February 10, 2025 • 47 mins
🌟 A listener wrote to us about Tina Gilbertson, the guest in today's episode. She told us that Tina "saved her life." The pain and guilt that parents go through when estranged from their adult children is unimaginable.Â
We asked Tina what really is estrangement? Is it a troubled relationship? Is it silence? "No, she said: "It could also be you talk every day. But maybe there's a constant tension, or you're always getting into little conflicts, and sometimes you go apart and have to be apart for a while, and then you come back together." This episode is about  building a stronger and less stressful relationship with your adult children And we all need that!
We talk about:
- Understanding the relationship between self-perception and parent-child connection
- Defining estrangement and its various forms
• The importance of addressing emotional distances and insecurities
• Steps to take when facing estrangement: pause, reflect, research, and reach out - Effective methods for navigating difficult conversations
- Resources and support available through the Reconnection Club
- The ongoing journey of healing and self-improvement in parent-child dynamics
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send all ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com. Remeber to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Support US! Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select SUPPORT US. You can buy a "virtual" cup of coffee.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Your relationship with yourself is the foundation
of your relationship with yourchild or children.
If there's a problem in yourrelationship with your child or
children, it may indicate thatthere's something to look at
within you, a way that maybethere's a disconnect inside or
there's self-criticism, stuffthat doesn't quite come together
within you.
(00:24):
So it is never the wrong thingto focus on your relationship
with yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to Bite your Tongue,the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm Denise and I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will
join us as we explore the insand outs of building healthy
relationships with our adultchildren.
Together.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
We'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Get ready to dive deep and learn, to build and
nurture deep connections withour adult children and, of
course, when, to bite ourtongues.
So let's get started.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Welcome, Tina.
We're thrilled to have you withus.
I think we should start by youtelling our listeners a little
bit about how you got into thiswhole arena and specialty of
helping parents who areestranged from their adult
children.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, I really just fell into it by accident.
As a therapist, I had all theseadult clients who came in for
various reasons, but they oftenmentioned that they were not
happy with their parents.
They didn't want to go home forholidays, they were exasperated
by their parents contactingthem and all of this stuff.
(01:41):
And when I asked them about it,you know what do your parents
say when you tell them, oh, Ican't tell them, or oh, they
don't get it, or there was, itwas.
I became aware that there wasthis big disconnect between my
clients and their parents andyou know it's not ethical for me
to go reach out to theirparents and say, hey, guess what
?
I had a website, I was writingarticles and I wrote an article
(02:02):
called what to do when someonewon't talk to you because, by
the way, my clients were alsohaving trouble in relationships
with, with the silent treatmentand people you know not talking
to them.
So and I started hearing fromparents like by the dozens, and
then it was by the hundreds andit just became clear that there
was a massive need foracknowledgement and help with
(02:26):
parent-adult-child estrangement.
I felt like I had a lot ofcompassion, you know, for the
people involved.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I have a lot of compassion too.
When I started this podcast, noone was really talking about
adult-child-parent relationships.
Now it's become a little bitmore forthright and people are
talking about it.
But let's talk about whatestrangement really is and why
do you think this phenomenon isgrowing so much.
I mean, a lot of people aresaying, well, these millennials,
they're very spoiled, you know.
(02:54):
They just therapists aretelling them cut out your
parents.
But really, what do you think?
What do you think's reallyhappening here?
And then I want you to clarifythat what we're talking about
today is just sort of a typicalestrangement.
(03:15):
I don't want to go into sexualabuse harm.
People that you know wentthrough really severe cases.
This is where the parentsdriving them crazy or triggering
them in some way that they'rebreaking off.
So let's start with defineestrangement and why you think
it's such a growing phenomenon.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, we don't have an agreed upon definition of
estrangement.
Some researchers have made itentirely quantitative If you
haven't talked to your child forthis long, it means you're
estranged.
Other researchers see it moreas a qualitative thing.
So there are differentdefinitions.
I think of it as basically it'sa relationship where it feels
(03:47):
like it's in trouble.
It feels like there's at leastan emotional distance between
you.
There's more distance than youwould like.
Maybe there's a tension in therelationship.
So it's a troubled relationshipthat's characterized by some
sense of distance that isunwanted, at least on one side.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
So it doesn't have to be just silence.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Oh no, it could be total silence, but it could also
be.
You talk every day but there'sa maybe there's a constant
tension or you're always gettinginto little conflicts and
sometimes you go apart and haveto be apart for a while and then
you come back together.
So there can be like an onagain, off again.
Now we're speaking, now we'renot aspect to it Anywhere from
you know you see them all thetime to you never see them can
(04:33):
be a form of estrangement.
It's really kind of how much isit hurting you to continue with
the relationship as it isbecause of a sense of?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
distance Boy.
That's really interesting.
I would say many, many parentshave a sense where they're
walking on eggshells and theyneed to always watch what
they're saying and that can be aform of estrangement if you're
hurting.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, I think of it as emotional estrangement.
The distance is not physical,it's not logistical.
Okay, you can get them on thephone, but there's a feeling
that the relationship is nolonger as close as it once was
and you can sort of hold boththings at once.
You can understand, okay, yeah,they're adults, they have their
own lives, they have partners,they have new attachment figures
(05:16):
.
I get it.
But also there can be a realsense of grief for the loss of
that connection, that sense ofconnection that you used to have
.
If it feels like there is roomfor the relationship to be
easier, better, a little bitcloser, without there being
over-involvement, then there maybe some repair work that can be
(05:37):
done.
But the idea, of course, thatit'll ever be the way it was
when they were living at home,that's a pretty tall order ever
be the way it was when they wereliving at home.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
That's a pretty tall order, sort of what I was going
to say.
Isn't there some responsibilityof the parent to also
understand that as the childbecomes an adult, the
relationship will change andthat you are not the center
stage?
You can get hurt for them notcalling you all the time or not
sharing everything with you.
I didn't share everything withmy parents.
Isn't there something in uswhere we have to say what is it
(06:10):
we really want and who are we todemand all of this?
I mean, I don't feel as closeto my children as I did when
they were living with me by anymeans, because hopefully, I
raised them to be independent.
They each have significantothers.
That person should be theirgo-to person, at least in my
mind.
Yes, so is this somethingparents have to learn?
(06:32):
What are our expectations?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Well, the parents I speak to usually say I know very
well that I am not the primaryperson in my child's life and
that's good, I'm glad they havesomeone else.
I just need to know they'reokay.
I just want to have a littletiny corner of their lives where
I can fit in.
You know, just to be included,even in a small way, is all I
(06:56):
want.
So it's very painful when eventhat seems unattainable.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
You mentioned on your website that a stranger can
happen to even good people, andI know very good parents in my
life that raised wonderfulchildren.
They care deeply about theirchildren, and yet there's
estrangement.
You also say that manyestrangements are temporary and
that parents have control overthe situation.
How does this estrangementtypically unfold and how do
(07:24):
parents have the control?
What can they do?
Our listeners like to get tips.
What should they be looking for?
What should they be doing?
How can they improve and betterthis relationship?
Okay?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
well, the idea that parents have total control over
the situation is, of course, nottrue Parents have control.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
I guess you wrote more control, not total.
You wrote more control.
I guess you wrote more control,not total.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
You wrote more control.
Well, there's usually morecontrol than you think in your
relationship with your kidbecause the parent, in my view,
always sets the tone of therelationship, even if you don't
get to set the level offrequency of contact or any of
that.
Since your child was born,since they came into your life,
(08:06):
the parent has set the tone forthe parent-child relationship.
The child was not able to dothat when they first came into
the relationship.
The parent did, and for thefirst, let's say, 18 years it
was the parent who set the toneas best they could for the
relationship, given whatevercame back at them.
And I believe that throughoutlife, parents of children any
(08:29):
age retain a certain specialstatus in that relationship
because of the history, becauseof having been responsible for
your child for so many years oftheir early lives.
But the control that you haveis more to do with influence
than it is to do with actually,you know, putting your hands in
(08:50):
and messing around.
The influence you have islargely from role modeling.
Once they're adults, theinfluence you have is with
yourself, in your behavior, yourwords, how you choose to
approach, the tone that you take.
These are all within theparent's control and they
certainly can have an impact.
(09:11):
Anytime a relationship, oneperson in a relationship,
changes, it does change therelationship.
But you know, people ask well,if my child isn't talking to me,
how much does it matter what Ido?
They're not going to see it.
That brings us to a centralpoint.
It's one of my takeaways, Ithink, for today, which is that
the parent's relationship withhim or herself is the foundation
(09:35):
of the relationship with theirchild or children.
The more parents focus on theirown healing, their own growth,
their own well-being, their ownneeds emotionally, the better
equipped they are to show up inthat parent-child relationship
with a full bucket emotionally.
That's kind of an ideal way toshow up in that parent-child
relationship with a full bucketemotionally.
(09:56):
That's kind of an ideal way toshow up in that particular
relationship.
Because it seems to causetrouble when parents approach
the adult child.
Sometimes without that fullbucket the parent may not even
realize some of the needs thatthey have that are going unmet.
But children are so good atsussing out what's going on with
(10:19):
their parents that may belargely unconscious to the
parent.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I want some examples of this, but the first thing
that comes to mind to me is theparent's insecure and they have
to sort of fill up their bucketand that's hard, hard work
because they're showing theirchild.
They're insecure by thequestions they're asking their
child.
Are they trying to get thesecurity through their child?
Can you give me some examplesof that?
(10:44):
When the bucket's not full, howthey may approach things, and
then when the bucket's full, how?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
you approach things Well.
