April 18, 2025 • 31 mins
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Master Lee, with over 2,100 active students across multiple locations, shares the mathematical formula behind martial arts school growth in this data-driven episode of Black Belt Banter. By reverse-engineering your student acquisition goals, you can precisely calculate how many leads and trials you need to achieve sustainable growth.
Every marketing activity yields different quality leads - website inquiries convert at 90%, while social media leads might only convert at 5-10%. Referrals remain the gold standard at nearly 95% conversion. Understanding these variations helps you allocate your marketing resources more effectively. Master Lee emphasizes the superiority of proactive marketing (where you collect contact information and follow up) over reactive marketing (like social media posts that require prospects to take action).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jimmy Hong (00:01):
In this episode.
Number two are your potentialcustomers converting into actual
paying students.
Welcome to Black Belt Banterthe best podcast to help your
martial arts school increase inprofits and generate substantial
revenue.
I'm Jimmy Hong and my co-hostis Master Chan Lee.
Master Chan has over 2,100active students with multiple
(00:25):
locations.
He is well-renowned and highlyrespected by his fellow peers
for his business acumenoperating martial arts schools
.
Master Chan, welcome, and howwould you like to just deep dive
into this topic today?
Chan Lee (00:40):
If you look at any business, it doesn't matter,
everybody has a marketingdepartment and everybody has the
ability to get new customers.
And then not only do you haveto get new customers, and what
does a mathematician have to dowith beer?
That's a kind of veryinteresting thing.
(01:07):
He's a high-level mathematician, he goes.
My job is to look at themetrics of what we spend
budget-wise for the advertisingthat we do for our beer.
And then how does thattranslate into sales?
Miller's always played secondMiller's here in Milwaukee and
it's always played second fiddleto Budweiser back in the beer
wars and they had this greatcampaign with athletes and
(01:29):
whatever, and within a year theykilled it because it wasn't
translating into beer sales.
I bring that up as an examplebecause I really believe the
same has to happen for ourmartial arts schools and we
talked about this in our lastpodcast about one of the key
metrics is making sure that yououtgrow your attrition rate and
quit rate in your school.
What are the numbers?
So my general idea is I wouldlike, if I want to get 20 new
(01:55):
students in a month, let'sreverse engineer that.
If I get 20 new students amonth, let's just use 10.
Let's even, and you can justadd the numbers briefly.
And I have 10 new students amonth and I have an 80% close
rate.
That means 80% of my studentswill prospects will sign up.
Then how many new students do Ineed?
(02:17):
Or how many new prospects do Ineed?
And then so you reverseengineer that if you are getting
80% right, then you roughlyneed about what 12 new people in
trial.
So, out of the 12 new people intrial that have paid a trial
and so forth, how many leads didit take for you to get them?
(02:38):
And in general, my general ruleis about 20%.
So if you get 100 leads, you'regoing to get 20 people in trial
, if that makes sense, is itnormal to be that low 20% from
these leads?
100%.
It depends on, let me just get.
(02:59):
Let me just suffice to say itdepends on the actual activity.
If it's a buddy day, I'm goingto have a higher percentage of
people that are going tocontinue because they're
bringing them to a specificevent, that is, for Taekwondo.
If it's a birthday party, thoseare a little bit harder in
terms of translating intocustomers, because they came for
(03:20):
a birthday party they didn'treally come for a Taekwondo
class.
If it's a website inquiry,that's a 90% close rate.
Someone says I'm interested inmartial arts and I call them
back 90% of the time they'regonna come in for a trial.
So it's all over the board onthe quality of leads that you
get.
So if you average it all out,it's 20%.
So it's one of those.
(03:42):
What's the expression?
You throw a spaghetti againstthe wall and see what sticks.
That's martial art marketing.
There are some things we justwant to really work out and do
and getting it.
Social media leads oh my gosh,maybe a 5% 10% return.
You get a hundred leads comingin and maybe 5% 5% will go in.
(04:04):
Those are not as high qualityleads as we want.
I'm trying to figure out someother things with that and to
kind of pre-sell them or pre-dothat.
But anyway, I'm going off on adifferent topic.
But point is, is I go 20%.
So if you reverse engineer yournumbers and if you don't know
these numbers, then you're like,okay, I got to figure out
what's going on in my own schooland how I can convert better
(04:25):
and what's a better lead to comein.
If you get a referral, straightup referral, that's almost like
9,500%.
Hey, my neighbor, we've beentalking about you and they want
to come in with Joey's class.
That's a really high levelreferral.
So, once again, 20% is the idea.
So now you, now everybody'slistening to my math skills here
(04:47):
and now you've totally thrownme off, jimmy Hong, but we've
got.
So if I want 10 new students, Iwant 10 new students.
I need 12 in, I need 12 intrial.
If we're talking about 80%people signing up, and then how
many of that?
If I have 20%, I need roughly Iwant to say 50 to 60 leads.
(05:07):
Right, 50 to 60 leads is whatwe're looking for on a monthly
basis to do it.
So then, if I'm doing 50 to 60leads, then what's the average
lead that I'm getting from abirthday party or an event that
I'm running and so forth.
Once again, knowing yournumbers is incredibly important,
right, and figuring out if youwant 20, then you're going to
double it.
You want 30 or 40, you can dothat.
(05:29):
So there's a lot of ways toposition events and so forth.
However, the two things that Ifound that were really good
events and things to do isworking with the school systems,
and when you work with theschool systems, we do a program
that many different people, manydifferent organizations, do it.
(05:51):
This is not a brand new idea,but if you are hearing it for
the first time, it's just supersimple.
You work with the schoolsystems.
As you're talking with theschool systems, you do a PTO,
pta fundraiser on their behalf.
You run a two or three weekTaekwondo program where you got
to have staff or someone to runit off site.
That's the big kicker and yourun the Taekwondo program there,
(06:11):
leading to a white beltgraduation back at your location
.
One of our locations got 30 newmembers in one day just doing
that.
That is, I want to say, a 30 or40% return.
So if you're talking to 100kids there, you're going to get
a if you do a good job, 20 to30% return and then all your
numbers sometimes don't work out.
(06:32):
Then you've got to look at whathappened.
Who ran the event?
Was it done with the type ofhigh level, high energy, vigor
that is necessary to make thatevent very successful?
Or was it done very poorly andit wasn't exciting enough for
people to want to continue, andso forth?
