July 11, 2025 • 53 mins
Emotional maturity transforms our relationships with adult children, but what exactly does it look like in practice? In this powerful conversation with Dr. Lindsay Gibson, clinical psychologist and author of The New York Times bestseller "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents," we discover that emotional maturity exists on a continuum that shifts with our stress levels and resources.
When our adult children challenge our memories or share perspectives that differ from our own, our defensive instincts kick in automatically. But Dr. Gibson offers a revolutionary approach: temporarily set aside your need to be right and focus instead on understanding their emotional experience. This shift from "courtroom thinking" to empathetic listening creates space for authentic connection.
We're experiencing a profound cultural transition from what Gibson calls the "family age," where identity came from roles and external markers, to the "self-awareness age," characterized by greater psychological understanding and individual consciousness. This explains why so many parents feel caught between outdated expectations and new relationship dynamics with their adult children.
The most transformative insight? The very phrase "adult children" contains problematic contradictions. "My child" suggests ownership over another autonomous human being while failing to acknowledge their full adulthood. Instead, Gibson suggests approaching our adult children more like valued friends whose company we enjoy and whose autonomy we respect.
Self-awareness (recognizing our thoughts and feelings in the moment) and self-knowledge (understanding the patterns behind our reactions) form the foundation of emotional maturity. Together, they allow us to separate our defensive responses from our deeper desire for connection. When an adult child sets a boundary that feels hurtful, these skills help us recognize our feelings without reacting impulsively.
Have you noticed shifts in your relationship with your adult children? Share your experiences and continue the conversation by following us on social media or visiting biteyourtonguepodcast.com. The journey toward more authentic family connections starts with understanding ourselves.
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
So many people look at themselves with such critical
, judgmental, hopeless eyesbecause that's the way they've
been raised.
They've been shamed, made tofeel terrible about themselves
when they do something wrong andthey carry that little internal
critical voice around inside ofthem.
And they carry that littleinternal critical voice around
(00:26):
inside of them.
So it makes it very hard forthose people to begin to look at
themselves.
In order to grow, and first wehave to realize that we have to
love ourselves.
Everything starts withaccepting yourself, right where
you are and knowing where you'reat and, yes, where you hope to
be, but not to beat yourself upbecause you haven't gotten there
(00:51):
yet.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Hey, everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue the
podcast.
Join me, your host, deniseGorin, as we explore the ins and
outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together, we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you with our adultchildren.
Together, we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
(01:12):
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when to
bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Welcome back to Bite yourTongue the podcast.
We're back.
Sort of I'm Denise and I'mflying solo today, making
scheduling interviews a littlebit easier, while I might bring
(01:32):
Ellen or Kirsten back as a guesthost later on, for right now
it's just me.
Connie Gorin-Fisher is stillhere as our amazing producer and
audio engineer.
As always, we're not stickingto a regular schedule.
We're on a mission to find thevery best guests, not just fill
slots.
But before we dive in withtoday's episodes, I have some
exciting personal news.
(01:53):
I welcomed my first grandchildin April, a beautiful baby boy.
I was able to hold him when hewas just four hours old.
It was truly magical.
I took tons of advice from ourepisode with the grandmother
doula, though I definitelyoverstayed my welcome.
I've learned so much and I'llshare a lot of that in a future
(02:15):
episode, but for now, let's diveinto today's topic.
Today's episode truly is a mustlisten.
We're exploring a crucial topicour role as parents and how it
shapes our relationships withour adult children.
This is it everyone an episodeeveryone must listen to and
share.
(02:35):
Today's guest is someone I'vebeen wanting to talk to for a
long time Dr Lindsay Gibson.
She's a clinical psychologistand author of the wildly popular
book Adult Children ofEmotionally Immature Parents.
This book is a New York Timesbestseller and has been
published in 37 languages.
I read the article about herthat appeared on the very front
(02:58):
page of the New York TimesMagazine section I think it was
in May and I thought now this issomeone I really need to
interview.
I'll share a link to that storyin my episode notes, but before
you start thinking, wait, isthat me?
Don't worry, you're not alone.
In fact, that's exactly whatwe're going to explore today how
even the most well-meaningparents can sometimes fall into
(03:21):
emotionally immature parents,and what we can do to grow
beyond them and show updifferently for adult kids.
I saw some of myself as anemotionally immature parent
during those early days of beinga grandparent.
Dr Gibson has more than 30years of experience helping
people untangle complicatedfamily dynamics, and today she's
(03:43):
here to help us look inwardwith curiosity, not judgment.
This episode is aboutself-awareness, growth and maybe
a few light bulb moments.
So grab your coffee, maybe ajournal to take notes and let's
dive in.
Welcome, dr Gibson.
For listeners who might not befamiliar with your work, can you
(04:03):
explain a little bit about whatyou mean by emotionally
immature parents?
What are some of the key traits, and I'd love you to give us
some examples.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Well, emotional maturity.
I like to think of that asbeing on a continuum, much as we
think of someone's intellectualdevelopment or their social
development.
Think of someone's intellectualdevelopment or their social
development.
We start out at a very earlyage one way, and hopefully we
develop along and become moremature as we get older.
But that continuum ofdevelopment, it has a movable
(04:37):
marker.
Depending on how good we'refeeling, how resourced we are,
for instance, if you are sick orfatigued or stressed, your
level of emotional maturity isgoing to slide toward the more
emotionally immature level.
(04:58):
Okay, it's true for anybody, Idon't care how emotionally
mature you are.
So I'm careful in my books totalk about relatively
emotionally mature people,sufficiently adequately
emotionally mature, becausethere's no pinnacle that
somebody reaches and then hangsout there for the rest of their
(05:19):
life.
We're always, whoever you are,we're always struggling to
maintain our relationships andreally our state of being in as
mature a level as we can muster.
But for sure, all of us aregoing to act in ways that we
(05:39):
regret and ways that we lookback on with shame or, you know,
just wishing that we had had itmore together.
So when we think aboutemotional immaturity in the
sense that I write about, andyou have to keep in mind too,
denise, that I'm writing as atherapist who is seeing people
(06:01):
that are coming to me, who, inthis case, you know, given our
topic, probably would be theadult children of those parents
that are coming in.
Once in a blue moon I might havea parent contact me about
getting help for their end ofthings, but mostly I'm hearing
(06:23):
the experience of the personwho's had difficulty with the
emotionally immature parent.
So here's a difficulty thatthey tend to have.
One is that they feelinvalidated and two, they feel
controlled or diminished ordismissed.
They feel that they have notbeen able to be their full, true
(06:48):
selves in their relationshipwith their parent, that the love
and acceptance that they gotwas quite conditional.
And I don't mean conditional,like you have to get all A's.
I mean conditional also on thebasis of how that parent was
feeling that day.
(07:09):
You know, was the parent ableto be present enough with that
child that day because of theirown issues, their own problems?
So there's a sense for theseadult children that they have
had to hide their true feelingsand their true thoughts for fear
of upsetting or angering theirparent.
(07:32):
The idea is that when you arerelatively emotionally immature,
you probably have had troublelearning how to manage,
recognize your feelings, youremotions.
So you tend to get reactiveinstead of pausing to respond to
(07:54):
what your child is doing orsaying.
And you also have trouble withstress.
Stress tends to disorganize aperson who is more along the
lines of the emotionallyimmature.
It's just something that's veryhard for them.
And, of course, how do we allact when we're stressed?
(08:16):
We act in ways that we're sorryfor later.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Okay, Would you add anxiety to stress when you're
anxious and stressed, yeah, whenyou get stressed, you get
anxious, you're anxious.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
This is really where the maturity comes in.
Depending on what kinds ofcoping mechanisms you typically
use, that's going to determinehow productively or how well
you're able to handle conflictor some kind of disagreement
with that other person.
So the stress causes a kind ofa feeling of being off balance.
(08:53):
That creates anxiety.
They feel disoriented, theyfeel out of control, they don't
know what to do.
By definition, I mean, that'slike the little child doesn't
know what to do when somethinghappens that upsets them, and so
they tend to lose emotionalcontrol.
A very young solution to that isto blame the other person and
(09:18):
to get very reactive and it getsinto that well, you did this or
I only did that because I getvery defensive, and that of
course you know doesn't go wellwhen you're trying to work out a
problem with another person.
So we get that kind ofreactivity and the anxiety and
(09:40):
the stress that people feel whenthey have some level of
emotional immaturity is so allconsuming that they end up
acting in a very egocentric way,that is, they just can't get
their mind off of how thingsaffected them.
They're taken over by theiremotional response to situations
(10:02):
.
They might prefer that theydidn't, but maybe they never
learned, or maybe they never hadthe opportunity to have
somebody calm them down andteach them how to get a handle
on their reactions so that theydon't say or do something that
alienates someone.
You can imagine what that doesto your empathy for the person
(10:24):
that you're in the relationshipwith.
It makes it very hard to haveempathy for them, because you
get very fixated on your ownreactivity, your own anxiety,
your fears, your sense offeeling lost or feeling out of
control, and that makes itreally hard for you to pay
(10:44):
attention to what the otherperson's feeling.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Oh, all of that makes so much sense.
So put yourself in the place ofan adult parent now who and as
you've said in many of yourother interviews, every parent
is flawed.
We've all said and done thingsthat we know we shouldn't have
said and done.
Now you're in a situation whereyour adult child is saying
something to you and the storythat they're telling you goes
(11:08):
completely against what you sawhappen.
You don't want to be that.
Well, I said this and you saidthat.
What is the best way to respond?
Because part of you wants tosay but you told me to do that,
and they're saying why did youdo that?
How do you respond morematurely when a conversation
like that occurs?
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah, well, of course it's very threatening
emotionally threatening whensomebody that is the world to
you I mean your own child, thatyou, you know so badly, want a
good relationship with, whenthey're telling you something
that you did wrong and youremember that you did not do
that or you did the opposite ofthat, or whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Or you thought, you did, you tried your very best.
