#10 | How to Create Sustainable Staff Pipelines That Prevent Burnout - Black Belt Banter: Martial Arts Business Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
In this week's episode we'll discuss the topic
preventing instructor burnoutbefore it breaks your team how
martial arts school owners canbuild unbreakable staff culture.
Welcome to Black Belt Banterthe best podcast to help your
martial arts school increase inprofits and generate substantial
revenue.
I'm Jimmy Hong and my co-hostis Master Tony Chung.

(00:23):
We are joined by Master TonyCook, a powerhouse school owner
whose impact spans two martialarts worlds, with two major
Canadian cities With over 2,100active students.
He teaches both Taekwondo andJiu-Jitsu in Vancouver and
Toronto.
He currently serves as thepresident of the BC Taekwondo

(00:44):
Federation, guiding thedirection of an entire region's
martial arts community.
Welcome everyone, and what acoincidence both of your names
are Tony and both of you arevery skilled in staff training
and development.
Let's start with you, masterChung.
We've all been through it asmartial arts school owners.
We, as an an industry, arenotorious for burning out our

(01:08):
staff and instructors.
What is your advice to ourcommunity, master Chung?

Speaker 2 (01:14):
This is a tough one, but for me I think pain's the
best teacher.
But you also want to guidepeople towards pleasure, so
obviously you have to havetargets.
There has to be suitablestandards of living for pay you
have to have.
Every staff member has a uniquething that they like.
Some people like to be homemultiple nights for dinner with
their family.
Some people want to be able topick their kid up from school.

(01:37):
But the pain part is you have tohave a solid amount of
part-timers that are qualifiedto be full-timers behind your
full-time staff so that in theevent that a full-time staff
member wants to move on or ifyou need to fire someone, that
you have a good replacement.
So there's that kind ofpressure.
And then obviously behind yourpart-timers you have a lot of
standard leadership staff andthen behind them you have a lot

(01:59):
of black belts.
So once your bench strength isgood and you have that pipeline,
it's just like in sports Sportsall the way from the major
leagues it goes all the way downto rec sports, but there's this
heavy pipeline of people thatwant to move forward and that's,
in my opinion, the painpipeline, right.
So one person's goal is anotherperson's pain.
So when somebody gets what theywant, oftentimes somebody loses

(02:21):
what they had.
So that's all I know.
Oftentimes somebody loses whatthey had.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
So that's all I know.
That's definitely not the case,master Cook.
Just like what Master Chung issaying.
From my personal experience itwas so hard finding a number one
, number two instructor, but itwas even harder to find the
bench strength to replace themor bringing them up.
What?
How do school owners find thatbench strength for?

(02:55):
To replace that number?
Not replace that number one,number two, but to train and
develop that number one andnumber two.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Master Cook, develop that number one and number two,
master Cook, I think.
So, getting back to Master TonyChung's point about making sure
that all your staff know whatthey're doing, I think that's a
key point For me staff.
So we have this thing calledmat culture in our industry,
where you come onto the mat andyou bow, and the Taekwondo

(03:24):
Dojang is a sanctuary where youlearn about focus, respect and
discipline.
I think what we're talkingabout is staff culture, and so,
within our staff culture, Ithink it's very important for
highly successful clubs toreally balance the workload and
rotate responsibilities.
So I think Master Chung broughtup a great point there.

(03:46):
If you have one person, forexample, your head instructor,
that is teaching every singleclass, monday to Saturday, it
doesn't matter how great theyare, they're going to burn out.
So, to be able to rotate thoseresponsibilities and now to
answer your question, masterHong, in order to do that, you
have to create a pipeline.

(04:07):
So you have your seniorinstructors or your head
instructors, and then underneaththem you're going to have
assistant instructors, andunderneath them you'll have
junior instructors, and thenyour base is going to be your
leadership team or some sort ofteam that you're developing so
that they can one day becomeyour future staff, so I think

(04:30):
that's incredibly important forlong-term sustainability within
the dojang.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Well, master Chung, what do you say to the smaller
school owners who can't have abig staff and big payroll?
Do you pay the assistant andpart-time instructors, or are
they just in leadership trainingwithout pay?
How does that work, master Chad?

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Well, yeah, I never had the war chest of money to
pay people.
So once you create a game plan,it's kind of like a point of no
return.
So you need to get a group ofpeople together.
I think the story was likeCortez.
I don't know if it's a badstory, but I just heard the part
where when they landed with theships, they burnt the ships and
they're like what are you doing, sir?
And they're like he goes.
I don't know, but we just can't.

(05:14):
We can't go back.
So I think that you want a groupof people, even if it's like
when you watch a movie and youhave that ragtag gang of people
where they're not reallytalented but they're family and
they're friends and they'refriends like family, and the
goal is like the mission is moreright, the mission is forward
and as long as you have a goodcore group, that they have each

(05:36):
other's back and the money, evenif you have the money, for
example, you can't just paypeople and assume they're going
to do great work Sometimes.
Sometimes volunteers are goingto be the best staff that you'll
ever have and they're not evenpaid.
Sometimes the most expensivepeople you ever have is free, is
free help.

(05:56):
So it just it's reallydependent on results.
So, after after having nowafter 20, some plus years, I've
had probably hundreds of staffpart-time and full-time and
dozens of full-timers over theyears my average full-timer now
has been with me for over 10,since I've been in Georgia for

(06:17):
about 14 years.
But the only thing I could sayis the only way you know is
results right.
So I believe in giving people afair wage, but then you have to
give them opportunity.
And the only way you knowthey're good is not assumptions,
it's not wordplay, becauseyou'll interview somebody and
they talk a great game andyou're like, dude, this guy's

(06:38):
going to be a rock star.
Or you're like she's so shythere's no way that she could
talk to anyone.
And the only way you know isyou put them in the batter's box
and you see the results.
And not the first or second orthe third time I've had so many
staff members.
They're like sir, I'm notcomfortable teaching class, sir,
I'm not comfortable selling,I'm not comfortable doing this,
but I'm like listen, just teach10, 20, 30 classes and then

