April 18, 2025 • 42 mins
Today we rewind and delve into the much overlooked topic of sibling relationships. We speak with Fern Schumer Chapman author of the book Brothers, Sisters, Strangers. Siblings are the longest relationship we will have in our lives - and our children's.
Whether you're navigating your own sibling estrangement or watching it develop between your children, this conversation offers both validation and practical wisdom for one of life's most painful but least discussed family challenges. It also makes you question: "Do you have a favorite child?"
Chapman shares her personal life story that led her to write this book and highlights a number of key points:
• Sibling relationships can last 80 years, making them our longest connections
• Estrangement often occurs during "perilous moments" like marriage, having children, or parental illness
• Parental favoritism significantly contributes to sibling rifts
• The "dignity model" approach to reconciliation requires genuine listening without challenging each other's stories
• Some relationships are too toxic to repair, especially with narcissism or mental illness involved
• Birth order affects sibling dynamics and relationships
• Estrangement ripples through families as relatives often align with one sibling
• Strong sibling connections are cornerstone of emotional health, according to Harvard's longest study of well-being
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Sibling rejection ripples into many parts of life
and identity.
It profoundly affectsself-esteem, who you are, how
you see yourself, yourfriendships, your social
relationships, your well-being,your ability to trust and then,
of course, many of your familyrelationships.
As people then align themselveswith one or the other sibling,
(00:31):
Hello everyone, welcome to Biteyour Tongue the podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I'm Denise and I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will
join us as we explore the insand outs of building healthy
relationships with our adultchildren Together we'll speak
with experts, share heartfeltstories and get timely advice
addressing topics that mattermost to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when,
(00:58):
to bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of
Bite your Tongue, the podcast.
I'm Denise Gort and I'm herewith my co-host, kirsten
Heckendorf, and today we'retalking about sibling
relationships.
I've heard so much aboutadult-child estrangement but
I've never really heard peopletalking about sibling
estrangement and since weplanned this episode I've heard
(01:23):
it a million times from peopleand I've said well, it's coming
up and it's very foreign to mebecause my sister and I are so
close.
So this whole sibling familyrelationship stuff is very top
of mind for me.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Yeah, I am very fortunate.
My kids all get along for themost part and check in with one
another, but I also know howdifficult it is on them when one
of them is struggling andthey're either not able to help
or they don't know what theright thing to say is and they
may or may not want to tell usabout it, I think it's a myriad
(01:58):
of experiences for everyone andI think we're going to learn a
lot about that from Fern today.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
But before we start I have to do one quick shout out
again biteyourtonguepodcastcom,please think about supporting us
becoming a sustaining member.
I'm not going to say much moreabout it.
Everyone knows, just get on andgive us a few bucks.
So, kirsten, why don't you?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
introduce Fern Absolutely.
Thanks, Denise.
We are thrilled today to havewith us Fern Schumer Chapman.
She has written severalaward-winning books, but her
focus lately has been onbrother-sister relationships.
We're going to talk about hermost recent book, Brothers,
Sisters, Strangers SiblingEstrangement and the Road to
Reconciliation, and the SiblingEstrangement Journal.
(02:42):
She also writes a blog onpsychologytodaycom called
Brothers, Sisters, Strangers,and she co-hosts a podcast by
the same name.
Finally, Fern offers herexpertise and personal
experience by providingone-on-one coaching for those
struggling with difficultsibling relationships.
Welcome, Fern Schumer Chapman.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Thank you, it's great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
We're so glad to have you.
Your interest in siblingrelationships, it sounds like,
began with your own personalexperience with your brother.
Why don't we start by yousharing a little bit about that
with us?
People may have similarjourneys or something they can
relate to to that may havesimilar journeys or something
(03:27):
they can relate to, to that.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
My brother and I didn't have much of a
relationship for many decades,and we would see each other at
funerals and weddingsoccasionally and really stay on
opposite sides of the room.
The reason for this was unclearto me.
We were never particularlyclose as children, but then,
when we started our own lives,we became increasingly distant
and disconnected, like I said,very unclear as to why this
(03:53):
happened, and it haunted me, asit does for many who are
estranged.
My brother had gotten into avery dark place and he did
continue to have limited contactwith my mother, and my mother
left a voicemail one day on myanswering machine and said that
(04:14):
he's in a terrible place and Ineeded to intervene and do
something because she didn'tknow what to do, and so that was
the launch for this entirejourney of reconnecting and
ultimately reconciling.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Wow, what brought you to write the book?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Well, actually I had a conversation with my agent and
she listened carefully and saidoh my gosh.
I suspect this is somethingthat is much more common than
most people recognize, andactually one of the things I've
discovered is it's a kind of metoo movement that the minute you
start to admit that you cannothave a sustained relationship
(04:56):
with a sibling, other peoplestep in and say yeah, me too.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
In your book you talk about your brother being
complete opposites, whichobviously is really common in
siblings.
You also say that the breakbetween you did not really start
until he was a newlywed, likeyou just said, when you guys
were getting busy in your livesand everything.
Do you know now what thetrigger was?
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yes, I do, but I didn't at the time and it was
particularly difficult because Ididn't know.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You list trigger points in your book and I think
in the outline I sent you I evenpulled those out of your book
and I'd like to go over thosebecause it might help people who
are dealing with things notrecognizing what are the trigger
points that usually begin toseparate a strained sibling.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
There are both risk factors and perilous moments.
So a perilous moment is whenthe relationships change.
So, for example, duringadolescence, when one leaves for
college, you have torenegotiate what the
connection's going to be.
Marriage is a big one, becausea lot of times people choose
spouses who do not promoterelations in the original family
(06:06):
, so that can be a perilousmoment.
The birth of a baby, as peoplethen decide to invest in their
own families, their nuclearfamilies, and distance
themselves a little bit fromtheir original family.
Divorce or illness is anotherone.
Helping somebody through adivorce or sickness can be
(06:27):
overwhelming and often create alot of resentment because of the
burden of it.
And then, of course, the mostperilous moment is parental
illness, death and inheritance,and at that point siblings often
engage in a last effort toestablish who has the most power
(06:48):
or love or family loyalty, andconflicts can arise over how to
care for a parent and who'sgoing to pay for the parent and,
of course, how the estate willbe settled and precious
treasures, family treasures willbe divided.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
What strikes me about what you just said is that all
of these things you just listedare life things.
Right, who doesn't go throughat least three or four of those
things at some point?
That's scary.
It just makes it much morecommon.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, these relationships are fragile and
they're competitive and they canbe very difficult, and so
sustaining them requires work.
And these relationships are thelongest in most people's lives
they can last 80 years.
There's a lot of interestingresearch about siblings which is
(07:41):
largely unknown.
Which is largely unknown.
One thing you should recognizeis that siblings have not been a
topic of psychological researchfor decades, and the reason is
that people like Freud didn'tthink it was very important.
In fact, in recent years,siblings have been discovered to
be extremely important, and infact, there are some sibling
(08:05):
therapists.
I have a friend who wrote abook called Sibling Therapy, and
she talks about this idea ofsibling transference.
In other words, you actuallymarry the person who is like
your sibling.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I think that's very true, very interesting.
I want to go back to thetrigger points for one quick
second and then you go off onyour tangent and tell us
everything you want to talkabout Fern.
But I really can get the pointwhere parental illness, the will
inheritance has caused a lot ofangst for a lot of friends.
Is there anything us, asparents of adult children, can
(08:41):
help to have things set in placethat may not cause that kind of
sibling separation during thattime?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
There are a lot of things you can do.
One of the big things is nothave a favored child, because
that creates more competitionand pits one child against the
other.
The other thing that's reallyimportant is how you model
communication skills so thatchildren learn how to navigate
differences, because if youdon't learn those things in the
(09:10):
family, then you're left to yourown devices.
If you don't have those skills,you cannot resolve the
differences.
It's wonderful I hear thisoften that people like you,
denise, have wonderfulrelationships and they
absolutely cannot understand howthis could possibly happen, and
all I have to say is what goodfortune.
There are a lot of risk factorsfor this.
(09:31):
One of the things I didn'tunderstand when I did this book
is that there were actually riskfactors in social science that
identify where things go off therails.
So, for example, family traumais a big one.
My brother and I are the sonand daughter of a Holocaust
refugee.
