May 30, 2025 • 50 mins
Dr. Charles Fay, CEO of Love and Logic, delivers a masterclass in parenting adult children with the perfect balance of love and accountability. Drawing from decades of experience and his family legacy in developing the Love and Logic approach, Dr. Fay shares transformative strategies that shift our focus from control to influence.
At the heart of his message lies a powerful truth: "We can never consistently work harder on somebody else's life than they are." This principle challenges us to examine our enabling behaviors masked as care and instead embrace practices that foster true independence. Through relatable scenarios—like the adult child who needs $17,000 for a truck payment or returns home to play video games on the couch—Dr. Fay demonstrates his practical five-step approach that maintains connection while respecting autonomy.
The approach begins with genuine empathy, followed by the crucial question: "What do you think you're going to do?" This simple query hands responsibility back to adult children while communicating your belief in their capability.
When establishing boundaries with adult children living at home, Dr. Fay suggests focusing on two fundamentals: ensuring their situation doesn't interfere with their growth, and making sure their presence remains enjoyable for everyone. These boundaries, communicated with empathy and firmness, create the conditions for mutual respect and continued development.
Dr. Fay offers this memorable wisdom: "The more words I use when things are going wrong, the less effective I become."
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Let's get something on the table right now.
Our adult kids are responsiblefor their own lives.
They're responsible for theirown happiness.
They're responsible for theirown emotions.
If we play the game in ourhearts of blaming ourselves or
allowing them to do that, we'reallowing all of that to actually
(00:24):
interfere with their ability togrow, because our guilt will
come out in ways that causeenabling codependent behavior.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to Bite your Tongue thepodcast.
I'm Denise.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
And I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will join us as we
explore the ins and outs ofbuilding healthy relationships
with our adult children.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Together, we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt
stories and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and
nurture deep connections withour adult children and, of
course, when, to bite ourtongues.
So let's get started.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Hello everyone, this is Denise.
Welcome to another episode ofBite your Tongue, the podcast.
It's late February, folks, andpretty cold in Denver.
I don't know about you, but Iam certainly ready for winter to
end, so maybe this episode willwarm us all up just a bit.
We're very excited abouttoday's guest and in a second,
kirsten is going to tell you allabout him.
(01:30):
Before we get to that, I haveto say two very quick things.
The first is to thank all ofyou for listening.
It means so much to us to knowthat you're here with us,
learning and exploring all theseinteresting topics.
We appreciate you so much.
The second is we're using ournew microphones today, the ones
(01:51):
we were able to purchase becauseso many of you supported our
podcast by buying us a virtualcup of coffee.
It's been quite a struggle toget this sound perfect, so we
hope we're moving in the rightdirection.
So, kirsten, I've babbled onlong enough.
I know you're particularlyexcited about today's guest, so
take it away.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Thank you, denise.
I'm a huge Love Logic fan.
I have been for many, manyyears.
It was founded by Jim Fay, andhis son, charles, has taken it
over.
Basically, they created atrusted approach to parenting,
one that makes sense, it's easyto digest as parents, with real
techniques that you can put intoplay immediately.
(02:30):
So you can imagine I prettymuch fell off my chair when
Denise told me that we weregoing to be interviewing Charles
Fay.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Kirsten.
I was excited about landing himtoo, because I too heard a lot
about Charles Fay.
I know he's internationallyknown, but I wonder if it's more
in Colorado, because he's aColorado native I think three
generation Colorado native.
I was surprised to hear that,yeah, but I think it has a
little bit of a more personaltouch for you too.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
We've taken a few classes.
We took the first toddler classand then because I'm a slow
learner we took a refreshercourse when I think we had my
third kid.
Then we gathered a group of ourfriends who also had teenage
kids and we put our own grouptogether for a teenage class,
which was amazing.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
What I'm really proud of is that you took these
classes.
Going to something like thisand improving our techniques
with our different childrengives us a step up.
We should get going.
So it's my privilege today tointroduce Dr Charles Fay, a
co-founder and CEO of Love Logic.
He himself is a parent, aninternationally recognized
author, consultant and publicspeaker.
(03:35):
Millions of educators, healthprofessionals and parents
worldwide have benefited fromthese techniques, and now that
they're moving into the world ofyoung adults, we're going to
benefit too.
So welcome, dr Fay.
Why don't you start by tellingus a little bit more about
yourself and tell us about thenew book coming our way?
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Thank you so much.
I feel so thankful to be withyou to talk about Love Logic,
because it's been a passion ofours for many decades.
I am a dad.
I need you to know, everybodyknow I have a son who's 41,
who's almost 30, and one whocame along as an incredible
surprise blessing and he isalmost 17.
(04:18):
We've got the adult kids, we'vegot the teenagers and, of
course, they were all newbornsand toddlers at one point in
time.
I was raised with love and logic.
In the 1970s, two men, DrFoster Klein and my father, Jim
Fay, started developing theapproach.
The rest is really history.
We've been going strong at itall those years.
(04:39):
My dad is 90, and I still justenjoy him so much and enjoyed my
mom until she passed away.
So that's really what we're somuch about is how can we have
those relationships wherethey're based on love and
respect and helping our kidsgrow and be strong, thoughtful,
(05:01):
independent people?
I think that early on, therewere probably some pretty
impactful things that my parentsdid that really got me thinking
wow, I ought to listen verycarefully to them, and I
remember one time I'm not doingmy chores and they didn't yell
at me or they didn't guilt me.
(05:22):
It's just it was time to go toT-ball and I was already at my
baseball glove and my mom saidoh Charlie, this is so sad you
didn't do your chores, I didthem for you, but that burned up
all my driving time and shedidn't take me and I remember
trying to be mad at her, but shewas so nice about it that it
(05:44):
created a bit of psychologicalconflict and really the
listeners.
I want everybody to come inclose here.
This is about loving our kidsin ways where we can hold them
accountable.
My parents were very kind aboutit.
I'm still irritated about it,but it was my decision that got
(06:08):
me in trouble.
It was my behavior that createdthis problem for me, and that's
when change happens.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
And tell us about the book, because now you're moving
into a little bit with youngadults, which is what our
listeners are most interested in.
We also have to know if wedidn't use love and logic Logic
raising our children and nowthey're young adults we want to
certainly address.
Can we backpedal into it?
But first tell us a little bitabout the book and why you
decided to move to the area ofyoung adults.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I am a psychologist and I started working with kids.
I started seeing that theapplication for adults is so
powerful.
In fact, love Logic is reallyabout relationship.
For adults is so powerful.
In fact, love Logic is reallyabout relationship.
It's how we can have reallygood boundaries with people, how
we can love them in ways wherewe unleash them to reach their
(06:54):
potential and we're not going tofight with them all about all
the time.
That's the sadness in so manyadult relationships is there's
so many power struggles and somany hard feelings.
Here's the good news Today youcan decide to stop.
Today you can decide to realizethat nobody wins a power
struggle and that there are somereally powerful ways of
(07:18):
influencing people so that theodds go way up that they'll make
great decisions.
That's what we really want tofocus on, I think, is influence
rather than control.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Can you give us an example of a situation financial
independence.
So your kid is 25, can't quiteget his or her act together,
needs money.
You don't want them to behomeless.
What's our approach?
Homeless what's our approach.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
First thing is to ask what do they need in the long
run?
Through this lens, I'm thinkingwhat is going to help them
develop skills and self-respect?
What's going to do that in thelong run, knowing that,
regardless of what I do in theshort term, they might be a
little upset with me.
In fact, they might be prettyupset with me if I do the right
(08:05):
thing.
A young adult comes to me andsays I owe $17,000 on my truck
and you're thinking and it'sokay to do that.
By the way, that's a good skillfrom time to time to look at
your kids and go.
I don't know how to respond tothat.
I'm going to have to give thatsome thought.
One thing I know for sure is Ilove you.
(08:26):
So let's talk in a little whilewhen I'm able to get my wits
about me and I can handle thisreally well.
And that's just called respectand being real.
So don't feel like you have tohave all the answers in the
short term.
Nobody does.
I don't Okay.
But let's say you get backtogether with the kid and the
(08:47):
first step is empathy.
I'm going to give you fivesteps right now.
We're going to get reallypractical friends and you're
going to use these five stepsover and over again with your
adult kids, your young kids,your employees, your boss who
knows?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Does it work with?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
spouses too.
Does anything work yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Yeah.
It's a little more delicate, I'dsay.
But it's such a great questionbecause this is not about
psychological manipulation, thisis not about playing tricks on
people.
It's about a sincererelationship where we are
empowering them to see the greatleaders.
Great parents, great spousesare always thinking how can I
build this other person up sothey don't need me, but they
(09:27):
want to hang out with me.
That's a blessing.
So, anyway, empathy first.
So, oh man, $17,000.
Tell me about that, son.
Well, you know, they saidthey're going to take it if I
don't come up with them.
I can't imagine how hard thatmust be.
And so you're doing your best todemonstrate that you really
care, because we know thatpeople are more likely to listen
(09:49):
to our ideas if they know thatwe truly care about them.
You're holding back.
I'll put it that way.
You're saying I've got toconnect with this kid, this
young adult or this older adultbefore I share any information.
Okay, so lots of empathy.
And then you're ready to moveon to step two.
When they're kind of looking atyou like, is that all you got?
(10:11):
Then ask this question.
This is step two.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
What do you think you're going to do.
I love that.
What do you think you're goingto do?
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, crickets start chirping at this point when you
ask that, because all of asudden, this person is starting
to process oh, this is my thing.
See, what we're really doinghere is handing the problem back
in a loving way, but we're alsosending a nonverbal message
that is so powerful andencouraging, and the message is
(10:42):
I believe in you.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Like you can do it.
You can do it kind of thingYou're capable.
Yeah Right, it's huge.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Empowering them to make their own better decision.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Love and logic is so big.
High expectation messages toour kids, to our adult kids, to
everybody.
We know You're capable.
