January 24, 2025 • 39 mins
This is a very special episode for a couple of reasons. First, we’re thrilled to finally interview Dr. Ellen Braaten, the podcast's original co-host, about her incredible book, Bright Kids Who Couldn’t Care Less. It’s a great conversation.
Second keep listening to find out big news about the podcast
But the conversation today is about rekindling your child’s motivation, and the tools she shares work wonders for any age group.
As parents of adult children, many of us wonder if our kids are truly living up to their potential—or if we’re just looking at it through our own expectations. That’s the heart of today’s conversation.
Here are some highlights of today's episode:
🌟 "Parenting isn't over." Braaten reminds us that our role as parents continues even as our kids grow up. Braaten shares invaluable insights on understanding our kids' unique strengths and how to support them in finding their passions.
🤔 Are you worried about your adult child's lack of motivation? We discuss signs to look for and how to approach these sensitive conversations.
💬 "Life is a puzzle, and we put pieces in the puzzle." Discover how to help your kids find their passion and purpose.
🤔 Are you worried about your adult child’s lack of motivation? Braaten discusses the signs to look for and when to seek professional help. It's crucial to recognize the difference between typical struggles and deeper issues that may need attention.
🎓 College isn't the only path! Braaten encourages parents to embrace diverse career choices and to support their kids in exploring what truly brings them joy, whether that's a trade, a creative pursuit, or something else entirely.
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
One of the things we have to do is know ourselves
better, and we are on a lifelongdiscovery, just as they are.
Sometimes these sorts of ideasabout who our child should be is
unfinished business forourselves, or things like I went
to college, I paid my waythrough college, I was the first
one in my family.
You're going to college too,because aren't you so lucky, as
(00:23):
opposed to listening to whatthey're telling us about what
they want to do?
So sometimes it's our own stuff, and so we have to understand
who we are.
What's our unfinished business?
What are the things that weexpect them to be?
Because we have theseexpectations.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to Bite your Tongue thepodcast.
I'm Denise.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
And I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will join us as we
explore the ins and outs ofbuilding healthy relationships
with our adult children.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Together.
We'll speak with experts, shareheartfelt stories and get
timely advice addressing topicsthat matter most to you.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Get ready to dive deep and learn, to build and
nurture deep connections withour adult children and, of
course, when, to bite ourtongues.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
So let's get started.
Hello everyone and welcome toanother episode of Bite your
Tongue, the podcast.
I'm Denise and I'm joined by mywonderful co-host, Kirsten
Heckendorf.
I want to pause and let youknow that today's going to be a
very, very special episode.
First, we're thrilled towelcome back my original co-host
, ellen Broughton.
(01:28):
She'll talk about herincredible new book, bright Kids
.
Who Couldn't Care Less?
It's going to be a greatconversation and we'll dive in
shortly, but before we do, Ihave some very personal news I
want to share.
After four amazing seasons withthis podcast, I've been
reflecting quite a bit on thejourney we've taken Over the
(01:49):
years.
We've explored so many topics,spoken with insightful guests
and shared tools to growstronger relationships with our
adult children.
It's been such a rewardingexperience, starting with Ellen
as a co-host and Connie GornFisher, my sister, who dove in
and learned everything there wasto know about audio engineering
(02:10):
.
Connie and I have been throughit for the long haul.
As Ellen stopped to finish herbook, kirsten joined us as a
co-host and we had somewonderful guest hosts along the
way.
It's really been a blast.
But after much thought, I feellike I want to take a pause.
I truly believe that we'vecreated a treasure trove of
episodes that listeners canrevisit and continue to learn
(02:32):
and grow.
As long as I keep the hostingplatform running, those
conversations, those interviews,those episodes will be there
for all of you to enjoy.
Now, I'll admit it's a bitemotional, as I share this,
because when I started thispodcast I never imagined it
would take off like it has.
To see it resonate with so manypeople is so humbling To see
(02:55):
listeners tuning in from nearly2,000 cities across the US and
53 countries, even as far awayas Nicaragua, vietnam and even
the Ukraine.
I want to express my deepestgratitude to all of you.
Thank you for listening andparticularly thank you to all of
you who have donated to helpkeep us afloat.
(03:16):
You have no idea how much it'smeant.
Thank you for supporting us andbelieving in our work.
I also want to take a minuteand thank my own adult children.
Your support has beeneverything to me.
The podcast was not just apassion project of mine, but
it's made me a better parent tomy children as we navigate this
(03:37):
next stage of life together.
Thank you, katie and Charlie.
So what's next?
Honestly, I'm just not sure.
I'm definitely going to drop anepisode here or there if
something really sparks myinterest, or if I get a guest, a
great guest, a great interviewthat I really want to share, but
there won't be a set scheduleand I won't have a co-host, or
(03:58):
maybe down the road I'llreimagine the entire podcast and
something new will pop up.
So for now, I'm just urging youto stay subscribed.
You'll never know when apodcast is dropped if you don't
stay subscribed.
Kirsten, thank you for beingsuch a fantastic partner this
past year.
It's been an incredible journeyand I'm so grateful to have
shared it with you and Ellen.
(04:19):
I can't thank you enough forsaying yes, when I called you in
the midst of COVID and saidlet's do this podcast.
And, connie, there aren'tenough words for Connie Gorn
Fisher, because none of youreally know the work she has put
into this.
I am so grateful for all thatyou have given, all that you
have learned and all that youhave done to make us sound as
professional as possible.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Oh, Denise, that's so nice.
Thank you so much, denise.
This has been an amazingexperience and I've learned so
much along the way, and when youstarted this podcast, no one
was talking about ourrelationships with our adult
kids.
Now people are talking about itand they're writing about it,
and that is great for all of us.
You should be very proud of thework that you have done, and
you too, ellen.
I mean, this is a remarkabletopic to be talking about.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Denise, when you started this podcast, nobody was
talking about how to parent ouradult children.
You are really a trailblazerand the conversations you've had
have expanded the entire rangeof all the ways we could think
about raising our kids from kidswho are really having
difficulties to planning theirweddings, to how to be when they
are having their children.
(05:27):
So you've just given so manypeople so much great information
and I hope this isn't the endfor you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Let's stop talking about ourselves and let's get
started.
Listeners, if you were with meat the very beginning, you'll
remember Ellen was my originalco-host and she couldn't join me
for several episodes becauseshe was focused on writing her
book.
Well, that book is finally here.
And, by the way, sherylSandberg you guys all know
(05:53):
Sheryl Sandberg from Facebook.
I guess she's not at Facebookanymore, but she wrote the intro
Loves Ellen's work, ellen'sbook.
It's a huge success.
And the book is called BrightKids.
Who Couldn't Care Less?
And it's really all aboutrekindling your child's emotion.
She shares tools that workswonders for any age group, and
you know all of us as parents ofadult children many of us
(06:16):
wonder are our kids living up towho they really are, to their
potential?
Or maybe we're just looking atit through our own expectation?
That's the heart of theconversation, and first I'm
going to tell you a little bitmore about Ellen.
I first met Ellen literallyover 35 years ago in Denver.
She was pregnant with Hannahand I had just given birth to my
(06:36):
first child, and she was amusic teacher.
She was teaching music.
She was very talented, but Ihad no idea the depth of who she
was or would become.
And today she's a leadingpsychologist, researcher,
speaker and author.
She's the executive director ofthe learning and emotional
assessment program called LEAPat Mass General Hospital, where
she's worked since 1998.
(06:58):
She holds the Kessler FamilyChair in Pediatric
Neuropsychological assessment.
On top of that, she's anassociate professor at Harvard
Medical School.
Her book is really making waves.
Her advice couldn't be moretimely.
Many of us know how thepandemic dimmed the motivation
and spark in young adults andyoung children.
(07:20):
Schools are saying so many kidsare so behind.
Ellen's here to share practicaltips and insights and help us
learn to reignite that fire.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
This is so great.
Denise and Ellen, we actuallyhaven't formally met.
I've only met you virtually.
Now this is the second time.
I did love the explanation ofthe book that was on the cover,
and so I'm going to read that.
I think that'll help ourlisteners.
Dr Bratton helps you understandthe myriad biological,
psychological and social factorsthat affect motivation and get
to know your own child's uniquestrengths, weaknesses and
(07:55):
personality traits better, gainvital tools for tackling the
motivational problems that areso pervasive today, and build a
plan to boost your child'sconfidence and engagement in
life.
We can't wait to get started.
So let's go and, ellen, welcometo your own podcast, welcome
back.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
It's fun to be here, so we always ask our guests is
there anything we missed in yourintroduction that you want to
share before we get to the nittygritty?
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Just reinforcing my lifelong friendship with Denise.
She's the sort of friend who'sthere through thick and thin,
and we've really learned how toparent together.
To be honest, you are my friendtoo.
We went through every singlestage.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Ellen's a grandmother before I am.
