May 27, 2025 • 44 mins
ASA Martial Arts Business Summit 2025
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"Too much month, not enough money?" This might be the reality for many small martial arts school owners, but Master Tony Chung proves it doesn't have to be. In this eye-opening conversation, Tony shares how he generates over $2 million annually with multiple locations that are all under 2,000 square feet - a stark contrast to the 7,000-12,000 square foot "mega-schools" often showcased as the industry standard.
With average class sizes of only 8-10 students and a curriculum designed for quality over all else, Tony has created a system where martial arts excellence drives financial success rather than marketing tricks or sales tactics. His closing ratio remains deliberately modest at 30-40%, because as he puts it, "We're not for everyone." Yet this approach supports eight full-time employees, 30-36 part-timers, and provides benefits.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
In our fifth episode, we will find out if small
schools can generate mega schoolprofits.
Welcome to Black Belt Banterthe best podcast to help your
Marshall School increase profitsand generate substantial
revenue.
I'm Jimmy Hong and my co-hostis Master Tony Chung.
Master Tony is an accomplishedschool owner generating over $2
(00:24):
million annually with multiplelocations.
He also works in the film andtelevision industry as an actor,
stunt double and fight trainer.
His more recent works includeCobra, kai, will Trent, the
Tulsa King, the Naked Gun Movieand so many more.
Master Tony, welcome, and I'mjust so excited to discuss this
(00:47):
topic with you today becausethis topic can small school
owners generate mega schoolrevenues and profits.
I think it can resonate with alot of our listeners, myself
included.
Is this possible?
What say you, master Tony?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Hi, thanks for having me.
I appreciate being here.
Thank you to you and MasterChan Lee for just providing the
time.
I've been running schools.
I'm 46 now.
I've been running a locationunder my father since I was 16.
And then I've run my ownlocation since I was 18 and made
all the mistakes that you couldpossibly imagine and there's a
(01:28):
lot of different models that canwork in business.
And I remember specifically Ithink I was 29.
I thought the day I was goingto get the key and then my dad's
like, go make your own boy.
And I was like, excuse me.
My dad's like, yeah, this is mydojo, Go make your own.
And then started my journey.
So, flash forward.
I ended up in Atlanta, Georgia,after bouncing around for quite
(01:53):
a few years, about 15 years ago,and I didn't have any money, so
I just started with a verysmall school.
Even to this day, my schools arearound 2000 square feet Um, and
just focusing on metrics andjust figuring it out as I go
along and I'm just trying to, Idon't know exactly how many
martial arts schools are in thecountry.
This, the theory is thatthere's anywhere between 30 to
(02:15):
50,000, but I don't know if thatincludes kickboxing gyms, or
even boxing gyms and wrestlingacademies, but maybe I don't
know at least brick and mortarmartial art schools to the
effect of what we would knowlike taekwondo, jujitsu,
taekwondo karate.
There's got to be at least25,000.
That's a good.
I guess that would be anaverage of 500.
(02:36):
Is my math right?
25,000.
Hold on, I got to use mycalculator here.
25,000 divided by 50 states,yeah, that's about 500 schools a
state on average.
I think in Georgia there'sabout 650, maybe even more, just
in the greater Atlanta area.
So when I came here it was justwhat I could afford.
So I just want you to know thatI've had the riches to rag
(02:57):
story.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Well, your story is fascinating, Master Tony,
because, yes, we were similar inthat we were that 1.5
generation where our master wasa grandmaster, coming out,
immigrated, trying to provide abetter life for us, but my
father had to.
After college, I didn't wantanything to do with the
Taekwondo Dojang.
My father had to persuade me,force me, whatever the word it
(03:20):
is and I finally got into it.
And then, once I got into it, Iwas like, oh, I can make a
career out of this.
I can like this is fun in theclassroom, but not only that.
I can make revenues that I'maccustomed to and that I want to
do with my aspirations.
But your story that's where ourstory changes.
(03:40):
A lot of my friends they havethat similar story as me that
was passed down from theirfathers.
But you and what I love aboutyou, master Tony, is that you
didn't have that.
You had to start on your own,basically with no funds, no
initial money to start, andwithout the help of support from
(04:01):
your father and family.
And you went out and you did iton your own and came this way,
which is much better than therest of us.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Thank you for that.
But everything is by accident,it's by the grace of just
fortune and favor, and I'mhonored to be here to try to
motivate some of you, even ifit's one person that's listening
to this podcast, when we satdown and we talked about putting
this podcast together.
It's a lot of work, everybody'sreally busy.
But we kept circling back towhy.
(04:31):
And it's just, we all feel verylucky and fortunate to be
friends in the industry,changing lives and ours in the
process.
And I think there's a lot ofsmall schools out there that
kind of understand that it's toomuch month, not enough money,
and you keep seeing all of theseads or talks or this or that,
(04:52):
and when everybody seems to havea secret bullet or some kind of
crazy thing.
So when I finally got set up inGeorgia, I had a 16, I think it
was 1200 square feet Cause Imeasured it from the inside.
I don't know about you guys,but the landlord will tell you
it's 1600 square feet Cause Imeasured it from the inside.
I don't know about you guys,but the landlord will tell you
it's 1600 square feet.
I didn't almost touch the wallon each side, are you sure?
And you measure it.
(05:12):
And then I'm like dude, this is1200 square feet and change,
this is not 1600.
And they measure from the outerwalls to all the tenants on
each side.
Measure from the outer wallsbecause there's enough margin
that we're paying.
We got to be paying more.
It should cover cam, but it'sjust too much month, not enough
money and for me wait, wait.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
What do you mean by that?
Too much month?
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I have so many bills to pay and I have so much stuff
to do and I just don't haveenough money to get to the end
of the month.
Sometimes there's the monthgoes so fast.
The first is coming again andrents do.
But I'm talking about whenthere's too much month, not
enough money.
There's that you want to market.
You know you want to do this,but you're teaching, you're
cleaning.
I read something recently thatresonated with me.
There's nothing original, bythe way.
There's no original ideas.
(05:59):
There's just things that youhaven't heard of recently.
You've probably heard ofeverything by now, probably too
much.
I heard something recently aboutfour things for success and
these are the components.
Right, there are other factors,but if you had to lean it to
four things, there are four mainingredients to a successful
business, and the first one isand they're not in any
(06:22):
particular order, but the firstone is artist or creator.
So you have to be somebody thatis, you're good at it.
You're the guy or the lady.
You're the artist or thecreator in your field.
It could be a painter, it couldbe a gymnast, it could be a
martial arts school teacher,operator, or you're the
(06:45):
technician.
So that's a little differentthan design.
So when I was at Macho, I wasthe spokesman, but I was also
eventually I became the head ofthe R&D department.
So, on one thing, somebodycould have the idea or the
vision of the direction of thecompany and then you need an
operator or a technician toactually go design the parts, or
the helmet, or the red man gearor the strapping system that
attaches the equipment.
And then the third component isowner of the business.
(07:07):
Okay, because as an owner it'sreally about liabilities and tax
implications and managingpayroll and or just paying the
bills, just getting your licensedone, getting the proper
insurance, making sure that youhave more gross, reasonable
expenditures and hopefully somenet.
And then the fourth componentis what we call the board.
(07:28):
The board is your investorbecause you need money.
And I used to think there wasthree things.
I used to think it was you haveto be a technician, you have to
be a manager and then you haveto be an entrepreneur.
But I like the four strategybecause an entrepreneur may have
the good idea for a marketopportunity, but they don't have
the cash.
So I like that fourth thing ofhaving a board because the
(07:50):
reality is you need money, youneed capital.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So I know a lot of players in the industry and all
the successful high incomeearners.
Their setup is this megaschools, seven to 12,000 square
foot locations maybe not justone, but multiple locations, and
when you think of successfulschools, those were all the
(08:13):
types that you see visibly outthere.
But your setup is so uniquebecause you're averaging, your
schools are averaging, you don'thave anything over 2,000 square
foot and you're making bignumbers just like them and I
didn't want to say this in thetitle because this is this thing
that's blowing my mind but youdon't believe in cashing out.
(08:36):
So you are getting theserevenues monthly, big mega
school revenues operating insmall school locations, without
cash outs.
I didn't know that was possible.
And yet you're doing it day byday, month by month, year by
year.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Whatever your model is, some people use the metrics.
So when I was finally set up atthe 1600 square foot actually
1200 square foot school, you getgoing.
Nobody came.
I'm just sitting there.
It's like you work really hardand you get all your stuff
together to go fishing, youfinally get the lines in the
water and then you're justsitting there and you're not
(09:15):
even catching a good time.
Why do I do this?
This is crazy.
And do I go outside in myuniform and wave at people?
As sad as that sounds?
What do I do?
I'm by myself.
What do I do?
I'm there literally nine in themorning to nine at night, and
so I just started using my head.
(09:35):
So I got paper out.
I'm old fashioned, I like to usepaper and pencil.
I try to isolate myself, try tostay off your smartphone.
You try to stay off yourcomputer, and I just sat there
in silence with paper and pen,just a lot of pads of paper.