(07:00):
let's see how it goes.
I classes and then let's seehow it goes.
I'm willing to lose tons ofmoney.
I'm willing to lose studentseven.
Just do your best, sharing yourstory on the mat or in the
office or in between, and let'sjust see how it goes.
And then, once you kind of setthat tone, the results will
speak for themselves.
I do believe that selling is nota full-time job in martial arts

(07:21):
, nor is marketing, so you'regoing to need to, I believe,
starting them, like Master Cooksays, you want, you want the
culture of a martial artist andyou want somebody that believes
in what they do.
That was, that's willing to doit for free.
They would.
They would do this for free Ifthey won the lottery, they would
still teach.
And then those people, if youcould find a fair way to
compensate them.
That's how you build something,something great, and that's how

(07:43):
you build something great.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
Well, talking about free, I know all of us here has
heard hey, sometimes free helpis not the best help.
You don't want free helpBecause with free help, with
volunteers, they're justdifferent than your payroll

(08:04):
staff.
What do you say to that, masterCook?
Is that true, especiallynowadays, or is that kind of
obsolete?

Speaker 3 (08:15):
and it's about how you lead your team and your
school Well.
So I want to start by sayingthat when we talk to first-time
school owners, or perhapssomeone who's been in the
industry for a long time andthey're not quite where they
want to be, that that's awonderful question to begin with
.
What we say begin with the endin mind.

(08:36):
So if we were to say to someonewhat is your ideal situation?
Where do you see yourself infive years and 10 years for your
club?
And perhaps they say I wouldlove to have the autonomy to
come in and out of the dojangwhen I want.
I would love to have to teachthe classes when I want.

(08:56):
In a perfect world, I wouldhave 300 students, or 500
students, with a full-timemanager, a full-time head
instructor and maybe three orfour-time part-time instructors
and then a wonderful leadershipteam.
So first they have to have thecourage and the creativity to
answer that question, and sothat's your end goal.

(09:17):
And now we say, okay, that'swonderful.
So now let's start to fill eachof those roles.
So, for example, your headinstructor isn't just one day
going to walk into your gym andsay I would love to be the head
instructor of your school andyou don't have to pay me
anything now, but when you can,you will.
And same thing with yourprogram director.
And so, in order to startfilling in these roles, you now

(09:41):
have to start identifying andtrain these people to get to the
position you want them to be in.
And we don't call it free help,we don't call it volunteering,
we call it an apprenticeship.
So, for example, our leadershipclass they come to our
leadership training once a week,on a Friday or a Saturday, and
that's what we call thetheoretical training.

(10:01):
Now they have to use thattheoretical training that
they're learning in theirpracticum, and that's what we
call it.
It's your practicum.
You're not volunteering, you'recoming in and you're using your
theoretical training aspracticum.
So you come once a week ortwice a week.
What have you and what you'redoing is you're training to

(10:22):
become a better leader level one, level two, level three.
What have you?
So, I guess, in terms ofdollars and cents, yes, you're
not paying anything.
So it might be free, like youwant to say the word free but
when in fact, you're actuallytraining them.
You're training them to becomebetter leaders, better leaders

(10:44):
in the community, better leadersin your dojang, and they're
becoming wonderful role modelsand mentors to your students and
it's a win-win situation.
And then they one day canbecome your part-time staff and
many of my instructors have onetime been a leadership team
member with me a really shy kidand that's how you work and you

(11:04):
start filling in those roleslittle bit by little bit and
once you get that ball rollingas Master Tony Chung and
yourself, master Ong, know itbecomes addictive.
When you start seeing greatresults, little results, that
grind becomes addictive and youbecome hyper-focused on now
developing more staff and moreleaders and more future staff

(11:26):
for your dojang.
So I think that's the way to gois maybe change that mindset
from free help to you'retraining them to become leaders
in your school.
That's the way we've been doingit.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
That's brilliant, Master Cook.
That's brilliant Master Cho.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
You know, I, when I hear him talk, he's just so
awesome, I would, I would wantto work.
It's the mindset first of all,master tony cook is like is my
young?
So I'm like, oh, he's my bigbrother, and we have this event
called the sauce.
We kind of get together andthere's always these older
people and then now I'm one ofthe old I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
I'm sorry, but by the way, master chung, you know
master tony cook, he's, he's oneof our speakers for us summit
this year.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
So it's gonna be, it's gonna be awesome, but he's
great, like you know I've seenhim attend seminars and you have
five schools right young likeyes, sir, yeah so I'm opening my
fifth currently and it's likeand you've been doing it for a
very long time, but but his fiveare not the same as my five.
He's way more successful.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Also Master Chung, also your fives altogether.
His schools are from one end ofCanada to the other.
I know you have to takeairplanes right, it's like crazy
.
Right, You're, you're, you'retalking about Toronto and
Vancouver which is on the.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
it's talking about East coast and West coast, and
then one one of your locationswould recommend that it's
usually multi-school.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
One of your schools is totally different style.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
But having said that, what I'm saying is so I've
watched him over the years.
At Assam He'll he'll go tomeetings and take notes, which
is a servant leader, which iscrazy.
When I was getting nervous I'mlike, oh my gosh, I'm going to
say something stupid.
I definitely got to saysomething stupid.
But he writes notes and then hedebriefs his entire staff,

(13:13):
right when we finish a saw, wetake pictures and we're like, oh
my gosh, thank goodness it'sover, it's awesome, let's go eat
and have some fun and relax Hisgroup.
They all sit down on a table.
We have a, a couple tablestogether, a couple dozen of them
, and they're debriefing andthey listen and it's like holy
smokes, it's impressive and theygenuinely they.

(13:35):
You know like I work in film alittle bit, so there's I'm
around actors and sometimesthey're like there's the real
person and then there's theircharacter on screen, right.
So at Asah, when we finishedthe final picture, and Asah,
we're done, everybody's pullingtheir ties off or relaxing, and
because the seminar's over theweekend's over his group is the
exact same as they've been thewhole time.

(13:55):
They're taking notes andthey're talking about different
things and I was like man,they're just.
Those are the kinds of peoplethat I want teaching my kids.
So part of me wishes that Ilived closer to his schools,
because I take my kids to hisdojang, you know, because those
staff members, not just him, buthis staff members, the culture
that he has.