Once again, I'm not going tolie to you on this podcast.
If you're not getting theresults that you need, you may
(06:53):
need to reformat, redo it, bemore inspirational and fun.
And you got to be honest withyourself that sucked.
If I was a eight-year-old kid,would I want to learn from you?
Jimmy Hong (07:07):
And these events, whether you're at their school
or at the mall or whatever thecity parade, it doesn't matter
what it is.
You're not teaching a class atthese events.
You have a limited time tomarket your school and try to
gain as many leads as possible.
So don't think of it as oh, Igot to teach these kids how to
do a punch properly or a kickproperly.
(07:29):
That's not what these leadgeneration is about.
It's about creating as muchexcitement and motivation to
these kids and families as muchas possible in this short amount
of time, and are your numberone goal is to have them walk
through that door or give you acall, not about teaching them a
right kick or right technique100%, 100%, and I also want to
(07:55):
talk about this concept.
Chan Lee (07:56):
I call this proactive marketing and reactive marketing
.
Reactive marketing is I put anad in a paper.
I put an ad.
I'm dating myself who looks atthe newspaper anymore?
I put an ad at Facebook.
I put an ad in social media andthen I'm reacting to all the
things that happened from thatand I do the parade, 4th of July
(08:17):
parade.
I hand out a bunch ofinformation.
It's not appropriate for me towalk in the parade and get
everybody's name and numbers andso forth.
It's a parade, it's a brandingtype of event.
It's huge for us.
Unless I have a booth at theparade somewhere, then that's
totally worth doing.
But this 4th of July thing forus is more of a branding thing
in our community.
(08:37):
When I did the 4th of Julyparade, no one did it.
I was the only one that did it.
Now all my competitors do the4th of July parade, so we got to
be there.
So I normally get 10 to 15students throughout the whole
year just off of that.
So that's reactive marketing.
I do something and then I knowI'm going to get a return on it
at some point.
It's just not immediate andit's worth doing in our
(08:58):
community to do Proactivemarketing is when I do this,
when I'm able to get your name,your contact info, ie your phone
number, your email and I cancontact you and then I can
actively get you involved in atrial.
That is proactive marketing.
And so I really believe thatyou've got to do a lot more
(09:20):
proactive marketing thanreactive marketing.
Reactive marketing you do, butit's not 100% of what you do.
Proactive marketing is what youshould think how can I get a
name and number and how can Icontact you and how can I entice
you to get in to our programand so forth.
So it's about lead collection.
That's what we call those leadsand those are all what I call
(09:41):
people that are interested.
They've risen their hand aboutdoing a program with you.
All right, my goal is to justsay and I call this a sales
ladder it's a common concept inall types of businesses and the
sales ladder is you do it at alower cost.
So, for example, when I wasgrowing up, mercedes-benz was
the kind of gold standard forachievement.
(10:03):
You bought a Mercedes-Benz holycow and then they did entry
level you know the C100 seriesand they did baby Benz.
Remember the baby Benz, theydid a smaller sedan and it was
to get the 20-somethings to paya little bit more than buying a
Toyota.
But moving into theMercedes-Benz world, so as they
make more money they'll end upgetting a more expensive
(10:26):
Mercedes-Benz and they call thementry models and so forth.
Spends and they call them entrymodels and so forth.
That's the same concept that Ican't get you in a full-blown
program $189 a month, $200 amonth, whatever.
I got to start in baby steps andswitching gears into sales.
It's really important that youhave a sales process that goes
(10:47):
you can try us for free.
That's one way of doing it.
So that's our first openingline is that we have a one week
free trial.
You can try it for free, seehow you'll get and so forth.
So you try it and then you trya class.
And then the second thing is Iwant them to buy something.
So for me, I make them spend$59 and they buy a uniform and
once they buy a uniform they geta one month of martial art
(11:08):
classes at our academy.
And so after three weeks two tothree weeks I'll hit them up to
do a program and in thatprogram we'll upsell them to a
$189 a month program at ourschool.
Now our programs are 60 daynotice to cancel, so you can
cancel at any time.
(11:28):
It's not a hard and fastcontract.
I just want 60 days notice ifyou're going to stop this at any
time and so forth.
In my opinion, I am seeing theconsumer base a lot less to
making a what Commitment andit's not a commitment based
society.
What I want them to do is fallin love and they go.
(11:50):
I'm going to do this to BlackBelt.
That really is kind of like myincentive to get them.
I used to do the six monthupgrade, the Black Belt Club.
It was a higher dollar amountand so forth.
I still have friends that usethat model.
If that's working for you, thendo it.
But for me, from a salesstandpoint, it's just very easy
for my prospects to just followthis little sales ladder and
(12:13):
getting involved in our program.
Included in all of this programand for what I do is that I
offer a free one-month programto a parent and if they make a
six-month commitment in payingupfront for their membership, I
will also include a 90 daymembership for the parents.
So it's half of what theycommit to and so forth.
(12:34):
Anyway, that's what we do.
I do it in six months and 12months increments.
If they do want to pay in full,there is a little bit of a
discount it's a 10% discount todo, but I don't live and die
with people paying in full forour programs.
If they want to do monthly,they can do monthly as a part of
developing their memberships inour academy.
Jimmy Hong (12:52):
There's two school of thoughts regarding the pay in
fulls.
So you have just steadfastschool owners.
Listen, the pay in fullswhether you're collecting 12
months or 36 months in front isjust creates so much revenue for
that month.
Instead of getting $180 a month, you're going to get $6,000 to
(13:13):
$8,000 a month just from onestudent.
If you just multiply that bythree students, you're already
looking at $18,000 a month ontop of whatever your monthly
revenues incur.
Versus the other school ofthought is don't do painfuls.
Get everybody into monthlies,get everybody into.
Make sure your monthly revenuescome in and that's steady and
(13:34):
that's consistent.
But the pay in fulls, the payin full.
School owners are listen, thebest way to keep retention is
having those families andparents pay in full.
After they pay in full, even ifthey cancel.
They can't because what do theydo?
They're already paying full.
They're committed, just howyou're committed to them.
So there are pros and cons interms of the paying fulls versus
(13:58):
monthly.
How you run your school and howyou want to collect is
ultimately up to you.
Master Chan and I, we've doneboth ways.
Master Chan is actually.
He's done paying fulls too sowell that his monthly revenues
was just off the charts.
