August 8, 2025 • 47 mins
The battle for reproductive rights and women's autonomy isn't just modern politics—it's a struggle with deep historical roots. In this episode, we dive into the New Testament section of Elizabeth Cady Stanton's revolutionary Woman's Bible, where Victorian-era feminists dissect biblical patriarchy with remarkable insight and surprising humor.
Their analysis strips away supernatural elements while preserving Jesus's moral authority, describing him as a "mountainous man" who perceived truths before others could. As one anonymous contributor boldly states, Jesus "commands far more love and reverence as a true man with human possibilities than as a God superior to all human frailties."
The parallels between past and present are striking. When we discuss modern politicians referring to women as "host bodies," we can't help but connect it to Mary, "the original host body," whose immaculate conception story these Victorian feminists saw as diminishing ordinary motherhood. Their reinterpretation of the parable of the ten virgins is particularly revolutionary—rather than women competing for a bridegroom, they read it as a call for women's self-sufficiency and intellectual independence.
Perhaps most powerful is Elizabeth Cady Stanton's critique of women who sacrifice their own education to support men and institutions that exclude them: "Women go to make themselves ladders by which their husbands, brothers, sons climb up into the kingdom of knowledge, while they themselves are shut out from all intellectual companionship." Her rallying cry to women to "light your own damn lamp" resonates just as strongly today as it did in 1895.
Join us for this feminist time-travel adventure that will change how you view both religious history and contemporary gender politics. Whether you're religious, spiritual-but-not-religious, or a committed skeptic, you'll find something thought-provoking in these brilliant women's fearless questioning of patriarchal authority.
Credits
Recorded at Troubadour Studios in Lansing, MI
Audio Engineer Corey DeRushia
Edited by Rie Daisies at Nighttime Girlfriend Studio
Music: ‘Shifting pt. 2 (instrumental)’ by Rie Daisies
Have some feedback? Praise? General thoughts? Know how to pronounce something? Are you a religious scholar? We'd love to hear from you. Leave a message right from your phone or computer by clicking here. Recordings may be used in future episodes.
Website
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sara Kaye (00:00):
How's it going?
Host bodies How's the host bodydoing?
How's your host body going?
Who are you hosting lately?
Joanna (00:09):
So sad because we both have so many little girls in our
lives.
Sara Kaye (00:12):
I know I'm thinking of good podcast titles for
Welcome to Host with the MostHost Body Podcast, the Host Body
Podcast how to keep your bodyhostable or un-hostable.
Joanna (00:26):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Sara Kaye (00:28):
Yeah, how to get a one-star rating on your host
body, so no one ever tries tostay there.
It's the podcast that.
Joanna (00:37):
Saucy Serpent warned you about.
Sara Kaye (00:40):
Welcome to Biting All the Apples where two gals
discuss one radical book, thebest-selling critical and
comedic masterpiece from 1895,the Woman's Bible by Elizabeth
Cady Stanton.
Joanna (01:06):
I'm Sarah Kay.
I'm Sarah Kay.
Sara Kaye (01:10):
I'm Joanna B hey.
New Testament.
Who dis who?
Joanna (01:12):
dis who dis.
That's right, we made it.
Sara Kaye (01:16):
That's right.
We are moving into the part ofthe Bible with chapter names
that even I can pronounce.
I'm looking at you Matthew,mark, luke and John John.
This sounds modern, right, likeso modern that this is where
the Bible gets morelady-friendly.
Well, our cherished Victorianfeminist, elizabeth Cady Stanton
, tells us no, not at all.
From the looks of her intro tothe New Testament and the
(01:39):
woman's Bible, we're in for areal ride on the patriarchy
train.
We'll go over her intro and getinto the analysis of the book
of Matthew.
We're talking lineage magis andlots of virgins, all the
virgins, all the virgins.
Because, yeah, apparentlythey're still coming at us in
large quantities, these biblicalvirgins.
(02:01):
So grab a cup of something ortie your laces on for that walk.
We're getting into it rightafter our friendly disclaimers.
Joanna (02:09):
Biting All the Apples covers analysis of religious
texts.
Some listeners that arereligious out of the need for
the illusion of certainty mayfind the content offensive.
Biting All the Apples alsodiscusses historic texts and
feminist movements.
We recognize that individuals,groups and alternative movements
have been left out ofmainstream history.
We will note that wheneverpossible, we are open to
(02:33):
additional information providedto us in the spirit of expanding
knowledge.
Yes, you know.
Sara Kaye (02:39):
Here I am.
Here I am, Expand my knowledge.
I debated on changing the introformat because now we're in the
New Testament, I'm like do weneed new disclaimers?
But I don't, you know do we?
Joanna (02:53):
No, because I'm telling you from what I read definitely
needed, Because this is going tothrow some people.
For a whoo-hoo, this is goingto throw some people.
If you're listening to thepodcast, you probably thought
these things already.
But it's just like validation.
Yeah, the disclaimers areneeded.
I don't know how we change it,except now we're in the New
Testament.
Sara Kaye (03:14):
Well, I mean, should we shorten it?
Do people get the idea?
Joanna (03:16):
It's good.
Oh yeah, I guess we could justbe like check back on the other
If you made it this far.
Sara Kaye (03:23):
You don't need the disclaimer.
You know, what listeners maynot know is that we've really
it's taken us 30 minutes to dothat.
One minute intro.
Joanna (03:30):
It did.
Sara Kaye (03:31):
It did.
People don't know.
People don't know.
There's so many differentfactors, like I have ligament
laxity and run into crap all thetime.
Ooh, ligament, laxity, I don'tknow if that's a real thing.
Joanna (03:42):
But I have it Is that when you just like run into
things even though you knowthey're there, yeah.
Or if you have like 10 thingsin your hand and you're like
I'll get one more and then youtrip and you lose them all, yeah
, and you're like it takes you10 times longer?
Sara Kaye (03:52):
Or if there's only one place in an entire room
where you could possibly stubyour toe, I'm going to go find
it.
Joanna (03:58):
Yeah, to it.
Sara Kaye (04:00):
I want to get hurt.
Joanna (04:02):
Let me cut my hand as I'm trying to chop an avocado.
Sara Kaye (04:07):
It'll happen.
It'll happen.
You know what?
What can we say?
We're people that are in life.
Joanna (04:12):
That's right.
We don't have time to slow downand look for things that we're
going to stub our toe on,exactly, and I never know Doors
that accost your arm and bruiseyou for weeks.
You don't know if you're aliveuntil you know you get to like
(04:32):
bleed every so often.
I mean, we're chicks, that'show it goes.
That's true.
It's true.
I don't know if I'm progressingunless I drop some blood from
my host body.
That is important.
Sara Kaye (04:36):
Is that from this week?
Joanna (04:37):
I know, you know, it's the first time I've been
referred to as a host body inlike real life.
Sara Kaye (04:47):
I'm starting to think Okay, so in real life there was
something, something eclipsecirculating, but it looked like
it was some kind of podcast.
Joanna (04:52):
It was some you know, it was some kind of jack ballers
with a podcast.
Sara Kaye (04:59):
It looked like it was a conference, something in
florida of course, it wasdefinitely in florida.
It was florida, it was florida,florida the new country but I
think I'm starting to see peoplesay such shocking things.
One, it is terrifying, but two,it's making me question how
much we should be respondingwith outrage, because that is
(05:20):
how the misinformation andpropaganda stuff works.
So what we're talking about isthere was some guy in a suit
talking about women as hostbodies yeah, for babies.
Joanna (05:33):
Well, basically he was explaining the abortion laws and
he just, instead of saying themother, you know, could have
these issues.
She was no longer referred toas anything but a host for a
parasite which will be her childif she makes it through.
Sara Kaye (05:53):
Oh yeah, and he was kind of like.
So then you don't know, like isthe host body's rights more,
and it's I almost, and I've beenin, you know, the reproductive
justice.
Yeah, you got a lot ofbackground and I've been in.
Joanna (06:02):
You know the reproductive justice.
Sara Kaye (06:04):
Yeah, you've got a lot of background, but at this
point that's why I'm almostsuspicious of it, because the
sentiment has been the sameforever, but they're using this
new.
I don't know if they have toamp it up because women have
made such strides.
I don't know if it's a dogwhistle, I don't know if they're
just trying to busy people Likeso people like us will be
outraged about it.
And so people like us will beoutraged about it.
Joanna (06:25):
But they're trying to busy us with so many things.
Sara Kaye (06:30):
There's so much wrong .
If you want to busy me, justask me to organize something in
my own home.
I won't see you for like fiveyears.
Joanna (06:36):
I'm telling you, I was just telling you about
organizing in the home.
Sara Kaye (06:39):
And you know what?
I'd rather be a host body thana nobody.
Oh zap.
Joanna (06:46):
I'll give you the Z snap .
Sara Kaye (06:48):
Okay, what are we doing here?
We turn to the Bible foranswers, the woman's Bible, the
woman's Bible.
Yeah, Things are getting crazy,so I can't believe that we are
in the New Testament.
Joanna (07:02):
I've been waiting for this because you know, this is
my jam, this is your jam.
Sara Kaye (07:04):
I didn't grow up with the New Testament.
Joanna (07:05):
I've been waiting for this because, you know, this is
my jam, this is your jam.
I didn't grow up with the OldTestament, Just little pieces.
But I'm telling you everySunday.
For the majority of mychildhood I was learning.
Sara Kaye (07:14):
Really.
Joanna (07:15):
Well, you know I like church.
It was very therapeutic for me.
I told you that I liked thelittle readings.
Sara Kaye (07:24):
What was my favorite thing was the Apostles' Creed,
which is also probably why Ilove all the parts again
bringing up Game of Thrones.
But I like when people havelike they have like an oath or a
creed, they have to stand upand say where they're just like.
Joanna (07:38):
I will stand by the wall .
I believe in one God, theFather, the Almighty Maker of
heaven and earth.
See, that's so badass For allthat is seen and unseen.
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
Sara Kaye (07:49):
I love it too.
I don't know if I love it inthe way that I was supposed to
love it, but I was just likeyeah.
Joanna (07:54):
I like saying it, I want like a code.
Sara Kaye (07:56):
I want a creed like that Fist bump, the all that is
seen and unseen.
That's fresh, right, I know.
I know it reminds me of the—.
Joanna (08:03):
You know they changed it a little bit.
They did, yeah, and it happened, you know, a long time ago.
But I don't go to churchregularly anymore, so when I go
it just upsets me because, likemy mind is wired, Is it?
Sara Kaye (08:15):
softer Is it?
Joanna (08:17):
like nicer.
No, they just changed like acouple—I think they were trying
to get people reinvigorated bychanging a couple words Don't
touch the creed man, why Don'ttouch the creed you know I had?
It and now it takes away my joyand I have to read it.
Sara Kaye (08:32):
Yeah, and it's not the same.
I want to stand up and say it.
Joanna (08:33):
It's like instead of saying one thing, you're like am
I right?
It's not yeah.
Sara Kaye (08:45):
It's funny that child and then my favorite parts of,
like game of thrones, where whenthe night watchman would be
like, and now my watch has begunand I will stand with my soul.
I mean that's not what it is,but I but it's, but I'm like I
love that.
Yeah it's just, it's powerful,but it also proves that people
like people, want to be a partof something that is true, so
like a creed or a code or oathis very attractive.
Joanna (09:02):
Okay, so we just need to create this is what.
Okay, so we just need to createa.
This is what we need to do.
We need to create a creed Forhost bodies.
Sara Kaye (09:10):
No, okay, sorry.
Joanna (09:12):
Not for host bodies For bringing back androgyny and
saving the planet.
I just want to save the planet.
