February 24, 2025 • 57 mins
This episode is a "must listen" for an parent of an adult child on the brink of welcoming a grandchild.
We are thrilled to bring you a special episode with the wise and compassionate Kimberly Beppler, The Grandparent Doula.
Kimberly enlightens us with her journey from assisting postpartum families to recognizing the irreplaceable role grandparents can play in this delicate phase. We uncover her innovative approach of crafting a "menu" of support options, ensuring grandparents provide meaningful help without stepping on toes.
It's an episode of advice for those eager to strengthen family bonds while honoring the autonomy and boundaries of new parents.
Our conversation shifts to the fresh landscape of parenting and grandparenting, where emotional intelligence reigns supreme among millennials and Gen Z. This era demands a recalibration of old norms, as we explore the evolving expectations and challenges grandparents face today. Kimberly's insights highlight the delicate balance of offering support while respecting the independence and parenting styles of our children. Together, we navigate the fine line between being a source of wisdom and avoiding the imposition of outdated solutions, all while championing patience and empathy.
We also tackle the modern pressures surrounding parenting, with a focus on breastfeeding and the overwhelming sea of information new parents encounter. Balancing personal needs with familial responsibilities also takes center stage, as we share strategies for maintaining emotional and physical well-being, ensuring grandparents remain a vibrant and nurturing presence in the lives of their families.
A special call out to a product we love: Curiocity Travel Guides. The greatest tool of discovery and keepsake for traveling with kiddos. Listen for more on today's episode.
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send all ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com. Remeber to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Support US! Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Bite your Tongue, the podcast, and happy
February, happy Valentine's Dayand it's my birthday month, so
kind of exciting for me.
I'm Denise, and while we maynot be releasing episodes as
frequently these days, we'restill here to bring you valuable
insights and conversations withexperts to help you navigate
and strengthen yourrelationships with your adult
(00:25):
children.
That's what Bite your Tongue isall about.
Today's topic is especiallyclose to my heart.
If you caught our last episodein season four, you've heard the
exciting news I'm going to be agrandma.
Honestly, guys, I'm stillprocessing it because I really
never thought it would happen.
(00:45):
And here we are Now.
I want to make sure I get offon the right foot and hopefully
it's helpful to all of you too.
So today we're going to talk allabout grandparenting.
I'm thrilled to have KimberlyBeppler with us.
Kimberly is known as thegrandparent doula.
Yes, you heard that right.
Kimberly is known as thegrandparent doula.
(01:05):
Yes, you heard that rightgrandparent doula.
Her mission is to helpgrandparents become the loving,
supportive and a non-intrusivepresence in their
grandchildren's lives and, ofcourse, their adult children.
So, without further ado, let'sdive in.
Kimberly, welcome to the show.
We're so excited to have youhere Now.
You're the only one I couldfind that really deals with
(01:27):
grandparents, so why did youdecide to become a grandparent?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
doula hearing the parent perspective for 25 years.
And all of a sudden I was justliterally sitting at my computer
reading about postpartum and Ithought I have spent the
majority of my career trying tomake a dent in what postpartum
(01:54):
looks like for families.
I just had sort of an epiphanymoment to say how am I going to
actually change postpartum like,really make a revolution in
postpartum?
And I thought we have to getthe grandparents involved.
They're the only ones with theresources, the love, the
devotion that would dive in anddo postpartum and if you look at
(02:15):
it from historical perspective,that's what grandparents have
always done.
But we're kind of beingexcluded right now, which has
long lasting repercussions.
And so I just thought I need tochange the perspective of
grandparents to provide thepostpartum care that sets
families off and reducesdepression and increases parent
confidence, increases bonding,increases breastfeeding rates
(02:38):
just like I've been doing fordoulas but put it in the hands
of these wise lovers of theirchildren, devoted parents who
want to make a difference butdon't necessarily know how,
because they were never taughtto do that.
I mean, postpartum care hasn'tbeen present in our culture for
four or five generations atleast.
But they're in collectivecultures but it's not in our
(02:59):
individualistic culture, and Ithought this is what I got to do
.
I got to train the grandparentsand then I thought this is what
I got to do.
I got to train the grandparentsand then I thought how am I
going to do that?
Are they going to want tolisten to me?
I don't know.
And then I read Joshua Coleman'sbook about estrangement and it
broke my heart to read it and Iyet I thought this is the time.
I've had this goal to bringparents and grandparents
(03:20):
together for years, but I was sobusy working as a doula,
building up my doula agency,training new doulas I didn't
really have the time and I justkind of had a step back moment
and thought, if I'm going tohelp people avoid estrangement
or heal estrangement, I have tostart focusing on the people
that have the time, theinvestment, the energy and who
(03:43):
desire this so much and who arehaving their hearts broken.
Because rarely are you hearingfrom grown kids and new parents
that their hearts are broken,that they're estranged.
They're usually the ones doingthe estranging.
The grandparents are theheartbroken ones.
I thought this is thepopulation I need to serve.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
So let me ask you a quick, broad question.
You know I'm going to be agrandmother in April.
My daughter and her husbandlive quite a distance.
If you were going to give meone piece of advice as I begin
this journey, what would you say?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I would say make very specific offerings about what
you can do and then let yourgrown kids pick from those
offerings.
We call it a menu.
So basically, in my class, Iteach the grandparents make a
menu.
Here's all the things you cando.
Figure out what you want to do,offer it to your kids and let
them choose from what you wantto do, versus doing all the
(04:37):
things that they might expectyou to do or expecting them to
want the things that you offerthem.
Be very clear about what youcould do and what you want to do
and then, when they give youfeedback, be as positive as
possible and do the things thatmatter to them and let the other
things go, even though youmight have really wanted to do
it what sort of thing might agrandmother really want to do
(04:59):
that the child might really not.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Maybe the child only wants help with cooking and
cleaning and not touching thebaby at all.
Is that the kind of thingyou're thinking about?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Very much, so I have a lot of grandparents who want
to be in the delivery room.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
They want to be there the first week.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
They really, really want to help in a way that they
can kiss the baby and connectwith the baby, hold the baby.
And parents are not looking fora lot of that support right now
.
They don't want their parentsin the delivery room, they don't
want them even there in thefirst week.
They want to learn how tomanage their baby without their
parents so they can feel likethey're doing it, especially
that first baby.
I find they're a little moreamenable with the second and the
(05:34):
third.
The first one they really wantto prove to themselves they can
do it.
I find a lot of grandparentsjust waiting in the wings, like
waiting for news and waiting forpictures and waiting to be
invited, and they're they're notlikely to be invited into those
spaces.
So to say, here's all thethings I'd love to do in the
form of a menu.
Right, we never ordereverything on the menu.
(05:56):
We pick the things that we want.
So if we say here's some,here's some menu items I can do,
and then your kids pick andthen you just stick to the
things they want, you might bereally sad about the things that
they don't want, but you don'treally get to choose it, so you
have to cope with it in everyway that you can.
I think being prepared inadvance gives you time to let go
(06:16):
of those things to say likethey don't want me in the
delivery room.
I really had it in my head thatI was going to be there and this
where I wanted to be, and youjust have a chance to let go of
that and say this isn't wherethey want me, I'm not going to.
I'm not going to have thismoment.
I'm going to have to have othermoments that matter to me.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I'm just going to tell you what happened in my
situation.
I really respected exactly whatyou said.
My daughter and her husbandsaid they really want some time
at the beginning and she was duelate April.
She said I the beginning andshe was due late April.
She said I'd love you to come.
A few weeks later I madeflights to go in May.
Then a couple of weeks ago shesaid you know what, mom, I think
I really want you there beforethe baby's born Now, not to go
(06:54):
to the delivery room, not tohelp.
But she said you're the onlyperson I can trust to take care
of the dog, take care of thehouse.
When we leave, they don't haveany family there.
So I'm starting to feel likeI'm so glad to be asked.
But then I realized I said so.
Then when you come home fromthe hospital, you want me to
(07:14):
leave.
And she was sort of silent.
But is that common?
I mean, does that feel overlydemanding to you?
Nope, that's very very common.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Absolutely Especially with a first time couple,
especially when they're havingbabies a little bit later, like
in their 30s.
They have a very establishedlife.
They're not leaning on theirparents for very many things at
that point.
They often have pets that theylove, like their children, and
so for you to care for theirpets feels like you're loving
the grandbabies, because theydon't have babies yet and they
(07:43):
don't really know the differencebetween a pet and a baby.
That is their baby and theirreal baby arrives and they're
like oh wow, you're a pet.
Take some realization of thelove that you have for a human.
That really is meaningful tothem.
That's like you coming andcaretaking for their older kids
and it brings their anxiety down.
Because one of the biggestthings I hear from postpartum
parents I'm a bad dog mom, I'm abad cat mom, I'm not loving my
(08:06):
pets Because they've got whatfive, ten years invested in
those pets, Like they've been anoutpouring of their love, and
now they give all that to theirbaby and they're trying to hold
it together.
They feel like you're lovingthem that way.
So, yeah, I don't think that'stoo demanding.
I think that's too demanding.
I think that's pretty common,Pretty common and I would say
(08:26):
that speaks to their value,right?
Their value is make sure myhome is okay and not all food in
my refrigerator is rotting ifwe're in the hospital for three
days, Right, right.
But I would also say from agrandparent perspective, putting
you in the vicinity of whereyour kids are when their babies
first come home means you haveumpteen more opportunities to
support them when they decidethat they need it.
(08:48):
If you are far away and can't,they're not going to have you
fly in, but if you're in afriends and things are falling
apart, bingo, you are in.
Right.
They're going to be like mom,come back, we need you.
And now you have theopportunity to be needed, maybe
in a way that you want to be.
And I think if you're creatingthat distance, you wouldn't be
(09:09):
utilized and then you might missout on some really cool
memories where your kids reallydo need you and you get to kind
of swoop in and be the helperand be the snuggler.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
How has the role of grandparenting changed today
versus previous generations thatyou'd like us, as grandparents,
to understand?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, this is the biggest shock for a lot of the
grandparents in my classes.
Is they really sort of think ofthe way grandparenting was for
them, right?
Maybe a relationship they havewith their grandparents or maybe
the way that they saw theirkids being grandparented by
their own parents and we havethis huge respect and admiration
and honor for older generationsand that is not present in our
(09:51):
culture.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Well, joshua Coleman I think it was either Joshua
Coleman or Larry Steinberg saidgone are the days of honor.
They father and mother.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yep, and now the respect is going toward the
grown kids and I would say it'snot equal respect, it is more
respect, more respect for thekids than for the older
generations.
And while I understand themindset that brings that, it's
not the mindset we grew up with,it's not the mindset we
experienced, it's not themindset we showed to our older
(10:20):
generation.
So we're kind of gettingscrewed, basically because we
had to give respect to the othergenerations and now we have to
give respect to our kids andwe're like respect.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Why has this happened ?
I think about holidays.
What has changed?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
I get asked this a lot and I'm not a sociologist,
I'm not a psychologist, but whatI can say is the awareness of
emotional intelligence has grownsignificantly in millennials
and Gen Z, and now that they'rehaving kids, they're looking at
what's really integral to thosekids and they're saying this is
the most important thing.
(10:57):
The way my parents feel is notimportant.
This is important, and the wayI'm going to do this well is by
having support, not by giving,not by thinking about others.
That's the only way that I'vemade sense of it, because it
seems so selfish and entitled tothink you're the only one that
matters in a relationship, right?
(11:17):
But I also think we grew ourkids in a fairly peaceful time.
We devoted our attention totheir self-esteem, we didn't
raise as gritty a generationbecause we didn't have gritty
circumstances.
I grew up on a farm and had todo chores and I was working
outside.
Right, my kids grew up in thesuburbs and emptied the
(11:38):
dishwasher and vacuum.
It's just a different.
They aren't as gritty.
I mean they're amazing, butthey're.
That's just not who they areand I'm to blame, right?
I wanted to solve all theirproblems.
I was that helicopter orlawnmower or whatever parent
that is now judged very heavilyfor all this love and attention.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
I'm dying to know what this next generation is
going to do.
But also, we were probably thefirst generation that had
therapists in our children'slives.
I'm shocked how many kids arein therapy starting in
elementary school.
So they're learning all of thisboundaries and self-awareness
and all that kind of stuff.
I didn't even know what aboundary was when I started this
podcast and they're really notthe way that they've been taught
(12:18):
, the way their exercise is.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Walls, gates, you know, unbreakable fence.
A boundary is not that.
A boundary is if you do this,then I will do this.
Right it's.
I'm trying to protect myself,but the way boundaries are used
a lot for grandparents is youwill not, you cannot do not, and
that's really trying to controlsomeone else's behavior, which
(12:43):
doesn't sit well with us asparents and grandparents.
Right, we don't want to be toldhow to do it.
We raised those kids, we earnedit and we shouldn't have to be
told you have to, you can't.
Except that we really want tohonor what their wishes are and
it really helps them to feellike they have control over one
(13:05):
aspect.
