September 5, 2025 • 43 mins
Have you ever sent an impulsive text when feeling rejected by your adult child? That desperate "What did I do wrong?" message that you later regretted? You're not alone. The relationship between parents and their adult children exists on a delicate continuum—from deep connection to painful estrangement and everything in between.
Dr. Rachel Glik, relationship specialist and author of "A Soulful Marriage," joins us to unpack the complex dynamics of parent-adult child relationships. With remarkable insight, she reveals how our own emotional needs can unknowingly sabotage these precious connections. "We can't be a parent when we're depending on our child," she explains, highlighting how our generation's child-centered parenting style paradoxically created more self-centered adults.
The conversation delves into practical wisdom about building emotional maturity—that essential capacity to hold your own pain while simultaneously creating space for your child's perspective. Dr. Glik shares illuminating examples from her own experience as a mother and grandmother, demonstrating how to navigate differences without becoming emotionally reactive. She offers specific guidance on welcoming your child's partner, setting healthy boundaries, and finding the balance between independence and connection.
Perhaps most powerfully, Dr. Glik reframes relationship challenges as opportunities for profound personal growth. "Put energy into seeing what you're experiencing as happening for you, not to you," she advises. This shift in perspective transforms painful interactions into gateways for self-awareness and healing. Whether you're feeling distant from your adult children or simply want to strengthen your connection, this conversation provides compassionate, practical tools for moving forward with both wisdom and love.
Everyday Texans. Extraordinary Stories.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
We can't be a parent when we're depending on our
child, even as an adult.
We're here to nurture theirunique individuality in the
world and nurture the connection.
But you can nurture theconnection in a balanced way,
even with a lot of differences.
Especially when they feelsupported, they're much more
willing to find that commonground.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hey everyone, when they feel supported, they're
much more willing to find thatcommon ground.
Speak with experts, shareheartfelt stories and get timely
advice addressing topics thatmatter most to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when,
to bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of Bite your
Tongue, the podcast.
I promised you, my listeners,that we will be bringing you
only the best interviews, andtoday is another one.
(01:08):
On our last interview with DrGibson, I shared the joy of
welcoming my first grandchild inApril.
Spending three weeks with mydaughter and her husband was
mostly magical, though therewere moments when I felt I may
have overstayed my welcome.
I have sort of a strongpersonality.
Anyway, during my visit, I cameacross a compelling article in
(01:29):
the Wall Street Journal by DrRachel Glick, titled what I Tell
Mothers who Feel Rejected bytheir Adult Children.
While I didn't feel rejected,the article resonated with me,
prompting me to invite Dr Glickto join us on this podcast and
for this conversation.
She's a relationship specialist.
(01:49):
It always seems theserelationship specialists,
whatever the relationships theyare dealing with, are the best
guests on this podcast.
She's a licensed professionalcounselor in St Louis with a
doctorate in counseling and amaster's in psychology.
She's been featured on NBC News, has published article in the
Wall Street Journal, psychologyToday and CNBC.
(02:09):
One producer said and I lovethis Dr Glick gets to the heart
of what we deal with every day,our relationships with ourself
and with others.
And remember, dr Gibson talkeda lot about that too, our
relationship with ourselves, andthat's what we all need,
because talked a lot about thattoo, our relationship with
ourselves.
And that's what we all need,because, of course, each of us,
at one time or another, havestepped over the line with our
(02:33):
adult children.
So let's get started.
Welcome, dr Glick.
I'm so happy to have you withus.
I was so taken by your Mayarticle in the Wall Street
Journal.
There was a headline and thenthere was a subheading and it
said I witness a lot of pain asa therapist, but there is
nothing like the sorrow of amother estranged from her child.
And I feel like estrangementcan be a lot of things.
(02:56):
It doesn't completely mean thatyour child's just not talking
to you.
I think mothers, and probablyfathers, feel this pain even if
they're not estranged, as theiradult children are setting more
boundaries as they pull away andstart their own lives, as some
of their life choices arecompletely different than
anything they were raised with.
(03:16):
So I don't want to stickcompletely with estrangement.
I want to talk mostly aboutrelationship with estrangement,
in and out of it.
Does that make sense.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I think it's very insightful because the
experience is much more on acontinuum.
There's this sense of rejection, of letting go, of feeling cut
off in a certain way.
Even if you're close andconnected in other ways, you can
still have this feeling of lossand of fear that you will lose
the connection as well.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think that's so true.
So I want to start with youtelling us how you got involved
in working in this area, and Iwant you to share a little bit
about your book, because Ididn't mention in the intro and
I'd like everyone to know aboutyour new book.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yes, people start to come to me based on the need,
and the need started growingwith.
That's how I became arelationship counselor and
that's what the basis of asoulful marriage is the four
pillars to thriving in yourrelationship or healing your
relationship and that was basedon the need, was there.
The couples just were coming,and then a similar trend has
(04:21):
been going on in the past 30years and increasing more
recently, with adult childrenand or the parent or both of
them needing help to navigatetheir relationship.
I remember being much morecareful with my own children as
they were becoming grown and wewelcomed new their partners into
the family, because I watchedso many ruptures.
Based on how that was handled,I started writing blogs about it
(04:43):
.
I have a before I wrote for theWall Street Journal.
I wrote a few things as well inmy own personal blog.
I go on Fox 2 in St Louis, andso I was doing several segments
and they just got picked up bythe algorithms and I started
getting phone calls.
This was maybe about eightyears ago started getting phone
calls from people all over thecountry, even all over the world
, like desperate for help withit.
(05:03):
It just became a more growingspecialty and there's so much
potential for growth thathappens in these ruptures and so
it's a passion of mine to help,partly because it's so painful
and wanting to help in any way Ican with the kind of pain.
But I also see it as thisgateway for growth that people
wouldn't really pursue personalor spiritual growth if it wasn't
(05:26):
for this pain they're in.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I think that hits the nail right on the head, because
I feel that when I interviewedLindsay Gibson, she talked a lot
about self-awareness and that'sall about you're continuing to
grow.
You sort of hit your 60s or 70sand you start thinking I've
done it all, but really you haveto continue to develop yourself
.
When you're changingrelationships with whoever it is
around you, when your husbandretires, when your children
(05:50):
marry, everything changes in allof those kinds of ways.
So I love this idea of it's agateway.
You feel this pain and youcan't just sit on it.
You need to work on it.
So you said something recentlyand this wasn't something I was
even going to talk about, butyou said when your kids started
taking on spouses and people youtalk to and the way things
could be ruptured.
(06:11):
When that starts happening,tell us what you think are the
best ways.
When your child brings homesomeone that's going to be their
new spouse, welcoming to thefamily, what are the ways that
works and what are the ways thatdon't work?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
family.
What are the ways that worksand what are the ways that don't
work?
It's a very, very sensitivesubject because you have to also
, you know, not be totally onthe side.
If you're concerned aboutsomething, you also have a place
as a parent to maybe share aconcern.
But generally speaking, youwant to start with curiosity and
have an awareness of empathyfor what it's like to come into
(06:43):
a family.
Try to remember what it waslike for you if you were one of
those in that stage of your life, so that you can really make
the person feel welcome.
That is the main thing thatyou're happy that they're there,
you're interested in the personand that you also respect a
gradual shift in that person,kind of becoming more important
to your child than you are interms of.
(07:06):
Don't assume that becauseyou've always done it this way
as a family, you have to factorin now, especially as the
partner becomes more part oftheir lives, you know how does
that work for them also.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, I think that's very, very true.
My kids tell me I act I'm toocurious, I ask too many
questions, and I think the onething you said that really
resonated with me is that personbecomes more important in their
life than you are, and that'shard as a parent of an adult
child, and it's not all ornothing.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Like I was saying at the beginning of this particular
question.
It also isn't to be solaissez-faire that you don't
have conversations about it, butyou really want to have those
conversations to ask them whatthey think, how this might look
down the road, what is importantto you and how can you see
yourself growing with thisperson, right?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
that's really good.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Are there things in your relationship that you do
think you would want to talkabout that might be a potential
clash in the future, but do youwant to also be a sounding board
?
And the more accepting and lessjudgmental and less influencing
we are of them, that wecommunicate, that we trust them
to make good decisions, thenthey tend to feel more
(08:16):
comfortable to process with us.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And that makes sense.
That's a hard, hard thing to do.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
It is extremely hard and each child is unique.
So, like my firstborn, you haveto wait for her to do.
It is extremely hard and eachchild is unique.
So, like my firstborn, there'slike you have to wait for her to
ask you know like I'm the sameway with my firstborn but my
second one, I can almost sayanything.
Exactly, I think that is kindof common All right.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
So something you said earlier about the increase in
this and you say in your articlethat shifts in how we talk
about mental health the whiningdivides in politics and culture
seem to be inspiring a growingnumber of young people to drop
any relationship they see astoxic.
So I'd like you to expand onthat.
And what's toxic?
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah Well, it's like a word that we hear a lot, Right
, that it's not growth promoting, it doesn't.
You don't feel validated in therelationship where you feel
that you know it's emotionallydistressing and everybody's
unique with the level that theycan tolerate of that.
It can be like triggering.
If there's, you know, trauma orof messaging you got growing up
(09:17):
that made you feel less than orunloved or not right with who
you are.
Then it also being in anenvironment environment if any
criticism can be received by theadult child as more reminder of
shame and feeling less than,and so that becomes a toxic
environment.
It can be the way that personhandles their emotions the
parent there's a lot of parentswho unfortunately have
(09:40):
intergenerational trauma andthey have their own kind of
harmful ways of trying to copewith their emotions that they
are having trouble regulatingand that can come across as very
and violence a little strong,but like really loud and
boisterous and scary and out ofcontrol.
That can feel toxic.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Why are we seeing such an increase in this?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
I think that there's more like anecdotally increases.
I don't think the research yetis showing this, but they're
working.
I think they're going to see itthe more the research unfolds.
I think the culture of therapyhas a lot of pluses, but there's
also a shadow side of therapy.