An example I see a lot of abucket that's not full is a
parent who has not.
Let's say, it's a mom who hasnot really had a lot of support
in her life, who hasn't had afull partnership with her spouse
or partner and she is prettymuch coming last in most of her
relationships.
Who is a good, sensitive,loving person, who is very well
(11:22):
aware of mom's unmet needs andincluding her need for
visibility, for appreciation forthe needs that we all have.
To be special to someone, tomatter as humans to someone and
unbeknownst to that mom, who isso used to her needs, just
mattering, not at allunbeknownst to her, her
emotional well-being may befront and center in her
(11:43):
relationship with that child.
That child can take on theemotional burden of those unmet
needs without the mom knowing,let alone intending for that to
happen.
The mom can say don't worryabout me, you know, go be happy,
go do your thing.
But words are nothing comparedto how you are in your being.
(12:05):
So the mom we're talking aboutis maybe out of touch with
herself in ways that she doesn'teven realize.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
What are the steps they have to take?
Maybe you feel that way, butwhat do you need to do?
I don't know.
Common actions and behaviorsthat unintentionally push away
our adult children.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Well, one is continuing to parent as if they
were still at home, still there,still children.
That's a pretty common one.
I think that people understandthat continuing to parent your
child as you did before canunwittingly push them away
because your 25-year-old doesnot want to necessarily have,
necessarily they might, but theymay not want that kind of
(12:43):
parenting.
But not taking sufficient careof themselves is something that
can unwittingly push childrenaway, as I just mentioned.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
How do you know if you're not taking care of
yourself?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
One clue is your child's estrangement.
You know, estrangement is formany people the first sign that
what they've been doing is nolonger working.
What they've been doing to holdthemselves together, to hold
everyone else together, whateverthey've been doing to make life
work, it has broken down insome very important way in this
(13:17):
most important relationship.
So estrangement may be yourfirst clue that your
relationship with yourself is introuble.
If your relationship withyourself is the foundation of
your relationship with yourchild, then trouble in that
relationship may indicatetrouble within.
It may be being out of touchwith yourself, being out of
touch with your own needs.
(13:38):
Insecurity, as you mentioned,and all of these things come
from a place of experience.
If you're insecure, there's areason for that.
You were born with a certaintemperament, you know.
You may have a sort of atemperament where you're not
super bold, but you're not borninsecure.
Insecurity is learned inrelationship to other people and
(14:02):
the world.
Being tentative, being shy, maybe a temperament thing.
Insecurity is different, it'sinterpersonal.
So when the estranged adultchild, they may say actually
this happens quite a lot.
An adult child will say pleaseget therapy.
And the parent feels offended.
Of course, right.
Who are you to tell me to gettherapy.
(14:22):
What are you talking about?
And I don't need that?
Or will you come to therapywith me?
Let's work this out.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
And that's not a good idea.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
I actually did a podcast on this because therapy
with your adult child is fraught.
Let's say, when you go intotherapy with your child it is
not like going into therapy withyour husband or wife.
As a parent in family therapyyou're kind of in the hot seat
in ways that can be excruciating, and I have heard many stories
(14:53):
of parents going to therapyeither at their own request or
at the request of an adult childwith whom they were having a
troubled relationship andtherapy making things worse
Because the parent was notprepared for the feeling of
being just eviscerated in thetherapy room.
And that can happen, even ifyou know a therapist is trying
(15:15):
to not let that happen.
Being a parent is so justinherently vulnerable that when
you're being faced with aproblem presented by your adult
child, it can hook into allsorts of shame.
I can't even describe how awfulit can feel being in a therapy
room with your adult child ifyou are not prepared.
Feel being in a therapy roomwith your adult child if you are
(15:38):
not prepared, and I feel likepreparation is going to your own
therapy and getting used tolooking inside with love, not
with judgment or criticism.
Many people don't know how tolook at themselves without
thinking.
I'm looking at myself to findout how bad I am and how I can
change and be better.
That's not what, in my view,what therapy is about.
I think therapy should be aboutlearning how lovable you
(16:01):
actually are, even though you'renot perfect.
So step one is stop.
If there's a problem with yourchild, stop, pause.
It can be sort of panicking.
It feels like if I don't dosomething right now, my child is
going to go further and furtheraway.
I've got to do something tostop this.
I understand that.
(16:22):
It's understandable.
It's panic, though.
It's not true that if you don'tact now, this is not going to
be fixable, and in fact, in manycases, it's true that if you
act prematurely, you can makethings worse.
So the first thing is stop,pause, breathe, rest and focus
(16:42):
on yourself.
Focus on yourself.
What's going on with me rightnow?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
And that's hard for a mom who's focused on their
family and their children fortheir whole life.
They've given so much ofthemselves.
I did an episode I'm not goingto say her name right, but she's
great at mother-daughterrelationships Roshka, Roshka,
Heseldine, Heseldine.
Yeah, and we titled the episodethe Burnt Hamburger because the
mother always took the burnthamburger.
(17:08):
If you cooked all thehamburgers, oh, I'll take the
burnt one.
And she says well, that's whereit starts, and I never could
quite understand it.
You're saying the exact samething that you have to take care
of yourself.
So the other thing I want toask is it seems like everything
you're saying and everything Ihear, it's the parent's
(17:28):
responsibility to change, andyou kind of said that at the
beginning.
But sometimes you want to saywhy isn't my kid nicer to me?
Can't they just say, mom, thatdoesn't sound right, Try it
again?
Or, instead of just gettingangry or arguing, do they have
any responsibility in thisrelationship?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Great question.
Very often estranged adultchildren have their own work to
do.
Certainly it becomes theparent's responsibility to fix
when it is the parent who wantsthe relationship and the child
has stepped away.
If you are stepping away fromme, Denise, and I want you back,
and you're indifferent orappear to be.
(18:08):
It's kind of my job to try tofigure out.
How do I get Denise back.
Whereas if we're both in it andwe're having trouble together
and we're upfront about how muchwe love each other, then we can
meet each other halfway.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Okay.
So now your child's estranged,are there steps towards
approaching contact again?
Your child says I can't talk toyou anymore.
It's causing havoc on myemotional self.
I need a break.
I don't know how many months goby, or weeks go by, or what
does the parent have to do atthis point.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, I have a sort of conceived of a roadmap of
sorts.
It's very general but it'sdesigned to really apply to just
about everyone who findsthemselves estranged from their
adult children and it's gotbasically three steps.
Step one is rest and recover.
As I just indicated, theroadmap goes in the opposite
(19:00):
direction to what you wouldthink.
First is rest and focus onyourself.
Second is research, learn,understand, figure out and don't
rely on your child for that.
And step three is reach out.
Most parents naturally do thereaching out immediately, like
stop, stop, come back, and then,if that doesn't work, they may
(19:22):
do some research and then, whenthey get exhausted and hopeless
and desperate, they finally restfor the moment.
That is the opposite of the waythat I would love for parents
to approach it.
It's super hard, it's extremelyunnatural, because it feels
like you're walking in theopposite direction from where
(19:43):
you need to go to get your childback.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
So once the parent has rested, maybe they've even
gotten therapy.
Maybe a couple months haspassed.
How do they?
Speaker 1 (19:52):
re-approach.
So approaching is step two isresearch.
90% of the work of reconnectingthe parent can do without
reaching out to the adult child.
In many cases, if not mostcases, that doesn't quite
compute right Because, like, howdo you reconnect?
If there's no contact, rightContact.
(20:15):
The lack of contact is not theproblem.
If you could solve the problemwith more contact, then you
would just reach out a lot andthe kid would go oh okay, we're
okay now because we have lots ofcontact.
It doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
No, I get it, I get it, I get it.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
So that's why you want to do everything you can to
be prepared for contact,because the contact that you
used to have led to estrangement.
Something in there, let'spresume something in the
relationship, in the contact, inthe interactions over time
(20:51):
ended with an estrangement andso contact itself can be
explored and plumbed.
For what was going on therethat was so uncomfortable for my
child that they made thisdifficult decision to just stop
what was going on in there?
And parents ask me well, howcan I find that out?
(21:11):
They won't talk to me.
I don't know what was going on.
That's a reasonable thing toask.
But the fact is there's tons ofinformation available about what
goes wrong between parents andchildren and between parents and
adult children.
Tons of information, in fact.
Your adult child may not evenknow or be able to articulate in
a way that you can hear or atall what the issue is.
(21:35):
I know somebody who wasestranged for years from his
family.
He told me, and when I askedhim why, he said I don't really
know.
But then after some years hejust went back and he's been
back ever since with his family.
Some estrangements are likethat, where the adult child
really can't even articulate whythey need that space.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
During this time, there's not a birthday card even
sent.
The parent just has todisappear and work on themselves
.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Not in every case.
If you've been askedspecifically I need some space
or I need some time, I willcontact you when I'm ready that
kind of language, then you'vebeen asked for no contact.
Contact you when I'm ready thatkind of language, then you've
been asked for no contact, andin that case the most
relationship-preserving responseis to honor that request and
not reach out.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Even if years go by.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, hopefully years don't go by.
But yes, even if years do go by, people want to have a plan
from day one.
If I don't hear within X time,then I will do this or that.
That's understandable, but it'snot always something you can do
when a year has gone by and youhave not reached out to your
child and they have not reachedout to you.
(22:47):
Then you will be in whateverplace you're in psychologically,
emotionally, mentally and youwill then decide do I continue
to give space or do I gentlyreach out and offer an
opportunity to come backtogether?
