August 22, 2025 • 52 mins
This is one funny episode.
Today we interview Susan Engel, a professor of psychology at Williams College and the author of the New York Times Article: When They're Grown, The Real Pain Begins.
Joining Denise as co-host is a dear friend Val Haller. Val is the mother of four boys, very similar to the ages of Susan's boys when she wrote this article, so she is our perfect co-host.
Susan takes us through her journey when she wrote the article in 2012 and her three boys were 28, 25 and 19. Today, ten years later, she is a grandmother with two of these three boys married and living right next door. Can you imagine?Some things we talk about:
- Reconceptualizing the parent-adult child relationship as a relationship rather than a job that can be perfected
- The value of passing on positive comments between family members while avoiding sharing criticisms
- Finding comfort in knowing your adult children continue to grow, develop resilience, and build support networks beyond you
- The importance of humility and acknowledging your own parenting mistakes
Recognizing when to simply listen rather than trying to fix your adult child's problems
About Val Haller - our co-host:
Val lives in Chicago and is passionate about music. She is the founder/CEO of the music website Valslist.com. She launched it about 10 years ago (when her nest was empty) and it is the first music site specifically created to help busy adults keep up with new music. Check it out.
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send all ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com. Remeber to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Support US! Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select SUPPORT US. You can buy a "virtual" cup of coffee.
Everyday Texans. Extraordinary Stories.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
There's one little piece that I've learned over the
years that helps me, which isone thing you can do is pass on
good things.
So when one of my kidsappreciates or says something
wonderful about the other, I'mhappy to pass that on, because
that can only be good, and theymay not be expressing those
things to each other.
How can it ever hurt to hearthat someone in your family
(00:27):
loved you or appreciatedsomething you did or felt loved
by you and sometimes you can adda little sugar to things by
doing that.
It can only be good.
The one thing that you nevershould do is pass on bad things.
I just don't see how that everis good.
And when your kids are grown, Imean you guys are the ones that
were emphasizing the power ofstepping back and stepping aside
(00:51):
and creating some distance.
And in this case, this is oneplace where I would
wholeheartedly agree with you.
They have to get good atworking out their relationships
with one another.
So, unless you're sayingsomething that makes them feel
better about each other, saynothing.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Hello everyone, I'm Denise Gorin.
Welcome to Bite your Tongue,the podcast.
Thanks for joining us as wespeak with experts, authors,
parents and even young adults toexplore the transition from
parenting our young children tobuilding healthy relationships
with our now adults.
Hopefully we'll grow together,learn about ourselves, our young
(01:38):
adults and, of course, when tobite our tongues.
We are so happy you're with us,so let's get started.
Welcome to another episode ofBite your Tongue, the podcast.
So our dear talented audioengineer, connie Fisher, was
strolling through the internetand came across this wonderful
(02:01):
New York Times story by WilliamsCollege psychologist, susan
Engel.
The title just drew her in whenthey're grown, the real pain
begins.
We decided to reach out and seeif, by chance, susan would chat
with us.
She was actually interviewedabout this story by Savannah
Guthrie on the Today Show in2012.
Her then three young adult boyswere 28, 25, and 19.
(02:26):
Now they're 38, 35, and 29.
We were wondering how has thischanged for Susan, what her
journey's been, and we'd like tocatch up with her now.
The article's great and we'lltalk about parts of it as we go
through this episode, but Iwanted first to share one thing
Susan's family friend andneighbor, cora Stevens, said to
(02:49):
Susan when she first brought herfirstborn son home at three
weeks old, cora bounced Jacob onher knee and turned to Susan
and said when they're little,they sit on your lap.
When they're big, they sit onyour heart.
So what do you think listeners,do we agree?
Anyway, ellen couldn't be withme today, so I asked a good
friend, val Haller, to co-hostwith me.
(03:09):
Val lives in Chicago and we'vebeen friends since middle school
.
We both grew up in Ohio.
I asked Val to join me becauseshe has four boys and they are
just about the same age asSusan's boys when she wrote the
story and you should know, whileraising children, val was my
(03:32):
go-to mother for parentingquestions.
After raising her boys, valdeveloped her passion for music
into a business.
She launched ValsListcom andwith her remarkable ear she
finds great new music forboomers.
I have to say her playlists areamazing.
I play them all the time,especially her engaging dinner
party playlist.
Every time I play it my friendsask me where'd you get that
playlist?
But anyway, we'll talk aboutthat later, but I had to mention
(03:53):
it because I think listenerswill love her site.
So welcome Val.
I'm so glad to have you.
Why don't you introduceyourself and then introduce
Susan, and we'll get started.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Hi, denise, thank you so much for inviting me to join
the conversation today.
I mean, heaven knows, we'vespent millions of hours talking
about parenting together overthe years, and thanks for
mentioning my music business,but my first identity is being a
parent and I just want to sayI'm truly honored to be here
because I love your podcast somuch.
I'm rather obsessed with it.
(04:24):
You just bring such goodquality content to us and this
should have been invented a longtime ago, denise.
But it's a great resource forthose of us who have grown up
kids, because we think the hardwork is done because raising
little ones is hard work andjust when we sit back and relax
and try to just enjoy the fruitsof our labor and say they're
launched and now I can relax,then the big kid phone calls
(04:45):
start coming with bigger crisesand bigger heartbreak, and
that's when our hearts take over.
But that's not the best tool touse in this approach.
So it's such an important topicand, susan, I'm so happy to
meet you.
I know I'm going to learn a tontoday.
Now let's get started.
I am so excited to introduce ourguest, dr Susan Engel.
(05:08):
Susan is a senior lecturer inpsychology, founding director of
the program in teaching atWilliams College.
She currently serves as theWilliams College Gardeno Scholar
, a position that creates andpromotes opportunities for
students to stretch beyond whatthey are familiar with.
She is also one of the foundersof an experimental school in
New York State, where she servedas educational advisor for 18
(05:30):
years, and she has authorednumerous books.
But today we are talking to herabout her three sons, jake,
will and Sam.
We're anxious to learn abouthow things have changed since
she wrote her attention-grabbingarticle in 2012.
Welcome, susan.
Please feel free to tell usanything else about yourself
we've missed and again, thankyou for joining us.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Hi, thank you.
Thank you so much for thatlovely introduction.
What did you miss?
Well, one slight correction I'mactually done with my role as
the Gaudino Scholar.
It's a three-year role and Ipassed it on to someone else a
while ago.
Well, what can I tell you thatyou missed?
You couldn't possibly haveknown this, but I have two very
(06:11):
small grandchildren.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
That was going to be one of my first questions.
So, in this time, do you haveany grandchildren?
I was going to ask that at thevery top of the hour.
Well, there you go.
So that's wonderful, and dothey live near?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
you at all.
Oh boy, oh boy.
Do they ever?
They live right next door to me, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Oh, that's not fair.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So two of my three sons live right next door and
for the moment they actuallylive in the same house.
It used to be mymother-in-law's house when she
was alive and their wives livedthere with them, and about two
and a half years ago they eachhad a little baby.
So two little kids who arecousins live right next door to
(06:49):
me.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Okay, Well this is too good to be true, too good to
be true.
Let's talk about thedifficulties of raising adult
children, not the what do I wantto say?
The fairy tale that you'reliving right now.
Anyway, so you wrote thisarticle in 2013 and I went
through all of the comments.
I was just reading them, likethe comments are like a book in
(07:12):
itself and I know this articlehas gotten so much attention.
You know, some of the commentsare very painful and some of
them just say listen, your jobis let go love them, leave them
that sort of thing.
Why do you think it got so muchattention?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Well, I asked myself that a lot after the piece came
out, because I was totallyflabbergasted by the volume and
intensity of people's responsesand I should say that I still
get emails about it regularlyand I think the answer is
because so many parents struggleso much as their kids grow up
(07:48):
to figure out what their role is, to figure out how to manage
their own feelings, to figureout how to navigate the world of
adult children, and I thinkthere has been very little
written or published about this.
It's a reason why I think yourpodcast is such a great idea.
When I was experiencing thedifficulties I described in that
(08:09):
piece, I felt totally alone andmy sense which was oddly blind
of me was that every friend Ihad was having smooth sailing.
It's worth getting intograduate school, getting jobs,
finding a life mate.
Kids were getting into graduateschool, getting jobs, finding a
life mate, going off andsetting up their wonderful
independent life.
And I thought I was the onlyone whose kids were struggling
(08:32):
and the only one who felt kindof punched in the stomach by the
unexpected aspects of theexperience, because I had
already been a mom.
Obviously, by definition, I hadalready been a mom for 20
something years, so it was justtotally new to me, and it never
occurred to me that others weregoing through the same thing.
When I began to get theresponses, I realized that lots
(08:55):
I would say almost everybodygoes through it, and they just
don't know that everybody elseis doing that too.
They think they're alone.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
That's a great.
Yeah, I have have one question.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Okay, go ahead Val.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I think what happens too is our role changes.
But we weren't warned aboutthat, you know, we weren't
warned that at some point, whenthey become adults, our whole
approach probably needs to shiftand we transfer from being
fixers, where we either do itfor them or show them how to do
it, to something reallydifferent, like we might just
(09:29):
listen more.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I think it's true, but I'm not sure.
I'll just speak for myself here.
Oh, and a few others.
I'll give you an example.
That warning wouldn't havehelped me.
Yeah, so my mom is 97.
And this morning I was tellingher about the fact that I was
going to be doing this podcastand she was reminding me that
about 30 years ago so when I wasin my 30s my father, who's now
(09:54):
dead, and they were divorced, soshe was sort of speaking at a
distance.
She said remember when your dadwanted to write a book about
parenting grown upup kids?
And I do remember that he saidthat he wasn't a writer, so I
made fun of him.
When she said this, I said well, he wasn't a writer, so how
would he have done that?
My point is that I do rememberhim bringing that up, and I
(10:17):
think he said it to me as anindirect way to say I'm
struggling with how to be yourdad now that you're a grown-up.
I don't think I heard that forwhat it was, and so I'm
struggling with how to be yourdad now that you're grown up.
I don't think I heard that forwhat it was, and so I'm not sure
that you can warn people,because it's very hard to
imagine that before you've gonethrough it.
I think it might be somethingthat you have to begin to go
(10:38):
through.
I mean, maybe I'm wrong aboutthis.
Maybe if we heard people talkabout it more when we were
younger we'd be more ready forit.
But I know that people warnedme of all kinds of things before
I had my first child and I paidno attention.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Well, don't you think we all think we're going to do
it better and we all think we'regoing to?
You know we're going to.
That's not true.
We're going to handle it better, even when we have our children
as babies.
We think we're going to do abetter job than our parents did
and in the end we have all thesame struggles that our parents
had.
It's interesting that youbrought up the generational
thing, because I wonderedwhether some of this is
(11:14):
generational.
Like, did our parents have thissort of thing?
We're so much more connected toour kids, even when they're
further away, so it's harder todisconnect.
Do you think there's any truthin that right now?
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You know, I don't know about that.
I'm going to give a complicatedanswer.
First of all, only some peoplehistorically were separated from
their kids.
After all, in most parts of theworld people live very close to
the other members of theirfamily and for most of history
that's been true.
