November 15, 2024 • 57 mins
Prepare to gain invaluable insights into the intricate dynamics of family relationships as we chat with Rachel Haack, a seasoned mental health clinician, mother, and daughter-in-law. We discuss everything from daughter-in-law issues, being a good mother-in-law, grandparent and we even have a poll our guest is going to share about what bugs young adults the most about us - and vise-versa!
Rachel opens up about her early conflicts with her mother-in-law, offering vital lessons on empathy, understanding different perspectives, and the power of effective communication in mending strained family ties.
We also discuss the high expectations often placed on mothers and the need for them to adapt as their children grow into independent adults. Rachel’s journey provides a blueprint for navigating and healing complex familial relationships, even when they start off on the wrong foot.
We explore grand parenting and identify common pitfalls such as criticism, discipline, and favoritism, emphasizing the importance of offering advice only when asked and keeping a balanced perspective on grandchildren’s strengths.
Rachel shares strategies for initiating open dialogues and handling silent treatment, as well as the importance of self-soothing and emotional regulation. We examine the balance parents need to strike between maintaining their sense of self while being open to feedback from their children. This episode is packed with practical advice on addressing past conflicts, avoiding common communication pitfalls like stonewalling and passive aggressiveness, and nurturing healthier parent-child relationships in an age where social media influences are ever-present.
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I think it's alarmingly cruel what we do to
women.
When we basically tell themthat what you need to raise a
healthy child is full investment, attention, attunement, focus,
attachment, self-sacrificing.
Do all of this.
That's what makes you a goodmom.
Then suddenly those become hergreatest liabilities that are
(00:27):
used against her once herchildren are adults.
We expect this switch to justto happen organically, because
she just needs to know her place.
I view that in a way as likekind of using women.
Have we given any credence toher experience in the attachment
?
Given any credence to herexperience in the?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
attachment.
Hello everyone, welcome to Biteyour Tongue.
The podcast.
I'm Denise.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will join us as we
explore the ins and outs ofbuilding healthy relationships
with our adult children Together.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and
nurture deep connections withour adult children and, of
course, when to bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Hello everyone and welcome toseason four of Bite your Tongue
the podcast.
We are so glad to be back andexcited that you are here with
us.
We're going to cover everythingfrom daughter-in-law issues
(01:27):
being a good mother-in-lawgrandparent and even have a poll
our guest is going to shareabout what bugs young adults the
most and what bugs us.
Let's see if we all agree withthis.
Denise, would you like tointroduce our guest today?
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yes, kirsten, can you believe we're heading into
season four?
This is sort of amazing, butwelcome everyone.
As Kirsten said, we're gladyou're with us.
Today.
We're going to have Rachel Hackand I've been following Rachel
on social media for a long time.
I love all her posts.
I love what she has to say.
Then I looked further into herand she's a mental health
clinician and she has so manydegrees I can't even list them
(02:02):
all.
But what I like most about heris she's walked the walk.
Not only is she a parent tofive children her oldest, I
think, is 18 or 20.
She's also a daughter-in-law.
Both of her kids havegrandparents and she talks
personally about all theseexperiences on her social media
posts and that sort of thing.
We're going to learn a lot fromher today.
(02:22):
I hope all of you like her asmuch as we do.
Welcome, rachel, we're so gladyou're with us today.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Hi, thank you so much for having me Should we get
right to the meat of thisinterview.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Yeah, let's do it, let's talk.
Okay, I love so much of whatyou talk about on Instagram, so
I want to start with.
You're a daughter-in-law.
You've been a daughter-in-lawfor 20 years.
You have an 18-year-olddaughter.
How do you start on the rightfoot with your daughter-in-law?
Your son or daughter bringstheir significant other over,
(02:55):
welcoming not welcoming too much.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Let's start on the right foot.
What's your advice?
Okay, so my advice here?
First, I want to say I actuallyhave no personal experience in
this.
Okay, I guess I'll start bysaying that I did not start off
on the right foot, so I'm not anexpert in that department.
I'm actually more of an experton how to get things back in
alignment when things have goneso terribly wrong foot.
So my mother-in-law and I didnot get along initially in our
(03:20):
relationship.
My husband and I had been highschool sweethearts.
We had dated since we were like16 years old.
I'd known his family and hismom for a few years by the time
we decided to get married and inhigh school it was a very just,
sweet, standard high schoolrelationship between her and I.
She was very kind to me, wouldgive Christmas gifts.
I accompanied them on a trip togo visit him.
(03:41):
In college we went away toseparate schools so I went with
them.
It was a very cordial, kindrelationship and it was really
when my husband and I weredating at the time, through a
real curveball at her.
So I can see that right.
Here is where you begin to have, like these, two very separate
(04:02):
perspectives and, depending onwhich perspective you're looking
at, you can really figure outand see the legitimacy of why
one person feels one way and theother person feels another way.
So my husband announced quiteunexpectedly to his mom that he
was going to be converting to anew faith.
He also.
Within six to nine months wewere engaged, we were getting
(04:23):
married, we were 20 years old,we were in the middle of college
.
We really just threw this righton her lap and really with the
expectation of huh, we're adults, we know what we're doing and
this is totally fine, sheunderstandably, from her
perspective, protested.
Let's say she absolutely wasblindsided by it because my
(04:47):
husband, he's a peacemaker bynature, somewhat conflict
avoidant in that way, so hedidn't really bringing her in on
what his decisions were untilthey were made.
They had a historically veryclose loving relationship.
So she was completelyblindsided by this.
She reacted strongly.
I reacted strongly right backbecause from my perspective it
(05:10):
was like here I am living mylife, I'm an adult, we can make
our decisions.
This is an overbearing, enmeshedmother.
She's behaving like anarcissist.
I don't know about language atthe time, but if I had a TikTok
account and Insta therapy, Iwould have been armed with all
the psychobabble and I wouldhave used it To my perspective.
(05:30):
She's lacking boundaries here.
She's toxic.
She was angry, she was irate.
She absolutely let us know whatshe thought about these
decisions.
She was begging us to think andtake more time and consider
this and he had been raised in adifferent faith.
She wanted time, she wanted toconsult as a family and all of
this, and we were kind of like,no, it's our life, it's our
(05:51):
decision, we're doing it, youcan get on board, or too bad was
how we approached it.
So thank thank God that thiswoman decided to fight for her
relationship with her son.
She decided to get a therapist.
So she said, can we do therapy?
I don't know what voodoo magicthis man worked back in the day
(06:15):
I wasn't in school forcounseling.
None of this was in my evenawareness, but I agreed to go to
these group, family sessionsand individual.
This therapist really did agreat job.
I don't know how he did it, butsomehow I came out feeling
understood.
She came out feeling moreunderstood.
We had a family reconciliationconversation that went very well
(06:38):
and it really changed thetrajectory of us being able to
plan the wedding and go throughthings with civility and some
respect.
I won't say that everythingjust gets buttoned up perfectly.
The next few years it was a lotof little ruptures, mini
ruptures, repairs, as we reallygot to figure each other out
(06:58):
throughout the years.
I worry that if this had beentoday versus 20 years ago, I
really think I probably wouldhave, without any guilt, pursued
the path of like no contact.
This has been too much.
We need to just live our lifeand I would have really missed
out on the opportunity to buildsomething.
That's been that I'm very proudof now.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Now as a therapist and you have people coming to
you, many of them, you say, areover 50 and they're
mother-in-laws.
What advice do you give tothese women, or even
father-in-laws, on someone'sgoing to marry too young,
someone's going to marry out oftheir race, religion, whatever
it might be?
How do you advise people?
I'm in the age where our kidsare getting married and this and
(07:41):
that and how do we become partof their life, but not, like you
said, overbearing, narcissistic, you know that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I think it's really important to examine your
expectations and the sort ofunenforceable rules that come
with your expectations.
Like what is it you're reallydreaming of or expecting when
your son or daughter partnersand ends up with another person?
Are you expecting that thisperson is going to absolutely
(08:12):
want to be a part of your familysystem because you're warm and
you're loving and you invite,and that they're just going to
want to join in and it's goingto be great?
Is that the expectation rightnow?
Is the expectation that in-lawsare a nightmare?
Is that the expectation rightnow?
Is the expectation that in-lawsare a nightmare?
It's like an invasion to yourfamily system.
It's probably going to gopoorly.
The best you can hope for iskind of a distant civil
(08:32):
relationship with each other.
I think we come to the tablewith a lot of unconscious
expectations based on ourhistory, our experiences, what
we've observed, culturalmessages, all of that.
So I recommend that you examineyour expectations and start to
erase them.
Like, the more you can createspace for the unexpected, more
(08:57):
you're going to be able to adaptto create a truly unique story,
because that's what it reallyis going to be.
It's going to be a unique storyof your family and how you all
relate to each other.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
So that's a complicating factor because they
throw stuff back at us and Idon't know that we have the
(09:27):
tools to address whatever'sgoing on there.
Like we don't understand it,we're not going there, we
probably won't be going there.
So how does that play into ushealing those relationships?
Assuming that we set aside theexpectations, because one of the
things I see is a lot of kidsare like oh well, on TikTok,
tiktok, they're saying I shoulddo blah, blah, blah, blah, and
(09:48):
that's the direction they go.
And here we are saying, well,let's do therapy, let's all do
family therapy, and they're likeuh-uh, I got it, I'm doing it
my way.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the first thing I counselparents on with this one,
because I even come with kind ofa heavy critiquing lens on the
whole TikTok insta-therapy worldand the sort of oversimplified
messages, so I come hard at that.
But I don't recommend youactually do that in your
relationship with your child.
So say they're bringing up thewords and you're hearing.
(10:20):
You're like that's that weirdTikTok stuff you guys are
listening to.
This is garbage.
I don't recommend you say that.
I don't recommend you just sayoh, this is all that nonsense.
You guys and your boundariesand whatever.
I don't have to listen to anyof this.
The more defensive of a postureyou assume, it's more evidence
of your guilt, according to theTikTok Insta therapy world.
(10:42):
So defensiveness is never goingto be the posture you want to
approach with this.
So, as hard as that is becauseit is very hard when you're
actually in interaction withyour children in that way, if
you need to go disarm yourdefensiveness with somebody else
and really just pop off, go onabout oh I'm so sick of this, I
don't want to deal with this,I'm feeling so defensive, go
(11:03):
ahead and go do that withsomebody else.
But when you're with your childand you're trying to like
interact, really adopt a postureof curiosity, like, so okay,
what do you?
What do you mean by that?
Let me, okay.
I heard you say boundaries.
What boundaries do you feel arebeing violated right now?
Okay, what would you like me todo differently, and how can and
how would you like to moveforward together?
(11:25):
What do you need from me?
What changes are you seeking?
I think you'll get off to amuch better start if you adopt
that posture versus thedefensive one that
understandably comes upnaturally, but you've got to get
that one in check.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
I think that's really important and I think we're
going to cover some of that whenwe get to this poll, and also
the pros and cons, or the thingsthat you learn from your 50
plus patients.
Anyway, let's move tograndparent real quick.
We're just going over thesethree periods of life real
quickly and then we're going toget into the real meat.
Give us what listeners shouldknow that make a loving
grandparent and what are thepitfalls they should avoid.
(12:01):
Okay, here.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I'll actually give some personal examples because
my children have grandparents onboth sides and they're very
different and they grandparentdifferently.
But I see them very much asthese beautifully unique puzzle
pieces to my girls, like mosaic,that they really fill in very
unique spaces for my girls'hearts in their relational world
.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
I have a question Are all five of your children girls
?
They are yeah, oh, for somereason that didn't click with me
.
Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Five daughters, yeah, and what's weird is my brother
just above me has five boys, sowe can't figure it out really
what's happening.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
So yeah, it's pretty funny.
Oh, my gosh, okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
The family is very large so my kids get a lot in
the grandparent realm of likecousins and chaos and loudness
and activity.
And then on my husband's sideof the family it's smaller and
they get a lot of that reallyfocused attention, quiet,
special trips, things that hisfamily provided in a unique way.
(13:00):
So I love that.
First of all, they have thatblend.
But the feature that both setsof grandparents have in common
that I think is really the thingthat makes them amazing is they
are unabashed cheerleaders oftheir grandchildren cheerleader
(13:26):
to enjoy them, to noticeeverything that's good about
them, to take the photos, toshow up at the celebration you
know the award ceremonies to bereally well-versed in your
grandchildren's strengths.
