April 4, 2025 • 57 mins
We are doing an episode rewind today on our most downloaded episode - Mothers and Daughters. This relationship carries a unique intensity that often follows us well into adulthood. When does healthy involvement cross into control? How do we navigate the painful territory when our adult daughters push us away?
Certified life coach and mother/daughter expert Pam Tronson joins us to unravel the complicated dynamics of mother-daughter relationships with refreshing honesty. Drawing from her professional expertise and personal struggles with her own adult daughters, Pam gets straight to the heart of what makes these relationships simultaneously precious and challenging.
"We were expected to be in control," Pam explains, pinpointing why the transition to parenting adults feels so disorienting. "That was part of our job description." The expectation to curate, orchestrate, and manage gradually gives way to a new reality – watching from the sidelines as our children build independent lives. This transition feels like "jumping off a bridge" for many mothers who've built their identities around active parenting.
Most powerfully, Pam encourages mothers to take responsibility without shame: "When you own the problems, you have the power to do something about them." Her advice to ask better questions like "what else could be true?" offers a path away from defensiveness toward genuine connection.
Whether you're navigating a challenging relationship with your adult daughter or working to improve communication as an adult daughter yourself, this episode provides compassionate guidance for the journey. Subscribe and share your experiences with us – when was the last time you had to bite your tongue?
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send all ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com. Remeber to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Support US! Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select SUPPORT US. You can buy a "virtual" cup of coffee.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
anxiety and the worry and and I've gone through it I
just took a massive deep diveinto worry and I think one of
the things that even I gotclarity on as I was writing was
that a lot of our worry isconnected to control.
We, as moms, were expected tobe in control right, that was a
(00:22):
part of our job description andwe had to build a control we
need.
We were supposed to be incontrol right, that was a part
of our job description and wehad to be able to control.
We were supposed to be able tocurate.
We were supposed to be able toorchestrate, know what to do,
control the environment as muchas we could.
Of course, I think of lettingout the rope through the years
where they got to have more andmore autonomy, but there's still
(00:43):
a little voice in all of ourheads as moms, I think, that
says, oh, you could be doingsomething about that.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hey everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue, the
podcast.
Join me, your host, deniseGorin, as we explore the ins and
outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together, we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
(01:19):
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when to
bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of Bite your
Tongue the podcast.
The time is now.
Drum roll, please.
I'm going to introduce my newco-host, but before I do, I want
to thank so many of you who'vereached out with interest in
(01:42):
joining our team.
We actually have a few peoplewho are behind the scenes and
have volunteered to help.
It's so wonderful.
Thank you, liz.
Thank you Terry, erica and Jen.
Jen is actually a young adultwho follows us on Instagram and
finds the podcast very helpfulfrom the young adult angle.
I can't thank each of themenough.
(02:03):
From the young adult angle, Ican't thank each of them enough
and even though I have apermanent co-host who knows, one
of them may pop in from time totime.
Okay, so who's the new co-host?
Welcome, kirsten Heckendorf.
I've known Kirsten for a longtime as she lives in Denver.
We knew of each other but ourpaths really didn't cross.
Coincidentally, she startedworking for a music website,
(02:26):
val's List, out of Chicago.
Val, the founder of Val's List,happens to be a dear childhood
friend of mine from Youngstown,ohio.
Val actually co-hosted anepisode with me, with Susan
Engle, season two, episode 22.
So I got to know Kirsten a bitbetter through Val and she
reached out and you know Ithought it would be great to
(02:49):
have someone local.
She's the parent of three adultchildren.
She has a great perspective onparenting and is willing to work
hard with me and for all of you.
So welcome, kirsten, to Biteyour Tongue.
We're so happy you're takingthis journey with us.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Thank you, Denise.
I am so excited and honored tobe here.
I had so much fun co-hostingwith you on the Joshua Coleman
episode, I thought why not givethis a go permanently?
So I'm ready to get to work andI may as well start by letting
listeners know about ourexciting guest.
Today.
We're welcoming Pam Tronson, acertified life coach with a
specialty in mother-daughterrelationships.
(03:29):
She actually trained with oneof your earlier guests, Roshka
Hasseldine, so you can listen tothat episode with Roshka on our
website or on any podcastplatform, from Apple to Spotify
or anything in between.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I love that episode with Roshka, and I have a
daughter who just turned 35.
So I love that episode and Iknow this one's going to be
great too.
It's a topic everyone seems towant to talk about.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
I think it's really important.
Not only are we mothers ofdaughters, but we're also
daughters of our own mothers.
So I found that kind of aninteresting little twist I was
thinking about the other day.
But I'm fortunate, I have agood relationship with my
daughter.
But that hasn't happened,naturally, without some struggle
from both of us from time totime and, I'm sure, at the right
times teenage years and allthat.
But what strikes me about thestruggles, not just with mothers
(04:18):
and daughters, but families ingeneral, is that we're living in
a time when people are cravingconnections and yet at the same
time it's so difficult, and Idon't know why it has to be so
difficult.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
No, you're absolutely right.
I was talking to someone thismorning and I think we all have
much closer relationships withour kids than probably previous
generations.
But I want to say two things towhat you just said.
One, you're lucky to have yourmother, and that makes sense
that you're going to see thisfrom both angles.
I've lost my mother, but Istill, when I listen to these
things, I think, oh, I couldhave been a better adult
(04:52):
daughter.
The other thing I want to sayis you mentioned the teenage
years and such.
For me, the teenage years werenothing.
It's been the young adult yearsthat's been much harder.
So I think for everyone, yeah,it's just a different ball game.
So on to Pam.
Now, before I do the formalintroduction, I want to tell you
every Monday she sends out amessage and you can sign up for
(05:17):
a message through her website,which is PamTronsonCoachingcom,
and I'll put a link to that inour episode notes.
But every week I find somethingI love, and I said to Pam when
she was joining us today I justread your things and I, like you
, there's just something abouther.
But this week she talked aboutconflict and she asked readers
to examine how they handleconflict and if it doesn't work,
(05:37):
how they can reframe.
It really hit home for me,because hard for me to admit,
but I am the person that argues.
So when conflict hits me, Imany times want to prove I'm the
right one.
And you know what?
I do this with my adultdaughter sometimes and I
realized how much I have to stopbecause there's no right or
(05:58):
wrong in this.
So it made me really kind ofrethink anything.
But anyway, I just wanted toshare that Before I get in again
.
She is going to tell us aboutherself and how she got into
this, but I want her to readsomething that I think I read on
her website.
So I wonder, pam, would youread that piece of copy that I
sent to you earlier?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Absolutely.
There are words on my website.
There are also words on myheart, I think I love and adore
both of my daughters, yet I wasfrustrated and confused by the
relationship that was unfoldingwith each of them.
It looked nothing like what Ihad imagined it would be, and it
often consumed me.
How could there be such angstbetween me and these beautiful
(06:42):
souls?
I believe I had given my all to, and when I looked around, all
I could see were the moms whoseemed to be able to
successfully work through thatwhich I could not.
What had I done wrong?
What had I missed?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I just get chills.
I don't know why, but I thinkthere are so many parents, and
moms in particular, that feelthat way.
When you have a young adult andKirsten and I were talking
about this a little bit earlierwe all try our very best,
absolutely, and when things goawry it's hard.
But anyway, welcome Pam, we'rehappy to have you.
Please share with our listenersa little bit more about you,
(07:20):
your story, because I'd likethat to come from you rather
than from us Sure.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Well, first and foremost, can I just say, denise
, how thrilled I was when youreached out to me.
I literally did the happy dance, thinking that there was
someone out there who wasbringing the spotlight to the
relationship us moms have withour kids.
Because there's a generalassumption, I think, in the
(07:44):
world that, oh yeah, once you'rean empty nester, everything is
lovely, the kids leave, and thentheir lives are great and our
lives are great and nobody talksabout it.
And it's challenging I meanespecially now all the different
things that are going on in ourworld and for our kids' world
things that are going on in ourworld and for our kids' world
and the fact that you're doingthis.
(08:06):
I'm so happy that you've takenthe time and made the effort.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
And I'm honored to be here today to be able to chat
with you.
Well, we're happy to have you,and this is Kirsten's first
episode as my new co-host, soshe is putting her mark on this
too, and we both know that thisis all we talk about with our
friends, so why not make apublic forum for it?
Anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Well for me, I decided back in the 80s that I
wanted to be a life coach whichsounds kind of odd because I
don't know that there was such athing back then but I had
worked with Tony Robbins, bothas as a participant and then I
had worked as a volunteer.
It was when he was stillgetting started and he didn't
have the big staff that he had,and I just decided I'd watched
(08:53):
so many people have these epictransformations in their lives.
I was maybe one of them and Iknew that's what I wanted to do,
and clearly it took me a littlewhile to get here.
But in 2018, I had my secondcertification in life coaching
and it was when I started totake it on as my full-time
(09:15):
occupation.
And it was funny becauseeverybody talks about niching
down, like what are you going tospecialize in?
For a lot of people, it's thething that they've had the most
challenges with, and for me, Iwas like, well, I didn't know
what I'm going to do because mylife's been really great and,
yes, I'm on my second marriage.
You know I always say you onlyget married twice, but I was
(09:40):
like my life seemed to be goingpretty well.
It wasn't like I thought I wassuffering in any way and I think
the universe heard me and wentoh, let's give her something to
suffer about.
And that was when thingsstarted to kind of get a little
rocky.
I have two adult daughters.
They're both in their 20s andthings got really challenging
(10:01):
and it was really hard and itwas like okay, so here's what
I'm going to apply all of mylife coaching to.
And I worked through so muchand I was making so much
progress and at the time I waskind of a general life coach for
women in their forties, fifties, sixties kind of thing.
I was off on a retail therapyafternoon and walked into the
(10:22):
store and saw this coaster thatsaid you are the mom everyone
wishes they had.
And I flat out lost it rightthere in the store and it was
just like dagger in my heart.
But I'd been doing so much work.
I was like, damn it, I ambuying this thing for myself in
honor to the work that I've beendoing.
And I left and I was sitting inmy driveway with the mascara
(10:45):
stains on the front of beendoing.
And I left and I was sitting inmy driveway with the mascara
stains on the front of my faceand it was like I got this
sensor.
I heard this voice, or whateverit was, that said you're not
done yet, and I was.
When you talk about conflictstyles, I was one of those
people who would go, oh, Ireally messed that up.
Okay, I'm going to pretend thatnever happened.
I'm going to go over here.
(11:05):
I wasn't good at addressingthings and it was like my rally
cry that no, I still had yearsto become the mom that I'd
always wished I would be or Ialways hoped to be, and I was in
the habit of making a videoevery week and I made a video
(11:27):
about my experience.
I don't really know what havinga video go viral means, but it
was on Instagram and, before Iknew it, I had a following and
what was funny well, maybe notfunny, no-transcript to see that
(12:12):
the shame is what drags us intoa corner and makes us
incompetent and makes us thething that gets in the way of
the repair that's needed.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I just want to say something as you say this and I
apologize because I should neverinterrupt a guest, but I didn't
want to forget what you saidabout you still had time to make
a change, and what I'mrealizing as a parent of adult
children is and I've said thison a couple other episodes this
is actually the longestrelationship we'll ever have
(12:43):
with them.
All that we did being roomparents or running them to
soccer, or making sure they werein the right school did their
homework I mean it mattered, butnot like this second stage does
now, because we have a chancefor a real relationship.
We were a parent back then.
Now, as they say, we're almostlike a consultant and we have to
(13:07):
be there, but not over.