So the idea of the grown up faraway, separate kid is sort of a
(11:58):
modern Western middle classmyth, I think.
And honestly, even before therewas texting there were
telephones.
I come from a family that wasvery close and my whole life, I
mean, I remember when I was incollege and I was living with my
boyfriend already who's now myhusband I could tell you what
(12:22):
every single person in mycomplicated, spread apart family
was reading.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Oh my.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
God, my parents were divorced.
I had three siblings.
I always knew what noveleverybody else was reading, so
that's because we were very intouch and involved with each
other.
So I don't know.
I think that and the reason Ibring that up is one thing that
you've mentioned that I justdon't even accept is the idea
(12:47):
that somehow you should stepaway when your kids are grown up
.
I don't know why that's a goodthing People need to be close to
each other and I don't see whyit's better to be close to
somebody else than someone inyour family.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Susan, I have one quick question about social
media.
Yeah, my question's a littlebit different about that.
It's not so much that we'reconnected or moms talk to their
daughters daily, even whenthey're 25, and that kind of
thing.
One thing that really worriesme is that social media has
almost become the youngergeneration's standard of
(13:23):
everything.
It's standard of advice, it'sstandard of what the norm is.
It's almost groupthink, and Iused to really try to tell my
kids don't groupthink, you'llget stuck.
So that's the piece that Iworry about.
They tend to go to that first,and I'm a grandmother too and
I'm so close to my kids, mygrandkids, but I worry that
maybe mom's advice orgrandmother's advice, even about
(13:45):
parenting, might come second.
What do you think Might comesecond?
Is that what you said Might bethe second thing that they'll
listen to instead of, you know,the first thing?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Well, yeah, it might be.
I mean, look, that too hasalways been a little more
complicated than people think,because the advice that you get
from your mom or yourgrandmother comes loaded with
your own irritations andresentments and evaluation of
how they brought you up, andsocieties have very interesting,
(14:16):
complicated ways of passingdown child-rearing wisdom.
So in some cultures it'sassumed that you will do things
the way that the elders in yourcommunity or your neighborhood
do them.
And in other communities,certainly in modern Western life
look at Dr Spock A wholegeneration, certainly my mom,
(14:37):
when she was young, turned to DrSpock before she turned to her
mother, and she felt superior toher mother, like she was
reading something that was basedin science.
That's a really good point.
So that too is not totally new.
I think one thing that you bringup that I do worry about you
read about this all the time inthe news is that social media
(15:00):
presents a perfect version ofeverything, and so young moms
and dads may be seeing examplesof family life that seems so
perfect that they feel theirs isinadequate.
That worries me, because nowthat I have two kids with little
kids and we spend, you knowthey've grown up, those two
(15:20):
little kids.
Well, they're not grown up,they're only two and a half, but
at the first two years, two anda half years of their life,
during a pandemic.
So we have spent an enormousamount of time together because
we were in a pod together duringthe worst of the pandemic, and
I keep trying to share with themall my mistakes and all the
things that I didn't do right orthat I'm uncertain of.
(15:43):
And you know it's it's a doublyloaded for for them and for me,
cause I'm a developmentalpsychologist and I teach courses
on child development and Iwrote a book about parenting,
and so I'm very eager,especially with my
daughters-in-law, to make itclear that most of the time I
had no idea what I was doing,but there's so much that I
(16:04):
screwed up and that I stillscrew up.
And so that's the piece aboutsocial media that worries me,
not that it replaces what mom orgrandma has to say, but that it
gives young parents the sensethat somebody else has a perfect
way of doing it.
And one thing I really wantedto talk about, because I feel so
strongly about it and youmentioned some one of you said
(16:25):
the word job.
Parenting is not a job, it's arelationship and God.
If you didn't know that whenthey were sick, you know it when
they're 20.
There's no right way to do it.
There's some ways that make youand your kid happier, and some
ways pitfalls, mistakes but it'snot a job.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I agree with you and I want to just say something
about when you said step awayand you want to continue the
relationship.
I think that's true, but one ofthe things that I've learned
through this podcast is that therelationships change and unless
one person called it a danceand that dance has to evolve,
meaning there's a difference inhaving a relationship with a
two-year-old and a 16-year-oldand a 25-year-old.
(17:08):
And one of the things that cameto me very clear in all your
comments even about people thatdidn't have children, but they
were relating back to how theyfelt about their parents
parenting them as young adultsis the parent's ego getting
involved when you're talking toa child and having a
conversation with them?
Is your ego involved?
Like, are you going to be okay?
Did you lose your job?
(17:28):
Are you going to get anotherjob?
You know that's not how youhave a relationship.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
That's the Greek mother.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
That's the Greek mother, Right, right, right
right, but I think that's what Itake as stepping aside.
The relationship has to evolveand you can no longer still be
the judgy parent or your ego hasto be to the side.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Again, I think we're all human and your ego is
involved.
Recently I have to tell alittle digression A young
colleague of mine she used to bemy student but now she's a
professor and she was telling methat she felt a little
uncomfortable because all herfriends are having kids and she
and her partner aren't sure theywant to have kids and that
(18:12):
makes her feel selfish.
And I said, oh boy, oh boy,you're not selfish.
It's selfish to have kids.
After all, no kid asks to beborn and once they're here
they're sort of stuck and ouregos are involved and honestly,
in terms of when kids are young,the fact that your ego is
involved helps you be a parent.
It helps you get your kid to bea talker, get your kid to learn
(18:35):
to, to learn to abide bysocietal norms.
It's, it's a part of being aparent, because it's part of
what makes you invest so much inyour kid.
It's just human to be that way,and so I suppose I would put it
a little differently.
Maybe I'm just older than youguys and so I've been humbled by
all my mistakes, but sometimesyou you can try to temper that,
(18:58):
you can say back off a littlepipe down, don't push them about
their job or realize that whatthey want for their life is
different than what you thoughtthey would want for their life
or what you wanted for them.
But I don't think there's anysuch thing as putting your ego
aside.
I'll tell you one more storyabout this.
Years ago I had a very goodfriend who had kids the same age
(19:21):
as my kids and they were all intheir teens at the time and I
was telling her a story about usarguing interminably in the
evening about what to watch onTV.
And my one kid didn't want towatch TV at all and my other kid
and I wanted to watch sportsand the third kid wanted to
watch a police drum or something.
And we argued and fought andbickered and my friend said in a
(19:43):
somewhat superior way oh, whenI'm watching TV with my kids, I
never argue, I just let themwatch, they get to choose.
I let them watch what, choosewhat we're going to watch.
And I said oh, and you watchwhatever the show was.
That I thought she hated and Ihated.
And I said you let them watchthat you can stand to sit there.
She said I don't know.
After about five minutes I getup and leave the room.
She said, I don't know, afterabout five minutes I get up and
(20:04):
leave the room For me.
I'd rather stay in there andbicker and come to a solution
that we both can be part of, youknow, in that case, watch a
show that we both want to watchtogether than to be completely
removed.
And my point there is thatthere's a fine line between
holding back a little bit whichI think is great, I agree with
you about that and holding backso much that you've basically
(20:27):
detached, and so I guess I justthink there's a little more
messiness to it, uh, than thanpeople think.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
It's like the relationship is negotiation too.
I I'm one of those people.
I think that as long aseveryone gets to be heard, I
think that and you sort ofnegotiate and decide.
Um, you know, people can maketheir choices, but if everyone's
heard, that to me makes ahappier relationship.
Maybe that's true.
So that leads me to onequestion I've had as a parent of
(21:00):
an adult kid is it everappropriate, or is it absolutely
appropriate, to sort of ask forwhat we want, or do the kids
get to call the shots?
So your TV story sort ofexplains that in a way.
But is it ever appropriate tosay to the kids could I share
what I'm thinking, and it's onlya suggestion or it's only a
(21:21):
thought to add to theconversation say, they're in a
critical moment or a hardship.
Is it okay to ask that?
Or do they get to lead whenthey're the ones who are having
the problems?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Oh boy, that's the million dollar question, isn't
it?
I know?
Well, I wish I knew the answer.
I mean.
Well, one thing I can tell youfrom personal experiences I
often suffer from the illusionthat I'm being subtler than I
really am, absolutely Right.
So I think I'm really holdingback and I'm just kind of
(21:52):
hinting at another way theycould approach it, or the job
they should take, or thenegotiation they should make
with the boss, what they mightsay to their partner.
And God knows, now that two ofthem have kids, I think I'm
being so subtle about parentingstuff and it turns out that I'm
not so subtle and usually theyknow exactly what I'm hinting
around at.
(22:12):
And in those situationssometimes it would be better.
Sometimes it is better to justsay what you think, like take it
or leave it.
But here's what I think youshould do, because after all,
that's what you'd say to afriend, at least some of the
time.
Good point, and of course it'sagain.
It's complicated by the factthat each of your kids is a
different person.
If you have more than one, theybring to the table a lot.
(22:35):
To my three sons, I am proud tosay, but also exasperated to say
don't hesitate to push back orto tell me to pipe down or to
tell me that I'm being intrusive.
I mean, it's like a family jokeand I think their partners are
sometimes a little taken abackby the way that they talk to me.
I thank God for it because Idon't have to worry too much
(22:58):
about saying too much or comingon too strong, because they'll
let me know.
I thank God for it because Idon't have to worry too much
about saying too much or comingon too strong, because they'll
let me know they're very strongand they're very direct and I'm
very grateful for that.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Same with my four boys.
My ego gets involved when, ifthey do bark back at me and I'm
the same way as you, I think I'mbeing subtle.
And then when I get done, Ithink was I just barking like
five bullet points?
And I too I read one of yourquotes, susan, are you taking
notes?
You asked your son when youwere coming up with the solution
(23:26):
.
I'm like, oh, I literally saidlike you should maybe write some
of these down, you know, and Ithought, oh my God, did I just
say that?
Yeah, I do.
I worry a lot.
I love my daughters-in-law, butI don't want them talking
behind my back like, holy crap,your mom is really too strong.
I think I'm being subtle, but Idon't know, they probably are
talking behind your back.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I know mine do.
I said recently to my eldestson, jake, my husband and I were
bickering.
Luckily, today I read a piecein the New York Times about how
bickering is okay.
It was a big relief.
But anyway, I said something tomy son like I know it's hard,
for his wife's name is Silke.
(24:08):
I know it's hard for Silke.
She doesn't like it when webicker because her parents don't
.
They're very harmonious.
And he said it's true, shedoesn't.
A big cloud thought bubble cameup in my head.
Oh my God, it's true, shedoesn't A big cloud thought
bubble came up in my head.
Oh my God, what's she sayingabout me?
How much do they talk about howhorrible I am at bickering in
front of them?
And then I thought too bad.
So what?
That's what people do they talkabout each other?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
And I also wanna say I'm listening to all of you talk
about boys.
There's a real differencebetween adult children as girls
and boys, between adult childrenas girls and boys.
My son does come back at me andsay, mom, don't say that, my
daughter can take it moresensitively.
I think that's how you buildrelationships.
I think, without bickering, youhave a false relationship.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Oh, you should read this piece in the Times.
It'll make you very happy, Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I will.
You know it's very early inDenver so I have not read the
New York Times yet, but anyway,I just really believe that
bickering and sometimes tears atthe end are what bring you
closer.