Right Thought you did yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Your intention was good, right.
So we all tend to interpret ourown behavior according to what
our intention was, not itseffect on the other person.
So we think that if we explainour intention, the other person
will go.
Of course.
Now I understand.
Sorry, mom, didn't mean tobring that up.
(12:14):
I guess I'm wrong, but thatdoesn't work because it's not
about what you intended, it'sabout what the effect was.
So, the first thing I wouldrecommend to somebody is keep
your own history straight inyour mind, write it down in your
(12:34):
journal after you get off thecall or you have the
conversation, to write down youraccount of what happened and
what your motivation was, sothat you take care of that part
of you that's saying yes, but Iwas intending to do this other
thing.
I really am a good person.
I didn't mean to Save it foryour journal, that
(12:57):
self-validation, but when youtry to get them to see what your
intention was, you're nowexpecting them to switch horses
and have empathy for you.
Right Like you're saying putyourself in my shoes.
This is what I intended tohappen.
(13:19):
So it's for the you know.
For the time being, if you wantto try to work something out
with your adult child, lay asidewhat your intention was and lay
aside the unfairness of beingaccused of something that you
don't think you did because wegot bigger fish to fry.
We're trying to have arelationship, or improve the
(13:41):
relationship, with that adultchild, which means that you
listen to them like a therapistin a way, meaning that you don't
have judgment on what they'retelling you or your own point of
view.
You're just trying tounderstand things from their
point of view.
You're trying to put yourselfin their shoes and you'll notice
(14:04):
that with your best friends,with your closest people, that's
what they do when they listento you.
They are trying to understandwhat this was like for you and
that makes us love them, becausewe all want to be understood,
understood.
That situation, where you have adifferent memory of an
(14:26):
interchange, is so important tovalidate it for yourself.
I am going I can't wait towrite this down because I
remember what really happened,but this is not a court of law.
We do not have a stenographerwho is taking down.
What matters is the feelingthat is going on between the two
(14:50):
of you and if your adult childis trying to tell you something
that bothered them, it worksbest if you lay that other
courtroom stuff aside and justtry to listen for their
experience and let them knowthat you got their emotional
experience and you see it fromtheir point of view.
(15:11):
Worry about whether it's trueor not later.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, all of it makes perfect sense, I think.
The only thing is, I think witha friend there is a back and
forth much more so, and I wonderwhat is the role of the adult
child in being mature in thiskind of situation?
What is the role of the adultchild in being mature in this
kind of situation, allowing themom or the father to express
their feelings?
I ran into a parent the otherday who listens to my podcast
(15:37):
all the time and she said to mewhy is it always on us?
Why do we have to be the onesthat are always walking on
eggshells or working to makethis relationship strong?
What role does the adult childhave to take in this.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
They don't have to take any role in terms of just
thinking about interpersonalrelationships, like if you have
two people and one desperatelywants the relationship and the
other one you know they're,they've got one foot out the
door Right.
So when you start as the personwho is feeling left or feeling
(16:17):
rejected, when you startasserting your rights and you
start thinking about what theyought to be feeling responsible
for too to kind of even this upyou're losing sight of the
opportunity that you have,because you're being given an
opportunity to bite your tongueand you're not doing that
(16:44):
because you're knuckling underor you know you're a weak, spine
, spineless person.
You're doing it strategically.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Gosh yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Okay, yeah, because that is going to get you more of
the result.
That you want is a continuationof the relationship and maybe
some willingness and interest onyour adult child's part to keep
trying to communicate with you.
That's what you're after.
So, I understand, gosh.
(17:14):
I totally understand thefeeling like why do I have to be
the one who's doing all thework?
I would just posit as a thingto consider, possibly, that from
that adult child's point ofview and I'm speaking as the
therapist of these people theyfeel like they have been doing a
huge amount of emotional workon your behalf their whole life.
(17:37):
They have felt like they had towatch what they said, or dad
would get upset.
They have to, you know, nottell their parent what they
really did or what they reallythought, because it would be a
moral outrage.
They have to do whatever theirparents said, or else they would
be failing a moral obligationand therefore they would be a
(17:58):
bad person.
I mean, the parent, of course,didn't see any of this, because
they are the ones who are in theposition of authority.
For them, it's going to feellike that relationship through
childhood and adolescence Well,maybe not adolescence, but for a
long time the relationship wentsmoothly but they're not taking
(18:21):
into account, they're the oneswith all the power for those
first 12 years, or 15.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Well, 18 usually.
Usually, when you're paying forthings, you have more power.
That's true.
When they have to live underyour roof, you have a little
more power.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I agree.
It's like how would you treatsomeone that you wanted to, that
you liked that you wanted to begood friends with?
You would be minding your P'sand Q's.
You would have your super tunedempathy out.
You would have your antenna upbecause you would not want to
inadvertently say or do thingsthat are going to alienate this
(18:59):
attractive potential friend.
Quote unquote.
If I were trying to set up theopportunity to be better friends
with this person, it's going tobe pretty far down the road
before I'm going to tackle anykind of conflictual stuff with
that person, if ever.
I'm going to be, you know,trying to facilitate our
(19:23):
connection.
We all know how to do that.
I mean nobody, well, I guesssome people do and they end up
not having very many friends.
But most of us are very cannyabout what we have to do in
terms of our own self-controland self-observation in order to
have friends, and what we wantto do with our adult children is
(19:45):
we want to be peers with them.
I mean, that's the whole,that's the secret.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
You mean I have to get dressed and put makeup on
when I see my kids now, no, I'mjust kidding.
I'm thinking about, you know, anew friend.
You do try to look nicer evenwhen you're seeing a new friend.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yes, you do.
Yes, you do Because you are inthat self-reflective place.
Like how am I doing collectiveplace?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Like how am I doing?
How am I doing?
Okay, Am I putting my best footforward.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Am I making this a pleasant experience for this new
friend?
Will they want to come back and, you know, go to the movies
with me again, or have lunch, orwhatever I mean?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
it makes perfect sense.
Why does this make such perfectsense and we don't think about
it?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Oh, because we've had the luxury of the family role
thing for years, where we weregiven our role, we were given
our authority.
They adored us, they loved us.
They're so cute, they're so fun.
We had all of that withoutreally having to do a whole lot
(20:52):
of emotional work in terms ofmaintaining the relationship.
I don't mean we didn't have alot of emotional work to do, but
I mean in terms of likeworrying about whether or not
your child's going to love you.
You know you don't have toworry about that for the first
teen years.
They need you.
You are the most importantperson in their life and if you
have trouble giving that up andtransitioning out of that into a
(21:18):
peer relationship, I thinkthat's when you begin to feel
the friction with your adultchild.
They grow up and have their ownlives.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Your book was published in 2015.
So it's 10 years later now.
Suddenly, it's become sopopular.
What has changed about ourculture now that everyone's
talking about thisadult-parent-child relationship?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yes, I think we have to keep in mind that the book
really took off.
Started to take off around 2018, 2020.
Ok, that coincides with whenpodcasts started.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Oh OK.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
We already had an explosion of self-help books.
The psychoeducation of thepublic was well underway.
Then we had podcasts on top ofthat and then we had COVID, you
know, which made everybody evenmore attentive to podcasts, and
(22:22):
I think it sort of got afoothold in that world, because
I know how many of thosepodcasts and things I did.
So I think that was part of it.
But the other part of it isthere is, I think, a shift in
the age that we're in.
It's like industrial age,technological age.
(22:44):
Now we're in the informationage.
In terms of our intimate familyrelationships, we were in the
family age and I think now weare in the self-awareness or
individual consciousness age.
Is that good or bad?
I think it's going to be verygood, but I think the transition
(23:05):
is going to be already is veryconfusing to people, very
disorienting and probably willbe quite conflictual for some
time, because there's atransition from this would be in
the family age.
We know who we are by our roles,by what we do for a living, who
(23:28):
we are to each other.
It's quite externally definedand we define our worth from
that.
With all of this psychologicaleducation, the popularization of
podcast information, et cetera,we are now finding ourselves to
be exploring our ownconsciousness, our own
(23:51):
individuality, in a way that,you know I don't know if it's
ever been like this.
It's really remarkable becausepeople now are reading books,
listening to podcasts andthinking of themselves.
They're processing their ownemotional experiences and then,
(24:11):
as a result of that, we'regetting this tremendous
vocabulary and conceptualframework of all kinds of
psychological issues.
We're plugging ourselves intothat as a way of understanding
our experiences and deducing whowe are and developing our
self-worth.
It's not coming from our rolesand our family relationships
(24:34):
anymore.
I think we have gone past apoint where, the more conscious
you become, try to becomeunconscious.
When you've become conscious ofsomething, what does that mean?
Try to not notice somethingonce somebody's pointed it out
to you.
What does that mean?
(25:12):
That now into account?
It doesn't just disappear.
Okay, and that's a good thing,because if I learn that when I
do this it hurts me or I get introuble or whatever, I can't any
longer be unaware of theeffects of that behavior.
I'm conscious of it now.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I'm aware of it.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
But when you're talking about this in intimate
relationships like with yourchild, that is a very hard kind
of education.
It's hard on the self-esteem.
It's hard to get your headaround it.
It's hard to put yourself asidelong enough to see it from the
other person's point of view.
It's very difficult.
(25:48):
But I think it's going to be agood thing because when two
self-aware or relativelyself-aware people talk to each
other or have a relationshipwith each other, the
relationship takes on a depthand an intimacy that you won't
find in relationships that aredefined much more superficially,
(26:12):
according to roles or socialthings or gossip or whatever
more superficial things.
So I think it's going to begood.
I just think it's going to bevery hard on the people who
aren't aware that this ishappening.