(14:16):
they're really good people and Ithink that's the magic sauce is
how do you, as you replicatedojangs, as you replicate
students and staff, how can youtake what you experienced with
Master Tony Cook?
It's embodied in a staff andthe only way you could do that
is there's no faking it.

(14:38):
You know what I mean.
People know.
When you go work for a largercompany, there's a corporate
culture and some companies areknown that you work hard.
I would assume that Master TonyCook Schools his culture.
There's an expectation ofprofessionalism and when they go
they go to win.
But when they go they go tolearn.
And I don't know, because Ialways take some of my staff and

(15:02):
I say look look at that group.
That's how we should be.
We want to learn.
You got to make it your own,but I will tell you that it's
not as easy as it's not as easyas just emulating.
I think the secret sauce is,whatever the mission that he has
set forth in his organization,it's embodied with his staff and

(15:22):
I'd be interested to hear abouthow you program that, how you
live that, how you encouragethat and foster it.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, that was.
My question is I had a hardtime managing schools that are
close together.
How do you run a staff whenthey're a country apart?

Speaker 3 (15:43):
I'm zones apart, yeah , yeah first of all, thank you
very much, master Tony Chung.
I mean both yourself and MasterHong.
You know both of yourreputations precede you and to
hear nice words coming from you,gentlemen, actually mean a lot
Martial artists, and we lovewhat we do.

(16:08):
But when we're running abusiness, a Taekwondo business,
it's imperative to understandthat the most successful
Taekwondo businesses aresuccessful because they use
systems.
They use simple, effectivesystems.
They have to be simple so thatanybody can use them, and they

(16:30):
have to be effective, whichmeans that they work.
And it's your team, your staff,that run these systems.
And we all know that nobodysucceeds alone.
You need a team to succeedalone.
And if it's you and one otherperson, that's your team.
If it's you and a 16-year-oldpart-time instructor, that's

(16:54):
your team.
If you're in a dojang and youhave 30 staff, that's your team.
Regardless on the size of yourteam, your highest priority is
for us as technicalprofessionals, is to cultivate
and nurture and develop thatteam so that we can deliver a

(17:15):
superior service to our students.
So the answer to the questionis continually build these
simple, effective systems thatare run by your staff.
And now, what are these systems?
They're very simple.
You have an enrollment system.
You've got to sign up studentsand you have a retention system.
You have to teach amazingclasses where they're learning
and growing, they love coming toclass In order to maintain

(17:38):
those two main systems.
You do that by creating anddeveloping your staff.
So that's one of the thingsthat I think I'll be talking
about at Assa, and it's it's,it's it could be.
The highest goal of everyTaekwondo dojang owner is how do
you continually develop yourstaff so that they can deliver

(17:59):
these simple systems to run yourdojang?

Speaker 1 (18:04):
it's, it is brilliant .
But go back to you, masterChung.
Do you, do you ever have tohire outside staff?
Because I know a lot of dojangowners.
They don't have that benchcoming in continually.
Oh, absolutely Sometimes theyhave to, absolutely.
What do you?
Your experience is good, bad.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
So like one of my headmasters now he came from
when I went to the AT&T store.
Every time I see, first of all,I grew up in an area where
there's no Koreans, right, andanytime I see Korean I think
there are some Kwanjangs.
I'm like hello, hello.
But now I'm in Georgia now.
So I'm like, oh, okay, they'rejust normal Koreans.
But when I first got to GeorgiaI saw some young Korean kids

(18:45):
are good, looking at the Koreanbarbecue place or the AT&T place
.
So to ask them and doljangs arenot actually in the Korean area
, but when I would go shop ordine I'd ask and then you
eventually meet somebody.
I met one of my head instructors, master Johnson.
He's incredible.
I met him through Costco.
I'm walking in Costco and thenthe guy looked at you and I know

(19:08):
he wants to talk to me aboutdirect TV or something.
And then the guy was you lookat him, and then he like and I'm
like, oh, this guy wants totalk to me.
And there was a couple of them.
So I'm like, okay, one of theseguys is the manager trainer,
and that was Richie, richie,master Johnson.
So when I was talking to himand then I was like hey, is it
true that at Costco you can'ttalk to me until I make eye
contact with you, but if I'm atSam's Club or BJ's Wholesale,

(19:32):
it's like the flea market or themall.
They're like you know meet up,meet up.
Hey, hey hey, you know whatever.
And he's like yeah, how did youknow that?
I said well, I read the CostcoConnection magazine and they
pride in the shopping experienceand I know that.
So I just started talking tohim.
He was so good, he was veryeloquent.
He asked me what I need.
He wasn't even talking aboutdirect TV, he was talking about
televisions and I was like man,I'd love to hire you, but too

(19:54):
bad, you're not a Blackbird.
He goes oh, I'm a third degreeBlackbird with the Leo to
Machida system.
I'm like, oh, no way.
I was like I would love toteach you.
He was making six figures.
There's no way I can hire him.
At the time of where my businesswas.
So I literally ate a hot dogonce a week for seven weeks and
I would see this guy every dayand he would rotate Costco's.
So I would go to differentCostco's to find this guy and

(20:17):
then eventually I said, yeah,let's have lunch.
And and then six months laterhe became.
He switched his life and itwasn't for money, because he had
to take a huge pay cut to comework with me.
A huge pay cut, less than half.
But I gave him targets andbasically he was really good
shape.
He showed me some pictures ofwhen he did some MMA fights and

(20:38):
then he gained 80, 90 pounds.
And then I was like, hey, youdon't have to work with me, let
me just train you.
I'll train you for free, I'llhelp you lose that 90 pounds.
I need to lose weight.
Let's lose weight together.
And then that's kind of how itstarted we just worked out and
then he kind of liked the vision.
And then he's like you knowwhat?
I think I want to do this, andnow he's his partner.
So that's kind of how it worksLike you need to meet people.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
He's still with you to this day.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Master Johnson is going to be running everything
he is.
You know, after some point ofsuccess, you need succession,
and I have several great mastersand master johnson is among
this group that are the.
I'm tripping over myself and Ihave the torch in my hand.
I'm crawling on my belly, Idon't know what I'm doing, I'm
going the wrong way, but theseguys will take that torch and
run it to the end it's amazingthat you did that with a couple