I think it's held true, butanyway, I want to go through
your journey.
When you wrote this article in2013, you were ready to become a
Buddhist monk or start aBuddhist group.
(25:13):
Now you're talking like oh, I'mso strong, I tell them what I
think, I don't care if they talkabout me.
Suddenly you're like, oh mygosh, a whole different strong.
I tell them what I think, Idon't care if they talk about me
.
Suddenly you're like, oh mygosh, a whole different person.
Can you take us some stepsthrough this journey and also
address how it changed when youdid have daughter-in-laws?
I don't have daughter-in-laws.
Well, I guess I have afiance-in-law and girlfriends
(25:34):
and that sort of thing, and I'malways walking on eggshells, but
I want to hear your journey alittle bit.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Okay, let me just start by saying that, if I sound
all strong and clear, it's only10, 24 here.
The day is young.
Wait till something happenslater in the day and I fall
apart, and then that actually ispart of my answer.
So, yeah, so that was a veryrough time.
My middle son had gone througha really brutal string of really
(26:02):
what felt to him and thereforeto me at the time like
catastrophes, and they reallywere terrible.
It was a time of real sufferingand I'll get back to that in a
minute.
I have a moderate contemporarystory to tell you about my
sister that relates to that.
But I thought I couldn't standit and I couldn't stand watching
him be in so much pain.
I couldn't stand how helpless Ifelt.
(26:24):
And just as we've been talkingabout it began to dawn on me
that my coping skills for myselfand my ways of helping him had
to be totally different thanthey had been when he was seven
or 10.
The problems were different andmy role in it was different,
and that's what led me to writethat piece.
(26:44):
The good news is that my son ismore resilient than I thought he
was at that time and maybe Iwas able to provide some of the
support that was useful to him,but I don't know that that
really had anything to do withit.
But he got through that reallytough time and, after all you
both probably know I see thisnow with my students at Williams
(27:04):
your early 20s can be reallybrutal and if anything is going
on either in your personal life,like a breakup or a job problem
or an illness, a calamity, orin this right now, in 2022, a
world calamity, being in yourearly 20s is just brutal,
(27:25):
because you feel you're supposedto be propelling forward and
doing things and accomplishingthings and getting to be on your
own and you feel totallypunched in the gut about life.
But he was resilient and he gotthrough that period of time and
I think that I began to think alot about some of the things
(27:46):
you two have brought up how tocalm down a little bit, how to
step back, how to trust my kidsto figure things out, how to not
try to rush in and fixeverything, how to just listen.
I mentioned that in that columnnot try to rush in and fix
everything.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
How to just listen, I mentioned that in that column.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
My eldest son said at the time about a different
problem that he was having, notquite as intense, but also a
real problem.
He said Mom, I'm not trying toget you to come up with a
solution, I just want you tolisten.
I still struggle with that.
They still vent to me.
I live right next door to twoof them.
The third is a little differentin the way he and I communicate
(28:20):
and I still have to remindmyself don't fix, don't solve,
don't try to be all cheerful andjust listen and I'm better at
that with my friends.
So partly it's learning how tocopy my friend self.
When I'm listening to my kids.
I don't really have much morethat would be interesting to say
a thing about my journey exceptto my kids.
I don't really have much morethat would be interesting to say
(28:41):
about my journey except that mykids went on growing up and
they're wonderful people and I'mvery lucky because I adore them
and they like me too.
I actually say that not toboast, but because it goes back
to the comment aboutrelationship versus job.
I just like to talk to them andbe with them and I like who
(29:02):
they are and like what they do.
That really matters as yourkids get older that you find
ways not just to be a parent butto just enjoy them, and if you
do, they're likely to enjoy you,and that becomes more and more
important as they become moreand more independent and grown
up.
So that son is as I mentioned.
(29:22):
He's married, he has awonderful career and he has an
incredibly cute little boy.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Are the grandchildren both boys, by the way.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
No, oh, okay, you got a girl.
Yeah, I got a girl, I do too.
Middle son, the one I wrote thepiece about has a little boy.
Do too.
Middle son, the one I wrote thepiece about has a little boy,
henry, and he's well, he'salmost three, I guess.
And then my eldest son, hisolder brother, had a little girl
a few months later, and theyare the funniest dynamic duo.
Her name is Lena, so Henry.
(29:51):
It's funny because my paternalgrandfather was named Henry and
my maternal grandmother wasnamed Lena and because my
parents were divorced, henry andLena were from the different
parts of the family and didn'tlike each other.
But this Henry and Lena reallylove each other and we laugh.
We say finally, henry and Lenawant a hug.
Oh my gosh that's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
I want to ask you about the transition to
daughter-in-laws and significantothers and in your article you
talked about your son breakingup with someone.
He was heartbroken.
Then he met someone else.
How do you welcome that person?
Well, how do you handle it ifyou don't really like that
person?
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Oh boy, Well, I'm lucky.
I adore my daughters-in-law.
I adore.
I have very differentrelationships with each of them.
They're very different people,but they're both feel lucky and
I feel my sons are lucky.
I feel my daughters-in-law arelucky too, because they got
great guys and my youngest sonis seeing someone that I also
(30:52):
adore and think the world of,but that's a newer relationship.
So one time but my sons havedated people I wasn't crazy
about and that I was a mess thatfreaked me out.
And one time and my son knowsthis, so I don't mind saying
that on the podcast One time I,in between serious relationships
(31:14):
, my eldest son dated someonethat I couldn't stand and it
freaked me out.
I thought, oh, his life will behell and so will mine, I think
you should be a stand-upcomedian.
Tell my students that I will.
I will, anyway.
So I said to my best friend,who's a clinical psychologist, I
(31:36):
said, oh my God, what am Igoing to do when?
When should I say something?
Yeah, I need to tell him.
It's just like what we've beentalking about.
I said I need to tell him.
She's a bad choice.
And we agreed I was going towait two more weeks and then I
was going to say something.
And wouldn't you know, he brokeup with her within those two
weeks and now he smiles thistolerant sort of bemused smile
(31:59):
and he says that was never aserious thing, mom, that was
just really fun for an interlude.
And so you know phew, I'mwiping my brow because I just we
both dodged a bullet with thatone, so I'm lucky.
That said, I will agree thatit's a little complicated and
because my daughters-in-law liveright next door, it's even more
(32:22):
complicated.
I'm right up in their grill allthe time and because of the
pandemic I helped a lot,especially in the beginning, in
the first six months, when therewas no child care available but
all my kids and their partnerswere working.
I was very involved.
I helped a lot, and I had tobecause of the pandemic.
It made me super attached to mylittle grandchildren, and then
(32:47):
probably more in their grilleven than I would have been,
because we were each other'sonly dinner company.
So we'd have dinner once a weektogether.
Other than that, you'd neversee anybody, as you all know,
for weeks and months on end.
So, learning how to shut mymouth to paraphrase your podcast
bite your tongue, and also, inmy case, I've learned recently
(33:12):
quite painfully, that I havesuch an overexpressive face.
Oh, me too.
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy oh.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Oh boy I don't know how to play poker, but I wait,
doesn't a mask help with that?
You've got half of your.
You've got half of your facenot showing.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Oh no not with your kids?
Yeah, because they're in yourpod Val.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
They just, they just see my eyes and they know what
I'm thinking.
It's terrible.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
And so I have learned to walk into the other room and
cook.
I'm not kidding you,something's happening with the
little kids.
I get worried they're going tofall or that someone's not
paying attention when the kid istrying to do something.
I think is really important forthem to say something.
I want some grownup to hearthem say, and I just like go
(33:58):
into the kitchen right now andstir the soup.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Susan, I have a question about all this.
So one thing that you saidreally I just from talking to
you this past 30 minutes youhave a very humble side and
that's probably reallyrefreshing for your
daughters-in-law, even if yousay the words that come on
strong or whatever.
Daughters-in-law, even if yousay the words that come on
(34:21):
strong or whatever it soundslike.
You also talk a lot about yourfoibles and ways, the times you
screwed up, and that's probablya really gentle way to let your
ego step back and let them hearthat, even though you're a
psychologist and you knoweverything, you didn't know
everything back at the time youknow, and I think that's you
know.
I try to do more of that.
I try to really compliment mydaughter-in-law when I see
something great and I talk a lotabout how I screwed up.
(34:44):
You know, I think I was a greatparent on the flip side, but
there were so many things Ididn't know I was just winging
it.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, I think the role of mother-in-law is.
So I don't know whether theword is freighted or weighted,
but, like you said, if you alsohave this added thing that you
have some expertise as aresearcher or scholar in that
area, it's kind of a heavybaggage.
So I don't know whether thathumility helps much.
(35:12):
You'd have to interview mydaughter's-in-law about that.
Yeah, that's next.
Yeah, you get them and promisethem anonymity so they tell you
the truth.
Right, yeah, I try.
I mean, the thing is about thebest parenting thing.
I just would say, even if thisrubs you the wrong way, forgive
me, life has made me more humbleand I'm not sure there is like
(35:35):
best parents.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
You know, if you really love your kids and you
reflect on things once in awhile, then you're doing pretty
well.
You're right, yeah, otherwise,it's a contest and it's a
performance and it's and whoknows what's best.
I mean, it's just stumblingalong, hoping that more of the
time, you, you help each otherand like each other than the
(35:56):
other, than the opposite.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Susan, I have one really specific question.
Sure, and it has to do withdifferent personality types.
I love all the Myers-Briggspersonality indicators and stuff
like that.
My sisters and I, we lovetyping our kids and our family
and all of that.
But if you truly have, you knowyou have different
personalities with each child,as you said.
(36:19):
And then the daughters andsons-in-law come in and you not
only have differentpersonalities there, but they've
been maybe raised differently.
So now everything gets a littlebit more complicated with dials.
Can you touch a little bit onthat, because it's different
approaches for differentscenarios, I guess, and
(36:40):
sometimes that's rough.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
I think that's really key.
I think that's a reallyimportant point.
So one thing that I've learnedby having daughters-in-law and
now, you know, grandchildren isthat these other parents are
part of the package, which thankGod they are.
They have their own experiencesgrowing up, part of the package
which, thank God they are.
They have their own experiencesgrowing up.
(37:02):
I'll give you a very concreteexample.
It may not be the mostimportant, but it's an easy one
to talk about because it's soconcrete.
One of my daughters-in-law grewup with a very strong point of
view and a very strong sort oftradition of believing that
sugar was very bad, didn't eatsugar growing up.
Her parents believed in a verysort of I don't know what the
(37:22):
word would be they were verydiet conscious and very
interested in natural foods.
But not I am too.
Actually, I'm obsessed withcooking.
We're all huge eaters.
Huge cooks love healthy food,but I love sugar and I love to
bake, and my kids grew up on asteady diet of sweets, as did I.
In my most recent book, which isnot about this topic at all, I
(37:44):
started off talking about avisit to the candy store.
So, honestly, it's easy to talkabout because it's not quite so
loaded, or well, it is a littleloaded but it's not as
amorphous as some bigger,heavier emotional issue.