Let your grandchildren see thatyou're well-versed in those
strengths.
The pitfalls that I see I thinkit's in three categories kind of
criticism, I see.
(13:48):
I think it's in threecategories kind of criticism,
discipline and favoritism.
I think those are pitfalls ingrandparenting.
So a grandparent might seethings that they think are
deficits in their grandchild,things that need to be corrected
behaviorally.
You know, you really need toteach them this.
Have you noticed that they dothat Again, I just don't think,
from a strategic place, it'swise to go with that route.
You might think you're helping,but often your child is just
(14:10):
feeling judged.
They don't want to feel judged,so they'll remove themselves
from areas that they feel judged.
Your grandchild doesn't want tofeel judged either, so they're
less likely also to solicit youropinion or your advice.
And when you're alreadyoffering up judgment in the form
of criticism, so that's apitfall.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Okay, so you're their greatest cheerleader.
You see the positive.
Now your son or daughter comesto you for advice.
Okay, I'm struggling withSally's X, y or Z.
Are you allowed then to sayyeah, I've seen that too.
Or here are some ideas.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, okay, cause I worry.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Then I'm suddenly not a cheerleader, I'm saying
that's something, yeah, you know, whatever.
I just wonder if I can thengive a little bit of suggestion.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Absolutely.
I think when you're asked foradvice like that's such an
important role you serve as anelder, a mentor, a parent, a
guide that they will need thatsort of advice from time to time
.
They'll feel more safe to cometo you with it when you haven't
already been offering it hereand there.
I also think that you are in aunique position, too, to help
(15:20):
your child keep their child inperspective.
So if you're really well-versedin your grandchild's strengths,
you can help remind your childkeep their child in perspective.
So if you're really well-versedin your grandchild's strengths,
you can help remind your childof that, to help them buffer
their own anxieties and concernsas a parent and keep it in
context.
So, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
I love that too, because if the parent's really
concerned, you can say you knowwhat, I see all of her strengths
and it doesn't seem anything toworry about.
But if you're what, I see allof her strengths and it doesn't
seem anything to worry about.
But if you're worried you cantalk to the doctor.
You don't want to play downeverything On Instagram.
You took a poll.
I was so shocked at the hugereplies you got.
(15:57):
You asked young adults whatbugs them the most about their
parents and then you askedparents what bugs them most
about their young adults.
I think the listeners will besurprised.
Let's start with the number onething was bad-mouthing your
siblings.
So this is your adult parentbad-mouthing a sibling to
another sibling, meaning I wouldsay to my daughter your
brother's driving me crazy.
I wish he would do this,because I do this sometimes.
(16:19):
I'll say could you call yoursister?
And that's really the wrongthing to do.
I'm sure I'll say you know shecan't make a decision on this.
Can you call her and help her,or will you tell her she needs
to do this and that's bad, huh.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
It can be.
It's so hard because I don'tthink there's any real black and
white rules here.
So what you're kind of alludingto is the triangulation that
can happen in families, right?
So you're having conflict andtension with one child and so
it's kind of like you rope inanother child, express to them.
They seem to be listening orthey're more understanding, so
(16:56):
you end up sharing more withthem, and then sometimes they
can help in the role ofmediation, right?
Like, can you talk to yourbrother about this?
Sometimes that can be helpfuland beneficial.
Other times it can just reallystart to burden the whole system
because you start avoiding moreand more the direct
conversation that needs to behad, because there's too much
(17:16):
anxiety around that and there'stoo much volatility.
Instead of addressing that,it's like I can go over here and
unburden myself in this way andmaybe this child will help take
care of that.
So I do recommend caution indoing that.
I think that when you're havinginterpersonal conflict of any
(17:37):
kind, try to keep the lines asdirect as possible.
If you need more support, pullit from an outside source.
That's more objective than thefamily members that are so
deeply involved in all of therelationships there.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Well, and typically what happens to me?
If the siblings have a goodrelationship, they tell each
other.
Mom told me to call you.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, Well, and I think too, when there's just an
explicit understanding too, that, hey, I talked to mom, you know
she asked me to talk to you.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
She's worried about this right?
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, I think that that's better than pretending
we're not talking behind thescenes and everyone forgets and
can't keep track of the secretsof who said what to who and said
not to say it.
It just can get really messylike that.
I think it's okay to give someleeway for the fact that we talk
about each other in the family,Like that's just something we
do, but if it's coming from aplace of goodwill and an attempt
(18:33):
to reconcile versus just anattempt to feel heard and
justified in my position anddon't you understand me that's
important that we're reallyclear about what's my goal in
saying this to the sibling.
I'm actually thinking this isgoing to help aid in
reconciliation or is this justme getting to unburden to my
child?
Who's a better listener?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
So one of the other things that came up in your poll
is that, from the kid'sperspective, is that parents
never got to know the child asan individual.
Tell us about this.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I think that there are children, once they become
adults, they really feel like myparent doesn't actually know me
, like they don't know what I doat work.
They don't know my friends,they're not very curious about
that.
I start to really confront thefact that I really felt like I'm
a piece in my parents play intheir story and in their dreams
(19:25):
and I felt that way for a longtime instead of really feeling
like they know a lot about meand my dreams and that
absolutely can happen.
I mean, you can have parentsthat are just very much wrapped
up in the dream of what theywere building for their family
and their life.
The children are just supposedto integrate and follow along
and obey and do it the way we doit.
In those types of systems thatI would call very low in
(19:47):
differentiation, oftentimes anindividual child will feel
unknown because anytime if theytried to express what was
different about them, it waskind of clamped down on because
it didn't really match with thebroader system and what the
parents wanted to think of thefamily as.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Yeah, it makes sense.
But I'm wondering, as a parentof an adult child, how do we
know whether we've done that?
Can we ask the child?
You know, I read somewhere thatsometimes kids don't feel seen?
What if we have been doing thatall along and now we want to
change our ways?
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yeah, well, what you just said there I loved, which
is I read something somewhere.
Sometimes kids feel likethey're not seen, and that
really bothered me because Ithought have I done that in any
way?
If I have, I really want toknow.
A question that I like to haveparents ask their kids is to say
I know I have blind spots, sowould you help point them out to
(20:43):
me when we go?
And we do it with that approach.
Oftentimes our children willrespond and they'll be
appreciative too that we've justacknowledged we have blind
spots and we'd like to learnmore, and I find that they will
deliver their feedback moregently too in those moments.
So it doesn't feel as woundingbecause it is wounding to hear
(21:03):
your blind spots.
Nobody likes that we have them.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
We know everyone does this.
This is just across the board,I don't know how outwardly.
So I guess we want some adviceon how to either completely bite
our tongues or and here's theissue being critical of the
child's choices or not beingsupportive.
So, whatever it might be, yourchild who was going to be a
doctor is now an artist livingon a growing organic food up in
(21:28):
Wisconsin or something, and youwere dreaming of the child that
was a doctor, or lots ofdifferent choices they make.
How do we bite our tongues, Iguess?
But also, are we allowed to letthem know how we feel?
What do we do?
Speaker 1 (21:42):
I think this one goes back to really examining your
expectations and your dreams.
So we have dreams for ourchildren as parents.
Of course we do.
We really see so much potentialin them and we picture things
going a certain way for them,and so sometimes we need to
grieve our dreams.
And it's okay to grieve yourown dreams.
(22:03):
But I think when you share thatdisappointment with your child,
you're making them responsiblefor your grief then and you're
really communicatingdisappointment in them.
So I think you have to askyourself is that really the
message I want them to ingest?
For me, Is this sort ofexistential disappointment that
(22:26):
they aren't doing what I hopedthey would do.
When I talk with parents likethat, most of them go absolutely
not.
I don't want that to be theresonating theme of my child's
life.
So if you don't, then you dohave to bite your tongue and
also clean the slate ofexpectations and be open to a
(22:48):
new story with your child thatthere's something unique going
on here and it might just bebeautiful.
I recently counseled with afamily.
There was a lot of frictionleading up to a wedding.
It looks like everything wasgoing to really go to crap
pretty fast, but we were able todo some really great work
together and to salvage things.
They had a wonderful weddingand later the dad expressed and
(23:11):
said you know, I've reallylearned a lesson in this.
I've learned that I need tohave more faith in people and I
need to have more faith in theprocess.
That even though I'm not incontrol and it's not being done
the way I want to do it or howit would be, that it could turn
out really beautifully too, it'snot being done the way I want
to do it or how it would be,that it could turn out really
beautifully too.
That's a resonating theme evenin my own life with my
mother-in-law that when sheyielded and just showed up as a
(23:34):
support figure, she really didit so well.
And we've been throughvariations, even in our faith.
We, the faith that my husbandconverted to we 10 years later,
left that faith.
So she's there as a supportingfigure through every chapter,
every decision we've made that Iknow she never agreed with
exactly or would have done thatway, but just that theme of
(23:55):
support in all my variations hasbuilt a sense of real trust and
comfort in the relationshipthat I think a lot of parents
yearn for.
They want their children, tosee them that way.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
I want to add something For those listening.
If you listened to our PrideMonth episode last season with
Matthew Rodriguez, he saidsomething to me because I said
to him don't parents have anopportunity to grieve what their
dreams were for their child?
They had a little girl and nowthe little girl's a little boy.
And he just point blank lookedat me and said maybe when they
imagine, they ought to imaginebigger.
(24:27):
Instead of she's going to growup to be a bride, I'm going to
walk her down the aisle, she'sgoing to get married.
Maybe there's a larger worldout there that we're forgetting
to imagine.
And I really love the way hesaid that.
He said something like it's notthe Cinderella story anymore.
I loved it.
It's really stuck with me.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
And to echo that there was an interview, I think
it was, with Cheryl is itSandberg?
She's the.
I remembered when her husbandpassed away suddenly and she was
in the process.
There was something that reallystruck me.
She said you know, sometimeslife does not go according to
plan A, and when it doesn't, wehave to learn to kick the shit
out of plan B, and I think wecan adopt that as parents too.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
That I like that.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, but how can I kick the shit out of Plan B here
?
Speaker 4 (25:12):
I think that was the name of her book.
Plan B, Was it Plan?
B, I think that was the name ofher book.
Plan B yeah, Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
So this one's kind of a hot button of mine and uses
the word trauma Parentsdownplaying or dismissing the
trauma in a child's life ormarriage in their experience,
what they view as trauma.
The reason why this is a hotbutton for me is because I
overhear the word trauma beingused for things that to me that
(25:41):
was growing up, it's life.
So this word trauma triggerssome things for me.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Triggers, some trauma .
Triggers, some trauma.
I'm like guys, what this?
Speaker 3 (25:52):
isn't trauma.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So anyway, if you could explain a little bit more
about what you were hearing onthat.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yes, there's actually a therapist online called Joe
Nucci Joe Nucci Therapy, and hedid this video called I'm so
over the cult of trauma.
I think that that's what a lotof parents are feeling is just
this word.
It's taking on a new meaningand first of all, yes, it has
taken on a new meaning.
Like trauma has undergone whatwe call concept creep, which is
it's expanded in the boundariesconceptually, what we consider
(26:24):
trauma, what we consider harmfulbehavior.
So we use that word to describea lot many more things than
historically we've ever usedthat word for.
This is an example of where Ithink it's so easy to inhabit
the defensive posture.
When that comes up, you hearyour kids say trauma, give me a
break.
Like you want to know trauma,I'll tell you trauma.
(26:47):
Like, or I actually have traumain my history, or you don't
know trauma.
So, again, not a strategic move, though.
Even if it's correct, it's notstrategic for the relationship.
So when that comes up, you'regoing to want to again adopt the
posture of curiosity.
So it's okay.
(27:07):
What do you mean by that?
How do you think that'simpacted you?
You can even avoid saying theword.
You don't have to say traumaback to them, but you can say
tell me how this was traumaticfor you, help me understand, and
I also want to understand whatyou consider trauma.
What does that word mean to you?
If you can come from thatposture again, you might learn a
lot as far as, yeah, maybe youwouldn't name it trauma, but
(27:31):
there was some uncertain thingthat happened in their life that
changed the way they thoughtabout themselves at that time,
or they felt like their trustwas betrayed or something.
They went through a really darkperiod emotionally following
something happening and thatneeds to be fleshed out.
And what a great opportunity ifthey'll do it with you, like if
(27:51):
we can kind of get over ourhang up about the name and the
way that we think about it.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
yeah, the words used without dismissing the actual
experience.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I think the trauma.
