September 19, 2025 • 39 mins
Relationship and Friendship expert Shasta Nelson shares powerful insights on transforming parent-adult child relationships and building meaningful connections throughout life.
Emphasizing her Friendship Triangle framework of positivity, consistency, and vulnerability.
1. The Triangle of Healthy Relationships : Shasta introduces a powerful framework for understanding relationships, which consists of three essential components: positivity, consistency, and vulnerability. To foster a strong connection with our adult children, we need to ensure that our interactions are filled with positive emotions, that we spend consistent time together, and that we allow ourselves to be vulnerable. This triangle is not just applicable to parent-child relationships but can also enhance our friendships and other connections in life.
2. The Importance of Vulnerability : One of the most profound insights from our conversation is the idea that vulnerability is a gift we can give to our children. By opening up about our own experiences, regrets, and feelings, we create a safe space for them to share their own thoughts and emotions. Shasta emphasizes that it’s crucial for parents to ask their adult children about their childhood experiences and to listen without being defensive. This kind of openness can lead to healing and a deeper understanding of each other.
3. Building Our Own Support Systems : As parents, it’s easy to become overly focused on our relationships with our children, sometimes to the detriment of our own well-being. Shasta reminds us that cultivating our friendships is essential for our happiness and health. By prioritizing our own social connections, we not only enrich our lives but also become better equipped to support our children. After all, a fulfilled parent can foster a more positive and nurturing environment for their kids.
I truly believe that this episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the challenges of parenting adult children or looking to strengthen their friendships. Join us as we explore these themes and more! 🎧💖
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Allow yourself to be vulnerable, you're bringing your
defenses down.
That's probably the biggestgift a parent can give because,
let's face it, you could doeverything perfect as a parent
and a kid is still going to haveissues because they were raised
by a perfect parent.
There's nothing you can dowhere you're not going to have
issues.
But I think the biggest giftthat we can do as parents is to
(00:24):
open up that conversation and tosay, like, was childhood hard
for you and what do you wish Ihad done more of, and what do
you wish I had done less of?
Where were the moments thatreally impacted you as a child
and where was I in that?
Be interested and not defensive.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hey everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue the podcast
.
Join me, your host, DeniseGorin, as we explore the ins and
outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
(01:08):
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when to
bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Welcome back to a brand newepisode of Bite your Tongue the
podcast.
It's been a whirlwind summer forme.
I've been traveling, soaking upfamily time and, best of all,
visiting my new grandson.
People always say grandchildrenare pure joy, but wow, I was
(01:30):
not prepared at all for how muchmy heart would expand.
But what's been extra specialis watching my husband with our
new grandbaby.
When our kids were younger heworked such long hours and
didn't have a lot of those babydays, but this time he got a
weekend all to himself with ourdaughter, son-in-law and the
baby, while I was off to my 50thhigh school reunion which is a
(01:55):
story in itself and when he camehome he looked at me and he
said Denise, that was the mostwonderful weekend of my life.
My heart just melted.
But anyway, speaking of that50th reunion, that brings me
right into today's topicfriendship.
50 years went by in a flash,but it was meaningful to
(02:15):
reconnect with so many people Ihadn't seen in decades.
But today we're not talkingabout old friends, we're talking
about new friendships.
We're not talking about oldfriends, we're talking about new
friendships, specifically thefriendships we can, and
sometimes can't, build with ouradult children.
Can we shift our relationshipsas they grow?
Can we repair what might bestrained?
(02:37):
There's so much to unpack here,which is why I'm thrilled to
welcome friendship expert ShastaNelson to help us dive into the
emotional heart of connectionand how it shapes our families.
If you've ever wondered how tostay close to your adult
children without smothering them, or how to navigate the tricky
dance between parenting andfriendship, you're in the right
(02:58):
place.
Shasta is one of today's mosttrusted voices on human
connection, a TEDx speaker, aleading friendship expert and an
author of three game-changingbooks on how our relationships.
Listen to this ourrelationships actually shape our
health, happiness and work.
Today, she's helping us applyher tools to one of the most
(03:20):
complex and evolvingrelationships of all the one
between parent and child.
But that's only the first halfof our conversation.
In the second part of theepisode, we shift our focus to
another connection challengemany of us face at this age
building new friendships as weget older.
So let's get started.
Welcome, shasta.
(03:40):
I thank you so much for joiningus and I'm so looking forward
to chatting with you.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
So tell me, how did you getinto this whole world of healthy
connections, strengtheningconnections and friendship?
Never knew people, reallystudied this or were experts in
this, so how did this begin foryou?
Can you tell our listeners alittle bit about that?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, I mean my first career, I have my master's of
divinity and I was a pastor.
Oh my gosh, I know.
So I go back to that every oncein a while because the origins
of that my world growing up,that was where community existed
right, we all had relationshipsand belonging and a sense of a
support system.
After 10 years of that, I endedup deciding that I really felt
much more excited about bringingcommunity out into the world.
(04:23):
Not necessarily fewer and fewerpeople are coming into churches
to get that and I really feltlike I wanted to take it out
broader than that.
So for me, I made the switchand did some life coaching and
in that space I just kepthearing this ongoing issue.
I would always ask like, whoare your friends and what are
they saying about this?
And people weren't hiring mefor friendship back then.
It was they were hiring me forcareer development or divorce
(04:44):
questions.
And I would always say like,who's supporting you and what
are they saying?
Knowing that that determined somuch of somebody's success with
whatever their goals were.
And I just kept hearing areoccurring theme with all these
amazing successful people onthat at that time a lot of women
and just saying I don't reallytalk to anyone about this or,
since the divorce, I reallydon't confide in this.
(05:06):
All these differentcircumstances that I was like,
wow, people are not confiding,they don't have that support
system in place, they're notbeing really vulnerable with
very many people.
So it was really initially 15years ago, trying to find
resources for people who werelooking for friendship, who I
felt needed friendship.
And it was in that space,denise, where I was like, wow,
there is not anybody talkingabout this, there is no really
(05:29):
good resources out there.
That turned into I started thefirst female friendship matching
website back in the day.
That turned into me matchingwomen up, doing retreats and
conferences and friendshipaccelerators and workshops and
blogs and books and all thethings.
But that's 15 years ago and inthat space, I've just been
researching, teaching.
I think, especially as women,we get so obsessed with
(05:53):
parent-child relationships andfamily relationships and or
spouse relationships and we justhaven't always paid attention
to the relationships thatactually impact our health and
happiness the most, which is ourfriendship.
So, yeah, I've just been inthat space and I'm passionate
about all healthy relationships,but yeah, I just feel like
taking a stand for friendshipshas been important.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I really agree with you.
As you're saying this, I'mthinking to myself.
I'm almost 70.
And what I hear over and overagain among my friends and we
could also have tons of friendsyou might look at someone and
say, oh my gosh, they have somany friends and yet that person
can still feel very lonely.
There's still a loneliness.
So I get that.
That's really important.
But right now we're going tostart off talking about our
(06:34):
adult children, because there'sso much estrangement nowadays
with parents and their adultchildren.
I think when you're sad andwhen you don't have a healthy
relationship with this personthat you loved and nurtured and
supported all your life, it'shard to step out and make new
friends because you don't feelgood about yourself.
So I want to start by helpingthem at least have some kind of
(06:58):
relationship that works withtheir adult kids.
And I want to go back to yourhistory, because I know you
don't do this podcast anymore,but you had it for a while.
Say it out loud, because friendintimacy or something.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Frentimacy like friendship, intimacy yeah right
so I couldn't quite.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And I was listening to a few episodes and during it
you said your relationship withyour own mother was a bit
prickly.
From a personal perspective,what steps you took to make it a
little un-prickly?
Is it just a healthyrelationship?
What is the relationship thatparents should strive for with
their adult kid?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So many questions in there.
Love it, yeah, I mean and Iwould go back to say I would
well we can get into this too ina second about like friendship,
as, like I would say, one ofthe most healthy things we can
do in relationship with our kidsis go build our friendships up
and have healthy friendships,and so I think sometimes the
answer is through ourfriendships, so having our
(07:52):
friends who can we can share ourbroken hearts with and also
have a reality check from ourfriends and people who can help
pull up mirrors, and so ourfriends can play such important
roles in this.
But yes, I definitely havepersonal experience in this
front in terms of a lot of mymoms, and my disagreements have
been political over a decade andI would say from my perspective
(08:15):
I would say I always feel likeshe's trying to change me.
I don't have a problem with ushaving different political views
, but if you feel like everyconversation you have, somebody
is doing little jabs or justkind of trying to like pretend
you're not smart enough and youdon't know all the details and
you need to hear the other side,it does something to you and it
keeps disintegrating thatrelationship.
We've never been estranged, butI certainly call less
(08:37):
frequently and I certainly findmyself, when she wants to come
visit, finding myself being like, oh, do I have the energy for
that?
One of my favorite stories thatI think about when I think about
my mom is I remember she cameto visit me when I was living in
San Francisco.
I was speaking at some women'sevent that night and so I asked
her if she wanted to come to mytalk and I was teaching the
(08:57):
friendship triangle, which wecan get into here a tiny bit.
But basically, when we look atall healthy relationships and
this is family relationships,team relationships, romantic
relationships, when we look atevery healthy relationship model
that's out there, there's threethings that are present in all
of them and we can use differentwords for them, but every
single thing we want in arelationship is a synonym of
(09:17):
these three things, an outcomeof these three things or an
illustration example of thesethree things.
Those three things arepositivity, consistency and
vulnerability.
So we can come back and divedeeper into that.