I know From rich, evil men andsome women.
Sara Kaye (09:24):
There's a few.
I wonder who are the rich evilmen and some women.
Joanna (09:26):
There's a few I wonder who are the rich, evil women, I
mean aside from the.
Oh, who's Clarence Thomas?
Oh yeah, oh, ginny Thomas,ginny Thomas, she's one.
Sara Kaye (09:33):
She's A number one.
We are in the land of HillsdaleCollege here in Michigan.
Oh they have curriculum.
Joanna (09:41):
you know they got some curriculum.
They got some curriculum.
They just want to get it out toyou.
Sara Kaye (09:47):
Speaking of curriculum Curricula, Is this
our curricula?
This is our curricula.
The New Testament we're gettinginto it.
They have a short.
They, as in Elizabeth CadyStanton and friends, but I think
it's just Elizabeth that doesNope.
Oh it's our first with theanonymous.
Joanna (10:03):
Yeah.
So we have our first anonymouscontributor and I want to know
who it is, because they'rewonderful, they're wonderful and
I'm like why would you not wantto be known?
Sara Kaye (10:12):
So this is pretty much so.
We have an intro to the NewTestament.
The quote at the top says Greatis truth and mighty above all
things.
I love that.
Where is that from Esedrus?
Joanna (10:24):
I read that when I started reading and I was like
oh truth, truth.
Do you remember truth?
No, I remember truth beingimportant.
Sara Kaye (10:33):
And, just like we said in the intro, stanton poses
a question.
She goes does the New Testamentbring promises of new dignity
and larger liberties for women?
And when thinking women makeany criticisms on their degraded
position in the Bible?
Christians point to theirexaltation in the New Testament
as if under their religion womenreally does occupy a higher
position than under the Jewishdispensation.
Joanna (10:55):
While there are grand types of women presented under
both religions, there is nodifference in the general
estimate of sex.
In fact, her inferior positionis more clearly and emphatically
set forth by the apostles thanby the prophets and patriarchs.
There are no specificdirections for women's
(11:16):
subordination in the Pentateuchas in the epistles, which I
found interesting.
So I'm like ooh, she's likey'all ruined the New Testament.
Sara Kaye (11:26):
Shouldn't have left this up to a bunch of dudes.
Look at the dudes.
Joanna (11:30):
Look at what the apostles did.
Sara Kaye (11:33):
And I hear this a lot when, if anybody hears like
what our podcast is about, andthey're like there's lots of
like strong women in the bibleand what about mary?
And I'm like I'm so glad yousaid that because that's what
this is about.
It's not people mistake justhaving like the presence of a
woman, meaning that then it'scool, it's like no, you have to
look at how they are portrayedyeah, that's, mary is a host m.
(11:55):
Mary is.
Mary is the host.
She's the original host body.
Joanna (12:00):
She's the original host body, so I'm like, no, she had
no control over it.
Yeah, bam, you get a baby.
I know.
Sara Kaye (12:09):
And you're the only one.
So Elizabeth says why thefounders of the Christian
religion did not improvise anearthly father as well as an
earthly mother doesn't clearlyappear In the New Testament.
An earthly father as well as anearthly mother doesn't clearly
appear in the New Testament.
The questionable position ofJoseph is unsatisfactory.
As Mary belonged to the Jewisharistocracy, she should have had
a husband of the same rank.
If a heavenly father wasnecessary, why not a heavenly
(12:29):
mother?
So this is where I want topause, because that whole Jewish
aristocracy I had not heardthat.
Have you heard this?
Joanna (12:37):
with mary and joseph no not at all.
I thought she was like a poorlittle shepherd's daughter in my
head made up or maybe maybewasn't made up.
I believe that's kind of likecatechism kind of I mean, that's
how I always, you know, she waslike poor and they had a donkey
and yeah, I was like she wasjust a poor gal.
Sara Kaye (12:54):
That answered the call, but apparently she was.
But I believe that that is adifferent.
So this is where some biblicalscholars and different you know
gone through periods ofinterpretation.
But it does say that somepeople claim Mary's parents were
Joachim and Anne and trace herlineage back to King David.
Joanna (13:13):
Yes.
Sara Kaye (13:14):
And for Christians, the connection to David is
crucial because prophecies statethe Messiah would be a
descendant of King David.
Makes sense.
However, that may be like a,like I said, it might just be an
interpretation.
Joanna (13:27):
But here's the thing, like when you're reading through
this, so we have the biblicaltext, but there's also
historical text.
That's what I found out aboutJosephus.
He is a historian, he's not.
I don't think he was areligious person, he was just a
historian, like writing downhistory, like that's an
important thing.
Okay, yeah, all right.
Sara Kaye (13:48):
So I don't know, I don't know.
I will tell you that it didseem like there were widely
varied opinions on this.
I'm going to say well, becauseit says it in here.
Joanna (13:56):
And Elizabeth is a very learned person and surrounded by
learned people and historians,so she sets this up where she's
like.
Sara Kaye (14:05):
this isn't much better.
If an earthly mother wasadmirable, why not an earthly
father?
The Jewish idea that Jesus wasborn according to natural law is
more rational than is theChristian record of the
Immaculate Conception by theHoly Christ, the third person of
the Trinity.
These biblical mysteries andinconsistencies are a great
strain on the credulity of theordinary mind, and I wrote am I
(14:28):
right?
Joanna (14:28):
Am I?
Right Like I wrote it because Ifeel like I could have wrote
that yeah, am I right?
Sara Kaye (14:33):
to think that it's rational.
Joanna (14:35):
It's more rational and this really hit me because I've
told you before that my daughterhad a very young age.
I have this children's Biblethat was my eldest sister's and
she found it and she was readingit.
But like months later it's likesummertime and all of a sudden
she's like this little peanutand she's like I don't want to
get pregnant.
And I'm like, okay, like okay,girl, just yeah, you know she's
(14:58):
little.
I'm like don't, don't get aboyfriend.
She's like mary didn't get aboyfriend.
I was like oh, oh, like itmarinated, like, and she was
like terrified and I was like,oh, oh, girl, that was like a
once in a ever.
Sara Kaye (15:17):
That was a once in a never situation.
Joanna (15:20):
It was like one time only.
Sara Kaye (15:23):
I forgot that it does strike that fear into like
little girls who are like well,wait what?
Yeah, think about that.
Terrified.
Think about that for a secondhost body I know and maybe even
that idea, I know so even thatidea.
See, elizabeth didn't know itwas in store.
But the idea of immaculateconception also gives all of
these creeps now grounds forbeing like.
(15:45):
Well, look at this.
Joanna (15:46):
Yeah, it's so creepy, it's so creepy.
And that's when I reallystarted like what am I doing?
Like, oh no, what route do I go?
Yeah, and now I've gone downthis route.
So she's been a part of this,because how can you not?
You live with someone.
She knows what we're doing,she's so smart.
But yes, and I love that shesays the ordinary mind, like
(16:09):
everybody can see that that's alittle wonky.
Sara Kaye (16:12):
It's supernatural, magical, it's magical,
supernatural, magical, it'smagical.
That's why it's not when theseVictorian ladies are saying
these superstitions ofChristianity, when they're
saying stuff like that, they'renot being mean, they're just
saying that's what that is.
There's no.
I mean Immaculate Conception.
Come on, but you're going tobase your whole stuff on that.
(16:35):
You know, I mean so this nextsection.
I know you said you had a lotunderlined, so now you have the
first.
Oh, I got to tell them so thisis like our anonymous writer,
and the whole time I'm readingit I'm like, oh yeah, you had to
go anonymous.
Joanna (16:48):
I know it's so good.
Look at this.
Sara Kaye (16:50):
Look at this.
I know the very first.
I'm assuming her you never know.
Joanna (16:55):
Jesus was the great leading radical of his age,
everything he was and said anddid, alienated and angered the
conservatives, those thatrepresented and stood for the
established order of what theybelieved to be fixed and final
(17:15):
revelation of God.
I wrote, and todayconservatives get to ignore all
of his teachings and just makenew ones for him, Because if he
was here he'd be like what areyou doing?
Sara Kaye (17:22):
What?
Joanna (17:22):
are you doing?
Sara Kaye (17:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Joanna (17:24):
I love everybody.
Sara Kaye (17:27):
Well, they like it because of the patriarchal order
and how men are constantlyforgiven and redeemed, yeah,
while they're like controllingother people.
So you know.
Yeah, it works, it works outfor them, it works for them so
she's kind of ripping apart thevirgin bird, I know that's so go
ahead with whatever you get.
Well, I'm like, what do?
Joanna (17:45):
you.
What do you?
Got this whole thing byanonymous is like amazing.
You need to read it and whoeverit is literally says I think
and then says they're anonymousand I just need to know who you
are.
I think that the doctrine ofthe virgin birth as something
higher, sweeter, nobler thanordinary motherhood is a slew on
(18:05):
all the natural motherhood ofthe world.
I place beside the false,monkish, unnatural claim of the
immaculate conception, my mother, who was as holy in her
motherhood as was Mary herself.
Yeah, and all women know that.
Actually, all people who have amother have an idea of what it
(18:29):
takes to be a mother, and Marywas a mother.
And to say that she was moremotherly than anybody else.
It's a slur.
I love that.
Sara Kaye (18:37):
It's a slew of slurs and because that whole noble
divine motherhood is held up.
You can see how that isrepeated.
We talked about thecontradictions that are placed
on women, and that's part of it.
Yeah, you know, like theuntouchable holiest mother, that
we also don't give any rightsor respect to.
Joanna (18:57):
Like, since the paradox is like mind numbing.
Sara Kaye (19:00):
It's crazy, it's mind numbing.
Joanna (19:02):
It's crazy.
I learned about a guy in thissection from Anonymous because I
was like, who is old, fatherTaylor.
Sara Kaye (19:10):
So I do know.
Right here it says the famousMethodist Bethel preacher in
Boston Tell me, yeah.
Joanna (19:14):
So he said he was famous , and when he was asked if he
thought anybody had since livedwho was as good as Jesus, he
said yes, millions of them.
I love that this is Methodistauthority, Because after talking
about birth, they were talkingabout, well, like, aren't there
people?
Weren't there people as good asJesus?
And so this minister was like,yeah, millions of them.
(19:36):
What are you talking about?
And I'm like, oh, that's great.
Why was he so popular?
So then I went down the rabbithole and I'm like I got to know
who this is.
So he lived 1793 to 1887.
So popular in Boston thatDickens even wrote about him.
And this makes me love him,because these are the best
priests, the best leaders, thebest teachers or people who have
(19:57):
been through a struggle.
He was a foster kid, age seven.
He ran away, became a sailor atage seven, shut up.
Sara Kaye (20:03):
Imagine this kid Foster, kid sailor turned priest
.
Joanna (20:08):
How did I miss this?
I know so biblical teachingswith a seaman's language, so it
just really brought everybody.
It was like, who is this guyNow interesting?
He was anti-slavery, impartialto people of color, but hated
abolitionists because theyattacked the church.
So he's a great guy but youknow, everybody has their
(20:31):
feelings little things becausehe loved his church, but very
dynamic teacher and had a greatfollowing and he was like, yeah,
there's lots of great people.
Yeah, you might be Jesus.
You know there's a millionpeople that you can be.
You know, learn from and beinspired by my note here.
Sara Kaye (20:49):
at the end of the thing was like dang.
This is all about how Jesus wasjust a dude.
Yeah, I mean she does say.
Joanna (20:55):
Super great dude.
Yeah Like yeah.
I mean she does say Super greatdude.
Sara Kaye (20:56):
Yeah, like what made Jesus the power he was of his
time.