So I try to create all thesemetrics and I wanted to build
this financial business machine.
(09:57):
That made sense and I startedwith the end in mind.
I think that's Stephen Coveyyou begin with the end in mind
and I said if I had a thousandstudents and that was the number
if I had a thousand studentsand I worked backwards and just
so you know, right now we haveabout 1300 members between all
of our locations and oursatellite programs.
I just signed certificates forthe black belt testing and we
(10:19):
started with Don, number one,and then I signed Don's
certificate, number 507 today.
So in 15 years I do havesystems Going back.
I have this paper.
I said if I had a thousandstudents, how would I teach them
?
We watch shows like my LotteryDream Home and you hear about
these lottery stories.
What would you do if you won it?
(10:40):
That's why most of the peoplethat win the lottery, as we all
know, lose it because theydidn't have the skills to get it
.
So even if you were giftedmoney, even if you were gifted
students, even if you weregifted stellar staff, a big,
gigantic building in a greatlocation, would you know how to
manage it?
And I didn't know that becauseI never had a thousand students.
(11:01):
My father never had a thousandstudents, and so I just sat down
with paper and I figured outall these metrics and I came
down to a couple of Keystonemetrics that are very common in
the industry.
Now, how many students are youadding a month, your addition, I
guess the second one from therewould be your churn or your
attrition, the number ofstudents you lose, which is
(11:23):
usually a percentage To me it'sa number of how many students
you're adding.
It's a percentage of how manystudents you lose over time,
right?
And then the third one would beyour average student value.
So if you do cash, if you haveupgrade programs, if you're just
monthly recurring revenue witha 30-day cancel, or you have no
contracts and my first schoolpeople just drop an envelope of
(11:46):
$75 and literally less than 50%of my students paid tuition no,
I'm sorry, it was $50 a monthand $75 for an entire family,
unlimited.
And whatever your model is, youtake your gross revenues for
the month, you divide by thenumber of students that are
training in that month and thatyou get your average student
value, which is the third metric.
The fourth metric is your gross.
(12:07):
Your gross is affected by allof the profit centers your
enrollment profit centers,upgrade, if you have that, your
equipment group, your eventsgroup, which includes testing,
seminars, tournaments, any kindof event that you would do
parents' night out, birthdayparties and then your fifth
profit center would be, in myopinion, your monthly recurring
(12:29):
revenues, your tuition that'scoming every month by way of
your billing company or if theyjust pay you on Stripe.
And then your sixth one ismiscellaneous.
If you have any satelliteprograms, are you doing any
things that are justmiscellaneous?
And then you add those sixprofit centers together.
That's your gross.
And then you line item yourexpenditures, your rent, your
utilities, your insurances.
(12:50):
If you have payroll, yourpayroll.
My payroll fluctuates between70 and 80,000 a month.
Just to give you an idea.
It sounds great.
And when things are good justto give you an idea, it sounds
great.
And when things are good.
Business owners, we all knowthat we get paid last.
We may get paid best, but weget paid last and in the bad
months.
For those that get to a level,I'm nobody.
I have done okay for myself,but not to say anything.
(13:14):
But my quick little plug is becareful with whom you yield
advice that affects your life.
Be very careful who you getadvice from.
What are you?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
going to do.
You know what I mean.
I can vouch for you because Isaw your operations and I saw
the size of your schools and youare extremely successful.
Master Tony is being verymodest here, but my question is
to get that high revenue, highincome?
I know your monthly membershipcost is not small.
(13:47):
It's one of the highest in yourneighborhood area and that is
how he's able to generate.
Isn't there a student limit onyour small space?
How can you get a lot ofstudents?
Or do you even have a lot ofstudents because you only have a
2,000 square foot locations?
How is that able to fill?
And doesn't that limit you ongetting past a certain student
(14:08):
number?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah.
So just to work backwards, mymodel that I built out, I wanted
to have about 240 maximum, 250,I think, was the number of
maximum students at a location.
So when I had that idea, if Ihad, if I was gifted a thousand
people, my dad was a militaryinstructor in Korea.
Tony, you need to teach thesethousand soldiers and they need
(14:29):
to be competent to a certainlevel and you have 10 years to
do it.
How would you do it?
So I didn't know how to do it,so I sat down and I'd say I'd
have to have this many masters,I'd have to have this many
classes, I'd have to have sixlevels of training.
I did it five days a week andit evolved.
But basically, what ishappening today at the academies
(14:52):
, at my schools now is what Icame up with 15 years ago, and
the concept was I wanted theaverage location to maintain
between 200 and 250 studentswith an average student value of
$200 plus.
And that has changed, obviouslypost COVID.
But to give you some crazyglimpses up to red belt at our
(15:12):
academy, you can only go once aweek.
Twice a week is not an option.
And then, once you get your redbelt, then you can go twice a
week.
So instead of doing eight beltsto red, we did 16 belts.
I wanted it to take for ourtigers that were joining at
three, four years old.
I didn't want them to betesting in four years for black
belt or so, because that justdoesn't look good and when you
(15:34):
scale when you're teaching, it'shard to replicate.
My wife can Wait, wait.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
So wait, the students come.
The beginners intermediates areallowed to only come maximum of
one class per week.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yes, so there's multiple reasons.
I did that so early.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
That's You're blowing my mind right now.
Master Tony, One class a week.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
One class a week.
We instituted that 10 years ago, going on 11 years ago, and
there's multiple reasons forthat.
I wanted to increase revenuesbecause I wanted to pay my staff
properly and our revenues haveto increase in order.
Our profit has to increase inorder to do that, but it was
better for the student.
I always start with what's bestfor the student and, in my
opinion, getting your black beltin three years to four years
(16:20):
for an adult is fine.
For some kids it's okay.
For some kids that are learningfrom some of my instructors
that trained under some of mymasters on their worst teaching
day absolutely unacceptable.
I do live graded testing.
I wanted to create a systemthat can teach a thousand people
.
So I have eight full-timeemployees to 10.
(16:42):
It fluctuates depending on somepeople move on, some people
stay, some people have to firepeople and then so it's between
eight and 10.
We only need eight, but if wewere opening more locations, you
need to have some of thepipeline, and they have 30 to 36
part-timers.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And then we have all.
This is all your locationstogether, not not one, obviously
not one location.
This is all together, so we'reone academy with many locations
to serve but um well, just goingover the numbers, I mean your
goal of 250 active student countand you're charging the highest
in terms of tuition membershipin your area, which is over 250
(17:21):
per month.
I mean you're looking at 250 amonth.
At 250 active students, that's62,500.
You're looking at monthly andthat's just tuition.
That's not including your otherfive aspects of revenue.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
That's just tuition.
That's not including your otherfive aspects of revenue.
It's actually not quite thatgreat on average, but we're
always in the pocket.
My worst location has alwaysdone over 400.
And then I have locations thatpush success.
But going backwards, when I hada 1200 square foot school and I
made this plan, I was brokeanyway and I had no time.
(18:00):
I had no students, I had allthe time in the world.
I better create a plan.
And then I created this plan,very intricate, not only a sales
process, not only you have tohave the curriculum, you have to
.
You remember the old Wendy'scommercial where's the beef?
And and I wanted to finish mypoint from before and I know I'm
scatterbrained, so just ifyou're listening to this, this
(18:20):
guy's a mess.
He talks all over the place.
Yeah, and I made it.
It's crazy and I like to usewhat I call my success compass.
So I have a metrics.
I use an Excel spreadsheet.
Don't use any software.
Not that I'm talking bad aboutsoftware, I'm trying to learn
how to use some of thesesoftwares but I literally use
Excel spreadsheets.
We use QuickBooks for our pointof sale.
(18:41):
When you create a plan, you haveto know what to do with it.
You have to execute the plan,you have to deploy the plan and
then you have to have thepricing to allow you to pay
everybody and pay the bills andhave enough left over and build
a war chest so you could survivehard times, because overhead is
over $100,000.
I don't even remember the lasttime my overhead was under
(19:02):
$100,000 in a month before youmake a penny.
And I remember the first timewe broke $100,000 as a gross and
I was like whoa, we went outand ate Korean barbecue with the
instructors and we'rehigh-fiving and we're like, wow,
we did it Great.
And then it's been decadessince the expenses were under
$100,000.
But it's all relative, just soyou know.
And with the macroeconomiceconomy, whatever you look at it
(19:27):
, it's a tough economy.
It's going to continue to be atough economy.
I think that you need to getreally good with your numbers.
I think you need to be veryconservative with your
expenditures.
I think you need to be lean andmean.
I think that some of you wantto have instructors, but you
need to be lean and mean.
I think that some of you wantto have instructors, but you
need to fire almost all of theinstructors that you have
because they're probably notadequate.
(19:47):
So you need to teach you.
You either need to becomebetter yourself, train them to
be better, develop the pipelineand have a long-term vision
right.
I struggled for the first fiveyears, from creating that plan
on month one.
I struggled.
It was very difficult and itwas very hard.
