May 2, 2025 • 54 mins
In today's episode, Dr. Gene Beresin, Executive Director of the Clay Center for Young and Healthy Minds, explores the complexities of adult children returning home and maintaining healthy relationships during life transitions. Based on four decades of experience with youth and young adults plus his personal journey as a father of four whose adult children all boomeranged at some point, he offers practical wisdom for navigating these delicate family dynamics.
Drawing on revolutionary brain science, Dr. Beresin challenges our traditional understanding of development, revealing that neurobiologically, adolescence doesn't end at 18—but continues until age 26. This critical insight reshapes how we approach relationships with young adults who are still developing the neural connections between emotional impulses and rational decision-making.
For parents navigating the return of an adult child, transparency becomes essential. Conversations about finances—typically avoided in most families—need prioritization alongside discussions about household expectations, timelines, and mutual support. "The rare family that speaks openly about money," Dr. Beresin notes, "is better equipped to navigate these transitions without resentment building." The key lies in balancing empathy for the challenges young adults face with appropriate boundaries that foster continued growth.
He also reminds us of what he calls the "oxygen mask principle"—the essential reminder that both parents and adult children must attend to their own emotional regulation and self-care before attempting to help each other. When both generations put on their metaphorical oxygen masks first, they create the foundation for authentic communication, mutual respect, and relationships that continue evolving through life's inevitable transitions.
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
One important principle.
I think that applies to bothparents and teens and young
adults themselves.
For the parents, it's like whenthe flight attendant says, if
the oxygen drops, put the lifemask on yourself first and then
help the person next to you.
If we don't control our ownanxiety and our own emotional
state, we can't help our kidsage they are, whether they're
(00:23):
very, very young or whetherthey're young adults.
So we have to basically controlour own emotions and anxiety
through self-care and well-beingworn out term, but it's it's,
it's valid, I mean and thatmeans diet, exercise, nutrition,
good sleep you know all thethings that folks talk about
meditation and the same thing istrue for young people that they
(00:46):
have to learn to kind of takecare of themselves and their
emotions.
Then they're in the mostpositive position to actually
take advice, take it in, trysomething different.
We all need to kind of put onour life masks together.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
We kind of put on our life masks together.
Hey everyone, welcome to Biteyour Tongue the podcast.
Join me, your host, deniseGorin, as we explore the ins and
outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
(01:25):
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when to
bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of Bite your
Tongue the podcast.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of Bite your
(01:48):
Tongue the podcast.
We are so glad you're with us.
Today we're answering alistener's question, but stay
tuned because we're going toanswer lots of other questions
too, because our guest has beenworking with kids and younger
adults for over 40 years.
Today we're speaking to Dr GeneBoreson.
He's Executive Director of theClay Center for Young and
(02:08):
Healthy Minds at MassachusettsGeneral Hospital in Boston.
He's also a full professor ofpsychiatry at Harvard Medical
School.
One of our listeners wrote along email asking about issues
involving a boomerang kid.
Not your typical boomerang kid,but an adult child who leaves
the nest, sets out on his or herown, is completely financially
(02:32):
responsible, finished college,maybe even married, and then
suddenly they're back in yourhome, sometimes even depending
on you financially.
Gene wrote an article aboutthis a few years ago and we
thought we'd get his perspective, but he reminded us that the
article was written before COVID, so lots has changed and he's
(02:52):
got a lot to share.
So we hope to talk to Gene todayabout that, but also pick his
brain about many other things.
He tells me he's got a lot tosay about building healthy
relationships with adultchildren and their children.
He's a father of four with ninegrandchildren.
Almost all of them moved homeafter college or between college
(03:14):
or after grad school, and allof them have kids, making family
relationships complex butincredibly rich and rewarding.
So let's get started.
So welcome, gene.
We're so happy you're joiningus.
For listeners I might mentionthat Gene worked with Ellen for
many years at both the ClayCenter and at Harvard.
(03:36):
So welcome again, gene.
Did I miss anything in theintroduction?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, one thing that's new.
Our chair, maurizio Fava, atMass General established a
division of professional andpublic mental health education,
and what that combines is theMGH Psychiatry Academy, which is
one of the largest CME programs, that's, continuing medical
education programs in thecountry, if not the world, and
(04:02):
with the Clay Center.
So we do both professionaleducation for people who are in
health professions of allspecialties and connect that
with public mental healtheducation for parents,
caregivers, all who work withyouth, and for youth themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
There's certainly been a demand for mental health
educational sources like this.
Is this the first in thecountry, and what do you think
this will offer to just thegeneral public?
Or why did they establish this.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I guess I should say Well, a couple of things I
should mention.
I'm director of education andDavid Rubin, who runs the psych
academy, is executive director.
So you know, one of myresidents from the past is now
my boss.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Which is great because you know the son is
father to the man, which isprobably not politically correct
.
I don't know how I would say itpolitically correctly, but at
any rate it is unique.
Many departments and programsaround the country have
professional education and, morerarely, public mental health
education, but combining themcovers the waterfront, and the
(05:13):
whole point is that we want tocreate a community of
professionals and everyday folksparents, teachers and young
people themselves to be able tospeak the same language, to talk
together, to have conversationsthat are more sophisticated,
more nuanced.
It saves time, it's efficientand better questions are asked
(05:36):
and better conversations occur.
So you know, as the parents andcaregivers know what to look,
the three W's, as we say at theClay Center, know what to look
for, when to worry, what to doand get some answers, presumably
from the Clay Center's websiteor YouTube channel.
And the professionals areonline and even those who are
not mental health professionals,like primary care pediatricians
(05:59):
and primary care nursepractitioners and others, know
more about mental health.
Then we're all better informedwith a trusted resource and we
all can actually talk with eachother in a more kind of
thoughtful and expedient way.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
That's great.
Well, congratulations, becauseI think there's a need for this.
There aren't enoughquote-unquote mental health
professionals in the world, sohaving others that also
understand this, from nursepractitioners to internal
medicine doctors, to all of this, that have a more knowledgeable
view, is going to help everyone.
So I will definitely link theClay Center in the podcast notes
(06:36):
so everyone knows more aboutthis.
So lots of help on this sitetoo, for both young people and
young adults, and I loved yourthree W's.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
So let's, get started here.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
We're going to start with the listener question,
which I shared with you.
She wrote a very long emailthat basically said parenting
was a strength of hers.
She raised her kids to beadults.
They went to college, they gotjobs and all of a sudden, at 29,
her son was back home, and shedidn't give the circumstances of
the situation, she just saidhe's home, he's living here.
(07:12):
I don't know what to do.
Do I set up parameters?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
What do parents do in these kinds of situations.
Before we talk about what theydo, I think you should kind of
think about what are theparental concerns, what are the
young person's concerns, andthen how can they work together?
Some of the parent concerns are, and it depends whether there
are any other kids home, butlet's just say that there are no
other kids home.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I think she was definitely an empty nester.
She thought she was done.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Everyone thinks they're done when they go off to
college, but really the hardstuff just begins.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
The rule of thumb is that when you're a parent,
you're never done, ever, ever.
You know as a parent and thenas a grandparent, that happens.
So I think that the parentalconcerns are how is this going
to affect my expenses?
How is this going to affect meand anyone else who's living at
home, whether it's my partner ora parent or other relatives?
(08:03):
How is it going to affect thesituation that we have?
Most parents, when their adultkids come home, worry about
their future.
What does this mean?
Are they going to get stuckhere?
What are they going to do next?
How do I know and finally, Ithink you know finances?
I mean very few people in thiscountry have enough money in
(08:24):
retirement savings to live along life.
I mean with life expectancy.
If you make it to 85, as oneprimary care physician said to
me at MGH, you're likely to makeit to 100.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Oh, dear gosh, Okay.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Statistically it's true, but you know everybody's
situation is different.
But from 65, I mean that's anarbitrary number.
I mean many people are workinginto their 70s and some people
retire if they're fortunateenough in their 50s and live on
Social Security and meagersavings.
But most people in this countrydon't have enough money to live
(09:06):
the way they lived when theywere working.
They're trying to squirrel awaymoney and worry about the
economy, and finances get to bereally important.
So that's the parent concerns.
Then you have the young adultconcerns, and that is hopefully.
They're thinking about thingslike what does this mean for my
career?
What am I going to do next If Idon't have any money?
(09:28):
What about my debt?
I mean, do they have studentloans that they're responsible
for?
Do they have a car that theyhave to pay loans on?
And it may be that the parentsused to be helping them out.
But once they're out of collegeand they're supposedly launched
, most parents assume thatthey're going to try to find a
way to kind of cover their ownexpenses.
(09:49):
How do they maintain their senseof independence and autonomy?
I mean, you know when you leavehome whether you're going to
college, as 60% of young adultsdo 18-year-olds-ish do and 40%
don't.
You have your own space.
I mean, you're doing whatyou're supposed to be doing at
that age.
You're supposed to be seekingautonomy, separation,
(10:09):
independence, learning tonavigate the world on your own,
not turning to your parents forevery answer to every question,
and to help support yourself.
Furthermore, to have your ownspace so that you can have some
privacy and start building yourown world.
And then, when you go back home,for many it's kind of like
(10:30):
going to high school again, forboth the kids and for the
parents.
So those are the considerations.
Given those considerations, thequestion is what do we do?
And I think, in general, theanswer is and it's complicated,
it depends on each situation.
First of all, I would havefrequent conversations.
I mean, we need to talk bothabout our situations, our
(10:53):
worries, our concerns and aboutfinances, since that's a really
big concern for many, many emptynesters.
Having another member of thehousehold is an added expense.
I think it's really useful tobe transparent about expenses,
although few people in familiestalk about money.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Someone told me there's a.
What is it?
A 40-70 rule?
Have you heard of it?
70-40 rule or something Beforeyou're 70 or when they're 40,
you tell them everything aboutyour expenses because it should
be transparent to your adultchildren.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
In my experience, it doesn't happen.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
But I think it's important.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It's very important.
I wrote a paper with a friendof mine, mike Jelinek, who was
then chief of child psychiatryat Mass General.
It was called Money and what.
The bottom line of what we saidwas that patients will come in
and they will talk about drugs,sex, rock and roll affairs, all
kinds of sketchy details oftheir private life.
(11:53):
But very few patients, as wellas very few parents, tell their
kids what they're making.
If you ask a young adult whatdoes your parent make a year,
they won't know.