But a lot of the pluses oftherapy is that a lot of adult
children are normalized to go totherapy and they reparent
(10:22):
themselves and they individuateand they differentiate and they
start to have somebody holdspace for them, for them to you
know, good therapy helps youparent yourself, reparent
yourself, but you have somebodywho is helping you to understand
what it looks like to betreated in a way that feels good
and what healthy boundaries arein a relationship, and
(10:43):
empowering you to make decisionsin your life that feel good and
what healthy boundaries are ina relationship, and empowering
you to make decisions in yourlife that feel good, for you to
be your own unique individual,whereas a lot of families are
trying to still make people bethe way you want them to be.
That's human nature, because wewant to have that closeness and
you think it's the right thing,and there's a lot of lack of
self-awareness.
So I think therapy is a bigfactor in this.
That is kind of a tipping pointof individuals adult children
(11:07):
in particular realizing thatokay, there is another way and I
can choose my life.
I can choose what feels goodfor me.
I don't have to keep acceptingbehavior or culture or scenarios
that don't serve me well.
And then the shadow side is itcan go too far, in my opinion,
and it makes you moreself-focused and not considering
(11:30):
the context of how it affectseveryone else and the grace and
the mercy that we're all on ajourney.
Sometimes therapy canoveremphasize personal pain and
overlook the context of thewhole system and the humanness
and the fragility and thevulnerability of every human
being.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I love that because I see that a lot.
It's a lot of the me generationand I think our generation of
parenting also contributed tothat, because we were all about
their feelings and I've saidthis in other episodes and I
think we're wondering why thisis happening, but that's exactly
how we parented.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It's so true.
So it's a therapy culture ispositive, but it has totally.
We have more child-centeredfamilies now, which has some
positives started in the 60s andit's grown, but it makes kids
more like self-centered, and Idon't mean this judgmentally,
it's an affliction we've giventhem.
I remember once when we studiedthe wisdom of Kabbalah my
(12:27):
husband and I and that's wherewe learned a lot of these tools
to help kids feel empowered andhave a sense of earnership at a
young age and respect theirparents not because we need the
respect, but because they gettheir energy from their source.
And I remember that there was ajazz concert that my son was
going to have that they changedthe date, which then became a
conflict with an event I washosting to help other people
(12:47):
learn, you know, how to improvetheir lives, and I felt such a
pull.
I was being advised by myteacher, my Kabbalah teacher,
that no, this is an opportunityto teach, that it's not just
about them, that they canactually help support you as
well.
I mean, he was a teenager, ayoung teen, and I saw how much
we can actually teach childrenselfishness.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yeah, we really can.
I think we've done a lot ofthat.
So in your article, I love thestory you told about this one
mother, Marjorie.
I think we all could relate toMarjorie she was feeling distant
from her son and suddenly shestarted doing all these
impulsive texts.
I didn't sleep last night.
I'm really worried about younot talking to me.
What did I do?
That was wrong?
You know, blah, blah, blah.
And there's not a mother in theworld that hasn't wanted to
(13:30):
send those texts.
It's the holding back.
You talk about strength, and Iwant to get into this whole
place of strength.
How do we stop ourselves?
We're hurting so bad.
Maybe they've said something onthe phone that was either
hurtful or didn't resonate.
You don't want to call back,but you want to say what's going
on.
But mothers have this kind ofyou know, let go go to.
(13:52):
So how do we build this?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
strength.
Yes, and it's really aboutbeing in two places at the same
time.
It's a tall order to ask ofourselves as mothers, because
there's such a deep soul to soulconnection that there is an
intertwining of self on somelevel even more with mothers.
Many people report this in lotsof different approaches.
So, yes, we feel this onenessand deep connection and sense of
(14:14):
purpose and as part of who weare, and then all of a sudden we
have to start letting go, whichis like unthinkable, like what
do you mean?
But one of the things that ishelpful is to start, even when
they're younger, if you can, tostart detaching and have your
own sense of self and catchyourself with how often you're
thinking about them or worryingabout them or basing your
(14:35):
well-being on whether they'reokay with you or in general, and
so that's kind of a slowtrickle have other things, other
energy you bring into your lifethat's independent of them, and
then from there, I think it'salso really important to get
support, whether it's in therapyor a spiritual path or
friendships or reading orlistening to this podcast that
you really start developing more.
(14:56):
It can be called emotionalmaturity that sounds a little
cold, but where you start toexpand your capacity to hold
pain and embrace pain and be inthe discomfort of pain.
And because we are such a, wehave two parts of us.
We have an ego and we have,like, a higher part of us.
You can call the core self orthe soul, but the ego is all
about instant gratification.
(15:16):
If I'm feeling uncomfortable,I'm going to fix it now and that
gets us into a lot of troubleso building and cultivating our
capacity, the muscle for sittingwith it.
I'm uncomfortable right now.
I like to focus for me on mybody.
What is my body feeling?
Oh, I feel this sinking inside.
I think you know.
Maybe it's shame, maybe I feelless than, or I'm afraid I'm
(15:39):
going to be alone.
Like we can go to suchirrational places with one, like
funny ending to a phone call,or like leaving, needing to
leave early, or it isn't what Iexpected, or a change in plans
from our children because itdidn't work for them and we had
this idea of how this wholeevent was going to go.
It can create irrational, liketrauma almost, or irrational
(16:00):
fears and emotional pain.
Don't judge yourself for that,but you want to listen to what
is?
It Be curious, like there's thestory and then there's what is
the story about?
Give me an example.
Give me an example.
Something is coming up in mywith that just happened.
Okay, my, I have a grandson now, so it's similar to you, right,
he's two, so I'm a little bitmore seasoned.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah, you're much further, much further ahead than
I am.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yes.
So we were invited them to comewith us to go to you know a
resort town in Michigan for thefourth and, which is unusual,
that they were able to go andthat you know my daughter and
her wife and our grandson aregoing to come.
Now some things have changed intheir life and we're getting
little messages that I don'tthink they're going to come.
You know it's not looking likeit's going to support them in
their life.
It's a small thing but it canfeel like a big thing.
(16:47):
That can create a lot ofproblems in relationships when
you don't first sit with howthat feels relationships, when
you don't first sit with howthat feels Like.
I noticed that I felt sad, likeI had this whole vision.
I was watching other.
The last time we were there Iwas watching other people at the
beach with their families.
You know I had this wholeschema and how disappointing
that would be for me.
So I had to go through theprocess of taking care of that
(17:09):
myself and not centering myfeelings and my needs and
expectations and putting them onmy daughter when she's telling
me this, especially notinitially.
So then I just listened.
Within it's that self-awarenessand that self-soothing.
I honored the feeling I honoredthat yeah, that would be
disappointing.
I also honored the perspectivepart of me that knows like, in
(17:31):
the scheme of things, this isnormal, this is healthy and this
is also probably for the goodfor you.
Maybe it's good for you and myhusband to have more time
together, or maybe this is alsogood for me because I'm learning
how to be flexible even more.
And so you know, looking, justhaving the mindset that I'm
looking for not seeing why thisis happening to me, but how this
(17:56):
is happening for me.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So moving away from your own ego, really, because
your own ego was hurt a littlebit.
My ego was hurt, yeah, and Istruggle with that a lot.
I just think why aren't theythinking about me?
This was really hurtful.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yes, exactly, and things have changed.
I know, when my kids were born,my mother was like right there.
But when my grandson was born,they wanted space.
It's so different, and so I hadto deal with all of those
feelings.
But if I didn't work on theemotional maturity part of
myself and I put my feelings andmy needs and I centered myself,
I would have pushed them awayand it would have been selfish,
(18:32):
it would have been hurtful tothem, and then I can't be there
when they do need me, becausethey feel unsafe to come close,
because I'm going to make itabout me.
So, the more we can like, holdspace for them and and of course
, at some point yes, it's amutual and you want to share
your feelings and needs too.
It's not about.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
How do you do that, though?
I mean, I think that's thehardest thing.
I don't mean to interrupt you,but, as you're saying this and
I've had similar situations andI've worked on myself my
emotional maturity but what Ireally want to say is get with
the program.
I'm your mother, suck it up.
I'm not perfect.
Remember when you said you werecoming?
We've put deposits down in thehotel.
(19:11):
What?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
are you thinking?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I mean I would never say that, but there's a part of
me that wants to say what is theproblem here?
So when can you start saying alittle bit about how you're
feeling?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Well, if you're in a rift and you're in a rupture,
and then not at all Never.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
And there's a lot of like.
I always say like your adultchild is the customer, you know,
like, even in couples, likeEveryone says that I can,
everyone says that yes, andthere's a step-by-step process.
That's not forever and it's notall the way all the time.
So it's really subtle, thesenuances.
That's why I like, that's whyit's so important to have more
people who understand that it's.
It's not just your classicfamily counseling situation.
(19:49):
There's so many nuances to this, so many.
So when there's a strong ruptureand it's similar with a couple
either, the partner who'spulling away, just it's not fair
.
We have to let go of logic andjustice.
We have to go with just what amI being called to right now,
for the sake of thisrelationship and for the sake of
(20:10):
my growth?
To trust that you're where youneed to be.
It's a choice you make, it's anaxiom.
You know that.
Like to choose to trust thatyou're where you need to be,
it's a choice you make, it's anaxiom.
You know that.
Like to choose to trust thatthe universe is a friendly place
and that, even if I don't likewhere I am, there's something of
benefit for me and otherwise Iwouldn't be here.
Something to put it back intobalance in myself and my whole
family system and my lineage.
(20:30):
And so you know, trying toembrace it and not blame, and
trying and stop rejecting it, bein the present moment.
And then, when it comes toholding space for for the one
who is feeling like they need topull away, is, first of all, as
a parent.
There's a lot of approachesthat appreciate how we are.
We always came first, we werealways their source, so it's
(20:54):
appropriate for us to hold spacefor them, and when there's a
rupture or when we're navigatingtheir unique individuality, we
really want to overcome ourego's propensity to think that
we created them for me.
No, we created them for theworld.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's a great line.
That's a great line.
So what I'm hearing here thisjust came to my mind you're
valuing the relationship overyourself.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
And their own development and looking at what
this could be for your owndevelopment.
And then you're in and you haveto repair.
Like you know, it depends ifit's, if it's like day-to-day
stuff and you want to handle itappropriately.
You you'd still similar, butnot as extreme, where you still
want to hold space and listen tothem first.
So tell me more about what'sgoing on.
Yeah, like, yeah, you're, I cansee you have so much going on.