And she talks about hisinexplicable charm he had an
intellectual power of speech.
Wait, this is reallyinteresting too.
So most of the sayings of Jesusare not original in the sense
that nobody else ever utteredany similar truth before.
Confucius, 6,000 years beforeJesus, gave utterance to the
(21:17):
golden rule.
And then she said that he justhad a lot of sympathy and
tenderness to him.
He was a great personality.
Joanna (21:25):
And he was a good person , so people flapped to him
because he was nice.
Sara Kaye (21:30):
Yeah, the inexplicable charm about his
personality which drew all thecommon people to him, as iron
fillings are drawn to a magnet.
Joanna (21:39):
Yeah, because people are .
You meet people like that.
I mean good people and badpeople, but he yeah, he uses
charisma for good.
Sara Kaye (21:46):
For good, she closes with this gorgeous paragraph,
can I love?
This Can I read this.
You can love read it Can.
Joanna (21:53):
I love read it Because I was like I had to write I love
this.
I finished it and it was like Igot mad.
I was like I had to write Ilove this.
I finished it and I was likeanonymous.
I got mad.
I was like anonymous.
Why can't I know who wrote this?
I mean, she probably signed anote.
Non-disclosure, okay.
When it is dark in the morningand before the sun rises, there
are high peaks that catch thefar off rays and begin to glow
(22:16):
while the rest of the worldstill lies in the shadow.
So there are mountainous men,not supernatural but as natural
as the mountains and the sun.
Mountainous men who catch thelight before our common eyes, on
the plains and in the valleyscan see it, who see and proclaim
(22:38):
from their lofty heightsfar-off visions of truth and
beauty that we as yet cannotdiscern.
Sara Kaye (22:48):
Jesus Anonymous.
Joanna (22:50):
Yeah, like ooh the metaphors, I know.
Oh my gosh, it's gorgeous, thepicture I see, and that's the
Jesus, I know, that's the Jesus.
I know that's the Jesus thatAnne Rice writes about.
Sara Kaye (23:02):
Is it truly?
I know we brought that up lastweek.
I'm like I need to look that up.
I can't believe that book nevertook off.
Joanna (23:07):
It's so great.
Sara Kaye (23:08):
There was two.
Joanna (23:08):
I think, I can?
This is a touchy subject.
Sara Kaye (23:11):
It is, and Anne Rice wrote about vampires and then
Jesus, you're like, well, well,you know, makes sense.
Eternal life, like why is thatsuch a stretch?
Right, think about it, people.
So I really like that intro tothe new testament, because it's
not that they're like this isall bs.
They're like, you know, twomajor points.
The immaculate conception comeon now.
(23:33):
Come on now.
And jesus, being like asupernatural divine, like son of
God, is like, come on now.
Joanna (23:40):
Yeah, these are the two things that we need to remedy.
We need to bring it back, bringit back, bring it back to the
man.
Sara Kaye (23:48):
So we have Bring it back.
Bring it back.
Look at the mountains.
Look at the mountains.
Listen to the.
Anytime you have questions,just read that great paragraph
from Anonymous Right back into Ishouldn't say right back into.
So we're getting into the bookof Matthew, which extends that
idea of like Jesus was just likea gifted you know man,
(24:11):
charismatic, caring, yeah,magnetic, I mean he could be a
prophet.
But just this idea, well, likeI think, magnetic personalities.
Joanna (24:23):
I've always thought of MLK as a prophet.
Sure like yeah.
I mean what is a prophet?
You know?
Sara Kaye (24:30):
What is a prophet?
Joanna (24:31):
anyways.
A prophet is someone who evokesin you a feeling that you need
to be better a feeling that youneed to be better, elizabeth.
Sara Kaye (24:38):
In this response there's just a couple like
Matthew 1, 16 and 17,.
But this is talking about thelineage of Mary and Jesus.
So she says like if, as thescriptures claim, he descended
from heaven, begotten by theHoly Ghost, the incarnation of
God himself, then there wasnothing remarkable in his career
nor miraculous in the seemingwonders which he performed,
(24:58):
being the soul and the center ofall the forces of the universe,
of matter and mind.
Because she's like, why arethey writing about him turning
water into wine?
Like that's like, yeah, becausehe's God.
So she's saying that.
And then she's saying like ifhe was an ideal character, like
the gifted hero of some novel ortragedy, his great deeds and
(25:20):
his wise sayings the result ofthe imagination of some skillful
artist, then we may admire thesketch as a beautiful picture,
(25:40):
worthy example for imitation.
He is deserving of our love andreverence and, by showing us
the possibilities of humannature, he is a constant
inspiration, our hope andsalvation, for the path, however
rough, in which one man haswalked, others may follow yeah,
so why did they have to make itall wackadoodle?
Joanna (25:55):
that's what I mean, like I.
Sara Kaye (25:56):
Well, they have to make it super like again that
supernatural thing, thisunobtainable, it has to be
spectacular for you to careabout it.
Joanna (26:04):
Not you.
The sun on the mountains is notspectacular, is it not?
Have you ever watched?
Sara Kaye (26:09):
that.
But this is the thing, allstories.
It's kind of just like why wedon't go to movies to see just
about like a normal day in thelife.
Right, for a story to beinteresting and grab an audience
, it has to have some likerazzmatazz these books did.
The problem lies in peopletaking it literally, literally.
Yeah, that's the problem, likeelizabeth is trying to say.
(26:32):
But if we look at him like he'sa interesting man, you worthy
example for imitation.
Joanna (26:39):
Now we're talking and you should want to be like him,
because he accepted everyone.
Sara Kaye (26:46):
She also kind of mentions he was kind of like a
stud muffin.
Joanna (26:50):
I know, isn't that funny .
Sara Kaye (26:51):
Yeah, she goes.
It's great physical beauty, Iknow.
Joanna (26:55):
I'm like, yeah, I've seen him.
She didn't see.
I thought that was funny thatthey put that in there too.
I mean, I'm sure he was Goodlooking.
People do draw people in, it'strue.
Sara Kaye (27:05):
But they said that some writers think his mother
was a wise, great and beautifulJewish maiden.
His father a learned rabbi whodevoted much time and thought to
his son's education and, if youthink about it, not a lot of
people were educatedtraditionally about that.
Joanna (27:19):
He went to the temples and sat with them as a young
child, so that makes sense.
But, yeah, but because he wasso outspoken against all the
greed and everything, it madehim a marked man and people
wanted him dead, which we know.
So, for the reasons that weshould adore him, they were the
(27:40):
reasons he was hated, reviled,persecuted and it's sad.
Sara Kaye (27:45):
It's a sad story.
He commands far more love andreverence as a true man with
only human possibilities than asa God superior to all human
frailties and temptations.
I agree.
Joanna (27:56):
I agree with this writing.
All human frailties andtemptations, I agree.
I agree with this writing.
Sara Kaye (27:59):
So tell me what else you found out about or what you
liked in this the comments onMatthew.
Joanna (28:08):
Well, mr Matthew was basically telling the story.
He's basically the, he's theguy that really gives the
lineage of my man, jesus.
But they talk about the birth,the story that we know.
You know, they saw the star,they followed the star and they
guided him to the house wherethis young child was.
And, of course, the king atthat time was like another king.
(28:29):
I gotta kill that guy.
Sara Kaye (28:30):
He's like?
I don't think so.
And this is where we talk aboutthe Magi's who came from Arabia
to give him.
You know, three wise men.
They Moravia to give him.
Joanna (28:36):
You know three wise men.
They saw him as a baby, theyknew right away he was something
special, yep, and they didn'tturn him in.
And this is where King Herodtakes his place in the story.
Sara Kaye (28:48):
I know and I had to pause because I always knew, we
always heard that, like thethree magi, or you know the magi
, so they call them magians.
Did you know what that says?
Joanna (28:58):
No, well, I think I read it.
I mean, we kind of get it,they're from a certain area.
Sara Kaye (29:07):
Yeah, they're from.
You know.
They're the followers of theancient Persian religion of
Zoroastrianism Zoroastrianism orits precursor often associated
with priests and religiouspractices involving astrology
and fire worship.
Joanna (29:18):
Okay.
It's kind of like an ancientpersian, so this makes sense.
They saw a meteor.
Yeah, they followed.
It ended up.
What if jesus is just a dude?
Sara Kaye (29:28):
he's just a dude that was under a cool star.
He was like hey, it was themeteor showers, we were over
here just discovered somethingon our own I know I oh my gosh.
I know they were astrologersyeah.
Joanna (29:42):
I mean they were involved.
Sara Kaye (29:43):
You know they involved astrology.
See, this is what I'm like.
Astrology is one of the oldesttraditions of kind of
understanding when we are Ourplace in space.
Yeah and yeah where we are, ourplace in space.
Joanna (30:03):
yeah, so it was the uh major religion ancient persia
and it was a dualistic worldviewof good and evil isn't that,
which I think that is the onething I can get behind, because
that is literally what I'mwatching happening.
Sara Kaye (30:13):
I know well this.
This is like a monotheistic, soI don't know if you really want
to get into this though butthey were but so they were um a
priestly class associated.
The Magi's were.
So I just thought that was kindof neat.
That is neat, but that makessense with their star and
everything.
Joanna (30:26):
I love that they followed the star, found Jesus,
gave him gifts Yep and pissedoff the king because they were
like this baby's special.
So the king wants to kill theJesus baby?
Yeah, of course, little babyJesus.
And this really pissed off theking.
And then, apparently, the womanthat's talked about in this
(30:52):
section with Herod is niece toboth of her husbands.
So, king Herod, she was marriedto someone else and then he
went off to another country.
She was married to someone elseand then he went off to another
country and the girl Herodesis,she had a baby with the first
guy he left.
There was a new guy and she waslike hey also.
Hey, uncle, do you want tomarry me now, because you know
(31:15):
my other uncle left and I onlyhave this baby?
No, it doesn't really say itthat way, but that's exactly
what happened.
And John the Baptist stepped inand said hey, that's against
the law and that's really wrongthat you're doing that.
Sara Kaye (31:30):
And that really ticked her off.
Joanna (31:31):
That's right Well this is one interpretation of the
story Ticked her off and shedirected well, then her daughter
comes in dance and harrod'slike oh, I like your dancing,
I'll give you whatever you want.
Also very creepy, very petty,um, pedoey, um, she's like I'll
give you whatever you want.
(31:52):
And her mom is like girl, youbetter ask for john the
baptist's head.
And so she does.
I mean she could ask foranything.
Instead she takes she's likeall right, mom, get John's head,
because he said that you're ahoe bag, not I mean.
Essentially that's what it is intoday's terms.
And so LCS says it must havebeen a great trial to the
(32:18):
daughter, who might have askedfor so many beautiful gifts and
rare indulgences to yield to herwicked mother's revenge.
But these deeds were speedilyavenged.
It is said that Salome thedaughter, had her head cut off
by the ice breaking as shepassed over it.
Herod was shortly after engagedin a disastrous war on account
(32:40):
of the same lady and wasexpelled from his territories,
and both died in exile, hated byeverybody and hating one
another.
It's horrible.
There you go, major karma.
But that story is then refuted.
This EBD says, which is currentamong the theological scandal
mongers there is not amoderately intelligent jury of
(33:03):
Christendom if composed halfwomen, half men, which, after
examining all the availableevidence, would not render, and
disgrace for the head of Johnthe Baptist is an assertion born
wholly of the ecclesiasticaldistorted imagination.
(33:24):
Not even a hint, much less aniota, of proof to warrant such
an assertion is found anywherein history, sacred or profane.