(20:09):
So I just want you to know itwas a riches to rags story and I
was able to be blessed andfortunate and have enough favor
to just fall on my back and justuse my math just paper pencil
calculator.
And when one student finallywalked in the door, I taught my
butt off.
You can't keep them all, butyou just want to.
(20:31):
Just, instead of changing theworld, which was always my dream
, I said I'm going to changesomeone's world.
I'm going to focus on quality.
I'm going to over-deliver.
I'm going to make sure that,even though I have a contract,
I'm going to make sure that I'monly as good as my last class.
I could die after this lastclass that I teach and I'm good.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I was just going to ask you how do you I think you
just answered how do youconvince parents to pay your
highest tuition in all of thearea compared to your
competitors?
And that seems like that's theanswer right there.
Once they see the value of whatthey're getting, they're
(21:12):
willing to pay for the highestquality instructions.
Is that?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, yeah.
So I've seen systems wherepeople are okay, we do step one,
we do this and we email them,we do an evaluation, we do this,
we create the benefit.
The benefit has to minus thecost equals the value.
That's all great, but at theend of the day you may be not
qualified for the job thatyou're asked to do, but you know
(21:40):
that it's a hard job and nobodyelse could do that job.
And I'm going to look at thatboss, I'm going to look at that
client, I'm going to look atthat parent and I'm going to say
I am going to do my very bestand you have my word.
Will you shake my hand?
I will teach my ass off foryour kid and I will try to drive
you so much value.
And it's great to advertise,it's great to have nice
(22:00):
paperwork and fancy littlepresentations.
Sometimes you know what makesCobra Kai.
It's not the stuff on the walls, it's not the logo, it was
Johnny Lawrence.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
You know what I mean that show was fascinating, by
the way, yeah, because we all inour generation, we all grew up
with I'll grew up with KarateKid, and that movie
single-handedly turned my dad'sschool's trajectory around.
I mean, after that movie opened, yeah, I remember going to the
Karate Kid.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
The only movie my dad ever took us to was the Karate
Kid and it was awesome.
I got to bring my dad to theKarate Kid, to the Cobra Kai set
.
He got to be on the show and mydad wanted to go to the movies
to see what all the fuss wasabout, because all these people
started joining the school.
And it's funny I was talking tosomebody a couple weeks ago.
Do you think this?
Do you think that?
And I'm like are you insane?
(22:48):
You know that this is thegolden years for the martial
arts.
Maybe 10 years ago, because Iwas confused and I hadn't really
gotten my stride, man, itmust've been nice to be back in
the 80s.
That's how you think.
Back in the 90s, people weren'teven that good and they have
hundreds of students, dude, noway.
If you've seen what I see, ifyou go see some of these school
(23:10):
owners that are really gettingit and they're not on social
media, you know who the heck has.
They're too busy getting it.
You know what I'm talking about.
For example, grandmaster ChanLee.
I am nothing, I am literally anant, and he is the king of the
forest, but he's very humble,awesome.
That's why I follow him.
(23:32):
That's why he's the presidentof a sock is.
He's the man and it was evidentif you heard the first few
episodes of the podcast.
He's the man.
And at the end of the day, if aparent walks in and they talk
to Grandmaster Chan Lee, they'regoing to sign up because
they're not just looking formartial arts.
People are looking for something.
Especially in times like this,people are lost.
(23:52):
People are driving up and down,clocking in, clocking out,
worried about their kids Anyparent I have four kids clocking
in, clocking out, worried abouttheir kids.
Any parent I have four kidsYou're only as happy as your
least happy kid.
I will sell my house and mykidney and anything in between
for my kid to be happy andsuccessful.
And if you have a martial artsschool, if your instructor looks
(24:15):
like a badass and is teaching apowerful class and is humble
and is teaching a powerful classand is humble and it's just it
feels like a mixture of JohnnyLawrence and Mr Miyagi that's
worth everything and you shouldcharge a fair price.
Please don't think that I wantyou to figure out all these
metrics and techniques to chargethe most amount of money Like
just so you guys know I drive aKia.
(24:36):
Okay, my wife drives a Kia.
My last car was a Hyundai andit had 200,000 miles on it.
I my goal is not to accumulatea Lambo, or I'm not trying to
talk bad about other people inthe industry.
I congratulate them on theirsuccess.
But to me, to me, to me it'sgrand grandmaster John Lee.
(24:57):
I don't want to put him on onblast, but there's people like
him that are amazing and theyuse their money for charities.
They're making a difference?
It's not, and if you're outthere, I want you to know that
you do not have to sell yourmartial soul in order to make a
(25:17):
dollar, but you have to getbetter.
You have to be martially better, you have to be a better
teacher and you have to be ableto verbalize that, and you have
to have a little bit of capital.
You have to have managementskills and if you don't have it,
hang around people that do.
Most of the best advice I evergot came from people like
(25:41):
Grandmaster Chonley.
Never charged me for it Ifsomebody's charging you for it.
I believe in coaches, I believein this and that, but there's
no magic pill.
There is no secret AI, this orthat.
All of those things are tools.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
And if you strip all of that sales marketing, all of
that stuff because I'm horribleat sales and marketing- which is
so fascinating, on how yourstudent active count with that
small location with highgrossing revenues and you don't
market and sales like the megaschools, which is just
fascinating.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I don't have any program directors.
Everybody is a master or ahigh-level instructor and they
all teach.
And it's just any programdirectors.
Everybody is a master or a highlevel instructor and they all
teach and it's just slow andsteady.
It's a Keystone metric of yourbilling check.
It's charging a fair price,it's learning to say no.
Some client that is asking forABC one, two, three, our closing
, just so you guys know, ourclosing ratio at our schools is
(26:37):
30 to 40% depending on thelocation and the season.
So I know some schools Wait,wait.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
What is closing rate on what?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
30 to 40%.
If 10 people come in, three orfour of them will sign up.
We're not for everyone.
There are 650 martial artsschools, and the market is
plenty big.
I talk to almost every schoolowner I can.
I saw one school owner atCostco the other day and just
saying hi, because he had aCobra Kai shirt on and he
recognized me and recognized Iwas like oh, that's awesome,
(27:05):
love to have lunch with you.
I talked to every school.
We're all on the same team,like a high tide raises all
ships.
You don't have to have ascarcity mindset.
What you have to do, though, isyou've got to be a competitor,
and you don't have to be acompetitor in the ring.
I never was a national champion.
I wasn't a.
I was a decent fighter, but youdon't have to be all that, but
(27:27):
you have to train.
You don't even have to createchampions.
You just have to help peopleprogress, and it's not the
kicking and the punching it'sabout you need to ask and find
out and help deduce what yourclient wants and needs.
You know, and then add to thatyou have to these kids when they
test.
They have to look good.
At the end of the day, you haveto teach them and if you find
(27:51):
yourself, it doesn't matter ifyou have 60 students or 6,000
students.
If you are worried that yourtesting is a demonstration of
value and you're worried thatpeople are going to quit, you
have a serious problem with yourprogram, because it should be a
test, our Black Belt test.
We fail students Every test.
If a student is not ready, theyfail, or we can wait to test.
(28:14):
And I understand you want yourclosing ratios to be high.
All this, but do you want tohave a good month?
Do you want to have a good this, but do you want to have a good
month?
Do you want to have a goodseason or do you want to have a
good life?
Because I'm at a point whereI'm closer to 50 than I am to 60
.
My younger brother passed awaya couple years ago almost, and
I've realized that life is veryshort.
(28:34):
You can't take anything withyou, but what you leave behind
is your legacy.
And what is your legacy?
Is it a car?
Is it a beautiful school thatyou own the building?
I don't own any of my buildings.
I do not have a million dollarschool.
I have a million dollar payrolland you can do anything you
want.
Nothing against real estate andowning your school, but if you
(28:55):
have a small school, anything ispossible and that's why, that's
why, and I just that's.
It's what I'm adamant about.
Anything is possible, but yougot to do the work and there is
no secret.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
There is no secret that's why this, this episode,
just resonates, but I'm going toassume it's going to resonate
with majority of our owners,listeners I'm sorry because
they're in the same situation,you know, yeah, and the last
thing I'll tell you is this ifyou had a drone's eye view of
(29:30):
how close you were to successjust by changing the dial to a
different temperature orflipping a couple of switches?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
you don't need to.
You don't need.
I give up.
I'm just going to follow thisperson.
He'll tell me exactly what todo.
That does not exist.
That does not exist and I knowit's difficult.
But restaurants operate on a 5,8, sometimes 10% margin.
(30:00):
Martial arts schools if you'rea single operator owner,
operator you have 50% margins ormore.
Maybe it's less if you're notgrossing very much.
But with those margins it is soeasy to really get to
profitability right.
And yes, the economy's tough,but there are some industries,
(30:21):
like the food industry.
They're getting hammered whenfood cost is already 27, 30, 33%
of your gross.
When food costs go up, it justhammers you.
Just if you knew how close youwere and again, this message is
only for one person.
I'm good with that, just like Iwas good with one person
walking through the door and Iwas good not having a thousand
(30:43):
students.
