December 13, 2024 • 33 mins
In this episode, we explore the joys and challenges of visits with adult children, whether during the holidays or throughout the year. Our guests, Pamela Heckelman, a certified Empty Nest coach, and Rabbi Schlomo Slotkin a seasoned relationship counselor, share their expertise on building stronger, more fulfilling connections with adult children.
How can parents create a welcoming home environment while prioritizing their own emotional well-being? They offer invaluable tips on balancing self-care with the temporary chaos of family gatherings. We discuss the surprising reappearance of teenage behaviors and provide strategies for handling these moments with grace and patience.
As the family gathering time approaches, managing expectations is more critical than ever. We delve into the art of flexibility, open communication, and adapting traditions to reduce stress and foster joy. Together, we explore how parents can find fulfillment in simple, meaningful moments while letting go of unnecessary pressures to truly enjoy the holiday spirit.
We talk about the importance of respecting adult children’s autonomy and maintaining a united front with your partner. By setting healthy boundaries and practicing non-judgmental communication, parents can nurture relationships that thrive beyond holiday visits.
Join us for this insightful conversation, packed with practical tools to enrich your family gatherings and strengthen relationships with your adult children.
Also a free book download from Pamela: Your Kids are Grown: Now What?
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Also remember to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. And once again, with just a donation of $5 you can help us keep going! Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select SUPPORT US. You can buy a "virtual" cup of coffee and support our work!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
We can't expect the holidays to look the same way
they always did.
That's just not healthy, that'snot wise, because these adult
children now have a say.
They will have families oftheir own.
You will have to learn to share, and so this season is all
about again going back to a momtaking care of that inner stuff.
That is all about her and notabout her kids.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue the
podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
I'm Denise and I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will
join us as we explore the insand outs of building healthy
relationships with our adultchildren.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Together, we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt
stories and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Get ready to dive deep and learn, to build and
nurture deep connections withour adult children and, of
course, when, to bite ourtongues.
So let's get started.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Bite your
Tongue, the podcast.
I'm Denise and today Kirsten'snot with me, because I decided
at the last minute to do thisquick holiday episode.
I thought here we are runningaround frantically during this
month I think it's mid-Decemberright now and why are we all
running around like crazy?
Whatever we're celebrating,we're getting our homes ready,
(01:22):
we're doing this, we're doingthat.
It's become a crazy time ofyear, so let's consider this a
quick, short episode aboutvisiting our adult children
during the holidays or how toprepare for them to come home
and not get stressed.
We're going to talk to twopeople, so let's get started.
First we're going to welcomePamela Heckelman, a certified
(01:43):
Empty Nest coach, speaker andpodcaster.
I first found her through herpodcast, midlife Mama, and she
also has a lot of great blogposts on her website.
She's graciously offered all ofour listeners a free handout
called your Kids Are Grown Nowwhat?
I'll put that link in ourepisode notes.
(02:04):
After Pamela, we're shiftinggears and welcoming Rabbi Shlomo
Schlotkin.
We're definitely a secularpodcast, respecting all beliefs.
When I read some of the rabbi'steachings, especially about
young adults, I thought he mightbe a great person to talk to.
He's a licensed professionalcounselor and what I really
liked is he's a certified Imagorelationship therapist.
(02:26):
Imago relationship therapy isabout couples counseling or
couples therapy, and I reallybelieve that any relationship
counseling couples, our adultchildren, our friends all have
some of the same techniques.
I learned that through ourepisode with Susan Heitler, so
it's all about the relationshipand I thought he'd be really
great.
(02:47):
We're going to start withPamela, so let's dive into the
conversation and get started.
Welcome, pamela.
Is there anything I missed inyour intro that you want to add
before we get started with theepisode and our questions?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Sure.
Well, first of all, I want tosay I'm just a mom who has
failed and fallen and learnedsome really important lessons,
and so I hope you feel likeyou're like that too, and we're
all just here to grow a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
We are.
It's funny.
I just posted something onInstagram of followers said gosh
, I feel this exact way and myyoungest is 24 or something.
I think we all thought we weredone when we were 18.
And this second stage that noone understands is really the
longest relationship we'll havein our lives with our kids.
So I think we're all in thesame boat.
You are, but today we'retalking about holidays.
(03:35):
It's holidays, but also anytimeyour adult kids come home,
particularly if they live out ofstate, I think there's anxiety
on both parts.
Why do you think people get alittle bit anxious when the
adult kids come home?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Well, I think because everything's changed.
And the funny thing is, why isit?
When we get back into our mom'shouse, we all feel 14?
Why is that?
I do not know, but it is aphenomenon that I know that our
children are walking through,and so what can we do to make
them feel better?
I want my home to be a havenfor my kids, that, no matter
(04:11):
where they're, at what they'regoing through, home is a safe
place to land, and I think momalways sets the tone in the home
.
She just always does.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
They're coming home, all these things that have gone
through our minds when they'regone, like how's that
relationship with Sally?
Is your job going okay?
Is your apartment rent going up?
And we want to ask all thesethings.
So the tension's in us.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
have any suggestion on how we just welcome them
without all of this baggage thatthey can almost see in our face
?
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Right, right.
Well, I think the best thingyou can do is care for yourself
beforehand and think it through.
If you know there's a topicthat is emotionally triggering
for you, that's on you, then youdo the work, whether you need
to go for a walk, you need tojournal, you need to find a
counselor.
If you're a woman of faith,then you need to pray, but take
(05:03):
care of yourself and manage someof those emotions.
I think it's really importantfor women to have emotional
confidence, to know what to do,to respond well, so that it
doesn't get all this stirred upinside of us.
We've got to take care ofourselves.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I think so much we put on our kids and we really
have to look into ourselves.
It's funny you said that aboutturning 14 when we go home.
I can remember well intoadulthood, going to my parents'
house and becoming a slob.
I mean, my house is so neat.
So now when my kids come home,I just look at all the shoes by
the front door, I look at allthe jackets hanging over the
(05:42):
thing rather than hanging up andI just say, okay, it's just a
week, it's just a week.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
It's just a week.
Yes, it's just a week.
Those 14 coffee mugs that Ikeep running through the
dishwasher.
You know what we did in ourfamily.
This was probably before COVID.
I was tired of doing all thecooking and the prep and I said
you know what?
We're going to take turns andyour family gets this meal, and
your family gets this meal andyour family gets this meal and
(06:10):
then they're responsible to buyall the food, cook all the food,
serve the food and clean up.
It has taken all the pressureoff me and my husband because
I'm like honey, get out of thekitchen, you're cleaning the
dishes again.
And my husband because I'm likehoney, get out of the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
You're cleaning the dishes again.
This year, for the first time,my son and his girlfriend are
coming home and I said you arecooking Christmas Eve?
And he wrote back and said,fine, because I just wasn't up
for it.
I just was like I can't do it.
I'll tell you a funny story.
My mom used to label.
I thought you were going to saythis.
She used to label our cups, soshe would take sticky notes and
(06:46):
say this is Denise's, this isda-da-da-da-da, but I finally
understand how my mother felt.
How do you feel?
Let's talk about when a kidcomes home and they have chosen
a very different lifestyle thanyours whether it be religious,
whether it be, I don't know.
Kids can have lots of differentkinds of lifestyles.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
How do you?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
handle that You're all going to church or you're
all going to temple or you'repraying at the dinner table and
they're completely off the tablewith that.
What's your advice to parentsfor that?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Well, first of all, I think this is the season of
listening.
Our adult kids want our empathyand our understanding.
We don't have to agree withwhat they're doing, but we owe
it to them to sit down and saytell me all about it, tell me
where you're coming from, andthen just listen.