But yeah, master Chan, I'msorry.
Chan Lee (14:16):
going back to you, yeah, bottom line, here's your
formula for pay in fulls.
If you're not getting any newstudents, you shouldn't be doing
paid in fulls.
You're going to kill yourbusiness.
It's just not the rightstrategy.
But if you're let's just use I'dlike to use 10 as a benchmark.
If you're getting 10 newstudents a month and let's use
simple numbers you're doing ahundred dollars a month.
(14:38):
So 10 new students, a hundreddollars a month, that's a
thousand bucks a month.
And then the following month ifyou can use a spreadsheet and
do this you get another 10 newstudents.
Then they're paying a100 amonth and nine a month revenue
went up to $2,000 a month.
However, if I let's just use20% two people, if I go well
(14:58):
here if you pay in full for ayear, I'll give you a $200
discount.
So you get two months for free.
Just pay me $1,000.
Now that's the discount to dopaid in full amount.
If you had a fake academy herein this scenario.
So then you're getting $2,000,plus you're getting the $800.
(15:19):
So I'm making $2,800 comparedto the thousand that you made.
I'm up what?
1,800 bucks.
All right, and so if I keepdoing that every month, at the
end of the year you're going tohave had made $21,000 more than
you, right?
(15:40):
I go to my CPA and I go I'vemade $21,000 more than what
you've made over the year.
I said it's a good, it's adecent strategy.
It's not you should.
I'm looking, you're looking.
You're talking to a guy thatused to do 90% paid in fulls.
Everybody paid in full for amembership.
I had very little monthlyrevenue in my early days.
That's just the way I wastrained, that's what I thought
the industry was like.
(16:00):
And now I advocate 10 to 20%paid in fulls, possibly going to
30 around the holiday times oryou've just had a huge amount of
people just paid 20, 30 peopledoing monthly.
So that is my opinion.
It is not law, but it'ssomething for you guys to
consider as a way to make somerevenue and so forth.
(16:21):
But whole point of this ismarketing and sales making sure
you know how many leadgenerating events that you need
to make for your academy.
Just to recap real quick thenhow many of those convert to
sales, how many of those trialsturn into actual paying members?
And then there's another numberis what percent of those people
(16:42):
are you paying full or not orare you just doing all a monthly
model?
Then you can extrapolate what,projecting what your yearly
income is going to be.
You're a school owner.
Don't say that You're a businessowner.
Let's just say that you need toproject what your revenues are
going to be and where you'regoing to go, and marketing and
(17:03):
sales is a huge part of that.
So if you, once again I saidthis in the last podcast if you
don't know where you are, thenyou don't know where you're
going to be headed.
So you've got to get thesenumbers down and so forth and,
once again, marketing and salesis a huge part of that important
part of going to where you wantto be as an organization.
And, once again, I think MasterJimmy Hong knows I know a lot
(17:28):
of people in this industry and Iam not comfortable disclosing
who they are because I haven'tgotten their permission to say
who they are.
Jimmy Hong (17:35):
Don't worry, I'll disclose them on the show notes.
Chan Lee (17:39):
Go ahead and then you're going to get all this
vitriol online.
But you know someone that in aone-year period they built a
active school with 400 members.
I kid you not, they're aphenomena.
And I say stuff like thatbecause I want to inspire you to
think, oh, this can be done.
You just got to know yournumbers and you know what you
(18:00):
got to know what activities yougot to do, and if you do that
and you are a hundred percentdecided in doing that, you can
make it happen like big time.
But if you don't know what todo, then this is you're swimming
without a goal.
You're trying to get to theother end of the pool without
really knowing how to do it.
Jimmy Hong (18:16):
So let's go into the specifics of this, the details
of this paid in fulls.
You don't want to.
If you're thinking of doing paidin fulls or you're not
successful in paid in fulls, aword of advice is that don't hit
up your new brand, newcustomers and option of oh hey,
(18:36):
here is the monthly and here'sthe paid in fulls.
Let's do the pay in fulls.
Have them join your martialarts school and your classes,
first for the first couple ofmonths.
Have them build that rapportwith you and then within a few
months, they're going to havethis trust and they know that
you're going to be a master,you're going to be a mentor for
their kids, for the families,and that you're part of this
(18:59):
quality of community in yourcommunity, in your neighborhood.
So then they're more open andsusceptible to be hey, you know
what I just want to commit, Iwant to have the discount, and
then they'll be more susceptibleto your pay in fulls instead of
trying to give them so manyoptions when they have met you.
They don't know you and thenthey have to decide whether to
do the monthly pay-in-fulls ornot join at all.
(19:22):
That is one very importanttopic and aspect of how to do
paid-in-fulls successfully ifyou want to take that route.
Chan Lee (19:32):
I call that TMI, which is like you go, we have this
option, we have that option, wego, we get this.
So once again, let's gobackwards here.
If you look in the minds of thecustomer, I want them to go.
Yeah, see, if you like it, tryit for free for the first week.
All right, I want you to buy$59 for a month and let's see
how your child reacts after amonth.
Then, after they pay the $59,after two or three weeks, I go
(19:54):
listen, if I did a good job inthe classroom, I want them to
love it.
Then I'll go give them amonthly option Once again.
Let's just keep the numbersimple.
It's 100 bucks a month.
So they're paying 100 bucks amonth and then, after they
decide that they're gonna dowith 100 bucks a month, I give
them an option.
I go if you make a six monthcommitment, right, or a 12 month
commitment, I will give you apercentage off of that.
(20:16):
I'll give you 50 bucks off thetuition.
Or if you do the 12 months,I'll give you $200.
I'll give you two months forfree, and I don't always offer
that.
If we did too many paid infulls that month I will not make
, we won't do it.
But then you have that optionAfter they've said yes.
So don't give them the paid infull option until they've
decided that they want to makethe $100 a month option, because
(20:37):
then they're thinking do I dothis?
Just let them get the yes first.
Get the first yes and then youhave two other ways of getting
the paid in full.
And you got to think of how youbake a cake or how you make a
dish.
You don't throw the eggs intothe flour after you throw the
cake into the oven.
There's a system You've got toput the eggs in a little earlier
(20:58):
or whatever.
Same thing If you hit someoneup after they've met you for an
hour and then you go, hey, mymembership's a hundred bucks a
month.
I tell them that's not.
You got to make a one yearcommitment or a three year
commitment or whatever.