That kind of trauma for ourmother has intergenerational
(09:58):
consequences and it's reallyimportant to recognize that
family trauma is a huge factorin these estrangements.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
What other risk factors are there?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Okay.
So I was about to talk a littlebit about Harry and William,
and they're really a goodexample of why there is
estrangement.
So we were just talking aboutfamily trauma.
Those boys had horrific familytrauma and, as you know, they
are estranged Now.
Obviously one does notnecessarily follow the other and
I could never assess all that,but I do think it's interesting
(10:33):
that they have had that.
But they also have a lot ofother issues.
So, for example, parentalfavoritism.
The monarchy presents theultimate in favoritism, as
William will become king andHarry will always be relegated
to a supporting role.
So there's that there Poorcommunication skills.
(10:54):
By the way, the monarchy isnotoriously bad at resolving
personal problems, and so thebrothers probably never learned
how to negotiate theirdifferences.
Family values, judgments andchoices.
This is a really interestingone.
When somebody marries someoneoutside the family identities,
(11:15):
the family often doesn'ttolerate that very well, and
actually, if you think about it,harry married somebody way
outside the family identity andthe family has not tolerated
that very well at all.
Then you get into other issueslike political differences and
I've talked about that a lotrecently Addiction and mental
(11:38):
health issues.
This is a very big one.
Money is another big issue withone child gets more money than
the other.
And then another reallyinteresting point is when
there's a narcissist in thefamily, because who would do
this?
Somebody who lacks empathy, andoftentimes you get a narcissist
(12:02):
, or you get somebody who mightbe autistic.
Oftentimes you get a narcissistor you get somebody who might
be autistic, and these factorscan divide siblings.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
How do you bring it back together?
There could be a lot oflisteners who are estranged from
their siblings.
In fact, I just got an emailfrom a listener that said she
said she raised two wonderfuldaughters, they grew up together
and now they don't speak toeach other, so your mother
played a big role.
I felt really bad for yourmother when I was reading this
(12:31):
and she would call you up forhelp and all this sort of thing.
What kinds of roles can ourgeneration play?
Let's start with our own adultchildren and then let's go to
our personal siblings.
So with our adult children.
If we see them becomingestranged from their siblings
right now or, like this womansaid, her daughters don't talk
at all what role can we play?
(12:52):
Anything?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I don't think there's a lot you can do.
I hate to say it.
My mother put a lot of pressureon both of us and it just
turned into more resentmenttowards her.
And then she would make choices, as you know, to go to my
brother's house for a holidayand I wouldn't be invited and I
would resent that it's a no win.
And she would argued as youknow from the book.
(13:15):
She said well, you know, Idon't want to lose contact with
my grandchildren.
I'll take the crumbs I get, soyou can see how this builds a
lot of resentment.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, I listened to this and when I read it I want
to say, if that happened, Iguess maybe I'm just a real
communicator.
If that happened, I'd say I'dcall my brother and I'd say
listen, mom's going to yourhouse for Christmas.
We don't even have to eat, butwe all want to be together.
Can I come over just to giveMom a hug and say Merry
Christmas or Happy Hanukkah,whatever it was?
I feel like I don't know that Icould let any of that go.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
What if your sister-in-law doesn't want you
there and makes you feel likeyou are an unwelcome?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
visitor.
Yeah, boy, that's okay.
Now you're adding another levelto it and there's no
communicating with your brother.
Why doesn't Sally like me?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
No, I mean, maybe she's made that decision and
she's telling him that it's notthat I don't like them, they
don't like me.
How do you argue with thesenarratives, so you?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
ended up coming together with your brother.
Can you take us through thejourney?
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, I should say a couple of things before I do
those.
Some relationships are simplytoo toxic to repair.
Some have violence, some haveabuse, and in those cases you
have to protect yourself If youdecide that you do want to
repair the relationship, youhave to really sit down and ask
yourself some hard questionsLike why is this relationship
(14:45):
important to me, and not to myfamily, but just to me?
Does my family member want toresume the relationship?
You can have all the goodwillin the world, but if your
partner doesn't have any desireto reconnect, it's not going to
go anywhere.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
You mean your sibling partner, not your partner
partner.
Sorry, your sibling, okay.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Can I set aside the anger and pain and resentment
that led to the break in thefirst place and change our
pattern of relating?
Do I want to resume therelationship if I discover that
neither of us has changed?
Do I have the time and energyand emotional resilience and
support of other loved ones toreconcile and rebuild the
(15:24):
relationship?
And finally, am I gonnacompromise too much of myself if
I try to sustain therelationship with this sibling?
So those are sort of thestarting point for all of this.
If you decide you're going to goforward with it, you have to
sit down together, face to face,and, by the way, this
particular model is based onwhat's called the dignity model
(15:46):
and it's used with parties in agenocide warring parties in a
genocide.
You have to listen withoutinterrupting and without
challenging each other's stories.
The one goal is to seekunderstanding.
Experts agree thatreconciliation is almost
impossible without genuinelistening.
Reconciliation is almostimpossible without genuine
(16:06):
listening.
You have to acknowledge withempathy the other person's hurt,
anger or alienation, give themthe benefit of the doubt and
assume that they have sincere,trustworthy intentions.
And when each party acceptsboth parties' experiences, then
neither one feels devalued.
You have to stress and act onyour willingness and desire and
(16:29):
hope to create a bond andfinally, and this is the hardest
part, you have to let go of theanger.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
It's not that much different than we've talked to
people on a strange relationshipwith their children, but it's
usually the adult that has to dothe things that you just said
Listen, not criticize.
Accept what they've done wrongor even if they don't think they
have, don't argue it if youwant to create the bond again.
But you wonder how long thatbond's going to last, because
(16:56):
everyone goes back to being whothey were.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, a lot of these relationships lapse back into
estrangement.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Before you tell us your journey, I want to go back
to the favorite child.
Do you think everyone has afavorite child?
What creates that whole idea ofa favorite child number one,
and does birth order haveanything to do with it?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Well, the studies show that most mothers do have a
favorite child.
I don't know whether birthorder has anything to do with it
or not, but it definitely getscommunicated, and a lot of times
it's because somebody is morelike you or you see yourself in
one of your children.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, I think I've had favorite children, but they
change.
You know what I mean.
There's times I like one betterthan the other and I'm pretty
honest with them.
You know, right now you're noton the top of my list.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Right, that's exactly what I say.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, yeah, I think the key is actually not to show
any favoritism and try toacknowledge the uniqueness of
every child.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
What are ways you show favoritism and don't show
favoritism?
What you just said was thatyou're not on the top of my list
, yeah, but I'm saying that sortof tongue in cheek a little bit
.
But how a parent showfavoritism like giving one child
a down payment for the houseand not giving the other child
or things like that.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, money's a very big issue in families.
It's a very much a statement oflove, favoring one child over
the other in a will, giving themprecious treasures, slipping
them things without the otherkid knowing.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Well, these are all the things to avoid.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, all right, let's go to your journey, unless
there's more backdrop you wantus to hear about.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
You know, I would like to say a couple of quick
things in general.
So people think, well, youdon't talk to your brother,
that's too bad, but it's not theworst thing in the world, and
actually I would argue it's somuch more than not just talking
to my brother.
Sibling rejection ripples intomany parts of life and identity.
It profoundly affectsself-esteem, who you are, how
(18:57):
you see yourself, yourfriendships, your social
relationships, your well-being,your ability to trust and then,
of course, many of your familyrelationships as people then
align themselves with one or theother sibling.
So I think that's a reallyimportant point to recognize
that we're not just talkingabout not talking to one sibling
(19:18):
.
We're talking about how thisaffects the well-being of an
individual and what happens isit's a form of grief and in many
ways I call it mourning theliving, because you walk around
ruminating about this one personwho is a part of your shared
history and wants nothing to dowith you.
(19:39):
And it's not like death whichis final.
There's somebody walking theearth who you have an
expectation you'll have arelationship with that's
lifelong, and they want nothingto do with you.
So it's a profound rejection.
Brothers and sisters are ourfirst playmates and they instill
in each of us certain socialqualities, so they include
(20:01):
tolerance and generosity andloyalty.
It's kind of a blueprint foryour friendships and your
relationships with colleaguesand lovers.