When newborns really don't giveyou much control over anything,
right, it's a this world shockof I'm.
In my career, I know how toorchestrate things, I can
delegate, I can make decisions.
Now, all of a sudden, you havethis helpless baby that you love
, with everything in you thatyou can't make do anything.
You can't make them sleep inthe bassinet.
You cannot make them feed theway you want.
(13:25):
You don't have the schedulecontrol.
Their world is turned upsidedown and they need us, but they
also don't have any capacity forlooking at what's important for
us, because they just they justneed our help and so we have to
kind of manage our own needsoutside of getting them to
recognize that, and that that'shard, that's really hard as a
(13:49):
grandparent to think.
I served and I laid down mylife at raising you and then you
were on your own.
Yay, I made you independent.
Good job.
And now you need me again.
Like when is the part where youjust give me the baby and let me
hold them, and then you tellthem that I'm a great
grandparent and I'm doing greatLike when is the part that we
get to rest and not work?
Because it kind of feels likewe're being pulled in both
(14:09):
directions.
Right, if we have livingparents, we're probably doing
some caregiving for the parents,and if we have grandkids, we
might be doing some caregivingfor our kids or our grandkids.
It just feels like when do weget the joy, like the ease and
the joy?
And so I see a lot ofgrandparents who are pretty
ticked off that this is theculture that we live in, and yet
(14:29):
the recognition for postpartummakes us refocus to say this
isn't a population that can seeus right now, the world that
they're in is very it's small,right.
It's their chest and their arms,it's their breastfeeding, their
breasts and their heart andthat's all the capacity they
have.
So we can want them to honor us, but they really can't,
(14:51):
especially in those first threemonths or so.
I find this to be a hugeconflict point that grandparents
want the respect.
Grown kids, new parents, wantrespect and basically demand it.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I think if we look back to how we felt when we
first had those babies, it isoverwhelming and you're stressed
out completely and once againyou want their relationship to
stay intact, but they still needsomeone to take their angst out
completely.
And once again, you want theirrelationship to stay intact, but
they still need someone to taketheir angst out on.
I think if we can be thatpillar of strength and realize
(15:25):
they're going to be short withus they're going to be not as
tolerant as they should be andjust get through it without
letting it affect ourself-esteem, we're probably
going to have a betterrelationship down the road.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
I think if we practice that as parents, where
we let them solve their ownproblems and we let them deal
with that frustration, tolerance, we're probably going to be
better at as grandparents.
So now I have to have them dothat in their adult years and
say, yeah, that's really hardand that's so hard, and then not
think I can fix it for youbecause you can't as a parent of
(15:59):
adult kids.
You have to let them solvetheir problems unless they're
coming to you to ask.
I think with postpartum inparticular, they don't know how
to ask, they don't know what youcan do and they don't really
want to act vulnerable becausethey want to prove that they can
do it.
They can do it, yeah, and theycan do it, but they're going to
do it better with support.
The research is very clear.
(16:20):
There's plenty of evidence.
They do better with support.
They're more successful, theyget better sleep, they like each
other more, they like theirbaby more, they're more
confident in their own instincts, they breastfeed more
successfully and they have lessdepression if there's support.
It's very clear and right nowthe pressure on new parents is
(16:41):
unlike anything we've everexperienced.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
There's so much more anxiety.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
There's so much more fear.
I mean, I would say new parentsare terrified.
I teach baby care andbreastfeeding classes in the
hospital and I ask them howthey're feeling about babies and
they're like we just don't knowif we can do it.
It's such a scary time and it'sso dangerous and we're just so,
so scared that we what if wedon't do it?
Well, and they have to go totherapy all the time?
And what if we screw it up?
What if we're toxic?
(17:06):
And they're worried aboutcarrying the load of feeding and
how they're going to deal withbroken sleep, and they're just
much more aware of the pressure.
And I think also none of usparented with the internet right
.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I was going to say do you think it's the internet?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I absolutely do, because now our psyche has to
deal with the ills of the worldinstead of the ills of the small
circle around us and the dramain our families or in our
communities.
We had to go to the library ifwe wanted to learn something.
Now it's shouting at you fromeverything You've got to protect
yourself.
Don't you know about thisdanger?
And oh, have you worried aboutthis?
And there's a health scare, andthat there's toxic.
This.
Parents have never had thismuch overload of information and
(17:46):
I honestly think it's way toomuch.
It's way too much for them toconnect with their baby and know
what's important.
Where we had a lot of downtimeto do that, we have a lot of
time to listen to our own heartand go.
You know, I think this kid needsthis.
With babies there's not a lotof commonality Like we all love
(18:06):
them, but the way we care forthem is completely different
depending on our culture and ourbeliefs.
There's so many discrepanciesand controversies in the baby
world, even as a professional.
Like people say, how do you doit?
It?
I'm like there's so many waysto do it right.
There's lots of ways.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
There's not one right way so I wish they could
understand that, because some ofthe things I've heard from my
friends that are grandparents isthe rules are so strict like
nope, my child can't have apacifier or there can't be any
screens for the first threeyears of their life or four
years of their life, and grandpaaccidentally shows the
(18:38):
four-year-old a play a footballplay on his cell phone.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And the parents go bananas.
It's really hard.
It is, and parents are gettinggood information to do these
things, but the flexibility theyhave when it doesn't go well is
really difficult and I have tothink that's coming from an area
of pressure, right.
Showing screens to babies haspretty bad research, according
to it.
So parents are really strictabout it and to feel like
there's no flexibility and thengrandpa breaks the rule they're
(19:11):
being so strict and discipliningthemselves so much and then
grandpa doesn't do it, like itfeels like cheating, like oh,
I've been, I don't.
It's a hard thing to do to notshow them screens, and but I can
do it and you can't.
I also think that's you got togive grandpa some grace, right?
That's what I feel like, Iguess.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I get torn between two working couples.
Many of my friends are doing atleast three times a week
childcare, some doing five daysa week, so they're exhausted and
then the kid gets down on thembecause their two-year-old had a
Tootsie Pop or something.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I think the most important thing when you're
dealing with a conflict is you?
have to validate their concern.
You have to say I know Iscrewed up.
I didn't mean that tootsie pop.
It was a moment of breakdown.
I'm sorry.
I knew it was equal quiet and Ineeded quiet in my brain and so
I just gave it to them.
And we have to be vulnerable tosay I value what you value.
(20:09):
I know you don't want yourchild to have sugar, you don't
want those artificial colors.
I see how important this is toyou.
I want to value that too.
I'm sorry I broke your trust.
It was a moment of weakness butI think it's okay to say I'm
probably going to have more ofthose Because I'm doing this
thing that you know it's hardphysically in your 60s and 70s,
(20:32):
especially to do what you can doin your 20s and 30s and 40s.
It's just easier to get up andrun around and get up and down
off the floor a million timesand have your sleep broken and
like you're a more flexibleperson.
But as we age, we become lessflexible, and so when we're
asked to do something thatcontinually demands from us,
(20:54):
there's going to be breakdown.
There just is.
And of course, parents aregoing to do it too.
But I think the first thing youhave to say is I trust what
you're asking me.
I know you're doing thisbecause you think this is the
best thing and I am not tryingto go against what you think.
I just like I forgot.
And then I showed the kid thevideo and then I realized, oh,
(21:16):
and you have to be accountableto be letting them down, and
that's really hard for us.
We don't want to be accountable.
It's super vulnerable and itfeels like they're judging us as
parents.
We laid our life down for ourkids.
We sacrificed a ton and we wantthem to see that, but what they
need in that moment, becausethey're so incensed, is for us
to see where they're whatthey're experiencing.
(21:37):
I see you being reallydisappointed.
I broke the screen rule.
I get it.
This is really important to youand I want to follow what's
important to you.
I'll try to do this better.
Blah, blah, blah.
Or can we make a plan wherethere's some compromise that
makes it a little bit easier forme?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
for whatever, because we.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
We are finite beings, and the older we get, the more
finite we are.
We have limitations, we havecapacities and we love to be
everything perfectly all thetime, just like new parents
would be.
But we're not going to do that.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
We're going to let them down.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
And then we have to be accountable that we let them
down, because if we're not, thatescalates quickly.
Kids need us to be accountableto them, which is also new.
That's totally new, because,let me tell you, I do not make
my parents accountable to meever.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I just don't get it.
I don't get it, so I brought uptwo things screens and sugar.
Are there other things you seethat we should be aware of in
modern parenting Germs?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Say that again Germs and vaccine.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Germs and vaccines.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
One of the biggest things right now is not kissing
the baby.
A lot of new parents do notwant anybody other than them
kissing the baby, and this isreally hard for grandparents,
because they're incrediblykissable and you may have waited
a really long time for thatgrandbaby and you just want to
do it so it.
So you have to kind of turn offyour instincts, and then
vaccines can be a really bigdividing factor.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I've had letters on that.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yes.
So grandparents are usuallyrequired to get a certain amount
of vaccines or have theirvaccines updated, and this is
really hard because it crossesthis line of self-health care,
having other people make thosedecisions for you, or basically
having restrictions if you don'thave the vaccines.
So that's a point of contentionI can see, and lately I mean I
(23:25):
hate to say it and we don't haveto get into it but politics
plays a role too.
I'm seeing a lot of parentshave different political views
than their parents.
The young parents to theirolder parents and sometimes they
don't want those negativeinfluences in their child's life
have different political viewsthan their parents, the young
parents to their older parents,and sometimes they don't want
those negative influences intheir child's life which seems
ridiculous to us because we'relike can we not all coexist,
(23:46):
having different opinions aboutthings?
This seems very reasonable in aworld we've always done, but the
more aware the millennials andGen Z are, the more they want an
environment that's conducive tosomething that's important to
them, which is harmony.
If you have people who aredisagreeing all the time at a
high level of conflict, theyoften don't want that around
them, and they often don't wantthat around their kids.
(24:08):
I'm seeing that as a dividingline too, and our kids cannot
expect us to change ourpolitical views because of
something they believe.
Our kids cannot expect us tochange our political views
because of something theybelieve, and yet we have to
somehow buffer that influence ifwe want to be around their kids
and we do.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
A lot of my episodes have talked about look in the
mirror.
We can have different views,but we can't be Archie Bunker.
Yeah, it's not healthy foranyone.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
And it really doesn't invite more relationship and
that's the way I think of itwith grandparents is it's really
the actions you take and thewords you choose either invite
more relationship or close downmore relationship, and so we
have to be motivated tocontinually open that
relationship if we want accessto grandbabies because they give
us so much joy and we want that.
Everyone has said that it'sunbelievable.
(24:59):
I thought, of course that'll begreat.
I didn't really understand whengrandparents would say oh, we
just get to love them, and givethem back.
Ha ha ha ha.
And I thought what they meantwas like we can spoil and we
don't have to follow the rules.
We can do whatever they want.
But what I realized, having myown grandchild, was it isn't so
much that I'm going to break anyrules, it's that I get a whole
(25:20):
human to delight in that I don'thave any responsibility for.
I don't have to lay awake atnight thinking did I do this
thing?
Is he going to?
be, okay as an adult, am I doingit all right?
I have kids who are verycapable.
They are parenting himbeautifully.
I get to borrow him, I get toenjoy him and then I get to give
him back and I don't have tothink about him.
I can go off to work and I cango to sleep and I don't have to.
(25:42):
I don't have to pay the pricethat I had to pay as a parent.
But I still get a lot of thejoy and that part I I don't feel
like people articulate it likethat Like all the joy without
the responsibility.
That's a dream, right?
If you had that as a parent, ifeverybody helped you take care
of your kid and everybody helpedyou with the finances and
everybody helped you with thehouse and the chores, having a
(26:05):
baby would be pretty delightful.
But of course that wasn't howit was for most of us.
Right, we had our kids, thereweren't a lot of people around,
we learned to figure out how todo it and we did it.
And now we get a littlecriticized for how we did it,
because our kids know I've gotevery you know social and
psychological approach in theworld because it's out there on
the internet and they can saywhy did you do it this way?
(26:26):
This wasn't, this isn't what Iwanted.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I wish you would have raised me like this?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, well, me too, but it wasn't available Right.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
So, listeners, we're going to take a quick break from
talking to Kimberly, because Irecently came across this very
cool product.
It's all about travel andengaging kids in travel.
I came across these guides.
They're called Curiosity TravelGuides.
It's spelled C-U-R-I-O city,but it's pronounced curiosity.
Very creative, huh?
I love that.
Now, what are they?
They're interactive travelguides designed for families
(27:01):
traveling with kids.
Right now, there are two citiesavailable London and Paris, and
they're making family tripstruly unforgettable.
And what I really like isthey're not techie.
I was so impressed that Iwanted to send the guide to
Ellen, my original co-host andpsychologist, to get her
perspective, both as agrandmother, but also as a
psychologist someone that workswith young people and I wanted
(27:23):
to get her idea of what shethought about them.