But we were driving home fromthis event and I remember
clearly we were coming acrossthe Golden Gate Bridge and my
mom said thank you for invitingme tonight.
She was being very affirmingabout my talk and she said so.
(09:39):
I think if we wanted tostrengthen our relationship, we
probably need to increase ourconsistency.
Like we don't interact enough,we don't see each other enough.
And I remember my stomach justgetting all tight inside and I
was so impressed with her fortrying to think through how we
could talk about ourrelationship and I really wanted
to meet her in that moment thatthere's a part of me that just
wanted to keep it easy and belike, yeah, that would be good.
(10:01):
And I realized that I needed toreally speak up too in that
moment and I said yes, yes, Isaid you're right, and I have to
be really honest with you.
For me, the starting point hasto be positivity.
It has to be positive emotions,because I can't just increase
consistency if it doesn't feelgood.
Like if it doesn't feel good tointeract with you, if every
(10:23):
time you're at my house or everytime we're on the phone, I get
off feeling bad we'repsychological animals I'm not
going to want to increase myconsistency with you.
So until we get that positivitydown to me, that's just
foundational.
When I go out and teachworkshops, the research shows
that we have to have fivepositive emotions for every
negative emotion to keep arelationship healthy.
And to me that's just huge,because the more stressors in a
(10:47):
relationship, the more badhistory there's been in the
relationship, the more timessomebody feels judged.
We have two choices to get thatratio in balance.
One is figure out how todecrease the negative, whether
that's like forgive each other,set boundaries, solve that
stressor, or the only otheroption is to increase the
positive emotions.
But when you're in arelationship where there's not
(11:07):
enough pleasant emotions likehope and joy and inspiration and
affirmation and acts of serviceand kindness and fun, and you
know all the things we want,then you just can't do the other
two requirements ofrelationships.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
So yeah, for me that was a turning point with my mom
I want to get into this triangle, but I want to ask you
something.
A lot of parents I talk to feellike the pressure's all on them
, they're walking on eggshells,they're saying all the positive
things, they're trying so hard.
What part does the adult kidplay in this?
And how do you build anauthentic friendship when the
parents always feeling like theyhave to say that sounds great,
(11:43):
or you did a wonderful job, orthe baby sleeping great,
whatever it might be?
Sometimes you feel like youaren't being honest.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, yeah, well.
So let's go back to thetriangle, because I think we
have to do that first, becauseeverything's from that right.
So the bottom of the triangle,at the foundation of every
healthy relationship, ispleasant emotions.
Let's be super clear that beingpositive does not mean always
saying positive things.
What you're describing a littlebit there might feel like toxic
positivity, like beingPollyanna, fake positivity.
(12:11):
It's being just an encouragingperson, and what we're looking
for here isn't always just beingpositive, it's how do both
people feel after thisinteraction.
So it's based upon feelings,and how loved and accepted does
this person feel, and vice versa.
So what we're measuring here is, like all of us, when we want
to be in relationship, we'relooking for a reward.
(12:33):
I mean, at the end of the day,we gravitate to the people, the
places, the things, theexperiences that leave us
feeling good, and we go intorelationships wanting to enjoy
them, and so there has to bemore of that than not.
And then the two sides up thetriangle we mentioned.
Consistency is one of them.
That's where trust is built,that's where it's not just
consistent time, but it'sconsistent behavior, which is
(12:54):
really key when we're talkingabout long-term relationships.
But this is where we log hours.
This is where we have sharedexperiences, this is where we
make memories together.
This is our time spent doingthings together or interacting.
Then the third requirement isvulnerability.
This is where we feel authentic.
Authentic and this is where wefeel like we know each other,
and this is where we feel likewe can share our opinions and
speak up a little bit.
(13:15):
All three of these have to worktogether and they go round and
round and round.
So when we have a positiveinteraction, we're more likely
to wanna do it again, which isconsistency.
When we interact, we hopefullyget to know each other a little
bit more, something that's goingon in each other's life, which
is a little bit of vulnerability.
In response to thatvulnerability, we need to get
off that phone call or leavethat event feeling good that we
(13:36):
shared what we shared.
So it needs to have positivity,which will make us want to
repeat the experience, whichwill help us get to know each
other, which will feel good.
Those three things just have tokeep happening.
In connection, what happenswith our parent-child
relationship so often is we haveso much history and so we can
do so much pain and hurt that wehave to heal or come at it and
(13:56):
realize that we're trying tocreate a different pattern, and
so, yes, what you're speaking ofis, I don't want anyone going
out there being fake.
I don't want anyone not beingvulnerable.
Vulnerable is a huge part ofour relationships and building
that, and you parents need tofeel seen just as much as a kid
needs to feel seen.
So that is so, so, so important.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
How does a parent feel seen and vulnerable in the
kind of relationship where youdon't want to feel like you're
judging the child?
Let's do a little example.
Let's talk about somethingprobably so many people deal
with.
Their daughter or son comeshome and they're dating someone
and you're just appalled at whothey're bringing home.
I know it's none of ourbusiness, this is who they've
selected.
But how can you be vulnerable?
(14:35):
I wouldn't even say to a goodfriend I don't like him at all
or I don't like her at all.
So how would you take thatconversation and run with it?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But see, I would say the same thing about my dearest
girlfriends.
I've had girlfriends who datesomebody that I'm just like, oh,
but it's not.
If they're not asking for myopinion, then that is not my
role to be.
That's not where.
That's not vulnerability.
Me just weighing in onsomebody's life, that's not
vulnerability.
If they're not asking for thatvulnerability is me saying, okay
, like in that situation, whatis appropriate to share in this
(15:04):
moment that helps me build myrelationship with this person
and support their life.
Questions, questions I wouldask, is what is it you like
about him?
Tell me what he does for you,how does he feed you and how is
that different than otherrelationships you've been in?
And they're only going to sharethose things with you if they
feel like we're not judging them, if we feel like the positive
emotions are there.
Our job in that moment is not toweigh in.
(15:25):
Our job in that moment is afriendship is about accepting
people's choices, no matter what, and trusting, 100% trust.
And I do this for my friends, Ido this for my adult
stepchildren, I do this formyself, my husband, all of us.
It's not my job to go be ajudge of everyone's life.
It's my job to say no matterwhat choices you make, even if
they end up quote being thewrong choice, I trust that life
(15:46):
is going to teach you what itneeds to teach you and I trust
that you're going to have theexperiences and the growth that
you need to have.
Even if this relationshipdoesn't make it, that's okay,
because you're going to become abetter person through it, and
my job is to go through lifewith you and be your biggest
cheerleader.
I want you to succeed and Itrust that you're going to grow,
so it's not my job to weigh inon that.
This is really interestingbecause I'm in a girls group
(16:07):
that we talk, we are best, best.
I heard all about that on here.
I know we talk every Sunday.
We talk every Sunday and I'vegot to tell you, out of the five
of us, we're all really what Iwould call healthy, committed to
personal growth, aware women,and I cannot tell you how much
of our conversations have to dowith our parents.
There's a couple people who Iwould say have been close to
(16:28):
being estranged to a parent.
There's one who is I mean,we're talking about that all the
time.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Are you able to share it all without diverging
anything?
What are the kinds of thingsthat parents do?
Because I remember talkingabout my parents and I'm sure my
adult kids are talking about meand my husband they probably
aren't talking about becausehe's so easy and easy to get
along with.
I'm a little bit moreopinionated.
What I aren't talking aboutbecause he's so easy and easy to
get along with, I'm a littlebit more opinionated.
What are the kinds of thingsyou would urge parents to stop?
(16:54):
Start, what would help themmake a healthier relationship?
And then I want to ask yousomething more about the
vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, I mean.
So I was going to say what's sovaluable about us having that
girls group and having thoseconversations is that's where
vulnerability is happening,that's where we can be honest
with each other so that we canthen show up.
One of my girlfriends is havinga really tough.
She doesn't think her dad.
So it goes both ways.
We judge right, mom doesn'tthink her dad should have a
surgery that he's going to have.
(17:20):
It's just so easy to feel likevery crunchy around this and,
yeah, and all of us having theseconversations and this just
happened where I was able tomirror to her just at some point
this is his decision to make.
What you don't want is for himto go into the surgery and you
being crunchy and something notgoing well.
Right, but as friends, that'sthe vulnerability.
We can do that with each other.
(17:40):
As parents, we should not beprocessing that with our kid.
We should have friends in ourlives.
That's where vulnerability ishappening, so that then we can
come back and say, okay, where'sthe place where I might be able
to speak into my parents' lifeand say, just FYI, this is
making me nervous, I'm not likeon board with this completely
and so, yeah, I can weigh in andbe vulnerable, but also
realizing it is not my job toweigh in and make a vote for his
life.
All of us are struggling withlike finding our ways to do that
(18:03):
.
If I were to say, across theboard, the biggest things are
just kids not feeling like theirparents.
See who they are and thecontributions they've made and
the healing they've done.
I feel like every person I knowjust wants their parents to see
them for who they are.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
And be proud of them, and you never quite.
For some reason, there'ssomething you don't quite feel,
and every time, as a parent ofadult children, you're a little
afraid to say anything that'sconcerning, because that's going
to take away from you feelinglike you're proud of them.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, yeah, and I think we just are so invested in
each other and we love eachother, and I think we just have
to reframe what it means to loveeach other.
We're not here to do lifeperfectly.
We're not here to be right allthe time.
I think it's coming back tojust holding it looser, and you
can always find something to beproud of them for and recognize
we don't do everything we saywe're going to do.
I was going to get acolonoscopy.
(18:53):
I asked my doctor for it.
It's been eight months and Iwas like I need to do that.
But it's opening a conversation.