But it bothers mydaughter-in-law that often there
are sweets in the house, that Iget so excited over what I'm
(38:06):
going to bake, that her son haslearned that when he comes over
here there's a good chancethere'll be a cookie or
something.
And I wouldn't say that I'vehandled that that well.
And part of what I've grappledwith is that it's not just her,
it's not an idea or a beliefthat she sort of pulled out of a
(38:26):
magazine or a podcast.
It's how she was raised, yeah,yeah, and I have to respect that
and that's been a struggle forme actually.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
You were writing this article in 2013,.
Your husband's role.
Where was he in this wholeparenting dilemma and parenting
adult kids?
How did he feel, what did heshare with you and how did it
evolve?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
I would say that in our marriage like many marriages
of that era maybe not so muchanymore I was the more involved
parent.
I mean I don't know how else toput it, that's kind of blunt.
But he was a loving dad and hewas here and he was very
powerful, important force intheir lives.
But I was sort of the activeone, let's just say.
And he, by temperament, isquieter, he's slightly more
(39:11):
reserved and you know, he's alittle more at times disengaged.
You know all these words have agood side and a bad side.
So trying to convey the goodside and the bad side, and so I
don't.
He was pretty distraught overour son's pain Actually there
are a lot of ways in whichthey're quite alike and I think
it pained him.
(39:32):
But he never has felt theimpulse to to change things, to
fix things, to get involved.
I went to all theparent-teacher conferences.
I was mostly the one.
I once counted up how manytimes I went to the ER and it
was something like 48 times.
Me too yeah that's a terriblegender thing to say, but it's
(39:53):
true.
Yeah, true, more typical if youhave boys.
And so I was at more like I wasat 40 of those ER visits on my
own.
That is to say that I think hewas a little quieter and in some
ways maybe that was better.
At one point I wanted him tointercede with someone on behalf
of my son, an employer who haddone something terrible to my
(40:14):
son, unethical, and I I had.
I really had to push my husbandto do it and he really didn't
want to.
I'll never know, was he rightto be have the impulse to stay
out of it, or was he wrong and Iwas right to push him?
He did it.
Then he went and talked to thisperson to no avail, but at
least my son felt.
(40:35):
I thought my son felt supportedby us and protected by us,
which I thought at the time heneeded.
So that's where he was, andeven now he tends to take a
little bit more of a backseatbut on the other hand, also be a
little calmer, sort of take thelong view.
So that's how I would answerthat.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
So I want to ask you something about that.
I have a very similar husband.
What I sometimes do and I'dlove to know if you ever did
this or what your opinion is,because I'm a talker and I'm
most involved and they read myeyes and everything that you
said we could be twins.
We could be twins.
I sometimes have my husband saysomething that I think is
important to them, because theylisten to it more, because he
(41:17):
doesn't say that much.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Well, that's interesting.
First of all, I never wouldoccur to me to have those kinds
of thoughts.
I just have to be honest aboutthe budget.
I'm impressed, but I'd never dothat.
I'm always sure I can say itbetter, even when I can't.
I just don't know how to answerthat.
No, that was never me.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I should?
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I just feel like it's kind of like when he speaks
they listen.
When I speak, they're like hereshe goes again.
Yeah, you have a good dynamic.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
We have a slightly different dynamic.
There was a movie called theProposal.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I just oh, that's really such a silly movie.
But I've watched it too, and Ithink Betty White is in it.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
That's why we all watched it.
Well, so it just came up theother day in some memoriam.
But Mary Steenburgen says toher husband she at one point
she's mad at how her husband hastreated the daughter or the
son-in-law or whatever it is,and she says you have to make
this right.
And the husband he like goes,oh okay, and trudges over to
(42:20):
make it right.
And I remember feeling jealous,like thinking why can't I just
say to my husband, you, I shouldshut up and I can't fix it and
I shouldn't be trying to.
(42:42):
Or if I think I really havesomething to say, I have to say
it for myself.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Interesting yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
I have a question, Denise, real fast, Go ahead Val.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
And then I have one more, and then we're going to
wrap up Go ahead, val.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Oh boy, I have so many questions.
But, susan, what if you observethat somebody is hurting your
adult child, and I don't meanthat literally, but maybe
there's a controlling person intheir lives or something that's
impacting them and is pushingthem down a little bit?
Say, it's a brother and asister, okay, and they're both
(43:13):
adults, but one just always putsdown the other, puts down the
other, and it's making the otherone act a certain way.
Is there ever a time that youcould come in and try to gently,
let each see each other's pointof view, any kind of
involvement that way, or is thatreally dangerous?
Speaker 1 (43:29):
It's so funny that you bring this up now, because
my family is going throughsomething at several generations
that has to do with thisquestion.
My three sons are quite closewith each other, but that's not
to say they don't have tangles.
I have learned, sort of bybeing a sibling with a parent of
my own, that there's almost nogood way to get involved in that
(43:50):
.
So 95% of the time I just tryto listen to both.
When there's a tension or anupset or a hurt feeling or
something, some of the time theonly thing I feel I can say is
you two should talk.
Oh, that's good.
And then there's one littlepiece that I've learned over the
years that helps me, which isone thing you can do is pass on
(44:13):
good things.
So when one of my kidsappreciates or says something
wonderful about the other, I'mhappy to pass that on, because
that can only be good and theymay not be expressing those
things to each other.
How can it ever hurt to hearthat someone in your family
loved you or appreciatedsomething you did or felt loved
by you?
And sometimes you can add alittle, not to bring up sugar
(44:37):
again, but you can add a littlesugar to things by doing that.
It can only be good.
The one thing that you nevershould do is pass on bad things.
I just don't see how that everis good, exactly, and when your
kids are grown?
I mean, you guys are the onesthat were emphasizing the power
of stepping back and steppingaside and creating some distance
, and in this case, this is oneplace where I would
(45:00):
wholeheartedly agree with you.
They have to get good atworking out their relationships
with one another, so, unlessyou're saying something that
makes them feel better abouteach other, say nothing.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Bite your tongue.
Yeah, you were talking aboutyour son's living next door and
the daughter in law's livingnext door.
Two grandchildren living nextdoor, Actually, my neighbor
across the street.
Her daughter lives next doorand I'm very close to the little
grandkids.
They're my grandkids because Idon't have any.
But I always wonder how theother parents feel, like the
in-laws they're in your littlepod, Everyone's all together.
(45:33):
How do the other parents dealwith that, Like if I was the
parent that lived in?
You know you're in Williamstown, I assume, right?
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Well, South County of Berkshire County.
I live in New Marlborough.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
The in-laws are in California or whatever it might
be, and you're in your littlepod, growing so close to these
little kids and having thisgreat experience.
How do you deal with that?
And how do the girls deal withit with their parents?
And how do you?
Do you engage the in-laws at?
Speaker 1 (45:58):
all, do you have another two or three hours?
Well, I will say one thing.
So one of my daughters-in-lawher parents, live right nearby
so it's not quite as unequal orasymmetrical as you might think
and her, her mom is.
Her parents aren't married, buther mom is very involved, a
devoted grandmother and adevoted mom, and so that's nice,
(46:25):
because there's not quite theasymmetry that you might think.
My other daughter-in-law, herparents live about five hours
away and sometimes I do thinkthey each feel a little left out
.
Needless to say, I am acompletely besotted grandmother
and very I'd love to be withlittle kids and I love these
little kids.
So so, yeah, I think sometimesthat does create some tension
(46:47):
and I think my daughters-in-laware very alive to that and
probably have to negotiatethings of which I'm unaware,
like hurt feelings or feelingleft out.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
And Denise.
I'm on the I'm on the flip sideof that.
So I've got my oldest lives inBerkeley, california, with two
of our grandkids and they livefairly close to my
daughter-in-law's parents.
Of course I'd love to have themcloser, but what I tell myself
is if anybody else is going toget to be with that family and
those kids, I love that it'sthem.
I'm very lucky that I love themand I'm like, okay, they're
(47:20):
holding down the fort until weget to come visit.
That's such a great way ofthinking about it.
And again, just look at thebright side.
Not everybody has that, butthat's what gets me through.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
I think that's wonderful.
I want to just correct onething that you might think If
you have a neighbor who can seethis for yourself, it's paradise
when it's paradise, but notalways.
So having them right next doormeans that I have to see bad
things up close too.
I mean, everybody makes fun ofwhat happened when my middle son
(47:50):
, when they were going to have ahome birth and I could see the
light on in their room and Ijust knew that labor wasn't
progressing.
I was so beside myself that myfriend had to drive from
Williamstown an hour to get hereto drink scotch with me and
wait and we kept peeking out thewindow to see if the light was
still on.
It was horrible If you're not astandup comic.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
you need to write a sitcom, Susan, but anyway.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
So what I mean is it's a mixed bag, and then when
we are not getting longer, I putmy foot in my mouth or there's
tension.
It's kind of awful.
It's right up in our, you know,everybody's right up in each
other's business and it'spainful.
There's very little distance,you know.
I told you my youngest son.
He lives in New York, a coupleof hours away, and we're quite
(48:38):
close and we talk a lot, butsometimes I only hear about a
bad thing after it's happenedand things are OK.
And that has its own positiveside.
I'll give you an example.
This morning I got a text fromone of my sons saying that
school had been canceled daycarebecause of the snow.
There's a lot of snow where weare today and I had to write
(48:59):
right away and say well, I can'thelp because I'm doing a
podcast and then I have ameeting and what I mean to say
is it is paradise a lot of thetime, but it's not simple.
Let me put it that way.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Okay, we always end our episodes, susan, with our
guests giving two or threetakeaways that they want our
listeners to take away from theepisode.
Can you provide those for us?
I can try.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Okay, I'll say two.
One is, I've already said,think less of your relationship
with your grown kids as a jobthat you can perfect or do right
or wrong, and think of it moreas a relationship that you hope
that you and your kid will get alot out of.
Relationships are supposed tobe a source of pleasure and
(49:46):
support and sustenance, andthat's true for your kids as
well as for your friendships oryour partners.
So that's one.
It's a relationship, not a job.
And the second is a piece ofgood news, which is your kids go
on changing and growing and theway they are that when they're
22 or 25 is not the way they'llalways be.
And the wonderful thing I'velearned is, if you're lucky,
(50:09):
they keep getting stronger.
They still can figure out newways of coping, they can still
find new strength, they getstronger and their life branches
out.
And a final piece of good newswith any luck they develop other
close relationships that kindof bear some of the weight of
their pain.
So when your kid is 24 andthey're going through a lot of
(50:32):
pain, you may be their mainsource of support.
But when they're 30 or 35 andthey're going through some pain,
with any luck.
They have a very close friendor a partner who also can share
some of that role with you.
Wow, that's really amazing.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
I'm going to say thanks to both of you, val,
thanks for co-hosting with me.
It's been wonderful I had agreat time, thank you.
Susan, I am so glad I gave youa ring while I was in New York
City and you answered the phone,because this has been such a
delight and you've been funnyand informative and everything
else.
Don't you agree, val yeah?
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Thank you for so many examples and anecdotes.
It turns a very difficult topicvery concrete.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Well, it was a pleasure to talk to you both.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Okay, go hug those grandbab.
Okay, take care, bye-bye.
Well, that's a wrap.
Thank you, susan for joiningand Val, thanks again for
co-hosting.