Well, nobody knows.
I guess I should say mydaughter's pregnant.
She's due in April with alittle boy, and again I'm going
to lean on Ellen for advice andthe journey along the way.
So we're very excited aboutthat.
All right let's get to the meathere.
Okay, tell us about your book,and why do you think it's
garnering so much attentionright now?
(08:53):
Do you think it's the timing,the topic, what do you think is?
Is making it so popular.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So when I went to write this book, I you know I'm
a child psychologist and I writeabout what it is that I'm
seeing in my office, and one ofthe things I was seeing a lot of
in 2017, 2018, were just lotsof kids who had no discernible
diagnosis.
They weren't severely depressedor anxious or learning to say.
They just had a case of sort oflike the blahs, basically, and
(09:20):
parents would come in and saythey just don't do anything,
they don't seem to have anyinterest, and so I thought, well
, this might be an interestingthing to look at.
Motivation, like what ismotivation?
What's causing kids to not bemotivated?
And then, as I was starting thebook, the pandemic happened and
what I thought would be just abook for a very small group of
parents who had troubled kidsand I'm not using that term
(09:41):
pejoratively, you know, kids whoare like parents, were troubled
about their kids just reallysort of became a much bigger
topic because we all werefeeling unmotivated.
And I might still say a lot ofus are kind of starting or
trying to figure out where weare in terms of what our life
course is and where we want togo, regardless of our age.
So the book is definitelywritten for parents of kids who
(10:03):
are elementary school, highschool, into young adulthood,
but it really expands a littlebit beyond that, because
motivation is something we haveto keep on the forefront of our
lives, because it is what helpsus do what we want to do in our
lives, and without motivation wedon't really have a lot of
direction in our lives and evena lot of pleasure too.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
What are some of the strategies or concerns parents
of young adults might thinkabout?
When do they get concerned?
I was in the grocery store theother day and you know how I
talk to everybody.
I'm talking to this woman andshe's got all these holiday
things she's buying.
She says, yeah, I have threeadult kids.
Two of them have gone off.
They're doing great.
One of them have gone off.
They're doing great.
One of them went off, came backsaid she was going to do X, y
(10:47):
and Z and nothing's happening.
And I can't figure out.
Is it lack of motivation?
Is she scared?
What would a parent like thatthink about?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
in those situations.
It's so interesting that yousaid this because as I was
thinking about the podcast today, I was thinking do I really
have anything to say aboutadulthood and parenting young
adults?
And the thing that popped in mymind is that the kids that we
tend to have trouble with arethe ones who don't seem to be as
motivated as we'd like.
So either now, in the presentor, I think, as parents, we
(11:19):
continue to have difficultieswith the child who wasn't
motivated early on in their life, in high school, in middle
school.
There's a lot of unfinishedbusiness.
So, first of all, parents needto think about and identify what
does that actually mean thatthey're not going in the right
direction?
One of the first things youwant to do is say well, what are
the behaviors that they'reshowing that show me that
(11:41):
they're unmotivated?
You want to identify thatbecause if you don't really know
what you're talking about, itcan just feel overwhelming and
very anxiety provoking.
As parents, we love to see ourkids headed in the right
direction.
They're going off to college,they have this kind of job.
We get super anxious when ourkids seem to be spinning their
wheels, forgetting that that'skind of part of life.
(12:03):
So the one thing you want to dois define what that means, and
the other thing that I talkabout in the book are three
different areas that can help usget refocused when we feel like
we've lost motivation, or ourkids have.
And that's looking at ouraptitudes, the things that give
us pleasure and the things wetend to practice.
We call it aptitude, practiceand pleasure, but we as parents
(12:26):
have a lot to do with that, sowe can get in the way of what
gives our child pleasure.
That happens a lot easier whenour children are younger.
So, for example, our kids wantto be on the chess club, but we
want them to play baseball, andbaseball is what they do, and
what happens is they losemotivation for everything if we
(12:46):
drive them in that direction.
We can do the same sort ofthing when we're parenting young
adults.
Oh no, you're not taking thatjob, you're taking this job or
you've decided to take some timeoff.
Those are the sorts of thingsthat we need to pay attention to
, because it really saps otherpeople's motivation, and it
means so much when it comes froma parent, so so much more than
(13:09):
when a friend says that.
So we have to be aware of whatit is that we're talking about
and what kind of messages we'resending.
And, on the other hand, we canthink about our child and what
are they pretty good at.
What can I encourage them to do?
Because I think this is whatgives them pleasure or what
doesn't.
You can engage in thoseconversations.
You may be right or you may bewrong, so that is where I would
(13:30):
start.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
With a parent like that, I have two questions about
this, okay.
One is do you think a youngerchild in high school, middle
school, that's not able tomotivate it continues through
adulthood typically.
Or maybe they've peaked in highschool and then they go
downhill afterwards.
What do you see typically?
Speaker 1 (13:49):
as the trajectory.
I think both of those thingscan happen.
What really is?
We just have to find our peopleand our place.
That's what I'm talking about,that aptitude, practice and
pleasure.
If you think of those things aslike a Venn diagram, where we
want to be is in the middle ofthat.
We want to do things that we'renaturally good enough at doing.
We want to do things that giveus pleasure and we want to do
things that we like spendingtime doing Like we're a child
(14:12):
who's very unmotivated in highschool, but they go out into a
career immediately that theylove.
They are immediately motivated.
And I even find that in highschool, students who are
completely unmotivated in schoolbut have a part-time job and
they love it, they're up on time, they are thrilled to be there
(14:32):
all the time.
And part of that is the kidshave a lot of pressure these
days and not enoughresponsibility, so meaning that
we put a lot of pressure on thembut we don't give them the
responsibility which makes allof us feel really great.
So even a 15 or 16 year oldfeels great when they're opening
the coffee shop downtown.
Then they're like I amresponsible for this.
(14:53):
That is so much more.
But when we're thinking aboutmotivating a child, we're not
thinking like rah, rah, they'reworking at the ice cream store
this summer.
We're thinking they're takingall AP classes or they're doing
some sort of wonderful camp Forsome kids.
That's the right place to betoo.
So I think back to yourquestion it really depends, and
(15:14):
it really really depends onbeing in the right place that
fits you.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
What does unmotivated kid look like?
Particularly, I'm thinking ofsome specifics here when all of
those things that we typicallygauge their grades their social
life seem to be on track, seemto be fine.
Are there other things besidesthe usual that parents should be
(15:41):
looking at?
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Most kids do look pretty unmotivated, meaning
they're spending lots of time onvideo games, on social media,
unproductively.
But there are those kids whodon't really know.
They're like rudderless.
And so those kids who are okaysocially or okay grade-wise, but
don't really have a goal inmind, and they're not okay with
(16:03):
that.
For some kids that's a littlebit okay to sort of say I live
in the moment, but they don'tget a lot of joy from living in
the moment.
I really feel like parents.
Really, they know their gutwhen their child is not doing
well.
What's hard for parents, youknow.
You're thinking like well, I'vegot plenty of friends, they
seem to be okay, but I don'tknow what they're going on to do
(16:23):
.
Sometimes that is a problemwith you and not with them,
meaning that we've got to sortthrough this Everything.
They're telling me everything'sfine, but they're not doing
what I want them to do, andthat's when you can really
discern whether or not.
Okay, no, wait a minute.
There's a problem here thatjust isn't coming out the way it
normally does, or this is aproblem with me and my goals and
(16:46):
expectations.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
We're going to get to more of that too.
I think that's a reallyinteresting point.
I guess I also, as you say,pleasure, aptitude, what were
the three things?
What they practice.
I feel like at 18 years old,when a kid's going off to
college which everyone is saying, everyone doesn't have to go to
college and I know you speak alot about this, ellen.
I'd like to hear a little bitmore about that.
(17:08):
I'm not sure a kid at 18 evenknows really what brings them
pleasure in terms of what theyenjoy doing, particularly when
they really haven't had a job.
Maybe they've babysat, theyhaven't opened the bookstore
downtown, they've basically allof their work has been to please
their teacher or please theirwhatever.
So I think you go off tocollege and then you maybe start
(17:30):
that argument I'm going tomajor in history and the parent
reads three worst majors orcommunications history and I
don't dance or something likethat.
All of that can become anentanglement in the parent and
the kid.
How does the kid work toidentify really what they want
to do at 18 years old?
Speaker 1 (17:45):
So what you want to do and what brings you pleasure
are two different things at age18.
You're right, you really don'tknow what you want to do at 18.
And you know what you shouldn't.
We shouldn't want it.
We shouldn't know what we wantto do at 60, when we're 38,
either.
We really shouldn't.
Life evolves.
Most of us have at least sixcareers over the course of our
lifetime, so we should really befocused on who we are at that
(18:05):
time.
Kids really should know whatbrings them pleasure, though,
and pleasure is not product.