Be there, does that?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
make sense and it's a huge learning curve.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Did you feel that way , Kirsten?
It's a learning curve.
They don't listen to everythingyou say anymore.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
They don't listen to most of what you say initially
and then almost guaranteed theycome back later and they say I
know you told me this, but andyou were right, and yes, if I
had really just learned thelesson to have listened to you
from the beginning, anyway, witheverything, I'd be good.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Sometimes, Anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Pam, yeah Well.
And then I give the advice andI'm like, who was that?
Am I doing that?
Like, oh, that's interestingahead.
Pam, yeah Well.
And then I give the advice andI'm like, who was that?
Am I doing that?
Like, oh, that's interestingperspective, pam, how about you
apply that to your life?
But yes, no, completely, I knowwhat you're saying, but yeah,
so that's how I got to be whereI'm at.
And I have to say it's funny.
I had a couple of peopledifferent coaches that I work
(14:01):
with, where I said I'm thinkingof niching down and I want to
work.
I just want to work with momswho have challenging
relationships with their adultdaughters, and the response I
got a number of times was like,well, you know, I don't really
know if there's a market forthat, and I was thinking one of
them was a man.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
So you know thank you ?
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, thank you.
I was going to say that.
Yeah, that's what I was goingto say.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Wait a minute, we've got male listeners.
Kirsten Stop, they know a lot.
Anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
No, we're not busting on anyone.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I'm teasing.
I'm teasing and I know you'reteasing.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
It's something that we, I don't know.
Like I say, we just all dialed.
And then in the intro that youasked me to read, that's one of
our biggest curses is, we lookat all of the other people who
(14:54):
think they've got it dialed.
We think that they somehow aredoing something right and we're
somehow doing something wrong,and it's just another aspect of
it that inevitably will sink theboat.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Do you think social media plays into that?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
We're seeing everyone else's play out in front of us.
Oh yeah, I mean absolutely.
But when we can recognize howthat's affecting us and our
lives.
Think of the impact it's havingon our kids.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
I mean, I'm kind of happy to be in my 60s.
I wouldn't want to be goingthrough that right now in my
life.
I just think that social mediais awesome, the internet is
awesome, and it's also justanother one of those things that
you just got to learn how toget it on a short leash.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
All right, so let's get on to some of this.
What are some of the mostcommon challenges or conflicts
that you think arise betweenmothers and daughters?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head, denise.
There is an aspect I mean, likeour generation, we have been so
involved in our kids' lives.
I was raised in a family whereyou had to come home for dinner
when the streetlights came onand my parents had no idea where
I was half the time Schools,grades they knew nothing of that
(16:10):
.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And not that I had neglectful no no, no, all of us
grew up that way.
All of us grew up that way.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, amazing parents , but they weren't involved in
our lives.
But I think there's agenerational turnover.
I feel sorry for my mom.
I was a wild child.
I was everybody's nightmare, Ibet.
But I experienced that and cameout of it with the idea of, oh,
it's going to be different whenI'm a mom.
(16:36):
I'm not going to, that's goingto be.
Those things will change whenI'm a mom and that's been
happening for generation aftergeneration after generation
after generation.
We as a whole parent in responseto the way we were parented and
you see the ebbs and flows ofthe different kinds of attitudes
towards it.
But that's one of the thingslike it's just, it's just
(16:58):
different.
We're so much more involved andthen all of a sudden we get to
this part where we're supposedto like go sit in the stands.
It can feel like a jumping offthe bridge moment, because
there's a moment when we're theycall us all the time in college
, or we're so involved in theirlife and they're, you know,
their boy.
They get told about theirboyfriends and their what are we
(17:20):
thinking about for career andall this kind of stuff.
And I always use the analogy.
We've been the coach on thefield with them year after year
after year after year, and thenall of a sudden, the next season
starts and you're asked to go,sit in the stands and watch and
applaud when things go well andgo, oh, when they drop a pass.
(17:43):
But no one's asking you like.
It's not your job to be thecoach anymore.
And crossing that bridge is isvery challenging, and a lot of
women get so wrapped up in theidentity of, of, of being that
amazing mom, that it's hard toput the fork down and step away
from the table.
But it's necessary for theevolution of this beautiful
(18:08):
being that you gave birth to.
They now need to go on andcreate their own life and create
their own people and find theirpeople.
It's how it's supposed tohappen.
But we're like the little puppy.
No, no, no, no.
See me, feel me, touch me, petme.
It's like no, no, no, no, no,see me, feel me, touch me, pet
me.
It's like no, no, no, no, no.
(18:31):
You can't do this without me,can you?
And again, forgive me, I alwaysmake the analogy.
I always knew I was going tohave daughters and I was like
when I have daughters, they aregoing to be strong, confident,
independent, scrappy, capablewomen that can speak up for
themselves and do all thosethings.
And then it happened.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I was like I just that that took me a minute.
That took me a minute.
So what you're saying, yeah,then they became capable and
everything, and you were furtherback in the stands.
Oh, yeah, then I becameobsolete.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I kept thinking if I would have just put some fine
print into the contract thatsaid and be you always.
Be really nice to your mom.
I know that they're not nice,but it's exactly what we wanted.
And then it's happening andwe're like you know.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Well, the other thing I think that's funny too, and I
know you will both relate tothis is when they call us and
they go on and on and on becausethey want to share something,
and it may be they got into afight with a girlfriend or
whatever.
They get it all out, they leavethe room or they drop the phone
and you are still thinkingabout this and then a week goes
(19:36):
by, you haven't heard from yourkid, and the next time you talk
to them you're kind of like,okay, so what happened?
What are you talking about?
Or, oh, and that was nothing.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
No, that's absolutely true.
We keep it and keep it and keepit.
But so what are the strategies?
So a parent and a mother comesto you, or a mother, maybe
sometimes the adult child yousaid also will come to you, or
do they sometimes come together?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, I've had a lot of times people will come
together.
I have always.
I'm going to say, most of myclients are the moms and I love
it that way, to be honest,because I am a firm believer.
It only takes one person.
It's physics right.
If one person can change, itwill dramatically improve the
(20:19):
dynamics of the relationship.
And I figure I've been on thisplanet for 35 years, 38 years
longer than they have.
Why not?
Why shouldn't it be me?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Let's get to your office, okay, and what are the
kinds of strategies?
I think everything you said isexactly right.
We all were very over-involvedand, as you said that you say
you work with the moms I fullybelieve we have a lot of work to
do because we were used tobeing on the field coaching.
I always use the analogy of thetheater you were on the stage,
(20:50):
then you were in the orchestra,then you were in the mezzanine.
All of a sudden, you're out inthe lobby, so you don't even
know what's going on, which isexactly like you said, what it's
supposed to be, and I canintellectually talk about that a
hundred times and say that'swhere I'm supposed to be, blah,
blah, blah.
But when you don't get thatcall, or no one's going to be
home for Christmas or all ofthat, which is okay, it has to
(21:14):
be okay, they have their liveshow do you counsel us?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Of course it's different depending on the
person sitting in front of me,one of the things that I think I
start with every singlesessions, of all the sessions
that I do in order to have and Iknow I'm not going to be the
first person on your show that'sever said this, but in order to
have a better relationship withanything in your life, you have
to have a better relationshipwith your own self, and we often
(21:40):
start there.
I get a lot of moms that come tome that either feel just
beleaguered and beaten down.
Either they're there or they'rejust so damn angry.
It starts with being able to beable to find your center, get
back to your center, confidencebuilding, and I think one of the
(22:02):
greatest things to build ourconfidence is to be able to
understand how our mind'sworking and how we're processing
what's happening to us.
So we spent a lot of time in thebeginning working on having a
better understanding of what itis that we're putting out there
and how it could potentially beperceived, and part of it or
(22:24):
maybe the next step is to beable to walk a mile in their
shoes, gain some compassion andinsight into what your kids are
going through, to createperspective.
As to, one of my favoritequestions is what else could be
true, just to be able tounderstand what it is that
they're dealing with, whatthey're going through, and not
(22:46):
making it just about us.
And a third component isunderstanding what it would look
like like what we want to seehappen.
What's the change?
It is that we're most afterwhat would have the most impact,
and then you start making stepstowards how we get to achieve
that, and then you start makingsteps towards how we get to
achieve that.
If there are any particularpatterns or dynamics that you
(23:08):
see frequently in your practicethat are more common than others
, Parents want to beover-involved and feel as though
(23:29):
and I'm going to throw thisword right back out from where
it came feel as though they'reentitled to be that person in
their kids' lives, and so it'sjust helping them to redefine
and reshape their attitudetowards the relationship.
I see a lot of people that areso wrapped up in worry.
We've come to accept worry inour lives as something that's
normal.
Well, of course we're going toworry.
Of course it's an accepted partof motherhood and I don't think
it should be.
(23:50):
There's a lot of moms where wespend some time breaking that
whole concept down andcommunication.
One of the primary things islearning how to not take
everything personally, becausewe get wrapped up into our own
world and our own story that wekeep telling ourselves, the
story that we, you know, we tellall our friends about this
(24:10):
thing that's going on, and wejust tell the same story over
and over and over again, and allof our friends, of course, are
going oh you poor thing, youdon't deserve that.
You will get the support andthe comfort that we need from
them, but that's not my job asyour coach.
My job is to yank the rug outfrom underneath you a little bit
(24:31):
and let's see it for what it is.
Let's get clear about whatwe're working with.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Okay, I want to go back to worry, but I want to
talk about that big E word.
You used entitlement.
Okay, it's very interestingbecause we just interviewed
someone recently who said hefeels that this generation is
the most caring, the mostsocially responsible, but also
(24:58):
the most entitled.
And I just dawned on me.
You have two entitled people,so you have the entitled
daughter that expects this fromthe mother and the entitled
mother that expects this fromthe daughter.
And that's a scene.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, oh, it is, and I see that over and over again.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
What do you say to someone who?
How do you work with them toget this entitlement from them?
Parred?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
down.
Well, again, it's discovery,it's curiosity why does it live
there, why is it a part of therelationship?
And, digging a little bitunderneath, there's so much
historical stuff going on thatwe're sometimes not completely
aware of.
We live in a very patriarchalsociety where and I say that I'm
(25:51):
not a, I don't hate men, I'mnot a, I'm not someone that's
going to be out there, I'm not abra burning feminist.
But we've got to be aware ofthat influence on our
relationships and how that'splaying out.
But I think, even just in theawareness of it, denise is so
(26:11):
huge.
I think I have a lot of peoplethat feel as though they're
entitled to have thatrelationship with their daughter
or entitled to have thatrelationship with their
grandchildren.
I know we're not going to gointo that, but it's an
interesting bit of quicksand tostep into and I think, before
you can start throwing thatentitled, it can mean honestly.
(26:34):
It means a lot of people cometo me and say, oh yeah, I think
my kids are entitled and wethink they're entitled because
they were sent to a good school.
We helped them choose a schoolthat we thought was most
appropriate for them and thenthey've gone to a college.
There was a time in our worldwhere college wasn't necessarily
a given, it was an option, andnot everybody went to college.
(26:57):
I mean, I did college until Iwas 29.
But it's like it's thisentitled.
You know, we look at it interms of that it's just
something we're going to give tothem.
We look at it in terms of thatit's just something we're going
to give to them.
Well, at the end of the day,we're just trying to help them
to have everything we think theyneed in order to have the best
lives they can.
What's funny too, I have a lotof people that will come to me
(27:17):
and they'll say if I ever saidsomething like that to my mom?