It's like this change camealong in the dead of night, you
know, and we woke up the nextmorning and, all of a sudden,
(26:37):
the things that we assumed wewould always have in terms of
our position or ourrelationships now our adult
child is questioning that andthey're questioning what they
want to do with their lives orkind of relationships they want,
and they're telling us about it.
We're still thinking wait aminute, you know, I'm the mom or
(26:59):
I'm the dad.
What's happening here?
We don't have a reference point, but if we can be aware that
maybe this shift has occurredand we just didn't get the
postcard in the mail coming.
Next month, your child is goingto start self-actualizing in a
way that's going to be very hardfor you.
If we don't have thatpreparation, all we can do is
(27:22):
respond defensively.
If we learn about some of thesethings, we can respond in ways
that help us to get a handle onour own defensiveness and our
own fears.
There's a book that's going tobe coming out I think it's in
September.
It's called Parents haveFeelings Too.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Finally.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Yes, isn't that a great title?
Yeah, and I think it'savailable for pre-order.
Yeah, and it's.
I think it's available forpre-order.
But she has, like, this wholesystem for how to catch yourself
in a reactive mode and figureout if you're being defensive
and what your true feelings arethat you're scared of in the
moment that's making you reactdefensively.
(28:06):
And then how do you deal withthose feelings and process them
so that you can respond to youradult child in an authentic and
validating way and begin tobuild a real relationship with
them on that basis.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Wow.
So as I listened to you andthis is going to sound defensive
, I think so, don't judge mewhen I grew up, all the roles
were in place.
Everything you said I realizedwas my relationship with my
parents.
I was their daughter, they weremy parents and I just did
everything I could for them tomake them happy.
(28:44):
Now I think also our generationwas the first generation to
acknowledge our children'sfeelings and emotions.
My generation of being raised,it was like get over it.
There weren't therapists onevery corner.
My generation encouraged ourchildren to express themselves,
probably had more children intherapy than any generation ever
(29:04):
before.
And yet now we're surprisedwhen they use that therapy and
know how to set boundaries anduse it on us.
We now had to have thatrelationship with our parents
and now learn a whole.
Nother way to have arelationship with our adult
children.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yes, and it's, oh my gosh, it's so hard because
there's so much.
I mean, first of all, it's hardto undo your natural defenses,
which, incidentally, happenautomatically, involuntarily,
unconsciously.
We don't do defenses because wewant to.
The beauty of a defense is itkicks in before you suffer.
(29:46):
A psychological defense is nogood if it waits until you're
feeling shame or guilt orwhatever and then it kicks in.
No, it kicks in before you feelany of that and you find
yourself becoming indignant orangry or defensive.
Okay, so that you don't feelthose awful feelings.
But in family situations likeyou're describing and of course
(30:09):
most of us in this generationgrew up like that you don't have
any idea how to process youremotions.
Nobody was helping you learn toput words on it, how to express
it in ways that werenon-damaging.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
In fact, we were shut down.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Shut down Absolutely.
If you had an outburst, youwere made to feel very bad about
that.
We didn't get any practice inthat at all.
But what you were saying,denise, about now, we did all
this for our kids and welistened to their feelings and
now they're coming back andwe're being treated like this.
(30:50):
I was thinking about that verything as I was preparing for our
talk today and I was thinking,you know you could give yourself
a pat on the back that youraised a kid, that instead of
smothering and suppressing theirwhole individuality and
(31:11):
emotional life, they are settinga boundary.
They are telling you no, theyare saying I need a break.
There is something that maybeyou did that enabled them to
have the courage and the faiththat they could take this step
(31:33):
toward their own individuation,their own self-development.
Maybe you did something rightin the sense of giving them that
confidence.
Ultimately, Now they may havehad to go to therapy to work
through.
You know their anxieties andwhatever, whatever.
But you know, maybe they hadenough love to give them a sense
(31:57):
that I can survive if dad and I, mom and I are on the outs for
a while.
There was a great quote fromGeorge Valiant, who did the
Harvard Men's Study for 50 years, a longitudinal study and they
looked at what went on inchildren's backgrounds of these
men that were studied and howdid it end up showing up in
(32:20):
their adult life what reallymattered to their development.
This was a study with innercity youth, so they were a lot
of them were were quitedisadvantaged.
What they found was that thegood stuff they got as children
really counted more thananything that went wrong.
I just love that.
(32:42):
I love that Because I thinkit's.
I mean, I think we can see thetruth of that.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
You know, it's funny that you say that I'm loving
this conversation and I thinkyou are completely brilliant,
everything you're bringing tothe table.
Recently, I think, I told you Ihad a new grandbaby, a new
grandson, and I was spendingtime with my daughter and when I
got home she sent me a text andit was very I don't want to say
curt, but I could tell a verystrict boundary was being set
and I replied, saying I'm soproud of you, you know how to
(33:11):
set your boundaries that workfor you.
And she replied I was raised byyou.
And she put a little heart andI said well, I still struggle
with it.
And she replied I guess I dotoo.
I was a little offended by thisbump, but I thought wait a
minute, I wish I would have beenable to do that.
So I guess I replied properlybecause I was like wow, yeah,
(33:34):
this is firm on me, but sheneeds to say what she needs to
say.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Exactly, and what you're describing is an
emotionally intimateconversation where you each are
sharing a little piece you knowit's not a diatribe by either
way.
You're sharing a little pieceof something true about your
emotional experience or yourpast.
Okay, and you went to thatdeeper level with her and stayed
(34:06):
there for a little while, andthat I mean that's what builds
stronger relationships, right.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I want to talk a little bit about estrangement,
because you brought it up thatmaybe it's okay to have a little
bit of this, having youngadults come and talk to you.
There always are two sides to astory, so what you're hearing
from them is how they perceivethis situation.
When do you make a judgmentthat, yes, it was an emotionally
you know immature parent andyou were faced with these things
(34:36):
, or that every parent is flawedand here are some ways to move
on?
I worry that adult kids arebeing pushed to move away from
that parent that might be sayingthings that aren't appropriate
rather than trying to mend andimprove that relationship.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
If a therapist is doing that, they're not a good
therapist.
Someone comes in, tells you aproblem and you say in effect,
yes, whatever you say, I'm onboard with you and yes, you
shouldn't see your parentsanymore and yes, you should cut
them out of your life.
I mean that's crazy.
(35:12):
My goal in therapy is for thisperson to at some point get
enough of their ownself-development going and
enough self-awareness andself-confidence and
self-knowledge that they can runtheir own life and they can
(35:34):
consult their own inner guidance, and that inner guidance will
be in accord with reality.
Okay, I'm not interested insomebody just following whatever
they thought of.
Next.
It's like does it stack up?
Is it accurate?
Does it reflect what's going on?
Tell me more about that.
You're trying to find out asmuch as you can from a one-sided
(35:57):
story.
What went on For someone to takeat face value what somebody is
telling you about their parentand then to, on the limited
amount of data, to suggest thatthey should estrange themselves
from their parent.
I mean this is such areductionistic, inaccurate
(36:22):
picture of what goes on in goodtherapy, and I'm not denying
that there are therapists outthere who are irresponsible or
have a hobby horse to ride aboutthis or working at their own
unresolved parent issues throughtheir patients.
I understand that that happens,but to sort of paint therapy as
(36:43):
turning adult children againsttheir parents I think is
probably very inaccurate.
And it begs the question whatdo you do when a patient comes
in and they are in distress andthey tell you what the parents
said, and they tell you how itfelt and you're realizing that
(37:07):
they are being made to feeldepressed or anxious or whatever
because of this pattern thatthey've got going with the
parent.
If you just said, well, cutthis person out of your life and
you'll be all better.
I mean, how sophisticated isthat?
Not very.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
There are people I've interviewed who have said some
therapists will even help thepatient write a letter to their
parents explaining why they'recutting them out of their life.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Well, let's say that that did happen.
I would hope that the reasonthe therapist was helping the
adult child write that letterwas to help the child think
about what it was that theyreally wanted to get across.
Sometimes, we read each other,we read our emails to friends or
partners to say you know, did Igo too far?
(37:56):
If the therapist is being usedas a sounding board or as a sort
of an objective third party,that makes sense to me.
That you would take somethinglike that to your therapist
because it's very emotionallyrelevant and it's very important
in that person's life.
You would also, in that case,want to ask the person if you
(38:19):
say it this way, how would youfeel if someone said that to you
?
Not in a judgy way, like howwould you feel, but like you
know, what would that be likefor you to receive this?
And what is your goal?
Do you want your parent to beable to listen to what you're
saying?
Well, yes, I do.
Okay, so if someone approachedyou and said it this way, would
(38:42):
that make you more or less ableto hear what they were saying?
And they might say, well, Iprobably would get mad or I
probably wouldn't listen, orwhatever.
Yeah, so what is it that youreally want to tell them here?
If that client is speaking outof defensiveness and fear or
guilt or whatever outrage,whatever it is, if they're
(39:04):
speaking out of that, it's goingto be very prickly, it's going
to be very sharp, it's going toput the other person down and
they're not going to be able tohear it.
So what we want to do is wewant to help them get beneath
that defensiveness and get itthe real thing.
Like you know maybe it might be, mom when I tried to tell you
(39:28):
how something made me feel, Iended up feeling like there was
something wrong with me.
I ended up feeling ashamed thatI had even thought that thought.
Now we're doing emotionalintimacy, now I'm sharing my
real feelings with you and thatparent, if they can hold the
(39:48):
line for a minute and justabsorb that.
That was that adult child'sexperience in the past and have
empathy for that, have somecompassion for what that must
have been like for a kid, forwhat that must have been like
for a kid.
Now we are in the land ofemotional intimacy.
We are now sharing with eachother what our experiences were.
(40:10):
I don't think I ever sat downwith somebody to go over a
letter or email to a parent.