Pleasure is I enjoy fiddling onthe piano, I love to sketch, I
love to run.
If kids don't, really, they'renot able to say I love this, one
of the things to do is to Idon't know how to quite say this
(18:26):
, but to infuse your lives morewith gratefulness.
So to really key into, we tendto be grateful for the things
that give us pleasure, andsometimes being grateful.
And what gives us pleasure ishanging out with your
grandmother.
Sometimes it's doing a gooddeed, or watching somebody's dog
or playing with the dog.
We tend to think about pleasureas I need to be an opera singer
(18:48):
when, when we're 18, it can belike I love just hanging out
with my dog.
Well, that's a great place tostart.
What we tend to do as parents,though, I think, is like you
could be a vet.
You could be a vet, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Oh, that's right.
Oh, you love animals, youshould be a vet.
Oh, you're argumentative, youshould be a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Exactly.
We have to step back and justsay you know, we're playing with
the dog, how could you get tospend more time with that?
We just need to take these inincremental doses and then spend
more time listening to them andwatching them, as opposed to
giving them advice, which we allwant to do.
I mean, it's just it's ournature as parents to want to do
(19:28):
that and it's so hard to stepback.
But you're right, a lot of kidsaren't really good gauges of
their own pleasure because we'renot as parents.
We don't give good examples ofwhat it means to spend time
doing things we just love to do.
It could be cooking, it couldbe reading, it can be working
even too.
But they need to see us livinglives that are more in line and
(19:51):
in sync with what we love doing,and that's how they learn that.
I think as mothers, we areoftentimes terrible at it.
What's the thing that goes?
It's the stuff we love doing,and it's hard for us to get back
into it.
But that's what's wonderfulabout this time in our lives is
we can do some of that, and it'snever too late for us to be
(20:13):
that kind of example for ourkids.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
You're absolutely right.
When a parent of an adult kidnotices some of the things
you're saying the lack of caringthe daughter that comes home
had these great goals that shewas going to do, but the mother
said she hasn't done anythingshe came home intending to do.
How do you start theconversation?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I think one of the things to do is just say how
you're feeling and what you'reobserving and stick with that.
So to say, I'm going to tellyou I'm feeling anxious about
this.
You came home, you had all ofthese goals and I'm feeling
anxious because I don't knowwhat's happening.
Help me understand this andkeeping it away from I can't
believe.
You got home and all you'vedone is this and this.
So, starting the conversationwith what's going on for you,
(20:53):
without catastrophizing it too,without saying are you ever
going to leave?
Maybe the child is a perfectlygreat goaler.
You know what?
I'm just hanging out till thefirst of the year because I'm
not going to find a job beforethen, so I just want to enjoy
myself.
All right, great, that helps me.
Now I'm not.
I don't feel as anxious.
What can you tell me about thebeginning of the year then?
What should I be looking for,so that I don't get on your back
(21:15):
about this?
So again, it's a lot about me,what I'm feeling and me.
And to even say things likemaybe I'm just overreacting here
too.
Help me understand this so Ican handle my own fears.
That's the best way to get intothat.
Sometimes, kids are super eagerto say I don't know what's going
(21:36):
on either and I don't know whatto do, mom, and I don't know
where to start.
That's when you can start tosay well, you know, what is it
that you want to do?
You can give them feedback.
You know a lot about yourchild's aptitudes.
You can remember when they werefive.
So if they want to do some kindof total change in their career
and all of a sudden you're likewell, of course you'd like that
.
You loved writing when you werein middle school and I can see
why you want to go back and getan MFA or something like that,
(22:00):
or teach English out of the blueThousands of things this could
be.
You've got that insight and youcan do the conversation in a
way that you're putting outhypotheses about what you think
without telling them this is whothey are, because nobody wants
to be told who they are, even ifyou really know as a parent.
Do you know what I mean?
(22:21):
In a lot of ways, they don'tchange that much since.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
So yeah, I'm in this track of okay, how do we become
more flexible when we're seeingthis stuff kind of evolving?
Well, I guess part of it's justbiting your tongue, so to speak
.
Right, because it can be reallypainful for us.
Where does flexibility comeinto this?
Speaker 1 (22:43):
You know, one of the things we have to do is know
ourselves better, and we are ona lifelong discovery, just as
they are.
And sometimes these sorts ofideas about who our child should
be is unfinished business forourselves, or things like I went
to college, I paid my waythrough college, I was the first
one in my family you're goingto college too, because aren't
(23:05):
you so lucky, as opposed tolistening to what they're
telling us about what they wantto do after high school.
So sometimes it's our own stuff, like oh, I always wanted to be
a writer, so you can be thatEnglish major.
And they're like I don't wantto be an English major, I want
to study coding and just get ajob.
And so we have to understandwho we are.
What's our unfinished business?
(23:26):
What are the things that weexpect them to be?
Because we have theseexpectations like you're so
lucky, why would you give upthis chance and all of those
sorts of things that are aboutus?
And actually that's anopportunity for us at any age to
be able to say wait a minute,I've got unfinished business
that it's not too late to dosomething about.
I can take that writing class,learn that instrument, play golf
(23:50):
, whatever it is that we wished.
We didn't do that we want tosee our kids do, because we want
that loop.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
You're a great example of that, ellen.
You do so many things, fromwriting to so many things to
fulfill some of your dreams fromearlier years.
But when you brought this up,looking at yourself, you have a
whole chapter on the importanceof looking in the mirror and
adjusting your parenting style.
You also talk aboutexpectations, and we've talked a
little bit about that.
But is there anything more?
Because almost every episodewe've done, they always say look
(24:20):
at yourself.
We're always saying why isn'tthe kid doing this, why isn't
the kid doing that?
Before we step back and say,okay, what am I doing to
contribute to this?
Do my expectations have tochange?
Is there anything else you wantto say?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
on that.
Well, one thing I could talkabout is college, but even
before I get there, all thepeople who have been on your
podcast I know a lot of it is isreally that's the only thing we
can change.
We can't make our children besomebody other than who they
want to be and in fact, when wetry to do that, it fails
miserably.
It's the worst.
So that's why it's not becauseit's our fault, but because it's
(24:53):
all we've got.
One of the things I do talk alot about in the book and I
don't know if this reallyapplies as much to your
listeners because their kids area bit older but I do feel like
college is one of those areaswhere we put incredible
expectations on kids to be thisexact sort of 18, 19, and
(25:13):
20-year-old.
And I find that kids even asearly as 11 and 12, look ahead
and they're like I'm not good atschool, I don't like school, I
don't want to do college.
And instead of having thoseconversations with your child
which, I have to say, as aparent, I did not have with one
of my kids we just are like no,you're going to do this, we're
going to get you more tutors,we're going to different school,
(25:35):
we'll get the applications,we'll find the right kind of
colleges, or just like that, asopposed to just listening and
saying, okay, this isn't yourpath, what do we want to do
instead?
And let's do this thoughtfullyand in a good way, and I think
that is changing.
You mentioned that at thebeginning.
That's kind of changing and Ithink that's a wonderful
(25:56):
development.
And I'm not saying that noteverybody needs to go to college
or not.
I think kids who want to go tocollege should and we should
encourage them, but kids whodon't, we need to give them
other ways of becoming an adult.
I've had parents say they'vecried in my office saying I
can't be the only parent atgraduation for high school and
my child's not going to college,like I just can't do it.
(26:16):
He's going to have to justapply somewhere so that I can
say that, even if he doesn't go.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Isn't that terrible.
So that's about the parentright, and it's society too.
It's you know, it's Well you'reright, but that's about how the
parent feels about society, thepressures they feel whenever
your child's failing, and what Iwas going to say to that, too,
is we need to make not going tocollege a great thing too, that
(26:41):
everyone has different paths.
If you learn that trade, you'reheading to the top I think,
every profession, whatever youfind your passion in.
But there's a lot of things,and not only that they're
earning money earlier and savingmoney earlier, so they might be
on a better track.
We have to talk more about thatin a positive way.
And you know, ellen, eventhough you said, this might not
be for our listeners, becauseours are a little older, doesn't
(27:03):
matter what the age is, theycan finish college and say that
just wasn't for me, and I thinka lot of the parents who
struggle with their young adultchildren either.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
They were young adults who went to college,
barely made it through.
There are lots of kids likethat who went to any college USA
that would take, got through,aren't really that employable
because they didn't find thatbliss in college.
They don't know what makes themhappy.
College was actually not a goodplace to find that.
College was actually not a goodplace to find that.
(27:34):
So a lot of those kids thatyou're even describing, the
person that you met in thegrocery store might be one of
those kids who, yeah, she gotthrough college, yay, but she's
not a teacher, she's not a nurse, she's not going to law school.
Sometimes you find that the 23-,24 27-year-olds are still
trying to figure out what theywant to do, even though they
graduated from college and thenhave phones to pay too.