In that vein and it goes handin hand with the idea of when we
try to kind of curate theirlives so they don't have to deal
with the hardships that we hadI think we sometimes have this
expectation that they can beable to teletransport themselves
(27:38):
into our childhood and ourlives and go oh yeah, mom sure
had it different than I do.
Like, isn't mom amazing becauseI don't have to deal with these
things that she dealt with?
Except that they don't havethat power.
What they have, it's relative.
They're normal.
Normal is a very relative thing, so of course I'm going to go
(28:01):
to college, of course I'm goingto do all those things.
That's what everybody does, andwe're happy to help them
because we can, you're exactlyright.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I want to ask another question Do you see a
difference in families with twogirls or three girls and a boy
and a girl?
What's the dynamic there interms of the son versus the
daughter and that sort of thing?
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Well, again, depends on the family.
I think it's interesting.
I've looked for research on it.
There is no research on itbecause most research is done by
men and the fathers ofpsychology are never going to
dive into this one.
But there is a very unique bondbetween mother and daughter and
it's historical.
We can look at it from anevolutionary standpoint, but
(28:49):
it's there, it exists, and it'sa different kind of bond.
Information is transmittedthrough a glance, as opposed to
any other kind of demonstrativeway.
It's different, and I don'thave voice, so I don't have a
literal experience of that, butI do think it's incredibly.
(29:11):
It's a different relationshipwith the boys and let's face it.
Okay, so go back to thepatriarchal society.
Go back, however manygenerations I mean.
Our world was created where theman sits at the top of the
pyramid as the person of wisdomwho provides for the family and
who doesn't really have anyresponsibilities to the family
(29:34):
per se other than to provide forthem, and then the woman is
underneath, the wife'sunderneath, doing everything for
everyone all the time, runningherself crazy, and she in some
ways has authority, of courseuntil dad comes home or until
that son rises up beside her.
It's a different way that theand again I'm talking five or
(29:56):
six generations ago thedifferent way that son is looked
at.
He's going to be the one thattakes over the family business
or he's going to be whateverthat is.
He has a different role andthey're treated differently.
I have a lot of clients who haveone of each and they're like oh
no, my son adores me, he's apiece of cake, he's whatever.
It's a different relationshipand, like I say, I have no
(30:17):
literal experience of it, but Ihave witnessed it and the
dynamics of people come to me.
I have one client who has fivedaughters and she told me that
in the first place and I waslike I'd rather drive a red hot
poker in my eye.
I can't imagine what that wouldbe like and she's kick-ass,
(30:38):
she's an amazing woman.
But I can't imagine what itwould be like to have five
daughters, six women, in thesame household, unless, of
course, you had six guest housesor something.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
One of the things that I have found the most
difficult is of my three kids.
I have two boys and a girl.
My daughter is always the oneto point out whatever it is
about me, about my character, asshe sees it about.
It doesn't matter what it is,and I guess that I've always
(31:12):
looked at it as her figuring outwho she is.
And in order to figure out whoshe is, she's needed to do a
kind of this push pull thing,because she'll do it and she'll
be pretty tough on me, and thenfive minutes later she needs a
hug.
And so is that a common theme?
(31:33):
Is it something that they needto do in their own development?
That's how I viewed it.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Well, I think it's a really healthy thing for them to
do, because the other option isto not have any interaction
with you, growing up in thiskind of banter back and forth,
and then they're the ones thatjust can't wait to get out of
the house and you never hearfrom them again.
And I think, like, in asituation like that, I think
what's really helpful and what Itry to do with a lot of my with
(32:01):
my clients, is reframe the ideaof blame when they start
pointing out all those thingsthat they think are wrong with
you, to be able to reframe thatin a way where I like to see it
as data, because they are again,I think you're dead on.
They are testing out theories,the radar's up and they're
(32:22):
trying to figure out themselves,often through you, because
there's so many of our ownqualities that, sadly, we see
reflected in our kids.
Can they just get the goodparts, please?
But so it is a discovery andyou're safe, right?
Remember when our kids weretoddlers and they're like oh
yeah, they save all their worstbehavior for you because they
(32:46):
can't.
Well, guess what?
That doesn't necessarily goaway.
It's just more personal whenyou're talking to a 17-year-old
or a 15-year-old, a 30-year-old,let's forget those teen years.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, it really develops a lot more.
When you're 17, you can stillsay, well, they're a teenager.
But when they're 27, 28, 29, 30, you sort of expect this
respect.
And, like Lawrence Steinbergsaid, he's the one who wrote
this recent big book on youradult children.
Gone are the days of honor thyfather and mother.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, Well, honestly, we can see all the statistics
about how we're generally movingaway from organized religion
again, for better, for worse,but that's a tenet that comes to
us so clearly from that and thefamily and all that kind of
stuff.
Yeah, we're moving into a worldwhere we do think more about
the individual than we do as agroup.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
What do you tell a client?
I want to go back to what yousaid about worry number one as a
group.
What do you tell a client?
I want to go back to what yousaid about worry number one and
also what Kirsten said about.
But you have to have a lot ofself-esteem to listen and not
react, okay.
So I want to know about that.
And I want to also know whatyou tell a parent who does worry
all the time the kid.
(34:02):
They may have the distance, thekid's doing great, they're on
their own, but they worry theycould get fired from this job.
Are they working hard enough?
Should they really be datingthis person?
I don't like the neighborhoodthey're living in you could
think of all the differentthings you worry about.
Did they send in a thank younote to Aunt Sally when she sent
them that money?
How does a parent deal with allthat anxiety and worry?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Well, the anxiety and the worry and I actually have
to say I just finished creatingthis little 50-page mini book
that I'm going to be I'm notsure when the podcast will air,
but that'll be available andI've gone through it.
I just took a massive, deepdive into worry and I think one
of the things that even I gotclarity on as I was writing was
(34:46):
that a lot of our worry isconnected to control.
We, as moms, were expected tobe in control, right.
That was a part of our jobdescription and we had to be
able to control.
We were supposed to be able tocurate, we were supposed to be
able to orchestrate, know whatto do, control the environment
(35:08):
as much as we could, and, ofcourse, I think of letting out
the rope through the years wherethey got to have more and more
autonomy.
But there's still a little voicein all of our heads as moms, I
think, that says, oh, you couldbe doing something about that.
Maybe you should try to fix that, or we want to still stay so on
(35:29):
their everything and the thingwith control.
It's like we don't have control,we cannot control the other
humans, and for some of myclients I always say put it on a
sticky note and put it on yourfridge, put it on your mirror,
put it everywhere, tattoo itacross your forehead, get it on
the inside of your arm.
(35:49):
We cannot control the otherhumans.
We can't.
We have no control over them.
We have no control over whathappens to them.
But our brains go down therabbit hole because and this is
where worry comes in we wouldrather be able to hold on to the
idea that they're going to behomeless, living under a bridge,
(36:10):
like if that's our worst fear.
We would rather go there andknow the outcome as opposed to
just going well, I don't reallyhave any control, I don't really
know what's going to go on.
Your brain does not like that.
Your brain wants something thatit can hold onto, and releasing
control means releasing control, being at peace with the next
(36:35):
thing that comes.
Boy I really believe that, andworry is that thing.
We want to know what's going tohappen, even if it's horrible,
which is a crazy thing that ourbrain does.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
But if we can't control them, we can control our
worry, meaning I'm going tohang on to this worry because I
can't change the situation.
And I also just wonder I'venever thought about this.
The stronger you are, the moresuccessful you are as a woman.
You've been in control of abusiness.
You've been in control.
You're not used to not being incontrol.
I have a personal experience.
My daughter was 35.
(37:08):
She was getting married.
She really wanted to do it alland I've done events my whole
life, always in control of thewhole thing.
It was the hardest thing I everdid was to sit back and bite my
tongue and watch it all happen.
And I would say to my husbandI'm making all these lists.
And he said, well, she's doingit, why are you doing it?
Well, I'm making all theselists.
And he said, well, she's doingit, why are you doing it?
(37:28):
Well, I'm not sharing them withher, but I got to go through in
order for me to be quiet.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Well, and I have to say, denise, the fact that you
did that, it's something that Irecommend to clients all the
time.
We've got to get in the habitof writing it down, whether it
be a list, or I encourage thisthing called thought downloads,
just to literally get the stuffthat's swirling in our brains
out of our brains and onto apiece of paper.
Horrible, crappy thoughts can'thide if they're on a piece of
(37:58):
paper.
They can hide in the backs ofour brains.
But if you write down, if youthink about all the things
you're worried about and youwrite them down and you look at,
if you're honest in what it isyou're writing, and then you
look at the words, you're like,well, that's stupid.
Why would I think that?
No, that's not going to happen,I don't need to worry about it.
Like I say, bad thoughts can'thide when you've got them down
(38:21):
on paper.
So it is.
I'm glad that you went andwrote down lists, major lists of
all the things that you wantedto focus on.
It's healthy.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
I did tell her I worried, and worried and worried
.
This was the most perfectwedding ever.
You knew exactly what you weredoing, exactly what to do, and
I'm glad I bit my tongue.
It's hard for me to stand back.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Oh yeah, I must say, like in that moment when you did
it and it hardest thing you'veever done, that's the other
thing we don't do really areally good job as moms,
especially as being able tocelebrate it.
I, this is what I wanted to do,this was what I chose to do,
and then give yourself a goldstar, a little bit of the happy
dance.
It's like, oh yeah, I got this,I did it Like we have to be
(39:05):
able to celebrate the wins.
Our brains are wired.
We are innately driven to findeverything that's gone wrong, so
we have to counterbalance it byactively finding the things
that go right and hang on tothem.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Well, that brings my next point up, which is to go
back to something you saidearlier about self-care and how,
the importance of that.
What self-care practices andstrategies do you recommend to
your clients?
Speaker 1 (39:35):
One of my most favorite ones.
It's called boundaries, because, okay, I'm going to just weave
a couple of things in here.
If I want to get my listeners,my followers, riled up, I just
drop in a post about respect andthere'll be like 200 responses.
Everybody's got an opinionabout respect and these kids
(39:58):
don't have respect anymore, andyadda, yadda, yadda, yadda,
yadda.
Well, it's a hot button for somany people and there's so many
things like that, like respect.
We have to be able to have itfor ourself first, and that's
how I think we encourage respectinto our lives.
We have to learn how to loveourselves first before we can
(40:20):
expect another human to love usfully, deeply.
And self-respect and boundaries.
I think that's why you haveboundaries.
Boundaries for me, that's whywe created boundaries, so it's a
form of self-respect.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Give me an example of a boundary you might have with
your daughter.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
I'm just thinking of some of the clients that I've
worked with, daughters who tendto get really overly emotional
on a telephone conversationwhere you can say, and again,
boundaries are not what you needthem to do.
Boundaries are not a way tocontrol the other humans.
Boundaries are a way you set aboundary.
(41:00):
If you do this, then I'm goingto do this, but it's not like
I'm going to scream.
It's like if we get on a phonecall and it gets too heated, I'm
going to just set this outahead of time.
I reserve the right to raise myhand and we can end the
conversation.
I'm going to take care ofmyself.
This is nonproductive.
(41:21):
So in conversation, if thingsget too heated, I'm reserving
the right.
I will step away from theconversation.
I will hang up, I will go for awalk.
I will do that to take care ofmyself.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
And then will you connect later.
How do you reconnect after that?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
No, there's always yeah, you always want to be able
to set it up where a chance.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
You just need a breather.
You just needed a breather.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Well, it's need a breather, but it's also it's a
message like no, you don't getto talk to me like that.
I want to talk about this, Iwant to get deep, it can get
ugly, but you don't get to curseat me, you don't get to call me
names, you don't get to be youknow.