And that's where that siblingtransference comes in that we
were talking about earlier.
There's a lot of research thatshows that a strong sibling
connection is a cornerstone ofemotional health.
(20:24):
The longest study of well-being, which was done by the Harvard
Study of Adult Development it'sbeen underway since 1938, found
that a close siblingrelationship during the college
years provided a reliableindicator for emotional health
later in years.
There are a lot of otherstudies that show that
adolescents who perceived thattheir siblings validated them
(20:47):
reported higher levels ofself-esteem.
They had better academicperformances, they had improved
chances of being well-adjustedas they get older, less
loneliness, lower levels ofdepression and a greater
satisfaction later in life.
And this is all the variousstudies that have been done in
the last couple of decades.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Boy, you'd never think that sibling relationships
place that much into your life.
But as you say that I get it, Imean that is a huge rejection.
So you're evaluating yourselftoo.
What is wrong with me that mybrother or sister wants nothing
to do with me?
I could go into a very deephole over something like that,
and it could even be a cousintoo that you were very close to,
(21:29):
and suddenly they want nothingto do with you.
And then I hear you say it'sthe whole family.
So maybe some holidays AuntSally invites everybody else but
you, because brother and hiswife or sister and her husband
are going, so you're completelyleft out.
Then Aunt Betty invites you, sothe whole family becomes
somewhat estranged.
It's very fractured.
(21:50):
Fractured is the word.
Right, Right, Okay.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Well, and then our children?
Right, I mean, it's just assimple as pulling it back to our
children.
Our adult children then don'thave those relationships with
their cousins and it hasn't beenmodeled for them.
It's very complicated.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
It's very complicated and you remind me of a story
that I included in the book,where this woman told me that
her son was on a train in NewYork City and he took his phone
and took a photograph of the guyhe was sitting next to on the
train and, he said, sent it tohis mom.
He said is this uncle Mike?
(22:31):
Of course this was his father'sbrother, but they hadn't had
any contact in 20 years.
You're absolutely right thatthis affects generations to come
and it affects your knowledgeof medical issues and it affects
family stories.
So it's really really deeptogether.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Social media this must make it even worse, because
then on a holiday, everyoneelse is having a great time and
every sibling's in matchingpajamas, and you weren't invited
to the party.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
That's exactly right.
And actually another reallyhard holiday for strange
siblings is National SiblingsDay, because on social media
everybody puts up their-.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Oh puts a picture of their brother or sister.
That's right.
Social media Everybody puts uptheir oh puts a picture of their
brother or sister.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
And I actually was just invited to National
Siblings event in New York tocelebrate the day and I'm like
are you sure you want me?
Because I'm actually theopposite, I've had the
estrangement for so many decades.
And she said, no, we want youto speak because we want to
understand these relationshipsbetter.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
That makes sense.
There is a point in your bookwhere you talk about what is
estrangement.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
A friend of mine wrote me a letter after he saw
that I was solicitingrespondents to my survey and he
said I see my brother atweddings and funerals.
Am I estranged?
Funerals Am I estranged?
(24:12):
And if you go by the typicaldefinition, yeah, it's a process
where at least one familymember voluntarily or
intentionally distancesthemselves from another family
member because of an ongoingperceived negative relationship.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Perceived is the key word there.
I've certainly had experienceswith my siblings where my kids
were quite a bit older than mysisters, and then I have a
brother whose kids are way olderthan my kids and during those
really busy, crazy times wereally didn't speak as often.
We've continued to speakthroughout, but there were those
(24:47):
gaps in time where it didn't.
I didn't even think about it.
To be perfectly honest, I don'tfeel guilty about it, but what
I do like is that when themoments arrived, we were all
together as if we hadn't skippeda beat, almost like your old
best friend like your old bestfriend.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Well, imagine if you have a conflicted relationship
with those siblings and then youhave to negotiate care for your
elderly parent, the inheritanceand settling of the will and
dividing the precious familytreasures.
Everything reemerges.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I tell you what my mother did, and I still think
it's the smartest thing, andI've told my kids the same thing
what my mother did, and I stillthink it's the smartest thing,
and I've told my kids the samething.
She said put two numbers.
There were only two of us.
Each of you pick a number.
Whoever's first pick somethingfirst.
Then it goes back and forth One, two, one, two.
That's a solution.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I mean, I think that's a fine solution.
It's just all the issues.
It doesn't always work.
Yeah, all the issues that weredivided, you reemerge.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I did have in here the toll it takes.
I think.
One person said estrangement islike a bad tooth that's always
pulsating with pain, and someoneelse said sibling estrangement
is a wound that never heals.
After 25 years of no contactwith my sister, I'm still
waiting for the hurting to stop.
Death is final explains one.
Maybe we've talked about this.
(26:10):
But the toll it takes on you Isthere anything else you want to
add to that?
Because I don't think alllisteners will understand it
unless they hear it from you.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yeah, I actually can quote a study which I think
illustrates the point Exclusioncan cause pain that cuts deeper
and lasts longer than a physicalinjury, according to Dr Kipling
William and he's adistinguished professor of
psychological sciences at Purdueand he's noted for his unique
(26:40):
studies on ostracism he saysthat when someone's shunned,
even by a stranger, even if onlybriefly, he has found that he
or she experiences a strongharmful reaction activating the
same areas of the brain thatregister physical pain.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Wow, We've really got to get to helping people
navigate back to connection ifthey want it.
Like you set up all thescenarios when they shouldn't,
but possibly someone sittinghere saying I really would love
to get in touch with my sisteragain.
We were so close at one time.
What's going on here?
What are the steps someoneshould take, or what did you do?
(27:19):
That's why I was wanting tohear your story.
Maybe it would be helpful,because yours took several steps
.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
It took a year to rebuild the relationship in the
wake of that kind of betrayaland I didn't feel like I could
trust him, and so much of thememoir portion of the book is
portraying this feeling that.
Is he trustworthy?
Am I safe to get involved withhim again?
Is he trustworthy, am I safe toget involved with him again
(27:44):
After all these years where hewanted nothing to do with me?
I talked a little bit aboutrumination earlier, but I would
wake up every day and go whatdid I do?
How can I fix this?
Why did this happen?
A lot of self-blame, you wouldask me if I knew the reason.
And the irony of my story isthat it was never about me.
(28:06):
He was an alcoholic, he wasdrinking, his life was blurry
and blotted out.
He wasn't even aware sometimesof what he was doing and how it
was affecting anyone else.
And so all these years ofblaming myself and it had
nothing to do with me.
The other piece of it as to whywe were estranged is that in
(28:29):
some ways, I reminded him of myfather and he had a very
difficult relationship with ourfather.
I can't control that.
That had nothing to do with meeither.
It wasn't something I did.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
How did that make you feel when you realized that?
I think that would be sofreeing in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
It's freeing and trapping at the same time.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
How about your kids when they were growing up?
I saw something recently wherea little kid said why aren't we
in touch with grandma?
So would your kids say uncleso-and-so from dad's family's
over here?
Where's uncle John or whatever?
And how did you explain that tothem?
Speaker 1 (29:07):
It's not easy.
I mean, what do you say tochildren?
They don't understand it.
I actually had thisconversation with my
granddaughter recently, becauseit's not so.
I might have repaired myrelationship with my brother,
but my kids have no relationshipwith him because they weren't
raised with him.
And so my granddaughter saidyou have a brother, and I said
yes, and she said how come I'venever met him?
(29:29):
Well, that's complicated.
And does your granddaughterhave a sibling?
She does.
She's only five.
She has a little three-year-oldsister, but this is all very
strange to her.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
That's what I was going to say, because she's
being brought up with thisimpression that this is the most
important person in my life,and so now she's hearing that
her adult grandmother has abrother that she's in no contact
with.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Where are you now in this journey, because I'm
guessing that it's been reallycontinuous.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
It has been continuous but, I have to say,
not without hitches.
Oh, I'm sure there have been alot of arguments and we have
worked through most of them.
These relationships wax andwane, just like any other, but
(30:22):
it's been valuable and cherished, because I only have one
brother and we have had theopportunity to share our
histories and for years, decades, I felt like I had nobody to
corroborate my memories.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Well, let me just tell you my sister and I, we
both grew up in a differenthouse.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
My kids will say the same thing.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, I have found that to be true in our
reconciliation.