(21:40):
Tell me what you're thinking andthen let them know that you can
hold them in a way that you'renot going to make make it
crowded in the room where theycan't share their feelings with
you because you're going to beputting yours in the room so
loud that they can't even sharethemselves or they're going to
feel guilty.
You know that they're makingupsetting.
You want to liberate them, tolive the life for them and they,
(22:01):
paradoxically, will want tocome closer to you.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Can I say that one more time If?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
you, if they if, if, if children, and if you haven't
overgiven that's another sidething that overgiving is a
problem in our society but ifthey feel the genuine sense that
you can resist the urge to makeyourself the center and make it
about you and what you need andyou're not guilting them, and
they really feel that you wantwhat's best for their well-being
, their unique path, and theyfeel spacious in that way, they
(22:28):
feel safe, that they can reallyturn to you because you're not
going to make it crowded andmake too many needs in the room
and not their own, then paradoxis they'll feel safe with you
and they're going to come to youmore.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Interesting.
Okay, you sort of slippedsomething in there.
I want to hear more about Toomuch giving.
I see that all the time and I'mguilty.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Exactly.
But I want to get to that injust a moment.
Okay, all the time and I'mguilty, so I want to get to that
in just a moment.
Okay, I want to say is after aperiod of time and a shorter
scale.
If it's a day-to-dayinteraction, it's a longer scale
.
If you have a rupture or ifthere's.
If there, if you're hearingsome grievances, if you're
noticing some like little signsof pulling away, you want to be
even more careful.
It becomes a little moreone-sided for a while, but then
(23:13):
eventually then you can have amore mutual relationship, like
what I like with my situationwith my daughter.
It all happened very quickly,but she brought up again that
she wasn't sure that she wasgoing to able to come.
But there was an opening that Icould share a little bit about
me, because it was in thecontext of something else,
because of how much I had missedour grandson because we'd been
on a different trip.
(23:33):
I was seeing other kids on thebeach and I was wanting it to be
Leo and you know and so and sofrom there it was in like a
lighter way and I said it withlike a both and like I know you
need to do what you need to do.
But, oh my gosh, there's a partof me that will be so sad if
you're not there and I just youknow.
But, but, but it's still leftroom for her to have her own to
(23:54):
be supported.
And then there's something moreserious.
You've had more serious thingscome up, but first it's still
important for me to try and I'mnot perfect at it, but to put
her out and make sure she feelsfully heard, and there's lots of
tools for doing that, and it'sa whole thing in its own thing
in its own.
And then, when you share yourown perspective, you want to be
(24:15):
careful to share it in a waythat doesn't guilt them, that
doesn't make them feelresponsible for your feelings,
but that lets them know thatyou're a human being too, and
this is what it's like for you.
And ask them, make a requestfor what I would like, also like
.
Would this work?
This is what would make me feelgood.
So there is room for that, butyou have to wait your time.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
So you just said I want to get to the giving, but
you also just said there's awhole bunch of tools for making
them feel heard.
Can you share a couple of them?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Actually, in my book I have chapters on this and I'm
hoping to do some more writingon this subject as well, but for
now, in a soulful marriage,there's four pillars, and I'm
working on four pillars forhealing, estrangement, but some
of the same pillars will be thecase, and in this case, pillar
two is called growth, and thatpillar is about how you use your
(25:06):
friction to grow, but to do so,you need to learn how to
communicate soulfully orcommunicate in a way that
creates compassion and healing,and so it's a lot about empathy.
It's a lot about reflectingback what you've heard
communicate soulfully orcommunicate in a way that
creates compassion and healing,and so it's a lot about empathy.
It's a lot about reflectingback what you've heard.
It's a lot about this emotionalmaturity and self-awareness
that you can be with your painin the one hand and hold space
to hear another person'sperspective at the same time.
(25:27):
And there are specific toolsfor that, and I lay it out.
I go through sample dialoguesand it's one of the hardest
things to do.
It's like climbing MountEverest, but we're capable of it
.
We really are.
But it takes a tremendouscommitment and you get better at
it.
I do it in my own merit.
It takes a potential,disconnect, heaviness, like
(25:48):
unsafe feeling, frustration,powerless feeling into
breakthroughs when you canreally feel heard and and create
a safe environment for thedeeper.
What's the story really abouthere?
It makes perfect sense with mydaughter and and with my son,
but even more with my daughter.
She's a therapist too.
So we process and so we'll havethese points of friction and
(26:10):
we're hearing each other, but wewait and we go to coffee and
we'll sit down and we take turnsand then eventually we start to
see the things we share incommon of what we're both
working on and why this is inour life.
Looking for the meaning, whichis the sixth stage of grief, and
that's an important one thatyou look for.
Where's the growth?
Where's the meaning?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Okay, can we go to the too much giving?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Giving.
So it's kind of similar to whenI gave this, told you the story
about our son and the jazzconcert.
My inclination was to findsomebody else to run the event.
I have to be at every singleevent of my son, or he's not
going to feel loved.
I'm not going to.
You know, I didn't want to missit, of course either.
In that moment it would havebeen overgiving, like that's of
time, that's of energy, it's oftime, energy, resources, and so
(26:58):
the idea is that Can I ask you aquestion here how do you judge?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
So?
I think of that situation asthe jazz concert.
Okay, Sometimes it's not goingto really matter to the kid if
you miss the soccer game or missthe jazz concert.
But how do you judge?
He's 12 years old.
How old was he at this time?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I think he was 15.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
15 years old.
I think it's hard to judge whatis that most meaningful
experience for them, that theyreally want you there for, and
then I think, you can make asacrifice, but it's hard to know
what that is, Because maybe atthat point you chose to do the
event and he later he's 24 nowsaying the thing that hurt me
(27:37):
the most was you didn't come tomy dinner.
You weren't there because I hadworked so hard on my flute or
whatever it was and you choseyour work over me and it still
haunts me mom.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yes, well, it is case by case.
I'm so glad you asked thequestion because it depends.
I went to everything I wouldsupport his travel.
He went to a camp for hispercussion.
I went to visit him at the camp.
So my bank of goodwill waspretty high, it was pretty full.
But if that happened to havebeen an exceptionally important
event, I would have talked tohim about it and I would find
(28:11):
out how important it was to him.
If it was really and I wouldknow if it was really that
important, I would haveabsolutely found somebody else.
But in the context of thethings, it was a big concert but
it was just.
It was another big concert outof many.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Right?
No, I know, I'm just thinking,not that situation in particular
.
But I see, particularly in ourgeneration of parents with
grandkids, with kids, oh, I'llbe there, I'll bring you a meal.
When do you need me to pick upthe grandkid?
I'll cancel everything thisafternoon so I can be there for
you.
I'll take care of the kids forfive days a week, totally
forgetting about ourselves.
That seems like overgiving tome too.
(28:44):
And what's the repercussion ofthe overgiving?
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Yes and the overgiving usually starts
earlier.
We feel we're responsible forour children's happiness.
We're not.
We're here to create anenvironment for them to create
their own and to teach themcause and effect.
I learned this from studyingwith the Kabbalah Center Like
this changed our life so muchwith how we parent it.
So this is a lot of what we'redealing with in.
Estrangement is really theeffect of first of all, there's
(29:09):
a lot of things changing insociety.
I don't have rapid rate, butalso it's the effect of how
things were handled, the dynamicat home.
So overgiving can be not havingthem have earnership, of
helping in the house and seeingthat mom and dad are also humans
and they need support too.
Or having them earn like ifthey want something extra, then
what can they do to earn it, andthat things aren't just given
(29:29):
to them.
You want to give them the tasteof transformation, the taste of
putting skin in the game.
It's a gift we give themBecause you end up.
The paradox is you start toresent the person giving to you
when you don't feel that.
You feel empty inside and youresent it's unconscious.
But you resent the persongiving to you and you think
they're not giving you enoughwhen you don't.
So our job as parents is tocreate a sense of earnership
(29:51):
Like enough.
When you don't so, our job asparents is to create a sense of
earnership.
Like you know, we had our kidslike doing laundry early on when
we learned this, or or eventhough we could have afforded to
buy their car insurance, we hadthem work so they could buy
their car insurance working inthe summer.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Now we're in it.
You know, now we're talking toparents of adult children that
may have not done all of this.
They messed up the whole thing.
We did everything for them, wewere made sure they were happy.
We felt like our happiness was,or their happiness was, on our
shoulders.
And we see ourselves continuingthis in their adult life, but
feeling less and lessappreciated.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yes, Well, it is harder the later stage it in.
It's like the fruit is alreadya bitter piece of fruit, but you
still can make change.
Families are dynamic, Life isdynamic.
So you start to make littletweaks.
You still need to hear them.
Dynamic.
So you start to make littletweaks.
You still need to hear them,though you still need to hold
space for them.
That doesn't change.
(30:39):
But you start to honor yourselfand you start to listen first
to what would be a good balancefor me.
What kind of grandmother orgrandfather or mother or
father-in-law or adult parent,parent of adult child, do I want
to be, and what else in my lifeis important that I might be
neglecting?
We absolutely hurt ourselvesand everyone we want to help and
support when we neglectourselves.
(31:00):
So that's why pillar one of mybook is responsibility we're
responsible for our ownhappiness and well-being and
pillar three is priority, whichis prioritizing your
relationship with your spouse.
So both of those are relevant.
With adult children you canstill find your tendency.
I do a lot of writing on howmuch we put the kids first over
the marriage and we're thesource, and so it's so important
(31:21):
to nurture, for everybody'ssake, that relationship.
So when I was a first earlygrandmother, I was going above
and beyond and I still like todo that, but we've tweaked it.
Where I don't physically stretchmyself like I did before I was
getting sick, I realized that I,in desire to be this amazing
grandmother and be so close.
I wasn't balancing andfortunately my daughter is so
(31:44):
supportive and she wants me totake care of myself, and so I
tweaked it and I, you know youcan start to make small shifts
to change a dynamic little bitsof it, and sometimes you might
even need to explain it withreassuring statements.
I call them.
I have a lot of that in thebook about reassuring statements
.
I want to be here all the timeand I want to do all of it, but
I realize that it's not good forme and then I will not be.
(32:06):
I can't show up as well for you.