And then, for a specialsurprise, I reached out to the
creator of these, melissaManassi, and she's going to join
us too.
So stay tuned.
So, ellen, I sent them to you.
What are your thoughts on these?
Do so, stay tuned.
So, ellen, I sent them to you.
What?
Speaker 4 (27:37):
are your thoughts on these?
Do you like them as much as Ido?
I totally do.
I wanted to book a trip toParis as soon as I got the Paris
one.
There's so many things I likeabout it.
First of all are trulyinteractive and they're a
keepsake, so it's hard toexplain what they're like.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
You did a great job of it, but you can see inside,
find hidden things.
And what are the three mostinteresting things you saw today
?
What are weird things you sawtoday?
Even my son, who hated writing,would have hated it.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
And then I started thinking, like, not really, this
is the sort of thing we've gotto get out of, especially when
we're thinking about beinggrandparents that they react to
us very differently than they doto their parents.
(28:26):
They want to do things with us.
If we have a grandson who is 10and hates writing, but you like
it and he loves spending timewith you, which they do it's a
way for you to give them akeepsake that you do together.
I first picked it up andthought this is great for the
right kind of kid and then, inthinking about this as a larger
(28:48):
family community, it's just agreat way for a family to put
their memories on paper.
Not to mention, it's just agreat guide to a city, like,
honestly, I would use it myselfto sort of figure out, oh yeah,
what are the restaurants to goto or the more sites to go to,
to think about it as a way ofsparking communications and even
with a kid who might not be themost verbal 13-year-old, it's a
(29:12):
way to open up discussions andorganize the kinds of things
that you want to talk about andremember.
So I thought it was fabulous.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Well, I'm glad you did, and the real surprise is
we've got Melissa with us.
You've never met her, ellen,but I tracked her down and I
want to know, melissa, how didyou come across this idea, why
did you do it and what do youhope?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
others get from it.
Well, first off, denise, thankyou for that review and
excellent summary of it.
And Ellen, I'll take you toParis anytime you want.
Great, I'll bring the berets,no problem.
This book came out.
You know they always sayauthors write the book that they
wish that they had.
(29:54):
And, given my husband's job,when our kids were really little
, we had the opportunity totravel internationally quite a
bit.
But the source of this bookcame from as an academic, where
I studied all of the theoriesand concepts of international
and intercultural communicationcombined with being a mom to
three little kids.
(30:15):
Communication combined withbeing a mom to three little kids
when we were roaming thestreets of a great city in the
world, any great city.
You know, your motivation canonly take you so far.
I designed these books becauseI wanted something to inspire
questions between the parentsand the young adventurers, the
kids.
As I say, these guides don'ttell you where to go so much as
(30:41):
what to do when you get there.
The other thing that inspiredthis book is we would go on
these great trips.
I'd come home, we would put therefrigerator magnet on the
refrigerator and done, and thenI'm like, okay, so now, what do
we do?
What do we do with all thistravel?
The book was designed in reallythree main parts.
(31:03):
One, how do you prepare to goon a trip, but how do you get
your young person excited aboutgoing to one of these big cities
?
And by doing that you reallyneed to put them in the driver's
seat to both inspire and ignitecuriosity.
(31:23):
Then, with the book, it's thequestions to ask when you get to
the site.
So, using the Paris book as anexample, most of the kids have
seen a video, a TikTok, whateverof the Eiffel Tower.
One of my main purposes of thisbook was these kids have seen
all these things.
Rather than going up, taking apicture with your iPhone,
(31:47):
quickly posting it on Instagramand then waiting impatiently,
how many likes can all myfriends get back at home?
It's, don't take a picture ofthe Eiffel Tower.
Instead, turn around and take alook at the tourists.
The middle section meat andpotatoes of the book is learning
how to approach travel in a waythat leads with questions
(32:11):
rather than leads with theposting on Instagram.
The last 25% of the book is allabout okay, now what we're home
.
What do we do with this travel?
I offer questions, ideas,activities of ways of bringing
the travel back into yourhometown, because travel changes
(32:32):
us and it's supposed to.
Lastly, the kind of the piece deresistance, shall we say, and
the thing that I love about it,so going very old school with
the mementos that they would addinto the book.
So not only does the book helpyou prepare for travel, it gives
you ideas and support when you,as the parent, are exhausted.
(32:56):
It gives you ideas on bringingthe travel back, and then it
also creates a great keepsakethat the kids will refer to long
after the jet lag has subsided.
I love that.
So how can people get this?
You can order it most easilyoff of my website, which is
(33:16):
Curiosity Travel Guides and, asyou said, it's
curiocitytravelguidescom.
You can get it off of Amazon.
We're in about 15 differentbookstores and gift shops in the
Denver area.
You can get it at Beacon HillBookstore in Boston, but the
(33:36):
easiest way is just to click andget it off of the website.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Well, thank you Melissa.
Thank you, ellen.
It was great to get yourperspective.
Ellen, let's get back totoday's episode with Grandmother
Dula.
How old is your grandson?
He's a year and a half.
Oh, how fun.
You think they're doing a greatjob at parenting.
What does the grandparent dothat feels like the mom wants to
have a home birth, but maybe itreally goes against this mother
(34:00):
, thinking this baby's going todie, or they just want to have a
home birth, and maybe themother had a really complicated
birth and thinks you're crazy.
How do you continually biteyour tongue if you don't think
they're doing the parenting theright way?
Speaker 2 (34:15):
or not.
I don't have an easy answer,but I would say I would say two
things.
First, I would say deal withhow you feel about it.
Vent to someone not your kid,but vent to someone.
Get a therapist, get a friend,talk to someone who you can say
I think this is crazy and blah,blah, blah and blah.
Let it all out there and thenprocess really, what is it
(34:38):
that's holding you back, likewhat is it?
Is it the fear?
Is it worry?
Is it your own trauma?
Because a lot of us have traumathat's unresolved, because we
never even thought we could dealwith our trauma.
We thought we just had to gettougher and do it anyway right.
but now that we have avenues todeal with trauma, get a
therapist, do some meditation,do some prayer, figure out how
(34:58):
we really feel about this,because those the way we feel is
going to influence how muchimpact we have in their life,
how much relationship we get,and the more negative we feel,
the more there's going toinfluence how much impact we
have in their life, how muchrelationship we get, and the
more negative we feel, the morethere's going to be higher walls
and bigger boundaries.
So that'd be the first thing Iwould say is I think that's an
absolutely legitimate concern,but they should deal with that
away from the kids.
And second, I would say, onceyou've got kind of a handle, at
(35:20):
least you can recognize howyou're feeling.
Be curious about what your kidswant when.
Recognize how you're feeling,be curious about what your kids
want.
When you're curious, you showthat you trust them and you can
start to say, oh, I can see whyyou'd want that.
Oh, I can.
This seems you want a homebirth because it's a really
intimate experience and youdon't want to be in the hospital
with 16 to 20 strangers lookingat all your body and you don't
(35:43):
feel safe there.
Or maybe you lost someone andthe hospital represents death to
you, but home represents life.
I see that that makes sense.
You don't have to agree with it, but you can say I can see why
you'd want that.
And now you're putting yourtrust in your kids.
And the funniest thing I'vefound as a doula because I
haven't had tons.
My kids are only 20 and 25.
(36:04):
So I haven't had tons and tonsof adult children experience.
But as a doula, what I've seenis I agree with my clients
quickly.
Whatever they say.
I say, yeah, okay, let's dothat.
That sounds like a great planand sometimes in my heart I'm
like this is not a good plan.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
It's not going to work and you think it's going to
work.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
It's not going to work and you know what,
sometimes I'm wrong and exactlywhat they want to do works
perfectly, even though I knowthe evidence against it.
I've had thousands of babiesthat I've worked with that have
not done that.
I know it wouldn't work, butsometimes it does and it really
helps me to be more open and go.
You know, there's just a lot ofways to do this.
But even when it doesn't, evenwhen they basically make a
(36:43):
decision that I'm like okay,we'll try that inside my head,
but outwardly I'm like, okay,let's do it.
When I come the next visit I'llsay, yeah, we tried that.
It didn't work at all, butthey're willing to be vulnerable
because I was willing tobelieve in them.
I was like sure, let's give thisa try.
If they fail at it, I say, okay, well, what do we want to do
now?
What makes sense to you now?
(37:04):
And they said, well, we'regoing to do it this way, Great.
And then I get on board withthat and maybe that's a good
avenue, or maybe it's not.
But the quicker you agree, themore included you are.
And the more they're willing tosay gosh, we really we didn't
make a good call on that one.
Yeah, we all do that.
(37:25):
That's, that's parenting.
It's really hard and you'regoing to make some wrong calls,
but you know what Research showsyou only have to get it right
50% of the time with babies tobuild this like lasting,
beautiful bond with your child.
So it's okay, you got 50% toscrew up.
I just find that if you'rereally stuck, things are going
to break.
But if you stay flexible andlet your grown kids who've
probably really thought this outthey've done a lot of research
(37:48):
they have a lot behind thisdecision, even if it goes
against everything you've alwaysbelieved if it's important to
them, you kind of got to get onboard and trust them.
And the more you trust them,the more involved they're going
to have you.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Let's talk about these early weeks.
You come to visit maybe thesecond or third week and they're
really struggling with, say,breastfeeding or sleep.
I'm a little worried about thispersonally.
They're struggling withbreastfeeding.
How to be supportive and notwant to say, well, take the baby
and do this.
Are there approaches that youuse that we should learn to help
(38:21):
them sort of navigate this?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
The biggest difference in breastfeeding I
think has happened.
Uh, happened in 1985 because wehad professional lactation
consultants that were boardcertified, trained and certified
in 1985.
And now every hospital has them.
The breastfeeding rates in 85were, I don't know, 25 or 30%
and they're 83% now.
So the vast majority ofeveryone is breastfeeding, which
(38:47):
means we're going to have moreproblems, more complications.
There's the people who werebreastfeeding in the seventies,
eighties, nineties were peoplewho were doing it because it was
manageable.
It was easy enough to do.
Maybe not easy, but manageable.
Right, it resolved itself.
The people who arebreastfeeding now is almost
everyone.
So there's all kinds offamilies that have.
(39:07):
They been.
In the seventies, eighties,they would just stop
breastfeeding in formula fitbecause that was so acceptable.
Then the vast majority ofpeople formula fit.
Now the vast majority of peoplebreastfeed.
If you have a problem and youcan't easily overcome it, you
have tons of avenues to fix it,where I think the grandparents
come in and say well, I did this, try this.
What they're suggesting was aneasy enough solution that made
(39:30):
it work for them, but thesolution for their kids might be
way more complicated.
And then I would just say bringin a professional and get on
board with thatperson and what the parents want
to do with a professional Cause.
The parents don't always lovewhat the professionals say.
I'm a lactation consultant tooand sometimes they're like, eh,
we don't really like this plan.
I'm like, all right, let's,what can you do?
Let's change the plan.
(39:51):
But I would say withgrandparents, the best thing to
do would be to listen to theexperts and read their kids
really well, like if the expertssay, here's this plan, you got
to pump 12 times a day and yougot to store your milk and
here's what you got to do andthe grandparents are like
there's no way they're going todo that.
And then the kids come and gothis is overwhelming.
Say, okay, we got this plan.
(40:11):
What?
What do you like about it?
What do you not like about it?
Because grandparents whobreastfed they understand the
concept right.
They know the more youbreastfeed, the more milk you
make.
Like they got the basics down.
It's not like you have to teachthem, but the nuance of like
pump flanges are all.
There's like 18 pump flangesizes now.
There's 30 different pumpcompanies.
(40:31):
They all make five to 10different pumps.
So the amount of overload toget.
Oh, and there's three differentshapes of pump flanges too.
So how could you possibly knowthat all of these things have
happened in the last 30 years?
And even the pump flange sizesonly got research last December,
last December 2024.
Things are changing so quicklyit's impossible for grandparents
(40:53):
to be up to date enough to sayoh, I read this thing about
tongue tie and I hear there'sexercises you can do to reduce
tension.
Yeah, lactation consultantsknow that.
But an average grandparent whowas an accountant or a marketing
manager doesn't know anythingabout that and shouldn't be
expected to.
So when they say just do thisor just do this, it sounds like
(41:14):
a simplification of a problemthat like they don't believe
their child is working hardenough.
Parents do not like thatjudgment.
They feel that's a pushyapproach, even though all the
grandparent is trying to do issay well, I got through it.
I believe you can too.
So that's what I would say.
Rather than trying to fix it, Iwould say I know you to be a
(41:35):
resilient, determined, creativeproblem solver.
I know you're going to getthrough this and I'm going to be
here to help you whatever youneed.
I believe in you.
Let's go see that lactationconsultant and see what kind of
plan we can get rather than wellI know, with me.
I just did.
That feels so pushy, even thoughI know it is not meant that way
(41:56):
, but that's how it's received.
I found that to be such aroadblock for grandparents
because they're like I know Icould get her to do it if she
just would, but as a lactationconsultant, I can tell you if
that approach would work.