Ellen will be back soon.
I think Susan brought somegreat levity to this whole topic
of building relationships withour adult kids.
I hope her humor and insighthelps us all get through the day
(51:40):
and our journey.
Remember, it's not a job, it'sa relationship.
There's so much more coming upon Bite your Tongue, season 2.
We're going to try to bringmore racial and economic
diversity into the podcast, withstories from many men and women
who've walked the walk andtalked the talk.
So stay tuned.
Thank you again to ConnieFisher, our audio engineer, and
(52:01):
remember to send your questionsfor our special we're On it
episodes.
Follow us on social media anduntil next time, remember,
sometimes you just have to biteyour tongue.
There's one little piece that I've learned over the
years that helps me, which isone thing you can do is pass on
good things.
So when one of my kidsappreciates or says something
wonderful about the other, I'mhappy to pass that on, because
that can only be good, and theymay not be expressing those
things to each other.
How can it ever hurt to hearthat someone in your family
(00:27):
loved you or appreciatedsomething you did or felt loved
by you and sometimes you can adda little sugar to things by
doing that.
It can only be good.
The one thing that you nevershould do is pass on bad things.
I just don't see how that everis good.
And when your kids are grown, Imean you guys are the ones that
were emphasizing the power ofstepping back and stepping aside
(00:51):
and creating some distance.
And in this case, this is oneplace where I would
wholeheartedly agree with you.
They have to get good atworking out their relationships
with one another.
So, unless you're sayingsomething that makes them feel
better about each other, saynothing.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Hello everyone, I'm Denise Gorin.
Welcome to Bite your Tongue,the podcast.
Thanks for joining us as wespeak with experts, authors,
parents and even young adults toexplore the transition from
parenting our young children tobuilding healthy relationships
with our now adults.
Hopefully we'll grow together,learn about ourselves, our young
(01:38):
adults and, of course, when tobite our tongues.
We are so happy you're with us,so let's get started.
Welcome to another episode ofBite your Tongue, the podcast.
So our dear talented audioengineer, connie Fisher, was
strolling through the internetand came across this wonderful
(02:01):
New York Times story by WilliamsCollege psychologist, susan
Engel.
The title just drew her in whenthey're grown, the real pain
begins.
We decided to reach out and seeif, by chance, susan would chat
with us.
She was actually interviewedabout this story by Savannah
Guthrie on the Today Show in2012.
Her then three young adult boyswere 28, 25, and 19.
(02:26):
Now they're 38, 35, and 29.
We were wondering how has thischanged for Susan, what her
journey's been, and we'd like tocatch up with her now.
The article's great and we'lltalk about parts of it as we go
through this episode, but Iwanted first to share one thing
Susan's family friend andneighbor, cora Stevens, said to
(02:49):
Susan when she first brought herfirstborn son home at three
weeks old, cora bounced Jacob onher knee and turned to Susan
and said when they're little,they sit on your lap.
When they're big, they sit onyour heart.
So what do you think listeners,do we agree?
Anyway, ellen couldn't be withme today, so I asked a good
friend, val Haller, to co-hostwith me.
(03:09):
Val lives in Chicago and we'vebeen friends since middle school
.
We both grew up in Ohio.
I asked Val to join me becauseshe has four boys and they are
just about the same age asSusan's boys when she wrote the
story and you should know, whileraising children, val was my
(03:32):
go-to mother for parentingquestions.
After raising her boys, valdeveloped her passion for music
into a business.
She launched ValsListcom andwith her remarkable ear she
finds great new music forboomers.
I have to say her playlists areamazing.
I play them all the time,especially her engaging dinner
party playlist.
Every time I play it my friendsask me where'd you get that
playlist?
But anyway, we'll talk aboutthat later, but I had to mention
(03:53):
it because I think listenerswill love her site.
So welcome Val.
I'm so glad to have you.
Why don't you introduceyourself and then introduce
Susan, and we'll get started.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Hi, denise, thank you so much for inviting me to join
the conversation today.
I mean, heaven knows, we'vespent millions of hours talking
about parenting together overthe years, and thanks for
mentioning my music business,but my first identity is being a
parent and I just want to sayI'm truly honored to be here
because I love your podcast somuch.
I'm rather obsessed with it.
(04:24):
You just bring such goodquality content to us and this
should have been invented a longtime ago, denise.
But it's a great resource forthose of us who have grown up
kids, because we think the hardwork is done because raising
little ones is hard work andjust when we sit back and relax
and try to just enjoy the fruitsof our labor and say they're
launched and now I can relax,then the big kid phone calls
(04:45):
start coming with bigger crisesand bigger heartbreak, and
that's when our hearts take over.
But that's not the best tool touse in this approach.
So it's such an important topicand, susan, I'm so happy to
meet you.
I know I'm going to learn a tontoday.
Now let's get started.
I am so excited to introduce ourguest, dr Susan Engel.
(05:08):
Susan is a senior lecturer inpsychology, founding director of
the program in teaching atWilliams College.
She currently serves as theWilliams College Gardeno Scholar
, a position that creates andpromotes opportunities for
students to stretch beyond whatthey are familiar with.
She is also one of the foundersof an experimental school in
New York State, where she servedas educational advisor for 18
(05:30):
years, and she has authorednumerous books.
But today we are talking to herabout her three sons, jake,
will and Sam.
We're anxious to learn abouthow things have changed since
she wrote her attention-grabbingarticle in 2012.
Welcome, susan.
Please feel free to tell usanything else about yourself
we've missed and again, thankyou for joining us.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Hi, thank you.
Thank you so much for thatlovely introduction.
What did you miss?
Well, one slight correction I'mactually done with my role as
the Gaudino Scholar.
It's a three-year role and Ipassed it on to someone else a
while ago.
Well, what can I tell you thatyou missed?
You couldn't possibly haveknown this, but I have two very
(06:11):
small grandchildren.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
That was going to be one of my first questions.
So, in this time, do you haveany grandchildren?
I was going to ask that at thevery top of the hour.
Well, there you go.
So that's wonderful, and dothey live near?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
you at all.
Oh boy, oh boy.
Do they ever?
They live right next door to me, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Oh, that's not fair.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So two of my three sons live right next door and
for the moment they actuallylive in the same house.
It used to be mymother-in-law's house when she
was alive and their wives livedthere with them, and about two
and a half years ago they eachhad a little baby.
So two little kids who arecousins live right next door to
(06:49):
me.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Okay, Well this is too good to be true, too good to
be true.
Let's talk about thedifficulties of raising adult
children, not the what do I wantto say?
The fairy tale that you'reliving right now.
Anyway, so you wrote thisarticle in 2013 and I went
through all of the comments.
I was just reading them, likethe comments are like a book in
(07:12):
itself and I know this articlehas gotten so much attention.
You know, some of the commentsare very painful and some of
them just say listen, your jobis let go love them, leave them
that sort of thing.
Why do you think it got so muchattention?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Well, I asked myself that a lot after the piece came
out, because I was totallyflabbergasted by the volume and
intensity of people's responsesand I should say that I still
get emails about it regularlyand I think the answer is
because so many parents struggleso much as their kids grow up
(07:48):
to figure out what their role is, to figure out how to manage
their own feelings, to figureout how to navigate the world of
adult children, and I thinkthere has been very little
written or published about this.
It's a reason why I think yourpodcast is such a great idea.
When I was experiencing thedifficulties I described in that
(08:09):
piece, I felt totally alone andmy sense which was oddly blind
of me was that every friend Ihad was having smooth sailing.
It's worth getting intograduate school, getting jobs,
finding a life mate.
Kids were getting into graduateschool, getting jobs, finding a
life mate, going off andsetting up their wonderful
independent life.
And I thought I was the onlyone whose kids were struggling
(08:32):
and the only one who felt kindof punched in the stomach by the
unexpected aspects of theexperience, because I had
already been a mom.
Obviously, by definition, I hadalready been a mom for 20
something years, so it was justtotally new to me, and it never
occurred to me that others weregoing through the same thing.
When I began to get theresponses, I realized that lots
(08:55):
I would say almost everybodygoes through it, and they just
don't know that everybody elseis doing that too.
They think they're alone.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
That's a great.
Yeah, I have have one question.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Okay, go ahead Val.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I think what happens too is our role changes.
But we weren't warned aboutthat, you know, we weren't
warned that at some point, whenthey become adults, our whole
approach probably needs to shiftand we transfer from being
fixers, where we either do itfor them or show them how to do
it, to something reallydifferent, like we might just
(09:29):
listen more.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I think it's true, but I'm not sure.
I'll just speak for myself here.
Oh, and a few others.
I'll give you an example.
That warning wouldn't havehelped me.
Yeah, so my mom is 97.
And this morning I was tellingher about the fact that I was
going to be doing this podcastand she was reminding me that
about 30 years ago so when I wasin my 30s my father, who's now
(09:54):
dead, and they were divorced, soshe was sort of speaking at a
distance.
She said remember when your dadwanted to write a book about
parenting grown upup kids?
And I do remember that he saidthat he wasn't a writer, so I
made fun of him.
When she said this, I said well, he wasn't a writer, so how
would he have done that?
My point is that I do rememberhim bringing that up, and I
(10:17):
think he said it to me as anindirect way to say I'm
struggling with how to be yourdad now that you're a grown-up.
I don't think I heard that forwhat it was, and so I'm
struggling with how to be yourdad now that you're grown up.
I don't think I heard that forwhat it was, and so I'm not sure
that you can warn people,because it's very hard to
imagine that before you've gonethrough it.
I think it might be somethingthat you have to begin to go
(10:38):
through.
I mean, maybe I'm wrong aboutthis.
Maybe if we heard people talkabout it more when we were
younger we'd be more ready forit.
But I know that people warnedme of all kinds of things before
I had my first child and I paidno attention.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Well, don't you think we all think we're going to do
it better and we all think we'regoing to?
You know we're going to.
That's not true.
We're going to handle it better, even when we have our children
as babies.
We think we're going to do abetter job than our parents did
and in the end we have all thesame struggles that our parents
had.
It's interesting that youbrought up the generational
thing, because I wonderedwhether some of this is
(11:14):
generational.
Like, did our parents have thissort of thing?
We're so much more connected toour kids, even when they're
further away, so it's harder todisconnect.
Do you think there's any truthin that right now?
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You know, I don't know about that.
I'm going to give a complicatedanswer.
First of all, only some peoplehistorically were separated from
their kids.
After all, in most parts of theworld people live very close to
the other members of theirfamily and for most of history
that's been true.
So the idea of the grown up faraway, separate kid is sort of a
(11:58):
modern Western middle classmyth, I think.
And honestly, even before therewas texting there were
telephones.
I come from a family that wasvery close and my whole life, I
mean, I remember when I was incollege and I was living with my
boyfriend already who's now myhusband I could tell you what
(12:22):
every single person in mycomplicated, spread apart family
was reading.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Oh my.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
God, my parents were divorced.
I had three siblings.
I always knew what noveleverybody else was reading, so
that's because we were very intouch and involved with each
other.
So I don't know.
I think that and the reason Ibring that up is one thing that
you've mentioned that I justdon't even accept is the idea
(12:47):
that somehow you should stepaway when your kids are grown up
.
