August 19, 2025 • 53 mins
When Emory University professor and scholar Dr. Karida L. Brown began researching America's segregated education system, she didn't expect to uncover a radical history of resistance, innovation, and profound courage. Yet after eight years of meticulous archival work across America and South Africa, that's exactly what she found.
Dr Brown’s latest book, "The Battle for the Black Mind" reveals extraordinary stories of Black women educators who created schools with nothing but vision and determination. Mary Smith Peake risked everything to teach enslaved people to read two decades before Emancipation, establishing a freedom school under an oak tree that still stands on Hampton University's campus today. Lucy Craft Laney built the Haines Normal and Industrial Institute from a church basement into a sprawling educational center spanning two city blocks in Jim Crow Georgia, including the state's first Black nursing school.
Dr Brown, who currently serves on the board of The Obama Presidency Oral History Project, calls these nearly forgotten powerhouses and others like them “Freedom Dreamers”. She says that, "Freedom dreaming is the most radical form of political imagination."
Order The Battle for the Black Mind book: https://www.karida.io/books
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Timestamps:
- 0:00
Meeting Dr. Karida Brown - 8:18
The Battle for the Black Mind - 20:16
Mary Smith Peake's Freedom School - 31:02
Black Americans Birthed Public Education - 39:06
Lucy Craft Laney's Educational Legacy - 47:31
Battle for Education: Competing Interests - 50:17
Freedom Dreams for Today's Challenges
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey Ange, hey Liz, How's it going?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Very well Good.
Yes, Today's a good day.
Today is an excellent day.
I, you know I was a littlenervous about this, right?
Yes, and you had to kind oftalk me off the edge.
Yes, because that's what I do.
Yes, Listen, we have somebodyhere that I am so proud of and
so happy that she agreed to beon our podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
We're like aunties.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
We're like aunties, but I can't wait for you to meet
this dynamic lady.
That one right there.
Oh, you just wait.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Just hold one second.
Hold one second.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
But before I get all into that, I just want to say
welcome to another episode ofBlack Boomer Besties from
Brooklyn.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I'm Angela and that's Leslie, my best friend of
almost 50 years.
We are two free thinking 60something year old black women.
We have decided to be more boldand joyful in our lives and we
invite you to join us.
Today we're going to be talkingabout a topic that comes up
(01:10):
quite a bit on our show, podcastAll the Things, and that is
around legacy.
What is your legacy, how tocreate legacy, how to create
legacy, how to rethink legacy,and today we have a guest that
(01:31):
is such an example of that.
We're going to get to know alittle bit about her through her
bio, but also just how she gotto this place, where she decided
to do this really importantwork for the Black community and
everyone across the world.
I'm going to let Leslie readher bio and then we'll jump in.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Dr Corita L Brown is an NAACP Image Award winning
author and public intellectualwinning author and public
intellectual.
A professor at Emory University, Brown is a leading scholar of
systemic racism and the study ofBlack life.
Her work, which spans over adecade of groundbreaking
(02:17):
research and analysis, hasearned her both national and
international acclaim.
She is the co-author of the newBrownies book, A Love Letter to
Black Families, continuing thelegacy of WEB Du Bois by
centering Black narratives andempowering Black futures.
(02:37):
Dr Brown has made many mediaappearances.
You can find her work and hertalking and her scholarly work
all over the Internet if you'reinterested in looking, and you
will be.
She's made media appearances inMother Jones, in Ms Magazine
(02:58):
and Washington Post, among otherthings.
I can talk about some of hereducational background, but what
I do want to say is that sheand my bestie here have
something in common They've bothwent to University of
Pennsylvania.
So it's okay, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I'll just be over here on the side.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
But I bring to you right now Dr Corita L Brown
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Welcome, oh my goodness, hey besties, hey
darlings.
It is such a joy and an honorto be here sitting on the couch
with you all this evening.
And I really do appreciate theinvitation.
Thank you, it's great to haveyou.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
It's great to have you.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
So one of the things that I am just so impressed by
is your latest book not thefirst, your latest book that I
think it was published or itcame out in May of this year, so
it's brand new.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Brand spanking new.
It's so pretty, it's so pretty.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
The battle for the black mind.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Let's hold it forward a little bit, so it's less
shiny.
No, not yeah, so it's lessblurry.
Beautiful, there it is.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Because we got to talk about that cover.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll talk about this
cover, but this right now isrequired reading.
Certainly get your copy beforeit gets on the banned list.
We talked about that and we cankind of smile about that, but
that's no joke for real.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Books like this have so much rich information and
almost marching orders that Ican understand and see why many
of the masses don't want us toknow about these things.
It's empowering.
And we're going to get into,and it's a battle, and we're
going to get into some of thereasons why right now.
So, Dr Corita, come on in andtell us about this scholarly
(05:11):
piece of work that I'm just soproud of.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Battle for the Black Mind.
This is a work that has beeneight years in the making for me
.
Oh wow, Seven years ofmulti-sided archival research
across the United States and inSouth Africa, where I was on a
dogged pursuit to understandwhat exactly was a colored
(05:41):
school.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Okay, what exactly was a?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
colored school, ok, what we had in this country for
almost a century, and it'ssometimes like it gets lost upon
us.
I know, even for me, that foralmost 100 years in these United
States, the American schoolsystem was, by design, separate
and unequal and intentionallydesigned to be inferior.
(06:05):
Right Now, that's not whatnecessarily happened in
segregated schools, but that wasan intention and I wanted to
understand not only what thatwas segregated schools, racially
segregated schools I wanted tounderstand the ideology, the
(06:26):
philosophy that the architectsof the segregated system had in
mind for black folks and, ofcourse, the main part about this
book what black folks did inspite of this system to not only
survive but to thrive and tosituate education as a
cornerstone of the long blackfreedom struggle.
(06:49):
So that was my mission withthis book.
As I mentioned, seven years ofresearch, one year of writing
and the book came out.
As you mentioned, may 2025, forthe 71st anniversary of Brown
versus Board of Education.
For the 71st anniversary ofBrown versus Board of Education,
during a time where thisoccupier in the White House has
(07:16):
actively started the process ofdismantling the Department of
Education, has a front frontalassault on the higher education
system writ large in the UnitedStates.
So this book needed to come outin such a time as this, and I
want you all to experience it asa history of black education,
(07:38):
but also as a playbook.
Ok, because we got the recipesin the blueprints.
Our elders and ancestors leftthose for us and understand it
as a call to action.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Beautiful, beautiful.
So there is um, we, leslie andI, both read the book.
It is, um, it is uh, it is, asLeslie said, required reading.
Um, it deserves to be on thebookshelf and every on the
coffee table, because those arethe ones that people pick up and
(08:10):
flip through.
Every home needs to have a copyof this.
I purposefully did not statethe racial group of the home.
Every home should have thislevel of education, of
understanding how this all began.
(08:32):
There's a particular passagethat I've asked Dr Brown to read
because when I read it, it justmade me see okay, this is why
she did this for us, this is whyshe did this for us.
This was the compelling thatshe felt.
(08:54):
And you know, whenever we bringa guest on and they have
accomplished tremendous body ofwork, accomplished tremendous
body of work, I always thinkit's important for us to know
who they are and what drivesthem, so that you can see
yourself as not at the end, butkind of where it all began and
(09:18):
what was the stirring, so thatyou can feel that, and whatever
your legacy is, that you canbegin creating or continue
creating, you can use theirexample.
So, dr, we typically call firstname Dr Corita.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Just just call me Corita.
We're amongst besties here.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Absolutely, and we also like to give props.
So you work hard for that, drGirl, you work hard for it.
And we also like to give props.
So you work hard for that, drGirl, you work hard for it.
So if you could read, startingon page 148, the Blackademics
and then ending with Blackeducation tradition, that would
be great.
You guys listen up.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Sure, I've got my copy here.
Y'all Yay, y'all Yay.
These black academics anddozens of others took the focus
off of the tired old question,what's wrong with black people?
And shifted it towards the realquestion what is wrong with the
(10:20):
system?
They weren't interested intreating symptoms.
They were looking for the rootcauses of inequality symptoms.
They were looking for the rootcauses of inequality.
This is what we callemancipatory sociology, a
sociology that not onlydiagnoses the problem but also
offers solutions, pullinginjustice up by its roots and
dismantling systems that makelife hard for some and easier
(10:42):
for others, make life hard forsome and easier for others.
They use sociology as a mightyweapon to attack oppressive
systems at their core, andthat's the foundation of Black
sociology and it's a legacy thatruns deep in my veins.
As a Black woman sociologist,my work isn't just academic,
it's personal.
I stand on the shoulders ofgiants like the ones mentioned
(11:06):
above, those who dared to usesociology as a tool for our
liberation, not our oppression.
My own scholarship delves intothe historical roots of systemic
racism, revealing the innerworkings of how the structures
that confine us today built longbefore we were born.