That way your children don'tthink you're just like, you
don't care, or you know I justthis is an important time, kind
of golden years, with yourfather and I or whoever your
person is, and so you know I'mreally working to balance if
they're noticing a shift.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
That's interesting because even back at the very
beginning, when we startedtalking about taking care of
yourself and you're notresponsible for your children's
happiness, and you're not happyonly when they are happy I mean,
you're a professional, I'm aprofessional there's a lot of
women that raise their children.
The children leave and thereisn't much left in their lives.
(32:47):
Okay, and I wonder how they canhelp themselves, because that's
a group.
I really and it's not thatthey're weak or what they've
done hasn't been marvelous andwonderful, but it feels very
empty when the children leaveand start developing their own
lives.
They're in their sixties, theirseventies, and I get a lot of
letters from people like thisand I just don't know what to
say or who to refer them to,because I feel their pain.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yes, yes, it is.
It is a direct causality that Isee that mothers who their
professional life was raisingthe children and taking care of
the home there's often a muchmore difficult transition to
being empty nesters and thenalso giving space for the.
This is a, you know, there areexceptions, of course.
I'm generalizing Right.
Right, I'm trend, I'm showingtrends, Right.
(33:32):
Also really difficult to let goand let them go live their
lives.
I'm meeting with one woman.
She said but my daughters aremy best friends and I'm like, oh
, that's already right there,Not to judge that.
You start getting attached tothe outcome, where you're
centering your feelings and yourneeds.
We don't realize how much weare bringing children in to
(33:52):
think of them, to serve us.
We want them to serve theirlives, their soul, their world,
their place in the world.
So what I'm doing with thisindividual, this woman is slowly
working on making lists ofthings that bring her light,
that light her up, that are notabout her kids.
It doesn't have to be finding anew career or you know age I
think she's in her 60s.
(34:12):
Where is she not putting energyinto her friendships?
Because she's waiting for herdaughter and that's why she's so
upset that she's not wanting tolive the lifestyle that she
lives because she's depending onher too much.
So I would take small steps tosee what is in your life that
you can nourish, to create moreemotional independence for
(34:33):
yourself.
What lifts you up in terms ofthe arts or being in nature, or
being with certain people, orwhat kind of work can you do in
the world to add value to theworld that fills us up so much
to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
What I'm listening to now and I want to see that I
got this right in bothsituations.
I need to work on findingawareness in myself and
understanding myself and lettinggo of my ego when I'm talking
or interacting with my adultkids.
It's going to take the sameamount of work for me as it is
for someone who devoted theirwhole lives completely to their
(35:06):
kids.
Both situations take work iswhat I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
They do they do and for some, and for lots of
reasons, for some that's harderthan others.
It could be because you had allyour eggs in one basket.
It could also be that you havebipolar and so you have a hard
time regulating your emotions.
You know, like so many factorsthat come into play.
Or there's also we take thescheme of how we were raised and
we have these expectations ofhow our children and I we were
(35:30):
raised and we have theseexpectations of how our children
, and I believe in teachingchildren to respect their
parents, not again because weneed the respect, but because
they get energy from theirsource.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And what does that mean?
They get energy from theirsource.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So we will never.
They will are never the oneswho came first.
We always will be the ones whoeven if it's adoption, we were
the.
It was the thought that broughtthem to us and reared.
Adoption.
It was the thought that broughtthem to us and reared.
The respect part is likeanything that we appreciate.
We get energy from, we getblessing from it.
We get good things out of it.
And so this is something that isa sensitive thing to talk to
(36:04):
with adult children, but to theextent that they can do both at
the same time establish theirboundaries, but always with the
sense of honoring that theirparents gave them life, that
whatever their parents gave them, it behooves them to appreciate
that and to respect that.
It's not like a religious ormoral.
It's literally about energyflow.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
I can see that with my own mother.
She's gone now.
How so?
Well, I think there were lotsof things that bothered me as I
became a young adult and anolder adult and with my kids,
she loved me and she gaveeverything she had, and so,
whatever she was doing, I had towork around a little bit
because I honored her, I wasgrateful, and now that she's
(36:48):
gone I wish I would have donemore.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yes, I hear that so much.
So in my work with both theparents and the adult children,
it's something that I reallyaspire to carefully introduce.
Being in those two places atthe same time and sometimes it's
a timing thing they need tohave their own space for a while
.
It's developmental, they'reindividuating.
(37:12):
But you have to yes, but youhave to be careful not to have
it go on too long, because I seea lot of people regret it.
They have all these insightslater as they evolve and they so
wish they could have had moreof a sense of balance and more
closure and peace andforgiveness before they passed.
So it's just a very careful,sensitive dynamic.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Well, and I think something you said in your
article with the change inpolitics and culture and
everything changing so quickly,that's hard for a lot of us.
They have a whole different setof rules now for the way you
have to operate and it can beuncomfortable for them when you
step over them and you're withthem.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, exactly, and it's important for both sides to
be patient because we'relearning.
I've noticed my daughter softenand she's more educating now
versus criticizing, and when itcomes to politics and certain
views that are so different, itcan be helpful to really try to
nourish what you do connectaround.
(38:12):
We're more complex.
We're made up of many parts.
We have a tendency the ego ismore black and white in thinking
.
Duality is something more forpeople who keep developing and
grow spiritually and emotionally.
So I always try to encouragepeople to see if they can kind
of compartmentalize a bit andjust try to connect around what
(38:33):
they can connect around anddon't bring up the topics if
they can't come to terms.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
That makes perfect sense.
You mentioned and I can'tremember exactly in the article
how you said it, but you saidthat some adult children are not
as interested in repairing orbuilding the relationship, or
how did you say this?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
More in punishment.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yes, punishment, that's exactly what you said.
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yes.
So for some I think they mightstay there.
But it's stages.
Some are not in that stage ofseeing where we're all human,
and this is what I need to dofor you, because it's not
(39:14):
healthy for me.
But there isn't that animosityor that blame and that anger and
resentment that's dominatingand wanting to like hurt them
and not even consider theirfeelings.
Some are just still in an angrystage of grief as adult
children and they may also havea sense of they may have been
overgiven to and think thattheir pain is more important
than other people's pain.
So that's a maturity issue too,and so I see that can happen.
(39:36):
Hopefully is temporary and italso depends on the parent.
The parent can also be thatunhealthy themselves to be
around, and that's the extremecases that aren't the norm, but
that does happen.
Yeah, it's so sad, it is so sadand it's sad for everyone
because they're hurting too,even the parent who's unwell and
doing terribly harmful things.
It's still hurting, but theyjust they don't have the
(39:58):
emotional capacity to see that.
But when it comes to thepunishing part, sometimes it's a
stage where you're just so mad.
You just want them to hurtbecause you're hurting and you
just can't believe that they didthat to you or said that to you
or can't understand you.
And then often it's a stage andif people really are capable of
continuing to grow the adultchildren, then they can start to
(40:20):
soften and see that they reallyare doing the best they can.
And we just have to redefinethe relationship, restore the
relationship in a different kindof dynamic, even if it means a
little more space, to try tofind ways that you can find some
kind of connection that honorsyou as the adult child but also
is is considerate of thefeelings of the parent.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
But I want to add to that it takes work once again on
both sides.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
The parent can't just sit back and say I haven't done
anything, because there'salways takes two to tango it
does and a lot of parents arenot willing for to, to embrace
that self-awareness piece, thatself-reflection piece, and they
can only see the hurtfulbehavior of the child.
And that's where, even when Imeet with the parents who, who
can't even have any inroadsright now, it's gone too far,
(41:06):
and they, they won't evenrespond to them at all.
There's still a lot of work wedo together to help them unpack.
They just tell me a few thingsthat they think were really
innocuous and it was like no,that was actually that.
Actually it's a good news thatactually could justify in these
days, somebody cutting ties withyou.
So let's talk about that.
And then then we work on themost pillar too, which is growth
(41:28):
.
Like, well, how is this here tohelp you grow?
And and then take it from there.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, that's so important because whatever age
we are, we can continue to grow,and I think sometimes people
forget 60, 70, I've done all mygrowing, but really we have to
continue to grow and learn andbecome self-aware, because
relationships, life, everythingcontinues to change.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Absolutely.
We have everything to gain andif you have the capacity for it,
don't take it for granted.
Every single minute of yourlife Just self-reflect, to have
insight, to have the desire togrow, is one of the biggest
gifts we've been given.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
The desire to grow.
All right, we're going to wrapup and I think I told you, I
always ask my guests to leaveour listeners with two important
things you want them toremember.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
What would those two things be from you?
The first one is to put energyinto seeing what you're
experiencing.
The difficulty you'reexperiencing is happening to you
, happening for you, not to you.
That it's it's.
It's that to look for thebenefit and to look for it as a
you're being loved on some levelin the world, because this is
going to help you grow in someway or bring balance in some way
that you may not be able to seeright now.
(42:35):
And the second thing is I wouldencourage anyone listening to
awaken more self-love andself-compassion for, wherever
you are, that you're not alonein what you're going through,
whether it's this or some otherrelationship or something else
that you feel really stuck in orthat you feel really a lot of
pain around you know, the lastthing we need when we're going
(42:58):
through a hard time is to beatourselves up and shame all over
ourselves.
So I would just encourage youto start really working on
increasing your kindness toyourself.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Thank you very much.
Before we close, I want you togive one more shout out about
your book.
I know it's about marriage.
I think you know so much aboutrelationships.
So one quick shout out aboutyour book the name of it, where
they can get it, and that sortof thing.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Yes.
So Soulful Marriage, you canshow it.
You can show the book.
Oh yeah, I have it up here.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
So it's healing yourrelationship through
responsibility, growth, priorityand purpose, and I'm finding
more and more that this isrelevant for all relationships,
for single people, people whoare coupled, and your family,
your siblings, your workrelationships, similar concepts.
(43:42):
And you can find it on Amazon.
You can find it at Barnes Noble.
I have a website,drrachelglickcom, that shows, I
think, five different placesthat you can purchase the book.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Okay, great, I'll put that all in my episode notes.
So thank you, Rachel, fortaking the time and I hope you
have a great time in Michigan onthe water.
Enjoy your husband whether theycome or not whether they come
or not.
Okay, take care.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Thank you so much.
This has been such a delight.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Okay.