(27:54):
So you're right, we've got toreally be thoughtful about
giving kids lots of choices forthings to do, and even working
in a store, working atNordstrom's right out of high
school is fine.
You love fashion?
Start there, absolutely, youknow, work your way up.
We are desperate for managerswho can, who have been in the
(28:16):
trenches.
So there's lots of ways to dothis.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
There is some sort of mindset that everyone's going
to be CEO when they graduate ormake 200,000, whatever.
I think a lot of it depends onwhat environment you're in.
I mean, I'm sure all of youread this article in the New
York Times.
It just made me gasp.
Some young man that went to anIvy league school has started
this.
They're starting prepping kidsfor Ivy league schools at 11
(28:43):
years old and this guy chargeslike two $300,000 to find their
thing they're most passionateabout make sure they really
excel.
Make sure.
And I'm thinking to myself, ohmy gosh, what are we doing?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
No, and it's the wrong thing.
So when we're talking aboutpleasure and passion, those
things are not the same thing,especially what he's asking them
to do, which is a lot of thingsthat check boxes.
That's how we find our pleasure.
Our pleasure is oftentimesfound because we've got to find
something else to do.
So we pick up, like our dad'sold bass guitar, or we start
(29:17):
hitting the tennis ball againstthe garage or those sorts of
things, or we go and mow lawns,do something, Because when I was
a kid, if you had nothing to do, you had to make yourself
useful, and I'm sure it was thesame way for both of you.
We had to figure out well, I'mgoing to do something useful, I
might as well be something I cando, and then I kind of like
doing, and that was the start offinding that kids don't have
(29:39):
those opportunities anymore,especially not if they're
checking off all these boxes onsomeone's list.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
You said something earlier about we change careers
like six times.
There's something in thatlittle nugget there, because one
of the things I also don'tthink young adults have right
now is this idea that you can doanything you want to do.
You can change your career.
There can be multiple parts ofyou to your point where you can
(30:05):
be an artist and you can bewhatever, whatever.
How do you instill that from ayoung age, that we are all of
those things, not just the onething that we went to college
for or the one thing we gottraining in that makes us money?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I think it's unteaching kids that whole idea
that we need to immerseourselves in our careers and a
lot of us in our generationreally did that, so we weren't
necessarily great role modelsfor that.
We have to reteach them or givethem different kinds of
examples of how to live lives,and the thing that they don't
(30:41):
get when they're in high schoolis they just so many kids.
It's just high school 24-7.
It's study, study, study.
Don't even do chores at home.
We don't want to interfere withyour ability to study for that
test.
I'll do everything for you.
And it's crazy.
We're teaching them the oppositeof what you just suggested,
which is life is a puzzle and weput pieces in the puzzle and
(31:04):
many people who are artists sayI just want to work as a
waitress because when I get offI don't have emails to return.
I can just be an artist.
So we've got to be able to givethem this idea that life is
much more of a puzzle or apainting that we're constantly
putting into place and changingaround.
It's a hard thing to do, but Ithink having discussions about
(31:26):
that and again centering itaround what are the things that
we really care about that giveus pleasure, that we're grateful
for.
That's really the heart of this.
Just in our society we're notvery good at really
understanding that pleasure.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I love this whole gratefulness thing and I think
that's something that we allmiss and we all forget because
there's so much to be gratefulfor.
Ellen, the last part of yourbook is when you need extra help
.
When should we be concernedabout our adult children, and
what can we do when we find thiskid with great potential
doesn't give care?
Speaker 1 (31:58):
at all.
So the things to really lookfor are an absence of
friendships, an absence of doingthings that give them pleasure
in their free time and notholding a job.
Those are the things thatreally get in the way of life.
And, as we're looking atsuccessful adults, they have
jobs.
They have relationships thatare sustaining to them and
(32:19):
satisfying to them.
Now you have to look at yourchild.
For some people that means lotsof friendships.
For others that can just be apartnership with one person and
a couple of friends in theirfamily, so be able to know your
child and whether or not that'sappropriate for them.
But when they're chronicallyhaving issues, chronically
depressed, unable to hold a job,unable to be successful in
(32:43):
relationships, that's when, morethan one of those two, you can
have a child who just hastrouble with a long-term
partnership.
For example, yes, therapy canhelp that, talking therapy can
help that, talking to people canhelp that.
But when you really want to beworried when two out of those
three things are not going welland we do miss, sometimes
significant mental health issuesin our young adults, thinking
(33:08):
that they just don't care,they've never cared, when in
many cases and I know you'vetalked about this on many shows
that mid-20s is a huge time whenmental health issues show up,
and very significant mentalhealth issues like thought
disorders, schizophrenia.
(33:28):
So we can miss those thinkingthat if he'd just get a job he'd
be fine, as opposed to maybe hedoesn't have a job, maybe we
haven't heard from him in threemonths, because there's
something bigger going on.
And consult a professional, ifyou think that's what's
happening, so that you can getsome clarity on that.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And you think the professional can help you learn
to say, to know what to say tothem, because that's hard to
approach a kid that's beencompletely thriving and all of a
sudden they're in their earlytwenties and something shakes
and you feel like they need somehelp.
There's ways to approach it and, I'm sure, ways not to.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, I think the more information the better,
because the hardest thing whenyou've got a child who's not
successfully negotiatingadulthood especially in those
years, those 20s, which I thinkis such a hard age group it's so
hard, it's very easy to getcaught up in that mindset that
I'm going to limit set with thischild Again.
I know you've had podcasts onthis.
(34:24):
I've listened to them.
We also have to keep that inmind.
It's not like there is a onesize fits all.
All of these things areimportant in terms of our
toolbox as parents.
So you want to make sure youget a lot of information about
that and I really do think thatmost good psychologists,
psychiatrists, could give yousome good information about what
(34:46):
you've seen if they have enoughinformation from you about what
the child has been like.
So a child has done well, goneto Ivy League school, and all of
a sudden in mid-20s they'reonline, being radicalized with
some cause.
That's cause for concern.
That's not a normal transitioninto adulthood, especially when
it's not been part of theirchildhood at all.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
So right?
Well, Ellen, this is hard forme to say, but we always ask our
guests for two takeaways.
I'd love you to offer twotakeaways.
This has been wonderful.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Okay, one of the things I was thinking about with
this is we put so much guilt onourselves as parents for not
doing things right when theywere little.
We can do things pretty badlywhen they're older too.
A mom can say something to achild like just something awful
to them.
I've heard lots of my friendssay my mother said on our
deathbed this or that, and soit's good for us to keep in mind
(35:40):
that parenting and this is sortof the whole point of your
podcast, but parenting isn'tover.
Like we are still parenting,like we have a chance to correct
all those things that we wentwhy didn't we do that?
And we can say these things toour kids in a way that's so
(36:00):
healing to them and to us too,because half the time it was
worse on us than it was on them,to be honest but that the
things we're doing now areactually parenting them.
They are not totally formed,and neither are we, and so we
can really continue to learn tobe great parents throughout our
lives, no matter how we started,no matter what kind of ways we
fumbled.
So that's one thing.
Just remember that.
(36:21):
And the other thing is getyourself a friend like Denise,
and if you don't have a Denisein your life, go find one,
because there are lots ofparents out there who wish they
had another parent who could bethere and say no, you didn't
screw up, you did a good job andyour kids are doing great and I
love you and them too, andthat's what everybody needs in
(36:43):
their lives.
Seriously, we all need support.
This is a communal activity.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
We all do need support.
You're right, I just loved whatyou said.
Initially we all thought 18, wewere done.
Get them into a good college,you're done.
The impact we have and again,we've said this in every episode
it's our longest relationshipwith these kids.
It's our time to reflect onsome of the things we may have
not done great and making up forsome of that and, most
(37:09):
important, accept them for whothey are.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Ellen, thank you for having me.
I've really enjoyed this andI'm going to miss seeing you in
this arena.
At least for now, we'll seewhat happens.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Ellen, thank you again so much for being with us
today.
It's always a greatconversation.
I really appreciate it.
Yeah, we all do.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Okay, guys, it's bittersweet saying goodbye this
time Again.
We'll not be back on a regularschedule and episodes may drop
when I read something, findsomeone who we can talk to and
want to explore again.
But as the founder of thepodcast, I'm going to go it
alone and I'm going to do what Ithink is best for the listeners
, but we can't thank you allenough for listening, supporting
us and coming on this journeywith us.
(37:52):
Finally, I want to thank Connie, ellen and Kirsten for taking
this journey with me.
You added so much and made it alot more fun to do this on a
regular basis.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
So thank you, denise, you're welcome and thank you so
much for having me, and I thinkyou really said it the best,
and we are so grateful to all ofthe listeners and hope you have
taken away some amazing nuggetsto help you continue to develop
healthy relationships with youradult children.