And then she says, christiancenturies did put into
circulation the charge that Johnthe Baptist was put to death at
the instigation of Herodias,the girl that had two husbands,
without implicating herdaughter's character, however,
(33:47):
but but Josephus, on the otherhand, contrarily, explicitly
declares that his death waswholly a political matter, but I
will tell you this about ourawesome EBD.
If you'll recall.
Sara Kaye (34:06):
This is kind of who the book is dedicated to because
she was a contributor thatpassed away, kind of who the
book is dedicated to because shewas a contributor that passed
away.
She died in Boston on November25th 1895, at the age of 48.
And so she was alive for thefirst part of the Women's Bible,
but the second part, whichthere I think are five different
(34:28):
parts where she contributes shewas passed away early.
Joanna (34:30):
Oh, my gosh 48.
That's so young.
Sara Kaye (34:32):
But she is a rad lady , another one, and so she was a
suffragist and author who wasactive in the movements and
organizations in Kentucky andMassachusetts.
She married a Dietrich dude inBaltimore and they moved to
Covington, kentucky.
But she establishedorganizations to aid women an
educational industrial union, aday nursery, a cooperative
(34:53):
bakery and cooking school and ahome for elderly women.
Joanna (34:57):
Oh, my gosh who has the time?
She's younger than me.
I've done nothing.
I've done nothing.
Sara Kaye (35:00):
We've done nothing with our lives Like you don't
have.
She campaigned for civic reformin areas such as jail
conditions, oh, and citygovernment, and this little bio
says, like it was said of her,that she quote unquote ran the
town.
Isn't that awesome?
Yeah, she played a large partin this woman's Bible.
You know how it came to be.
(35:21):
So it's just really.
She's a really cool lady.
She lectured on equal rightsand wrote for various
publications, including theWomen's Journal.
But she wrote a book in 1889,the Families of John and Jake,
and it's a treatise on therelations between labor and
capital following two families,one prosperous and the other
poor.
I need to get my hands on that.
Joanna (35:42):
Oh, you do.
Sara Kaye (35:43):
Yes.
Joanna (35:44):
Oh my gosh, that's so needed right now.
Sara Kaye (35:47):
I know I'm like I want to read a labor and capital
book by a lady writer, Right,isn't that neat.
And then she wrote another bookabout women in the early
Christian ministry, a Refutationof Christian Teachings that
Relegated Women to Second ClassStatus in the World.
So this is I think this is thethird contributor that has a
separate text about this verytopic.
(36:07):
So I mean, these ladies werejust totally smart and awesome.
And then she just wrote acouple books and set up, you
know, pantries and schools andnurseries and baking and a
cooperative bakery.
What I've done?
Nothing.
I know what are we doing.
Joanna (36:26):
We got to get off the social media and start planting
potatoes.
Yeah, exactly, I don't know.
Sara Kaye (36:32):
I mean, what the heck ?
And she's a great writer.
Now I did notice and I know wecan, only we'll go through a few
of these things.
I was a little worried aboutthis part in the New Testament
because the second part of theWomen's Bible.
I was like they're a littleless sassy because they do have
a lot more paragraphs that arekind of historical summaries
right or story summaries.
Joanna (36:53):
So but this is what I want to read, what she said
about josephus, because that'swhat made me look him up she
said um well, they were tryingto figure out like was the lady
a really bad chick for takingjohn's head, and just because
she couldn't have her cake andeat it too?
Now the jury must remember thatJosephus was born in Jerusalem
(37:15):
about 38 AD, that he was aneducated man and in a position
to know the facts in this caseowing both to his prominent
position among the Jews and tohis study of contemporaneous
history, but that, on the otherhand, the anonymous writers who
bring Herodias' name into thetransaction are not traceable
(37:38):
further back than the 4thcentury of our era.
Oh wait, that's how I have itwrong.
That's 301 CE 400 CE, sorry.
Josephus was 38 AD, very closeto the you know common era of
Jesus, just 38 years after, andthat they do not, and that even
(38:03):
they do not bring any chargeagainst her character as a
mother.
They delivered the head.
Sara Kaye (38:08):
That was another story.
As a kid I remember the Jackson.
Baptist.
They left out the background ofthat.
Now that I'm hearing Yetanother Bible story where I'm
like well, you didn't tell meabout the creep behind all that.
Joanna (38:19):
Yeah, okay, creepy, okay , I did want to say so they're
talking about, you know, firstof all, mary is, you know, a
virgin, kind of weird Jesus,probably just a normal man, but
did some great things for people.
And you hear about the miraclesthat are, like you know,
bringing people to life, andthat's what he's famous for,
(38:41):
right, that's why people wentand followed him.
According to the Bible that Iread, the writer here says we
might doubt the truth of allthese miracles.
Did we not see so manywonderful things in our own day
which we would have pronouncedimpossible years ago?
The fact of human powerdeveloping in so many remarkable
waves proves that Jesus's giftof performing miracles is
(39:03):
attainable by those who, likehim, live pure lives and whose
blood flows in the higher arcsof the brain.
If one man, at any period ofthe world's history, performed
miracles, others equally giftedmay do the same.
And I said let's do it, andthat's where we save the world.
Sara Kaye (39:26):
Yeah, and I wrote my little note says ooh, these
Victorian ladies are really likeanyone can be Jesus.
That's why you listen to thispodcast.
For that kind of expert, thatis like expert, so get on it and
start miracling.
They really only picked just afew passages from Matthew, and
(39:51):
so chapter two in Matthew isthis is this story, and already
I was like what the?
So it's about the kingdom ofheaven be like in 10 virgins and
it's something they're at somelike wedding oh, who's ever
getting married?
Joanna (40:06):
this parable, is it a parable?
Sara Kaye (40:07):
it's a parable about a wedding and there's 10 virgins
.
Again, I Again.
Joanna (40:11):
I'm like one bridegroom, yeah, ten virgins, fight it out
.
Sara Kaye (40:16):
I mean again.
And in fact the response tothis I'm like how come the
ladies aren't even mentioning,like why does one guy get ten
women again?
Joanna (40:25):
But there's a— 1895.
They're like well, you know.
Sara Kaye (40:29):
So, but it is a parable about the bridegroom.
And so he has 10 virgins.
Five of them had, like, filledtheir lamps with lamp oil.
Five of them didn't.
They weren't prepared.
They weren't prepared, butapparently it's a metaphor about
keeping your own light lit.
Yeah, that's what the lady saidI couldn't get past the 10
(40:51):
virgins, so you go ahead.
Oh, that's what the lady said Icouldn't get past the ten
virgins.
Joanna (40:54):
So you go ahead.
Oh my god, this actually.
Sara Kaye (40:57):
I was like this is great, because there's two
interpretations.
Joanna (40:59):
There's like the male interpretation, which is you
know, well, you know thoseladies, you know they didn't get
the guy because they weren'tprepared.
These ladies are like yeah,you're missing the point, Dummy.
Exactly, let me tell you whatthis parable, because this is a
great parable and it means thatwe ladies need to stop relying
(41:21):
on these yahoos and get ourasses into the government and
change the freaking laws.
That's what they were saying,Unquote.
That's the parable.
That's exactly.
That's the parable.
That's the parable.
That's the parable.
That's the parable.
We can take care of ourselvesand light our own damn lamps.
Sara Kaye (41:39):
I love this.
I'll tell you about my hostbody.
I know I love and I love thisterm, so she writes the idea of
being a help me to somebody else.
I was like help me, that's likean old school meat cue, right.
What is this?
The idea of being a help meatto somebody else has been so
(42:01):
sedulously drilled into mostwomen that an individual life,
aim, purpose and ambition arenever taken into consideration.
They oftentimes do so much inother directions that they
neglect the most vital duties tothemselves.
Fill that lamp with oil, comeon, yeah, and that's what Help
meet I love that I was likethat's fantastic.
Joanna (42:26):
I know I'm done being your help.
Meet Help meet.
Sara Kaye (42:30):
So the last part, and this is ECS right.
Joanna (42:34):
This I see it doesn't say there.
I think so, though.
Sara Kaye (42:37):
ECS.
Ecs is dropping knowledge.
Joanna (42:39):
Oh yeah, yeah, she does the whole end.
Sara Kaye (42:41):
So that's what Elizabeth writes about her
interpretation of that parable.
I was like, yeah, that's muchbetter than like if you don't do
this, you won't get a boyfriend.
So women's devotion to thecomfort, the education, the
success of men in general intotheir plans and projects is in
great measure due to herself-abnegation and
self-sacrifice, having been solong and so sweetly lauded by
(43:05):
poets, philosophers and priestsas the acme of human goodness
and glory, and so is this thepart.
I don't want to step on yourthing, but now, to my mind,
there's nothing commendable inthe action of young women who go
about begging funds to educateyoung men for the ministry,
while they and the majority oftheir sex are too poor to
educate themselves and, if able,are still denied admittance
(43:27):
into some of the leadinginstitutions and learning
throughout our land.
Joanna (43:31):
Yeah, that's why we got the women's rights.
Sara Kaye (43:33):
I know it is not commendable for women to get up
fairs and donation parties forchurches in which the gifted of
their sex may neither pray,preach, share in the offices and
honors nor have a voice in thebusiness affairs, creeds and
discipline, and from whosealtars come forth biblical
interpretations in favor ofwomen's subjection.
(43:54):
Elizabeth I mean she, you knowwhat.
You think you can run out ofways to tell people to fuck off.
Joanna (44:02):
But yet here's proof.
Like I was like yeah, I'm goingwith you Again.
Sara Kaye (44:09):
Actually she's not telling people to F up, she's
just kind of like ladies, wakeup, You're doing that much
fundraising and all this stuffand you don't even get to go to
the damn school, right?
Joanna (44:22):
Are you kidding me, right?
What are you doing?
Right, light your own damn lamp, get your lamp full.
So yeah, in their ignorance,women sacrifice themselves to
educate the men of theirhouseholds and go to make
themselves ladders by whichtheir husbands brothers, sons
(44:42):
climb up into the kingdom ofknowledge, while they themselves
are shut out from allintellectual companionship, even
with those they love best.
Sara Kaye (44:53):
Such are indeed, like the foolish virgins, those five
without oil, right, unlike thesmart virgins.
I know that this is what you'retalking about when you're
talking about virgins.
Joanna (45:03):
You're like wait, why are they just like the virgins?
Can we talk about the virgins,ladies?
Sara Kaye (45:09):
Can we talk about why , again, we have polygamy?
Can we talk about the virginsladies?
Can we talk about why, again,we have polygamy?
Can we talk about that?
Joanna (45:15):
It's funny because they never talk about that and I
think it's hilarious.
I know, I know, don't be afoolish virgin, be a smart
virgin.
Sara Kaye (45:23):
But I can't tell you the rest.
I mean this will turn into anaudio book.
Joanna (45:28):
She writes I was like oh , this is her feeling.
Sara Kaye (45:31):
Yep.
Joanna (45:34):
The to an audio book.
She writes this is I was like,oh, this is her feeling.
Yep, the solitude of ignorance.
Oh, who can measure its misery?
Sara Kaye (45:40):
she's so I know who can measure it elizabeth katie's
she is.
So I mean, this is almost whereI'm like you should buy the
book just to read this part,just this, because there really
is.
Joanna (45:51):
There's even more more about, like the ignorance and
degradation of the past.
As in grand procession, theyenter the temple of knowledge
and the door is no longer shutthis is when we take over.
This is, this is I'm tellingyou 1895, by 2025, women are
gonna just rule things.
Sara Kaye (46:12):
I yeah, she's like the door is no longer shut.
Joanna (46:15):
It's not shut.
We have the oil, let's ride.
Sara Kaye (46:22):
The lanterns are lit.
You know what I'm saying.