And I think when you've had ano contact request, I don't
(23:09):
think you have to honor that forthe rest of your life.
I think it's important to honorit, but there may come a time
when your child might beavailable to reconnect but
doesn't quite have enoughbandwidth to figure out how.
And then a gentle reach out.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
How would you?
Because you could do all thiswork and rest and then reach out
and say the wrong thing on theget-go.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So after rest, after rest and understanding yourself
and stuff is research Right,right, research Right.
So that is gaining enoughinformation that you have some
idea of what went wrong.
Here's an example of somethingthat goes wrong enmeshment.
I'm not sure if you have talkedabout that on this podcast.
No, we have not.
(23:53):
Enmeshment can triggerestrangement in adult children
once they leave.
Enmeshment is, in simple terms,a too close relationship.
It's over-involvement, it's notenough room.
There's often role confusion.
Where the child is more like afriend they might be 10 years
old but still feel like dad'sbest friend or mom's best friend
(24:14):
that kind of relationship feelsgood, it feels like closeness,
but it feels better for theparent than for the child.
You may not know that that'sthe kind of scary thing is you?
You may not realize that thiscloseness doesn't feel quite the
same to the child, who may feelresponsible for being a good
(24:35):
friend and also, again, formeeting some of your emotional
needs, for companionship,belonging, visibility,
appreciation and so on.
It when a child has beenenmeshed with a parent or in a
very, very close family, oncethey have the opportunity and
ability to leave the home,parents and families can be
shocked at a cutoff that feelsvery sudden, and often there's
(24:59):
somebody new in the picture, anew girlfriend, a new boyfriend,
new set of friends, and thosepeople are, of course.
I mean, there's a correlationthere, right?
So it's like what have theydone to our beloved child?
Speaker 3 (25:14):
I see different situations and particularly if
it's one parent, the child feelsa little bit more responsible,
like you said, to have thatfriendship.
But then if they startfulfilling their life as they're
getting older, I can understandhow the parent might really
start to feel left out becausethey haven't taken the time to
work on themselves right Becausethe parent may not have anyone
(25:35):
else who lights them up the waythat child does.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
They may not have another emotional intimate
relationship the way they dowith that child.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
So how does a parent recognize this?
It all sounds so wonderful.
The child's calling all thetime.
They're sharing all kinds offun things, they gossip together
.
Does the parent startrecognizing this and think, okay
, I've got to pull away a littlebit, or could it all be
wonderful?
It could all be wonderful.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Enmeshment doesn't have to lead to estrangement.
It doesn't have to Right.
It can, though, and I think,from what I've seen, usually
it's estrangement that cluesparents in to the fact that they
were enmeshed.
In fact, it was too much, yeah,and sometimes parents ask me is
it possible?
I mean, my child seems enmeshedwith me, but is it possible for
(26:21):
them to be enmeshed with me andnot the other way around?
The answer is there isn't sucha thing as a one-sided zipper.
I mean, enmeshment is acollaborative thing.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Right, that makes perfect sense.
So we talked about continuingsetting gifts because I think,
like you said, estrangementisn't just being completely cut
off.
It also can be feelinguncomfortable, and I like this
conversation A and conversationabout a parent calling their son
at college and how.
(26:53):
The first one you say becurious, not defensive, and I
think this is true for everyonelistening, whether you're
estranged from your child or notthese kinds of tools on how to
approach them.
Someone else said always becurious, tell me more.
I'd like to just go throughthis.
I'll be the mom, okay, becauseI can be a tough one.
(27:15):
I can probably say it all wrong.
So the first conversation iswell, I would probably say Hi,
sweetie, how are your classesgoing?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Fine.
You don't have to yell at me.
I'm just trying to.
I know what you're trying to do, I know okay.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
So what have I done?
What have I done now?
Every time I call you, justyell at me.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
I don't want to talk about this right now.
I have to go, I have to study.
You have to go.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
It's been two weeks since we've talked Mom, don't be
so dramatic.
Then I hang up, you hang up,and we both feel terrible.
Okay, so now let's go to how weshould have been doing it.
Hi, sweetie, how are classesgoing?
Fine, great honey.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
You're fine, okay.
Okay, that's wonderful, is thatit?
What do you mean?
I can't believe you're notgoing to ask for details about
my classes.
That's what you usually do.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
I know I usually do ask that, don't I?
Speaker 1 (28:06):
That's fine.
I don't need you to ask.
In fact, please don't Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
How are you?
Do you really have to startsaying that's wonderful or good
for you, you or just opencurious statements and rather
than how was that English test?
We all have to practice thatbecause all of us want to know
how the English test went.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
It's easier said than done.
A lot of what we talk about,and you know what's prescribed,
is far easier said than done,isn't it?
And I?
Speaker 3 (28:34):
think it's so far easier said than done.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
But that has to do with how full our buckets are,
how equipped we are, how takencare of we are in our own lives,
that we are able to come withthis ability, this calm, maybe,
and practice this skill.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
A single parent may feel very alone and not taken.
You know, when money's an issue, you don't know what everyone's
struggling with and it's hardto rise above all of that.
I interviewed this one womanand you would love her, dr Susan
Heitler, and I use what shetold me.
She said to me and to ourlisteners it's always agree, and
(29:11):
so if your child says I'm madabout this or whatever, I agree,
you must be really angry aboutthat.
We should talk about it ratherthan why do I make you angry?
It's disagree and no buts.
I try to use that as much as Ican with my husband, with my
friends.
It's not always just your adultchild.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
That's right, that's so true.
And don't you find that youkind of have to be ready to do
that?
You have to be thinking aboutit Like I am going to not just
react.
I'm going to respond the way Iknow I want to right, it's a lot
of work, though it's a lot ofwork.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
I want you to talk about your reconnection club.
I also just want to showeveryone her book.
I know it's backwards, but it'sreconnecting with your
estranged adult child and thereare so many things in here that
I think everyone will love.
In fact, before we get to theend, I want to talk about giving
advice.
So you have a whole section ongiving advice.
What's your advice for givingadvice?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Well, I mean, I'm sure you've covered this many
times before, but if they wantadvice and you have some good
advice to give, then yes, butit's so hard to go from a
hundred to zero, right, for 18years or whatever.
You give advice, for someperiod of time you are legally
obligated to be in their livesand have a major influence and
(30:30):
then boom, they're legallyadults now and you have zero.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
They're supporting themselves.
You have no financial ties,because money can be a weird
thing.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Absolutely.
Yes, it can.
It's a lot to navigate themoney issues, but also the
emotional impact of going from Ikind of own a lot of your stuff
to I own nothing of yours.
Right, that's a big shift.
And while you're making thatshift, there's all these details
(31:01):
that you have to figure out.
What's my role here?
It's like a whole new language,a whole new circumstances to
get used to.
Rules, a whole new set of rules.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
What do you say to a parent when they're watching
their child?
Any example they're buyingtheir first home.
They're spending $500,000 andyou just think, oh my gosh, this
is not the right house for themto buy the neighborhood.
They're not thinking throughthe fees the right way.
Do you offer advice or zip it?
Bite your tongue.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, you know, I think bite your tongue is the
thing to do, but don't do itwithout giving yourself the room
to have whatever it is you haveabout it.
Are you afraid for them?
Are you sad?
Is there sadness in there abouthow much they're moving on?
I mean, what are all thefeelings in there that are
activating you?
(31:50):
Because if you don't take amoment to turn the focus around,
you're missing an opportunityfor your own healing and your
own growth.
Turn the focus around.
You're missing an opportunityfor your own healing and your
own growth.
Our whole past is always kind ofit's in there and it's always
presenting itself in little wayshere and there.
Like, is it time for you tothink about me?
Would you like to feel this,finally, the thing that you had
(32:13):
to put away?
So there's all theseopportunities, and kids are a
rich source of opportunities toprocess grief, to process
resentment, to process even I'llsay this hatred.
Some people I think more peoplethan will admit it have
experienced feelings of hatredtoward their children, and it's
important to me to say that,because it is a huge taboo.
(32:37):
You don't hear people goingaround and saying that, but if
any parent hearing this has everfelt like, oh, I just hate this
person, even just in the moment.
Understand that hatred is notthe opposite of love and that it
is very understandable in acircumstance where you feel
powerless against being hurt bysomeone who seems more powerful
(33:01):
than you.
So it's kind of a combinationof resentment and anger and
powerlessness.
That's what hatred is.
We don't you know a bird thatpoops on our car?
I mean we don't feel powerlessin the face of, or a toddler
who's raging.
We doesn't necessarily evokethose strong feelings when you
say love and hate.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
I wonder too if that hate comes through because
you've loved so much.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
You think because of the intensity?
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah, you've loved this person so much and now,
everything they're doing, you'refeeling this like who are you?
I can't stand you, but I'm notsure that hate would be so great
if you didn't love them so muchDoes that make any sense?
Speaker 1 (33:49):
It does to me.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
It's important to me to talkabout hatred and the whole
rainbow of feelings because Iwant people to accept that
they're human and they do have afull range of emotions, and it
doesn't make you bad to havefeelings that are uncomfortable
or painful.
And the more you can accept allof your feelings toward your
(34:11):
child or anything else, theeasier it will be to both accept
and understand and showcompassion for your child's
feelings if they differ fromyours.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
This is so great.
You're so right when you sayrest and do research.
I want to be clear on what thisresearch is, because it can
take time.
It can be reading your book.
It can be reading JoshuaColeman's book, it can be it's
not just going online andfiddling around.
It's really understanding howrelationships work and how you
(34:45):
may be contributing to what'supsetting this relationship.