Listening does not equalagreeing and I think sometimes
(07:36):
moms are afraid to listenbecause they're like, well, if I
listen, then they'll think Iagree with it.
Your kids know where you standon everything.
They were raised in your home.
They deserve the dignity ofbeing listened to and
empathizing with.
If you want to go to church andyour child doesn't, you say,
hey, we're going to church atsix, are you up for it?
And when they say no, you justsay, okay, sounds great.
(07:58):
Don't make a big deal about it,don't make them feel bad about
it.
It's all about just this gracetowards each other and actually
kindness.
Could we just be a little morekind?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Everything you're saying is right.
It's just always hard work.
I looked at this article onlinethat you wrote and it said tips
for joyful holiday season,longing for the Christmas past,
and that was a sentiment I couldreally relate to, because once
those kids are grown, if there'sno grandbabies, there's a whole
different feel around theholidays.
But I want to go into some ofyour topics.
(08:30):
First, you wrote definingexpectations.
Give us that advice on definingexpectations.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Okay, well, first of all, let's understand what an
expectation is.
It is the strong belief thatyou have about the proper way
someone should behave orsomething should happen.
So moms have all theseexpectations around Christmas.
It should look like this andit's we're going to do it here
and we're going to eat this, andthese people are going to be
present.
(08:56):
And this is what it looks like.
And if it doesn't go like that,mama is going to be unhappy, and
what that does is expectationsare just the fuel for
disappointment, and when youtake disappointment far enough,
it can become in bitterness, andthen, whenever you're around
these people, you're just likewell, I'm going to reject them
(09:18):
because they rejected me, andactually that's just not true.
Because's not true?
Because we can't expect theholidays to look the same way
they always did.
That's just not healthy, that'snot wise, because these adult
children now have a say.
They will have families oftheir own.
You will have to learn to share, and so this season is all
about again going back to a momtaking care of that inner stuff.
(09:41):
That is all about her and notabout her kids.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I love that All about her and not about her kids.
I love that all about her andnot about our kids.
We have to step outside ofourselves.
So the second thing you wrotewas practicing adaptability and
flexibility.
That's the key.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
That is the key that unlocks the joy of the holiday
season.
When the kids say we're notcoming home because we're going
to be with my wife's parents,you have to say, okay, that
sounds great, we'll see you nextyear, hopefully.
Like when our first child gotmarried, we have this.
They came to us and said we'vedecided that we're going to
spend Thanksgiving with you andChristmas with my wife's family
(10:19):
and then we're going toflip-flop so we did that for
years.
Now.
The rest of the family.
They would be like oh, kim andMichelle aren't going to be here
this year.
I said, yeah, it is sad, butthey'll be with us next year.
Everybody has to learn to adapt.
Flexibility is key.
It's just so important.
You will have more joy, youwill have more peace and you
won't be so frustrated.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And maybe you'll find some time for yourself, because
no one's around.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Maybe you and your husband can go somewhere and do
something fun, Exactly Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I love this one Understanding that our adult
kids aren't responsible for ourhappiness because our lives were
so filled raising our kids andnow they're gone and they're
building their own lives.
People ask me what makes youhappy?
I say when my kids are around,and really they're not
responsible for my happiness, sotell us more about that.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
This again, it's on mom.
It's on what she's going to dowith herself, what she's going
to do with her giftings and herstrengths.
What can she look forward to?
What could?
What new thing could spring up?
I didn't start podcasting orwriting or coaching until my
nest was empty.
Maybe number four was headingout the door.
But I had been a speaker for along time and whenever I would
(11:31):
speak, people would say, hey,you need to write a book.
And I'm like, well, I shouldwrite a book.
Why am I going to write a book?
I should learn how to write abook because I've never written
anything publicly, and sothere's so much in us that you
can discover and you can justtry.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
It's hard, though.
You really have to haveconfidence.
I didn't do this until I was anempty nest and that sort of
thing too a completely differentcareer, but it's hard.
You really step out of yoursafety zone and yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
That's where the good stuff happens.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Utilizing open communication.
So I love this.
Help us with that.
What is open communication?
Maybe some tips on openingconversations, that sort of
thing.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Right.
So when it comes to theholidays and your kids do become
older and move on and havetheir own lives, there comes a
time when you all have to sitdown and have a conversation and
say, hey, can we talk about theholidays?
I want to know what are youthinking about for the holidays
this year, or how would you likethem to look?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
now.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Okay.
I don't know.
Oh, so you're telling me youdon't have an opinion and it
doesn't matter to you.
Then they do have an opinionwhen they come home.
And then what matters to youmost?
Because for some our kids aregoing to value different things,
and maybe the meal is mostimportant, maybe it's time
sitting on the couch all piledtogether watching their favorite
(12:52):
movie, maybe it's goingsledding, maybe it's going
shopping Whatever's mostmeaningful to you.
For us, it's our annualgingerbread decorating
competition.
We are fierce competitorsbecause they're all artistic and
I'm like I have zero artisticability in the way of drawing
and such, and so I'm just like,oh, I'm just going to make.
I don't even know what I'mgoing to make, but I'm not going
(13:13):
to win because you all are sotalented.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
What you just said there struck something for me.
You said maybe it's your meal,maybe it's piled on the couch
watching a movie, maybe it'sthis, maybe it's that.
All those are very idyllic.
I think the holidays havebecome harder with social media
and with okay, everyone else issledding, everyone else is doing
gingerbread competitions,everybody else is in the kitchen
(13:37):
and no one's making a mess, butthey're all cooking.
No, it's all a big mess, right,but anyway, I'm just saying.
I think the stress on familiesto make it special makes it even
harder.
Maybe that's the expectationthing.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, maybe it's just make it comfortable.
Make it comfortable, if y'alldon't want to do anything, do
anything together, at least justabout feeling comfortable, I
think.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
This last one.
Maybe we talked about itChoosing what matters most and
letting go of the rest.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Right, that's just it .
I think you'll have more peaceif you just let things go.
Let it go If it doesn't matterto anybody.
I made these popcorn balls for35 years and I used to hide them
for my grandma.
Then I would hide them for mymom and I asked my kids last
year I said do you like thosepopcorn balls?
She's like no, we don't needthem.
I'm like what?
I was like wow, I don't have tomake those popcorn balls.
(14:31):
I'm shocked.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Oh, that's so funny yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I guess, I think.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I think the hard part is I don't know how to say this
, but it's like when they comehome and you're right being
accepting and all of that, butyou're not composting.
The big joke now on socialmedia, on TV, is everything in
my mother's refrigerator is 20years old or whatever but it's
hard to deal with all that.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, you just say you know what, you get your
choices and I get mine.
So back off, sometimes I thinkwe got to get a little spicy.
Yeah, I think you just got tohandle it back, hand it back
instead of getting like offendedand hurt.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I think you're right.
Okay, so now, before we go toyour takeaways, I want you to
tell our listeners a little bitabout your free resource called
your Kids Are Grown Now.
What will they find in this ifthey go to the episode notes and
download it?
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah.
So this is a robust guide justto help midlife moms understand
the different phases of midlifemotherhood.
I divided into three phases.
The empty feeling mom, like herchildren have first left and
she's desperately sad anddoesn't know what to do with
herself.
And then there's thequestioning mom where she's like
well, wow, what is this goingto look like now?
What is this going to look likenow?
(15:40):
I wonder what I should do withmy life.
I wonder what's next.
And then there's thecelebratory mom who's like this
is not bad and this emptiness isa lovely place to be.
It's not bad, I know myselfbetter.