Yeah, not in a reviewing kindof way.
I've had a couple of peoplecome in and read me what they've
already sent, but I figuredthat's their communication,
that's their genuinecommunication to their parent.
(40:30):
And what we try to look for iswhat is the outcome that you
want?
If you want them to understandtheir ways of communicating,
they're probably going to workbetter than others communicating
, they're probably going to workbetter than others.
If you want to set a boundary,and that's it, let's do it in a
way that really says what youwant to say and is going to set
(40:55):
it up for whatever the next stepis that you want?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Makes sense.
Two other quick things I wantto talk about, and then we're
going to wrap this up.
We've mentioned it, but I wantyou to sum it up.
You talk a lot about is thedifference between surface level
contact and emotionalconnection.
We've discussed that a littlebit, but I want you to give like
a concrete example.
And then also you talk aboutself-awareness how parents can
build awareness and grow, nomatter what age in their life.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah.
So for the surface level stuff,I would say, up until I don't
know, you know, maybe 30 yearsago, surface level is where it's
at back then I mean, if youlook at like, if you ever watch
TCM, the old movies, gosh, it isso superficial, it is so the
(41:49):
interactions between the people.
I mean it's very glamorous,it's very clever.
The real emotional sharingstuff that wasn't part of the
culture, all kind of playingroles in a way that
entertainment was not abouthearing about these deeper
conversations like we have insome movies today.
(42:11):
So that surface level thing wasvery culturally appropriate and
desirable.
Now, when we're trying to bemore true, more genuine and
authentic in our relationshipswith each other, that's going to
require again this willingnessto take the other person's
viewpoint, willingness toself-reflect like could I have
(42:35):
done anything that may havecontributed to this, and that
feeling of what can I do now torepair this?
How can I be receptive enoughthat we might get to the point
where maybe we could do somerepair with each other.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Can you ever ask your adult child like I feel like I
said too much here, what can Ido to make this better, or how
can you approach them if you'rebacktracking on a situation that
happened?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah Well, I'll give you an example from my life.
When my son turned 18, I sathim down at the kitchen table
and I said I just want toapologize to you.
I did the best I could, but Iwas so green I didn't know what
I was doing In this instance.
(43:25):
Whatever it was I said and didthe wrong things.
I didn't want to do thatbecause I love you with all my
heart, but I know what I did andI'm really sorry.
He said oh, mom, don't worryabout it.
I'm sure it made me stronger.
And I said no.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
So it always is good to acknowledge whatever it was
you thought you might havemessed up.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Think about it.
If someone came to you and said, Denise, remember that thing.
I said I think I really wenttoo far.
I've always regretted that Isaid it to you that way.
What would be the effect on you?
Speaker 2 (44:08):
I guess it depends on what they said.
I would say, yes, it reallyhurt me, and I might explain
more to them why it hurt.
I'm glad you figured this out.
It was a very hurtful thing.
I value our relationship enoughthat I kept going, but I
appreciate you talking about itnow.
You talking about it now.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
And wouldn't your first response be almost joy
that after all this time thisperson has cared enough about
your relationship and thoughtabout it that they're coming
back to you with an apology?
I won't project here, but myfirst reaction would be joy.
Can't believe that theyremember this and that it
(44:46):
mattered to them.
I hope my son felt a little bitof that.
For me it felt like, yeah, onthe day he became an adult he
needed to hear that I didn'thandle some things right, and I
wanted him to know that.
I realized that because Iwanted us to be close.
And how can you be close if youhaven't, you know, done that
(45:07):
kind of inventory on where youmay have fallen down on your
side of things?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
How about the self-awareness?
How can we be more aware ofourselves and how our actions
are affecting our relationshipwith our adult children?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Yeah, well, first we have to realize that we have
absolutely been trained out ofthat.
Okay, just like what you weredescribing, denise.
I mean self-awareness that was.
I don't even I wonder if maybe,maybe people back in the
forties that went to ashrams orsomething would know what that
meant, but but most people don'thave any experience in that.
(45:45):
So when we're thinking aboutself-awareness, we're thinking
about getting back in touch withour true self, and what may
have happened to us emotionallythat made us become scared and
defensive, may have made usoverbearing, controlling
whatever kind of self-protectivething we learned to do.
(46:08):
If we can go back and becomeaware of our own emotional and
psychological functioning, thenwe have the opportunity to have
that.
Self-reflection gives us theopportunity to then have empathy
for what that might have feltlike to the other person who was
on the receiving end of that.
(46:30):
You can do that through therapy, of course.
I mean that's a great way to doit.
But you can do it throughreading, you can do it through
contemplation, you can do itthrough talking with a friend
who might be willing to give yougentle feedback, that process
of self-awareness and the thingsthat we may regret that we've
done.
It's all about psychologicalgrowth.
(46:51):
You have to have a little bitof faith that there is such a
thing as psychological growthand that people are always
trying to do that in one way oranother.
They're trying to resolve theirold stuff, they're trying to
work it through.
I believe that because I seethat as a motivating force in
all my successfulpsychotherapies that that person
(47:14):
knew something was wrong andthey've been trying to figure it
out and trying to become moreself-aware and get more control
over it so they can have happierlives.
And that's really you know.
If you want to get realpractical about it, we're
looking for how to have happierlives.
If you're going to haveintimate relationships as a part
(47:34):
of your happy life which bydefinition you would then you
have to be able to take a lookat yourself.
I was going to say that but youknow what, for heaven's sake?
Speaker 2 (47:45):
you know, the whole time I was reading your book,
the thing that stuck out to methe most was the importance of
self-esteem, the importance ofbuilding that in yourself so you
then can create the strengthand self-awareness to create
those relationships around you.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Yes, I would just add to that that in order to have
the self-esteem, you have tohave the self-knowledge
Awareness and knowledge.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
So what's the difference between knowledge and
awareness?
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Okay.
So knowledge would be.
I mean, this is what people getout of longer term
psychotherapy they come tounderstand their reactions,
their feelings, their thoughts.
They get to know themselves.
Oh, you know, when my childsays to me mom, I wish that you
(48:37):
wouldn't do that.
And we come to realize that thereason I get all huffy and walk
out is because I am terrifiedthat they don't love me anymore,
that they won't want to haveanything to do with me if I get
scared and insecure, so I'mgoing to act like I'm the
(48:58):
injured party.
That's very complex, but whenyou get to know yourself and you
understand oh, that's how Idefend myself psychologically
from these bad feelings of shameor loss or fear you gain the
ability to decide how you'regoing to respond.
(49:22):
How you're going to respondbecause you will know oh, I'm
having that scared feeling, I'mafraid they're not going to love
me anymore.
Okay now, what am I going to dowith that?
I'm not going to walk out, I'mjust going to have my hurt
feelings.
I'm going to sit here and havemy hurt feelings.
I'm not going to tell them that.
I'm just going to get throughthis.
That's self knowledge, rightthere.
(49:44):
Practical application of knowingor coming to know yourself and
how your psyche works.
Self-awareness is allowingyourself to become aware of
those feelings, aware of thosethoughts.
I'm sitting here, I'm havingthe thought like I'm just going
(50:04):
to stand up and say, well, ifyou're going to be that way
about it, I'm going home.
That's my thought, and myfeeling is outrage, indignation.
That she would tell me, mom,stop doing that or don't do that
.
Okay, I know, I am aware ofthat.
Now I'm going to apply myself-knowledge to say and the
result of that is going to be afight.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
And what do I?
Speaker 1 (50:26):
really want here.
I want my relationship with mydaughter.
So what's my option?
Sit here and feel hurt andcarry on as best I can and worry
about what to do about it later, but at least don't do those
other things.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
Well, thank you so much.
As you know, at the end ofevery episode, I ask my guests
to leave our listeners with twothings they want them to take
away from this episode.
What would those two things befrom you, Dr Gibson?
Speaker 1 (50:53):
and self-knowledge, that you're improving your
self-worth, which is going tomake you a steadier, more
(51:18):
desirable partner in any kind ofrelationship, is dependent on
you putting the time into yourown self-development, getting to
know yourself and getting tohave a feeling of compassion and
self-worth about yourself.
That's going to make you akinder, gentler person with your
adult child.
And then, secondly, I would say, how would you treat a newfound
(51:40):
friend that you wanted to keepin your life?
Just think of it that way.
This is not your kid.
There are two things wrong withthat phrase my child and your
kid.
Yeah, my, they're not yours.
You gave birth to them, you putthem through college, whatever,
and they don't belong to you.
(52:02):
And child, they're not a childanymore.
We have a word for parents.
We have a word for children.
We have a word for adolescents.
We have a word for young adults.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
We do not have a word for adult child, you better
come up with one.
That's your next book.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
I would love to come up with it Once we sort of
redefine what we're doing astrying to keep a good friend or
trying to make a new friend.
We're maybe limited to thingslike if we think of them as this
cherished is separate andindividuated from ourselves, and
(52:48):
that's really where you want toget to in order to have that
adult relationship with them.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Well, thank you so much.
You have no idea how great thisis going to be for my audience.
You really sum things up insuch a beautiful way, so thank
you so much.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
Oh, thank you so much for having me Total pleasure.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Well, that's a wrap.
Wow, I learned so much fromthis episode.
I think all of us.
It's hard, it's hard work, butI think she makes a lot of sense
and I've always wondered why wecan't just be ourselves and be
real.
But our kids don't belong to usand they're establishing
themselves as separate beings,separate families, and learning
(53:31):
how to nurture thoserelationships and not take
things so personally and work onour self-awareness and
self-knowledge seems to be thekey.
We have another episode we'regoing to be recording very
shortly, and it's with anotherperson I'm very excited about.
I read an article in the NewYork Times called what I Tell
Mothers who Feel Rejected bytheir Adult Children, by Rachel
(53:51):
Glick.
It was in the Wall StreetJournal.