Okay, what do you think you'regoing to do?
And then they're going to lookat you and probably say, I don't
know, I don't know.
That's why I'm asking you.
They usually don't.
They're not impressed when youask that question a lot of times
(11:13):
, but it's still the right thingto do.
So the third step and I'm goingto try to be a good teacher
First step empathy.
Second step what do you thinkyou're going to do?
Third step is no-transcriptwhat.
(11:47):
And I like to stop here,especially with adults, and say
listen, the most important thingfor me is that I care about you
and I don't want to be bossy, Idon't want to stick my nose
into stuff that isn't mybusiness, but because I love you
, I think I have some ideas thatmight be helpful.
(12:10):
Do you really want to hear them?
Because I need you to tell meif you don't want to hear them
and if the adult says you know,no, I got this, I'm good.
I really don't want to hearwhat you have to say.
Respect that.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
And you've done your job.
They're leaving with the$17,000 debt that you're not
taking any part of.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Thank, you so much.
That is such a great point.
I mean you've done your job.
Your job is to hand the problemback and to show you love them.
Your job is not to solve theproblem.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
And really, I think you can say to yourself I'm off
the hook now I offered.
Most of the time, though,people will change their minds
because they're kind ofdesperate, or they'll say, no,
no, I really do want to hear.
And then you can say, great,and so I just have maybe two or
three ideas.
And again, let's be clear thatI'm not here to tell you what to
(13:01):
do.
Okay, so you'd like to hearthem.
So, some people?
This is step four.
You give them a menu of optionsand don't try to be brilliant
with it.
They don't have to be fantastic, earth-shattering ideas, just a
little menu of options and thenask them how each will work for
(13:22):
them.
I guess that some people decidethat they're going to go and
talk with the financing people,the bank, and see if there's any
other arrangements that can bemade.
What are your thoughts?
How do you think that mightwork for you?
Well, I already tried that.
They don't even care.
All they want is their money,right?
Oh, that's hard.
(13:42):
A little more empathy.
Another thought I have are youstill interested?
See, I'm always checking that.
That's important friends orother people they know who might
(14:07):
be willing to help them out.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Notice, this isn't a great idea by the way I just
broke away from the conversationwith the kid.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Notice, this isn't a great idea.
See, the beauty of not havinggreat ideas to share is it
forces the other person to besmarter.
Sometimes we have such greatideas that the other person
doesn't have to think.
See, love and logic.
People are more than willing tonot be very bright if it'll
help other people be a lotbrighter.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I've never thought about that.
It's an interesting idea.
That's hard to do becauseyou're sitting there saying sell
the.
Thing thing.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I mean, you know exactly what needs to happen,
right, and as a parent, you'rethinking, okay, here's what,
here's the fantasy of what youwant to say, which isn't the
right thing.
Let's be clear don't try thisat home, okay, but but the
fantasy, you know what, what'sin your heart, which is actually
the right answer?
But?
But the wrong tactic is oh, forPete's sake, why did you buy
(15:07):
the thing in the first place andthen you put the bigger rims on
it and you got the stereo?
I mean, I did not raise you tothink that money grows on trees.
Are you listening?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
to me and 95% of us.
I would say no, 100% of us haveall said that at one time in
our lives, and if we haven't,I'm shocked.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I often say that human beings have a part of the
brain called the lecture lobeand it remains dormant until we
become parents.
And then it just activates andit's got all the cliches for
crying out loud.
How many times do I have totell you you don't know the
sacrifices we've made, You'regoing to put your eye out, that
kind of stuff.
We can laugh about it and ifyou mess up, it's okay.
(15:48):
I mean, let's get something onthe table right now.
Our adult kids are responsiblefor their own lives.
They're responsible for theirown happiness.
They're responsible for theirown emotions.
If we play the game in ourhearts of blaming ourselves or
allowing them to do that, we'reallowing all of that to actually
(16:10):
interfere with their ability togrow, because our guilt will
come out in ways that causeenabling codependent behavior.
So we really have to be carefulabout remembering yeah, we did
the best we could.
Now they are responsible fortheir lives.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
What age do you say that?
We've talked to a lot of peoplewhere they say this whole idea
of sometimes it's not till 26.
It used to be 18.
You were an adult.
Nowadays it's been extended.
What do you think about that?
And I also then want to go backto make sure we got all five
and review those.
I want to go back to that.
But when you say they're anadult, they have to take care of
themselves.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
When yeah Well, let's , let's think about it a
different way, and then I'llanswer your question.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
We could never.
Okay.
I'm going to say this loud andclear we can never consistently
work harder on somebody else'slife than they are.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
We can never consistently work harder on
somebody else's life than theyare.
We can never consistently workharder on somebody else's life
than they are, and as parents,we did a lot of that right.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah.
And so now notice the language.
Sometimes we do work harder onother people's lives because
it's the right thing to do.
They're in a crisis situation.
They can't pull themselves out.
We just, in our heart, know weneed to be helicopters in this
situation.
If that's done occasionally,from time to time, when it's
(17:33):
really needed, that's calledbeing a kind, humane, good
person.
When we do it consistently,it's called sabotaging that
other person's life becausethey'll become dependent on it.
That other person's lifebecause they'll become dependent
on it.
So this paradigm here of notworking harder on a consistent
basis informs everything we do.
(17:54):
Let's answer the question whenshould we start backing away?
We should start as soon as theyare about seven years old, the
oldest, where we start backingaway, ideally speaking, allowing
(18:15):
them to own stuff, and we stepback and we hope and pray.
They blow it every day and whenthey do, we say to ourselves oh
, thank goodness, because ofcourse I'm the kind of parent
that doesn't allow mistakes thatare life and death.
We hope and pray.
They make plenty of poordecisions about the small stuff
so that as they're growing, theydevelop a good understanding of
cause and effect about thebigger stuff.
So now let's just say that I'ma parent.
(18:40):
I realize I've owned my kids'lives too much and now they're
not as mature as they should be.
And let's say, this kid is nowan adult.
Okay, realistically, I may haveto be a little bit more
involved, I may have to do moreguidance, but I am going to
(19:00):
implement an action plan where,every single day, I am going to
hand them progressively moreresponsibility over their own
life.
So it's difficult to answer thequestion.
Ideally, by the time they're 16years of age, they ought to be
pretty much running their ownlife.
Now we know that the frontalcortex does not fully develop
(19:20):
until later.
We need to keep our hands onthe steering wheel and be ready
to go.
No, you know that's okay.
You know they need plenty ofsupervision, they need us to be
aware, but as much as possiblethey ought to think that we
aren't Okay.
But let's say, let's say I havea 27 year old kid and they're
(19:42):
pretty irresponsible.
And I look back I think, yeah,I made some mistakes, I did too
much.
Hey, I'm going to put togethera plan.
What are the specific thingsthat this young person can start
doing and taking responsibilityfor and what are some of the
mistakes that I hope they makeright now.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Because now the mistakes are much bigger.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
The consequences are bigger.
They matter more than when theywere seven.
They matter more, but they stillneed to make them.
Right Now, when we think aboutmistakes, we think, oh, what a
horrible thing.
High-functioning people tend tothink of mistakes as oh no, it
would be horrible if my kidsmade mistakes.
No, every single greatentrepreneur.
(20:24):
I just watched a documentary onHonda, the guy who developed
the car company man.
That guy blew it like crazy.
I mean, he made a lot ofmistakes.
All great people make a lot ofmistakes.
In fact, the greater people,the more.
The people who really shapethis world probably made a lot
more mistakes than the rest ofus.
The beauty of a mistake is whenyou make it and then you have
(20:48):
to own it and then you get onthe other side of that mistake
as a result of you owning it andworking through it.
How do you feel about yourself?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Much better.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
I want all kids to go out in the world and think you
know, if I'm going to live free,if I'm going to truly be free
and I'm truly going to reach mypotential, I'm going to make
some mistakes.
I'm going to have to.
Of course, I want to be prettysmart about the ones I make
right.
But I know, though, because ofhistory, that when I make
(21:22):
mistakes, I can handle it, cangrow from the hardship.
A few things I can think ofthat are more important for all
of our kids and our young adultkids, and to have that sense of
security of knowing that, yeah,I'm going to mess up and I can
handle it and I'm going to grow.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
I think that that's one of the most important things
that I have taken away fromLove Logic.
What has been interesting to meis now that my kids are adults
and for the most part theyhandle everything fine.
But there are those moments andit is so much more painful at
least from what I remember somuch more painful now watching
(22:05):
them as adults make thosedecisions and struggle.
When they were kids, my husbandand I were high-fiving and
super excited that they'dscrewed something up or failed
at something.
Now, not so much.
Now it's anxiety causing.
What is that about?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I think that's absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, you're spot on with that.
I could say, having adult kidsmyself and then one who's 17,
who's getting really, reallyclose, okay, yeah, you feel like
, oh, my goodness, now thestakes are higher or whatever,
and it can just be so hard.
And it's so interesting because, from a psychological
(22:45):
standpoint, when our kids becomeolder teenagers and adults,
psychologically speaking, thetextbooks would say, okay, we
should be backing away, okay, weshould be allowing them to have
autonomy, independence, reallybacking away and saying to
(23:06):
ourselves that's what they needdevelopmentally.
But because of our own fear inour hearts, we tend to do the
opposite.
And then, talking about adultchildren sparks fly.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I was going to ask you about that, because now
they're saying 25% of adult kidsare estranged from their
parents.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, it's an absolute tragedy.
So I'm going to say some thingsthat are really hard to do, and
if you talk to my wife, she'lltell you he's probably not that
good at doing that the stuff hetalks about consistently.
So, you know, let's just getthat out too.
I want us to be gentle withourselves and I don't want
anybody watching this thinking,oh, I made so many mistakes, I'm
(23:46):
not capable.
Be gentle with ourselves and Idon't want anybody watching this
thinking, oh, I made so manymistakes, I'm not capable.