All of us want to know somebodycares about us.
So I think it's try to find theways of saying how can I show
up in this space and besupportive as possible?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
and be supportive as possible.
That's really interesting.
So let's go back to friendshipand building it.
You were lucky.
Your mother came and listenedto you and heard the triangle
and said we need moreconsistency.
How can we, as parents,approach that kind of thing with
our adult children?
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, One of the other things.
I really applaud my dad.
I was going to switch to my dadhere for a second.
We were on a trip with my dad.
We were sitting down and hesaid to me when he goes, did I
say I love you enough to you asa kid?
What a beautiful, reflectivequestion to ask.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
And.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I was able to say I always knew you loved me.
But yeah, I don't know that yousaid it that much, but I knew
it.
And he's like, yeah, I thoughtabout that a lot, it.
And he's like, yeah, I'vethought about that a lot and I'm
really sorry for that.
I want to try to do thatdifferently.
I have so much respect, so muchrespect for my dad for asking a
question that allowed him to bereflective and allowed me to
(19:59):
share my experience in a way, Ithink one of the most important
things and this has got to bethe hardest thing for a parent
but it's let us share with youwhat hurt us, and that doesn't
mean that we are blaming you.
It doesn't mean that you didn'tdo the best you could do.
That's vulnerability.
Vulnerability isn't showing upand telling somebody what you
think they should do with theirlife.
Vulnerability is actually likehow have I impacted you in a way
(20:22):
that I might not be aware?
That's real vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
That's a good question.
How have I impact you in a waythat I might not be aware?
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, and to be, open enough to receive that, which
vulnerable means lettingsomebody attack you in theory,
right, like you're vulnerable,you're bringing your defenses
down, and I think that'sprobably the biggest gift a
parent can give because, let'sface it, you could do everything
perfect as a parent and a kidis still going to have issues
because they were raised by aperfect parent.
There's nothing you can dowhere you're not going to have
(20:51):
issues.
My girls group we kind of jokeabout this.
They all have kids, their own,and it's terrible to think that
20 years from now, our kids aregoing to be sitting around
griping about us the way we areour parents.
But I think the biggest giftthat we can do as parents is to
open up that conversation and tosay, like, what ways was I, was
childhood hard for you and whatdo you wish I had done more of
and what do you wish I had doneless of?
Where were the moments thatreally impacted you as a child
(21:13):
and where was I in that?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Be interested and not defensive and I was going to
say you can't say, when they sayit say I did not, I tried to
blah, blah, blah.
Then you immediately say I'mglad you're telling me this.
This is helpful to me.
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
And then you're just like well, I am so sorry I was
not able to be there in thatmoment for you.
I mean my I've had so manyhealing conversations with my
parents in the last couple ofyears.
I am so grateful to them andit's helpful for me if, as soon
as they become vulnerable if youwill I immediately am just like
no, no, I totally understand.
I mean, you guys are just likewe've become the graceful
parents of people when we seeyou hurting.
(21:50):
But we need to know that wedon't feel seen if we don't feel
like our parents canacknowledge the things that
impacted us, and I think thatthat's just something is always
going to be there until a parentcan say I want to know those
things, I'm open to hearingthose things, and kind of create
the space for that and be asafe.
For, if you like, to your point, if you're defensive in that
(22:10):
space, you lose trust,Everything Very hard to do it
again and you'll have to comeback another time and you'll
have to be like I did not dowell last time, so sorry, but
you have to own that and youhave to say I am so sorry, I
really do want to know this andI really am wanting a
relationship with you, and Ireally do.
(22:31):
You have to.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Then really own that so much of this is so true.
I want to get into thefriendship for us because truly
I think if you have good friendsaround you and keep your life
engaged, you're less dependenton the relationship.
I was just with a friend lastweek and her daughter must have
called 10 times in a day and I'mlike, oh gosh, we will text a
(22:53):
couple times a week and thefuller my life is, the less I
feel like I have to depend on mykids.
Rewind a minute.
I want to get to the pointwhere we have to develop our
lives and our friendships inorder to have fuller lives and
not so dependent on our kids.
I interviewed someone.
It was a professor from Cornell.
(23:15):
He wrote a book aboutestrangement and he told me
there's something calledintergenerational stake.
The parent's stake in therelationship is so much greater
because they've raised them froma baby, they've invested
emotionally, monetarily, everykind, so they just they want to
still have this relationship.
The child's stake they lovetheir parents but they're
developing their own life.
They now have a greater stakein this family that they're
(23:37):
developing.
They have a new immediatefamily and that's hard for many
parents of adult kids to take aback seat and say you know what
I'm second now.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you're naming it.
I would say this is the higherpriority for all of us is to
focus on building our ownfriendships and our own
relationships.
It can be so easy and I go backto where I started in
friendship.
We get so obsessed with ourparent-child relationships and
our romantic relationships, butthe research continues to show
that married women with kidsdon't live longer, they are on
(24:10):
more antidepressants, they don'tmake as much money.
I mean, marriage and motheringis not that great for our health
and we're hopefully changingthat the way we're doing life
differently now.
But the truth of the matter isthe most important relationships
to our health and to ourhappiness are our friendships.
And I often say, when you justthink about friendship, I often
say, if you're feeling resentfulfor one person not really being
there for you, that's not asign that that person is failing
(24:33):
.
It's a sign that you have notbuilt up the support system that
you need.
And what do you mean by that?
You need more relationships inyour life.
Yeah, and I think so.
I mean, for example, I think ofsome of my best friends, and I
remember I was on book tour whenone of my girlfriends got like
a notice to move out of herapartment or eviction notice or
whatever.
And I'm like on book tour and Ican like kind of text and
sympathize but like I can't bethere and I'm so grateful I was
(24:55):
not her only close friend andthat she had other friends that
she could rely on and be there.
We often get our feelings sohurt in friendships If somebody
dies or we're moving and theydon't come help us.
We can ask for things, we cantry to build better, more
supportive relationships, butthe truth of the matter is all
of us need a variety ofdifferent relationships in our
lives that we can rely on.
And I think so often,especially in situations we're
(25:19):
talking about here, we put somuch emphasis on this one child
that it's not only affecting ourself-esteem but of course we're
going to show up withresentment because we're not
getting what we want from thatrelationship.
And, to your point, if we canbuild healthy, meaningful,
supportive relationships in ourlives, those are our friendships
.
Then we have those.
We're going to be able tomanage that parent-child
relationship better, but we'regoing to have so much more of
the things that we need.
(25:40):
My definition of a healthyrelationship is where two people
both feel seen in a safe andsatisfying way, and that's an
element we can do with ourparents for sure.
When I studied friendship moreand more and more, I got to a
place where I realized Iprobably shouldn't be calling my
stepmom one of my best friends.
She's somebody I'm really closeto but, to be honest, I'm
(26:01):
confiding in her, but she's notnecessarily confiding in me
Appropriately, so she shouldn'tbe telling me all the things
that are going on in hermarriage and in her life, so I'm
not her best friend.
I was able to pull back andrealize that it can be a
wonderful, healthy relationshipin our life, but she needs best
friends who can be at her leveland talk life with her, and I
need that at my level and weboth need that and then we can
(26:22):
have this wonderful, healthyrelationship.
That's what it is for eachother.
But it's getting clearer andclearer that children are not
our best friends.
They are a meaningfulrelationship.
They can be fulfilling, theycan be satisfying and we can be
really vulnerable and confide inthem a lot.
We need to be processing who weare, how we're changing, how
we're aging, how we're facingdeath, some of the regrets we
have of how we raise our kids.
(26:43):
That's the kind of stuff thatwe should be talking about, and
it's not necessarily alwaysappropriate to do with our kids.
So, yeah, we really want tobuild those relationships in our
lives.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Oh, that makes perfect sense.
So what advice do you give topeople when you speak?
Because I find at my age a lotof people are having
grandchildren.
Some are taking care of themthree and four days a week.
We're spread out much more thanwe ever have been.
I feel like I have a lot offriends in a lot of different
places.
New friends have blossomed,high school friends, old college
friends We've come closerbecause we don't have the burden
(27:12):
of little kids around us.
But I also feel like sometimesI'm tired, I don't want any more
new friends, I'm done.
And yet then you can feellonely.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, well, I think a lot of our loneliness.
So let's go back to lonelinessfor a moment.
Loneliness is our body's way ofsending us a message that we
have an unmet need, so similarto hunger or tired or thirst.
It does not mean something'swrong with us.
It does not mean we don't havefood or we don't have a bed or
we don't have water.
It means we need those thingsright now and we're not getting
it.
And so when we feel lonely andwe're not getting it, and so
(27:45):
when we feel lonely, it's notany judgment about us, it's just
simply a need.
Our body's sending us a messagethat we need connection right
now.
So the most healthy,emotionally intelligent response
we can have is like huh, whatkind of connection am I hungry
for?
Who do I want to connect with?
How do I want to connect?
What do I want to experience?
What do I want seen in my liferight now?
And then be able to ask thequestion of okay, so how can I
go build this up so that I haveaccess to these things?
So some of us are lonely About20, 25% of us are lonely in the
(28:09):
way that, like some people arehungry because they don't have
access to food, so about 20, 25%of us do not have a best friend
.
We don't have somebody thatwe're confiding in, and we need
to just build more relationships.
Most of us, though, are hungryand, to your point, we have
plenty of friends.
We have plenty of people in ourlives who are worn out.
Trying to keep in touch withthem.
We might have jobs or beingaround people where we're
(28:29):
actually peopled out, but we canstill be malnourished.
I mean, think about how you caneat plenty of calories and
still not be nourished.
I think a lot of us are doingthat socially.