I love this article and I'llshare it when we talk to her,
but I can't wait for thatepisode too.
I hope you enjoyed it as muchas I did and I hope you'll enjoy
our coming episodes.
As you know, once again, we'renot dropping regularly, just
when we found great people totalk to.
Follow us on social media.
Please send us your questionsand possible guests to
(54:13):
biteyourtonguepodcast atgmailcom.
Visit our website atbiteyourtonguepodcastcom and
please think about supporting us.
We're keeping all our episodeslive.
We pay for all the platforms,we pay for our recording
platforms, so any little bit ofmoney helps.
If you go to our websitebiteyourtonguepodcastcom, you
can find the donate or sponsorus and you can also send by
(54:36):
Venmo.
Thanks so much for listeningand, as you heard from this
episode and many others,sometimes you just have to bite
your tongue.
So many people look at themselves with such critical
, judgmental, hopeless eyesbecause that's the way they've
been raised.
They've been shamed, made tofeel terrible about themselves
when they do something wrong andthey carry that little internal
critical voice around inside ofthem.
And they carry that littleinternal critical voice around
(00:26):
inside of them.
So it makes it very hard forthose people to begin to look at
themselves.
In order to grow, and first wehave to realize that we have to
love ourselves.
Everything starts withaccepting yourself, right where
you are and knowing where you'reat and, yes, where you hope to
be, but not to beat yourself upbecause you haven't gotten there
(00:51):
yet.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Hey, everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue the
podcast.
Join me, your host, deniseGorin, as we explore the ins and
outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together, we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you with our adultchildren.
Together, we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
(01:12):
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when to
bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Welcome back to Bite yourTongue the podcast.
We're back.
Sort of I'm Denise and I'mflying solo today, making
scheduling interviews a littlebit easier, while I might bring
(01:32):
Ellen or Kirsten back as a guesthost later on, for right now
it's just me.
Connie Gorin-Fisher is stillhere as our amazing producer and
audio engineer.
As always, we're not stickingto a regular schedule.
We're on a mission to find thevery best guests, not just fill
slots.
But before we dive in withtoday's episodes, I have some
exciting personal news.
(01:53):
I welcomed my first grandchildin April, a beautiful baby boy.
I was able to hold him when hewas just four hours old.
It was truly magical.
I took tons of advice from ourepisode with the grandmother
doula, though I definitelyoverstayed my welcome.
I've learned so much and I'llshare a lot of that in a future
(02:15):
episode, but for now, let's diveinto today's topic.
Today's episode truly is a mustlisten.
We're exploring a crucial topicour role as parents and how it
shapes our relationships withour adult children.
This is it everyone an episodeeveryone must listen to and
share.
(02:35):
Today's guest is someone I'vebeen wanting to talk to for a
long time Dr Lindsay Gibson.
She's a clinical psychologistand author of the wildly popular
book Adult Children ofEmotionally Immature Parents.
This book is a New York Timesbestseller and has been
published in 37 languages.
I read the article about herthat appeared on the very front
(02:58):
page of the New York TimesMagazine section I think it was
in May and I thought now this issomeone I really need to
interview.
I'll share a link to that storyin my episode notes, but before
you start thinking, wait, isthat me?
Don't worry, you're not alone.
In fact, that's exactly whatwe're going to explore today how
even the most well-meaningparents can sometimes fall into
(03:21):
emotionally immature parents,and what we can do to grow
beyond them and show updifferently for adult kids.
I saw some of myself as anemotionally immature parent
during those early days of beinga grandparent.
Dr Gibson has more than 30years of experience helping
people untangle complicatedfamily dynamics, and today she's
(03:43):
here to help us look inwardwith curiosity, not judgment.
This episode is aboutself-awareness, growth and maybe
a few light bulb moments.
So grab your coffee, maybe ajournal to take notes and let's
dive in.
Welcome, dr Gibson.
For listeners who might not befamiliar with your work, can you
(04:03):
explain a little bit about whatyou mean by emotionally
immature parents?
What are some of the key traits, and I'd love you to give us
some examples.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Well, emotional maturity.
I like to think of that asbeing on a continuum, much as we
think of someone's intellectualdevelopment or their social
development.
Think of someone's intellectualdevelopment or their social
development.
We start out at a very earlyage one way, and hopefully we
develop along and become moremature as we get older.
But that continuum ofdevelopment, it has a movable
(04:37):
marker.
Depending on how good we'refeeling, how resourced we are,
for instance, if you are sick orfatigued or stressed, your
level of emotional maturity isgoing to slide toward the more
emotionally immature level.
(04:58):
Okay, it's true for anybody, Idon't care how emotionally
mature you are.
So I'm careful in my books totalk about relatively
emotionally mature people,sufficiently adequately
emotionally mature, becausethere's no pinnacle that
somebody reaches and then hangsout there for the rest of their
(05:19):
life.
We're always, whoever you are,we're always struggling to
maintain our relationships andreally our state of being in as
mature a level as we can muster.
But for sure, all of us aregoing to act in ways that we
(05:39):
regret and ways that we lookback on with shame or, you know,
just wishing that we had had itmore together.
So when we think aboutemotional immaturity in the
sense that I write about, andyou have to keep in mind too,
denise, that I'm writing as atherapist who is seeing people
(06:01):
that are coming to me, who, inthis case, you know, given our
topic, probably would be theadult children of those parents
that are coming in.
Once in a blue moon I might havea parent contact me about
getting help for their end ofthings, but mostly I'm hearing
(06:23):
the experience of the personwho's had difficulty with the
emotionally immature parent.
So here's a difficulty thatthey tend to have.
One is that they feelinvalidated and two, they feel
controlled or diminished ordismissed.
They feel that they have notbeen able to be their full, true
(06:48):
selves in their relationshipwith their parent, that the love
and acceptance that they gotwas quite conditional.
And I don't mean conditional,like you have to get all A's.
I mean conditional also on thebasis of how that parent was
feeling that day.
(07:09):
You know, was the parent ableto be present enough with that
child that day because of theirown issues, their own problems?
So there's a sense for theseadult children that they have
had to hide their true feelingsand their true thoughts for fear
of upsetting or angering theirparent.
(07:32):
The idea is that when you arerelatively emotionally immature,
you probably have had troublelearning how to manage,
recognize your feelings, youremotions.
So you tend to get reactiveinstead of pausing to respond to
(07:54):
what your child is doing orsaying.
And you also have trouble withstress.
Stress tends to disorganize aperson who is more along the
lines of the emotionallyimmature.
It's just something that's veryhard for them.
And, of course, how do we allact when we're stressed?
(08:16):
We act in ways that we're sorryfor later.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Okay, Would you add anxiety to stress when you're
anxious and stressed, yeah, whenyou get stressed, you get
anxious, you're anxious.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
This is really where the maturity comes in.
Depending on what kinds ofcoping mechanisms you typically
use, that's going to determinehow productively or how well
you're able to handle conflictor some kind of disagreement
with that other person.
So the stress causes a kind ofa feeling of being off balance.
(08:53):
That creates anxiety.
They feel disoriented, theyfeel out of control, they don't
know what to do.
By definition, I mean, that'slike the little child doesn't
know what to do when somethinghappens that upsets them, and so
they tend to lose emotionalcontrol.
A very young solution to that isto blame the other person and
(09:18):
to get very reactive and it getsinto that well, you did this or
I only did that because I getvery defensive, and that of
course you know doesn't go wellwhen you're trying to work out a
problem with another person.
So we get that kind ofreactivity and the anxiety and
(09:40):
the stress that people feel whenthey have some level of
emotional immaturity is so allconsuming that they end up
acting in a very egocentric way,that is, they just can't get
their mind off of how thingsaffected them.
They're taken over by theiremotional response to situations
(10:02):
.
They might prefer that theydidn't, but maybe they never
learned, or maybe they never hadthe opportunity to have
somebody calm them down andteach them how to get a handle
on their reactions so that theydon't say or do something that
alienates someone.
You can imagine what that doesto your empathy for the person
(10:24):
that you're in the relationshipwith.
It makes it very hard to haveempathy for them, because you
get very fixated on your ownreactivity, your own anxiety,
your fears, your sense offeeling lost or feeling out of
control, and that makes itreally hard for you to pay
(10:44):
attention to what the otherperson's feeling.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Oh, all of that makes so much sense.
So put yourself in the place ofan adult parent now who and as
you've said in many of yourother interviews, every parent
is flawed.
We've all said and done thingsthat we know we shouldn't have
said and done.
Now you're in a situation whereyour adult child is saying
something to you and the storythat they're telling you goes
(11:08):
completely against what you sawhappen.
You don't want to be that.
Well, I said this and you saidthat.
What is the best way to respond?
Because part of you wants tosay but you told me to do that,
and they're saying why did youdo that?
How do you respond morematurely when a conversation
like that occurs?
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah, well, of course it's very threatening
emotionally threatening whensomebody that is the world to
you I mean your own child, thatyou, you know so badly, want a
good relationship with, whenthey're telling you something
that you did wrong and youremember that you did not do
that or you did the opposite ofthat, or whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Or you thought, you did, you tried your very best.
Right Thought you did yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Your intention was good, right.
So we all tend to interpret ourown behavior according to what
our intention was, not itseffect on the other person.
So we think that if we explainour intention, the other person
will go.
Of course.
Now I understand.
Sorry, mom, didn't mean tobring that up.
(12:14):
I guess I'm wrong, but thatdoesn't work because it's not
about what you intended, it'sabout what the effect was.
So, the first thing I wouldrecommend to somebody is keep
your own history straight inyour mind, write it down in your
(12:34):
journal after you get off thecall or you have the
conversation, to write down youraccount of what happened and
what your motivation was, sothat you take care of that part
of you that's saying yes, but Iwas intending to do this other
thing.
I really am a good person.