And I had no idea that when Ipicked my head up from teaching
those classes being buried inteaching the best classes that I
can not hiding behind sloganson the wall or some marketing
tactic or this or that, justteaching my butt off in a class.
It didn't even have to be agood class, just I'm sweating,
I'm doing my best and when aparent recognizes that you're
(31:05):
doing the best for their child,they'll support you.
And all you need is to get myaverage class at all.
My schools has eight to 10students in class six days a
week, that is so low.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And with eight to 10, well, I mean it makes sense
with the smaller square footage.
But eight to 10 and you'regrossing 50, 60,000 a month.
I mean, I was a small spaceschool owner.
I'm sorry 40 to 50.
But I was a small school spaceowner and for me, to get to that
(31:42):
number, I was cashing out.
I was cashing out 30, 40% oftuition, but you're able to
achieve this without cashing out.
What is your, you know?
Why don't you cash?
Speaker 2 (31:54):
out.
I do offer paid in fullrevenues.
We just do not offer a discount.
Our current agreements are 18and 36 months.
But when they do pay in full,which is a very small percentage
those that can afford to pay infull, they value their time, so
they'll only want to commit fora year To me.
When people sign up for anagreement, for our value
proposition, there's the amountyou put down, there's the
(32:15):
monthly reoccurring revenueamount, the monthly payment, and
then there's the commitmentlength, and what we have
discovered is that I do not wantto give when.
If my business model is in thepocket of a net of 30 to 40%
somewhere in between there, if Ioffer a for every dollar that
comes into the business, if Ioffer a paid in full person 20,
(32:35):
30, I've heard people do 40, 50%discounts and they justify it
because they're like oh, myaverage student only lasts 10
months and my monthly tuition isthis, so any dollar over that,
whatever.
But for my model I'm like nopeople that pay in full, they
stay longer.
So I want it to be fair.
So if your commitment lengthgoes down, then everything else
(32:57):
has to hold.
So it's just a mixture.
So it's a bigger down paymentthan everything else has to hold
.
So it's just a mixture, so it'sa bigger down payment, but I
want to create a quality blackbelt in seven to 10 years.
I've said that there'snon-glorious things about the
business.
I don't love teaching tigers inmy schools, but we do.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I wish everybody Tigers you mean three and four
years old.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah and I wish everybody could train every day,
but that's not realistic.
So we allow people up to redbelt, up to red belt on your
track.
There's eight belts.
It takes you there's eightbelts to there's 16 belts, I'm
sorry, 16 belts to red.
And it takes you four years toget to red.
And it could take you hold on,Let me do my math.
(33:37):
I'm just double checking.
It's three month cycles, 18belts.
No, I'm sorry, 16 belts.
Three month cycles, yeah, 48months, yeah, four years.
And then it takes you at leastanother year and a half to go
from red to certified firstdegree.
And I tell people because a lotof people are like, oh, what are
you going to learn?
The red belt's not very good.
And I said your martialmaturity is like paying down
(34:00):
your mortgage.
On a 30-year mortgage you don'tpay 50% of the principal down
until year 22.
So the first four years of yourtraining is just to develop the
basics and the fundamentals.
But the last 50% of yourdevelopment, of your skill set
to black belt will be earned inthe last year and a half to two
and a half years of yourtraining.
And I like that because initialpeople that train that are
(34:24):
five-year-olds, seven-year-olds,10-year-olds, because the
majority of our students arekids and most of our teens and
adults are family add-ons thathave aged up or joined because
of their kid.
So I just focused on kids andkids need a flex schedule.
So in Georgia there's all kindsof sports.
We have pretty good weatheryear round.
(34:44):
We have all kinds of sports.
So my schools are open fivedays a week.
I have a class for every leveloffered every day and my
curriculum is a rotationalcurriculum that changes by month
.
My lesson plan changes by week,so I have a flex schedule.
So when you're a novice levelstudent, you receive a schedule
of five weekly options and youhave the freedom, without
(35:06):
telling us, to come to any oneof those five classes at leisure
.
And if you miss one class oneweek because you're sick, on
vacation or have a lot of schoolstuff or some sports conflicts,
you can come twice the nextweek.
So as long as they maintainfour classes a month and those
four classes will get them there.
And it's not perfect because Iknow some people we have
sparring on Tuesdays andThursdays, breaking.
(35:26):
On Fridays we do ourself-defense on dude.
You must not have kids or wehave people now that have such
strict schedules.
I have a kid in wrestling, Ihave a kid in volleyball, I have
four kids in soccer, mydaughters.
They have all these differentactivities.
Of course they do martial artstoo.
What I love about the martialart class for my kids is they
have a flex schedule.
They have five options a weekto go to one class and then once
(35:50):
they get to Red Belt they gotwice a week.
Because my belief now is thatmaybe they can get just as much
value going once a week for 75minutes for the same price as
they pay for going twice a weekand just give them three, four
options a week.
And please don't think that ifyou copy and pasted the model
that Master Chan Lee is runningtoday or I'm running today or
(36:12):
other successful schools, we'reall in trouble.
We're all in the same situation.
You just might have a littleless gross but you don't have
$100,000, $120,000 in expenses.
But there are school ownersthat I know right now that I
could call and hear some realchallenges that have overhead
over a million dollars a month.
(36:33):
I mean, could you imagine theamount of systems?
So when you have one school andyour overhead's $5,000, $10,000
, that is not as hard as youthink you amount of systems.
So when you have one school andyour overhead's five $10,000,
that is not as hard as you thinkyou could do it.
You're built for it and it'snot for money, it's for legacy,
it's for changing lives, andyours in the process.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
But that's.
This is exactly why we'rewanting to talk to you today,
because your system is so muchdifferent than Master Chalini's
system set up, than Master JohnDoe's system over there, and
there's not one way to get tothat goal.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
No, it's just like fighting.
Some people are right-legged,some people are left-legged,
some people are counter fighters, some people are attacking
fighters, some people they playthe game different, but it all
is a matter of strategy,pressure, endurance, strength
and speed, of course, but moreso your timing and your distance
management, and I think that,when it comes to your business,
(37:34):
you don't need to start teachingjujitsu or start offering
kickboxing classes or startdoing this.
My school's open at two o'clock.
Some of the instructors don'troll in there until three, and
then our last class finishes ateight, and we're open five days
a week.
I offer health insurance to theemployees.
There's two to five weeks paidvacation.
I would like to work for thecompany and the thing is that I
(37:57):
started from a very successfulposition under my father and my
uncles, and then I hit rockbottom when I was 30.
You know what I mean, and ittook me till I was in my mid
thirties to finally get mystride.
And it's crazy.
And if you think you're too old, you can't tell me that I
started doing stunts after 40.
(38:18):
I threw a kicking video uponline and a director saw it.
I don't.
I didn't like.
Life is crazy.
And you know what, if you dogood work, if your food tastes
amazing at your restaurant,people will find you.
People will find you.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Especially in this day and age where you can.
You don't need to be in a highvisibility shopping center.
Especially in this day and agewhere you can, you don't need to
be in a high visibilityshopping center.
You just need to be able tohave good reviews online Google,
business, yelp, so forth.
But let's yeah sorry, Tony.
No, nothing to be sorry for this.
Let's, let's.
It's just fascinating talkingwith you once a week.
(38:57):
I mean, this is going to blowsome people's mind.
Once a week, you limit studentattendance to once a week,
charging the highest in yourneighborhood.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Let me clarify something I believe in once a
week, so much I had to changethe entire curriculum in order
for it to work that when one ofmy masters that trained under me
as instructor, that certifiedthrough me, teaches their class
once a week, and when thatfour-year-old turns 12 and tests
(39:28):
and there's 100 of them, those112-year-olds learning from my
masters that I taught directly,instructors that I certified
through our system, they'reteaching better and they have a
better performing black belt at11, 12 than if I taught myself
(39:50):
14 years ago a student two,three times a week, if I had a
hundred of those kids thatstarted when they're four and
they were trying to test whenthey're eight.
Because 12-year-olds arestronger and more seasoned and
more mature than eight-year-olds.
And I am of the belief that Idon't want a school of black
(40:12):
belts that are six, seven, eight.
I want them to be more 11, 12,13.
It's give and take, so it's notdoing what's right for the
business, it's doing what'sright.
People grossly overestimate whatthey can do in a year and you
grossly underestimate whatyou're going to do in 10.
So imagine your school in 2035.
What do your black belts looklike?
(40:33):
Because if they look likegarbage, regardless of the photo
in front of.
We are a black belt, schoolOlympic champions, all that
stuff.
Forget about the photo.
How is their low block?
How is their bow, the depth andpace of their bow, their kick?
Can they pass a guard?
Can they have good timing andare they decent humans?
(40:54):
Because, at the end of the day,if you cannot answer that with
a handshake with a parent, theywon't pay you even $50 a month
for unlimited lessons, but theywill pay you hundreds for the
value that you can develop andprovide.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Awesome, awesome Master.
Tony, thank you so much forjoining our show.
Let's conclude here, but you'redefinitely coming back.
If you are enjoying our show,go ahead and rate and review our
podcast or YouTube channel.