They will not know Now theyshould for various reasons.
(12:14):
But why don't we talk aboutwhat we make?
Why is money in such adifferent category?
I mean, many young people knowthat their parents have had
affairs or have had maritalconflict or have had substance
use problems, that have hadissues with the law, that have
had unemployment.
They had marital conflict orhave had substance use problems,
that have had issues with thelaw, that have had unemployment.
They've been fired.
They know a fair amount ofdetails about the personal,
social, interpersonal aspects oftheir parents' lives.
(12:37):
But I'll bet you, if we asked100 young people what their
parents make, a small fractionwould know and how much is put
away for them.
Some young people don't evenknow that there's a trust fund
for them or that there'sinheritance money put away.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
But sometimes that's good to a certain age.
You don't want your kid tothink, oh, they've got millions
coming to them, so they don'tlaunch themselves.
So there's sort of a balancehere.
We interviewed a woman.
You should get this book byCameron Huddleston Mom and Dad
we Need to Talk, and itbasically lists exactly what you
need to be talking about,because I think everything
(13:11):
you're saying is true and I'mnot 100% sure the kid has to
know everything, but has to havea good sense.
You think about a kid comingback, moving in and parents are
off to Hawaii for a vacation.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
So the kid looks at that.
Oh, they got lots of money, youknow, whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
That doesn't mean they have a lot of money.
It means they saved enough sothey could take this vacation,
which they've wanted to do for100 years.
But the kid who's moved backhome might think oh geez, they
shop at Whole Foods or they wentto Hawaii.
They've got a lot more money soI can stay here for a while.
So that's why I think it needsto be clear.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
So what you're saying , I think, is very important in
that it's not just about money.
It's about sharing what yourgoals, objectives, wishes,
aspirations, plans are for thefuture.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
That's what I think.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
As we move into adult life together, that is, our
young adult children and us.
At home, we need to be talkingabout what we hope to do.
Do we want to sell the houseand downsize?
Do we want to take trips?
Do we want to travel and seethe world?
(14:19):
Do we want to live in an RV andreally save money?
And also, who's going to takecare of the elderly?
If there are the parents'parents still alive or elderly
relatives, what's expected?
What am I planning to do?
And for the kids and for theadults to both know what their
(14:39):
goals and aspirations are, thenthey can brainstorm together
about their plans and they cangive each other advice and they
can talk with each othercandidly.
Why don't you try this?
They can brainstorm together,they can have open conversations
, but if we're not transparent,you can't have these
conversations.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
The adult child has to be open to the conversations.
I would imagine any adult childthat's coming home after
launching and living financiallyindependent is a little
embarrassed and mad.
And when you're embarrassed andmad or embarrassed, I should
say, and unhappy with yourselfit comes out in anger a lot of
times with any age person, but Ithink even more so when it's
(15:21):
your adult child.
So don't bug me, I don't knowwhat I want to do.
I really screwed up.
I don't know I need to be hereand you don't see movement.
But you're empathetic too,because you know things can go
wrong.
And should our home always be asafe space for them to come to
or not?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
It should always be a safe space.
But let me put it two ways.
First of all, even if theydon't come home, they may not
have left home.
In other words, there are kidswho are dependent, and so
dependent on their parents thatthey're calling and texting
every single day and multipletimes a day and they really have
never left home.
(16:01):
They've never progressed tokind of self-sufficiency,
autonomy, independence, andthey're too dependent upon their
parents.
Then they're the ones that comehome, who've achieved some sense
of independence, and they areangry and irritable and
embarrassed and ashamed, oftennot always or they come home and
(16:21):
it's not that they're ashamed,they come home and it's not that
they're ashamed, but they feellike they're imposing.
And then there's the questionof they're interrupting their
parents' lives and it's done outof necessity.
Then the question is well, okay, let's come up with a plan,
let's come up with some waysthat you can kind of feel less
(16:42):
upset and worried and concerned.
What can you do to contributeto the home?
What can we do to helpcontribute to you, to help get
you launched, and you can have,we can have an open conversation
about that.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
I think that's important.
Do you set a timeline for it?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Absolutely Now.
Will that timeline always work?
Well, you know, it's like whatYogi Berra said predictions are
always difficult, especiallyabout the future.
So you know who knows?
I mean, nobody expected COVIDto have a two and a half year
lockdown and look at what thatdid.
I mean that brought a lot ofpeople home in isolation.
(17:20):
Look at what the economicdownturn did and, with climate
change, no-transcript population.
(17:53):
But we'll get to that Before weget to loneliness.
They are among the most sociallyconscious groups that I've seen
since the 60s.
Now, when I was in college, wewere dealing with the war in
Vietnam, we were dealing withthe civil rights movement, we
were dealing with women'sliberation, and it was a very
(18:15):
exciting and important time anda big time of change.
And we were extraordinarilyattentive to what's going on
around us in the country.
And young people the Gen Zs andthe millennials, by the same
token are as well.
They're concerned about thingslike climate change, about
sexual assault, about healthcare, about disparities, not
(18:39):
just in health care but healthcare, but disparities that are
racial, cultural, ethnic, gender, lgbtqia+.
They are very concerned aboutmass shootings and gun control.
They are new activists.
They were thwarted to someextent during COVID, but their
level of social and globalconsciousness is quite
(19:01):
extraordinary and, I think,extremely positive.
On the other hand at the risk ofalienating some of the
listeners out there, there's asense of entitlement.
Out there, there's a sense ofentitlement.
What about me?
We hear about work-life balance.
What that really means is Idon't want to work all the time,
I want to have my comfort zone,I want to have some time to
(19:34):
kick back and relax, and I feelentitled to that because it
comes in part with, I think, ageneral sense of entitlement
that many people feel, both kidsand adults.
I think it's pretty pervasive.
So it's not as though one canbe socially and globally
conscious and aware and care butat the same time try to figure
out how do I balance that withmy own sense of entitlement to
(19:56):
relax, to be with my family, tohave some downtime, to not work,
to take it easy, to have sometime off.
So it's that dialectic thatwe're talking about.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
So I wonder where this comes from.
I have a couple questions and Iwant to ask about when you were
talking about the texting.
But I want to ask about thiswhen does this come from?
And is it across allsocioeconomic levels, you know,
is it more college educated thatyou think are like this?
Is it more affluent familiesthat are like this, kids that
are like this?
And number two, did ourgeneration, the baby boom
(20:32):
generation we were not associally conscious.
I think we worked very hardbecause we were really we're
probably the first generation, Ithink, to have done better than
our parents or something likethat, whereas this next
generation is having a hard timedoing as well as their parents.
How did our role play intowhat's happening right now with
the millennials and Gen Xs andthat sort of thing?
(20:53):
Was it somewhat the way we wereraised?
Did we give them too much?
Did we contribute to this inany way as parents?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
In my experience and all the readings I've read about
these different generations, Ithink it's not based on how much
money you make.
I know kids of very affluentparents who feel guilty about
born with a silver spoon intheir mouth.
And then there are those whodon't come from such affluent
families who do feel entitled,particularly those who are
(21:25):
worried about being replaced.
The fact of the matter is thatthere are many people in this
country that are worried aboutthe future.
For example, we're workingclass people who are worried
about artificial intelligenceand jobs being lost, advances in
artificial intelligence androbotics and that means job
(21:45):
losses or those who, forwhatever reason, believe that
this was a white Christiancountry that is no longer ruling
the roost and that the minorityis the majority, and they're
having a hard time acceptingthat.
You know, you might call itracism or you know, and for some
(22:06):
it's truly racist.
There are there's clear andpresent danger among those who
are angry, hateful, fearful ofthe change and who will take up
arms if necessary to preventthis.
And then there are those whoare not that way but who just
have a hard time understandingwhere they're going to fit in a
(22:29):
new world and national order.
There's a real range ofattitudes that I've seen, from
the extremists to the moderates,to those who can accept the
fact that the world is changing.
Society is changing and we needto learn to deal with it and
learn to understand it, helpcraft the future and be
(22:52):
empowered.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
So how can my generation of parents of adult
children support this nextgeneration and help our kids
through these difficult timesthat they're having or feeling?
I think you're right.
There's this cross ofentitlement and this cross of.
I'm in this horribleenvironment of climate change,
racism, shooting, but I reallyneed to go to Bora Bora.
(23:14):
What's our role?
Have we just launched them andwe're quiet?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I think we have a very important role.
Let's re-look at development.
The notion that when you're 18,you're an adult and you're
launched and you're on your ownis nonsense.
It turns out that, looking atneurobiology, the way the brain
is organized is that theso-called lower or more
(23:39):
reptilian centers dealing withpleasure and pain and excitement
and impulse are not connectedto the so-called higher centers
that deal with logic andconsequences and rationality.
And those pathways connect andare what we call myelinated.
That means they're coded andthey become more established and
(24:04):
secure Between 14,.
The brain is not fullydeveloped until 26.
So between 14 and 26 is when wekind of connect impulsive,
pleasure-driven behavior oravoidance of pain with
rationality, with looking at thepros and cons and the nuances
(24:24):
and the textures of life andable to kind of see the
consequences of our actions.
So 18 is just the first pieceof that and we say that
adolescence ends at 18.
No, neurobiologicallyadolescence doesn't end until 26
.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
So maybe they shouldn't be going to college
till 26.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Well, first of all, I think we're rushing our kids
and overscheduling them.
That's another whole issue.
I think taking gap years andslowing things down is really
important.
I think taking gap years andslowing things down is really
important, and I think thatstarting kids out too young is a
mistake.
Now there are some 18-year-oldsthat are ready.
There are those that need sometime off and need to work for a
(25:10):
year or two.
My oldest daughter took a gapyear and worked in a bookstore.
It was the best thing.
I mean, she told us I'm notready to go to college and you
know, as a law therapist, sheworked in a bookstore.
She thought about her, what shewanted to do, about being an
artist, and it was the bestthing in the world for her.
(25:32):
The best thing in the world forher.
But one of the consequences ofmaking 18, quote adulthood is
that you can buy a firearm inmany states at 18.
Many colleges don't allowparents to be involved in the
health care or the mental healthcare of their kids.
They're not privy to theirgrades.
(25:52):
They're excluded frominformation and being involved
with their kids.
They're not privy to theirgrades.
They're excluded frominformation and being involved
with their kids.
I think that's a huge mistake.
I think that parentalinvolvement with young adults in
college is super important.