Joanna (46:26):
Yeah, I mean, that's the main thing.
I think she's like women, takeback your power.
Quit being a ladder when you'regetting nothing.
What are you getting bybuilding these churches?
What are you getting by makingall the cakes at the bake sale?
What, what is that doing foryou?
Sara Kaye (46:42):
yeah, so it feels great.
Feels great to be in the newtestament.
Don't you just feel like you'rein a super church?
I wish we had an electricguitar or something.
You know what I'm saying.
In our next episode we'll bediscussing the Victorian
feminist take on the books ofMark and Luke.
Can't wait.
Do you have any hot takes orinsights on the books in the New
(47:04):
Testament?
Reach out.
Our contact details are in theshow notes.
Don't?
Joanna (47:09):
forget a great way to resist fascism is to support
independent media.
So like, comment, subscribe andshare this podcast liberally,
like you put on sunblock.
Sara Kaye (47:19):
Thank you for listening and we hope to see you
next week.
You bring your ears, We'llbring the virgins and the lamp
oil.
Joanna (47:27):
I love it, keep it weird .
How's it going?
Host bodies How's the host bodydoing?
How's your host body going?
Who are you hosting lately?
Joanna (00:09):
So sad because we both have so many little girls in our
lives.
Sara Kaye (00:12):
I know I'm thinking of good podcast titles for
Welcome to Host with the MostHost Body Podcast, the Host Body
Podcast how to keep your bodyhostable or un-hostable.
Joanna (00:26):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Sara Kaye (00:28):
Yeah, how to get a one-star rating on your host
body, so no one ever tries tostay there.
It's the podcast that.
Joanna (00:37):
Saucy Serpent warned you about.
Sara Kaye (00:40):
Welcome to Biting All the Apples where two gals
discuss one radical book, thebest-selling critical and
comedic masterpiece from 1895,the Woman's Bible by Elizabeth
Cady Stanton.
Joanna (01:06):
I'm Sarah Kay.
I'm Sarah Kay.
Sara Kaye (01:10):
I'm Joanna B hey.
New Testament.
Who dis who?
Joanna (01:12):
dis who dis.
That's right, we made it.
Sara Kaye (01:16):
That's right.
We are moving into the part ofthe Bible with chapter names
that even I can pronounce.
I'm looking at you Matthew,mark, luke and John John.
This sounds modern, right, likeso modern that this is where
the Bible gets morelady-friendly.
Well, our cherished Victorianfeminist, elizabeth Cady Stanton
, tells us no, not at all.
From the looks of her intro tothe New Testament and the
(01:39):
woman's Bible, we're in for areal ride on the patriarchy
train.
We'll go over her intro and getinto the analysis of the book
of Matthew.
We're talking lineage magis andlots of virgins, all the
virgins, all the virgins.
Because, yeah, apparentlythey're still coming at us in
large quantities, these biblicalvirgins.
(02:01):
So grab a cup of something ortie your laces on for that walk.
We're getting into it rightafter our friendly disclaimers.
Joanna (02:09):
Biting All the Apples covers analysis of religious
texts.
Some listeners that arereligious out of the need for
the illusion of certainty mayfind the content offensive.
Biting All the Apples alsodiscusses historic texts and
feminist movements.
We recognize that individuals,groups and alternative movements
have been left out ofmainstream history.
We will note that wheneverpossible, we are open to
(02:33):
additional information providedto us in the spirit of expanding
knowledge.
Yes, you know.
Sara Kaye (02:39):
Here I am.
Here I am, Expand my knowledge.
I debated on changing the introformat because now we're in the
New Testament, I'm like do weneed new disclaimers?
But I don't, you know do we?
Joanna (02:53):
No, because I'm telling you from what I read definitely
needed, Because this is going tothrow some people.
For a whoo-hoo, this is goingto throw some people.
If you're listening to thepodcast, you probably thought
these things already.
But it's just like validation.
Yeah, the disclaimers areneeded.
I don't know how we change it,except now we're in the New
Testament.
Sara Kaye (03:14):
Well, I mean, should we shorten it?
Do people get the idea?
Joanna (03:16):
It's good.
Oh yeah, I guess we could justbe like check back on the other
If you made it this far.
Sara Kaye (03:23):
You don't need the disclaimer.
You know, what listeners maynot know is that we've really
it's taken us 30 minutes to dothat.
One minute intro.
Joanna (03:30):
It did.
Sara Kaye (03:31):
It did.
People don't know.
People don't know.
There's so many differentfactors, like I have ligament
laxity and run into crap all thetime.
Ooh, ligament, laxity, I don'tknow if that's a real thing.
Joanna (03:42):
But I have it Is that when you just like run into
things even though you knowthey're there, yeah.
Or if you have like 10 thingsin your hand and you're like
I'll get one more and then youtrip and you lose them all, yeah
, and you're like it takes you10 times longer?
Sara Kaye (03:52):
Or if there's only one place in an entire room
where you could possibly stubyour toe, I'm going to go find
it.
Joanna (03:58):
Yeah, to it.
Sara Kaye (04:00):
I want to get hurt.
Joanna (04:02):
Let me cut my hand as I'm trying to chop an avocado.
Sara Kaye (04:07):
It'll happen.
It'll happen.
You know what?
What can we say?
We're people that are in life.
Joanna (04:12):
That's right.
We don't have time to slow downand look for things that we're
going to stub our toe on,exactly, and I never know Doors
that accost your arm and bruiseyou for weeks.
You don't know if you're aliveuntil you know you get to like
(04:32):
bleed every so often.
I mean, we're chicks, that'show it goes.
That's true.
It's true.
I don't know if I'm progressingunless I drop some blood from
my host body.
That is important.
Sara Kaye (04:36):
Is that from this week?
Joanna (04:37):
I know, you know, it's the first time I've been
referred to as a host body inlike real life.
Sara Kaye (04:47):
I'm starting to think Okay, so in real life there was
something, something eclipsecirculating, but it looked like
it was some kind of podcast.
Joanna (04:52):
It was some you know, it was some kind of jack ballers
with a podcast.
Sara Kaye (04:59):
It looked like it was a conference, something in
florida of course, it wasdefinitely in florida.
It was florida, it was florida,florida the new country but I
think I'm starting to see peoplesay such shocking things.
One, it is terrifying, but two,it's making me question how
much we should be respondingwith outrage, because that is
(05:20):
how the misinformation andpropaganda stuff works.
So what we're talking about isthere was some guy in a suit
talking about women as hostbodies yeah, for babies.
Joanna (05:33):
Well, basically he was explaining the abortion laws and
he just, instead of saying themother, you know, could have
these issues.
She was no longer referred toas anything but a host for a
parasite which will be her childif she makes it through.
Sara Kaye (05:53):
Oh yeah, and he was kind of like.
So then you don't know, like isthe host body's rights more,
and it's I almost, and I've beenin, you know, the reproductive
justice.
Yeah, you got a lot ofbackground and I've been in.
Joanna (06:02):
You know the reproductive justice.
Sara Kaye (06:04):
Yeah, you've got a lot of background, but at this
point that's why I'm almostsuspicious of it, because the
sentiment has been the sameforever, but they're using this
new.
I don't know if they have toamp it up because women have
made such strides.
I don't know if it's a dogwhistle, I don't know if they're
just trying to busy people Likeso people like us will be
outraged about it.
And so people like us will beoutraged about it.
Joanna (06:25):
But they're trying to busy us with so many things.
Sara Kaye (06:30):
There's so much wrong .
If you want to busy me, justask me to organize something in
my own home.
I won't see you for like fiveyears.
Joanna (06:36):
I'm telling you, I was just telling you about
organizing in the home.
Sara Kaye (06:39):
And you know what?
I'd rather be a host body thana nobody.
Oh zap.
Joanna (06:46):
I'll give you the Z snap .
Sara Kaye (06:48):
Okay, what are we doing here?
We turn to the Bible foranswers, the woman's Bible, the
woman's Bible.
Yeah, Things are getting crazy,so I can't believe that we are
in the New Testament.
Joanna (07:02):
I've been waiting for this because you know, this is
my jam, this is your jam.
Sara Kaye (07:04):
I didn't grow up with the New Testament.
Joanna (07:05):
I've been waiting for this because, you know, this is
my jam, this is your jam.
I didn't grow up with the OldTestament, Just little pieces.
But I'm telling you everySunday.
For the majority of mychildhood I was learning.
Sara Kaye (07:14):
Really.
Joanna (07:15):
Well, you know I like church.
It was very therapeutic for me.
I told you that I liked thelittle readings.
Sara Kaye (07:24):
What was my favorite thing was the Apostles' Creed,
which is also probably why Ilove all the parts again
bringing up Game of Thrones.
But I like when people havelike they have like an oath or a
creed, they have to stand upand say where they're just like.
Joanna (07:38):
I will stand by the wall .
I believe in one God, theFather, the Almighty Maker of
heaven and earth.
See, that's so badass For allthat is seen and unseen.
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
Sara Kaye (07:49):
I love it too.
I don't know if I love it inthe way that I was supposed to
love it, but I was just likeyeah.
Joanna (07:54):
I like saying it, I want like a code.
Sara Kaye (07:56):
I want a creed like that Fist bump, the all that is
seen and unseen.
That's fresh, right, I know.
I know it reminds me of the—.
Joanna (08:03):
You know they changed it a little bit.
They did, yeah, and it happened, you know, a long time ago.
But I don't go to churchregularly anymore, so when I go
it just upsets me because, likemy mind is wired, Is it?
Sara Kaye (08:15):
softer Is it?
Joanna (08:17):
like nicer.
No, they just changed like acouple—I think they were trying
to get people reinvigorated bychanging a couple words Don't
touch the creed man, why Don'ttouch the creed you know I had?
It and now it takes away my joyand I have to read it.
Sara Kaye (08:32):
Yeah, and it's not the same.
I want to stand up and say it.
Joanna (08:33):
It's like instead of saying one thing, you're like am
I right?
It's not yeah.
Sara Kaye (08:45):
It's funny that child and then my favorite parts of,
like game of thrones, where whenthe night watchman would be
like, and now my watch has begunand I will stand with my soul.
I mean that's not what it is,but I but it's, but I'm like I
love that.
Yeah it's just, it's powerful,but it also proves that people
like people, want to be a partof something that is true, so
like a creed or a code or oathis very attractive.
Joanna (09:02):
Okay, so we just need to create this is what.
Okay, so we just need to createa.
This is what we need to do.
We need to create a creed Forhost bodies.
Sara Kaye (09:10):
No, okay, sorry.
Joanna (09:12):
Not for host bodies For bringing back androgyny and
saving the planet.
I just want to save the planet.
I know From rich, evil men andsome women.
Sara Kaye (09:24):
There's a few.
I wonder who are the rich evilmen and some women.
Joanna (09:26):
There's a few I wonder who are the rich, evil women, I
mean aside from the.
Oh, who's Clarence Thomas?
Oh yeah, oh, ginny Thomas,ginny Thomas, she's one.
Sara Kaye (09:33):
She's A number one.
We are in the land of HillsdaleCollege here in Michigan.
Oh they have curriculum.
Joanna (09:41):
you know they got some curriculum.
They got some curriculum.
They just want to get it out toyou.
Sara Kaye (09:47):
Speaking of curriculum Curricula, Is this
our curricula?
This is our curricula.
The New Testament we're gettinginto it.
They have a short.
They, as in Elizabeth CadyStanton and friends, but I think
it's just Elizabeth that doesNope.
Oh it's our first with theanonymous.
Joanna (10:03):
Yeah.
So we have our first anonymouscontributor and I want to know
who it is, because they'rewonderful, they're wonderful and
I'm like why would you not wantto be known?