His memories are very differentfrom mine.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
I think that's pretty common yeah, estranged or not
estranged, yeah it took a yearand we did a lot of activities
together.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
We had a lot of conversations and that's what
I've portrayed in the book howwe actually rebuilt this
relationship in the wake of this.
But the book also capturesother voices and other people's
stories, and then also thesocial science behind
estrangement which, like I said,when I started all this I
(31:12):
didn't even realize there wassocial science behind
estrangement.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Did you involve your brother in your family?
Would he ever come once youstarted chatting?
Would he come to a familydinner?
Did he meet your children, yourhusband?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, we had some connection but nothing ever
really took in the way that Iwould have hoped.
The cousins never grafted andit was just too late To build
these relationships.
There's a window in childhood.
If you miss that window, it'svery hard to reconnect or
rebuild it.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
How about geographical distance?
Are there any studies onestrangement?
Is it less often when thesiblings live in the same town,
or more often?
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I don't know that there's any specific research on
that, but what there is is thatpeople sometimes use physical
distance to gain the separationthey need in the family.
There are lots of differenttypes of estrangements.
You can have a physicaldistance, you can have a limited
relationship where you don'treally share your emotional
(32:16):
experiences, or you can have acomplete no contact and, like I
said earlier, a lot of people gono contact because they have to
protect themselves All right.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
I think we need to hear your steps through this
year and anything that could behelpful to our listeners.
If they're in a situation wherethey do want to reconnect and
it's safe to reconnect, whatsteps would you advise people to
take?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I went through the model the sit down together face
to face.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
But how do you reach out?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
I remember at one point I thought he called you
for lunch.
The lunch was a flop.
And then my mother left thatvoicemail and begged me to
intervene.
I called him, discharging whatI thought was my obligation and
hoping he'd never call me back.
Just a few minutes later he did.
He needed a lot of help andtreatment and it's very hard to
abandon a brother or sister whenthey're down like that.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Okay.
So when you make this phonecall maybe now it's a text.
What would be the way toapproach that in an initial
phone call?
Hi John, it's been a long time.
I'd love to reconnect if you'reinterested.
Or do you say that I maybe havedone some things, but I
apologize for anything I've donethat's been hurtful to you and
I would love to start over, orhow would you approach that?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I think there are a lot of ways to do it and it does
depend on what caused thedivide.
One possibility and my brotherand I did do this is to work
with a counselor and see if youcan have somebody mediate some
of the differences.
That helps someone.
There has to be goodwill onboth sides.
There has to be the desire onboth sides.
(33:52):
I think what I would do if Iwere in this situation is to say
that I do have the desire, doyou?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Right, and then they say, no, you have to move on.
Or let me know if you ever do,I'm open to reuniting.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
I miss you.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I love you, I miss you.
Yeah, do you think you everwould have done it without your
mother's prodding?
No, I was done.
I had been hurt too much andyou find that across the board.
Can you share any other stories?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Because you have a lot of stories in your book that
might be helpful or that'ssimilar to people could relate
to.
Actually, since the book, I'vebeen contacted by many people
who are estranged and lookingfor coaching.
So I have ended up in this veryunique position of having done
so much research and having thislived experience that I can
guide a little bit through thesedifficult relationships.
Now, again, you have to assesswhat you want to do, because
(34:53):
some of them are way too toxic,and one thing we haven't talked
enough about is that when youhave somebody who's either
mentally ill or narcissistic inthe family, you are pretty
hamstrung as far as what you cando, because there are certain
patterns of behavior that arenot conducive to healthy
(35:14):
relationships.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
How do you identify narcissism?
Because everyone has adifferent definition, it seems
to me.
So how do you identify it?
Speaker 1 (35:22):
There are certainly many red flags, and my favorite
person is Dr Romney, who has awhole series on YouTube on
narcissism.
But there are several differenttypes of narcissists and
sometimes it's not so evidentthat somebody is narcissistic.
But even if they're notnarcissistic, if they're
completely self-absorbed, buteven if they're not narcissistic
(35:45):
if they're completelyself-absorbed.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, I mean that I get self-absorbed, but I know
the word narcissism andnarcissist are used a lot in a
lot of different situations andI never can figure out is it
pompousness, is it egotism or isit narcissism?
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Right or a lack of empathy, but I think what I'm
talking about here is if therelationship is transactional,
which is very narcissistic,you're going to have a very
difficult time getting yourneeds met in it and oftentimes I
would be reluctant to say thatsomebody is specifically
narcissistic.
But certainly when you seethese patterns of
(36:18):
self-absorption andtransactional behavior and
arrogance and lack of empathy, Ithink you're probably looking
at some of that.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
All this seems so hard to me because you could be
the one that's the narcissistand you don't even know it.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, these relationships are very
complicated and need to discussour own narrative.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Well, and you brought up the mental illness, but also
the alcoholism, drug abuse, anyof those scenarios, other
trauma that you're unaware?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
of.
We had a conversation with CarlPillemer, who wrote a book on
estrangement, and he said heinterviewed so many people that
were on their deathbed and noone said I wanted more money, I
wish I had a better job, I wishI had a bigger house.
Everyone wished they would havereconciled with someone that
they were estranged from.
So that impact just carries toyour deathbed, I guess.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Right and there's a momentum to these things and
it's very hard to change thetrajectory.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Do you have any advice on how people help
themselves through it?
You can't have this sore toothpulsating with pain your whole
life.
Is there any self-care that youadvise that can help someone
through this?
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I think the big piece is you don't let your sibling
define who you are and theestrangement define who you are.
Define who you are.
You have to know yourself andsurround yourself with chosen
family who value you and respectyou, and make those people
replacements for what you'velost.
(37:54):
That makes sense.
It is a really, really painful,difficult road and nobody wants
to talk about it.
It's terribly stigmatized.
As I was saying, it's like a MeToo movement.
People feel shame.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
It's the same with child and adult child
estrangement.
No one wants to say I'mestranged from my child because
maybe they're afraid it reflectson them.
What's wrong with you that youdon't get along with your
brother?
What's wrong with you that youdon't get along with your kid?
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Right.
I always say that if I told youthat I'm divorced, you probably
wouldn't blink.
If I say I can't get along withmy mother, you'd probably roll
your eyes in agreement.
But when I say I can't getalong with my brother, it calls
a lot of things into question.
What kind of companion wouldyou be?
Are you that kind of thing?
Speaker 2 (38:44):
okay, so we're going to wrap up, but we always ask
our guests to leave us with twoor three takeaways that you want
to really make sure ourlisteners take away from this
episode.
What would those be?
Speaker 1 (38:55):
the idea that estrangement involves mourning
the living and that it ripplesthrough many parts of life and
identity.
So that's number one, thatsiblings are far more important
in terms of well-being than mostof us recognize.
The third one is that there isactually social science and
(39:19):
research in this field ofestrangement and that there are
risk factors and perilousturning points.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
And I'm going to add one more that you said, because
I think it relates to ourlisteners don't have a favorite
child.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, children pick up slights everywhere, so you
have to be as extra sensitive.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Well, thank you so much for joining us.
This was really veryenlightening.
I think, yeah, well, thank youso much for joining us.
This was really veryenlightening.
I think none of us really we'vetalked about adult child and
parent estrangement, but theimpact of the sibling
estrangement is pretty impactfulto listen to.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Thank you and thanks for giving it attention.
I think the only way to reducethe stigma is for more people to
become aware and admit to it.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Yeah, that the truth is.
So many of these issues, okay.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
So thank you so much.
Thank you.
Well, that's a wrap.
Thank you so much to Fern.
That was interesting to me, notas different, as we've said, as
estrangement from an adultchild, but I think what I gained
most of it out of it.
As parents of adult children,we need to be very careful how
(40:31):
we treat each of them equally.
Carl Pillemer said they did aresearch study and 65 or 70% of
parents have favored children.
So you're setting the stage forsome estrangement for your kids
in the future.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
So hold on to that Right, right, yeah, no, I think
we definitely need to be morecareful, setting the stage for
some estrangement for your kidsin the future.
So hold on to that.
Right, right, yeah.
No, I think we definitely needto be more careful.
That was a great episode.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Thanks so much to everyone once again for
listening.
Again, connie Gorn-Fisher, ouraudio engineer, three cheers for
you.