These episodes aren't goinganywhere, so please check back
whenever you want.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
And still consider.
If you have a great idea, sendit to me at
biteyourtonguepodcast atgmailcom.
I still like to get your ideasand we'll decide what to do.
Remember to stay subscribedbecause we'll continue to have
the podcast episodes up therelive as long as I continue to
pay for our hosting platform.
Follow us on social media.
I might be posting now and then, but I have to say the greatest
(38:45):
relief for me, to be honestwith you, is not having to be on
social media.
It seems that it's altered ourworld and we've seen that a lot
through these interviews.
Thank you again, listeners, andif you take anything away from
the last four years, rememberand we're all going to say this
together sometimes you just haveto bite your tongue.
(39:07):
Thank you.
One of the things we have to do is know ourselves
better, and we are on a lifelongdiscovery, just as they are.
Sometimes these sorts of ideasabout who our child should be is
unfinished business forourselves, or things like I went
to college, I paid my waythrough college, I was the first
one in my family.
You're going to college too,because aren't you so lucky, as
(00:23):
opposed to listening to whatthey're telling us about what
they want to do?
So sometimes it's our own stuff, and so we have to understand
who we are.
What's our unfinished business?
What are the things that weexpect them to be?
Because we have theseexpectations.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to Bite your Tongue thepodcast.
I'm Denise.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
And I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will join us as we
explore the ins and outs ofbuilding healthy relationships
with our adult children.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Together.
We'll speak with experts, shareheartfelt stories and get
timely advice addressing topicsthat matter most to you.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Get ready to dive deep and learn, to build and
nurture deep connections withour adult children and, of
course, when, to bite ourtongues.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
So let's get started.
Hello everyone and welcome toanother episode of Bite your
Tongue, the podcast.
I'm Denise and I'm joined by mywonderful co-host, Kirsten
Heckendorf.
I want to pause and let youknow that today's going to be a
very, very special episode.
First, we're thrilled towelcome back my original co-host
, ellen Broughton.
(01:28):
She'll talk about herincredible new book, bright Kids
.
Who Couldn't Care Less?
It's going to be a greatconversation and we'll dive in
shortly, but before we do, Ihave some very personal news I
want to share.
After four amazing seasons withthis podcast, I've been
reflecting quite a bit on thejourney we've taken Over the
(01:49):
years.
We've explored so many topics,spoken with insightful guests
and shared tools to growstronger relationships with our
adult children.
It's been such a rewardingexperience, starting with Ellen
as a co-host and Connie GornFisher, my sister, who dove in
and learned everything there wasto know about audio engineering
(02:10):
.
Connie and I have been throughit for the long haul.
As Ellen stopped to finish herbook, kirsten joined us as a
co-host and we had somewonderful guest hosts along the
way.
It's really been a blast.
But after much thought, I feellike I want to take a pause.
I truly believe that we'vecreated a treasure trove of
episodes that listeners canrevisit and continue to learn
(02:32):
and grow.
As long as I keep the hostingplatform running, those
conversations, those interviews,those episodes will be there
for all of you to enjoy.
Now, I'll admit it's a bitemotional, as I share this,
because when I started thispodcast I never imagined it
would take off like it has.
To see it resonate with so manypeople is so humbling To see
(02:55):
listeners tuning in from nearly2,000 cities across the US and
53 countries, even as far awayas Nicaragua, vietnam and even
the Ukraine.
I want to express my deepestgratitude to all of you.
Thank you for listening andparticularly thank you to all of
you who have donated to helpkeep us afloat.
(03:16):
You have no idea how much it'smeant.
Thank you for supporting us andbelieving in our work.
I also want to take a minuteand thank my own adult children.
Your support has beeneverything to me.
The podcast was not just apassion project of mine, but
it's made me a better parent tomy children as we navigate this
(03:37):
next stage of life together.
Thank you, katie and Charlie.
So what's next?
Honestly, I'm just not sure.
I'm definitely going to drop anepisode here or there if
something really sparks myinterest, or if I get a guest, a
great guest, a great interviewthat I really want to share, but
there won't be a set scheduleand I won't have a co-host, or
(03:58):
maybe down the road I'llreimagine the entire podcast and
something new will pop up.
So for now, I'm just urging youto stay subscribed.
You'll never know when apodcast is dropped if you don't
stay subscribed.
Kirsten, thank you for beingsuch a fantastic partner this
past year.
It's been an incredible journeyand I'm so grateful to have
shared it with you and Ellen.
(04:19):
I can't thank you enough forsaying yes, when I called you in
the midst of COVID and saidlet's do this podcast.
And, connie, there aren'tenough words for Connie Gorn
Fisher, because none of youreally know the work she has put
into this.
I am so grateful for all thatyou have given, all that you
have learned and all that youhave done to make us sound as
professional as possible.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Oh, Denise, that's so nice.
Thank you so much, denise.
This has been an amazingexperience and I've learned so
much along the way, and when youstarted this podcast, no one
was talking about ourrelationships with our adult
kids.
Now people are talking about itand they're writing about it,
and that is great for all of us.
You should be very proud of thework that you have done, and
you too, ellen.
I mean, this is a remarkabletopic to be talking about.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Denise, when you started this podcast, nobody was
talking about how to parent ouradult children.
You are really a trailblazerand the conversations you've had
have expanded the entire rangeof all the ways we could think
about raising our kids from kidswho are really having
difficulties to planning theirweddings, to how to be when they
are having their children.
(05:27):
So you've just given so manypeople so much great information
and I hope this isn't the endfor you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Let's stop talking about ourselves and let's get
started.
Listeners, if you were with meat the very beginning, you'll
remember Ellen was my originalco-host and she couldn't join me
for several episodes becauseshe was focused on writing her
book.
Well, that book is finally here.
And, by the way, sherylSandberg you guys all know
(05:53):
Sheryl Sandberg from Facebook.
I guess she's not at Facebookanymore, but she wrote the intro
Loves Ellen's work, ellen'sbook.
It's a huge success.
And the book is called BrightKids.
Who Couldn't Care Less?
And it's really all aboutrekindling your child's emotion.
She shares tools that workswonders for any age group, and
you know all of us as parents ofadult children many of us
(06:16):
wonder are our kids living up towho they really are, to their
potential?
Or maybe we're just looking atit through our own expectation?
That's the heart of theconversation, and first I'm
going to tell you a little bitmore about Ellen.
I first met Ellen literallyover 35 years ago in Denver.
She was pregnant with Hannahand I had just given birth to my
(06:36):
first child, and she was amusic teacher.
She was teaching music.
She was very talented, but Ihad no idea the depth of who she
was or would become.
And today she's a leadingpsychologist, researcher,
speaker and author.
She's the executive director ofthe learning and emotional
assessment program called LEAPat Mass General Hospital, where
she's worked since 1998.
(06:58):
She holds the Kessler FamilyChair in Pediatric
Neuropsychological assessment.
On top of that, she's anassociate professor at Harvard
Medical School.
Her book is really making waves.
Her advice couldn't be moretimely.
Many of us know how thepandemic dimmed the motivation
and spark in young adults andyoung children.
(07:20):
Schools are saying so many kidsare so behind.
Ellen's here to share practicaltips and insights and help us
learn to reignite that fire.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
This is so great.
Denise and Ellen, we actuallyhaven't formally met.
I've only met you virtually.
Now this is the second time.
I did love the explanation ofthe book that was on the cover,
and so I'm going to read that.
I think that'll help ourlisteners.
Dr Bratton helps you understandthe myriad biological,
psychological and social factorsthat affect motivation and get
to know your own child's uniquestrengths, weaknesses and
(07:55):
personality traits better, gainvital tools for tackling the
motivational problems that areso pervasive today, and build a
plan to boost your child'sconfidence and engagement in
life.
We can't wait to get started.
So let's go and, ellen, welcometo your own podcast, welcome
back.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
It's fun to be here, so we always ask our guests is
there anything we missed in yourintroduction that you want to
share before we get to the nittygritty?
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Just reinforcing my lifelong friendship with Denise.
She's the sort of friend who'sthere through thick and thin,
and we've really learned how toparent together.
To be honest, you are my friendtoo.
We went through every singlestage.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Ellen's a grandmother before I am.
Well, nobody knows.
I guess I should say mydaughter's pregnant.
She's due in April with alittle boy, and again I'm going
to lean on Ellen for advice andthe journey along the way.
So we're very excited aboutthat.
All right let's get to the meathere.
Okay, tell us about your book,and why do you think it's
garnering so much attentionright now?
(08:53):
Do you think it's the timing,the topic, what do you think is?
Is making it so popular.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So when I went to write this book, I you know I'm
a child psychologist and I writeabout what it is that I'm
seeing in my office, and one ofthe things I was seeing a lot of
in 2017, 2018, were just lotsof kids who had no discernible
diagnosis.
They weren't severely depressedor anxious or learning to say.