Well, that's a wrap.
Thank you so much, Rachel.
It was very informative.
You know her article, althoughon estrangement, this covered so
much more and I think the thingI pulled out of it the most was
we all really do need to workon taking care of ourselves,
finding things in our lives thatis not just about our adult
children.
(44:27):
This is really hard work, guys,but if you're in it for the
long run and want to win in thisgame, I think that's the way to
do it.
I want to thank Connie GornFisher, our audio engineer.
She always continues to makethese recordings wonderful.
Please write to us atBiteYourTonguePodcast at
gmailcom.
Follow us on social media andwe're looking for the next great
(44:50):
interview.
But remember, sometimes youjust have to bite your tongue.
We can't be a parent when we're depending on our
child, even as an adult.
We're here to nurture theirunique individuality in the
world and nurture the connection.
But you can nurture theconnection in a balanced way,
even with a lot of differences.
Especially when they feelsupported, they're much more
willing to find that commonground.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hey everyone, when they feel supported, they're
much more willing to find thatcommon ground.
Speak with experts, shareheartfelt stories and get timely
advice addressing topics thatmatter most to you.
Get ready to dive deep andlearn to build and nurture deep
connections with our adultchildren and, of course, when,
to bite our tongues.
So let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of Bite your
Tongue, the podcast.
I promised you, my listeners,that we will be bringing you
only the best interviews, andtoday is another one.
(01:08):
On our last interview with DrGibson, I shared the joy of
welcoming my first grandchild inApril.
Spending three weeks with mydaughter and her husband was
mostly magical, though therewere moments when I felt I may
have overstayed my welcome.
I have sort of a strongpersonality.
Anyway, during my visit, I cameacross a compelling article in
(01:29):
the Wall Street Journal by DrRachel Glick, titled what I Tell
Mothers who Feel Rejected bytheir Adult Children.
While I didn't feel rejected,the article resonated with me,
prompting me to invite Dr Glickto join us on this podcast and
for this conversation.
She's a relationship specialist.
(01:49):
It always seems theserelationship specialists,
whatever the relationships theyare dealing with, are the best
guests on this podcast.
She's a licensed professionalcounselor in St Louis with a
doctorate in counseling and amaster's in psychology.
She's been featured on NBC News, has published article in the
Wall Street Journal, psychologyToday and CNBC.
(02:09):
One producer said and I lovethis Dr Glick gets to the heart
of what we deal with every day,our relationships with ourself
and with others.
And remember, dr Gibson talkeda lot about that too, our
relationship with ourselves, andthat's what we all need,
because talked a lot about thattoo, our relationship with
ourselves.
And that's what we all need,because, of course, each of us,
at one time or another, havestepped over the line with our
(02:33):
adult children.
So let's get started.
Welcome, dr Glick.
I'm so happy to have you withus.
I was so taken by your Mayarticle in the Wall Street
Journal.
There was a headline and thenthere was a subheading and it
said I witness a lot of pain asa therapist, but there is
nothing like the sorrow of amother estranged from her child.
And I feel like estrangementcan be a lot of things.
(02:56):
It doesn't completely mean thatyour child's just not talking
to you.
I think mothers, and probablyfathers, feel this pain even if
they're not estranged, as theiradult children are setting more
boundaries as they pull away andstart their own lives, as some
of their life choices arecompletely different than
anything they were raised with.
(03:16):
So I don't want to stickcompletely with estrangement.
I want to talk mostly aboutrelationship with estrangement,
in and out of it.
Does that make sense.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I think it's very insightful because the
experience is much more on acontinuum.
There's this sense of rejection, of letting go, of feeling cut
off in a certain way.
Even if you're close andconnected in other ways, you can
still have this feeling of lossand of fear that you will lose
the connection as well.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think that's so true.
So I want to start with youtelling us how you got involved
in working in this area, and Iwant you to share a little bit
about your book, because Ididn't mention in the intro and
I'd like everyone to know aboutyour new book.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yes, people start to come to me based on the need,
and the need started growingwith.
That's how I became arelationship counselor and
that's what the basis of asoulful marriage is the four
pillars to thriving in yourrelationship or healing your
relationship and that was basedon the need, was there.
The couples just were coming,and then a similar trend has
(04:21):
been going on in the past 30years and increasing more
recently, with adult childrenand or the parent or both of
them needing help to navigatetheir relationship.
I remember being much morecareful with my own children as
they were becoming grown and wewelcomed new their partners into
the family, because I watchedso many ruptures.
Based on how that was handled,I started writing blogs about it
(04:43):
.
I have a before I wrote for theWall Street Journal.
I wrote a few things as well inmy own personal blog.
I go on Fox 2 in St Louis, andso I was doing several segments
and they just got picked up bythe algorithms and I started
getting phone calls.
This was maybe about eightyears ago started getting phone
calls from people all over thecountry, even all over the world
, like desperate for help withit.
(05:03):
It just became a more growingspecialty and there's so much
potential for growth thathappens in these ruptures and so
it's a passion of mine to help,partly because it's so painful
and wanting to help in any way Ican with the kind of pain.
But I also see it as thisgateway for growth that people
wouldn't really pursue personalor spiritual growth if it wasn't
(05:26):
for this pain they're in.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I think that hits the nail right on the head, because
I feel that when I interviewedLindsay Gibson, she talked a lot
about self-awareness and that'sall about you're continuing to
grow.
You sort of hit your 60s or 70sand you start thinking I've
done it all, but really you haveto continue to develop yourself
.
When you're changingrelationships with whoever it is
around you, when your husbandretires, when your children
(05:50):
marry, everything changes in allof those kinds of ways.
So I love this idea of it's agateway.
You feel this pain and youcan't just sit on it.
You need to work on it.
So you said something recentlyand this wasn't something I was
even going to talk about, butyou said when your kids started
taking on spouses and people youtalk to and the way things
could be ruptured.
(06:11):
When that starts happening,tell us what you think are the
best ways.
When your child brings homesomeone that's going to be their
new spouse, welcoming to thefamily, what are the ways that
works and what are the ways thatdon't work?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
family.
What are the ways that worksand what are the ways that don't
work?
It's a very, very sensitivesubject because you have to also
, you know, not be totally onthe side.
If you're concerned aboutsomething, you also have a place
as a parent to maybe share aconcern.
But generally speaking, youwant to start with curiosity and
have an awareness of empathyfor what it's like to come into
(06:43):
a family.
Try to remember what it waslike for you if you were one of
those in that stage of your life, so that you can really make
the person feel welcome.
That is the main thing thatyou're happy that they're there,
you're interested in the personand that you also respect a
gradual shift in that person,kind of becoming more important
to your child than you are interms of.
(07:06):
Don't assume that becauseyou've always done it this way
as a family, you have to factorin now, especially as the
partner becomes more part oftheir lives, you know how does
that work for them also.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, I think that's very, very true.
My kids tell me I act I'm toocurious, I ask too many
questions, and I think the onething you said that really
resonated with me is that personbecomes more important in their
life than you are, and that'shard as a parent of an adult
child, and it's not all ornothing.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Like I was saying at the beginning of this particular
question.
It also isn't to be solaissez-faire that you don't
have conversations about it, butyou really want to have those
conversations to ask them whatthey think, how this might look
down the road, what is importantto you and how can you see
yourself growing with thisperson, right?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
that's really good.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Are there things in your relationship that you do
think you would want to talkabout that might be a potential
clash in the future, but do youwant to also be a sounding board
?
And the more accepting and lessjudgmental and less influencing
we are of them, that wecommunicate, that we trust them
to make good decisions, thenthey tend to feel more
(08:16):
comfortable to process with us.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And that makes sense.
That's a hard, hard thing to do.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
It is extremely hard and each child is unique.
So, like my firstborn, you haveto wait for her to do.
It is extremely hard and eachchild is unique.
So, like my firstborn, there'slike you have to wait for her to
ask you know like I'm the sameway with my firstborn but my
second one, I can almost sayanything.
Exactly, I think that is kindof common All right.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
So something you said earlier about the increase in
this and you say in your articlethat shifts in how we talk
about mental health the whiningdivides in politics and culture
seem to be inspiring a growingnumber of young people to drop
any relationship they see astoxic.
So I'd like you to expand onthat.
And what's toxic?
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah Well, it's like a word that we hear a lot, Right
, that it's not growth promoting, it doesn't.
You don't feel validated in therelationship where you feel
that you know it's emotionallydistressing and everybody's
unique with the level that theycan tolerate of that.
It can be like triggering.
If there's, you know, trauma orof messaging you got growing up
(09:17):
that made you feel less than orunloved or not right with who
you are.
Then it also being in anenvironment environment if any
criticism can be received by theadult child as more reminder of
shame and feeling less than,and so that becomes a toxic
environment.
It can be the way that personhandles their emotions the
parent there's a lot of parentswho unfortunately have
(09:40):
intergenerational trauma andthey have their own kind of
harmful ways of trying to copewith their emotions that they
are having trouble regulatingand that can come across as very
and violence a little strong,but like really loud and
boisterous and scary and out ofcontrol.
That can feel toxic.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Why are we seeing such an increase in this?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
I think that there's more like anecdotally increases.
I don't think the research yetis showing this, but they're
working.
I think they're going to see itthe more the research unfolds.
I think the culture of therapyhas a lot of pluses, but there's
also a shadow side of therapy.
But a lot of the pluses oftherapy is that a lot of adult
children are normalized to go totherapy and they reparent
(10:22):
themselves and they individuateand they differentiate and they
start to have somebody holdspace for them, for them to you
know, good therapy helps youparent yourself, reparent
yourself, but you have somebodywho is helping you to understand
what it looks like to betreated in a way that feels good
and what healthy boundaries arein a relationship, and
(10:43):
empowering you to make decisionsin your life that feel good and
what healthy boundaries are ina relationship, and empowering
you to make decisions in yourlife that feel good, for you to
be your own unique individual,whereas a lot of families are
trying to still make people bethe way you want them to be.
That's human nature, because wewant to have that closeness and
you think it's the right thing,and there's a lot of lack of
self-awareness.
So I think therapy is a bigfactor in this.
That is kind of a tipping pointof individuals adult children
(11:07):
in particular realizing thatokay, there is another way and I
can choose my life.
I can choose what feels goodfor me.