She probably already tried itand it didn't work.
And now she's like I need ahigher level of problem solving
and it's available so she canget it.
Plus, by the time someone seesa lactation consultant, they've
(42:18):
probably read 25 articles online.
They've watched hundreds ofreels on TikTok or Instagram.
We have tons of overload.
Maybe it's this, maybe it'sthis, maybe it's this.
And how can their brain whenyou're postpartum, sort through
all that.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
It's so overwhelming.
Oh gosh, I that's you know, Inever thought of all that
information coming at them.
That sounds like hell to me.
To be honest with you, it's notfun, I will say.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
a lot of parents are not choosing to have kids
because of all this pressure.
So our birth rate's actuallygoing down.
So part of being a grandparent,I think, is you need to
celebrate the fact that yourlegacy is going on, because
there's lots of generations thattheir legacy is not going on
and where you might be unhappyabout the way it's being done.
You kind of got to be gratefulthat it's being done because you
(43:05):
could be in that situationwhere you have no grandkids and
that's just the rest of yourlife and you know what?
That's a huge chunk of joy thatyou're missing out on.
That you're going to have tocarve out some other way,
because if you don't getgrandkids, I mean that's the
biggest sorts of joy people sayin retirement, bigger than
anything.
I just mean if you look atgrandparents and they chart to
tell you what's most joyful,they will tell you the grandkids
(43:27):
are right up there.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
It'd be really hard, as a mother who breastfed, to
have your daughter say I'm notbreastfeeding.
Yeah, it would be, and how doyou deal with that?
Speaker 2 (43:40):
You vent to the people who can hear you, because
that's not your daughter.
You vent to people who can say,ouch, that looks like a slap in
your face.
After all the work you did tobreastfeed, why is your daughter
doing this?
It sounds hurtful and letpeople grieve over what they're
missing, because if you wereexpecting to pass that on and
(44:02):
you wanted your grandchildbreastfed and they choose not to
or can't't, whatever, there'sgoing to be grief, and grief is
worthy of space and processing.
But trying to change that notgoing to happen.
Nothing you do will change theoutcome of what the decision
that the parents will make andif you try to change it will
(44:28):
make.
And if you try to change it,estrangement is a possibility.
So while I think that's anabsolutely valid concern for a
grandparent, there's no avenuethat's safe to say it to your
grown kids.
Maybe later, at some point,when that child is healthy and
grown, they can say, oh, Iwanted that baby breastfed so
badly, but look how amazing youdid with formula, look at what a
great kid they turned out.
I trust you so much.
(44:49):
And you might not be able tosay it in the moment, but I
would challenge grandparents toget to the point where they can
say that, because it's reallygoing to mean a lot to those
parents because everyone istelling them to breastfeed.
Everyone, every research study,every doctor, every
obstetrician, every pediatricianis going to tell them to
breastfeed.
And if they choose not to,they've chosen it for a reason,
(45:10):
and it might not seem like agood reason, but it is to them
and I can understand the sadnessthat might come.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
When they wanted to and can't, then that's an
emotional.
You have to be supportive.
If they just make a hard, fastchoice, too much trouble for me.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I'm not doing it.
I'd have to really work onbiting my tongue, I would say.
As a lactation consultant, Isee people where they beat their
head against the wall to try tobreastfeed and try and try and
try and try and end up withdepression and anxiety and
taking meds.
Really, the outcome would havebeen much better had they chosen
formula from the beginning,because they could have started
building their own parentinginstincts and just believing in
themselves.
People say oh, you're notsupposed to be so supportive of
(45:49):
formula.
You know, what I am.
Supportive of parents first,that's exactly right.
Right, lactation is a skill Ihave, but my goal is for parents
to trust themselves.
You need that when you'reraising kids.
You've got to be able to trustyour own instincts and right now
our world is ripping instinctsaway by burdening parents with
tons of anxiety and pressure.
(46:10):
And I think we have to get tothe core of saying this baby
came to me Like.
I get to make the choices aboutit and people trust me and I'm
going to do a good job and I'mthe right parent for this baby.
And that's more important to methan if they formula, feed or
schedule their babies or yeah, alot of people are scheduling
C-sections and things like that.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Yep, yep, and even scheduling their like behavior.
They'll have a whole schedulethat they do with their baby and
I think, okay, that's not veryorganic in terms of seeing what
the baby is, but you know what,it works really well for some
babies.
Okay, you know, there's a,there's a way to be able to see
it without um criticizing.
No, I get that, but I I havehad the joy of getting to see
(46:52):
that with thousands andthousands of parents.
Even when they do it the way Iwould not have chosen to do it,
I see the outcome.
So I have this like breakingoff of my hard, hard and fast
things because of all theseexperiences and grandparents
often haven't had that.
You know that's a benefit thatI've seen families be a million
different ways and have it bebeautiful and loving,
(47:13):
interesting.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
So one of the hardest things is when you do live far
away, and I hear a lot ofdiffering things.
A lot of people say rent anAirbnb, have your own space,
don't be on top of them.
Not everyone can afford this.
You're flying to thedestination, you want to stay a
couple of weeks, or maybe theyeven want you to help with
childcare a month or whatever itis, so that the child doesn't
(47:34):
have to go to childcare so early.
How do you balance not being intheir way if you have to stay
with them?
Speaker 2 (47:41):
The best approach I've seen is I call it on hours
and off hours.
So basically you think about itlike a job, right?
You have to show up to work,being rested, being nourished,
hydrated, take care of your ownneeds You're on and then, when
you're off, you get yourdowntime.
You get to exercise, you get toeat what you want or cook what
(48:01):
you want, or read or havedowntime.
When you're on, you can't thinkabout all your needs.
You have to be on, but whenyou're off, you really do need
to take care of everything.
And I think sometimes the onhours for grandparents are about
three to four hours at a time,and not eight hours or 12 hours
or 14 hours.
And we have to look at our bodycapabilities.
(48:23):
If what we need is an hour inthe morning to get up and read
the news and to have coffee andto go to the bathroom and take a
shower and whatever like, weneed an hour of downtime.
Well, infants do not allow yousuch luxuries.
We've all done that and part ofwhat we like about our life is
we've curated it the way thatworks for us.
We eat the way that works thebest.
(48:44):
We exercise the way that worksfor us.
We eat the way that works thebest, we exercise the way that
works the best.
So when you shut all that offand just focus on an infant, you
start falling apart, right?
You start not getting your ownneeds met, you don't have any
downtime, you're not sleepingenough, you're not eating in the
right way, you're notexercising.
All of a sudden, you're justnot so happy.
Your body's not working thatwell.
So I really say think of itlike a job, do everything you
(49:07):
need to do on your off hours andcarve out the things that you
need.
So if you're in another citybut you do yoga twice a week, go
find the yoga classes and dothem twice a week.
If you're going to be there fora couple of weeks because you
can live without yoga for a week, but by week three you're
ticked off and you have nowherefor that angst to go.
Right, it's really about, Ithink, carving out the time and
(49:32):
being really selfless whenyou're on, but being really
selfish when you're off, becauseotherwise we're not strong to
be there for our kids.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
If you have to stay with them, would you say that
for the hours you're on, you'rearound and about because you're
working with the baby, but whenyou're off you're either out or
in your room and you give themthe space that they need?
New parents need a lot of spaceto.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
It's just a slow pace and I think for grandmas
especially, we're like we'redoing stuff, like we're cleaning
and organizing and shopping andcooking and prepping, and
that's hard work for us, but thethe space of a baby is slow.
It's recognize the moments andbe in the moment, and so the
(50:11):
work we do around parents can bereally busy, but when we're in
that moment with the baby, weneed to be slow, we need to be
able to recognize, and I don'tthink we can do that if we're
busy thinking about all thestuff we have to do.
I think there's some on stuffthat we do with practicalities
and then there's some on timewhere we just look at our kid
and say you're amazing, you'reso much better of a parent than
(50:35):
I ever could have been or evencould have dreamt that you are.
We have to take the time toslow down enough to recognize
what they're doing and whatthey're doing might just be
their baby looked at them andwe're like I remember you
looking at me.
Like that, that's so beautiful,like you have to be able to take
that space and do it.
And if you're busy, busy, busy,busy, busy, you can't right.
(50:57):
They might say, oh, mom was sohelpful, she did all these
things.
But what they may really wantis just for you to be in that
moment to say you're incredible,you're an incredible mother,
and I see what you do for yourchild, I see the hours of
breastfeeding that you'reworking through and I know
you're going to be successfulbecause I trust you.
There's that.
But if you don't take care ofyourself during your on off time
(51:19):
, you can't be in that moment.
Like you just don't have themental and emotional energy to
recognize that.
And your kids need that.
I think they need that morethan any of the practical stuff,
cause you can hire out a lot ofpractical stuff.
You can have meals delivered.
You can have um someone comeand clean the house, right.
We can have someone come andtake the dogs for a walk and get
groceries.
Those are all that stuff can bedone.
(51:41):
But no one else is the voice ofthe emotional support that the
grandparents.
That's beautiful and it meansthe most.
It means way more than even forme as a professional.
I say those things to moms andthey just tear up and it matters
to them.
But when their own parents saysit, they're just like they.
(52:01):
They recognize, they see me,they love me, they trust me.
That's as good as you canexpect as a parent right.
To have someone else reallybelieve in you, that's an
incredible feeling.
And to have your own parents,who've seen you through some of
your awkward stages right, whohave known you aren't always
successful, to believe thatyou'll be successful and that
you are successful, I thinkthat's one of the deepest needs
(52:23):
of our heart.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
That's really beautiful.
I would love to end with thatbecause it's so beautiful, but I
have to ask you for twotakeaways.
But I really love that and forme, especially, who's always on
and moving fast, that's gonna bemy huge takeaway.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yeah, you're not the only one.
When I speak to grandparents,many of them think about all the
things they can do, butrecognizing who their kids are
is far more important.
And that's actually one of mytakeaways.
Okay, good, go for it.
My first takeaway is to believein your kids, is to know that
you've done all the work thatyou could do to make them good
(52:59):
parents and trust theirinstincts with their kids and
let them borrow your beliefduring a time that's high
pressure, low sleep, not a lotof nurturing, and yet they're
giving a lot of nurturing away.
Think of them in a deficit thatyou have to pour into just for
that early postpartum phase, notforever, but just early on,
because it's really hard andthey don't trust themselves and
(53:22):
nothing we have built in ourculture allows them to trust
their instincts.
If they can borrow yourconfidence just for a little
while until they feel itthemselves, they're going to
feel it faster and earlier andhave more trust in themselves.
So believe and and don't justsay you're a great mom or you're
a great dad, but say I see theway you care for your kid, I see
(53:43):
you getting up at 3am and 4amand 5am, what an investment you
are making in nurturing thisbaby and it's really going to
pay off and I I love what you'redoing with your kids, or I love
this about you be specific.
And then number two is makesure that you're getting your
own needs met too, as agrandparent, because I think we
(54:04):
haven't had a culture where wecan go to therapy, where we can
have some reflection on howwe're feeling and some
recognition of our own grief andour own pain, sort of
postpartum abandonment.
You know, we didn't have a lotof postpartum care.
It hasn't been present inseveral generations, and so to
pour into a next generationfeels like, and so to pour into
a next generation feels like,well, nobody did this for me and
(54:26):
I was okay, except there's somehurt there that nobody did it
for you and had you been able tochange it, you would have,
because you knew you needed help, like postpartum needs help,
new babies need help.
This is a cultural shift thatwe're doing it independently.
So I think if you can go getyour own needs met and have
someone say that grief is worthyof being processed, let's
(54:49):
process how that feels, so thatyou can get to a place where
you're like okay, now I can, Ican handle what they're throwing
at me, because, even though Idon't necessarily believe in it
or I didn't practice it that way, it matters to them and they
matter to me, but you can't getto that emotional space until
(55:09):
you've all the stuff that'sinside, and that isn't something
we're super practiced at.
So that's my second takeaway.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
So I would love you to tell people how they can get
in touch with you.
Why don't you do that?
Sell yourself a little bit atthe end.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
Fair enough.
So I have several hats that Iwear, but the primary one right
now is grandparentdoulacom, sothey can go to the site.
They can read all about theclass that I have offered.
I have a lot more atabcdoulacom because I'm still
running my doula agency and wehave a lot of classes for
parents and grandparents theretoo, but the main goal is there
(55:46):
at grandparentdoulacom and thenon Instagram I'm at
thegrandparentdoula and we havea lot of fun there because I get
lots of feedback fromgrandparents.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
Oh, I bet that's a great one to follow and I will
put that both your website andthe Instagram in my episode
notes and also in my socialmedia when the episode drops.
So, kimberly, thank you so much.
I'm on my way.
I'm going to be a bettergrandparent.
Mostly I have to get rid ofeverything and talk to other
people, but thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
Okay, thanks.
(56:20):
Well, I hope all of you lovethat as much as I did.