They just had a case of sort oflike the blahs, basically, and
(09:20):
parents would come in and saythey just don't do anything,
they don't seem to have anyinterest, and so I thought, well
, this might be an interestingthing to look at.
Motivation, like what ismotivation?
What's causing kids to not bemotivated?
And then, as I was starting thebook, the pandemic happened and
what I thought would be just abook for a very small group of
parents who had troubled kidsand I'm not using that term
(09:41):
pejoratively, you know, kids whoare like parents, were troubled
about their kids just reallysort of became a much bigger
topic because we all werefeeling unmotivated.
And I might still say a lot ofus are kind of starting or
trying to figure out where weare in terms of what our life
course is and where we want togo, regardless of our age.
So the book is definitelywritten for parents of kids who
(10:03):
are elementary school, highschool, into young adulthood,
but it really expands a littlebit beyond that, because
motivation is something we haveto keep on the forefront of our
lives, because it is what helpsus do what we want to do in our
lives, and without motivation wedon't really have a lot of
direction in our lives and evena lot of pleasure too.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
What are some of the strategies or concerns parents
of young adults might thinkabout?
When do they get concerned?
I was in the grocery store theother day and you know how I
talk to everybody.
I'm talking to this woman andshe's got all these holiday
things she's buying.
She says, yeah, I have threeadult kids.
Two of them have gone off.
They're doing great.
One of them have gone off.
They're doing great.
One of them went off, came backsaid she was going to do X, y
(10:47):
and Z and nothing's happening.
And I can't figure out.
Is it lack of motivation?
Is she scared?
What would a parent like thatthink about?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
in those situations.
It's so interesting that yousaid this because as I was
thinking about the podcast today, I was thinking do I really
have anything to say aboutadulthood and parenting young
adults?
And the thing that popped in mymind is that the kids that we
tend to have trouble with arethe ones who don't seem to be as
motivated as we'd like.
So either now, in the presentor, I think, as parents, we
(11:19):
continue to have difficultieswith the child who wasn't
motivated early on in their life, in high school, in middle
school.
There's a lot of unfinishedbusiness.
So, first of all, parents needto think about and identify what
does that actually mean thatthey're not going in the right
direction?
One of the first things youwant to do is say well, what are
the behaviors that they'reshowing that show me that
(11:41):
they're unmotivated?
You want to identify thatbecause if you don't really know
what you're talking about, itcan just feel overwhelming and
very anxiety provoking.
As parents, we love to see ourkids headed in the right
direction.
They're going off to college,they have this kind of job.
We get super anxious when ourkids seem to be spinning their
wheels, forgetting that that'skind of part of life.
(12:03):
So the one thing you want to dois define what that means, and
the other thing that I talkabout in the book are three
different areas that can help usget refocused when we feel like
we've lost motivation, or ourkids have.
And that's looking at ouraptitudes, the things that give
us pleasure and the things wetend to practice.
We call it aptitude, practiceand pleasure, but we as parents
(12:26):
have a lot to do with that, sowe can get in the way of what
gives our child pleasure.
That happens a lot easier whenour children are younger.
So, for example, our kids wantto be on the chess club, but we
want them to play baseball, andbaseball is what they do, and
what happens is they losemotivation for everything if we
(12:46):
drive them in that direction.
We can do the same sort ofthing when we're parenting young
adults.
Oh no, you're not taking thatjob, you're taking this job or
you've decided to take some timeoff.
Those are the sorts of thingsthat we need to pay attention to
, because it really saps otherpeople's motivation, and it
means so much when it comes froma parent, so so much more than
(13:09):
when a friend says that.
So we have to be aware of whatit is that we're talking about
and what kind of messages we'resending.
And, on the other hand, we canthink about our child and what
are they pretty good at.
What can I encourage them to do?
Because I think this is whatgives them pleasure or what
doesn't.
You can engage in thoseconversations.
You may be right or you may bewrong, so that is where I would
(13:30):
start.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
With a parent like that, I have two questions about
this, okay.
One is do you think a youngerchild in high school, middle
school, that's not able tomotivate it continues through
adulthood typically.
Or maybe they've peaked in highschool and then they go
downhill afterwards.
What do you see typically?
Speaker 1 (13:49):
as the trajectory.
I think both of those thingscan happen.
What really is?
We just have to find our peopleand our place.
That's what I'm talking about,that aptitude, practice and
pleasure.
If you think of those things aslike a Venn diagram, where we
want to be is in the middle ofthat.
We want to do things that we'renaturally good enough at doing.
We want to do things that giveus pleasure and we want to do
things that we like spendingtime doing Like we're a child
(14:12):
who's very unmotivated in highschool, but they go out into a
career immediately that theylove.
They are immediately motivated.
And I even find that in highschool, students who are
completely unmotivated in schoolbut have a part-time job and
they love it, they're up on time, they are thrilled to be there
(14:32):
all the time.
And part of that is the kidshave a lot of pressure these
days and not enoughresponsibility, so meaning that
we put a lot of pressure on thembut we don't give them the
responsibility which makes allof us feel really great.
So even a 15 or 16 year oldfeels great when they're opening
the coffee shop downtown.
Then they're like I amresponsible for this.
(14:53):
That is so much more.
But when we're thinking aboutmotivating a child, we're not
thinking like rah, rah, they'reworking at the ice cream store
this summer.
We're thinking they're takingall AP classes or they're doing
some sort of wonderful camp Forsome kids.
That's the right place to betoo.
So I think back to yourquestion it really depends, and
(15:14):
it really really depends onbeing in the right place that
fits you.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
What does unmotivated kid look like?
Particularly, I'm thinking ofsome specifics here when all of
those things that we typicallygauge their grades their social
life seem to be on track, seemto be fine.
Are there other things besidesthe usual that parents should be
(15:41):
looking at?
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Most kids do look pretty unmotivated, meaning
they're spending lots of time onvideo games, on social media,
unproductively.
But there are those kids whodon't really know.
They're like rudderless.
And so those kids who are okaysocially or okay grade-wise, but
don't really have a goal inmind, and they're not okay with
(16:03):
that.
For some kids that's a littlebit okay to sort of say I live
in the moment, but they don'tget a lot of joy from living in
the moment.
I really feel like parents.
Really, they know their gutwhen their child is not doing
well.
What's hard for parents, youknow.
You're thinking like well, I'vegot plenty of friends, they
seem to be okay, but I don'tknow what they're going on to do
(16:23):
.
Sometimes that is a problemwith you and not with them,
meaning that we've got to sortthrough this Everything.
They're telling me everything'sfine, but they're not doing
what I want them to do, andthat's when you can really
discern whether or not.
Okay, no, wait a minute.
There's a problem here thatjust isn't coming out the way it
normally does, or this is aproblem with me and my goals and
(16:46):
expectations.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
We're going to get to more of that too.
I think that's a reallyinteresting point.
I guess I also, as you say,pleasure, aptitude, what were
the three things?
What they practice.
I feel like at 18 years old,when a kid's going off to
college which everyone is saying, everyone doesn't have to go to
college and I know you speak alot about this, ellen.
I'd like to hear a little bitmore about that.
(17:08):
I'm not sure a kid at 18 evenknows really what brings them
pleasure in terms of what theyenjoy doing, particularly when
they really haven't had a job.
Maybe they've babysat, theyhaven't opened the bookstore
downtown, they've basically allof their work has been to please
their teacher or please theirwhatever.
So I think you go off tocollege and then you maybe start
(17:30):
that argument I'm going tomajor in history and the parent
reads three worst majors orcommunications history and I
don't dance or something likethat.
All of that can become anentanglement in the parent and
the kid.
How does the kid work toidentify really what they want
to do at 18 years old?
Speaker 1 (17:45):
So what you want to do and what brings you pleasure
are two different things at age18.
You're right, you really don'tknow what you want to do at 18.
And you know what you shouldn't.
We shouldn't want it.
We shouldn't know what we wantto do at 60, when we're 38,
either.
We really shouldn't.
Life evolves.
Most of us have at least sixcareers over the course of our
lifetime, so we should really befocused on who we are at that
(18:05):
time.
Kids really should know whatbrings them pleasure, though,
and pleasure is not product.
Pleasure is I enjoy fiddling onthe piano, I love to sketch, I
love to run.
If kids don't, really, they'renot able to say I love this, one
of the things to do is to Idon't know how to quite say this
(18:26):
, but to infuse your lives morewith gratefulness.
So to really key into, we tendto be grateful for the things
that give us pleasure, andsometimes being grateful.
And what gives us pleasure ishanging out with your
grandmother.
Sometimes it's doing a gooddeed, or watching somebody's dog
or playing with the dog.
We tend to think about pleasureas I need to be an opera singer
(18:48):
when, when we're 18, it can belike I love just hanging out
with my dog.
Well, that's a great place tostart.