It's not the mindset of thecurrent customer and the
customer base as they're doingit and Master Hong just did this
perfectly and the customer baseas they're doing it, and Master
(21:20):
Hong just did this perfectly.
If you look at the salesparadigm and you go, okay, what
generates sales?
And you look at that, thebiggest thing is trust and
rapport.
People have to trust you andthey have to have a good rapport
with you If they like you thatthis is kind of an old school
idea If they like you, they'llmake a decision to buy with you.
If they don't like you or yousend them the wrong vibe,
(21:43):
they're not going to do it.
Have you ever bought anythingfrom someone that you hate or
you didn't like or seemed shadyto you?
You didn't, you just kind oftook your business somewhere
else.
And so super important that youguys are understanding that you
got to build this trust andrapport and then you got to
identify the need of thecustomer.
Why are they there for?
And if you look at that, there'sonly two reasons why people
(22:07):
bring their kids in the classmake sure the kid is loud.
He's, he kiaps loud, kicks,punches, raises his hand in your
class eventually.
That is one aspect.
The second aspect of this isthat you also want to make sure
(22:31):
the second kid that comes inneeds discipline.
The kid's bouncing off thewalls and doing crazy, stand at
attention straight, look me inthe eye and then, be sure, when
you say look me in the eye, youdo it with an Asian accent.
So you go oh, it's a rook eye.
I'm just kidding, don't do that.
You rook eye and pre's the shitdown and you fuckus, you, shit
(22:55):
you.
But anyway, don't do that OldTaekwondo joke there.
Make sure that the kid isfocused, he's listening to
directions and he's able tofollow.
And so your instructor in yourintro class has got to these
trial classes have to followthat that's.
Another aspect of this is thatdo you have enough people
helping you out?
And make sure you can have thatIf you have a leadership team.
(23:20):
When I first started my martialarts school or I was growing
our organization, we didn't havea lot of paid staff, so we had
a leadership team and theleadership team are your high
level black belts with greatattitudes, not just black belts,
someone with a.
I have a lady that's a greenbelt at one of my locations.
She works at a church.
(23:40):
She's the marketing directorfor a really big church and she
has a pleasant disposition abouther.
She's very polite and nice andkind and so forth, and the
reason I'm telling you this isthat she helps me with all my
new white belts and the moms andhey, stand over here, buddy.
And she does warmups with themand she's not even paid staff so
(24:01):
you can find people that helpyou.
They don't have to be a blackbelt, they're just nice people
and can they help beginners.
She holds targets for them andhigh fives them and so forth.
So anyway, that's a wholenother topic for a different day
.
But make sure your beginnertrial classes are staffed
(24:22):
correctly, with the right amountof people so they all have a
great experience.
If one of your red belts breaka toe in class, if they kick the
target and they broke a toe,they'll probably tape it up and
be back at your Taekwondo school, you know, the next day, or
they finish out class.
They're just.
That's the way that you'vetrained them.
You have a white belt thatbreaks their toe.
On the third day they kick atarget wrong or something.
They're never coming back.
They're like man, the third dayI broke my toe.
(24:44):
Man, by the fifth day I mightbreak a neck.
So you got to make sure thatevery one of those classes are
over the top great.
It's an incredible, fantasticexperience and that's your goal.
Script it out.
It's one of those things Irecommend is just make sure you
have something.
That's fun and so forth.
But once again, we'll talkabout more of these in detail I
(25:05):
don't want to make these toolong and so forth.
Jimmy Hong (25:07):
Well, it sounds like you have a two intro system,
like a week intro system andthen a month after that before
they join into your program.
Is that correct?
Correct?
Chan Lee (25:18):
Correct.
That is absolutely correct,because I got a lot of rid of
our sales systems in terms of Iused to be the one intro signup
guy.
You did one intro and usuallyyou committed to 36 months One.
That's how good I am Sorry.
Anyway, it's a common theme.
You guys are going to hear thatwe're so sick of him, hearing
him brag about how awesome he is, but anyway, the and I just it
(25:42):
wasn't recreatable and it wasone of those things where I said
, okay, this is not just, it'snot an easy system.
So, to be honest with you andonce again, I can talk about
this in other podcasts in moredetail but I have 14, 15 and 16
year old kids running my firstintros.
They do the 15 minute intro andthen they bring them into class
and then they just try it andthen I want them to turn them
(26:04):
into paying customers and soforth.
So this is what we do in ourorganization.
I don't know if it works for you, but it works for us.
And if I'm creating these superconfident, awesome black belts,
then I want them to see theproduct which is my black belts.
They're the ones helping me outwith the beginners and so forth
(26:25):
.
So that's my sales system in anutshell and what we do, but I
just want to give generalitieswith making sure marketing and
sales as you grow yourorganization and I talked about
this in the live podcast there'sa lot of kids.
There's not enough kids doingmartial arts and they need us
right now.
Jimmy Hong (26:38):
They need the type of inspiration that martial arts
has given you, that they needthat to be better kids and so
forth so that's a great pointyou make there, master chan is
because, like the, yes, you cansell the three-year program,
(26:59):
one-year program, what thetwo-year program?
But you can't replicate thatand you can't have all your
staff do it.
So, to compensate, make yourprogram as easy, as enrolled as
possible so your staff canenroll everybody that walks
through your door and you're notthe bottleneck to increasing
(27:20):
your students and your school.
Would that be accurate, masterChan?
Yeah, 100%, 100%, so thateverybody, every school, has
different programs andenrollment systems.
But just keep that in mindwhile you're fine-tuning and
adjusting to your school howeasy, how quick you want that
(27:40):
enrollment process to be.
You want, master Chan's, twotypes of trials that's just
really easy to walk through andthen just super easy to enroll.
You want to do a one class,one-on-one, get their full,
divided attention, motivate andthen get them enrolled.
That's ultimately up to you.
But knowing that you havedifferent options out there and
(28:04):
you want to try both One month,do one way, another month, do
another way Check out yournumbers and see what is more
effective.
There's no right or wrong wayto do this, it's just what is it
going to take to get yourschool to that next level and
successfully in terms of profitsand revenues.
That will conclude our today'sepisode Number two.
(28:27):
I want to thank Master Chan, asalways.
We look forward to our nextepisode next week.
We're going to have a greattopic for you.
I'll see you guys, everybody,master Chan, any final thoughts?