I don't have to keep acceptingbehavior or culture or scenarios
that don't serve me well.
And then the shadow side is itcan go too far, in my opinion,
and it makes you moreself-focused and not considering
(11:30):
the context of how it affectseveryone else and the grace and
the mercy that we're all on ajourney.
Sometimes therapy canoveremphasize personal pain and
overlook the context of thewhole system and the humanness
and the fragility and thevulnerability of every human
being.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I love that because I see that a lot.
It's a lot of the me generationand I think our generation of
parenting also contributed tothat, because we were all about
their feelings and I've saidthis in other episodes and I
think we're wondering why thisis happening, but that's exactly
how we parented.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It's so true.
So it's a therapy culture ispositive, but it has totally.
We have more child-centeredfamilies now, which has some
positives started in the 60s andit's grown, but it makes kids
more like self-centered, and Idon't mean this judgmentally,
it's an affliction we've giventhem.
I remember once when we studiedthe wisdom of Kabbalah my
(12:27):
husband and I and that's wherewe learned a lot of these tools
to help kids feel empowered andhave a sense of earnership at a
young age and respect theirparents not because we need the
respect, but because they gettheir energy from their source.
And I remember that there was ajazz concert that my son was
going to have that they changedthe date, which then became a
conflict with an event I washosting to help other people
(12:47):
learn, you know, how to improvetheir lives, and I felt such a
pull.
I was being advised by myteacher, my Kabbalah teacher,
that no, this is an opportunityto teach, that it's not just
about them, that they canactually help support you as
well.
I mean, he was a teenager, ayoung teen, and I saw how much
we can actually teach childrenselfishness.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yeah, we really can.
I think we've done a lot ofthat.
So in your article, I love thestory you told about this one
mother, Marjorie.
I think we all could relate toMarjorie she was feeling distant
from her son and suddenly shestarted doing all these
impulsive texts.
I didn't sleep last night.
I'm really worried about younot talking to me.
What did I do?
That was wrong?
You know, blah, blah, blah.
And there's not a mother in theworld that hasn't wanted to
(13:30):
send those texts.
It's the holding back.
You talk about strength, and Iwant to get into this whole
place of strength.
How do we stop ourselves?
We're hurting so bad.
Maybe they've said something onthe phone that was either
hurtful or didn't resonate.
You don't want to call back,but you want to say what's going
on.
But mothers have this kind ofyou know, let go go to.
(13:52):
So how do we build this?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
strength.
Yes, and it's really aboutbeing in two places at the same
time.
It's a tall order to ask ofourselves as mothers, because
there's such a deep soul to soulconnection that there is an
intertwining of self on somelevel even more with mothers.
Many people report this in lotsof different approaches.
So, yes, we feel this onenessand deep connection and sense of
(14:14):
purpose and as part of who weare, and then all of a sudden we
have to start letting go, whichis like unthinkable, like what
do you mean?
But one of the things that ishelpful is to start, even when
they're younger, if you can, tostart detaching and have your
own sense of self and catchyourself with how often you're
thinking about them or worryingabout them or basing your
(14:35):
well-being on whether they'reokay with you or in general, and
so that's kind of a slowtrickle have other things, other
energy you bring into your lifethat's independent of them, and
then from there, I think it'salso really important to get
support, whether it's in therapyor a spiritual path or
friendships or reading orlistening to this podcast that
you really start developing more.
(14:56):
It can be called emotionalmaturity that sounds a little
cold, but where you start toexpand your capacity to hold
pain and embrace pain and be inthe discomfort of pain.
And because we are such a, wehave two parts of us.
We have an ego and we have,like, a higher part of us.
You can call the core self orthe soul, but the ego is all
about instant gratification.
(15:16):
If I'm feeling uncomfortable,I'm going to fix it now and that
gets us into a lot of troubleso building and cultivating our
capacity, the muscle for sittingwith it.
I'm uncomfortable right now.
I like to focus for me on mybody.
What is my body feeling?
Oh, I feel this sinking inside.
I think you know.
Maybe it's shame, maybe I feelless than, or I'm afraid I'm
(15:39):
going to be alone.
Like we can go to suchirrational places with one, like
funny ending to a phone call,or like leaving, needing to
leave early, or it isn't what Iexpected, or a change in plans
from our children because itdidn't work for them and we had
this idea of how this wholeevent was going to go.
It can create irrational, liketrauma almost, or irrational
(16:00):
fears and emotional pain.
Don't judge yourself for that,but you want to listen to what
is?
It Be curious, like there's thestory and then there's what is
the story about?
Give me an example.
Give me an example.
Something is coming up in mywith that just happened.
Okay, my, I have a grandson now, so it's similar to you, right,
he's two, so I'm a little bitmore seasoned.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah, you're much further, much further ahead than
I am.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yes.
So we were invited them to comewith us to go to you know a
resort town in Michigan for thefourth and, which is unusual,
that they were able to go andthat you know my daughter and
her wife and our grandson aregoing to come.
Now some things have changed intheir life and we're getting
little messages that I don'tthink they're going to come.
You know it's not looking likeit's going to support them in
their life.
It's a small thing but it canfeel like a big thing.
(16:47):
That can create a lot ofproblems in relationships when
you don't first sit with howthat feels relationships, when
you don't first sit with howthat feels Like.
I noticed that I felt sad, likeI had this whole vision.
I was watching other.
The last time we were there Iwas watching other people at the
beach with their families.
You know I had this wholeschema and how disappointing
that would be for me.
So I had to go through theprocess of taking care of that
(17:09):
myself and not centering myfeelings and my needs and
expectations and putting them onmy daughter when she's telling
me this, especially notinitially.
So then I just listened.
Within it's that self-awarenessand that self-soothing.
I honored the feeling I honoredthat yeah, that would be
disappointing.
I also honored the perspectivepart of me that knows like, in
(17:31):
the scheme of things, this isnormal, this is healthy and this
is also probably for the goodfor you.
Maybe it's good for you and myhusband to have more time
together, or maybe this is alsogood for me because I'm learning
how to be flexible even more.
And so you know, looking, justhaving the mindset that I'm
looking for not seeing why thisis happening to me, but how this
(17:56):
is happening for me.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So moving away from your own ego, really, because
your own ego was hurt a littlebit.
My ego was hurt, yeah, and Istruggle with that a lot.
I just think why aren't theythinking about me?
This was really hurtful.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yes, exactly, and things have changed.
I know, when my kids were born,my mother was like right there.
But when my grandson was born,they wanted space.
It's so different, and so I hadto deal with all of those
feelings.
But if I didn't work on theemotional maturity part of
myself and I put my feelings andmy needs and I centered myself,
I would have pushed them awayand it would have been selfish,
(18:32):
it would have been hurtful tothem, and then I can't be there
when they do need me, becausethey feel unsafe to come close,
because I'm going to make itabout me.
So, the more we can like, holdspace for them and and of course
, at some point yes, it's amutual and you want to share
your feelings and needs too.
It's not about.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
How do you do that, though?
I mean, I think that's thehardest thing.
I don't mean to interrupt you,but, as you're saying this and
I've had similar situations andI've worked on myself my
emotional maturity but what Ireally want to say is get with
the program.
I'm your mother, suck it up.
I'm not perfect.
Remember when you said you werecoming?
We've put deposits down in thehotel.
(19:11):
What?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
are you thinking?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I mean I would never say that, but there's a part of
me that wants to say what is theproblem here?
So when can you start saying alittle bit about how you're
feeling?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Well, if you're in a rift and you're in a rupture,
and then not at all Never.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
And there's a lot of like.
I always say like your adultchild is the customer, you know,
like, even in couples, likeEveryone says that I can,
everyone says that yes, andthere's a step-by-step process.
That's not forever and it's notall the way all the time.
So it's really subtle, thesenuances.
That's why I like, that's whyit's so important to have more
people who understand that it's.
It's not just your classicfamily counseling situation.
(19:49):
There's so many nuances to this, so many.
So when there's a strong ruptureand it's similar with a couple
either, the partner who'spulling away, just it's not fair
.
We have to let go of logic andjustice.
We have to go with just what amI being called to right now,
for the sake of thisrelationship and for the sake of
(20:10):
my growth?
To trust that you're where youneed to be.
It's a choice you make, it's anaxiom.
You know that.
Like to choose to trust thatyou're where you need to be,
it's a choice you make, it's anaxiom.
You know that.
Like to choose to trust thatthe universe is a friendly place
and that, even if I don't likewhere I am, there's something of
benefit for me and otherwise Iwouldn't be here.
Something to put it back intobalance in myself and my whole
family system and my lineage.
(20:30):
And so you know, trying toembrace it and not blame, and
trying and stop rejecting it, bein the present moment.
And then, when it comes toholding space for for the one
who is feeling like they need topull away, is, first of all, as
a parent.
There's a lot of approachesthat appreciate how we are.
We always came first, we werealways their source, so it's
(20:54):
appropriate for us to hold spacefor them, and when there's a
rupture or when we're navigatingtheir unique individuality, we
really want to overcome ourego's propensity to think that
we created them for me.
No, we created them for theworld.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's a great line.
That's a great line.
So what I'm hearing here thisjust came to my mind you're
valuing the relationship overyourself.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
And their own development and looking at what
this could be for your owndevelopment.
And then you're in and you haveto repair.
Like you know, it depends ifit's, if it's like day-to-day
stuff and you want to handle itappropriately.
You you'd still similar, butnot as extreme, where you still
want to hold space and listen tothem first.
So tell me more about what'sgoing on.
Yeah, like, yeah, you're, I cansee you have so much going on.
(21:40):
Tell me what you're thinking andthen let them know that you can
hold them in a way that you'renot going to make make it
crowded in the room where theycan't share their feelings with
you because you're going to beputting yours in the room so
loud that they can't even sharethemselves or they're going to
feel guilty.
You know that they're makingupsetting.
You want to liberate them, tolive the life for them and they,
(22:01):
paradoxically, will want tocome closer to you.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Can I say that one more time If?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
you, if they if, if, if children, and if you haven't
overgiven that's another sidething that overgiving is a
problem in our society but ifthey feel the genuine sense that
you can resist the urge to makeyourself the center and make it
about you and what you need andyou're not guilting them, and
they really feel that you wantwhat's best for their well-being
, their unique path, and theyfeel spacious in that way, they
(22:28):
feel safe, that they can reallyturn to you because you're not
going to make it crowded andmake too many needs in the room
and not their own, then paradoxis they'll feel safe with you
and they're going to come to youmore.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Interesting.