What we tend to do as parents,though, I think, is like you
could be a vet.
You could be a vet, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Oh, that's right.
Oh, you love animals, youshould be a vet.
Oh, you're argumentative, youshould be a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Exactly.
We have to step back and justsay you know, we're playing with
the dog, how could you get tospend more time with that?
We just need to take these inincremental doses and then spend
more time listening to them andwatching them, as opposed to
giving them advice, which we allwant to do.
I mean, it's just it's ournature as parents to want to do
(19:28):
that and it's so hard to stepback.
But you're right, a lot of kidsaren't really good gauges of
their own pleasure because we'renot as parents.
We don't give good examples ofwhat it means to spend time
doing things we just love to do.
It could be cooking, it couldbe reading, it can be working
even too.
But they need to see us livinglives that are more in line and
(19:51):
in sync with what we love doing,and that's how they learn that.
I think as mothers, we areoftentimes terrible at it.
What's the thing that goes?
It's the stuff we love doing,and it's hard for us to get back
into it.
But that's what's wonderfulabout this time in our lives is
we can do some of that, and it'snever too late for us to be
(20:13):
that kind of example for ourkids.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
You're absolutely right.
When a parent of an adult kidnotices some of the things
you're saying the lack of caringthe daughter that comes home
had these great goals that shewas going to do, but the mother
said she hasn't done anythingshe came home intending to do.
How do you start theconversation?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I think one of the things to do is just say how
you're feeling and what you'reobserving and stick with that.
So to say, I'm going to tellyou I'm feeling anxious about
this.
You came home, you had all ofthese goals and I'm feeling
anxious because I don't knowwhat's happening.
Help me understand this andkeeping it away from I can't
believe.
You got home and all you'vedone is this and this.
So, starting the conversationwith what's going on for you,
(20:53):
without catastrophizing it too,without saying are you ever
going to leave?
Maybe the child is a perfectlygreat goaler.
You know what?
I'm just hanging out till thefirst of the year because I'm
not going to find a job beforethen, so I just want to enjoy
myself.
All right, great, that helps me.
Now I'm not.
I don't feel as anxious.
What can you tell me about thebeginning of the year then?
What should I be looking for,so that I don't get on your back
(21:15):
about this?
So again, it's a lot about me,what I'm feeling and me.
And to even say things likemaybe I'm just overreacting here
too.
Help me understand this so Ican handle my own fears.
That's the best way to get intothat.
Sometimes, kids are super eagerto say I don't know what's going
(21:36):
on either and I don't know whatto do, mom, and I don't know
where to start.
That's when you can start tosay well, you know, what is it
that you want to do?
You can give them feedback.
You know a lot about yourchild's aptitudes.
You can remember when they werefive.
So if they want to do some kindof total change in their career
and all of a sudden you're likewell, of course you'd like that
.
You loved writing when you werein middle school and I can see
why you want to go back and getan MFA or something like that,
(22:00):
or teach English out of the blueThousands of things this could
be.
You've got that insight and youcan do the conversation in a
way that you're putting outhypotheses about what you think
without telling them this is whothey are, because nobody wants
to be told who they are, even ifyou really know as a parent.
Do you know what I mean?
(22:21):
In a lot of ways, they don'tchange that much since.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
So yeah, I'm in this track of okay, how do we become
more flexible when we're seeingthis stuff kind of evolving?
Well, I guess part of it's justbiting your tongue, so to speak
.
Right, because it can be reallypainful for us.
Where does flexibility comeinto this?
Speaker 1 (22:43):
You know, one of the things we have to do is know
ourselves better, and we are ona lifelong discovery, just as
they are.
And sometimes these sorts ofideas about who our child should
be is unfinished business forourselves, or things like I went
to college, I paid my waythrough college, I was the first
one in my family you're goingto college too, because aren't
(23:05):
you so lucky, as opposed tolistening to what they're
telling us about what they wantto do after high school.
So sometimes it's our own stuff, like oh, I always wanted to be
a writer, so you can be thatEnglish major.
And they're like I don't wantto be an English major, I want
to study coding and just get ajob.
And so we have to understandwho we are.
What's our unfinished business?
(23:26):
What are the things that weexpect them to be?
Because we have theseexpectations like you're so
lucky, why would you give upthis chance and all of those
sorts of things that are aboutus?
And actually that's anopportunity for us at any age to
be able to say wait a minute,I've got unfinished business
that it's not too late to dosomething about.
I can take that writing class,learn that instrument, play golf
(23:50):
, whatever it is that we wished.
We didn't do that we want tosee our kids do, because we want
that loop.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
You're a great example of that, ellen.
You do so many things, fromwriting to so many things to
fulfill some of your dreams fromearlier years.
But when you brought this up,looking at yourself, you have a
whole chapter on the importanceof looking in the mirror and
adjusting your parenting style.
You also talk aboutexpectations, and we've talked a
little bit about that.
But is there anything more?
Because almost every episodewe've done, they always say look
(24:20):
at yourself.
We're always saying why isn'tthe kid doing this, why isn't
the kid doing that?
Before we step back and say,okay, what am I doing to
contribute to this?
Do my expectations have tochange?
Is there anything else you wantto say?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
on that.
Well, one thing I could talkabout is college, but even
before I get there, all thepeople who have been on your
podcast I know a lot of it is isreally that's the only thing we
can change.
We can't make our children besomebody other than who they
want to be and in fact, when wetry to do that, it fails
miserably.
It's the worst.
So that's why it's not becauseit's our fault, but because it's
(24:53):
all we've got.
One of the things I do talk alot about in the book and I
don't know if this reallyapplies as much to your
listeners because their kids area bit older but I do feel like
college is one of those areaswhere we put incredible
expectations on kids to be thisexact sort of 18, 19, and
(25:13):
20-year-old.
And I find that kids even asearly as 11 and 12, look ahead
and they're like I'm not good atschool, I don't like school, I
don't want to do college.
And instead of having thoseconversations with your child
which, I have to say, as aparent, I did not have with one
of my kids we just are like no,you're going to do this, we're
going to get you more tutors,we're going to different school,
(25:35):
we'll get the applications,we'll find the right kind of
colleges, or just like that, asopposed to just listening and
saying, okay, this isn't yourpath, what do we want to do
instead?
And let's do this thoughtfullyand in a good way, and I think
that is changing.
You mentioned that at thebeginning.
That's kind of changing and Ithink that's a wonderful
(25:56):
development.
And I'm not saying that noteverybody needs to go to college
or not.
I think kids who want to go tocollege should and we should
encourage them, but kids whodon't, we need to give them
other ways of becoming an adult.
I've had parents say they'vecried in my office saying I
can't be the only parent atgraduation for high school and
my child's not going to college,like I just can't do it.
(26:16):
He's going to have to justapply somewhere so that I can
say that, even if he doesn't go.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Isn't that terrible.
So that's about the parentright, and it's society too.
It's you know, it's Well you'reright, but that's about how the
parent feels about society, thepressures they feel whenever
your child's failing, and what Iwas going to say to that, too,
is we need to make not going tocollege a great thing too, that
(26:41):
everyone has different paths.
If you learn that trade, you'reheading to the top I think,
every profession, whatever youfind your passion in.
But there's a lot of things,and not only that they're
earning money earlier and savingmoney earlier, so they might be
on a better track.
We have to talk more about thatin a positive way.
And you know, ellen, eventhough you said, this might not
be for our listeners, becauseours are a little older, doesn't
(27:03):
matter what the age is, theycan finish college and say that
just wasn't for me, and I thinka lot of the parents who
struggle with their young adultchildren either.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
They were young adults who went to college,
barely made it through.
There are lots of kids likethat who went to any college USA
that would take, got through,aren't really that employable
because they didn't find thatbliss in college.
They don't know what makes themhappy.
College was actually not a goodplace to find that.
College was actually not a goodplace to find that.
(27:34):
So a lot of those kids thatyou're even describing, the
person that you met in thegrocery store might be one of
those kids who, yeah, she gotthrough college, yay, but she's
not a teacher, she's not a nurse, she's not going to law school.
Sometimes you find that the 23-,24 27-year-olds are still
trying to figure out what theywant to do, even though they
graduated from college and thenhave phones to pay too.
(27:54):
So you're right, we've got toreally be thoughtful about
giving kids lots of choices forthings to do, and even working
in a store, working atNordstrom's right out of high
school is fine.
You love fashion?
Start there, absolutely, youknow, work your way up.
We are desperate for managerswho can, who have been in the
(28:16):
trenches.
So there's lots of ways to dothis.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
There is some sort of mindset that everyone's going
to be CEO when they graduate ormake 200,000, whatever.
I think a lot of it depends onwhat environment you're in.
I mean, I'm sure all of youread this article in the New
York Times.
It just made me gasp.
Some young man that went to anIvy league school has started
this.