Now I have said that when I wasin college no, don't trust
anybody over 30.
(26:13):
So that's, that was our mantra.
I guess I've seasoned with age,but I realized that 18 to 26
year olds need some form ofadult mentorship, supervision
and and open, transparentconversations.
And it can be parents, but itmight be a friend of a parent or
an older sibling or a mentor ora teacher or a spiritual leader
(26:37):
.
They need guidance and theyneed someone that they can trust
and go to for that kind ofguidance.
And hopefully it could be theparent, but it doesn't have to
be.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
And after 26, do we slowly pull ourselves out of the
situation?
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Well, it depends on how the brain is developed.
Okay, okay, even at 26,.
I mean, if you happen tounfortunately have a wiring
problem, the brain is reallycomplicated.
I mean there are 100 billionneurons each with 10,000
connections.
That's like the mostcomplicated thing in our galaxy
(27:18):
and it's changing all the time.
Now, sometimes the wiring goeswrong.
So you have attention deficitdisorder or you have some
executive functioning problems.
That means organizationalproblems or slow processing
speed.
Or you have some visual spatialproblems or dyslexia.
Or you have some psychiatricissues problems or dyslexia, or
you have some psychiatric issuessuch as anxiety, depression,
(27:40):
shyness, temperamental problems.
You know you're slow to warm up, you're socially anxious, you
know there are a lot of mentalhealth conditions.
What's interesting about themental health wiring and I do
call it wiring because there isa physical component, but
there's also a psychological andan environmental component.
You can't separate the three,but one in four individuals of
(28:04):
all ages will have a psychiatricdisorder at any given point in
time.
That's about 25 and one in twoor 50 over the course of a
lifetime.
Now, 75% begin before age 26,.
50% begin before age 14.
And that's why the earlier weknow what to look for, when to
(28:29):
worry, what to do.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
WWW.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
That's the mantra of the Clay Center the more we know
and the young people know, themore we're able to notice
changes in behavior or thingsthat are signs that are early,
we can enlist.
We can have preventativemeasures, and many psychiatric
(28:54):
problems can be prevented.
Those that can't.
Early intervention is the nameof the game.
We all have to know what tolook for and what to talk about,
and it has a lot to do withwhat your adult child is like.
I mean, there's some adultchildren that are riddled with
anxiety, that have significantproblems, with mood disorders or
(29:16):
learning problems or substanceuse disorders.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Is it more today than ever before?
There are definitely realmental health issues, okay, and
I think that everything you'resaying makes perfect sense easy
to understand, hard to implement, meaning they can be so subtle.
It's so hard for a parent,especially when the kid starts
moving away to college and thatsort of thing, to really be in
touch with how this child isdeveloping and what they might
(29:43):
need.
Then sometimes it becomes anexcuse for the kid.
I have anxiety, I have ADHD, Ican't get along with people, I'm
shy.
How do you help them but nothurt them?
By enabling them.
It's a dance you have to do.
That's very sensitive.
I'm not saying they don't havethese issues, but how do we help
them without constantly babyingthem or enabling them?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
I think it's a good point that you're making.
I would say the same thing istrue if your child, adult child,
has asthma, diabetes, migraines, ulcerative colitis, autoimmune
illness, I mean, you know, doyou let them fly?
Do you let them learn how tocare for themselves and seek
help when they need it and knowsomething about their illnesses,
of course.
And so why not about mentalillness?
(30:27):
I mean, there's no difference,in my view, between a
psychiatric disorder and anautoimmune illness.
I mean they both involveemotions, thoughts, behavior,
changes in lifestyle, medicalcare, knowledge and being aware
of one's conditions and knowingwhat to look for and what to do.
(30:48):
So the best we can do asparents and as young people
themselves, is all learn moreabout these issues and these
problems.
And I think, as far as thesafety net issue goes, part of
the issues about growing up islearning how to be
self-sufficient, learning how tobe on your own and changing the
(31:10):
relationship with your parentsfrom one of being dependent on
them to being kind of more likea peer and, of course, your kids
, if you develop goodcommunication and trust and you
apologize for your mistakes.
We learn the most from ourfailures.
We succeed by our failures.
It's very hard for parents tolet their kid fall, but
(31:32):
sometimes we got to let them fly.
And if they fall and they screwup, you know, my favorite
psychiatrist, donald Winnicott,said we succeed by our failures.
It's true and it's really true.
I mean, we don't succeed bysuccess after success after
success.
We learn the most, whetheryou're a parent, teacher,
(31:53):
therapist, physician, businessexecutive, except from your
failures and hopefully, if youanalyze them correctly and you
realize what you've done and youmake amends and you apologize
and you do whatever you have todo to kind of self-correct,
you'll be a stronger person andyou'll do better person and
(32:15):
you'll you'll do better.
So I don't think we shouldcoddle them.
Some of them need to be heldmore than others.
I mean, if you have a youngadult that's autistic or on the
autistic spectrum, that's awhole different thing, right.
They're going to need.
They're going to need caretaking Right, and if they have a
severe mood disorder they mayneed some caretaking from time
to time.
Absolutely.
But in between they will loveyou and appreciate you and your
(32:36):
care by letting them kind oflearn how to take care of
themselves and learn how to relyon peers and on other folks,
their own doctors and have theirown lives as well.
It's just a balancing act.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
I agree.
I think one important thing youreally said was how we learn
through our failures but alsobeing open and apologizing.
You can only learn through yourfailures.
I think when you talk aboutthem and you express them and
apologize for them on both sidesand I love your tone and the
way you're speaking because it'svery even I get more emotional
and sometimes that's not goodwhen you're talking about these
kinds of things.
So your tone is really great.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
My tone isn't always as great with my kids.
It's great.
It's great on this podcast.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I get worked up, but you know, to speak about
parental emotions, one importantprinciple.
I think that applies to bothparents and teens and young
adults themselves.
For the parents, it's like whenthe flight attendant says, if
the oxygen drops, put the lifemask on yourself first and then
help the person next to you.
(33:44):
If we don't control our ownanxiety and our own emotional
state, we can't help our kids,whatever age they are, whether
they're very, very young orwhether they're young adults.
So we have to basically controlour own emotions and anxiety
through self-care and well-beingworn out term, but it's it's,
(34:05):
it's valid, I mean and thatmeans diet, exercise, nutrition,
good sleep you know all thethings that folks talk about
meditation.
And the same thing is true forfor young people, that they have
to learn to kind of take careof themselves and their emotions
.
Then they're in the mostpositive position to actually
(34:27):
take advice, take it in, trysomething different.
We all need to kind of put onour life masks together, as it
were, and we do the best when wecontain our emotions.
Now that doesn't mean that weshouldn't be emotional with each
other.
I mean, at times emotions aresuper important, whether it's
(34:48):
joy or whether it's, you knowbeing super sad or anxious.
We need to be honest about itand acknowledge it.
It's really hard for me to helpyou now because I'm so anxious
about your situation I canhardly control myself.
Maybe we should take a breakfor a little bit, for an hour or
(35:08):
so, and then talk again.
Tools like that are reallyimportant and that requires
self-awareness.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
It's the parent.
If they work on themselves, ittranslates to a better
relationship with the kid.
So that was really good, thankyou.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
The point of this is that I think we're all in this
together that's another mantra,I mean, and we're all developing
.
I mean development doesn't stopat a certain age.
Parents, even when they're,when the young adult children
are launched, are stillhopefully in the process of
(35:48):
development.
They don't just, you don't justfreeze at age 50 or 65 or 70.
You still have development togo through and you can still
change.
So the prospects for change andthis is where there's great
hope is that our brains, ouremotions, our thoughts, our
(36:10):
feelings, our actions are allable to be changed, no matter
what chronological age you are,from infancy through old age.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Okay, so we've sort of gone on from our initial
listener question.
But when I wrote to you youwrote back to me and you said
I've got a lot to say on thetopic of building healthy
relationships with adultchildren.
I know you've said a lot now,but anything in addition other
of your best guidance forparents to get on the right path
with the development and therelationship?
How has it changed for you?
(36:40):
You've had young adult children, your kids are married, you
have grandkids, you have in-lawsplus you've probably treated
people like that.
Any pieces of advice you wouldgive our listeners on getting on
the right path, dealing withall those mixed relationships
and that sort of thing?
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Some of this will be repetitive.
I'm afraid but I think there'ssome basic things that we should
be doing.
I would say have frequentconversations and start young.
I mean when I say young, I meanpreschool.
So you know, young adulthood isjust one phase in development.
But the more conversations wehave, the more we ask open-ended
(37:18):
questions about how our kidsare feeling, thinking and what's
on their mind, what theirconcerns are, validate their
feelings In some ways.
Even if you disagree, everyoneis right in their perceptions
and you need to tolerate andunderstand what they're thinking
(37:40):
about, what they're goingthrough.
I think being transparent aboutyour own wishes and aspirations
and asking about theirs is superimportant.
Having conversations about theworld and what's going on in the
world is affecting all of us,whether it's climate change or
(38:00):
whether it's the politicalunrest that's happening, because
we can't escape it.
Another one is where are yougetting your information about
self-help or about helpingothers or about the state of the
world?
Because, if it's from socialmedia, be careful, because
digital media is notoriouslyfilled with misinformation and
(38:23):
disinformation.
So ask each other where did youhear that?
How did you learn that?
Where did you get thatinformation?
I mean, if we're going to bemaking rational decisions about
our finances, about our life,about our parenting skills,
about our parenting styles,about how to raise children,
what our young adults are havingkids, what they're learning
about raising to raise children,what our young adults are
(38:44):
having kids, what they'relearning about raising their own
children.
A lot of it's from informationthey're getting on social media
or online.
Is it useful, is it good, is ittrue, is it valid, is it
helpful or is it misguided?
So we need to know somethingabout that.
And I think the other thing iswell, it sounds kind of
(39:08):
simplistic, but doing thingstogether.
During the COVID lockdown andwe were all in isolation, one of
the things my family first didwas we made a quarantine
playlist on Spotify andeverybody contributed songs, but
making a contribution.
Another example is my house.
You can see this room is fullof stuff and the whole house is
(39:32):
this way, and my adult childrencome into this house and they
say there's no place for my kidsto play.
You know you've got too muchstuff, you've got to purge.
Well, it's hard to let go ofthings that are meaningful and
some people could do it withease.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I do it with ease.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Well, you're lucky and you're, and you're, I can't,
I don't.