I'm walking in what I wassupposed to be doing, yeah, so
it's just kind of helping momsknow what to expect in each of
(16:00):
those areas.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
That's great, all right.
So, pamela, before we close, Ilike my guests to leave our
listeners with two takeawaysthey'd like them to remember
from this interview.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Right.
I would say the two things youwanna do with your adult kids
during the holidays is listen.
Well, listen, listen, listen.
You don't even have to ask anyquestion, except tell me what
you're thinking, tell me what'sgoing on and then be flexible.
A rigid mom is an unhappy mom.
A rigid mom who says it has tobe this way, this way, this way,
(16:32):
she's going to be unhappy.
But a flexible mom learns thatthe family ebbs and flows and
things will change and it'sgoing to be okay.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That's great.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
I wish you a joyous holidayseason with your family and a
really messy kitchen during thatgingerbread making contest.
It sounds like a lot of fun.
Thank you, you and yours too.
Thank you so much.
Lot of fun, thank you, you andyours too.
Thank you so much.
So that was great.
I think Pam had a lot of veryinteresting things to say, and
(17:02):
now we're going to move on toRabbi Slotkin.
I introduced him at the onsetof the episode, so we're anxious
to hear what he has to say.
So welcome, rabbi Slotkin.
It's great that you were ableto join us today.
When I wrote to you, you sentme a list of key points about
adult kids coming home for theholidays or anytime you're
visiting your adult kids, andI'd like you to just expand a
(17:25):
little bit on each of thosepoints.
The first one you said to mewas boundaries.
You say that your adult childwill probably want to set
boundaries.
Let them so.
Tell us about this.
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (17:37):
want to set boundaries, let them.
So tell us about this.
What do you mean by that?
Sure, so I mean it's very it'snormal for parents to have a
hard time kind of giving spacefor their children.
Because of the love you havefor your children, you want to
spend time with them when youwant to spend time with them,
which is not always a good timefor them.
There may be differences ofopinions that you have If they
are in a relationship, ifthey're married, you may not
agree with some of the thingsthat they do in terms of as they
(17:59):
can maintain their autonomy astheir own person and not just
your appendage, but their ownadult and to learn how to
(18:21):
individuate, and it's notnecessarily a bad thing.
The challenge is like when itbecomes so much about boundaries
that it's all about boundariesthat I can't be in relationship
with you.
That's where it gets a littlebit problematic To set healthy
boundaries, to share what'scomfortable for them when
they're available, when they'renot available, and for the
adults to be able to respectthem, the parents to be able to
(18:42):
respect them.
I think that's a fair ask, eventhough it's hard.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
It is hard.
It's hard.
This is something that's nevercome up before.
I know that you do this couplescounseling Be on the same page
with your spouse or partner.
I could see that it could getbad if you're respecting the
boundaries and your husband orpartner is not.
Do you discuss this beforehand?
How might you prepare to be onthe same page with your spouse
or partner?
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Sure, I see this a lot.
I see this with the kids adultkids and I see it with parents.
They have different opinionsabout their children or their
in-laws, different relationshipsand, when the holidays are
about to come, if they can havea conversation about it and
really be clear about what theyneed, the type of support they
need from their partner, it'sgoing to be really helpful.
(19:26):
So, again, whether it's theparents or whether it's the
children, being a united frontis going to be helpful to get
their message across, becauseusually what happens if they're
not a united front?
One person leaves feelingmarginalized and it's a very
uncomfortable situation andthey're not going to want to be
with you the next holiday oryou're not going to want to have
them the next holiday becauseit's just too much tension.
(19:48):
If you're both clear about whenyou're feeling triggered, what
are the type of things that youcan foresee based on past
experiences, it's a great thingto talk about beforehand and get
clarity about what you needfrom your partner to support you
, so that you also, like you'renot contradicting each other,
you're not doing anything thatwould kind of get in the way or
make the other person yourspouse feel bad.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I think that's really a great.
I think for the adult kids too.
I remember with my husband andI when we used to visit his
parents.
I would say now, compliment meevery so often or support what I
say Didn't always happen, butwe did try to set those ground
rules, so I think that's a greatidea.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
It's important, especially if you have a history
of challenges and conflict inthat relationship and holiday
time.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Right, Even not conflict, just not always
feeling seen when you go to hishouse.
He's the child when you go toyour house.
You're the child, so there's awhole different relationship
going on there, and it'simportant to figure out how to
both support your parents, butalso support your partner that
you're bringing home, or yourhusband.
That's a big circle.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Yeah, you want to be seen.
You don't want to just be likeforget about it.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Here she comes again, the one who took my son.
Okay, then you say this onejust sent me, don't get stressed
.
Oh, come on.
This is a very stressful time,whether they're coming for the
holidays, whether they'revisiting for a week in the
summer with the grandkids.
It's stress, it's stress, crazystress.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah, it is crazy stress, but it's all dependent
on our mindset.
If we're going to let it botherus, if we're going to just
relax and try to not control thesituation.
The more we try to control theoutcome, the more stressful it's
going to be, because everythinghas to be a certain way and
we're not able to be flexiblewhen things don't go that way,
which usually happens.
(21:33):
So the more that you can justdo your best to be present and
to just expect the unexpected,it will be a lot less of a
stressful experience.
The stress about them coming isgoing to impact your
relationship too.
So it's like you know, we'reentertaining, we're going to
have this, we're having ourparents come over for the
holidays.
Oh, everything has to look.
You know, let's say, maybe thedaughter-in-law like everything
has to be perfect and the househas to be clean, and then you
(21:56):
know you get in fights with thehusband and with the children
and that's in the end.
It might be a nice experience,but the time it takes to get
there and prepare it's miserable.
It's not something that peopleare going to look forward to on
a year to year basis.
If it's, if there's so muchstress going into preparation
for the holidays.
So doing your best, notpressure yourself, that you have
to impress anyone, that youhave to be Martha Stewart or you
(22:16):
know.
Have this perfect table.
That do the best that you can,and the main point is that
everyone loves each other.
Regardless of how good the mealis, how fancy the decor is, the
main point is that everyone'sspending time together at this
time of year.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
You're right.
I think, also for adaughter-in-law in particular,
your mother-in-law could bejudgmental oh my gosh, she's not
using cloth napkins.
Maybe all you could do was findthe paper ones in the bottom
drawer.
But I think what you're sayingmakes sense.
If you can let that go, itmight be a better experience for
everyone.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Now, these are a couple of questions that we
didn't talk about before, but Iwant to ask you, particularly
being a rabbi.
We are a secular podcast andall your advice is you know,
certainly across the board, buthow about when your child has
strayed from the family religion?
Your child comes home and it isa religious holiday whether it
be the high holidays for theJews, Christmas, hanukkah,
(23:10):
easter and you're observant.
How do you deal with your childand his or her partner coming
home and they're not observant?
Speaker 4 (23:17):
I think the main thing is to be accepting and
loving, because if you want themone day to even want to come
back to observance, you want tohave them have a positive
experience.
So the main thing is just notto force anything on them, just
invite them to have them theresharing the holiday with you.
(23:38):
That's the main thing.
Giving them that unconditionallove, no judgment.
That's going to be the best wayto have the holiday.
Now, look, it depends on thereligion and the customs and the
laws.
Some things can become more, Iwould say, tricky, depending,
but I think for most people Imean, we have laws in terms of
you're not supposed to drive onthe Sabbath.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Oh, right right.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
But now I would say in terms of for Christians, I
don't think things like thatwouldn't be an issue.
So maybe they're not going tochurch with you, but you can
still have them over and have ameal with them and celebrate the
holiday regardless and not tryto impose anything on them or
make them feel bad becausethey're not on the same level as
you of observance.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, and all of that's very hard, particularly
for a very observant family.