Oh, you're capable and you'regoing to make a lot of mistakes,
and that's okay.
You don't have to be perfect.
The tough things that we allknow most of us already know.
I'll just go on down a list ofthings that are tough to really
put into action.
I think number one is the onlyperson that I can control is
(24:06):
myself.
Duh, we know that, but it's sohard to remember it.
The only person that I shouldcontrol is myself.
The world is not changedthrough opinion.
It's changed through example,through opinion, it's changed
through example.
The beauty of all of this isthat when we can work towards
(24:30):
relationship, then our influencegoes up.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Oh, you mean building the relationship with the
person, your influence, okay,okay, lots of deposits.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
And so the whole question is who do we really
want to follow?
See, I'm taking a big chapterout of the leadership book right
now.
Hey, who do we really want tofollow?
Somebody that we love and werespect.
It's not somebody who isconstantly chasing us around
telling us you should do this,don't do that.
Why did you do that, how comeyou did that?
Or bailing us out of all of ourproblems.
(25:07):
It's somebody that we look atand we say that person has a
really healthy life and thatperson really cares about me.
They see the best in me.
And then when we run intosomebody like that, we tend to
internalize their valuessubconsciously.
We do it automatically.
I'd like all the listeners tojust pause.
(25:29):
Let's take a deep breath andthink about who had the biggest
influence on us.
May have been a teacher, parent, coach, etc.
But they were probably veryloving but strong at the same
time, and they had their acttogether.
In terms of your view of it.
They led an honorable life, anddid they tell you to adopt
(25:52):
their values, or did you just doit?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah, you're right, you're absolutely right we've
(26:20):
got to set them free.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
If we can set them free and we can say I love you
and if you want any ideas, ifyou'd like to share your heart
with me, I'm more than happy toshare some ideas with you.
They may be good ones, they maynot be good ones I'll let you
be the judge of that.
But I'm here for you, I careabout you and see there's great
(26:43):
risk in setting our kids free,our adult kids free Great risk,
maybe?
The question all of us have toentertain is where is the risk
higher?
Is the risk higher in settingthem free, still being involved,
but being a consultant, ratherthan a drill sergeant who tells
(27:07):
them what to do, or a rescuerhelicopter that always bails
them out, but setting them freeby being a consultant Is there
greater risk there?
Is there more risk when I tryto direct the course of their
life and end up having majorpower struggles with them?
Where's the greater risk?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Then they're only blaming you.
They don't have to look inward,they don't have to figure
anything out for themselves.
So certainly the greater riskis in not setting them free.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
That's what I think, but you know I'm going to let
the listeners decide about that,because I really want to be a
good model of love and logic.
We throw out what we believe.
I have so much respect forpeople when they share what they
truly believe.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Everything you're saying makes so much sense.
I think that the world haschanged so much that there's so
much pressure on parents ofadult children to be
overconnected with their adultkids.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, it makes so much sense from what I'm seeing
with lots of parents and my ownexperiences.
And, yeah, it does feel like thestakes are high and a lot of
times I see a dynamic happen andI've had it in my own life
where we do a lot of thingslet's say, we do a lot of things
that help our kids beindependent and then something
(28:34):
terrible happens, terrible.
Okay, they become independentand then we're like, oh, they
don't need me anymore, and thenit's really easy for us to throw
up a mess somewhere here andthere, so that there's some
interaction going on and, thetruth be told, it's like I want
(28:55):
to go for quality relationshiprather than constant connection
over hassles and problems, right, and so, yeah, one of the risks
, so to speak, is that when weraise really competent kids, we
might not hear from them quiteas much as maybe some of the
parents who raise kids who can'tfight themselves out of a wet
(29:17):
paper bag, to be honest.
But we don't want that.
We want what's good for them.
That's the gift of love.
The gift of love is settingpeople free.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
You've said that so many times and that's what was
in my head when I said that thegift of love is setting people
free.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, yeah, and setting people free and to live
their life, even if it doesn'tturn out that great.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
That's really hard for a parent to watch that
happen.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
I just said that, and now I'm going to have to try to
live with that in my own life.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
You know I'm going to have to apply that because I
said it.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
But it's really important and I will mention my
book.
It's Raising Mentally StrongKids.
It'll be out in March.
Co-authored it with Dr DanielAmen.
He's a neuroscientist, a brainhealth expert.
Be available through TyndalePublishers.
But you know, my passion isreally about mental strength,
(30:15):
because when people are mentallystrong, they're able to love
other people well, becausethey're not constantly insecure
or constantly trying to controlother people when they don't
need to.
They're secure enough to beable to trust other people's
competency and to put upboundaries, to say hey, I'm more
than happy to spend time withyou when I feel like I'm being
(30:39):
respected, or I'm happy to haveyou live with us to get your
feet back on the ground, as longas I feel like we're getting
along really nicely and I haveto do less housework.
Because I want you to haveself-respect, I want you to know
that you don't need a rescuemission.
(31:01):
This is just a short-termopportunity for you to get
yourself back on the road, so tospeak.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I know one of the chapters in your book is Adult
Children who Act Like Children.
That's the title of the chapter, right?
Okay?
So without giving it all away,why, why is that the title?
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Well, because it happens all the time.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I know, but we need examples.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Well, you know, I need $17,000.
Or they move home and theytreat you.
They act like a belligerent13-year-old.
They roll their eyes, they're25, they're 40 years old and
they're demanding of you.
They're laying around on thecouch, there's beer cans on the
table, they're playing videogames, that kind of stuff, or
(31:49):
they're criticizing every moveyou make or trying to make you
feel guilty and those sorts ofthings.
So those are a lot of thebehaviors that we're talking
about.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
So then immediately we put in to practice the five,
beginning with empathy.
Like, ok, so the kids laying onthe couch playing video games
and they've been trying, quote,unquote, trying to get a job, ok
, so the empathy is it must bereally hard to find work these
days, even though theunemployment right now, I mean
it must be really hard to findwork these days, or what?
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Take us somewhere through that your parents.
Okay, oh, I'm good with it, dad.
Well, the truth of it is is I'mnot.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Oh, you can say that Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Because I'm never going to be good with seeing you
not grow son.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
And you're taking.
You're showing them that you'retaking care of yourself with
that statement.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
And take care of them because, I never, ever and it's
okay to say this to your adultkid I never want to feel like I
am interfering with your abilityto grow and be self-sufficient,
never want to feel that way.
That's why we have this basicrule in the house that I'm never
going to work harder on yourlife than you are.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
But the sad thing is, right now there's a couple
problems.
Number one I feel like I'minterfering with your ability to
mature because I'm making ittoo easy for you to live here.
And number two there's beerstains on the couch.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
That's a problem, and you're nice when you're saying
this.
You're soft-spoken.
All of this comes to youcompletely naturally right now
right, well, right now.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
But if that happened in my own home five minutes from
now, it would be a lot harderfor me, and that's why we
practice this stuff ahead oftime, and we might even get a
life coach or a therapist towork with us on this.
And how do we deliver it sothat we can be proud of the way
we handled it?
Yeah, it's going to take a lotof practice, a lot of
preparation, and that's okay.
(34:00):
That's okay.
And so, son, I'm more thanhappy to help you continue to
live here, as long as I see thatyou're working harder on your
life than I am.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
I am working hard.
You just don't see what I'mdoing when I'm not on the couch.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
And I'm not hard.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
You just don't see what I'm doing when I'm not on
the couch and I'm not done.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Okay, see, that's called.
Not going to get sidetracked bythe arguing.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Gosh, that is good.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So two things, son.
I want to make it simple.
As long as I feel like I'm notinterfering with your growing,
and number two, as long as yourmom and I are really enjoying
having you here, we can talkabout what that looks like, but
this should be enjoyable for us.
If we are feeling stressedbecause you're here and we're
(34:51):
not feeling respected or thehouse isn't being taken care of,
then that's not fun for us.
So just two things growth andthat it's pleasant for us.
Those are two boundaries thatabsolutely have to be in place,
regardless of how old the kid is.
If they come back and live withus.
There are a lot of kids whocome back and live with their
(35:13):
parents adult kids, I should sayand it goes great.
It's not always horrible.
I know people who said I'm soblessed because my son and his
wife moved back in and theyworked hard.
They helped us out with thehousework, they were pleasant.
He was working really hard tofind a job.
Things got worked out.
We had some rough spots, but itwas really positive.
(35:35):
It's not a horrible thing.
In fact, when my mom grew up inGlobeville, Colorado some of
you will know where that is the.
European enclave down in Denverand I think there were like five
generations in the house.
There just has to be reallygood boundaries.
Those are the boundaries we setwith the kid.
The boundaries we set withourselves are just important and
(35:56):
that is that number one.
I'm going to follow through onthose boundaries I set with the
kid.
The boundaries we set withourselves are just important and
that is that number one I'mgoing to.
You know, I'm going to followthrough on those boundaries I
set with a kid.
And number two I'm going toremember that me trying to
dictate their life or controlwhat they decide is a recipe for
disaster.
I only control the things thatare trying to control the things
(36:19):
that affect me directly interms of my well-being.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
You know I want to go back to your conversation with
the son on the couch.
I think at this point you alsohave to really control, because
I could imagine a kid sayingyou've always liked Susan better
than me.
You always think I'm the onethat's been disrespectful.
You've caused this Susan betterthan me.
You always think I'm the onethat's been disrespectful.
You've caused this.
Then, this deep love you havefor this kid, you have to
(36:46):
separate the guilt and the love.
With this logic you're puttingin.
It sounds like, but I couldjust see that well, you're the
one that's caused this.
I'd be doing so much better ifyou treated me the way you
treated Sally.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Let's role play, because you're right on a roll
with this.
Let's pretend that you're thekid and I'll do the best that I
can.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Okay, okay.
I'm sick of you telling me thisstuff.
You made me like this.
You gave Sally so much morethan you gave me, and now I'm
struggling.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
So tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I want to hear more about you, you told me my whole
life I was never as smart as her.