One of my kids is helping uskind of let go of things and
just give them away to the needyand not have as much junk,
because some of it is junk.
So I mean that's really veryhelpful.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Let me ask you this Is it hard being a psychiatrist
and having grandchildren?
Do you bite your tongue all thetime when you watch your
children parent their children?
A lot of my friends have saidas grandparents.
Things have changed a lot.
The advice they get from theirpediatricians is a lot different
than the advice we got from ourpediatricians.
Do you bite your tongue a lotor do you just or do you give
your opinion?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Well, first of all, I don't use my shrink hat with my
family, friends, my family andmy friends.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
How can you not do that?
Isn't it just in you?
Speaker 1 (40:46):
No, the bottom line is is that when you're a parent,
it doesn't matter how you'retrained.
So I'll give you a greatexample.
When my second daughter who'snow she's going to be, she's 39
(41:09):
when she was, uh, when she heardthat we were having twins,
first thing she did was she, shekind of like, looked at me and
my wife and said no, and shekind of held her hands and put
them together and she said notone baby, two, one is pink and
one is blue.
Well, she was right.
And my sister said take her tothe stock market page and have
her going to.
So but?
(41:30):
But?
But then she played this gamewith these dolls on the floor
kill the bad babies and shewould smash them with you know a
wiffle ball bat, and you knowmy first impulse and what I
really did was I said, like youknow a wiffle ball bat, and you
know my first impulse, and whatI really did was I said, like
you know, caitlin, the hell areyou doing?
Now, that's not what a shrinkwould do.
(41:52):
Oh, I see what you mean Would Ido that with a patient?
Of course I wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I would say what's bothering you, yeah?
Speaker 1 (41:58):
How are you feeling about these babies, right, when
you, when you, when you're aparent?
You don't at least I don'tanalyze anybody, including
myself, lord knows.
You're not a therapist Again.
Think about it this way we allhave different roles.
The role that you play at workor in your place of worship, or
(42:24):
in your community, or with yourkids, or even with your aging
parents, is going to bedifferent, and it doesn't really
matter how you've been trainedprofessionally.
You know you can separate that.
I think Now, if they ask me forprofessional advice, if one of
my grandchildren gets a rash,even though I'm not a
(42:46):
dermatologist, or if they spraintheir ankle or they, but you
went through medical school.
I do, I can weigh in about thatand I can ask colleagues.
And if they ask me somethingthat's psychiatrically oriented,
that's mental health orientedOne of their friends calls me of
course I'll use my psychiatricknowledge and training to kind
(43:11):
of give that kind of advice, butit's only when they ask is that
way?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Okay, our time is getting a little limited.
There's two more questions Ireally want to get in that.
I promised a couple listeners,so I want to first talk about do
you have suggestions forparents who feel shut out by
their adult children?
I know these Facebook groupsand social media but you hear it
over and over again their kidsdon't call them, they aren't
around.
You said earlier about textingevery day and depending on the
(43:40):
kids, and I have friends who gettexts and everything from their
kids every day.
And then if you go on TikTok,there's this new TikTok thing
where people go up to people andsay how often do you text your
mother, how often do you talk toyour mother?
And all these kids say, oh,every day, twice a week.
I call once a week and I'malways reading it, thinking gosh
, do I not have a goodrelationship with my kids
Because I don't hear from themthat often?
(44:01):
And so I just think how do youdeal if you feel like you're
being shut out?
When are you being shut out,and any advice in those kinds of
situations?
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Sure.
First of all, I think if you'refeeling shut out, or if you're
actually shut out, the mostimportant thing to do, I think,
is to really think about whatyou may have done to alienate
them, to isolate them, to turnthem away from you.
Are you being judgmental, areyou critical, are you arrogant
(44:33):
and not being aware of it?
And so I would spend some timethinking, talking with your if
you have a partner or a parentor someone that knows the kids
and get some constructivecriticism, and then I think you
need to have a conversation withthem and say you know, don't
(44:54):
worry about hurting my feelings,you know, I feel that I'm being
shut out.
I got to take responsibility.
The thing not to say is why areyou shutting me out?
I mean, that's a conversationcloser.
It's presuming that they'reshutting you out and it's also
presuming that it's their fault.
Rather, I would say it feels tome like I'm being shut out, not
(45:21):
included, and I would love toknow what I'm doing wrong, what
I'm doing that turns you off,and what I need to do to change.
The kids respect that now.
They may not believe you, butyou've got to demonstrate in.
(45:41):
You know, you've got to walkand shoot gun.
But at the same time you've gotto demonstrate in terms of your
actions and your behavior whatyou're trying to do to change.
And if it's a relationshipthat's had its problems over
time, you know you could say,look, if there have been times
throughout your growing up whenI've really messed up and this
(46:03):
is the price that I'm paying, Ican always get into therapy, I
can talk to somebody, I can havefamily therapy.
You know we can do a bunch ofthings.
And then it really does dependon the kid and how angry they
are or upset they are, or howmuch they trust you to make that
(46:24):
change.
And then you have to rememberthat it's a marathon, it's not a
sprint.
I mean, all behavioral changetakes time and say this is not,
I know this is not going tochange overnight, but can we
work on this together?
And if they say well?
And if they say well, not yet,not till I see you working on
(46:45):
yourself, and I'll say, well,how can I show you if you shut
me out?
You know I mean so, you know,give me a little opening to show
you that I've changed.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
And then I'm working on changing.
I don't think anyone can justchange.
You have to work on changingright, that's right.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So I think that would be the most important thing is
to let is to let them know thatthis is something that that you
care about and that if, ifyou've screwed up again, the
power of apology is awesome andalso, if there's a conflict that
we have, uh, over anything, weneed to resolve this.
I mean there's this.
I mean there's a real positivevalue of conflict.
I mean when conflict betweenparents and kids, whatever age,
(47:33):
are resolved, the relationshipbecomes stronger.
You know, I wrote a blog forthe Clayton Center on the
positive value of conflict.
I mean people think of aconflict as really being
something negative that we needto avoid, and my feeling is is
that conflict occurs in allparts of life, all throughout
life, and it's unavoidable.
(47:53):
The real important question ishow do we resolve it?
How do we?
How do we successfully resolveconflict and then achieve a
greater sense of closeness?
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Okay, I'm going to find that blog and I'll post it
too in my episode notes.
I'm going to ask one morequestion.
Someone asked me this recentlyand I said I would ask you.
I want to talk about religionand culture.
Many listeners tell me that andthis has been a trend, you read
about it their kids are turningaway from their religion or went
a different route, marriedsomeone outside of their
religion, and sometimes it'sharder of the loss of tradition
(48:30):
and culture than it is thereligion.
For example, I'm a GreekAmerican.
I married a non-Greek, soslowly it's watered down.
It was hard for my parents.
When I married a non-Greek, Itried my best to keep my Greek
heritage alive.
Married and non-Greek, I triedmy best to keep my Greek
heritage alive.
But now, as I watch my childrenmove away from it, I watch the
culture disappear more and more,and many Jewish friends are
(48:51):
telling me this too.
So it's more how we helpourselves.
I mean we're not going tochange our children, we're not
going to knock them over thehead and say you better be
playing bouzouki music and servein tzatziki tomorrow night, but
how do we come to terms with itin ourselves?
Speaker 1 (49:07):
With great difficulty .
Yeah, so it's not an easy thingto see that your kids, your
adult children, for example areand many families now are
blended in terms of cultural andreligious backgrounds.
We have to give them the spaceto kind of figure out what
(49:27):
they're choosing to believe inand what rituals and cultural
norms they want to adopt.
What I found, though, is that,whereas they may, at one point
before they have children, kindof reject the heritage within
which they were raised, once youhave children, you want to give
(49:52):
them something.
You want to give them somestructure and some values and
norms and morals and rituals andceremonies to rely on rituals
and ceremonies to rely on.
You know, it's the rare casewhere they don't want their kids
to have some kind of a culturalor spiritual identity.
(50:12):
Now, it may not be the same asyours, but they will eventually,
I think, find one.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
And then what you have to do as a parent is accept
it.
Now you may, and if you, and ifyou have a blended marriage,
your kids are blended.
There's no harm in having twocultural events, Plenty of
(50:43):
embrace, multiple cultures andgroups.
Others will choose to beatheists.
Even in atheism there are normsand values and ceremonies and
rituals that are important fortheir family, that are important
for their family, and they maynot be spiritual and they may
(51:05):
not be the same cultural normsthat you've grown up with, but
they'll find something.
I think we've got to let themfind their way.
You know it used to be that youare X and you shall remain X.
That's not the norm now.
The norm now among the Gen Xsand the Gen Zs and the
millennials is what do I want toidentify with and how do I want
(51:29):
to raise my kids?
What kind of identity do I wantmy kids to have?
And that includes both a racial, ethnic, cultural and spiritual
, all of those aspects ofidentity, including gender
identity.
If we're going to really thinkabout it, that's what they want
(51:50):
their kids to embrace.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
Okay, we're hitting the end now.
I always ask my guests to leavetwo final thoughts that they'd
like our listeners to take away.
It absolutely can be repetitive, but two things that we've
talked about or we haven'ttalked about that you really
want our listeners to take away.
It absolutely can be repetitive, but two things that we've
talked about or we haven'ttalked about that you really
want our listeners to take awayfrom this conversation.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
I'd say be open, honest and have frequent
conversations with your adultchildren about your life and
theirs.
And I'd say, regardless of yoursituation, keep the door open
for advice, support and counsel,without imposing it on them.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Terrific.
This was really wonderful.
You know, Ellen has said suchgreat things about you.
I don't know why it took us solong to have you on, but thank
you.
Thank you for giving your timetoday and thank you for joining
us.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Well, I'm happy to come back.
I mean, I can talk aboutanything.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
I mean okay, I'll remember that.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
I do think that your listeners would appreciate
having the availability of theClay Center.
It's been 10 years now andEllen was one of our founders as
well, and we've got over 400blogs, many video and audio
podcasts, and we have a lot onour YouTube channel short videos
(53:10):
, psas, q&as, and so there's alot.
There's a wealth of materialthey might find useful.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Well, I will definitely put the link in my
social media when this comes outand also in the episode notes.
Well, that's a wrap.
Thank you again, gene.
What an episode so much tothink about.
He certainly is a wealth ofknowledge.
Remember to visit the website.