Looking inside yourself, reallybeing able to look inside
yourself.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Right and it's very threatening to be told to look
at yourself.
It feels like an indictment oh,you're estranged.
Look at yourself.
I mean, it just feels so likean attack, our whole selves.
(35:21):
That's when we can change.
That's when we can be our bestselves.
Nobody gets better or becomes abetter person by feeling judged
and criticized and worthlessNobody.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
What other research do you suggest people do?
Therapy is part of it.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Therapy.
Yeah, I think your podcast ispart of research.
It's all about relationships.
Books about estrangement myfirst book, if I may say.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yes, tell us about that real quick Suit.
I wanted to bring that up, Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
My first book, constructive Wallowing, is all
about how to experiencedifficult feelings without them
breaking you or you feeling likeyou're terrible for having them
.
It's supposed to be likesitting with a therapist and
feeling accepted in.
I'm trying to operationalizewhat I mean when I say have
(36:08):
compassion for yourself.
I want people to have stepsthat they can take.
This is how I show myselfcompassion.
I identify my emotions.
I don't just push them away orI don't judge myself for having
them.
I identify them.
I find reasons why it makessense that I feel that way and I
allow myself to feel them inthe privacy of my heart, fully
(36:30):
without any judgment.
So there's so much invested inavoiding like feeling bad angry,
whatever it may be.
There's we invest so muchthought into how can I overcome
these feelings when the simplestway is to just let yourself
have it safely and then movethrough it in that way I've got
(36:51):
to get that book.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Okay, I want to ask one question.
You're estranged from youradult child for years and years.
They really want nothing to dowith you, and you're getting
older.
Do you keep them in your will?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Oh boy, that's a very complicated question and a very
personal one, but the way Ithink about it is this when you
pass away, you leave not justmaterial things but an emotional
legacy as well.
You leave an impression of whoyou were and what you stood for
(37:22):
and what you were all about, andyour will may be part of that
emotional legacy.
If a child thinks you're ahorrible person and they are cut
out of the will, they can, forthe rest of their lives, walk
around and say my parent was ahorrible person and they cut me
out of the will.
That's walk around and say myparent was a horrible person and
they cut me out of the will.
That's the kind of person myparent was if they feel
(37:43):
justified in their estrangementyeah, if you leave something for
them and they don't find outuntil after you're gone that you
were generous to them and yourwill, you know it's almost
kinder to leave them nothing andlet them think you were
horrible, because for the restof their lives they will have
this cognitive dissonance ofhaving cut you off and given you
(38:04):
nothing for years and thenreceived something from you just
purely out of generosity.
It's almost kinder not to dothat Because they will have to
live with that.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah, but it might be growth for them.
You might include a letter withit that talks about the pain,
but you still love them all.
This time.
I know you're saying it'skinder because they would say,
okay, they were a terribleparent, they didn't leave me
anything.
But I'd be more apt to leave it.
And because I still love them,I want them to know I never
stopped loving you, and I'm sureI messed up in so many ways and
(38:38):
I respected your decision toseparate from me, but it doesn't
mean that I ever stopped lovingyou.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, that what you're saying.
Right, there is a beautifulthing, and for many people that
would be the result of a lot ofpersonal healing that they
needed to go through to getthere.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, anyway, okay, the person who recommended us to
you said she has been a bigpart of your Reconnection Club
since she's met you and I saidthis in the intro she can
breathe again.
What does the Reconnection Clubdo?
I know, doesn't that make youfeel wonderful?
What is the Reconnection Club?
How can people join it?
What do you do there?
I know it's not you open a doorand go into a club, so let's
(39:17):
tell us what it is.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Right, right.
Well, first of all, I want toextend my big thank you to that
listener, because we really relyon members.
It's hard to be found on theInternet, so I'm always glad and
grateful when people talk aboutus, so thank you.
The Reconnection Club is online.
It's a website.
I think of it as a schoolthat's centered on a library of
(39:39):
of educational materials and aforum for parents who are
estranged from adult children.
The library is full ofeducational materials courses,
workshops, interviews.
We have office hours everymonth, and what does that mean?
That means I get on with ourmembers.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Oh, you get on, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
And take questions and so on, and we also have
other live events.
This year I started offering avalidation workshop because
validation is such a crucialskill in relationships.
People are really excited tolearn and practice validation.
So live events, the library andthe community of other parents.
Our community, I'll say, isdifferent from other online
(40:19):
communities because we havepretty strict rules around us
versus them.
We don't bash estranged adultchildren.
We don't have anyfear-mongering allowed.
It's as much as it can be.
It's a safe and supportive andpositive space.
People do express emotions,like anger and sadness.
That's totally allowed.
(40:40):
All emotions are allowed.
Do they give advice to eachother?
Yes, it's kind, it's amazing.
I mean, I am blown away,frankly, by the respect and
compassion and kindness thatmembers express to each other in
our forums.
I'm so grateful to our members.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
And so they would go to your website, which is
Reconnectionclubcom, okay, andit's there that they would sign
up, and I imagine there's ayearly fee or a monthly fee.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
There's a monthly fee or a yearly fee, so currently
it's $25 a month, $199 a year.
I spend most of my time in andaround the Reconnection Club
producing materials and doinglive events, so it is a part of
my livelihood, which is the onlyreason that I charge for it.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Well, it's really pretty inexpensive because it's
kind of like therapy, I mean,you're getting all this
up-to-date thing, you're talkingto others, you're getting you
once a month where you would payone session of therapy way more
than $1.99.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Well, it's true, I know I've been there, done that.
This has been wonderful.
We have done a lot of episodes,but you've reinforced things
and you've also brought up new.
I hope everyone will love it.
And now for your takeaways.
We always ask our guests togive us two takeaways, and I
know one of them you used before, but I think you need to repeat
it because some people go rightto the end to hear the two
(42:04):
takeaways.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
So takeaway one is that your relationship with
yourself is the foundation ofyour relationship with your
child or children.
If there's a problem in yourrelationship with your child or
children, it may indicate thatthere's something to look at
within you, a way that maybethere's a disconnect inside or
there's self-criticism, stuffthat isn't whole, that doesn't
(42:27):
quite come together within you.
So it is never the wrong thingto focus on your relationship
with yourself.
I guess I would just sort ofpresent a new idea here at the
end.
Yeah good good.
Estrangement is not about thepast as much as it is a problem
in the present.
If your child complains thatthis thing happened when they
(42:52):
were 13 and you were not good tothem, your response is I really
did my best, this was happeningand that was happening.
Then what's happening is right.
At this moment, your child isexperiencing themselves as not
visible, not being seen, notbeing heard, not having their
(43:12):
experience honored.
That's a present problem.
So estrangement can only besolved in the present, and
that's the good news.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
When your child says that to you, this happened when
I was 13,.
You weren't there for me.
What should be the parent'sresponse?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Just as your love and logic is.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Yeah, agree, ann, that's what I was wondering
Because I would say I agree.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
You must have really felt terrible and I should learn
more about how I could havechanged or what would have
helped or how would you go.
I would not agree if they say Iwas a jerk.
You know I was a jerk, but Iwould ask for more information.
Tell me more about that.
It sounds like you were really.
You know, reflect the emotionsand everything, and I can
completely understand that.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
But you could agree and say I agree, you must feel
terrible from that experience.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I would just say it's not necessary to agree with
their feelings.
Their feelings are.
I mean, it's like I agree it'sMonday.
It may come across as a littlebit, you know, by rote,
especially if your child is not,yeah, if you're doing it all
the time.
If you're doing it all the timeand your child isn't used to
that from you, then it's like oh, mom took a course or something
.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Okay, well, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Thank you, Denise.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
This has been a great conversation,
reconnectionclubcom, and I'llshare all of that in my episode
notes Really appreciate it, andI had thought at the beginning
you were still in Denver, butyou're in Vancouver.
Enjoy that beautiful city.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I will Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Denise, all the best to you.
Thank you.
Well, that's a wrap.
I really love Tina.
I hope all of you did too.
What stood out to me isunderstanding estrangement.
It doesn't always mean that youdon't see your adult child
they've cut you off but maybeyou have hurt feelings during or
after conversations and youhave to take a little break or
reassess your relationship.
Those are trigger points andsomething to think about.
(45:05):
Remember her steps stop andrest, research and then,
depending on the situation,reach out.
I think all of us need to workhard on how we approach our
adult children and how what wesay can sound kind of intrusive
to them.
Her book Reconnecting with yourEstranged Adult Child is a
great resource to start withyour research.
(45:27):
She has so many great ideas.
We all need this, I think,estranged or not.
And remember her ReconnectionClub reconnectionclubcom.
That's something that ourlisteners said was a godsend.
Just a reminder that we're notgoing to be doing episodes
regularly, twice a month.
We just really need a break.
We're just covering topics andwe've covered so many.
(45:51):
It's a good idea to go back andre-listen, and that's part of
your research too.
If you suggest a topic or aguest, we may select it for one
of these one-off episodes.
I will be doing these myself.
I'm certainly going to missKirsten, but I need to just move
forward and this is the wayI've decided to do it.
I want to thank ConnieGorn-Fisher, our audio and
(46:11):
production engineer.
She does such a great job.
Please remember to write to usat biteyourtonguepodcast at
gmailcom.
Share your comments, give usideas for guests and topics that
you want us to cover, and thoseare the episodes we're going to
do.
Consider supporting us by goingto our website,
biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
Buy us a virtual cup of coffee.
(46:33):
It's just $5.