I didn't mean to Save it foryour journal, that
(12:57):
self-validation, but when youtry to get them to see what your
intention was, you're nowexpecting them to switch horses
and have empathy for you.
Right Like you're saying putyourself in my shoes.
This is what I intended tohappen.
(13:19):
So it's for the you know.
For the time being, if you wantto try to work something out
with your adult child, lay asidewhat your intention was and lay
aside the unfairness of beingaccused of something that you
don't think you did because wegot bigger fish to fry.
We're trying to have arelationship, or improve the
(13:41):
relationship, with that adultchild, which means that you
listen to them like a therapistin a way, meaning that you don't
have judgment on what they'retelling you or your own point of
view.
You're just trying tounderstand things from their
point of view.
You're trying to put yourselfin their shoes and you'll notice
(14:04):
that with your best friends,with your closest people, that's
what they do when they listento you.
They are trying to understandwhat this was like for you and
that makes us love them, becausewe all want to be understood,
understood.
That situation, where you have adifferent memory of an
(14:26):
interchange, is so important tovalidate it for yourself.
I am going I can't wait towrite this down because I
remember what really happened,but this is not a court of law.
We do not have a stenographerwho is taking down.
What matters is the feelingthat is going on between the two
(14:50):
of you and if your adult childis trying to tell you something
that bothered them, it worksbest if you lay that other
courtroom stuff aside and justtry to listen for their
experience and let them knowthat you got their emotional
experience and you see it fromtheir point of view.
(15:11):
Worry about whether it's trueor not later.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, all of it makes perfect sense, I think.
The only thing is, I think witha friend there is a back and
forth much more so, and I wonderwhat is the role of the adult
child in being mature in thiskind of situation?
What is the role of the adultchild in being mature in this
kind of situation, allowing themom or the father to express
their feelings?
I ran into a parent the otherday who listens to my podcast
(15:37):
all the time and she said to mewhy is it always on us?
Why do we have to be the onesthat are always walking on
eggshells or working to makethis relationship strong?
What role does the adult childhave to take in this.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
They don't have to take any role in terms of just
thinking about interpersonalrelationships, like if you have
two people and one desperatelywants the relationship and the
other one you know they're,they've got one foot out the
door Right.
So when you start as the personwho is feeling left or feeling
(16:17):
rejected, when you startasserting your rights and you
start thinking about what theyought to be feeling responsible
for too to kind of even this upyou're losing sight of the
opportunity that you have,because you're being given an
opportunity to bite your tongueand you're not doing that
(16:44):
because you're knuckling underor you know you're a weak, spine
, spineless person.
You're doing it strategically.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Gosh yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Okay, yeah, because that is going to get you more of
the result.
That you want is a continuationof the relationship and maybe
some willingness and interest onyour adult child's part to keep
trying to communicate with you.
That's what you're after.
So, I understand, gosh.
(17:14):
I totally understand thefeeling like why do I have to be
the one who's doing all thework?
I would just posit as a thingto consider, possibly, that from
that adult child's point ofview and I'm speaking as the
therapist of these people theyfeel like they have been doing a
huge amount of emotional workon your behalf their whole life.
(17:37):
They have felt like they had towatch what they said, or dad
would get upset.
They have to, you know, nottell their parent what they
really did or what they reallythought, because it would be a
moral outrage.
They have to do whatever theirparents said, or else they would
be failing a moral obligationand therefore they would be a
(17:58):
bad person.
I mean, the parent, of course,didn't see any of this, because
they are the ones who are in theposition of authority.
For them, it's going to feellike that relationship through
childhood and adolescence Well,maybe not adolescence, but for a
long time the relationship wentsmoothly but they're not taking
(18:21):
into account, they're the oneswith all the power for those
first 12 years, or 15.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Well, 18 usually.
Usually, when you're paying forthings, you have more power.
That's true.
When they have to live underyour roof, you have a little
more power.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I agree.
It's like how would you treatsomeone that you wanted to, that
you liked that you wanted to begood friends with?
You would be minding your P'sand Q's.
You would have your super tunedempathy out.
You would have your antenna upbecause you would not want to
inadvertently say or do thingsthat are going to alienate this
(18:59):
attractive potential friend.
Quote unquote.
If I were trying to set up theopportunity to be better friends
with this person, it's going tobe pretty far down the road
before I'm going to tackle anykind of conflictual stuff with
that person, if ever.
I'm going to be, you know,trying to facilitate our
(19:23):
connection.
We all know how to do that.
I mean nobody, well, I guesssome people do and they end up
not having very many friends.
But most of us are very cannyabout what we have to do in
terms of our own self-controland self-observation in order to
have friends, and what we wantto do with our adult children is
(19:45):
we want to be peers with them.
I mean, that's the whole,that's the secret.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
You mean I have to get dressed and put makeup on
when I see my kids now, no, I'mjust kidding.
I'm thinking about, you know, anew friend.
You do try to look nicer evenwhen you're seeing a new friend.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yes, you do.
Yes, you do Because you are inthat self-reflective place.
Like how am I doing collectiveplace?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Like how am I doing?
How am I doing?
Okay, Am I putting my best footforward.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Am I making this a pleasant experience for this new
friend?
Will they want to come back and, you know, go to the movies
with me again, or have lunch, orwhatever I mean?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
it makes perfect sense.
Why does this make such perfectsense and we don't think about
it?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Oh, because we've had the luxury of the family role
thing for years, where we weregiven our role, we were given
our authority.
They adored us, they loved us.
They're so cute, they're so fun.
We had all of that withoutreally having to do a whole lot
(20:52):
of emotional work in terms ofmaintaining the relationship.
I don't mean we didn't have alot of emotional work to do, but
I mean in terms of likeworrying about whether or not
your child's going to love you.
You know you don't have toworry about that for the first
teen years.
They need you.
You are the most importantperson in their life and if you
have trouble giving that up andtransitioning out of that into a
(21:18):
peer relationship, I thinkthat's when you begin to feel
the friction with your adultchild.
They grow up and have their ownlives.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Your book was published in 2015.
So it's 10 years later now.
Suddenly, it's become sopopular.
What has changed about ourculture now that everyone's
talking about thisadult-parent-child relationship?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yes, I think we have to keep in mind that the book
really took off.
Started to take off around 2018, 2020.
Ok, that coincides with whenpodcasts started.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Oh OK.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
We already had an explosion of self-help books.
The psychoeducation of thepublic was well underway.
Then we had podcasts on top ofthat and then we had COVID, you
know, which made everybody evenmore attentive to podcasts, and
(22:22):
I think it sort of got afoothold in that world, because
I know how many of thosepodcasts and things I did.
So I think that was part of it.
But the other part of it isthere is, I think, a shift in
the age that we're in.
It's like industrial age,technological age.
(22:44):
Now we're in the informationage.
In terms of our intimate familyrelationships, we were in the
family age and I think now weare in the self-awareness or
individual consciousness age.
Is that good or bad?
I think it's going to be verygood, but I think the transition
(23:05):
is going to be already is veryconfusing to people, very
disorienting and probably willbe quite conflictual for some
time, because there's atransition from this would be in
the family age.
We know who we are by our roles,by what we do for a living, who
(23:28):
we are to each other.
It's quite externally definedand we define our worth from
that.
With all of this psychologicaleducation, the popularization of
podcast information, et cetera,we are now finding ourselves to
be exploring our ownconsciousness, our own
(23:51):
individuality, in a way that,you know I don't know if it's
ever been like this.
It's really remarkable becausepeople now are reading books,
listening to podcasts andthinking of themselves.
They're processing their ownemotional experiences and then,
(24:11):
as a result of that, we'regetting this tremendous
vocabulary and conceptualframework of all kinds of
psychological issues.
We're plugging ourselves intothat as a way of understanding
our experiences and deducing whowe are and developing our
self-worth.
It's not coming from our rolesand our family relationships
(24:34):
anymore.
I think we have gone past apoint where, the more conscious
you become, try to becomeunconscious.
When you've become conscious ofsomething, what does that mean?
Try to not notice somethingonce somebody's pointed it out
to you.
What does that mean?
(25:12):
That now into account?
It doesn't just disappear.
Okay, and that's a good thing,because if I learn that when I
do this it hurts me or I get introuble or whatever, I can't any
longer be unaware of theeffects of that behavior.
I'm conscious of it now.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I'm aware of it.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
But when you're talking about this in intimate
relationships like with yourchild, that is a very hard kind
of education.
It's hard on the self-esteem.
It's hard to get your headaround it.
It's hard to put yourself asidelong enough to see it from the
other person's point of view.
It's very difficult.
(25:48):
But I think it's going to be agood thing because when two
self-aware or relativelyself-aware people talk to each
other or have a relationshipwith each other, the
relationship takes on a depthand an intimacy that you won't
find in relationships that aredefined much more superficially,
(26:12):
according to roles or socialthings or gossip or whatever
more superficial things.
So I think it's going to begood.
I just think it's going to bevery hard on the people who
aren't aware that this ishappening.
It's like this change camealong in the dead of night, you
know, and we woke up the nextmorning and, all of a sudden,
(26:37):
the things that we assumed wewould always have in terms of
our position or ourrelationships now our adult
child is questioning that andthey're questioning what they
want to do with their lives orkind of relationships they want,
and they're telling us about it.
We're still thinking wait aminute, you know, I'm the mom or
(26:59):
I'm the dad.
What's happening here?
We don't have a reference point, but if we can be aware that
maybe this shift has occurredand we just didn't get the
postcard in the mail coming.
Next month, your child is goingto start self-actualizing in a
way that's going to be very hardfor you.
If we don't have thatpreparation, all we can do is
(27:22):
respond defensively.
If we learn about some of thesethings, we can respond in ways
that help us to get a handle onour own defensiveness and our
own fears.
There's a book that's going tobe coming out I think it's in
September.