We talked about the Clay Centerfor Young and Healthy Minds.
(53:39):
The website is mghclaycenterorgand, as he said, there's a lot
of podcasts, a lot of blogs, alot of information about mental
health, child rearing, youngadults, grandchildren,
everything you'd ever want toread about.
And, once again, follow us onsocial media.
(54:01):
Support us by visiting ourwebsite at
biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
Go to the support us button andbuy us a virtual cup of coffee
for just five bucks.
We will really appreciate it.
A huge thanks to ConnieGorn-Fisher, our audio engineer,
for brilliantly editing andproducing this episode.
Think about the power ofapology and remember, sometimes
(54:27):
you just have to bite yourtongue.
One important principle.
I think that applies to bothparents and teens and young
adults themselves.
For the parents, it's like whenthe flight attendant says, if
the oxygen drops, put the lifemask on yourself first and then
help the person next to you.
If we don't control our ownanxiety and our own emotional
state, we can't help our kidsage they are, whether they're
(00:23):
very, very young or whetherthey're young adults.
So we have to basically controlour own emotions and anxiety
through self-care and well-beingworn out term, but it's it's,
it's valid, I mean and thatmeans diet, exercise, nutrition,
good sleep you know all thethings that folks talk about
meditation and the same thing istrue for young people that they
(00:46):
have to learn to kind of takecare of themselves and their
emotions.
Then they're in the mostpositive position to actually
take advice, take it in, trysomething different.
We all need to kind of put onour life masks together.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
We kind of put on our life masks together.
Hey everyone, welcome to Biteyour Tongue the podcast.
Join me, your host, deniseGorin, as we explore the ins and
outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
(01:25):
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when to
bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of Bite your
Tongue the podcast.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of Bite your
(01:48):
Tongue the podcast.
We are so glad you're with us.
Today we're answering alistener's question, but stay
tuned because we're going toanswer lots of other questions
too, because our guest has beenworking with kids and younger
adults for over 40 years.
Today we're speaking to Dr GeneBoreson.
He's Executive Director of theClay Center for Young and
(02:08):
Healthy Minds at MassachusettsGeneral Hospital in Boston.
He's also a full professor ofpsychiatry at Harvard Medical
School.
One of our listeners wrote along email asking about issues
involving a boomerang kid.
Not your typical boomerang kid,but an adult child who leaves
the nest, sets out on his or herown, is completely financially
(02:32):
responsible, finished college,maybe even married, and then
suddenly they're back in yourhome, sometimes even depending
on you financially.
Gene wrote an article aboutthis a few years ago and we
thought we'd get his perspective, but he reminded us that the
article was written before COVID, so lots has changed and he's
(02:52):
got a lot to share.
So we hope to talk to Gene todayabout that, but also pick his
brain about many other things.
He tells me he's got a lot tosay about building healthy
relationships with adultchildren and their children.
He's a father of four with ninegrandchildren.
Almost all of them moved homeafter college or between college
(03:14):
or after grad school, and allof them have kids, making family
relationships complex butincredibly rich and rewarding.
So let's get started.
So welcome, gene.
We're so happy you're joiningus.
For listeners I might mentionthat Gene worked with Ellen for
many years at both the ClayCenter and at Harvard.
(03:36):
So welcome again, gene.
Did I miss anything in theintroduction?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, one thing that's new.
Our chair, maurizio Fava, atMass General established a
division of professional andpublic mental health education,
and what that combines is theMGH Psychiatry Academy, which is
one of the largest CME programs, that's, continuing medical
education programs in thecountry, if not the world, and
(04:02):
with the Clay Center.
So we do both professionaleducation for people who are in
health professions of allspecialties and connect that
with public mental healtheducation for parents,
caregivers, all who work withyouth, and for youth themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
There's certainly been a demand for mental health
educational sources like this.
Is this the first in thecountry, and what do you think
this will offer to just thegeneral public?
Or why did they establish this.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I guess I should say Well, a couple of things I
should mention.
I'm director of education andDavid Rubin, who runs the psych
academy, is executive director.
So you know, one of myresidents from the past is now
my boss.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Which is great because you know the son is
father to the man, which isprobably not politically correct
.
I don't know how I would say itpolitically correctly, but at
any rate it is unique.
Many departments and programsaround the country have
professional education and, morerarely, public mental health
education, but combining themcovers the waterfront, and the
(05:13):
whole point is that we want tocreate a community of
professionals and everyday folksparents, teachers and young
people themselves to be able tospeak the same language, to talk
together, to have conversationsthat are more sophisticated,
more nuanced.
It saves time, it's efficientand better questions are asked
(05:36):
and better conversations occur.
So you know, as the parents andcaregivers know what to look,
the three W's, as we say at theClay Center, know what to look
for, when to worry, what to doand get some answers, presumably
from the Clay Center's websiteor YouTube channel.
And the professionals areonline and even those who are
not mental health professionals,like primary care pediatricians
(05:59):
and primary care nursepractitioners and others, know
more about mental health.
Then we're all better informedwith a trusted resource and we
all can actually talk with eachother in a more kind of
thoughtful and expedient way.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
That's great.
Well, congratulations, becauseI think there's a need for this.
There aren't enoughquote-unquote mental health
professionals in the world, sohaving others that also
understand this, from nursepractitioners to internal
medicine doctors, to all of this, that have a more knowledgeable
view, is going to help everyone.
So I will definitely link theClay Center in the podcast notes
(06:36):
so everyone knows more aboutthis.
So lots of help on this sitetoo, for both young people and
young adults, and I loved yourthree W's.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
So let's, get started here.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
We're going to start with the listener question,
which I shared with you.
She wrote a very long emailthat basically said parenting
was a strength of hers.
She raised her kids to beadults.
They went to college, they gotjobs and all of a sudden, at 29,
her son was back home, and shedidn't give the circumstances of
the situation, she just saidhe's home, he's living here.
(07:12):
I don't know what to do.
Do I set up parameters?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
What do parents do in these kinds of situations.
Before we talk about what theydo, I think you should kind of
think about what are theparental concerns, what are the
young person's concerns, andthen how can they work together?
Some of the parent concerns are, and it depends whether there
are any other kids home, butlet's just say that there are no
other kids home.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I think she was definitely an empty nester.
She thought she was done.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Everyone thinks they're done when they go off to
college, but really the hardstuff just begins.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
The rule of thumb is that when you're a parent,
you're never done, ever, ever.
You know as a parent and thenas a grandparent, that happens.
So I think that the parentalconcerns are how is this going
to affect my expenses?
How is this going to affect meand anyone else who's living at
home, whether it's my partner ora parent or other relatives?
(08:03):
How is it going to affect thesituation that we have?
Most parents, when their adultkids come home, worry about
their future.
What does this mean?
Are they going to get stuckhere?
What are they going to do next?
How do I know and finally, Ithink you know finances?
I mean very few people in thiscountry have enough money in
(08:24):
retirement savings to live along life.
I mean with life expectancy.
If you make it to 85, as oneprimary care physician said to
me at MGH, you're likely to makeit to 100.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Oh, dear gosh, Okay.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Statistically it's true, but you know everybody's
situation is different.
But from 65, I mean that's anarbitrary number.
I mean many people are workinginto their 70s and some people
retire if they're fortunateenough in their 50s and live on
Social Security and meagersavings.
But most people in this countrydon't have enough money to live
(09:06):
the way they lived when theywere working.
They're trying to squirrel awaymoney and worry about the
economy, and finances get to bereally important.
So that's the parent concerns.
Then you have the young adultconcerns, and that is hopefully.
They're thinking about thingslike what does this mean for my
career?
What am I going to do next If Idon't have any money?
(09:28):
What about my debt?
I mean, do they have studentloans that they're responsible
for?
Do they have a car that theyhave to pay loans on?
And it may be that the parentsused to be helping them out.
But once they're out of collegeand they're supposedly launched
, most parents assume thatthey're going to try to find a
way to kind of cover their ownexpenses.
(09:49):
How do they maintain their senseof independence and autonomy?
I mean, you know when you leavehome whether you're going to
college, as 60% of young adultsdo 18-year-olds-ish do and 40%
don't.
You have your own space.
I mean, you're doing whatyou're supposed to be doing at
that age.
You're supposed to be seekingautonomy, separation,
(10:09):
independence, learning tonavigate the world on your own,
not turning to your parents forevery answer to every question,
and to help support yourself.
Furthermore, to have your ownspace so that you can have some
privacy and start building yourown world.
And then, when you go back home,for many it's kind of like
(10:30):
going to high school again, forboth the kids and for the
parents.
So those are the considerations.
Given those considerations, thequestion is what do we do?
And I think, in general, theanswer is and it's complicated,
it depends on each situation.
First of all, I would havefrequent conversations.
I mean, we need to talk bothabout our situations, our
(10:53):
worries, our concerns and aboutfinances, since that's a really
big concern for many, many emptynesters.
Having another member of thehousehold is an added expense.
I think it's really useful tobe transparent about expenses,
although few people in familiestalk about money.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Someone told me there's a.
What is it?
A 40-70 rule?
Have you heard of it?
70-40 rule or something Beforeyou're 70 or when they're 40,
you tell them everything aboutyour expenses because it should
be transparent to your adultchildren.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
In my experience, it doesn't happen.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
But I think it's important.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It's very important.
I wrote a paper with a friendof mine, mike Jelinek, who was
then chief of child psychiatryat Mass General.
It was called Money and what.
The bottom line of what we saidwas that patients will come in
and they will talk about drugs,sex, rock and roll affairs, all
kinds of sketchy details oftheir private life.
(11:53):
But very few patients, as wellas very few parents, tell their
kids what they're making.
If you ask a young adult whatdoes your parent make a year,
they won't know.
They will not know Now theyshould for various reasons.
(12:14):
But why don't we talk aboutwhat we make?
Why is money in such adifferent category?
I mean, many young people knowthat their parents have had
affairs or have had maritalconflict or have had substance
use problems, that have hadissues with the law, that have
had unemployment.
They had marital conflict orhave had substance use problems,
that have had issues with thelaw, that have had unemployment.
They've been fired.
They know a fair amount ofdetails about the personal,
social, interpersonal aspects oftheir parents' lives.
(12:37):
But I'll bet you, if we asked100 young people what their
parents make, a small fractionwould know and how much is put
away for them.
Some young people don't evenknow that there's a trust fund
for them or that there'sinheritance money put away.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
But sometimes that's good to a certain age.