And, last but not least,remember to follow us on
Facebook and Instagram.
Even though the episodes arenot coming out as often, we
still have costs to cover.
So buying that virtual cup ofcoffee means so much to us.
We've got costs for editing,hosting, social media,
everything.
There's all kinds of apps youhave to keep paying for monthly
(46:55):
to keep making this happen.
We've had so much fun doing it.
It means so much to us thatyou're listening.
And remember I used to saysometimes you have to bite your
tongue.
But I'm going to say this time,after all these conversations
remember, most of the time youhave to bite your tongue.
Your relationship with yourself is the foundation
of your relationship with yourchild or children.
If there's a problem in yourrelationship with your child or
children, it may indicate thatthere's something to look at
within you, a way that maybethere's a disconnect inside or
there's self-criticism, stuffthat doesn't quite come together
within you.
(00:24):
So it is never the wrong thingto focus on your relationship
with yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to Bite your Tongue,the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm Denise and I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will
join us as we explore the insand outs of building healthy
relationships with our adultchildren.
Together.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
We'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Get ready to dive deep and learn, to build and
nurture deep connections withour adult children and, of
course, when, to bite ourtongues.
So let's get started.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Welcome, Tina.
We're thrilled to have you withus.
I think we should start by youtelling our listeners a little
bit about how you got into thiswhole arena and specialty of
helping parents who areestranged from their adult
children.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, I really just fell into it by accident.
As a therapist, I had all theseadult clients who came in for
various reasons, but they oftenmentioned that they were not
happy with their parents.
They didn't want to go home forholidays, they were exasperated
by their parents contactingthem and all of this stuff.
(01:41):
And when I asked them about it,you know what do your parents
say when you tell them, oh, Ican't tell them, or oh, they
don't get it, or there was, itwas.
I became aware that there wasthis big disconnect between my
clients and their parents andyou know it's not ethical for me
to go reach out to theirparents and say, hey, guess what
?
I had a website, I was writingarticles and I wrote an article
(02:02):
called what to do when someonewon't talk to you because, by
the way, my clients were alsohaving trouble in relationships
with, with the silent treatmentand people you know not talking
to them.
So and I started hearing fromparents like by the dozens, and
then it was by the hundreds andit just became clear that there
was a massive need foracknowledgement and help with
(02:26):
parent-adult-child estrangement.
I felt like I had a lot ofcompassion, you know, for the
people involved.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I have a lot of compassion too.
When I started this podcast, noone was really talking about
adult-child-parent relationships.
Now it's become a little bitmore forthright and people are
talking about it.
But let's talk about whatestrangement really is and why
do you think this phenomenon isgrowing so much.
I mean, a lot of people aresaying, well, these millennials,
they're very spoiled, you know.
(02:54):
They just therapists aretelling them cut out your
parents.
But really, what do you think?
What do you think's reallyhappening here?
And then I want you to clarifythat what we're talking about
today is just sort of a typicalestrangement.
(03:15):
I don't want to go into sexualabuse harm.
People that you know wentthrough really severe cases.
This is where the parentsdriving them crazy or triggering
them in some way that they'rebreaking off.
So let's start with defineestrangement and why you think
it's such a growing phenomenon.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, we don't have an agreed upon definition of
estrangement.
Some researchers have made itentirely quantitative If you
haven't talked to your child forthis long, it means you're
estranged.
Other researchers see it moreas a qualitative thing.
So there are differentdefinitions.
I think of it as basically it'sa relationship where it feels
(03:47):
like it's in trouble.
It feels like there's at leastan emotional distance between
you.
There's more distance than youwould like.
Maybe there's a tension in therelationship.
So it's a troubled relationshipthat's characterized by some
sense of distance that isunwanted, at least on one side.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
So it doesn't have to be just silence.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Oh no, it could be total silence, but it could also
be.
You talk every day but there'sa maybe there's a constant
tension or you're always gettinginto little conflicts and
sometimes you go apart and haveto be apart for a while and then
you come back together.
So there can be like an onagain, off again.
Now we're speaking, now we'renot aspect to it Anywhere from
you know you see them all thetime to you never see them can
(04:33):
be a form of estrangement.
It's really kind of how much isit hurting you to continue with
the relationship as it isbecause of a sense of?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
distance Boy.
That's really interesting.
I would say many, many parentshave a sense where they're
walking on eggshells and theyneed to always watch what
they're saying and that can be aform of estrangement if you're
hurting.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, I think of it as emotional estrangement.
The distance is not physical,it's not logistical.
Okay, you can get them on thephone, but there's a feeling
that the relationship is nolonger as close as it once was
and you can sort of hold boththings at once.
You can understand, okay, yeah,they're adults, they have their
own lives, they have partners,they have new attachment figures
(05:16):
.
I get it.
But also there can be a realsense of grief for the loss of
that connection, that sense ofconnection that you used to have
.
If it feels like there is roomfor the relationship to be
easier, better, a little bitcloser, without there being
over-involvement, then there maybe some repair work that can be
(05:37):
done.
But the idea, of course, thatit'll ever be the way it was
when they were living at home,that's a pretty tall order ever
be the way it was when they wereliving at home.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
That's a pretty tall order, sort of what I was going
to say.
Isn't there some responsibilityof the parent to also
understand that as the childbecomes an adult, the
relationship will change andthat you are not the center
stage?
You can get hurt for them notcalling you all the time or not
sharing everything with you.
I didn't share everything withmy parents.
Isn't there something in uswhere we have to say what is it
(06:10):
we really want and who are we todemand all of this?
I mean, I don't feel as closeto my children as I did when
they were living with me by anymeans, because hopefully, I
raised them to be independent.
They each have significantothers.
That person should be theirgo-to person, at least in my
mind.
Yes, so is this somethingparents have to learn?
(06:32):
What are our expectations?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Well, the parents I speak to usually say I know very
well that I am not the primaryperson in my child's life and
that's good, I'm glad they havesomeone else.
I just need to know they'reokay.
I just want to have a littletiny corner of their lives where
I can fit in.
You know, just to be included,even in a small way, is all I
(06:56):
want.
So it's very painful when eventhat seems unattainable.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
You mentioned on your website that a stranger can
happen to even good people, andI know very good parents in my
life that raised wonderfulchildren.
They care deeply about theirchildren, and yet there's
estrangement.
You also say that manyestrangements are temporary and
that parents have control overthe situation.
How does this estrangementtypically unfold and how do
(07:24):
parents have the control?
What can they do?
Our listeners like to get tips.
What should they be looking for?
What should they be doing?
How can they improve and betterthis relationship?
Okay?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
well, the idea that parents have total control over
the situation is, of course, nottrue Parents have control.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
I guess you wrote more control, not total.
You wrote more control.
I guess you wrote more control,not total.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
You wrote more control.
Well, there's usually morecontrol than you think in your
relationship with your kidbecause the parent, in my view,
always sets the tone of therelationship, even if you don't
get to set the level offrequency of contact or any of
that.
Since your child was born,since they came into your life,
(08:06):
the parent has set the tone forthe parent-child relationship.
The child was not able to dothat when they first came into
the relationship.
The parent did, and for thefirst, let's say, 18 years it
was the parent who set the toneas best they could for the
relationship, given whatevercame back at them.
And I believe that throughoutlife, parents of children any
(08:29):
age retain a certain specialstatus in that relationship
because of the history, becauseof having been responsible for
your child for so many years oftheir early lives.
But the control that you haveis more to do with influence
than it is to do with actually,you know, putting your hands in
(08:50):
and messing around.
The influence you have islargely from role modeling.
Once they're adults, theinfluence you have is with
yourself, in your behavior, yourwords, how you choose to
approach, the tone that you take.
These are all within theparent's control and they
certainly can have an impact.
(09:11):
Anytime a relationship, oneperson in a relationship,
changes, it does change therelationship.
But you know, people ask well,if my child isn't talking to me,
how much does it matter what Ido?
They're not going to see it.
That brings us to a centralpoint.
It's one of my takeaways, Ithink, for today, which is that
the parent's relationship withhim or herself is the foundation
(09:35):
of the relationship with theirchild or children.
The more parents focus on theirown healing, their own growth,
their own well-being, their ownneeds emotionally, the better
equipped they are to show up inthat parent-child relationship
with a full bucket emotionally.
That's kind of an ideal way toshow up in that parent-child
relationship with a full bucketemotionally.
(09:56):
That's kind of an ideal way toshow up in that particular
relationship.
Because it seems to causetrouble when parents approach
the adult child.
Sometimes without that fullbucket the parent may not even
realize some of the needs thatthey have that are going unmet.
But children are so good atsussing out what's going on with
(10:19):
their parents that may belargely unconscious to the
parent.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I want some examples of this, but the first thing
that comes to mind to me is theparent's insecure and they have
to sort of fill up their bucketand that's hard, hard work
because they're showing theirchild.
They're insecure by thequestions they're asking their
child.
Are they trying to get thesecurity through their child?
Can you give me some examplesof that?
(10:44):
When the bucket's not full, howthey may approach things, and
then when the bucket's full, how?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
you approach things Well.
An example I see a lot of abucket that's not full is a
parent who has not.
Let's say, it's a mom who hasnot really had a lot of support
in her life, who hasn't had afull partnership with her spouse
or partner and she is prettymuch coming last in most of her
relationships.
Who is a good, sensitive,loving person, who is very well
(11:22):
aware of mom's unmet needs andincluding her need for
visibility, for appreciation forthe needs that we all have.