Remember to go to our website,biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
As little as $5 will keep usgoing.
But even more importantly, wereally want your ideas and
(41:11):
thoughts.
What topics do you want us tocover?
We need to open the doors tosome new ideas.
Email usbiteyourtonguepodcastcom On our
website.
Now you can actually give us avoicemail.
Just send us a voicemail.
Talk to us about what's goingon and we'll see what we can do
to explore it.
Everything's anonymous.
Just write to us or talk to usfrom our website.
Have a great day and remember.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.
Thank, you.
Sibling rejection ripples into many parts of life
and identity.
It profoundly affectsself-esteem, who you are, how
you see yourself, yourfriendships, your social
relationships, your well-being,your ability to trust and then,
of course, many of your familyrelationships.
As people then align themselveswith one or the other sibling,
(00:31):
Hello everyone, welcome to Biteyour Tongue the podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I'm Denise and I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will
join us as we explore the insand outs of building healthy
relationships with our adultchildren Together we'll speak
with experts, share heartfeltstories and get timely advice
addressing topics that mattermost to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when,
(00:58):
to bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of
Bite your Tongue, the podcast.
I'm Denise Gort and I'm herewith my co-host, kirsten
Heckendorf, and today we'retalking about sibling
relationships.
I've heard so much aboutadult-child estrangement but
I've never really heard peopletalking about sibling
estrangement and since weplanned this episode I've heard
(01:23):
it a million times from peopleand I've said well, it's coming
up and it's very foreign to mebecause my sister and I are so
close.
So this whole sibling familyrelationship stuff is very top
of mind for me.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Yeah, I am very fortunate.
My kids all get along for themost part and check in with one
another, but I also know howdifficult it is on them when one
of them is struggling andthey're either not able to help
or they don't know what theright thing to say is and they
may or may not want to tell usabout it, I think it's a myriad
(01:58):
of experiences for everyone andI think we're going to learn a
lot about that from Fern today.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
But before we start I have to do one quick shout out
again biteyourtonguepodcastcom,please think about supporting us
becoming a sustaining member.
I'm not going to say much moreabout it.
Everyone knows, just get on andgive us a few bucks.
So, kirsten, why don't you?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
introduce Fern Absolutely.
Thanks, Denise.
We are thrilled today to havewith us Fern Schumer Chapman.
She has written severalaward-winning books, but her
focus lately has been onbrother-sister relationships.
We're going to talk about hermost recent book, Brothers,
Sisters, Strangers SiblingEstrangement and the Road to
Reconciliation, and the SiblingEstrangement Journal.
(02:42):
She also writes a blog onpsychologytodaycom called
Brothers, Sisters, Strangers,and she co-hosts a podcast by
the same name.
Finally, Fern offers herexpertise and personal
experience by providingone-on-one coaching for those
struggling with difficultsibling relationships.
Welcome, Fern Schumer Chapman.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Thank you, it's great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
We're so glad to have you.
Your interest in siblingrelationships, it sounds like,
began with your own personalexperience with your brother.
Why don't we start by yousharing a little bit about that
with us?
People may have similarjourneys or something they can
relate to to that may havesimilar journeys or something
(03:27):
they can relate to, to that.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
My brother and I didn't have much of a
relationship for many decades,and we would see each other at
funerals and weddingsoccasionally and really stay on
opposite sides of the room.
The reason for this was unclearto me.
We were never particularlyclose as children, but then,
when we started our own lives,we became increasingly distant
and disconnected, like I said,very unclear as to why this
(03:53):
happened, and it haunted me, asit does for many who are
estranged.
My brother had gotten into avery dark place and he did
continue to have limited contactwith my mother, and my mother
left a voicemail one day on myanswering machine and said that
(04:14):
he's in a terrible place and Ineeded to intervene and do
something because she didn'tknow what to do, and so that was
the launch for this entirejourney of reconnecting and
ultimately reconciling.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Wow, what brought you to write the book?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Well, actually I had a conversation with my agent and
she listened carefully and saidoh my gosh.
I suspect this is somethingthat is much more common than
most people recognize, andactually one of the things I've
discovered is it's a kind of metoo movement that the minute you
start to admit that you cannothave a sustained relationship
(04:56):
with a sibling, other peoplestep in and say yeah, me too.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
In your book you talk about your brother being
complete opposites, whichobviously is really common in
siblings.
You also say that the breakbetween you did not really start
until he was a newlywed, likeyou just said, when you guys
were getting busy in your livesand everything.
Do you know now what thetrigger was?
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yes, I do, but I didn't at the time and it was
particularly difficult because Ididn't know.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You list trigger points in your book and I think
in the outline I sent you I evenpulled those out of your book
and I'd like to go over thosebecause it might help people who
are dealing with things notrecognizing what are the trigger
points that usually begin toseparate a strained sibling.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
There are both risk factors and perilous moments.
So a perilous moment is whenthe relationships change.
So, for example, duringadolescence, when one leaves for
college, you have torenegotiate what the
connection's going to be.
Marriage is a big one, becausea lot of times people choose
spouses who do not promoterelations in the original family
(06:06):
, so that can be a perilousmoment.
The birth of a baby, as peoplethen decide to invest in their
own families, their nuclearfamilies, and distance
themselves a little bit fromtheir original family.
Divorce or illness is anotherone.
Helping somebody through adivorce or sickness can be
(06:27):
overwhelming and often create alot of resentment because of the
burden of it.
And then, of course, the mostperilous moment is parental
illness, death and inheritance,and at that point siblings often
engage in a last effort toestablish who has the most power
(06:48):
or love or family loyalty, andconflicts can arise over how to
care for a parent and who'sgoing to pay for the parent and,
of course, how the estate willbe settled and precious
treasures, family treasures willbe divided.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
What strikes me about what you just said is that all
of these things you just listedare life things.
Right, who doesn't go throughat least three or four of those
things at some point?
That's scary.
It just makes it much morecommon.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, these relationships are fragile and
they're competitive and they canbe very difficult, and so
sustaining them requires work.
And these relationships are thelongest in most people's lives
they can last 80 years.
There's a lot of interestingresearch about siblings which is
(07:41):
largely unknown.
Which is largely unknown.
One thing you should recognizeis that siblings have not been a
topic of psychological researchfor decades, and the reason is
that people like Freud didn'tthink it was very important.
In fact, in recent years,siblings have been discovered to
be extremely important, and infact, there are some sibling
(08:05):
therapists.
I have a friend who wrote abook called Sibling Therapy, and
she talks about this idea ofsibling transference.
In other words, you actuallymarry the person who is like
your sibling.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I think that's very true, very interesting.
I want to go back to thetrigger points for one quick
second and then you go off onyour tangent and tell us
everything you want to talkabout Fern.
But I really can get the pointwhere parental illness, the will
inheritance has caused a lot ofangst for a lot of friends.
Is there anything us, asparents of adult children, can
(08:41):
help to have things set in placethat may not cause that kind of
sibling separation during thattime?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
There are a lot of things you can do.
One of the big things is nothave a favored child, because
that creates more competitionand pits one child against the
other.
The other thing that's reallyimportant is how you model
communication skills so thatchildren learn how to navigate
differences, because if youdon't learn those things in the
(09:10):
family, then you're left to yourown devices.
If you don't have those skills,you cannot resolve the
differences.
It's wonderful I hear thisoften that people like you,
denise, have wonderfulrelationships and they
absolutely cannot understand howthis could possibly happen, and
all I have to say is what goodfortune.
There are a lot of risk factorsfor this.
(09:31):
One of the things I didn'tunderstand when I did this book
is that there were actually riskfactors in social science that
identify where things go off therails.
So, for example, family traumais a big one.
My brother and I are the sonand daughter of a Holocaust
refugee.
That kind of trauma for ourmother has intergenerational
(09:58):
consequences and it's reallyimportant to recognize that
family trauma is a huge factorin these estrangements.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
What other risk factors are there?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Okay.
So I was about to talk a littlebit about Harry and William,
and they're really a goodexample of why there is
estrangement.
So we were just talking aboutfamily trauma.
Those boys had horrific familytrauma and, as you know, they
are estranged Now.
Obviously one does notnecessarily follow the other and
I could never assess all that,but I do think it's interesting
(10:33):
that they have had that.