When people use that word, I'llsometimes substitute it in my
mind as an experience thatreally shaped me in some way.
So if I think in my head, okay,this was an experience that
shaped them in some way andthey're probably thinking it has
shaped me for the worse, insome way it's impacted me
negatively.
I need to find out what thosenegative impacts are and what we
(28:25):
can do about them to find outwhat those negative impacts are
and what we can do about them.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Right, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
All right, this is a hot onefor me, and I just actually read
or heard something about it too.
So the son gets married, andwhen a son marries, his
allegiance is now to his wife.
I do believe that that's hardfor the mom.
So the kids say this is abiggie when the mother doesn't
understand that the son'sallegiance now is to the wife.
(28:50):
Do you agree with that?
How can the mom approach this?
And mother sons have a reallyinteresting relationship.
I think in most cases themother feels attached to her son
.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Okay, I have a lot to sayoration how beautiful the
mom and her baby and this boyand he loves his mama and she
loves him and it's the mostprecious sweet thing and
everybody loves that.
And then it's like a switchgets flipped.
When he becomes an adult it'ssuddenly a one of disgust.
It's like if there's closeness,if that bond is still there, if
(29:46):
there's any allegiance still tothat bond in any way, it's
often viewed through yeah, it'sdisgust, it's and we question
his masculinity of like you're areal mama's boy.
We also like to test theirmasculinity of like you got to
prove to me now as your wifethat I'm more than her.
I think it's a very like binaryway of looking at things,
(30:09):
because I think it's entirelypossible for a son to have full
allegiance to his marriage andhis wife and to have allegiance
to a relationship with hismother in the broader system,
for those two things to be keptseparate.
That there's kind of like your,there's your nuclear unit where
you reign supreme right, yourdecisions and your autonomy
there, and then there's kind oflike your, there's your nuclear
unit where you reign supremeright, your decisions and your
(30:30):
autonomy there, and then there'sthe extended, broader family
system that it might be okay toshow a little deference to.
One of the reasons I think it'simportant to maybe consider this
is because I think it'salarmingly cruel what we do to
women.
When we basically tell themthat what you need to raise a
(30:51):
healthy child is full investment, attention, attunement, focus,
attachment, self-sacrificing doall of this.
That's what makes you a goodmom.
Then suddenly those become hergreatest liabilities that are
used against her once herchildren are adults.
We expect this switch to justto happen organically, that she
(31:12):
just needs to know her place.
I view that in a way as likekind of using women.
Have we given any credence toher experience in the attachment
Like?
When we talk about attachmentbonds, we're always talking
about it to the benefit of thechild and we don't pay a whole
lot of attention to the how muchthis changes the mother, how
(31:33):
deeply this impacts her.
And so when that bond, if thatbond is just completely broken
and cut off, cut the apronstrings, you don't need her
anymore.
Her involvement is superfluousand integrating her in is just
inconvenient to your wife.
So you need to go with yourwife's preferences on all of
this.
I see it as really discarding awoman in the system.
(31:54):
I like to advocate for thetruth that inside all of us we
are girls.
We are girls who want to belongand need love and want to
belong in our family systems.
When we get too callous aboutthis without ever taking into
account the mother-in-law'sexperience, the mom's experience
of loss necessary loss, yes,like you're supposed to lose
(32:18):
your child in that sense, totheir marriage, to their life
but there's grief and there'spain and there's fear that comes
with that.
But there's grief and there'spain and there's fear that comes
with that.
And oftentimes a woman goingthrough that protests or has an
emotional reaction to it.
Instead of that being sort ofnormalized or viewed with some
(32:39):
compassion, I see it reallypathologized.
Oh, this is how dysfunctionalshe is.
She's whining about him nottexting her enough in the week.
So I kind of first see that as,oh, that's a protest behavior,
about loss.
That's something she'sexperiencing and while the
behavior might not be excusablelike we don't need to guilt trip
and maybe she's beingoverbearing with what she's
(33:00):
doing or trying how she's tryingto go about it, I think that we
we could seriously benefit froma little bit more compassion in
this area towards mothers andmothers-in-law with adult
children.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Well, I think you're right on some aspects of it.
I think it just depends on thesituation, because we put our
sons in a tough situation whenthe mom I mean I don't want to
say know her place, because Iunderstand everything you're
saying okay, but if the wife issaying your mother wants me to
do this, this and this all thetime, or your mother is not
(33:35):
being understanding that wecan't go to Christmas, or your
mother is coming into our housewithout knocking or not even
letting me know that she'scoming over, she says to her son
you've got to talk to yourmother.
I've tried.
Now we put our son in thissituation and I do think at that
point it is the son's role tosay listen, my wife's really
struggling with this.
(33:56):
She's talked to you a lot aboutthis.
I love you very much, but I dohave another nuclear family.
You know what I mean.
There's a real catch 22 in this.
I agree absolutely what yousaid and when it's done right,
it should be done the way you'resaying.
The mother can be valued byboth the daughter-in-law and the
son.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yes, absolutely, and in those cases I would say that
that is, a person has notconfronted or accepted the
necessary loss that's involvedhere.
I also think of it as it's notlike second-class citizenship.
It's just there's primary,there's the primary role of what
your adult child needs to do intheir life to create their,
(34:36):
their stability in theirrelationships.
And then there's the secondarysupportive roles, and it's like
you are shifting now to thesecondary supportive role
Exactly Of their main eventright, exactly.
Exactly the secondary supportiverole of exactly an event, right
, exactly, exactly, absolutely.
There are absolutely behaviorsthat just totally cross the line
, cross boundaries.
We need to have them, but I, Ithink I would add that I'm kind
(34:59):
of curious about the way that westill do it through the sun,
like in these cases.
I see it a lot, right, you, I'mlike it's 2024 ladies, we're
grown ass women and we can havedirect conversations with each
other.
Like I don't necessarily needto go through my husband and be
like you need to go say this toyour mom, you need to go to this
(35:19):
room and when it gets to mom,mom already knows that it's
coming through daughter-in-lawanyway.
So it's like why don't we justconfront the anxiety and the
difficulty of learning tocommunicate with each other and
laying down the boundaries witheach other, instead of sort of
triangulating the son in aparticular way that puts strain
(35:41):
on the marriage and puts strainbetween the two of them?
I know that I don't hear anyoneelse advocating it this way,
but I do.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
I'm kind of like you're a big girl.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
I think you're right.
I think you're a hundredpercent right.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
If you can bring it out.
A lot of it also depends on thepersonality of the wife and the
husband.
I'm more talkative than myhusband and sometimes I want you
need to speak up and tell yourmom too.
I can't be the only one, sothere's so much going on here.
But you're absolutely right,bring it out.
Okay, let's get to the parents.
Yeah, let's do the parents Okay, so go ahead.
(36:14):
Kirsten, you can take the firstone.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
So the first one is minimizing your experience or
your knowledge.
I mean, we've all had a lot ofit by the time we have adult
children, so how do we navigatethat?
They don't really care aboutour experience, they don't.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
They don't and it's such a bummer because it's like
we have so much to offer and somany.
It's like you could avoid somany unnecessary detours if you
just absorb my wisdom here.
But I really think it's againthat the inverse of the
relationship of those who knowthe most know, to say the least.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
Oh, I like that.
Say that one more time.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Okay, so those who know the most know, to say the
least.
If we know what it's like to bea young adult or an adult that's
getting started, we should knowthat we had our own levels of
ignorance and confidence at thattime.
That's actually what my grandpamy grandpa always said ignorance
and confidence.
It's like the feature of youthand it's true.
(37:17):
It's like we really don't knowwhat we're doing, but we have
this sort of like crazyconfidence sometimes to our
approach and the new things weknow and we think everything is
old that our parents know.
And it's really a part of thedevelopmental process that your
child at that point is in thatthey think they know more than
you and they think that yourinformation is old and outdated.
(37:41):
But that is part of the processand often, as the years go on,
it starts to make more sense tothem the things that you once
said or the way that you liveyour life or the values that
you've sort of demonstratedthroughout your time as a parent
and I find that a lot of kidsstart absorbing that, but not so
much later in life, and youmight not ever get that
(38:02):
vindication, Like your childmight not ever validate your way
of seeing things.
I think that's again anothernecessary loss of parenting.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
So it has a lot to do with the whole idea of people
learn best by doing, and so theymay need to make some of those
mistakes and I guess, if we'vedone our job when they're
younger, you hope that themistakes that they do make and
the decisions they make as theyare adults, that they're
comfortable with, whatever theconsequences are, and be able to
say, okay, that's your path,that's your life.
(38:33):
I just raised you to beindependent.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
This next one is one that I think myself and a lot of
my friends talk about a lot,mostly the critical part.
Young adults tend to be verycritical of their parents in
terms of wanting them to sayeverything politically correct,
not talking so much to thewaitress in the restaurant I
could come up with a thousandthings.
Don't talk to the checkoutwoman.
Why do you have to telleveryone everything?
(38:59):
Why do we have to change somuch to make them happy?
They seem a little selfish intheir control of who we are.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Knowing who you are as a parent, versus allowing
your child to define you basedon their critiques.
Like there's a way that we cango at parenting where we're
really seeking their validationof us, like am I doing it right?
Okay, let me change.
And then there's another way ofbeing really grounded in our
values and our principles as whowe wanna be and then leading
(39:28):
from that place so that evenwhen our kid is lobbying every
little criticism about things,when we demonstrate a comfort
with ourself sometimes that'slike the best thing we can model
to our child is I'm kind ofokay being the weird, quirky mom
who talks too much to thewaitress.
I'm sorry that bothers you, butI'm okay with it.
Instead of why do you thinkthat about me?
(39:48):
I'm not like that.
No, it's kind of like we needthem to be okay with it or we
have to change it.
When there's another stance herewhich is I'm okay with my
quirky, weird mess.
That you're that or that you'reseeing is not okay, I'm
actually okay with it.
But there's other times whenour child is pointing out a
blind spot.
(40:09):
It's like we can self-reflecton that and think do I do?
Do that?
I didn't realize I do that andnow that it's more consciously,
I'm more conscious of it.
Now I have a choice Am I okaywith it?
Is it part of who I am and I'mfine with that, or is it
something that I'm actually notso fine with and I would like to
change?
So cause, yeah, I do think yourkids are constantly critiquing
(40:31):
or making fun of I think it'salso part of that them wrestling
with the fact that, as they getolder, parents get removed from
the hero status in our minds,the simplified version that we
have of the all-knowing,competent person.
And we're just sort of likeobserving this humanity to them.
The more a parent candemonstrate that I'm comfortable
(40:52):
with my humanity, like I'mcomfortable, I'm okay with who I
am, am, and can demonstratethat to their child in those
conversations without flippingout and being like why do you
always think this about me?
I don't like that you thinkthis about me and I'm so upset
that you said that about meinstead of thinking or
approaching it for more of aplace of yeah, I do that, I do.
I talk a lot to the Uber driver.
(41:13):
I like to talk to the Uberdriver.
I like to talk to the Uberdrivers.
It's okay that you don't liketo talk to the Uber drivers.
That's a joke.
Speaker 4 (41:20):
No, no, no, that's exactly.
So, yeah, you've been there.
You've been there.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Okay, the next one is refusing to communicate to
solve problems, and also howthat somehow allows them to hold
access to our grandchildren.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
You're asking that like when the children refuse to
communicate.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Yeah, we've actually gotten a lot of letters on this,
and I almost want to combinethis with the next question.
If that's okay, they don't wantto solve the problem, so then
they don't include us.
We don't see the grandchildren,as often A lot of parents of
adult kids feel that way.
They live an hour away, theyoffer to help, but the kid
doesn't want them there.
How do they deal with that?
Speaker 1 (41:59):
So I think that one cannot not communicate.
It's like a mantra.
When we are actually giving thesilent treatment, that's a form
of communication, right, we canbring that explicitly to the
forefront.
You can say I'm troubled thatour communication seems to be
primarily just silent treatment.
(42:20):
I say something and you don'trespond.
Can we work on that?
Is that something we can figureout?
I do find that a lot of timeskids they stop talking to the
parents after there's beenalready some red flags going on,
that a parent can pick up onthe communication that they have
(42:40):
attempted at multiple times,but it's going poorly each time.
It's like it's escalating intosomething, or there's just
defense and criticism cyclesgoing back and forth and then
the withdrawal happens.