You don't want your kid tothink, oh, they've got millions
coming to them, so they don'tlaunch themselves.
So there's sort of a balancehere.
We interviewed a woman.
You should get this book byCameron Huddleston Mom and Dad
we Need to Talk, and itbasically lists exactly what you
need to be talking about,because I think everything
(13:11):
you're saying is true and I'mnot 100% sure the kid has to
know everything, but has to havea good sense.
You think about a kid comingback, moving in and parents are
off to Hawaii for a vacation.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
So the kid looks at that.
Oh, they got lots of money, youknow, whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
That doesn't mean they have a lot of money.
It means they saved enough sothey could take this vacation,
which they've wanted to do for100 years.
But the kid who's moved backhome might think oh geez, they
shop at Whole Foods or they wentto Hawaii.
They've got a lot more money soI can stay here for a while.
So that's why I think it needsto be clear.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
So what you're saying , I think, is very important in
that it's not just about money.
It's about sharing what yourgoals, objectives, wishes,
aspirations, plans are for thefuture.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
That's what I think.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
As we move into adult life together, that is, our
young adult children and us.
At home, we need to be talkingabout what we hope to do.
Do we want to sell the houseand downsize?
Do we want to take trips?
Do we want to travel and seethe world?
(14:19):
Do we want to live in an RV andreally save money?
And also, who's going to takecare of the elderly?
If there are the parents'parents still alive or elderly
relatives, what's expected?
What am I planning to do?
And for the kids and for theadults to both know what their
(14:39):
goals and aspirations are, thenthey can brainstorm together
about their plans and they cangive each other advice and they
can talk with each othercandidly.
Why don't you try this?
They can brainstorm together,they can have open conversations
, but if we're not transparent,you can't have these
conversations.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
The adult child has to be open to the conversations.
I would imagine any adult childthat's coming home after
launching and living financiallyindependent is a little
embarrassed and mad.
And when you're embarrassed andmad or embarrassed, I should
say, and unhappy with yourselfit comes out in anger a lot of
times with any age person, but Ithink even more so when it's
(15:21):
your adult child.
So don't bug me, I don't knowwhat I want to do.
I really screwed up.
I don't know I need to be hereand you don't see movement.
But you're empathetic too,because you know things can go
wrong.
And should our home always be asafe space for them to come to
or not?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
It should always be a safe space.
But let me put it two ways.
First of all, even if theydon't come home, they may not
have left home.
In other words, there are kidswho are dependent, and so
dependent on their parents thatthey're calling and texting
every single day and multipletimes a day and they really have
never left home.
(16:01):
They've never progressed tokind of self-sufficiency,
autonomy, independence, andthey're too dependent upon their
parents.
Then they're the ones that comehome, who've achieved some sense
of independence, and they areangry and irritable and
embarrassed and ashamed, oftennot always or they come home and
(16:21):
it's not that they're ashamed,they come home and it's not that
they're ashamed, but they feellike they're imposing.
And then there's the questionof they're interrupting their
parents' lives and it's done outof necessity.
Then the question is well, okay, let's come up with a plan,
let's come up with some waysthat you can kind of feel less
(16:42):
upset and worried and concerned.
What can you do to contributeto the home?
What can we do to helpcontribute to you, to help get
you launched, and you can have,we can have an open conversation
about that.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
I think that's important.
Do you set a timeline for it?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Absolutely Now.
Will that timeline always work?
Well, you know, it's like whatYogi Berra said predictions are
always difficult, especiallyabout the future.
So you know who knows?
I mean, nobody expected COVIDto have a two and a half year
lockdown and look at what thatdid.
I mean that brought a lot ofpeople home in isolation.
(17:20):
Look at what the economicdownturn did and, with climate
change, no-transcript population.
(17:53):
But we'll get to that Before weget to loneliness.
They are among the most sociallyconscious groups that I've seen
since the 60s.
Now, when I was in college, wewere dealing with the war in
Vietnam, we were dealing withthe civil rights movement, we
were dealing with women'sliberation, and it was a very
(18:15):
exciting and important time anda big time of change.
And we were extraordinarilyattentive to what's going on
around us in the country.
And young people the Gen Zs andthe millennials, by the same
token are as well.
They're concerned about thingslike climate change, about
sexual assault, about healthcare, about disparities, not
(18:39):
just in health care but healthcare, but disparities that are
racial, cultural, ethnic, gender, lgbtqia+.
They are very concerned aboutmass shootings and gun control.
They are new activists.
They were thwarted to someextent during COVID, but their
level of social and globalconsciousness is quite
(19:01):
extraordinary and, I think,extremely positive.
On the other hand at the risk ofalienating some of the
listeners out there, there's asense of entitlement.
Out there, there's a sense ofentitlement.
What about me?
We hear about work-life balance.
What that really means is Idon't want to work all the time,
I want to have my comfort zone,I want to have some time to
(19:34):
kick back and relax, and I feelentitled to that because it
comes in part with, I think, ageneral sense of entitlement
that many people feel, both kidsand adults.
I think it's pretty pervasive.
So it's not as though one canbe socially and globally
conscious and aware and care butat the same time try to figure
out how do I balance that withmy own sense of entitlement to
(19:56):
relax, to be with my family, tohave some downtime, to not work,
to take it easy, to have sometime off.
So it's that dialectic thatwe're talking about.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
So I wonder where this comes from.
I have a couple questions and Iwant to ask about when you were
talking about the texting.
But I want to ask about thiswhen does this come from?
And is it across allsocioeconomic levels, you know,
is it more college educated thatyou think are like this?
Is it more affluent familiesthat are like this, kids that
are like this?
And number two, did ourgeneration, the baby boom
(20:32):
generation we were not associally conscious.
I think we worked very hardbecause we were really we're
probably the first generation, Ithink, to have done better than
our parents or something likethat, whereas this next
generation is having a hard timedoing as well as their parents.
How did our role play intowhat's happening right now with
the millennials and Gen Xs andthat sort of thing?
(20:53):
Was it somewhat the way we wereraised?
Did we give them too much?
Did we contribute to this inany way as parents?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
In my experience and all the readings I've read about
these different generations, Ithink it's not based on how much
money you make.
I know kids of very affluentparents who feel guilty about
born with a silver spoon intheir mouth.
And then there are those whodon't come from such affluent
families who do feel entitled,particularly those who are
(21:25):
worried about being replaced.
The fact of the matter is thatthere are many people in this
country that are worried aboutthe future.
For example, we're workingclass people who are worried
about artificial intelligenceand jobs being lost, advances in
artificial intelligence androbotics and that means job
(21:45):
losses or those who, forwhatever reason, believe that
this was a white Christiancountry that is no longer ruling
the roost and that the minorityis the majority, and they're
having a hard time acceptingthat.
You know, you might call itracism or you know, and for some
(22:06):
it's truly racist.
There are there's clear andpresent danger among those who
are angry, hateful, fearful ofthe change and who will take up
arms if necessary to preventthis.
And then there are those whoare not that way but who just
have a hard time understandingwhere they're going to fit in a
(22:29):
new world and national order.
There's a real range ofattitudes that I've seen, from
the extremists to the moderates,to those who can accept the
fact that the world is changing.
Society is changing and we needto learn to deal with it and
learn to understand it, helpcraft the future and be
(22:52):
empowered.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
So how can my generation of parents of adult
children support this nextgeneration and help our kids
through these difficult timesthat they're having or feeling?
I think you're right.
There's this cross ofentitlement and this cross of.
I'm in this horribleenvironment of climate change,
racism, shooting, but I reallyneed to go to Bora Bora.
(23:14):
What's our role?
Have we just launched them andwe're quiet?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I think we have a very important role.
Let's re-look at development.
The notion that when you're 18,you're an adult and you're
launched and you're on your ownis nonsense.
It turns out that, looking atneurobiology, the way the brain
is organized is that theso-called lower or more
(23:39):
reptilian centers dealing withpleasure and pain and excitement
and impulse are not connectedto the so-called higher centers
that deal with logic andconsequences and rationality.
And those pathways connect andare what we call myelinated.
That means they're coded andthey become more established and
(24:04):
secure Between 14,.
The brain is not fullydeveloped until 26.
So between 14 and 26 is when wekind of connect impulsive,
pleasure-driven behavior oravoidance of pain with
rationality, with looking at thepros and cons and the nuances
(24:24):
and the textures of life andable to kind of see the
consequences of our actions.
So 18 is just the first pieceof that and we say that
adolescence ends at 18.
No, neurobiologicallyadolescence doesn't end until 26
.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
So maybe they shouldn't be going to college
till 26.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Well, first of all, I think we're rushing our kids
and overscheduling them.
That's another whole issue.
I think taking gap years andslowing things down is really
important.
I think taking gap years andslowing things down is really
important, and I think thatstarting kids out too young is a
mistake.
Now there are some 18-year-oldsthat are ready.
There are those that need sometime off and need to work for a
(25:10):
year or two.
My oldest daughter took a gapyear and worked in a bookstore.
It was the best thing.
I mean, she told us I'm notready to go to college and you
know, as a law therapist, sheworked in a bookstore.
She thought about her, what shewanted to do, about being an
artist, and it was the bestthing in the world for her.
(25:32):
The best thing in the world forher.
But one of the consequences ofmaking 18, quote adulthood is
that you can buy a firearm inmany states at 18.
Many colleges don't allowparents to be involved in the
health care or the mental healthcare of their kids.
They're not privy to theirgrades.
(25:52):
They're excluded frominformation and being involved
with their kids.
They're not privy to theirgrades.
They're excluded frominformation and being involved
with their kids.
I think that's a huge mistake.
I think that parentalinvolvement with young adults in
college is super important.
Now I have said that when I wasin college no, don't trust
anybody over 30.
(26:13):
So that's, that was our mantra.
I guess I've seasoned with age,but I realized that 18 to 26
year olds need some form ofadult mentorship, supervision
and and open, transparentconversations.
And it can be parents, but itmight be a friend of a parent or
an older sibling or a mentor ora teacher or a spiritual leader
(26:37):
.
They need guidance and theyneed someone that they can trust
and go to for that kind ofguidance.
And hopefully it could be theparent, but it doesn't have to
be.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
And after 26, do we slowly pull ourselves out of the
situation?
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Well, it depends on how the brain is developed.
Okay, okay, even at 26,.