(21:29):
of hot dogs.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
I have a very similar story $1.50 hot dogs.
Yes, I have one of my headinstructors, one of my most
prized students, and now he's amulti-school owner, incredibly
successful.
His name is Master Milad.
He had started Taekwondo and hehad stopped for some reason.
And then I ran into him at thepizza store and I said Mlad, if

(21:53):
I buy you this slice of pizza,will you come back to Taekwondo?
And he said yes, sir.
He was kind of cute and pudgyat the time.
It was a $2 slice of pizza.
So he actually came back toTaekwondo, became a black belt,
became my head instructor,became a partner.
Now he has a multi-school.
It's probably the greatest $2 Iever spent.
It's a funny way of justillustrating the point that any

(22:17):
interaction can be a potentialfor something significant in the
future, and I always remind mystaff that is sometimes without
thought.
We say to Charlie or orStephanie, it's great to see you
.
Sometimes we forget theprofound positive effect that we
have on our students just bythat small, tiny interaction and

(22:40):
by Master Tony Chung implantingsomething more than just a
vision.
It was a purpose.
Costco is a wonderful company,but I think what you did with
your partner, master Chong, isyou planted a seed of purpose in
him where he really feelspassionate about what he's doing

(23:02):
and at the end of the day, whenhe goes to sleep, that he feels
really good about thecontributions he made to society
that day.
You know, I think that'sprobably one of the most blessed
things that we have asTaekwondo masters is that we get
to train, obviously, but we'remaking such profound positive
impacts in the lives of ourstudents and, in turn,

(23:23):
contributing to our community,and to be able to do that while
being able to make a living, Ithink is such a privilege.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
It's so interesting the way you guys talk because
regular school owners they don'thave that they would never.
You know, myself included, Iwould never have thought, oh hey
, this person.
But you're constantly thinkingof ways to improve and you have
your schools in mind when you'reconversing with your day-to-day
.
That's not involved in work,whether you're a Costco or a

(23:56):
pizza shop.
It's just the way that yourbrain functions is vastly
different than the majority ofus out there.
So fascinating, master TonyChung.
Go back to our originalquestion of preventing burnouts,
to our number one instructorsand number two instructors.
How do you because we have toput our number one instructors

(24:20):
on our beginning classes forthem to beginners classes, for
them to really buy into ourschools right, because they're
our customers.
They're not our students yetthey're not our students yet.
They're not our students untilthey become intermediate belts.
But then you don't want to takethem away from your advanced
classes either.

(24:41):
How are they not in every classin your school and how do you
prevent burnouts from doing that?

Speaker 2 (24:48):
I think that the key thing is you have to have a
sense of priority.
So your priority has to be ifyou really believe in something,
you need to try to create aperpetual system to run that.
And I think that a lot ofpeople, when I talk to school
owners, they'll be like I'mtrying to implement this Tigers
program and this and that, andit gets me tired.

(25:09):
Or I'm doing summer camp andand if you, if you're passionate
about summer camp, then youshould make the best summer camp
that you can.
If you're passionate aboutteaching Tigers, then you should
have an elite preschool program.
But what happens to a lot ofschool owners is that they
actually really want to do ABCand then they're working on XYZ

(25:29):
to get back to ABC and and it'sjust, it becomes a distraction.
You can only do so much workthere's.
You're limited by time, energyand money, and everybody thinks
it's it's your, it's your money.
That's the most importantfactor.
It's actually your energy ismore important than that.
And then your time is thehighest tax on your opportunity.
So I think that for most staff,you need to find out what their

(25:54):
goal is.
So, yes, everybody wants tomake more money.
That's a staff member.
But once you get to that, maybeit's a sense of freedom.
Okay, if you had freedom, whatwould you do?
They're like I would travel.
Okay, so it's actually morethan the money.
The travel is important to you,okay.

(26:19):
Now I don't know, there's oneparticular staff member that I
have that runs a location.
When I first met him, he lookedhorrible.
He looked horrible, okay, andhe was lost.
And I said hey, I think youshould actually work and do
martial arts.
And he was like I don't want todo that.
I was like okay, that's fine.
Do you like money?
And he goes yeah, I like money.

(26:40):
And I was like perfect, well,I'm going to hire you part-time
and I'm going to have youfocused on money.
So, instead of trying to sellmartial arts and then now he
teaches tiger class, he teachesregular class, he's training to
be tournament go to Costco, goto anywhere in between.
They're just looking at peopleand then only when somebody like

(27:15):
pops up in a uniform with ablack belt and says I'm looking
for a job, a career, I want tobe a partner, you talk and
interview that people.
I am constantly where people seemounds of dirt or rocks.
I'm like there's flakes of goldeverywhere here.
If I sift enough of this, if Isift enough of this shit, you
know what I mean, right, I, Iwill, literally I'm working, I

(27:38):
will walk around Best Buy andI'm just walking around.
I go around Costco, go aroundthe mall, go be at Disneyland or
wherever, and I'm alwayslooking.
And if you're there, it's outthere, it's out there.
And if you think that you'regoing to find a nugget of gold,
that would that might've been inthe seventies or the eighties,
maybe even the nineties, butnowadays you're going to have to

(28:01):
wash a lot of dirt to getflakes right, to create a system
.
Maybe they start as a student,maybe they come in as a part
timer, and then you're going tohave to smelt all those flakes
together and that's going tocompound into a bar of gold way
bigger than a nugget.
Because in my opinion, we arein the golden age of martial
arts, because people are lostand they need something to do,

(28:23):
they need to be, they need hoperight, and I think that's what
Master Cook does so well.
He has a great system 2,100active students, he has hundreds
of black belts, and then fromthat he has he has dozens and
legions of of leadership members.
And then obviously, thepipeline goes up all the way to
partnership.
I mean, could you imagine forsomeone like master Tony cook to

(28:48):
be able to be a partner withsomeone like him?
I mean, that's a golden ticket,that's the Willy Wonka golden
ticket of the martial artindustry, and he has a pipeline
for that.
That's amazing.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
Well, and you know it wasn't always that way.
I want to go back to my veryfirst school.
My very first school was on asmall island.
We had a population of 3,500people, believe it or not, and I
had to take a ferry to go thereand it was only open twice a
week.
It was on Tuesdays andThursdays.
So at the time I started with40 students, it grew to 100 and

(29:22):
then 150.
But this is how it starts.
It starts by planting seeds.
So to the dojang owner thatonly has 50 students, it could
be someone daunting.
Hearing about multi-schoolowners that have lots of staff
and a lot of help.
That's great, but it startswhen you have a small team.