Our goal is to make our show assuccessful as possible.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yes, please like this , Like this I want to have more
likes than Grandmaster Chan Leeand comment, Comment like your
favorite Cobra Kai character inthe comments and I'll reply to
everyone.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
And your review will definitely help achieve that.
Have a great week, everyone.
Have a great week, Master Tony.
I look forward to our nextepisode.
In our fifth episode, we will find out if small
schools can generate mega schoolprofits.
Welcome to Black Belt Banterthe best podcast to help your
Marshall School increase profitsand generate substantial
revenue.
I'm Jimmy Hong and my co-hostis Master Tony Chung.
Master Tony is an accomplishedschool owner generating over $2
(00:24):
million annually with multiplelocations.
He also works in the film andtelevision industry as an actor,
stunt double and fight trainer.
His more recent works includeCobra, kai, will Trent, the
Tulsa King, the Naked Gun Movieand so many more.
Master Tony, welcome, and I'mjust so excited to discuss this
(00:47):
topic with you today becausethis topic can small school
owners generate mega schoolrevenues and profits.
I think it can resonate with alot of our listeners, myself
included.
Is this possible?
What say you, master Tony?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Hi, thanks for having me.
I appreciate being here.
Thank you to you and MasterChan Lee for just providing the
time.
I've been running schools.
I'm 46 now.
I've been running a locationunder my father since I was 16.
And then I've run my ownlocation since I was 18 and made
all the mistakes that you couldpossibly imagine and there's a
(01:28):
lot of different models that canwork in business.
And I remember specifically Ithink I was 29.
I thought the day I was goingto get the key and then my dad's
like, go make your own boy.
And I was like, excuse me.
My dad's like, yeah, this is mydojo, Go make your own.
And then started my journey.
So, flash forward.
I ended up in Atlanta, Georgia,after bouncing around for quite
(01:53):
a few years, about 15 years ago,and I didn't have any money, so
I just started with a verysmall school.
Even to this day, my schools arearound 2000 square feet Um, and
just focusing on metrics andjust figuring it out as I go
along and I'm just trying to, Idon't know exactly how many
martial arts schools are in thecountry.
This, the theory is thatthere's anywhere between 30 to
(02:15):
50,000, but I don't know if thatincludes kickboxing gyms, or
even boxing gyms and wrestlingacademies, but maybe I don't
know at least brick and mortarmartial art schools to the
effect of what we would knowlike taekwondo, jujitsu,
taekwondo karate.
There's got to be at least25,000.
That's a good.
I guess that would be anaverage of 500.
(02:36):
Is my math right?
25,000.
Hold on, I got to use mycalculator here.
25,000 divided by 50 states,yeah, that's about 500 schools a
state on average.
I think in Georgia there'sabout 650, maybe even more, just
in the greater Atlanta area.
So when I came here it was justwhat I could afford.
So I just want you to know thatI've had the riches to rag
(02:57):
story.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Well, your story is fascinating, Master Tony,
because, yes, we were similar inthat we were that 1.5
generation where our master wasa grandmaster, coming out,
immigrated, trying to provide abetter life for us, but my
father had to.
After college, I didn't wantanything to do with the
Taekwondo Dojang.
My father had to persuade me,force me, whatever the word it
(03:20):
is and I finally got into it.
And then, once I got into it, Iwas like, oh, I can make a
career out of this.
I can like this is fun in theclassroom, but not only that.
I can make revenues that I'maccustomed to and that I want to
do with my aspirations.
But your story that's where ourstory changes.
(03:40):
A lot of my friends they havethat similar story as me that
was passed down from theirfathers.
But you and what I love aboutyou, master Tony, is that you
didn't have that.
You had to start on your own,basically with no funds, no
initial money to start, andwithout the help of support from
(04:01):
your father and family.
And you went out and you did iton your own and came this way,
which is much better than therest of us.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Thank you for that.
But everything is by accident,it's by the grace of just
fortune and favor, and I'mhonored to be here to try to
motivate some of you, even ifit's one person that's listening
to this podcast, when we satdown and we talked about putting
this podcast together.
It's a lot of work, everybody'sreally busy.
But we kept circling back towhy.
(04:31):
And it's just, we all feel verylucky and fortunate to be
friends in the industry,changing lives and ours in the
process.
And I think there's a lot ofsmall schools out there that
kind of understand that it's toomuch month, not enough money,
and you keep seeing all of theseads or talks or this or that,
(04:52):
and when everybody seems to havea secret bullet or some kind of
crazy thing.
So when I finally got set up inGeorgia, I had a 16, I think it
was 1200 square feet Cause Imeasured it from the inside.
I don't know about you guys,but the landlord will tell you
it's 1600 square feet Cause Imeasured it from the inside.
I don't know about you guys,but the landlord will tell you
it's 1600 square feet.
I didn't almost touch the wallon each side, are you sure?
And you measure it.
(05:12):
And then I'm like dude, this is1200 square feet and change,
this is not 1600.
And they measure from the outerwalls to all the tenants on
each side.
Measure from the outer wallsbecause there's enough margin
that we're paying.
We got to be paying more.
It should cover cam, but it'sjust too much month, not enough
money and for me wait, wait.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
What do you mean by that?
Too much month?
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I have so many bills to pay and I have so much stuff
to do and I just don't haveenough money to get to the end
of the month.
Sometimes there's the monthgoes so fast.
The first is coming again andrents do.
But I'm talking about whenthere's too much month, not
enough money.
There's that you want to market.
You know you want to do this,but you're teaching, you're
cleaning.
I read something recently thatresonated with me.
There's nothing original, bythe way.
There's no original ideas.
(05:59):
There's just things that youhaven't heard of recently.
You've probably heard ofeverything by now, probably too
much.
I heard something recently aboutfour things for success and
these are the components.
Right, there are other factors,but if you had to lean it to
four things, there are four mainingredients to a successful
business, and the first one isand they're not in any
(06:22):
particular order, but the firstone is artist or creator.
So you have to be somebody thatis, you're good at it.
You're the guy or the lady.
You're the artist or thecreator in your field.
It could be a painter, it couldbe a gymnast, it could be a
martial arts school teacher,operator, or you're the
(06:45):
technician.
So that's a little differentthan design.
So when I was at Macho, I wasthe spokesman, but I was also
eventually I became the head ofthe R&D department.
So, on one thing, somebodycould have the idea or the
vision of the direction of thecompany and then you need an
operator or a technician toactually go design the parts, or
the helmet, or the red man gearor the strapping system that
attaches the equipment.
And then the third component isowner of the business.
(07:07):
Okay, because as an owner it'sreally about liabilities and tax
implications and managingpayroll and or just paying the
bills, just getting your licensedone, getting the proper
insurance, making sure that youhave more gross, reasonable
expenditures and hopefully somenet.
And then the fourth componentis what we call the board.
(07:28):
The board is your investorbecause you need money.
And I used to think there wasthree things.
I used to think it was you haveto be a technician, you have to
be a manager and then you haveto be an entrepreneur.
But I like the four strategybecause an entrepreneur may have
the good idea for a marketopportunity, but they don't have
the cash.
So I like that fourth thing ofhaving a board because the
(07:50):
reality is you need money, youneed capital.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So I know a lot of players in the industry and all
the successful high incomeearners.
Their setup is this megaschools, seven to 12,000 square
foot locations maybe not justone, but multiple locations, and
when you think of successfulschools, those were all the
(08:13):
types that you see visibly outthere.
But your setup is so uniquebecause you're averaging, your
schools are averaging, you don'thave anything over 2,000 square
foot and you're making bignumbers just like them and I
didn't want to say this in thetitle because this is this thing
that's blowing my mind but youdon't believe in cashing out.
(08:36):
So you are getting theserevenues monthly, big mega
school revenues operating insmall school locations, without
cash outs.
I didn't know that was possible.
And yet you're doing it day byday, month by month, year by
year.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Whatever your model is, some people use the metrics.
So when I was finally set up atthe 1600 square foot actually
1200 square foot school, you getgoing.
Nobody came.
I'm just sitting there.
It's like you work really hardand you get all your stuff
together to go fishing, youfinally get the lines in the
water and then you're justsitting there and you're not
(09:15):
even catching a good time.
Why do I do this?
This is crazy.
And do I go outside in myuniform and wave at people?
As sad as that sounds?
What do I do?
I'm by myself.
What do I do?
I'm there literally nine in themorning to nine at night, and
so I just started using my head.
(09:35):
So I got paper out.
I'm old fashioned, I like to usepaper and pencil.
I try to isolate myself, try tostay off your smartphone.
You try to stay off yourcomputer, and I just sat there
in silence with paper and pen,just a lot of pads of paper.
So I try to create all thesemetrics and I wanted to build
this financial business machine.
(09:57):
That made sense and I startedwith the end in mind.
I think that's Stephen Coveyyou begin with the end in mind
and I said if I had a thousandstudents and that was the number
if I had a thousand studentsand I worked backwards and just
so you know, right now we haveabout 1300 members between all
of our locations and oursatellite programs.