I'm never going to be, as maybehe didn't do it directly, but
those were the messages I got.
I'm never going to be as greatas Sally, so I'm not.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
So you feel like I don't.
I didn't treat you well.
That's what's causing.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
I do.
There's no question about it.
I don't feel it, I know it.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I'm so glad that you shared that with me, son.
I'm really thankful that youshared that with me, and some do
you suppose that changes myexpectations.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
So you do have.
You're getting rid of all theemotion and coming at it with
complete logic.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
There's two skills at least two skills embedded in
that.
First of all, listening,without trying to make any sense
of it.
When somebody's upset, it neverhurts to listen, but don't take
it to heart, it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Don't listen that hard, that's hard.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
It's like the old saying never reason with a drunk
.
The kid is drunk on hurt,they're drunk on emotion.
And you can listen, but youdon't let your heart listen to
it, because once that door getsopened, it's going to be hard
for you to stick with theboundaries that you set.
Okay, don't try to reason,don't try to justify yourself,
(38:30):
because it's not like they'reall of a sudden going to say wow
, I'm so glad you put it thatway.
I was so disgruntled andentitled, but now I'm going to
get my life together.
They don't respond like that.
It's not like a light goes offover their head and they're like
thank you so much for yourwisdom.
So I say to myself listen, butdon't let it into the heart.
(38:53):
And then go right back to thecentral issue that you're trying
to achieve here two boundariesgoing right back, because, the
truth be told, human beings arereally good at playing
distraction.
We're going to start up a sideissue over something and then we
go down that rabbit hole andthe original issue isn't
(39:13):
addressed.
That's one of the most commondynamics known to humankind.
Don't fall for it.
And so, again, this issomething if you're really
hurting over what's going onwith your adult kids.
I do recommend getting with alife coach, expressing these
things, practicing these skills,and not doing this until you
feel like, okay, I can do this,I'm going to be confident with
(39:38):
this and this is really a giftto my kid.
Let's be blunt there may bevery well be a time pretty soon
in this specific scenario wherethe parents say there is no
longer a spot for you in thishome because we're not seeing
(39:58):
you be able to live with thoseboundaries we set so painful.
I don't want to minimize thatand the pain of that.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
I want to make sure we go through those five things,
starting with empathy.
This has been so valuable Ithink I'm going to have to
listen to this over and overagain.
So, anyway, go ahead.
So empathy number one.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, empathy number one.
And we use these anytime a kidhas a problem.
So the kid is not getting a job.
Empathy Number two what do youthink you're going to do?
I don't know.
Number three would you like tohear some ideas?
We ask permission to share ideasfirst.
Would you like to hear somethoughts?
First, would you like to hearsome thoughts?
(40:38):
And then the next step we givea menu of options.
Some people decide to do suchand such.
How would that work for you?
And the options don't have tobe great ones.
I know, with the $17,000 rockissue, it might be well.
Some people decide to ride thebus.
I mean, how would that work?
And you try to be as sincere aspossible.
Now the fifth step work, andyou try to be as sincere as
(41:01):
possible.
Now the fifth step.
Oh, we've been teasing this forquite a while.
Allow them to solve the problemwell, or solve the problem
poorly, or not solve the problemat all, because it is their
problem.
See step five.
It's so tempting when we get tothat point to say, hey, that
second one we talked about isreally a good one.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Do that, don't decide for them If they say to you can
you lend me the money?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Okay, son, that's not an option.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
I know you have it.
Why can't you lend it to me?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
I don't feel comfortable with it, you don't
know.
By the way, it's breaking awayfrom the role play you don't owe
them an explanation.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Okay, got it.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
In fact, the nastier they are about it, the less of
an explanation you owe them.
Don't feel comfortable with it.
Or you could always say I justfeel like it would be a lot
better growth experience if youcould learn how to solve this
problem yourself.
But make it short, very fewwords.
You want the kid to choose thecourse of action, or choose not
(42:08):
to choose, which is againchoosing.
But see if I choose for the kid, will they learn?
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Well, I guess, if they take one of your options,
but they're choosing one of theoptions, yeah, okay, got it.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Now let's say I pick the option.
I make the mistake of pickingthe option and they do it and it
turns out well.
That's sad too, because theyhave to say to themselves well,
my dad or my mom told me to pickthat one.
I want them as much as possibleand this is a takeaway.
Let them own it.
(42:46):
Let them fully own theconsequences of their poor
decisions, but also allow themto own the glorious consequences
of their good decisions.
Ownership happens when they arethe ones that go out and have
to do the struggle and have toultimately decide which option
(43:07):
is best for them.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Okay, before we get to the final takeaways, I have
one question, because I get thisa lot from listeners the person
your adult child selects astheir spouse is really important
, but again, it's their decision.
Is there anything you say as aparent when you just well, I
don't think anyone really knowsit's wrong, but you really
question whether this is a gooddecision or do you just let it
(43:32):
roll?
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Here's my take on it.
From time to time, if I have areally good relationship with my
kids, I can go to them and say,hey, can I share something that
concerns me, as long as I don'ttell you what to do.
I have some concerns aboutlet's just call her Rebecca.
I have some concerns aboutRebecca and if the kid listens
(43:54):
and they're open to somethoughts, you can share
something and of course, it'sshared out of love and love for
Rebecca as well.
I'm just concerned about that.
She seems like she's reallyangry about some things and it
comes out in a lot of ways and Ifeel bad for her and I'm
concerned for you and I don'twant to say too much.
I don't want to be a jerk, soplease tell me if I'm being a
(44:16):
jerk with this.
And, son, I just love you and Iknow you're going to do what's
best for you, okay, and then youhave to back out.
Again the idea is you give theinformation and then you say to
yourself, oh, thank goodness,I'm off the hook Now I just pray
that this is going to work outwell for both of them.
But we got to let it go.
I also believe that that issomething I know, I know.
(44:43):
I know that's something thatyour adult child has to live
themselves.
The less you get involved intrying to be a counselor or
coach in their relationship oranything other than just a
loving parent, I mean, stay outof it, back off and bite your
tongue, right.
(45:04):
Bite your tongue.
Yeah, I love that title.
This could have been a reallyshort interview.
I just say bite your tongue,and then we'd be done.
I know I know we're constantlyasking ourselves are we truly
trusting in our kids' ability tolearn, even if they make poor
decisions?
And are we also rememberingthat I can't control everything
(45:27):
that happens in life and Ishouldn't?
Yep, yeah, Hard medicine toswallow.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Kirsten, do you have any other questions?
I just had to ask about thespouse thing because I probably
get an email a day about that.
Is there anything else you wantto ask before you ask for his
takeaways?
Speaker 3 (45:44):
My question is more on what you're seeing today.
I think that the world haschanged a lot.
I think that sometimes theconsequences of their decisions
at a much younger age it can belife-ending, life-changing.
All of the above.
Are you seeing that play out inreal time?
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Things are high stakes.
There's a lot of things thatreally are high stakes.
We want to keep our thinkingcaps on.
I mean, we want to be thinkingand we want to be evaluating the
things that are coming our wayand asking is this truly a life
and death thing?
Is this something where I needto break my basic rule of not
(46:25):
getting too involved and jump in?
Sometimes we do that.
So please don't stop thinkingjust because maybe I threw some
basic principles up that aretrue most of the time.
So we need to use good commonsense.
We also need to remember andthis is a takeaway, and so lock
(46:46):
this in your mind, write this onyour forehead or on a piece of
paper would be even better wecan never consistently work
harder on somebody else's lifethan they are.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Okay, say that one more time.
So, dr Fay, your two takeaways.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
The first one is we can never consistently work
harder on somebody else's lifethan they are, because when we
work harder than they are, thenthey get accustomed to that and
they stop working hard.
And when we're no longerworking hard on our own lives,
we're not growing and maturing.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Wow, does that apply to husbands and emptying the
dishwasher.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
And honey.
I was going to cook dinnertonight but I thought, oh, that
means there's going to be dishesand I just don't have the
energy to put all those away.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
We need one more good one before we say goodbye.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Okay.
The more words I use whenthings are going wrong, the less
effective I become.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Bite your tongue.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Yeah, the more words I use when things are going
wrong, when there's heavyemotion going on, the more words
I use, the less effective Ibecome.
I save the words for calm times.
I have a little more folksylittle soundbite for that,
because I'm a folksy guy, youknow, but mine is.
If you don't want to mess, sayless.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
If you don't want to mess, say less.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Dr Fay.
This has been such an honor.
Kirsten was so excited aboutthis and I was not as familiar.
You really wrapped so much upin such a short time for us and
I can't tell you how much weappreciate it.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Thank you for allowing me to share my passion,
and all of you listeners, thankyou for taking your time.
I mean time is valuable.
It's something you can't getback, and so thank you for
honoring me and blessing me withyour time.
Speaker 3 (48:44):
Thank you so very much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I want you to know that we will share your book and
everything in all of ourepisode notes.
Thank you, well, that's a wrap.
I don't know about you, kirsten, but that was amazing.
I'm sure it will take a lot ofpractice.
So much of what he said was sovaluable, and I also liked the
idea that he suggested, if youstruggle, get a coach so you can
(49:07):
practice.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Yeah, I thought that was really a great idea.
There were so many things thatI wanted to ask him and then he
would address whatever it wasthat I was writing down to ask,
so that was really fun for us.
I think there was a lot ofcontent there.
I loved these takeaways that wecan never consistently work
harder on someone else's lifethan they are, which is huge.
(49:31):
I say that to my kids all thetime.
It sounds like you're thinkingof this more than they're
thinking of it.
So who's doing the work?
And then the other one the morewords I use, the more
ineffective I become.
So it's that idea like you'rereasoning with a drunk, so to
speak, and you just keep going,and going, and going, and going,
thinking that the one thing yousay is going to change the
(49:51):
trajectory.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
And that's just never how it plays out, kirsten,
you're so right, I think, bothof those I'm going to type up
and put on my bulletin board.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I swear, I am.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Anyway, okay.