And the thing is like even just, I'm just thinking of one
client in particular, like sheis aware, or she's become aware,
that her daughter goes to thatspot when she feels out of
(42:10):
control, when she feels thingsspiraling.
So, again, we're not going totake that personally.
That's about my daughter,that's not about me, that's
about my daughter.
But, fyi, when the switch getsflipped and you go to that space
, when the switch gets flippedand you go to that space, we're
going to take a pause.
We want to have productive,strong, meaningful, deep
(42:30):
conversations.
That doesn't.
That's never going to be a partof it.
And the other thing my coach, Ilove her so deeply, but her
favorite words are I love youand no.
So when you have a situationwhere your daughter just expects
you to be available, orwhatever that is, I have a
(42:53):
couple of clients whose daughterthey are the second nanny and
they just don't feel as thoughthey'll be out doing something
nice for themselves and daughterwill call up and say are you
close by?
Can you just come by and do youknow?
And in some ways it's likethere's part.
There's days where you're like,woo, yeah, I'll be there in two
(43:14):
minutes, but you're alsoallowed on the days where, no,
you have plans.
You don't have to change yourday and cancel all your plans
just so you can go be with them.
It's for fear that if you don't, you might get not asked back
again.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Why do parents feel that way so much nowadays?
I think what you just said iscritical.
It's like, yes, I'll be there.
You want me to send you that,I'll send it right away.
It's.
It's almost like it's weflipped roles.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Yeah, yeah, we do.
And again, I made the joke ofbeing the puppy.
We just you puppy.
Whatever attention you can giveme is I'll take it.
I'll take it, but that's.
I always have the expressionyou got to lay down to be a
doormat.
If you're in a place whereresentment is building, where
(44:04):
you feel that, to me that's thetelltale sign.
You need to set a boundary iswhen resentment is storming into
your life.
That's the time where you'vegot to go.
I got to stand up for me andit's courage and it's bravery,
because you know what, as women,what do you mean?
I mean you've got your own needs.
What do you mean?
You have your own plans.
It's like, come on, you'resupposed to be the mom,
(44:25):
everything for everybody, allthe time.
You're supposed to be selfless.
For generations we've beenpraised as being those selfless
mothers that put everyone else'sneeds above their own.
I remember being with myhusband and his mom, who is one
of the most amazing women on theplanet.
God bless St Janie.
(44:46):
She had six children, five boys, one girl.
It's 96 years old, so amazing.
But we were talking one timeand there was her son saying
just this my mom, she is justthe most selfless individual.
She's never put.
She's always puts everybody'sneeds first and going on on
(45:07):
idolizing this version that Ithink in his brain he believes
that that's what we are allaspiring to.
And she was so cute.
She kind of looked at me andraised one eyebrow and gave me a
little wink and I was like oh,you got this mom Cause.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
She was like Well, you know, and people don't think
of that because really that issuch a compliment, she's so
selfish.
So we talked about this withRoshka a little bit, and I know
you know, and we thought weactually yeah, we titled the
episode the burnt hamburgerbecause you're at the barbecue
(45:42):
the hamburgers, there's onethat's burnt.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Who takes it?
Yeah, yeah, why?
I mean, look at the herd oflions.
The female lions all go out andthey bring back food for the
pack and then they retreat backand they sit back until
everybody else has eaten.
And then it's their turn.
I mean it's just somehow.
(46:04):
I mean it is the way.
It's that generational thingthat we've been raised.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Well, and also they came from us.
Yeah, many breastfed them.
You know it's very nurturing,so it's a real hard balance.
One of your newsletters youtalked about adult daughters not
really needing us, or wantingus.
In fact, you said they mightnot like us, so that hurts.
How do parents deal with that,with their daughter and with
(46:30):
themselves?
Speaker 1 (46:31):
Well, I think that the whole idea of I mean, you
got to look at the idea of beingneeded, right, our job we call
it raising kids we think of thispart of our life is that where
we're raising kids, we're notraising kids or raising adults.
The goal was to create and beable to launch these humans into
the world.
That didn't need us.
(46:52):
Like that's, that was a part,like that's a part of what we're
supposed to do.
We're supposed to be launchingadults that can be independent,
that can be all those things.
And it is hard, that'ssomething that we have to get
over.
No, they don't need us.
And instead of going over, no,they don't need us.
And instead of going, oh, theydon't need us to be able to go
(47:18):
whoo, and they don't need us.
Like it all depends on how yousay those words, you know like
that should be a big pat on theback.
They don't need us anymore.
Like it's awesome.
My husband's really good atthat.
I don't know I'm getting better, but he's very good at
applauding that part of theprocess and it's a great thing
and the whole love.
Or they don't like me anymore.
We all know relationships aremessy and believing that they're
(47:40):
not supposed to be messy is avery I do not recommend it.
We think we have this idea ishow it's supposed to turn out
and what it should look like itshould look like a Hallmark
movie, shouldn't it?
Oh yeah, the way it's beenfilmed and all that kind of
stuff.
And that's one of the things Ialways say is like be very
(48:00):
careful when the word shouldpops up into your thoughts,
because should is like couldcovered in shame, you know.
So we have Could is shouldcovered in shame, that's great.
We look at this life that we'vecreated.
It is supposed to be messy bydesign.
And how many times have youthought, oh my gosh, you know
(48:23):
what I love you but I don'treally like you right now.
It's okay to say that aboutyour kids.
Your kid's pretty good aboutsaying it about you.
Those are very easy words toroll off their mouth.
It's okay in the relationshipwhere there'll be times where
you're looking at your kid goingyou know what.
(48:44):
That's not my favorite versionof you, but but especially with
I know I said it before, butwith a mother and a daughter,
like there is a love part andwe'll we'll call it love, we'll
call it a bond.
I don't know if it's anumbilical cord or what it is.
We are corded to our moms.
(49:04):
There is a cord running betweenmother and daughter that I call
it love.
It's at the base and I thinkit's something that it never
goes away.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
It is interesting.
Why does love have to be thisvery singular idea?
Based on what you just said,love should encompass all of the
messy and and the reason why wewant to do what it is we're
doing.
So I think that the word lovejust needs to be redefined,
(49:37):
maybe.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I think that we can applyit in so many ways.
When you get that list fromyour kids of all the things that
you've done wrong and all thethings that they're holding you
accountable for, it's an act oflove Because in its essence
they're saying here's the thingsthat I'm very challenged by.
(50:02):
It's kind of a cry for help.
Can we fix this?
Speaker 2 (50:06):
It's also they care enough to bring it to you fix
this.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
It's also they care enough to bring it to you.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Yes, yes, they care enough to give you that list of
all the things that you'vemessed up on, or that they think
let's be clear here that theyperceive that you've messed up
on Yep, yep, absolutely, andthat's their belief, which means
you got to take it.
But yeah, because we've allmessed up, we've all messed up.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Of course, that was one of the things that I had to
do a lot of work on.
For me is I'm a perfectionist.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
And the idea of that I made mistakes, that I let me
say it, Let me try.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Failed, right, okay, wait.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
I said it.
Yeah, I mean like that was ahard thing for me to wrap my
arms around?
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Did you come to terms with you?
Don't fail if you keep trying.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
You know what?
I come from a school wherefailing is highly encouraged.
Oh, okay, Right, it was thequestion.
Well, how many times have youfailed today?
Well, I don't fail, it's notwhat I do, but it was like no,
we turned the language and theenergy around behind that word.
It's like how many times youfailed today?
Because failing is learning.
Speaker 3 (51:15):
So, pam, we're getting kind of the end of this
and really wanted to say thankyou for all of it.
It's so great to have you, andwe always ask our guests to
leave us with two or threetakeaways that you want our
listeners to remember.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Okay, takeaways that you want our listeners to
remember.
Okay, one of them.
My father always used to say tome you have a choice.
You get to be either part ofthe problem or part of the
solution, and I think, as moms,we often find ourselves in a
default position of being a partof the problem when it comes to
a challenging relationship withour kids.
(51:49):
And my thing is to be able toown that Instead of going go
problems.
Again, we were talking aboutfailure.
To be able to own the idea that, yeah, yeah, there's been some
things that haven't gone thatwell, there's been some things
I've done wrong.
And to own them, because whenyou own the air quote problems
(52:14):
like, you get to takeresponsibility for them, and
some people are are.
You know that feels like areally horrible thing to do, but
when you own a problem, thenyou have the power to do
something about it.
So it's that kind ofresponsibility, that taking a
responsibility that I think isincredibly empowering for us all
(52:38):
.
The other thing I would like toleave with is learn how to ask
better questions.
When we throw a question outinto the universe, our brain
will answer it.
So when we say why does thisalways happen to me your brain's
(53:01):
going to come back with becauseyou're dumb or because you're
worthless or because you're abad person.
Your brain is not the rightsource for answering questions
If you're asking bad questions.
So better questions to be ableto sit back and look at the
situation you're in and to hearthe thoughts, to hear the story
that's playing in your brain andto be able to take the pause
(53:23):
and go.
Is this serving me?
Does thinking this thought makeit better?
Another one of my favoritequestions I shared with you
already what else could be true?
What's the other aspect herethat I'm missing?
And then the other thing, too,that just implies the fact that
it is a choice.
It's like why am I choosing tothink this?
(53:44):
Why am I choosing this aspectof my story?
And I promise you there's abenefit there.
When we talk about falling intovictim mode, the one thing
that's really nice about victimmode you don't have to do
anything, you can just pointyour finger at other people.
I feel like this because mydaughter says these things, or
(54:06):
because she won't come to haveChristmas with us, or because
she, if you're in victim mode,you don't have to do anything.
You just can sit in that well,and point fingers at everybody
else.
So be curious, bring curiosityto the table and be curious
about the different things thatyou can do.
(54:27):
And the other thing I was goingto say and I think this I've
already touched on this a littlebit is that we often believe
that other people are doing it,but they're not.
Other moms that look likethey've got it all dialed,
they're not doing it right,they're doing it differently,
and we're all wildly differenthumans having our own experience
, or kids are wildly differenthumans having their own
(54:49):
experiences.
We have to be able to be fluidand to get off that whole
compare thing I don't rememberwho it was, but it always talks
about compare and despair, andthat could be more true than in
this particular situation.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
Those are so great.
Thank you so much and thanksfor joining us.
Those are so great.
Thank you so much and thanksfor joining us.
I'm so glad I reached out andwe'll be in touch.
This was terrific.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
We really appreciate you joining us well and I've
enjoyed it so much and, denise,I am eternally grateful for, for
the work you're doing and forallowing me to be a part of it.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
Thank you so that episode was a little long, but
she had so much to say and somany great things to say.
Thank you so much, Pam.
So much to think aboutListeners.
Please remember to check outPam's website,
PamTronsonCoachingcom that'sP-A-M-T-R-O-N-S-O-N-Coachingcom,
(55:47):
and make sure you sign up toget her.
I guess it's a document thathighlights the four pitfalls to
avoid with your adult daughter.
It's a really great piece ofwriting.
Speaker 3 (55:58):
Denise, thank you so much.
That was.
That was really great today.
She's obviously been doing thisfor a long time and has had
sort of a wealth of experiencepersonally, but also just with
her clients, and I just can'thelp but think not just for my
personally, but also just withour clients and I just can't
help but think, not just for mydaughter but also my
relationship with my mother thatthere's a lot of great pearls
of wisdom in all of this.
(56:19):
I'm excited to put some thingsin action.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
And I think there's a cross between your sons too.
All of this is about looking atourselves, and that's so
important.