They're starting prepping kidsfor Ivy league schools at 11
(28:43):
years old and this guy chargeslike two $300,000 to find their
thing they're most passionateabout make sure they really
excel.
Make sure.
And I'm thinking to myself, ohmy gosh, what are we doing?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
No, and it's the wrong thing.
So when we're talking aboutpleasure and passion, those
things are not the same thing,especially what he's asking them
to do, which is a lot of thingsthat check boxes.
That's how we find our pleasure.
Our pleasure is oftentimesfound because we've got to find
something else to do.
So we pick up, like our dad'sold bass guitar, or we start
(29:17):
hitting the tennis ball againstthe garage or those sorts of
things, or we go and mow lawns,do something, Because when I was
a kid, if you had nothing to do, you had to make yourself
useful, and I'm sure it was thesame way for both of you.
We had to figure out well, I'mgoing to do something useful, I
might as well be something I cando, and then I kind of like
doing, and that was the start offinding that kids don't have
(29:39):
those opportunities anymore,especially not if they're
checking off all these boxes onsomeone's list.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
You said something earlier about we change careers
like six times.
There's something in thatlittle nugget there, because one
of the things I also don'tthink young adults have right
now is this idea that you can doanything you want to do.
You can change your career.
There can be multiple parts ofyou to your point where you can
(30:05):
be an artist and you can bewhatever, whatever.
How do you instill that from ayoung age, that we are all of
those things, not just the onething that we went to college
for or the one thing we gottraining in that makes us money?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I think it's unteaching kids that whole idea
that we need to immerseourselves in our careers and a
lot of us in our generationreally did that, so we weren't
necessarily great role modelsfor that.
We have to reteach them or givethem different kinds of
examples of how to live lives,and the thing that they don't
(30:41):
get when they're in high schoolis they just so many kids.
It's just high school 24-7.
It's study, study, study.
Don't even do chores at home.
We don't want to interfere withyour ability to study for that
test.
I'll do everything for you.
And it's crazy.
We're teaching them the oppositeof what you just suggested,
which is life is a puzzle and weput pieces in the puzzle and
(31:04):
many people who are artists sayI just want to work as a
waitress because when I get offI don't have emails to return.
I can just be an artist.
So we've got to be able to givethem this idea that life is
much more of a puzzle or apainting that we're constantly
putting into place and changingaround.
It's a hard thing to do, but Ithink having discussions about
(31:26):
that and again centering itaround what are the things that
we really care about that giveus pleasure, that we're grateful
for.
That's really the heart of this.
Just in our society we're notvery good at really
understanding that pleasure.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I love this whole gratefulness thing and I think
that's something that we allmiss and we all forget because
there's so much to be gratefulfor.
Ellen, the last part of yourbook is when you need extra help
.
When should we be concernedabout our adult children, and
what can we do when we find thiskid with great potential
doesn't give care?
Speaker 1 (31:58):
at all.
So the things to really lookfor are an absence of
friendships, an absence of doingthings that give them pleasure
in their free time and notholding a job.
Those are the things thatreally get in the way of life.
And, as we're looking atsuccessful adults, they have
jobs.
They have relationships thatare sustaining to them and
(32:19):
satisfying to them.
Now you have to look at yourchild.
For some people that means lotsof friendships.
For others that can just be apartnership with one person and
a couple of friends in theirfamily, so be able to know your
child and whether or not that'sappropriate for them.
But when they're chronicallyhaving issues, chronically
depressed, unable to hold a job,unable to be successful in
(32:43):
relationships, that's when, morethan one of those two, you can
have a child who just hastrouble with a long-term
partnership.
For example, yes, therapy canhelp that, talking therapy can
help that, talking to people canhelp that.
But when you really want to beworried when two out of those
three things are not going welland we do miss, sometimes
significant mental health issuesin our young adults, thinking
(33:08):
that they just don't care,they've never cared, when in
many cases and I know you'vetalked about this on many shows
that mid-20s is a huge time whenmental health issues show up,
and very significant mentalhealth issues like thought
disorders, schizophrenia.
(33:28):
So we can miss those thinkingthat if he'd just get a job he'd
be fine, as opposed to maybe hedoesn't have a job, maybe we
haven't heard from him in threemonths, because there's
something bigger going on.
And consult a professional, ifyou think that's what's
happening, so that you can getsome clarity on that.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And you think the professional can help you learn
to say, to know what to say tothem, because that's hard to
approach a kid that's beencompletely thriving and all of a
sudden they're in their earlytwenties and something shakes
and you feel like they need somehelp.
There's ways to approach it and, I'm sure, ways not to.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, I think the more information the better,
because the hardest thing whenyou've got a child who's not
successfully negotiatingadulthood especially in those
years, those 20s, which I thinkis such a hard age group it's so
hard, it's very easy to getcaught up in that mindset that
I'm going to limit set with thischild Again.
I know you've had podcasts onthis.
(34:24):
I've listened to them.
We also have to keep that inmind.
It's not like there is a onesize fits all.
All of these things areimportant in terms of our
toolbox as parents.
So you want to make sure youget a lot of information about
that and I really do think thatmost good psychologists,
psychiatrists, could give yousome good information about what
(34:46):
you've seen if they have enoughinformation from you about what
the child has been like.
So a child has done well, goneto Ivy League school, and all of
a sudden in mid-20s they'reonline, being radicalized with
some cause.
That's cause for concern.
That's not a normal transitioninto adulthood, especially when
it's not been part of theirchildhood at all.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
So right?
Well, Ellen, this is hard forme to say, but we always ask our
guests for two takeaways.
I'd love you to offer twotakeaways.
This has been wonderful.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Okay, one of the things I was thinking about with
this is we put so much guilt onourselves as parents for not
doing things right when theywere little.
We can do things pretty badlywhen they're older too.
A mom can say something to achild like just something awful
to them.
I've heard lots of my friendssay my mother said on our
deathbed this or that, and soit's good for us to keep in mind
(35:40):
that parenting and this is sortof the whole point of your
podcast, but parenting isn'tover.
Like we are still parenting,like we have a chance to correct
all those things that we wentwhy didn't we do that?
And we can say these things toour kids in a way that's so
(36:00):
healing to them and to us too,because half the time it was
worse on us than it was on them,to be honest but that the
things we're doing now areactually parenting them.
They are not totally formed,and neither are we, and so we
can really continue to learn tobe great parents throughout our
lives, no matter how we started,no matter what kind of ways we
fumbled.
So that's one thing.
Just remember that.
(36:21):
And the other thing is getyourself a friend like Denise,
and if you don't have a Denisein your life, go find one,
because there are lots ofparents out there who wish they
had another parent who could bethere and say no, you didn't
screw up, you did a good job andyour kids are doing great and I
love you and them too, andthat's what everybody needs in
(36:43):
their lives.
Seriously, we all need support.
This is a communal activity.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
We all do need support.
You're right, I just loved whatyou said.
Initially we all thought 18, wewere done.
Get them into a good college,you're done.
The impact we have and again,we've said this in every episode
it's our longest relationshipwith these kids.
It's our time to reflect onsome of the things we may have
not done great and making up forsome of that and, most
(37:09):
important, accept them for whothey are.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Ellen, thank you for having me.
I've really enjoyed this andI'm going to miss seeing you in
this arena.
At least for now, we'll seewhat happens.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Ellen, thank you again so much for being with us
today.
It's always a greatconversation.
I really appreciate it.
Yeah, we all do.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Okay, guys, it's bittersweet saying goodbye this
time Again.
We'll not be back on a regularschedule and episodes may drop
when I read something, findsomeone who we can talk to and
want to explore again.
But as the founder of thepodcast, I'm going to go it
alone and I'm going to do what Ithink is best for the listeners
, but we can't thank you allenough for listening, supporting
us and coming on this journeywith us.
(37:52):
Finally, I want to thank Connie, ellen and Kirsten for taking
this journey with me.
You added so much and made it alot more fun to do this on a
regular basis.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
So thank you, denise, you're welcome and thank you so
much for having me, and I thinkyou really said it the best,
and we are so grateful to all ofthe listeners and hope you have
taken away some amazing nuggetsto help you continue to develop
healthy relationships with youradult children.
These episodes aren't goinganywhere, so please check back
whenever you want.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
And still consider.
If you have a great idea, sendit to me at
biteyourtonguepodcast atgmailcom.
I still like to get your ideasand we'll decide what to do.
Remember to stay subscribedbecause we'll continue to have
the podcast episodes up therelive as long as I continue to
pay for our hosting platform.
Follow us on social media.
I might be posting now and then, but I have to say the greatest
(38:45):
relief for me, to be honestwith you, is not having to be on
social media.
It seems that it's altered ourworld and we've seen that a lot
through these interviews.
Thank you again, listeners, andif you take anything away from
the last four years, rememberand we're all going to say this
together sometimes you just haveto bite your tongue.
(39:07):
Thank you.
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