I just signed certificates forthe black belt testing and we
(10:19):
started with Don, number one,and then I signed Don's
certificate, number 507 today.
So in 15 years I do havesystems Going back.
I have this paper.
I said if I had a thousandstudents, how would I teach them
?
We watch shows like my LotteryDream Home and you hear about
these lottery stories.
What would you do if you won it?
(10:40):
That's why most of the peoplethat win the lottery, as we all
know, lose it because theydidn't have the skills to get it
.
So even if you were giftedmoney, even if you were gifted
students, even if you weregifted stellar staff, a big,
gigantic building in a greatlocation, would you know how to
manage it?
And I didn't know that becauseI never had a thousand students.
(11:01):
My father never had a thousandstudents, and so I just sat down
with paper and I figured outall these metrics and I came
down to a couple of Keystonemetrics that are very common in
the industry.
Now, how many students are youadding a month, your addition, I
guess the second one from therewould be your churn or your
attrition, the number ofstudents you lose, which is
(11:23):
usually a percentage To me it'sa number of how many students
you're adding.
It's a percentage of how manystudents you lose over time,
right?
And then the third one would beyour average student value.
So if you do cash, if you haveupgrade programs, if you're just
monthly recurring revenue witha 30-day cancel, or you have no
contracts and my first schoolpeople just drop an envelope of
(11:46):
$75 and literally less than 50%of my students paid tuition no,
I'm sorry, it was $50 a monthand $75 for an entire family,
unlimited.
And whatever your model is, youtake your gross revenues for
the month, you divide by thenumber of students that are
training in that month and thatyou get your average student
value, which is the third metric.
The fourth metric is your gross.
(12:07):
Your gross is affected by allof the profit centers your
enrollment profit centers,upgrade, if you have that, your
equipment group, your eventsgroup, which includes testing,
seminars, tournaments, any kindof event that you would do
parents' night out, birthdayparties and then your fifth
profit center would be, in myopinion, your monthly recurring
(12:29):
revenues, your tuition that'scoming every month by way of
your billing company or if theyjust pay you on Stripe.
And then your sixth one ismiscellaneous.
If you have any satelliteprograms, are you doing any
things that are justmiscellaneous?
And then you add those sixprofit centers together.
That's your gross.
And then you line item yourexpenditures, your rent, your
utilities, your insurances.
(12:50):
If you have payroll, yourpayroll.
My payroll fluctuates between70 and 80,000 a month.
Just to give you an idea.
It sounds great.
And when things are good justto give you an idea, it sounds
great.
And when things are good.
Business owners, we all knowthat we get paid last.
We may get paid best, but weget paid last and in the bad
months.
For those that get to a level,I'm nobody.
I have done okay for myself,but not to say anything.
(13:14):
But my quick little plug is becareful with whom you yield
advice that affects your life.
Be very careful who you getadvice from.
What are you?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
going to do.
You know what I mean.
I can vouch for you because Isaw your operations and I saw
the size of your schools and youare extremely successful.
Master Tony is being verymodest here, but my question is
to get that high revenue, highincome?
I know your monthly membershipcost is not small.
(13:47):
It's one of the highest in yourneighborhood area and that is
how he's able to generate.
Isn't there a student limit onyour small space?
How can you get a lot ofstudents?
Or do you even have a lot ofstudents because you only have a
2,000 square foot locations?
How is that able to fill?
And doesn't that limit you ongetting past a certain student
(14:08):
number?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah.
So just to work backwards, mymodel that I built out, I wanted
to have about 240 maximum, 250,I think, was the number of
maximum students at a location.
So when I had that idea, if Ihad, if I was gifted a thousand
people, my dad was a militaryinstructor in Korea.
Tony, you need to teach thesethousand soldiers and they need
(14:29):
to be competent to a certainlevel and you have 10 years to
do it.
How would you do it?
So I didn't know how to do it,so I sat down and I'd say I'd
have to have this many masters,I'd have to have this many
classes, I'd have to have sixlevels of training.
I did it five days a week andit evolved.
But basically, what ishappening today at the academies
(14:52):
, at my schools now is what Icame up with 15 years ago, and
the concept was I wanted theaverage location to maintain
between 200 and 250 studentswith an average student value of
$200 plus.
And that has changed, obviouslypost COVID.
But to give you some crazyglimpses up to red belt at our
(15:12):
academy, you can only go once aweek.
Twice a week is not an option.
And then, once you get your redbelt, then you can go twice a
week.
So instead of doing eight beltsto red, we did 16 belts.
I wanted it to take for ourtigers that were joining at
three, four years old.
I didn't want them to betesting in four years for black
belt or so, because that justdoesn't look good and when you
(15:34):
scale when you're teaching, it'shard to replicate.
My wife can Wait, wait.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
So wait, the students come.
The beginners intermediates areallowed to only come maximum of
one class per week.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yes, so there's multiple reasons.
I did that so early.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
That's You're blowing my mind right now.
Master Tony, One class a week.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
One class a week.
We instituted that 10 years ago, going on 11 years ago, and
there's multiple reasons forthat.
I wanted to increase revenuesbecause I wanted to pay my staff
properly and our revenues haveto increase in order.
Our profit has to increase inorder to do that, but it was
better for the student.
I always start with what's bestfor the student and, in my
opinion, getting your black beltin three years to four years
(16:20):
for an adult is fine.
For some kids it's okay.
For some kids that are learningfrom some of my instructors
that trained under some of mymasters on their worst teaching
day absolutely unacceptable.
I do live graded testing.
I wanted to create a systemthat can teach a thousand people
.
So I have eight full-timeemployees to 10.
(16:42):
It fluctuates depending on somepeople move on, some people
stay, some people have to firepeople and then so it's between
eight and 10.
We only need eight, but if wewere opening more locations, you
need to have some of thepipeline, and they have 30 to 36
part-timers.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And then we have all.
This is all your locationstogether, not not one, obviously
not one location.
This is all together, so we'reone academy with many locations
to serve but um well, just goingover the numbers, I mean your
goal of 250 active student countand you're charging the highest
in terms of tuition membershipin your area, which is over 250
(17:21):
per month.
I mean you're looking at 250 amonth.
At 250 active students, that's62,500.
You're looking at monthly andthat's just tuition.
That's not including your otherfive aspects of revenue.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
That's just tuition.
That's not including your otherfive aspects of revenue.
It's actually not quite thatgreat on average, but we're
always in the pocket.
My worst location has alwaysdone over 400.
And then I have locations thatpush success.
But going backwards, when I hada 1200 square foot school and I
made this plan, I was brokeanyway and I had no time.
(18:00):
I had no students, I had allthe time in the world.
I better create a plan.
And then I created this plan,very intricate, not only a sales
process, not only you have tohave the curriculum, you have to
.
You remember the old Wendy'scommercial where's the beef?
And and I wanted to finish mypoint from before and I know I'm
scatterbrained, so just ifyou're listening to this, this
(18:20):
guy's a mess.
He talks all over the place.
Yeah, and I made it.
It's crazy and I like to usewhat I call my success compass.
So I have a metrics.
I use an Excel spreadsheet.
Don't use any software.
Not that I'm talking bad aboutsoftware, I'm trying to learn
how to use some of thesesoftwares but I literally use
Excel spreadsheets.
We use QuickBooks for our pointof sale.
(18:41):
When you create a plan, you haveto know what to do with it.
You have to execute the plan,you have to deploy the plan and
then you have to have thepricing to allow you to pay
everybody and pay the bills andhave enough left over and build
a war chest so you could survivehard times, because overhead is
over $100,000.
I don't even remember the lasttime my overhead was under
(19:02):
$100,000 in a month before youmake a penny.
And I remember the first timewe broke $100,000 as a gross and
I was like whoa, we went outand ate Korean barbecue with the
instructors and we'rehigh-fiving and we're like, wow,
we did it Great.
And then it's been decadessince the expenses were under
$100,000.
But it's all relative, just soyou know.
And with the macroeconomiceconomy, whatever you look at it
(19:27):
, it's a tough economy.
It's going to continue to be atough economy.
I think that you need to getreally good with your numbers.
I think you need to be veryconservative with your
expenditures.
I think you need to be lean andmean.
I think that some of you wantto have instructors, but you
need to be lean and mean.
I think that some of you wantto have instructors, but you
need to fire almost all of theinstructors that you have
because they're probably notadequate.
(19:47):
So you need to teach you.
You either need to becomebetter yourself, train them to
be better, develop the pipelineand have a long-term vision
right.
I struggled for the first fiveyears, from creating that plan
on month one.
I struggled.
It was very difficult and itwas very hard.
(20:09):
So I just want you to know itwas a riches to rags story and I
was able to be blessed andfortunate and have enough favor
to just fall on my back and justuse my math just paper pencil
calculator.
And when one student finallywalked in the door, I taught my
butt off.
You can't keep them all, butyou just want to.
(20:31):
Just, instead of changing theworld, which was always my dream
, I said I'm going to changesomeone's world.
I'm going to focus on quality.
I'm going to over-deliver.