To be special to someone, tomatter as humans to someone and
unbeknownst to that mom, who isso used to her needs, just
mattering, not at allunbeknownst to her, her
emotional well-being may befront and center in her
(11:43):
relationship with that child.
That child can take on theemotional burden of those unmet
needs without the mom knowing,let alone intending for that to
happen.
The mom can say don't worryabout me, you know, go be happy,
go do your thing.
But words are nothing comparedto how you are in your being.
(12:05):
So the mom we're talking aboutis maybe out of touch with
herself in ways that she doesn'teven realize.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
What are the steps they have to take?
Maybe you feel that way, butwhat do you need to do?
I don't know.
Common actions and behaviorsthat unintentionally push away
our adult children.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Well, one is continuing to parent as if they
were still at home, still there,still children.
That's a pretty common one.
I think that people understandthat continuing to parent your
child as you did before canunwittingly push them away
because your 25-year-old doesnot want to necessarily have,
necessarily they might, but theymay not want that kind of
(12:43):
parenting.
But not taking sufficient careof themselves is something that
can unwittingly push childrenaway, as I just mentioned.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
How do you know if you're not taking care of
yourself?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
One clue is your child's estrangement.
You know, estrangement is formany people the first sign that
what they've been doing is nolonger working.
What they've been doing to holdthemselves together, to hold
everyone else together, whateverthey've been doing to make life
work, it has broken down insome very important way in this
(13:17):
most important relationship.
So estrangement may be yourfirst clue that your
relationship with yourself is introuble.
If your relationship withyourself is the foundation of
your relationship with yourchild, then trouble in that
relationship may indicatetrouble within.
It may be being out of touchwith yourself, being out of
touch with your own needs.
(13:38):
Insecurity, as you mentioned,and all of these things come
from a place of experience.
If you're insecure, there's areason for that.
You were born with a certaintemperament, you know.
You may have a sort of atemperament where you're not
super bold, but you're not borninsecure.
Insecurity is learned inrelationship to other people and
(14:02):
the world.
Being tentative, being shy, maybe a temperament thing.
Insecurity is different, it'sinterpersonal.
So when the estranged adultchild, they may say actually
this happens quite a lot.
An adult child will say pleaseget therapy.
And the parent feels offended.
Of course, right.
Who are you to tell me to gettherapy.
(14:22):
What are you talking about?
And I don't need that?
Or will you come to therapywith me?
Let's work this out.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
And that's not a good idea.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
I actually did a podcast on this because therapy
with your adult child is fraught.
Let's say, when you go intotherapy with your child it is
not like going into therapy withyour husband or wife.
As a parent in family therapyyou're kind of in the hot seat
in ways that can be excruciating, and I have heard many stories
(14:53):
of parents going to therapyeither at their own request or
at the request of an adult childwith whom they were having a
troubled relationship andtherapy making things worse
Because the parent was notprepared for the feeling of
being just eviscerated in thetherapy room.
And that can happen, even ifyou know a therapist is trying
(15:15):
to not let that happen.
Being a parent is so justinherently vulnerable that when
you're being faced with aproblem presented by your adult
child, it can hook into allsorts of shame.
I can't even describe how awfulit can feel being in a therapy
room with your adult child ifyou are not prepared.
Feel being in a therapy roomwith your adult child if you are
(15:38):
not prepared, and I feel likepreparation is going to your own
therapy and getting used tolooking inside with love, not
with judgment or criticism.
Many people don't know how tolook at themselves without
thinking.
I'm looking at myself to findout how bad I am and how I can
change and be better.
That's not what, in my view,what therapy is about.
I think therapy should be aboutlearning how lovable you
(16:01):
actually are, even though you'renot perfect.
So step one is stop.
If there's a problem with yourchild, stop, pause.
It can be sort of panicking.
It feels like if I don't dosomething right now, my child is
going to go further and furtheraway.
I've got to do something tostop this.
I understand that.
(16:22):
It's understandable.
It's panic, though.
It's not true that if you don'tact now, this is not going to
be fixable, and in fact, in manycases, it's true that if you
act prematurely, you can makethings worse.
So the first thing is stop,pause, breathe, rest and focus
(16:42):
on yourself.
Focus on yourself.
What's going on with me rightnow?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
And that's hard for a mom who's focused on their
family and their children fortheir whole life.
They've given so much ofthemselves.
I did an episode I'm not goingto say her name right, but she's
great at mother-daughterrelationships Roshka, Roshka,
Heseldine, Heseldine.
Yeah, and we titled the episodethe Burnt Hamburger because the
mother always took the burnthamburger.
(17:08):
If you cooked all thehamburgers, oh, I'll take the
burnt one.
And she says well, that's whereit starts, and I never could
quite understand it.
You're saying the exact samething that you have to take care
of yourself.
So the other thing I want toask is it seems like everything
you're saying and everything Ihear, it's the parent's
(17:28):
responsibility to change, andyou kind of said that at the
beginning.
But sometimes you want to saywhy isn't my kid nicer to me?
Can't they just say, mom, thatdoesn't sound right, Try it
again?
Or, instead of just gettingangry or arguing, do they have
any responsibility in thisrelationship?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Great question.
Very often estranged adultchildren have their own work to
do.
Certainly it becomes theparent's responsibility to fix
when it is the parent who wantsthe relationship and the child
has stepped away.
If you are stepping away fromme, Denise, and I want you back,
and you're indifferent orappear to be.
(18:08):
It's kind of my job to try tofigure out.
How do I get Denise back.
Whereas if we're both in it andwe're having trouble together
and we're upfront about how muchwe love each other, then we can
meet each other halfway.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Okay.
So now your child's estranged,are there steps towards
approaching contact again?
Your child says I can't talk toyou anymore.
It's causing havoc on myemotional self.
I need a break.
I don't know how many months goby, or weeks go by, or what
does the parent have to do atthis point.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, I have a sort of conceived of a roadmap of
sorts.
It's very general but it'sdesigned to really apply to just
about everyone who findsthemselves estranged from their
adult children and it's gotbasically three steps.
Step one is rest and recover.
As I just indicated, theroadmap goes in the opposite
(19:00):
direction to what you wouldthink.
First is rest and focus onyourself.
Second is research, learn,understand, figure out and don't
rely on your child for that.
And step three is reach out.
Most parents naturally do thereaching out immediately, like
stop, stop, come back, and then,if that doesn't work, they may
(19:22):
do some research and then, whenthey get exhausted and hopeless
and desperate, they finally restfor the moment.
That is the opposite of the waythat I would love for parents
to approach it.
It's super hard, it's extremelyunnatural, because it feels
like you're walking in theopposite direction from where
(19:43):
you need to go to get your childback.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
So once the parent has rested, maybe they've even
gotten therapy.
Maybe a couple months haspassed.
How do they?
Speaker 1 (19:52):
re-approach.
So approaching is step two isresearch.
90% of the work of reconnectingthe parent can do without
reaching out to the adult child.
In many cases, if not mostcases, that doesn't quite
compute right Because, like, howdo you reconnect?
If there's no contact, rightContact.
(20:15):
The lack of contact is not theproblem.
If you could solve the problemwith more contact, then you
would just reach out a lot andthe kid would go oh okay, we're
okay now because we have lots ofcontact.
It doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
No, I get it, I get it, I get it.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
So that's why you want to do everything you can to
be prepared for contact,because the contact that you
used to have led to estrangement.
Something in there, let'spresume something in the
relationship, in the contact, inthe interactions over time
(20:51):
ended with an estrangement andso contact itself can be
explored and plumbed.
For what was going on therethat was so uncomfortable for my
child that they made thisdifficult decision to just stop
what was going on in there?
And parents ask me well, howcan I find that out?
(21:11):
They won't talk to me.
I don't know what was going on.
That's a reasonable thing toask.
But the fact is there's tons ofinformation available about what
goes wrong between parents andchildren and between parents and
adult children.
Tons of information, in fact.
Your adult child may not evenknow or be able to articulate in
a way that you can hear or atall what the issue is.
(21:35):
I know somebody who wasestranged for years from his
family.
He told me, and when I askedhim why, he said I don't really
know.
But then after some years hejust went back and he's been
back ever since with his family.
Some estrangements are likethat, where the adult child
really can't even articulate whythey need that space.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
During this time, there's not a birthday card even
sent.
The parent just has todisappear and work on themselves
.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Not in every case.
If you've been askedspecifically I need some space
or I need some time, I willcontact you when I'm ready that
kind of language, then you'vebeen asked for no contact.
Contact you when I'm ready thatkind of language, then you've
been asked for no contact, andin that case the most
relationship-preserving responseis to honor that request and
not reach out.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Even if years go by.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, hopefully years don't go by.
But yes, even if years do go by, people want to have a plan
from day one.
If I don't hear within X time,then I will do this or that.
That's understandable, but it'snot always something you can do
when a year has gone by and youhave not reached out to your
child and they have not reachedout to you.
(22:47):
Then you will be in whateverplace you're in psychologically,
emotionally, mentally and youwill then decide do I continue
to give space or do I gentlyreach out and offer an
opportunity to come backtogether?
And I think when you've had ano contact request, I don't
(23:09):
think you have to honor that forthe rest of your life.
I think it's important to honorit, but there may come a time
when your child might beavailable to reconnect but
doesn't quite have enoughbandwidth to figure out how.
And then a gentle reach out.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
How would you?
Because you could do all thiswork and rest and then reach out
and say the wrong thing on theget-go.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So after rest, after rest and understanding yourself
and stuff is research Right,right, research Right.
So that is gaining enoughinformation that you have some
idea of what went wrong.
Here's an example of somethingthat goes wrong enmeshment.