(11:27):
I've traced these systems fromthe institutionalization of the
transatlantic slave trade inmedieval times all the way to
the 17th century, to theAfrican-American great migration
of the first half of the 20thcentury.
This book on racial inequalityin education is about exposing
the machinery that has kept usfrom our full potential and
(11:51):
celebrating our rich Blackeducational tradition.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Well, there you go.
Well, there you go.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Thank you.
Emancipation of the enslaved,of those held in bondage who
were not allowed to read andwrite in English.
They came with language butthey weren't allowed to read and
write in English.
And how, these women, despiteall of the cruelty, all of the
wickedness that was going on,that they established these ways
(12:48):
of teaching Can you talk to usabout?
I know you have a favorite, Iknow you have a favorite, you
know, but it changes every time.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
These women who are the protagonists of the book,
they were some bad sisters and Isee parts of myself, parts of
my mother, parts of mygrandmother, the women in my
life, in all of these women.
So you know, I'll pick one.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, you'll pick one .
Yeah, you'll pick one.
I don't remember her name, butshe is the one that started
teaching under the tree.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
The book maybe?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yes, and there's a spoiler alert about what that
tree is up to now.
But yeah, if you could tell usher story, that is a pretty
incredible, incredible story.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Mary Smith Peake.
She was born a free Black womanof color during slavery,
meaning that although she livedin Virginia, which was a slave
state, her family were notenslaved and what that afforded
(14:13):
Mary?
Her parents sent her north toDC where she was able to access
an education.
Mary almost completes highschool and upon attaining that
education she could have stayednorth.
She could have escaped thehorrors of living in a slave
society.
But no, she goes back to herhometown of Norfolk and then
(14:37):
Hampton, virginia.
And what does she do with thateducation?
She got what she do, she, she.
Mary was up to things.
She starts a, a dressmaking uh,business, right, and that's
what she's doing during the day,because it's providing her
cover for what she's really upto.
Mary smith peak is sneaking onto plantations teaching enslaved
(15:01):
black Americans how to read,write and what she calls cipher.
Why?
Because she knew she knew acouple of things.
She knew that knowledge ispower, and so did our enslaved
brothers and sisters who were,who were working with Mary at
that time, also knew that a daywould come when her people would
(15:27):
be free and they would needthat to be able to guide their
pathway into freedom, libertyand citizenship.
So she saw something, she hadvision Right.
And she, she didn't wait for itto be true, she didn't wait for
signs of it to be true.
She was doing this.
Y'all back in the 1840sUnbelievable.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
It was a knowing a knowing that she had.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
So 20 years before the Emancipation Proclamation.
However, you know she lives inHampton Virginia.
During the time that the CivilWar comes, the Confederate Army
burns Hampton Virginia down tothe ground.
The townspeople, especiallyenslaved Black Americans, run to
(16:10):
the nearest Union Army camp,fort Monroe, including Mary and
her family.
And what does Mary do?
She sets up a freedom schoolunder an oak tree on that union
base and it starts off with fivepeople, adults and children and
within two weeks there are 60folks meeting and gathering
(16:34):
under that freedom tree.
She continues to teach.
The American MissionaryAssociation from up north hears
about this black woman doingthis and they send resources
south to buy her a small houseso she can continue her teaching
, and they sent her a smallsalary.
She becomes the first blackteacher of record for a freedman
(16:57):
school.
Wow, ok, this is while blackpeople lay and waited the
precipice of freedom.
We don't know what the outcomeof this war is going to be but
she's getting us ready, right,mary, doesn't?
she didn't live to see the endof the Civil War, so she didn't
know the outcome.
She died in 1864.
(17:20):
That freedom tree still exists.
It is, in fact, the opening ofthe campus of Hampton University
, and when you think about thatschool, I want you to understand
it as a school that was builton the blood, sweat, tears and
freedom dreams of that Blackwoman who saw a future for us
(17:40):
where education would be thenecessary pillar to get us to
where we're going, whereeducation would be the necessary
pillar to get us to where we'regoing.
I want you to understand thepower of freedom dreaming,
because it is the most radicalform of political imagination
and it is the foundation thatactivates any movement.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Mm, I just need you to use that phrase again Freedom
dreaming.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Freedom dreaming that one Wow.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
That one and shout out to the historian Dr Robin DG
Kelly for coining that term forus, so I just want to give that
credit to him yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
So it's not about what we see in front of us,
especially in a time like this.
It's about dreaming forward.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It's what our minds see, if your mind can conceive
it.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Exactly and under those circumstances.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I can only imagine how difficult it was.
People probably thought thatyou know why is she doing this?
Wasting time getting us introuble.
You know, creating problems,this good trouble and the
bravery that it took yes, thatwas, it was illegal at that time
(19:00):
.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I just keep thinking of um uh, harriet tubman, and I
keep thinking about her in termsof her going back, um mary
going back, but also thatthere's so few of these women
that we know of by name andthat's one of the wonderful
(19:23):
things about your book that wecan do and because she wasn't
the only one, she wasn't theonly one at the root of
educating formerly enslavedpeople in America, and so it was
such an empowering experiencethat I had reading and then
(19:46):
reading the names, and thenanother name, and then another
name, of these women who startedthis work, and there's this
particular part that I didn'tknow at all, and that is that
educating Black people, orseeing the value of educating
(20:11):
Black people and starting theseBlack schools that preceded
educating White people.
So, if you can talk about that,we were in front of education.
That was our thing.
Yes, yeah.
Yeah, educating the masses wasour thing.
(20:31):
Yes, that then went.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat you uncovered there.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Well, let me take us back to this period, right at
the end of the Civil War, wherethe dust is still settling.
From that time, I want you toknow that after the Civil War,
there was no public educationsystem in the South for black or
(20:59):
white children.
For black or white children,yeah, school education was a
institution that was availableto the wealthy and privileged,
ok.
And this idea of universaleducation as a basic right for
(21:20):
every American citizen?
That was not a thing in theSouth.
It was newly freedAfrican-Americans, the freedmen
who.
What was the first thing thatblack Americans did once they,
once they, took their freedom?
They searched for theirfamilies to reunite, they got in
community and started buildingchurches.
(21:42):
And what did they often buildinside those churches?
Schools.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Education systems.
Education systems.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Schools were one of the main institutions, one of
the first things that newlyfreed African-Americans not only
built themselves but advocatedfor, and during that time we had
the Freedmen's Bureau.
Ok, ok, and what thatinstitution did?
I want you to understand it asone of America's very first
(22:12):
social safety systems.
Ok, so before Medicaid orMedicare or the GI Bill OK so
these are all, yeah, yeah yeah,and what does a federal social
safety agency do?
It ensures that our mostvulnerable populations have a
(22:35):
standard of what it means to beAmerican.
So, whether it is your elderlyveterans, our disabled brothers
and sisters, in this case, rightafter 250 years of
institutionalized chattelslavery, African-American.
So this social safety net.
(22:55):
It was in charge of theFreedmen's Bank, which gave
African-Americans theopportunity to save their money,
earn interest and buy land.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And buy land we did.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
During that period of reconstruction, black people
purchased 15 million acres ofland.
Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, without the 40 acres and a mule.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Without the 40 acres.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Without the 40 acres and a mule.
Also, during this time ofReconstruction era, with the
support of the Freedmen's Bureau, of Reconstruction era, with
the support of the Freedmen'sBureau, that institution also
helped negotiate labor contractsbetween white employers and
African-American laborers,because you know that was a new
dynamic in the South.
(23:45):
OK, but one of the most lastingimpacts of the Freedmen's Bureau
was they invested over fivemillion dollars, which is a
little over $130 million intoday's dollars, in building
schools throughout the South.
They built over 5,000 schoolsin a five-year period between
1865 and 1870.
(24:07):
And what that meant was, inaddition to the autonomous
private schools that Black folkswere setting up themselves, you
had this safety net, thisinstitution, the Freedmen's
Bureau that's ensuring thatcommunities have at least one
schoolhouse Right.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
You know from community to community A
standard, a standard.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
And it was black Americans who advocated for that
.
It was Black Americans whoinsisted that that be something
that these United States owed tothem in freedom.
And you saw a response, astrong response, from the white
South, first of all saying, holdon, we don't want black
(24:53):
Americans getting any education.
And also, but if they are goingto have education, our kids
should have it too.
And there you have the birth ofthe American public school
system in the South,nationalizing what we know today
as public education.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable,
unbelievable.
And a testament to the allboats with the, all boats rise
with the with the tides rise,yeah.
Raises all boats, and it'softentimes us, the, the, the,
(25:39):
the, the ones who have less thanthat are the inclusive right?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
yes, and we bring everyone in everyone up.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Right, it's, it's.
It's an incredible, um new fact.
That fact that you're bringingthis is not a new deal.
This is not what the governmentkind of handed out to us.
It began with us.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Self-agency.
That's right and that's what itis.