We're eating so many socialcalories, but we still aren't
getting fulfilling ones For mostof us our real loneliness.
It doesn't mean we need to makemore friends.
We need to go deeper with thefriendships that we have.
My advice is always pull out aPost-it note.
(28:51):
Who are the three to six namesthat you want to prioritize?
Who are the people that, sixmonths from now, you would love
to be closer to?
You would love to be talking tothem more frequently.
You would love to have themwitnessing your life, knowing
what's going on in your life,going and doing fun things with
them.
Who are the three to five namesthat if you could pick, would
be those people.
And then I always go back tothe triangle and I go which of
(29:12):
these three wall, the size ofthe triangle would make the
biggest difference in each ofthese relationships?
Some of them have highvulnerability and positivity.
Like when we talk to them, wepick up right where we left off.
We love them, we get off thephone feeling so excited, so
grateful, so seen.
But we only talk to them everysix months and so that
(29:32):
relationship, while we can tellthem anything and update them,
we're not actually living lifein real time.
So we're missing the sense ofsupport in real time.
If we were to increase that,that would be the one missing
from that relationship, fromsome of our relationships.
We might have really goodpositivity and consistency.
We get together regularly atthe country club or at book club
or at the kids' school orchurch or our neighborhood, but
for lack of vulnerability theydon't really feel meaningful or
(29:53):
deep.
And so trying to figure out howwe can start deepening that so
we can go around and get zeroedin on how we could strengthen
each of those three to sixrelationships.
Now you are paying attentionand being intentional in these
friendships, you're prioritizingthem and guaranteed, six months
from now you're going to becloser to each other because
you're putting it where itmatters the most.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Gosh, I just get this so much because I'm just going
to share a couple of things.
This last month I was inMichigan, but I was also going
to a 50th high school reunionand there's a friend in town
that I went to high school withthat lives where I live.
She was flying to Ohio.
I was picking her up at theairport.
We were spending the weekendtogether with some other friends
.
Then she was driving back toMichigan with me.
(30:33):
We spent more consistent timetogether two hours in the car
from Cleveland to Youngstown,four hours in the car from
Youngstown to Ann Arbor, andboth of us looked at each other
at the end of this trip and wesaid we've known each other
since we were 16 years old andwe feel 400% closer than we've
(30:54):
ever felt.
Suddenly, this relationship wasso deep and so rich and yet
we'd been with each other allthese years.
So that does take time andenergy.
The other thing I want tomention is in one of your
podcasts you talked aboutcorrect me if I say it wrong,
but envy, jealousy that there'sfriends you might have and their
(31:15):
life looks so perfect to you.
You'll never be as good of them.
You'll never, and one of myfriends I was with this past
weekend is exactly that personand I thought to myself why do I
still love this friend so much?
And after your podcast I calledher and I said I want to tell
you why you're such a goodfriend.
I said you do this, you do that, you do this, but you always
(31:38):
take the time to say somethingnice about me.
You always take the time tovalidate who I am, and that
makes me not so envious orjealous or whatever.
It just deepens therelationship.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah beautiful.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Those are good examples.
I just have to figure out howto do this more locally.
I like what you said.
Write the three names down.
I think I'm almost going totalk openly with friends.
I want to have a deeperrelationship, Yep.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I mean for me.
I always find in my busy lifethat, like almost every single
one of my close relationships, Ican look back and say it
happened initially because wehad something that gave us more
frequency at some point.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
So for me, the easiest thing to do when I want
to make new friends is likestart a like Tuesday night girls
group at my house, and it'sjust every Tuesday night is open
and you just whatever systemyou put in place and we could
brainstorm systems for hours,like potluck, it's soup night,
it's takeout.
There's so many different waysto do it.
But what can we do to getourselves together on a regular
basis?
Is that starting to go for awalk every week?
Is it starting to have a goodmeetup for happy hour?
(32:36):
Is it talking on the phoneevery Wednesday at 1215?
Is it?
But whatever we schedule intoour lives is makes it so much
easier and the more frequency wehave at least initially, I mean
, I'll tell you those girlsgroups.
We used to all live local toeach other for a year and a half
, 20 years ago and then we allmoved away and we just decided
we were going to get togetheronce a year for a girls weekend
(32:58):
and I would tell you that myvulnerability was so high with
them, my love for them was sohigh, Like I had high positivity
, vulnerability, I would havesaid consistency on some level
at least we're still staying intouch and having these like long
weekends every year.
But it wasn't until thepandemic where we decided to add
in getting together on Sundaysfor a Zoom, and now we also do
Marco Polos throughout the week.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
What's a Marco Polo?
You mentioned that, and what isa Marco Polo?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
It's an app and you can do like video texts back and
forth.
What's so nice is the five ofus have a conversation that's
ongoing but it's asynchronous,and so I can listen to it when
I'm out on a walk and somebodyelse can, and I could then leave
them my own update.
Everyone can listen to it whenthey have their own time, which
is so nice, so we don't all haveto always be on at the same
time, but we have this ongoingconversation.
Whenever anything happens, oneof us gets on and says, oh, my
(33:46):
gosh, what a day.
And we're just like I knowwhat's going on in all my
girlfriend's lives, like today,this week, which is such a
different type of feelingsupported.
I mean, I know my girlfriendsbefore would have been there for
me if I needed them, but GirlsWeekend was filled with us
updating each other, and it's sodifferent versus doing it in
real time and getting thesupport in real time from each
(34:07):
other and feeling witnessed andsupported and seen now, not just
telling them afterward whathappened and how it ended up.
And I think most of us need toincrease that consistency in our
friendships, so figuring out toyour point how to do that
locally, and that's why I saypick three to five names and
figure out, choose that you'regoing to prioritize them.
That means you're going to sayno to other people in order to
say yes to these people.
(34:27):
You're going to do everythingyou can to kind of just increase
that consistency.
You're going to do what you did.
You're going to pick up thephone and call them and tell
them how amazing they are.
You're going to send gifts ontheir birthdays.
You're just going to say theseare people I'm zeroing in on and
I'm going to love well forthese next six months and build
this, build that relationship.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
That's great, I think .
The other one other thing I'mgoing to say before we wrap this
up is the other sort of hardthing that I find, and I think a
lot of my friends do.
We don't have a group.
All of my friends are, I wantto say, singular.
Maybe a couple of us will havea birthday lunch together.
It's not like we have fivecouples that are always going
out all the time because so muchhas changed.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
We had that when I was younger.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah, and so it is more that is more common.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
It is.
It is.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
We only have like a 50% chance of our two best
friends knowing each other now,or in liking each other and
spouses liking each other.
There's a lot more involved inall that.
So I like this Marco Polo ideaand I know I can do that with a
couple.
we have a couple of text threadsand I'm going to suggest all
those people that we try a MarcoPolo, introduce it to them.
Anyway, this has been terrific.
I think I love this triangleand I'm going to share that in
the notes, but I want you toleave our listeners with two or
(35:40):
three things that you hope theytake away from this conversation
.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, if we were to go back to the parent-child
relationship and the triangle, Iwould just say positivity is
like how do I say to my kid Iaccept you and I love you, and
just have that be the strongestmessage.
They hear that if they weretalking in Shasta's girls group,
what would they say about me?
Would they say I know my momjust absolutely thinks I'm the
coolest thing.
That's what they want, right?
(36:07):
So how can I just be somebodywho's making sure I'm showing up
as a affirming presence intheir life?
Consistency this is interesting.
If we have a bad pattern, ifwe've done something that's
created that estrangement, thenthe most important thing we can
hopefully do is have that kindof conversation that says I
acknowledge that bad pattern andI want to try to change that,
and so I want to try to changethat, and so I want the
opportunity to be given tocreate a new pattern, which
(36:28):
hopefully a child would give youthat choice to do, because
consistency means you can't justshow up and do the right thing
once or twice, like when we havea history of something.
We're not gonna notice it, butbeing able to say I want to
change that pattern and I'mgoing to try to do that Naming
that is so helpful to a child.
And then that vulnerability.
(36:50):
I think the challenge there isthe vulnerability, like we
talked about how you bevulnerable.
How can you share yourweaknesses and your failings and
your regrets and help createthat vulnerability that way
first, rather than thinkingabout how to speak into their
life.
I think these are really hard,challenging things, but this is
where I'm just like.
You have the wisdom of age, youhave the wisdom of this whole
life, and so you're in the mostbeautiful place to model to us,
to your children, the kind ofhumility, the kind of
(37:11):
self-awareness, the kind ofemotional intelligence that you
want us to have someday.
I think this is such a beautifulopportunity for parents
everywhere to just kind of say Iknow I didn't do perfect and I
don't need to be defensive aboutthat.
I'm going to hear them andthat's not the place I'm going
to cry and be defensive.
I'm going to go do that with myfriends and that's where I will
(37:33):
get my healing and stuff.
I'm going to let this child dowhat they need to say in order
to be seen and witnessed, andthen I am going to go have my
friends so that I can make surethat I'm seen and witnessed.
I think that just recognizingthat there's different roles,
the different relationships playdifferent roles, and not
putting all of that on our kidsor on our parents, I think is
really important.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
I love it.
Thank you so much.
This has been great.
I really appreciate you givingme this time.
I know you're so busy and Iknow I'm going to pick apart
this because I've got to share alot of these clips separately.
You're terrific.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you Well.
Thank you, thank you Well.
That's a wrap.
This conversation went quite alot differently than I had
anticipated, but I really thinkshe led it the way it should go.
(38:10):
We do have to learn to bebetter friends to our kids.
Think about that triangle andalso build stronger and better
friendships for ourselves.