How do you prepare for an adultchild bringing home, someone
they're introducing to you forthe first time?
Speaker 4 (24:29):
How do you prepare as parents?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, as parents.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Yeah, I mean it's a little bit nerve wracking
because you don't know, You'venever met them before, maybe
you've heard about them, butit's a little bit nerve-wracking
.
The main thing is just, uh,bite your, you know bite your
tongue don't say anything, befriendly, ask questions, but not
be too nosy.
Just try to be warm and try tobe relaxed as much as possible
(24:54):
and also to tell yourself thatall because they brought them
home doesn't mean that they'regoing to get married tomorrow.
So it could be.
This person is not going to bethe one that they have a
long-term relationship with, sodon't get too anxious right away
, but just do your best to becordial, like you would any
guests that you would have inyour house.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
All of this takes a lot of self-control.
What about sharing a room?
When they come home?
Do you instill your values ordo you let them make their
decision?
Speaker 4 (25:20):
That really depends on where you're coming from and
what you feel is appropriate,and also it depends on if you
have other people in the house.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, I guess that's true.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
If you have younger kids or something that you don't
want them to see, that If it'sjust you and your spouse and it
doesn't bother you, and thenthat's a different story.
But if you have, it alwaysbecomes more complicated when
you have impressionable littleones that you don't necessarily
want to say.
Set a certain example for.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Or the parents' parents, the more you know it's
a whole different world now.
Let's say my daughter wascoming home and my mother was
here.
Do you know what I mean?
Let's say my daughter wascoming home and my mother was
here.
Do you know what I mean?
So three generations.
My mother might have a cow andI have to respect how she would
feel.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (26:05):
yeah, so so it's about being respect,
understanding where everyone'scoming from, who's who's in play
there, who's who's going to beat your house, and then trying
to find creative solutions.
So you know, maybe the neighborhas a guest room, you and
trying to tell your child, eventhough the child's going to
maybe have a harder time.
But look, my mother's here.
It's really uncomfortable forher.
(26:25):
We want your boyfriend to feelcomfortable here, but it just
wouldn't be appropriate for mymother.
Let's try to find a way that wecan give him accommodations
nearby so that you can spendtime together but just can sleep
somewhere else, for example.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Right, good idea.
Okay, so you're a relationshiptherapist and I read a little
bit about your, is it?
Imago Am?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I saying that right.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
And so I'm sure you have a few tools, and I feel
like any relationship is arelationship.
Some of the tools that youshare with husband and wife to
get along can be used whenyou're dealing with your adult
children.
So what are some of the ways torespond in a non-judgmental way
when you're chatting with youradult child?
Your adult child says somethingyou don't quite agree with or
(27:11):
you think is an alarm.
What might be a good way torespond?
Give us a few talking pointsthat parents might use while
their kids are visiting.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Sure, one thing that's really helpful is to
learn how to listen.
We definitely have opinionsthat might be different than our
children.
Our first instinct is to react,to respond, maybe to judge, and
that's going to turn our kidsoff and push them away.
So, even before you evensuggest anything or ask
questions, we have couples andor children.
(27:39):
Parents and children teach themhow to mirror, and that means
to repeat back what the otherperson says.
Now, obviously you want to doit in a way.
In this case this feels a littlebit more natural because
they're going to think you'retrying to do some type of
technique on them, but don'trespond.
They'll say something.
You'll just say oh, it soundslike you're just kind of
paraphrased.
It sounds like you're just kindof paraphrase.
It sounds like you want to,without interpreting.
Sounds like you really want tohave your boyfriend come home
(28:03):
for to our house for two weeks.
You gotta tell me more aboutthat.
Then just let them talk and justkind of get curious instead of
being judgmental, and let themshare what's what's going on.
And then at some point, if, ifyou are feeling, if you want to
share your opinion, or ifthey're asking, you could say
like are you asking for myopinion or you just want to be
heard.
And if they're asking for youropinion, you say, well, here's
(28:25):
what I think and you can shareit in a kind way and just say,
well, you know, from myperspective, it makes sense why
you would validate them.
It makes sense why you wouldwant to do X, y and Z and really
would like to be able to dothat for you, and because of our
circumstances it's not going tobe possible to do this.
Let's find a way together tomake this work.
So you're trying to join themtogether as opposed to being
(28:47):
against them.
But it's really important justto be in touch with your
reactivity, because if you'recoming from a place of
reactivity, it's not a good timeto say anything.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
That's true.
Sometimes, when your adultchild comes home and they live
far away it's your firstopportunity to say how are you
doing at your job?
What are you doing?
How do you learn about thosethings from them?
Maybe you're worried about someof the career choices they're
making or their living choices.
You don't want to jump on themas soon as they walk in the door
.
How do you gradually bring thatkind of stuff up, Because it's
(29:18):
your face time to be able totalk about some real things.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Sure, that makes sense.
You want to know what's goingon, but you want to ask them
right away.
You have to ask yourself howmuch of it's, how much of this,
is coming from my anxiety.
If you're feeling anxious, Ineed to find this information.
They will pick up on it andthey will feel the anxiety and
they will either shut down orthey will get reactive.
They might not be vulnerable.
The most important thing is justto be in relationship with them
(29:45):
when they come home.
Give them a hug, give themsomething to eat, take care of
them.
You know, maybe spend some timewith them, have some fun with
them, just ease in and let themdo the talking.
Let them open up and share it.
How are you doing?
How was your flight?
Make small talk, don't talkabout anything too heavy.
Just let yourselves getreacquainted and connect and
(30:07):
then, as the time that they'restaying with you progresses, you
can gradually bring up thesethings, maybe go for a walk or
share something you're concernedabout, but for sure it's not
something I would do right away.
You want to make sure you havethat relationship there and that
connection.
Even if you have a relationshipby a phone or via Zoom or
whatever it is focus, when theycome home, just on making them
(30:28):
feel welcome at home.
Then, when it's the time whenyou feel more connected, that'll
be a time to talk about it.
Let's say, after dinner you'resitting on the couch and
everyone's just talking and some.
Then you can kind of open upand maybe they'll start sharing
about what's going on but I lovewhat you said.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Try to figure out whether it's your anxiety or
just the need to, becausesometimes it only is your
anxiety and you've got to put alid on that.
I appreciate your time today.
I would love you to leave ourlisteners with one or two
takeaways to get them preppedfor their visits with their
adult children for the holidays.
What do you hope they take awayfrom what you just said?
Speaker 4 (31:04):
The most important thing?
I think the most importantthing is to do your best to
enjoy the time with your kids,especially if you don't see them
very often.
This is a very special timetogether that we would like both
of you to remember and you wantthem to come back, so really
focusing on enjoying each other.
Parents worry all the time andwe need to be able to give up
control and to realize nowthey're adults, now as much as
(31:27):
we're there to help them, butthey're not little kids anymore.
So we have to be able to let goand to try to empower them, to
trust them that they can makethe right decisions and, when
it's appropriate, to insertourselves, but just to be
mindful that we cannot controlevery little thing they do and
we don't want to know everythingthey're doing either, probably.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Probably Well.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciated yourtaking the time today.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
My pleasure, denise, nice meeting you.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Thank you so much to Pamela and Rabbi Slotkin.
What I took away from both ofthese conversations?
That we, as parents, need to bemindful of our actions and our
mindset.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
They are adults now.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Both guests encouraged us to be curious,
flexible and welcoming.
Now let's hope we can just dothat and remember there's no
perfect holidays.
We need to lower ourexpectations and just have fun.