Chan Lee (28:41):
You guys keep changing the world.
Every day you're out there, youguys get that email or the note
from the parent about how theirkid has changed and became
better human beings because ofit.
Use that as your fuel andinspiration to do what you do.
So the world needs us.
Let's go.
Jimmy Hong (28:58):
Have a great week, guys.
Lots of success to your schools.
See you guys next week.
Bye.
In this episode.
Number two are your potentialcustomers converting into actual
paying students.
Welcome to Black Belt Banterthe best podcast to help your
martial arts school increase inprofits and generate substantial
revenue.
I'm Jimmy Hong and my co-hostis Master Chan Lee.
Master Chan has over 2,100active students with multiple
(00:25):
locations.
He is well-renowned and highlyrespected by his fellow peers
for his business acumenoperating martial arts schools
.
Master Chan, welcome, and howwould you like to just deep dive
into this topic today?
Chan Lee (00:40):
If you look at any business, it doesn't matter,
everybody has a marketingdepartment and everybody has the
ability to get new customers.
And then not only do you haveto get new customers, and what
does a mathematician have to dowith beer?
That's a kind of veryinteresting thing.
(01:07):
He's a high-level mathematician, he goes.
My job is to look at themetrics of what we spend
budget-wise for the advertisingthat we do for our beer.
And then how does thattranslate into sales?
Miller's always played secondMiller's here in Milwaukee and
it's always played second fiddleto Budweiser back in the beer
wars and they had this greatcampaign with athletes and
(01:29):
whatever, and within a year theykilled it because it wasn't
translating into beer sales.
I bring that up as an examplebecause I really believe the
same has to happen for ourmartial arts schools and we
talked about this in our lastpodcast about one of the key
metrics is making sure that yououtgrow your attrition rate and
quit rate in your school.
What are the numbers?
So my general idea is I wouldlike, if I want to get 20 new
(01:55):
students in a month, let'sreverse engineer that.
If I get 20 new students amonth, let's just use 10.
Let's even, and you can justadd the numbers briefly.
And I have 10 new students amonth and I have an 80% close
rate.
That means 80% of my studentswill prospects will sign up.
Then how many new students do Ineed?
(02:17):
Or how many new prospects do Ineed?
And then so you reverseengineer that if you are getting
80% right, then you roughlyneed about what 12 new people in
trial.
So, out of the 12 new people intrial that have paid a trial
and so forth, how many leads didit take for you to get them?
(02:38):
And in general, my general ruleis about 20%.
So if you get 100 leads, you'regoing to get 20 people in trial
, if that makes sense, is itnormal to be that low 20% from
these leads?
100%.
It depends on, let me just get.
(02:59):
Let me just suffice to say itdepends on the actual activity.
If it's a buddy day, I'm goingto have a higher percentage of
people that are going tocontinue because they're
bringing them to a specificevent, that is, for Taekwondo.
If it's a birthday party, thoseare a little bit harder in
terms of translating intocustomers, because they came for
(03:20):
a birthday party they didn'treally come for a Taekwondo
class.
If it's a website inquiry,that's a 90% close rate.
Someone says I'm interested inmartial arts and I call them
back 90% of the time they'regonna come in for a trial.
So it's all over the board onthe quality of leads that you
get.
So if you average it all out,it's 20%.
So it's one of those.
(03:42):
What's the expression?
You throw a spaghetti againstthe wall and see what sticks.
That's martial art marketing.
There are some things we justwant to really work out and do
and getting it.
Social media leads oh my gosh,maybe a 5% 10% return.
You get a hundred leads comingin and maybe 5% 5% will go in.
(04:04):
Those are not as high qualityleads as we want.
I'm trying to figure out someother things with that and to
kind of pre-sell them or pre-dothat.
But anyway, I'm going off on adifferent topic.
But point is, is I go 20%.
So if you reverse engineer yournumbers and if you don't know
these numbers, then you're like,okay, I got to figure out
what's going on in my own schooland how I can convert better
(04:25):
and what's a better lead to comein.
If you get a referral, straightup referral, that's almost like
9,500%.
Hey, my neighbor, we've beentalking about you and they want
to come in with Joey's class.
That's a really high levelreferral.
So, once again, 20% is the idea.
So now you, now everybody'slistening to my math skills here
(04:47):
and now you've totally thrownme off, jimmy Hong, but we've
got.
So if I want 10 new students, Iwant 10 new students.
I need 12 in, I need 12 intrial.
If we're talking about 80%people signing up, and then how
many of that?
If I have 20%, I need roughly Iwant to say 50 to 60 leads.
(05:07):
Right, 50 to 60 leads is whatwe're looking for on a monthly
basis to do it.
So then, if I'm doing 50 to 60leads, then what's the average
lead that I'm getting from abirthday party or an event that
I'm running and so forth.
Once again, knowing yournumbers is incredibly important,
right, and figuring out if youwant 20, then you're going to
double it.
You want 30 or 40, you can dothat.
(05:29):
So there's a lot of ways toposition events and so forth.
However, the two things that Ifound that were really good
events and things to do isworking with the school systems,
and when you work with theschool systems, we do a program
that many different people, manydifferent organizations, do it.
(05:51):
This is not a brand new idea,but if you are hearing it for
the first time, it's just supersimple.
You work with the schoolsystems.
As you're talking with theschool systems, you do a PTO,
pta fundraiser on their behalf.
You run a two or three weekTaekwondo program where you got
to have staff or someone to runit off site.
That's the big kicker and yourun the Taekwondo program there,
(06:11):
leading to a white beltgraduation back at your location
.
One of our locations got 30 newmembers in one day just doing
that.
That is, I want to say, a 30 or40% return.
So if you're talking to 100kids there, you're going to get
a if you do a good job, 20 to30% return and then all your
numbers sometimes don't work out.
(06:32):
Then you've got to look at whathappened.
Who ran the event?
Was it done with the type ofhigh level, high energy, vigor
that is necessary to make thatevent very successful?
Or was it done very poorly andit wasn't exciting enough for
people to want to continue, andso forth?
Once again, I'm not going tolie to you on this podcast.
If you're not getting theresults that you need, you may
(06:53):
need to reformat, redo it, bemore inspirational and fun.
And you got to be honest withyourself that sucked.
If I was a eight-year-old kid,would I want to learn from you?
Jimmy Hong (07:07):
And these events, whether you're at their school
or at the mall or whatever thecity parade, it doesn't matter
what it is.