There's no question about it.
I hope everyone got as muchfrom this as I did.
Thank you so much, shostan.
I will share everything abouther in my episode notes.
I loved this.
(38:31):
So more to come from Bite yourTongue.
Please remember to follow us onsocial media.
Go to our website atbiteyourtonguepodcastcom.
Email us at biteyourtongue atgmailcom.
I want to thank ConnieGorin-Fisher, our audio engineer
.
Please remember that we are nottherapists.
I get a lot of emails askingadvice.
I can't give advice.
(38:52):
I can send you to some peopleI've interviewed that might be
helpful, but I am not an expertin any way, shape or form.
So enjoy these last hot days ofsummer, although I don't know
when this episode is going todrop.
But remember, sometimes youjust have to bite your tongue.
Allow yourself to be vulnerable, you're bringing your
defenses down.
That's probably the biggestgift a parent can give because,
let's face it, you could doeverything perfect as a parent
and a kid is still going to haveissues because they were raised
by a perfect parent.
There's nothing you can dowhere you're not going to have
issues.
But I think the biggest giftthat we can do as parents is to
(00:24):
open up that conversation and tosay, like, was childhood hard
for you and what do you wish Ihad done more of, and what do
you wish I had done less of?
Where were the moments thatreally impacted you as a child
and where was I in that?
Be interested and not defensive.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hey everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue the podcast
.
Join me, your host, DeniseGorin, as we explore the ins and
outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt stories
and get timely adviceaddressing topics that matter
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
(01:08):
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when to
bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Welcome back to a brand newepisode of Bite your Tongue the
podcast.
It's been a whirlwind summer forme.
I've been traveling, soaking upfamily time and, best of all,
visiting my new grandson.
People always say grandchildrenare pure joy, but wow, I was
(01:30):
not prepared at all for how muchmy heart would expand.
But what's been extra specialis watching my husband with our
new grandbaby.
When our kids were younger heworked such long hours and
didn't have a lot of those babydays, but this time he got a
weekend all to himself with ourdaughter, son-in-law and the
baby, while I was off to my 50thhigh school reunion which is a
(01:55):
story in itself and when he camehome he looked at me and he
said Denise, that was the mostwonderful weekend of my life.
My heart just melted.
But anyway, speaking of that50th reunion, that brings me
right into today's topicfriendship.
50 years went by in a flash,but it was meaningful to
(02:15):
reconnect with so many people Ihadn't seen in decades.
But today we're not talkingabout old friends, we're talking
about new friendships.
We're not talking about oldfriends, we're talking about new
friendships, specifically thefriendships we can, and
sometimes can't, build with ouradult children.
Can we shift our relationshipsas they grow?
Can we repair what might bestrained?
(02:37):
There's so much to unpack here,which is why I'm thrilled to
welcome friendship expert ShastaNelson to help us dive into the
emotional heart of connectionand how it shapes our families.
If you've ever wondered how tostay close to your adult
children without smothering them, or how to navigate the tricky
dance between parenting andfriendship, you're in the right
(02:58):
place.
Shasta is one of today's mosttrusted voices on human
connection, a TEDx speaker, aleading friendship expert and an
author of three game-changingbooks on how our relationships.
Listen to this ourrelationships actually shape our
health, happiness and work.
Today, she's helping us applyher tools to one of the most
(03:20):
complex and evolvingrelationships of all the one
between parent and child.
But that's only the first halfof our conversation.
In the second part of theepisode, we shift our focus to
another connection challengemany of us face at this age
building new friendships as weget older.
So let's get started.
Welcome, shasta.
(03:40):
I thank you so much for joiningus and I'm so looking forward
to chatting with you.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
So tell me, how did you getinto this whole world of healthy
connections, strengtheningconnections and friendship?
Never knew people, reallystudied this or were experts in
this, so how did this begin foryou?
Can you tell our listeners alittle bit about that?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, I mean my first career, I have my master's of
divinity and I was a pastor.
Oh my gosh, I know.
So I go back to that every oncein a while because the origins
of that my world growing up,that was where community existed
right, we all had relationshipsand belonging and a sense of a
support system.
After 10 years of that, I endedup deciding that I really felt
much more excited about bringingcommunity out into the world.
(04:23):
Not necessarily fewer and fewerpeople are coming into churches
to get that and I really feltlike I wanted to take it out
broader than that.
So for me, I made the switchand did some life coaching and
in that space I just kepthearing this ongoing issue.
I would always ask like, whoare your friends and what are
they saying about this?
And people weren't hiring mefor friendship back then.
It was they were hiring me forcareer development or divorce
(04:44):
questions.
And I would always say like,who's supporting you and what
are they saying?
Knowing that that determined somuch of somebody's success with
whatever their goals were.
And I just kept hearing areoccurring theme with all these
amazing successful people onthat at that time a lot of women
and just saying I don't reallytalk to anyone about this or,
since the divorce, I reallydon't confide in this.
(05:06):
All these differentcircumstances that I was like,
wow, people are not confiding,they don't have that support
system in place, they're notbeing really vulnerable with
very many people.
So it was really initially 15years ago, trying to find
resources for people who werelooking for friendship, who I
felt needed friendship.
And it was in that space,denise, where I was like, wow,
there is not anybody talkingabout this, there is no really
(05:29):
good resources out there.
That turned into I started thefirst female friendship matching
website back in the day.
That turned into me matchingwomen up, doing retreats and
conferences and friendshipaccelerators and workshops and
blogs and books and all thethings.
But that's 15 years ago and inthat space, I've just been
researching, teaching.
I think, especially as women,we get so obsessed with
(05:53):
parent-child relationships andfamily relationships and or
spouse relationships and we justhaven't always paid attention
to the relationships thatactually impact our health and
happiness the most, which is ourfriendship.
So, yeah, I've just been inthat space and I'm passionate
about all healthy relationships,but yeah, I just feel like
taking a stand for friendshipshas been important.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I really agree with you.
As you're saying this, I'mthinking to myself.
I'm almost 70.
And what I hear over and overagain among my friends and we
could also have tons of friendsyou might look at someone and
say, oh my gosh, they have somany friends and yet that person
can still feel very lonely.
There's still a loneliness.
So I get that.
That's really important.
But right now we're going tostart off talking about our
(06:34):
adult children, because there'sso much estrangement nowadays
with parents and their adultchildren.
I think when you're sad andwhen you don't have a healthy
relationship with this personthat you loved and nurtured and
supported all your life, it'shard to step out and make new
friends because you don't feelgood about yourself.
So I want to start by helpingthem at least have some kind of
(06:58):
relationship that works withtheir adult kids.
And I want to go back to yourhistory, because I know you
don't do this podcast anymore,but you had it for a while.
Say it out loud, because friendintimacy or something.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Frentimacy like friendship, intimacy yeah right
so I couldn't quite.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And I was listening to a few episodes and during it
you said your relationship withyour own mother was a bit
prickly.
From a personal perspective,what steps you took to make it a
little un-prickly?
Is it just a healthyrelationship?
What is the relationship thatparents should strive for with
their adult kid?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So many questions in there.
Love it, yeah, I mean and Iwould go back to say I would
well we can get into this too ina second about like friendship,
as, like I would say, one ofthe most healthy things we can
do in relationship with our kidsis go build our friendships up
and have healthy friendships,and so I think sometimes the
answer is through ourfriendships, so having our
(07:52):
friends who can we can share ourbroken hearts with and also
have a reality check from ourfriends and people who can help
pull up mirrors, and so ourfriends can play such important
roles in this.
But yes, I definitely havepersonal experience in this
front in terms of a lot of mymoms, and my disagreements have
been political over a decade andI would say from my perspective
(08:15):
I would say I always feel likeshe's trying to change me.
I don't have a problem with ushaving different political views
, but if you feel like everyconversation you have, somebody
is doing little jabs or justkind of trying to like pretend
you're not smart enough and youdon't know all the details and
you need to hear the other side,it does something to you and it
keeps disintegrating thatrelationship.
We've never been estranged, butI certainly call less
(08:37):
frequently and I certainly findmyself, when she wants to come
visit, finding myself being like, oh, do I have the energy for
that?
One of my favorite stories thatI think about when I think about
my mom is I remember she cameto visit me when I was living in
San Francisco.
I was speaking at some women'sevent that night and so I asked
her if she wanted to come to mytalk and I was teaching the
(08:57):
friendship triangle, which wecan get into here a tiny bit.
But basically, when we look atall healthy relationships and
this is family relationships,team relationships, romantic
relationships, when we look atevery healthy relationship model
that's out there, there's threethings that are present in all
of them and we can use differentwords for them, but every
single thing we want in arelationship is a synonym of
(09:17):
these three things, an outcomeof these three things or an
illustration example of thesethree things.
Those three things arepositivity, consistency and
vulnerability.
So we can come back and divedeeper into that.
But we were driving home fromthis event and I remember
clearly we were coming acrossthe Golden Gate Bridge and my
mom said thank you for invitingme tonight.
She was being very affirmingabout my talk and she said so.
(09:39):
I think if we wanted tostrengthen our relationship, we
probably need to increase ourconsistency.
Like we don't interact enough,we don't see each other enough.
And I remember my stomach justgetting all tight inside and I
was so impressed with her fortrying to think through how we
could talk about ourrelationship and I really wanted
to meet her in that moment thatthere's a part of me that just
wanted to keep it easy and belike, yeah, that would be good.
(10:01):
And I realized that I needed toreally speak up too in that
moment and I said yes, yes, Isaid you're right, and I have to
be really honest with you.
For me, the starting point hasto be positivity.
It has to be positive emotions,because I can't just increase
consistency if it doesn't feelgood.