I know Kirsten's going to bemad she's not with me today and
I missed her too, but I just hadto get in here and get this one
(32:27):
done.
Thank you so much again toConnie Gore at Fisher, our audio
and production engineer.
You have no idea the work sheputs into making these sound
okay.
Please write to us atBiteYourTonguePodcast at
gmailcom, share your commentsand ideas, and also please
consider supporting our effortsby going to our website,
biteyourtonguepodcastcom andbuying us a virtual cup of
(32:50):
coffee.
You can make a donation as lowas $5.
And lastly, remember, follow uson Facebook and Instagram.
We put so much out there and wethink you'll get a lot from it.
Have a great holiday season, ahappy new year and remember most
of the time during the holidays, you probably have to bite your
(33:11):
tongue.
We can't expect the holidays to look the same way
they always did.
That's just not healthy, that'snot wise, because these adult
children now have a say.
They will have families oftheir own.
You will have to learn to share, and so this season is all
about again going back to a momtaking care of that inner stuff.
That is all about her and notabout her kids.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue the
podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
I'm Denise and I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will
join us as we explore the insand outs of building healthy
relationships with our adultchildren.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Together, we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt
stories and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Get ready to dive deep and learn, to build and
nurture deep connections withour adult children and, of
course, when, to bite ourtongues.
So let's get started.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Bite your
Tongue, the podcast.
I'm Denise and today Kirsten'snot with me, because I decided
at the last minute to do thisquick holiday episode.
I thought here we are runningaround frantically during this
month I think it's mid-Decemberright now and why are we all
running around like crazy?
Whatever we're celebrating,we're getting our homes ready,
(01:22):
we're doing this, we're doingthat.
It's become a crazy time ofyear, so let's consider this a
quick, short episode aboutvisiting our adult children
during the holidays or how toprepare for them to come home
and not get stressed.
We're going to talk to twopeople, so let's get started.
First we're going to welcomePamela Heckelman, a certified
(01:43):
Empty Nest coach, speaker andpodcaster.
I first found her through herpodcast, midlife Mama, and she
also has a lot of great blogposts on her website.
She's graciously offered all ofour listeners a free handout
called your Kids Are Grown Nowwhat?
I'll put that link in ourepisode notes.
(02:04):
After Pamela, we're shiftinggears and welcoming Rabbi Shlomo
Schlotkin.
We're definitely a secularpodcast, respecting all beliefs.
When I read some of the rabbi'steachings, especially about
young adults, I thought he mightbe a great person to talk to.
He's a licensed professionalcounselor and what I really
liked is he's a certified Imagorelationship therapist.
(02:26):
Imago relationship therapy isabout couples counseling or
couples therapy, and I reallybelieve that any relationship
counseling couples, our adultchildren, our friends all have
some of the same techniques.
I learned that through ourepisode with Susan Heitler, so
it's all about the relationshipand I thought he'd be really
great.
(02:47):
We're going to start withPamela, so let's dive into the
conversation and get started.
Welcome, pamela.
Is there anything I missed inyour intro that you want to add
before we get started with theepisode and our questions?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Sure.
Well, first of all, I want tosay I'm just a mom who has
failed and fallen and learnedsome really important lessons,
and so I hope you feel likeyou're like that too, and we're
all just here to grow a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
We are.
It's funny.
I just posted something onInstagram of followers said gosh
, I feel this exact way and myyoungest is 24 or something.
I think we all thought we weredone when we were 18.
And this second stage that noone understands is really the
longest relationship we'll havein our lives with our kids.
So I think we're all in thesame boat.
You are, but today we'retalking about holidays.
(03:35):
It's holidays, but also anytimeyour adult kids come home,
particularly if they live out ofstate, I think there's anxiety
on both parts.
Why do you think people get alittle bit anxious when the
adult kids come home?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Well, I think because everything's changed.
And the funny thing is, why isit?
When we get back into our mom'shouse, we all feel 14?
Why is that?
I do not know, but it is aphenomenon that I know that our
children are walking through,and so what can we do to make
them feel better?
I want my home to be a havenfor my kids, that, no matter
(04:11):
where they're, at what they'regoing through, home is a safe
place to land, and I think momalways sets the tone in the home
.
She just always does.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
They're coming home, all these things that have gone
through our minds when they'regone, like how's that
relationship with Sally?
Is your job going okay?
Is your apartment rent going up?
And we want to ask all thesethings.
So the tension's in us.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
have any suggestion on how we just welcome them
without all of this baggage thatthey can almost see in our face
?
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Right, right.
Well, I think the best thingyou can do is care for yourself
beforehand and think it through.
If you know there's a topicthat is emotionally triggering
for you, that's on you, then youdo the work, whether you need
to go for a walk, you need tojournal, you need to find a
counselor.
If you're a woman of faith,then you need to pray, but take
(05:03):
care of yourself and manage someof those emotions.
I think it's really importantfor women to have emotional
confidence, to know what to do,to respond well, so that it
doesn't get all this stirred upinside of us.
We've got to take care ofourselves.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I think so much we put on our kids and we really
have to look into ourselves.
It's funny you said that aboutturning 14 when we go home.
I can remember well intoadulthood, going to my parents'
house and becoming a slob.
I mean, my house is so neat.
So now when my kids come home,I just look at all the shoes by
the front door, I look at allthe jackets hanging over the
(05:42):
thing rather than hanging up andI just say, okay, it's just a
week, it's just a week.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
It's just a week.
Yes, it's just a week.
Those 14 coffee mugs that Ikeep running through the
dishwasher.
You know what we did in ourfamily.
This was probably before COVID.
I was tired of doing all thecooking and the prep and I said
you know what?
We're going to take turns andyour family gets this meal, and
your family gets this meal andyour family gets this meal and
(06:10):
then they're responsible to buyall the food, cook all the food,
serve the food and clean up.
It has taken all the pressureoff me and my husband because
I'm like honey, get out of thekitchen, you're cleaning the
dishes again.
And my husband because I'm likehoney, get out of the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
You're cleaning the dishes again.
This year, for the first time,my son and his girlfriend are
coming home and I said you arecooking Christmas Eve?
And he wrote back and said,fine, because I just wasn't up
for it.
I just was like I can't do it.
I'll tell you a funny story.
My mom used to label.
I thought you were going to saythis.
She used to label our cups, soshe would take sticky notes and
(06:46):
say this is Denise's, this isda-da-da-da-da, but I finally
understand how my mother felt.
How do you feel?
Let's talk about when a kidcomes home and they have chosen
a very different lifestyle thanyours whether it be religious,
whether it be, I don't know.
Kids can have lots of differentkinds of lifestyles.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
How do you?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
handle that You're all going to church or you're
all going to temple or you'repraying at the dinner table and
they're completely off the tablewith that.
What's your advice to parentsfor that?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Well, first of all, I think this is the season of
listening.
Our adult kids want our empathyand our understanding.
We don't have to agree withwhat they're doing, but we owe
it to them to sit down and saytell me all about it, tell me
where you're coming from, andthen just listen.
Listening does not equalagreeing and I think sometimes
(07:36):
moms are afraid to listenbecause they're like, well, if I
listen, then they'll think Iagree with it.
Your kids know where you standon everything.
They were raised in your home.
They deserve the dignity ofbeing listened to and
empathizing with.
If you want to go to church andyour child doesn't, you say,
hey, we're going to church atsix, are you up for it?
And when they say no, you justsay, okay, sounds great.
(07:58):
Don't make a big deal about it,don't make them feel bad about
it.
It's all about just this gracetowards each other and actually
kindness.
Could we just be a little morekind?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Everything you're saying is right.
It's just always hard work.