I don't know why that's a goodthing People need to be close to
each other and I don't see whyit's better to be close to
somebody else than someone inyour family.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Susan, I have one quick question about social
media.
Yeah, my question's a littlebit different about that.
It's not so much that we'reconnected or moms talk to their
daughters daily, even whenthey're 25, and that kind of
thing.
One thing that really worriesme is that social media has
almost become the youngergeneration's standard of
(13:23):
everything.
It's standard of advice, it'sstandard of what the norm is.
It's almost groupthink, and Iused to really try to tell my
kids don't groupthink, you'llget stuck.
So that's the piece that Iworry about.
They tend to go to that first,and I'm a grandmother too and
I'm so close to my kids, mygrandkids, but I worry that
maybe mom's advice orgrandmother's advice, even about
(13:45):
parenting, might come second.
What do you think Might comesecond?
Is that what you said Might bethe second thing that they'll
listen to instead of, you know,the first thing?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Well, yeah, it might be.
I mean, look, that too hasalways been a little more
complicated than people think,because the advice that you get
from your mom or yourgrandmother comes loaded with
your own irritations andresentments and evaluation of
how they brought you up, andsocieties have very interesting,
(14:16):
complicated ways of passingdown child-rearing wisdom.
So in some cultures it'sassumed that you will do things
the way that the elders in yourcommunity or your neighborhood
do them.
And in other communities,certainly in modern Western life
look at Dr Spock A wholegeneration, certainly my mom,
(14:37):
when she was young, turned to DrSpock before she turned to her
mother, and she felt superior toher mother, like she was
reading something that was basedin science.
That's a really good point.
So that too is not totally new.
I think one thing that you bringup that I do worry about you
read about this all the time inthe news is that social media
(15:00):
presents a perfect version ofeverything, and so young moms
and dads may be seeing examplesof family life that seems so
perfect that they feel theirs isinadequate.
That worries me, because nowthat I have two kids with little
kids and we spend, you knowthey've grown up, those two
(15:20):
little kids.
Well, they're not grown up,they're only two and a half, but
at the first two years, two anda half years of their life,
during a pandemic.
So we have spent an enormousamount of time together because
we were in a pod together duringthe worst of the pandemic, and
I keep trying to share with themall my mistakes and all the
things that I didn't do right orthat I'm uncertain of.
(15:43):
And you know it's it's a doublyloaded for for them and for me,
cause I'm a developmentalpsychologist and I teach courses
on child development and Iwrote a book about parenting,
and so I'm very eager,especially with my
daughters-in-law, to make itclear that most of the time I
had no idea what I was doing,but there's so much that I
(16:04):
screwed up and that I stillscrew up.
And so that's the piece aboutsocial media that worries me,
not that it replaces what mom orgrandma has to say, but that it
gives young parents the sensethat somebody else has a perfect
way of doing it.
And one thing I really wantedto talk about, because I feel so
strongly about it and youmentioned some one of you said
(16:25):
the word job.
Parenting is not a job, it's arelationship and God.
If you didn't know that whenthey were sick, you know it when
they're 20.
There's no right way to do it.
There's some ways that make youand your kid happier, and some
ways pitfalls, mistakes but it'snot a job.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I agree with you and I want to just say something
about when you said step awayand you want to continue the
relationship.
I think that's true, but one ofthe things that I've learned
through this podcast is that therelationships change and unless
one person called it a danceand that dance has to evolve,
meaning there's a difference inhaving a relationship with a
two-year-old and a 16-year-oldand a 25-year-old.
(17:08):
And one of the things that cameto me very clear in all your
comments even about people thatdidn't have children, but they
were relating back to how theyfelt about their parents
parenting them as young adultsis the parent's ego getting
involved when you're talking toa child and having a
conversation with them?
Is your ego involved?
Like, are you going to be okay?
Did you lose your job?
(17:28):
Are you going to get anotherjob?
You know that's not how youhave a relationship.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
That's the Greek mother.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
That's the Greek mother, Right, right, right
right, but I think that's what Itake as stepping aside.
The relationship has to evolveand you can no longer still be
the judgy parent or your ego hasto be to the side.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Again, I think we're all human and your ego is
involved.
Recently I have to tell alittle digression A young
colleague of mine she used to bemy student but now she's a
professor and she was telling methat she felt a little
uncomfortable because all herfriends are having kids and she
and her partner aren't sure theywant to have kids and that
(18:12):
makes her feel selfish.
And I said, oh boy, oh boy,you're not selfish.
It's selfish to have kids.
After all, no kid asks to beborn and once they're here
they're sort of stuck and ouregos are involved and honestly,
in terms of when kids are young,the fact that your ego is
involved helps you be a parent.
It helps you get your kid to bea talker, get your kid to learn
(18:35):
to, to learn to abide bysocietal norms.
It's, it's a part of being aparent, because it's part of
what makes you invest so much inyour kid.
It's just human to be that way,and so I suppose I would put it
a little differently.
Maybe I'm just older than youguys and so I've been humbled by
all my mistakes, but sometimesyou you can try to temper that,
(18:58):
you can say back off a littlepipe down, don't push them about
their job or realize that whatthey want for their life is
different than what you thoughtthey would want for their life
or what you wanted for them.
But I don't think there's anysuch thing as putting your ego
aside.
I'll tell you one more storyabout this.
Years ago I had a very goodfriend who had kids the same age
(19:21):
as my kids and they were all intheir teens at the time and I
was telling her a story about usarguing interminably in the
evening about what to watch onTV.
And my one kid didn't want towatch TV at all and my other kid
and I wanted to watch sportsand the third kid wanted to
watch a police drum or something.
And we argued and fought andbickered and my friend said in a
(19:43):
somewhat superior way oh, whenI'm watching TV with my kids, I
never argue, I just let themwatch, they get to choose.
I let them watch what, choosewhat we're going to watch.
And I said oh, and you watchwhatever the show was.
That I thought she hated and Ihated.
And I said you let them watchthat you can stand to sit there.
She said I don't know.
After about five minutes I getup and leave the room.
She said, I don't know, afterabout five minutes I get up and
(20:04):
leave the room For me.
I'd rather stay in there andbicker and come to a solution
that we both can be part of, youknow, in that case, watch a
show that we both want to watchtogether than to be completely
removed.
And my point there is thatthere's a fine line between
holding back a little bit whichI think is great, I agree with
you about that and holding backso much that you've basically
(20:27):
detached, and so I guess I justthink there's a little more
messiness to it, uh, than thanpeople think.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
It's like the relationship is negotiation too.
I I'm one of those people.
I think that as long aseveryone gets to be heard, I
think that and you sort ofnegotiate and decide.
Um, you know, people can maketheir choices, but if everyone's
heard, that to me makes ahappier relationship.
Maybe that's true.
So that leads me to onequestion I've had as a parent of
(21:00):
an adult kid is it everappropriate, or is it absolutely
appropriate, to sort of ask forwhat we want, or do the kids
get to call the shots?
So your TV story sort ofexplains that in a way.
But is it ever appropriate tosay to the kids could I share
what I'm thinking, and it's onlya suggestion or it's only a
(21:21):
thought to add to theconversation say, they're in a
critical moment or a hardship.
Is it okay to ask that?
Or do they get to lead whenthey're the ones who are having
the problems?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Oh boy, that's the million dollar question, isn't
it?
I know?
Well, I wish I knew the answer.
I mean.
Well, one thing I can tell youfrom personal experiences I
often suffer from the illusionthat I'm being subtler than I
really am, absolutely Right.
So I think I'm really holdingback and I'm just kind of
(21:52):
hinting at another way theycould approach it, or the job
they should take, or thenegotiation they should make
with the boss, what they mightsay to their partner.
And God knows, now that two ofthem have kids, I think I'm
being so subtle about parentingstuff and it turns out that I'm
not so subtle and usually theyknow exactly what I'm hinting
around at.
(22:12):
And in those situationssometimes it would be better.
Sometimes it is better to justsay what you think, like take it
or leave it.
But here's what I think youshould do, because after all,
that's what you'd say to afriend, at least some of the
time.
Good point, and of course it'sagain.
It's complicated by the factthat each of your kids is a
different person.
If you have more than one, theybring to the table a lot.
(22:35):
To my three sons, I am proud tosay, but also exasperated to say
don't hesitate to push back orto tell me to pipe down or to
tell me that I'm being intrusive.
I mean, it's like a family jokeand I think their partners are
sometimes a little taken abackby the way that they talk to me.
I thank God for it because Idon't have to worry too much
(22:58):
about saying too much or comingon too strong, because they'll
let me know.
I thank God for it because Idon't have to worry too much
about saying too much or comingon too strong, because they'll
let me know they're very strongand they're very direct and I'm
very grateful for that.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Same with my four boys.
My ego gets involved when, ifthey do bark back at me and I'm
the same way as you, I think I'mbeing subtle.
And then when I get done, Ithink was I just barking like
five bullet points?
And I too I read one of yourquotes, susan, are you taking
notes?
You asked your son when youwere coming up with the solution
(23:26):
.
I'm like, oh, I literally saidlike you should maybe write some
of these down, you know, and Ithought, oh my God, did I just
say that?
Yeah, I do.
I worry a lot.
I love my daughters-in-law, butI don't want them talking
behind my back like, holy crap,your mom is really too strong.
I think I'm being subtle, but Idon't know, they probably are
talking behind your back.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I know mine do.
I said recently to my eldestson, jake, my husband and I were
bickering.
Luckily, today I read a piecein the New York Times about how
bickering is okay.
It was a big relief.
But anyway, I said something tomy son like I know it's hard,
for his wife's name is Silke.
(24:08):
I know it's hard for Silke.
She doesn't like it when webicker because her parents don't
.
They're very harmonious.
And he said it's true, shedoesn't.
A big cloud thought bubble cameup in my head.
Oh my God, it's true, shedoesn't A big cloud thought
bubble came up in my head.
Oh my God, what's she sayingabout me?
How much do they talk about howhorrible I am at bickering in
front of them?
And then I thought too bad.
So what?
That's what people do they talkabout each other?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
And I also wanna say I'm listening to all of you talk
about boys.
There's a real differencebetween adult children as girls
and boys, between adult childrenas girls and boys.
My son does come back at me andsay, mom, don't say that, my
daughter can take it moresensitively.
I think that's how you buildrelationships.
I think, without bickering, youhave a false relationship.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Oh, you should read this piece in the Times.
It'll make you very happy, Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I will.
You know it's very early inDenver so I have not read the
New York Times yet, but anyway,I just really believe that
bickering and sometimes tears atthe end are what bring you
closer.
I think it's held true, butanyway, I want to go through
your journey.
When you wrote this article in2013, you were ready to become a
Buddhist monk or start aBuddhist group.
(25:13):
Now you're talking like oh, I'mso strong, I tell them what I
think, I don't care if they talkabout me.
Suddenly you're like, oh mygosh, a whole different strong.
I tell them what I think, Idon't care if they talk about me
.
Suddenly you're like, oh mygosh, a whole different person.
Can you take us some stepsthrough this journey and also
address how it changed when youdid have daughter-in-laws?
I don't have daughter-in-laws.