Most of you who've beenlistening know I'm a high energy
person, so I'm going to have toreally tone myself down.
It's going to be a big journeyfor me, but this really helped.
So, as you know again, we'renot dropping episodes as
regularly as we have before, butthere's lots of fun things
(56:41):
coming up, and I have to thankConnie Gorn Fisher again, our
audio production engineer, andwrite to us
biteyourtonguepodcast atgmailcom, share your comments
and ideas and certainly if youhave people you think would be
really great for us to interview.
We're still looking for support.
I know we're not doing it asoften, but we're still paying
(57:01):
for our platforms.
Buy us a virtual cup of coffee,biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
It's just $5.
Make a small donation.
Thank you all once again forlistening and remember,
sometimes you just have to biteyour tongue.
Thank you.
Welcome to Bite your Tongue, the podcast, and happy
February, happy Valentine's Dayand it's my birthday month, so
kind of exciting for me.
I'm Denise, and while we maynot be releasing episodes as
frequently these days, we'restill here to bring you valuable
insights and conversations withexperts to help you navigate
and strengthen yourrelationships with your adult
(00:25):
children.
That's what Bite your Tongue isall about.
Today's topic is especiallyclose to my heart.
If you caught our last episodein season four, you've heard the
exciting news I'm going to be agrandma.
Honestly, guys, I'm stillprocessing it because I really
never thought it would happen.
(00:45):
And here we are Now.
I want to make sure I get offon the right foot and hopefully
it's helpful to all of you too.
So today we're going to talk allabout grandparenting.
I'm thrilled to have KimberlyBeppler with us.
Kimberly is known as thegrandparent doula.
Yes, you heard that right.
Kimberly is known as thegrandparent doula.
(01:05):
Yes, you heard that rightgrandparent doula.
Her mission is to helpgrandparents become the loving,
supportive and a non-intrusivepresence in their
grandchildren's lives and, ofcourse, their adult children.
So, without further ado, let'sdive in.
Kimberly, welcome to the show.
We're so excited to have youhere Now.
You're the only one I couldfind that really deals with
(01:27):
grandparents, so why did youdecide to become a grandparent?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
doula hearing the parent perspective for 25 years.
And all of a sudden I was justliterally sitting at my computer
reading about postpartum and Ithought I have spent the
majority of my career trying tomake a dent in what postpartum
(01:54):
looks like for families.
I just had sort of an epiphanymoment to say how am I going to
actually change postpartum like,really make a revolution in
postpartum?
And I thought we have to getthe grandparents involved.
They're the only ones with theresources, the love, the
devotion that would dive in anddo postpartum and if you look at
(02:15):
it from historical perspective,that's what grandparents have
always done.
But we're kind of beingexcluded right now, which has
long lasting repercussions.
And so I just thought I need tochange the perspective of
grandparents to provide thepostpartum care that sets
families off and reducesdepression and increases parent
confidence, increases bonding,increases breastfeeding rates
(02:38):
just like I've been doing fordoulas but put it in the hands
of these wise lovers of theirchildren, devoted parents who
want to make a difference butdon't necessarily know how,
because they were never taughtto do that.
I mean, postpartum care hasn'tbeen present in our culture for
four or five generations atleast.
But they're in collectivecultures but it's not in our
(02:59):
individualistic culture, and Ithought this is what I got to do
.
I got to train the grandparentsand then I thought this is what
I got to do.
I got to train the grandparentsand then I thought how am I
going to do that?
Are they going to want tolisten to me?
I don't know.
And then I read Joshua Coleman'sbook about estrangement and it
broke my heart to read it and Iyet I thought this is the time.
I've had this goal to bringparents and grandparents
(03:20):
together for years, but I was sobusy working as a doula,
building up my doula agency,training new doulas I didn't
really have the time and I justkind of had a step back moment
and thought, if I'm going tohelp people avoid estrangement
or heal estrangement, I have tostart focusing on the people
that have the time, theinvestment, the energy and who
(03:43):
desire this so much and who arehaving their hearts broken.
Because rarely are you hearingfrom grown kids and new parents
that their hearts are broken,that they're estranged.
They're usually the ones doingthe estranging.
The grandparents are theheartbroken ones.
I thought this is thepopulation I need to serve.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
So let me ask you a quick, broad question.
You know I'm going to be agrandmother in April.
My daughter and her husbandlive quite a distance.
If you were going to give meone piece of advice as I begin
this journey, what would you say?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I would say make very specific offerings about what
you can do and then let yourgrown kids pick from those
offerings.
We call it a menu.
So basically, in my class, Iteach the grandparents make a
menu.
Here's all the things you cando.
Figure out what you want to do,offer it to your kids and let
them choose from what you wantto do, versus doing all the
(04:37):
things that they might expectyou to do or expecting them to
want the things that you offerthem.
Be very clear about what youcould do and what you want to do
and then, when they give youfeedback, be as positive as
possible and do the things thatmatter to them and let the other
things go, even though youmight have really wanted to do
it what sort of thing might agrandmother really want to do
(04:59):
that the child might really not.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Maybe the child only wants help with cooking and
cleaning and not touching thebaby at all.
Is that the kind of thingyou're thinking about?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Very much, so I have a lot of grandparents who want
to be in the delivery room.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
They want to be there the first week.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
They really, really want to help in a way that they
can kiss the baby and connectwith the baby, hold the baby.
And parents are not looking fora lot of that support right now
.
They don't want their parentsin the delivery room, they don't
want them even there in thefirst week.
They want to learn how tomanage their baby without their
parents so they can feel likethey're doing it, especially
that first baby.
I find they're a little moreamenable with the second and the
(05:34):
third.
The first one they really wantto prove to themselves they can
do it.
I find a lot of grandparentsjust waiting in the wings, like
waiting for news and waiting forpictures and waiting to be
invited, and they're they're notlikely to be invited into those
spaces.
So to say, here's all thethings I'd love to do in the
form of a menu.
Right, we never ordereverything on the menu.
(05:56):
We pick the things that we want.
So if we say here's some,here's some menu items I can do,
and then your kids pick andthen you just stick to the
things they want, you might bereally sad about the things that
they don't want, but you don'treally get to choose it, so you
have to cope with it in everyway that you can.
I think being prepared inadvance gives you time to let go
(06:16):
of those things to say likethey don't want me in the
delivery room.
I really had it in my head thatI was going to be there and this
where I wanted to be, and youjust have a chance to let go of
that and say this isn't wherethey want me, I'm not going to.
I'm not going to have thismoment.
I'm going to have to have othermoments that matter to me.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I'm just going to tell you what happened in my
situation.
I really respected exactly whatyou said.
My daughter and her husbandsaid they really want some time
at the beginning and she was duelate April.
She said I the beginning andshe was due late April.
She said I'd love you to come.
A few weeks later I madeflights to go in May.
Then a couple of weeks ago shesaid you know what, mom, I think
I really want you there beforethe baby's born Now, not to go
(06:54):
to the delivery room, not tohelp.
But she said you're the onlyperson I can trust to take care
of the dog, take care of thehouse.
When we leave, they don't haveany family there.
So I'm starting to feel likeI'm so glad to be asked.
But then I realized I said so.
Then when you come home fromthe hospital, you want me to
(07:14):
leave.
And she was sort of silent.
But is that common?
I mean, does that feel overlydemanding to you?
Nope, that's very very common.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Absolutely Especially with a first time couple,
especially when they're havingbabies a little bit later, like
in their 30s.
They have a very establishedlife.
They're not leaning on theirparents for very many things at
that point.
They often have pets that theylove, like their children, and
so for you to care for theirpets feels like you're loving
the grandbabies, because theydon't have babies yet and they
(07:43):
don't really know the differencebetween a pet and a baby.
That is their baby and theirreal baby arrives and they're
like oh wow, you're a pet.
Take some realization of thelove that you have for a human.
That really is meaningful tothem.
That's like you coming andcaretaking for their older kids
and it brings their anxiety down.
Because one of the biggestthings I hear from postpartum
parents I'm a bad dog mom, I'm abad cat mom, I'm not loving my
(08:06):
pets Because they've got whatfive, ten years invested in
those pets, Like they've been anoutpouring of their love, and
now they give all that to theirbaby and they're trying to hold
it together.
They feel like you're lovingthem that way.
So, yeah, I don't think that'stoo demanding.
I think that's too demanding.
I think that's pretty common,Pretty common and I would say
(08:26):
that speaks to their value,right?
Their value is make sure myhome is okay and not all food in
my refrigerator is rotting ifwe're in the hospital for three
days, Right, right.
But I would also say from agrandparent perspective, putting
you in the vicinity of whereyour kids are when their babies
first come home means you haveumpteen more opportunities to
support them when they decidethat they need it.
(08:48):
If you are far away and can't,they're not going to have you
fly in, but if you're in afriends and things are falling
apart, bingo, you are in.
Right.
They're going to be like mom,come back, we need you.
And now you have theopportunity to be needed, maybe
in a way that you want to be.
And I think if you're creatingthat distance, you wouldn't be
(09:09):
utilized and then you might missout on some really cool
memories where your kids reallydo need you and you get to kind
of swoop in and be the helperand be the snuggler.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
How has the role of grandparenting changed today
versus previous generations thatyou'd like us, as grandparents,
to understand?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, this is the biggest shock for a lot of the
grandparents in my classes.
Is they really sort of think ofthe way grandparenting was for
them, right?
Maybe a relationship they havewith their grandparents or maybe
the way that they saw theirkids being grandparented by
their own parents and we havethis huge respect and admiration
and honor for older generationsand that is not present in our
(09:51):
culture.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Well, joshua Coleman I think it was either Joshua
Coleman or Larry Steinberg saidgone are the days of honor.
They father and mother.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yep, and now the respect is going toward the
grown kids and I would say it'snot equal respect, it is more
respect, more respect for thekids than for the older
generations.
And while I understand themindset that brings that, it's
not the mindset we grew up with,it's not the mindset we
experienced, it's not themindset we showed to our older
(10:20):
generation.
So we're kind of gettingscrewed, basically because we
had to give respect to the othergenerations and now we have to
give respect to our kids andwe're like respect.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Why has this happened ?
I think about holidays.
What has changed?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
I get asked this a lot and I'm not a sociologist,
I'm not a psychologist, but whatI can say is the awareness of
emotional intelligence has grownsignificantly in millennials
and Gen Z, and now that they'rehaving kids, they're looking at
what's really integral to thosekids and they're saying this is
the most important thing.
(10:57):
The way my parents feel is notimportant.
This is important, and the wayI'm going to do this well is by
having support, not by giving,not by thinking about others.
That's the only way that I'vemade sense of it, because it
seems so selfish and entitled tothink you're the only one that
matters in a relationship, right?
(11:17):
But I also think we grew ourkids in a fairly peaceful time.
We devoted our attention totheir self-esteem, we didn't
raise as gritty a generationbecause we didn't have gritty
circumstances.
I grew up on a farm and had todo chores and I was working
outside.
Right, my kids grew up in thesuburbs and emptied the
(11:38):
dishwasher and vacuum.
It's just a different.
They aren't as gritty.
I mean they're amazing, butthey're.
That's just not who they areand I'm to blame, right?
I wanted to solve all theirproblems.
I was that helicopter orlawnmower or whatever parent
that is now judged very heavilyfor all this love and attention.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
I'm dying to know what this next generation is
going to do.
But also, we were probably thefirst generation that had
therapists in our children'slives.
I'm shocked how many kids arein therapy starting in
elementary school.
So they're learning all of thisboundaries and self-awareness
and all that kind of stuff.
I didn't even know what aboundary was when I started this
podcast and they're really notthe way that they've been taught
(12:18):
, the way their exercise is.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Walls, gates, you know, unbreakable fence.
A boundary is not that.
A boundary is if you do this,then I will do this.
Right it's.
I'm trying to protect myself,but the way boundaries are used
a lot for grandparents is youwill not, you cannot do not, and
that's really trying to controlsomeone else's behavior, which
(12:43):
doesn't sit well with us asparents and grandparents.
Right, we don't want to be toldhow to do it.
We raised those kids, we earnedit and we shouldn't have to be
told you have to, you can't.
Except that we really want tohonor what their wishes are and
it really helps them to feellike they have control over one
(13:05):
aspect.
When newborns really don't giveyou much control over anything,
right, it's a this world shockof I'm.
In my career, I know how toorchestrate things, I can
delegate, I can make decisions.
Now, all of a sudden, you havethis helpless baby that you love
, with everything in you thatyou can't make do anything.
You can't make them sleep inthe bassinet.
You cannot make them feed theway you want.
(13:25):
You don't have the schedulecontrol.
Their world is turned upsidedown and they need us, but they
also don't have any capacity forlooking at what's important for
us, because they just they justneed our help and so we have to
kind of manage our own needsoutside of getting them to
recognize that, and that that'shard, that's really hard as a
(13:49):
grandparent to think.
I served and I laid down mylife at raising you and then you
were on your own.
Yay, I made you independent.