You're not teaching a class atthese events.
You have a limited time tomarket your school and try to
gain as many leads as possible.
So don't think of it as oh, Igot to teach these kids how to
do a punch properly or a kickproperly.
(07:29):
That's not what these leadgeneration is about.
It's about creating as muchexcitement and motivation to
these kids and families as muchas possible in this short amount
of time, and are your numberone goal is to have them walk
through that door or give you acall, not about teaching them a
right kick or right technique100%, 100%, and I also want to
(07:55):
talk about this concept.
Chan Lee (07:56):
I call this proactive marketing and reactive marketing
.
Reactive marketing is I put anad in a paper.
I put an ad.
I'm dating myself who looks atthe newspaper anymore?
I put an ad at Facebook.
I put an ad in social media andthen I'm reacting to all the
things that happened from thatand I do the parade, 4th of July
(08:17):
parade.
I hand out a bunch ofinformation.
It's not appropriate for me towalk in the parade and get
everybody's name and numbers andso forth.
It's a parade, it's a brandingtype of event.
It's huge for us.
Unless I have a booth at theparade somewhere, then that's
totally worth doing.
But this 4th of July thing forus is more of a branding thing
in our community.
(08:37):
When I did the 4th of Julyparade, no one did it.
I was the only one that did it.
Now all my competitors do the4th of July parade, so we got to
be there.
So I normally get 10 to 15students throughout the whole
year just off of that.
So that's reactive marketing.
I do something and then I knowI'm going to get a return on it
at some point.
It's just not immediate andit's worth doing in our
(08:58):
community to do Proactivemarketing is when I do this,
when I'm able to get your name,your contact info, ie your phone
number, your email and I cancontact you and then I can
actively get you involved in atrial.
That is proactive marketing.
And so I really believe thatyou've got to do a lot more
(09:20):
proactive marketing thanreactive marketing.
Reactive marketing you do, butit's not 100% of what you do.
Proactive marketing is what youshould think how can I get a
name and number and how can Icontact you and how can I entice
you to get in to our programand so forth.
So it's about lead collection.
That's what we call those leadsand those are all what I call
(09:41):
people that are interested.
They've risen their hand aboutdoing a program with you.
All right, my goal is to justsay and I call this a sales
ladder it's a common concept inall types of businesses and the
sales ladder is you do it at alower cost.
So, for example, when I wasgrowing up, mercedes-benz was
the kind of gold standard forachievement.
(10:03):
You bought a Mercedes-Benz holycow and then they did entry
level you know the C100 seriesand they did baby Benz.
Remember the baby Benz, theydid a smaller sedan and it was
to get the 20-somethings to paya little bit more than buying a
Toyota.
But moving into theMercedes-Benz world, so as they
make more money they'll end upgetting a more expensive
(10:26):
Mercedes-Benz and they call thementry models and so forth.
Spends and they call them entrymodels and so forth.
That's the same concept that Ican't get you in a full-blown
program $189 a month, $200 amonth, whatever.
I got to start in baby steps andswitching gears into sales.
It's really important that youhave a sales process that goes
(10:47):
you can try us for free.
That's one way of doing it.
So that's our first openingline is that we have a one week
free trial.
You can try it for free, seehow you'll get and so forth.
So you try it and then you trya class.
And then the second thing is Iwant them to buy something.
So for me, I make them spend$59 and they buy a uniform and
once they buy a uniform they geta one month of martial art
(11:08):
classes at our academy.
And so after three weeks two tothree weeks I'll hit them up to
do a program and in thatprogram we'll upsell them to a
$189 a month program at ourschool.
Now our programs are 60 daynotice to cancel, so you can
cancel at any time.
(11:28):
It's not a hard and fastcontract.
I just want 60 days notice ifyou're going to stop this at any
time and so forth.
In my opinion, I am seeing theconsumer base a lot less to
making a what Commitment andit's not a commitment based
society.
What I want them to do is fallin love and they go.
(11:50):
I'm going to do this to BlackBelt.
That really is kind of like myincentive to get them.
I used to do the six monthupgrade, the Black Belt Club.
It was a higher dollar amountand so forth.
I still have friends that usethat model.
If that's working for you, thendo it.
But for me, from a salesstandpoint, it's just very easy
for my prospects to just followthis little sales ladder and
(12:13):
getting involved in our program.
Included in all of this programand for what I do is that I
offer a free one-month programto a parent and if they make a
six-month commitment in payingupfront for their membership, I
will also include a 90 daymembership for the parents.
So it's half of what theycommit to and so forth.
(12:34):
Anyway, that's what we do.
I do it in six months and 12months increments.
If they do want to pay in full,there is a little bit of a
discount it's a 10% discount todo, but I don't live and die
with people paying in full forour programs.
If they want to do monthly,they can do monthly as a part of
developing their memberships inour academy.
Jimmy Hong (12:52):
There's two school of thoughts regarding the pay in
fulls.
So you have just steadfastschool owners.
Listen, the pay in fullswhether you're collecting 12
months or 36 months in front isjust creates so much revenue for
that month.
Instead of getting $180 a month, you're going to get $6,000 to
(13:13):
$8,000 a month just from onestudent.
If you just multiply that bythree students, you're already
looking at $18,000 a month ontop of whatever your monthly
revenues incur.
Versus the other school ofthought is don't do painfuls.
Get everybody into monthlies,get everybody into.
Make sure your monthly revenuescome in and that's steady and
(13:34):
that's consistent.
But the pay in fulls, the payin full.
School owners are listen, thebest way to keep retention is
having those families andparents pay in full.
After they pay in full, even ifthey cancel.
They can't because what do theydo?
They're already paying full.
They're committed, just howyou're committed to them.
So there are pros and cons interms of the paying fulls versus
(13:58):
monthly.
How you run your school and howyou want to collect is
ultimately up to you.
Master Chan and I, we've doneboth ways.
Master Chan is actually.
He's done paying fulls too sowell that his monthly revenues
was just off the charts.
But yeah, master Chan, I'msorry.
Chan Lee (14:16):
going back to you, yeah, bottom line, here's your
formula for pay in fulls.
If you're not getting any newstudents, you shouldn't be doing
paid in fulls.
You're going to kill yourbusiness.
It's just not the rightstrategy.
But if you're let's just use I'dlike to use 10 as a benchmark.