Well, I guess I have afiance-in-law and girlfriends
(25:34):
and that sort of thing, and I'malways walking on eggshells, but
I want to hear your journey alittle bit.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Okay, let me just start by saying that, if I sound
all strong and clear, it's only10, 24 here.
The day is young.
Wait till something happenslater in the day and I fall
apart, and then that actually ispart of my answer.
So, yeah, so that was a veryrough time.
My middle son had gone througha really brutal string of really
(26:02):
what felt to him and thereforeto me at the time like
catastrophes, and they reallywere terrible.
It was a time of real sufferingand I'll get back to that in a
minute.
I have a moderate contemporarystory to tell you about my
sister that relates to that.
But I thought I couldn't standit and I couldn't stand watching
him be in so much pain.
I couldn't stand how helpless Ifelt.
(26:24):
And just as we've been talkingabout it began to dawn on me
that my coping skills for myselfand my ways of helping him had
to be totally different thanthey had been when he was seven
or 10.
The problems were different andmy role in it was different,
and that's what led me to writethat piece.
(26:44):
The good news is that my son ismore resilient than I thought he
was at that time and maybe Iwas able to provide some of the
support that was useful to him,but I don't know that that
really had anything to do withit.
But he got through that reallytough time and, after all you
both probably know I see thisnow with my students at Williams
(27:04):
your early 20s can be reallybrutal and if anything is going
on either in your personal life,like a breakup or a job problem
or an illness, a calamity, orin this right now, in 2022, a
world calamity, being in yourearly 20s is just brutal,
(27:25):
because you feel you're supposedto be propelling forward and
doing things and accomplishingthings and getting to be on your
own and you feel totallypunched in the gut about life.
But he was resilient and he gotthrough that period of time and
I think that I began to think alot about some of the things
(27:46):
you two have brought up how tocalm down a little bit, how to
step back, how to trust my kidsto figure things out, how to not
try to rush in and fixeverything, how to just listen.
I mentioned that in that columnnot try to rush in and fix
everything.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
How to just listen, I mentioned that in that column.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
My eldest son said at the time about a different
problem that he was having, notquite as intense, but also a
real problem.
He said Mom, I'm not trying toget you to come up with a
solution, I just want you tolisten.
I still struggle with that.
They still vent to me.
I live right next door to twoof them.
The third is a little differentin the way he and I communicate
(28:20):
and I still have to remindmyself don't fix, don't solve,
don't try to be all cheerful andjust listen and I'm better at
that with my friends.
So partly it's learning how tocopy my friend self.
When I'm listening to my kids.
I don't really have much morethat would be interesting to say
a thing about my journey exceptto my kids.
I don't really have much morethat would be interesting to say
(28:41):
about my journey except that mykids went on growing up and
they're wonderful people and I'mvery lucky because I adore them
and they like me too.
I actually say that not toboast, but because it goes back
to the comment aboutrelationship versus job.
I just like to talk to them andbe with them and I like who
(29:02):
they are and like what they do.
That really matters as yourkids get older that you find
ways not just to be a parent butto just enjoy them, and if you
do, they're likely to enjoy you,and that becomes more and more
important as they become moreand more independent and grown
up.
So that son is as I mentioned.
(29:22):
He's married, he has awonderful career and he has an
incredibly cute little boy.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Are the grandchildren both boys, by the way.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
No, oh, okay, you got a girl.
Yeah, I got a girl, I do too.
Middle son, the one I wrote thepiece about has a little boy.
Do too.
Middle son, the one I wrote thepiece about has a little boy,
henry, and he's well, he'salmost three, I guess.
And then my eldest son, hisolder brother, had a little girl
a few months later, and theyare the funniest dynamic duo.
Her name is Lena, so Henry.
(29:51):
It's funny because my paternalgrandfather was named Henry and
my maternal grandmother wasnamed Lena and because my
parents were divorced, henry andLena were from the different
parts of the family and didn'tlike each other.
But this Henry and Lena reallylove each other and we laugh.
We say finally, henry and Lenawant a hug.
Oh my gosh that's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
I want to ask you about the transition to
daughter-in-laws and significantothers and in your article you
talked about your son breakingup with someone.
He was heartbroken.
Then he met someone else.
How do you welcome that person?
Well, how do you handle it ifyou don't really like that
person?
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Oh boy, Well, I'm lucky.
I adore my daughters-in-law.
I adore.
I have very differentrelationships with each of them.
They're very different people,but they're both feel lucky and
I feel my sons are lucky.
I feel my daughters-in-law arelucky too, because they got
great guys and my youngest sonis seeing someone that I also
(30:52):
adore and think the world of,but that's a newer relationship.
So one time but my sons havedated people I wasn't crazy
about and that I was a mess thatfreaked me out.
And one time and my son knowsthis, so I don't mind saying
that on the podcast One time I,in between serious relationships
(31:14):
, my eldest son dated someonethat I couldn't stand and it
freaked me out.
I thought, oh, his life will behell and so will mine, I think
you should be a stand-upcomedian.
Tell my students that I will.
I will, anyway.
So I said to my best friend,who's a clinical psychologist, I
(31:36):
said, oh my God, what am Igoing to do when?
When should I say something?
Yeah, I need to tell him.
It's just like what we've beentalking about.
I said I need to tell him.
She's a bad choice.
And we agreed I was going towait two more weeks and then I
was going to say something.
And wouldn't you know, he brokeup with her within those two
weeks and now he smiles thistolerant sort of bemused smile
(31:59):
and he says that was never aserious thing, mom, that was
just really fun for an interlude.
And so you know phew, I'mwiping my brow because I just we
both dodged a bullet with thatone, so I'm lucky.
That said, I will agree thatit's a little complicated and
because my daughters-in-law liveright next door, it's even more
(32:22):
complicated.
I'm right up in their grill allthe time and because of the
pandemic I helped a lot,especially in the beginning, in
the first six months, when therewas no child care available but
all my kids and their partnerswere working.
I was very involved.
I helped a lot, and I had tobecause of the pandemic.
It made me super attached to mylittle grandchildren, and then
(32:47):
probably more in their grilleven than I would have been,
because we were each other'sonly dinner company.
So we'd have dinner once a weektogether.
Other than that, you'd neversee anybody, as you all know,
for weeks and months on end.
So, learning how to shut mymouth to paraphrase your podcast
bite your tongue, and also, inmy case, I've learned recently
(33:12):
quite painfully, that I havesuch an overexpressive face.
Oh, me too.
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy oh.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Oh boy I don't know how to play poker, but I wait,
doesn't a mask help with that?
You've got half of your.
You've got half of your facenot showing.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Oh no not with your kids?
Yeah, because they're in yourpod Val.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
They just, they just see my eyes and they know what
I'm thinking.
It's terrible.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
And so I have learned to walk into the other room and
cook.
I'm not kidding you,something's happening with the
little kids.
I get worried they're going tofall or that someone's not
paying attention when the kid istrying to do something.
I think is really important forthem to say something.
I want some grownup to hearthem say, and I just like go
(33:58):
into the kitchen right now andstir the soup.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Susan, I have a question about all this.
So one thing that you saidreally I just from talking to
you this past 30 minutes youhave a very humble side and
that's probably reallyrefreshing for your
daughters-in-law, even if yousay the words that come on
strong or whatever.
Daughters-in-law, even if yousay the words that come on
(34:21):
strong or whatever it soundslike.
You also talk a lot about yourfoibles and ways, the times you
screwed up, and that's probablya really gentle way to let your
ego step back and let them hearthat, even though you're a
psychologist and you knoweverything, you didn't know
everything back at the time youknow, and I think that's you
know.
I try to do more of that.
I try to really compliment mydaughter-in-law when I see
something great and I talk a lotabout how I screwed up.
(34:44):
You know, I think I was a greatparent on the flip side, but
there were so many things Ididn't know I was just winging
it.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, I think the role of mother-in-law is.
So I don't know whether theword is freighted or weighted,
but, like you said, if you alsohave this added thing that you
have some expertise as aresearcher or scholar in that
area, it's kind of a heavybaggage.
So I don't know whether thathumility helps much.
(35:12):
You'd have to interview mydaughter's-in-law about that.
Yeah, that's next.
Yeah, you get them and promisethem anonymity so they tell you
the truth.
Right, yeah, I try.
I mean, the thing is about thebest parenting thing.
I just would say, even if thisrubs you the wrong way, forgive
me, life has made me more humbleand I'm not sure there is like
(35:35):
best parents.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
You know, if you really love your kids and you
reflect on things once in awhile, then you're doing pretty
well.
You're right, yeah, otherwise,it's a contest and it's a
performance and it's and whoknows what's best.
I mean, it's just stumblingalong, hoping that more of the
time, you, you help each otherand like each other than the
(35:56):
other, than the opposite.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Susan, I have one really specific question.
Sure, and it has to do withdifferent personality types.
I love all the Myers-Briggspersonality indicators and stuff
like that.
My sisters and I, we lovetyping our kids and our family
and all of that.
But if you truly have, you knowyou have different
personalities with each child,as you said.
(36:19):
And then the daughters andsons-in-law come in and you not
only have differentpersonalities there, but they've
been maybe raised differently.
So now everything gets a littlebit more complicated with dials.
Can you touch a little bit onthat, because it's different
approaches for differentscenarios, I guess, and
(36:40):
sometimes that's rough.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
I think that's really key.
I think that's a reallyimportant point.
So one thing that I've learnedby having daughters-in-law and
now, you know, grandchildren isthat these other parents are
part of the package, which thankGod they are.
They have their own experiencesgrowing up, part of the package
which, thank God they are.
They have their own experiencesgrowing up.
(37:02):
I'll give you a very concreteexample.
It may not be the mostimportant, but it's an easy one
to talk about because it's soconcrete.
One of my daughters-in-law grewup with a very strong point of
view and a very strong sort oftradition of believing that
sugar was very bad, didn't eatsugar growing up.
Her parents believed in a verysort of I don't know what the
(37:22):
word would be they were verydiet conscious and very
interested in natural foods.
But not I am too.
Actually, I'm obsessed withcooking.
We're all huge eaters.
Huge cooks love healthy food,but I love sugar and I love to
bake, and my kids grew up on asteady diet of sweets, as did I.
In my most recent book, which isnot about this topic at all, I
(37:44):
started off talking about avisit to the candy store.
So, honestly, it's easy to talkabout because it's not quite so
loaded, or well, it is a littleloaded but it's not as
amorphous as some bigger,heavier emotional issue.
But it bothers mydaughter-in-law that often there
are sweets in the house, that Iget so excited over what I'm
(38:06):
going to bake, that her son haslearned that when he comes over
here there's a good chancethere'll be a cookie or
something.
And I wouldn't say that I'vehandled that that well.
And part of what I've grappledwith is that it's not just her,
it's not an idea or a beliefthat she sort of pulled out of a
(38:26):
magazine or a podcast.
It's how she was raised, yeah,yeah, and I have to respect that
and that's been a struggle forme actually.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
You were writing this article in 2013,.
Your husband's role.
Where was he in this wholeparenting dilemma and parenting
adult kids?
How did he feel, what did heshare with you and how did it
evolve?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
I would say that in our marriage like many marriages
of that era maybe not so muchanymore I was the more involved
parent.