Congratulations on your firstepisode, first real episode, and
welcome to Bite your Tongue.
So, anyway, and thanks so muchto Connie Warren Fisher, our
audio engineer.
Please remember to write to usat biteyourtonguepodcast at
gmailcom.
Let us know if you have anyquestions or ideas.
(56:44):
Remember to follow us onFacebook and Instagram and, once
again, any donation will keepus going.
Just go to our website atBiteYourTonguePodcastcom and
select support us.
You'll find lots of ways youcan help keep us going.
So, thanks so much.
Thanks for listening andremember, sometimes you say it,
(57:05):
kirsten, sometimes you just haveto bite your tongue.
Speaker 3 (57:09):
Thank, you.
anxiety and the worry and and I've gone through it I
just took a massive deep diveinto worry and I think one of
the things that even I gotclarity on as I was writing was
that a lot of our worry isconnected to control.
We, as moms, were expected tobe in control right, that was a
(00:22):
part of our job description andwe had to build a control we
need.
We were supposed to be incontrol right, that was a part
of our job description and wehad to be able to control.
We were supposed to be able tocurate.
We were supposed to be able toorchestrate, know what to do,
control the environment as muchas we could.
Of course, I think of lettingout the rope through the years
where they got to have more andmore autonomy, but there's still
(00:43):
a little voice in all of ourheads as moms, I think, that
says, oh, you could be doingsomething about that.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hey everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue, the
podcast.
Join me, your host, deniseGorin, as we explore the ins and
outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together, we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
(01:19):
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when to
bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of Bite your
Tongue the podcast.
The time is now.
Drum roll, please.
I'm going to introduce my newco-host, but before I do, I want
to thank so many of you who'vereached out with interest in
(01:42):
joining our team.
We actually have a few peoplewho are behind the scenes and
have volunteered to help.
It's so wonderful.
Thank you, liz.
Thank you Terry, erica and Jen.
Jen is actually a young adultwho follows us on Instagram and
finds the podcast very helpfulfrom the young adult angle.
I can't thank each of themenough.
(02:03):
From the young adult angle, Ican't thank each of them enough
and even though I have apermanent co-host who knows, one
of them may pop in from time totime.
Okay, so who's the new co-host?
Welcome, kirsten Heckendorf.
I've known Kirsten for a longtime as she lives in Denver.
We knew of each other but ourpaths really didn't cross.
Coincidentally, she startedworking for a music website,
(02:26):
val's List, out of Chicago.
Val, the founder of Val's List,happens to be a dear childhood
friend of mine from Youngstown,ohio.
Val actually co-hosted anepisode with me, with Susan
Engle, season two, episode 22.
So I got to know Kirsten a bitbetter through Val and she
reached out and you know Ithought it would be great to
(02:49):
have someone local.
She's the parent of three adultchildren.
She has a great perspective onparenting and is willing to work
hard with me and for all of you.
So welcome, kirsten, to Biteyour Tongue.
We're so happy you're takingthis journey with us.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Thank you, Denise.
I am so excited and honored tobe here.
I had so much fun co-hostingwith you on the Joshua Coleman
episode, I thought why not givethis a go permanently?
So I'm ready to get to work andI may as well start by letting
listeners know about ourexciting guest.
Today.
We're welcoming Pam Tronson, acertified life coach with a
specialty in mother-daughterrelationships.
(03:29):
She actually trained with oneof your earlier guests, Roshka
Hasseldine, so you can listen tothat episode with Roshka on our
website or on any podcastplatform, from Apple to Spotify
or anything in between.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I love that episode with Roshka, and I have a
daughter who just turned 35.
So I love that episode and Iknow this one's going to be
great too.
It's a topic everyone seems towant to talk about.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
I think it's really important.
Not only are we mothers ofdaughters, but we're also
daughters of our own mothers.
So I found that kind of aninteresting little twist I was
thinking about the other day.
But I'm fortunate, I have agood relationship with my
daughter.
But that hasn't happened,naturally, without some struggle
from both of us from time totime and, I'm sure, at the right
times teenage years and allthat.
But what strikes me about thestruggles, not just with mothers
(04:18):
and daughters, but families ingeneral, is that we're living in
a time when people are cravingconnections and yet at the same
time it's so difficult, and Idon't know why it has to be so
difficult.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
No, you're absolutely right.
I was talking to someone thismorning and I think we all have
much closer relationships withour kids than probably previous
generations.
But I want to say two things towhat you just said.
One, you're lucky to have yourmother, and that makes sense
that you're going to see thisfrom both angles.
I've lost my mother, but Istill, when I listen to these
things, I think, oh, I couldhave been a better adult
(04:52):
daughter.
The other thing I want to sayis you mentioned the teenage
years and such.
For me, the teenage years werenothing.
It's been the young adult yearsthat's been much harder.
So I think for everyone, yeah,it's just a different ball game.
So on to Pam.
Now, before I do the formalintroduction, I want to tell you
every Monday she sends out amessage and you can sign up for
(05:17):
a message through her website,which is PamTronsonCoachingcom,
and I'll put a link to that inour episode notes.
But every week I find somethingI love, and I said to Pam when
she was joining us today I justread your things and I, like you
, there's just something abouther.
But this week she talked aboutconflict and she asked readers
to examine how they handleconflict and if it doesn't work,
(05:37):
how they can reframe.
It really hit home for me,because hard for me to admit,
but I am the person that argues.
So when conflict hits me, Imany times want to prove I'm the
right one.
And you know what?
I do this with my adultdaughter sometimes and I
realized how much I have to stopbecause there's no right or
(05:58):
wrong in this.
So it made me really kind ofrethink anything.
But anyway, I just wanted toshare that Before I get in again
.
She is going to tell us aboutherself and how she got into
this, but I want her to readsomething that I think I read on
her website.
So I wonder, pam, would youread that piece of copy that I
sent to you earlier?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Absolutely.
There are words on my website.
There are also words on myheart, I think I love and adore
both of my daughters, yet I wasfrustrated and confused by the
relationship that was unfoldingwith each of them.
It looked nothing like what Ihad imagined it would be, and it
often consumed me.
How could there be such angstbetween me and these beautiful
(06:42):
souls?
I believe I had given my all to, and when I looked around, all
I could see were the moms whoseemed to be able to
successfully work through thatwhich I could not.
What had I done wrong?
What had I missed?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I just get chills.
I don't know why, but I thinkthere are so many parents, and
moms in particular, that feelthat way.
When you have a young adult andKirsten and I were talking
about this a little bit earlierwe all try our very best,
absolutely, and when things goawry it's hard.
But anyway, welcome Pam, we'rehappy to have you.
Please share with our listenersa little bit more about you,
(07:20):
your story, because I'd likethat to come from you rather
than from us Sure.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Well, first and foremost, can I just say, denise
, how thrilled I was when youreached out to me.
I literally did the happy dance, thinking that there was
someone out there who wasbringing the spotlight to the
relationship us moms have withour kids.
Because there's a generalassumption, I think, in the
(07:44):
world that, oh yeah, once you'rean empty nester, everything is
lovely, the kids leave, and thentheir lives are great and our
lives are great and nobody talksabout it.
And it's challenging I meanespecially now all the different
things that are going on in ourworld and for our kids' world
things that are going on in ourworld and for our kids' world
and the fact that you're doingthis.
(08:06):
I'm so happy that you've takenthe time and made the effort.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
And I'm honored to be here today to be able to chat
with you.
Well, we're happy to have you,and this is Kirsten's first
episode as my new co-host, soshe is putting her mark on this
too, and we both know that thisis all we talk about with our
friends, so why not make apublic forum for it?
Anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Well for me, I decided back in the 80s that I
wanted to be a life coach whichsounds kind of odd because I
don't know that there was such athing back then but I had
worked with Tony Robbins, bothas as a participant and then I
had worked as a volunteer.
It was when he was stillgetting started and he didn't
have the big staff that he had,and I just decided I'd watched
(08:53):
so many people have these epictransformations in their lives.
I was maybe one of them and Iknew that's what I wanted to do,
and clearly it took me a littlewhile to get here.
But in 2018, I had my secondcertification in life coaching
and it was when I started totake it on as my full-time
(09:15):
occupation.
And it was funny becauseeverybody talks about niching
down, like what are you going tospecialize in?
For a lot of people, it's thething that they've had the most
challenges with, and for me, Iwas like, well, I didn't know
what I'm going to do because mylife's been really great and,
yes, I'm on my second marriage.
You know I always say you onlyget married twice, but I was
(09:40):
like my life seemed to be goingpretty well.
It wasn't like I thought I wassuffering in any way and I think
the universe heard me and wentoh, let's give her something to
suffer about.
And that was when thingsstarted to kind of get a little
rocky.
I have two adult daughters.
They're both in their 20s andthings got really challenging
(10:01):
and it was really hard and itwas like okay, so here's what
I'm going to apply all of mylife coaching to.
And I worked through so muchand I was making so much
progress and at the time I waskind of a general life coach for
women in their forties, fifties, sixties kind of thing.
I was off on a retail therapyafternoon and walked into the
(10:22):
store and saw this coaster thatsaid you are the mom everyone
wishes they had.
And I flat out lost it rightthere in the store and it was
just like dagger in my heart.
But I'd been doing so much work.
I was like, damn it, I ambuying this thing for myself in
honor to the work that I've beendoing.
And I left and I was sitting inmy driveway with the mascara
(10:45):
stains on the front of beendoing.
And I left and I was sitting inmy driveway with the mascara
stains on the front of my faceand it was like I got this
sensor.
I heard this voice, or whateverit was, that said you're not
done yet, and I was.
When you talk about conflictstyles, I was one of those
people who would go, oh, Ireally messed that up.
Okay, I'm going to pretend thatnever happened.
I'm going to go over here.
(11:05):
I wasn't good at addressingthings and it was like my rally
cry that no, I still had yearsto become the mom that I'd
always wished I would be or Ialways hoped to be, and I was in
the habit of making a videoevery week and I made a video
(11:27):
about my experience.
I don't really know what havinga video go viral means, but it
was on Instagram and, before Iknew it, I had a following and
what was funny well, maybe notfunny, no-transcript to see that
(12:12):
the shame is what drags us intoa corner and makes us
incompetent and makes us thething that gets in the way of
the repair that's needed.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I just want to say something as you say this and I
apologize because I should neverinterrupt a guest, but I didn't
want to forget what you saidabout you still had time to make
a change, and what I'mrealizing as a parent of adult
children is and I've said thison a couple other episodes this
is actually the longestrelationship we'll ever have
(12:43):
with them.
All that we did being roomparents or running them to
soccer, or making sure they werein the right school did their
homework I mean it mattered, butnot like this second stage does
now, because we have a chancefor a real relationship.
We were a parent back then.
Now, as they say, we're almostlike a consultant and we have to
(13:07):
be there, but not over.
Be there, does that?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
make sense and it's a huge learning curve.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Did you feel that way , Kirsten?
It's a learning curve.
They don't listen to everythingyou say anymore.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
They don't listen to most of what you say initially
and then almost guaranteed theycome back later and they say I
know you told me this, but andyou were right, and yes, if I
had really just learned thelesson to have listened to you
from the beginning, anyway, witheverything, I'd be good.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Sometimes, Anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Pam, yeah Well.
And then I give the advice andI'm like, who was that?
Am I doing that?
Like, oh, that's interestingahead.
Pam, yeah Well.
And then I give the advice andI'm like, who was that?
Am I doing that?
Like, oh, that's interestingperspective, pam, how about you
apply that to your life?