It's called Parents haveFeelings Too.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Finally.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Yes, isn't that a great title?
Yeah, and I think it'savailable for pre-order.
Yeah, and it's.
I think it's available forpre-order.
But she has, like, this wholesystem for how to catch yourself
in a reactive mode and figureout if you're being defensive
and what your true feelings arethat you're scared of in the
moment that's making you reactdefensively.
(28:06):
And then how do you deal withthose feelings and process them
so that you can respond to youradult child in an authentic and
validating way and begin tobuild a real relationship with
them on that basis.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Wow.
So as I listened to you andthis is going to sound defensive
, I think so, don't judge mewhen I grew up, all the roles
were in place.
Everything you said I realizedwas my relationship with my
parents.
I was their daughter, they weremy parents and I just did
everything I could for them tomake them happy.
(28:44):
Now I think also our generationwas the first generation to
acknowledge our children'sfeelings and emotions.
My generation of being raised,it was like get over it.
There weren't therapists onevery corner.
My generation encouraged ourchildren to express themselves,
probably had more children intherapy than any generation ever
(29:04):
before.
And yet now we're surprisedwhen they use that therapy and
know how to set boundaries anduse it on us.
We now had to have thatrelationship with our parents
and now learn a whole.
Nother way to have arelationship with our adult
children.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yes, and it's, oh my gosh, it's so hard because
there's so much.
I mean, first of all, it's hardto undo your natural defenses,
which, incidentally, happenautomatically, involuntarily,
unconsciously.
We don't do defenses because wewant to.
The beauty of a defense is itkicks in before you suffer.
(29:46):
A psychological defense is nogood if it waits until you're
feeling shame or guilt orwhatever and then it kicks in.
No, it kicks in before you feelany of that and you find
yourself becoming indignant orangry or defensive.
Okay, so that you don't feelthose awful feelings.
But in family situations likeyou're describing and of course
(30:09):
most of us in this generationgrew up like that you don't have
any idea how to process youremotions.
Nobody was helping you learn toput words on it, how to express
it in ways that werenon-damaging.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
In fact, we were shut down.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Shut down Absolutely.
If you had an outburst, youwere made to feel very bad about
that.
We didn't get any practice inthat at all.
But what you were saying,denise, about now, we did all
this for our kids and welistened to their feelings and
now they're coming back andwe're being treated like this.
(30:50):
I was thinking about that verything as I was preparing for our
talk today and I was thinking,you know you could give yourself
a pat on the back that youraised a kid, that instead of
smothering and suppressing theirwhole individuality and
(31:11):
emotional life, they are settinga boundary.
They are telling you no, theyare saying I need a break.
There is something that maybeyou did that enabled them to
have the courage and the faiththat they could take this step
(31:33):
toward their own individuation,their own self-development.
Maybe you did something rightin the sense of giving them that
confidence.
Ultimately, Now they may havehad to go to therapy to work
through.
You know their anxieties andwhatever, whatever.
But you know, maybe they hadenough love to give them a sense
(31:57):
that I can survive if dad and I, mom and I are on the outs for
a while.
There was a great quote fromGeorge Valiant, who did the
Harvard Men's Study for 50 years, a longitudinal study and they
looked at what went on inchildren's backgrounds of these
men that were studied and howdid it end up showing up in
(32:20):
their adult life what reallymattered to their development.
This was a study with innercity youth, so they were a lot
of them were were quitedisadvantaged.
What they found was that thegood stuff they got as children
really counted more thananything that went wrong.
I just love that.
(32:42):
I love that Because I thinkit's.
I mean, I think we can see thetruth of that.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
You know, it's funny that you say that I'm loving
this conversation and I thinkyou are completely brilliant,
everything you're bringing tothe table.
Recently, I think, I told you Ihad a new grandbaby, a new
grandson, and I was spendingtime with my daughter and when I
got home she sent me a text andit was very I don't want to say
curt, but I could tell a verystrict boundary was being set
and I replied, saying I'm soproud of you, you know how to
(33:11):
set your boundaries that workfor you.
And she replied I was raised byyou.
And she put a little heart andI said well, I still struggle
with it.
And she replied I guess I dotoo.
I was a little offended by thisbump, but I thought wait a
minute, I wish I would have beenable to do that.
So I guess I replied properlybecause I was like wow, yeah,
(33:34):
this is firm on me, but sheneeds to say what she needs to
say.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Exactly, and what you're describing is an
emotionally intimateconversation where you each are
sharing a little piece you knowit's not a diatribe by either
way.
You're sharing a little pieceof something true about your
emotional experience or yourpast.
Okay, and you went to thatdeeper level with her and stayed
(34:06):
there for a little while, andthat I mean that's what builds
stronger relationships, right.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I want to talk a little bit about estrangement,
because you brought it up thatmaybe it's okay to have a little
bit of this, having youngadults come and talk to you.
There always are two sides to astory, so what you're hearing
from them is how they perceivethis situation.
When do you make a judgmentthat, yes, it was an emotionally
you know immature parent andyou were faced with these things
(34:36):
, or that every parent is flawedand here are some ways to move
on?
I worry that adult kids arebeing pushed to move away from
that parent that might be sayingthings that aren't appropriate
rather than trying to mend andimprove that relationship.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
If a therapist is doing that, they're not a good
therapist.
Someone comes in, tells you aproblem and you say in effect,
yes, whatever you say, I'm onboard with you and yes, you
shouldn't see your parentsanymore and yes, you should cut
them out of your life.
I mean that's crazy.
(35:12):
My goal in therapy is for thisperson to at some point get
enough of their ownself-development going and
enough self-awareness andself-confidence and
self-knowledge that they can runtheir own life and they can
(35:34):
consult their own inner guidance, and that inner guidance will
be in accord with reality.
Okay, I'm not interested insomebody just following whatever
they thought of.
Next.
It's like does it stack up?
Is it accurate?
Does it reflect what's going on?
Tell me more about that.
You're trying to find out asmuch as you can from a one-sided
(35:57):
story.
What went on For someone to takeat face value what somebody is
telling you about their parentand then to, on the limited
amount of data, to suggest thatthey should estrange themselves
from their parent.
I mean this is such areductionistic, inaccurate
(36:22):
picture of what goes on in goodtherapy, and I'm not denying
that there are therapists outthere who are irresponsible or
have a hobby horse to ride aboutthis or working at their own
unresolved parent issues throughtheir patients.
I understand that that happens,but to sort of paint therapy as
(36:43):
turning adult children againsttheir parents I think is
probably very inaccurate.
And it begs the question whatdo you do when a patient comes
in and they are in distress andthey tell you what the parents
said, and they tell you how itfelt and you're realizing that
(37:07):
they are being made to feeldepressed or anxious or whatever
because of this pattern thatthey've got going with the
parent.
If you just said, well, cutthis person out of your life and
you'll be all better.
I mean, how sophisticated isthat?
Not very.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
There are people I've interviewed who have said some
therapists will even help thepatient write a letter to their
parents explaining why they'recutting them out of their life.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Well, let's say that that did happen.
I would hope that the reasonthe therapist was helping the
adult child write that letterwas to help the child think
about what it was that theyreally wanted to get across.
Sometimes, we read each other,we read our emails to friends or
partners to say you know, did Igo too far?
(37:56):
If the therapist is being usedas a sounding board or as a sort
of an objective third party,that makes sense to me.
That you would take somethinglike that to your therapist
because it's very emotionallyrelevant and it's very important
in that person's life.
You would also, in that case,want to ask the person if you
(38:19):
say it this way, how would youfeel if someone said that to you
?
Not in a judgy way, like howwould you feel, but like you
know, what would that be likefor you to receive this?
And what is your goal?
Do you want your parent to beable to listen to what you're
saying?
Well, yes, I do.
Okay, so if someone approachedyou and said it this way, would
(38:42):
that make you more or less ableto hear what they were saying?
And they might say, well, Iprobably would get mad or I
probably wouldn't listen, orwhatever.
Yeah, so what is it that youreally want to tell them here?
If that client is speaking outof defensiveness and fear or
guilt or whatever outrage,whatever it is, if they're
(39:04):
speaking out of that, it's goingto be very prickly, it's going
to be very sharp, it's going toput the other person down and
they're not going to be able tohear it.
So what we want to do is wewant to help them get beneath
that defensiveness and get itthe real thing.
Like you know maybe it might be, mom when I tried to tell you
(39:28):
how something made me feel, Iended up feeling like there was
something wrong with me.
I ended up feeling ashamed thatI had even thought that thought.
Now we're doing emotionalintimacy, now I'm sharing my
real feelings with you and thatparent, if they can hold the
(39:48):
line for a minute and justabsorb that.
That was that adult child'sexperience in the past and have
empathy for that, have somecompassion for what that must
have been like for a kid, forwhat that must have been like
for a kid.
Now we are in the land ofemotional intimacy.
We are now sharing with eachother what our experiences were.
(40:10):
I don't think I ever sat downwith somebody to go over a
letter or email to a parent.
Yeah, not in a reviewing kindof way.
I've had a couple of peoplecome in and read me what they've
already sent, but I figuredthat's their communication,
that's their genuinecommunication to their parent.
(40:30):
And what we try to look for iswhat is the outcome that you
want?
If you want them to understandtheir ways of communicating,
they're probably going to workbetter than others communicating
, they're probably going to workbetter than others.
If you want to set a boundary,and that's it, let's do it in a
way that really says what youwant to say and is going to set
(40:55):
it up for whatever the next stepis that you want?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Makes sense.
Two other quick things I wantto talk about, and then we're
going to wrap this up.
We've mentioned it, but I wantyou to sum it up.
You talk a lot about is thedifference between surface level
contact and emotionalconnection.
We've discussed that a littlebit, but I want you to give like
a concrete example.