I mean, if you happen tounfortunately have a wiring
problem, the brain is reallycomplicated.
I mean there are 100 billionneurons each with 10,000
connections.
That's like the mostcomplicated thing in our galaxy
(27:18):
and it's changing all the time.
Now, sometimes the wiring goeswrong.
So you have attention deficitdisorder or you have some
executive functioning problems.
That means organizationalproblems or slow processing
speed.
Or you have some visual spatialproblems or dyslexia.
Or you have some psychiatricissues problems or dyslexia, or
you have some psychiatric issuessuch as anxiety, depression,
(27:40):
shyness, temperamental problems.
You know you're slow to warm up, you're socially anxious, you
know there are a lot of mentalhealth conditions.
What's interesting about themental health wiring and I do
call it wiring because there isa physical component, but
there's also a psychological andan environmental component.
You can't separate the three,but one in four individuals of
(28:04):
all ages will have a psychiatricdisorder at any given point in
time.
That's about 25 and one in twoor 50 over the course of a
lifetime.
Now, 75% begin before age 26,.
50% begin before age 14.
And that's why the earlier weknow what to look for, when to
(28:29):
worry, what to do.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
WWW.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
That's the mantra of the Clay Center the more we know
and the young people know, themore we're able to notice
changes in behavior or thingsthat are signs that are early,
we can enlist.
We can have preventativemeasures, and many psychiatric
(28:54):
problems can be prevented.
Those that can't.
Early intervention is the nameof the game.
We all have to know what tolook for and what to talk about,
and it has a lot to do withwhat your adult child is like.
I mean, there's some adultchildren that are riddled with
anxiety, that have significantproblems, with mood disorders or
(29:16):
learning problems or substanceuse disorders.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Is it more today than ever before?
There are definitely realmental health issues, okay, and
I think that everything you'resaying makes perfect sense easy
to understand, hard to implement, meaning they can be so subtle.
It's so hard for a parent,especially when the kid starts
moving away to college and thatsort of thing, to really be in
touch with how this child isdeveloping and what they might
(29:43):
need.
Then sometimes it becomes anexcuse for the kid.
I have anxiety, I have ADHD, Ican't get along with people, I'm
shy.
How do you help them but nothurt them?
By enabling them.
It's a dance you have to do.
That's very sensitive.
I'm not saying they don't havethese issues, but how do we help
them without constantly babyingthem or enabling them?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
I think it's a good point that you're making.
I would say the same thing istrue if your child, adult child,
has asthma, diabetes, migraines, ulcerative colitis, autoimmune
illness, I mean, you know, doyou let them fly?
Do you let them learn how tocare for themselves and seek
help when they need it and knowsomething about their illnesses,
of course.
And so why not about mentalillness?
(30:27):
I mean, there's no difference,in my view, between a
psychiatric disorder and anautoimmune illness.
I mean they both involveemotions, thoughts, behavior,
changes in lifestyle, medicalcare, knowledge and being aware
of one's conditions and knowingwhat to look for and what to do.
(30:48):
So the best we can do asparents and as young people
themselves, is all learn moreabout these issues and these
problems.
And I think, as far as thesafety net issue goes, part of
the issues about growing up islearning how to be
self-sufficient, learning how tobe on your own and changing the
(31:10):
relationship with your parentsfrom one of being dependent on
them to being kind of more likea peer and, of course, your kids
, if you develop goodcommunication and trust and you
apologize for your mistakes.
We learn the most from ourfailures.
We succeed by our failures.
It's very hard for parents tolet their kid fall, but
(31:32):
sometimes we got to let them fly.
And if they fall and they screwup, you know, my favorite
psychiatrist, donald Winnicott,said we succeed by our failures.
It's true and it's really true.
I mean, we don't succeed bysuccess after success after
success.
We learn the most, whetheryou're a parent, teacher,
(31:53):
therapist, physician, businessexecutive, except from your
failures and hopefully, if youanalyze them correctly and you
realize what you've done and youmake amends and you apologize
and you do whatever you have todo to kind of self-correct,
you'll be a stronger person andyou'll do better person and
(32:15):
you'll you'll do better.
So I don't think we shouldcoddle them.
Some of them need to be heldmore than others.
I mean, if you have a youngadult that's autistic or on the
autistic spectrum, that's awhole different thing, right.
They're going to need.
They're going to need caretaking Right, and if they have a
severe mood disorder they mayneed some caretaking from time
to time.
Absolutely.
But in between they will loveyou and appreciate you and your
(32:36):
care by letting them kind oflearn how to take care of
themselves and learn how to relyon peers and on other folks,
their own doctors and have theirown lives as well.
It's just a balancing act.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
I agree.
I think one important thing youreally said was how we learn
through our failures but alsobeing open and apologizing.
You can only learn through yourfailures.
I think when you talk aboutthem and you express them and
apologize for them on both sidesand I love your tone and the
way you're speaking because it'svery even I get more emotional
and sometimes that's not goodwhen you're talking about these
kinds of things.
So your tone is really great.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
My tone isn't always as great with my kids.
It's great.
It's great on this podcast.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I get worked up, but you know, to speak about
parental emotions, one importantprinciple.
I think that applies to bothparents and teens and young
adults themselves.
For the parents, it's like whenthe flight attendant says, if
the oxygen drops, put the lifemask on yourself first and then
help the person next to you.
(33:44):
If we don't control our ownanxiety and our own emotional
state, we can't help our kids,whatever age they are, whether
they're very, very young orwhether they're young adults.
So we have to basically controlour own emotions and anxiety
through self-care and well-beingworn out term, but it's it's,
(34:05):
it's valid, I mean and thatmeans diet, exercise, nutrition,
good sleep you know all thethings that folks talk about
meditation.
And the same thing is true forfor young people, that they have
to learn to kind of take careof themselves and their emotions
.
Then they're in the mostpositive position to actually
(34:27):
take advice, take it in, trysomething different.
We all need to kind of put onour life masks together, as it
were, and we do the best when wecontain our emotions.
Now that doesn't mean that weshouldn't be emotional with each
other.
I mean, at times emotions aresuper important, whether it's
(34:48):
joy or whether it's, you knowbeing super sad or anxious.
We need to be honest about itand acknowledge it.
It's really hard for me to helpyou now because I'm so anxious
about your situation I canhardly control myself.
Maybe we should take a breakfor a little bit, for an hour or
(35:08):
so, and then talk again.
Tools like that are reallyimportant and that requires
self-awareness.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
It's the parent.
If they work on themselves, ittranslates to a better
relationship with the kid.
So that was really good, thankyou.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
The point of this is that I think we're all in this
together that's another mantra,I mean, and we're all developing
.
I mean development doesn't stopat a certain age.
Parents, even when they're,when the young adult children
are launched, are stillhopefully in the process of
(35:48):
development.
They don't just, you don't justfreeze at age 50 or 65 or 70.
You still have development togo through and you can still
change.
So the prospects for change andthis is where there's great
hope is that our brains, ouremotions, our thoughts, our
(36:10):
feelings, our actions are allable to be changed, no matter
what chronological age you are,from infancy through old age.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Okay, so we've sort of gone on from our initial
listener question.
But when I wrote to you youwrote back to me and you said
I've got a lot to say on thetopic of building healthy
relationships with adultchildren.
I know you've said a lot now,but anything in addition other
of your best guidance forparents to get on the right path
with the development and therelationship?
How has it changed for you?
(36:40):
You've had young adult children, your kids are married, you
have grandkids, you have in-lawsplus you've probably treated
people like that.
Any pieces of advice you wouldgive our listeners on getting on
the right path, dealing withall those mixed relationships
and that sort of thing?
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Some of this will be repetitive.
I'm afraid but I think there'ssome basic things that we should
be doing.
I would say have frequentconversations and start young.
I mean when I say young, I meanpreschool.
So you know, young adulthood isjust one phase in development.
But the more conversations wehave, the more we ask open-ended
(37:18):
questions about how our kidsare feeling, thinking and what's
on their mind, what theirconcerns are, validate their
feelings In some ways.
Even if you disagree, everyoneis right in their perceptions
and you need to tolerate andunderstand what they're thinking
(37:40):
about, what they're goingthrough.
I think being transparent aboutyour own wishes and aspirations
and asking about theirs is superimportant.
Having conversations about theworld and what's going on in the
world is affecting all of us,whether it's climate change or
(38:00):
whether it's the politicalunrest that's happening, because
we can't escape it.
Another one is where are yougetting your information about
self-help or about helpingothers or about the state of the
world?
Because, if it's from socialmedia, be careful, because
digital media is notoriouslyfilled with misinformation and
(38:23):
disinformation.
So ask each other where did youhear that?
How did you learn that?
Where did you get thatinformation?
I mean, if we're going to bemaking rational decisions about
our finances, about our life,about our parenting skills,
about our parenting styles,about how to raise children,
what our young adults are havingkids, what they're learning
about raising to raise children,what our young adults are
(38:44):
having kids, what they'relearning about raising their own
children.
A lot of it's from informationthey're getting on social media
or online.
Is it useful, is it good, is ittrue, is it valid, is it
helpful or is it misguided?
So we need to know somethingabout that.
And I think the other thing iswell, it sounds kind of
(39:08):
simplistic, but doing thingstogether.
During the COVID lockdown andwe were all in isolation, one of
the things my family first didwas we made a quarantine
playlist on Spotify andeverybody contributed songs, but
making a contribution.
Another example is my house.
You can see this room is fullof stuff and the whole house is
(39:32):
this way, and my adult childrencome into this house and they
say there's no place for my kidsto play.
You know you've got too muchstuff, you've got to purge.
Well, it's hard to let go ofthings that are meaningful and
some people could do it withease.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I do it with ease.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Well, you're lucky and you're, and you're, I can't,
I don't.
One of my kids is helping uskind of let go of things and
just give them away to the needyand not have as much junk,
because some of it is junk.
So I mean that's really veryhelpful.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Let me ask you this Is it hard being a psychiatrist
and having grandchildren?
Do you bite your tongue all thetime when you watch your
children parent their children?
A lot of my friends have saidas grandparents.
Things have changed a lot.
The advice they get from theirpediatricians is a lot different
than the advice we got from ourpediatricians.
Do you bite your tongue a lotor do you just or do you give
your opinion?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Well, first of all, I don't use my shrink hat with my
family, friends, my family andmy friends.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
How can you not do that?
Isn't it just in you?