(29:42):
So here's a blue belt or a redbelt shows a lot of potential.
He or she loves Taekwondo andyou pull them aside and you say
you know, I recognize the effortand the passion you put into
your practice.
Are you enjoying Taekwondo?
Yes, I love Taekwondo.
I think one day you would be aphenomenal leader.

(30:04):
I'm always looking for ways togrow our club so that we can
help as many people as possible.
I think you would be awonderful fit to help and be a
future leader of our academy.
You're just planting that seedand you have that conversation
with two, three, four people,and they don't have to be
teenagers.
We have doctors, we haveprofessors that help on our

(30:29):
leadership team because they'rehonored to be a part of the
culture, and so that's how youstart.
You start by planting thoseseeds and then, when you have a
small group of two, three, four,five people, you create that
leadership program.
You say, listen, I want to helpyou guys with how to lead a
proper warm-up and how to teachbasic movements, and how to
teach basic movements and how toteach punches and kicks.

(30:52):
But what you're actuallyteaching them is how to become a
leader.
You're teaching them publicspeaking.
You're teaching them to standin front of their peers and be a
positive role model.
That's incredibly empowering.
And to your point, master Hong,how do you prevent burnout?
When you look at the mostsuccessful restaurants in the
world, they have an executivechef, but they also have sous

(31:15):
chefs.
They have the right hand andleft hand people, and then they
have people under them, and sowhat you're doing is you're
creating staff within staff.
So if you have a headinstructor, empower your head
instructor, give them help.
If you have an assistantinstructor.
Empower your assistantinstructor.
Let them know that you'realways there to help them, but
empower them.

(31:36):
And I think one of the biggestthings for burnout and I've seen
it and I'm guilty of this iswhen we demand too much of our
staff without giving themautonomy.
So if we give our staffresponsibilities but then also
give them the autonomy to makedecisions, they feel empowered.

(31:59):
So I think the combination ofthose things will prevent
burnout long term for your staffbut at the same time, continue
to grow your company.
I love what Master Chung saidabout finding gold in a desert.
That's literally what you'redoing.
You're always looking forfuture staff, always, always.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Well, can I say something real quick?
I'm so sorry.
Sometimes some people will sayand I've heard people say things
like oh, you're in Atlanta,you're in a big city, or Master
Cook's in Canada.
They have very dense populationin metropolitan areas.
But look at the metrics.
A lot of school owners, whenthey go to an area, they go to

(32:43):
the stores, they drive around,they're like there's nice cars,
people have money here, there'sa lot of kids walking around on
a weekday, and they basicallyland on these numbers.
They find an area that has aqualified household income right
, and there's 50,000 accessiblepeople to a location.
They find the market is always2%.

(33:04):
So 2% of 50,000 is 1,000, right, and their goal is to capture
10% of that market.
So that's a hundred, right.
Well, maybe their, theirminimum goal, their minimum net,
is 10% of the market.
And then they try to get to two, three, four, 500, like he says
, but they usually end up around60.
Maybe they can get to a hundred, but master cook was in an area

(33:27):
of 3,500 people.
2% of that is 70, 70.
So he opened with 40 students.
He captured 57% of the actualmarket immediately and then he
scaled to 100 and then to 150,right.
At 150, he actually increasedthe market.

(33:47):
2% of people want to do martialarts.
There's only 70 people in thatarea of 3,500, but he got 150 of
them to train and that's whathappens when you do a massive
activation.
So he is very soft-spoken andhe's very eloquent and he is
very regal in his leadershipdevelopment.

(34:08):
But make no mistake, if he wasa fighter in the ring which he
was a massive fighter, but if hewas fighting in today's martial
arts arena for business, assoon as they say go, as soon as
his doors open up, as soon as hewalks onto the mat with his
belt, he's a badass.
He is out in 30 in a market of3,500 people.

(34:31):
That is 14.2 times smaller thana 50,000 market.
He was outperforming a normalschool by 50%.
So if you're in an area, ifyou're listening right now, and
you're teaching out of a daycare, out of a gymnasium, if you're
in a small town with 3,500,3,500 people is crazy small,
right Then what is it?

(34:53):
What is it that he is doingthat you're not doing?
What is it that his staff isdoing that that you're not doing
or your staff is not doing?
That's the key.
And here's the thing and this isimportant for us because we're
not doing this for us.
If we're doing something for us, we'd probably be golfing.
Because we're not doing thisfor us.
If we're doing something for us, we'd probably be golfing I'm
super lazy or training or doingsomething like that.
We're doing this to inspireeven just one of you that are

(35:17):
listening to this right that youare enough as you are.
You're missing nothing.
You just need to take what youhave, take the location that
you're in, take the place, themarket you're in, and make a
couple of tweaks, a couple ofswitches, a couple of dials and
whatever it is, understand.

(35:37):
This master cook has it and ifhe's willing to share it with
you, if you have a chance tomeet him, to talk to him, listen
and apply it right.
Apply it because you're notjust.
There's a lot of people outthere that are, that are, that
are talking about it.
He's doing it and it's amazing,you know.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Well, you do have.
Everybody does have a chance tomeet him, and you, that's right
.
That's right, yes, at at ASAsummit this October in Las Vegas
.
I'll we'll leave information,website information for that on
the that on the show links below.
But going back to you, masterTony Cook, I had a question
that's not really relevant tostaff training, but is is

(36:19):
teaching the staff the same asTaekwondo with Jiu-Jitsu?
How does you know?
Or is running a business fromCanada for US the same versus
the world?
Is there any difference?
That was always my thought,because I've never ran a
business outside of the US.
Is it just as the same?
Is it just in a differentlocation?