We recognized a need and,rather than wait for a handout
or wait for someone else to doit for us, that period of
reconstruction we saw so manygains in so many different
arenas and obviously we see whythat was so threatening to the
(26:29):
larger population.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
It was crushed.
It was crushed.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
I will also add to the scorecard 2,000 Black
elected officials serving inpolitical office at the state,
local and federal level to Blackcongresspeople.
Okay, so in that short time ofthat 12 years, during
Reconstruction, 12 years theprogress was unbelievable from
(26:58):
land ownership, education,political and civic engagement,
and there also you had theFreedmen's Bureau seating,
seating and supporting thefoundation of many of our HBCUs
which I also talk about in thebook.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, I definitely want to hear about the HBCUs,
because there's some nuancesthere which you bring out, which
again Girl, it's more thannuance.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It's like what the what?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I'm spilling the tea.
Yeah, you are spilling the tea.
Nuances.
I'm reading and I'm like whatthe what?
I'm spilling the tea.
Yeah, yeah, you are spillingthe tea.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Nuances.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
I'm reading and I'm like, but wait wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Wait a minute, you know, because we will get into
the HBCUs.
I just want to speak about theHaynes Normal and Industrial
Institute.
That's my favorite, that story,miss Lucy.
Miss Lucy yeah, go story MissLucy.
Miss Lucy is my favorite.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Oh, my goodness.
And ladies, why is it that youknow?
You say that these names, theseblack women's names, you're
reading some of their names forthe first time.
I learned their names for thefirst time, too, through this
research.
So this is important, thisstorytelling that we're doing
and saying their names LucyCraft Laney.
(28:17):
It's a form of what thebrilliant sociologist, dr Marcus
Anthony Hunter callsintellectual reparations.
It's a form of reparations forthe ideas that we've introduced
into this world and society thatwe don't get credit for.
And here in this book I had theopportunity to do that for
(28:40):
several black women,educationists who built schools,
built black private schoolsthat lasted for a century or
more.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
It seems like one book at a time, it seems like
one book at a time.
And what was most impressive ishow these ladies went north
soliciting Almost.
It reminded me like they wouldjust show up to these larger
organizations in the north andadvertise come in with flyers
about this is what we're doingdown south.
(29:08):
Can you give us a little money?
And this, and that it was soresourceful.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Yeah, I want you to understand these Black women
educationists.
So we'll go with LucyCraftlaney, because she was the
OG, she was the blueprint, okay.
Miss Lucy also was born duringslavery, okay, but she also was
born free.
Her parents insisted that shelearn to read and write, even
though it was illegal when shegrew up.
She gets, she's able tonavigate a high school education
(29:45):
for herself and becomes a partof the first graduating class of
Atlanta University, which istoday Clark.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Atlanta.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
University.
So she was there before Du Boisstepped on the scene as a
professor there.
Ok, miss Lucy taught, shebecame a teacher in the public
school system OK, for 10 years.
And it became very clear to herthat the state would not do
right by black children.
(30:13):
It was not yet ready to protectand nourish young black minds
in the way that they deserved.
So she wasn't saying that, youknow, she didn't want us to have
rights, but she very muchunderstood that the system was
going to fail our children.
So she went and founded her ownschool.
(30:33):
Miss Lucy didn't have no money,miss Lucy didn't have a
building.
Miss Lucy didn't have thebusiness training to know how to
do that.
And nonetheless, black womenare capable of the wholly
impossible.
So she just starts it and shestarts a school in the basement
of a church in Augusta, georgia.
(30:54):
Within a year she has over 200pupils.
She has started fundraisingprivate dollars from religious
institutions, individual wealthydonors from the North, black
and white of the likes ofeveryone, from the Rockefellers
and the Carnegie's to Madam CJ.
(31:15):
Walker herself was a major donorto her school and over time she
builds what goes from anelementary school.
It grows into a high school.
It takes up two city blocks inAugusta and for our listeners,
please go there, because itstands as a museum today.
Okay, and in addition to that,she founds the first Black
(31:42):
nursing school in the state ofGeorgia on that campus.
Why?
Because African-Americans wereexcluded, were not allowed to
attend the med school, but weneeded to be able to provide
access to health care for oneanother.
So you can see thisenterprising mind that was.
Lucy Craft Laney and every blackeducationist that I featured
(32:04):
through the book.
And I read this book becauseyou will just be not only
empowered by these stories, butyou'll fall in love with these
women.
Only empowered by these stories, but you'll fall in love with
these women, yes.
And they also have left usinstruction on how to move in
today, in such a time as this.
I want to remind you that MissLucy Craft Laney did this
without an endowment.
(32:24):
She had to rob Peter to payPaul and figure out how to raise
those dollars, year after year,to keep that school open.
It stayed open for over a halfa century.
It graduated thousands of Blackminds, so think generations of
our very first African-Americancollege graduates.
Many of them came from theHaynes Institute.
(32:46):
And this, again you can tracethis story back to the root was
her freedom dreams.
And she and she did all of thisin the gym in the Jim Crow
South, where African-Americansdidn't have the right to vote,
where they were excluded fromall manner of you know society
of national life.
(33:07):
And yet, and still, withouttaking one tax dollar, she did
all that.
So I want us to ask ourselveswhat is your freedom dream and
how are we taking the baton inthis leg of the relay to do our
part.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Okay, and I think was it Adam Clayton Powell that
said what's in your hand, youknow what's in your hand?
You know what's in your hand.
You know what I mean.
In her case, she didn't havevery much in her hand and look
what she did.
It was in her head and then inher heart.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
So I'm curious.
I have so many questions, youknow so you entitled your book
the Battle for the Black Mind,so I really want to kind of Dig
it.
How?
Because I know you probablyvetted many different titles.
Right, you have this body ofwork.
(34:09):
It's one of the most difficultthings.
Okay, what am I going to put onthe cover of this Beyond the
Beautiful Les?
Can you hold it up again so wecan just look at that beautiful
artwork?
We might want to mention theperson there.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
The artist and there's a story about the young
man that's on the cover as well.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So is that the tree at the bottom?
Is that the there's a tree onthe?
Speaker 3 (34:36):
back as well.
Yeah, I'm so glad y'all caughtthat.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yes, oh, yes, come on now, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
That is Very special.
Caught that.
Yes, oh, yes, come on now.
Oh, is it?
Yeah, that's, that is veryspecial actually.
Uh, um, the artist and I wentto hampton university, um, on a
field visit for this cover andand just walked the grounds
under that tree, under marysmith's's oak tree.
It was a part of the spiritualpractice that goes into my
(35:08):
writing practice.
It was also to allow us toembody visually.
You know how we wanted to usethis motif of the tree that you
kind of read throughout the book.
Yes, but that this line workthat you see on the cover, with
the tree in this young man'sshirt, is in fact the tree from
(35:35):
Hampton.
So we took images there and Iwill note the artist, charlie
Palmer, is also my dear husband.
Yes, that's my man dear husband.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Yes, that's my man.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Another talent beyond words.
So yeah, so talk about thebattle, Like why do you see this
as a battle?
And maybe bring it forward towhere we are now and and how we
can fight, because I want to winthe battle.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah, yeah, it looks like we're winning the battle,
you know.
I think that the masses need toknow that.
Well, the many people alreadyknow we're winning the battle.
That's why they're fightingharder.
But let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
It was.
It became clear to me veryearly on in the research that
everybody had a vested interestin black education.
Everybody cared about blackminds.
For some it was a matter ofnational security.
There was a real question aboutthe danger of allowing
(36:40):
African-Americans in freedom tohave access to education.
For some, the question was whatkind of education should black
folks have?
For others it was a question ofshould we have it at all?
Okay, you also had manyNorthern missionaries who had a
(37:02):
deep interest in helping tobuild up the black education
system.
Black and white missionarieswho dropped everything that they
had going on in their homes inConnecticut and Massachusetts
and Rhode Island and move southright after the Civil War and
lived there and lived and workedas teachers in many of these
(37:25):
freedmen schools.
They had an interest in theBlack mind.
Yeah, what was their motivation?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
What would make them?
Speaker 3 (37:33):
do that.
For some it was a proselytizingmission to reinforce a
religious education.
For others it, you know, it wasabout control, meaning, you
know, shaping the contours ofwhat black folks were allowed to
(37:58):
learn and what would be offlimits for us.
So you had a lot of differinginterest, but nobody had more of
an interest in Black educationthan Black Americans themselves.
So why I call this a battle andI dedicate two chapters
(38:21):
squarely on this topic?
Also, philanthropist what weknow today is like big
philanthropy, which were, youknow, predominantly white
institutions.
Big philanthropy was born onsupporting and financing the
spread of the education systemin the South.
(38:42):
They too had a specificinterest in black education.
Why?
Because who were America'sfirst philanthropists?
They were your robber baronsfrom the Gilded Age.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
They were your Carnegie's.
They were your.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
Rockefeller's and so on.
And what did they need?