If you're getting 10 newstudents a month and let's use
simple numbers you're doing ahundred dollars a month.
(14:38):
So 10 new students, a hundreddollars a month, that's a
thousand bucks a month.
And then the following month ifyou can use a spreadsheet and
do this you get another 10 newstudents.
Then they're paying a100 amonth and nine a month revenue
went up to $2,000 a month.
However, if I let's just use20% two people, if I go well
(14:58):
here if you pay in full for ayear, I'll give you a $200
discount.
So you get two months for free.
Just pay me $1,000.
Now that's the discount to dopaid in full amount.
If you had a fake academy herein this scenario.
So then you're getting $2,000,plus you're getting the $800.
(15:19):
So I'm making $2,800 comparedto the thousand that you made.
I'm up what?
1,800 bucks.
All right, and so if I keepdoing that every month, at the
end of the year you're going tohave had made $21,000 more than
you, right?
(15:40):
I go to my CPA and I go I'vemade $21,000 more than what
you've made over the year.
I said it's a good, it's adecent strategy.
It's not you should.
I'm looking, you're looking.
You're talking to a guy thatused to do 90% paid in fulls.
Everybody paid in full for amembership.
I had very little monthlyrevenue in my early days.
That's just the way I wastrained, that's what I thought
the industry was like.
(16:00):
And now I advocate 10 to 20%paid in fulls, possibly going to
30 around the holiday times oryou've just had a huge amount of
people just paid 20, 30 peopledoing monthly.
So that is my opinion.
It is not law, but it'ssomething for you guys to
consider as a way to make somerevenue and so forth.
(16:21):
But whole point of this ismarketing and sales making sure
you know how many leadgenerating events that you need
to make for your academy.
Just to recap real quick thenhow many of those convert to
sales, how many of those trialsturn into actual paying members?
And then there's another numberis what percent of those people
(16:42):
are you paying full or not orare you just doing all a monthly
model?
Then you can extrapolate what,projecting what your yearly
income is going to be.
You're a school owner.
Don't say that You're a businessowner.
Let's just say that you need toproject what your revenues are
going to be and where you'regoing to go, and marketing and
(17:03):
sales is a huge part of that.
So if you, once again I saidthis in the last podcast if you
don't know where you are, thenyou don't know where you're
going to be headed.
So you've got to get thesenumbers down and so forth and,
once again, marketing and salesis a huge part of that important
part of going to where you wantto be as an organization.
And, once again, I think MasterJimmy Hong knows I know a lot
(17:28):
of people in this industry and Iam not comfortable disclosing
who they are because I haven'tgotten their permission to say
who they are.
Jimmy Hong (17:35):
Don't worry, I'll disclose them on the show notes.
Chan Lee (17:39):
Go ahead and then you're going to get all this
vitriol online.
But you know someone that in aone-year period they built a
active school with 400 members.
I kid you not, they're aphenomena.
And I say stuff like thatbecause I want to inspire you to
think, oh, this can be done.
You just got to know yournumbers and you know what you
(18:00):
got to know what activities yougot to do, and if you do that
and you are a hundred percentdecided in doing that, you can
make it happen like big time.
But if you don't know what todo, then this is you're swimming
without a goal.
You're trying to get to theother end of the pool without
really knowing how to do it.
Jimmy Hong (18:16):
So let's go into the specifics of this, the details
of this paid in fulls.
You don't want to.
If you're thinking of doing paidin fulls or you're not
successful in paid in fulls, aword of advice is that don't hit
up your new brand, newcustomers and option of oh hey,
(18:36):
here is the monthly and here'sthe paid in fulls.
Let's do the pay in fulls.
Have them join your martialarts school and your classes,
first for the first couple ofmonths.
Have them build that rapportwith you and then within a few
months, they're going to havethis trust and they know that
you're going to be a master,you're going to be a mentor for
their kids, for the families,and that you're part of this
(18:59):
quality of community in yourcommunity, in your neighborhood.
So then they're more open andsusceptible to be hey, you know
what I just want to commit, Iwant to have the discount, and
then they'll be more susceptibleto your pay in fulls instead of
trying to give them so manyoptions when they have met you.
They don't know you and thenthey have to decide whether to
do the monthly pay-in-fulls ornot join at all.
(19:22):
That is one very importanttopic and aspect of how to do
paid-in-fulls successfully ifyou want to take that route.
Chan Lee (19:32):
I call that TMI, which is like you go, we have this
option, we have that option, wego, we get this.
So once again, let's gobackwards here.
If you look in the minds of thecustomer, I want them to go.
Yeah, see, if you like it, tryit for free for the first week.
All right, I want you to buy$59 for a month and let's see
how your child reacts after amonth.
Then, after they pay the $59,after two or three weeks, I go
(19:54):
listen, if I did a good job inthe classroom, I want them to
love it.
Then I'll go give them amonthly option Once again.
Let's just keep the numbersimple.
It's 100 bucks a month.
So they're paying 100 bucks amonth and then, after they
decide that they're gonna dowith 100 bucks a month, I give
them an option.
I go if you make a six monthcommitment, right, or a 12 month
commitment, I will give you apercentage off of that.
(20:16):
I'll give you 50 bucks off thetuition.
Or if you do the 12 months,I'll give you $200.
I'll give you two months forfree, and I don't always offer
that.
If we did too many paid infulls that month I will not make
, we won't do it.
But then you have that optionAfter they've said yes.
So don't give them the paid infull option until they've
decided that they want to makethe $100 a month option, because
(20:37):
then they're thinking do I dothis?
Just let them get the yes first.
Get the first yes and then youhave two other ways of getting
the paid in full.
And you got to think of how youbake a cake or how you make a
dish.
You don't throw the eggs intothe flour after you throw the
cake into the oven.
There's a system You've got toput the eggs in a little earlier
(20:58):
or whatever.
Same thing If you hit someoneup after they've met you for an
hour and then you go, hey, mymembership's a hundred bucks a
month.
I tell them that's not.
You got to make a one yearcommitment or a three year
commitment or whatever.
It's not the mindset of thecurrent customer and the
customer base as they're doingit and Master Hong just did this
perfectly and the customer baseas they're doing it, and Master
(21:20):
Hong just did this perfectly.
If you look at the salesparadigm and you go, okay, what
generates sales?
And you look at that, thebiggest thing is trust and
rapport.