Speaker 3 (36:38):
Obviously, running a business in the US is like
running a business in Canada onsteroids, simply because you
guys have 10 times thepopulation, therefore, in some
ways, 5 to 10 times moreopportunity, even in Vancouver
and in Toronto, one of my mainschools here, our city is called

(37:00):
North Vancouver.
We have a population of 80,000people.
We have about 500 activemembers in that location here.
When we opened in North York,which is in Toronto, the city of
North York has 800,000 people,so it's 10 times the population,
and we were able to scale quitequickly simply because we had

(37:22):
the right systems in place, butwe also had a bigger market.
So I don't think the actualpractice, like the SOPs and the
KPIs, change.
It's just that in most citiesin the United States you have a
bigger population, therefore alot more growth potential.
I think that would be the onlydifference with USA and Canada.
Now, when it comes to Taekwondoand Jiu-Jitsu, I love Jiu-Jitsu,

(37:46):
I love boxing, I love MMA, butI will say this I think that, as
a business, taekwondo is headand shoulders above the rest
when it comes to teaching thelife skills that we profess to
teach through the platform ofpunching and kicking, and I

(38:06):
think a lot of it has to do withthe mat culture.
When students come onto the mat, they are trained to take off
their shoes, put on theiruniform, they show respect.
So we're teaching them thephysiology of respect, but we're
also teaching them the languageof respect by saying yes, sir,

(38:27):
yes, ma'am.
We are challenging them to userespect in and out of the
Taekwondo school, by asking themto respect their teachers and
their family and their friends,and so on the Taekwondo mat.
There are multiple ways that weare teaching these life skills.
I can't think of any othersport in the world that does it

(38:48):
in the manner that Taekwondodoes, and this is why Taekwondo
masters are so passionate aboutwhat we do, because we know that
what we do changes lives,period.
We all know as Taekwondoteachers that confidence is the
most beautiful thing that youcan wear and, as parents, the
greatest investment we can putis in our children.

(39:10):
Who wouldn't want to have a sonor a daughter that knows what
respect means and is fullyconfident in their abilities?
This is what taekwondo does.
So I think bruce lee said itthe best.
You know the.
The foundation of all martialarts is the same, just the
blossomings are a little bitdifferent.
So whether you're doing judo,karate, jujitsu or taekwondo, I

(39:34):
think it's all great.
We, just as martial artsteachers, taekwondo teachers, we
have to make sure that we areteaching these life skills in a
very direct way so that it'sbenefiting our students.
But there's a reason whyTaekwondo is the number one
practice martial art in theworld.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
And I'm so glad you said that, young, because you
know two things.
Number one earlier he said SOPsand KPIs.
Kpis so the fact that he has anembedded system with standard
operating procedures and keyperformance indicators.
I'm sure that, whether you havea software or not, knowing your
own numbers internally andmaking sure that your numbers,

(40:12):
you're not just looking at whatsomebody else is telling you,
your numbers are like youinspect what you expect, so
those are very importantindicators because, in effect,
mastercook is a Formula Onedriver and he has a team of
drivers and they're allsuccessful, and knowing those
numbers going from being therace car driver himself to

(40:33):
managing the team and looking atthe overall metrics and you
need to know when things aregoing well, when things are not
going well, and you need to beable to isolate what SOPs are
affecting those KPIs.
The second thing is I thoughtit was fascinating he has a
jujitsu school and then he hastaekwondo schools as well and

(40:54):
there's a lot of people, myselfincluded it's like I do get to
train in jujitsu and I'mfascinated with it.
I have some level of grapplingimplemented into our curriculum,
but I know that one of thefastest growing academies
segments in the martial artindustry in the United States
are jujitsu schools.
It's like they're opening up asfast as Korean restaurants,

(41:16):
korean barbecue places, and Ithink a lot of school owners are
like I love those, I love those.
Am I being outdated?
Do I need to do jujitsu?
Because a lot of school ownersare like I love those, I love
those.
Am I being outdated?
Do I need to do jujitsu?
Because a lot of school owners,they don't have the money, they
don't have the time, theresources, maybe their bodies
are not able to do thatnecessarily.
And if you want to practicejujitsu, I started because in

(41:37):
film I've rolled throughout mylife, but in film I got a chance
to start training in a groupand I just did it as a hobby and
as a passion.
I enjoy it.
But I think a lot of schoolowners are out there you know
they don't want to feel likethey're getting outdated, so
like, oh, I need to, I need togo to these poomsae seminars
where I need to, I need to learnjujitsu.
And then it's like holy cow,jujitsu is really difficult.

(42:05):
And then do I need to implementa jujitsu program into my
school?
And those are all very goodthings.
But in my opinion and I'd likeyou to hear what your thoughts
are on this, master Cook, if youhave a Taekwondo dojo and
you're financially struggling,there's no need to start
implementing new programs andnew instructors until your core
is set.
If you want that, aftercare isgoing to, if you want to be an
aftercare business, if you wantto be a jujitsu business, you're

(42:28):
welcome to do that.
But if, if, if, your ultimatelong-term goal is I want to
actually just run a TaekwondoDojang, there is a way and it is
a solid way.
And, like you said, mat culture, languages of respect, that
life skills education that youget.
It is a very valuable thing inNorth America, in in Canada, in

(42:48):
the United States, of course,and there's no reason to abandon
or to feel like you are leftbehind.
I think that there are certainthings in life that are about
innovation and if you don't, ifyou don't adapt, you'll get left
behind.
But I think that I think thatmartial arts, especially
Taekwondo, it's timeless.
It's it's timeless.
And yeah, you know it wasfascinating my recent stint in

(43:14):
film with Cobra Kai.
You know I'm like I did somekarate.
I competed a little bit, butI'm I'm a Taekwondoist.
But they love the Baichagi,they love complicated kicking.
They think it's beautiful thestepping, the sidesteps, the
clean poomsae, you know, and Iwas like, wow, this is amazing

(43:34):
actually.
So I think that it's a greattime to be in martial arts and
it's even a greater time to bein Taekwondo in martial arts and
it's even a greater time to bein Taekwondo.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
Yes, yeah, 100% agree .
I love to use the.
You talked about Koreanrestaurants.
If the three of us were to gettogether and say, hey, I'm in
the mood for Korean barbecue,we're probably going to choose
the restaurant that specializesin Korean barbecue.
We're probably not going tochoose the restaurant that
specializes in Korean barbecue.
We're probably not going tochoose the restaurant that has a
thousand things on their menu.