An endless supply of manuallabor.
They wanted laborers who woulddo not think they wanted to
break unions OK.
They wanted to save costs andstop having to import labor from
Europe when they could just tapinto and exploit the potential
(39:21):
labor pool of black Americans inthe South into and exploit the
potential labor pool of blackAmericans in the South.
So you have all these forceslanding on this battleground of
the black education system.
That's why it's called Battlefor the Black Mind.
It's not just a history.
It's not just a tale of whatone, any one group, did.
(39:41):
This is a story about power.
Think of a tug of war.
But it's not just two ways,it's multiple ropes trying to
pull that thing and shape thatthing.
Because we all understandknowledge is power and whoever
would win this battle would beable to shape the future for
generations to come.
And that is why today we areseeing the same battles
(40:06):
happening.
Where's that battlefield?
Our American education systemis once again under attack.
And there are all thesecompeting interests because we
know that the moral conscious ofthe nation is, and has always
been, rooted in the school yeah,right education right, oh my
(40:27):
gosh, wow, okay, so we won't gointo this too much, but I did
want to ask you to touch on theum, um, how, um?
Speaker 1 (40:39):
w eb du bois and um, um and washington, what's it?
It's not um, I'm just WEB DuBois and Washington.
It's not.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Washington.
I'm just reading the.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Miscommunication of the Negro, and say the name
Leslie Washington.
What's his first name?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Booker T Washington.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Booker T Washington.
Thank you, how those two menwere at odds, if you could just
kind of mention that.
I just want to kind of, becauseI know a lot of people kind of
hear about that and this isphilanthropists.
Thanks to Dr Brown's book, I'mlearning this, how these
(41:18):
philanthropists got involved.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Inserted themselves into the fight and chose sides
and stirred the pot and becausethey had an interest.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
It was messy Because they had an interest it was
messy, yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
So I will be brief and I won't share too much,
because I want our readers andfriends to really dig into this
chapter.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
No spoiler alerts.
No spoiler alerts.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
But I will say this I have a whole chapter on the
beef between Booker T Washingtonand WEB Du Bois, and this is
really important because I wanteverybody to understand what
that battle was really about yes, and the what it did for black
political thought at the time.
So I say that before there wasKendrick and Drake, before Jay-Z
(42:24):
and Nas, before Biggie andTupac, this beef between WEB Du
Bois and Booker T Washington,that was.
That was the original disc tape.
That was the original disc tape.
Never before in Americanhistory did we see two black
titans come out on the publicstage and go at it, yeah, and
(42:48):
put all their business out inthe street and we don't do that
right and it and it wasimportant and and I I say that
in the book because I want to,um, I want to remind us that
book because I want to.
I want to remind us that disctapes are, in fact, an important
genre in African Americanhistory.
(43:10):
It is, yes, it's the beefbetween the two figures, but
what it is those two figuresstand in for and they are
avatars for different ideologies.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
That we're not a monolith, and that's just what
I'm saying.
We are not a monolith.
Yes, and that's just what I'msaying.
We are not a monolith.
So it's not one thought.
It's such a diversity ofthought and opinions.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Malcolm and Martin all the way down.
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
And what the disc tape as a genre does, and I love
that you brought in Malcolm andMartin just another binary that
we can think about it.
What the genre does is itallows room for everyday folks
to get into the politicaldiscourse and we start having
(43:56):
these discussions in our home,in our communities.
We start beefing, but that isthe fertilizer for political
action.
So so I didn't want to minimizethat it really, it really is a
form.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
OK, it's an aesthetic , a black aesthetic.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
And what were Booker T Washington and Du Bois?
What was at the core of theirbeef?
It was over black education.
Their beef it was over blackeducation.
It was this beef.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Each one had different ideas about.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Yeah, industrial education or liberal education?
Which one was the pathway?
I do believe that both of thesemen had the same destination in
mind at the end of theirfreedom dreams for black people
they wanted us to be free,healthy, whole and
self-determined.
However, the pathway for howthey thought we should get there
were diametrically opposed andthey beefed about that
(44:57):
vehemently.
And what is important also,that I want you all to have an
open mind about when you readthis book, because folks be on
my social media, coming at my,coming at my neck, because I've
talked about some of I talkabout some of your heroes in
this book, that criticaldiscourse.
(45:20):
We need to be able to askourselves questions, to
interrogate these facets of ourpolitical history, because they
will inform us and equip us fortoday and what we know, what we
saw from these men.
Even though they beefed for theentirety of Booker T
(45:42):
Washington's life, him and DuBois continue to write each
other letters.
They continue to sit on panelswith one another yes.
So what that told me was youknow they both love black people
enough to fight it out, butstill get back in there because
they, they both knew what we'regoing.
(46:03):
So that that lesson there is.
Y'all, we can't be cancelingeach other this cancel culture.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Come on now.
Yeah, and the importance oftruth and not hiding the truth.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I listen.
Really, this book ismind-expanding.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
That's a great way to say it.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
I believe Leslie and I have been talking about AI a
lot.
It's one of the things that wefear, but we've decided to look
at it in the face and kind of.
And as I read your book andeven now hearing you kind of go
(46:50):
into it a little more deeply,I'm thinking about this time.
What are we prepared to do thistime?
What are our freedom dreams?
Speaker 2 (47:01):
this time, this time.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
And a call to action you
Speaker 2 (47:06):
know to really make those freedom dreams a reality.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
So let us remind ourselves today, like we're not
just going to do democracybecause that is a verb, we're
not going to take it for grantedand think it's something that's
just going to fall in our lapOK.
But when we do democracy there,it matters how we show up to
(47:33):
yes and we can show.
We can show up with our headsheld high, knowing that we stand
on the shoulders of ourancestors, who have assured the
relay for us generation aftergeneration after generation, and
did it with grace and aplomband love and radical freedom,
(47:54):
dreaming and politicalimagination.
So how dare we think that we'regoing to be woe is me and
wallowing in fear and analysis,paralysis and feeling
overwhelmed like there's nothingwe can do.
Perhaps today might be difficult, but I'm here to tell you that
(48:14):
there is no fascist regime inhistory that's ever lasted.
It's empirically a fact thatthese types of regimes do not
last.
So what does that tell us?
While we're the small axes fallin those big trees of
oppression, standing up everyday doing the things that we
(48:35):
need to do to take our democracyback, we also have to have a
mindset of those freedom dreamsof what comes after, a mindset
of those freedom dreams of whatcomes after.
What United States do we wantfor ourselves to live in, to be
able to grow old in for ourchildren and grandchildren, for
(48:57):
those who are not born yet ofour families?
And we have to imagine that andshow up in that form.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Okay, that's what Miss Lucy did, that's what Mary
did and Mary did, and yeah, yeah, they weren't thinking for
themselves.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yeah, that's right, okay, oh my gosh, I got chills
Girl you just gave me.
I like my eyes got a little wet.
I'm like sweating yeah, butyeah.
Like sweating yeah, but yeah,it's real.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
I appreciate the opportunity whenever I get to
talk about this.
You know, sometimes when weread books about our history
that deal especially with thisperiod of time of Jim Crow, it's
like you got to brace yourselfand gird your loins because it
was hard, it was heartbreakingand an all manner of injustice
(49:52):
and terror, and I'm notdiminishing that.
But I was also reading thearchive for hope.
I was also reading the archivefor joy, yes, you know, because
we had that too and it wasn'thard to find.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
And that's what I felt reading these early stories
about what she did, what.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Yes, yeah.
So I think that's also, and weneed those reminders because
it's easy to identify and namethe things that aren't working.
But there is so much that wasbeing done on the ground then
Our Lucys, our Marys, ourCharlotte Hawkins Browns, but
there's so much that is beingdone on the ground right now,
(50:36):
today, and we cannot lose sightof what we are doing.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
That's right.
Wow, sight of what we are doing.
That's right.
That's right.
And I'm going to bring this toa close and again talk about
legacy.
You know, even if you don'tfeel like you're the one,
because it only takes one, findorganizations, be in community
where it's already started.
It's already started and youcan join, link up, as we say
(51:08):
Jameek, you can link up withwork that is already going on
and see how you can bring yourgifts and talents to that work.
That is how this happens.
These women started schools.
They were not alone.
They had to get resources.
They were resourceful.
Be the resources.
Be, the resources to help to putthese changes that we want to
(51:30):
see in place.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
But even more than that, ange, and I think that
what's easier than that, drCorita, as an oral historian, we
just got to keep talking aboutit.
We just got to keep talkingabout it.
I mean this book, I mean wejust got to talk about it.
Hey, did you know such and such?
Let me show you.
(51:53):
Let me show you.
You ain't going to believe this.
Look at the picture.
Speaker 3 (51:57):
Look at this tree.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
We just have to keep talking about it.
Yeah, yes.
That's a part of our historytoo, and that is also a part of
our history.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
The griot part of our history where we share stories,
we pass on stories.