I mean I don't know how else toput it, that's kind of blunt.
But he was a loving dad and hewas here and he was very
powerful, important force intheir lives.
But I was sort of the activeone, let's just say.
And he, by temperament, isquieter, he's slightly more
(39:11):
reserved and you know, he's alittle more at times disengaged.
You know all these words have agood side and a bad side.
So trying to convey the goodside and the bad side, and so I
don't.
He was pretty distraught overour son's pain Actually there
are a lot of ways in whichthey're quite alike and I think
it pained him.
(39:32):
But he never has felt theimpulse to to change things, to
fix things, to get involved.
I went to all theparent-teacher conferences.
I was mostly the one.
I once counted up how manytimes I went to the ER and it
was something like 48 times.
Me too yeah that's a terriblegender thing to say, but it's
(39:53):
true.
Yeah, true, more typical if youhave boys.
And so I was at more like I wasat 40 of those ER visits on my
own.
That is to say that I think hewas a little quieter and in some
ways maybe that was better.
At one point I wanted him tointercede with someone on behalf
of my son, an employer who haddone something terrible to my
(40:14):
son, unethical, and I I had.
I really had to push my husbandto do it and he really didn't
want to.
I'll never know, was he rightto be have the impulse to stay
out of it, or was he wrong and Iwas right to push him?
He did it.
Then he went and talked to thisperson to no avail, but at
least my son felt.
(40:35):
I thought my son felt supportedby us and protected by us,
which I thought at the time heneeded.
So that's where he was, andeven now he tends to take a
little bit more of a backseatbut on the other hand, also be a
little calmer, sort of take thelong view.
So that's how I would answerthat.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
So I want to ask you something about that.
I have a very similar husband.
What I sometimes do and I'dlove to know if you ever did
this or what your opinion is,because I'm a talker and I'm
most involved and they read myeyes and everything that you
said we could be twins.
We could be twins.
I sometimes have my husband saysomething that I think is
important to them, because theylisten to it more, because he
(41:17):
doesn't say that much.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Well, that's interesting.
First of all, I never wouldoccur to me to have those kinds
of thoughts.
I just have to be honest aboutthe budget.
I'm impressed, but I'd never dothat.
I'm always sure I can say itbetter, even when I can't.
I just don't know how to answerthat.
No, that was never me.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I should?
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I just feel like it's kind of like when he speaks
they listen.
When I speak, they're like hereshe goes again.
Yeah, you have a good dynamic.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
We have a slightly different dynamic.
There was a movie called theProposal.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I just oh, that's really such a silly movie.
But I've watched it too, and Ithink Betty White is in it.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
That's why we all watched it.
Well, so it just came up theother day in some memoriam.
But Mary Steenburgen says toher husband she at one point
she's mad at how her husband hastreated the daughter or the
son-in-law or whatever it is,and she says you have to make
this right.
And the husband he like goes,oh okay, and trudges over to
(42:20):
make it right.
And I remember feeling jealous,like thinking why can't I just
say to my husband, you, I shouldshut up and I can't fix it and
I shouldn't be trying to.
(42:42):
Or if I think I really havesomething to say, I have to say
it for myself.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Interesting yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
I have a question, Denise, real fast, Go ahead Val.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
And then I have one more, and then we're going to
wrap up Go ahead, val.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Oh boy, I have so many questions.
But, susan, what if you observethat somebody is hurting your
adult child, and I don't meanthat literally, but maybe
there's a controlling person intheir lives or something that's
impacting them and is pushingthem down a little bit?
Say, it's a brother and asister, okay, and they're both
(43:13):
adults, but one just always putsdown the other, puts down the
other, and it's making the otherone act a certain way.
Is there ever a time that youcould come in and try to gently,
let each see each other's pointof view, any kind of
involvement that way, or is thatreally dangerous?
Speaker 1 (43:29):
It's so funny that you bring this up now, because
my family is going throughsomething at several generations
that has to do with thisquestion.
My three sons are quite closewith each other, but that's not
to say they don't have tangles.
I have learned, sort of bybeing a sibling with a parent of
my own, that there's almost nogood way to get involved in that
(43:50):
.
So 95% of the time I just tryto listen to both.
When there's a tension or anupset or a hurt feeling or
something, some of the time theonly thing I feel I can say is
you two should talk.
Oh, that's good.
And then there's one littlepiece that I've learned over the
years that helps me, which isone thing you can do is pass on
(44:13):
good things.
So when one of my kidsappreciates or says something
wonderful about the other, I'mhappy to pass that on, because
that can only be good and theymay not be expressing those
things to each other.
How can it ever hurt to hearthat someone in your family
loved you or appreciatedsomething you did or felt loved
by you?
And sometimes you can add alittle, not to bring up sugar
(44:37):
again, but you can add a littlesugar to things by doing that.
It can only be good.
The one thing that you nevershould do is pass on bad things.
I just don't see how that everis good, exactly, and when your
kids are grown?
I mean, you guys are the onesthat were emphasizing the power
of stepping back and steppingaside and creating some distance
, and in this case, this is oneplace where I would
(45:00):
wholeheartedly agree with you.
They have to get good atworking out their relationships
with one another, so, unlessyou're saying something that
makes them feel better abouteach other, say nothing.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Bite your tongue.
Yeah, you were talking aboutyour son's living next door and
the daughter in law's livingnext door.
Two grandchildren living nextdoor, Actually, my neighbor
across the street.
Her daughter lives next doorand I'm very close to the little
grandkids.
They're my grandkids because Idon't have any.
But I always wonder how theother parents feel, like the
in-laws they're in your littlepod, Everyone's all together.
(45:33):
How do the other parents dealwith that, Like if I was the
parent that lived in?
You know you're in Williamstown, I assume, right?
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Well, South County of Berkshire County.
I live in New Marlborough.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
The in-laws are in California or whatever it might
be, and you're in your littlepod, growing so close to these
little kids and having thisgreat experience.
How do you deal with that?
And how do the girls deal withit with their parents?
And how do you?
Do you engage the in-laws at?
Speaker 1 (45:58):
all, do you have another two or three hours?
Well, I will say one thing.
So one of my daughters-in-lawher parents, live right nearby
so it's not quite as unequal orasymmetrical as you might think
and her, her mom is.
Her parents aren't married, buther mom is very involved, a
devoted grandmother and adevoted mom, and so that's nice,
(46:25):
because there's not quite theasymmetry that you might think.
My other daughter-in-law, herparents live about five hours
away and sometimes I do thinkthey each feel a little left out
.
Needless to say, I am acompletely besotted grandmother
and very I'd love to be withlittle kids and I love these
little kids.
So so, yeah, I think sometimesthat does create some tension
(46:47):
and I think my daughters-in-laware very alive to that and
probably have to negotiatethings of which I'm unaware,
like hurt feelings or feelingleft out.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
And Denise.
I'm on the I'm on the flip sideof that.
So I've got my oldest lives inBerkeley, california, with two
of our grandkids and they livefairly close to my
daughter-in-law's parents.
Of course I'd love to have themcloser, but what I tell myself
is if anybody else is going toget to be with that family and
those kids, I love that it'sthem.
I'm very lucky that I love themand I'm like, okay, they're
(47:20):
holding down the fort until weget to come visit.
That's such a great way ofthinking about it.
And again, just look at thebright side.
Not everybody has that, butthat's what gets me through.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
I think that's wonderful.
I want to just correct onething that you might think If
you have a neighbor who can seethis for yourself, it's paradise
when it's paradise, but notalways.
So having them right next doormeans that I have to see bad
things up close too.
I mean, everybody makes fun ofwhat happened when my middle son
(47:50):
, when they were going to have ahome birth and I could see the
light on in their room and Ijust knew that labor wasn't
progressing.
I was so beside myself that myfriend had to drive from
Williamstown an hour to get hereto drink scotch with me and
wait and we kept peeking out thewindow to see if the light was
still on.
It was horrible If you're not astandup comic.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
you need to write a sitcom, Susan, but anyway.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
So what I mean is it's a mixed bag, and then when
we are not getting longer, I putmy foot in my mouth or there's
tension.
It's kind of awful.
It's right up in our, you know,everybody's right up in each
other's business and it'spainful.
There's very little distance,you know.
I told you my youngest son.
He lives in New York, a coupleof hours away, and we're quite
(48:38):
close and we talk a lot, butsometimes I only hear about a
bad thing after it's happenedand things are OK.
And that has its own positiveside.
I'll give you an example.
This morning I got a text fromone of my sons saying that
school had been canceled daycarebecause of the snow.
There's a lot of snow where weare today and I had to write
(48:59):
right away and say well, I can'thelp because I'm doing a
podcast and then I have ameeting and what I mean to say
is it is paradise a lot of thetime, but it's not simple.
Let me put it that way.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Okay, we always end our episodes, susan, with our
guests giving two or threetakeaways that they want our
listeners to take away from theepisode.
Can you provide those for us?
I can try.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Okay, I'll say two.
One is, I've already said,think less of your relationship
with your grown kids as a jobthat you can perfect or do right
or wrong, and think of it moreas a relationship that you hope
that you and your kid will get alot out of.
Relationships are supposed tobe a source of pleasure and
(49:46):
support and sustenance, andthat's true for your kids as
well as for your friendships oryour partners.
So that's one.
It's a relationship, not a job.
And the second is a piece ofgood news, which is your kids go
on changing and growing and theway they are that when they're
22 or 25 is not the way they'llalways be.
And the wonderful thing I'velearned is, if you're lucky,
(50:09):
they keep getting stronger.
They still can figure out newways of coping, they can still
find new strength, they getstronger and their life branches
out.
And a final piece of good newswith any luck they develop other
close relationships that kindof bear some of the weight of
their pain.
So when your kid is 24 andthey're going through a lot of
(50:32):
pain, you may be their mainsource of support.
But when they're 30 or 35 andthey're going through some pain,
with any luck.
They have a very close friendor a partner who also can share
some of that role with you.
Wow, that's really amazing.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
I'm going to say thanks to both of you, val,
thanks for co-hosting with me.
It's been wonderful I had agreat time, thank you.
Susan, I am so glad I gave youa ring while I was in New York
City and you answered the phone,because this has been such a
delight and you've been funnyand informative and everything
else.
Don't you agree, val yeah?
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Thank you for so many examples and anecdotes.
It turns a very difficult topicvery concrete.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Well, it was a pleasure to talk to you both.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Okay, go hug those grandbab.
Okay, take care, bye-bye.
Well, that's a wrap.
Thank you, susan for joiningand Val, thanks again for
co-hosting.
Ellen will be back soon.
I think Susan brought somegreat levity to this whole topic
of building relationships withour adult kids.
I hope her humor and insighthelps us all get through the day
(51:40):
and our journey.
Remember, it's not a job, it'sa relationship.
There's so much more coming upon Bite your Tongue, season 2.
We're going to try to bringmore racial and economic
diversity into the podcast, withstories from many men and women
who've walked the walk andtalked the talk.
So stay tuned.
Thank you again to ConnieFisher, our audio engineer, and
(52:01):
remember to send your questionsfor our special we're On it
episodes.
Follow us on social media anduntil next time, remember,
sometimes you just have to biteyour tongue.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com