People have to trust you andthey have to have a good rapport
with you If they like you thatthis is kind of an old school
idea If they like you, they'llmake a decision to buy with you.
If they don't like you or yousend them the wrong vibe,
(21:43):
they're not going to do it.
Have you ever bought anythingfrom someone that you hate or
you didn't like or seemed shadyto you?
You didn't, you just kind oftook your business somewhere
else.
And so super important that youguys are understanding that you
got to build this trust andrapport and then you got to
identify the need of thecustomer.
Why are they there for?
And if you look at that, there'sonly two reasons why people
(22:07):
bring their kids in the classmake sure the kid is loud.
He's, he kiaps loud, kicks,punches, raises his hand in your
class eventually.
That is one aspect.
The second aspect of this isthat you also want to make sure
(22:31):
the second kid that comes inneeds discipline.
The kid's bouncing off thewalls and doing crazy, stand at
attention straight, look me inthe eye and then, be sure, when
you say look me in the eye, youdo it with an Asian accent.
So you go oh, it's a rook eye.
I'm just kidding, don't do that.
You rook eye and pre's the shitdown and you fuckus, you, shit
(22:55):
you.
But anyway, don't do that OldTaekwondo joke there.
Make sure that the kid isfocused, he's listening to
directions and he's able tofollow.
And so your instructor in yourintro class has got to these
trial classes have to followthat that's.
Another aspect of this is thatdo you have enough people
helping you out?
And make sure you can have thatIf you have a leadership team.
(23:20):
When I first started my martialarts school or I was growing
our organization, we didn't havea lot of paid staff, so we had
a leadership team and theleadership team are your high
level black belts with greatattitudes, not just black belts,
someone with a.
I have a lady that's a greenbelt at one of my locations.
She works at a church.
(23:40):
She's the marketing directorfor a really big church and she
has a pleasant disposition abouther.
She's very polite and nice andkind and so forth, and the
reason I'm telling you this isthat she helps me with all my
new white belts and the moms andhey, stand over here, buddy.
And she does warmups with themand she's not even paid staff so
(24:01):
you can find people that helpyou.
They don't have to be a blackbelt, they're just nice people
and can they help beginners.
She holds targets for them andhigh fives them and so forth.
So anyway, that's a wholenother topic for a different day
.
But make sure your beginnertrial classes are staffed
(24:22):
correctly, with the right amountof people so they all have a
great experience.
If one of your red belts breaka toe in class, if they kick the
target and they broke a toe,they'll probably tape it up and
be back at your Taekwondo school, you know, the next day, or
they finish out class.
They're just.
That's the way that you'vetrained them.
You have a white belt thatbreaks their toe.
On the third day they kick atarget wrong or something.
They're never coming back.
They're like man, the third dayI broke my toe.
(24:44):
Man, by the fifth day I mightbreak a neck.
So you got to make sure thatevery one of those classes are
over the top great.
It's an incredible, fantasticexperience and that's your goal.
Script it out.
It's one of those things Irecommend is just make sure you
have something.
That's fun and so forth.
But once again, we'll talkabout more of these in detail I
(25:05):
don't want to make these toolong and so forth.
Jimmy Hong (25:07):
Well, it sounds like you have a two intro system,
like a week intro system andthen a month after that before
they join into your program.
Is that correct?
Correct?
Chan Lee (25:18):
Correct.
That is absolutely correct,because I got a lot of rid of
our sales systems in terms of Iused to be the one intro signup
guy.
You did one intro and usuallyyou committed to 36 months One.
That's how good I am Sorry.
Anyway, it's a common theme.
You guys are going to hear thatwe're so sick of him, hearing
him brag about how awesome he is, but anyway, the and I just it
(25:42):
wasn't recreatable and it wasone of those things where I said
, okay, this is not just, it'snot an easy system.
So, to be honest with you andonce again, I can talk about
this in other podcasts in moredetail but I have 14, 15 and 16
year old kids running my firstintros.
They do the 15 minute intro andthen they bring them into class
and then they just try it andthen I want them to turn them
(26:04):
into paying customers and soforth.
So this is what we do in ourorganization.
I don't know if it works for you, but it works for us.
And if I'm creating these superconfident, awesome black belts,
then I want them to see theproduct which is my black belts.
They're the ones helping me outwith the beginners and so forth
(26:25):
.
So that's my sales system in anutshell and what we do, but I
just want to give generalitieswith making sure marketing and
sales as you grow yourorganization and I talked about
this in the live podcast there'sa lot of kids.
There's not enough kids doingmartial arts and they need us
right now.
Jimmy Hong (26:38):
They need the type of inspiration that martial arts
has given you, that they needthat to be better kids and so
forth so that's a great pointyou make there, master chan is
because, like the, yes, you cansell the three-year program,
(26:59):
one-year program, what thetwo-year program?
But you can't replicate thatand you can't have all your
staff do it.
So, to compensate, make yourprogram as easy, as enrolled as
possible so your staff canenroll everybody that walks
through your door and you're notthe bottleneck to increasing
(27:20):
your students and your school.
Would that be accurate, masterChan?
Yeah, 100%, 100%, so thateverybody, every school, has
different programs andenrollment systems.
But just keep that in mindwhile you're fine-tuning and
adjusting to your school howeasy, how quick you want that
(27:40):
enrollment process to be.
You want, master Chan's, twotypes of trials that's just
really easy to walk through andthen just super easy to enroll.
You want to do a one class,one-on-one, get their full,
divided attention, motivate andthen get them enrolled.
That's ultimately up to you.
But knowing that you havedifferent options out there and
(28:04):
you want to try both One month,do one way, another month, do
another way Check out yournumbers and see what is more
effective.
There's no right or wrong wayto do this, it's just what is it
going to take to get yourschool to that next level and
successfully in terms of profitsand revenues.
That will conclude our today'sepisode Number two.
(28:27):
I want to thank Master Chan, asalways.
We look forward to our nextepisode next week.
We're going to have a greattopic for you.
I'll see you guys, everybody,master Chan, any final thoughts?
Chan Lee (28:41):
You guys keep changing the world.
Every day you're out there, youguys get that email or the note
from the parent about how theirkid has changed and became
better human beings because ofit.
Use that as your fuel andinspiration to do what you do.
So the world needs us.
Let's go.
Jimmy Hong (28:58):
Have a great week, guys.
Lots of success to your schools.
See you guys next week.
Bye.
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