.
She did not want my ideas,probably because I've stuffed my
ideas down her throat all herlife.
Now, when I say, do you want tojust vent or do you want some
ideas, she's like oh, mom, Iwant all your ideas.
This is my example of I havebacked myself sufficiently away
such that my daughter does notfeel like I'm trying to lead her
life or that I don't trust thatshe can.
(46:51):
So now she can come forward.
In pulling a little bit back, Ihave drawn my daughter closer
and I have hit this sweet spotwith this kid finally that I
wouldn't trade for anything.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Lucky, lucky, I shouldn't say lucky you.
You've worked hard at it.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
We've worked at it and she's been great.
That's exactly right.
I've tried to learn and grow,for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
And I think we're all learning and grow.
That's what this whole podcastis about.
But before we wrap up, julie,at the end of every episode we
always ask our guests to leaveour listeners with one or two
pieces of advice that we wantthem to take away.
It can be something you've saidbefore when they press done on
the podcast what do you wantthem to really hear from you?
Speaker 2 (47:37):
I want you to hear that I'm rooting for you, that
we are all a work in progressand, as much as I am an expert,
I have to work on some of myparenting stuff almost every day
and I believe in you.
You can do the work.
Figure out why you're soanxious about your kid's
outcomes.
Figure out why you're soworried about other kid's
outcomes.
Figure out why you're soworried about other people's
judgment.
Your kid wants you to do thework, the therapy, the working
your stuff out, so that theyhave a healthy parent who's got
(48:01):
their act together and can bethat wonderful consultant or
coach in their lives.
So it takes work, but you'recapable of the work and I know
it because I'm doing the worktoo.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Thank you so much, Erica.
Do you have anything else toadd at the end?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
here.
I guess my take home from a lotof what I read in your books
and what I've heard you say isthat over-helping causes harm.
It leaves the kids without theskills and the strengths to take
care of themselves, and I thinkthat's a good lesson for all of
us.
Erica.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I appreciate that I like to say overhelping,
undermines.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
You know, I think that helps people, overhelp,
undermines.
I love all your little wordsand terminologies, all of it.
Thank you, appreciate it.
We really appreciate yourtaking the time to chat with us
today.
My pleasure, julie, it's beengreat.
Erica, thank you for coming inand joining me.
I know it was your first time.
It's hard to jump in like this,but you did such a great job
and I really, really appreciateit.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
I appreciate being able to be with you and to meet
you, Julie.
It's been a real honor.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
My thanks to you both and to everyone who listened to
us.
I hope you got something youcan take with you.
It's great no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
how to start exercising again, chat, GPT for
seniors and lots of other greatstuff.
I think it's funny andinformative.
I loved, loved their recentJimmy Buffett tribute Also.
This is kind of odd, but as awoman, I loved hearing what the
old Codgers were chatting about.
So visit their website atcampcodgercom or, of course,
(49:58):
listen to an episode whereveryou find your favorite podcasts.
So, Erica, do you have afavorite you might want to share
?
Speaker 3 (50:05):
Well, Denise, I seem to be in the car a lot and
that's my best time to listen topodcasts.
I've been listening lately to alot of retirement podcasts
because I think listening towhat people do with their own
lives helps with our balance ofbeing less involved with our
kids' lives.
It gives me ideas of what Imight want to do and it also
tells me clearly what I don'twant to do.
(50:26):
The Retirement Wisdom podcast,hosted by Joe Casey, is the one
that I've been following.
Retirement.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Wisdom with Joe Casey .
All right, I'm going to tuneinto that one, because I love
listening to stuff like that.
Well, thanks again to EricaGardner-Gray for joining me
today and, as I always say,please follow us on social media
and send us your ideas forepisodes at
BiteYourTonguePodcastcom.
Thank you again to ConnieGoren-Fisher, our audio engineer
(50:53):
, who continues to work hermagic.
And, of course, thank you toyou, our listeners.
We certainly would not keepgoing without you.
We hope you enjoyed Julie asmuch as Erica and I did Enjoy
2024.
Make it your best yet, butremember, sometimes you may just
have to bite your tongue.
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