And then also you talk aboutself-awareness how parents can
build awareness and grow, nomatter what age in their life.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah.
So for the surface level stuff,I would say, up until I don't
know, you know, maybe 30 yearsago, surface level is where it's
at back then I mean, if youlook at like, if you ever watch
TCM, the old movies, gosh, it isso superficial, it is so the
(41:49):
interactions between the people.
I mean it's very glamorous,it's very clever.
The real emotional sharingstuff that wasn't part of the
culture, all kind of playingroles in a way that
entertainment was not abouthearing about these deeper
conversations like we have insome movies today.
(42:11):
So that surface level thing wasvery culturally appropriate and
desirable.
Now, when we're trying to bemore true, more genuine and
authentic in our relationshipswith each other, that's going to
require again this willingnessto take the other person's
viewpoint, willingness toself-reflect like could I have
(42:35):
done anything that may havecontributed to this, and that
feeling of what can I do now torepair this?
How can I be receptive enoughthat we might get to the point
where maybe we could do somerepair with each other.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Can you ever ask your adult child like I feel like I
said too much here, what can Ido to make this better, or how
can you approach them if you'rebacktracking on a situation that
happened?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah Well, I'll give you an example from my life.
When my son turned 18, I sathim down at the kitchen table
and I said I just want toapologize to you.
I did the best I could, but Iwas so green I didn't know what
I was doing In this instance.
(43:25):
Whatever it was I said and didthe wrong things.
I didn't want to do thatbecause I love you with all my
heart, but I know what I did andI'm really sorry.
He said oh, mom, don't worryabout it.
I'm sure it made me stronger.
And I said no.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
So it always is good to acknowledge whatever it was
you thought you might havemessed up.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Think about it.
If someone came to you and said, Denise, remember that thing.
I said I think I really wenttoo far.
I've always regretted that Isaid it to you that way.
What would be the effect on you?
Speaker 2 (44:08):
I guess it depends on what they said.
I would say, yes, it reallyhurt me, and I might explain
more to them why it hurt.
I'm glad you figured this out.
It was a very hurtful thing.
I value our relationship enoughthat I kept going, but I
appreciate you talking about itnow.
You talking about it now.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
And wouldn't your first response be almost joy
that after all this time thisperson has cared enough about
your relationship and thoughtabout it that they're coming
back to you with an apology?
I won't project here, but myfirst reaction would be joy.
Can't believe that theyremember this and that it
(44:46):
mattered to them.
I hope my son felt a little bitof that.
For me it felt like, yeah, onthe day he became an adult he
needed to hear that I didn'thandle some things right, and I
wanted him to know that.
I realized that because Iwanted us to be close.
And how can you be close if youhaven't, you know, done that
(45:07):
kind of inventory on where youmay have fallen down on your
side of things?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
How about the self-awareness?
How can we be more aware ofourselves and how our actions
are affecting our relationshipwith our adult children?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Yeah, well, first we have to realize that we have
absolutely been trained out ofthat.
Okay, just like what you weredescribing, denise.
I mean self-awareness that was.
I don't even I wonder if maybe,maybe people back in the
forties that went to ashrams orsomething would know what that
meant, but but most people don'thave any experience in that.
(45:45):
So when we're thinking aboutself-awareness, we're thinking
about getting back in touch withour true self, and what may
have happened to us emotionallythat made us become scared and
defensive, may have made usoverbearing, controlling
whatever kind of self-protectivething we learned to do.
(46:08):
If we can go back and becomeaware of our own emotional and
psychological functioning, thenwe have the opportunity to have
that.
Self-reflection gives us theopportunity to then have empathy
for what that might have feltlike to the other person who was
on the receiving end of that.
(46:30):
You can do that through therapy, of course.
I mean that's a great way to doit.
But you can do it throughreading, you can do it through
contemplation, you can do itthrough talking with a friend
who might be willing to give yougentle feedback, that process
of self-awareness and the thingsthat we may regret that we've
done.
It's all about psychologicalgrowth.
(46:51):
You have to have a little bitof faith that there is such a
thing as psychological growthand that people are always
trying to do that in one way oranother.
They're trying to resolve theirold stuff, they're trying to
work it through.
I believe that because I seethat as a motivating force in
all my successfulpsychotherapies that that person
(47:14):
knew something was wrong andthey've been trying to figure it
out and trying to become moreself-aware and get more control
over it so they can have happierlives.
And that's really you know.
If you want to get realpractical about it, we're
looking for how to have happierlives.
If you're going to haveintimate relationships as a part
(47:34):
of your happy life which bydefinition you would then you
have to be able to take a lookat yourself.
I was going to say that but youknow what, for heaven's sake?
Speaker 2 (47:45):
you know, the whole time I was reading your book,
the thing that stuck out to methe most was the importance of
self-esteem, the importance ofbuilding that in yourself so you
then can create the strengthand self-awareness to create
those relationships around you.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Yes, I would just add to that that in order to have
the self-esteem, you have tohave the self-knowledge
Awareness and knowledge.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
So what's the difference between knowledge and
awareness?
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Okay.
So knowledge would be.
I mean, this is what people getout of longer term
psychotherapy they come tounderstand their reactions,
their feelings, their thoughts.
They get to know themselves.
Oh, you know, when my childsays to me mom, I wish that you
(48:37):
wouldn't do that.
And we come to realize that thereason I get all huffy and walk
out is because I am terrifiedthat they don't love me anymore,
that they won't want to haveanything to do with me if I get
scared and insecure, so I'mgoing to act like I'm the
(48:58):
injured party.
That's very complex, but whenyou get to know yourself and you
understand oh, that's how Idefend myself psychologically
from these bad feelings of shameor loss or fear you gain the
ability to decide how you'regoing to respond.
(49:22):
How you're going to respondbecause you will know oh, I'm
having that scared feeling, I'mafraid they're not going to love
me anymore.
Okay now, what am I going to dowith that?
I'm not going to walk out, I'mjust going to have my hurt
feelings.
I'm going to sit here and havemy hurt feelings.
I'm not going to tell them that.
I'm just going to get throughthis.
That's self knowledge, rightthere.
(49:44):
Practical application of knowingor coming to know yourself and
how your psyche works.
Self-awareness is allowingyourself to become aware of
those feelings, aware of thosethoughts.
I'm sitting here, I'm havingthe thought like I'm just going
(50:04):
to stand up and say, well, ifyou're going to be that way
about it, I'm going home.
That's my thought, and myfeeling is outrage, indignation.
That she would tell me, mom,stop doing that or don't do that
.
Okay, I know, I am aware ofthat.
Now I'm going to apply myself-knowledge to say and the
result of that is going to be afight.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
And what do I?
Speaker 1 (50:26):
really want here.
I want my relationship with mydaughter.
So what's my option?
Sit here and feel hurt andcarry on as best I can and worry
about what to do about it later, but at least don't do those
other things.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
Well, thank you so much.
As you know, at the end ofevery episode, I ask my guests
to leave our listeners with twothings they want them to take
away from this episode.
What would those two things befrom you, Dr Gibson?
Speaker 1 (50:53):
and self-knowledge, that you're improving your
self-worth, which is going tomake you a steadier, more
(51:18):
desirable partner in any kind ofrelationship, is dependent on
you putting the time into yourown self-development, getting to
know yourself and getting tohave a feeling of compassion and
self-worth about yourself.
That's going to make you akinder, gentler person with your
adult child.
And then, secondly, I would say, how would you treat a newfound
(51:40):
friend that you wanted to keepin your life?
Just think of it that way.
This is not your kid.
There are two things wrong withthat phrase my child and your
kid.
Yeah, my, they're not yours.
You gave birth to them, you putthem through college, whatever,
and they don't belong to you.
(52:02):
And child, they're not a childanymore.
We have a word for parents.
We have a word for children.
We have a word for adolescents.
We have a word for young adults.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
We do not have a word for adult child, you better
come up with one.
That's your next book.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
I would love to come up with it Once we sort of
redefine what we're doing astrying to keep a good friend or
trying to make a new friend.
We're maybe limited to thingslike if we think of them as this
cherished is separate andindividuated from ourselves, and
(52:48):
that's really where you want toget to in order to have that
adult relationship with them.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Well, thank you so much.
You have no idea how great thisis going to be for my audience.
You really sum things up insuch a beautiful way, so thank
you so much.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
Oh, thank you so much for having me Total pleasure.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Well, that's a wrap.
Wow, I learned so much fromthis episode.
I think all of us.
It's hard, it's hard work, butI think she makes a lot of sense
and I've always wondered why wecan't just be ourselves and be
real.
But our kids don't belong to usand they're establishing
themselves as separate beings,separate families, and learning
(53:31):
how to nurture thoserelationships and not take
things so personally and work onour self-awareness and
self-knowledge seems to be thekey.
We have another episode we'regoing to be recording very
shortly, and it's with anotherperson I'm very excited about.
I read an article in the NewYork Times called what I Tell
Mothers who Feel Rejected bytheir Adult Children, by Rachel
(53:51):
Glick.
It was in the Wall StreetJournal.
I love this article and I'llshare it when we talk to her,
but I can't wait for thatepisode too.
I hope you enjoyed it as muchas I did and I hope you'll enjoy
our coming episodes.
As you know, once again, we'renot dropping regularly, just
when we found great people totalk to.
Follow us on social media.
Please send us your questionsand possible guests to
(54:13):
biteyourtonguepodcast atgmailcom.
Visit our website atbiteyourtonguepodcastcom and
please think about supporting us.
We're keeping all our episodeslive.
We pay for all the platforms,we pay for our recording
platforms, so any little bit ofmoney helps.
If you go to our websitebiteyourtonguepodcastcom, you
can find the donate or sponsorus and you can also send by
(54:36):
Venmo.
Thanks so much for listeningand, as you heard from this
episode and many others,sometimes you just have to bite
your tongue.
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