Okay, you sort of slippedsomething in there.
I want to hear more about Toomuch giving.
I see that all the time and I'mguilty.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Exactly.
But I want to get to that injust a moment.
Okay, all the time and I'mguilty, so I want to get to that
in just a moment.
Okay, I want to say is after aperiod of time and a shorter
scale.
If it's a day-to-dayinteraction, it's a longer scale
.
If you have a rupture or ifthere's.
If there, if you're hearingsome grievances, if you're
noticing some like little signsof pulling away, you want to be
even more careful.
It becomes a little moreone-sided for a while, but then
(23:13):
eventually then you can have amore mutual relationship, like
what I like with my situationwith my daughter.
It all happened very quickly,but she brought up again that
she wasn't sure that she wasgoing to able to come.
But there was an opening that Icould share a little bit about
me, because it was in thecontext of something else,
because of how much I had missedour grandson because we'd been
on a different trip.
(23:33):
I was seeing other kids on thebeach and I was wanting it to be
Leo and you know and so and sofrom there it was in like a
lighter way and I said it withlike a both and like I know you
need to do what you need to do.
But, oh my gosh, there's a partof me that will be so sad if
you're not there and I just youknow.
But, but, but it's still leftroom for her to have her own to
(23:54):
be supported.
And then there's something moreserious.
You've had more serious thingscome up, but first it's still
important for me to try and I'mnot perfect at it, but to put
her out and make sure she feelsfully heard, and there's lots of
tools for doing that, and it'sa whole thing in its own thing
in its own.
And then, when you share yourown perspective, you want to be
(24:15):
careful to share it in a waythat doesn't guilt them, that
doesn't make them feelresponsible for your feelings,
but that lets them know thatyou're a human being too, and
this is what it's like for you.
And ask them, make a requestfor what I would like, also like
.
Would this work?
This is what would make me feelgood.
So there is room for that, butyou have to wait your time.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
So you just said I want to get to the giving, but
you also just said there's awhole bunch of tools for making
them feel heard.
Can you share a couple of them?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Actually, in my book I have chapters on this and I'm
hoping to do some more writingon this subject as well, but for
now, in a soulful marriage,there's four pillars, and I'm
working on four pillars forhealing, estrangement, but some
of the same pillars will be thecase, and in this case, pillar
two is called growth, and thatpillar is about how you use your
(25:06):
friction to grow, but to do so,you need to learn how to
communicate soulfully orcommunicate in a way that
creates compassion and healing,and so it's a lot about empathy.
It's a lot about reflectingback what you've heard
communicate soulfully orcommunicate in a way that
creates compassion and healing,and so it's a lot about empathy.
It's a lot about reflectingback what you've heard.
It's a lot about this emotionalmaturity and self-awareness
that you can be with your painin the one hand and hold space
to hear another person'sperspective at the same time.
(25:27):
And there are specific toolsfor that, and I lay it out.
I go through sample dialoguesand it's one of the hardest
things to do.
It's like climbing MountEverest, but we're capable of it
.
We really are.
But it takes a tremendouscommitment and you get better at
it.
I do it in my own merit.
It takes a potential,disconnect, heaviness, like
(25:48):
unsafe feeling, frustration,powerless feeling into
breakthroughs when you canreally feel heard and and create
a safe environment for thedeeper.
What's the story really abouthere?
It makes perfect sense with mydaughter and and with my son,
but even more with my daughter.
She's a therapist too.
So we process and so we'll havethese points of friction and
(26:10):
we're hearing each other, but wewait and we go to coffee and
we'll sit down and we take turnsand then eventually we start to
see the things we share incommon of what we're both
working on and why this is inour life.
Looking for the meaning, whichis the sixth stage of grief, and
that's an important one thatyou look for.
Where's the growth?
Where's the meaning?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Okay, can we go to the too much giving?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Giving.
So it's kind of similar to whenI gave this, told you the story
about our son and the jazzconcert.
My inclination was to findsomebody else to run the event.
I have to be at every singleevent of my son, or he's not
going to feel loved.
I'm not going to.
You know, I didn't want to missit, of course either.
In that moment it would havebeen overgiving, like that's of
time, that's of energy, it's oftime, energy, resources, and so
(26:58):
the idea is that Can I ask you aquestion here how do you judge?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
So?
I think of that situation asthe jazz concert.
Okay, Sometimes it's not goingto really matter to the kid if
you miss the soccer game or missthe jazz concert.
But how do you judge?
He's 12 years old.
How old was he at this time?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I think he was 15.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
15 years old.
I think it's hard to judge whatis that most meaningful
experience for them, that theyreally want you there for, and
then I think, you can make asacrifice, but it's hard to know
what that is, Because maybe atthat point you chose to do the
event and he later he's 24 nowsaying the thing that hurt me
(27:37):
the most was you didn't come tomy dinner.
You weren't there because I hadworked so hard on my flute or
whatever it was and you choseyour work over me and it still
haunts me mom.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yes, well, it is case by case.
I'm so glad you asked thequestion because it depends.
I went to everything I wouldsupport his travel.
He went to a camp for hispercussion.
I went to visit him at the camp.
So my bank of goodwill waspretty high, it was pretty full.
But if that happened to havebeen an exceptionally important
event, I would have talked tohim about it and I would find
(28:11):
out how important it was to him.
If it was really and I wouldknow if it was really that
important, I would haveabsolutely found somebody else.
But in the context of thethings, it was a big concert but
it was just.
It was another big concert outof many.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Right?
No, I know, I'm just thinking,not that situation in particular
.
But I see, particularly in ourgeneration of parents with
grandkids, with kids, oh, I'llbe there, I'll bring you a meal.
When do you need me to pick upthe grandkid?
I'll cancel everything thisafternoon so I can be there for
you.
I'll take care of the kids forfive days a week, totally
forgetting about ourselves.
That seems like overgiving tome too.
(28:44):
And what's the repercussion ofthe overgiving?
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Yes and the overgiving usually starts
earlier.
We feel we're responsible forour children's happiness.
We're not.
We're here to create anenvironment for them to create
their own and to teach themcause and effect.
I learned this from studyingwith the Kabbalah Center Like
this changed our life so muchwith how we parent it.
So this is a lot of what we'redealing with in.
Estrangement is really theeffect of first of all, there's
(29:09):
a lot of things changing insociety.
I don't have rapid rate, butalso it's the effect of how
things were handled, the dynamicat home.
So overgiving can be not havingthem have earnership, of
helping in the house and seeingthat mom and dad are also humans
and they need support too.
Or having them earn like ifthey want something extra, then
what can they do to earn it, andthat things aren't just given
(29:29):
to them.
You want to give them the tasteof transformation, the taste of
putting skin in the game.
It's a gift we give themBecause you end up.
The paradox is you start toresent the person giving to you
when you don't feel that.
You feel empty inside and youresent it's unconscious.
But you resent the persongiving to you and you think
they're not giving you enoughwhen you don't.
So our job as parents is tocreate a sense of earnership
(29:51):
Like enough.
When you don't so, our job asparents is to create a sense of
earnership.
Like you know, we had our kidslike doing laundry early on when
we learned this, or or eventhough we could have afforded to
buy their car insurance, we hadthem work so they could buy
their car insurance working inthe summer.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Now we're in it.
You know, now we're talking toparents of adult children that
may have not done all of this.
They messed up the whole thing.
We did everything for them, wewere made sure they were happy.
We felt like our happiness was,or their happiness was, on our
shoulders.
And we see ourselves continuingthis in their adult life, but
feeling less and lessappreciated.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yes, Well, it is harder the later stage it in.
It's like the fruit is alreadya bitter piece of fruit, but you
still can make change.
Families are dynamic, Life isdynamic.
So you start to make littletweaks.
You still need to hear them.
Dynamic.
So you start to make littletweaks.
You still need to hear them,though you still need to hold
space for them.
That doesn't change.
(30:39):
But you start to honor yourselfand you start to listen first
to what would be a good balancefor me.
What kind of grandmother orgrandfather or mother or
father-in-law or adult parent,parent of adult child, do I want
to be, and what else in my lifeis important that I might be
neglecting?
We absolutely hurt ourselvesand everyone we want to help and
support when we neglectourselves.
(31:00):
So that's why pillar one of mybook is responsibility we're
responsible for our ownhappiness and well-being and
pillar three is priority, whichis prioritizing your
relationship with your spouse.
So both of those are relevant.
With adult children you canstill find your tendency.
I do a lot of writing on howmuch we put the kids first over
the marriage and we're thesource, and so it's so important
(31:21):
to nurture, for everybody'ssake, that relationship.
So when I was a first earlygrandmother, I was going above
and beyond and I still like todo that, but we've tweaked it.
Where I don't physically stretchmyself like I did before I was
getting sick, I realized that I,in desire to be this amazing
grandmother and be so close.
I wasn't balancing andfortunately my daughter is so
(31:44):
supportive and she wants me totake care of myself, and so I
tweaked it and I, you know youcan start to make small shifts
to change a dynamic little bitsof it, and sometimes you might
even need to explain it withreassuring statements.
I call them.
I have a lot of that in thebook about reassuring statements
.
I want to be here all the timeand I want to do all of it, but
I realize that it's not good forme and then I will not be.
(32:06):
I can't show up as well for you.
That way your children don'tthink you're just like, you
don't care, or you know I justthis is an important time, kind
of golden years, with yourfather and I or whoever your
person is, and so you know I'mreally working to balance if
they're noticing a shift.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
That's interesting because even back at the very
beginning, when we startedtalking about taking care of
yourself and you're notresponsible for your children's
happiness, and you're not happyonly when they are happy I mean,
you're a professional, I'm aprofessional there's a lot of
women that raise their children.
The children leave and thereisn't much left in their lives.
(32:47):
Okay, and I wonder how they canhelp themselves, because that's
a group.
I really and it's not thatthey're weak or what they've
done hasn't been marvelous andwonderful, but it feels very
empty when the children leaveand start developing their own
lives.