Again, thank you to all ourlisteners.
We appreciate your support.
Remember you can buy us avirtual cup of coffee at
biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
Look for the support us button.
$5 is all it takes to let usknow you love the podcast and
want us to continue.
Thank you again to ConnieGorin-Fisher, our audio engineer
.
Want us to continue.
Thank you again to ConnieGorrent-Fisher, our audio
(50:22):
engineer.
And remember, just like CharlesFaye said, sometimes you've got
to bite your tongue.
Let's get something on the table right now.
Our adult kids are responsiblefor their own lives.
They're responsible for theirown happiness.
They're responsible for theirown emotions.
If we play the game in ourhearts of blaming ourselves or
allowing them to do that, we'reallowing all of that to actually
(00:24):
interfere with their ability togrow, because our guilt will
come out in ways that causeenabling codependent behavior.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to Bite your Tongue thepodcast.
I'm Denise.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
And I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will join us as we
explore the ins and outs ofbuilding healthy relationships
with our adult children.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Together, we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt
stories and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and
nurture deep connections withour adult children and, of
course, when, to bite ourtongues.
So let's get started.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Hello everyone, this is Denise.
Welcome to another episode ofBite your Tongue, the podcast.
It's late February, folks, andpretty cold in Denver.
I don't know about you, but Iam certainly ready for winter to
end, so maybe this episode willwarm us all up just a bit.
We're very excited abouttoday's guest and in a second,
kirsten is going to tell you allabout him.
(01:30):
Before we get to that, I haveto say two very quick things.
The first is to thank all ofyou for listening.
It means so much to us to knowthat you're here with us,
learning and exploring all theseinteresting topics.
We appreciate you so much.
The second is we're using ournew microphones today, the ones
(01:51):
we were able to purchase becauseso many of you supported our
podcast by buying us a virtualcup of coffee.
It's been quite a struggle toget this sound perfect, so we
hope we're moving in the rightdirection.
So, kirsten, I've babbled onlong enough.
I know you're particularlyexcited about today's guest, so
take it away.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Thank you, denise.
I'm a huge Love Logic fan.
I have been for many, manyyears.
It was founded by Jim Fay, andhis son, charles, has taken it
over.
Basically, they created atrusted approach to parenting,
one that makes sense, it's easyto digest as parents, with real
techniques that you can put intoplay immediately.
(02:30):
So you can imagine I prettymuch fell off my chair when
Denise told me that we weregoing to be interviewing Charles
Fay.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Kirsten.
I was excited about landing himtoo, because I too heard a lot
about Charles Fay.
I know he's internationallyknown, but I wonder if it's more
in Colorado, because he's aColorado native I think three
generation Colorado native.
I was surprised to hear that,yeah, but I think it has a
little bit of a more personaltouch for you too.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
We've taken a few classes.
We took the first toddler classand then because I'm a slow
learner we took a refreshercourse when I think we had my
third kid.
Then we gathered a group of ourfriends who also had teenage
kids and we put our own grouptogether for a teenage class,
which was amazing.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
What I'm really proud of is that you took these
classes.
Going to something like thisand improving our techniques
with our different childrengives us a step up.
We should get going.
So it's my privilege today tointroduce Dr Charles Fay, a
co-founder and CEO of Love Logic.
He himself is a parent, aninternationally recognized
author, consultant and publicspeaker.
(03:35):
Millions of educators, healthprofessionals and parents
worldwide have benefited fromthese techniques, and now that
they're moving into the world ofyoung adults, we're going to
benefit too.
So welcome, dr Fay.
Why don't you start by tellingus a little bit more about
yourself and tell us about thenew book coming our way?
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Thank you so much.
I feel so thankful to be withyou to talk about Love Logic,
because it's been a passion ofours for many decades.
I am a dad.
I need you to know, everybodyknow I have a son who's 41,
who's almost 30, and one whocame along as an incredible
surprise blessing and he isalmost 17.
(04:18):
We've got the adult kids, we'vegot the teenagers and, of
course, they were all newbornsand toddlers at one point in
time.
I was raised with love and logic.
In the 1970s, two men, DrFoster Klein and my father, Jim
Fay, started developing theapproach.
The rest is really history.
We've been going strong at itall those years.
(04:39):
My dad is 90, and I still justenjoy him so much and enjoyed my
mom until she passed away.
So that's really what we're somuch about is how can we have
those relationships wherethey're based on love and
respect and helping our kidsgrow and be strong, thoughtful,
(05:01):
independent people?
I think that early on, therewere probably some pretty
impactful things that my parentsdid that really got me thinking
wow, I ought to listen verycarefully to them, and I
remember one time I'm not doingmy chores and they didn't yell
at me or they didn't guilt me.
(05:22):
It's just it was time to go toT-ball and I was already at my
baseball glove and my mom saidoh Charlie, this is so sad you
didn't do your chores, I didthem for you, but that burned up
all my driving time and shedidn't take me and I remember
trying to be mad at her, but shewas so nice about it that it
(05:44):
created a bit of psychologicalconflict and really the
listeners.
I want everybody to come inclose here.
This is about loving our kidsin ways where we can hold them
accountable.
My parents were very kind aboutit.
I'm still irritated about it,but it was my decision that got
(06:08):
me in trouble.
It was my behavior that createdthis problem for me, and that's
when change happens.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
And tell us about the book, because now you're moving
into a little bit with youngadults, which is what our
listeners are most interested in.
We also have to know if wedidn't use love and logic Logic
raising our children and nowthey're young adults we want to
certainly address.
Can we backpedal into it?
But first tell us a little bitabout the book and why you
decided to move to the area ofyoung adults.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I am a psychologist and I started working with kids.
I started seeing that theapplication for adults is so
powerful.
In fact, love Logic is reallyabout relationship.
For adults is so powerful.
In fact, love Logic is reallyabout relationship.
It's how we can have reallygood boundaries with people, how
we can love them in ways wherewe unleash them to reach their
(06:54):
potential and we're not going tofight with them all about all
the time.
That's the sadness in so manyadult relationships is there's
so many power struggles and somany hard feelings.
Here's the good news Today youcan decide to stop.
Today you can decide to realizethat nobody wins a power
struggle and that there are somereally powerful ways of
(07:18):
influencing people so that theodds go way up that they'll make
great decisions.
That's what we really want tofocus on, I think, is influence
rather than control.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Can you give us an example of a situation financial
independence.
So your kid is 25, can't quiteget his or her act together,
needs money.
You don't want them to behomeless.
What's our approach?
Homeless what's our approach.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
First thing is to ask what do they need in the long
run?
Through this lens, I'm thinkingwhat is going to help them
develop skills and self-respect?
What's going to do that in thelong run, knowing that,
regardless of what I do in theshort term, they might be a
little upset with me.
In fact, they might be prettyupset with me if I do the right
(08:05):
thing.
A young adult comes to me andsays I owe $17,000 on my truck
and you're thinking and it'sokay to do that.
By the way, that's a good skillfrom time to time to look at
your kids and go.
I don't know how to respond tothat.
I'm going to have to give thatsome thought.
One thing I know for sure is Ilove you.
(08:26):
So let's talk in a little whilewhen I'm able to get my wits
about me and I can handle thisreally well.
And that's just called respectand being real.
So don't feel like you have tohave all the answers in the
short term.
Nobody does.
I don't Okay.
But let's say you get backtogether with the kid and the
(08:47):
first step is empathy.
I'm going to give you fivesteps right now.
We're going to get reallypractical friends and you're
going to use these five stepsover and over again with your
adult kids, your young kids,your employees, your boss who
knows?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Does it work with?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
spouses too.
Does anything work yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Yeah.
It's a little more delicate, I'dsay.
But it's such a great questionbecause this is not about
psychological manipulation, thisis not about playing tricks on
people.
It's about a sincererelationship where we are
empowering them to see the greatleaders.
Great parents, great spousesare always thinking how can I
build this other person up sothey don't need me, but they
(09:27):
want to hang out with me.
That's a blessing.
So, anyway, empathy first.
So, oh man, $17,000.
Tell me about that, son.
Well, you know, they saidthey're going to take it if I
don't come up with them.
I can't imagine how hard thatmust be.
And so you're doing your best todemonstrate that you really
care, because we know thatpeople are more likely to listen
(09:49):
to our ideas if they know thatwe truly care about them.
You're holding back.
I'll put it that way.
You're saying I've got toconnect with this kid, this
young adult or this older adultbefore I share any information.
Okay, so lots of empathy.
And then you're ready to moveon to step two.
When they're kind of looking atyou like, is that all you got?
(10:11):
Then ask this question.
This is step two.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
What do you think you're going to do.
I love that.
What do you think you're goingto do?
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, crickets start chirping at this point when you
ask that, because all of asudden, this person is starting
to process oh, this is my thing.
See, what we're really doinghere is handing the problem back
in a loving way, but we're alsosending a nonverbal message
that is so powerful andencouraging, and the message is
(10:42):
I believe in you.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Like you can do it.
You can do it kind of thingYou're capable.
Yeah Right, it's huge.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Empowering them to make their own better decision.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Love and logic is so big.
High expectation messages toour kids, to our adult kids, to
everybody.
We know You're capable.
Okay, what do you think you'regoing to do?
And then they're going to lookat you and probably say, I don't
know, I don't know.
That's why I'm asking you.
They usually don't.
They're not impressed when youask that question a lot of times
(11:13):
, but it's still the right thingto do.
So the third step and I'm goingto try to be a good teacher
First step empathy.
Second step what do you thinkyou're going to do?
Third step is no-transcriptwhat.
(11:47):
And I like to stop here,especially with adults, and say
listen, the most important thingfor me is that I care about you
and I don't want to be bossy, Idon't want to stick my nose
into stuff that isn't mybusiness, but because I love you
, I think I have some ideas thatmight be helpful.