Speaker 1 (40:46):
No, the bottom line is is that when you're a parent,
it doesn't matter how you'retrained.
So I'll give you a greatexample.
When my second daughter who'snow she's going to be, she's 39
(41:09):
when she was, uh, when she heardthat we were having twins,
first thing she did was she, shekind of like, looked at me and
my wife and said no, and shekind of held her hands and put
them together and she said notone baby, two, one is pink and
one is blue.
Well, she was right.
And my sister said take her tothe stock market page and have
her going to.
So but?
(41:30):
But?
But then she played this gamewith these dolls on the floor
kill the bad babies and shewould smash them with you know a
wiffle ball bat, and you knowmy first impulse and what I
really did was I said, like youknow a wiffle ball bat, and you
know my first impulse, and whatI really did was I said, like
you know, caitlin, the hell areyou doing?
Now, that's not what a shrinkwould do.
(41:52):
Oh, I see what you mean Would Ido that with a patient?
Of course I wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I would say what's bothering you, yeah?
Speaker 1 (41:58):
How are you feeling about these babies, right, when
you, when you, when you're aparent?
You don't at least I don'tanalyze anybody, including
myself, lord knows.
You're not a therapist Again.
Think about it this way we allhave different roles.
The role that you play at workor in your place of worship, or
(42:24):
in your community, or with yourkids, or even with your aging
parents, is going to bedifferent, and it doesn't really
matter how you've been trainedprofessionally.
You know you can separate that.
I think Now, if they ask me forprofessional advice, if one of
my grandchildren gets a rash,even though I'm not a
(42:46):
dermatologist, or if they spraintheir ankle or they, but you
went through medical school.
I do, I can weigh in about thatand I can ask colleagues.
And if they ask me somethingthat's psychiatrically oriented,
that's mental health orientedOne of their friends calls me of
course I'll use my psychiatricknowledge and training to kind
(43:11):
of give that kind of advice, butit's only when they ask is that
way?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Okay, our time is getting a little limited.
There's two more questions Ireally want to get in that.
I promised a couple listeners,so I want to first talk about do
you have suggestions forparents who feel shut out by
their adult children?
I know these Facebook groupsand social media but you hear it
over and over again their kidsdon't call them, they aren't
around.
You said earlier about textingevery day and depending on the
(43:40):
kids, and I have friends who gettexts and everything from their
kids every day.
And then if you go on TikTok,there's this new TikTok thing
where people go up to people andsay how often do you text your
mother, how often do you talk toyour mother?
And all these kids say, oh,every day, twice a week.
I call once a week and I'malways reading it, thinking gosh
, do I not have a goodrelationship with my kids
Because I don't hear from themthat often?
(44:01):
And so I just think how do youdeal if you feel like you're
being shut out?
When are you being shut out,and any advice in those kinds of
situations?
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Sure.
First of all, I think if you'refeeling shut out, or if you're
actually shut out, the mostimportant thing to do, I think,
is to really think about whatyou may have done to alienate
them, to isolate them, to turnthem away from you.
Are you being judgmental, areyou critical, are you arrogant
(44:33):
and not being aware of it?
And so I would spend some timethinking, talking with your if
you have a partner or a parentor someone that knows the kids
and get some constructivecriticism, and then I think you
need to have a conversation withthem and say you know, don't
(44:54):
worry about hurting my feelings,you know, I feel that I'm being
shut out.
I got to take responsibility.
The thing not to say is why areyou shutting me out?
I mean, that's a conversationcloser.
It's presuming that they'reshutting you out and it's also
presuming that it's their fault.
Rather, I would say it feels tome like I'm being shut out, not
(45:21):
included, and I would love toknow what I'm doing wrong, what
I'm doing that turns you off,and what I need to do to change.
The kids respect that now.
They may not believe you, butyou've got to demonstrate in.
(45:41):
You know, you've got to walkand shoot gun.
But at the same time you've gotto demonstrate in terms of your
actions and your behavior whatyou're trying to do to change.
And if it's a relationshipthat's had its problems over
time, you know you could say,look, if there have been times
throughout your growing up whenI've really messed up and this
(46:03):
is the price that I'm paying, Ican always get into therapy, I
can talk to somebody, I can havefamily therapy.
You know we can do a bunch ofthings.
And then it really does dependon the kid and how angry they
are or upset they are, or howmuch they trust you to make that
(46:24):
change.
And then you have to rememberthat it's a marathon, it's not a
sprint.
I mean, all behavioral changetakes time and say this is not,
I know this is not going tochange overnight, but can we
work on this together?
And if they say well?
And if they say well, not yet,not till I see you working on
(46:45):
yourself, and I'll say, well,how can I show you if you shut
me out?
You know I mean so, you know,give me a little opening to show
you that I've changed.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
And then I'm working on changing.
I don't think anyone can justchange.
You have to work on changingright, that's right.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So I think that would be the most important thing is
to let is to let them know thatthis is something that that you
care about and that if, ifyou've screwed up again, the
power of apology is awesome andalso, if there's a conflict that
we have, uh, over anything, weneed to resolve this.
I mean there's this.
I mean there's a real positivevalue of conflict.
I mean when conflict betweenparents and kids, whatever age,
(47:33):
are resolved, the relationshipbecomes stronger.
You know, I wrote a blog forthe Clayton Center on the
positive value of conflict.
I mean people think of aconflict as really being
something negative that we needto avoid, and my feeling is is
that conflict occurs in allparts of life, all throughout
life, and it's unavoidable.
(47:53):
The real important question ishow do we resolve it?
How do we?
How do we successfully resolveconflict and then achieve a
greater sense of closeness?
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Okay, I'm going to find that blog and I'll post it
too in my episode notes.
I'm going to ask one morequestion.
Someone asked me this recentlyand I said I would ask you.
I want to talk about religionand culture.
Many listeners tell me that andthis has been a trend, you read
about it their kids are turningaway from their religion or went
a different route, marriedsomeone outside of their
religion, and sometimes it'sharder of the loss of tradition
(48:30):
and culture than it is thereligion.
For example, I'm a GreekAmerican.
I married a non-Greek, soslowly it's watered down.
It was hard for my parents.
When I married a non-Greek, Itried my best to keep my Greek
heritage alive.
Married and non-Greek, I triedmy best to keep my Greek
heritage alive.
But now, as I watch my childrenmove away from it, I watch the
culture disappear more and more,and many Jewish friends are
(48:51):
telling me this too.
So it's more how we helpourselves.
I mean we're not going tochange our children, we're not
going to knock them over thehead and say you better be
playing bouzouki music and servein tzatziki tomorrow night, but
how do we come to terms with itin ourselves?
Speaker 1 (49:07):
With great difficulty .
Yeah, so it's not an easy thingto see that your kids, your
adult children, for example areand many families now are
blended in terms of cultural andreligious backgrounds.
We have to give them the spaceto kind of figure out what
(49:27):
they're choosing to believe inand what rituals and cultural
norms they want to adopt.
What I found, though, is that,whereas they may, at one point
before they have children, kindof reject the heritage within
which they were raised, once youhave children, you want to give
(49:52):
them something.
You want to give them somestructure and some values and
norms and morals and rituals andceremonies to rely on rituals
and ceremonies to rely on.
You know, it's the rare casewhere they don't want their kids
to have some kind of a culturalor spiritual identity.
(50:12):
Now, it may not be the same asyours, but they will eventually,
I think, find one.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
And then what you have to do as a parent is accept
it.
Now you may, and if you, and ifyou have a blended marriage,
your kids are blended.
There's no harm in having twocultural events, Plenty of
(50:43):
embrace, multiple cultures andgroups.
Others will choose to beatheists.
Even in atheism there are normsand values and ceremonies and
rituals that are important fortheir family, that are important
for their family, and they maynot be spiritual and they may
(51:05):
not be the same cultural normsthat you've grown up with, but
they'll find something.
I think we've got to let themfind their way.
You know it used to be that youare X and you shall remain X.
That's not the norm now.
The norm now among the Gen Xsand the Gen Zs and the
millennials is what do I want toidentify with and how do I want
(51:29):
to raise my kids?
What kind of identity do I wantmy kids to have?
And that includes both a racial, ethnic, cultural and spiritual
, all of those aspects ofidentity, including gender
identity.
If we're going to really thinkabout it, that's what they want
(51:50):
their kids to embrace.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
Okay, we're hitting the end now.
I always ask my guests to leavetwo final thoughts that they'd
like our listeners to take away.
It absolutely can be repetitive, but two things that we've
talked about or we haven'ttalked about that you really
want our listeners to take away.
It absolutely can be repetitive, but two things that we've
talked about or we haven'ttalked about that you really
want our listeners to take awayfrom this conversation.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
I'd say be open, honest and have frequent
conversations with your adultchildren about your life and
theirs.
And I'd say, regardless of yoursituation, keep the door open
for advice, support and counsel,without imposing it on them.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Terrific.
This was really wonderful.
You know, Ellen has said suchgreat things about you.
I don't know why it took us solong to have you on, but thank
you.
Thank you for giving your timetoday and thank you for joining
us.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Well, I'm happy to come back.
I mean, I can talk aboutanything.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
I mean okay, I'll remember that.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
I do think that your listeners would appreciate
having the availability of theClay Center.
It's been 10 years now andEllen was one of our founders as
well, and we've got over 400blogs, many video and audio
podcasts, and we have a lot onour YouTube channel short videos
(53:10):
, psas, q&as, and so there's alot.
There's a wealth of materialthey might find useful.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Well, I will definitely put the link in my
social media when this comes outand also in the episode notes.
Well, that's a wrap.
Thank you again, gene.
What an episode so much tothink about.
He certainly is a wealth ofknowledge.
Remember to visit the website.
We talked about the Clay Centerfor Young and Healthy Minds.
(53:39):
The website is mghclaycenterorgand, as he said, there's a lot
of podcasts, a lot of blogs, alot of information about mental
health, child rearing, youngadults, grandchildren,
everything you'd ever want toread about.
And, once again, follow us onsocial media.
(54:01):
Support us by visiting ourwebsite at
biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
Go to the support us button andbuy us a virtual cup of coffee
for just five bucks.
We will really appreciate it.
A huge thanks to ConnieGorn-Fisher, our audio engineer,
for brilliantly editing andproducing this episode.
Think about the power ofapology and remember, sometimes
(54:27):
you just have to bite yourtongue.
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