I'm not sure if you have talkedabout that on this podcast.
No, we have not.
(23:53):
Enmeshment can triggerestrangement in adult children
once they leave.
Enmeshment is, in simple terms,a too close relationship.
It's over-involvement, it's notenough room.
There's often role confusion.
Where the child is more like afriend they might be 10 years
old but still feel like dad'sbest friend or mom's best friend
(24:14):
that kind of relationship feelsgood, it feels like closeness,
but it feels better for theparent than for the child.
You may not know that that'sthe kind of scary thing is you?
You may not realize that thiscloseness doesn't feel quite the
same to the child, who may feelresponsible for being a good
(24:35):
friend and also, again, formeeting some of your emotional
needs, for companionship,belonging, visibility,
appreciation and so on.
It when a child has beenenmeshed with a parent or in a
very, very close family, oncethey have the opportunity and
ability to leave the home,parents and families can be
shocked at a cutoff that feelsvery sudden, and often there's
(24:59):
somebody new in the picture, anew girlfriend, a new boyfriend,
new set of friends, and thosepeople are, of course.
I mean, there's a correlationthere, right?
So it's like what have theydone to our beloved child?
Speaker 3 (25:14):
I see different situations and particularly if
it's one parent, the child feelsa little bit more responsible,
like you said, to have thatfriendship.
But then if they startfulfilling their life as they're
getting older, I can understandhow the parent might really
start to feel left out becausethey haven't taken the time to
work on themselves right Becausethe parent may not have anyone
(25:35):
else who lights them up the waythat child does.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
They may not have another emotional intimate
relationship the way they dowith that child.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
So how does a parent recognize this?
It all sounds so wonderful.
The child's calling all thetime.
They're sharing all kinds offun things, they gossip together
.
Does the parent startrecognizing this and think, okay
, I've got to pull away a littlebit, or could it all be
wonderful?
It could all be wonderful.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Enmeshment doesn't have to lead to estrangement.
It doesn't have to Right.
It can, though, and I think,from what I've seen, usually
it's estrangement that cluesparents in to the fact that they
were enmeshed.
In fact, it was too much, yeah,and sometimes parents ask me is
it possible?
I mean, my child seems enmeshedwith me, but is it possible for
(26:21):
them to be enmeshed with me andnot the other way around?
The answer is there isn't sucha thing as a one-sided zipper.
I mean, enmeshment is acollaborative thing.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Right, that makes perfect sense.
So we talked about continuingsetting gifts because I think,
like you said, estrangementisn't just being completely cut
off.
It also can be feelinguncomfortable, and I like this
conversation A and conversationabout a parent calling their son
at college and how.
(26:53):
The first one you say becurious, not defensive, and I
think this is true for everyonelistening, whether you're
estranged from your child or notthese kinds of tools on how to
approach them.
Someone else said always becurious, tell me more.
I'd like to just go throughthis.
I'll be the mom, okay, becauseI can be a tough one.
(27:15):
I can probably say it all wrong.
So the first conversation iswell, I would probably say Hi,
sweetie, how are your classesgoing?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Fine.
You don't have to yell at me.
I'm just trying to.
I know what you're trying to do, I know okay.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
So what have I done?
What have I done now?
Every time I call you, justyell at me.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
I don't want to talk about this right now.
I have to go, I have to study.
You have to go.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
It's been two weeks since we've talked Mom, don't be
so dramatic.
Then I hang up, you hang up,and we both feel terrible.
Okay, so now let's go to how weshould have been doing it.
Hi, sweetie, how are classesgoing?
Fine, great honey.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
You're fine, okay.
Okay, that's wonderful, is thatit?
What do you mean?
I can't believe you're notgoing to ask for details about
my classes.
That's what you usually do.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
I know I usually do ask that, don't I?
Speaker 1 (28:06):
That's fine.
I don't need you to ask.
In fact, please don't Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
How are you?
Do you really have to startsaying that's wonderful or good
for you, you or just opencurious statements and rather
than how was that English test?
We all have to practice thatbecause all of us want to know
how the English test went.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
It's easier said than done.
A lot of what we talk about,and you know what's prescribed,
is far easier said than done,isn't it?
And I?
Speaker 3 (28:34):
think it's so far easier said than done.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
But that has to do with how full our buckets are,
how equipped we are, how takencare of we are in our own lives,
that we are able to come withthis ability, this calm, maybe,
and practice this skill.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
A single parent may feel very alone and not taken.
You know, when money's an issue, you don't know what everyone's
struggling with and it's hardto rise above all of that.
I interviewed this one womanand you would love her, dr Susan
Heitler, and I use what shetold me.
She said to me and to ourlisteners it's always agree, and
(29:11):
so if your child says I'm madabout this or whatever, I agree,
you must be really angry aboutthat.
We should talk about it ratherthan why do I make you angry?
It's disagree and no buts.
I try to use that as much as Ican with my husband, with my
friends.
It's not always just your adultchild.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
That's right, that's so true.
And don't you find that youkind of have to be ready to do
that?
You have to be thinking aboutit Like I am going to not just
react.
I'm going to respond the way Iknow I want to right, it's a lot
of work, though it's a lot ofwork.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
I want you to talk about your reconnection club.
I also just want to showeveryone her book.
I know it's backwards, but it'sreconnecting with your
estranged adult child and thereare so many things in here that
I think everyone will love.
In fact, before we get to theend, I want to talk about giving
advice.
So you have a whole section ongiving advice.
What's your advice for givingadvice?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Well, I mean, I'm sure you've covered this many
times before, but if they wantadvice and you have some good
advice to give, then yes, butit's so hard to go from a
hundred to zero, right, for 18years or whatever.
You give advice, for someperiod of time you are legally
obligated to be in their livesand have a major influence and
(30:30):
then boom, they're legallyadults now and you have zero.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
They're supporting themselves.
You have no financial ties,because money can be a weird
thing.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Absolutely.
Yes, it can.
It's a lot to navigate themoney issues, but also the
emotional impact of going from Ikind of own a lot of your stuff
to I own nothing of yours.
Right, that's a big shift.
And while you're making thatshift, there's all these details
(31:01):
that you have to figure out.
What's my role here?
It's like a whole new language,a whole new circumstances to
get used to.
Rules, a whole new set of rules.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
What do you say to a parent when they're watching
their child?
Any example they're buyingtheir first home.
They're spending $500,000 andyou just think, oh my gosh, this
is not the right house for themto buy the neighborhood.
They're not thinking throughthe fees the right way.
Do you offer advice or zip it?
Bite your tongue.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, you know, I think bite your tongue is the
thing to do, but don't do itwithout giving yourself the room
to have whatever it is you haveabout it.
Are you afraid for them?
Are you sad?
Is there sadness in there abouthow much they're moving on?
I mean, what are all thefeelings in there that are
activating you?
(31:50):
Because if you don't take amoment to turn the focus around,
you're missing an opportunityfor your own healing and your
own growth.
Turn the focus around.
You're missing an opportunityfor your own healing and your
own growth.
Our whole past is always kind ofit's in there and it's always
presenting itself in little wayshere and there.
Like, is it time for you tothink about me?
Would you like to feel this,finally, the thing that you had
(32:13):
to put away?
So there's all theseopportunities, and kids are a
rich source of opportunities toprocess grief, to process
resentment, to process even I'llsay this hatred.
Some people I think more peoplethan will admit it have
experienced feelings of hatredtoward their children, and it's
important to me to say that,because it is a huge taboo.
(32:37):
You don't hear people goingaround and saying that, but if
any parent hearing this has everfelt like, oh, I just hate this
person, even just in the moment.
Understand that hatred is notthe opposite of love and that it
is very understandable in acircumstance where you feel
powerless against being hurt bysomeone who seems more powerful
(33:01):
than you.
So it's kind of a combinationof resentment and anger and
powerlessness.
That's what hatred is.
We don't you know a bird thatpoops on our car?
I mean we don't feel powerlessin the face of, or a toddler
who's raging.
We doesn't necessarily evokethose strong feelings when you
say love and hate.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
I wonder too if that hate comes through because
you've loved so much.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
You think because of the intensity?
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah, you've loved this person so much and now,
everything they're doing, you'refeeling this like who are you?
I can't stand you, but I'm notsure that hate would be so great
if you didn't love them so muchDoes that make any sense?
Speaker 1 (33:49):
It does to me.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
It's important to me to talkabout hatred and the whole
rainbow of feelings because Iwant people to accept that
they're human and they do have afull range of emotions, and it
doesn't make you bad to havefeelings that are uncomfortable
or painful.
And the more you can accept allof your feelings toward your
(34:11):
child or anything else, theeasier it will be to both accept
and understand and showcompassion for your child's
feelings if they differ fromyours.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
This is so great.
You're so right when you sayrest and do research.
I want to be clear on what thisresearch is, because it can
take time.
It can be reading your book.
It can be reading JoshuaColeman's book, it can be it's
not just going online andfiddling around.
It's really understanding howrelationships work and how you
(34:45):
may be contributing to what'supsetting this relationship.
Looking inside yourself, reallybeing able to look inside
yourself.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Right and it's very threatening to be told to look
at yourself.
It feels like an indictment oh,you're estranged.
Look at yourself.
I mean, it just feels so likean attack, our whole selves.
(35:21):
That's when we can change.
That's when we can be our bestselves.
Nobody gets better or becomes abetter person by feeling judged
and criticized and worthlessNobody.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
What other research do you suggest people do?
Therapy is part of it.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Therapy.
Yeah, I think your podcast ispart of research.