But yes, no, completely, I knowwhat you're saying, but yeah,
so that's how I got to be whereI'm at.
And I have to say it's funny.
I had a couple of peopledifferent coaches that I work
(14:01):
with, where I said I'm thinkingof niching down and I want to
work.
I just want to work with momswho have challenging
relationships with their adultdaughters, and the response I
got a number of times was like,well, you know, I don't really
know if there's a market forthat, and I was thinking one of
them was a man.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
So you know thank you ?
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, thank you.
I was going to say that.
Yeah, that's what I was goingto say.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Wait a minute, we've got male listeners.
Kirsten Stop, they know a lot.
Anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
No, we're not busting on anyone.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I'm teasing.
I'm teasing and I know you'reteasing.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
It's something that we, I don't know.
Like I say, we just all dialed.
And then in the intro that youasked me to read, that's one of
our biggest curses is, we lookat all of the other people who
(14:54):
think they've got it dialed.
We think that they somehow aredoing something right and we're
somehow doing something wrong,and it's just another aspect of
it that inevitably will sink theboat.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Do you think social media plays into that?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
We're seeing everyone else's play out in front of us.
Oh yeah, I mean absolutely.
But when we can recognize howthat's affecting us and our
lives.
Think of the impact it's havingon our kids.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
I mean, I'm kind of happy to be in my 60s.
I wouldn't want to be goingthrough that right now in my
life.
I just think that social mediais awesome, the internet is
awesome, and it's also justanother one of those things that
you just got to learn how toget it on a short leash.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
All right, so let's get on to some of this.
What are some of the mostcommon challenges or conflicts
that you think arise betweenmothers and daughters?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head, denise.
There is an aspect I mean, likeour generation, we have been so
involved in our kids' lives.
I was raised in a family whereyou had to come home for dinner
when the streetlights came onand my parents had no idea where
I was half the time Schools,grades they knew nothing of that
(16:10):
.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And not that I had neglectful no no, no, all of us
grew up that way.
All of us grew up that way.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, amazing parents , but they weren't involved in
our lives.
But I think there's agenerational turnover.
I feel sorry for my mom.
I was a wild child.
I was everybody's nightmare, Ibet.
But I experienced that and cameout of it with the idea of, oh,
it's going to be different whenI'm a mom.
(16:36):
I'm not going to, that's goingto be.
Those things will change whenI'm a mom and that's been
happening for generation aftergeneration after generation
after generation.
We as a whole parent in responseto the way we were parented and
you see the ebbs and flows ofthe different kinds of attitudes
towards it.
But that's one of the thingslike it's just, it's just
(16:58):
different.
We're so much more involved andthen all of a sudden we get to
this part where we're supposedto like go sit in the stands.
It can feel like a jumping offthe bridge moment, because
there's a moment when we're theycall us all the time in college
, or we're so involved in theirlife and they're, you know,
their boy.
They get told about theirboyfriends and their what are we
(17:20):
thinking about for career andall this kind of stuff.
And I always use the analogy.
We've been the coach on thefield with them year after year
after year after year, and thenall of a sudden, the next season
starts and you're asked to go,sit in the stands and watch and
applaud when things go well andgo, oh, when they drop a pass.
(17:43):
But no one's asking you like.
It's not your job to be thecoach anymore.
And crossing that bridge is isvery challenging, and a lot of
women get so wrapped up in theidentity of, of, of being that
amazing mom, that it's hard toput the fork down and step away
from the table.
But it's necessary for theevolution of this beautiful
(18:08):
being that you gave birth to.
They now need to go on andcreate their own life and create
their own people and find theirpeople.
It's how it's supposed tohappen.
But we're like the little puppy.
No, no, no, no.
See me, feel me, touch me, petme.
It's like no, no, no, no, no,see me, feel me, touch me, pet
me.
It's like no, no, no, no, no.
(18:31):
You can't do this without me,can you?
And again, forgive me, I alwaysmake the analogy.
I always knew I was going tohave daughters and I was like
when I have daughters, they aregoing to be strong, confident,
independent, scrappy, capablewomen that can speak up for
themselves and do all thosethings.
And then it happened.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I was like I just that that took me a minute.
That took me a minute.
So what you're saying, yeah,then they became capable and
everything, and you were furtherback in the stands.
Oh, yeah, then I becameobsolete.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I kept thinking if I would have just put some fine
print into the contract thatsaid and be you always.
Be really nice to your mom.
I know that they're not nice,but it's exactly what we wanted.
And then it's happening andwe're like you know.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Well, the other thing I think that's funny too, and I
know you will both relate tothis is when they call us and
they go on and on and on becausethey want to share something,
and it may be they got into afight with a girlfriend or
whatever.
They get it all out, they leavethe room or they drop the phone
and you are still thinkingabout this and then a week goes
(19:36):
by, you haven't heard from yourkid, and the next time you talk
to them you're kind of like,okay, so what happened?
What are you talking about?
Or, oh, and that was nothing.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
No, that's absolutely true.
We keep it and keep it and keepit.
But so what are the strategies?
So a parent and a mother comesto you, or a mother, maybe
sometimes the adult child yousaid also will come to you, or
do they sometimes come together?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, I've had a lot of times people will come
together.
I have always.
I'm going to say, most of myclients are the moms and I love
it that way, to be honest,because I am a firm believer.
It only takes one person.
It's physics right.
If one person can change, itwill dramatically improve the
(20:19):
dynamics of the relationship.
And I figure I've been on thisplanet for 35 years, 38 years
longer than they have.
Why not?
Why shouldn't it be me?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Let's get to your office, okay, and what are the
kinds of strategies?
I think everything you said isexactly right.
We all were very over-involvedand, as you said that you say
you work with the moms I fullybelieve we have a lot of work to
do because we were used tobeing on the field coaching.
I always use the analogy of thetheater you were on the stage,
(20:50):
then you were in the orchestra,then you were in the mezzanine.
All of a sudden, you're out inthe lobby, so you don't even
know what's going on, which isexactly like you said, what it's
supposed to be, and I canintellectually talk about that a
hundred times and say that'swhere I'm supposed to be, blah,
blah, blah.
But when you don't get thatcall, or no one's going to be
home for Christmas or all ofthat, which is okay, it has to
(21:14):
be okay, they have their liveshow do you counsel us?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Of course it's different depending on the
person sitting in front of me,one of the things that I think I
start with every singlesessions, of all the sessions
that I do in order to have and Iknow I'm not going to be the
first person on your show that'sever said this, but in order to
have a better relationship withanything in your life, you have
to have a better relationshipwith your own self, and we often
(21:40):
start there.
I get a lot of moms that come tome that either feel just
beleaguered and beaten down.
Either they're there or they'rejust so damn angry.
It starts with being able to beable to find your center, get
back to your center, confidencebuilding, and I think one of the
(22:02):
greatest things to build ourconfidence is to be able to
understand how our mind'sworking and how we're processing
what's happening to us.
So we spent a lot of time in thebeginning working on having a
better understanding of what itis that we're putting out there
and how it could potentially beperceived, and part of it or
(22:24):
maybe the next step is to beable to walk a mile in their
shoes, gain some compassion andinsight into what your kids are
going through, to createperspective.
As to, one of my favoritequestions is what else could be
true, just to be able tounderstand what it is that
they're dealing with, whatthey're going through, and not
(22:46):
making it just about us.
And a third component isunderstanding what it would look
like like what we want to seehappen.
What's the change?
It is that we're most afterwhat would have the most impact,
and then you start making stepstowards how we get to achieve
that, and then you start makingsteps towards how we get to
achieve that.
If there are any particularpatterns or dynamics that you
(23:08):
see frequently in your practicethat are more common than others
, Parents want to beover-involved and feel as though
(23:29):
and I'm going to throw thisword right back out from where
it came feel as though they'reentitled to be that person in
their kids' lives, and so it'sjust helping them to redefine
and reshape their attitudetowards the relationship.
I see a lot of people that areso wrapped up in worry.
We've come to accept worry inour lives as something that's
normal.
Well, of course we're going toworry.
Of course it's an accepted partof motherhood and I don't think
it should be.
(23:50):
There's a lot of moms where wespend some time breaking that
whole concept down andcommunication.
One of the primary things islearning how to not take
everything personally, becausewe get wrapped up into our own
world and our own story that wekeep telling ourselves, the
story that we, you know, we tellall our friends about this
(24:10):
thing that's going on, and wejust tell the same story over
and over and over again, and allof our friends, of course, are
going oh you poor thing, youdon't deserve that.
You will get the support andthe comfort that we need from
them, but that's not my job asyour coach.
My job is to yank the rug outfrom underneath you a little bit
(24:31):
and let's see it for what it is.
Let's get clear about whatwe're working with.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Okay, I want to go back to worry, but I want to
talk about that big E word.
You used entitlement.
Okay, it's very interestingbecause we just interviewed
someone recently who said hefeels that this generation is
the most caring, the mostsocially responsible, but also
(24:58):
the most entitled.
And I just dawned on me.
You have two entitled people,so you have the entitled
daughter that expects this fromthe mother and the entitled
mother that expects this fromthe daughter.
And that's a scene.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, oh, it is, and I see that over and over again.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
What do you say to someone who?
How do you work with them toget this entitlement from them?
Parred?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
down.
Well, again, it's discovery,it's curiosity why does it live
there, why is it a part of therelationship?
And, digging a little bitunderneath, there's so much
historical stuff going on thatwe're sometimes not completely
aware of.
We live in a very patriarchalsociety where and I say that I'm
(25:51):
not a, I don't hate men, I'mnot a, I'm not someone that's
going to be out there, I'm not abra burning feminist.
But we've got to be aware ofthat influence on our
relationships and how that'splaying out.
But I think, even just in theawareness of it, denise is so
(26:11):
huge.
I think I have a lot of peoplethat feel as though they're
entitled to have thatrelationship with their daughter
or entitled to have thatrelationship with their
grandchildren.
I know we're not going to gointo that, but it's an
interesting bit of quicksand tostep into and I think, before
you can start throwing thatentitled, it can mean honestly.
(26:34):
It means a lot of people cometo me and say, oh yeah, I think
my kids are entitled and wethink they're entitled because
they were sent to a good school.
We helped them choose a schoolthat we thought was most
appropriate for them and thenthey've gone to a college.
There was a time in our worldwhere college wasn't necessarily
a given, it was an option, andnot everybody went to college.
(26:57):
I mean, I did college until Iwas 29.
But it's like it's thisentitled.
You know, we look at it interms of that it's just
something we're going to give tothem.
We look at it in terms of thatit's just something we're going
to give to them.
Well, at the end of the day,we're just trying to help them
to have everything we think theyneed in order to have the best
lives they can.
What's funny too, I have a lotof people that will come to me
(27:17):
and they'll say if I ever saidsomething like that to my mom?
In that vein and it goes handin hand with the idea of when we
try to kind of curate theirlives so they don't have to deal
with the hardships that we hadI think we sometimes have this
expectation that they can beable to teletransport themselves
(27:38):
into our childhood and ourlives and go oh yeah, mom sure
had it different than I do.
Like, isn't mom amazing becauseI don't have to deal with these
things that she dealt with?
Except that they don't havethat power.
What they have, it's relative.
They're normal.
Normal is a very relative thing, so of course I'm going to go
(28:01):
to college, of course I'm goingto do all those things.
That's what everybody does, andwe're happy to help them
because we can, you're exactlyright.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I want to ask another question Do you see a
difference in families with twogirls or three girls and a boy
and a girl?
What's the dynamic there interms of the son versus the
daughter and that sort of thing?