If you can look in your historyand you have your child who is
refusing to communicate, youmight want to look back and say,
okay, what were the last fewtimes when we addressed this?
(43:02):
What actually happened there?
And do I need to bring that upwhen I ask them to have another
conversation?
So I know we've attempted thisconversation a couple of times
before.
I want to apologize.
I said that thing, or I saidthat your wife was behind all of
this, just trying to ruin thefamily or whatever it is, and I
think that maybe that's whyyou're not wanting to have a
(43:23):
conversation now with me.
Would you be open to tryingagain?
Would you be open to attendingfamily therapy?
Pick the therapist, you canoffer those kinds of options.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
You say you have a lot of patients over 50.
They've had this greatrelationship with their kid.
Now they're walking oneggshells.
I want to talk about threethings.
You talk about that sometimesadult parents can do
Stonewalling, defensiveness andpassive aggressiveness.
Explain them what they mean andhow we do it.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Okay.
So stonewalling is actually aninvoluntary response in us.
We don't intentionally do it.
It's just like when you are inconflict and arguing with
somebody and you just get tothat place you're like I can't
anymore.
I can't, I have nothing more, Idon't want to talk, I don't
want to say anything.
You can feel yourself sort ofjust like stoning up, Like I,
I'm so upset, I need to withdrawinto myself in that moment and
(44:18):
to withdraw into myself in thatmoment.
And so someone who's stonewallsthey might they emotionally
withdraw.
They won't come to the tablefor the conversation anymore
because it's too upsetting.
It often looks like the silenttreatment too.
They withdraw everything andjust kind of clam up we're not
going there anymore.
If you find yourself doing thatas a parent, like I see it where
a parent and their adult childthe adult child criticizes,
(44:40):
gives feedback on something thatreally has bothered them about
the parent and the parent is sowounded by that they feel
misunderstood and they're hurt.
Parent shuts down.
Nope, If that's the way they'regoing to talk to me, if that's
how they actually feel about me,I'm done the emotion that shows
up when that happens.
(45:01):
We can't move beyond that untilwe learn to self-soothe and
figure out okay, can I getmyself regular enough and calm
enough that I will reinitiatethis conversation to seek a
repair again?
But sometimes, when we get tothe stone wall phase, we just
shut down and then everythinggets swept under the rug or the
relationship becomes more andmore distant, or we start faking
(45:24):
that things are okay whenthey're not because we can't go
there Interesting.
Speaker 4 (45:30):
Okay, defensiveness.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Defensiveness is just basically like not taking
accountability.
You know you make excuses oryou are in denial.
So, like a common, exaggeratedexample, your child says you
forgot my birthday when I was 14and left my friends and I at
the mall that day.
And the mom goes oh, I guess Iwas okay.
(45:54):
All right, I was a neglectfulmom, I never loved you, I didn't
care for you enough.
I'm just so terrible.
And she kind of has this reallyinflated response to this
criticism or this memory and inthat moment all your child is
learning is don't say anythingto mom.
It's not safe to actually workout and figure out and get some
(46:16):
understanding in thesedepartments if it's going to be
something that mom feelsdefensive about.
So what should mom say?
So when you feel thatdefensiveness arising, you can
actually just say did I forgether at the mall that day?
Oh, I did.
I did.
I forgot your thing that day.
(46:36):
I'm so sorry.
That was definitely not myintention, but I'm sorry.
Tell me more about what thatday was like for you.
So that would be to adopt thenon-defensive posture.
The defensive posture mightlook a little bit more like well
, I need you to understand thatI had three other kids to take
care of and I was working twojobs at the time and I don't
(46:58):
really appreciate that you'rebringing up you know that I'm
somehow some kind of neglectfulmother because I forgot you at
the mall that day.
Right, that's a defensiveposture.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
It's understandable.
It's understandable that wefeel that way because we have
the whole history here, Rightand but your child has a
perspective and it's and it'sworth exploring with them.
Speaker 4 (47:17):
A lot of work on our part, kirsten.
Always have to think about whatto say, how to react.
Ok, passive aggressiveness Idon't understand this completely
.
In fact, you and I were talkingabout that, kirsten, at one
point.
What does it mean when a parentis passive aggressive?
Speaker 1 (47:32):
So it's kind of expressing negative feelings
indirectly rather than openly.
Giving the silent treatment isa very passive, aggressive form
of communication.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Because you know inside you're seething right,
but you're not coming out andsaying anything because you're
stonewalling.
No, I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
I'm fine, it's fine.
No, I'm good, I'm good.
Aggressive form of silenttreatment and response right,
right, I don't have any needs,don't expect me to.
Okay, you know, that's kind ofpassive aggressive, like you are
bothered but you're sayingyou're not bothered.
Everyone's confused now.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
So one of my kids was home for the holidays and they
were leaving for the airport inan hour and no packing was done.
I was trying not to be nudgy,but I was saying things like do
you think you should be readingthat now?
Do you think maybe you shouldbe starting to pack?
And they said to me you know,you're kind of being passive,
aggressive and I wasn't surewhat that meant at that point.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Okay, so in that moment I'm guessing you felt
something.
Oh yeah, I was really mad thatthey weren't packing.
What you're feeling is you'remad.
So it's like I feel mad rightnow.
So I feel mad because my kidsaren't packing and they need to
get to the airport.
I feel mad because they shouldbe more responsible in this or
they should be timekeeping morethan this.
So you can choose to go at itthat way and just directly say
(48:52):
I'm mad, you guys should bepacked already.
And and I'll say then that atleast is not passive, it's
somewhat aggressive if direct.
But you could also look at itand say are these my adult
children?
If they miss the flight, am Ithe one paying for it or are
they the one paying for it?
You know, your response mightbe different.
(49:14):
Like, is it?
It's understandable for me tobe mad about this.
It's irritating, but is itsomething I need to bring up?
Or is this one of those thingsI can practice like a healthy
non-attachment to?
Like?
You know what, however you guysget to the airport is on you,
so long as I'm not paying forthe tickets, I might need to say
I'm actually mad because I paidfor these tickets and I want
you to get to the airport ontime.
Speaker 4 (49:34):
So I like the way you said something about not
non-attachment.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
What did you say?
I thought practicing healthynon-attachment.
Speaker 4 (49:41):
Yeah, healthy non-attachment.
I really like that it's notsilent treatment.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
It's not I don't care about you guys, whatever, I'm
just not going to care.
It's just I'm choosing in thismoment that this is not what I'm
going to attach to you gettingto the airport on time Not what
I'm going to attach to yougetting to the airport on time.
I'm mad right now about the wayyou guys are managing time and
packing, but I could choose inthat moment to just healthy
non-attachment.
Speaker 4 (50:02):
With five kids, you have to practice non-attachment
all the time, don't you?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Although I will say I'm still in the phase of really
active parenting, in that Ionly have one adult child and
four that aren't, so I sort ofknow that I have these
challenges coming my way.
There's the saying they knowthe literature but not the life.
I know a lot of the literature.
I don't exactly know the lifedirectly as the mom yet of all
these children Right and andyour adult child.
Speaker 3 (50:34):
You've still got some stuff coming up, which is why
our podcasts exist.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
Yeah, these are the early years.
Your daughter's only 18.
You're at the way beginning.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
No, I need all the time, all the advice, all I need
it all.
I think maybe this is a part ofthat process too developing
more compassion as we gothroughout our lifespan.
For others including our ownmothers, our own mother-in-laws
like this is so much harder whenyou're doing it.
Speaker 4 (51:02):
Well, and also, like you said, you're in active
parenting.
It's hard to flip that switchright off.
Yeah, you know so that's reallyyeah, you got to flip the
switch suddenly.
And when do you?
Speaker 1 (51:14):
I'm like are you still going to check in when you
get home, like, like, I'd likea text you know, like wait, no,
she doesn't have to tell me whenshe's home, but how will I know
she's safe?
I guess I just have to practicehealthy non-attachment.
But she's going to be out theredoing her thing and I don't get
to know every single day thatshe's home safe If she doesn't
text or call or whatever.
(51:34):
I just have to work on that.
Speaker 3 (51:37):
So there are two great questions that you suggest
parents of young adults ask.
Would you be willing to askthose and explain why they're
important?
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yes, I think that these are kind of my two ideal
questions that both the parentcan ask to their adult child and
an adult child could ask totheir parent.
Okay, first one is how can Ishow up for you as a parent now,
at this point in your life?
So I think that captures theever-changing nature of our role
(52:07):
as parents and checking in withour kid.
What do you actually need fromme at this point in your life?
Because it's going to bedifferent than what you needed
from me 10 years ago.
Speaker 4 (52:16):
Or two years ago or a month ago.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Yes, Especially with how much things can change in
adulthood for them, right,exactly.
And then I think it's sohelpful for your adult child to
ask their parent is whatfeedback do you think would be
helpful for me to hear?
Speaker 4 (52:36):
And what do you mean by that?
What are we asking exactly inthat question Like?
Speaker 1 (52:40):
as a kid.
It's kind of like mom or dadhelped me see my blind spots.
I know I have them.
I'm an adult.
Part of my adulting is knowingthat I have blind spots too and
my parents sees me in aparticular way and I could use
some feedback on my life.
Sometimes we want it, sometimeswe don't, and we avoid it
because we don't want to hearwhat they have to say, because
we might be dealing with our ownshame about our own choices.
(53:03):
We don't like where we're at inlife.
But other times it's like Ineed you to help me see my blind
spots.
I do that sometimes with my mom, like, help me, what am I not
doing as a mom?
What do you see with my kids?
What is it that you think wouldbe helpful for me to know?
Speaker 4 (53:20):
And my guess is that question doesn't come out until
they pass that phase ofignorance.
And what was it?
Ignorance and Ignorance andconfidence.
Ignorance and confidence.
That's exactly right.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
If you find that an adult child, you're doing a good
job, don't worry.
Speaker 4 (53:36):
That child.
You're doing a good job, don'tworry.
That's exactly right, exactlyAll right.
So, as we wrap up, we alwaysask our guests to leave our
listeners with two key pointsthey want them to take away from
this interview.
Can you share with your two keypoints you hope our listeners
will take away?
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Yeah, I haven't said this actually yet, but I think
it will encapsulate a lot ofwhat we talked about.
I think we're living in aunique era right now where we
have an allergy to ambivalence.
Ambivalence is really thepresence of conflicting emotions
.
It's kind of the love and theloathing, the needing someone
and feeling burdened by them.
Motherhood captures this reallywell, because every mother
(54:12):
knows I love my child, I woulddo anything for my child and I
just want them to go away for afew hours and leave me alone and
let me have some peace.
How can you think, coexist atthe same time they do.
That's part of what it is to bea loving human in a loving
relationship.
I think that we are in an eraright now where we really want
to collapse this ambivalence.
We don't like it.
(54:32):
It has to be all or nothing.
I think, when that plays out,particularly in family
relationships and parentingrelationships, that we fail to
make space for the naturalcomplexity and complication that
just arises as our childrengrow older, as our lives become
(54:52):
increasingly layered, as moreand more people enter into the
family system.
I think if we could developmore distress tolerance for
ambivalence or just tolerancefor ambivalence, then our
relationships are going to gomuch better.
That's my main takeaway, orwhat I hope people take away is
that your family is complex andcomplicated, not because you're
(55:12):
particularly dysfunctional andawful and you failed as a parent
, but because these things arenaturally so.
The more we can create somecompassion for that reality, the
better our relationships aregoing to go with each other.
Speaker 4 (55:27):
I love that.
It's kind of like give up theperfection.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
Yes, I actually have a post that said stop trying to
create the perfect family.
Right, exactly, well, except wewill we will share your
Instagram account.
Speaker 4 (55:39):
You want to tell everyone what your handle is
right now, before we go.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
Yeah, it's just my name, rachel Hawk, and like hack
H, a, a, c, k.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (55:48):
That's never misspelled, right Right, it's
mispronounced all the time.
Rachel, thank you so much forjoining us.
You're just really a breath offresh air we really appreciate
it.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
Thank you, this is great.
Well, I appreciate being here.
It was really fun.
Thank you, okay, take care.
Speaker 4 (56:06):
So that's a wrap.
I really enjoyed it, kirsten.
We covered some of the sametopics we've talked about, but
with a whole new perspective,and I hope some of you watch
this on YouTube because she'spretty amazing, and check out
her Instagram at Rachel Hawk atR-A-C-H-E-L-H-A-A-C-K.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
Yeah, definitely worth following her on Instagram
If you're somebody that is onthere.