I'm going to make sure that,even though I have a contract,
I'm going to make sure that I'monly as good as my last class.
I could die after this lastclass that I teach and I'm good.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I was just going to ask you how do you I think you
just answered how do youconvince parents to pay your
highest tuition in all of thearea compared to your
competitors?
And that seems like that's theanswer right there.
Once they see the value of whatthey're getting, they're
(21:12):
willing to pay for the highestquality instructions.
Is that?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, yeah.
So I've seen systems wherepeople are okay, we do step one,
we do this and we email them,we do an evaluation, we do this,
we create the benefit.
The benefit has to minus thecost equals the value.
That's all great, but at theend of the day you may be not
qualified for the job thatyou're asked to do, but you know
(21:40):
that it's a hard job and nobodyelse could do that job.
And I'm going to look at thatboss, I'm going to look at that
client, I'm going to look atthat parent and I'm going to say
I am going to do my very bestand you have my word.
Will you shake my hand?
I will teach my ass off foryour kid and I will try to drive
you so much value.
And it's great to advertise,it's great to have nice
(22:00):
paperwork and fancy littlepresentations.
Sometimes you know what makesCobra Kai.
It's not the stuff on the walls, it's not the logo, it was
Johnny Lawrence.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
You know what I mean that show was fascinating, by
the way, yeah, because we all inour generation, we all grew up
with I'll grew up with KarateKid, and that movie
single-handedly turned my dad'sschool's trajectory around.
I mean, after that movie opened, yeah, I remember going to the
Karate Kid.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
The only movie my dad ever took us to was the Karate
Kid and it was awesome.
I got to bring my dad to theKarate Kid, to the Cobra Kai set
.
He got to be on the show and mydad wanted to go to the movies
to see what all the fuss wasabout, because all these people
started joining the school.
And it's funny I was talking tosomebody a couple weeks ago.
Do you think this?
Do you think that?
And I'm like are you insane?
(22:48):
You know that this is thegolden years for the martial
arts.
Maybe 10 years ago, because Iwas confused and I hadn't really
gotten my stride, man, itmust've been nice to be back in
the 80s.
That's how you think.
Back in the 90s, people weren'teven that good and they have
hundreds of students, dude, noway.
If you've seen what I see, ifyou go see some of these school
(23:10):
owners that are really gettingit and they're not on social
media, you know who the heck has.
They're too busy getting it.
You know what I'm talking about.
For example, grandmaster ChanLee.
I am nothing, I am literally anant, and he is the king of the
forest, but he's very humble,awesome.
That's why I follow him.
(23:32):
That's why he's the presidentof a sock is.
He's the man and it was evidentif you heard the first few
episodes of the podcast.
He's the man.
And at the end of the day, if aparent walks in and they talk
to Grandmaster Chan Lee, they'regoing to sign up because
they're not just looking formartial arts.
People are looking for something.
Especially in times like this,people are lost.
(23:52):
People are driving up and down,clocking in, clocking out,
worried about their kids Anyparent I have four kids clocking
in, clocking out, worried abouttheir kids.
Any parent I have four kidsYou're only as happy as your
least happy kid.
I will sell my house and mykidney and anything in between
for my kid to be happy andsuccessful.
And if you have a martial artsschool, if your instructor looks
(24:15):
like a badass and is teaching apowerful class and is humble
and is teaching a powerful classand is humble and it's just it
feels like a mixture of JohnnyLawrence and Mr Miyagi that's
worth everything and you shouldcharge a fair price.
Please don't think that I wantyou to figure out all these
metrics and techniques to chargethe most amount of money Like
just so you guys know I drive aKia.
(24:36):
Okay, my wife drives a Kia.
My last car was a Hyundai andit had 200,000 miles on it.
I my goal is not to accumulatea Lambo, or I'm not trying to
talk bad about other people inthe industry.
I congratulate them on theirsuccess.
But to me, to me, to me it'sgrand grandmaster John Lee.
(24:57):
I don't want to put him on onblast, but there's people like
him that are amazing and theyuse their money for charities.
They're making a difference?
It's not, and if you're outthere, I want you to know that
you do not have to sell yourmartial soul in order to make a
(25:17):
dollar, but you have to getbetter.
You have to be martially better, you have to be a better
teacher and you have to be ableto verbalize that, and you have
to have a little bit of capital.
You have to have managementskills and if you don't have it,
hang around people that do.
Most of the best advice I evergot came from people like
(25:41):
Grandmaster Chonley.
Never charged me for it Ifsomebody's charging you for it.
I believe in coaches, I believein this and that, but there's
no magic pill.
There is no secret AI, this orthat.
All of those things are tools.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
And if you strip all of that sales marketing, all of
that stuff because I'm horribleat sales and marketing- which is
so fascinating, on how yourstudent active count with that
small location with highgrossing revenues and you don't
market and sales like the megaschools, which is just
fascinating.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I don't have any program directors.
Everybody is a master or ahigh-level instructor and they
all teach.
And it's just any programdirectors.
Everybody is a master or a highlevel instructor and they all
teach and it's just slow andsteady.
It's a Keystone metric of yourbilling check.
It's charging a fair price,it's learning to say no.
Some client that is asking forABC one, two, three, our closing
, just so you guys know, ourclosing ratio at our schools is
(26:37):
30 to 40% depending on thelocation and the season.
So I know some schools Wait,wait.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
What is closing rate on what?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
30 to 40%.
If 10 people come in, three orfour of them will sign up.
We're not for everyone.
There are 650 martial artsschools, and the market is
plenty big.
I talk to almost every schoolowner I can.
I saw one school owner atCostco the other day and just
saying hi, because he had aCobra Kai shirt on and he
recognized me and recognized Iwas like oh, that's awesome,
(27:05):
love to have lunch with you.
I talked to every school.
We're all on the same team,like a high tide raises all
ships.
You don't have to have ascarcity mindset.
What you have to do, though, isyou've got to be a competitor,
and you don't have to be acompetitor in the ring.
I never was a national champion.
I wasn't a.
I was a decent fighter, but youdon't have to be all that, but
(27:27):
you have to train.
You don't even have to createchampions.
You just have to help peopleprogress, and it's not the
kicking and the punching it'sabout you need to ask and find
out and help deduce what yourclient wants and needs.
You know, and then add to thatyou have to these kids when they
test.
They have to look good.
At the end of the day, you haveto teach them and if you find
(27:51):
yourself, it doesn't matter ifyou have 60 students or 6,000
students.
If you are worried that yourtesting is a demonstration of
value and you're worried thatpeople are going to quit, you
have a serious problem with yourprogram, because it should be a
test, our Black Belt test.
We fail students Every test.
If a student is not ready, theyfail, or we can wait to test.
(28:14):
And I understand you want yourclosing ratios to be high.
All this, but do you want tohave a good month?
Do you want to have a good this, but do you want to have a good
month?
Do you want to have a goodseason or do you want to have a
good life?
Because I'm at a point whereI'm closer to 50 than I am to 60
.
My younger brother passed awaya couple years ago almost, and
I've realized that life is veryshort.
(28:34):
You can't take anything withyou, but what you leave behind
is your legacy.
And what is your legacy?
Is it a car?
Is it a beautiful school thatyou own the building?
I don't own any of my buildings.
I do not have a million dollarschool.
I have a million dollar payrolland you can do anything you
want.
Nothing against real estate andowning your school, but if you
(28:55):
have a small school, anything ispossible and that's why, that's
why, and I just that's.
It's what I'm adamant about.
Anything is possible, but yougot to do the work and there is
no secret.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
There is no secret that's why this, this episode,
just resonates, but I'm going toassume it's going to resonate
with majority of our owners,listeners I'm sorry because
they're in the same situation,you know, yeah, and the last
thing I'll tell you is this ifyou had a drone's eye view of
(29:30):
how close you were to successjust by changing the dial to a
different temperature orflipping a couple of switches?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
you don't need to.
You don't need.
I give up.
I'm just going to follow thisperson.
He'll tell me exactly what todo.
That does not exist.
That does not exist and I knowit's difficult.
But restaurants operate on a 5,8, sometimes 10% margin.
(30:00):
Martial arts schools if you'rea single operator owner,
operator you have 50% margins ormore.
Maybe it's less if you're notgrossing very much.
But with those margins it is soeasy to really get to
profitability right.
And yes, the economy's tough,but there are some industries,
(30:21):
like the food industry.
They're getting hammered whenfood cost is already 27, 30, 33%
of your gross.
When food costs go up, it justhammers you.
Just if you knew how close youwere and again, this message is
only for one person.
I'm good with that, just like Iwas good with one person
walking through the door and Iwas good not having a thousand
(30:43):
students.
And I had no idea that when Ipicked my head up from teaching
those classes being buried inteaching the best classes that I
can not hiding behind sloganson the wall or some marketing
tactic or this or that, justteaching my butt off in a class.
It didn't even have to be agood class, just I'm sweating,
I'm doing my best and when aparent recognizes that you're
(31:05):
doing the best for their child,they'll support you.
And all you need is to get myaverage class at all.