But they also have a lot ofother issues.
So, for example, parentalfavoritism.
The monarchy presents theultimate in favoritism, as
William will become king andHarry will always be relegated
to a supporting role.
So there's that there Poorcommunication skills.
(10:54):
By the way, the monarchy isnotoriously bad at resolving
personal problems, and so thebrothers probably never learned
how to negotiate theirdifferences.
Family values, judgments andchoices.
This is a really interestingone.
When somebody marries someoneoutside the family identities,
(11:15):
the family often doesn'ttolerate that very well, and
actually, if you think about it,harry married somebody way
outside the family identity andthe family has not tolerated
that very well at all.
Then you get into other issueslike political differences and
I've talked about that a lotrecently Addiction and mental
(11:38):
health issues.
This is a very big one.
Money is another big issue withone child gets more money than
the other.
And then another reallyinteresting point is when
there's a narcissist in thefamily, because who would do
this?
Somebody who lacks empathy, andoftentimes you get a narcissist
(12:02):
, or you get somebody who mightbe autistic.
Oftentimes you get a narcissistor you get somebody who might
be autistic, and these factorscan divide siblings.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
How do you bring it back together?
There could be a lot oflisteners who are estranged from
their siblings.
In fact, I just got an emailfrom a listener that said she
said she raised two wonderfuldaughters, they grew up together
and now they don't speak toeach other, so your mother
played a big role.
I felt really bad for yourmother when I was reading this
(12:31):
and she would call you up forhelp and all this sort of thing.
What kinds of roles can ourgeneration play?
Let's start with our own adultchildren and then let's go to
our personal siblings.
So with our adult children.
If we see them becomingestranged from their siblings
right now or, like this womansaid, her daughters don't talk
at all what role can we play?
(12:52):
Anything?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I don't think there's a lot you can do.
I hate to say it.
My mother put a lot of pressureon both of us and it just
turned into more resentmenttowards her.
And then she would make choices, as you know, to go to my
brother's house for a holidayand I wouldn't be invited and I
would resent that it's a no win.
And she would argued as youknow from the book.
(13:15):
She said well, you know, Idon't want to lose contact with
my grandchildren.
I'll take the crumbs I get, soyou can see how this builds a
lot of resentment.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, I listened to this and when I read it I want
to say, if that happened, Iguess maybe I'm just a real
communicator.
If that happened, I'd say I'dcall my brother and I'd say
listen, mom's going to yourhouse for Christmas.
We don't even have to eat, butwe all want to be together.
Can I come over just to giveMom a hug and say Merry
Christmas or Happy Hanukkah,whatever it was?
I feel like I don't know that Icould let any of that go.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
What if your sister-in-law doesn't want you
there and makes you feel likeyou are an unwelcome?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
visitor.
Yeah, boy, that's okay.
Now you're adding another levelto it and there's no
communicating with your brother.
Why doesn't Sally like me?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
No, I mean, maybe she's made that decision and
she's telling him that it's notthat I don't like them, they
don't like me.
How do you argue with thesenarratives, so you?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
ended up coming together with your brother.
Can you take us through thejourney?
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, I should say a couple of things before I do
those.
Some relationships are simplytoo toxic to repair.
Some have violence, some haveabuse, and in those cases you
have to protect yourself If youdecide that you do want to
repair the relationship, youhave to really sit down and ask
yourself some hard questionsLike why is this relationship
(14:45):
important to me, and not to myfamily, but just to me?
Does my family member want toresume the relationship?
You can have all the goodwillin the world, but if your
partner doesn't have any desireto reconnect, it's not going to
go anywhere.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
You mean your sibling partner, not your partner
partner.
Sorry, your sibling, okay.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Can I set aside the anger and pain and resentment
that led to the break in thefirst place and change our
pattern of relating?
Do I want to resume therelationship if I discover that
neither of us has changed?
Do I have the time and energyand emotional resilience and
support of other loved ones toreconcile and rebuild the
(15:24):
relationship?
And finally, am I gonnacompromise too much of myself if
I try to sustain therelationship with this sibling?
So those are sort of thestarting point for all of this.
If you decide you're going to goforward with it, you have to
sit down together, face to face,and, by the way, this
particular model is based onwhat's called the dignity model
(15:46):
and it's used with parties in agenocide warring parties in a
genocide.
You have to listen withoutinterrupting and without
challenging each other's stories.
The one goal is to seekunderstanding.
Experts agree thatreconciliation is almost
impossible without genuinelistening.
Reconciliation is almostimpossible without genuine
(16:06):
listening.
You have to acknowledge withempathy the other person's hurt,
anger or alienation, give themthe benefit of the doubt and
assume that they have sincere,trustworthy intentions.
And when each party acceptsboth parties' experiences, then
neither one feels devalued.
You have to stress and act onyour willingness and desire and
(16:29):
hope to create a bond andfinally, and this is the hardest
part, you have to let go of theanger.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
It's not that much different than we've talked to
people on a strange relationshipwith their children, but it's
usually the adult that has to dothe things that you just said
Listen, not criticize.
Accept what they've done wrongor even if they don't think they
have, don't argue it if youwant to create the bond again.
But you wonder how long thatbond's going to last, because
(16:56):
everyone goes back to being whothey were.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, a lot of these relationships lapse back into
estrangement.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Before you tell us your journey, I want to go back
to the favorite child.
Do you think everyone has afavorite child?
What creates that whole idea ofa favorite child number one,
and does birth order haveanything to do with it?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Well, the studies show that most mothers do have a
favorite child.
I don't know whether birthorder has anything to do with it
or not, but it definitely getscommunicated, and a lot of times
it's because somebody is morelike you or you see yourself in
one of your children.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, I think I've had favorite children, but they
change.
You know what I mean.
There's times I like one betterthan the other and I'm pretty
honest with them.
You know, right now you're noton the top of my list.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Right, that's exactly what I say.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, yeah, I think the key is actually not to show
any favoritism and try toacknowledge the uniqueness of
every child.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
What are ways you show favoritism and don't show
favoritism?
What you just said was thatyou're not on the top of my list
, yeah, but I'm saying that sortof tongue in cheek a little bit
.
But how a parent showfavoritism like giving one child
a down payment for the houseand not giving the other child
or things like that.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, money's a very big issue in families.
It's a very much a statement oflove, favoring one child over
the other in a will, giving themprecious treasures, slipping
them things without the otherkid knowing.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Well, these are all the things to avoid.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, all right, let's go to your journey, unless
there's more backdrop you wantus to hear about.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
You know, I would like to say a couple of quick
things in general.
So people think, well, youdon't talk to your brother,
that's too bad, but it's not theworst thing in the world, and
actually I would argue it's somuch more than not just talking
to my brother.
Sibling rejection ripples intomany parts of life and identity.
It profoundly affectsself-esteem, who you are, how
(18:57):
you see yourself, yourfriendships, your social
relationships, your well-being,your ability to trust and then,
of course, many of your familyrelationships as people then
align themselves with one or theother sibling.
So I think that's a reallyimportant point to recognize
that we're not just talkingabout not talking to one sibling
(19:18):
.
We're talking about how thisaffects the well-being of an
individual and what happens isit's a form of grief and in many
ways I call it mourning theliving, because you walk around
ruminating about this one personwho is a part of your shared
history and wants nothing to dowith you.
(19:39):
And it's not like death whichis final.
There's somebody walking theearth who you have an
expectation you'll have arelationship with that's
lifelong, and they want nothingto do with you.
So it's a profound rejection.
Brothers and sisters are ourfirst playmates and they instill
in each of us certain socialqualities, so they include
(20:01):
tolerance and generosity andloyalty.
It's kind of a blueprint foryour friendships and your
relationships with colleaguesand lovers.
And that's where that siblingtransference comes in that we
were talking about earlier.
There's a lot of research thatshows that a strong sibling
connection is a cornerstone ofemotional health.
(20:24):
The longest study of well-being, which was done by the Harvard
Study of Adult Development it'sbeen underway since 1938, found
that a close siblingrelationship during the college
years provided a reliableindicator for emotional health
later in years.
There are a lot of otherstudies that show that
adolescents who perceived thattheir siblings validated them
(20:47):
reported higher levels ofself-esteem.