Sara Kaye (10:12):
So this is pretty much so.
We have an intro to the NewTestament.
The quote at the top says Greatis truth and mighty above all
things.
I love that.
Where is that from Esedrus?
Joanna (10:24):
I read that when I started reading and I was like
oh truth, truth.
Do you remember truth?
No, I remember truth beingimportant.
Sara Kaye (10:33):
And, just like we said in the intro, stanton poses
a question.
She goes does the New Testamentbring promises of new dignity
and larger liberties for women?
And when thinking women makeany criticisms on their degraded
position in the Bible?
Christians point to theirexaltation in the New Testament
as if under their religion womenreally does occupy a higher
position than under the Jewishdispensation.
Joanna (10:55):
While there are grand types of women presented under
both religions, there is nodifference in the general
estimate of sex.
In fact, her inferior positionis more clearly and emphatically
set forth by the apostles thanby the prophets and patriarchs.
There are no specificdirections for women's
(11:16):
subordination in the Pentateuchas in the epistles, which I
found interesting.
So I'm like ooh, she's likey'all ruined the New Testament.
Sara Kaye (11:26):
Shouldn't have left this up to a bunch of dudes.
Look at the dudes.
Joanna (11:30):
Look at what the apostles did.
Sara Kaye (11:33):
And I hear this a lot when, if anybody hears like
what our podcast is about, andthey're like there's lots of
like strong women in the bibleand what about mary?
And I'm like I'm so glad yousaid that because that's what
this is about.
It's not people mistake justhaving like the presence of a
woman, meaning that then it'scool, it's like no, you have to
look at how they are portrayedyeah, that's, mary is a host m.
(11:55):
Mary is.
Mary is the host.
She's the original host body.
Joanna (12:00):
She's the original host body, so I'm like, no, she had
no control over it.
Yeah, bam, you get a baby.
I know.
Sara Kaye (12:09):
And you're the only one.
So Elizabeth says why thefounders of the Christian
religion did not improvise anearthly father as well as an
earthly mother doesn't clearlyappear In the New Testament.
An earthly father as well as anearthly mother doesn't clearly
appear in the New Testament.
The questionable position ofJoseph is unsatisfactory.
As Mary belonged to the Jewisharistocracy, she should have had
a husband of the same rank.
If a heavenly father wasnecessary, why not a heavenly
(12:29):
mother?
So this is where I want topause, because that whole Jewish
aristocracy I had not heardthat.
Have you heard this?
Joanna (12:37):
with mary and joseph no not at all.
I thought she was like a poorlittle shepherd's daughter in my
head made up or maybe maybewasn't made up.
I believe that's kind of likecatechism kind of I mean, that's
how I always, you know, she waslike poor and they had a donkey
and yeah, I was like she wasjust a poor gal.
Sara Kaye (12:54):
That answered the call, but apparently she was.
But I believe that that is adifferent.
So this is where some biblicalscholars and different you know
gone through periods ofinterpretation.
But it does say that somepeople claim Mary's parents were
Joachim and Anne and trace herlineage back to King David.
Joanna (13:13):
Yes.
Sara Kaye (13:14):
And for Christians, the connection to David is
crucial because prophecies statethe Messiah would be a
descendant of King David.
Makes sense.
However, that may be like a,like I said, it might just be an
interpretation.
Joanna (13:27):
But here's the thing, like when you're reading through
this, so we have the biblicaltext, but there's also
historical text.
That's what I found out aboutJosephus.
He is a historian, he's not.
I don't think he was areligious person, he was just a
historian, like writing downhistory, like that's an
important thing.
Okay, yeah, all right.
Sara Kaye (13:48):
So I don't know, I don't know.
I will tell you that it didseem like there were widely
varied opinions on this.
I'm going to say well, becauseit says it in here.
Joanna (13:56):
And Elizabeth is a very learned person and surrounded by
learned people and historians,so she sets this up where she's
like.
Sara Kaye (14:05):
this isn't much better.
If an earthly mother wasadmirable, why not an earthly
father?
The Jewish idea that Jesus wasborn according to natural law is
more rational than is theChristian record of the
Immaculate Conception by theHoly Christ, the third person of
the Trinity.
These biblical mysteries andinconsistencies are a great
strain on the credulity of theordinary mind, and I wrote am I
(14:28):
right?
Joanna (14:28):
Am I?
Right Like I wrote it because Ifeel like I could have wrote
that yeah, am I right?
Sara Kaye (14:33):
to think that it's rational.
Joanna (14:35):
It's more rational and this really hit me because I've
told you before that my daughterhad a very young age.
I have this children's Biblethat was my eldest sister's and
she found it and she was readingit.
But like months later it's likesummertime and all of a sudden
she's like this little peanutand she's like I don't want to
get pregnant.
And I'm like, okay, like okay,girl, just yeah, you know she's
(14:58):
little.
I'm like don't, don't get aboyfriend.
She's like mary didn't get aboyfriend.
I was like oh, oh, like itmarinated, like, and she was
like terrified and I was like,oh, oh, girl, that was like a
once in a ever.
Sara Kaye (15:17):
That was a once in a never situation.
Joanna (15:20):
It was like one time only.
Sara Kaye (15:23):
I forgot that it does strike that fear into like
little girls who are like well,wait what?
Yeah, think about that.
Terrified.
Think about that for a secondhost body I know and maybe even
that idea, I know so even thatidea.
See, elizabeth didn't know itwas in store.
But the idea of immaculateconception also gives all of
these creeps now grounds forbeing like.
(15:45):
Well, look at this.
Joanna (15:46):
Yeah, it's so creepy, it's so creepy.
And that's when I reallystarted like what am I doing?
Like, oh no, what route do I go?
Yeah, and now I've gone downthis route.
So she's been a part of this,because how can you not?
You live with someone.
She knows what we're doing,she's so smart.
But yes, and I love that shesays the ordinary mind, like
(16:09):
everybody can see that that's alittle wonky.
Sara Kaye (16:12):
It's supernatural, magical, it's magical,
supernatural, magical, it'smagical.
That's why it's not when theseVictorian ladies are saying
these superstitions ofChristianity, when they're
saying stuff like that, they'renot being mean, they're just
saying that's what that is.
There's no.
I mean Immaculate Conception.
Come on, but you're going tobase your whole stuff on that.
(16:35):
You know, I mean so this nextsection.
I know you said you had a lotunderlined, so now you have the
first.
Oh, I got to tell them so thisis like our anonymous writer,
and the whole time I'm readingit I'm like, oh yeah, you had to
go anonymous.
Joanna (16:48):
I know it's so good.
Look at this.
Sara Kaye (16:50):
Look at this.
I know the very first.
I'm assuming her you never know.
Joanna (16:55):
Jesus was the great leading radical of his age,
everything he was and said anddid, alienated and angered the
conservatives, those thatrepresented and stood for the
established order of what theybelieved to be fixed and final
(17:15):
revelation of God.
I wrote, and todayconservatives get to ignore all
of his teachings and just makenew ones for him, Because if he
was here he'd be like what areyou doing?
Sara Kaye (17:22):
What?
Joanna (17:22):
are you doing?
Sara Kaye (17:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Joanna (17:24):
I love everybody.
Sara Kaye (17:27):
Well, they like it because of the patriarchal order
and how men are constantlyforgiven and redeemed, yeah,
while they're like controllingother people.
So you know.
Yeah, it works, it works outfor them, it works for them so
she's kind of ripping apart thevirgin bird, I know that's so go
ahead with whatever you get.
Well, I'm like, what do?
Joanna (17:45):
you.
What do you?
Got this whole thing byanonymous is like amazing.
You need to read it and whoeverit is literally says I think
and then says they're anonymousand I just need to know who you
are.
I think that the doctrine ofthe virgin birth as something
higher, sweeter, nobler thanordinary motherhood is a slew on
(18:05):
all the natural motherhood ofthe world.
I place beside the false,monkish, unnatural claim of the
immaculate conception, my mother, who was as holy in her
motherhood as was Mary herself.
Yeah, and all women know that.
Actually, all people who have amother have an idea of what it
(18:29):
takes to be a mother, and Marywas a mother.
And to say that she was moremotherly than anybody else.
It's a slur.
I love that.
Sara Kaye (18:37):
It's a slew of slurs and because that whole noble
divine motherhood is held up.
You can see how that isrepeated.
We talked about thecontradictions that are placed
on women, and that's part of it.
Yeah, you know, like theuntouchable holiest mother, that
we also don't give any rightsor respect to.
Joanna (18:57):
Like, since the paradox is like mind numbing.
Sara Kaye (19:00):
It's crazy, it's mind numbing.
Joanna (19:02):
It's crazy.
I learned about a guy in thissection from Anonymous because I
was like, who is old, fatherTaylor.
Sara Kaye (19:10):
So I do know.
Right here it says the famousMethodist Bethel preacher in
Boston Tell me, yeah.
Joanna (19:14):
So he said he was famous , and when he was asked if he
thought anybody had since livedwho was as good as Jesus, he
said yes, millions of them.
I love that this is Methodistauthority, Because after talking
about birth, they were talkingabout, well, like, aren't there
people?
Weren't there people as good asJesus?
And so this minister was like,yeah, millions of them.
(19:36):
What are you talking about?
And I'm like, oh, that's great.
Why was he so popular?
So then I went down the rabbithole and I'm like I got to know
who this is.
So he lived 1793 to 1887.
So popular in Boston thatDickens even wrote about him.
And this makes me love him,because these are the best
priests, the best leaders, thebest teachers or people who have
(19:57):
been through a struggle.
He was a foster kid, age seven.
He ran away, became a sailor atage seven, shut up.
Sara Kaye (20:03):
Imagine this kid Foster, kid sailor turned priest
.
Joanna (20:08):
How did I miss this?
I know so biblical teachingswith a seaman's language, so it
just really brought everybody.
It was like, who is this guyNow interesting?
He was anti-slavery, impartialto people of color, but hated
abolitionists because theyattacked the church.
So he's a great guy but youknow, everybody has their
(20:31):
feelings little things becausehe loved his church, but very
dynamic teacher and had a greatfollowing and he was like, yeah,
there's lots of great people.
Yeah, you might be Jesus.
You know there's a millionpeople that you can be.
You know, learn from and beinspired by my note here.
Sara Kaye (20:49):
at the end of the thing was like dang.
This is all about how Jesus wasjust a dude.
Yeah, I mean she does say.
Joanna (20:55):
Super great dude.
Yeah Like yeah.
I mean she does say Super greatdude.
Sara Kaye (20:56):
Yeah, like what made Jesus the power he was of his
time.
And she talks about hisinexplicable charm he had an
intellectual power of speech.
Wait, this is reallyinteresting too.
So most of the sayings of Jesusare not original in the sense
that nobody else ever utteredany similar truth before.
Confucius, 6,000 years beforeJesus, gave utterance to the
(21:17):
golden rule.
And then she said that he justhad a lot of sympathy and
tenderness to him.
He was a great personality.
Joanna (21:25):
And he was a good person , so people flapped to him
because he was nice.
Sara Kaye (21:30):
Yeah, the inexplicable charm about his
personality which drew all thecommon people to him, as iron
fillings are drawn to a magnet.
Joanna (21:39):
Yeah, because people are .
You meet people like that.
I mean good people and badpeople, but he yeah, he uses
charisma for good.
Sara Kaye (21:46):
For good, she closes with this gorgeous paragraph,
can I love?
This Can I read this.
You can love read it Can.
Joanna (21:53):
I love read it Because I was like I had to write I love
this.
I finished it and it was like Igot mad.
I was like I had to write Ilove this.
I finished it and I was likeanonymous.