I think that her perspectivetakes into account where we are
and who we are, and there's atwist to it.
Well worth it for all of, notjust for us, but also for our
adult children, I think wouldgive them a little bit of
perspective.
Speaker 4 (56:43):
Absolutely.
And thank you Connie GornFisher again, our absolutely
extraordinary audio engineer.
She has just done so much forthis podcast behind the scenes.
Check out our website,biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
You can press our support tabthere.
Donate.
We still need money, guys, tokeep going.
(57:03):
So thanks again and remembersometimes you just have to bite
your tongue.
Speaker 3 (57:08):
Thank, you.
I think it's alarmingly cruel what we do to
women.
When we basically tell themthat what you need to raise a
healthy child is full investment, attention, attunement, focus,
attachment, self-sacrificing.
Do all of this.
That's what makes you a goodmom.
Then suddenly those become hergreatest liabilities that are
(00:27):
used against her once herchildren are adults.
We expect this switch to justto happen organically, because
she just needs to know her place.
I view that in a way as likekind of using women.
Have we given any credence toher experience in the attachment
?
Given any credence to herexperience in the?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
attachment.
Hello everyone, welcome to Biteyour Tongue.
The podcast.
I'm Denise.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will join us as we
explore the ins and outs ofbuilding healthy relationships
with our adult children Together.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and
nurture deep connections withour adult children and, of
course, when to bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Hello everyone and welcome toseason four of Bite your Tongue
the podcast.
We are so glad to be back andexcited that you are here with
us.
We're going to cover everythingfrom daughter-in-law issues
(01:27):
being a good mother-in-lawgrandparent and even have a poll
our guest is going to shareabout what bugs young adults the
most and what bugs us.
Let's see if we all agree withthis.
Denise, would you like tointroduce our guest today?
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yes, kirsten, can you believe we're heading into
season four?
This is sort of amazing, butwelcome everyone.
As Kirsten said, we're gladyou're with us.
Today.
We're going to have Rachel Hackand I've been following Rachel
on social media for a long time.
I love all her posts.
I love what she has to say.
Then I looked further into herand she's a mental health
clinician and she has so manydegrees I can't even list them
(02:02):
all.
But what I like most about heris she's walked the walk.
Not only is she a parent tofive children her oldest, I
think, is 18 or 20.
She's also a daughter-in-law.
Both of her kids havegrandparents and she talks
personally about all theseexperiences on her social media
posts and that sort of thing.
We're going to learn a lot fromher today.
(02:22):
I hope all of you like her asmuch as we do.
Welcome, rachel, we're so gladyou're with us today.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Hi, thank you so much for having me Should we get
right to the meat of thisinterview.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Yeah, let's do it, let's talk.
Okay, I love so much of whatyou talk about on Instagram, so
I want to start with.
You're a daughter-in-law.
You've been a daughter-in-lawfor 20 years.
You have an 18-year-olddaughter.
How do you start on the rightfoot with your daughter-in-law?
Your son or daughter bringstheir significant other over,
(02:55):
welcoming not welcoming too much.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Let's start on the right foot.
What's your advice?
Okay, so my advice here?
First, I want to say I actuallyhave no personal experience in
this.
Okay, I guess I'll start bysaying that I did not start off
on the right foot, so I'm not anexpert in that department.
I'm actually more of an experton how to get things back in
alignment when things have goneso terribly wrong foot.
So my mother-in-law and I didnot get along initially in our
(03:20):
relationship.
My husband and I had been highschool sweethearts.
We had dated since we were like16 years old.
I'd known his family and hismom for a few years by the time
we decided to get married and inhigh school it was a very just,
sweet, standard high schoolrelationship between her and I.
She was very kind to me, wouldgive Christmas gifts.
I accompanied them on a trip togo visit him.
(03:41):
In college we went away toseparate schools so I went with
them.
It was a very cordial, kindrelationship and it was really
when my husband and I weredating at the time, through a
real curveball at her.
So I can see that right.
Here is where you begin to have, like these, two very separate
(04:02):
perspectives and, depending onwhich perspective you're looking
at, you can really figure outand see the legitimacy of why
one person feels one way and theother person feels another way.
So my husband announced quiteunexpectedly to his mom that he
was going to be converting to anew faith.
He also.
Within six to nine months wewere engaged, we were getting
(04:23):
married, we were 20 years old,we were in the middle of college
.
We really just threw this righton her lap and really with the
expectation of huh, we're adults, we know what we're doing and
this is totally fine, sheunderstandably, from her
perspective, protested.
Let's say she absolutely wasblindsided by it because my
(04:47):
husband, he's a peacemaker bynature, somewhat conflict
avoidant in that way, so hedidn't really bringing her in on
what his decisions were untilthey were made.
They had a historically veryclose loving relationship.
So she was completelyblindsided by this.
She reacted strongly.
I reacted strongly right backbecause from my perspective it
(05:10):
was like here I am living mylife, I'm an adult, we can make
our decisions.
This is an overbearing, enmeshedmother.
She's behaving like anarcissist.
I don't know about language atthe time, but if I had a TikTok
account and Insta therapy, Iwould have been armed with all
the psychobabble and I wouldhave used it To my perspective.
(05:30):
She's lacking boundaries here.
She's toxic.
She was angry, she was irate.
She absolutely let us know whatshe thought about these
decisions.
She was begging us to think andtake more time and consider
this and he had been raised in adifferent faith.
She wanted time, she wanted toconsult as a family and all of
this, and we were kind of like,no, it's our life, it's our
(05:51):
decision, we're doing it, youcan get on board, or too bad was
how we approached it.
So thank thank God that thiswoman decided to fight for her
relationship with her son.
She decided to get a therapist.
So she said, can we do therapy?
I don't know what voodoo magicthis man worked back in the day
(06:15):
I wasn't in school forcounseling.
None of this was in my evenawareness, but I agreed to go to
these group, family sessionsand individual.
This therapist really did agreat job.
I don't know how he did it, butsomehow I came out feeling
understood.
She came out feeling moreunderstood.
We had a family reconciliationconversation that went very well
(06:38):
and it really changed thetrajectory of us being able to
plan the wedding and go throughthings with civility and some
respect.
I won't say that everythingjust gets buttoned up perfectly.
The next few years it was a lotof little ruptures, mini
ruptures, repairs, as we reallygot to figure each other out
(06:58):
throughout the years.
I worry that if this had beentoday versus 20 years ago, I
really think I probably wouldhave, without any guilt, pursued
the path of like no contact.
This has been too much.
We need to just live our lifeand I would have really missed
out on the opportunity to buildsomething.
That's been that I'm very proudof now.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Now as a therapist and you have people coming to
you, many of them, you say, areover 50 and they're
mother-in-laws.
What advice do you give tothese women, or even
father-in-laws, on someone'sgoing to marry too young,
someone's going to marry out oftheir race, religion, whatever
it might be?
How do you advise people?
I'm in the age where our kidsare getting married and this and
(07:41):
that and how do we become partof their life, but not, like you
said, overbearing, narcissistic, you know that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I think it's really important to examine your
expectations and the sort ofunenforceable rules that come
with your expectations.
Like what is it you're reallydreaming of or expecting when
your son or daughter partnersand ends up with another person?
Are you expecting that thisperson is going to absolutely
(08:12):
want to be a part of your familysystem because you're warm and
you're loving and you invite,and that they're just going to
want to join in and it's goingto be great?
Is that the expectation rightnow?
Is the expectation that in-lawsare a nightmare?
Is that the expectation rightnow?
Is the expectation that in-lawsare a nightmare?
It's like an invasion to yourfamily system.
It's probably going to gopoorly.
The best you can hope for iskind of a distant civil
(08:32):
relationship with each other.
I think we come to the tablewith a lot of unconscious
expectations based on ourhistory, our experiences, what
we've observed, culturalmessages, all of that.
So I recommend that you examineyour expectations and start to
erase them.
Like, the more you can createspace for the unexpected, more
(08:57):
you're going to be able to adaptto create a truly unique story,
because that's what it reallyis going to be.
It's going to be a unique storyof your family and how you all
relate to each other.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
So that's a complicating factor because they
throw stuff back at us and Idon't know that we have the
(09:27):
tools to address whatever'sgoing on there.
Like we don't understand it,we're not going there, we
probably won't be going there.
So how does that play into ushealing those relationships?
Assuming that we set aside theexpectations, because one of the
things I see is a lot of kidsare like oh well, on TikTok,
tiktok, they're saying I shoulddo blah, blah, blah, blah, and
(09:48):
that's the direction they go.
And here we are saying, well,let's do therapy, let's all do
family therapy, and they're likeuh-uh, I got it, I'm doing it
my way.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the first thing I counselparents on with this one,
because I even come with kind ofa heavy critiquing lens on the
whole TikTok insta-therapy worldand the sort of oversimplified
messages, so I come hard at that.
But I don't recommend youactually do that in your
relationship with your child.
So say they're bringing up thewords and you're hearing.
(10:20):
You're like that's that weirdTikTok stuff you guys are
listening to.
This is garbage.
I don't recommend you say that.
I don't recommend you just sayoh, this is all that nonsense.
You guys and your boundariesand whatever.
I don't have to listen to anyof this.
The more defensive of a postureyou assume, it's more evidence
of your guilt, according to theTikTok Insta therapy world.
(10:42):
So defensiveness is never goingto be the posture you want to
approach with this.
So, as hard as that is becauseit is very hard when you're
actually in interaction withyour children in that way, if
you need to go disarm yourdefensiveness with somebody else
and really just pop off, go onabout oh I'm so sick of this, I
don't want to deal with this,I'm feeling so defensive, go
(11:03):
ahead and go do that withsomebody else.
But when you're with your childand you're trying to like
interact, really adopt a postureof curiosity, like, so okay,
what do you?
What do you mean by that?
Let me, okay.
I heard you say boundaries.
What boundaries do you feel arebeing violated right now?
Okay, what would you like me todo differently, and how can and
how would you like to moveforward together?
(11:25):
What do you need from me?
What changes are you seeking?
I think you'll get off to amuch better start if you adopt
that posture versus thedefensive one that
understandably comes upnaturally, but you've got to get
that one in check.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
I think that's really important and I think we're
going to cover some of that whenwe get to this poll, and also
the pros and cons, or the thingsthat you learn from your 50
plus patients.
Anyway, let's move tograndparent real quick.
We're just going over thesethree periods of life real
quickly and then we're going toget into the real meat.
Give us what listeners shouldknow that make a loving
grandparent and what are thepitfalls they should avoid.
(12:01):
Okay, here.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I'll actually give some personal examples because
my children have grandparents onboth sides and they're very
different and they grandparentdifferently.
But I see them very much asthese beautifully unique puzzle
pieces to my girls, like mosaic,that they really fill in very
unique spaces for my girls'hearts in their relational world
.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
I have a question Are all five of your children girls
?
They are yeah, oh, for somereason that didn't click with me
.
Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Five daughters, yeah, and what's weird is my brother
just above me has five boys, sowe can't figure it out really
what's happening.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
So yeah, it's pretty funny.
Oh, my gosh, okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
The family is very large so my kids get a lot in
the grandparent realm of likecousins and chaos and loudness
and activity.
And then on my husband's sideof the family it's smaller and
they get a lot of that reallyfocused attention, quiet,
special trips, things that hisfamily provided in a unique way.
(13:00):
So I love that.
First of all, they have thatblend.
But the feature that both setsof grandparents have in common
that I think is really the thingthat makes them amazing is they
are unabashed cheerleaders oftheir grandchildren cheerleader
(13:26):
to enjoy them, to noticeeverything that's good about
them, to take the photos, toshow up at the celebration you
know the award ceremonies to bereally well-versed in your
grandchildren's strengths.
Let your grandchildren see thatyou're well-versed in those
strengths.
The pitfalls that I see I thinkit's in three categories kind of
criticism, I see.
(13:48):
I think it's in threecategories kind of criticism,
discipline and favoritism.
I think those are pitfalls ingrandparenting.
So a grandparent might seethings that they think are
deficits in their grandchild,things that need to be corrected
behaviorally.
You know, you really need toteach them this.
Have you noticed that they dothat Again, I just don't think,
from a strategic place, it'swise to go with that route.
You might think you're helping,but often your child is just
(14:10):
feeling judged.
They don't want to feel judged,so they'll remove themselves
from areas that they feel judged.