Yeah, we appreciate you beinghere so very much.
Yes, yes, we applaud your work.
We're here for you if there'sanything that you believe we can
do, even in the farthestreaches of your mind, if you can
(52:26):
think of anything that Leslieor I can be of service to your
work we are here for you, we arethe aunties.
We are here for you and we arejust cheering you on with
everything and keeping you inprayer, of course, oh, thank you
yes.
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
Wow, I appreciate that.
Thank you, oh, wow, appreciatethat.
And I'm like sweating, I'm likegetting tearful and what a way
to end.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
But you know why?
Because I feel it.
I feel it in my spirit, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
So I got to say this has been another episode of
Black Boomer Besties fromBrooklyn, brooklyn.
Hey Ange, hey Liz, How's it going?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Very well Good.
Yes, Today's a good day.
Today is an excellent day.
I, you know I was a littlenervous about this, right?
Yes, and you had to kind oftalk me off the edge.
Yes, because that's what I do.
Yes, Listen, we have somebodyhere that I am so proud of and
so happy that she agreed to beon our podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
We're like aunties.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
We're like aunties, but I can't wait for you to meet
this dynamic lady.
That one right there.
Oh, you just wait.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Just hold one second.
Hold one second.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
But before I get all into that, I just want to say
welcome to another episode ofBlack Boomer Besties from
Brooklyn.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I'm Angela and that's Leslie, my best friend of
almost 50 years.
We are two free thinking 60something year old black women.
We have decided to be more boldand joyful in our lives and we
invite you to join us.
Today we're going to be talkingabout a topic that comes up
(01:10):
quite a bit on our show, podcastAll the Things, and that is
around legacy.
What is your legacy, how tocreate legacy, how to create
legacy, how to rethink legacy,and today we have a guest that
(01:31):
is such an example of that.
We're going to get to know alittle bit about her through her
bio, but also just how she gotto this place, where she decided
to do this really importantwork for the Black community and
everyone across the world.
I'm going to let Leslie readher bio and then we'll jump in.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Dr Corita L Brown is an NAACP Image Award winning
author and public intellectualwinning author and public
intellectual.
A professor at Emory University, Brown is a leading scholar of
systemic racism and the study ofBlack life.
Her work, which spans over adecade of groundbreaking
(02:17):
research and analysis, hasearned her both national and
international acclaim.
She is the co-author of the newBrownies book, A Love Letter to
Black Families, continuing thelegacy of WEB Du Bois by
centering Black narratives andempowering Black futures.
(02:37):
Dr Brown has made many mediaappearances.
You can find her work and hertalking and her scholarly work
all over the Internet if you'reinterested in looking, and you
will be.
She's made media appearances inMother Jones, in Ms Magazine
(02:58):
and Washington Post, among otherthings.
I can talk about some of hereducational background, but what
I do want to say is that sheand my bestie here have
something in common They've bothwent to University of
Pennsylvania.
So it's okay, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I'll just be over here on the side.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
But I bring to you right now Dr Corita L Brown
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Welcome, oh my goodness, hey besties, hey
darlings.
It is such a joy and an honorto be here sitting on the couch
with you all this evening.
And I really do appreciate theinvitation.
Thank you, it's great to haveyou.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
It's great to have you.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
So one of the things that I am just so impressed by
is your latest book not thefirst, your latest book that I
think it was published or itcame out in May of this year, so
it's brand new.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Brand spanking new.
It's so pretty, it's so pretty.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
The battle for the black mind.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Let's hold it forward a little bit, so it's less
shiny.
No, not yeah, so it's lessblurry.
Beautiful, there it is.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Because we got to talk about that cover.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll talk about this
cover, but this right now isrequired reading.
Certainly get your copy beforeit gets on the banned list.
We talked about that and we cankind of smile about that, but
that's no joke for real.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Books like this have so much rich information and
almost marching orders that Ican understand and see why many
of the masses don't want us toknow about these things.
It's empowering.
And we're going to get into,and it's a battle, and we're
going to get into some of thereasons why right now.
So, Dr Corita, come on in andtell us about this scholarly
(05:11):
piece of work that I'm just soproud of.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Battle for the Black Mind.
This is a work that has beeneight years in the making for me
.
Oh wow, Seven years ofmulti-sided archival research
across the United States and inSouth Africa, where I was on a
dogged pursuit to understandwhat exactly was a colored
(05:41):
school.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Okay, what exactly was a?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
colored school, ok, what we had in this country for
almost a century, and it'ssometimes like it gets lost upon
us.
I know, even for me, that foralmost 100 years in these United
States, the American schoolsystem was, by design, separate
and unequal and intentionallydesigned to be inferior.
(06:05):
Right Now, that's not whatnecessarily happened in
segregated schools, but that wasan intention and I wanted to
understand not only what thatwas segregated schools, racially
segregated schools I wanted tounderstand the ideology, the
(06:26):
philosophy that the architectsof the segregated system had in
mind for black folks and, ofcourse, the main part about this
book what black folks did inspite of this system to not only
survive but to thrive and tosituate education as a
cornerstone of the long blackfreedom struggle.
(06:49):
So that was my mission withthis book.
As I mentioned, seven years ofresearch, one year of writing
and the book came out.
As you mentioned, may 2025, forthe 71st anniversary of Brown
versus Board of Education.
For the 71st anniversary ofBrown versus Board of Education,
during a time where thisoccupier in the White House has
(07:16):
actively started the process ofdismantling the Department of
Education, has a front frontalassault on the higher education
system writ large in the UnitedStates.
So this book needed to come outin such a time as this, and I
want you all to experience it asa history of black education,
(07:38):
but also as a playbook.
Ok, because we got the recipesin the blueprints.
Our elders and ancestors leftthose for us and understand it
as a call to action.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Beautiful, beautiful.
So there is um, we, leslie andI, both read the book.
It is, um, it is uh, it is, asLeslie said, required reading.
Um, it deserves to be on thebookshelf and every on the
coffee table, because those arethe ones that people pick up and
(08:10):
flip through.
Every home needs to have a copyof this.
I purposefully did not statethe racial group of the home.
Every home should have thislevel of education, of
understanding how this all began.
(08:32):
There's a particular passagethat I've asked Dr Brown to read
because when I read it, it justmade me see okay, this is why
she did this for us, this is whyshe did this for us.
This was the compelling thatshe felt.
(08:54):
And you know, whenever we bringa guest on and they have
accomplished tremendous body ofwork, accomplished tremendous
body of work, I always thinkit's important for us to know
who they are and what drivesthem, so that you can see
yourself as not at the end, butkind of where it all began and
(09:18):
what was the stirring, so thatyou can feel that, and whatever
your legacy is, that you canbegin creating or continue
creating, you can use theirexample.
So, dr, we typically call firstname Dr Corita.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Just just call me Corita.
We're amongst besties here.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Absolutely, and we also like to give props.
So you work hard for that, drGirl, you work hard for it.
And we also like to give props.
So you work hard for that, drGirl, you work hard for it.
So if you could read, startingon page 148, the Blackademics
and then ending with Blackeducation tradition, that would
be great.
You guys listen up.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Sure, I've got my copy here.
Y'all Yay, y'all Yay.
These black academics anddozens of others took the focus
off of the tired old question,what's wrong with black people?
And shifted it towards the realquestion what is wrong with the
(10:20):
system?
They weren't interested intreating symptoms.
They were looking for the rootcauses of inequality symptoms.
They were looking for the rootcauses of inequality.
This is what we callemancipatory sociology, a
sociology that not onlydiagnoses the problem but also
offers solutions, pullinginjustice up by its roots and
dismantling systems that makelife hard for some and easier
(10:42):
for others, make life hard forsome and easier for others.
They use sociology as a mightyweapon to attack oppressive
systems at their core, andthat's the foundation of Black
sociology and it's a legacy thatruns deep in my veins.
As a Black woman sociologist,my work isn't just academic,
it's personal.
I stand on the shoulders ofgiants like the ones mentioned
(11:06):
above, those who dared to usesociology as a tool for our
liberation, not our oppression.
My own scholarship delves intothe historical roots of systemic
racism, revealing the innerworkings of how the structures
that confine us today built longbefore we were born.
(11:27):
I've traced these systems fromthe institutionalization of the
transatlantic slave trade inmedieval times all the way to
the 17th century, to theAfrican-American great migration
of the first half of the 20thcentury.
This book on racial inequalityin education is about exposing
the machinery that has kept usfrom our full potential and
(11:51):
celebrating our rich Blackeducational tradition.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Well, there you go.
Well, there you go.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Thank you.
Emancipation of the enslaved,of those held in bondage who
were not allowed to read andwrite in English.
They came with language butthey weren't allowed to read and
write in English.
And how, these women, despiteall of the cruelty, all of the
wickedness that was going on,that they established these ways
(12:48):
of teaching Can you talk to usabout?