I got mad.
I was like anonymous.
Why can't I know who wrote this?
I mean, she probably signed anote.
Non-disclosure, okay.
When it is dark in the morningand before the sun rises, there
are high peaks that catch thefar off rays and begin to glow
(22:16):
while the rest of the worldstill lies in the shadow.
So there are mountainous men,not supernatural but as natural
as the mountains and the sun.
Mountainous men who catch thelight before our common eyes, on
the plains and in the valleyscan see it, who see and proclaim
(22:38):
from their lofty heightsfar-off visions of truth and
beauty that we as yet cannotdiscern.
Sara Kaye (22:48):
Jesus Anonymous.
Joanna (22:50):
Yeah, like ooh the metaphors, I know.
Oh my gosh, it's gorgeous, thepicture I see, and that's the
Jesus, I know, that's the Jesus.
I know that's the Jesus thatAnne Rice writes about.
Sara Kaye (23:02):
Is it truly?
I know we brought that up lastweek.
I'm like I need to look that up.
I can't believe that book nevertook off.
Joanna (23:07):
It's so great.
Sara Kaye (23:08):
There was two.
Joanna (23:08):
I think, I can?
This is a touchy subject.
Sara Kaye (23:11):
It is, and Anne Rice wrote about vampires and then
Jesus, you're like, well, well,you know, makes sense.
Eternal life, like why is thatsuch a stretch?
Right, think about it, people.
So I really like that intro tothe new testament, because it's
not that they're like this isall bs.
They're like, you know, twomajor points.
The immaculate conception comeon now.
(23:33):
Come on now.
And jesus, being like asupernatural divine, like son of
God, is like, come on now.
Joanna (23:40):
Yeah, these are the two things that we need to remedy.
We need to bring it back, bringit back, bring it back to the
man.
Sara Kaye (23:48):
So we have Bring it back.
Bring it back.
Look at the mountains.
Look at the mountains.
Listen to the.
Anytime you have questions,just read that great paragraph
from Anonymous Right back into Ishouldn't say right back into.
So we're getting into the bookof Matthew, which extends that
idea of like Jesus was just likea gifted you know man,
(24:11):
charismatic, caring, yeah,magnetic, I mean he could be a
prophet.
But just this idea, well, likeI think, magnetic personalities.
Joanna (24:23):
I've always thought of MLK as a prophet.
Sure like yeah.
I mean what is a prophet?
You know?
Sara Kaye (24:30):
What is a prophet?
Joanna (24:31):
anyways.
A prophet is someone who evokesin you a feeling that you need
to be better a feeling that youneed to be better, elizabeth.
Sara Kaye (24:38):
In this response there's just a couple like
Matthew 1, 16 and 17,.
But this is talking about thelineage of Mary and Jesus.
So she says like if, as thescriptures claim, he descended
from heaven, begotten by theHoly Ghost, the incarnation of
God himself, then there wasnothing remarkable in his career
nor miraculous in the seemingwonders which he performed,
(24:58):
being the soul and the center ofall the forces of the universe,
of matter and mind.
Because she's like, why arethey writing about him turning
water into wine?
Like that's like, yeah, becausehe's God.
So she's saying that.
And then she's saying like ifhe was an ideal character, like
the gifted hero of some novel ortragedy, his great deeds and
(25:20):
his wise sayings the result ofthe imagination of some skillful
artist, then we may admire thesketch as a beautiful picture,
(25:40):
worthy example for imitation.
He is deserving of our love andreverence and, by showing us
the possibilities of humannature, he is a constant
inspiration, our hope andsalvation, for the path, however
rough, in which one man haswalked, others may follow yeah,
so why did they have to make itall wackadoodle?
Joanna (25:55):
that's what I mean, like I.
Sara Kaye (25:56):
Well, they have to make it super like again that
supernatural thing, thisunobtainable, it has to be
spectacular for you to careabout it.
Joanna (26:04):
Not you.
The sun on the mountains is notspectacular, is it not?
Have you ever watched?
Sara Kaye (26:09):
that.
But this is the thing, allstories.
It's kind of just like why wedon't go to movies to see just
about like a normal day in thelife.
Right, for a story to beinteresting and grab an audience
, it has to have some likerazzmatazz these books did.
The problem lies in peopletaking it literally, literally.
Yeah, that's the problem, likeelizabeth is trying to say.
(26:32):
But if we look at him like he'sa interesting man, you worthy
example for imitation.
Joanna (26:39):
Now we're talking and you should want to be like him,
because he accepted everyone.
Sara Kaye (26:46):
She also kind of mentions he was kind of like a
stud muffin.
Joanna (26:50):
I know, isn't that funny .
Sara Kaye (26:51):
Yeah, she goes.
It's great physical beauty, Iknow.
Joanna (26:55):
I'm like, yeah, I've seen him.
She didn't see.
I thought that was funny thatthey put that in there too.
I mean, I'm sure he was Goodlooking.
People do draw people in, it'strue.
Sara Kaye (27:05):
But they said that some writers think his mother
was a wise, great and beautifulJewish maiden.
His father a learned rabbi whodevoted much time and thought to
his son's education and, if youthink about it, not a lot of
people were educatedtraditionally about that.
Joanna (27:19):
He went to the temples and sat with them as a young
child, so that makes sense.
But, yeah, but because he wasso outspoken against all the
greed and everything, it madehim a marked man and people
wanted him dead, which we know.
So, for the reasons that weshould adore him, they were the
(27:40):
reasons he was hated, reviled,persecuted and it's sad.
Sara Kaye (27:45):
It's a sad story.
He commands far more love andreverence as a true man with
only human possibilities than asa God superior to all human
frailties and temptations.
I agree.
Joanna (27:56):
I agree with this writing.
All human frailties andtemptations, I agree.
I agree with this writing.
Sara Kaye (27:59):
So tell me what else you found out about or what you
liked in this the comments onMatthew.
Joanna (28:08):
Well, mr Matthew was basically telling the story.
He's basically the, he's theguy that really gives the
lineage of my man, jesus.
But they talk about the birth,the story that we know.
You know, they saw the star,they followed the star and they
guided him to the house wherethis young child was.
And, of course, the king atthat time was like another king.
(28:29):
I gotta kill that guy.
Sara Kaye (28:30):
He's like?
I don't think so.
And this is where we talk aboutthe Magi's who came from Arabia
to give him.
You know, three wise men.
They Moravia to give him.
Joanna (28:36):
You know three wise men.
They saw him as a baby, theyknew right away he was something
special, yep, and they didn'tturn him in.
And this is where King Herodtakes his place in the story.
Sara Kaye (28:48):
I know and I had to pause because I always knew, we
always heard that, like thethree magi, or you know the magi
, so they call them magians.
Did you know what that says?
Joanna (28:58):
No, well, I think I read it.
I mean, we kind of get it,they're from a certain area.
Sara Kaye (29:07):
Yeah, they're from.
You know.
They're the followers of theancient Persian religion of
Zoroastrianism Zoroastrianism orits precursor often associated
with priests and religiouspractices involving astrology
and fire worship.
Joanna (29:18):
Okay.
It's kind of like an ancientpersian, so this makes sense.
They saw a meteor.
Yeah, they followed.
It ended up.
What if jesus is just a dude?
Sara Kaye (29:28):
he's just a dude that was under a cool star.
He was like hey, it was themeteor showers, we were over
here just discovered somethingon our own I know I oh my gosh.
I know they were astrologersyeah.
Joanna (29:42):
I mean they were involved.
Sara Kaye (29:43):
You know they involved astrology.
See, this is what I'm like.
Astrology is one of the oldesttraditions of kind of
understanding when we are Ourplace in space.
Yeah and yeah where we are, ourplace in space.
Joanna (30:03):
yeah, so it was the uh major religion ancient persia
and it was a dualistic worldviewof good and evil isn't that,
which I think that is the onething I can get behind, because
that is literally what I'mwatching happening.
Sara Kaye (30:13):
I know well this.
This is like a monotheistic, soI don't know if you really want
to get into this though butthey were but so they were um a
priestly class associated.
The Magi's were.
So I just thought that was kindof neat.
That is neat, but that makessense with their star and
everything.
Joanna (30:26):
I love that they followed the star, found Jesus,
gave him gifts Yep and pissedoff the king because they were
like this baby's special.
So the king wants to kill theJesus baby?
Yeah, of course, little babyJesus.
And this really pissed off theking.
And then, apparently, the womanthat's talked about in this
(30:52):
section with Herod is niece toboth of her husbands.
So, king Herod, she was marriedto someone else and then he
went off to another country.
She was married to someone elseand then he went off to another
country and the girl Herodesis,she had a baby with the first
guy he left.
There was a new guy and she waslike hey also.
Hey, uncle, do you want tomarry me now, because you know
(31:15):
my other uncle left and I onlyhave this baby?
No, it doesn't really say itthat way, but that's exactly
what happened.
And John the Baptist stepped inand said hey, that's against
the law and that's really wrongthat you're doing that.
Sara Kaye (31:30):
And that really ticked her off.
Joanna (31:31):
That's right Well this is one interpretation of the
story Ticked her off and shedirected well, then her daughter
comes in dance and harrod'slike oh, I like your dancing,
I'll give you whatever you want.
Also very creepy, very petty,um, pedoey, um, she's like I'll
give you whatever you want.
(31:52):
And her mom is like girl, youbetter ask for john the
baptist's head.
And so she does.
I mean she could ask foranything.
Instead she takes she's likeall right, mom, get John's head,
because he said that you're ahoe bag, not I mean.
Essentially that's what it is intoday's terms.
And so LCS says it must havebeen a great trial to the
(32:18):
daughter, who might have askedfor so many beautiful gifts and
rare indulgences to yield to herwicked mother's revenge.
But these deeds were speedilyavenged.
It is said that Salome thedaughter, had her head cut off
by the ice breaking as shepassed over it.
Herod was shortly after engagedin a disastrous war on account
(32:40):
of the same lady and wasexpelled from his territories,
and both died in exile, hated byeverybody and hating one
another.
It's horrible.
There you go, major karma.
But that story is then refuted.
This EBD says, which is currentamong the theological scandal
mongers there is not amoderately intelligent jury of
(33:03):
Christendom if composed halfwomen, half men, which, after
examining all the availableevidence, would not render, and
disgrace for the head of Johnthe Baptist is an assertion born
wholly of the ecclesiasticaldistorted imagination.
(33:24):
Not even a hint, much less aniota, of proof to warrant such
an assertion is found anywherein history, sacred or profane.
And then she says, christiancenturies did put into
circulation the charge that Johnthe Baptist was put to death at
the instigation of Herodias,the girl that had two husbands,
without implicating herdaughter's character, however,
(33:47):
but but Josephus, on the otherhand, contrarily, explicitly
declares that his death waswholly a political matter, but I
will tell you this about ourawesome EBD.
If you'll recall.
Sara Kaye (34:06):
This is kind of who the book is dedicated to because
she was a contributor thatpassed away, kind of who the
book is dedicated to because shewas a contributor that passed
away.
She died in Boston on November25th 1895, at the age of 48.
And so she was alive for thefirst part of the Women's Bible,
but the second part, whichthere I think are five different
(34:28):
parts where she contributes shewas passed away early.
Joanna (34:30):
Oh, my gosh 48.
That's so young.
Sara Kaye (34:32):
But she is a rad lady , another one, and so she was a
suffragist and author who wasactive in the movements and
organizations in Kentucky andMassachusetts.
She married a Dietrich dude inBaltimore and they moved to
Covington, kentucky.
But she establishedorganizations to aid women an
educational industrial union, aday nursery, a cooperative
(34:53):
bakery and cooking school and ahome for elderly women.