Your grandchild doesn't want tofeel judged either, so they're
less likely also to solicit youropinion or your advice.
And when you're alreadyoffering up judgment in the form
of criticism, so that's apitfall.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Okay, so you're their greatest cheerleader.
You see the positive.
Now your son or daughter comesto you for advice.
Okay, I'm struggling withSally's X, y or Z.
Are you allowed then to sayyeah, I've seen that too.
Or here are some ideas.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, okay, cause I worry.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Then I'm suddenly not a cheerleader, I'm saying
that's something, yeah, you know, whatever.
I just wonder if I can thengive a little bit of suggestion.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Absolutely.
I think when you're asked foradvice like that's such an
important role you serve as anelder, a mentor, a parent, a
guide that they will need thatsort of advice from time to time
.
They'll feel more safe to cometo you with it when you haven't
already been offering it hereand there.
I also think that you are in aunique position, too, to help
(15:20):
your child keep their child inperspective.
So if you're really well-versedin your grandchild's strengths,
you can help remind your childkeep their child in perspective.
So if you're really well-versedin your grandchild's strengths,
you can help remind your childof that, to help them buffer
their own anxieties and concernsas a parent and keep it in
context.
So, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
I love that too, because if the parent's really
concerned, you can say you knowwhat, I see all of her strengths
and it doesn't seem anything toworry about.
But if you're what, I see allof her strengths and it doesn't
seem anything to worry about.
But if you're worried you cantalk to the doctor.
You don't want to play downeverything On Instagram.
You took a poll.
I was so shocked at the hugereplies you got.
(15:57):
You asked young adults whatbugs them the most about their
parents and then you askedparents what bugs them most
about their young adults.
I think the listeners will besurprised.
Let's start with the number onething was bad-mouthing your
siblings.
So this is your adult parentbad-mouthing a sibling to
another sibling, meaning I wouldsay to my daughter your
brother's driving me crazy.
I wish he would do this,because I do this sometimes.
(16:19):
I'll say could you call yoursister?
And that's really the wrongthing to do.
I'm sure I'll say you know shecan't make a decision on this.
Can you call her and help her,or will you tell her she needs
to do this and that's bad, huh.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
It can be.
It's so hard because I don'tthink there's any real black and
white rules here.
So what you're kind of alludingto is the triangulation that
can happen in families, right?
So you're having conflict andtension with one child and so
it's kind of like you rope inanother child, express to them.
They seem to be listening orthey're more understanding, so
(16:56):
you end up sharing more withthem, and then sometimes they
can help in the role ofmediation, right?
Like, can you talk to yourbrother about this?
Sometimes that can be helpfuland beneficial.
Other times it can just reallystart to burden the whole system
because you start avoiding moreand more the direct
conversation that needs to behad, because there's too much
(17:16):
anxiety around that and there'stoo much volatility.
Instead of addressing that,it's like I can go over here and
unburden myself in this way andmaybe this child will help take
care of that.
So I do recommend caution indoing that.
I think that when you're havinginterpersonal conflict of any
(17:37):
kind, try to keep the lines asdirect as possible.
If you need more support, pullit from an outside source.
That's more objective than thefamily members that are so
deeply involved in all of therelationships there.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Well, and typically what happens to me?
If the siblings have a goodrelationship, they tell each
other.
Mom told me to call you.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, Well, and I think too, when there's just an
explicit understanding too, that, hey, I talked to mom, you know
she asked me to talk to you.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
She's worried about this right?
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, I think that that's better than pretending
we're not talking behind thescenes and everyone forgets and
can't keep track of the secretsof who said what to who and said
not to say it.
It just can get really messylike that.
I think it's okay to give someleeway for the fact that we talk
about each other in the family,Like that's just something we
do, but if it's coming from aplace of goodwill and an attempt
(18:33):
to reconcile versus just anattempt to feel heard and
justified in my position anddon't you understand me that's
important that we're reallyclear about what's my goal in
saying this to the sibling.
I'm actually thinking this isgoing to help aid in
reconciliation or is this justme getting to unburden to my
child?
Who's a better listener?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
So one of the other things that came up in your poll
is that, from the kid'sperspective, is that parents
never got to know the child asan individual.
Tell us about this.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I think that there are children, once they become
adults, they really feel like myparent doesn't actually know me
, like they don't know what I doat work.
They don't know my friends,they're not very curious about
that.
I start to really confront thefact that I really felt like I'm
a piece in my parents play intheir story and in their dreams
(19:25):
and I felt that way for a longtime instead of really feeling
like they know a lot about meand my dreams and that
absolutely can happen.
I mean, you can have parentsthat are just very much wrapped
up in the dream of what theywere building for their family
and their life.
The children are just supposedto integrate and follow along
and obey and do it the way we doit.
In those types of systems thatI would call very low in
(19:47):
differentiation, oftentimes anindividual child will feel
unknown because anytime if theytried to express what was
different about them, it waskind of clamped down on because
it didn't really match with thebroader system and what the
parents wanted to think of thefamily as.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Yeah, it makes sense.
But I'm wondering, as a parentof an adult child, how do we
know whether we've done that?
Can we ask the child?
You know, I read somewhere thatsometimes kids don't feel seen?
What if we have been doing thatall along and now we want to
change our ways?
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yeah, well, what you just said there I loved, which
is I read something somewhere.
Sometimes kids feel likethey're not seen, and that
really bothered me because Ithought have I done that in any
way?
If I have, I really want toknow.
A question that I like to haveparents ask their kids is to say
I know I have blind spots, sowould you help point them out to
(20:43):
me when we go?
And we do it with that approach.
Oftentimes our children willrespond and they'll be
appreciative too that we've justacknowledged we have blind
spots and we'd like to learnmore, and I find that they will
deliver their feedback moregently too in those moments.
So it doesn't feel as woundingbecause it is wounding to hear
(21:03):
your blind spots.
Nobody likes that we have them.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
We know everyone does this.
This is just across the board,I don't know how outwardly.
So I guess we want some adviceon how to either completely bite
our tongues or and here's theissue being critical of the
child's choices or not beingsupportive.
So, whatever it might be, yourchild who was going to be a
doctor is now an artist livingon a growing organic food up in
(21:28):
Wisconsin or something, and youwere dreaming of the child that
was a doctor, or lots ofdifferent choices they make.
How do we bite our tongues, Iguess?
But also, are we allowed to letthem know how we feel?
What do we do?
Speaker 1 (21:42):
I think this one goes back to really examining your
expectations and your dreams.
So we have dreams for ourchildren as parents.
Of course we do.
We really see so much potentialin them and we picture things
going a certain way for them,and so sometimes we need to
grieve our dreams.
And it's okay to grieve yourown dreams.
(22:03):
But I think when you share thatdisappointment with your child,
you're making them responsiblefor your grief then and you're
really communicatingdisappointment in them.
So I think you have to askyourself is that really the
message I want them to ingest?
For me, Is this sort ofexistential disappointment that
(22:26):
they aren't doing what I hopedthey would do.
When I talk with parents likethat, most of them go absolutely
not.
I don't want that to be theresonating theme of my child's
life.
So if you don't, then you dohave to bite your tongue and
also clean the slate ofexpectations and be open to a
(22:48):
new story with your child thatthere's something unique going
on here and it might just bebeautiful.
I recently counseled with afamily.
There was a lot of frictionleading up to a wedding.
It looks like everything wasgoing to really go to crap
pretty fast, but we were able todo some really great work
together and to salvage things.
They had a wonderful weddingand later the dad expressed and
(23:11):
said you know, I've reallylearned a lesson in this.
I've learned that I need tohave more faith in people and I
need to have more faith in theprocess.
That even though I'm not incontrol and it's not being done
the way I want to do it or howit would be, that it could turn
out really beautifully too, it'snot being done the way I want
to do it or how it would be,that it could turn out really
beautifully too.
That's a resonating theme evenin my own life with my
mother-in-law that when sheyielded and just showed up as a
(23:34):
support figure, she really didit so well.
And we've been throughvariations, even in our faith.
We, the faith that my husbandconverted to we 10 years later,
left that faith.
So she's there as a supportingfigure through every chapter,
every decision we've made that Iknow she never agreed with
exactly or would have done thatway, but just that theme of
(23:55):
support in all my variations hasbuilt a sense of real trust and
comfort in the relationshipthat I think a lot of parents
yearn for.
They want their children, tosee them that way.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
I want to add something For those listening.
If you listened to our PrideMonth episode last season with
Matthew Rodriguez, he saidsomething to me because I said
to him don't parents have anopportunity to grieve what their
dreams were for their child?
They had a little girl and nowthe little girl's a little boy.
And he just point blank lookedat me and said maybe when they
imagine, they ought to imaginebigger.
(24:27):
Instead of she's going to growup to be a bride, I'm going to
walk her down the aisle, she'sgoing to get married.
Maybe there's a larger worldout there that we're forgetting
to imagine.
And I really love the way hesaid that.
He said something like it's notthe Cinderella story anymore.
I loved it.
It's really stuck with me.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
And to echo that there was an interview, I think
it was, with Cheryl is itSandberg?
She's the.
I remembered when her husbandpassed away suddenly and she was
in the process.
There was something that reallystruck me.
She said you know, sometimeslife does not go according to
plan A, and when it doesn't, wehave to learn to kick the shit
out of plan B, and I think wecan adopt that as parents too.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
That I like that.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, but how can I kick the shit out of Plan B here
?
Speaker 4 (25:12):
I think that was the name of her book.
Plan B, Was it Plan?
B, I think that was the name ofher book.
Plan B yeah, Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
So this one's kind of a hot button of mine and uses
the word trauma Parentsdownplaying or dismissing the
trauma in a child's life ormarriage in their experience,
what they view as trauma.
The reason why this is a hotbutton for me is because I
overhear the word trauma beingused for things that to me that
(25:41):
was growing up, it's life.
So this word trauma triggerssome things for me.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Triggers, some trauma .
Triggers, some trauma.
I'm like guys, what this?
Speaker 3 (25:52):
isn't trauma.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So anyway, if you could explain a little bit more
about what you were hearing onthat.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yes, there's actually a therapist online called Joe
Nucci Joe Nucci Therapy, and hedid this video called I'm so
over the cult of trauma.
I think that that's what a lotof parents are feeling is just
this word.
It's taking on a new meaningand first of all, yes, it has
taken on a new meaning.
Like trauma has undergone whatwe call concept creep, which is
it's expanded in the boundariesconceptually, what we consider
(26:24):
trauma, what we consider harmfulbehavior.
So we use that word to describea lot many more things than
historically we've ever usedthat word for.
This is an example of where Ithink it's so easy to inhabit
the defensive posture.
When that comes up, you hearyour kids say trauma, give me a
break.
Like you want to know trauma,I'll tell you trauma.
(26:47):
Like, or I actually have traumain my history, or you don't
know trauma.
So, again, not a strategic move, though.
Even if it's correct, it's notstrategic for the relationship.
So when that comes up, you'regoing to want to again adopt the
posture of curiosity.
So it's okay.
(27:07):
What do you mean by that?
How do you think that'simpacted you?
You can even avoid saying theword.
You don't have to say traumaback to them, but you can say
tell me how this was traumaticfor you, help me understand, and
I also want to understand whatyou consider trauma.
What does that word mean to you?
If you can come from thatposture again, you might learn a
lot as far as, yeah, maybe youwouldn't name it trauma, but
(27:31):
there was some uncertain thingthat happened in their life that
changed the way they thoughtabout themselves at that time,
or they felt like their trustwas betrayed or something.
They went through a really darkperiod emotionally following
something happening and thatneeds to be fleshed out.
And what a great opportunity ifthey'll do it with you, like if
(27:51):
we can kind of get over ourhang up about the name and the
way that we think about it.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
yeah, the words used without dismissing the actual
experience.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I think the trauma.
When people use that word, I'llsometimes substitute it in my
mind as an experience thatreally shaped me in some way.
So if I think in my head, okay,this was an experience that
shaped them in some way andthey're probably thinking it has
shaped me for the worse, insome way it's impacted me
negatively.
I need to find out what thosenegative impacts are and what we
(28:25):
can do about them to find outwhat those negative impacts are
and what we can do about them.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Right, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
All right, this is a hot onefor me, and I just actually read
or heard something about it too.
So the son gets married, andwhen a son marries, his
allegiance is now to his wife.
I do believe that that's hardfor the mom.