My schools has eight to 10students in class six days a
week, that is so low.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And with eight to 10, well, I mean it makes sense
with the smaller square footage.
But eight to 10 and you'regrossing 50, 60,000 a month.
I mean, I was a small spaceschool owner.
I'm sorry 40 to 50.
But I was a small school spaceowner and for me, to get to that
(31:42):
number, I was cashing out.
I was cashing out 30, 40% oftuition, but you're able to
achieve this without cashing out.
What is your, you know?
Why don't you cash?
Speaker 2 (31:54):
out.
I do offer paid in fullrevenues.
We just do not offer a discount.
Our current agreements are 18and 36 months.
But when they do pay in full,which is a very small percentage
those that can afford to pay infull, they value their time, so
they'll only want to commit fora year To me.
When people sign up for anagreement, for our value
proposition, there's the amountyou put down, there's the
(32:15):
monthly reoccurring revenueamount, the monthly payment, and
then there's the commitmentlength, and what we have
discovered is that I do not wantto give when.
If my business model is in thepocket of a net of 30 to 40%
somewhere in between there, if Ioffer a for every dollar that
comes into the business, if Ioffer a paid in full person 20,
(32:35):
30, I've heard people do 40, 50%discounts and they justify it
because they're like oh, myaverage student only lasts 10
months and my monthly tuition isthis, so any dollar over that,
whatever.
But for my model I'm like nopeople that pay in full, they
stay longer.
So I want it to be fair.
So if your commitment lengthgoes down, then everything else
(32:57):
has to hold.
So it's just a mixture.
So it's a bigger down paymentthan everything else has to hold
.
So it's just a mixture, so it'sa bigger down payment, but I
want to create a quality blackbelt in seven to 10 years.
I've said that there'snon-glorious things about the
business.
I don't love teaching tigers inmy schools, but we do.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I wish everybody Tigers you mean three and four
years old.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah and I wish everybody could train every day,
but that's not realistic.
So we allow people up to redbelt, up to red belt on your
track.
There's eight belts.
It takes you there's eightbelts to there's 16 belts, I'm
sorry, 16 belts to red.
And it takes you four years toget to red.
And it could take you hold on,Let me do my math.
(33:37):
I'm just double checking.
It's three month cycles, 18belts.
No, I'm sorry, 16 belts.
Three month cycles, yeah, 48months, yeah, four years.
And then it takes you at leastanother year and a half to go
from red to certified firstdegree.
And I tell people because a lotof people are like, oh, what are
you going to learn?
The red belt's not very good.
And I said your martialmaturity is like paying down
(34:00):
your mortgage.
On a 30-year mortgage you don'tpay 50% of the principal down
until year 22.
So the first four years of yourtraining is just to develop the
basics and the fundamentals.
But the last 50% of yourdevelopment, of your skill set
to black belt will be earned inthe last year and a half to two
and a half years of yourtraining.
And I like that because initialpeople that train that are
(34:24):
five-year-olds, seven-year-olds,10-year-olds, because the
majority of our students arekids and most of our teens and
adults are family add-ons thathave aged up or joined because
of their kid.
So I just focused on kids andkids need a flex schedule.
So in Georgia there's all kindsof sports.
We have pretty good weatheryear round.
(34:44):
We have all kinds of sports.
So my schools are open fivedays a week.
I have a class for every leveloffered every day and my
curriculum is a rotationalcurriculum that changes by month
.
My lesson plan changes by week,so I have a flex schedule.
So when you're a novice levelstudent, you receive a schedule
of five weekly options and youhave the freedom, without
(35:06):
telling us, to come to any oneof those five classes at leisure
.
And if you miss one class oneweek because you're sick, on
vacation or have a lot of schoolstuff or some sports conflicts,
you can come twice the nextweek.
So as long as they maintainfour classes a month and those
four classes will get them there.
And it's not perfect because Iknow some people we have
sparring on Tuesdays andThursdays, breaking.
(35:26):
On Fridays we do ourself-defense on dude.
You must not have kids or wehave people now that have such
strict schedules.
I have a kid in wrestling, Ihave a kid in volleyball, I have
four kids in soccer, mydaughters.
They have all these differentactivities.
Of course they do martial artstoo.
What I love about the martialart class for my kids is they
have a flex schedule.
They have five options a weekto go to one class and then once
(35:50):
they get to Red Belt they gotwice a week.
Because my belief now is thatmaybe they can get just as much
value going once a week for 75minutes for the same price as
they pay for going twice a weekand just give them three, four
options a week.
And please don't think that ifyou copy and pasted the model
that Master Chan Lee is runningtoday or I'm running today or
(36:12):
other successful schools, we'reall in trouble.
We're all in the same situation.
You just might have a littleless gross but you don't have
$100,000, $120,000 in expenses.
But there are school ownersthat I know right now that I
could call and hear some realchallenges that have overhead
over a million dollars a month.
(36:33):
I mean, could you imagine theamount of systems?
So when you have one school andyour overhead's $5,000, $10,000
, that is not as hard as youthink you amount of systems.
So when you have one school andyour overhead's five $10,000,
that is not as hard as you thinkyou could do it.
You're built for it and it'snot for money, it's for legacy,
it's for changing lives, andyours in the process.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
But that's.
This is exactly why we'rewanting to talk to you today,
because your system is so muchdifferent than Master Chalini's
system set up, than Master JohnDoe's system over there, and
there's not one way to get tothat goal.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
No, it's just like fighting.
Some people are right-legged,some people are left-legged,
some people are counter fighters, some people are attacking
fighters, some people they playthe game different, but it all
is a matter of strategy,pressure, endurance, strength
and speed, of course, but moreso your timing and your distance
management, and I think that,when it comes to your business,
(37:34):
you don't need to start teachingjujitsu or start offering
kickboxing classes or startdoing this.
My school's open at two o'clock.
Some of the instructors don'troll in there until three, and
then our last class finishes ateight, and we're open five days
a week.
I offer health insurance to theemployees.
There's two to five weeks paidvacation.
I would like to work for thecompany and the thing is that I
(37:57):
started from a very successfulposition under my father and my
uncles, and then I hit rockbottom when I was 30.
You know what I mean, and ittook me till I was in my mid
thirties to finally get mystride.
And it's crazy.
And if you think you're too old, you can't tell me that I
started doing stunts after 40.
(38:18):
I threw a kicking video uponline and a director saw it.
I don't.
I didn't like.
Life is crazy.
And you know what, if you dogood work, if your food tastes
amazing at your restaurant,people will find you.
People will find you.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Especially in this day and age where you can.
You don't need to be in a highvisibility shopping center.
Especially in this day and agewhere you can, you don't need to
be in a high visibilityshopping center.
You just need to be able tohave good reviews online Google,
business, yelp, so forth.
But let's yeah sorry, Tony.
No, nothing to be sorry for this.
Let's, let's.
It's just fascinating talkingwith you once a week.
(38:57):
I mean, this is going to blowsome people's mind.
Once a week, you limit studentattendance to once a week,
charging the highest in yourneighborhood.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Let me clarify something I believe in once a
week, so much I had to changethe entire curriculum in order
for it to work that when one ofmy masters that trained under me
as instructor, that certifiedthrough me, teaches their class
once a week, and when thatfour-year-old turns 12 and tests
(39:28):
and there's 100 of them, those112-year-olds learning from my
masters that I taught directly,instructors that I certified
through our system, they'reteaching better and they have a
better performing black belt at11, 12 than if I taught myself
(39:50):
14 years ago a student two,three times a week, if I had a
hundred of those kids thatstarted when they're four and
they were trying to test whenthey're eight.
Because 12-year-olds arestronger and more seasoned and
more mature than eight-year-olds.
And I am of the belief that Idon't want a school of black
(40:12):
belts that are six, seven, eight.
I want them to be more 11, 12,13.
It's give and take, so it's notdoing what's right for the
business, it's doing what'sright.
People grossly overestimate whatthey can do in a year and you
grossly underestimate whatyou're going to do in 10.
So imagine your school in 2035.
What do your black belts looklike?
(40:33):
Because if they look likegarbage, regardless of the photo
in front of.
We are a black belt, schoolOlympic champions, all that
stuff.
Forget about the photo.
How is their low block?
How is their bow, the depth andpace of their bow, their kick?
Can they pass a guard?
Can they have good timing andare they decent humans?
(40:54):
Because, at the end of the day,if you cannot answer that with
a handshake with a parent, theywon't pay you even $50 a month
for unlimited lessons, but theywill pay you hundreds for the
value that you can develop andprovide.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Awesome, awesome Master.
Tony, thank you so much forjoining our show.
Let's conclude here, but you'redefinitely coming back.
If you are enjoying our show,go ahead and rate and review our
podcast or YouTube channel.
Our goal is to make our show assuccessful as possible.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yes, please like this , Like this I want to have more
likes than Grandmaster Chan Leeand comment, Comment like your
favorite Cobra Kai character inthe comments and I'll reply to
everyone.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
And your review will definitely help achieve that.
Have a great week, everyone.
Have a great week, Master Tony.
I look forward to our nextepisode.
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