I know you have a favorite, Iknow you have a favorite, you
know, but it changes every time.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
These women who are the protagonists of the book,
they were some bad sisters and Isee parts of myself, parts of
my mother, parts of mygrandmother, the women in my
life, in all of these women.
So you know, I'll pick one.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, you'll pick one .
Yeah, you'll pick one.
I don't remember her name, butshe is the one that started
teaching under the tree.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
The book maybe?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yes, and there's a spoiler alert about what that
tree is up to now.
But yeah, if you could tell usher story, that is a pretty
incredible, incredible story.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Mary Smith Peake.
She was born a free Black womanof color during slavery,
meaning that although she livedin Virginia, which was a slave
state, her family were notenslaved and what that afforded
(14:13):
Mary?
Her parents sent her north toDC where she was able to access
an education.
Mary almost completes highschool and upon attaining that
education she could have stayednorth.
She could have escaped thehorrors of living in a slave
society.
But no, she goes back to herhometown of Norfolk and then
(14:37):
Hampton, virginia.
And what does she do with thateducation?
She got what she do, she, she.
Mary was up to things.
She starts a, a dressmaking uh,business, right, and that's
what she's doing during the day,because it's providing her
cover for what she's really upto.
Mary smith peak is sneaking onto plantations teaching enslaved
(15:01):
black Americans how to read,write and what she calls cipher.
Why?
Because she knew she knew acouple of things.
She knew that knowledge ispower, and so did our enslaved
brothers and sisters who were,who were working with Mary at
that time, also knew that a daywould come when her people would
(15:27):
be free and they would needthat to be able to guide their
pathway into freedom, libertyand citizenship.
So she saw something, she hadvision Right.
And she, she didn't wait for itto be true, she didn't wait for
signs of it to be true.
She was doing this.
Y'all back in the 1840sUnbelievable.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
It was a knowing a knowing that she had.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
So 20 years before the Emancipation Proclamation.
However, you know she lives inHampton Virginia.
During the time that the CivilWar comes, the Confederate Army
burns Hampton Virginia down tothe ground.
The townspeople, especiallyenslaved Black Americans, run to
(16:10):
the nearest Union Army camp,fort Monroe, including Mary and
her family.
And what does Mary do?
She sets up a freedom schoolunder an oak tree on that union
base and it starts off with fivepeople, adults and children and
within two weeks there are 60folks meeting and gathering
(16:34):
under that freedom tree.
She continues to teach.
The American MissionaryAssociation from up north hears
about this black woman doingthis and they send resources
south to buy her a small houseso she can continue her teaching
, and they sent her a smallsalary.
She becomes the first blackteacher of record for a freedman
(16:57):
school.
Wow, ok, this is while blackpeople lay and waited the
precipice of freedom.
We don't know what the outcomeof this war is going to be but
she's getting us ready, right,mary, doesn't?
she didn't live to see the endof the Civil War, so she didn't
know the outcome.
She died in 1864.
(17:20):
That freedom tree still exists.
It is, in fact, the opening ofthe campus of Hampton University
, and when you think about thatschool, I want you to understand
it as a school that was builton the blood, sweat, tears and
freedom dreams of that Blackwoman who saw a future for us
(17:40):
where education would be thenecessary pillar to get us to
where we're going, whereeducation would be the necessary
pillar to get us to where we'regoing.
I want you to understand thepower of freedom dreaming,
because it is the most radicalform of political imagination
and it is the foundation thatactivates any movement.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Mm, I just need you to use that phrase again Freedom
dreaming.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Freedom dreaming that one Wow.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
That one and shout out to the historian Dr Robin DG
Kelly for coining that term forus, so I just want to give that
credit to him yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
So it's not about what we see in front of us,
especially in a time like this.
It's about dreaming forward.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It's what our minds see, if your mind can conceive
it.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Exactly and under those circumstances.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I can only imagine how difficult it was.
People probably thought thatyou know why is she doing this?
Wasting time getting us introuble.
You know, creating problems,this good trouble and the
bravery that it took yes, thatwas, it was illegal at that time
(19:00):
.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I just keep thinking of um uh, harriet tubman, and I
keep thinking about her in termsof her going back, um mary
going back, but also thatthere's so few of these women
that we know of by name andthat's one of the wonderful
(19:23):
things about your book that wecan do and because she wasn't
the only one, she wasn't theonly one at the root of
educating formerly enslavedpeople in America, and so it was
such an empowering experiencethat I had reading and then
(19:46):
reading the names, and thenanother name, and then another
name, of these women who startedthis work, and there's this
particular part that I didn'tknow at all, and that is that
educating Black people, orseeing the value of educating
(20:11):
Black people and starting theseBlack schools that preceded
educating White people.
So, if you can talk about that,we were in front of education.
That was our thing.
Yes, yeah.
Yeah, educating the masses wasour thing.
(20:31):
Yes, that then went.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat you uncovered there.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Well, let me take us back to this period, right at
the end of the Civil War, wherethe dust is still settling.
From that time, I want you toknow that after the Civil War,
there was no public educationsystem in the South for black or
(20:59):
white children.
For black or white children,yeah, school education was a
institution that was availableto the wealthy and privileged,
ok.
And this idea of universaleducation as a basic right for
(21:20):
every American citizen?
That was not a thing in theSouth.
It was newly freedAfrican-Americans, the freedmen
who.
What was the first thing thatblack Americans did once they,
once they, took their freedom?
They searched for theirfamilies to reunite, they got in
community and started buildingchurches.
(21:42):
And what did they often buildinside those churches?
Schools.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Education systems.
Education systems.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Schools were one of the main institutions, one of
the first things that newlyfreed African-Americans not only
built themselves but advocatedfor, and during that time we had
the Freedmen's Bureau.
Ok, ok, and what thatinstitution did?
I want you to understand it asone of America's very first
(22:12):
social safety systems.
Ok, so before Medicaid orMedicare or the GI Bill OK so
these are all, yeah, yeah yeah,and what does a federal social
safety agency do?
It ensures that our mostvulnerable populations have a
(22:35):
standard of what it means to beAmerican.
So, whether it is your elderlyveterans, our disabled brothers
and sisters, in this case, rightafter 250 years of
institutionalized chattelslavery, African-American.
So this social safety net.
(22:55):
It was in charge of theFreedmen's Bank, which gave
African-Americans theopportunity to save their money,
earn interest and buy land.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And buy land we did.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
During that period of reconstruction, black people
purchased 15 million acres ofland.
Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, without the 40 acres and a mule.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Without the 40 acres.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Without the 40 acres and a mule.
Also, during this time ofReconstruction era, with the
support of the Freedmen's Bureau, of Reconstruction era, with
the support of the Freedmen'sBureau, that institution also
helped negotiate labor contractsbetween white employers and
African-American laborers,because you know that was a new
dynamic in the South.
(23:45):
OK, but one of the most lastingimpacts of the Freedmen's Bureau
was they invested over fivemillion dollars, which is a
little over $130 million intoday's dollars, in building
schools throughout the South.
They built over 5,000 schoolsin a five-year period between
1865 and 1870.
(24:07):
And what that meant was, inaddition to the autonomous
private schools that Black folkswere setting up themselves, you
had this safety net, thisinstitution, the Freedmen's
Bureau that's ensuring thatcommunities have at least one
schoolhouse Right.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
You know from community to community A
standard, a standard.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
And it was black Americans who advocated for that
.
It was Black Americans whoinsisted that that be something
that these United States owed tothem in freedom.
And you saw a response, astrong response, from the white
South, first of all saying, holdon, we don't want black
(24:53):
Americans getting any education.
And also, but if they are goingto have education, our kids
should have it too.
And there you have the birth ofthe American public school
system in the South,nationalizing what we know today
as public education.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable,
unbelievable.
And a testament to the allboats with the, all boats rise
with the with the tides rise,yeah.
Raises all boats, and it'softentimes us, the, the, the,
(25:39):
the, the ones who have less thanthat are the inclusive right?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
yes, and we bring everyone in everyone up.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Right, it's, it's.
It's an incredible, um new fact.
That fact that you're bringingthis is not a new deal.
This is not what the governmentkind of handed out to us.
It began with us.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Self-agency.
That's right and that's what itis.
We recognized a need and,rather than wait for a handout
or wait for someone else to doit for us, that period of
reconstruction we saw so manygains in so many different
arenas and obviously we see whythat was so threatening to the
(26:29):
larger population.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
It was crushed.
It was crushed.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
I will also add to the scorecard 2,000 Black
elected officials serving inpolitical office at the state,
local and federal level to Blackcongresspeople.
Okay, so in that short time ofthat 12 years, during
Reconstruction, 12 years theprogress was unbelievable from
(26:58):
land ownership, education,political and civic engagement,
and there also you had theFreedmen's Bureau seating,
seating and supporting thefoundation of many of our HBCUs
which I also talk about in thebook.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, I definitely want to hear about the HBCUs,
because there's some nuancesthere which you bring out, which
again Girl, it's more thannuance.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It's like what the what?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I'm spilling the tea.