Like if it doesn't feel good tointeract with you, if every
(10:23):
time you're at my house or everytime we're on the phone, I get
off feeling bad we'repsychological animals I'm not
going to want to increase myconsistency with you.
So until we get that positivitydown to me, that's just
foundational.
When I go out and teachworkshops, the research shows
that we have to have fivepositive emotions for every
negative emotion to keep arelationship healthy.
And to me that's just huge,because the more stressors in a
(10:47):
relationship, the more badhistory there's been in the
relationship, the more timessomebody feels judged.
We have two choices to get thatratio in balance.
One is figure out how todecrease the negative, whether
that's like forgive each other,set boundaries, solve that
stressor, or the only otheroption is to increase the
positive emotions.
But when you're in arelationship where there's not
(11:07):
enough pleasant emotions likehope and joy and inspiration and
affirmation and acts of serviceand kindness and fun, and you
know all the things we want,then you just can't do the other
two requirements ofrelationships.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
So yeah, for me that was a turning point with my mom
I want to get into this triangle, but I want to ask you
something.
A lot of parents I talk to feellike the pressure's all on them
, they're walking on eggshells,they're saying all the positive
things, they're trying so hard.
What part does the adult kidplay in this?
And how do you build anauthentic friendship when the
parents always feeling like theyhave to say that sounds great,
(11:43):
or you did a wonderful job, orthe baby sleeping great,
whatever it might be?
Sometimes you feel like youaren't being honest.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, yeah, well.
So let's go back to thetriangle, because I think we
have to do that first, becauseeverything's from that right.
So the bottom of the triangle,at the foundation of every
healthy relationship, ispleasant emotions.
Let's be super clear that beingpositive does not mean always
saying positive things.
What you're describing a littlebit there might feel like toxic
positivity, like beingPollyanna, fake positivity.
(12:11):
It's being just an encouragingperson, and what we're looking
for here isn't always just beingpositive, it's how do both
people feel after thisinteraction.
So it's based upon feelings,and how loved and accepted does
this person feel, and vice versa.
So what we're measuring here is, like all of us, when we want
to be in relationship, we'relooking for a reward.
(12:33):
I mean, at the end of the day,we gravitate to the people, the
places, the things, theexperiences that leave us
feeling good, and we go intorelationships wanting to enjoy
them, and so there has to bemore of that than not.
And then the two sides up thetriangle we mentioned.
Consistency is one of them.
That's where trust is built,that's where it's not just
consistent time, but it'sconsistent behavior, which is
(12:54):
really key when we're talkingabout long-term relationships.
But this is where we log hours.
This is where we have sharedexperiences, this is where we
make memories together.
This is our time spent doingthings together or interacting.
Then the third requirement isvulnerability.
This is where we feel authentic.
Authentic and this is where wefeel like we know each other,
and this is where we feel likewe can share our opinions and
speak up a little bit.
(13:15):
All three of these have to worktogether and they go round and
round and round.
So when we have a positiveinteraction, we're more likely
to wanna do it again, which isconsistency.
When we interact, we hopefullyget to know each other a little
bit more, something that's goingon in each other's life, which
is a little bit of vulnerability.
In response to thatvulnerability, we need to get
off that phone call or leavethat event feeling good that we
(13:36):
shared what we shared.
So it needs to have positivity,which will make us want to
repeat the experience, whichwill help us get to know each
other, which will feel good.
Those three things just have tokeep happening.
In connection, what happenswith our parent-child
relationship so often is we haveso much history and so we can
do so much pain and hurt that wehave to heal or come at it and
(13:56):
realize that we're trying tocreate a different pattern, and
so, yes, what you're speaking ofis, I don't want anyone going
out there being fake.
I don't want anyone not beingvulnerable.
Vulnerable is a huge part ofour relationships and building
that, and you parents need tofeel seen just as much as a kid
needs to feel seen.
So that is so, so, so important.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
How does a parent feel seen and vulnerable in the
kind of relationship where youdon't want to feel like you're
judging the child?
Let's do a little example.
Let's talk about somethingprobably so many people deal
with.
Their daughter or son comeshome and they're dating someone
and you're just appalled at whothey're bringing home.
I know it's none of ourbusiness, this is who they've
selected.
But how can you be vulnerable?
(14:35):
I wouldn't even say to a goodfriend I don't like him at all
or I don't like her at all.
So how would you take thatconversation and run with it?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But see, I would say the same thing about my dearest
girlfriends.
I've had girlfriends who datesomebody that I'm just like, oh,
but it's not.
If they're not asking for myopinion, then that is not my
role to be.
That's not where.
That's not vulnerability.
Me just weighing in onsomebody's life, that's not
vulnerability.
If they're not asking for thatvulnerability is me saying, okay
, like in that situation, whatis appropriate to share in this
(15:04):
moment that helps me build myrelationship with this person
and support their life.
Questions, questions I wouldask, is what is it you like
about him?
Tell me what he does for you,how does he feed you and how is
that different than otherrelationships you've been in?
And they're only going to sharethose things with you if they
feel like we're not judging them, if we feel like the positive
emotions are there.
Our job in that moment is not toweigh in.
(15:25):
Our job in that moment is afriendship is about accepting
people's choices, no matter what, and trusting, 100% trust.
And I do this for my friends, Ido this for my adult
stepchildren, I do this formyself, my husband, all of us.
It's not my job to go be ajudge of everyone's life.
It's my job to say no matterwhat choices you make, even if
they end up quote being thewrong choice, I trust that life
(15:46):
is going to teach you what itneeds to teach you and I trust
that you're going to have theexperiences and the growth that
you need to have.
Even if this relationshipdoesn't make it, that's okay,
because you're going to become abetter person through it, and
my job is to go through lifewith you and be your biggest
cheerleader.
I want you to succeed and Itrust that you're going to grow,
so it's not my job to weigh inon that.
This is really interestingbecause I'm in a girls group
(16:07):
that we talk, we are best, best.
I heard all about that on here.
I know we talk every Sunday.
We talk every Sunday and I'vegot to tell you, out of the five
of us, we're all really what Iwould call healthy, committed to
personal growth, aware women,and I cannot tell you how much
of our conversations have to dowith our parents.
There's a couple people who Iwould say have been close to
(16:28):
being estranged to a parent.
There's one who is I mean,we're talking about that all the
time.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Are you able to share it all without diverging
anything?
What are the kinds of thingsthat parents do?
Because I remember talkingabout my parents and I'm sure my
adult kids are talking about meand my husband they probably
aren't talking about becausehe's so easy and easy to get
along with.
I'm a little bit moreopinionated.
What I aren't talking aboutbecause he's so easy and easy to
get along with, I'm a littlebit more opinionated.
What are the kinds of thingsyou would urge parents to stop?
(16:54):
Start, what would help themmake a healthier relationship?
And then I want to ask yousomething more about the
vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, I mean.
So I was going to say what's sovaluable about us having that
girls group and having thoseconversations is that's where
vulnerability is happening,that's where we can be honest
with each other so that we canthen show up.
One of my girlfriends is havinga really tough.
She doesn't think her dad.
So it goes both ways.
We judge right, mom doesn'tthink her dad should have a
surgery that he's going to have.
(17:20):
It's just so easy to feel likevery crunchy around this and,
yeah, and all of us having theseconversations and this just
happened where I was able tomirror to her just at some point
this is his decision to make.
What you don't want is for himto go into the surgery and you
being crunchy and something notgoing well.
Right, but as friends, that'sthe vulnerability.
We can do that with each other.
(17:40):
As parents, we should not beprocessing that with our kid.
We should have friends in ourlives.
That's where vulnerability ishappening, so that then we can
come back and say, okay, where'sthe place where I might be able
to speak into my parents' lifeand say, just FYI, this is
making me nervous, I'm not likeon board with this completely
and so, yeah, I can weigh in andbe vulnerable, but also
realizing it is not my job toweigh in and make a vote for his
life.
All of us are struggling withlike finding our ways to do that
(18:03):
.
If I were to say, across theboard, the biggest things are
just kids not feeling like theirparents.
See who they are and thecontributions they've made and
the healing they've done.
I feel like every person I knowjust wants their parents to see
them for who they are.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
And be proud of them, and you never quite.
For some reason, there'ssomething you don't quite feel,
and every time, as a parent ofadult children, you're a little
afraid to say anything that'sconcerning, because that's going
to take away from you feelinglike you're proud of them.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, yeah, and I think we just are so invested in
each other and we love eachother, and I think we just have
to reframe what it means to loveeach other.
We're not here to do lifeperfectly.
We're not here to be right allthe time.
I think it's coming back tojust holding it looser, and you
can always find something to beproud of them for and recognize
we don't do everything we saywe're going to do.
I was going to get acolonoscopy.
(18:53):
I asked my doctor for it.
It's been eight months and Iwas like I need to do that.
But it's opening a conversation.
All of us want to know somebodycares about us.
So I think it's try to find theways of saying how can I show
up in this space and besupportive as possible?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
and be supportive as possible.
That's really interesting.
So let's go back to friendshipand building it.
You were lucky.
Your mother came and listenedto you and heard the triangle
and said we need moreconsistency.
How can we, as parents,approach that kind of thing with
our adult children?
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, One of the other things.
I really applaud my dad.
I was going to switch to my dadhere for a second.
We were on a trip with my dad.
We were sitting down and hesaid to me when he goes, did I
say I love you enough to you asa kid?
What a beautiful, reflectivequestion to ask.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
And.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I was able to say I always knew you loved me.
But yeah, I don't know that yousaid it that much, but I knew
it.
And he's like, yeah, I thoughtabout that a lot, it.