(12:10):
Do you really want to hear them?
Because I need you to tell meif you don't want to hear them
and if the adult says you know,no, I got this, I'm good.
I really don't want to hearwhat you have to say.
Respect that.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
And you've done your job.
They're leaving with the$17,000 debt that you're not
taking any part of.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Thank, you so much.
That is such a great point.
I mean you've done your job.
Your job is to hand the problemback and to show you love them.
Your job is not to solve theproblem.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
And really, I think you can say to yourself I'm off
the hook now I offered.
Most of the time, though,people will change their minds
because they're kind ofdesperate, or they'll say, no,
no, I really do want to hear.
And then you can say, great,and so I just have maybe two or
three ideas.
And again, let's be clear thatI'm not here to tell you what to
(13:01):
do.
Okay, so you'd like to hearthem.
So, some people?
This is step four.
You give them a menu of optionsand don't try to be brilliant
with it.
They don't have to be fantastic, earth-shattering ideas, just a
little menu of options and thenask them how each will work for
(13:22):
them.
I guess that some people decidethat they're going to go and
talk with the financing people,the bank, and see if there's any
other arrangements that can bemade.
What are your thoughts?
How do you think that mightwork for you?
Well, I already tried that.
They don't even care.
All they want is their money,right?
Oh, that's hard.
(13:42):
A little more empathy.
Another thought I have are youstill interested?
See, I'm always checking that.
That's important friends orother people they know who might
(14:07):
be willing to help them out.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Notice, this isn't a great idea by the way I just
broke away from the conversationwith the kid.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Notice, this isn't a great idea.
See, the beauty of not havinggreat ideas to share is it
forces the other person to besmarter.
Sometimes we have such greatideas that the other person
doesn't have to think.
See, love and logic.
People are more than willing tonot be very bright if it'll
help other people be a lotbrighter.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I've never thought about that.
It's an interesting idea.
That's hard to do becauseyou're sitting there saying sell
the.
Thing thing.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I mean, you know exactly what needs to happen,
right, and as a parent, you'rethinking, okay, here's what,
here's the fantasy of what youwant to say, which isn't the
right thing.
Let's be clear don't try thisat home, okay, but but the
fantasy, you know what, what'sin your heart, which is actually
the right answer?
But?
But the wrong tactic is oh, forPete's sake, why did you buy
(15:07):
the thing in the first place andthen you put the bigger rims on
it and you got the stereo?
I mean, I did not raise you tothink that money grows on trees.
Are you listening?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
to me and 95% of us.
I would say no, 100% of us haveall said that at one time in
our lives, and if we haven't,I'm shocked.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I often say that human beings have a part of the
brain called the lecture lobeand it remains dormant until we
become parents.
And then it just activates andit's got all the cliches for
crying out loud.
How many times do I have totell you you don't know the
sacrifices we've made, You'regoing to put your eye out, that
kind of stuff.
We can laugh about it and ifyou mess up, it's okay.
(15:48):
I mean, let's get something onthe table right now.
Our adult kids are responsiblefor their own lives.
They're responsible for theirown happiness.
They're responsible for theirown emotions.
If we play the game in ourhearts of blaming ourselves or
allowing them to do that, we'reallowing all of that to actually
(16:10):
interfere with their ability togrow, because our guilt will
come out in ways that causeenabling codependent behavior.
So we really have to be carefulabout remembering yeah, we did
the best we could.
Now they are responsible fortheir lives.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
What age do you say that?
We've talked to a lot of peoplewhere they say this whole idea
of sometimes it's not till 26.
It used to be 18.
You were an adult.
Nowadays it's been extended.
What do you think about that?
And I also then want to go backto make sure we got all five
and review those.
I want to go back to that.
But when you say they're anadult, they have to take care of
themselves.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
When yeah Well, let's , let's think about it a
different way, and then I'llanswer your question.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
We could never.
Okay.
I'm going to say this loud andclear we can never consistently
work harder on somebody else'slife than they are.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
We can never consistently work harder on
somebody else's life than theyare.
We can never consistently workharder on somebody else's life
than they are, and as parents,we did a lot of that right.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah.
And so now notice the language.
Sometimes we do work harder onother people's lives because
it's the right thing to do.
They're in a crisis situation.
They can't pull themselves out.
We just, in our heart, know weneed to be helicopters in this
situation.
If that's done occasionally,from time to time, when it's
(17:33):
really needed, that's calledbeing a kind, humane, good
person.
When we do it consistently,it's called sabotaging that
other person's life becausethey'll become dependent on it.
That other person's lifebecause they'll become dependent
on it.
So this paradigm here of notworking harder on a consistent
basis informs everything we do.
(17:54):
Let's answer the question whenshould we start backing away?
We should start as soon as theyare about seven years old, the
oldest, where we start backingaway, ideally speaking, allowing
(18:15):
them to own stuff, and we stepback and we hope and pray.
They blow it every day and whenthey do, we say to ourselves oh
, thank goodness, because ofcourse I'm the kind of parent
that doesn't allow mistakes thatare life and death.
We hope and pray.
They make plenty of poordecisions about the small stuff
so that as they're growing, theydevelop a good understanding of
cause and effect about thebigger stuff.
So now let's just say that I'ma parent.
(18:40):
I realize I've owned my kids'lives too much and now they're
not as mature as they should be.
And let's say, this kid is nowan adult.
Okay, realistically, I may haveto be a little bit more
involved, I may have to do moreguidance, but I am going to
(19:00):
implement an action plan where,every single day, I am going to
hand them progressively moreresponsibility over their own
life.
So it's difficult to answer thequestion.
Ideally, by the time they're 16years of age, they ought to be
pretty much running their ownlife.
Now we know that the frontalcortex does not fully develop
(19:20):
until later.
We need to keep our hands onthe steering wheel and be ready
to go.
No, you know that's okay.
You know they need plenty ofsupervision, they need us to be
aware, but as much as possiblethey ought to think that we
aren't Okay.
But let's say, let's say I havea 27 year old kid and they're
(19:42):
pretty irresponsible.
And I look back I think, yeah,I made some mistakes, I did too
much.
Hey, I'm going to put togethera plan.
What are the specific thingsthat this young person can start
doing and taking responsibilityfor and what are some of the
mistakes that I hope they makeright now.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Because now the mistakes are much bigger.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
The consequences are bigger.
They matter more than when theywere seven.
They matter more, but they stillneed to make them.
Right Now, when we think aboutmistakes, we think, oh, what a
horrible thing.
High-functioning people tend tothink of mistakes as oh no, it
would be horrible if my kidsmade mistakes.
No, every single greatentrepreneur.
(20:24):
I just watched a documentary onHonda, the guy who developed
the car company man.
That guy blew it like crazy.
I mean, he made a lot ofmistakes.
All great people make a lot ofmistakes.
In fact, the greater people,the more.
The people who really shapethis world probably made a lot
more mistakes than the rest ofus.
The beauty of a mistake is whenyou make it and then you have
(20:48):
to own it and then you get onthe other side of that mistake
as a result of you owning it andworking through it.
How do you feel about yourself?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Much better.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
I want all kids to go out in the world and think you
know, if I'm going to live free,if I'm going to truly be free
and I'm truly going to reach mypotential, I'm going to make
some mistakes.
I'm going to have to.
Of course, I want to be prettysmart about the ones I make
right.
But I know, though, because ofhistory, that when I make
(21:22):
mistakes, I can handle it, cangrow from the hardship.
A few things I can think ofthat are more important for all
of our kids and our young adultkids, and to have that sense of
security of knowing that, yeah,I'm going to mess up and I can
handle it and I'm going to grow.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
I think that that's one of the most important things
that I have taken away fromLove Logic.
What has been interesting to meis now that my kids are adults
and for the most part theyhandle everything fine.
But there are those moments andit is so much more painful at
least from what I remember somuch more painful now watching
(22:05):
them as adults make thosedecisions and struggle.
When they were kids, my husbandand I were high-fiving and
super excited that they'dscrewed something up or failed
at something.
Now, not so much.
Now it's anxiety causing.
What is that about?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I think that's absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, you're spot on with that.
I could say, having adult kidsmyself and then one who's 17,
who's getting really, reallyclose, okay, yeah, you feel like
, oh, my goodness, now thestakes are higher or whatever,
and it can just be so hard.
And it's so interesting because, from a psychological
(22:45):
standpoint, when our kids becomeolder teenagers and adults,
psychologically speaking, thetextbooks would say, okay, we
should be backing away, okay, weshould be allowing them to have
autonomy, independence, reallybacking away and saying to
(23:06):
ourselves that's what they needdevelopmentally.
But because of our own fear inour hearts, we tend to do the
opposite.
And then, talking about adultchildren sparks fly.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I was going to ask you about that, because now
they're saying 25% of adult kidsare estranged from their
parents.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, it's an absolute tragedy.
So I'm going to say some thingsthat are really hard to do, and
if you talk to my wife, she'lltell you he's probably not that
good at doing that the stuff hetalks about consistently.
So, you know, let's just getthat out too.
I want us to be gentle withourselves and I don't want
anybody watching this thinking,oh, I made so many mistakes, I'm
(23:46):
not capable.
Be gentle with ourselves and Idon't want anybody watching this
thinking, oh, I made so manymistakes, I'm not capable.
Oh, you're capable and you'regoing to make a lot of mistakes,
and that's okay.
You don't have to be perfect.
The tough things that we allknow most of us already know.
I'll just go on down a list ofthings that are tough to really
put into action.
I think number one is the onlyperson that I can control is
(24:06):
myself.
Duh, we know that, but it's sohard to remember it.
The only person that I shouldcontrol is myself.
The world is not changedthrough opinion.
It's changed through example,through opinion, it's changed
through example.
The beauty of all of this isthat when we can work towards
(24:30):
relationship, then our influencegoes up.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Oh, you mean building the relationship with the
person, your influence, okay,okay, lots of deposits.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
And so the whole question is who do we really
want to follow?