I looked at this article onlinethat you wrote and it said tips
for joyful holiday season,longing for the Christmas past,
and that was a sentiment I couldreally relate to, because once
those kids are grown, if there'sno grandbabies, there's a whole
different feel around theholidays.
But I want to go into some ofyour topics.
(08:30):
First, you wrote definingexpectations.
Give us that advice on definingexpectations.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Okay, well, first of all, let's understand what an
expectation is.
It is the strong belief thatyou have about the proper way
someone should behave orsomething should happen.
So moms have all theseexpectations around Christmas.
It should look like this andit's we're going to do it here
and we're going to eat this, andthese people are going to be
present.
(08:56):
And this is what it looks like.
And if it doesn't go like that,mama is going to be unhappy, and
what that does is expectationsare just the fuel for
disappointment, and when youtake disappointment far enough,
it can become in bitterness, andthen, whenever you're around
these people, you're just likewell, I'm going to reject them
(09:18):
because they rejected me, andactually that's just not true.
Because's not true?
Because we can't expect theholidays to look the same way
they always did.
That's just not healthy, that'snot wise, because these adult
children now have a say.
They will have families oftheir own.
You will have to learn to share, and so this season is all
about again going back to a momtaking care of that inner stuff.
(09:41):
That is all about her and notabout her kids.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I love that All about her and not about her kids.
I love that all about her andnot about our kids.
We have to step outside ofourselves.
So the second thing you wrotewas practicing adaptability and
flexibility.
That's the key.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
That is the key that unlocks the joy of the holiday
season.
When the kids say we're notcoming home because we're going
to be with my wife's parents,you have to say, okay, that
sounds great, we'll see you nextyear, hopefully.
Like when our first child gotmarried, we have this.
They came to us and said we'vedecided that we're going to
spend Thanksgiving with you andChristmas with my wife's family
(10:19):
and then we're going toflip-flop so we did that for
years.
Now.
The rest of the family.
They would be like oh, kim andMichelle aren't going to be here
this year.
I said, yeah, it is sad, butthey'll be with us next year.
Everybody has to learn to adapt.
Flexibility is key.
It's just so important.
You will have more joy, youwill have more peace and you
won't be so frustrated.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And maybe you'll find some time for yourself, because
no one's around.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Maybe you and your husband can go somewhere and do
something fun, Exactly Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I love this one Understanding that our adult
kids aren't responsible for ourhappiness because our lives were
so filled raising our kids andnow they're gone and they're
building their own lives.
People ask me what makes youhappy?
I say when my kids are around,and really they're not
responsible for my happiness, sotell us more about that.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
This again, it's on mom.
It's on what she's going to dowith herself, what she's going
to do with her giftings and herstrengths.
What can she look forward to?
What could?
What new thing could spring up?
I didn't start podcasting orwriting or coaching until my
nest was empty.
Maybe number four was headingout the door.
But I had been a speaker for along time and whenever I would
(11:31):
speak, people would say, hey,you need to write a book.
And I'm like, well, I shouldwrite a book.
Why am I going to write a book?
I should learn how to write abook because I've never written
anything publicly, and sothere's so much in us that you
can discover and you can justtry.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
It's hard, though.
You really have to haveconfidence.
I didn't do this until I was anempty nest and that sort of
thing too a completely differentcareer, but it's hard.
You really step out of yoursafety zone and yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
That's where the good stuff happens.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Utilizing open communication.
So I love this.
Help us with that.
What is open communication?
Maybe some tips on openingconversations, that sort of
thing.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Right.
So when it comes to theholidays and your kids do become
older and move on and havetheir own lives, there comes a
time when you all have to sitdown and have a conversation and
say, hey, can we talk about theholidays?
I want to know what are youthinking about for the holidays
this year, or how would you likethem to look?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
now.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Okay.
I don't know.
Oh, so you're telling me youdon't have an opinion and it
doesn't matter to you.
Then they do have an opinionwhen they come home.
And then what matters to youmost?
Because for some our kids aregoing to value different things,
and maybe the meal is mostimportant, maybe it's time
sitting on the couch all piledtogether watching their favorite
(12:52):
movie, maybe it's goingsledding, maybe it's going
shopping Whatever's mostmeaningful to you.
For us, it's our annualgingerbread decorating
competition.
We are fierce competitorsbecause they're all artistic and
I'm like I have zero artisticability in the way of drawing
and such, and so I'm just like,oh, I'm just going to make.
I don't even know what I'mgoing to make, but I'm not going
(13:13):
to win because you all are sotalented.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
What you just said there struck something for me.
You said maybe it's your meal,maybe it's piled on the couch
watching a movie, maybe it'sthis, maybe it's that.
All those are very idyllic.
I think the holidays havebecome harder with social media
and with okay, everyone else issledding, everyone else is doing
gingerbread competitions,everybody else is in the kitchen
(13:37):
and no one's making a mess, butthey're all cooking.
No, it's all a big mess, right,but anyway, I'm just saying.
I think the stress on familiesto make it special makes it even
harder.
Maybe that's the expectationthing.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, maybe it's just make it comfortable.
Make it comfortable, if y'alldon't want to do anything, do
anything together, at least justabout feeling comfortable, I
think.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
This last one.
Maybe we talked about itChoosing what matters most and
letting go of the rest.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Right, that's just it .
I think you'll have more peaceif you just let things go.
Let it go If it doesn't matterto anybody.
I made these popcorn balls for35 years and I used to hide them
for my grandma.
Then I would hide them for mymom and I asked my kids last
year I said do you like thosepopcorn balls?
She's like no, we don't needthem.
I'm like what?
I was like wow, I don't have tomake those popcorn balls.
(14:31):
I'm shocked.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Oh, that's so funny yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I guess, I think.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I think the hard part is I don't know how to say this
, but it's like when they comehome and you're right being
accepting and all of that, butyou're not composting.
The big joke now on socialmedia, on TV, is everything in
my mother's refrigerator is 20years old or whatever but it's
hard to deal with all that.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, you just say you know what, you get your
choices and I get mine.
So back off, sometimes I thinkwe got to get a little spicy.
Yeah, I think you just got tohandle it back, hand it back
instead of getting like offendedand hurt.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I think you're right.
Okay, so now, before we go toyour takeaways, I want you to
tell our listeners a little bitabout your free resource called
your Kids Are Grown Now.
What will they find in this ifthey go to the episode notes and
download it?
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah.
So this is a robust guide justto help midlife moms understand
the different phases of midlifemotherhood.
I divided into three phases.
The empty feeling mom, like herchildren have first left and
she's desperately sad anddoesn't know what to do with
herself.
And then there's thequestioning mom where she's like
well, wow, what is this goingto look like now?
What is this going to look likenow?
(15:40):
I wonder what I should do withmy life.
I wonder what's next.
And then there's thecelebratory mom who's like this
is not bad and this emptiness isa lovely place to be.
It's not bad, I know myselfbetter.
I'm walking in what I wassupposed to be doing, yeah, so
it's just kind of helping momsknow what to expect in each of
(16:00):
those areas.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
That's great, all right.
So, pamela, before we close, Ilike my guests to leave our
listeners with two takeawaysthey'd like them to remember
from this interview.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Right.
I would say the two things youwanna do with your adult kids
during the holidays is listen.
Well, listen, listen, listen.
You don't even have to ask anyquestion, except tell me what
you're thinking, tell me what'sgoing on and then be flexible.
A rigid mom is an unhappy mom.
A rigid mom who says it has tobe this way, this way, this way,
(16:32):
she's going to be unhappy.
But a flexible mom learns thatthe family ebbs and flows and
things will change and it'sgoing to be okay.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That's great.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
I wish you a joyous holidayseason with your family and a
really messy kitchen during thatgingerbread making contest.