And he's like, yeah, I'vethought about that a lot and I'm
really sorry for that.
I want to try to do thatdifferently.
I have so much respect, so muchrespect for my dad for asking a
question that allowed him to bereflective and allowed me to
(19:59):
share my experience in a way, Ithink one of the most important
things and this has got to bethe hardest thing for a parent
but it's let us share with youwhat hurt us, and that doesn't
mean that we are blaming you.
It doesn't mean that you didn'tdo the best you could do.
That's vulnerability.
Vulnerability isn't showing upand telling somebody what you
think they should do with theirlife.
Vulnerability is actually likehow have I impacted you in a way
(20:22):
that I might not be aware?
That's real vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
That's a good question.
How have I impact you in a waythat I might not be aware?
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, and to be, open enough to receive that, which
vulnerable means lettingsomebody attack you in theory,
right, like you're vulnerable,you're bringing your defenses
down, and I think that'sprobably the biggest gift a
parent can give because, let'sface it, you could do everything
perfect as a parent and a kidis still going to have issues
because they were raised by aperfect parent.
There's nothing you can dowhere you're not going to have
(20:51):
issues.
My girls group we kind of jokeabout this.
They all have kids, their own,and it's terrible to think that
20 years from now, our kids aregoing to be sitting around
griping about us the way we areour parents.
But I think the biggest giftthat we can do as parents is to
open up that conversation and tosay, like, what ways was I, was
childhood hard for you and whatdo you wish I had done more of
and what do you wish I had doneless of?
Where were the moments thatreally impacted you as a child
(21:13):
and where was I in that?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Be interested and not defensive and I was going to
say you can't say, when they sayit say I did not, I tried to
blah, blah, blah.
Then you immediately say I'mglad you're telling me this.
This is helpful to me.
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
And then you're just like well, I am so sorry I was
not able to be there in thatmoment for you.
I mean my I've had so manyhealing conversations with my
parents in the last couple ofyears.
I am so grateful to them andit's helpful for me if, as soon
as they become vulnerable if youwill I immediately am just like
no, no, I totally understand.
I mean, you guys are just likewe've become the graceful
parents of people when we seeyou hurting.
(21:50):
But we need to know that wedon't feel seen if we don't feel
like our parents canacknowledge the things that
impacted us, and I think thatthat's just something is always
going to be there until a parentcan say I want to know those
things, I'm open to hearingthose things, and kind of create
the space for that and be asafe.
For, if you like, to your point, if you're defensive in that
(22:10):
space, you lose trust,Everything Very hard to do it
again and you'll have to comeback another time and you'll
have to be like I did not dowell last time, so sorry, but
you have to own that and youhave to say I am so sorry, I
really do want to know this andI really am wanting a
relationship with you, and Ireally do.
(22:31):
You have to.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Then really own that so much of this is so true.
I want to get into thefriendship for us because truly
I think if you have good friendsaround you and keep your life
engaged, you're less dependenton the relationship.
I was just with a friend lastweek and her daughter must have
called 10 times in a day and I'mlike, oh gosh, we will text a
(22:53):
couple times a week and thefuller my life is, the less I
feel like I have to depend on mykids.
Rewind a minute.
I want to get to the pointwhere we have to develop our
lives and our friendships inorder to have fuller lives and
not so dependent on our kids.
I interviewed someone.
It was a professor from Cornell.
(23:15):
He wrote a book aboutestrangement and he told me
there's something calledintergenerational stake.
The parent's stake in therelationship is so much greater
because they've raised them froma baby, they've invested
emotionally, monetarily, everykind, so they just they want to
still have this relationship.
The child's stake they lovetheir parents but they're
developing their own life.
They now have a greater stakein this family that they're
(23:37):
developing.
They have a new immediatefamily and that's hard for many
parents of adult kids to take aback seat and say you know what
I'm second now.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you're naming it.
I would say this is the higherpriority for all of us is to
focus on building our ownfriendships and our own
relationships.
It can be so easy and I go backto where I started in
friendship.
We get so obsessed with ourparent-child relationships and
our romantic relationships, butthe research continues to show
that married women with kidsdon't live longer, they are on
(24:10):
more antidepressants, they don'tmake as much money.
I mean, marriage and motheringis not that great for our health
and we're hopefully changingthat the way we're doing life
differently now.
But the truth of the matter isthe most important relationships
to our health and to ourhappiness are our friendships.
And I often say, when you justthink about friendship, I often
say, if you're feeling resentfulfor one person not really being
there for you, that's not asign that that person is failing
(24:33):
.
It's a sign that you have notbuilt up the support system that
you need.
And what do you mean by that?
You need more relationships inyour life.
Yeah, and I think so.
I mean, for example, I think ofsome of my best friends, and I
remember I was on book tour whenone of my girlfriends got like
a notice to move out of herapartment or eviction notice or
whatever.
And I'm like on book tour and Ican like kind of text and
sympathize but like I can't bethere and I'm so grateful I was
(24:55):
not her only close friend andthat she had other friends that
she could rely on and be there.
We often get our feelings sohurt in friendships If somebody
dies or we're moving and theydon't come help us.
We can ask for things, we cantry to build better, more
supportive relationships, butthe truth of the matter is all
of us need a variety ofdifferent relationships in our
lives that we can rely on.
And I think so often,especially in situations we're
(25:19):
talking about here, we put somuch emphasis on this one child
that it's not only affecting ourself-esteem but of course we're
going to show up withresentment because we're not
getting what we want from thatrelationship.
And, to your point, if we canbuild healthy, meaningful,
supportive relationships in ourlives, those are our friendships
.
Then we have those.
We're going to be able tomanage that parent-child
relationship better, but we'regoing to have so much more of
the things that we need.
(25:40):
My definition of a healthyrelationship is where two people
both feel seen in a safe andsatisfying way, and that's an
element we can do with ourparents for sure.
When I studied friendship moreand more and more, I got to a
place where I realized Iprobably shouldn't be calling my
stepmom one of my best friends.
She's somebody I'm really closeto but, to be honest, I'm
(26:01):
confiding in her, but she's notnecessarily confiding in me
Appropriately, so she shouldn'tbe telling me all the things
that are going on in hermarriage and in her life, so I'm
not her best friend.
I was able to pull back andrealize that it can be a
wonderful, healthy relationshipin our life, but she needs best
friends who can be at her leveland talk life with her, and I
need that at my level and weboth need that and then we can
(26:22):
have this wonderful, healthyrelationship.
That's what it is for eachother.
But it's getting clearer andclearer that children are not
our best friends.
They are a meaningfulrelationship.
They can be fulfilling, theycan be satisfying and we can be
really vulnerable and confide inthem a lot.
We need to be processing who weare, how we're changing, how
we're aging, how we're facingdeath, some of the regrets we
have of how we raise our kids.
(26:43):
That's the kind of stuff thatwe should be talking about, and
it's not necessarily alwaysappropriate to do with our kids.
So, yeah, we really want tobuild those relationships in our
lives.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Oh, that makes perfect sense.
So what advice do you give topeople when you speak?
Because I find at my age a lotof people are having
grandchildren.
Some are taking care of themthree and four days a week.
We're spread out much more thanwe ever have been.
I feel like I have a lot offriends in a lot of different
places.
New friends have blossomed,high school friends, old college
friends We've come closerbecause we don't have the burden
(27:12):
of little kids around us.
But I also feel like sometimesI'm tired, I don't want any more
new friends, I'm done.
And yet then you can feellonely.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, well, I think a lot of our loneliness.
So let's go back to lonelinessfor a moment.
Loneliness is our body's way ofsending us a message that we
have an unmet need, so similarto hunger or tired or thirst.
It does not mean something'swrong with us.
It does not mean we don't havefood or we don't have a bed or
we don't have water.
It means we need those thingsright now and we're not getting
it.
And so when we feel lonely andwe're not getting it, and so
(27:45):
when we feel lonely, it's notany judgment about us, it's just
simply a need.
Our body's sending us a messagethat we need connection right
now.
So the most healthy,emotionally intelligent response
we can have is like huh, whatkind of connection am I hungry
for?
Who do I want to connect with?
How do I want to connect?
What do I want to experience?
What do I want seen in my liferight now?
And then be able to ask thequestion of okay, so how can I
go build this up so that I haveaccess to these things?
So some of us are lonely About20, 25% of us are lonely in the
(28:09):
way that, like some people arehungry because they don't have
access to food, so about 20, 25%of us do not have a best friend
.
We don't have somebody thatwe're confiding in, and we need
to just build more relationships.
Most of us, though, are hungryand, to your point, we have
plenty of friends.
We have plenty of people in ourlives who are worn out.
Trying to keep in touch withthem.
We might have jobs or beingaround people where we're
(28:29):
actually peopled out, but we canstill be malnourished.
I mean, think about how you caneat plenty of calories and
still not be nourished.
I think a lot of us are doingthat socially.
We're eating so many socialcalories, but we still aren't
getting fulfilling ones For mostof us our real loneliness.
It doesn't mean we need to makemore friends.
We need to go deeper with thefriendships that we have.
My advice is always pull out aPost-it note.
(28:51):
Who are the three to six namesthat you want to prioritize?
Who are the people that, sixmonths from now, you would love
to be closer to?
You would love to be talking tothem more frequently.
You would love to have themwitnessing your life, knowing
what's going on in your life,going and doing fun things with
them.
Who are the three to five namesthat if you could pick, would
be those people.
And then I always go back tothe triangle and I go which of
(29:12):
these three wall, the size ofthe triangle would make the
biggest difference in each ofthese relationships?
Some of them have highvulnerability and positivity.