Yeah, you are spilling the tea.
Nuances.
I'm reading and I'm like whatthe what?
I'm spilling the tea.
Yeah, yeah, you are spillingthe tea.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Nuances.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
I'm reading and I'm like, but wait wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Wait a minute, you know, because we will get into
the HBCUs.
I just want to speak about theHaynes Normal and Industrial
Institute.
That's my favorite, that story,miss Lucy.
Miss Lucy yeah, go story MissLucy.
Miss Lucy is my favorite.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Oh, my goodness.
And ladies, why is it that youknow?
You say that these names, theseblack women's names, you're
reading some of their names forthe first time.
I learned their names for thefirst time, too, through this
research.
So this is important, thisstorytelling that we're doing
and saying their names LucyCraft Laney.
(28:17):
It's a form of what thebrilliant sociologist, dr Marcus
Anthony Hunter callsintellectual reparations.
It's a form of reparations forthe ideas that we've introduced
into this world and society thatwe don't get credit for.
And here in this book I had theopportunity to do that for
(28:40):
several black women,educationists who built schools,
built black private schoolsthat lasted for a century or
more.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
It seems like one book at a time, it seems like
one book at a time.
And what was most impressive ishow these ladies went north
soliciting Almost.
It reminded me like they wouldjust show up to these larger
organizations in the north andadvertise come in with flyers
about this is what we're doingdown south.
(29:08):
Can you give us a little money?
And this, and that it was soresourceful.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Yeah, I want you to understand these Black women
educationists.
So we'll go with LucyCraftlaney, because she was the
OG, she was the blueprint, okay.
Miss Lucy also was born duringslavery, okay, but she also was
born free.
Her parents insisted that shelearn to read and write, even
though it was illegal when shegrew up.
She gets, she's able tonavigate a high school education
(29:45):
for herself and becomes a partof the first graduating class of
Atlanta University, which istoday Clark.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Atlanta.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
University.
So she was there before Du Boisstepped on the scene as a
professor there.
Ok, miss Lucy taught, shebecame a teacher in the public
school system OK, for 10 years.
And it became very clear to herthat the state would not do
right by black children.
(30:13):
It was not yet ready to protectand nourish young black minds
in the way that they deserved.
So she wasn't saying that, youknow, she didn't want us to have
rights, but she very muchunderstood that the system was
going to fail our children.
So she went and founded her ownschool.
(30:33):
Miss Lucy didn't have no money,miss Lucy didn't have a
building.
Miss Lucy didn't have thebusiness training to know how to
do that.
And nonetheless, black womenare capable of the wholly
impossible.
So she just starts it and shestarts a school in the basement
of a church in Augusta, georgia.
(30:54):
Within a year she has over 200pupils.
She has started fundraisingprivate dollars from religious
institutions, individual wealthydonors from the North, black
and white of the likes ofeveryone, from the Rockefellers
and the Carnegie's to Madam CJ.
(31:15):
Walker herself was a major donorto her school and over time she
builds what goes from anelementary school.
It grows into a high school.
It takes up two city blocks inAugusta and for our listeners,
please go there, because itstands as a museum today.
Okay, and in addition to that,she founds the first Black
(31:42):
nursing school in the state ofGeorgia on that campus.
Why?
Because African-Americans wereexcluded, were not allowed to
attend the med school, but weneeded to be able to provide
access to health care for oneanother.
So you can see thisenterprising mind that was.
Lucy Craft Laney and every blackeducationist that I featured
(32:04):
through the book.
And I read this book becauseyou will just be not only
empowered by these stories, butyou'll fall in love with these
women.
Only empowered by these stories, but you'll fall in love with
these women, yes.
And they also have left usinstruction on how to move in
today, in such a time as this.
I want to remind you that MissLucy Craft Laney did this
without an endowment.
(32:24):
She had to rob Peter to payPaul and figure out how to raise
those dollars, year after year,to keep that school open.
It stayed open for over a halfa century.
It graduated thousands of Blackminds, so think generations of
our very first African-Americancollege graduates.
Many of them came from theHaynes Institute.
(32:46):
And this, again you can tracethis story back to the root was
her freedom dreams.
And she and she did all of thisin the gym in the Jim Crow
South, where African-Americansdidn't have the right to vote,
where they were excluded fromall manner of you know society
of national life.
(33:07):
And yet, and still, withouttaking one tax dollar, she did
all that.
So I want us to ask ourselveswhat is your freedom dream and
how are we taking the baton inthis leg of the relay to do our
part.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Okay, and I think was it Adam Clayton Powell that
said what's in your hand, youknow what's in your hand?
You know what's in your hand.
You know what I mean.
In her case, she didn't havevery much in her hand and look
what she did.
It was in her head and then inher heart.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
So I'm curious.
I have so many questions, youknow so you entitled your book
the Battle for the Black Mind,so I really want to kind of Dig
it.
How?
Because I know you probablyvetted many different titles.
Right, you have this body ofwork.
(34:09):
It's one of the most difficultthings.
Okay, what am I going to put onthe cover of this Beyond the
Beautiful Les?
Can you hold it up again so wecan just look at that beautiful
artwork?
We might want to mention theperson there.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
The artist and there's a story about the young
man that's on the cover as well.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So is that the tree at the bottom?
Is that the there's a tree onthe?
Speaker 3 (34:36):
back as well.
Yeah, I'm so glad y'all caughtthat.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yes, oh, yes, come on now, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
That is Very special.
Caught that.
Yes, oh, yes, come on now.
Oh, is it?
Yeah, that's, that is veryspecial actually.
Uh, um, the artist and I wentto hampton university, um, on a
field visit for this cover andand just walked the grounds
under that tree, under marysmith's's oak tree.
It was a part of the spiritualpractice that goes into my
(35:08):
writing practice.
It was also to allow us toembody visually.
You know how we wanted to usethis motif of the tree that you
kind of read throughout the book.
Yes, but that this line workthat you see on the cover, with
the tree in this young man'sshirt, is in fact the tree from
(35:35):
Hampton.
So we took images there and Iwill note the artist, charlie
Palmer, is also my dear husband.
Yes, that's my man dear husband.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Yes, that's my man.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Another talent beyond words.
So yeah, so talk about thebattle, Like why do you see this
as a battle?
And maybe bring it forward towhere we are now and and how we
can fight, because I want to winthe battle.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah, yeah, it looks like we're winning the battle,
you know.
I think that the masses need toknow that.
Well, the many people alreadyknow we're winning the battle.
That's why they're fightingharder.
But let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
It was.
It became clear to me veryearly on in the research that
everybody had a vested interestin black education.
Everybody cared about blackminds.
For some it was a matter ofnational security.
There was a real question aboutthe danger of allowing
(36:40):
African-Americans in freedom tohave access to education.
For some, the question was whatkind of education should black
folks have?
For others it was a question ofshould we have it at all?
Okay, you also had manyNorthern missionaries who had a
(37:02):
deep interest in helping tobuild up the black education
system.
Black and white missionarieswho dropped everything that they
had going on in their homes inConnecticut and Massachusetts
and Rhode Island and move southright after the Civil War and
lived there and lived and workedas teachers in many of these
(37:25):
freedmen schools.
They had an interest in theBlack mind.
Yeah, what was their motivation?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
What would make them?
Speaker 3 (37:33):
do that.
For some it was a proselytizingmission to reinforce a
religious education.
For others it, you know, it wasabout control, meaning, you
know, shaping the contours ofwhat black folks were allowed to
(37:58):
learn and what would be offlimits for us.
So you had a lot of differinginterest, but nobody had more of
an interest in Black educationthan Black Americans themselves.
So why I call this a battle andI dedicate two chapters
(38:21):
squarely on this topic?
Also, philanthropist what weknow today is like big
philanthropy, which were, youknow, predominantly white
institutions.
Big philanthropy was born onsupporting and financing the
spread of the education systemin the South.
(38:42):
They too had a specificinterest in black education.
Why?
Because who were America'sfirst philanthropists?
They were your robber baronsfrom the Gilded Age.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
They were your Carnegie's.
They were your.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
Rockefeller's and so on.
And what did they need?
An endless supply of manuallabor.
They wanted laborers who woulddo not think they wanted to
break unions OK.
They wanted to save costs andstop having to import labor from
Europe when they could just tapinto and exploit the potential
(39:21):
labor pool of black Americans inthe South into and exploit the
potential labor pool of blackAmericans in the South.
So you have all these forceslanding on this battleground of
the black education system.
That's why it's called Battlefor the Black Mind.
It's not just a history.
It's not just a tale of whatone, any one group, did.
(39:41):
This is a story about power.
Think of a tug of war.
But it's not just two ways,it's multiple ropes trying to
pull that thing and shape thatthing.
Because we all understandknowledge is power and whoever
would win this battle would beable to shape the future for
generations to come.