(44:07):
We prefer a restaurant thatspecializes and does one or two
things incredibly well.
And the advantage that we havein Taekwondo is that we have
what's called the fivecomponents, which is the basic
movement.
Self-defense is that we havewhat's called the five
components, which is the basicmovement self-defense, sparring,
we have breaking technique, wehave meditation, and so what
that does is that allows us toteach senior citizens.

(44:30):
It allows us to teach youngchildren.
It allows us to teach childrenand youth and people with
special needs.
It allows us to teach Olympiansand people that are high
performers.
And so when we say thatTaekwondo is literally martial
art for everybody, we'reactually walking the talk.
I believe that all martial artsare like that.

(44:53):
I believe that every singlemartial art is for any age,
class, any gender, becauseTaekwondo has been systemized
and evolved over the past.
You know 20, 30, 40 years.
We're in an incredible positionto deliver that to our
community.
Do you remember when the KarateKid first came out in the early
80s?
When you went to Taekwondoschools and martial arts schools

(45:14):
?
Those were all young, 20,30-year-old, young adult
militants.
They had no idea how to teachyoung kids.
Now you fast forward to 2025,and the majority of martial arts
clubs and Taekwondo clubs are60 to 80% children.
That speaks volumes.
People, and the science and thestudies prove what an

(45:38):
incredible benefit martial artstraining have for our staff.
So, yeah, I mean I agree,master Chong, that we are living
in the golden age for martialarts in Taekwondo for so many
reasons.
10, 20 years ago, I think ourbiggest competition was like

(45:59):
soccer and swimming.
I think in today's day and age,our biggest competition is this
Social media and kids on theinternet.
Man, they're not getting outenough, they're not moving
enough, they're not interactingenough.
I go to restaurants and I seeyoung couples beautiful lady and
a handsome young man and theydon't even say a word to each

(46:19):
other.
They're eating their whole mealwhile on their phone.
I don't know what they word toeach other.
They're eating their whole mealwhile on their phone.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
I don't know what they're doing liking their
friends or bragging about wherethey are.
They're texting each other.

Speaker 3 (46:29):
They're texting each other, I mean it's, you know.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
They're taking pictures of their food.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
I'm guilty of that I'm guilty of what you're eating
.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
If you're not eating with me, you don't need to know
about it.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
Oh my gosh.
But you know, I think you'reright.
We are living in the golden agebecause we need to learn that
socialization and that physicalexercise and the mental clarity
and the mental health Taekwondoand all martial arts does that,
and so, yeah, we are living inone of the greatest times to be

(47:05):
teaching that and instillingthat and then Cook real quick.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
don't you think it's a really good time to be a
single school operator, justlike if you just want to run it
with yourself or you and yourwife, like there are so many
systems that are available outthere like software, like point
of sale systems.
You use QR codes and somebodywalks in Absolutely.
It's all paperless.
You don't have to, you can justliterally, if, literally, if
you teach great classes, there'sability to advertise on social

(47:29):
media, there's ability to.
It's just a lot easier forsingle school operators.
You know, and for me, my entirebusiness for the last 10, 15
years has been multiple staffmembers, multiple part-timers.
But now, when I have two goodstaff members, instead of having
them run one location, I canhave them run their own
locations now.
So a leaner business model, soyour KPIs, your numbers, it's

(47:53):
what you, as you know inbusiness, is what you net, it's
the liabilities that you incur,not just you know, it's the net
of things, right?
So if you're a single schooloperator and you're a one-man
show, one-lady show, it's agreat time to be alive.
It is the golden age, you know,and in many ways it sounds
great 2,100 active students,dozens and dozens of staff.

(48:14):
But that is also a lot ofresponsibility, you know.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
I know that my small academy.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
I have a million-dollar payroll and I can
imagine that yours is more so Ithink it's very important to
understand.
If you're a single schooloperator, it's a great time.
Don't feel.
The grass is always greener onthe other side, you know, but
it's truly greener where youwater it.
So just just have hope.
Being you, reach out to us.
We want you to win.

(48:40):
If you can't come to Vegas,just just join our, join our
Facebook group, dm us, messageus, but we, we want you to do
well because we want martialarts.
It's a movement, right, and manyof us have been very fortunate
and blessed and and our goalobviously, we like to change the
lives of our students and ourstaff, but we want to change the

(49:01):
lives of the industry.
And, and if you are, you know,and master cook too, I'm sure
you've had some hard times.
I've had multiple hard times,peaks and troughs, peaks and
troughs and um, and that's partof the life, that's part of how
it goes.
But we are.
If you get to, if you get toteach classes today, you're
fortunate because there's somany people.

(49:21):
Yes, their, their investmentaccounts may look well.
Their, their, their Instagramlife, their Facebook posts, they
look amazing.
Most people that are really,really happy.
They don't post a lot of stuff,they're living it.
So you know I'm not poo-pooingon social media people, but I'm
poo-pooing on social mediapeople.
Just try to understand that ourgoal is we, we want you to win

(49:44):
and that's all we want.
Just pay it forward.
Pay it forward.
That's what MasterCook does.
Every time I've talked toMasterCook, tony Hulme, he never
asked me for anything.
He's just so nice and I justasked myself why is this guy
talking to me?
He's so amazing.
He could be hanging out withother people and I'm just
grateful.
And it's a wonderful communitythat we're blessed to be a part

(50:05):
of and we'd like more of you.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
Last year at Asah we had awonderful speaker, master Andy
Chong, and he spoke aboutrunning a tight boutique
taekwondo school.
By all counts he can havethousands, thousands of students
, but he chooses to have a verysmall, tight, tight run ship.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
He did I think he ran by six thousand students at one
point.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
Right, he did organization and now he has a
boutique school now of less than200 students and he does that
by choice.
And again, that it's.
It's about beginning with theend in mind.
If your goal is to have 80students, 100 students, work
three days week, work four daysa week, have a balanced
lifestyle wonderful, you have tostart with the end in mind.