Like when we talk to them, wepick up right where we left off.
We love them, we get off thephone feeling so excited, so
grateful, so seen.
But we only talk to them everysix months and so that
(29:32):
relationship, while we can tellthem anything and update them,
we're not actually living lifein real time.
So we're missing the sense ofsupport in real time.
If we were to increase that,that would be the one missing
from that relationship, fromsome of our relationships.
We might have really goodpositivity and consistency.
We get together regularly atthe country club or at book club
or at the kids' school orchurch or our neighborhood, but
for lack of vulnerability theydon't really feel meaningful or
(29:53):
deep.
And so trying to figure out howwe can start deepening that so
we can go around and get zeroedin on how we could strengthen
each of those three to sixrelationships.
Now you are paying attentionand being intentional in these
friendships, you're prioritizingthem and guaranteed, six months
from now you're going to becloser to each other because
you're putting it where itmatters the most.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Gosh, I just get this so much because I'm just going
to share a couple of things.
This last month I was inMichigan, but I was also going
to a 50th high school reunionand there's a friend in town
that I went to high school withthat lives where I live.
She was flying to Ohio.
I was picking her up at theairport.
We were spending the weekendtogether with some other friends
.
Then she was driving back toMichigan with me.
(30:33):
We spent more consistent timetogether two hours in the car
from Cleveland to Youngstown,four hours in the car from
Youngstown to Ann Arbor, andboth of us looked at each other
at the end of this trip and wesaid we've known each other
since we were 16 years old andwe feel 400% closer than we've
(30:54):
ever felt.
Suddenly, this relationship wasso deep and so rich and yet
we'd been with each other allthese years.
So that does take time andenergy.
The other thing I want tomention is in one of your
podcasts you talked aboutcorrect me if I say it wrong,
but envy, jealousy that there'sfriends you might have and their
(31:15):
life looks so perfect to you.
You'll never be as good of them.
You'll never, and one of myfriends I was with this past
weekend is exactly that personand I thought to myself why do I
still love this friend so much?
And after your podcast I calledher and I said I want to tell
you why you're such a goodfriend.
I said you do this, you do that, you do this, but you always
(31:38):
take the time to say somethingnice about me.
You always take the time tovalidate who I am, and that
makes me not so envious orjealous or whatever.
It just deepens therelationship.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah beautiful.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Those are good examples.
I just have to figure out howto do this more locally.
I like what you said.
Write the three names down.
I think I'm almost going totalk openly with friends.
I want to have a deeperrelationship, Yep.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I mean for me.
I always find in my busy lifethat, like almost every single
one of my close relationships, Ican look back and say it
happened initially because wehad something that gave us more
frequency at some point.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
So for me, the easiest thing to do when I want
to make new friends is likestart a like Tuesday night girls
group at my house, and it'sjust every Tuesday night is open
and you just whatever systemyou put in place and we could
brainstorm systems for hours,like potluck, it's soup night,
it's takeout.
There's so many different waysto do it.
But what can we do to getourselves together on a regular
basis?
Is that starting to go for awalk every week?
Is it starting to have a goodmeetup for happy hour?
(32:36):
Is it talking on the phoneevery Wednesday at 1215?
Is it?
But whatever we schedule intoour lives is makes it so much
easier and the more frequency wehave at least initially, I mean
, I'll tell you those girlsgroups.
We used to all live local toeach other for a year and a half
, 20 years ago and then we allmoved away and we just decided
we were going to get togetheronce a year for a girls weekend
(32:58):
and I would tell you that myvulnerability was so high with
them, my love for them was sohigh, Like I had high positivity
, vulnerability, I would havesaid consistency on some level
at least we're still staying intouch and having these like long
weekends every year.
But it wasn't until thepandemic where we decided to add
in getting together on Sundaysfor a Zoom, and now we also do
Marco Polos throughout the week.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
What's a Marco Polo?
You mentioned that, and what isa Marco Polo?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
It's an app and you can do like video texts back and
forth.
What's so nice is the five ofus have a conversation that's
ongoing but it's asynchronous,and so I can listen to it when
I'm out on a walk and somebodyelse can, and I could then leave
them my own update.
Everyone can listen to it whenthey have their own time, which
is so nice, so we don't all haveto always be on at the same
time, but we have this ongoingconversation.
Whenever anything happens, oneof us gets on and says, oh, my
(33:46):
gosh, what a day.
And we're just like I knowwhat's going on in all my
girlfriend's lives, like today,this week, which is such a
different type of feelingsupported.
I mean, I know my girlfriendsbefore would have been there for
me if I needed them, but GirlsWeekend was filled with us
updating each other, and it's sodifferent versus doing it in
real time and getting thesupport in real time from each
(34:07):
other and feeling witnessed andsupported and seen now, not just
telling them afterward whathappened and how it ended up.
And I think most of us need toincrease that consistency in our
friendships, so figuring out toyour point how to do that
locally, and that's why I saypick three to five names and
figure out, choose that you'regoing to prioritize them.
That means you're going to sayno to other people in order to
say yes to these people.
(34:27):
You're going to do everythingyou can to kind of just increase
that consistency.
You're going to do what you did.
You're going to pick up thephone and call them and tell
them how amazing they are.
You're going to send gifts ontheir birthdays.
You're just going to say theseare people I'm zeroing in on and
I'm going to love well forthese next six months and build
this, build that relationship.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
That's great, I think .
The other one other thing I'mgoing to say before we wrap this
up is the other sort of hardthing that I find, and I think a
lot of my friends do.
We don't have a group.
All of my friends are, I wantto say, singular.
Maybe a couple of us will havea birthday lunch together.
It's not like we have fivecouples that are always going
out all the time because so muchhas changed.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
We had that when I was younger.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah, and so it is more that is more common.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
It is.
It is.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
We only have like a 50% chance of our two best
friends knowing each other now,or in liking each other and
spouses liking each other.
There's a lot more involved inall that.
So I like this Marco Polo ideaand I know I can do that with a
couple.
we have a couple of text threadsand I'm going to suggest all
those people that we try a MarcoPolo, introduce it to them.
Anyway, this has been terrific.
I think I love this triangleand I'm going to share that in
the notes, but I want you toleave our listeners with two or
(35:40):
three things that you hope theytake away from this conversation
.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, if we were to go back to the parent-child
relationship and the triangle, Iwould just say positivity is
like how do I say to my kid Iaccept you and I love you, and
just have that be the strongestmessage.
They hear that if they weretalking in Shasta's girls group,
what would they say about me?
Would they say I know my momjust absolutely thinks I'm the
coolest thing.
That's what they want, right?
(36:07):
So how can I just be somebodywho's making sure I'm showing up
as a affirming presence intheir life?
Consistency this is interesting.
If we have a bad pattern, ifwe've done something that's
created that estrangement, thenthe most important thing we can
hopefully do is have that kindof conversation that says I
acknowledge that bad pattern andI want to try to change that,
and so I want to try to changethat, and so I want the
opportunity to be given tocreate a new pattern, which
(36:28):
hopefully a child would give youthat choice to do, because
consistency means you can't justshow up and do the right thing
once or twice, like when we havea history of something.
We're not gonna notice it, butbeing able to say I want to
change that pattern and I'mgoing to try to do that Naming
that is so helpful to a child.
And then that vulnerability.
(36:50):
I think the challenge there isthe vulnerability, like we
talked about how you bevulnerable.
How can you share yourweaknesses and your failings and
your regrets and help createthat vulnerability that way
first, rather than thinkingabout how to speak into their
life.
I think these are really hard,challenging things, but this is
where I'm just like.
You have the wisdom of age, youhave the wisdom of this whole
life, and so you're in the mostbeautiful place to model to us,
to your children, the kind ofhumility, the kind of
(37:11):
self-awareness, the kind ofemotional intelligence that you
want us to have someday.
I think this is such a beautifulopportunity for parents
everywhere to just kind of say Iknow I didn't do perfect and I
don't need to be defensive aboutthat.
I'm going to hear them andthat's not the place I'm going
to cry and be defensive.
I'm going to go do that with myfriends and that's where I will
(37:33):
get my healing and stuff.
I'm going to let this child dowhat they need to say in order
to be seen and witnessed, andthen I am going to go have my
friends so that I can make surethat I'm seen and witnessed.
I think that just recognizingthat there's different roles,
the different relationships playdifferent roles, and not
putting all of that on our kidsor on our parents, I think is
really important.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
I love it.
Thank you so much.
This has been great.
I really appreciate you givingme this time.
I know you're so busy and Iknow I'm going to pick apart
this because I've got to share alot of these clips separately.
You're terrific.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you Well.
Thank you, thank you Well.
That's a wrap.
This conversation went quite alot differently than I had
anticipated, but I really thinkshe led it the way it should go.
(38:10):
We do have to learn to bebetter friends to our kids.
Think about that triangle andalso build stronger and better
friendships for ourselves.
There's no question about it.
I hope everyone got as muchfrom this as I did.
Thank you so much, shostan.
I will share everything abouther in my episode notes.
I loved this.
(38:31):
So more to come from Bite yourTongue.
Please remember to follow us onsocial media.
Go to our website atbiteyourtonguepodcastcom.
Email us at biteyourtongue atgmailcom.
I want to thank ConnieGorin-Fisher, our audio engineer
.
Please remember that we are nottherapists.
I get a lot of emails askingadvice.
I can't give advice.
(38:52):
I can send you to some peopleI've interviewed that might be
helpful, but I am not an expertin any way, shape or form.
So enjoy these last hot days ofsummer, although I don't know
when this episode is going todrop.
But remember, sometimes youjust have to bite your tongue.
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