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Well, again, depends on the family.
I think it's interesting.
I've looked for research on it.
There is no research on itbecause most research is done by
men and the fathers ofpsychology are never going to
dive into this one.
But there is a very unique bondbetween mother and daughter and
it's historical.
We can look at it from anevolutionary standpoint, but
(28:49):
it's there, it exists, and it'sa different kind of bond.
Information is transmittedthrough a glance, as opposed to
any other kind of demonstrativeway.
It's different, and I don'thave voice, so I don't have a
literal experience of that, butI do think it's incredibly.
(29:11):
It's a different relationshipwith the boys and let's face it.
Okay, so go back to thepatriarchal society.
Go back, however manygenerations I mean.
Our world was created where theman sits at the top of the
pyramid as the person of wisdomwho provides for the family and
who doesn't really have anyresponsibilities to the family
(29:34):
per se other than to provide forthem, and then the woman is
underneath, the wife'sunderneath, doing everything for
everyone all the time, runningherself crazy, and she in some
ways has authority, of courseuntil dad comes home or until
that son rises up beside her.
It's a different way that theand again I'm talking five or
(29:56):
six generations ago thedifferent way that son is looked
at.
He's going to be the one thattakes over the family business
or he's going to be whateverthat is.
He has a different role andthey're treated differently.
I have a lot of clients who haveone of each and they're like oh
no, my son adores me, he's apiece of cake, he's whatever.
It's a different relationshipand, like I say, I have no
(30:17):
literal experience of it, but Ihave witnessed it and the
dynamics of people come to me.
I have one client who has fivedaughters and she told me that
in the first place and I waslike I'd rather drive a red hot
poker in my eye.
I can't imagine what that wouldbe like and she's kick-ass,
(30:38):
she's an amazing woman.
But I can't imagine what itwould be like to have five
daughters, six women, in thesame household, unless, of
course, you had six guest housesor something.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
One of the things that I have found the most
difficult is of my three kids.
I have two boys and a girl.
My daughter is always the oneto point out whatever it is
about me, about my character, asshe sees it about.
It doesn't matter what it is,and I guess that I've always
(31:12):
looked at it as her figuring outwho she is.
And in order to figure out whoshe is, she's needed to do a
kind of this push pull thing,because she'll do it and she'll
be pretty tough on me, and thenfive minutes later she needs a
hug.
And so is that a common theme?
(31:33):
Is it something that they needto do in their own development?
That's how I viewed it.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Well, I think it's a really healthy thing for them to
do, because the other option isto not have any interaction
with you, growing up in thiskind of banter back and forth,
and then they're the ones thatjust can't wait to get out of
the house and you never hearfrom them again.
And I think, like, in asituation like that, I think
what's really helpful and what Itry to do with a lot of my with
(32:01):
my clients, is reframe the ideaof blame when they start
pointing out all those thingsthat they think are wrong with
you, to be able to reframe thatin a way where I like to see it
as data, because they are again,I think you're dead on.
They are testing out theories,the radar's up and they're
(32:22):
trying to figure out themselves,often through you, because
there's so many of our ownqualities that, sadly, we see
reflected in our kids.
Can they just get the goodparts, please?
But so it is a discovery andyou're safe, right?
Remember when our kids weretoddlers and they're like oh
yeah, they save all their worstbehavior for you because they
(32:46):
can't.
Well, guess what?
That doesn't necessarily goaway.
It's just more personal whenyou're talking to a 17-year-old
or a 15-year-old, a 30-year-old,let's forget those teen years.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, it really develops a lot more.
When you're 17, you can stillsay, well, they're a teenager.
But when they're 27, 28, 29, 30, you sort of expect this
respect.
And, like Lawrence Steinbergsaid, he's the one who wrote
this recent big book on youradult children.
Gone are the days of honor thyfather and mother.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, Well, honestly, we can see all the statistics
about how we're generally movingaway from organized religion
again, for better, for worse,but that's a tenet that comes to
us so clearly from that and thefamily and all that kind of
stuff.
Yeah, we're moving into a worldwhere we do think more about
the individual than we do as agroup.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
What do you tell a client?
I want to go back to what yousaid about worry number one as a
group.
What do you tell a client?
I want to go back to what yousaid about worry number one and
also what Kirsten said about.
But you have to have a lot ofself-esteem to listen and not
react, okay.
So I want to know about that.
And I want to also know whatyou tell a parent who does worry
all the time the kid.
(34:02):
They may have the distance, thekid's doing great, they're on
their own, but they worry theycould get fired from this job.
Are they working hard enough?
Should they really be datingthis person?
I don't like the neighborhoodthey're living in you could
think of all the differentthings you worry about.
Did they send in a thank younote to Aunt Sally when she sent
them that money?
How does a parent deal with allthat anxiety and worry?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Well, the anxiety and the worry and I actually have
to say I just finished creatingthis little 50-page mini book
that I'm going to be I'm notsure when the podcast will air,
but that'll be available andI've gone through it.
I just took a massive, deepdive into worry and I think one
of the things that even I gotclarity on as I was writing was
(34:46):
that a lot of our worry isconnected to control.
We, as moms, were expected tobe in control, right.
That was a part of our jobdescription and we had to be
able to control.
We were supposed to be able tocurate, we were supposed to be
able to orchestrate, know whatto do, control the environment
(35:08):
as much as we could, and, ofcourse, I think of letting out
the rope through the years wherethey got to have more and more
autonomy.
But there's still a little voicein all of our heads as moms, I
think, that says, oh, you couldbe doing something about that.
Maybe you should try to fix that, or we want to still stay so on
(35:29):
their everything and the thingwith control.
It's like we don't have control,we cannot control the other
humans, and for some of myclients I always say put it on a
sticky note and put it on yourfridge, put it on your mirror,
put it everywhere, tattoo itacross your forehead, get it on
the inside of your arm.
(35:49):
We cannot control the otherhumans.
We can't.
We have no control over them.
We have no control over whathappens to them.
But our brains go down therabbit hole because and this is
where worry comes in we wouldrather be able to hold on to the
idea that they're going to behomeless, living under a bridge,
(36:10):
like if that's our worst fear.
We would rather go there andknow the outcome as opposed to
just going well, I don't reallyhave any control, I don't really
know what's going to go on.
Your brain does not like that.
Your brain wants something thatit can hold onto, and releasing
control means releasing control, being at peace with the next
(36:35):
thing that comes.
Boy I really believe that, andworry is that thing.
We want to know what's going tohappen, even if it's horrible,
which is a crazy thing that ourbrain does.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
But if we can't control them, we can control our
worry, meaning I'm going tohang on to this worry because I
can't change the situation.
And I also just wonder I'venever thought about this.
The stronger you are, the moresuccessful you are as a woman.
You've been in control of abusiness.
You've been in control.
You're not used to not being incontrol.
I have a personal experience.
My daughter was 35.
(37:08):
She was getting married.
She really wanted to do it alland I've done events my whole
life, always in control of thewhole thing.
It was the hardest thing I everdid was to sit back and bite my
tongue and watch it all happen.
And I would say to my husbandI'm making all these lists.
And he said, well, she's doingit, why are you doing it?
Well, I'm making all theselists.
And he said, well, she's doingit, why are you doing it?
(37:28):
Well, I'm not sharing them withher, but I got to go through in
order for me to be quiet.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Well, and I have to say, denise, the fact that you
did that, it's something that Irecommend to clients all the
time.
We've got to get in the habitof writing it down, whether it
be a list, or I encourage thisthing called thought downloads,
just to literally get the stuffthat's swirling in our brains
out of our brains and onto apiece of paper.
Horrible, crappy thoughts can'thide if they're on a piece of
(37:58):
paper.
They can hide in the backs ofour brains.
But if you write down, if youthink about all the things
you're worried about and youwrite them down and you look at,
if you're honest in what it isyou're writing, and then you
look at the words, you're like,well, that's stupid.
Why would I think that?
No, that's not going to happen,I don't need to worry about it.
Like I say, bad thoughts can'thide when you've got them down
(38:21):
on paper.
So it is.
I'm glad that you went andwrote down lists, major lists of
all the things that you wantedto focus on.
It's healthy.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
I did tell her I worried, and worried and worried
.
This was the most perfectwedding ever.
You knew exactly what you weredoing, exactly what to do, and
I'm glad I bit my tongue.
It's hard for me to stand back.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Oh yeah, I must say, like in that moment when you did
it and it hardest thing you'veever done, that's the other
thing we don't do really areally good job as moms,
especially as being able tocelebrate it.
I, this is what I wanted to do,this was what I chose to do,
and then give yourself a goldstar, a little bit of the happy
dance.
It's like, oh yeah, I got this,I did it Like we have to be
(39:05):
able to celebrate the wins.
Our brains are wired.
We are innately driven to findeverything that's gone wrong, so
we have to counterbalance it byactively finding the things
that go right and hang on tothem.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Well, that brings my next point up, which is to go
back to something you saidearlier about self-care and how,
the importance of that.
What self-care practices andstrategies do you recommend to
your clients?
Speaker 1 (39:35):
One of my most favorite ones.
It's called boundaries, because, okay, I'm going to just weave
a couple of things in here.
If I want to get my listeners,my followers, riled up, I just
drop in a post about respect andthere'll be like 200 responses.
Everybody's got an opinionabout respect and these kids
(39:58):
don't have respect anymore, andyadda, yadda, yadda, yadda,
yadda.
Well, it's a hot button for somany people and there's so many
things like that, like respect.
We have to be able to have itfor ourself first, and that's
how I think we encourage respectinto our lives.
We have to learn how to loveourselves first before we can
(40:20):
expect another human to love usfully, deeply.
And self-respect and boundaries.
I think that's why you haveboundaries.
Boundaries for me, that's whywe created boundaries, so it's a
form of self-respect.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Give me an example of a boundary you might have with
your daughter.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
I'm just thinking of some of the clients that I've
worked with, daughters who tendto get really overly emotional
on a telephone conversationwhere you can say, and again,
boundaries are not what you needthem to do.
Boundaries are not a way tocontrol the other humans.
Boundaries are a way you set aboundary.
(41:00):
If you do this, then I'm goingto do this, but it's not like
I'm going to scream.
It's like if we get on a phonecall and it gets too heated, I'm
going to just set this outahead of time.
I reserve the right to raise myhand and we can end the
conversation.
I'm going to take care ofmyself.
This is nonproductive.
(41:21):
So in conversation, if thingsget too heated, I'm reserving
the right.
I will step away from theconversation.
I will hang up, I will go for awalk.
I will do that to take care ofmyself.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
And then will you connect later.
How do you reconnect after that?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
No, there's always yeah, you always want to be able
to set it up where a chance.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
You just need a breather.
You just needed a breather.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Well, it's need a breather, but it's also it's a
message like no, you don't getto talk to me like that.
I want to talk about this, Iwant to get deep, it can get
ugly, but you don't get to curseat me, you don't get to call me
names, you don't get to be youknow.
And the thing is like even just, I'm just thinking of one
client in particular, like sheis aware, or she's become aware,
that her daughter goes to thatspot when she feels out of
(42:10):
control, when she feels thingsspiraling.
So, again, we're not going totake that personally.
That's about my daughter,that's not about me, that's
about my daughter.
But, fyi, when the switch getsflipped and you go to that space
, when the switch gets flippedand you go to that space, we're
going to take a pause.
We want to have productive,strong, meaningful, deep
(42:30):
conversations.
That doesn't.
That's never going to be a partof it.
And the other thing my coach, Ilove her so deeply, but her
favorite words are I love youand no.