See, I'm taking a big chapterout of the leadership book right
now.
Hey, who do we really want tofollow?
Somebody that we love and werespect.
It's not somebody who isconstantly chasing us around
telling us you should do this,don't do that.
Why did you do that, how comeyou did that?
Or bailing us out of all of ourproblems.
(25:07):
It's somebody that we look atand we say that person has a
really healthy life and thatperson really cares about me.
They see the best in me.
And then when we run intosomebody like that, we tend to
internalize their valuessubconsciously.
We do it automatically.
I'd like all the listeners tojust pause.
(25:29):
Let's take a deep breath andthink about who had the biggest
influence on us.
May have been a teacher, parent, coach, etc.
But they were probably veryloving but strong at the same
time, and they had their acttogether.
In terms of your view of it.
They led an honorable life, anddid they tell you to adopt
(25:52):
their values, or did you just doit?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah, you're right, you're absolutely right we've
(26:20):
got to set them free.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
If we can set them free and we can say I love you
and if you want any ideas, ifyou'd like to share your heart
with me, I'm more than happy toshare some ideas with you.
They may be good ones, they maynot be good ones I'll let you
be the judge of that.
But I'm here for you, I careabout you and see there's great
(26:43):
risk in setting our kids free,our adult kids free Great risk,
maybe?
The question all of us have toentertain is where is the risk
higher?
Is the risk higher in settingthem free, still being involved,
but being a consultant, ratherthan a drill sergeant who tells
(27:07):
them what to do, or a rescuerhelicopter that always bails
them out, but setting them freeby being a consultant Is there
greater risk there?
Is there more risk when I tryto direct the course of their
life and end up having majorpower struggles with them?
Where's the greater risk?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Then they're only blaming you.
They don't have to look inward,they don't have to figure
anything out for themselves.
So certainly the greater riskis in not setting them free.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
That's what I think, but you know I'm going to let
the listeners decide about that,because I really want to be a
good model of love and logic.
We throw out what we believe.
I have so much respect forpeople when they share what they
truly believe.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Everything you're saying makes so much sense.
I think that the world haschanged so much that there's so
much pressure on parents ofadult children to be
overconnected with their adultkids.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, it makes so much sense from what I'm seeing
with lots of parents and my ownexperiences.
And, yeah, it does feel like thestakes are high and a lot of
times I see a dynamic happen andI've had it in my own life
where we do a lot of thingslet's say, we do a lot of things
that help our kids beindependent and then something
(28:34):
terrible happens, terrible.
Okay, they become independentand then we're like, oh, they
don't need me anymore, and thenit's really easy for us to throw
up a mess somewhere here andthere, so that there's some
interaction going on and, thetruth be told, it's like I want
(28:55):
to go for quality relationshiprather than constant connection
over hassles and problems, right, and so, yeah, one of the risks
, so to speak, is that when weraise really competent kids, we
might not hear from them quiteas much as maybe some of the
parents who raise kids who can'tfight themselves out of a wet
(29:17):
paper bag, to be honest.
But we don't want that.
We want what's good for them.
That's the gift of love.
The gift of love is settingpeople free.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
You've said that so many times and that's what was
in my head when I said that thegift of love is setting people
free.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, yeah, and setting people free and to live
their life, even if it doesn'tturn out that great.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
That's really hard for a parent to watch that
happen.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
I just said that, and now I'm going to have to try to
live with that in my own life.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
You know I'm going to have to apply that because I
said it.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
But it's really important and I will mention my
book.
It's Raising Mentally StrongKids.
It'll be out in March.
Co-authored it with Dr DanielAmen.
He's a neuroscientist, a brainhealth expert.
Be available through TyndalePublishers.
But you know, my passion isreally about mental strength,
(30:15):
because when people are mentallystrong, they're able to love
other people well, becausethey're not constantly insecure
or constantly trying to controlother people when they don't
need to.
They're secure enough to beable to trust other people's
competency and to put upboundaries, to say hey, I'm more
than happy to spend time withyou when I feel like I'm being
(30:39):
respected, or I'm happy to haveyou live with us to get your
feet back on the ground, as longas I feel like we're getting
along really nicely and I haveto do less housework.
Because I want you to haveself-respect, I want you to know
that you don't need a rescuemission.
(31:01):
This is just a short-termopportunity for you to get
yourself back on the road, so tospeak.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I know one of the chapters in your book is Adult
Children who Act Like Children.
That's the title of the chapter, right?
Okay?
So without giving it all away,why, why is that the title?
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Well, because it happens all the time.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I know, but we need examples.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Well, you know, I need $17,000.
Or they move home and theytreat you.
They act like a belligerent13-year-old.
They roll their eyes, they're25, they're 40 years old and
they're demanding of you.
They're laying around on thecouch, there's beer cans on the
table, they're playing videogames, that kind of stuff, or
(31:49):
they're criticizing every moveyou make or trying to make you
feel guilty and those sorts ofthings.
So those are a lot of thebehaviors that we're talking
about.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
So then immediately we put in to practice the five,
beginning with empathy.
Like, ok, so the kids laying onthe couch playing video games
and they've been trying, quote,unquote, trying to get a job, ok
, so the empathy is it must bereally hard to find work these
days, even though theunemployment right now, I mean
it must be really hard to findwork these days, or what?
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Take us somewhere through that your parents.
Okay, oh, I'm good with it, dad.
Well, the truth of it is is I'mnot.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Oh, you can say that Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Because I'm never going to be good with seeing you
not grow son.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
And you're taking.
You're showing them that you'retaking care of yourself with
that statement.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
And take care of them because, I never, ever and it's
okay to say this to your adultkid I never want to feel like I
am interfering with your abilityto grow and be self-sufficient,
never want to feel that way.
That's why we have this basicrule in the house that I'm never
going to work harder on yourlife than you are.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
But the sad thing is, right now there's a couple
problems.
Number one I feel like I'minterfering with your ability to
mature because I'm making ittoo easy for you to live here.
And number two there's beerstains on the couch.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
That's a problem, and you're nice when you're saying
this.
You're soft-spoken.
All of this comes to youcompletely naturally right now
right, well, right now.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
But if that happened in my own home five minutes from
now, it would be a lot harderfor me, and that's why we
practice this stuff ahead oftime, and we might even get a
life coach or a therapist towork with us on this.
And how do we deliver it sothat we can be proud of the way
we handled it?
Yeah, it's going to take a lotof practice, a lot of
preparation, and that's okay.
(34:00):
That's okay.
And so, son, I'm more thanhappy to help you continue to
live here, as long as I see thatyou're working harder on your
life than I am.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
I am working hard.
You just don't see what I'mdoing when I'm not on the couch.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
And I'm not hard.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
You just don't see what I'm doing when I'm not on
the couch and I'm not done.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Okay, see, that's called.
Not going to get sidetracked bythe arguing.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Gosh, that is good.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So two things, son.
I want to make it simple.
As long as I feel like I'm notinterfering with your growing,
and number two, as long as yourmom and I are really enjoying
having you here, we can talkabout what that looks like, but
this should be enjoyable for us.
If we are feeling stressedbecause you're here and we're
(34:51):
not feeling respected or thehouse isn't being taken care of,
then that's not fun for us.
So just two things growth andthat it's pleasant for us.
Those are two boundaries thatabsolutely have to be in place,
regardless of how old the kid is.
If they come back and live withus.
There are a lot of kids whocome back and live with their
(35:13):
parents adult kids, I should sayand it goes great.
It's not always horrible.
I know people who said I'm soblessed because my son and his
wife moved back in and theyworked hard.
They helped us out with thehousework, they were pleasant.
He was working really hard tofind a job.
Things got worked out.
We had some rough spots, but itwas really positive.
(35:35):
It's not a horrible thing.
In fact, when my mom grew up inGlobeville, Colorado some of
you will know where that is the.
European enclave down in Denverand I think there were like five
generations in the house.
There just has to be reallygood boundaries.
Those are the boundaries we setwith the kid.
The boundaries we set withourselves are just important and
(35:56):
that is that number one.
I'm going to follow through onthose boundaries I set with the
kid.
The boundaries we set withourselves are just important and
that is that number one I'mgoing to.
You know, I'm going to followthrough on those boundaries I
set with a kid.
And number two I'm going toremember that me trying to
dictate their life or controlwhat they decide is a recipe for
disaster.
I only control the things thatare trying to control the things
(36:19):
that affect me directly interms of my well-being.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
You know I want to go back to your conversation with
the son on the couch.
I think at this point you alsohave to really control, because
I could imagine a kid sayingyou've always liked Susan better
than me.
You always think I'm the onethat's been disrespectful.
You've caused this Susan betterthan me.
You always think I'm the onethat's been disrespectful.
You've caused this.
Then, this deep love you havefor this kid, you have to
(36:46):
separate the guilt and the love.
With this logic you're puttingin.
It sounds like, but I couldjust see that well, you're the
one that's caused this.
I'd be doing so much better ifyou treated me the way you
treated Sally.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Let's role play, because you're right on a roll
with this.
Let's pretend that you're thekid and I'll do the best that I
can.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Okay, okay.
I'm sick of you telling me thisstuff.
You made me like this.
You gave Sally so much morethan you gave me, and now I'm
struggling.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
So tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I want to hear more about you, you told me my whole
life I was never as smart as her.
I'm never going to be, as maybehe didn't do it directly, but
those were the messages I got.
I'm never going to be as greatas Sally, so I'm not.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
So you feel like I don't.
I didn't treat you well.
That's what's causing.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
I do.
There's no question about it.
I don't feel it, I know it.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I'm so glad that you shared that with me, son.
I'm really thankful that youshared that with me, and some do
you suppose that changes myexpectations.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
So you do have.
You're getting rid of all theemotion and coming at it with
complete logic.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
There's two skills at least two skills embedded in
that.
First of all, listening,without trying to make any sense
of it.