It sounds like a lot of fun.
Thank you, you and yours too.
Thank you so much.
Lot of fun, thank you, you andyours too.
Thank you so much.
So that was great.
I think Pam had a lot of veryinteresting things to say, and
(17:02):
now we're going to move on toRabbi Slotkin.
I introduced him at the onsetof the episode, so we're anxious
to hear what he has to say.
So welcome, rabbi Slotkin.
It's great that you were ableto join us today.
When I wrote to you, you sentme a list of key points about
adult kids coming home for theholidays or anytime you're
visiting your adult kids, andI'd like you to just expand a
(17:25):
little bit on each of thosepoints.
The first one you said to mewas boundaries.
You say that your adult childwill probably want to set
boundaries.
Let them so.
Tell us about this.
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (17:37):
want to set boundaries, let them.
So tell us about this.
What do you mean by that?
Sure, so I mean it's very it'snormal for parents to have a
hard time kind of giving spacefor their children.
Because of the love you havefor your children, you want to
spend time with them when youwant to spend time with them,
which is not always a good timefor them.
There may be differences ofopinions that you have If they
are in a relationship, ifthey're married, you may not
agree with some of the thingsthat they do in terms of as they
(17:59):
can maintain their autonomy astheir own person and not just
your appendage, but their ownadult and to learn how to
(18:21):
individuate, and it's notnecessarily a bad thing.
The challenge is like when itbecomes so much about boundaries
that it's all about boundariesthat I can't be in relationship
with you.
That's where it gets a littlebit problematic To set healthy
boundaries, to share what'scomfortable for them when
they're available, when they'renot available, and for the
adults to be able to respectthem, the parents to be able to
(18:42):
respect them.
I think that's a fair ask, eventhough it's hard.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
It is hard.
It's hard.
This is something that's nevercome up before.
I know that you do this couplescounseling Be on the same page
with your spouse or partner.
I could see that it could getbad if you're respecting the
boundaries and your husband orpartner is not.
Do you discuss this beforehand?
How might you prepare to be onthe same page with your spouse
or partner?
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Sure, I see this a lot.
I see this with the kids adultkids and I see it with parents.
They have different opinionsabout their children or their
in-laws, different relationshipsand, when the holidays are
about to come, if they can havea conversation about it and
really be clear about what theyneed, the type of support they
need from their partner, it'sgoing to be really helpful.
(19:26):
So, again, whether it's theparents or whether it's the
children, being a united frontis going to be helpful to get
their message across, becauseusually what happens if they're
not a united front?
One person leaves feelingmarginalized and it's a very
uncomfortable situation andthey're not going to want to be
with you the next holiday oryou're not going to want to have
them the next holiday becauseit's just too much tension.
(19:48):
If you're both clear about whenyou're feeling triggered, what
are the type of things that youcan foresee based on past
experiences, it's a great thingto talk about beforehand and get
clarity about what you needfrom your partner to support you
, so that you also, like you'renot contradicting each other,
you're not doing anything thatwould kind of get in the way or
make the other person yourspouse feel bad.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I think that's really a great.
I think for the adult kids too.
I remember with my husband andI when we used to visit his
parents.
I would say now, compliment meevery so often or support what I
say Didn't always happen, butwe did try to set those ground
rules, so I think that's a greatidea.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
It's important, especially if you have a history
of challenges and conflict inthat relationship and holiday
time.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Right, Even not conflict, just not always
feeling seen when you go to hishouse.
He's the child when you go toyour house.
You're the child, so there's awhole different relationship
going on there, and it'simportant to figure out how to
both support your parents, butalso support your partner that
you're bringing home, or yourhusband.
That's a big circle.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Yeah, you want to be seen.
You don't want to just be likeforget about it.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Here she comes again, the one who took my son.
Okay, then you say this onejust sent me, don't get stressed
.
Oh, come on.
This is a very stressful time,whether they're coming for the
holidays, whether they'revisiting for a week in the
summer with the grandkids.
It's stress, it's stress, crazystress.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah, it is crazy stress, but it's all dependent
on our mindset.
If we're going to let it botherus, if we're going to just
relax and try to not control thesituation.
The more we try to control theoutcome, the more stressful it's
going to be, because everythinghas to be a certain way and
we're not able to be flexiblewhen things don't go that way,
which usually happens.
(21:33):
So the more that you can justdo your best to be present and
to just expect the unexpected,it will be a lot less of a
stressful experience.
The stress about them coming isgoing to impact your
relationship too.
So it's like you know, we'reentertaining, we're going to
have this, we're having ourparents come over for the
holidays.
Oh, everything has to look.
You know, let's say, maybe thedaughter-in-law like everything
has to be perfect and the househas to be clean, and then you
(21:56):
know you get in fights with thehusband and with the children
and that's in the end.
It might be a nice experience,but the time it takes to get
there and prepare it's miserable.
It's not something that peopleare going to look forward to on
a year to year basis.
If it's, if there's so muchstress going into preparation
for the holidays.
So doing your best, notpressure yourself, that you have
to impress anyone, that youhave to be Martha Stewart or you
(22:16):
know.
Have this perfect table.
That do the best that you can,and the main point is that
everyone loves each other.
Regardless of how good the mealis, how fancy the decor is, the
main point is that everyone'sspending time together at this
time of year.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
You're right.
I think, also for adaughter-in-law in particular,
your mother-in-law could bejudgmental oh my gosh, she's not
using cloth napkins.
Maybe all you could do was findthe paper ones in the bottom
drawer.
But I think what you're sayingmakes sense.
If you can let that go, itmight be a better experience for
everyone.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Now, these are a couple of questions that we
didn't talk about before, but Iwant to ask you, particularly
being a rabbi.
We are a secular podcast andall your advice is you know,
certainly across the board, buthow about when your child has
strayed from the family religion?
Your child comes home and it isa religious holiday whether it
be the high holidays for theJews, Christmas, hanukkah,
(23:10):
easter and you're observant.
How do you deal with your childand his or her partner coming
home and they're not observant?
Speaker 4 (23:17):
I think the main thing is to be accepting and
loving, because if you want themone day to even want to come
back to observance, you want tohave them have a positive
experience.
So the main thing is just notto force anything on them, just
invite them to have them theresharing the holiday with you.
(23:38):
That's the main thing.
Giving them that unconditionallove, no judgment.
That's going to be the best wayto have the holiday.
Now, look, it depends on thereligion and the customs and the
laws.
Some things can become more, Iwould say, tricky, depending,
but I think for most people Imean, we have laws in terms of
you're not supposed to drive onthe Sabbath.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Oh, right right.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
But now I would say in terms of for Christians, I
don't think things like thatwouldn't be an issue.
So maybe they're not going tochurch with you, but you can
still have them over and have ameal with them and celebrate the
holiday regardless and not tryto impose anything on them or
make them feel bad becausethey're not on the same level as
you of observance.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, and all of that's very hard, particularly
for a very observant family.
How do you prepare for an adultchild bringing home, someone
they're introducing to you forthe first time?
Speaker 4 (24:29):
How do you prepare as parents?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, as parents.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Yeah, I mean it's a little bit nerve wracking
because you don't know, You'venever met them before, maybe
you've heard about them, butit's a little bit nerve-wracking
.
The main thing is just, uh,bite your, you know bite your
tongue don't say anything, befriendly, ask questions, but not
be too nosy.
Just try to be warm and try tobe relaxed as much as possible
(24:54):
and also to tell yourself thatall because they brought them
home doesn't mean that they'regoing to get married tomorrow.
So it could be.