They're in their sixties, theirseventies, and I get a lot of
letters from people like thisand I just don't know what to
say or who to refer them to,because I feel their pain.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yes, yes, it is.
It is a direct causality that Isee that mothers who their
professional life was raisingthe children and taking care of
the home there's often a muchmore difficult transition to
being empty nesters and thenalso giving space for the.
This is a, you know, there areexceptions, of course.
I'm generalizing Right.
Right, I'm trend, I'm showingtrends, Right.
(33:32):
Also really difficult to let goand let them go live their
lives.
I'm meeting with one woman.
She said but my daughters aremy best friends and I'm like, oh
, that's already right there,Not to judge that.
You start getting attached tothe outcome, where you're
centering your feelings and yourneeds.
We don't realize how much weare bringing children in to
(33:52):
think of them, to serve us.
We want them to serve theirlives, their soul, their world,
their place in the world.
So what I'm doing with thisindividual, this woman is slowly
working on making lists ofthings that bring her light,
that light her up, that are notabout her kids.
It doesn't have to be finding anew career or you know age I
think she's in her 60s.
(34:12):
Where is she not putting energyinto her friendships?
Because she's waiting for herdaughter and that's why she's so
upset that she's not wanting tolive the lifestyle that she
lives because she's depending onher too much.
So I would take small steps tosee what is in your life that
you can nourish, to create moreemotional independence for
(34:33):
yourself.
What lifts you up in terms ofthe arts or being in nature, or
being with certain people, orwhat kind of work can you do in
the world to add value to theworld that fills us up so much
to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
What I'm listening to now and I want to see that I
got this right in bothsituations.
I need to work on findingawareness in myself and
understanding myself and lettinggo of my ego when I'm talking
or interacting with my adultkids.
It's going to take the sameamount of work for me as it is
for someone who devoted theirwhole lives completely to their
(35:06):
kids.
Both situations take work iswhat I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
They do they do and for some, and for lots of
reasons, for some that's harderthan others.
It could be because you had allyour eggs in one basket.
It could also be that you havebipolar and so you have a hard
time regulating your emotions.
You know, like so many factorsthat come into play.
Or there's also we take thescheme of how we were raised and
we have these expectations ofhow our children and I we were
(35:30):
raised and we have theseexpectations of how our children
, and I believe in teachingchildren to respect their
parents, not again because weneed the respect, but because
they get energy from theirsource.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And what does that mean?
They get energy from theirsource.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So we will never.
They will are never the oneswho came first.
We always will be the ones whoeven if it's adoption, we were
the.
It was the thought that broughtthem to us and reared.
Adoption.
It was the thought that broughtthem to us and reared.
The respect part is likeanything that we appreciate.
We get energy from, we getblessing from it.
We get good things out of it.
And so this is something that isa sensitive thing to talk to
(36:04):
with adult children, but to theextent that they can do both at
the same time establish theirboundaries, but always with the
sense of honoring that theirparents gave them life, that
whatever their parents gave them, it behooves them to appreciate
that and to respect that.
It's not like a religious ormoral.
It's literally about energyflow.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
I can see that with my own mother.
She's gone now.
How so?
Well, I think there were lotsof things that bothered me as I
became a young adult and anolder adult and with my kids,
she loved me and she gaveeverything she had, and so,
whatever she was doing, I had towork around a little bit
because I honored her, I wasgrateful, and now that she's
(36:48):
gone I wish I would have donemore.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yes, I hear that so much.
So in my work with both theparents and the adult children,
it's something that I reallyaspire to carefully introduce.
Being in those two places atthe same time and sometimes it's
a timing thing they need tohave their own space for a while
.
It's developmental, they'reindividuating.
(37:12):
But you have to yes, but youhave to be careful not to have
it go on too long, because I seea lot of people regret it.
They have all these insightslater as they evolve and they so
wish they could have had moreof a sense of balance and more
closure and peace andforgiveness before they passed.
So it's just a very careful,sensitive dynamic.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Well, and I think something you said in your
article with the change inpolitics and culture and
everything changing so quickly,that's hard for a lot of us.
They have a whole different setof rules now for the way you
have to operate and it can beuncomfortable for them when you
step over them and you're withthem.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, exactly, and it's important for both sides to
be patient because we'relearning.
I've noticed my daughter softenand she's more educating now
versus criticizing, and when itcomes to politics and certain
views that are so different, itcan be helpful to really try to
nourish what you do connectaround.
(38:12):
We're more complex.
We're made up of many parts.
We have a tendency the ego ismore black and white in thinking
.
Duality is something more forpeople who keep developing and
grow spiritually and emotionally.
So I always try to encouragepeople to see if they can kind
of compartmentalize a bit andjust try to connect around what
(38:33):
they can connect around anddon't bring up the topics if
they can't come to terms.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
That makes perfect sense.
You mentioned and I can'tremember exactly in the article
how you said it, but you saidthat some adult children are not
as interested in repairing orbuilding the relationship, or
how did you say this?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
More in punishment.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yes, punishment, that's exactly what you said.
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yes.
So for some I think they mightstay there.
But it's stages.
Some are not in that stage ofseeing where we're all human,
and this is what I need to dofor you, because it's not
(39:14):
healthy for me.
But there isn't that animosityor that blame and that anger and
resentment that's dominatingand wanting to like hurt them
and not even consider theirfeelings.
Some are just still in an angrystage of grief as adult
children and they may also havea sense of they may have been
overgiven to and think thattheir pain is more important
than other people's pain.
So that's a maturity issue too,and so I see that can happen.
(39:36):
Hopefully is temporary and italso depends on the parent.
The parent can also be thatunhealthy themselves to be
around, and that's the extremecases that aren't the norm, but
that does happen.
Yeah, it's so sad, it is so sadand it's sad for everyone
because they're hurting too,even the parent who's unwell and
doing terribly harmful things.
It's still hurting, but theyjust they don't have the
(39:58):
emotional capacity to see that.
But when it comes to thepunishing part, sometimes it's a
stage where you're just so mad.
You just want them to hurtbecause you're hurting and you
just can't believe that they didthat to you or said that to you
or can't understand you.
And then often it's a stage andif people really are capable of
continuing to grow the adultchildren, then they can start to
(40:20):
soften and see that they reallyare doing the best they can.
And we just have to redefinethe relationship, restore the
relationship in a different kindof dynamic, even if it means a
little more space, to try tofind ways that you can find some
kind of connection that honorsyou as the adult child but also
is is considerate of thefeelings of the parent.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
But I want to add to that it takes work once again on
both sides.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
The parent can't just sit back and say I haven't done
anything, because there'salways takes two to tango it
does and a lot of parents arenot willing for to, to embrace
that self-awareness piece, thatself-reflection piece, and they
can only see the hurtfulbehavior of the child.
And that's where, even when Imeet with the parents who, who
can't even have any inroadsright now, it's gone too far,
(41:06):
and they, they won't evenrespond to them at all.
There's still a lot of work wedo together to help them unpack.
They just tell me a few thingsthat they think were really
innocuous and it was like no,that was actually that.
Actually it's a good news thatactually could justify in these
days, somebody cutting ties withyou.
So let's talk about that.
And then then we work on themost pillar too, which is growth
(41:28):
.
Like, well, how is this here tohelp you grow?
And and then take it from there.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, that's so important because whatever age
we are, we can continue to grow,and I think sometimes people
forget 60, 70, I've done all mygrowing, but really we have to
continue to grow and learn andbecome self-aware, because
relationships, life, everythingcontinues to change.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Absolutely.
We have everything to gain andif you have the capacity for it,
don't take it for granted.
Every single minute of yourlife Just self-reflect, to have
insight, to have the desire togrow, is one of the biggest
gifts we've been given.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
The desire to grow.
All right, we're going to wrapup and I think I told you, I
always ask my guests to leaveour listeners with two important
things you want them toremember.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
What would those two things be from you?
The first one is to put energyinto seeing what you're
experiencing.
The difficulty you'reexperiencing is happening to you
, happening for you, not to you.
That it's it's.
It's that to look for thebenefit and to look for it as a
you're being loved on some levelin the world, because this is
going to help you grow in someway or bring balance in some way
that you may not be able to seeright now.
(42:35):
And the second thing is I wouldencourage anyone listening to
awaken more self-love andself-compassion for, wherever
you are, that you're not alonein what you're going through,
whether it's this or some otherrelationship or something else
that you feel really stuck in orthat you feel really a lot of
pain around you know, the lastthing we need when we're going
(42:58):
through a hard time is to beatourselves up and shame all over
ourselves.
So I would just encourage youto start really working on
increasing your kindness toyourself.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Thank you very much.
Before we close, I want you togive one more shout out about
your book.
I know it's about marriage.
I think you know so much aboutrelationships.
So one quick shout out aboutyour book the name of it, where
they can get it, and that sortof thing.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Yes.
So Soulful Marriage, you canshow it.
You can show the book.
Oh yeah, I have it up here.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
So it's healing yourrelationship through
responsibility, growth, priorityand purpose, and I'm finding
more and more that this isrelevant for all relationships,
for single people, people whoare coupled, and your family,
your siblings, your workrelationships, similar concepts.
(43:42):
And you can find it on Amazon.
You can find it at Barnes Noble.
I have a website,drrachelglickcom, that shows, I
think, five different placesthat you can purchase the book.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Okay, great, I'll put that all in my episode notes.
So thank you, Rachel, fortaking the time and I hope you
have a great time in Michigan onthe water.
Enjoy your husband whether theycome or not whether they come
or not.
Okay, take care.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Thank you so much.
This has been such a delight.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Okay.
Well, that's a wrap.
Thank you so much, Rachel.
It was very informative.
You know her article, althoughon estrangement, this covered so
much more and I think the thingI pulled out of it the most was
we all really do need to workon taking care of ourselves,
finding things in our lives thatis not just about our adult
children.
(44:27):
This is really hard work, guys,but if you're in it for the
long run and want to win in thisgame, I think that's the way to
do it.
I want to thank Connie GornFisher, our audio engineer.
She always continues to makethese recordings wonderful.
Please write to us atBiteYourTonguePodcast at
gmailcom.
Follow us on social media andwe're looking for the next great
(44:50):
interview.
But remember, sometimes youjust have to bite your tongue.
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