(50:51):
So definitely ownership orsingle school ownership, it
comes down to understanding andloving your craft One of the
greatest restaurants in theworld is Jiro and loving your
craft.
You know, one of the greatestrestaurants in the world is Jiro
, I think.
He has a small sushi restaurantin an underground subway in

(51:11):
Japan and a tiny littlerestaurant.
Your whole meal is done within20 minutes.
But he doesn't have 10locations.
He has one little shop thathe's incredibly passionate about
.
He loves it, he's mastered hiscraft and that he's incredibly
passionate about.
He loves it, he's mastered hiscraft and that's his definition
of success.
So you're absolutely right,master Chong.
Our industry is for anybodythat wants to make a positive

(51:34):
difference, whether that's on asmall scale, medium scale, large
scale.
This is why coming to Asa is sobeautiful, because you get to
network with so many people.
I love talking to other schoolowners and learning from them,
and my goal is always to comeback with one to three new
implementable ideas so that Ican benefit our students.

(51:58):
So this October, which hotel isit at this year?
It's at the Paris Hilton andCasino.
Paris Hilton and Casino.
It's an opportunity to meetwith other club owners, have
drinks and dinner and developfriendships.
One of the ways that youprevent staff burnout is you
create positive outlets.

(52:20):
Create positive outlets and oneof the great, great ways of
preventing owner burnouts is tomeet like-minded individuals and
share in on the stresses andshare in on the problems and the
struggles and look forsolutions and know that
somebody's been there and donethat and draw strength from that
and draw encouragement fromthat.
So interesting.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
I'm so sorry.
Like you know, when you firstget married and then you know
you have a group of friends.
They're not married yet andit's a little, it's a little
different.
And then then when you starthaving kids, right, it's hard to
find people that are married,happily married, and then have
kids.
And then you're you're white,you get along with the guy, your
wife gets along with his wife,your kids actually get along.
It's crazy.

(53:00):
And then having people that dothe same kind of lifestyle, it's
very.
You know, I I grew up inamerica and I'm very
americanized and I saw, like, ifyou're thinking about, it's

(53:30):
like, oh man, it's a bunch ofkoreans to speak my korean's
horrible, but but we just and wehave a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
I can confirm that because my my korean's horrible.
But I finally met somebodywho's worse than I am, and
that's Master Tony Chow.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
In today's day of AI chat GPT, you can just literally
talk and have it translate foryou.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Oh, man, one of my friends texted me yesterday and
I was like exorcist.
And I was like he goes no, no,no, I says good.
And I was like he goes no, no,no, I says good.
And I was like, but Google, andI sent him a screenshot.
I was like, dude, I don't speakKorean, I don't want to tell
you, but I have had a Googletranslate all this shit that you
send me.
And then he goes no, no, no,that's a slang, it means good,
it doesn't mean exorcist.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
And I was like yeah, thank you Well, but, but
speaking in this I mean our showand our podcast, and our show
is very Korean andTaekwondo-centric, because
that's just a network of who weknow and our friends and so

(54:34):
forth.
But our show is applicable toall martial arts styles because
it's not about what style weteach on the mat, it's about how
we run the business.
It's about how we run thebusiness.
So whether you're doing karateor kung fu or jiu-jitsu or any
style, I really believe our showand the topics that we talk
about is applicable to allmartial arts school owners and

(54:56):
they are all invited to our ASAsummit coming up in October.
So please don't think that,because we only can relate to
Taekwondo, that it's only forTaekwondo, but it's for
everybody in US, canada, youknow it's very interesting.
I was seeing the stats of who islistening.
They give me stats of wherethey're listening from and
majority is US, but there's alot of Canadians in England.

(55:17):
It was very interesting howpeople are gravitating to our
show.
I found that fascinating.
But I want to thank you guys,both Master Cook and Master
Chung, joining us today.
It was a wonderful, wonderfultopic.
I hope our audience and ourlisteners got a lot out of this
and you can meet all of us.

(55:38):
We'll all be there, master TonyChung, myself, master Tony Cook
will be there in Paris Hoteland Casino this October for our
ASA Summit.
Please check our show linksbelow.
I'll have all the informationlinked there.
Final thoughts Master Chung,master Cook, let's start with
you, master Chung.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Final thoughts you can do it.
You know just, you're not alone.
Every day is a new challenge.
You know just, you're not alone.
Every day is a new challenge.
And just know that even MasterCook and myself, even though we
seemingly have a lot ofresponsibility and a lot of
success, we're all in the sameboat.
We have to continue to drivevalue and add value to our
customers, and it's all aboutthe student experience.
And everybody is in tougheconomic times and in tough

(56:23):
times worldwide.
It's a great opportunity, notonly for business but just for
purpose, to give people areprieve and a sabbatical from
their everyday life.
They can leave their issues atthe door, They'll be there for
them when class is over.
And what we provide?
Regardless of age, gender,political affiliation, religion,

(56:43):
we're there to give them aphysical outlet and a mental
conditioning so that they canwin in what their true pursuits
are in life.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
Master Cook.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
And you never let your fears be greater than your
faith, and you always have to berelentless in the pursuit of
what sets your soul on fire.
For us, it's making a positiveimpact to our communities
through the platform ofTaekwondo.
So if you want to elevate yourdojang to the next level, come
to Asa.
I would love to meet you,Master Tony Chung.
Master Jimmy Hong would love tomeet you.
We would love to help you.

(57:23):
We would love to meet you,Master Tony Chung.
Master Jimmy Hong would love tomeet you.
We would love to help you.
We would love to learn from youand we would love to network
with one another.
So I look forward to seeingeveryone in Las Vegas.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Well said, sir.
Well said Master Tony Chung.
Thank you for listening.
Thank you for taking the timeto learn and listen to our show.
I look forward to our nextepisode.
Thank you everybody.
Have a great week.

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#10 | How to Create Sustainable Staff Pipelines That Prevent Burnout

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#10 | How to Create Sustainable Staff Pipelines That Prevent Burnout