This person is not going to bethe one that they have a
long-term relationship with, sodon't get too anxious right away
, but just do your best to becordial, like you would any
guests that you would have inyour house.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
All of this takes a lot of self-control.
What about sharing a room?
When they come home?
Do you instill your values ordo you let them make their
decision?
Speaker 4 (25:20):
That really depends on where you're coming from and
what you feel is appropriate,and also it depends on if you
have other people in the house.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, I guess that's true.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
If you have younger kids or something that you don't
want them to see, that If it'sjust you and your spouse and it
doesn't bother you, and thenthat's a different story.
But if you have, it alwaysbecomes more complicated when
you have impressionable littleones that you don't necessarily
want to say.
Set a certain example for.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Or the parents' parents, the more you know it's
a whole different world now.
Let's say my daughter wascoming home and my mother was
here.
Do you know what I mean?
Let's say my daughter wascoming home and my mother was
here.
Do you know what I mean?
So three generations.
My mother might have a cow andI have to respect how she would
feel.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (26:05):
yeah, so so it's about being respect,
understanding where everyone'scoming from, who's who's in play
there, who's who's going to beat your house, and then trying
to find creative solutions.
So you know, maybe the neighborhas a guest room, you and
trying to tell your child, eventhough the child's going to
maybe have a harder time.
But look, my mother's here.
It's really uncomfortable forher.
(26:25):
We want your boyfriend to feelcomfortable here, but it just
wouldn't be appropriate for mymother.
Let's try to find a way that wecan give him accommodations
nearby so that you can spendtime together but just can sleep
somewhere else, for example.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Right, good idea.
Okay, so you're a relationshiptherapist and I read a little
bit about your, is it?
Imago Am?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I saying that right.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
And so I'm sure you have a few tools, and I feel
like any relationship is arelationship.
Some of the tools that youshare with husband and wife to
get along can be used whenyou're dealing with your adult
children.
So what are some of the ways torespond in a non-judgmental way
when you're chatting with youradult child?
Your adult child says somethingyou don't quite agree with or
(27:11):
you think is an alarm.
What might be a good way torespond?
Give us a few talking pointsthat parents might use while
their kids are visiting.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Sure, one thing that's really helpful is to
learn how to listen.
We definitely have opinionsthat might be different than our
children.
Our first instinct is to react,to respond, maybe to judge, and
that's going to turn our kidsoff and push them away.
So, even before you evensuggest anything or ask
questions, we have couples andor children.
(27:39):
Parents and children teach themhow to mirror, and that means
to repeat back what the otherperson says.
Now, obviously you want to doit in a way.
In this case this feels a littlebit more natural because
they're going to think you'retrying to do some type of
technique on them, but don'trespond.
They'll say something.
You'll just say oh, it soundslike you're just kind of
paraphrased.
It sounds like you're just kindof paraphrase.
It sounds like you want to,without interpreting.
Sounds like you really want tohave your boyfriend come home
(28:03):
for to our house for two weeks.
You gotta tell me more aboutthat.
Then just let them talk and justkind of get curious instead of
being judgmental, and let themshare what's what's going on.
And then at some point, if, ifyou are feeling, if you want to
share your opinion, or ifthey're asking, you could say
like are you asking for myopinion or you just want to be
heard.
And if they're asking for youropinion, you say, well, here's
(28:25):
what I think and you can shareit in a kind way and just say,
well, you know, from myperspective, it makes sense why
you would validate them.
It makes sense why you wouldwant to do X, y and Z and really
would like to be able to dothat for you, and because of our
circumstances it's not going tobe possible to do this.
Let's find a way together tomake this work.
So you're trying to join themtogether as opposed to being
(28:47):
against them.
But it's really important justto be in touch with your
reactivity, because if you'recoming from a place of
reactivity, it's not a good timeto say anything.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
That's true.
Sometimes, when your adultchild comes home and they live
far away it's your firstopportunity to say how are you
doing at your job?
What are you doing?
How do you learn about thosethings from them?
Maybe you're worried about someof the career choices they're
making or their living choices.
You don't want to jump on themas soon as they walk in the door
.
How do you gradually bring thatkind of stuff up, Because it's
(29:18):
your face time to be able totalk about some real things.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Sure, that makes sense.
You want to know what's goingon, but you want to ask them
right away.
You have to ask yourself howmuch of it's, how much of this,
is coming from my anxiety.
If you're feeling anxious, Ineed to find this information.
They will pick up on it andthey will feel the anxiety and
they will either shut down orthey will get reactive.
They might not be vulnerable.
The most important thing is justto be in relationship with them
(29:45):
when they come home.
Give them a hug, give themsomething to eat, take care of
them.
You know, maybe spend some timewith them, have some fun with
them, just ease in and let themdo the talking.
Let them open up and share it.
How are you doing?
How was your flight?
Make small talk, don't talkabout anything too heavy.
Just let yourselves getreacquainted and connect and
(30:07):
then, as the time that they'restaying with you progresses, you
can gradually bring up thesethings, maybe go for a walk or
share something you're concernedabout, but for sure it's not
something I would do right away.
You want to make sure you havethat relationship there and that
connection.
Even if you have a relationshipby a phone or via Zoom or
whatever it is focus, when theycome home, just on making them
(30:28):
feel welcome at home.
Then, when it's the time whenyou feel more connected, that'll
be a time to talk about it.
Let's say, after dinner you'resitting on the couch and
everyone's just talking and some.
Then you can kind of open upand maybe they'll start sharing
about what's going on but I lovewhat you said.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Try to figure out whether it's your anxiety or
just the need to, becausesometimes it only is your
anxiety and you've got to put alid on that.
I appreciate your time today.
I would love you to leave ourlisteners with one or two
takeaways to get them preppedfor their visits with their
adult children for the holidays.
What do you hope they take awayfrom what you just said?
Speaker 4 (31:04):
The most important thing?
I think the most importantthing is to do your best to
enjoy the time with your kids,especially if you don't see them
very often.
This is a very special timetogether that we would like both
of you to remember and you wantthem to come back, so really
focusing on enjoying each other.
Parents worry all the time andwe need to be able to give up
control and to realize nowthey're adults, now as much as
(31:27):
we're there to help them, butthey're not little kids anymore.
So we have to be able to let goand to try to empower them, to
trust them that they can makethe right decisions and, when
it's appropriate, to insertourselves, but just to be
mindful that we cannot controlevery little thing they do and
we don't want to know everythingthey're doing either, probably.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Probably Well.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciated yourtaking the time today.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
My pleasure, denise, nice meeting you.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Thank you so much to Pamela and Rabbi Slotkin.
What I took away from both ofthese conversations?
That we, as parents, need to bemindful of our actions and our
mindset.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
They are adults now.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Both guests encouraged us to be curious,
flexible and welcoming.
Now let's hope we can just dothat and remember there's no
perfect holidays.
We need to lower ourexpectations and just have fun.
I know Kirsten's going to bemad she's not with me today and
I missed her too, but I just hadto get in here and get this one
(32:27):
done.
Thank you so much again toConnie Gore at Fisher, our audio
and production engineer.
You have no idea the work sheputs into making these sound
okay.
Please write to us atBiteYourTonguePodcast at
gmailcom, share your commentsand ideas, and also please
consider supporting our effortsby going to our website,
biteyourtonguepodcastcom andbuying us a virtual cup of
(32:50):
coffee.
You can make a donation as lowas $5.
And lastly, remember, follow uson Facebook and Instagram.
We put so much out there and wethink you'll get a lot from it.
Have a great holiday season, ahappy new year and remember most
of the time during the holidays, you probably have to bite your
(33:11):
tongue.
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