So the kids say this is abiggie when the mother doesn't
understand that the son'sallegiance now is to the wife.
(28:50):
Do you agree with that?
How can the mom approach this?
And mother sons have a reallyinteresting relationship.
I think in most cases themother feels attached to her son
.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Okay, I have a lot to sayoration how beautiful the
mom and her baby and this boyand he loves his mama and she
loves him and it's the mostprecious sweet thing and
everybody loves that.
And then it's like a switchgets flipped.
When he becomes an adult it'ssuddenly a one of disgust.
It's like if there's closeness,if that bond is still there, if
(29:46):
there's any allegiance still tothat bond in any way, it's
often viewed through yeah, it'sdisgust, it's and we question
his masculinity of like you're areal mama's boy.
We also like to test theirmasculinity of like you got to
prove to me now as your wifethat I'm more than her.
I think it's a very like binaryway of looking at things,
(30:09):
because I think it's entirelypossible for a son to have full
allegiance to his marriage andhis wife and to have allegiance
to a relationship with hismother in the broader system,
for those two things to be keptseparate.
That there's kind of like your,there's your nuclear unit where
you reign supreme right, yourdecisions and your autonomy
there, and then there's kind oflike your, there's your nuclear
unit where you reign supremeright, your decisions and your
(30:30):
autonomy there, and then there'sthe extended, broader family
system that it might be okay toshow a little deference to.
One of the reasons I think it'simportant to maybe consider this
is because I think it'salarmingly cruel what we do to
women.
When we basically tell themthat what you need to raise a
(30:51):
healthy child is full investment, attention, attunement, focus,
attachment, self-sacrificing doall of this.
That's what makes you a goodmom.
Then suddenly those become hergreatest liabilities that are
used against her once herchildren are adults.
We expect this switch to justto happen organically, that she
(31:12):
just needs to know her place.
I view that in a way as likekind of using women.
Have we given any credence toher experience in the attachment
Like?
When we talk about attachmentbonds, we're always talking
about it to the benefit of thechild and we don't pay a whole
lot of attention to the how muchthis changes the mother, how
(31:33):
deeply this impacts her.
And so when that bond, if thatbond is just completely broken
and cut off, cut the apronstrings, you don't need her
anymore.
Her involvement is superfluousand integrating her in is just
inconvenient to your wife.
So you need to go with yourwife's preferences on all of
this.
I see it as really discarding awoman in the system.
(31:54):
I like to advocate for thetruth that inside all of us we
are girls.
We are girls who want to belongand need love and want to
belong in our family systems.
When we get too callous aboutthis without ever taking into
account the mother-in-law'sexperience, the mom's experience
of loss necessary loss, yes,like you're supposed to lose
(32:18):
your child in that sense, totheir marriage, to their life
but there's grief and there'spain and there's fear that comes
with that.
But there's grief and there'spain and there's fear that comes
with that.
And oftentimes a woman goingthrough that protests or has an
emotional reaction to it.
Instead of that being sort ofnormalized or viewed with some
(32:39):
compassion, I see it reallypathologized.
Oh, this is how dysfunctionalshe is.
She's whining about him nottexting her enough in the week.
So I kind of first see that as,oh, that's a protest behavior,
about loss.
That's something she'sexperiencing and while the
behavior might not be excusablelike we don't need to guilt trip
and maybe she's beingoverbearing with what she's
(33:00):
doing or trying how she's tryingto go about it, I think that we
we could seriously benefit froma little bit more compassion in
this area towards mothers andmothers-in-law with adult
children.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Well, I think you're right on some aspects of it.
I think it just depends on thesituation, because we put our
sons in a tough situation whenthe mom I mean I don't want to
say know her place, because Iunderstand everything you're
saying okay, but if the wife issaying your mother wants me to
do this, this and this all thetime, or your mother is not
(33:35):
being understanding that wecan't go to Christmas, or your
mother is coming into our housewithout knocking or not even
letting me know that she'scoming over, she says to her son
you've got to talk to yourmother.
I've tried.
Now we put our son in thissituation and I do think at that
point it is the son's role tosay listen, my wife's really
struggling with this.
(33:56):
She's talked to you a lot aboutthis.
I love you very much, but I dohave another nuclear family.
You know what I mean.
There's a real catch 22 in this.
I agree absolutely what yousaid and when it's done right,
it should be done the way you'resaying.
The mother can be valued byboth the daughter-in-law and the
son.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yes, absolutely, and in those cases I would say that
that is, a person has notconfronted or accepted the
necessary loss that's involvedhere.
I also think of it as it's notlike second-class citizenship.
It's just there's primary,there's the primary role of what
your adult child needs to do intheir life to create their,
(34:36):
their stability in theirrelationships.
And then there's the secondarysupportive roles, and it's like
you are shifting now to thesecondary supportive role
Exactly Of their main eventright, exactly.
Exactly the secondary supportiverole of exactly an event, right
, exactly, exactly, absolutely.
There are absolutely behaviorsthat just totally cross the line
, cross boundaries.
We need to have them, but I, Ithink I would add that I'm kind
(34:59):
of curious about the way that westill do it through the sun,
like in these cases.
I see it a lot, right, you, I'mlike it's 2024 ladies, we're
grown ass women and we can havedirect conversations with each
other.
Like I don't necessarily needto go through my husband and be
like you need to go say this toyour mom, you need to go to this
(35:19):
room and when it gets to mom,mom already knows that it's
coming through daughter-in-lawanyway.
So it's like why don't we justconfront the anxiety and the
difficulty of learning tocommunicate with each other and
laying down the boundaries witheach other, instead of sort of
triangulating the son in aparticular way that puts strain
(35:41):
on the marriage and puts strainbetween the two of them?
I know that I don't hear anyoneelse advocating it this way,
but I do.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
I'm kind of like you're a big girl.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
I think you're right.
I think you're a hundredpercent right.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
If you can bring it out.
A lot of it also depends on thepersonality of the wife and the
husband.
I'm more talkative than myhusband and sometimes I want you
need to speak up and tell yourmom too.
I can't be the only one, sothere's so much going on here.
But you're absolutely right,bring it out.
Okay, let's get to the parents.
Yeah, let's do the parents Okay, so go ahead.
(36:14):
Kirsten, you can take the firstone.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
So the first one is minimizing your experience or
your knowledge.
I mean, we've all had a lot ofit by the time we have adult
children, so how do we navigatethat?
They don't really care aboutour experience, they don't.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
They don't and it's such a bummer because it's like
we have so much to offer and somany.
It's like you could avoid somany unnecessary detours if you
just absorb my wisdom here.
But I really think it's againthat the inverse of the
relationship of those who knowthe most know, to say the least.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
Oh, I like that.
Say that one more time.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Okay, so those who know the most know, to say the
least.
If we know what it's like to bea young adult or an adult that's
getting started, we should knowthat we had our own levels of
ignorance and confidence at thattime.
That's actually what my grandpamy grandpa always said ignorance
and confidence.
It's like the feature of youthand it's true.
(37:17):
It's like we really don't knowwhat we're doing, but we have
this sort of like crazyconfidence sometimes to our
approach and the new things weknow and we think everything is
old that our parents know.
And it's really a part of thedevelopmental process that your
child at that point is in thatthey think they know more than
you and they think that yourinformation is old and outdated.
(37:41):
But that is part of the processand often, as the years go on,
it starts to make more sense tothem the things that you once
said or the way that you liveyour life or the values that
you've sort of demonstratedthroughout your time as a parent
and I find that a lot of kidsstart absorbing that, but not so
much later in life, and youmight not ever get that
(38:02):
vindication, Like your childmight not ever validate your way
of seeing things.
I think that's again anothernecessary loss of parenting.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
So it has a lot to do with the whole idea of people
learn best by doing, and so theymay need to make some of those
mistakes and I guess, if we'vedone our job when they're
younger, you hope that themistakes that they do make and
the decisions they make as theyare adults, that they're
comfortable with, whatever theconsequences are, and be able to
say, okay, that's your path,that's your life.
(38:33):
I just raised you to beindependent.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
This next one is one that I think myself and a lot of
my friends talk about a lot,mostly the critical part.
Young adults tend to be verycritical of their parents in
terms of wanting them to sayeverything politically correct,
not talking so much to thewaitress in the restaurant I
could come up with a thousandthings.
Don't talk to the checkoutwoman.
Why do you have to telleveryone everything?
(38:59):
Why do we have to change somuch to make them happy?
They seem a little selfish intheir control of who we are.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Knowing who you are as a parent, versus allowing
your child to define you basedon their critiques.
Like there's a way that we cango at parenting where we're
really seeking their validationof us, like am I doing it right?
Okay, let me change.
And then there's another way ofbeing really grounded in our
values and our principles as whowe wanna be and then leading
(39:28):
from that place so that evenwhen our kid is lobbying every
little criticism about things,when we demonstrate a comfort
with ourself sometimes that'slike the best thing we can model
to our child is I'm kind ofokay being the weird, quirky mom
who talks too much to thewaitress.
I'm sorry that bothers you, butI'm okay with it.
Instead of why do you thinkthat about me?
(39:48):
I'm not like that.
No, it's kind of like we needthem to be okay with it or we
have to change it.
When there's another stance herewhich is I'm okay with my
quirky, weird mess.
That you're that or that you'reseeing is not okay, I'm
actually okay with it.
But there's other times whenour child is pointing out a
blind spot.
(40:09):
It's like we can self-reflecton that and think do I do?
Do that?
I didn't realize I do that andnow that it's more consciously,
I'm more conscious of it.
Now I have a choice Am I okaywith it?
Is it part of who I am and I'mfine with that, or is it
something that I'm actually notso fine with and I would like to
change?
So cause, yeah, I do think yourkids are constantly critiquing
(40:31):
or making fun of I think it'salso part of that them wrestling
with the fact that, as they getolder, parents get removed from
the hero status in our minds,the simplified version that we
have of the all-knowing,competent person.
And we're just sort of likeobserving this humanity to them.
The more a parent candemonstrate that I'm comfortable
(40:52):
with my humanity, like I'mcomfortable, I'm okay with who I
am, am, and can demonstratethat to their child in those
conversations without flippingout and being like why do you
always think this about me?
I don't like that you thinkthis about me and I'm so upset
that you said that about meinstead of thinking or
approaching it for more of aplace of yeah, I do that, I do.
I talk a lot to the Uber driver.
(41:13):
I like to talk to the Uberdriver.
I like to talk to the Uberdrivers.
It's okay that you don't liketo talk to the Uber drivers.
That's a joke.
Speaker 4 (41:20):
No, no, no, that's exactly.
So, yeah, you've been there.
You've been there.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Okay, the next one is refusing to communicate to
solve problems, and also howthat somehow allows them to hold
access to our grandchildren.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
You're asking that like when the children refuse to
communicate.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Yeah, we've actually gotten a lot of letters on this,
and I almost want to combinethis with the next question.
If that's okay, they don't wantto solve the problem, so then
they don't include us.
We don't see the grandchildren,as often A lot of parents of
adult kids feel that way.
They live an hour away, theyoffer to help, but the kid
doesn't want them there.
How do they deal with that?
Speaker 1 (41:59):
So I think that one cannot not communicate.
It's like a mantra.
When we are actually giving thesilent treatment, that's a form
of communication, right, we canbring that explicitly to the
forefront.
You can say I'm troubled thatour communication seems to be
primarily just silent treatment.
(42:20):
I say something and you don'trespond.
Can we work on that?
Is that something we can figureout?
I do find that a lot of timeskids they stop talking to the
parents after there's beenalready some red flags going on,
that a parent can pick up onthe communication that they have
(42:40):
attempted at multiple times,but it's going poorly each time.
It's like it's escalating intosomething, or there's just
defense and criticism cyclesgoing back and forth and then
the withdrawal happens.
If you can look in your historyand you have your child who is
refusing to communicate, youmight want to look back and say,
okay, what were the last fewtimes when we addressed this?
(43:02):
What actually happened there?
And do I need to bring that upwhen I ask them to have another
conversation?
So I know we've attempted thisconversation a couple of times
before.
I want to apologize.
I said that thing, or I saidthat your wife was behind all of
this, just trying to ruin thefamily or whatever it is, and I
think that maybe that's whyyou're not wanting to have a
(43:23):
conversation now with me.
Would you be open to tryingagain?
Would you be open to attendingfamily therapy?
Pick the therapist, you canoffer those kinds of options.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
You say you have a lot of patients over 50.