Good job.
And now you need me again.
Like when is the part where youjust give me the baby and let me
hold them, and then you tellthem that I'm a great
grandparent and I'm doing greatLike when is the part that we
get to rest and not work?
Because it kind of feels likewe're being pulled in both
(14:09):
directions.
Right, if we have livingparents, we're probably doing
some caregiving for the parents,and if we have grandkids, we
might be doing some caregivingfor our kids or our grandkids.
It just feels like when do weget the joy, like the ease and
the joy?
And so I see a lot ofgrandparents who are pretty
ticked off that this is theculture that we live in, and yet
(14:29):
the recognition for postpartummakes us refocus to say this
isn't a population that can seeus right now, the world that
they're in is very it's small,right.
It's their chest and their arms,it's their breastfeeding, their
breasts and their heart andthat's all the capacity they
have.
So we can want them to honor us, but they really can't,
(14:51):
especially in those first threemonths or so.
I find this to be a hugeconflict point that grandparents
want the respect.
Grown kids, new parents, wantrespect and basically demand it.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I think if we look back to how we felt when we
first had those babies, it isoverwhelming and you're stressed
out completely and once againyou want their relationship to
stay intact, but they still needsomeone to take their angst out
completely.
And once again, you want theirrelationship to stay intact, but
they still need someone to taketheir angst out on.
I think if we can be thatpillar of strength and realize
(15:25):
they're going to be short withus they're going to be not as
tolerant as they should be andjust get through it without
letting it affect ourself-esteem, we're probably
going to have a betterrelationship down the road.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
I think if we practice that as parents, where
we let them solve their ownproblems and we let them deal
with that frustration, tolerance, we're probably going to be
better at as grandparents.
So now I have to have them dothat in their adult years and
say, yeah, that's really hardand that's so hard, and then not
think I can fix it for youbecause you can't as a parent of
(15:59):
adult kids.
You have to let them solvetheir problems unless they're
coming to you to ask.
I think with postpartum inparticular, they don't know how
to ask, they don't know what youcan do and they don't really
want to act vulnerable becausethey want to prove that they can
do it.
They can do it, yeah, and theycan do it, but they're going to
do it better with support.
The research is very clear.
(16:20):
There's plenty of evidence.
They do better with support.
They're more successful, theyget better sleep, they like each
other more, they like theirbaby more, they're more
confident in their own instincts, they breastfeed more
successfully and they have lessdepression if there's support.
It's very clear and right nowthe pressure on new parents is
(16:41):
unlike anything we've everexperienced.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
There's so much more anxiety.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
There's so much more fear.
I mean, I would say new parentsare terrified.
I teach baby care andbreastfeeding classes in the
hospital and I ask them howthey're feeling about babies and
they're like we just don't knowif we can do it.
It's such a scary time and it'sso dangerous and we're just so,
so scared that we what if wedon't do it?
Well, and they have to go totherapy all the time?
And what if we screw it up?
What if we're toxic?
(17:06):
And they're worried aboutcarrying the load of feeding and
how they're going to deal withbroken sleep, and they're just
much more aware of the pressure.
And I think also none of usparented with the internet right
.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I was going to say do you think it's the internet?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I absolutely do, because now our psyche has to
deal with the ills of the worldinstead of the ills of the small
circle around us and the dramain our families or in our
communities.
We had to go to the library ifwe wanted to learn something.
Now it's shouting at you fromeverything You've got to protect
yourself.
Don't you know about thisdanger?
And oh, have you worried aboutthis?
And there's a health scare, andthat there's toxic.
This.
Parents have never had thismuch overload of information and
(17:46):
I honestly think it's way toomuch.
It's way too much for them toconnect with their baby and know
what's important.
Where we had a lot of downtimeto do that, we have a lot of
time to listen to our own heartand go.
You know, I think this kid needsthis.
With babies there's not a lotof commonality Like we all love
(18:06):
them, but the way we care forthem is completely different
depending on our culture and ourbeliefs.
There's so many discrepanciesand controversies in the baby
world, even as a professional.
Like people say, how do you doit?
It?
I'm like there's so many waysto do it right.
There's lots of ways.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
There's not one right way so I wish they could
understand that, because some ofthe things I've heard from my
friends that are grandparents isthe rules are so strict like
nope, my child can't have apacifier or there can't be any
screens for the first threeyears of their life or four
years of their life, and grandpaaccidentally shows the
(18:38):
four-year-old a play a footballplay on his cell phone.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And the parents go bananas.
It's really hard.
It is, and parents are gettinggood information to do these
things, but the flexibility theyhave when it doesn't go well is
really difficult and I have tothink that's coming from an area
of pressure, right.
Showing screens to babies haspretty bad research, according
to it.
So parents are really strictabout it and to feel like
there's no flexibility and thengrandpa breaks the rule they're
(19:11):
being so strict and discipliningthemselves so much and then
grandpa doesn't do it, like itfeels like cheating, like oh,
I've been, I don't.
It's a hard thing to do to notshow them screens, and but I can
do it and you can't.
I also think that's you got togive grandpa some grace, right?
That's what I feel like, Iguess.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I get torn between two working couples.
Many of my friends are doing atleast three times a week
childcare, some doing five daysa week, so they're exhausted and
then the kid gets down on thembecause their two-year-old had a
Tootsie Pop or something.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I think the most important thing when you're
dealing with a conflict is you?
have to validate their concern.
You have to say I know Iscrewed up.
I didn't mean that tootsie pop.
It was a moment of breakdown.
I'm sorry.
I knew it was equal quiet and Ineeded quiet in my brain and so
I just gave it to them.
And we have to be vulnerable tosay I value what you value.
(20:09):
I know you don't want yourchild to have sugar, you don't
want those artificial colors.
I see how important this is toyou.
I want to value that too.
I'm sorry I broke your trust.
It was a moment of weakness butI think it's okay to say I'm
probably going to have more ofthose Because I'm doing this
thing that you know it's hardphysically in your 60s and 70s,
(20:32):
especially to do what you can doin your 20s and 30s and 40s.
It's just easier to get up andrun around and get up and down
off the floor a million timesand have your sleep broken and
like you're a more flexibleperson.
But as we age, we become lessflexible, and so when we're
asked to do something thatcontinually demands from us,
(20:54):
there's going to be breakdown.
There just is.
And of course, parents aregoing to do it too.
But I think the first thing youhave to say is I trust what
you're asking me.
I know you're doing thisbecause you think this is the
best thing and I am not tryingto go against what you think.
I just like I forgot.
And then I showed the kid thevideo and then I realized, oh,
(21:16):
and you have to be accountableto be letting them down, and
that's really hard for us.
We don't want to be accountable.
It's super vulnerable and itfeels like they're judging us as
parents.
We laid our life down for ourkids.
We sacrificed a ton and we wantthem to see that, but what they
need in that moment, becausethey're so incensed, is for us
to see where they're whatthey're experiencing.
(21:37):
I see you being reallydisappointed.
I broke the screen rule.
I get it.
This is really important to youand I want to follow what's
important to you.
I'll try to do this better.
Blah, blah, blah.
Or can we make a plan wherethere's some compromise that
makes it a little bit easier forme?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
for whatever, because we.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
We are finite beings, and the older we get, the more
finite we are.
We have limitations, we havecapacities and we love to be
everything perfectly all thetime, just like new parents
would be.
But we're not going to do that.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
We're going to let them down.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
And then we have to be accountable that we let them
down, because if we're not, thatescalates quickly.
Kids need us to be accountableto them, which is also new.
That's totally new, because,let me tell you, I do not make
my parents accountable to meever.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I just don't get it.
I don't get it, so I brought uptwo things screens and sugar.
Are there other things you seethat we should be aware of in
modern parenting Germs?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Say that again Germs and vaccine.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Germs and vaccines.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
One of the biggest things right now is not kissing
the baby.
A lot of new parents do notwant anybody other than them
kissing the baby, and this isreally hard for grandparents,
because they're incrediblykissable and you may have waited
a really long time for thatgrandbaby and you just want to
do it so it.
So you have to kind of turn offyour instincts, and then
vaccines can be a really bigdividing factor.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I've had letters on that.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yes.
So grandparents are usuallyrequired to get a certain amount
of vaccines or have theirvaccines updated, and this is
really hard because it crossesthis line of self-health care,
having other people make thosedecisions for you, or basically
having restrictions if you don'thave the vaccines.
So that's a point of contentionI can see, and lately I mean I
(23:25):
hate to say it and we don't haveto get into it but politics
plays a role too.
I'm seeing a lot of parentshave different political views
than their parents.
The young parents to theirolder parents and sometimes they
don't want those negativeinfluences in their child's life
have different political viewsthan their parents, the young
parents to their older parents,and sometimes they don't want
those negative influences intheir child's life which seems
ridiculous to us because we'relike can we not all coexist,
(23:46):
having different opinions aboutthings?
This seems very reasonable in aworld we've always done, but the
more aware the millennials andGen Z are, the more they want an
environment that's conducive tosomething that's important to
them, which is harmony.
If you have people who aredisagreeing all the time at a
high level of conflict, theyoften don't want that around
them, and they often don't wantthat around their kids.
(24:08):
I'm seeing that as a dividingline too, and our kids cannot
expect us to change ourpolitical views because of
something they believe.
Our kids cannot expect us tochange our political views
because of something theybelieve, and yet we have to
somehow buffer that influence ifwe want to be around their kids
and we do.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
A lot of my episodes have talked about look in the
mirror.
We can have different views,but we can't be Archie Bunker.
Yeah, it's not healthy foranyone.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
And it really doesn't invite more relationship and
that's the way I think of itwith grandparents is it's really
the actions you take and thewords you choose either invite
more relationship or close downmore relationship, and so we
have to be motivated tocontinually open that
relationship if we want accessto grandbabies because they give
us so much joy and we want that.
Everyone has said that it'sunbelievable.
(24:59):
I thought, of course that'll begreat.
I didn't really understand whengrandparents would say oh, we
just get to love them, and givethem back.
Ha ha ha ha.
And I thought what they meantwas like we can spoil and we
don't have to follow the rules.
We can do whatever they want.
But what I realized, having myown grandchild, was it isn't so
much that I'm going to break anyrules, it's that I get a whole
(25:20):
human to delight in that I don'thave any responsibility for.
I don't have to lay awake atnight thinking did I do this
thing?
Is he going to?
be, okay as an adult, am I doingit all right?
I have kids who are verycapable.
They are parenting himbeautifully.
I get to borrow him, I get toenjoy him and then I get to give
him back and I don't have tothink about him.
I can go off to work and I cango to sleep and I don't have to.
(25:42):
I don't have to pay the pricethat I had to pay as a parent.
But I still get a lot of thejoy and that part I I don't feel
like people articulate it likethat Like all the joy without
the responsibility.
That's a dream, right?
If you had that as a parent, ifeverybody helped you take care
of your kid and everybody helpedyou with the finances and
everybody helped you with thehouse and the chores, having a
(26:05):
baby would be pretty delightful.
But of course that wasn't howit was for most of us.
Right, we had our kids, thereweren't a lot of people around,
we learned to figure out how todo it and we did it.
And now we get a littlecriticized for how we did it,
because our kids know I've gotevery you know social and
psychological approach in theworld because it's out there on
the internet and they can saywhy did you do it this way?
(26:26):
This wasn't, this isn't what Iwanted.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I wish you would have raised me like this?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, well, me too, but it wasn't available Right.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
So, listeners, we're going to take a quick break from
talking to Kimberly, because Irecently came across this very
cool product.
It's all about travel andengaging kids in travel.
I came across these guides.
They're called Curiosity TravelGuides.
It's spelled C-U-R-I-O city,but it's pronounced curiosity.
Very creative, huh?
I love that.
Now, what are they?
They're interactive travelguides designed for families
(27:01):
traveling with kids.
Right now, there are two citiesavailable London and Paris, and
they're making family tripstruly unforgettable.
And what I really like isthey're not techie.
I was so impressed that Iwanted to send the guide to
Ellen, my original co-host andpsychologist, to get her
perspective, both as agrandmother, but also as a
psychologist someone that workswith young people and I wanted
(27:23):
to get her idea of what shethought about them.
And then, for a specialsurprise, I reached out to the
creator of these, melissaManassi, and she's going to join
us too.
So stay tuned.
So, ellen, I sent them to you.
What are your thoughts on these?
Do so, stay tuned.
So, ellen, I sent them to you.
What?
Speaker 4 (27:37):
are your thoughts on these?
Do you like them as much as Ido?
I totally do.
I wanted to book a trip toParis as soon as I got the Paris
one.
There's so many things I likeabout it.
First of all are trulyinteractive and they're a
keepsake, so it's hard toexplain what they're like.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
You did a great job of it, but you can see inside,
find hidden things.
And what are the three mostinteresting things you saw today
?
What are weird things you sawtoday?
Even my son, who hated writing,would have hated it.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
And then I started thinking, like, not really, this
is the sort of thing we've gotto get out of, especially when
we're thinking about beinggrandparents that they react to
us very differently than they doto their parents.