So when you have a situationwhere your daughter just expects
you to be available, orwhatever that is, I have a
(42:53):
couple of clients whose daughterthey are the second nanny and
they just don't feel as thoughthey'll be out doing something
nice for themselves and daughterwill call up and say are you
close by?
Can you just come by and do youknow?
And in some ways it's likethere's part.
There's days where you're like,woo, yeah, I'll be there in two
(43:14):
minutes, but you're alsoallowed on the days where, no,
you have plans.
You don't have to change yourday and cancel all your plans
just so you can go be with them.
It's for fear that if you don't, you might get not asked back
again.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Why do parents feel that way so much nowadays?
I think what you just said iscritical.
It's like, yes, I'll be there.
You want me to send you that,I'll send it right away.
It's.
It's almost like it's weflipped roles.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Yeah, yeah, we do.
And again, I made the joke ofbeing the puppy.
We just you puppy.
Whatever attention you can giveme is I'll take it.
I'll take it, but that's.
I always have the expressionyou got to lay down to be a
doormat.
If you're in a place whereresentment is building, where
(44:04):
you feel that, to me that's thetelltale sign.
You need to set a boundary iswhen resentment is storming into
your life.
That's the time where you'vegot to go.
I got to stand up for me andit's courage and it's bravery,
because you know what, as women,what do you mean?
I mean you've got your own needs.
What do you mean?
You have your own plans.
It's like, come on, you'resupposed to be the mom,
(44:25):
everything for everybody, allthe time.
You're supposed to be selfless.
For generations we've beenpraised as being those selfless
mothers that put everyone else'sneeds above their own.
I remember being with myhusband and his mom, who is one
of the most amazing women on theplanet.
God bless St Janie.
(44:46):
She had six children, five boys, one girl.
It's 96 years old, so amazing.
But we were talking one timeand there was her son saying
just this my mom, she is justthe most selfless individual.
She's never put.
She's always puts everybody'sneeds first and going on on
(45:07):
idolizing this version that Ithink in his brain he believes
that that's what we are allaspiring to.
And she was so cute.
She kind of looked at me andraised one eyebrow and gave me a
little wink and I was like oh,you got this mom Cause.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
She was like Well, you know, and people don't think
of that because really that issuch a compliment, she's so
selfish.
So we talked about this withRoshka a little bit, and I know
you know, and we thought weactually yeah, we titled the
episode the burnt hamburgerbecause you're at the barbecue
(45:42):
the hamburgers, there's onethat's burnt.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Who takes it?
Yeah, yeah, why?
I mean, look at the herd oflions.
The female lions all go out andthey bring back food for the
pack and then they retreat backand they sit back until
everybody else has eaten.
And then it's their turn.
I mean it's just somehow.
(46:04):
I mean it is the way.
It's that generational thingthat we've been raised.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Well, and also they came from us.
Yeah, many breastfed them.
You know it's very nurturing,so it's a real hard balance.
One of your newsletters youtalked about adult daughters not
really needing us, or wantingus.
In fact, you said they mightnot like us, so that hurts.
How do parents deal with that,with their daughter and with
(46:30):
themselves?
Speaker 1 (46:31):
Well, I think that the whole idea of I mean, you
got to look at the idea of beingneeded, right, our job we call
it raising kids we think of thispart of our life is that where
we're raising kids, we're notraising kids or raising adults.
The goal was to create and beable to launch these humans into
the world.
That didn't need us.
(46:52):
Like that's, that was a part,like that's a part of what we're
supposed to do.
We're supposed to be launchingadults that can be independent,
that can be all those things.
And it is hard, that'ssomething that we have to get
over.
No, they don't need us.
And instead of going over, no,they don't need us.
And instead of going, oh, theydon't need us to be able to go
(47:18):
whoo, and they don't need us.
Like it all depends on how yousay those words, you know like
that should be a big pat on theback.
They don't need us anymore.
Like it's awesome.
My husband's really good atthat.
I don't know I'm getting better, but he's very good at
applauding that part of theprocess and it's a great thing
and the whole love.
Or they don't like me anymore.
We all know relationships aremessy and believing that they're
(47:40):
not supposed to be messy is avery I do not recommend it.
We think we have this idea ishow it's supposed to turn out
and what it should look like itshould look like a Hallmark
movie, shouldn't it?
Oh yeah, the way it's beenfilmed and all that kind of
stuff.
And that's one of the things Ialways say is like be very
(48:00):
careful when the word shouldpops up into your thoughts,
because should is like couldcovered in shame, you know.
So we have Could is shouldcovered in shame, that's great.
We look at this life that we'vecreated.
It is supposed to be messy bydesign.
And how many times have youthought, oh my gosh, you know
(48:23):
what I love you but I don'treally like you right now.
It's okay to say that aboutyour kids.
Your kid's pretty good aboutsaying it about you.
Those are very easy words toroll off their mouth.
It's okay in the relationshipwhere there'll be times where
you're looking at your kid goingyou know what.
(48:44):
That's not my favorite versionof you, but but especially with
I know I said it before, butwith a mother and a daughter,
like there is a love part andwe'll we'll call it love, we'll
call it a bond.
I don't know if it's anumbilical cord or what it is.
We are corded to our moms.
(49:04):
There is a cord running betweenmother and daughter that I call
it love.
It's at the base and I thinkit's something that it never
goes away.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
It is interesting.
Why does love have to be thisvery singular idea?
Based on what you just said,love should encompass all of the
messy and and the reason why wewant to do what it is we're
doing.
So I think that the word lovejust needs to be redefined,
(49:37):
maybe.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I think that we can applyit in so many ways.
When you get that list fromyour kids of all the things that
you've done wrong and all thethings that they're holding you
accountable for, it's an act oflove Because in its essence
they're saying here's the thingsthat I'm very challenged by.
(50:02):
It's kind of a cry for help.
Can we fix this?
Speaker 2 (50:06):
It's also they care enough to bring it to you fix
this.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
It's also they care enough to bring it to you.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Yes, yes, they care enough to give you that list of
all the things that you'vemessed up on, or that they think
let's be clear here that theyperceive that you've messed up
on Yep, yep, absolutely, andthat's their belief, which means
you got to take it.
But yeah, because we've allmessed up, we've all messed up.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Of course, that was one of the things that I had to
do a lot of work on.
For me is I'm a perfectionist.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
And the idea of that I made mistakes, that I let me
say it, Let me try.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Failed, right, okay, wait.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
I said it.
Yeah, I mean like that was ahard thing for me to wrap my
arms around?
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Did you come to terms with you?
Don't fail if you keep trying.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
You know what?
I come from a school wherefailing is highly encouraged.
Oh, okay, Right, it was thequestion.
Well, how many times have youfailed today?
Well, I don't fail, it's notwhat I do, but it was like no,
we turned the language and theenergy around behind that word.
It's like how many times youfailed today?
Because failing is learning.
Speaker 3 (51:15):
So, pam, we're getting kind of the end of this
and really wanted to say thankyou for all of it.
It's so great to have you, andwe always ask our guests to
leave us with two or threetakeaways that you want our
listeners to remember.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Okay, takeaways that you want our listeners to
remember.
Okay, one of them.
My father always used to say tome you have a choice.
You get to be either part ofthe problem or part of the
solution, and I think, as moms,we often find ourselves in a
default position of being a partof the problem when it comes to
a challenging relationship withour kids.
(51:49):
And my thing is to be able toown that Instead of going go
problems.
Again, we were talking aboutfailure.
To be able to own the idea that, yeah, yeah, there's been some
things that haven't gone thatwell, there's been some things
I've done wrong.
And to own them, because whenyou own the air quote problems
(52:14):
like, you get to takeresponsibility for them, and
some people are are.
You know that feels like areally horrible thing to do, but
when you own a problem, thenyou have the power to do
something about it.
So it's that kind ofresponsibility, that taking a
responsibility that I think isincredibly empowering for us all
(52:38):
.
The other thing I would like toleave with is learn how to ask
better questions.
When we throw a question outinto the universe, our brain
will answer it.
So when we say why does thisalways happen to me your brain's
(53:01):
going to come back with becauseyou're dumb or because you're
worthless or because you're abad person.
Your brain is not the rightsource for answering questions
If you're asking bad questions.
So better questions to be ableto sit back and look at the
situation you're in and to hearthe thoughts, to hear the story
that's playing in your brain andto be able to take the pause
(53:23):
and go.
Is this serving me?
Does thinking this thought makeit better?
Another one of my favoritequestions I shared with you
already what else could be true?
What's the other aspect herethat I'm missing?
And then the other thing, too,that just implies the fact that
it is a choice.
It's like why am I choosing tothink this?
(53:44):
Why am I choosing this aspectof my story?
And I promise you there's abenefit there.
When we talk about falling intovictim mode, the one thing
that's really nice about victimmode you don't have to do
anything, you can just pointyour finger at other people.
I feel like this because mydaughter says these things, or
(54:06):
because she won't come to haveChristmas with us, or because
she, if you're in victim mode,you don't have to do anything.
You just can sit in that well,and point fingers at everybody
else.
So be curious, bring curiosityto the table and be curious
about the different things thatyou can do.
(54:27):
And the other thing I was goingto say and I think this I've
already touched on this a littlebit is that we often believe
that other people are doing it,but they're not.
Other moms that look likethey've got it all dialed,
they're not doing it right,they're doing it differently,
and we're all wildly differenthumans having our own experience
, or kids are wildly differenthumans having their own
(54:49):
experiences.
We have to be able to be fluidand to get off that whole
compare thing I don't rememberwho it was, but it always talks
about compare and despair, andthat could be more true than in
this particular situation.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
Those are so great.
Thank you so much and thanksfor joining us.
Those are so great.
Thank you so much and thanksfor joining us.
I'm so glad I reached out andwe'll be in touch.
This was terrific.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
We really appreciate you joining us well and I've
enjoyed it so much and, denise,I am eternally grateful for, for
the work you're doing and forallowing me to be a part of it.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
Thank you so that episode was a little long, but
she had so much to say and somany great things to say.
Thank you so much, Pam.
So much to think aboutListeners.
Please remember to check outPam's website,
PamTronsonCoachingcom that'sP-A-M-T-R-O-N-S-O-N-Coachingcom,
(55:47):
and make sure you sign up toget her.
I guess it's a document thathighlights the four pitfalls to
avoid with your adult daughter.
It's a really great piece ofwriting.
Speaker 3 (55:58):
Denise, thank you so much.
That was.
That was really great today.
She's obviously been doing thisfor a long time and has had
sort of a wealth of experiencepersonally, but also just with
her clients, and I just can'thelp but think not just for my
personally, but also just withour clients and I just can't
help but think, not just for mydaughter but also my
relationship with my mother thatthere's a lot of great pearls
of wisdom in all of this.
(56:19):
I'm excited to put some thingsin action.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
And I think there's a cross between your sons too.
All of this is about looking atourselves, and that's so
important.
Congratulations on your firstepisode, first real episode, and
welcome to Bite your Tongue.
So, anyway, and thanks so muchto Connie Warren Fisher, our
audio engineer.
Please remember to write to usat biteyourtonguepodcast at
gmailcom.
Let us know if you have anyquestions or ideas.
(56:44):
Remember to follow us onFacebook and Instagram and, once
again, any donation will keepus going.
Just go to our website atBiteYourTonguePodcastcom and
select support us.
You'll find lots of ways youcan help keep us going.
So, thanks so much.
Thanks for listening andremember, sometimes you say it,
(57:05):
kirsten, sometimes you just haveto bite your tongue.
Speaker 3 (57:09):
Thank, you.
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