They've had this greatrelationship with their kid.
Now they're walking oneggshells.
I want to talk about threethings.
You talk about that sometimesadult parents can do
Stonewalling, defensiveness andpassive aggressiveness.
Explain them what they mean andhow we do it.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Okay.
So stonewalling is actually aninvoluntary response in us.
We don't intentionally do it.
It's just like when you are inconflict and arguing with
somebody and you just get tothat place you're like I can't
anymore.
I can't, I have nothing more, Idon't want to talk, I don't
want to say anything.
You can feel yourself sort ofjust like stoning up, Like I,
I'm so upset, I need to withdrawinto myself in that moment and
(44:18):
to withdraw into myself in thatmoment.
And so someone who's stonewallsthey might they emotionally
withdraw.
They won't come to the tablefor the conversation anymore
because it's too upsetting.
It often looks like the silenttreatment too.
They withdraw everything andjust kind of clam up we're not
going there anymore.
If you find yourself doing thatas a parent, like I see it where
a parent and their adult childthe adult child criticizes,
(44:40):
gives feedback on something thatreally has bothered them about
the parent and the parent is sowounded by that they feel
misunderstood and they're hurt.
Parent shuts down.
Nope, If that's the way they'regoing to talk to me, if that's
how they actually feel about me,I'm done the emotion that shows
up when that happens.
(45:01):
We can't move beyond that untilwe learn to self-soothe and
figure out okay, can I getmyself regular enough and calm
enough that I will reinitiatethis conversation to seek a
repair again?
But sometimes, when we get tothe stone wall phase, we just
shut down and then everythinggets swept under the rug or the
relationship becomes more andmore distant, or we start faking
(45:24):
that things are okay whenthey're not because we can't go
there Interesting.
Speaker 4 (45:30):
Okay, defensiveness.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Defensiveness is just basically like not taking
accountability.
You know you make excuses oryou are in denial.
So, like a common, exaggeratedexample, your child says you
forgot my birthday when I was 14and left my friends and I at
the mall that day.
And the mom goes oh, I guess Iwas okay.
(45:54):
All right, I was a neglectfulmom, I never loved you, I didn't
care for you enough.
I'm just so terrible.
And she kind of has this reallyinflated response to this
criticism or this memory and inthat moment all your child is
learning is don't say anythingto mom.
It's not safe to actually workout and figure out and get some
(46:16):
understanding in thesedepartments if it's going to be
something that mom feelsdefensive about.
So what should mom say?
So when you feel thatdefensiveness arising, you can
actually just say did I forgether at the mall that day?
Oh, I did.
I did.
I forgot your thing that day.
(46:36):
I'm so sorry.
That was definitely not myintention, but I'm sorry.
Tell me more about what thatday was like for you.
So that would be to adopt thenon-defensive posture.
The defensive posture mightlook a little bit more like well
, I need you to understand thatI had three other kids to take
care of and I was working twojobs at the time and I don't
(46:58):
really appreciate that you'rebringing up you know that I'm
somehow some kind of neglectfulmother because I forgot you at
the mall that day.
Right, that's a defensiveposture.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
It's understandable.
It's understandable that wefeel that way because we have
the whole history here, Rightand but your child has a
perspective and it's and it'sworth exploring with them.
Speaker 4 (47:17):
A lot of work on our part, kirsten.
Always have to think about whatto say, how to react.
Ok, passive aggressiveness Idon't understand this completely
.
In fact, you and I were talkingabout that, kirsten, at one
point.
What does it mean when a parentis passive aggressive?
Speaker 1 (47:32):
So it's kind of expressing negative feelings
indirectly rather than openly.
Giving the silent treatment isa very passive, aggressive form
of communication.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Because you know inside you're seething right,
but you're not coming out andsaying anything because you're
stonewalling.
No, I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
I'm fine, it's fine.
No, I'm good, I'm good.
Aggressive form of silenttreatment and response right,
right, I don't have any needs,don't expect me to.
Okay, you know, that's kind ofpassive aggressive, like you are
bothered but you're sayingyou're not bothered.
Everyone's confused now.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
So one of my kids was home for the holidays and they
were leaving for the airport inan hour and no packing was done.
I was trying not to be nudgy,but I was saying things like do
you think you should be readingthat now?
Do you think maybe you shouldbe starting to pack?
And they said to me you know,you're kind of being passive,
aggressive and I wasn't surewhat that meant at that point.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Okay, so in that moment I'm guessing you felt
something.
Oh yeah, I was really mad thatthey weren't packing.
What you're feeling is you'remad.
So it's like I feel mad rightnow.
So I feel mad because my kidsaren't packing and they need to
get to the airport.
I feel mad because they shouldbe more responsible in this or
they should be timekeeping morethan this.
So you can choose to go at itthat way and just directly say
(48:52):
I'm mad, you guys should bepacked already.
And and I'll say then that atleast is not passive, it's
somewhat aggressive if direct.
But you could also look at itand say are these my adult
children?
If they miss the flight, am Ithe one paying for it or are
they the one paying for it?
You know, your response mightbe different.
(49:14):
Like, is it?
It's understandable for me tobe mad about this.
It's irritating, but is itsomething I need to bring up?
Or is this one of those thingsI can practice like a healthy
non-attachment to?
Like?
You know what, however you guysget to the airport is on you,
so long as I'm not paying forthe tickets, I might need to say
I'm actually mad because I paidfor these tickets and I want
you to get to the airport ontime.
Speaker 4 (49:34):
So I like the way you said something about not
non-attachment.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
What did you say?
I thought practicing healthynon-attachment.
Speaker 4 (49:41):
Yeah, healthy non-attachment.
I really like that it's notsilent treatment.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
It's not I don't care about you guys, whatever, I'm
just not going to care.
It's just I'm choosing in thismoment that this is not what I'm
going to attach to you gettingto the airport on time Not what
I'm going to attach to yougetting to the airport on time.
I'm mad right now about the wayyou guys are managing time and
packing, but I could choose inthat moment to just healthy
non-attachment.
Speaker 4 (50:02):
With five kids, you have to practice non-attachment
all the time, don't you?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Although I will say I'm still in the phase of really
active parenting, in that Ionly have one adult child and
four that aren't, so I sort ofknow that I have these
challenges coming my way.
There's the saying they knowthe literature but not the life.
I know a lot of the literature.
I don't exactly know the lifedirectly as the mom yet of all
these children Right and andyour adult child.
Speaker 3 (50:34):
You've still got some stuff coming up, which is why
our podcasts exist.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
Yeah, these are the early years.
Your daughter's only 18.
You're at the way beginning.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
No, I need all the time, all the advice, all I need
it all.
I think maybe this is a part ofthat process too developing
more compassion as we gothroughout our lifespan.
For others including our ownmothers, our own mother-in-laws
like this is so much harder whenyou're doing it.
Speaker 4 (51:02):
Well, and also, like you said, you're in active
parenting.
It's hard to flip that switchright off.
Yeah, you know so that's reallyyeah, you got to flip the
switch suddenly.
And when do you?
Speaker 1 (51:14):
I'm like are you still going to check in when you
get home, like, like, I'd likea text you know, like wait, no,
she doesn't have to tell me whenshe's home, but how will I know
she's safe?
I guess I just have to practicehealthy non-attachment.
But she's going to be out theredoing her thing and I don't get
to know every single day thatshe's home safe If she doesn't
text or call or whatever.
(51:34):
I just have to work on that.
Speaker 3 (51:37):
So there are two great questions that you suggest
parents of young adults ask.
Would you be willing to askthose and explain why they're
important?
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yes, I think that these are kind of my two ideal
questions that both the parentcan ask to their adult child and
an adult child could ask totheir parent.
Okay, first one is how can Ishow up for you as a parent now,
at this point in your life?
So I think that captures theever-changing nature of our role
(52:07):
as parents and checking in withour kid.
What do you actually need fromme at this point in your life?
Because it's going to bedifferent than what you needed
from me 10 years ago.
Speaker 4 (52:16):
Or two years ago or a month ago.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Yes, Especially with how much things can change in
adulthood for them, right,exactly.
And then I think it's sohelpful for your adult child to
ask their parent is whatfeedback do you think would be
helpful for me to hear?
Speaker 4 (52:36):
And what do you mean by that?
What are we asking exactly inthat question Like?
Speaker 1 (52:40):
as a kid.
It's kind of like mom or dadhelped me see my blind spots.
I know I have them.
I'm an adult.
Part of my adulting is knowingthat I have blind spots too and
my parents sees me in aparticular way and I could use
some feedback on my life.
Sometimes we want it, sometimeswe don't, and we avoid it
because we don't want to hearwhat they have to say, because
we might be dealing with our ownshame about our own choices.
(53:03):
We don't like where we're at inlife.
But other times it's like Ineed you to help me see my blind
spots.
I do that sometimes with my mom, like, help me, what am I not
doing as a mom?
What do you see with my kids?
What is it that you think wouldbe helpful for me to know?
Speaker 4 (53:20):
And my guess is that question doesn't come out until
they pass that phase ofignorance.
And what was it?
Ignorance and Ignorance andconfidence.
Ignorance and confidence.
That's exactly right.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
If you find that an adult child, you're doing a good
job, don't worry.
Speaker 4 (53:36):
That child.
You're doing a good job, don'tworry.
That's exactly right, exactlyAll right.
So, as we wrap up, we alwaysask our guests to leave our
listeners with two key pointsthey want them to take away from
this interview.
Can you share with your two keypoints you hope our listeners
will take away?
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Yeah, I haven't said this actually yet, but I think
it will encapsulate a lot ofwhat we talked about.
I think we're living in aunique era right now where we
have an allergy to ambivalence.
Ambivalence is really thepresence of conflicting emotions
.
It's kind of the love and theloathing, the needing someone
and feeling burdened by them.
Motherhood captures this reallywell, because every mother
(54:12):
knows I love my child, I woulddo anything for my child and I
just want them to go away for afew hours and leave me alone and
let me have some peace.
How can you think, coexist atthe same time they do.
That's part of what it is to bea loving human in a loving
relationship.
I think that we are in an eraright now where we really want
to collapse this ambivalence.
We don't like it.
(54:32):
It has to be all or nothing.
I think, when that plays out,particularly in family
relationships and parentingrelationships, that we fail to
make space for the naturalcomplexity and complication that
just arises as our childrengrow older, as our lives become
(54:52):
increasingly layered, as moreand more people enter into the
family system.
I think if we could developmore distress tolerance for
ambivalence or just tolerancefor ambivalence, then our
relationships are going to gomuch better.
That's my main takeaway, orwhat I hope people take away is
that your family is complex andcomplicated, not because you're
(55:12):
particularly dysfunctional andawful and you failed as a parent
, but because these things arenaturally so.
The more we can create somecompassion for that reality, the
better our relationships aregoing to go with each other.
Speaker 4 (55:27):
I love that.
It's kind of like give up theperfection.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
Yes, I actually have a post that said stop trying to
create the perfect family.
Right, exactly, well, except wewill we will share your
Instagram account.
Speaker 4 (55:39):
You want to tell everyone what your handle is
right now, before we go.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
Yeah, it's just my name, rachel Hawk, and like hack
H, a, a, c, k.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (55:48):
That's never misspelled, right Right, it's
mispronounced all the time.
Rachel, thank you so much forjoining us.
You're just really a breath offresh air we really appreciate
it.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
Thank you, this is great.
Well, I appreciate being here.
It was really fun.
Thank you, okay, take care.
Speaker 4 (56:06):
So that's a wrap.
I really enjoyed it, kirsten.
We covered some of the sametopics we've talked about, but
with a whole new perspective,and I hope some of you watch
this on YouTube because she'spretty amazing, and check out
her Instagram at Rachel Hawk atR-A-C-H-E-L-H-A-A-C-K.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
Yeah, definitely worth following her on Instagram
If you're somebody that is onthere.
I think that her perspectivetakes into account where we are
and who we are, and there's atwist to it.
Well worth it for all of, notjust for us, but also for our
adult children, I think wouldgive them a little bit of
perspective.
Speaker 4 (56:43):
Absolutely.
And thank you Connie GornFisher again, our absolutely
extraordinary audio engineer.
She has just done so much forthis podcast behind the scenes.
Check out our website,biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
You can press our support tabthere.
Donate.
We still need money, guys, tokeep going.
(57:03):
So thanks again and remembersometimes you just have to bite
your tongue.
Speaker 3 (57:08):
Thank, you.
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