(28:26):
They want to do things with us.
If we have a grandson who is 10and hates writing, but you like
it and he loves spending timewith you, which they do it's a
way for you to give them akeepsake that you do together.
I first picked it up andthought this is great for the
right kind of kid and then, inthinking about this as a larger
(28:48):
family community, it's just agreat way for a family to put
their memories on paper.
Not to mention, it's just agreat guide to a city, like,
honestly, I would use it myselfto sort of figure out, oh yeah,
what are the restaurants to goto or the more sites to go to,
to think about it as a way ofsparking communications and even
with a kid who might not be themost verbal 13-year-old, it's a
(29:12):
way to open up discussions andorganize the kinds of things
that you want to talk about andremember.
So I thought it was fabulous.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Well, I'm glad you did, and the real surprise is
we've got Melissa with us.
You've never met her, ellen,but I tracked her down and I
want to know, melissa, how didyou come across this idea, why
did you do it and what do youhope?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
others get from it.
Well, first off, denise, thankyou for that review and
excellent summary of it.
And Ellen, I'll take you toParis anytime you want.
Great, I'll bring the berets,no problem.
This book came out.
You know they always sayauthors write the book that they
wish that they had.
(29:54):
And, given my husband's job,when our kids were really little
, we had the opportunity totravel internationally quite a
bit.
But the source of this bookcame from as an academic, where
I studied all of the theoriesand concepts of international
and intercultural communicationcombined with being a mom to
three little kids.
(30:15):
Communication combined withbeing a mom to three little kids
when we were roaming thestreets of a great city in the
world, any great city.
You know, your motivation canonly take you so far.
I designed these books becauseI wanted something to inspire
questions between the parentsand the young adventurers, the
kids.
As I say, these guides don'ttell you where to go so much as
(30:41):
what to do when you get there.
The other thing that inspiredthis book is we would go on
these great trips.
I'd come home, we would put therefrigerator magnet on the
refrigerator and done, and thenI'm like, okay, so now, what do
we do?
What do we do with all thistravel?
The book was designed in reallythree main parts.
(31:03):
One, how do you prepare to goon a trip, but how do you get
your young person excited aboutgoing to one of these big cities
?
And by doing that you reallyneed to put them in the driver's
seat to both inspire and ignitecuriosity.
(31:23):
Then, with the book, it's thequestions to ask when you get to
the site.
So, using the Paris book as anexample, most of the kids have
seen a video, a TikTok, whateverof the Eiffel Tower.
One of my main purposes of thisbook was these kids have seen
all these things.
Rather than going up, taking apicture with your iPhone,
(31:47):
quickly posting it on Instagramand then waiting impatiently,
how many likes can all myfriends get back at home?
It's, don't take a picture ofthe Eiffel Tower.
Instead, turn around and take alook at the tourists.
The middle section meat andpotatoes of the book is learning
how to approach travel in a waythat leads with questions
(32:11):
rather than leads with theposting on Instagram.
The last 25% of the book is allabout okay, now what we're home
.
What do we do with this travel?
I offer questions, ideas,activities of ways of bringing
the travel back into yourhometown, because travel changes
(32:32):
us and it's supposed to.
Lastly, the kind of the piece deresistance, shall we say, and
the thing that I love about it,so going very old school with
the mementos that they would addinto the book.
So not only does the book helpyou prepare for travel, it gives
you ideas and support when you,as the parent, are exhausted.
(32:56):
It gives you ideas on bringingthe travel back, and then it
also creates a great keepsakethat the kids will refer to long
after the jet lag has subsided.
I love that.
So how can people get this?
You can order it most easilyoff of my website, which is
(33:16):
Curiosity Travel Guides and, asyou said, it's
curiocitytravelguidescom.
You can get it off of Amazon.
We're in about 15 differentbookstores and gift shops in the
Denver area.
You can get it at Beacon HillBookstore in Boston, but the
(33:36):
easiest way is just to click andget it off of the website.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Well, thank you Melissa.
Thank you, ellen.
It was great to get yourperspective.
Ellen, let's get back totoday's episode with Grandmother
Dula.
How old is your grandson?
He's a year and a half.
Oh, how fun.
You think they're doing a greatjob at parenting.
What does the grandparent dothat feels like the mom wants to
have a home birth, but maybe itreally goes against this mother
(34:00):
, thinking this baby's going todie, or they just want to have a
home birth, and maybe themother had a really complicated
birth and thinks you're crazy.
How do you continually biteyour tongue if you don't think
they're doing the parenting theright way?
Speaker 2 (34:15):
or not.
I don't have an easy answer,but I would say I would say two
things.
First, I would say deal withhow you feel about it.
Vent to someone not your kid,but vent to someone.
Get a therapist, get a friend,talk to someone who you can say
I think this is crazy and blah,blah, blah and blah.
Let it all out there and thenprocess really, what is it
(34:38):
that's holding you back, likewhat is it?
Is it the fear?
Is it worry?
Is it your own trauma?
Because a lot of us have traumathat's unresolved, because we
never even thought we could dealwith our trauma.
We thought we just had to gettougher and do it anyway right.
but now that we have avenues todeal with trauma, get a
therapist, do some meditation,do some prayer, figure out how
(34:58):
we really feel about this,because those the way we feel is
going to influence how muchimpact we have in their life,
how much relationship we get,and the more negative we feel,
the more there's going toinfluence how much impact we
have in their life, how muchrelationship we get, and the
more negative we feel, the morethere's going to be higher walls
and bigger boundaries.
So that'd be the first thing Iwould say is I think that's an
absolutely legitimate concern,but they should deal with that
away from the kids.
And second, I would say, onceyou've got kind of a handle, at
(35:20):
least you can recognize howyou're feeling.
Be curious about what your kidswant when.
Recognize how you're feeling,be curious about what your kids
want.
When you're curious, you showthat you trust them and you can
start to say, oh, I can see whyyou'd want that.
Oh, I can.
This seems you want a homebirth because it's a really
intimate experience and youdon't want to be in the hospital
with 16 to 20 strangers lookingat all your body and you don't
(35:43):
feel safe there.
Or maybe you lost someone andthe hospital represents death to
you, but home represents life.
I see that that makes sense.
You don't have to agree with it, but you can say I can see why
you'd want that.
And now you're putting yourtrust in your kids.
And the funniest thing I'vefound as a doula because I
haven't had tons.
My kids are only 20 and 25.
(36:04):
So I haven't had tons and tonsof adult children experience.
But as a doula, what I've seenis I agree with my clients
quickly.
Whatever they say.
I say, yeah, okay, let's dothat.
That sounds like a great planand sometimes in my heart I'm
like this is not a good plan.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
It's not going to work and you think it's going to
work.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
It's not going to work and you know what,
sometimes I'm wrong and exactlywhat they want to do works
perfectly, even though I knowthe evidence against it.
I've had thousands of babiesthat I've worked with that have
not done that.
I know it wouldn't work, butsometimes it does and it really
helps me to be more open and go.
You know, there's just a lot ofways to do this.
But even when it doesn't, evenwhen they basically make a
(36:43):
decision that I'm like okay,we'll try that inside my head,
but outwardly I'm like, okay,let's do it.
When I come the next visit I'llsay, yeah, we tried that.
It didn't work at all, butthey're willing to be vulnerable
because I was willing tobelieve in them.
I was like sure, let's give thisa try.
If they fail at it, I say, okay, well, what do we want to do
now?
What makes sense to you now?
(37:04):
And they said, well, we'regoing to do it this way, Great.
And then I get on board withthat and maybe that's a good
avenue, or maybe it's not.
But the quicker you agree, themore included you are.
And the more they're willing tosay gosh, we really we didn't
make a good call on that one.
Yeah, we all do that.
(37:25):
That's, that's parenting.
It's really hard and you'regoing to make some wrong calls,
but you know what Research showsyou only have to get it right
50% of the time with babies tobuild this like lasting,
beautiful bond with your child.
So it's okay, you got 50% toscrew up.
I just find that if you'rereally stuck, things are going
to break.
But if you stay flexible andlet your grown kids who've
probably really thought this outthey've done a lot of research
(37:48):
they have a lot behind thisdecision, even if it goes
against everything you've alwaysbelieved if it's important to
them, you kind of got to get onboard and trust them.
And the more you trust them,the more involved they're going
to have you.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Let's talk about these early weeks.
You come to visit maybe thesecond or third week and they're
really struggling with, say,breastfeeding or sleep.
I'm a little worried about thispersonally.
They're struggling withbreastfeeding.
How to be supportive and notwant to say, well, take the baby
and do this.
Are there approaches that youuse that we should learn to help
(38:21):
them sort of navigate this?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
The biggest difference in breastfeeding I
think has happened.
Uh, happened in 1985 because wehad professional lactation
consultants that were boardcertified, trained and certified
in 1985.
And now every hospital has them.
The breastfeeding rates in 85were, I don't know, 25 or 30%
and they're 83% now.
So the vast majority ofeveryone is breastfeeding, which
(38:47):
means we're going to have moreproblems, more complications.
There's the people who werebreastfeeding in the seventies,
eighties, nineties were peoplewho were doing it because it was
manageable.
It was easy enough to do.
Maybe not easy, but manageable.
Right, it resolved itself.
The people who arebreastfeeding now is almost
everyone.
So there's all kinds offamilies that have.
(39:07):
They been.
In the seventies, eighties,they would just stop
breastfeeding in formula fitbecause that was so acceptable.
Then the vast majority ofpeople formula fit.
Now the vast majority of peoplebreastfeed.
If you have a problem and youcan't easily overcome it, you
have tons of avenues to fix it,where I think the grandparents
come in and say well, I did this, try this.
What they're suggesting was aneasy enough solution that made
(39:30):
it work for them, but thesolution for their kids might be
way more complicated.
And then I would just say bringin a professional and get on
board with thatperson and what the parents want
to do with a professional Cause.
The parents don't always lovewhat the professionals say.
I'm a lactation consultant tooand sometimes they're like, eh,
we don't really like this plan.
I'm like, all right, let's,what can you do?
Let's change the plan.
(39:51):
But I would say withgrandparents, the best thing to
do would be to listen to theexperts and read their kids
really well, like if the expertssay, here's this plan, you got
to pump 12 times a day and yougot to store your milk and
here's what you got to do andthe grandparents are like
there's no way they're going todo that.
And then the kids come and gothis is overwhelming.
Say, okay, we got this plan.
(40:11):
What?
What do you like about it?
What do you not like about it?
Because grandparents whobreastfed they understand the
concept right.
They know the more youbreastfeed, the more milk you
make.
Like they got the basics down.
It's not like you have to teachthem, but the nuance of like
pump flanges are all.
There's like 18 pump flangesizes now.
There's 30 different pumpcompanies.
(40:31):
They all make five to 10different pumps.
So the amount of overload toget.
Oh, and there's three differentshapes of pump flanges too.
So how could you possibly knowthat all of these things have
happened in the last 30 years?
And even the pump flange sizesonly got research last December,
last December 2024.
Things are changing so quicklyit's impossible for grandparents
(40:53):
to be up to date enough to sayoh, I read this thing about
tongue tie and I hear there'sexercises you can do to reduce
tension.
Yeah, lactation consultantsknow that.
But an average grandparent whowas an accountant or a marketing
manager doesn't know anythingabout that and shouldn't be
expected to.
So when they say just do thisor just do this, it sounds like
(41:14):
a simplification of a problemthat like they don't believe
their child is working hardenough.
Parents do not like thatjudgment.
They feel that's a pushyapproach, even though all the
grandparent is trying to do issay well, I got through it.
I believe you can too.
So that's what I would say.
Rather than trying to fix it, Iwould say I know you to be a
(41:35):
resilient, determined, creativeproblem solver.
I know you're going to getthrough this and I'm going to be
here to help you whatever youneed.
I believe in you.
Let's go see that lactationconsultant and see what kind of
plan we can get rather than wellI know, with me.
I just did.
That feels so pushy, even thoughI know it is not meant that way
(41:56):
, but that's how it's received.
I found that to be such aroadblock for grandparents
because they're like I know Icould get her to do it if she
just would, but as a lactationconsultant, I can tell you if
that approach would work.
She probably already tried itand it didn't work.
And now she's like I need ahigher level of problem solving
and it's available so she canget it.
Plus, by the time someone seesa lactation consultant, they've
(42:18):
probably read 25 articles online.
They've watched hundreds ofreels on TikTok or Instagram.
We have tons of overload.
Maybe it's this, maybe it'sthis, maybe it's this.
And how can their brain whenyou're postpartum, sort through
all that.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
It's so overwhelming.
Oh gosh, I that's you know, Inever thought of all that
information coming at them.
That sounds like hell to me.
To be honest with you, it's notfun, I will say.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
a lot of parents are not choosing to have kids
because of all this pressure.
So our birth rate's actuallygoing down.