When somebody's upset, it neverhurts to listen, but don't take
it to heart, it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Don't listen that hard, that's hard.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
It's like the old saying never reason with a drunk
.
The kid is drunk on hurt,they're drunk on emotion.
And you can listen, but youdon't let your heart listen to
it, because once that door getsopened, it's going to be hard
for you to stick with theboundaries that you set.
Okay, don't try to reason,don't try to justify yourself,
(38:30):
because it's not like they'reall of a sudden going to say wow
, I'm so glad you put it thatway.
I was so disgruntled andentitled, but now I'm going to
get my life together.
They don't respond like that.
It's not like a light goes offover their head and they're like
thank you so much for yourwisdom.
So I say to myself listen, butdon't let it into the heart.
(38:53):
And then go right back to thecentral issue that you're trying
to achieve here two boundariesgoing right back, because, the
truth be told, human beings arereally good at playing
distraction.
We're going to start up a sideissue over something and then we
go down that rabbit hole andthe original issue isn't
(39:13):
addressed.
That's one of the most commondynamics known to humankind.
Don't fall for it.
And so, again, this issomething if you're really
hurting over what's going onwith your adult kids.
I do recommend getting with alife coach, expressing these
things, practicing these skills,and not doing this until you
feel like, okay, I can do this,I'm going to be confident with
(39:38):
this and this is really a giftto my kid.
Let's be blunt there may bevery well be a time pretty soon
in this specific scenario wherethe parents say there is no
longer a spot for you in thishome because we're not seeing
(39:58):
you be able to live with thoseboundaries we set so painful.
I don't want to minimize thatand the pain of that.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
I want to make sure we go through those five things,
starting with empathy.
This has been so valuable Ithink I'm going to have to
listen to this over and overagain.
So, anyway, go ahead.
So empathy number one.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, empathy number one.
And we use these anytime a kidhas a problem.
So the kid is not getting a job.
Empathy Number two what do youthink you're going to do?
I don't know.
Number three would you like tohear some ideas?
We ask permission to share ideasfirst.
Would you like to hear somethoughts?
First, would you like to hearsome thoughts?
(40:38):
And then the next step we givea menu of options.
Some people decide to do suchand such.
How would that work for you?
And the options don't have tobe great ones.
I know, with the $17,000 rockissue, it might be well.
Some people decide to ride thebus.
I mean, how would that work?
And you try to be as sincere aspossible.
Now the fifth step work, andyou try to be as sincere as
(41:01):
possible.
Now the fifth step.
Oh, we've been teasing this forquite a while.
Allow them to solve the problemwell, or solve the problem
poorly, or not solve the problemat all, because it is their
problem.
See step five.
It's so tempting when we get tothat point to say, hey, that
second one we talked about isreally a good one.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Do that, don't decide for them If they say to you can
you lend me the money?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Okay, son, that's not an option.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
I know you have it.
Why can't you lend it to me?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
I don't feel comfortable with it, you don't
know.
By the way, it's breaking awayfrom the role play you don't owe
them an explanation.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Okay, got it.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
In fact, the nastier they are about it, the less of
an explanation you owe them.
Don't feel comfortable with it.
Or you could always say I justfeel like it would be a lot
better growth experience if youcould learn how to solve this
problem yourself.
But make it short, very fewwords.
You want the kid to choose thecourse of action, or choose not
(42:08):
to choose, which is againchoosing.
But see if I choose for the kid, will they learn?
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Well, I guess, if they take one of your options,
but they're choosing one of theoptions, yeah, okay, got it.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Now let's say I pick the option.
I make the mistake of pickingthe option and they do it and it
turns out well.
That's sad too, because theyhave to say to themselves well,
my dad or my mom told me to pickthat one.
I want them as much as possibleand this is a takeaway.
Let them own it.
(42:46):
Let them fully own theconsequences of their poor
decisions, but also allow themto own the glorious consequences
of their good decisions.
Ownership happens when they arethe ones that go out and have
to do the struggle and have toultimately decide which option
(43:07):
is best for them.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Okay, before we get to the final takeaways, I have
one question, because I get thisa lot from listeners the person
your adult child selects astheir spouse is really important
, but again, it's their decision.
Is there anything you say as aparent when you just well, I
don't think anyone really knowsit's wrong, but you really
question whether this is a gooddecision or do you just let it
(43:32):
roll?
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Here's my take on it.
From time to time, if I have areally good relationship with my
kids, I can go to them and say,hey, can I share something that
concerns me, as long as I don'ttell you what to do.
I have some concerns aboutlet's just call her Rebecca.
I have some concerns aboutRebecca and if the kid listens
(43:54):
and they're open to somethoughts, you can share
something and of course, it'sshared out of love and love for
Rebecca as well.
I'm just concerned about that.
She seems like she's reallyangry about some things and it
comes out in a lot of ways and Ifeel bad for her and I'm
concerned for you and I don'twant to say too much.
I don't want to be a jerk, soplease tell me if I'm being a
(44:16):
jerk with this.
And, son, I just love you and Iknow you're going to do what's
best for you, okay, and then youhave to back out.
Again the idea is you give theinformation and then you say to
yourself, oh, thank goodness,I'm off the hook Now I just pray
that this is going to work outwell for both of them.
But we got to let it go.
I also believe that that issomething I know, I know.
(44:43):
I know that's something thatyour adult child has to live
themselves.
The less you get involved intrying to be a counselor or
coach in their relationship oranything other than just a
loving parent, I mean, stay outof it, back off and bite your
tongue, right.
(45:04):
Bite your tongue.
Yeah, I love that title.
This could have been a reallyshort interview.
I just say bite your tongue,and then we'd be done.
I know I know we're constantlyasking ourselves are we truly
trusting in our kids' ability tolearn, even if they make poor
decisions?
And are we also rememberingthat I can't control everything
(45:27):
that happens in life and Ishouldn't?
Yep, yeah, Hard medicine toswallow.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Kirsten, do you have any other questions?
I just had to ask about thespouse thing because I probably
get an email a day about that.
Is there anything else you wantto ask before you ask for his
takeaways?
Speaker 3 (45:44):
My question is more on what you're seeing today.
I think that the world haschanged a lot.
I think that sometimes theconsequences of their decisions
at a much younger age it can belife-ending, life-changing.
All of the above.
Are you seeing that play out inreal time?
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Things are high stakes.
There's a lot of things thatreally are high stakes.
We want to keep our thinkingcaps on.
I mean, we want to be thinkingand we want to be evaluating the
things that are coming our wayand asking is this truly a life
and death thing?
Is this something where I needto break my basic rule of not
(46:25):
getting too involved and jump in?
Sometimes we do that.
So please don't stop thinkingjust because maybe I threw some
basic principles up that aretrue most of the time.
So we need to use good commonsense.
We also need to remember andthis is a takeaway, and so lock
(46:46):
this in your mind, write this onyour forehead or on a piece of
paper would be even better wecan never consistently work
harder on somebody else's lifethan they are.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Okay, say that one more time.
So, dr Fay, your two takeaways.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
The first one is we can never consistently work
harder on somebody else's lifethan they are, because when we
work harder than they are, thenthey get accustomed to that and
they stop working hard.
And when we're no longerworking hard on our own lives,
we're not growing and maturing.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Wow, does that apply to husbands and emptying the
dishwasher.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
And honey.
I was going to cook dinnertonight but I thought, oh, that
means there's going to be dishesand I just don't have the
energy to put all those away.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
We need one more good one before we say goodbye.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Okay.
The more words I use whenthings are going wrong, the less
effective I become.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Bite your tongue.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Yeah, the more words I use when things are going
wrong, when there's heavyemotion going on, the more words
I use, the less effective Ibecome.
I save the words for calm times.
I have a little more folksylittle soundbite for that,
because I'm a folksy guy, youknow, but mine is.
If you don't want to mess, sayless.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
If you don't want to mess, say less.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Dr Fay.
This has been such an honor.
Kirsten was so excited aboutthis and I was not as familiar.
You really wrapped so much upin such a short time for us and
I can't tell you how much weappreciate it.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Thank you for allowing me to share my passion,
and all of you listeners, thankyou for taking your time.
I mean time is valuable.
It's something you can't getback, and so thank you for
honoring me and blessing me withyour time.
Speaker 3 (48:44):
Thank you so very much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I want you to know that we will share your book and
everything in all of ourepisode notes.
Thank you, well, that's a wrap.
I don't know about you, kirsten, but that was amazing.
I'm sure it will take a lot ofpractice.
So much of what he said was sovaluable, and I also liked the
idea that he suggested, if youstruggle, get a coach so you can
(49:07):
practice.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Yeah, I thought that was really a great idea.
There were so many things thatI wanted to ask him and then he
would address whatever it wasthat I was writing down to ask,
so that was really fun for us.
I think there was a lot ofcontent there.
I loved these takeaways that wecan never consistently work
harder on someone else's lifethan they are, which is huge.
(49:31):
I say that to my kids all thetime.
It sounds like you're thinkingof this more than they're
thinking of it.
So who's doing the work?
And then the other one the morewords I use, the more
ineffective I become.
So it's that idea like you'rereasoning with a drunk, so to
speak, and you just keep going,and going, and going, and going,
thinking that the one thing yousay is going to change the
(49:51):
trajectory.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
And that's just never how it plays out, kirsten,
you're so right, I think, bothof those I'm going to type up
and put on my bulletin board.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I swear, I am.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Anyway, okay.
Again, thank you to all ourlisteners.
We appreciate your support.
Remember you can buy us avirtual cup of coffee at
biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
Look for the support us button.
$5 is all it takes to let usknow you love the podcast and
want us to continue.
Thank you again to ConnieGorin-Fisher, our audio engineer
.
Want us to continue.
Thank you again to ConnieGorrent-Fisher, our audio
(50:22):
engineer.
And remember, just like CharlesFaye said, sometimes you've got
to bite your tongue.
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