They had better academicperformances, they had improved
chances of being well-adjustedas they get older, less
loneliness, lower levels ofdepression and a greater
satisfaction later in life.
And this is all the variousstudies that have been done in
the last couple of decades.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Boy, you'd never think that sibling relationships
place that much into your life.
But as you say that I get it, Imean that is a huge rejection.
So you're evaluating yourselftoo.
What is wrong with me that mybrother or sister wants nothing
to do with me?
I could go into a very deephole over something like that,
and it could even be a cousintoo that you were very close to,
(21:29):
and suddenly they want nothingto do with you.
And then I hear you say it'sthe whole family.
So maybe some holidays AuntSally invites everybody else but
you, because brother and hiswife or sister and her husband
are going, so you're completelyleft out.
Then Aunt Betty invites you, sothe whole family becomes
somewhat estranged.
It's very fractured.
(21:50):
Fractured is the word.
Right, Right, Okay.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Well, and then our children?
Right, I mean, it's just assimple as pulling it back to our
children.
Our adult children then don'thave those relationships with
their cousins and it hasn't beenmodeled for them.
It's very complicated.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
It's very complicated and you remind me of a story
that I included in the book,where this woman told me that
her son was on a train in NewYork City and he took his phone
and took a photograph of the guyhe was sitting next to on the
train and, he said, sent it tohis mom.
He said is this uncle Mike?
(22:31):
Of course this was his father'sbrother, but they hadn't had
any contact in 20 years.
You're absolutely right thatthis affects generations to come
and it affects your knowledgeof medical issues and it affects
family stories.
So it's really really deeptogether.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Social media this must make it even worse, because
then on a holiday, everyoneelse is having a great time and
every sibling's in matchingpajamas, and you weren't invited
to the party.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
That's exactly right.
And actually another reallyhard holiday for strange
siblings is National SiblingsDay, because on social media
everybody puts up their-.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Oh puts a picture of their brother or sister.
That's right.
Social media Everybody puts uptheir oh puts a picture of their
brother or sister.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
And I actually was just invited to National
Siblings event in New York tocelebrate the day and I'm like
are you sure you want me?
Because I'm actually theopposite, I've had the
estrangement for so many decades.
And she said, no, we want youto speak because we want to
understand these relationshipsbetter.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
That makes sense.
There is a point in your bookwhere you talk about what is
estrangement.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
A friend of mine wrote me a letter after he saw
that I was solicitingrespondents to my survey and he
said I see my brother atweddings and funerals.
Am I estranged?
Funerals Am I estranged?
(24:12):
And if you go by the typicaldefinition, yeah, it's a process
where at least one familymember voluntarily or
intentionally distancesthemselves from another family
member because of an ongoingperceived negative relationship.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Perceived is the key word there.
I've certainly had experienceswith my siblings where my kids
were quite a bit older than mysisters, and then I have a
brother whose kids are way olderthan my kids and during those
really busy, crazy times wereally didn't speak as often.
We've continued to speakthroughout, but there were those
(24:47):
gaps in time where it didn't.
I didn't even think about it.
To be perfectly honest, I don'tfeel guilty about it, but what
I do like is that when themoments arrived, we were all
together as if we hadn't skippeda beat, almost like your old
best friend like your old bestfriend.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Well, imagine if you have a conflicted relationship
with those siblings and then youhave to negotiate care for your
elderly parent, the inheritanceand settling of the will and
dividing the precious familytreasures.
Everything reemerges.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I tell you what my mother did, and I still think
it's the smartest thing, andI've told my kids the same thing
what my mother did, and I stillthink it's the smartest thing,
and I've told my kids the samething.
She said put two numbers.
There were only two of us.
Each of you pick a number.
Whoever's first pick somethingfirst.
Then it goes back and forth One, two, one, two.
That's a solution.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I mean, I think that's a fine solution.
It's just all the issues.
It doesn't always work.
Yeah, all the issues that weredivided, you reemerge.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I did have in here the toll it takes.
I think.
One person said estrangement islike a bad tooth that's always
pulsating with pain, and someoneelse said sibling estrangement
is a wound that never heals.
After 25 years of no contactwith my sister, I'm still
waiting for the hurting to stop.
Death is final explains one.
Maybe we've talked about this.
(26:10):
But the toll it takes on you Isthere anything else you want to
add to that?
Because I don't think alllisteners will understand it
unless they hear it from you.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yeah, I actually can quote a study which I think
illustrates the point Exclusioncan cause pain that cuts deeper
and lasts longer than a physicalinjury, according to Dr Kipling
William and he's adistinguished professor of
psychological sciences at Purdueand he's noted for his unique
(26:40):
studies on ostracism he saysthat when someone's shunned,
even by a stranger, even if onlybriefly, he has found that he
or she experiences a strongharmful reaction activating the
same areas of the brain thatregister physical pain.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Wow, We've really got to get to helping people
navigate back to connection ifthey want it.
Like you set up all thescenarios when they shouldn't,
but possibly someone sittinghere saying I really would love
to get in touch with my sisteragain.
We were so close at one time.
What's going on here?
What are the steps someoneshould take, or what did you do?
(27:19):
That's why I was wanting tohear your story.
Maybe it would be helpful,because yours took several steps
.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
It took a year to rebuild the relationship in the
wake of that kind of betrayaland I didn't feel like I could
trust him, and so much of thememoir portion of the book is
portraying this feeling that.
Is he trustworthy?
Am I safe to get involved withhim again?
Is he trustworthy, am I safe toget involved with him again
(27:44):
After all these years where hewanted nothing to do with me?
I talked a little bit aboutrumination earlier, but I would
wake up every day and go whatdid I do?
How can I fix this?
Why did this happen?
A lot of self-blame, you wouldask me if I knew the reason.
And the irony of my story isthat it was never about me.
(28:06):
He was an alcoholic, he wasdrinking, his life was blurry
and blotted out.
He wasn't even aware sometimesof what he was doing and how it
was affecting anyone else.
And so all these years ofblaming myself and it had
nothing to do with me.
The other piece of it as to whywe were estranged is that in
(28:29):
some ways, I reminded him of myfather and he had a very
difficult relationship with ourfather.
I can't control that.
That had nothing to do with meeither.
It wasn't something I did.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
How did that make you feel when you realized that?
I think that would be sofreeing in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
It's freeing and trapping at the same time.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
How about your kids when they were growing up?
I saw something recently wherea little kid said why aren't we
in touch with grandma?
So would your kids say uncleso-and-so from dad's family's
over here?
Where's uncle John or whatever?
And how did you explain that tothem?
Speaker 1 (29:07):
It's not easy.
I mean, what do you say tochildren?
They don't understand it.
I actually had thisconversation with my
granddaughter recently, becauseit's not so.
I might have repaired myrelationship with my brother,
but my kids have no relationshipwith him because they weren't
raised with him.
And so my granddaughter saidyou have a brother, and I said
yes, and she said how come I'venever met him?
(29:29):
Well, that's complicated.
And does your granddaughterhave a sibling?
She does.
She's only five.
She has a little three-year-oldsister, but this is all very
strange to her.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
That's what I was going to say, because she's
being brought up with thisimpression that this is the most
important person in my life,and so now she's hearing that
her adult grandmother has abrother that she's in no contact
with.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Where are you now in this journey, because I'm
guessing that it's been reallycontinuous.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
It has been continuous but, I have to say,
not without hitches.
Oh, I'm sure there have been alot of arguments and we have
worked through most of them.
These relationships wax andwane, just like any other, but
(30:22):
it's been valuable and cherished, because I only have one
brother and we have had theopportunity to share our
histories and for years, decades, I felt like I had nobody to
corroborate my memories.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Well, let me just tell you my sister and I, we
both grew up in a differenthouse.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
My kids will say the same thing.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, I have found that to be true in our
reconciliation.
His memories are very differentfrom mine.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
I think that's pretty common yeah, estranged or not
estranged, yeah it took a yearand we did a lot of activities
together.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
We had a lot of conversations and that's what
I've portrayed in the book howwe actually rebuilt this
relationship in the wake of this.
But the book also capturesother voices and other people's
stories, and then also thesocial science behind
estrangement which, like I said,when I started all this I
(31:12):
didn't even realize there wassocial science behind
estrangement.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Did you involve your brother in your family?
Would he ever come once youstarted chatting?