It's all about relationships.
Books about estrangement myfirst book, if I may say.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yes, tell us about that real quick Suit.
I wanted to bring that up, Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
My first book, constructive Wallowing, is all
about how to experiencedifficult feelings without them
breaking you or you feeling likeyou're terrible for having them
.
It's supposed to be likesitting with a therapist and
feeling accepted in.
I'm trying to operationalizewhat I mean when I say have
(36:08):
compassion for yourself.
I want people to have stepsthat they can take.
This is how I show myselfcompassion.
I identify my emotions.
I don't just push them away orI don't judge myself for having
them.
I identify them.
I find reasons why it makessense that I feel that way and I
allow myself to feel them inthe privacy of my heart, fully
(36:30):
without any judgment.
So there's so much invested inavoiding like feeling bad angry,
whatever it may be.
There's we invest so muchthought into how can I overcome
these feelings when the simplestway is to just let yourself
have it safely and then movethrough it in that way I've got
(36:51):
to get that book.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Okay, I want to ask one question.
You're estranged from youradult child for years and years.
They really want nothing to dowith you, and you're getting
older.
Do you keep them in your will?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Oh boy, that's a very complicated question and a very
personal one, but the way Ithink about it is this when you
pass away, you leave not justmaterial things but an emotional
legacy as well.
You leave an impression of whoyou were and what you stood for
(37:22):
and what you were all about, andyour will may be part of that
emotional legacy.
If a child thinks you're ahorrible person and they are cut
out of the will, they can, forthe rest of their lives, walk
around and say my parent was ahorrible person and they cut me
out of the will.
That's walk around and say myparent was a horrible person and
they cut me out of the will.
That's the kind of person myparent was if they feel
(37:43):
justified in their estrangementyeah, if you leave something for
them and they don't find outuntil after you're gone that you
were generous to them and yourwill, you know it's almost
kinder to leave them nothing andlet them think you were
horrible, because for the restof their lives they will have
this cognitive dissonance ofhaving cut you off and given you
(38:04):
nothing for years and thenreceived something from you just
purely out of generosity.
It's almost kinder not to dothat Because they will have to
live with that.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah, but it might be growth for them.
You might include a letter withit that talks about the pain,
but you still love them all.
This time.
I know you're saying it'skinder because they would say,
okay, they were a terribleparent, they didn't leave me
anything.
But I'd be more apt to leave it.
And because I still love them,I want them to know I never
stopped loving you, and I'm sureI messed up in so many ways and
(38:38):
I respected your decision toseparate from me, but it doesn't
mean that I ever stopped lovingyou.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, that what you're saying.
Right, there is a beautifulthing, and for many people that
would be the result of a lot ofpersonal healing that they
needed to go through to getthere.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, anyway, okay, the person who recommended us to
you said she has been a bigpart of your Reconnection Club
since she's met you and I saidthis in the intro she can
breathe again.
What does the Reconnection Clubdo?
I know, doesn't that make youfeel wonderful?
What is the Reconnection Club?
How can people join it?
What do you do there?
I know it's not you open a doorand go into a club, so let's
(39:17):
tell us what it is.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Right, right.
Well, first of all, I want toextend my big thank you to that
listener, because we really relyon members.
It's hard to be found on theInternet, so I'm always glad and
grateful when people talk aboutus, so thank you.
The Reconnection Club is online.
It's a website.
I think of it as a schoolthat's centered on a library of
(39:39):
of educational materials and aforum for parents who are
estranged from adult children.
The library is full ofeducational materials courses,
workshops, interviews.
We have office hours everymonth, and what does that mean?
That means I get on with ourmembers.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Oh, you get on, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
And take questions and so on, and we also have
other live events.
This year I started offering avalidation workshop because
validation is such a crucialskill in relationships.
People are really excited tolearn and practice validation.
So live events, the library andthe community of other parents.
Our community, I'll say, isdifferent from other online
(40:19):
communities because we havepretty strict rules around us
versus them.
We don't bash estranged adultchildren.
We don't have anyfear-mongering allowed.
It's as much as it can be.
It's a safe and supportive andpositive space.
People do express emotions,like anger and sadness.
That's totally allowed.
(40:40):
All emotions are allowed.
Do they give advice to eachother?
Yes, it's kind, it's amazing.
I mean, I am blown away,frankly, by the respect and
compassion and kindness thatmembers express to each other in
our forums.
I'm so grateful to our members.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
And so they would go to your website, which is
Reconnectionclubcom, okay, andit's there that they would sign
up, and I imagine there's ayearly fee or a monthly fee.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
There's a monthly fee or a yearly fee, so currently
it's $25 a month, $199 a year.
I spend most of my time in andaround the Reconnection Club
producing materials and doinglive events, so it is a part of
my livelihood, which is the onlyreason that I charge for it.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Well, it's really pretty inexpensive because it's
kind of like therapy, I mean,you're getting all this
up-to-date thing, you're talkingto others, you're getting you
once a month where you would payone session of therapy way more
than $1.99.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Well, it's true, I know I've been there, done that.
This has been wonderful.
We have done a lot of episodes,but you've reinforced things
and you've also brought up new.
I hope everyone will love it.
And now for your takeaways.
We always ask our guests togive us two takeaways, and I
know one of them you used before, but I think you need to repeat
it because some people go rightto the end to hear the two
(42:04):
takeaways.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
So takeaway one is that your relationship with
yourself is the foundation ofyour relationship with your
child or children.
If there's a problem in yourrelationship with your child or
children, it may indicate thatthere's something to look at
within you, a way that maybethere's a disconnect inside or
there's self-criticism, stuffthat isn't whole, that doesn't
(42:27):
quite come together within you.
So it is never the wrong thingto focus on your relationship
with yourself.
I guess I would just sort ofpresent a new idea here at the
end.
Yeah good good.
Estrangement is not about thepast as much as it is a problem
in the present.
If your child complains thatthis thing happened when they
(42:52):
were 13 and you were not good tothem, your response is I really
did my best, this was happeningand that was happening.
Then what's happening is right.
At this moment, your child isexperiencing themselves as not
visible, not being seen, notbeing heard, not having their
(43:12):
experience honored.
That's a present problem.
So estrangement can only besolved in the present, and
that's the good news.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
When your child says that to you, this happened when
I was 13,.
You weren't there for me.
What should be the parent'sresponse?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Just as your love and logic is.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Yeah, agree, ann, that's what I was wondering
Because I would say I agree.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
You must have really felt terrible and I should learn
more about how I could havechanged or what would have
helped or how would you go.
I would not agree if they say Iwas a jerk.
You know I was a jerk, but Iwould ask for more information.
Tell me more about that.
It sounds like you were really.
You know, reflect the emotionsand everything, and I can
completely understand that.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
But you could agree and say I agree, you must feel
terrible from that experience.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I would just say it's not necessary to agree with
their feelings.
Their feelings are.
I mean, it's like I agree it'sMonday.
It may come across as a littlebit, you know, by rote,
especially if your child is not,yeah, if you're doing it all
the time.
If you're doing it all the timeand your child isn't used to
that from you, then it's like oh, mom took a course or something
.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Okay, well, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Thank you, Denise.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
This has been a great conversation,
reconnectionclubcom, and I'llshare all of that in my episode
notes Really appreciate it, andI had thought at the beginning
you were still in Denver, butyou're in Vancouver.
Enjoy that beautiful city.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I will Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Denise, all the best to you.
Thank you.
Well, that's a wrap.
I really love Tina.
I hope all of you did too.
What stood out to me isunderstanding estrangement.
It doesn't always mean that youdon't see your adult child
they've cut you off but maybeyou have hurt feelings during or
after conversations and youhave to take a little break or
reassess your relationship.
Those are trigger points andsomething to think about.
(45:05):
Remember her steps stop andrest, research and then,
depending on the situation,reach out.
I think all of us need to workhard on how we approach our
adult children and how what wesay can sound kind of intrusive
to them.
Her book Reconnecting with yourEstranged Adult Child is a
great resource to start withyour research.
(45:27):
She has so many great ideas.
We all need this, I think,estranged or not.
And remember her ReconnectionClub reconnectionclubcom.
That's something that ourlisteners said was a godsend.
Just a reminder that we're notgoing to be doing episodes
regularly, twice a month.
We just really need a break.
We're just covering topics andwe've covered so many.
(45:51):
It's a good idea to go back andre-listen, and that's part of
your research too.
If you suggest a topic or aguest, we may select it for one
of these one-off episodes.
I will be doing these myself.
I'm certainly going to missKirsten, but I need to just move
forward and this is the wayI've decided to do it.
I want to thank ConnieGorn-Fisher, our audio and
(46:11):
production engineer.
She does such a great job.
Please remember to write to usat biteyourtonguepodcast at
gmailcom.
Share your comments, give usideas for guests and topics that
you want us to cover, and thoseare the episodes we're going to
do.
Consider supporting us by goingto our website,
biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
Buy us a virtual cup of coffee.
(46:33):
It's just $5.
And, last but not least,remember to follow us on
Facebook and Instagram.
Even though the episodes arenot coming out as often, we
still have costs to cover.
So buying that virtual cup ofcoffee means so much to us.
We've got costs for editing,hosting, social media,
everything.
There's all kinds of apps youhave to keep paying for monthly
(46:55):
to keep making this happen.
We've had so much fun doing it.
It means so much to us thatyou're listening.
And remember I used to saysometimes you have to bite your
tongue.
But I'm going to say this time,after all these conversations
remember, most of the time youhave to bite your tongue.
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