Joanna (34:57):
Oh, my gosh who has the time?
She's younger than me.
I've done nothing.
I've done nothing.
Sara Kaye (35:00):
We've done nothing with our lives Like you don't
have.
She campaigned for civic reformin areas such as jail
conditions, oh, and citygovernment, and this little bio
says, like it was said of her,that she quote unquote ran the
town.
Isn't that awesome?
Yeah, she played a large partin this woman's Bible.
You know how it came to be.
(35:21):
So it's just really.
She's a really cool lady.
She lectured on equal rightsand wrote for various
publications, including theWomen's Journal.
But she wrote a book in 1889,the Families of John and Jake,
and it's a treatise on therelations between labor and
capital following two families,one prosperous and the other
poor.
I need to get my hands on that.
Joanna (35:42):
Oh, you do.
Sara Kaye (35:43):
Yes.
Joanna (35:44):
Oh my gosh, that's so needed right now.
Sara Kaye (35:47):
I know I'm like I want to read a labor and capital
book by a lady writer, Right,isn't that neat.
And then she wrote another bookabout women in the early
Christian ministry, a Refutationof Christian Teachings that
Relegated Women to Second ClassStatus in the World.
So this is I think this is thethird contributor that has a
separate text about this verytopic.
(36:07):
So I mean, these ladies werejust totally smart and awesome.
And then she just wrote acouple books and set up, you
know, pantries and schools andnurseries and baking and a
cooperative bakery.
What I've done?
Nothing.
I know what are we doing.
Joanna (36:26):
We got to get off the social media and start planting
potatoes.
Yeah, exactly, I don't know.
Sara Kaye (36:32):
I mean, what the heck ?
And she's a great writer.
Now I did notice and I know wecan, only we'll go through a few
of these things.
I was a little worried aboutthis part in the New Testament
because the second part of theWomen's Bible.
I was like they're a littleless sassy because they do have
a lot more paragraphs that arekind of historical summaries
right or story summaries.
Joanna (36:53):
So but this is what I want to read, what she said
about josephus, because that'swhat made me look him up she
said um well, they were tryingto figure out like was the lady
a really bad chick for takingjohn's head, and just because
she couldn't have her cake andeat it too?
Now the jury must remember thatJosephus was born in Jerusalem
(37:15):
about 38 AD, that he was aneducated man and in a position
to know the facts in this caseowing both to his prominent
position among the Jews and tohis study of contemporaneous
history, but that, on the otherhand, the anonymous writers who
bring Herodias' name into thetransaction are not traceable
(37:38):
further back than the 4thcentury of our era.
Oh wait, that's how I have itwrong.
That's 301 CE 400 CE, sorry.
Josephus was 38 AD, very closeto the you know common era of
Jesus, just 38 years after, andthat they do not, and that even
(38:03):
they do not bring any chargeagainst her character as a
mother.
They delivered the head.
Sara Kaye (38:08):
That was another story.
As a kid I remember the Jackson.
Baptist.
They left out the background ofthat.
Now that I'm hearing Yetanother Bible story where I'm
like well, you didn't tell meabout the creep behind all that.
Joanna (38:19):
Yeah, okay, creepy, okay , I did want to say so they're
talking about, you know, firstof all, mary is, you know, a
virgin, kind of weird Jesus,probably just a normal man, but
did some great things for people.
And you hear about the miraclesthat are, like you know,
bringing people to life, andthat's what he's famous for,
(38:41):
right, that's why people wentand followed him.
According to the Bible that Iread, the writer here says we
might doubt the truth of allthese miracles.
Did we not see so manywonderful things in our own day
which we would have pronouncedimpossible years ago?
The fact of human powerdeveloping in so many remarkable
waves proves that Jesus's giftof performing miracles is
(39:03):
attainable by those who, likehim, live pure lives and whose
blood flows in the higher arcsof the brain.
If one man, at any period ofthe world's history, performed
miracles, others equally giftedmay do the same.
And I said let's do it, andthat's where we save the world.
Sara Kaye (39:26):
Yeah, and I wrote my little note says ooh, these
Victorian ladies are really likeanyone can be Jesus.
That's why you listen to thispodcast.
For that kind of expert, thatis like expert, so get on it and
start miracling.
They really only picked just afew passages from Matthew, and
(39:51):
so chapter two in Matthew isthis is this story, and already
I was like what the?
So it's about the kingdom ofheaven be like in 10 virgins and
it's something they're at somelike wedding oh, who's ever
getting married?
Joanna (40:06):
this parable, is it a parable?
Sara Kaye (40:07):
it's a parable about a wedding and there's 10 virgins
.
Again, I Again.
Joanna (40:11):
I'm like one bridegroom, yeah, ten virgins, fight it out
.
Sara Kaye (40:16):
I mean again.
And in fact the response tothis I'm like how come the
ladies aren't even mentioning,like why does one guy get ten
women again?
Joanna (40:25):
But there's a— 1895.
They're like well, you know.
Sara Kaye (40:29):
So, but it is a parable about the bridegroom.
And so he has 10 virgins.
Five of them had, like, filledtheir lamps with lamp oil.
Five of them didn't.
They weren't prepared.
They weren't prepared, butapparently it's a metaphor about
keeping your own light lit.
Yeah, that's what the lady saidI couldn't get past the 10
(40:51):
virgins, so you go ahead.
Oh, that's what the lady said Icouldn't get past the ten
virgins.
Joanna (40:54):
So you go ahead.
Oh my god, this actually.
Sara Kaye (40:57):
I was like this is great, because there's two
interpretations.
Joanna (40:59):
There's like the male interpretation, which is you
know, well, you know thoseladies, you know they didn't get
the guy because they weren'tprepared.
These ladies are like yeah,you're missing the point, Dummy.
Exactly, let me tell you whatthis parable, because this is a
great parable and it means thatwe ladies need to stop relying
(41:21):
on these yahoos and get ourasses into the government and
change the freaking laws.
That's what they were saying,Unquote.
That's the parable.
That's exactly.
That's the parable.
That's the parable.
That's the parable.
That's the parable.
We can take care of ourselvesand light our own damn lamps.
Sara Kaye (41:39):
I love this.
I'll tell you about my hostbody.
I know I love and I love thisterm, so she writes the idea of
being a help me to somebody else.
I was like help me, that's likean old school meat cue, right.
What is this?
The idea of being a help meatto somebody else has been so
(42:01):
sedulously drilled into mostwomen that an individual life,
aim, purpose and ambition arenever taken into consideration.
They oftentimes do so much inother directions that they
neglect the most vital duties tothemselves.
Fill that lamp with oil, comeon, yeah, and that's what Help
meet I love that I was likethat's fantastic.
Joanna (42:26):
I know I'm done being your help.
Meet Help meet.
Sara Kaye (42:30):
So the last part, and this is ECS right.
Joanna (42:34):
This I see it doesn't say there.
I think so, though.
Sara Kaye (42:37):
ECS.
Ecs is dropping knowledge.
Joanna (42:39):
Oh yeah, yeah, she does the whole end.
Sara Kaye (42:41):
So that's what Elizabeth writes about her
interpretation of that parable.
I was like, yeah, that's muchbetter than like if you don't do
this, you won't get a boyfriend.
So women's devotion to thecomfort, the education, the
success of men in general intotheir plans and projects is in
great measure due to herself-abnegation and
self-sacrifice, having been solong and so sweetly lauded by
(43:05):
poets, philosophers and priestsas the acme of human goodness
and glory, and so is this thepart.
I don't want to step on yourthing, but now, to my mind,
there's nothing commendable inthe action of young women who go
about begging funds to educateyoung men for the ministry,
while they and the majority oftheir sex are too poor to
educate themselves and, if able,are still denied admittance
(43:27):
into some of the leadinginstitutions and learning
throughout our land.
Joanna (43:31):
Yeah, that's why we got the women's rights.
Sara Kaye (43:33):
I know it is not commendable for women to get up
fairs and donation parties forchurches in which the gifted of
their sex may neither pray,preach, share in the offices and
honors nor have a voice in thebusiness affairs, creeds and
discipline, and from whosealtars come forth biblical
interpretations in favor ofwomen's subjection.
(43:54):
Elizabeth I mean she, you knowwhat.
You think you can run out ofways to tell people to fuck off.
Joanna (44:02):
But yet here's proof.
Like I was like yeah, I'm goingwith you Again.
Sara Kaye (44:09):
Actually she's not telling people to F up, she's
just kind of like ladies, wakeup, You're doing that much
fundraising and all this stuffand you don't even get to go to
the damn school, right?
Joanna (44:22):
Are you kidding me, right?
What are you doing?
Right, light your own damn lamp, get your lamp full.
So yeah, in their ignorance,women sacrifice themselves to
educate the men of theirhouseholds and go to make
themselves ladders by whichtheir husbands brothers, sons
(44:42):
climb up into the kingdom ofknowledge, while they themselves
are shut out from allintellectual companionship, even
with those they love best.
Sara Kaye (44:53):
Such are indeed, like the foolish virgins, those five
without oil, right, unlike thesmart virgins.
I know that this is what you'retalking about when you're
talking about virgins.
Joanna (45:03):
You're like wait, why are they just like the virgins?
Can we talk about the virgins,ladies?
Sara Kaye (45:09):
Can we talk about why , again, we have polygamy?
Can we talk about the virginsladies?
Can we talk about why, again,we have polygamy?
Can we talk about that?
Joanna (45:15):
It's funny because they never talk about that and I
think it's hilarious.
I know, I know, don't be afoolish virgin, be a smart
virgin.
Sara Kaye (45:23):
But I can't tell you the rest.
I mean this will turn into anaudio book.
Joanna (45:28):
She writes I was like oh , this is her feeling.
Sara Kaye (45:31):
Yep.
Joanna (45:34):
The to an audio book.
She writes this is I was like,oh, this is her feeling.
Yep, the solitude of ignorance.
Oh, who can measure its misery?
Sara Kaye (45:40):
she's so I know who can measure it elizabeth katie's
she is.
So I mean, this is almost whereI'm like you should buy the
book just to read this part,just this, because there really
is.
Joanna (45:51):
There's even more more about, like the ignorance and
degradation of the past.
As in grand procession, theyenter the temple of knowledge
and the door is no longer shutthis is when we take over.
This is, this is I'm tellingyou 1895, by 2025, women are
gonna just rule things.
Sara Kaye (46:12):
I yeah, she's like the door is no longer shut.
Joanna (46:15):
It's not shut.
We have the oil, let's ride.
Sara Kaye (46:22):
The lanterns are lit.
You know what I'm saying.
Joanna (46:26):
Yeah, I mean, that's the main thing.
I think she's like women, takeback your power.
Quit being a ladder when you'regetting nothing.
What are you getting bybuilding these churches?
What are you getting by makingall the cakes at the bake sale?
What, what is that doing foryou?
Sara Kaye (46:42):
yeah, so it feels great.
Feels great to be in the newtestament.
Don't you just feel like you'rein a super church?
I wish we had an electricguitar or something.
You know what I'm saying.
In our next episode we'll bediscussing the Victorian
feminist take on the books ofMark and Luke.
Can't wait.
Do you have any hot takes orinsights on the books in the New
(47:04):
Testament?
Reach out.
Our contact details are in theshow notes.
Don't?
Joanna (47:09):
forget a great way to resist fascism is to support
independent media.
So like, comment, subscribe andshare this podcast liberally,
like you put on sunblock.
Sara Kaye (47:19):
Thank you for listening and we hope to see you
next week.
You bring your ears, We'llbring the virgins and the lamp
oil.
Joanna (47:27):
I love it, keep it weird .
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!