Would he come to a familydinner?
Did he meet your children, yourhusband?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, we had some connection but nothing ever
really took in the way that Iwould have hoped.
The cousins never grafted andit was just too late To build
these relationships.
There's a window in childhood.
If you miss that window, it'svery hard to reconnect or
rebuild it.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
How about geographical distance?
Are there any studies onestrangement?
Is it less often when thesiblings live in the same town,
or more often?
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I don't know that there's any specific research on
that, but what there is is thatpeople sometimes use physical
distance to gain the separationthey need in the family.
There are lots of differenttypes of estrangements.
You can have a physicaldistance, you can have a limited
relationship where you don'treally share your emotional
(32:16):
experiences, or you can have acomplete no contact and, like I
said earlier, a lot of people gono contact because they have to
protect themselves All right.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
I think we need to hear your steps through this
year and anything that could behelpful to our listeners.
If they're in a situation wherethey do want to reconnect and
it's safe to reconnect, whatsteps would you advise people to
take?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I went through the model the sit down together face
to face.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
But how do you reach out?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
I remember at one point I thought he called you
for lunch.
The lunch was a flop.
And then my mother left thatvoicemail and begged me to
intervene.
I called him, discharging whatI thought was my obligation and
hoping he'd never call me back.
Just a few minutes later he did.
He needed a lot of help andtreatment and it's very hard to
abandon a brother or sister whenthey're down like that.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Okay.
So when you make this phonecall maybe now it's a text.
What would be the way toapproach that in an initial
phone call?
Hi John, it's been a long time.
I'd love to reconnect if you'reinterested.
Or do you say that I maybe havedone some things, but I
apologize for anything I've donethat's been hurtful to you and
I would love to start over, orhow would you approach that?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I think there are a lot of ways to do it and it does
depend on what caused thedivide.
One possibility and my brotherand I did do this is to work
with a counselor and see if youcan have somebody mediate some
of the differences.
That helps someone.
There has to be goodwill onboth sides.
There has to be the desire onboth sides.
(33:52):
I think what I would do if Iwere in this situation is to say
that I do have the desire, doyou?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Right, and then they say, no, you have to move on.
Or let me know if you ever do,I'm open to reuniting.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
I miss you.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I love you, I miss you.
Yeah, do you think you everwould have done it without your
mother's prodding?
No, I was done.
I had been hurt too much andyou find that across the board.
Can you share any other stories?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Because you have a lot of stories in your book that
might be helpful or that'ssimilar to people could relate
to.
Actually, since the book, I'vebeen contacted by many people
who are estranged and lookingfor coaching.
So I have ended up in this veryunique position of having done
so much research and having thislived experience that I can
guide a little bit through thesedifficult relationships.
Now, again, you have to assesswhat you want to do, because
(34:53):
some of them are way too toxic,and one thing we haven't talked
enough about is that when youhave somebody who's either
mentally ill or narcissistic inthe family, you are pretty
hamstrung as far as what you cando, because there are certain
patterns of behavior that arenot conducive to healthy
(35:14):
relationships.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
How do you identify narcissism?
Because everyone has adifferent definition, it seems
to me.
So how do you identify it?
Speaker 1 (35:22):
There are certainly many red flags, and my favorite
person is Dr Romney, who has awhole series on YouTube on
narcissism.
But there are several differenttypes of narcissists and
sometimes it's not so evidentthat somebody is narcissistic.
But even if they're notnarcissistic, if they're
completely self-absorbed, buteven if they're not narcissistic
(35:45):
if they're completelyself-absorbed.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, I mean that I get self-absorbed, but I know
the word narcissism andnarcissist are used a lot in a
lot of different situations andI never can figure out is it
pompousness, is it egotism or isit narcissism?
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Right or a lack of empathy, but I think what I'm
talking about here is if therelationship is transactional,
which is very narcissistic,you're going to have a very
difficult time getting yourneeds met in it and oftentimes I
would be reluctant to say thatsomebody is specifically
narcissistic.
But certainly when you seethese patterns of
(36:18):
self-absorption andtransactional behavior and
arrogance and lack of empathy, Ithink you're probably looking
at some of that.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
All this seems so hard to me because you could be
the one that's the narcissistand you don't even know it.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, these relationships are very
complicated and need to discussour own narrative.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Well, and you brought up the mental illness, but also
the alcoholism, drug abuse, anyof those scenarios, other
trauma that you're unaware?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
of.
We had a conversation with CarlPillemer, who wrote a book on
estrangement, and he said heinterviewed so many people that
were on their deathbed and noone said I wanted more money, I
wish I had a better job, I wishI had a bigger house.
Everyone wished they would havereconciled with someone that
they were estranged from.
So that impact just carries toyour deathbed, I guess.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Right and there's a momentum to these things and
it's very hard to change thetrajectory.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Do you have any advice on how people help
themselves through it?
You can't have this sore toothpulsating with pain your whole
life.
Is there any self-care that youadvise that can help someone
through this?
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I think the big piece is you don't let your sibling
define who you are and theestrangement define who you are.
Define who you are.
You have to know yourself andsurround yourself with chosen
family who value you and respectyou, and make those people
replacements for what you'velost.
(37:54):
That makes sense.
It is a really, really painful,difficult road and nobody wants
to talk about it.
It's terribly stigmatized.
As I was saying, it's like a MeToo movement.
People feel shame.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
It's the same with child and adult child
estrangement.
No one wants to say I'mestranged from my child because
maybe they're afraid it reflectson them.
What's wrong with you that youdon't get along with your
brother?
What's wrong with you that youdon't get along with your kid?
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Right.
I always say that if I told youthat I'm divorced, you probably
wouldn't blink.
If I say I can't get along withmy mother, you'd probably roll
your eyes in agreement.
But when I say I can't getalong with my brother, it calls
a lot of things into question.
What kind of companion wouldyou be?
Are you that kind of thing?
Speaker 2 (38:44):
okay, so we're going to wrap up, but we always ask
our guests to leave us with twoor three takeaways that you want
to really make sure ourlisteners take away from this
episode.
What would those be?
Speaker 1 (38:55):
the idea that estrangement involves mourning
the living and that it ripplesthrough many parts of life and
identity.
So that's number one, thatsiblings are far more important
in terms of well-being than mostof us recognize.
The third one is that there isactually social science and
(39:19):
research in this field ofestrangement and that there are
risk factors and perilousturning points.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
And I'm going to add one more that you said, because
I think it relates to ourlisteners don't have a favorite
child.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, children pick up slights everywhere, so you
have to be as extra sensitive.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Well, thank you so much for joining us.
This was really veryenlightening.
I think, yeah, well, thank youso much for joining us.
This was really veryenlightening.
I think none of us really we'vetalked about adult child and
parent estrangement, but theimpact of the sibling
estrangement is pretty impactfulto listen to.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Thank you and thanks for giving it attention.
I think the only way to reducethe stigma is for more people to
become aware and admit to it.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Yeah, that the truth is.
So many of these issues, okay.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
So thank you so much.
Thank you.
Well, that's a wrap.
Thank you so much to Fern.
That was interesting to me, notas different, as we've said, as
estrangement from an adultchild, but I think what I gained
most of it out of it.
As parents of adult children,we need to be very careful how
(40:31):
we treat each of them equally.
Carl Pillemer said they did aresearch study and 65 or 70% of
parents have favored children.
So you're setting the stage forsome estrangement for your kids
in the future.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
So hold on to that Right, right, yeah, no, I think
we definitely need to be morecareful, setting the stage for
some estrangement for your kidsin the future.
So hold on to that.
Right, right, yeah.
No, I think we definitely needto be more careful.
That was a great episode.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Thanks so much to everyone once again for
listening.
Again, connie Gorn-Fisher, ouraudio engineer, three cheers for
you.
Remember to go to our website,biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
As little as $5 will keep usgoing.
But even more importantly, wereally want your ideas and
(41:11):
thoughts.
What topics do you want us tocover?
We need to open the doors tosome new ideas.
Email usbiteyourtonguepodcastcom On our
website.
Now you can actually give us avoicemail.
Just send us a voicemail.
Talk to us about what's goingon and we'll see what we can do
to explore it.
Everything's anonymous.
Just write to us or talk to usfrom our website.
Have a great day and remember.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.
Thank, you.
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