And that is why today we areseeing the same battles
(40:06):
happening.
Where's that battlefield?
Our American education systemis once again under attack.
And there are all thesecompeting interests because we
know that the moral conscious ofthe nation is, and has always
been, rooted in the school yeah,right education right, oh my
(40:27):
gosh, wow, okay, so we won't gointo this too much, but I did
want to ask you to touch on theum, um, how, um?
Speaker 1 (40:39):
w eb du bois and um, um and washington, what's it?
It's not um, I'm just WEB DuBois and Washington.
It's not.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Washington.
I'm just reading the.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Miscommunication of the Negro, and say the name
Leslie Washington.
What's his first name?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Booker T Washington.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Booker T Washington.
Thank you, how those two menwere at odds, if you could just
kind of mention that.
I just want to kind of, becauseI know a lot of people kind of
hear about that and this isphilanthropists.
Thanks to Dr Brown's book, I'mlearning this, how these
(41:18):
philanthropists got involved.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Inserted themselves into the fight and chose sides
and stirred the pot and becausethey had an interest.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
It was messy Because they had an interest it was
messy, yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
So I will be brief and I won't share too much,
because I want our readers andfriends to really dig into this
chapter.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
No spoiler alerts.
No spoiler alerts.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
But I will say this I have a whole chapter on the
beef between Booker T Washingtonand WEB Du Bois, and this is
really important because I wanteverybody to understand what
that battle was really about yes, and the what it did for black
political thought at the time.
So I say that before there wasKendrick and Drake, before Jay-Z
(42:24):
and Nas, before Biggie andTupac, this beef between WEB Du
Bois and Booker T Washington,that was.
That was the original disc tape.
That was the original disc tape.
Never before in Americanhistory did we see two black
titans come out on the publicstage and go at it, yeah, and
(42:48):
put all their business out inthe street and we don't do that
right and it and it wasimportant and and I I say that
in the book because I want to,um, I want to remind us that
book because I want to.
I want to remind us that disctapes are, in fact, an important
genre in African Americanhistory.
(43:10):
It is, yes, it's the beefbetween the two figures, but
what it is those two figuresstand in for and they are
avatars for different ideologies.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
That we're not a monolith, and that's just what
I'm saying.
We are not a monolith.
Yes, and that's just what I'msaying.
We are not a monolith.
So it's not one thought.
It's such a diversity ofthought and opinions.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Malcolm and Martin all the way down.
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
And what the disc tape as a genre does, and I love
that you brought in Malcolm andMartin just another binary that
we can think about it.
What the genre does is itallows room for everyday folks
to get into the politicaldiscourse and we start having
(43:56):
these discussions in our home,in our communities.
We start beefing, but that isthe fertilizer for political
action.
So so I didn't want to minimizethat it really, it really is a
form.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
OK, it's an aesthetic , a black aesthetic.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
And what were Booker T Washington and Du Bois?
What was at the core of theirbeef?
It was over black education.
Their beef it was over blackeducation.
It was this beef.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Each one had different ideas about.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Yeah, industrial education or liberal education?
Which one was the pathway?
I do believe that both of thesemen had the same destination in
mind at the end of theirfreedom dreams for black people
they wanted us to be free,healthy, whole and
self-determined.
However, the pathway for howthey thought we should get there
were diametrically opposed andthey beefed about that
(44:57):
vehemently.
And what is important also,that I want you all to have an
open mind about when you readthis book, because folks be on
my social media, coming at my,coming at my neck, because I've
talked about some of I talkabout some of your heroes in
this book, that criticaldiscourse.
(45:20):
We need to be able to askourselves questions, to
interrogate these facets of ourpolitical history, because they
will inform us and equip us fortoday and what we know, what we
saw from these men.
Even though they beefed for theentirety of Booker T
(45:42):
Washington's life, him and DuBois continue to write each
other letters.
They continue to sit on panelswith one another yes.
So what that told me was youknow they both love black people
enough to fight it out, butstill get back in there because
they, they both knew what we'regoing.
(46:03):
So that that lesson there is.
Y'all, we can't be cancelingeach other this cancel culture.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Come on now.
Yeah, and the importance oftruth and not hiding the truth.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I listen.
Really, this book ismind-expanding.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
That's a great way to say it.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
I believe Leslie and I have been talking about AI a
lot.
It's one of the things that wefear, but we've decided to look
at it in the face and kind of.
And as I read your book andeven now hearing you kind of go
(46:50):
into it a little more deeply,I'm thinking about this time.
What are we prepared to do thistime?
What are our freedom dreams?
Speaker 2 (47:01):
this time, this time.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
And a call to action you
Speaker 2 (47:06):
know to really make those freedom dreams a reality.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
So let us remind ourselves today, like we're not
just going to do democracybecause that is a verb, we're
not going to take it for grantedand think it's something that's
just going to fall in our lapOK.
But when we do democracy there,it matters how we show up to
(47:33):
yes and we can show.
We can show up with our headsheld high, knowing that we stand
on the shoulders of ourancestors, who have assured the
relay for us generation aftergeneration after generation, and
did it with grace and aplomband love and radical freedom,
(47:54):
dreaming and politicalimagination.
So how dare we think that we'regoing to be woe is me and
wallowing in fear and analysis,paralysis and feeling
overwhelmed like there's nothingwe can do.
Perhaps today might be difficult, but I'm here to tell you that
(48:14):
there is no fascist regime inhistory that's ever lasted.
It's empirically a fact thatthese types of regimes do not
last.
So what does that tell us?
While we're the small axes fallin those big trees of
oppression, standing up everyday doing the things that we
(48:35):
need to do to take our democracyback, we also have to have a
mindset of those freedom dreamsof what comes after, a mindset
of those freedom dreams of whatcomes after.
What United States do we wantfor ourselves to live in, to be
able to grow old in for ourchildren and grandchildren, for
(48:57):
those who are not born yet ofour families?
And we have to imagine that andshow up in that form.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Okay, that's what Miss Lucy did, that's what Mary
did and Mary did, and yeah, yeah, they weren't thinking for
themselves.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yeah, that's right, okay, oh my gosh, I got chills
Girl you just gave me.
I like my eyes got a little wet.
I'm like sweating yeah, butyeah.
Like sweating yeah, but yeah,it's real.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
I appreciate the opportunity whenever I get to
talk about this.
You know, sometimes when weread books about our history
that deal especially with thisperiod of time of Jim Crow, it's
like you got to brace yourselfand gird your loins because it
was hard, it was heartbreakingand an all manner of injustice
(49:52):
and terror, and I'm notdiminishing that.
But I was also reading thearchive for hope.
I was also reading the archivefor joy, yes, you know, because
we had that too and it wasn'thard to find.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
And that's what I felt reading these early stories
about what she did, what.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Yes, yeah.
So I think that's also, and weneed those reminders because
it's easy to identify and namethe things that aren't working.
But there is so much that wasbeing done on the ground then
Our Lucys, our Marys, ourCharlotte Hawkins Browns, but
there's so much that is beingdone on the ground right now,
(50:36):
today, and we cannot lose sightof what we are doing.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
That's right.
Wow, sight of what we are doing.
That's right.
That's right.
And I'm going to bring this toa close and again talk about
legacy.
You know, even if you don'tfeel like you're the one,
because it only takes one, findorganizations, be in community
where it's already started.
It's already started and youcan join, link up, as we say
(51:08):
Jameek, you can link up withwork that is already going on
and see how you can bring yourgifts and talents to that work.
That is how this happens.
These women started schools.
They were not alone.
They had to get resources.
They were resourceful.
Be the resources.
Be, the resources to help to putthese changes that we want to
(51:30):
see in place.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
But even more than that, ange, and I think that
what's easier than that, drCorita, as an oral historian, we
just got to keep talking aboutit.
We just got to keep talkingabout it.
I mean this book, I mean wejust got to talk about it.
Hey, did you know such and such?
Let me show you.
(51:53):
Let me show you.
You ain't going to believe this.
Look at the picture.
Speaker 3 (51:57):
Look at this tree.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
We just have to keep talking about it.
Yeah, yes.
That's a part of our historytoo, and that is also a part of
our history.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
The griot part of our history where we share stories,
we pass on stories.
Yeah, we appreciate you beinghere so very much.
Yes, yes, we applaud your work.
We're here for you if there'sanything that you believe we can
do, even in the farthestreaches of your mind, if you can
(52:26):
think of anything that Leslieor I can be of service to your
work we are here for you, we arethe aunties.
We are here for you and we arejust cheering you on with
everything and keeping you inprayer, of course, oh, thank you
yes.
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
Wow, I appreciate that.
Thank you, oh, wow, appreciatethat.
And I'm like sweating, I'm likegetting tearful and what a way
to end.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
But you know why?
Because I feel it.
I feel it in my spirit, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
So I got to say this has been another episode of
Black Boomer Besties fromBrooklyn, brooklyn.
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