So part of being a grandparent,I think, is you need to
celebrate the fact that yourlegacy is going on, because
there's lots of generations thattheir legacy is not going on
and where you might be unhappyabout the way it's being done.
You kind of got to be gratefulthat it's being done because you
(43:05):
could be in that situationwhere you have no grandkids and
that's just the rest of yourlife and you know what?
That's a huge chunk of joy thatyou're missing out on.
That you're going to have tocarve out some other way,
because if you don't getgrandkids, I mean that's the
biggest sorts of joy people sayin retirement, bigger than
anything.
I just mean if you look atgrandparents and they chart to
tell you what's most joyful,they will tell you the grandkids
(43:27):
are right up there.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
It'd be really hard, as a mother who breastfed, to
have your daughter say I'm notbreastfeeding.
Yeah, it would be, and how doyou deal with that?
Speaker 2 (43:40):
You vent to the people who can hear you, because
that's not your daughter.
You vent to people who can say,ouch, that looks like a slap in
your face.
After all the work you did tobreastfeed, why is your daughter
doing this?
It sounds hurtful and letpeople grieve over what they're
missing, because if you wereexpecting to pass that on and
(44:02):
you wanted your grandchildbreastfed and they choose not to
or can't't, whatever, there'sgoing to be grief, and grief is
worthy of space and processing.
But trying to change that notgoing to happen.
Nothing you do will change theoutcome of what the decision
that the parents will make andif you try to change it will
(44:28):
make.
And if you try to change it,estrangement is a possibility.
So while I think that's anabsolutely valid concern for a
grandparent, there's no avenuethat's safe to say it to your
grown kids.
Maybe later, at some point,when that child is healthy and
grown, they can say, oh, Iwanted that baby breastfed so
badly, but look how amazing youdid with formula, look at what a
great kid they turned out.
I trust you so much.
(44:49):
And you might not be able tosay it in the moment, but I
would challenge grandparents toget to the point where they can
say that, because it's reallygoing to mean a lot to those
parents because everyone istelling them to breastfeed.
Everyone, every research study,every doctor, every
obstetrician, every pediatricianis going to tell them to
breastfeed.
And if they choose not to,they've chosen it for a reason,
(45:10):
and it might not seem like agood reason, but it is to them
and I can understand the sadnessthat might come.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
When they wanted to and can't, then that's an
emotional.
You have to be supportive.
If they just make a hard, fastchoice, too much trouble for me.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I'm not doing it.
I'd have to really work onbiting my tongue, I would say.
As a lactation consultant, Isee people where they beat their
head against the wall to try tobreastfeed and try and try and
try and try and end up withdepression and anxiety and
taking meds.
Really, the outcome would havebeen much better had they chosen
formula from the beginning,because they could have started
building their own parentinginstincts and just believing in
themselves.
People say oh, you're notsupposed to be so supportive of
(45:49):
formula.
You know, what I am.
Supportive of parents first,that's exactly right.
Right, lactation is a skill Ihave, but my goal is for parents
to trust themselves.
You need that when you'reraising kids.
You've got to be able to trustyour own instincts and right now
our world is ripping instinctsaway by burdening parents with
tons of anxiety and pressure.
(46:10):
And I think we have to get tothe core of saying this baby
came to me Like.
I get to make the choices aboutit and people trust me and I'm
going to do a good job and I'mthe right parent for this baby.
And that's more important to methan if they formula, feed or
schedule their babies or yeah, alot of people are scheduling
C-sections and things like that.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Yep, yep, and even scheduling their like behavior.
They'll have a whole schedulethat they do with their baby and
I think, okay, that's not veryorganic in terms of seeing what
the baby is, but you know what,it works really well for some
babies.
Okay, you know, there's a,there's a way to be able to see
it without um criticizing.
No, I get that, but I I havehad the joy of getting to see
(46:52):
that with thousands andthousands of parents.
Even when they do it the way Iwould not have chosen to do it,
I see the outcome.
So I have this like breakingoff of my hard, hard and fast
things because of all theseexperiences and grandparents
often haven't had that.
You know that's a benefit thatI've seen families be a million
different ways and have it bebeautiful and loving,
(47:13):
interesting.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
So one of the hardest things is when you do live far
away, and I hear a lot ofdiffering things.
A lot of people say rent anAirbnb, have your own space,
don't be on top of them.
Not everyone can afford this.
You're flying to thedestination, you want to stay a
couple of weeks, or maybe theyeven want you to help with
childcare a month or whatever itis, so that the child doesn't
(47:34):
have to go to childcare so early.
How do you balance not being intheir way if you have to stay
with them?
Speaker 2 (47:41):
The best approach I've seen is I call it on hours
and off hours.
So basically you think about itlike a job, right?
You have to show up to work,being rested, being nourished,
hydrated, take care of your ownneeds You're on and then, when
you're off, you get yourdowntime.
You get to exercise, you get toeat what you want or cook what
(48:01):
you want, or read or havedowntime.
When you're on, you can't thinkabout all your needs.
You have to be on, but whenyou're off, you really do need
to take care of everything.
And I think sometimes the onhours for grandparents are about
three to four hours at a time,and not eight hours or 12 hours
or 14 hours.
And we have to look at our bodycapabilities.
(48:23):
If what we need is an hour inthe morning to get up and read
the news and to have coffee andto go to the bathroom and take a
shower and whatever like, weneed an hour of downtime.
Well, infants do not allow yousuch luxuries.
We've all done that and part ofwhat we like about our life is
we've curated it the way thatworks for us.
We eat the way that works thebest.
(48:44):
We exercise the way that worksfor us.
We eat the way that works thebest, we exercise the way that
works the best.
So when you shut all that offand just focus on an infant, you
start falling apart, right?
You start not getting your ownneeds met, you don't have any
downtime, you're not sleepingenough, you're not eating in the
right way, you're notexercising.
All of a sudden, you're justnot so happy.
Your body's not working thatwell.
So I really say think of itlike a job, do everything you
(49:07):
need to do on your off hours andcarve out the things that you
need.
So if you're in another citybut you do yoga twice a week, go
find the yoga classes and dothem twice a week.
If you're going to be there fora couple of weeks because you
can live without yoga for a week, but by week three you're
ticked off and you have nowherefor that angst to go.
Right, it's really about, Ithink, carving out the time and
(49:32):
being really selfless whenyou're on, but being really
selfish when you're off, becauseotherwise we're not strong to
be there for our kids.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
If you have to stay with them, would you say that
for the hours you're on, you'rearound and about because you're
working with the baby, but whenyou're off you're either out or
in your room and you give themthe space that they need?
New parents need a lot of spaceto.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
It's just a slow pace and I think for grandmas
especially, we're like we'redoing stuff, like we're cleaning
and organizing and shopping andcooking and prepping, and
that's hard work for us, but thethe space of a baby is slow.
It's recognize the moments andbe in the moment, and so the
(50:11):
work we do around parents can bereally busy, but when we're in
that moment with the baby, weneed to be slow, we need to be
able to recognize, and I don'tthink we can do that if we're
busy thinking about all thestuff we have to do.
I think there's some on stuffthat we do with practicalities
and then there's some on timewhere we just look at our kid
and say you're amazing, you'reso much better of a parent than
(50:35):
I ever could have been or evencould have dreamt that you are.
We have to take the time toslow down enough to recognize
what they're doing and whatthey're doing might just be
their baby looked at them andwe're like I remember you
looking at me.
Like that, that's so beautiful,like you have to be able to take
that space and do it.
And if you're busy, busy, busy,busy, busy, you can't right.
(50:57):
They might say, oh, mom was sohelpful, she did all these
things.
But what they may really wantis just for you to be in that
moment to say you're incredible,you're an incredible mother,
and I see what you do for yourchild, I see the hours of
breastfeeding that you'reworking through and I know
you're going to be successfulbecause I trust you.
There's that.
But if you don't take care ofyourself during your on off time
(51:19):
, you can't be in that moment.
Like you just don't have themental and emotional energy to
recognize that.
And your kids need that.
I think they need that morethan any of the practical stuff,
cause you can hire out a lot ofpractical stuff.
You can have meals delivered.
You can have um someone comeand clean the house, right.
We can have someone come andtake the dogs for a walk and get
groceries.
Those are all that stuff can bedone.
(51:41):
But no one else is the voice ofthe emotional support that the
grandparents.
That's beautiful and it meansthe most.
It means way more than even forme as a professional.
I say those things to moms andthey just tear up and it matters
to them.
But when their own parents saysit, they're just like they.
(52:01):
They recognize, they see me,they love me, they trust me.
That's as good as you canexpect as a parent right.
To have someone else reallybelieve in you, that's an
incredible feeling.
And to have your own parents,who've seen you through some of
your awkward stages right, whohave known you aren't always
successful, to believe thatyou'll be successful and that
you are successful, I thinkthat's one of the deepest needs
(52:23):
of our heart.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
That's really beautiful.
I would love to end with thatbecause it's so beautiful, but I
have to ask you for twotakeaways.
But I really love that and forme, especially, who's always on
and moving fast, that's gonna bemy huge takeaway.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yeah, you're not the only one.
When I speak to grandparents,many of them think about all the
things they can do, butrecognizing who their kids are
is far more important.
And that's actually one of mytakeaways.
Okay, good, go for it.
My first takeaway is to believein your kids, is to know that
you've done all the work thatyou could do to make them good
(52:59):
parents and trust theirinstincts with their kids and
let them borrow your beliefduring a time that's high
pressure, low sleep, not a lotof nurturing, and yet they're
giving a lot of nurturing away.
Think of them in a deficit thatyou have to pour into just for
that early postpartum phase, notforever, but just early on,
because it's really hard andthey don't trust themselves and
(53:22):
nothing we have built in ourculture allows them to trust
their instincts.
If they can borrow yourconfidence just for a little
while until they feel itthemselves, they're going to
feel it faster and earlier andhave more trust in themselves.
So believe and and don't justsay you're a great mom or you're
a great dad, but say I see theway you care for your kid, I see
(53:43):
you getting up at 3am and 4amand 5am, what an investment you
are making in nurturing thisbaby and it's really going to
pay off and I I love what you'redoing with your kids, or I love
this about you be specific.
And then number two is makesure that you're getting your
own needs met too, as agrandparent, because I think we
(54:04):
haven't had a culture where wecan go to therapy, where we can
have some reflection on howwe're feeling and some
recognition of our own grief andour own pain, sort of
postpartum abandonment.
You know, we didn't have a lotof postpartum care.
It hasn't been present inseveral generations, and so to
pour into a next generationfeels like, and so to pour into
a next generation feels like,well, nobody did this for me and
(54:26):
I was okay, except there's somehurt there that nobody did it
for you and had you been able tochange it, you would have,
because you knew you needed help, like postpartum needs help,
new babies need help.
This is a cultural shift thatwe're doing it independently.
So I think if you can go getyour own needs met and have
someone say that grief is worthyof being processed, let's
(54:49):
process how that feels, so thatyou can get to a place where
you're like okay, now I can, Ican handle what they're throwing
at me, because, even though Idon't necessarily believe in it
or I didn't practice it that way, it matters to them and they
matter to me, but you can't getto that emotional space until
(55:09):
you've all the stuff that'sinside, and that isn't something
we're super practiced at.
So that's my second takeaway.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
So I would love you to tell people how they can get
in touch with you.
Why don't you do that?
Sell yourself a little bit atthe end.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
Fair enough.
So I have several hats that Iwear, but the primary one right
now is grandparentdoulacom, sothey can go to the site.
They can read all about theclass that I have offered.
I have a lot more atabcdoulacom because I'm still
running my doula agency and wehave a lot of classes for
parents and grandparents theretoo, but the main goal is there
(55:46):
at grandparentdoulacom and thenon Instagram I'm at
thegrandparentdoula and we havea lot of fun there because I get
lots of feedback fromgrandparents.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
Oh, I bet that's a great one to follow and I will
put that both your website andthe Instagram in my episode
notes and also in my socialmedia when the episode drops.
So, kimberly, thank you so much.
I'm on my way.
I'm going to be a bettergrandparent.
Mostly I have to get rid ofeverything and talk to other
people, but thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
Okay, thanks.
(56:20):
Well, I hope all of you lovethat as much as I did.
Most of you who've beenlistening know I'm a high energy
person, so I'm going to have toreally tone myself down.
It's going to be a big journeyfor me, but this really helped.
So, as you know again, we'renot dropping episodes as
regularly as we have before, butthere's lots of fun things
(56:41):
coming up, and I have to thankConnie Gorn Fisher again, our
audio production engineer, andwrite to us
biteyourtonguepodcast atgmailcom, share your comments
and ideas and certainly if youhave people you think would be
really great for us to interview.
We're still looking for support.
I know we're not doing it asoften, but we're still paying
(57:01):
for our platforms.
Buy us a virtual cup of coffee,biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
It's just $5.
Make a small donation.
Thank you all once again forlistening and remember,
sometimes you just have to biteyour tongue.
Thank you.
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